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Re: local food securtiy & the concept of a "foodshed"



On Fri, 31 Mar 1995 tjakin@pssci.umass.edu wrote:

> Fred Kirschenmann, an organic grain farmer from North Dakota, spoke
> this past week at a Northeast Region SARE Ch. 3-sponsored
> conference on sustainable agriculture.  He touched on the subject
> of local agriculture, local food security and the concept of a
> "foodshed" (conceptual equivalent of a watershed).  Could someone
> point out further reading on the "foodshed" concept?

Tom,

Arthur Getz wrote a short article on this topic in the Oct, 1991 
Permaculture Activist #24 (pages 26-7).  
It might be of interest to subscribe to the new group on direct marketing 
also:
> To subscribe to direct-mkt, send the following message to
> majordomo@reeusda.gov:
>
>    subscribe direct-mkt

Good luck,

Colehour Arden

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ COLEHOUR JORDAN ARDEN                     +
+ International Agricultural Development &  +
+ Master of Education Graduate Groups       +
+ University of California at Davis         +
+ POST:  P.O. Box 73392, Davis, CA 95617    +
+ PHONE: 916/759-0497	                    +
+ EMAIL: cjarden@ucdavis.edu                +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Article 7810 of misc.rural:
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!deeweed
From: deeweed@iastate.edu (DeeAnna Weed)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Date: 16 Feb 1994 17:03:16 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <2jtjkk$79j@news.iastate.edu>
References: <CL2L8t.A05@freenet.carleton.ca> <den0.303.2D60F883@lehigh.edu> <wier-150294220643@198.213.12.234>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pv6805.vincent.iastate.edu

Bob Wier wrote: "One of the old
ranchers told me the best way to seal a pond bottom is to have horse/
cow livestock in it for awhile. He indicated that the manure would have
a strong "sealing" action on the bed of the eventual pond."

I can think of two reasons why this would seal the pond bed. One is that the
manure would supply nitrogen and carbon for anaerobic bacteria to consume.
As the bacteria reproduce and die, they produce a fine, slimy waste material
that coats and seals the pond bottom. Earthen manure disposal pits depend on
this process to eventually seal the pit bottom and prevent groundwater
pollution. The soil type and the distance to groundwater will determine the
effectiveness of the seal.

Another factor is that the cattle and horses often wade out into a pond to
cool off. When soil is saturated with water, this "puddling" action of their
feet breaks down the soil structure into fine particles which also act to seal
the pond. Paddy rice farmers "puddle" their flooded fields with oxen for this
reason. 

DeeAnna 

-- 


Article 7813 of misc.rural:
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!af017
From: af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R. Smith)
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Message-ID: <CLC6MG.H9@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 21:35:03 GMT
Lines: 29



Thanks for all the suggestions on this re: my original posting
asking for info.
To combine the advice: put a layer of straw manure down first,
then a couple layers cheap black plastic, then another layer of
manure on top of the plastic to seal from UV, etc.
If no livestock available for puddling then have a "bachanalia"
party, inviting friends to dance barefoot in the pond for a
few hours....
(good way to lose friends).
At any rate, with the warnings mentioned above that plastic can
cause toxic problems for fish, as well as manure in some situa-   
tions I am looking at soil cement next.
Much cheaper than regular cement, but soil variance could create
problems, etc.
Any books or manuals recommended on soil cement appreciated.
cheers
David Smith
(of course the butyl rubber sheeting would be best but for the
large size of pond we have in mind, it is very expensive....
on a related note I have read that the great surplus of used
tires has provided a number of designs for fish related things
such as artificial reefs and fish breeding areas and all
articles seem to state that tire rubber, unlike the black
poly sheeting, is completely nontoxic to fish and other
pond life...now if someone can find a way to convert all those
throwaway tires to rubber sheeting we will be in business)
-- 


Article 7813 of misc.rural:
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!af017
From: af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R. Smith)
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Message-ID: <CLC6MG.H9@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 21:35:03 GMT
Lines: 29



Thanks for all the suggestions on this re: my original posting
asking for info.
To combine the advice: put a layer of straw manure down first,
then a couple layers cheap black plastic, then another layer of
manure on top of the plastic to seal from UV, etc.
If no livestock available for puddling then have a "bachanalia"
party, inviting friends to dance barefoot in the pond for a
few hours....
(good way to lose friends).
At any rate, with the warnings mentioned above that plastic can
cause toxic problems for fish, as well as manure in some situa-   
tions I am looking at soil cement next.
Much cheaper than regular cement, but soil variance could create
problems, etc.
Any books or manuals recommended on soil cement appreciated.
cheers
David Smith
(of course the butyl rubber sheeting would be best but for the
large size of pond we have in mind, it is very expensive....
on a related note I have read that the great surplus of used
tires has provided a number of designs for fish related things
such as artificial reefs and fish breeding areas and all
articles seem to state that tire rubber, unlike the black
poly sheeting, is completely nontoxic to fish and other
pond life...now if someone can find a way to convert all those
throwaway tires to rubber sheeting we will be in business)
-- 


Article 7804 of misc.rural:
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!bronze.ucs.indiana.edu!amirza
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Message-ID: <CLBnCB.DH8@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bronze.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington IN
References: <CL2L8t.A05@freenet.carleton.ca> <den0.303.2D60F883@lehigh.edu> <wier-150294220643@198.213.12.234>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 14:38:34 GMT
Lines: 36

In article <wier-150294220643@198.213.12.234>,
Bob Wier <wier@merlin.etsu.edu> wrote:
>I worked on a dude ranch in Colorado a long time ago, and we had a number
>of ponds where trout was stocked (one of the things I had to do every
>afternoon when there were no guests was go and throw out Purina Trout
>Chow, believe it or not!).  When we had guests coming, we wouldn't feed
>'em for a couple of days...

I believe it, the bio lab here has bag of purina primate chow, rat
chow, etc. ad nauseum...

>Anyway, these ponds leaked quite a bit since they were pretty new, and
>this was before plastic was widely used as a liner.  One of the old
>ranchers told me the best way to seal a pond bottom is to have horse/
>cow livestock in it for awhile. He indicated that the manure would have
>a strong "sealing" action on the bed of the eventual pond.
>
>I've got no idea how long after you put water in it all of the organics
>would decompose back to a normal level if you wanted to keep fish, etc...
>
>Anybody know if this actually works?

I believe Tom Mattson discusses this in his book "Earth Ponds".  The
resulting organic mixture makes what he termed "gley".  It isn't the
manure that does the sealing, it is the straw and hay you put down,
the livestock churns it into the ground.  The resulting mixture is
supposed to last for many years under water.

I have no idea if it works in practice.


-- 
Anmar Mirza   #Chief of Tranquility  #I thought that they were angels, much
EMT-D N9ISY   #Base, Lawrence Co. IN #to my surprise, we climbed aboard their
Sawyer        #Somewhere out on the  #starship, we headed for the skies...
Networks Tech.#Mirza Ranch. DoD#1143 #Come sail away, come sail away with me


Article 7810 of misc.rural:
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!deeweed
From: deeweed@iastate.edu (DeeAnna Weed)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Date: 16 Feb 1994 17:03:16 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <2jtjkk$79j@news.iastate.edu>
References: <CL2L8t.A05@freenet.carleton.ca> <den0.303.2D60F883@lehigh.edu> <wier-150294220643@198.213.12.234>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pv6805.vincent.iastate.edu

Bob Wier wrote: "One of the old
ranchers told me the best way to seal a pond bottom is to have horse/
cow livestock in it for awhile. He indicated that the manure would have
a strong "sealing" action on the bed of the eventual pond."

I can think of two reasons why this would seal the pond bed. One is that the
manure would supply nitrogen and carbon for anaerobic bacteria to consume.
As the bacteria reproduce and die, they produce a fine, slimy waste material
that coats and seals the pond bottom. Earthen manure disposal pits depend on
this process to eventually seal the pit bottom and prevent groundwater
pollution. The soil type and the distance to groundwater will determine the
effectiveness of the seal.

Another factor is that the cattle and horses often wade out into a pond to
cool off. When soil is saturated with water, this "puddling" action of their
feet breaks down the soil structure into fine particles which also act to seal
the pond. Paddy rice farmers "puddle" their flooded fields with oxen for this
reason. 

DeeAnna 

-- 


Article 7813 of misc.rural:
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!af017
From: af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R. Smith)
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Message-ID: <CLC6MG.H9@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 21:35:03 GMT
Lines: 29



Thanks for all the suggestions on this re: my original posting
asking for info.
To combine the advice: put a layer of straw manure down first,
then a couple layers cheap black plastic, then another layer of
manure on top of the plastic to seal from UV, etc.
If no livestock available for puddling then have a "bachanalia"
party, inviting friends to dance barefoot in the pond for a
few hours....
(good way to lose friends).
At any rate, with the warnings mentioned above that plastic can
cause toxic problems for fish, as well as manure in some situa-   
tions I am looking at soil cement next.
Much cheaper than regular cement, but soil variance could create
problems, etc.
Any books or manuals recommended on soil cement appreciated.
cheers
David Smith
(of course the butyl rubber sheeting would be best but for the
large size of pond we have in mind, it is very expensive....
on a related note I have read that the great surplus of used
tires has provided a number of designs for fish related things
such as artificial reefs and fish breeding areas and all
articles seem to state that tire rubber, unlike the black
poly sheeting, is completely nontoxic to fish and other
pond life...now if someone can find a way to convert all those
throwaway tires to rubber sheeting we will be in business)
-- 


Article 7813 of misc.rural:
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!af017
From: af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R. Smith)
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Message-ID: <CLC6MG.H9@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 21:35:03 GMT
Lines: 29



Thanks for all the suggestions on this re: my original posting
asking for info.
To combine the advice: put a layer of straw manure down first,
then a couple layers cheap black plastic, then another layer of
manure on top of the plastic to seal from UV, etc.
If no livestock available for puddling then have a "bachanalia"
party, inviting friends to dance barefoot in the pond for a
few hours....
(good way to lose friends).
At any rate, with the warnings mentioned above that plastic can
cause toxic problems for fish, as well as manure in some situa-   
tions I am looking at soil cement next.
Much cheaper than regular cement, but soil variance could create
problems, etc.
Any books or manuals recommended on soil cement appreciated.
cheers
David Smith
(of course the butyl rubber sheeting would be best but for the
large size of pond we have in mind, it is very expensive....
on a related note I have read that the great surplus of used
tires has provided a number of designs for fish related things
such as artificial reefs and fish breeding areas and all
articles seem to state that tire rubber, unlike the black
poly sheeting, is completely nontoxic to fish and other
pond life...now if someone can find a way to convert all those
throwaway tires to rubber sheeting we will be in business)
-- 


Article 7810 of misc.rural:
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!deeweed
From: deeweed@iastate.edu (DeeAnna Weed)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Date: 16 Feb 1994 17:03:16 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <2jtjkk$79j@news.iastate.edu>
References: <CL2L8t.A05@freenet.carleton.ca> <den0.303.2D60F883@lehigh.edu> <wier-150294220643@198.213.12.234>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pv6805.vincent.iastate.edu

Bob Wier wrote: "One of the old
ranchers told me the best way to seal a pond bottom is to have horse/
cow livestock in it for awhile. He indicated that the manure would have
a strong "sealing" action on the bed of the eventual pond."

I can think of two reasons why this would seal the pond bed. One is that the
manure would supply nitrogen and carbon for anaerobic bacteria to consume.
As the bacteria reproduce and die, they produce a fine, slimy waste material
that coats and seals the pond bottom. Earthen manure disposal pits depend on
this process to eventually seal the pit bottom and prevent groundwater
pollution. The soil type and the distance to groundwater will determine the
effectiveness of the seal.

Another factor is that the cattle and horses often wade out into a pond to
cool off. When soil is saturated with water, this "puddling" action of their
feet breaks down the soil structure into fine particles which also act to seal
the pond. Paddy rice farmers "puddle" their flooded fields with oxen for this
reason. 

DeeAnna 

-- 


Article 7813 of misc.rural:
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!af017
From: af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R. Smith)
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Message-ID: <CLC6MG.H9@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 21:35:03 GMT
Lines: 29



Thanks for all the suggestions on this re: my original posting
asking for info.
To combine the advice: put a layer of straw manure down first,
then a couple layers cheap black plastic, then another layer of
manure on top of the plastic to seal from UV, etc.
If no livestock available for puddling then have a "bachanalia"
party, inviting friends to dance barefoot in the pond for a
few hours....
(good way to lose friends).
At any rate, with the warnings mentioned above that plastic can
cause toxic problems for fish, as well as manure in some situa-   
tions I am looking at soil cement next.
Much cheaper than regular cement, but soil variance could create
problems, etc.
Any books or manuals recommended on soil cement appreciated.
cheers
David Smith
(of course the butyl rubber sheeting would be best but for the
large size of pond we have in mind, it is very expensive....
on a related note I have read that the great surplus of used
tires has provided a number of designs for fish related things
such as artificial reefs and fish breeding areas and all
articles seem to state that tire rubber, unlike the black
poly sheeting, is completely nontoxic to fish and other
pond life...now if someone can find a way to convert all those
throwaway tires to rubber sheeting we will be in business)
-- 


Article 7813 of misc.rural:
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!af017
From: af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R. Smith)
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Message-ID: <CLC6MG.H9@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 21:35:03 GMT
Lines: 29



Thanks for all the suggestions on this re: my original posting
asking for info.
To combine the advice: put a layer of straw manure down first,
then a couple layers cheap black plastic, then another layer of
manure on top of the plastic to seal from UV, etc.
If no livestock available for puddling then have a "bachanalia"
party, inviting friends to dance barefoot in the pond for a
few hours....
(good way to lose friends).
At any rate, with the warnings mentioned above that plastic can
cause toxic problems for fish, as well as manure in some situa-   
tions I am looking at soil cement next.
Much cheaper than regular cement, but soil variance could create
problems, etc.
Any books or manuals recommended on soil cement appreciated.
cheers
David Smith
(of course the butyl rubber sheeting would be best but for the
large size of pond we have in mind, it is very expensive....
on a related note I have read that the great surplus of used
tires has provided a number of designs for fish related things
such as artificial reefs and fish breeding areas and all
articles seem to state that tire rubber, unlike the black
poly sheeting, is completely nontoxic to fish and other
pond life...now if someone can find a way to convert all those
throwaway tires to rubber sheeting we will be in business)
-- 


Article 7804 of misc.rural:
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!bronze.ucs.indiana.edu!amirza
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: water reservoir liner, cheapest
Message-ID: <CLBnCB.DH8@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bronze.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington IN
References: <CL2L8t.A05@freenet.carleton.ca> <den0.303.2D60F883@lehigh.edu> <wier-150294220643@198.213.12.234>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 14:38:34 GMT
Lines: 36

In article <wier-150294220643@198.213.12.234>,
Bob Wier <wier@merlin.etsu.edu> wrote:
>I worked on a dude ranch in Colorado a long time ago, and we had a number
>of ponds where trout was stocked (one of the things I had to do every
>afternoon when there were no guests was go and throw out Purina Trout
>Chow, believe it or not!).  When we had guests coming, we wouldn't feed
>'em for a couple of days...

I believe it, the bio lab here has bag of purina primate chow, rat
chow, etc. ad nauseum...

>Anyway, these ponds leaked quite a bit since they were pretty new, and
>this was before plastic was widely used as a liner.  One of the old
>ranchers told me the best way to seal a pond bottom is to have horse/
>cow livestock in it for awhile. He indicated that the manure would have
>a strong "sealing" action on the bed of the eventual pond.
>
>I've got no idea how long after you put water in it all of the organics
>would decompose back to a normal level if you wanted to keep fish, etc...
>
>Anybody know if this actually works?

I believe Tom Mattson discusses this in his book "Earth Ponds".  The
resulting organic mixture makes what he termed "gley".  It isn't the
manure that does the sealing, it is the straw and hay you put down,
the livestock churns it into the ground.  The resulting mixture is
supposed to last for many years under water.

I have no idea if it works in practice.


-- 
Anmar Mirza   #Chief of Tranquility  #I thought that they were angels, much
EMT-D N9ISY   #Base, Lawrence Co. IN #to my surprise, we climbed aboard their
Sawyer        #Somewhere out on the  #starship, we headed for the skies...
Networks Tech.#Mirza Ranch. DoD#1143 #Come sail away, come sail away with me