From london Sun Jan 15 21:43:57 1995
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (calzone.oit.unc.edu) by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP
          id AA09433; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:43:56 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id VAA09946 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:41:01 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA26446; Sun, 15 Jan 95 21:40:26 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA29141; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:36:45 -0500
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:36:45 -0500
From: Larry London <london>
Message-Id: <9501160236.AA29141@sunsite.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Permaculturists (fwd)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
In-Reply-To: <9501131536.AA23816@csrp.tamu.edu>
Organization: SunSITE, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Status: RO
X-Status: 

------- start of forwarded message -------
>From: dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu (Steven Dahlberg)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Permaculturists
Date: 13 Jan 1995 17:44:23 -0000

Hey everyone,

I just joined sanet-mg and would like to know if there are any permaculture
practitioners, enthusiasts, or even just tire kickers who would like to
talk about what's going on in there regions.

Mail me at dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu

Steve D.
dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu
CSRP
Department of Meteorology
Texas A&M University
College Station, TX 77843-3150
(409)845-0189

------- end of forwarded message -------


From london Sun Jan 15 21:44:00 1995
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (calzone.oit.unc.edu) by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP
          id AA09442; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:43:59 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id VAA09949 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:41:34 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA26456; Sun, 15 Jan 95 21:41:00 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA29395; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:37:22 -0500
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:37:22 -0500
From: Larry London <london>
Message-Id: <9501160237.AA29395@sunsite.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Native fruits, etc. (fwd)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
In-Reply-To: <9501131813.AA24638@csrp.tamu.edu>
Organization: SunSITE, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Status: O
X-Status: 

------- start of forwarded message -------
>From: dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu (Steven Dahlberg)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Native fruits, etc.
Date: 13 Jan 1995 20:00:08 -0000

O.K. so there aren't any other permaculture types out there.  How 'bout
people interested in in reviving or preserving aboriginal agricultural
practices or preserving native and heirloom fruits and nuts?  If you want
to compare ideas on these topics, let me know.

dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu

Steve D.
dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu
CSRP
Department of Meteorology
Texas A&M University
College Station, TX 77843-3150
(409)845-0189

------- end of forwarded message -------


From london Sun Jan 15 21:44:21 1995
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (calzone.oit.unc.edu) by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP
          id AA09465; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:44:19 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id VAA09952 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:42:07 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA26461; Sun, 15 Jan 95 21:41:33 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA29616; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:37:55 -0500
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:37:55 -0500
From: Larry London <london>
Message-Id: <9501160237.AA29616@sunsite.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Synergistic Agriculture workshop in Arkansas (fwd)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
In-Reply-To: <m0rSq8N-0000rLC@ncatfyv.uark.edu>
Organization: SunSITE, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Status: O
X-Status: 

------- start of forwarded message -------
>From: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Steve Diver)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Synergistic Agriculture workshop in Arkansas
Date: 13 Jan 1995 20:09:41 -0000

FYI, here's an announcement from a non-profit in my region:  


       "Synergistic Agriculture: A New Way to Garden"

Emilia Hazelip, lecturer and permaculture consultant for the
gardens of Les Courmettes in France, will be offering a
course on Synergistic Agriculture at Meadowcreek
environmental education center on Feb. 4-5, 1995, as part of
her U.S. teaching tour.  

Ms. Hazelip has studied extensively the agriculture systems
of the Mayas of Mexico, the Berbers of North Africa, and the
"natural farming" methods of renowned Japanese farmer and
author Masanobu Fukuoka.  

A farmer who has rejected the plow, Ms. Hazelip has spent
the last 15 years developing a system of soil self-fertility
by using a broad diversity of plant materials (vegetables,
cereals, and fruits) without the use of legumes on permanently 
mulched non-tilled ground. 

Ms. Hazelip's 15 hour class at Meadowcreek will include such
topics as the principles of synergistic agriculture, soil
self-fertility, erosion control and soil improvement
strategies, methods for crop production in an uncultivated
soil, permaculture basics, composting made easy, and the
integration and care of bees, poultry, and other species
into a growing system.  The ideas presented are applicable
for both home gardeners and commercial growers.  

The class fee is $145 and includes lodging and meals. 
Contact Megan Hughes or Kellie French at Meadowcreek for
more details and a registration packet at 501-363-4500.

Meadowcreek is a non-profit organization located in Stone
County, Arkansas, offering classes and workshops in
renewable energy and sustainable agriculture.  


------- end of forwarded message -------


From london Sun Jan 15 21:53:09 1995
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (calzone.oit.unc.edu) by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP
          id AA09799; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:53:08 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id VAA10073 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:50:53 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA26525; Sun, 15 Jan 95 21:50:19 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA02674; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:46:41 -0500
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:46:41 -0500
From: Larry London <london>
Message-Id: <9501160246.AA02674@sunsite.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Twine in the Baler (fwd)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
In-Reply-To: <m0rTHKc-0000rIC@ncatfyv.uark.edu>
Organization: SunSITE, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Status: O
X-Status: 

------- start of forwarded message -------
>From: bobw@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Bob Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Twine in the Baler
Date: 15 Jan 1995 00:44:11 -0000


     One of my favorite writers has been, and continues to be,
David Orr at Oberlin College in Ohio.  In a recent issue of
_Conservation_Biology_ (Vol. 8, No. 4, Dec. 1994), Dr. Orr offered
an essay entitled "Twine in the Baler" that explored some valid
concerns of "Sustainability".  He observed that "The subject of
sustainability has become a growth industry", and reminded us
that, as in politics, people or institutions frequently assume the
cloak of sustainability "... often not to solve problems but only
to appear as if doing so".

     Dr. Orr then goes on to offer some suggestions as to how we
could get serious about sustainability.  These include:

     1.  ".. raising difficult and unpolitic questions about the
     domination of the economy by large corporations and their
     present immunity from effective public control.
     2.  ".. a radical reconsideration of the present laissez
     faire direction of technology.
     3.  ".. a considerable change in how we think about our
     responsibilities as citizens."

     What he is talking about is how we - as mentors, teachers,
and role models of sustainability - need to work harder to change
our laws, change our methods of assessing both old and new
technologies, and to change our social priorities of moral thought
and responsibility.  He urges us to expand our ".. perception of
self-interests to include our membership in the large enterprise
of life over a longer sweep of time and doing so with all the
emotionally driven rationality we can muster".  He closes the
essay with the gentle admonishment that we, as teachers, mentors,
and role models of sustainability, need to know what it is we
stand for - and to communicate that conviction more convincingly.

     If you value the word "sustainable" placed out there in front
of your particular discipline - be it agriculture, development,
forestry, or ecosystem management - you would do well to read
Orr's essay and to consider doing more than just filing it away.

_________________________________________________________________
Bob Wilson    
bobw@ncatfyv.uark.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Any opinions expressed above belong solely to the author.
------- end of forwarded message -------


From london Sun Jan 15 21:54:28 1995
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (calzone.oit.unc.edu) by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP
          id AA09868; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:54:27 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id VAA10092 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:52:07 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA26536; Sun, 15 Jan 95 21:51:33 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA03109; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:47:55 -0500
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:47:55 -0500
From: Larry London <london>
Message-Id: <9501160247.AA03109@sunsite.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Synergistic Agriculture workshop in Arkansas (fwd)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
In-Reply-To: <m0rSq8N-0000rLC@ncatfyv.uark.edu>
Organization: SunSITE, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Status: O
X-Status: 

------- start of forwarded message -------
>From: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Steve Diver)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Synergistic Agriculture workshop in Arkansas
Date: 13 Jan 1995 20:09:41 -0000


FYI, here's an announcement from a non-profit in my region:  


       "Synergistic Agriculture: A New Way to Garden"

Emilia Hazelip, lecturer and permaculture consultant for the
gardens of Les Courmettes in France, will be offering a
course on Synergistic Agriculture at Meadowcreek
environmental education center on Feb. 4-5, 1995, as part of
her U.S. teaching tour.  

Ms. Hazelip has studied extensively the agriculture systems
of the Mayas of Mexico, the Berbers of North Africa, and the
"natural farming" methods of renowned Japanese farmer and
author Masanobu Fukuoka.  

A farmer who has rejected the plow, Ms. Hazelip has spent
the last 15 years developing a system of soil self-fertility
by using a broad diversity of plant materials (vegetables,
cereals, and fruits) without the use of legumes on permanently 
mulched non-tilled ground. 

Ms. Hazelip's 15 hour class at Meadowcreek will include such
topics as the principles of synergistic agriculture, soil
self-fertility, erosion control and soil improvement
strategies, methods for crop production in an uncultivated
soil, permaculture basics, composting made easy, and the
integration and care of bees, poultry, and other species
into a growing system.  The ideas presented are applicable
for both home gardeners and commercial growers.  

The class fee is $145 and includes lodging and meals. 
Contact Megan Hughes or Kellie French at Meadowcreek for
more details and a registration packet at 501-363-4500.

Meadowcreek is a non-profit organization located in Stone
County, Arkansas, offering classes and workshops in
renewable energy and sustainable agriculture.  


------- end of forwarded message -------


From london Tue Jan 17 10:25:14 1995
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (calzone.oit.unc.edu) by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP
          id AA03212; Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:25:13 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id KAA22893 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:19:21 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA17672; Tue, 17 Jan 95 10:18:48 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA15034; Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:15:01 -0500
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:15:01 -0500
From: Larry London <london>
Message-Id: <9501171515.AA15034@sunsite.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculturists (fwd)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
In-Reply-To: <3fecdv$559@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <9501131536.AA23816@csrp.tamu.edu>
Organization: SunSITE, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Status: RO
X-Status: 

------- start of forwarded message -------
>From: cyronwode@aol.com (Cyronwode)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Re: Permaculturists
Date: 16 Jan 1995 13:03:43 -0500

>I just joined sanet-mg and would like to know if there are any permaculture
>practitioners, enthusiasts, or even just tire kickers who would like to
>talk about what's going on in there regions.

>Steve D.
>dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu

Hello -- i'm a permie tire-kicker. You gonna take Mollison and Pittman's
Permaculture Design Course at Fossile Rim (Glen Rose, Texas) this spring?
It's a 2-week deal, all meals and accomodaytions included. call (817)
897-2960 or fax (817) 897-3785.

There will also be a 2nd 2-week PDC at La Tierra, in Sebastopol,
Califnornia, also taught by Mollison and Pittman, in May. For info on that
one, call (707) 829-8348. I intend to attend that one if i can.

catherine yronwode
forestville, california
------- end of forwarded message -------


From london@sunsite.unc.edu Tue Jan 17 10:23:06 1995
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by mailgate.prod.aol.net with ESMTP
	(1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA096586186; Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:23:06 -0500
Return-Path: <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id KAA22893 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:19:21 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA17672; Tue, 17 Jan 95 10:18:48 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA15034; Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:15:01 -0500
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:15:01 -0500
From: Larry London <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Message-Id: <9501171515.AA15034@sunsite.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculturists (fwd)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
In-Reply-To: <3fecdv$559@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <9501131536.AA23816@csrp.tamu.edu>
Organization: SunSITE, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Status: RO
X-Status: 

------- start of forwarded message -------
>From: cyronwode@aol.com (Cyronwode)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Re: Permaculturists
Date: 16 Jan 1995 13:03:43 -0500

>I just joined sanet-mg and would like to know if there are any permaculture
>practitioners, enthusiasts, or even just tire kickers who would like to
>talk about what's going on in there regions.

>Steve D.
>dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu

Hello -- i'm a permie tire-kicker. You gonna take Mollison and Pittman's
Permaculture Design Course at Fossile Rim (Glen Rose, Texas) this spring?
It's a 2-week deal, all meals and accomodaytions included. call (817)
897-2960 or fax (817) 897-3785.

There will also be a 2nd 2-week PDC at La Tierra, in Sebastopol,
Califnornia, also taught by Mollison and Pittman, in May. For info on that
one, call (707) 829-8348. I intend to attend that one if i can.

catherine yronwode
forestville, california
------- end of forwarded message -------


From dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu Thu Jan 19 10:11 EST 1995
Return-Path: <dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu>
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA13654; Thu, 19 Jan 1995 10:10:57 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id KAA26430 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Thu, 19 Jan 1995 10:13:54 -0500
Received: from csrp.tamu.edu by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA07295; Thu, 19 Jan 95 10:13:21 EST
Received: from CSRP16.TAMU.EDU by csrp.tamu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03)
          id AA27632; Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:15:48 -0600
Message-Id: <9501191515.AA27632@csrp.tamu.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 08:14:54 -0600
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
From: dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu (Steven Dahlberg)
Subject: Folks in the Upper Midwest
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 527
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hey Permaculture enthusiasts,

I just joined the list and would like to find out if there are people in
the upper midwest, i.e the Dakotas, MN, WI, MI, who are interested in
Permaculture and would be interested in organizing to cooperate and support
each other in our efforts.  I am currently living in Texas, but hope to
return to MN this summer.  Anyhow, let me know at dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu.

Steve D.
dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu
CSRP
Department of Meteorology
Texas A&M University
College Station, TX 77843-3150
(409)845-0189


From wolfe!sunsite.unc.edu!london Sun Jan 15 19:16:28 1995
Received: from wolfe by zadallv.zadall.com id aa11837; 15 Jan 95 19:16 PST
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by wolfe.wimsey.com with smtp
	(Smail3.1.28.1 #31) id m0rThU2-0006m1C; Sun, 15 Jan 95 18:47 PST
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id VAA09946 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:41:01 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA26446; Sun, 15 Jan 95 21:40:26 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA29141; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:36:45 -0500
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:36:45 -0500
From: Larry London <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Message-Id: <9501160236.AA29141@sunsite.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Permaculturists (fwd)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
In-Reply-To: <9501131536.AA23816@csrp.tamu.edu>
Organization: SunSITE, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Status: RO
X-Status: 

------- start of forwarded message -------
>From: dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu (Steven Dahlberg)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Permaculturists
Date: 13 Jan 1995 17:44:23 -0000

Hey everyone,

I just joined sanet-mg and would like to know if there are any permaculture
practitioners, enthusiasts, or even just tire kickers who would like to
talk about what's going on in there regions.

Mail me at dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu

Steve D.
dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu
CSRP
Department of Meteorology
Texas A&M University
College Station, TX 77843-3150
(409)845-0189

------- end of forwarded message -------

--end of included mail message--

Hmm - I just noticed something that is normally hidden when I look at
my mail messages in elm - and that is that this message seems to have
been intended for a Usenet group alt.sustainable.agriculture, as well
as to permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu.  Somesort of gateway thing
happening? 

> If I can locate the right ID I can manually unsubscribe you.
> 
> Lawrence
> mental antennae extended full length and waiting for vibes

Here's hoping - and thanks for trying!!

Melanie Arabsky, Zadall Systems Group - Burnaby, BC      mel@zadall.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Swimming in a stinking sea of lamality" - The Lame List

From london@sunsite.unc.edu Tue Jan 17 10:23:06 1995
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by mailgate.prod.aol.net with ESMTP
	(1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA096586186; Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:23:06 -0500
Return-Path: <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id KAA22893 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:19:21 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA17672; Tue, 17 Jan 95 10:18:48 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA15034; Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:15:01 -0500
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:15:01 -0500
From: Larry London <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Message-Id: <9501171515.AA15034@sunsite.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculturists (fwd)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
In-Reply-To: <3fecdv$559@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <9501131536.AA23816@csrp.tamu.edu>
Organization: SunSITE, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Status: RO
X-Status: 

------- start of forwarded message -------
>From: cyronwode@aol.com (Cyronwode)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Re: Permaculturists
Date: 16 Jan 1995 13:03:43 -0500

>I just joined sanet-mg and would like to know if there are any permaculture
>practitioners, enthusiasts, or even just tire kickers who would like to
>talk about what's going on in there regions.

>Steve D.
>dahlberg@csrp.tamu.edu

Hello -- i'm a permie tire-kicker. You gonna take Mollison and Pittman's
Permaculture Design Course at Fossile Rim (Glen Rose, Texas) this spring?
It's a 2-week deal, all meals and accomodaytions included. call (817)
897-2960 or fax (817) 897-3785.

There will also be a 2nd 2-week PDC at La Tierra, in Sebastopol,
Califnornia, also taught by Mollison and Pittman, in May. For info on that
one, call (707) 829-8348. I intend to attend that one if i can.

catherine yronwode
forestville, california
------- end of forwarded message -------


From steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu Mon Jan 23 09:58 EST 1995
Return-Path: <steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu>
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA19568; Mon, 23 Jan 1995 09:58:44 -0500
Received: from twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu (twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.21]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with ESMTP id KAA15559 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Mon, 23 Jan 1995 10:00:40 -0500
Received: from ncatfyv.uark.edu (ncatfyv.uark.edu [130.184.41.151]) by twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id KAA16316 for <permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu>; Mon, 23 Jan 1995 10:02:18 -0500
Received: by ncatfyv.uark.edu (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.23)
	id <m0rWQ76-0001AvC@ncatfyv.uark.edu>; Mon, 23 Jan 95 08:51 CST
Message-Id: <m0rWQ76-0001AvC@ncatfyv.uark.edu>
From: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Steve Diver)
Subject: PERMA-CD-ROM (fwd)
To: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 08:51:23 -0600 (CST)
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2433
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Forwarded message:
> From xsafox.slip.cc.uq.oz.au!afox Mon Jan 23 01:02:12 1995
> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 17:14:37 +1000
> From: Tony Fox <afox@deakin.edu.au>
> Subject: PERMA-CD-ROM
> To: agroforestry@net.bio.net
> CC: pferraro@bud.peinet.pe.ca, s.mason11@genie.geis.com,
>         bromage@mdw010.cc.monash.edu.au, cas@muffin.pronet.com,
>         ghegyes@nalusda.gov, steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu
> X-Mailer: LeeMail 2.0.4
> Message-Id: <AB49947F@xsafox.slip.cc.uq.oz.au.>
> 
> ANNOUNCE. *PERMACULTURE CD ROM*
> 
> The Australian group -IMAGIC- in conjunction with several Multimedia 
> artists are currently putting together a CD ROM based on the book 
> "Permaculture - a Designer's Manual" by acclaimed author "Bill Mollison". 
> At present my task is to source interested parties on the internet who 
> might express their own use of such a product, and suggest additions 
> which might be added to the CD ROM to make it an educationally and 
> informative end production. 
> 
> INFO:  PERMACULTURE the CD ROM

> This CD is about Sustainable Development and The Content/Subject is the 
> Permaculture Design Manual Internationally recognised by Academics and 
> Educational institutions around the world not only is it a Sound 
> philosophy but it also well respected and acknowledged with which to 
> turn around the destructive trends threatening Environment.  The CD 
> will consist of a Hybrid Disk Suitable for IBM Compatibles (80 % Market 
> share)/Macintosh (20 % Market share). It will include Graphic 
> representations of permaculture concepts as well as video and sound.
> 
> Please forward this post onto any other people you may know who are 
> involved in Permaculture, Aquaculture, etc. The more feedback we can 
> receive about this project, the better we can gauge the needs and wants 
> of Permaculture educators and students, thus making it a useful archive 
> and resource for many years to come.
> 
> Please Forward any responses to afox@deakin.edu.au
> 
> 
> Thanks for your time
> Regards
> TONY FOX
> Information consultant
> 
> =================================TONY FOX=================================
>  \ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/
>  /\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \/\ \
> / /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\/ /\ \
> ============================afox@deakin.edu.au============================


From london@sunsite.unc.edu Thu Jan 26 14:18 EST 1995
Return-Path: <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA25709; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:18:07 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id OAA05756 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:20:06 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA14605; Thu, 26 Jan 95 14:16:21 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA24868; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:16:02 -0500
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:16:02 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Intentional Prairies (fwd)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950126141547.23731B-100000@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Length: 2411
Status: O
X-Status: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:34:27 -0800
>From: Tom Hodges (moderated newsgroup) <sustag@BETA.TRICITY.WSU.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list SUSTAG-L
     <SUSTAG-L%WSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Intentional Prairies (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 08:02:30 CST
>From: Frank Kutka <fkutka@sage.nrri.umn.edu>
To: sustag@beta.tricity.wsu.edu
Subject: Intentional Prairies

Greetings all!

I am one of the SA folks who believes that agriculture can only be truly
sustainable within the context of healthy land as a whole (see Aldo
Leopold's writings).  Because of this "bias" and the gradual diminishment
of our forests in the Midwest due to "sustainable forestry" (continued wood
output accompanied by reductions in species diversity and soil condition),
last year at this time I floated the idea of making paper from prairie
plants.  The prairie region of the US (and Europe also?) is largely in
ruins.  If useable products could be made from restored prairies we could
improve the environment in the prairie regions, preserve more forests, and
still meet fiber needs (or more properly, desires).  Here are a few more
thoughts for possible products from intentional prairies.

Grains: this was originally proposed by another of my heroes, Wes Jackson
of the Land Institute in Salina, KS.  I believe that they are coming along
in developing their perennial grain prairie but are under funded (though
there seems to be plenty of $$ in the world to study another Monsanto or
Dow product isn't there)

Building products: fiber boards and straw bale construction, insulation

Silage: this would require some research and careful timing, but it seems
reasonable to assume that 2-4 tons per acre of high quality silage could be
chopped off in a once per annum harvest.  This would be great considering
no replanting and no soil erosion!

Others?

I am looking for constructive comments and discussion.  There are many
issues involved here and this could be fun and possibly useful in the long
run.  Also, are there any other researchers out there who see worthwhile
possibilities in this approach?  Lets talk!

Peace,


Frank J. Kutka, part-time Junior Scientist and farmer

(218) 720-4262          fkutka@sage.nrri.umn.edu

University of Minnesota
Natural Resources Research Institue
5013 Miller Trunk Highway
Duluth MN 55811
USA


From london@sunsite.unc.edu Thu Jan 26 14:19 EST 1995
Return-Path: <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA26105; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:19:02 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id OAA05765 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:22:07 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA14645; Thu, 26 Jan 95 14:18:20 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA25678; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:18:02 -0500
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:18:01 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Intro and prairie thoughts (fwd)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950126141745.23731C-100000@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Length: 2992
Status: O
X-Status: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:54:40 -0800
>From: Tom Hodges (moderated newsgroup) <sustag@BETA.TRICITY.WSU.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list SUSTAG-L
     <SUSTAG-L%WSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Intro and prairie thoughts (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 12:21:11 -0500
>From: Bob Engelman <re@popact.org>
To: SUSTAG@beta.tricity.wsu.edu
Subject: Intro and prairie thoughts

        This is mostly to comment on a posting from Frank J. Kutka on
making use of prairies, but I'll also take advantage of it to introduce
myself.

        I direct a program on population and the environment for a
Washington-based research and advocacy organization, Population Action
International. The group's mission is to help solve one of the world's most
intractable long-term problems, ongoing population growth, through
empowering individuals to take control of their own lives, especially in
the area of women and reproductive health. The evidence is solid that women
who have education, reasonable health care and access to safe voluntary
family planning services tend to delay first childbirths, space their
pregnancies over time, and have fewer children. All of these together have
a powerful effect on slowing population growth. Researching how all this
relates to the environment and sustainable development is what our program
does.

         We have just finished a report on the linkages among population,
arable land availability and sustainable food production that involved me
deeply in the fascinating and important issues discussed in this forum. It
helps also that I am a long time gardener and composter, am involved with
Community Supported Agriculture in the Washington, D.C. area, and come from
a long line of farmers. My late father, born on a farm near Des Moines,
Iowa, was a career ag economist with USDA. So I have the soil in my blood,
and find the issue of sustainable agriculture one of the most compelling in
the environmental and population fields.

        Now, back to Mr. Kutka's idea of practical uses of prairies. Seems
to me that prairies are in many ways gigantic solar collectors and carbon
processors. I would like to see more research on and discussion of biomass
fuels, the use of which shouldn't add carbon dioxide to the atmosphere
assuming no fossil fuels are used in their harvesting and processing
(admittedly a big assumption). Prairies could actually take carbon dioxide
out of the air if their biomass was collected, composted (with other
materials) and used to restore degraded soils on farms and in forests. It
would be important, of course, to harvest this biomass at sustainable
levels, so that the soils under the prairies did not become further
degraded in the process.

        I look forward to more discussion on these and related topics in
this forum. Thanks are owed to Tom Hodges, our moderator.

Bob Engelman
Population Action International
Washington, DC


From london@sunsite.unc.edu Sat Jan 28 13:03 EST 1995
Return-Path: <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA03222; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 13:03:53 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id NAA27961 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 13:07:04 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA10202; Sat, 28 Jan 95 13:03:04 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA02836; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 13:02:47 -0500
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 13:02:46 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: PERMA-CD-ROM (fwd)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950128125858.1702A-100000@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Length: 1950
Status: O
X-Status: 


Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:42:18 -0100
>From: Pascal A. Dupuis <dupuis@lei.ucl.ac.be>
To: agaccess@igc.apc.org, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, soils-l@unl.edu,
    tforster@igc.apc.org, klawrence@igc.apc.org, agmodels-l@unl.edu,
    arthur@igc.apc.org, ruraldev@ksuvm.edu, sardbb-l@undp.org,
    sustag@beta.tricity.wsu.edu
Subject: PERMA-CD-ROM (fwd)

 ANNOUNCE. *PERMACULTURE CD ROM*

 The Australian group -IMAGIC- in conjunction with several Multimedia
 artists are currently putting together a CD ROM based on the book
 "Permaculture - a Designer's Manual" by acclaimed author "Bill Mollison".
 At present my task is to source interested parties on the internet who
 might express their own use of such a product, and suggest additions
 which might be added to the CD ROM to make it an educationally and
 informative end production.

 INFO:  PERMACULTURE the CD ROM

 This CD is about Sustainable Development and The Content/Subject is the
 Permaculture Design Manual Internationally recognised by Academics and
 Educational institutions around the world not only is it a Sound
 philosophy but it also well respected and acknowledged with which to
 turn around the destructive trends threatening Environment.  The CD
 will consist of a Hybrid Disk Suitable for IBM Compatibles (80 % Market
 share)/Macintosh (20 % Market share). It will include Graphic
 representations of permaculture concepts as well as video and sound.

 Please forward this post onto any other people you may know who are
 involved in Permaculture, Aquaculture, etc. The more feedback we can
 receive about this project, the better we can gauge the needs and wants
 of Permaculture educators and students, thus making it a useful archive
 and resource for many years to come.

 Please Forward any responses to afox@deakin.edu.au


 Thanks for your time
 Regards
 TONY FOX
 Information consultant

TONY FOX
afox@deakin.edu.au


-
dupuis@lei.ucl.ac.be;  dupuis@venus.fsa.ucl.ac.be 



From vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au  Wed Feb  1 19:51:57 1995
Return-Path: <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Received: from prime.eepo.com.au ([203.5.184.1]) by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA24033; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 19:51:57 -0500
Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA01120 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 09:01:06 +0800
Received: from daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa27828;
          2 Feb 95 8:27 WST
Received:  by daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.12b);
           Wed, 01 Feb 1995 12:38:12 WST
X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 12:38:09 WST
Reply-To: victor.guest@eepo.com.au
From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Message-Id: <2f2f1035.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.com.au>
Subject: 1996 International Permaculture Convergence.
content-length: 2172
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Friends

PAWA the Permaculture Association of Western Australia is all set to
host the 1996 International Permaculture Convergence.

The Address for enquirys' is convergence@eepo.com.au or 
convergence-1996@eepo.com.au.

The time is September/October which is the time our wildflowers are at their
best.

People coming to the convergence/conference are asked to reply as early as 
possible to help us decide on the choice of venue and on catering etc.

Please indicate if you are likely to bring family, numbers, boys/girls
ages etc.

Tours of our vast state, are expected to be organised before during and 
after the convergence, so if you are interested in a tour of a specific 
aspect this information will be valuable in planning.

If you would like to present a paper at the conference, and would like to
submit an outline of that paper, expressions of interest will be registered 
with the convenor, at the above address.

We intend to have an EXPO, and if you would like space reserved for an 
exhibition, please indicate the approximate size you need.  

The celebration at the end of the convergence will give you the opportunity
to entertain us so please let us know if we can reserve time for your item.

  ---------------------------cut-----------------------------

To: convergence-1996@eepo.com.au.
Cc: 
Subject: 1996 International Permaculture Convergence.

                 Expression of Interest

Name:
 
Address:


Telephone:
Fax      :
Email    :

Paper:    Y/n.     Subject:

Accomodation:  Y/n             Any special needs:

Dietry Needs: 

Children:  girls    ages           boys       ages

Tours:  Y/n        Interests:                    

Expo: Please reserve some space. Y/n  Appprox size:

I am interested in entertaining at the Celebration: Y/n 

COMMENTS:






________________________________cut______________________________

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6026
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From london@sunsite.unc.edu  Wed Feb  1 22:56:46 1995
Return-Path: <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA17692; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:56:46 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id WAA02038 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:58:47 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA14073; Wed, 1 Feb 95 22:54:30 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA11362; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:11:19 -0500
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:11:18 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: 1996 International Permaculture Convergence. (fwd)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950201211045.6890A-100000@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
content-length: 2437
Status: RO
X-Status: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 12:38:09 WST
>From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
To: london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.com.au>
Subject: 1996 International Permaculture Convergence.


Friends

PAWA the Permaculture Association of Western Australia is all set to
host the 1996 International Permaculture Convergence.

The Address for enquirys' is convergence@eepo.com.au or 
convergence-1996@eepo.com.au.

The time is September/October which is the time our wildflowers are at their
best.

People coming to the convergence/conference are asked to reply as early as 
possible to help us decide on the choice of venue and on catering etc.

Please indicate if you are likely to bring family, numbers, boys/girls
ages etc.

Tours of our vast state, are expected to be organised before during and 
after the convergence, so if you are interested in a tour of a specific 
aspect this information will be valuable in planning.

If you would like to present a paper at the conference, and would like to
submit an outline of that paper, expressions of interest will be registered 
with the convenor, at the above address.

We intend to have an EXPO, and if you would like space reserved for an 
exhibition, please indicate the approximate size you need.  

The celebration at the end of the convergence will give you the opportunity
to entertain us so please let us know if we can reserve time for your item.

  ---------------------------cut-----------------------------

To: convergence-1996@eepo.com.au.
Cc: 
Subject: 1996 International Permaculture Convergence.

                 Expression of Interest

Name:
 
Address:


Telephone:
Fax      :
Email    :

Paper:    Y/n.     Subject:

Accomodation:  Y/n             Any special needs:

Dietry Needs: 

Children:  girls    ages           boys       ages

Tours:  Y/n        Interests:                    

Expo: Please reserve some space. Y/n  Appprox size:

I am interested in entertaining at the Celebration: Y/n 

COMMENTS:






________________________________cut______________________________

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6026
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu  Mon Feb  6 09:28:59 1995
Return-Path: <steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu>
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA08522; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 09:28:59 -0500
Received: from twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu (twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.21]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with ESMTP id JAA26256 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 09:31:16 -0500
Received: from ncatfyv.uark.edu (ncatfyv.uark.edu [130.184.41.151]) by twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id JAA27787 for <permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu>; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 09:33:04 -0500
Received: by ncatfyv.uark.edu (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.23)
	id <m0rbURf-0000tPC@ncatfyv.uark.edu>; Mon, 6 Feb 95 08:29 CST
Message-Id: <m0rbURf-0000tPC@ncatfyv.uark.edu>
From: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Steve Diver)
Subject: Summary/Use of Eucalyptus in Reforestation Projects (fwd)
To: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:29:38 -0600 (CST)
Content-Type: text
content-length: 21481
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Permies,
   Eucalyptus ain't hardy in most of the U.S. temperate
zone, but in many parts of the world the question arises as 
to whether eucalyptus is appropriate in a particular permaculture 
design.  Here's some insights on the advantages and disadvantages of
eucalyptus FYI from Devel-L. 
   

Forwarded message:
> From UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU!LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU!owner-devel-l Fri Feb  3 21:54:34 1995
> X-Sender: m940219m@sunspot.eds.ecip.nagoya-u.ac.jp
> X-Mailer: Eudora-J(1.3.3J7)
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
> Message-ID:  <9502040326.AA25619@sunspot.eds.ecip.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
> Date:         Sat, 4 Feb 1995 12:30:49 +0900
> Reply-To:     Ana Paula <m940219m@EDS.ECIP.NAGOYA-U.AC.JP>
> Sender:       Technology Transfer in International Development
>               <DEVEL-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU>
> From:         Ana Paula <m940219m@EDS.ECIP.NAGOYA-U.AC.JP>
> Subject:      Summary/Use of Eucalyptus in Reforestation Projects
> X-To:         DEVEL-L@AMERICAN.EDU
> To:           Multiple recipients of list DEVEL-L
>               <DEVEL-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU>
> 
> Introduction
> 
> The number of answers received was 33.  Among the messages received, many
> demonstrated interest in reading a summary. Some people also  demonstrated
> interest in knowing who else is working with this topic.  Therefore the
> information received was structured into 7 items and a number of opinions
> are reproduced in the text.
> 
> Please accept  my  apologies for  not  being able to mention the
> institutional affiliations of all those cited in the text.  Unfortunately
> many of those who sent the messages did not mention their institutions.
> Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused.
> 
> Please notice that this discussion was proposed to the members of
> ENVIRONMENT IN LATIN AMERICA NETWORK (ELAN) and TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER IN
> DEVELOPMENT (DEVEL-L). This summary is being sent to both lists.  Sorry for
> the inconvenience of cross-posting if you subscribe to both lists.
> 
> Respecting the privacy of all the electronic addresses received, it was
> decided not to mention them in the text. Considering that all those cited
> probably subscribe one of the lists it is believed that all of them can be
> reached through the lists ELAN or DEVEL-L.
> 
> I was also asked to give comments about our view now; compared to before
> the question was posted in the Internet. Thus it is worthy acknowledging on
> behalf of my study group the educational validity of being able to have
> such a discussion through the list.  Since we do not have a background in
> areas related to the topic, the messages honestly achieved the purpose of
> educating us and incited our curiosity to learn more.
> 
> Finally, I would like to acknowledge the special contribution of the
> Professors JoAnn Jaffe, Mong-Shing Sim and Gebrekiduce Mekonnen for their
> kindly comments when examining this summary before being posted to the list
> in order to certify the quality of the same.  Professor Gene Wengert was
> also very kind in forwarding my inquiry to other institutions and
> contacting professionals in the area.
> 
> Thanks very much indeed to all those who contributed to this work.
> Ana Paula Lordello
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> SUMMARY OF IDEAS - REFORESTATION WITH EUCALYPTUS
> 
> The question proposed was:
> "WHICH ARE THE ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES
> OF THE USE OF EUCALYPTUS IN REFORESTATION PROJECTS"
> 
> STRUCTURE OF THIS SUMMARY:
> 1. Reexamining the discussion's proposal.
> 2. Reforestation for commercial purposes.
> 3. Reforestation for social forestry purposes.
> 4. Scientific Information on Reforestation
> 5. Relate of people's experiences with reforestation projects and
> Eucalyptus (Africa, Asia, Latin America, USA) and scientific information
> 6. Acknowledgment
> 7. Scholars researching the topic
> 8. Suggested Bibliography
> 
> 
> 
> 1. REEXAMINING THE DISCUSSION'S PROPOSAL
> 
> Prof. Gebrekiduce Mekonnen, from Ottawa, Canada:
> observes that the point of the discussion is wrong.
> It should be: "Which needs does eucalyptus meet or does not meet" or "Which
> qualities make eucalyptus more or less attractive to plant in an area."
> 
> Dante Mossi, from Honduras, is a student from Vanderbilt University.  He
> adds that the point of the discussion should be centered more on the demand
> side of the projects. (Thus one can only tell the advantages and
> disadvantages observing the purpose of the project.)
> 
> Prof. Gebrekiduce Mekonnen highlights the two basic objectives of a
> reforestation projects:
> 1) Commercial purposes (the market needs will dictate the choice for which
> species to plant)
> 2) Social forestry purposes (the use of eucalyptus will be right or wrong
> depending on the long term and short term needs of the site and the local
> community).
> 
> 
> 2. REFORESTATION  FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES
> 
> Prof. Bob Schee sent an example of the advantages and disadvantages from a
> commercial viewpoint:
> 1) advantages:
> - some species of eucalyptus are extreme combustible
> - the tree has a high heat generating capacity
> (thus it can be used as a source for urban fireplaces, saving the native
> oak woodlands.  Because of these qualities, eucalyptus is increasingly
> being sought and used as wood for fireplaces in California).
> 
> 2) disadvantages:
> - because of its extreme combustibility and its high heat generating
> capacity, if planted in dry regions can provoke fire. (Example:  the
> firestorm in the East San Francisco bay hills a few years ago was fueled
> greatly by eucalyptus.)
> 
> Professor Axel Ringe elucidates some points to ponder about short and long
> term goals : "the problem of eucalyptus grown outside of its native habitat
> is that by doing so you create a biological desert.  The only animals
> capable of using eucalyptus "products" are koalas.  The fast growth of the
> trees ensures that other plants are out competed and die off.  This may be
> advantageous to the economic interests looking at the short-term
> profitability of the land, but is extremely disadvantageous to long-term
> sustainability and habitability of the land, both to the native flora and
> fauna and to the people of the area."
> 
> 
> 
> 3. REFORESTATION FOR SOCIAL FORESTRY PURPOSES
> 
> Prof. Kerry Miller explains that reforestation programmes using eucalyptus
> take the risk of interrupting the forage of local people who depended
> heavily on the native environment. His point of view is that "a eucalyptus
> monoculture in particular makes sense only from a very specific,
> exploitationist point of view."
> 
> Professor Peter Neitlich (Department of Botany, Oregon State University)
> was a reforestation volunteer and trainer for Peace Corps in West Africa
> (Niger) from 1987-1991. He observes that "reforestation efforts should
> attempt to be synonymous with natural community restoration."
> 
> Professor Dhon Sewatarmra, from Thailand, is now at George Washington
> University, in the area of International Development/Anthropology.  He
> amended that when dealing with reforestation with eucalyptus, it is
> important to be aware of its impacts on human and environment
> (biodiversity), which are greater and more difficult to deal with in the
> long run.
> 
> Prof. Dhon Sewatarmra also worked in development fields with the UN, PACT
> (US. NGO) and some German groups covering Southeast and South Asia.  He
> pictures the issue of social reforestation: "in Thailand eucalyptus is
> quite an issue of controversy.  Eucalyptus is not completely bad... yes, it
> does grow well in Australia and perhaps some part of the world, however,
> not in the rain forest. The social issues here are how people in that are
> live on.  Food, medicine, firewood and handicraft work are the sources of
> living, which only the rain forest can provide.  It is true that some of
> the eucalyptus plantation project would occupy the "degraded" land.
> However, this is not a good excuse to grow eucalyptus.  Instead, the
> degraded land deserves a revitalized program such as the organic
> development and of course it takes time (as well as it takes time to be
> degraded)."
> 
> 
> 
> 4. SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION ON REFORESTATION
> 
> Prof. Kerry Miller and Prof. Dhon Sewatarmra point out the danger of
> replacing an ecosystem with a monoculture.
> 
> The topic is summarized by Professor Tom Ashwood, from the Environmental
> Sciences Division of the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Tennessee, USA:
> "Reforestation with any single species is less than desirable for at least
> three reasons:
> (1) monocultures (single species plantings) offer much poorer habitat for
> other species of plants and animals because of a lack of diversity;
> (2) monocultures do not provide for development of soils the way a more
> diverse reforestation scheme would;
> (3) if a disease strikes a monoculture, most or all of the plants will be
> lost, whereas in a diverse forest, some plants will survive (this is true
> for parasites as well as disease)."
> 
> Prof. Tom Ashwood concludes by saying that "a reforestation projection will
> benefit from careful planning using multiple species that are chosen to
> match the local climate, hydrology, and especially soil condition."
> 
> 
> 
> 5. RELATE OF PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCES WITH REFORESTATION PROJECTS WITH
> EUCALYPTUS (AND SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION)
> 
> 
> 
> AFRICA
> 
> 
> NIGER
> During the time Professor Peter Neitlich worked as a volunteer in
> reforestation projects in West Africa, eucalyptus were used for
> reforestation but he observed good reasons why these species should not be
> used. His experience there enables him to conclude that "reforestation
> efforts should attempt to be synonymous with natural community restoration"
> His explanation is as follows:
> 
> "1. Eucalyptus is native only in Australia.  Elsewhere it is exotic.
> Planting of Eucalyptus offers little benefit to the following groups which
> WOULD benefit from native species:
> a. animal needing forage
> b. epiphytes
> c. insect populations which form the basis of avian and other food webs.
> 
> 2. Eucalyptus has allopathic effects on native plants (i.e., it chemically
> inhibits their germination, establishment, growth etc.).  Areas planted in
> Eucalyptus tend to be sterile and devoid of understory forbes or shrubs.
> Eucalyptus planted as windbreaks even had deleterious effects on mango and
> citrus orchards in its vicinity.
> 
> 3. While some species of Eucalyptus were successful in arid areas which
> defied several rounds of reforestation efforts, its planting should
> generally be avoided.  Even where native trees could not be reestablished
> because of soil erosion/degradation/formation of laterite hardpans, we
> usually succeeded in reestablishing native grasses and shrubs.  Over time,
> these areas will succeed to forests again.  To my mind, it is hasty and
> unwise to introduce exotic species unless pressed by the most dire
> necessity."
> 
> 
> SENEGAL
> Professor Bob Youngs,  from Virginia Technology, Blacksburg, VA., USA
> explains that "we have used eucalyptus, especially E.camaldulensis
> extensively in reforestation in Senegal without apparent environmental
> damage.  It grows rapidly, and therefore uses large amounts of moisture and
> nutrients.  It can quickly provide protection from wind and sun for crops
> and animals in agroforestry situations, in addition to providing fuelwood,
> poles, and other wood materials."
> 
> 
> SOUTH AFRICA
> Professor Gordon Freer, from the University of the Witwatersrand,
> Johannesburg, South Africa, has read a number of African reforestation
> programmes that use the Eucalyptus (or Blue gum) to replant forests and
> stop soil erosion, and he concludes that: "A number of others use
> indigenous trees but there seems to have been no major problems from using
> the Australian import.  Just as a matter of interest it was imported into
> South Africa initially as a raw material for use as supports in the mining
> industry in the late 1800s."
> 
> 
> 
> SOUTHEAST ASIA
> 
> 
> SINGAPORE
> Professor Mong-Shing Sim, from Temasek Polytechnic, Singapore, has
> participated in many reforestation programmes in Southeast Asia.  He
> explains that:
> 
> "1. Most, if not all, Eucalyptus growth are very variable.  Variable in
> terms of germination, growth rate, and true-to-type (especially the hybrid
> Eucalyptus).
> 
> 2. In South-east Asia , most species of Eucalyptus are not suitable because
> they do not form canopy quick enough to reduce competition with native
> grass (known in Malaysia as "lalang" and Indonesia as "alang alang").  The
> scientific name is Imperata cylindrica.  Please note that this species of
> grass is ubiquitous in Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, and Thailand.
> This has led to many eucalyptus plantation with high mortality.
> 
> 3. Most species of Eucalyptus do not grow well because they show poor
> adaptation to other climatic conditions besides their own.  For example,
> the native Eucalyptus urophylla in Indonesia (Irian Jaya) can not adapt to
> the change in environmental condition when planted in Sumatra, Indonesia.
> 
> 4.  Of course, the well known problem with eucalyptus is soil degradation
> and toxicity to other plants.
> 
> With all the above factors, reforestation companies tend to be more
> cautions when planting Eucalyptus.  Hence, many provenance trials are
> conducted to evaluate the species' or hybrid's adaptability.
> 
> In South-east Asia, Acacia sp. is still the most popular because of their
> wide adaptability and uniformity."
> 
> 
> 
> THAILAND
> Prof. Dhon Sewatarmra explains that in his country "some eucalyptus
> companies promote the income opportunity for the people, but this is hardly
> to substitute what they could have gained from developing a social (or
> community) forestry and applying the indigenous wisdom (this is peculiar to
> each location)."
> 
> He interprets the topic from an ethical perspective: "There are some worse
> cases of the eucalyptus  (and paper) companies which exploit the villagers
> with fraud agreements, or deceitful tactics in paying back, and so on.
> Moreover, the way of obtaining land for the eucalyptus plantation is worth
> discuss.  There are cases of corruption to earn the land title or the
> concessions in Thailand and Southeast Asia.  The problems could emerge from
> the land at the boundaries of natural parks, or the century-occupied land
> by villagers without the title.  Normally, once the concession is awarded,
> the villagers who have lived on the land (even for generations) will be
> removed as the concessionaire has the ownership.  Then, who does really
> benefit? ...not the villagers!!"
> 
> 
> 
> LATIN AMERICA
> 
> 
> BRAZIL
> Helena Kobayashi, a student from the Graduate School of International
> Development, Yokohama National University, points out the problem of the
> over adaptation of the eucalyptus: "If it did not exist in the natural
> vegetation, and if it suits too well the local conditions, eucalyptus can
> grow exponentially, to the extent that man looses control over its growth.
> 
> Professor Hernani Chaves, from the Department of Geology and Geophysics,
> State University of Rio de Janeiro, criticizes the use of eucalyptus in
> reforestation in the central part of Brazil, saying that other species
> would be more adequate.
> 
> 
> GUATEMALA
> Prof.  Mirna Carranza explains that currently there is a reforestation
> project using Eucalyptus in Guatemala for commercial purposes.  The company
> that is responsible for the project utilizes the trees as fuel wood.  The
> species planted are Camandulensis and Citiodora.  The project is being
> extended to the Eastern Region of the country (which is very dry).  She
> advises that more information can be obtained from CATIE, Turrialba, Costa
> Rica.
> 
> 
> HAITI
> Professor JoAnn Jaffe worked on an agricultural development/soil
> conservation/agroforestry project in Haiti called Proje Sove Te, as a
> social scientist and farming systems research specialist.  She emphasizes
> that her comments reflects what peasants and others told her about  their
> experience with eucalyptus: "Evidently, the presence of eucalyptus inhibits
> the growth of agricultural crops, not just due to shading, but because it
> is allophatic. It is considered to harm crops even after it is harvested.
> As (agro)forestry species were concerned, participants preferred species
> that had personal or local uses - prosopis which can be coppiced and used
> for charcoal, some varieties of leucema that can be used as animal feed,
> neem which can be used to help protect crops during storage and as an
> insecticide tec.  They also liked some of the other fast growing species
> that could be used as building poles, or had other construction uses.
> These trees may indeed be more important and of higher value to peasants
> than those that end up in international markets as pulp."
> 
> 
> NICARAGUA
> Professor Andrew Davis describes the Nicaraguan case as follows:  "In
> Nicaragua the policy of planting eucalyptus has survived for the past 50
> years despite all changes of government, civil war and revolution.  It
> makes a good shelter bet, grows very quickly and makes excellent firewood.
> However, the tree has disadvantages.  It's fallen leaves  do not rot away
> very easily, very little will grow beneath the trees (because of the fallen
> leaves I believe not because of 'poisoning' per se) and the timber is not
> very good for structural or joinery work of any sophistication.  The irony
> is that Nicaragua's west coast has a very large number of indigenous tree
> species that have all the good characteristics that eucalyptus has and
> fewer drawbacks - the irony is doubled because Nicaragua "exports" seeds of
> both west coast and east coast (rain forest) species to several countries,
> including Australia!"
> 
> "My feeling is that eucalyptus should not be banned from aforestation
> projects but it should only be used if suitable species are "not" available
> locally.  For many projects I am sure that eucalyptus spp. would not come
> very high on the list of species-with-desired-characteristics."
> 
> He also stresses that his view is emphatically "not" that 'local is best' -
> just that 'local' should be assessed fully first.
> 
> 
> UNITED STATES
> 
> OREGON
> Dr. Wm. H. Emmingham, from the Department of Forest Science, Oregon State
> University, explains that planting Eucalyptus in Oregon, even in the
> warmest part of the state is very risky.  "Our occasional winter cold
> spells have killed most all the eucalyptus species that have been planted
> here.  Having seen it planted and thrive in warmer climates, I am skeptical
> that it actually harms the site in some way.  Of course, it may take over
> and create special conditions - e.g.. deep litter - that are either
> extremely flammable, or change the composition of the decomposer community.
>  If either of those conditions could be defined as harmful, I suppose one
> could argue the case."
> 
> 
> 6. ACKNOWLEDGMENT
> 
> Besides the persons cited in this text, it is also important  to
> acknowledge the contributions of the following:
> Ÿ       Scott Campbell, Ph.D., Crop Management Information Specialist, Dept.
> of Agronomy and Soil Sci., University of Hawaii at Manoa.
> Ÿ       David Barkin
> Ÿ       Foad (Frank) Shodjai
> Ÿ       Stephanie G.
> Ÿ       Martin J Scurrah, Spanish Department and Latin American Studies Prog
> ram, Flinders University of South Australia.
> Ÿ       Prof. Dorceta Taylor
> Ÿ       Professor Carol Giesecke, Cooperative Extension, University of Maine
> , Orono, ME.
> Ÿ       Prof. D Pena
> Ÿ       Professor Gene Wengert,  Extension Specialist in Wood Processing, De
> partment of Forestry, University of Wiscosin-Madison, Madison, WI.
> Ÿ       Professor William G. Hubbard, Southern Region Extension Forester, Co
> operative Extension Service, The University of Georgia, Athens, GA.
> 
> 
> 7. SCHOLARS RESEARCHING THE TOPIC
> 
> Besides the scholars cited above in this text , the following are also
> working with the topic:
> 
> Dr. Patricia Marchak
> Professor of Sociology and  Dean of the Faculty of Arts,
> University of British Columbia (area of research: eucalyptus - including
> its political economy, the effect of cloning and monoculturing; research of
> several sites in the Third World)
> 
> Dr. Donald Rockwood, University of Florida. (has done research on Eucalyptus)
> 
> 
> 8. SUGGESTED  BIBLIOGRAPHY
> 
> "Eucalyptus: Curse or Cure?" , published by the Australian Centre for
> International Research.
> 
> "Eucalyptus: The blessings of a damned tree" in Envio, Universidad
> Centroamericana, Managua, Nicaragua, volume 13, number 160, November 1994:
> 37 - 41
> 
> Shiva, Vandana.  Staying Alive: Women, Ecology and Development. Zed Books,
> London.
> 
> _____________. The Violence of the Green Revolution.  Zed Books LTD,,  London.
> 
> ______________. Monocultures of the Mind.  Zed Books, London, 1993. (This
> book is also published by Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey and Penang,
> Malaysia.  ISBN: 1-85649-217-6 (Hardback) and ISBN: 1-85649-218-4
> (Paperback).
> 
> Webb et al., Guide to Species Selection for Tropical and Subtropical
> Plantations.  University of Oxford Press, Tropical Forestry Papers, N. 15,
> 1984.
> 
> 
> (END)
> 

From london@sunsite.unc.edu  Wed Feb  8 14:56:42 1995
Return-Path: <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA01946; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:56:42 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id OAA07189 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:57:32 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA29927; Wed, 8 Feb 95 14:52:23 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA00204; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:53:28 -0500
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:53:27 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: basic questions on sustainable ag (fwd)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950208145237.28032A-100000@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
content-length: 3249
Status: O
X-Status: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 08 Feb 1995 07:54:22 WST
>From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Subject: Re: basic questions on sustainable ag (fwd)


 > Subject: basic questions on sustainable ag
 > Basic Questions About Sustainable Agriculture
 > The two biggest questions about sustainable agriculture seem to be:
 >     1.  what is it?
 >     2.  how do we get there?

   This is very contemplative stuff, and very hard for us to be 
objective about. I see many things happening for the good while we 
debate question number 1.
Checks and balances are starting to be put in place to start costing the
real production cost of food. Ships which spill fuel used to bunker 
grain and produce ships are part of the unseen cost to our society.
The sending of wheat to Italy be made into Pasta and then transporting 
it back is ludicrous.
We can't isolate sustainable Agriculture from sustainable community.
Kids in Australia are monitoring the quality of water in rivers, and so 
we see governments becoming sensitive to issues that they would have 
been happy to turn a blind eye to.
I worked in Libya for 2 years on a dryland farming project, and the 
destruction of the forests by the Romans looks like history repeating 
itself in the new world. There appears to be good reason to beleive that 
from the video produced by Bill Mollison "The Global Gardener" that
removing a third world country from the grips of the world banks that we 
can create a sustainable agricultural system for third world countries.
The Capitalist slave mentality and the power of the media to sell us 
stuff we don't want, is all part of getting to grips with the problem.
Global awareness of the problems is seeing 40,000,000 kids connected 
electronically world wide to the scientific team from five world 
powers crossing the Antartic.
Because of this project we are lead to believe that America signed a no 
mining agreement.
 I met a young graphic artist who's brother navigated the  team  across 
the Antartic who set up this kids project, and he was a fellow speaker 
at a conference on a curiculum for Global Education.  
I read that by encouraging natural preditors the amount of chemical is 
being dramatically reduced on vineyards.    
I was at a meeting of Australian Assoc. of Enviromental Education 
yesterday and all school curiculum is being linked to the enviroment.
Landcare projects are a major part of this.
Through e-mail I am able to read about the incredable movement towards 
a sustainable world.
Your questions are good to help us focus on the issues, and I think the 
critical mass to achieve this is here.
Repairing our broken world, means we can't sustain the present systems 
and using nature rather than fighting it as permaculture design does 
suggests that we could feed the world on 4% of the arable land.
 
>   > Tom Hodges, Cropping Systems Analyst, thodges@beta.tricity.wsu.edu
 >  
 >  
-- 
Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6026
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From london@sunsite.unc.edu Fri Feb  3 22:50:26 1995
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by mail05.mail.aol.com with ESMTP
	(1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA089969826; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 22:50:26 -0500
Return-Path: <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id VAA05759 for <sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 21:24:05 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA12161; Fri, 3 Feb 95 21:18:50 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA11457; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 21:19:55 -0500
Newsgroups: sci.agriculture,alt.agriculture.misc,alt.agriculture.fruit
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 21:19:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
To: sustag-public@ces.ncsu.edu, sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu,
        permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Cc: swc1@cornell.edu
Subject: Farming for the Future: Partners in Stewardship Conference
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950203211310.7700B-100000@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 16:40:04 -0500
>From: Suzanne Cady <swc1@cornell.edu>
Subject: sustainable agriculture conference
-

Farming for the Future: Partners in Stewardship 
-----------------------------------------------

Farming for the Future: Partners in Stewardship is a conference to discuss
concerns and create options for sustaining agriculture in our communities.
Join us for a lively discussion of critical issues facing agriculture
today.  Work with and learn from farmers, extension agents, community
leaders, agricultural business representatives, public agencies and
environmentalists.

The conference will be held on Wed. Feb. 22 and Thurs. Feb. 23 at the
Sheraton University Inn & Conference Center in Syracuse New York.
Workshops will deal with current controversies in agriculture today such as
the impact of dairy farming on water quality, how sustainable agriculture
affects farm labor, and public concerns about food safety.  Other workshops
will discuss new sustainable agriculture policies, community land use
planning, and management techniques for cash grain, dairy, fruit &
vegetable and ornamental industries.

Support for this conference was provided by the Northeast Region
Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education Program.  Co-sponsors
include Cornell Univ. Cooperative Extension, Agway, Cornell Farming
Alternatives Program, NY Chapter of Northeast Organic Farmers Asociation,
and the Natural Resources Conservation Service.

Registration is $85 for both days and includes a banquet dinner with the
keynote address by Greg Watson of the Nature Conservancy.  Single day
registrations are $55 for Wed. and $35 for Thurs..  A limited number of
reduced registrations are available.  To register, contact Pam Kline, 144
Emerson Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853.  Telephone
607-255-2177.  Fax: 607-255-6143.  E-mail: pak1@cornell.edu


From london@sunsite.unc.edu  Sat Feb 11 10:25:24 1995
Return-Path: <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA25144; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 10:25:24 -0500
Received: from wolf.ces.ncsu.edu (wolf.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.18]) by amani.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id KAA18167 for <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 10:24:32 -0500
Received: from sunsite.oit.unc.edu (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by wolf.ces.ncsu.edu with SMTP (5.59/25-eef)
	id AA15716; Sat, 11 Feb 95 10:19:31 EST
Received: by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AA23950; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 10:20:32 -0500
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 10:20:32 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Three Legs (fwd)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950211102009.23550A-100000@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
content-length: 2207
Status: O
X-Status: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 22:00:10 -0800 (PST)
>From: Tom Hodges (moderated newsgroup) <sustag@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
To: Principles of Sustainable Agriculture <sustag-l@listproc.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Three Legs (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 07 May 1995 11:25:46 WST
>From: Warwick Rowell <warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
To: sustag@beta.tricity.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: Three Legs (fwd)

In Western Australia we have two groups who are working hard 
on this focus on soil. 

One is the Land Management Society, which has published a book 
called "The Farm Monitoring Handbook". Much of the content is about 
monitoring the soil, and your management of it.  Mainly physical, 
but there are also biological measures. The compilation of the book 
was supervised by Prof Bob Gilkes, who won the 1991 Australian soil 
science award. To encourage a systematic approach to whole farm planning, 
the LMS has been publishing newsletters over the last four years with the
interacting elements of climate, soils, water, flora, fauna, and people. 

The Permaculture movement is very much focussed on earth care. Caring 
for the top 40 cms of the soil by managing the 40 cms of microclimate 
above it will allow nature to do the incedibly complex biochemical 
things it does, which will elad to the results outlined in the previous
post.

I like the focus this article gives - Keeping soil healthy is tangible, 
direct, and actionable, but still intricate enough to be challenging, and 
full of learning and humbling feedback. Half the problem with concepts like 
sustainability is that we can keep discussing them forever. Growing food
for our family in our own backyard, or our community greenhouse, or on
the street verges is a challenge. Building city-farm links, and directly 
supporting the low input farmers in our area is also very important.

 __________________________________________________________
|                warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au                |
|                                                          |
|   Management Consultant     Permaculture Designer        |
|_"Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"_|


From vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au  Mon Feb 13 09:22:11 1995
Return-Path: <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Received: from [203.5.184.1] by sunsite.oit.unc.edu (5.x/TAS/11-16-88/Jones Hack)
	id AB15744; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:22:11 -0500
Received: from cessysv.eepo.com.au (cessysv.eepo.com.au [203.5.184.4]) by prime.eepo.com.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA03877 for <@mailhost.eepo.com.au:london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu>; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:46:04 +0800
Received: from daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au by cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au id aa10589;
          13 Feb 95 19:06 WST
Received:  by daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.12b);
           Mon, 13 Feb 1995 17:39:24 WST
Date:      Mon, 13 Feb 1995 17:39:23 WST
From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Message-Id: <2f3f28cc.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
Organization: V.G and A-M Guest
To: london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu
Subject:   Re: Defining soil quality (fwd)
content-length: 1413
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.950210200103.1862B-100000@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu> you write:

 >  
 > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
 > Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 14:52:42 -0800 (PST)
 > >From: Tom Hodges (moderated newsgroup) <sustag@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
 > To: Principles of Sustainable Agriculture <sustag-l@listproc.wsu.edu>
 > Subject: Re: Defining soil quality (fwd)
 > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
 > Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 11:22:51 -0500 (EST)
 > >From: llengnic@asrr.arsusda.gov
 > To: "Tom Hodges (moderated newsgroup)" <sustag@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
 > Subject: Re: Defining soil quality (fwd)
 >  
 > YES, YES, YES!!!!
 >  
 > A definition of soil quality that is not tied to crop production is
 > where we should be heading.  I've thought about this problem a little,
  
Why 

   Permaculture doesn't need soil to grow things.
 A definition of "crop" should be the first definition.
Then we can see what we can produce if we change the monoculture 
mentality.
Harvesting is the limiting factor.
We have a 30% increase growing peas and wheat together, over growing 
them     
-- 
Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6026
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

