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Is it  too late.? The gov. that say we have freedom of choice has in a
small time  taken that choice away.  you Tracy used to tell me "Sal don't 
worry you can always buy organic and  avoid these Genetically-modified
organisms ".  This is a big lie.  The USDA has already made it impossable
for anyone on earth to have a choice.  We can not get away from it.  (The
New World Power )I'm sure you all have heard about it. The USDA has already
started on an irreversible course
toward widespread application of GE crops . They are forcing other country
to take their Frankenstein foods.  Enzymes needed in food
processing are turning to GE and will not label. Food labeled organic
only have to be 95% organic meaning those not wanting to partake in GE
will not have the organic label as a choice unless they buy food that has
not been processed
because of this hidden GE component of almost all processed organic food.
Even 100% raw untreated crops are not organic because we have so messed
up the earth that there may not be any pure water or air and soon the GE
life forms will be everywhere.  The first flood of food 
to go GE are main stays. Like milk,corn and soybeans. Soon there will be
many others. Soybeans are converted into a wide variety of
food and feed products,flours,concentrates,isloates,oils,and lecithin so
roundup ready soybeans will potentially be used in organic products.
Also corn,safflower,canola etc means most sweeteners,oils,protein
concentrates,starches and many other ingredients are made from these GE
crops and will be allowed in organic products.  GE altered insects will
spread and GE plants will spread to organic growers farms.  I use to
think i could avoid GE but thanks to the USDA it will be very hard. So
Tracy don't fool the
people into thinking we have a choice.  It may be  too late for that.  The
will not label and we are the white mice once again.Remember when the US
government  injected  people with plutonium and did not tell them.
Remember the people with syphilis the government  did not tell or treat.
It is what the Government  doesn't  tell you that you have to worry about.
The inert ingredients that turn out to be worse that the poison itself.  If
they don't label how are organic folks going to stay organic. If the USDA
does not label Transgenic Organisms and products made from them how can
there be a thing called organic.  The USDA has destroyed organic food and
you want them to make organic laws.  The old catch 22 .How we going to know
what is GE and what is not. This is only my thoughts and I 
hope there is a way out of this . I don't like
them mixing up the genes.  Animals with plants etc.  I know you guys
don't care about religious beliefs and a lot of folks live by dietary laws
but where is the freedom of choice .
All the kings horses and all the kings men could not put humpty dumpty
together again.  All we are going to get from the Gov. controlling organic 
growing is a big tax and a destroyed organic movement. .  Just like the big
tax we have to pay to grow
organic in Ca.  The government will  take our money and at the same time
make it
impossible to be organic.  How can the USDA make a law and at the same time
release unlabeled GE foodstuff with out a label making it impossible to
have organic food? We have left the  fox to look after the hen
house and then we
wonder why all the hens have been eaten.  What a joke.  
The USDA is not in favor of organic growing and they are not the folks to
over organic growers as they are going in the other direction.  The USDA
are the people making it impossible to offer organic food. Anti
organic and USDA mean the same to me.  Why would anyone want the USDA to
watch over  the organic growers?  We are going one way they are going the
other.  People of the earth will be the white mice and
cannot do anything about it .  No label no choice.  The USDA is driven by
what the markets wants and they want cheep food regardless of the harm it may
cause to the earth and to mankind. Too bad as the organic label may have
been our only
hope for sustainable ag.    

 : Tracy Aquilla
wrote: : > 
: > Apparently you are unfamiliar with seed production, particularly regarding
: > lettuce. One can produce lettuce seed from multiple varieties, all
grown in
: > the same row without any cross-pollination. I know because I have done it
: > myself. Species which cross easily are either isolated by distance, or by
: > covers, cages, etc. This general pollution' theory is bogus.
: I am readily familiar with _controlled specifics_ of how to acquire seed
: that has been hand-pollinated. However, I am not talking about hand
: pollination under ideal circumstances. I'm talking about accidental
: pollination of the plant that was neglected in your neighbor's garden,
: or for that matter in your garden because, i.e. perhaps your Mom got
: cancer and you had to leave for four months to take care of her.
: > 
: > I do not believe any tomato can be purchased anywhere in the world which
: > contains a gene spliced from an animal.  If such tomatoes even exist, they
: > are currently in the experimental stage, and none has been released for
: > commercial production. Again, your imagination is getting the better of
: Again this is just an example: maybe it's not tomatoes. Maybe it's
: altered Tifway II Bermuda Grass that doesn't go dormant below freezing
: or a bacterium that inhibits frost when sprayed on apple blossoms. The
: point is that it doesn't matter which species has been polluted - it's
: loose in the wild by accident and it could cross pollinate or reproduce
: with another rogue polluted variety of the same species. There _are_
: altered species of bacteria that have been sprayed in open fields on
: apple orchards for research purposes.
: > 
: > Again, you apparently do not speak from experience. Anyone who raises
: > heirloom seeds knows how to avoid undesirable cross-pollination. If a
: > species is an outcrosser, it must be bagged, caged, or otherwise isolated,
: > regardless of the genetic make-up of your neighbor's crop. This is very
: > basic stuff.
: > 
: Not just "anyone" is aware of just how to avoid undesirable pollen.
: There are plenty of people out there who think they know what they are
: doing but don't. Under ideal circumstances with well educated
: pollinators who use proper procedures, you are correct, but there are
: plenty of sloppy growers out there. I have received seed from supposedly
: educated growers that were definitely _not_ the heirlooms in question,
: regardless of what they thought they were giving me, on more than one
: occasion. Of course I throw those seeds out, but how do you tell someone
: who is forty years your senior they aren't really growing what they
: thought they were growing for the last twenty years or that their strain
: has been polluted?
: > This argument actually gave me a good chuckle. Did you see the movie
: > of the Killer Tomatoes" recently?
: Not recently, but it is a lark, isn't it?
: > 
: > Ever heard of biocontrol? For every story you tell about the 'bad' exotic
: > species, there are many stories of the successful use of exotics as
: > biocontrol agents. Not long ago, this was seen by those with an eye for
: > environment as a rational means of reducing pesticide use. Times change
I guess.
: Beneficial insects, nematodes and bacteria used in the trade are often
: promoted because they are "annuals": They don't survive the winter in
: our climate or they cannot survive the summers - one or the other, so
: they can't get out of hand. If they become a problem, they are gone by
: next year and you don't buy them again, or you buy fewer. But look at
: the new ladybug that has been introduced from Asia. (Native beneficials
: to the US, such as Praying Mantis are primarily for aesthetics: they
: look fierce and hungry, but pound for pound they eat considerably fewer
: detrimentals than the Asian ladybugs.) The Asian ladybug has infested
: many peoples' homes in great numbers during the winter in the Southeast.
: Even if they do eat lots of aphids, etc. during the warm months, they
: are a trial through the winter. They leave bug crap all over the house -
: in cabinets, on tables, chairs, sofas and beds. Who wants to be watching
: "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" while there are no fewer than fifty lady
: bugs flying around the room, dodging every lightbulb that is on? I know
: people who spray for them. And they stink. So, "perennial" beneficial
: introductions have their negative sides too. You _will_ pay the piper,
: so to speak.
: Tracy, you may consider what I have to say as alarmist and uninformed,
: but I am a gardener and I watch what I grow very carefully. I watch the
: spread of introduced species, both beneficial and detrimental. Sometimes
: it's easier to call names and say someone is uninformed than to it is to
: question your own viewpoint. Look at it from a statistical point of view
: - like that mathematician from another movie: "Jurassic Park". There are
: no simple answers. If you mess with the variables, you always end up
: with end products which you can't expect, and some of them could eat you
: alive.
: -- 

Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org
or check out my homepage:            http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html    .