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Re: Wasp statistics and Re: generalizations




In article <MOD$970926.20144@rec.gardens.ecosystems>, jdingler@onramp.net wrote:

> I've only recently discovered this newsgroup.  It was suggested on
> rec.gardens.edibles as an organic ng.  After reading a weeks worth of
> articles from it, I don't think so.  I have also seen very little
> reference to ecosystems.  I am interested in both of these topics and
> was hoping for some new information.

This is still a young group, and was formed in the summer, when most folks
are busy with gardening. Nevertheless, there have been threads that were
not about pest control. Expect things to pick up a bit as the weather
cools.

And of course, much better than being patient is to start threads on
specific topics than interest you.

And of course, the group isn't intended to be just an organic gardening
group, though those topics are indeed welcome.

> 
> Like Mr. Hulet, I've seen many requests and responses for information on
> quick fixes.  Though this isn't counter to organic gardening, it does
> tend to sidetrack the ecosystem side a bit.

A bit, but then there is no reason people can't work those ideas even into
threads that start with say, aphid control. The person might want a quick
fix, but that prevents noone from providing a deeper discussion on subjects
such as plant health, attracting syrphids and other aphid predators, etc.
Recently, there was a thread pretty much like that over on r.g. 

Actually, over the years, there has been a lot of that kind of discussion
on r.g. The problem many people find with that group is that you have to
wade through the rest of the traffic to find that stuff. We're all hoping
this group will be easier to wade through.

>  In my limited understanding
> of ecosystems, checks and balances are paramount to a healthy
> ecosystem.  By using a quick fix, these balances are distorted and the
> system can be expected to take some time to recover to a new balance. 
> This new balance may or may not have desirable consequences.

Sometimes this is indeed the case. Some ecosystems are more prone to damage
than others, of course. Some are actually restored (or rather, reset) by
certain disturbances, that themselves are part of the normal ecosystems
(e.g., fires in some kinds of conifer forests, floods in some places). 

> 
> I had hoped that this ng would address the issues as they relate to
> gardening, so far I haven't seen much that relates to this.  Certainly
> these quick fixes, like using pesticides and radical changes in soil
> chemistry, have little to do with establishing a garden with a healthy
> ecosystem.

Which is a difficult thing anyway, gardens being artificial ecosystems. 
Pesticides can be used in some cases w/o much disruption, and even
sometimes to good environmental effect. Unfortunately, a lot of the use has
merely served to put us on "the pesticide treadmill", a sort of chemical
addiction.
Of course, that's changing, albeit slowly.

As for the soils: you sometimes have to change them to grow what you want.
You can't grow rhododendrons or blueberries in alkaline soil. So if that's
the soil you have, and that's what you want to grow, you have no choice but
to change the soil chemistry. In lesser degree, that is true of many
plants.

There's got to be a whole possible discussion there about using plants that
are already adapted....

> 
> Most of what I used to know about gardening, I learned from my
> grandfather.  He always had a few acres planted somewhere and gave away
> countless bushels of produce to everyone he knew.  From him I learned
> the proper proportions of high strength fertilizers to use.  I learned
> to cover everything but the flowers with chlordane dust.  I learned to
> diagnose plant illness.  I learned to kill everything near the garden
> that moved under it's own power, except his bees of course.

A popular approach with some. But never the only aproach. I learned it the
opposite way: low intervention.

> 
> Two decades later, I'm learning a different approach.  I've gardened for
> two years now in small plots around my house.  I've used no artificial
> fertilizers and no pesticides.  I've lost crops and learned lessons.  As
> my gardens have grown and my perennials have begun to flourish, I've
> noticed changes in my local ecosystem.  There is a balance coming into
> play.  As a result, I have more insects and arachnids in my yard than
> I've seen anywhere in the city.  I'm also getting more out of my
> gardens.  I'm getting bigger and better vegetables and more of them.  I
> lose some vegetables but gardeners who believe in pesticides do to. 
> What has surprised me, is that my losses are small and short term, while
> pesticide approach tends to incur larger losses more often.  I don't
> believe this is an accident.  I believe anyone can have similar
> results.  But our phobias of bugs tend to get in the way.

Bug phobias? Tell me about it! A crying shame, if you ask me.

> 
> I'm running out of time to write this post so there isn't much more
> rambling room, so I'd like to spawn an ecosystem discussion. :)

Well, ramble in again, why don'tcha? You've raised some good points above,
and you could probably easily start a thread or three out of that. Which
as, I say is the best way to get those topics discussed here.

I have some thoughts on your question which followed (re. wasps) but will
post it separately, due to length.

Regards,
Bill

-- 
Bill Morgan
wtmorgan@pilot.msu.edu
Center for Room Temperature Confusion

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