From ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:01 EDT 1994 Article: 1 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!agate!obelisk!ahern From: ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 14 Sep 1994 21:26:19 GMT Organization: The Mockle Group Lines: 1 Message-ID: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: obelisk.berkeley.edu Are there any true survivalists out there? From dputzolu@sal.cs.uiuc.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:02 EDT 1994 Article: 2 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sal!dputzolu From: dputzolu@sal.cs.uiuc.edu (David Putzolu) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 14 Sep 1994 21:39:08 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 21 Message-ID: <357qhs$l1p@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sal.cs.uiuc.edu ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes: >Are there any true survivalists out there? Probably depends on what you mean by the phrase, "survivalist." Undoubtedly, the number of "dig a bunker in the back yard against a Russian first strike" type survivalists has decreased. However, we are all survivalists, of a sort. The primary difference is one of degree - some of us just plan out how to survive the day at work; some plan how to survive such things as debilitating illness (ie, insurance); and some plan how to survive major catastrophies such as war or economic collapse. + David M. Putzolu - dputzolu@cs.uiuc.edu - My opinions only + + ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ finger for pgp2.6 public key + + "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest + + reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as + + a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. + + - Thomas Jefferson, proposed Virginia constitution, June 1776. + + 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950) + From greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:03 EDT 1994 Article: 3 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!male.EBay.Sun.COM!antizen!greg From: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com (Yes, I'm still here...) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Wilderness Medicine Course Date: 14 Sep 1994 22:01:46 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 43 Distribution: world Message-ID: <357rsa$81n@male.EBay.Sun.COM> Reply-To: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com Any disaster or civil disturbance can transform where you live into a medical W I L D E R N E S S Earthbound Medical Rescue is the current Wilderness Medicine training contractor for the Department of the Interior, Geological Survey. Earthbound is holding their Fall session Wilderness Medicine course and workshop on October 8 & 9 at Alum Rock Park in San Jose, CA from 8:30 to dark. The cost is $150.00. A discount is available for Earthbound alumni and Sierra Club members. No prerequisite is required, however prior first-aid training is helpful. A certificate of completion will be given upon completion of the course. The curriculum is the same that is currently being taught to the field personnel from the Dept. of the Interior, Geological Survey and is a specialized combination of lecture, demonstration, hands-on practicals and scenarios designed to provide participants with a focussed working knowledge and skills in first-aid required to provide care for those injured or ill hours or days away from communications with emergency medical services or care by a physician. Registration should be completed by Oct. 3. Checks should be made payable to: Earthbound Medical Rescue 390 N. 12th st. San Jose, CA 95112 For further information call 408/275-9542. From danr305@bnr.ca Thu Sep 15 18:22:03 EDT 1994 Article: 4 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!news.utdallas.edu!corpgate!crchh327.bnr.ca!danr305 From: danr305@bnr.ca (KSquare) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 14 Sep 1994 17:25:37 -0500 Organization: Fredricks of Hollywood Field Test Div. Lines: 10 Sender: danr305@bnr.ca (Kerry Kelly) Distribution: world Message-ID: <357t91$cfk@crchh7a0.bnr.ca> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: crchh7a0.bnr.ca Of what genre? Late 70's/early 80's ("Oh no! The russians are gonna nuke us!), mid->late 80's (Lets form our own religon (or governmentese: CULT)), or early->mid 90's ("Oh no! Our own Government is gonna nuke us!). Be more specific, please.... Kerry My opinions, blah, blah, blah.... From btl1@Isis.MsState.Edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:04 EDT 1994 Article: 5 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!Isis.MsState.Edu!btl1 From: btl1@Isis.MsState.Edu (Ben T. Loftis) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: What is Earthbound? Date: 14 Sep 1994 23:02:38 GMT Organization: Mississippi State University Lines: 9 Message-ID: <357vee$4tp@Tut.MsState.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: isis.msstate.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] The title says it all...... Post the answer here or send it to me directly. Thanks in advance -Ben Loftis btl1@ra.mssstate.edu From seanm@core.rose.hp.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:05 EDT 1994 Article: 6 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!ncar!csn!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon!seanm From: seanm@core.rose.hp.com (Sean Miller) Subject: What is meant by Light Aircraft Crew Sender: news@icon.rose.hp.com (News Administrator) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 22:50:59 GMT Organization: HP - Information Networks Division X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6] Lines: 8 In the description for misc.survivalism "light aircraft crew" was mentioned. Does this mean maintaining a personal ultralight type aircraft for transporta- tion during some kind of disaster? Sean Miller From sasha@aquila.dartmouth.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:06 EDT 1994 Article: 7 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!news.bu.edu!dartvax.dartmouth.edu!sasha From: sasha@aquila.dartmouth.edu (Alexander V. Khrabrov) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 15 Sep 1994 00:52:15 GMT Organization: Project NORTHSTAR, Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH Lines: 9 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3585rv$826@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: aquila.dartmouth.edu In article <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes: > Are there any true survivalists out there? Yep, I, for one, am trying to survive all the time! Alex. From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Thu Sep 15 18:22:07 EDT 1994 Article: 8 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to t.. Date: 15 Sep 1994 03:14:20 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 9 Message-ID: <358e6c$jb4$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> I hope we can all be called "true" survivalists. Survivalist theory has many niches...How about educating us as to what you think a "true" survivalist is. -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns have. From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Thu Sep 15 18:22:08 EDT 1994 Article: 9 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to t.. Date: 15 Sep 1994 03:32:45 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 30 Message-ID: <358f8t$jb4$2@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> References: <3585rv$826@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> I use the "Storm Theory". Prepare for a *BIG* storm, say a hurricane. What do you need for that kind of storm. You need a lot of different things for that situation. Now, you people in the non-hurricane areas can relate to tornados, blizzards, etc. It is the same for these situations as well. Now, take it one step further... A hurricane in which you and your family must survive 10 days without food or water...a hurricane where you and your neighbors will confront looters on a daily basis for those ten days. A struggle for life itself. Take it further...30 days...60 days. Using this theory, you will be prepared for the worst...a hurricane. Let's say that ANY other disaster comes, you are prepared. Its easy to say to friends, relatives, neighbors, and others that I am prepared for "THE STORM". Basically, what I am saying is that you don't have to have an attitude that the Russians or the CIA are coming for you...Prepare for a major "Storm" and if its a storm or Russians, or the CIA, you are prepared. I'm not saying this is definitive, but it is a good place to start. It takes away from the stigma that Survivalism is BAD. -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns have. From troy@phoenix.cs.uga.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:09 EDT 1994 Article: 10 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!pirates!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!hobbes.cc.uga.edu!phoenix.cs.uga.edu!troy From: troy@phoenix.cs.uga.edu () Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Book recommendations Date: 15 Sep 1994 04:09:08 GMT Organization: University of Georgia, Athens Lines: 16 Message-ID: <358hd4$mkq@hobbes.cc.uga.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: phoenix.cs.uga.edu I'm looking for recommendations on complete and up to date books on survivalism. Currently I've got Conway's DISASTER SURVIVAL, published in 1981. I'm looking for a more up to date copy, or something more complete. Any ideas? ___________ / \ "Send Lawyers, Guns, and lots of Money ... | R. I. P. | the shit has hit the fan." - Dennis Leary | | | Constitution | "If there had been more paranoid Jews ... | of the | there would be more Jews." - Me | United States | | of America | Troy Allen Johnson | 1787 - 1994 | troy@phoenix.cs.uga.edu \\|_______________|// From bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:09 EDT 1994 Article: 11 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!sun!oucsace!bjohnson From: bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Benjamin Johnson) Subject: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens I was told by Dr. John Coleman that there are huge numbers of Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 00:55:52 GMT Lines: 9 homosexuals in the "Christian" rightwing, such as: Eustace Mullins, author of Secrets of the Federal Reserve, allegedly arrested in New York state for sodomizing a young boy in the '50s. James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. Anyone know anything about this? I'd like to know. From rpayne@rmii.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:10 EDT 1994 Article: 12 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!potogold.rmii.com!rainbow!rpayne From: rpayne@rmii.com (Robert Payne) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 15 Sep 1994 06:48:04 GMT Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet Inc Lines: 37 Message-ID: <358qn4$93q@potogold.rmii.com> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhs$l1p@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rmii.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] David Putzolu (dputzolu@sal.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote: : ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes: : >Are there any true survivalists out there? : Probably depends on what you mean by the phrase, "survivalist." : Undoubtedly, the number of "dig a bunker in the back yard against : a Russian first strike" type survivalists has decreased. I don't believe many people fear the 'Red' threat today. : However, we are all survivalists, of a sort. The primary difference is : one of degree - some of us just plan out how to survive the day : at work; some plan how to survive such things as debilitating : illness (ie, insurance); and some plan how to survive major : catastrophies such as war or economic collapse. Rather, attention has turned to how to survive the threat posed by our own government, ala Randy Weaver, the Waco massacre, etc. The 'survivalist' has now looked to the 'organized' militias that have begun to form in various regions, concerned about that dreaded day that the knock on the door comes (or no-knock) and the agents of the government enter to sieze 'illegal' weapons and ammunition. : + "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest + : + reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as + : + a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. + : + - Thomas Jefferson, proposed Virginia constitution, June 1776. + : + 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950) + Remember! -- Robert Payne NRA Politically incorrect, and damn sure intend NRA/ILA to stay that way! CRA From ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:11 EDT 1994 Article: 13 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!terrazzo.lm.com!not-for-mail From: ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: looking for a few good people. Date: 15 Sep 1994 02:02:20 -0400 Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <358o1c$ccc@terrazzo.lm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: terrazzo.lm.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] hello, we have a new group of non-radical survivalists starting in the south west Pa. area. we talk about ways to prepare and what to do. we also practice what we learn by exploring,caving,canning,dring food ect... we need men and women alike. we deal with communications to shelters. we have found it to be easier to have a group project than evey one doing it by the,m selfs. anyone interested please e-mail me. any one who wants to exchange info, e-mail me. thanks kevin -- kevin gaudi ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com From htrst1+@pitt.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:12 EDT 1994 Article: 14 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsfeed.pitt.edu!htrst1 From: htrst1+@pitt.edu (Henry T Robertson) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Date: 15 Sep 1994 06:38:45 GMT Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 12 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: unixs2.cis.pitt.edu In article , Benjamin Johnson wrote: >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. From bhampton@golden.ncw.net Thu Sep 15 18:22:13 EDT 1994 Article: 15 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!nwnexus!golden.ncw.net!golden!bhampton From: bhampton@golden.ncw.net (Brad Hampton) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 05:47:35 GMT Organization: North Central Washington Network Lines: 19 Message-ID: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: golden.ncw.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] This area can be used to let others know about items and instruction that may be had or to express ideas to over come problems from growing plants in a guarden to hard core stuff i am in the navy on guam and am home on leave and as a citizen i can see a storm on our horizion mabe civil war? or mabe the big earth quake i don't know about you people but i like to be prepaired for emergencyes i have saved lives. ...sorry about the spelling... does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? x=1-5 5-20 20-50 50-+ is ther a rule of thum ie. for every gal. of stored fuel add 3 months? -- -------------------- bhampton@ncw.net From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:14 EDT 1994 Article: 16 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ns.mcs.kent.edu!kira.cc.uakron.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!news.cps.udayton.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!ncar!ames!lll-winken.llnl.gov!koriel!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Date: 15 Sep 1994 13:20:58 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 20 Message-ID: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 IMHO, Survival Equals = : * Water * Food * Security (=guns & concealment & non-provocative attitude) * Shelter ... In that order... Comments? =Frank= From ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:15 EDT 1994 Article: 17 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!terrazzo.lm.com!not-for-mail From: ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Book recommendations Date: 15 Sep 1994 02:59:16 -0400 Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 38 Message-ID: <358rc4$ch3@terrazzo.lm.com> References: <358hd4$mkq@hobbes.cc.uga.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: terrazzo.lm.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] troy@phoenix.cs.uga.edu wrote: > I'm looking for recommendations on complete and up to date > books on survivalism. Currently I've got Conway's DISASTER > SURVIVAL, published in 1981. I'm looking for a more up to > date copy, or something more complete. Any ideas? > ___________ > / \ "Send Lawyers, Guns, and lots of Money ... > | R. I. P. | the shit has hit the fan." - Dennis Leary > | | > | Constitution | "If there had been more paranoid Jews ... > | of the | there would be more Jews." - Me > | United States | > | of America | Troy Allen Johnson > | 1787 - 1994 | troy@phoenix.cs.uga.edu > \\|_______________|// here is a recomended list of books to read: survival family by mary and tom bergman, rr2 morgan,ut.84050 life after doomsday by bruce d. clayton passport tyo survival by ester dickey, random house,n.y. how to live on nothing by joan ransom shortney, doubleday and co. how to be prepared for any crisis, roland page, hawks publishing. putting food by, by bantam books. this is a good selection of books. any more info you may require, just e-mail me. i list premade up for anyone how wants them for medical supplies to food packs and info txt files on what to do. THE SURVIVAL NETWORK THE RED DAWN UNIT -- kevin gaudi ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com From rwalters@bu.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:17 EDT 1994 Article: 18 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!news.bu.edu!rwalters From: rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 13:38:19 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs4.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] STEPHENSON (dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote: : These kinds of things and this group made me think: : Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons : of some sort? I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't seen any posts on the subject *sigh* Maybe I'll have to post some files on the subject to straighten things out. Ron (rwalters@acs.bu.edu) P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? From rwalters@bu.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:18 EDT 1994 Article: 19 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!udel!nntp.sunbelt.net!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!gw1.att.com!news.bu.edu!rwalters From: rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Date: 15 Sep 1994 13:33:31 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 14 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> References: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs4.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Henry T Robertson (htrst1+@pitt.edu) wrote: : In article , : Benjamin Johnson wrote: : >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not : >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. : There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves : from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. *****What relevance does this have to this newsgroup? From nobody@csua.berkeley.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:18 EDT 1994 Article: 20 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!udel!nntp.sunbelt.net!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU!remailer From: Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Survivalists and Computers Date: 15 Sep 1994 13:47:26 GMT Organization: none Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.csua.berkeley.edu Errors-To: nobody@soda.berkeley.edu Originator: remailer@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU I just wanted to bring this subject up. Survivalism has many facets, but a facet people are becoming more interested in these days is the threat of fascistic goverment. One of the most important aspects of defense against this situation is communication. With the digital telephony bill about to be passed through congress that will mandate wiretap-capable phone systems, evasion of electronic eavesdropping will be crucial to this fight. Anyone concerned about this _must_ educate himself about the use of networks, encryption, and anonymity. A good first step is getting PGP (available from ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks), installing it, and making it a habit to use it. Another place to get info is gopher://chaos.bsu.edu. I heard you got a Sten. My friends and me picked up a Mini-14. I got it with a night scope and a night scope. It's cool. I heard about a gunsmith with all the tools we need to make it fully automatic. -------- For more information about this anonymous posting service,please send mail to remailer@csua.berkeley.edu with Subject: remailer-info. -------- From mdrake@mercury.interpath.net Thu Sep 15 18:22:19 EDT 1994 Article: 21 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!psinntp!unvax.union.edu!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!mercury!mdrake From: mdrake@mercury.interpath.net (Matthias Drake) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Tri-States Philosophy? Date: 15 Sep 1994 04:17:28 GMT Organization: Interpath -- Providing Internet access to North Carolina Lines: 6 Message-ID: <358hso$481@redstone.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mercury.interpath.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Does anyone know that this is? I have seen it mentioned in several survival magazines but I don't know what it is. Can someone clue me in? Thanks in advance. Matt From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Thu Sep 15 18:22:20 EDT 1994 Article: 22 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 15 Sep 1994 07:12:05 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 107 Message-ID: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> Some may wonder what survivalism is all about... Here is a sample of what you need to get started on... (This list is VERY, VERY, VERY incomplete) COMMUNICATIONS SPANISH, OTHER LANGUAGES CODES AND ENCRYPTION ELECTRONICS SIGN LANGUAGE, OTHER HAND SIGNALS RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WRITTEN CODES CLASSIFIED ADS COMMUNICATION JAMMING RADIO SIGNALS WORKING IN JAMMED AREAS MORSE CODE FARMING WILD FOODS HORSES, CARE AND RAISING PACK ANIMALS, LLAMAS, MULES, ETC. DOGS, ATTACK AND TRACKING ANIMAL HUSBANDRY SCATTER FARMING, NO ROWS INSECT CONTROL, 1800’S STYLE CROP ROTATION AND NATURAL FERTILIZERS SURVIVAL TRAPPING, SURVIVAL TOPICS WATER AND FOOD FROM DIFFERENT ECO SYSTEMS SURVIVAL, VARIOUS TERRAINS AND AREAS WATER EXTRACTION AND PRESERVATION NUTRITION VIETNAMESE ARMY TACTICS SURVIVING NUCLEAR SURVIVING BIO-WARFARE SURVIVING CHEM-WARFARE FIGHTING CHEMISTRY RELOADING GUNSMITHING SILENCERS FULL AUTO CONVERSION BOOBYTRAPS STEALTH TECHNIQUES EXPLOSIVES, REUSE HIGH EXPLOSIVES EXPLOSIVES FROM JUNK AND HOUSEHOLD ITEMS CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS FROM HOUSEHOLD ITEMS 1800’S LIFESTYLES FOOD PREPARATION FOOD PRESERVATION METAL WORKING BASKETWEAVING METALWORKING SEWING, MAKING CLOTH WOODWORKING HIDES TANNING ORIENTEERING ASTRONOMY COMPASS CORRECTIONS NIGHTTIME ORIENTEERING COVERING YOUR TRAIL MOVING GREAT DISTANCES WITH NO SIGN URBAN SURVIVAL LOCKSMITHING HOTWIRING AUTOS ALARM SYSTEMS HIGH SPEED DRIVING WEAPONS FROM JUNK BEATING INFRA RED DETECTION MOVING IN RUBBLE ENVIRONMENTS HIJACKING CONSTRUCTION 1800’S STYLE CONSTRUCTION LOG CONSTRUCTION HOMEMADE NAILS UNDERGROUND CONSTRUCTION EXCAVATION CONCEALMENT SUPPORT AND FRAMING AIR HANDLING THATCH CONSTRUCTION HOMEMADE CONCRETE HOMEMADE BRICKS BUILDING A KILN MEDICINE CREATING MEDICINES HOME REMEDIES WILD FOODS AS MEDICINES FIRST AID LONG TERM TRAUMA CARE ACCUMULATE PRESCRIPTION DRUGS MEDICAL CARE IN THE ABSCENCE OF A DOCTOR -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns have. From ncochran@perth.DIALix.oz.au Thu Sep 15 18:22:21 EDT 1994 Article: 23 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ns.mcs.kent.edu!kira.cc.uakron.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!news.cps.udayton.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!DIALix!not-for-mail From: ncochran@perth.DIALix.oz.au (Nathan Cochrane) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Hullo Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:00:05 +0800 Organization: DIALix Services, Perth, Western Australia Lines: 7 Sender: ncochran@perth.DIALix.oz.au Message-ID: <359ggl$pai$1@perth.dialix.oz.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: perth.dialix.oz.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9] Just thought I would pop my head in and see what's up. Interesting to see how th is groups evolves. From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:22 EDT 1994 Article: 24 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Date: 15 Sep 1994 08:55:57 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 27 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <359g8t$e46@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article , Benjamin Johnson wrote: >homosexuals in the "Christian" rightwing, such as: >Eustace Mullins, author of Secrets of the Federal Reserve, allegedly >arrested in New York state for sodomizing a young boy in the '50s. > >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. > >Anyone know anything about this? I'd like to know. > Well, I don't know. I doubt anyone really does. But it has been my observation that many small right-wing organizations become far too embroiled in interpersonal politics and petty disputes, and all too often results in someone or some group being labeled as "homosexuals". I'll listen to what the speakers/authors have to say and disregard any bitter and jealous rumor mongering. We simply do not have time for that. [Not that this has anything to do with survivalism, right?] ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:23 EDT 1994 Article: 25 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 09:16:35 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 61 Message-ID: <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu>, STEPHENSON wrote: > > >Hello, a girl from my church has these kooky relatives >(I say kooky, but in light of recent events...maybe not) >who are christian survivalists and they have guns and other >stuff stocked up. One of my friends got a Mak-90(sp?) >assault rifle with a couple of 30 shot banana clips. >Having the Mak-90 with the clips really won't do him much >good, though.He only has about 20 bullets for it. > >These kinds of things and this group made me think: >Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >of some sort? >I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have >food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and >that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things >you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the >survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. > >Dave >-- > >dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu > > I can't see how you could expect to live on your own for any length of time in a post-disaster or "rebellion" type of world if you weren't armed. Even in moderately small-scale disasters like hurrican andrew, there were hordes of looters attacking homeless families who were huddled in the rubble D of their homes. People become savages very easily, especially when they;re hungry. The caveat to owning deadly weapons is that you have a responsibility to know how to use them and maintain them, otherwise you're just fooling yourself and you could very likely do something stupid. One word of advice: Don't get junk. I know a lot of people are now spending $49.95 on an SKS and buying a tin of chinese ammo and now they feel they're good and ready. I don't think so. You get what you pay for, and it's also going to be very difficult to re-supply something that shoots foreign calibers. Even now, the import ban on Chinese ammo and firearms is already in effect, and a similar deal is rumored to be in the works that will cut off Russian supplies as well. So much for 7.62x39. Not to mention the corrosiveness and the fact that it's tough to reload steel case ammo. The bottom line is, select your caliber wisely (.308 is my favorite, with .30-06 second because of the AP availability) as well as your weapon. Remember, it may have to last you for years without any parts replacement available, and it'll have to last through mud and blood and beer with minimal amounts of maintenance. And don't forget that the maximum combat range of the Gun Gestapo infantryman is about 200 yards with the 5.56 NATO. Anything with greater range (such as .308 / .30-06) is a supreme tactical advantage. -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:23 EDT 1994 Article: 26 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 14 Sep 1994 17:38:59 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu>, Shane Patrick Ahern wrote: >Are there any true survivalists out there? Yes, welcome! I'm so glad this base got started, and that my positive vote actually had an effect. Congratulations to all of those others who helped get this base installed as well. Thank you! My first question/topic: What's the best form of shelter to purchase for use in a long-term "rebellion" type of open warfare? Is something like the U.S. Army's two-man shelter halves a good investment or should I simply be content with a good water-repellent sleeping bag which I can roll up into my pack harness? ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From basiji@u.washington.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:24 EDT 1994 Article: 27 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!basiji From: basiji@u.washington.edu (David Basiji) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 14:42:54 GMT Organization: University of Washington Lines: 34 Message-ID: <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stein2.u.washington.edu dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) writes: [munch] >These kinds of things and this group made me think: >Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >of some sort? >I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have >food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and >that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things >you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the >survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. Look, "survivalism" (as I define it) isn't some media-hyped 'look at the kooks' group of people convinced that Western Civilisation is doomed, etc. It's people who feel that modern societal conveniences have led people into complacency about their self-reliance. Let me ask you this: if there was an earthquake or other natural disaster that knocked out all electricity, transportation, water, etc. what would you do? Could you get your own food? Could you cook it? Obviously, the police would be stretched *way* too thin. What if someone wanted what you had, what would you do? How long could you keep this up (a day, a week, a month?) I think most people have considered these things in passing and concluded that they could sit tight for a day or even a week. What survivalists believe is that they shouldn't take anything for granted and be able to deal with such a situation for at least a month, possibly indefinitely. If you want food, you can grow it, hunt it, or steal it. Obviously, others will be doing the same thing. A gun is useful for defense as well as hunting and should be considered the tool that it is, just like a stove or a generator. David Basiji UW Bioengineering basiji@u.washington.edu From mdw@sitar.jazz.att.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:25 EDT 1994 Article: 28 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!gw1.att.com!nntpa!nntpb.cb.att.com!mdw From: mdw@sitar.jazz.att.com (Mark Wuest) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? In-Reply-To: rwalters@bu.edu's message of 15 Sep 1994 13:33:31 GMT Message-ID: Sender: news@nntpa.cb.att.com (Netnews Administration) Nntp-Posting-Host: laura.jazz.att.com Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Red Hill References: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 15:02:49 GMT Lines: 31 In article <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: >Henry T Robertson (htrst1+@pitt.edu) wrote: >:In article , >:Benjamin Johnson wrote: >:>James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >:>an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. >:There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves >:from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. >*****What relevance does this have to this newsgroup? IMHO, a significant number of White Supremacists are also into survivalism - but of the David Koresh/Armageddon/Nuclear Holocause variety. A significant number of survivalist folk (again, these are the folk for whom survival issues are more than a hobby or interest, like, say, backpacking) are also Right-Wing self-professed "Christians" Dunno why - most of them don't want to be anything like the Christ they take their name from. Well, actually, there seems to be a strong correlation between their members and the self-professed Christians who seem to be overly enamoured with the study of Armageddon (Armageddon It!). No mere coincedence, IMHO of course. Mark "Why would I want to survive Nuclear Holocaust?" Wuest -- Mark Wuest | The holy passion of friendship is of so sweet mdw@sitar.jazz.att.com | and steady and loyal and enduring a nature | that it will last through a whole lifetime, | if not asked to lend money. -- Pudd'nhead From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:26 EDT 1994 Article: 29 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!koriel!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Low Cost .. Low Tech Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:24:07 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 10 Message-ID: <359vvn$cse@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 And... Lets not forget tools, archery equipment and fishing gear. all are inexpensive and reusable... ...when you run out of MREs and Ammo... then? ...Likewise, when you run out of water purification chemicals and filters, you can still use distillation techniques etc. =Frank= P.S. MREs and Ammo fall more under the "Emergency Preparedness" category while blades, fishing gear, and archery are more toward prolonged Survival category. From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:27 EDT 1994 Article: 30 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!news1.oakland.edu!vtc.tacom.army.mil!ulowell!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: RACE AND RELIGION Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:10:21 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 4 Message-ID: <35a2md$e8g@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 DO NOT...REPEAT...DO *NOT* GET STARTED ON THIS *HERE* !!!!! ...TAKE YOUR DRIVEL SOMEWHERE ELSE! =Frank= From guillory@blkbox.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:28 EDT 1994 Article: 31 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!wupost!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Tri-States Philosophy? Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:11:47 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35a2p3$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <358hso$481@redstone.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Matthias Drake (mdrake@mercury.interpath.net) wrote: : Does anyone know that this is? I have seen it mentioned in several : survival magazines but I don't know what it is. Can someone clue me in? This refers to the philosophy of self independence and "common sense laws" as outlined in William Johnstone's Ashes series of paperbacks. If you think of it in a left/right political view it is easily confusing. More readily under stood is a x/y axis chart with one side being economic freedom and the other being personal freedom. This is more easily understood by reading the "World Smallest Political Quiz" seen on groups such as alt.activism and others. This system would be benevolent to the elderly and infirm (but they would want to as productive as possible by choice), libertarian in financial dealings, very law abiding (but the laws would be "common sense"), very much against racism, pro-choice, pro-education, pro-ecology, and generally a peacefull place to live (because all the criminals would be run out or in the cemetery. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From locasso@tis.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:29 EDT 1994 Article: 32 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:54:17 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35a1o9$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> References: <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article hel@news.bu.edu, rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: > > I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns > the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't... This group is not limited to wilderness survival. From the charter: "The goal of misc.survivalism is the sharing of ideas about the ideals of self- preservation. It is a vast topic. Emergency preparedness, outdoor survival, military, fishing, hunting, light aircraft crew, weapons (how to make, use etc...), camping, food preservation, horticulture, alternative fuels, urban struggles, home shelters... The list is as endless is as the situtations where life and death are involved." > > P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? No. Rosaria Locasso From rodneywa@triton.unm.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:30 EDT 1994 Article: 33 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.sandia.gov!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!triton.unm.edu!rodneywa From: rodneywa@triton.unm.edu (Rodney C. Ward) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: You know you're in trouble when... Date: 15 Sep 1994 10:38:14 GMT Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: triton.unm.edu I read in a sierra club mountain conquering book, that a sign that the clouds around you are about to discharge lightning is the metal (i.e. zippers, icepicks) will begin to spark and crackle with static electricity. I also read in this book that if you are in the desert and you are lost and there is no chance of a search for you, then walk in an arbitary direction and stick with it. If you are in the desert or some arid place, water will quickly take on new meaning if you run out of it. Windmills will usually provide some type of water, but I know from experience that just cuz the cows are drinking it doesn't mean you won't get sick, extremely. Most cacti will provide moisture and relief of hunger pains, just remove the thorns with fire. They will burn off easily, including those little splinters that can't be removed by hand. Running steams are usually safe to drink from unlike stale ponds which I also know from experience can only make things worse. Though most water is safe to drink if you boil it, like heat a rock real hot and put it in your container that should kill most micros. I have used water purification tablets and I don't remember any resulting sickness. I heard juice from a lemon will also purify water. Another way to get water is to collect small stones, dig a hole, put a container at the bottom of the hole, now fill it with the stones, and by mourning dew will have collected on the stones and dripped into the container. From ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:31 EDT 1994 Article: 34 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!news1.oakland.edu!vtc.tacom.army.mil!ulowell!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!obelisk!ahern From: ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:15:21 GMT Organization: The Mockle Group Lines: 6 Message-ID: <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: obelisk.berkeley.edu Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:32 EDT 1994 Article: 35 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: PLEASE! KEEP OUR SUBJECT MATTER PURE Date: 15 Sep 1994 20:11:20 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35a9p8$g7p@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 This news group is less than one day old and folks with a political agenda are already dropping their little eggs over here. Please help in discouraging this sort of activity or this group will not have any specific personality...ALSO... There are "shills" or people who are enemies of our mindset who will try to poison this group by trying to drum up responses to ugly, hateful, or counterproductive topics. Be aware that there are those in the government and anti-gun arena that would like nothing more than to discredit us. Please admonish and discourage these individuals before they get a foothold! I hate even needing to post *THIS* message because it does not provide valuable technical info or knowledge *BUT* it does have everything to do with the *SURVIVAL* of this group as a unique and usful forum. I hope this is the very last time I will have to stray so far from the business at hand and I hope you will all support this view and discourage the dilution of our pure intent. FINALLY, I own lots of guns and stronly believe they are very relavent to this forum BUT lets try to keep our discussion to how they relate to Survival only... If the thread digresses into how to reload or fix a gun or the politics of gun control then PLEASE move the discussion to where it belongs AND if you witness this, please tell the participants to do so promptly. If you see a subject in another group which you think would interest US, please tell us about it and we will go over there to read and talk about it... I'M sure I have made myself amply clear... AGREED? *Quite* enough said!, =Frank= P.S. I encourage all to freely participate in other groups and to tell us (BRIEFLY) if we should go over there and get involved...and no more! From locasso@tis.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:32 EDT 1994 Article: 36 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!news1.oakland.edu!vtc.tacom.army.mil!ulowell!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:00:28 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35a23s$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> References: <359d76$c4c@ceylon.gte.com> Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article c4c@ceylon.gte.com, alb0@roger.gte.com (Andrew Betz) writes: > > not long, unless you use a fuel stabilizer! your stored fuel will > form shellac and all other sorts of weird compounds after a time. What is the result of using gas that contains shellac and other compounds? Is it just like "dirty" gas, that is, it works but not well, and eventually clogs the carburetor? Or will it not run an engine at all? What is shellac, anyway? Rosaria Locasso From bkives@superior.carleton.ca Thu Sep 15 18:22:33 EDT 1994 Article: 37 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!cunews!superior!bkives From: bkives@superior.carleton.ca (Bartley Kives) Subject: Survivalists in Winnipeg? Message-ID: Sender: news@cunews.carleton.ca (News Administrator) Organization: Carleton University X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 18:18:00 GMT Lines: 23 Hello. I'm looking for survivalists who live in and/or around the Winnipeg area who'd be willing to talk about their lifestyle for the purposes of a newspaper story. When I was working for the Sun in Winnipeg over the past summer, most self-professed survivalists were a bit hesitant about talking to the media. Maybe I was just hanging out in the wrong environment -- I highly doubt all (if any) of you conform to the pop-culture stereotype that portrays you as secretive folks decked out in fatigues. Talk to you soon. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Bartley Kives -- Writer, bass player, reformed nihilist. (Winnipeg & Grand Beach, Manitoba -- Ottawa, Ontario) bkives@ccs.carleton.ca From sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Thu Sep 15 18:22:34 EDT 1994 Article: 38 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!sybok From: sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 16:58:35 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 25 Message-ID: <359ufr$q81@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: m1-142-11.mit.edu In article <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) writes: >Hello, a girl from my church has these kooky relatives >(I say kooky, but in light of recent events...maybe not) >who are christian survivalists and they have guns and other >stuff stocked up. One of my friends got a Mak-90(sp?) >assault rifle with a couple of 30 shot banana clips. You must mean a so-called "assault rifle". Real assault rifles are select fire (machine guns), and hard to get. The Mak-90 is a semi-auto. >Having the Mak-90 with the clips really won't do him much >good, though.He only has about 20 bullets for it. Bullets? You mean rounds (bullet+casing+powder+primer)? He made a good choice, since the gun and mags have been banned but he can still get more ammo (at least for now). >These kinds of things and this group made me think: >Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >of some sort? I hope so. I came here from the gun group. I figure, I'll need something to eat and drink when I go out "hunting" each day. :-) From alb0@roger.gte.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:35 EDT 1994 Article: 39 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!ceylon!roger.gte.com!alb0 From: alb0@roger.gte.com (Andrew Betz) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 12:03:50 GMT Organization: Idaho City University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <359d76$c4c@ceylon.gte.com> References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: roger.gte.com In article <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net>, >does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? not long, unless you use a fuel stabilizer! your stored fuel will form shellac and all other sorts of weird compounds after a time. properly stabilized fuel is good for at least a year, probably longer. i say a year because i stabilized some and used it a year later with no problems whatsoever. like most stored items, its probably better to rotate stock periodically. drew -- alb0@gte.com "The new Gestapo in America." -- Gerry Spence on the BATF From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Thu Sep 15 18:22:36 EDT 1994 Article: 40 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best Periodicals and Books? Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:38:45 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 37 Message-ID: <35a0r5$e50@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article 25J@netcom.com, vtan@netcom.com (Victor Tan) writes: >What are the best periodicals and books out there on survivalism? > >I've only seen 1 magazine but it was thin. > >Admittedly, there are different kinds of survivalism, > >Urban - major city, suburbs, etc >Wilderness - Desert, Mountainous, Wooded, Prarie etc >Situational - Earthquake, Hurricane, Injuries, Riots, Lost, War, > Bad weather, etc > >Anyone care to comment on what books or rags to recommend and what >categories they then to aim at? Perhaps not surprisingly, you can find lots of interesting books on survival in health food type stores, or some alternate religion type stores. Don't be offended by my choice of words, but hanging out in what I can best describe as "hippy stores", or young peoples stores, can find you lots of interesting things. For example locally there is a comic store that carrys lots of Loompanics books. Tower Books also carrys a few, as well as lots of books on herbalism, camping, guns, electronic countermeasures, etc. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From alb0@roger.gte.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:37 EDT 1994 Article: 41 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!ceylon!roger.gte.com!alb0 From: alb0@roger.gte.com (Andrew Betz) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: FBI (THIS IS *NOT* TALK.POLITICS.GUNS!!!) Date: 15 Sep 1994 20:05:35 GMT Organization: Idaho City University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <35a9ef$i4m@ceylon.gte.com> References: <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: roger.gte.com In article <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com>, > THIS IS AN INFORMATIONAL GROUP and should not contain political topics >unless they apply DIRECTLY to this group! A political topic that WOULD >P.S. I am totally sympathetic and interested in your opinions and point >of view... I just don't want to have to wade through a bunch of crap to >find valuable technical info regarding preparedness...thanks, really! good points. however, fbi-bashing should go to alt.politics.org.fbi instead of t.p.g. drew -- alb0@gte.com "The new Gestapo in America." -- Gerry Spence on the BATF From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Thu Sep 15 18:22:38 EDT 1994 Article: 42 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: [ADVERT.] hammocks, ponchos, books, etc. for sale. Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:43:03 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 32 Message-ID: <35a137$e50@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com Last year I formed a small business to allow me to share my ideas about survivalism and outdoor living with people. I only sell thins which I use, or books which I've found worthwhile, and my catalog is rather small right now. I sell items which I consider to be multi-purpose items, including the following: compact, lightweight, hammocks. military ponchos & liners Space blankets (and Space bags) knives, fire-starters, signalling devices, books on survival, firearmms, etc. (I'm a Palladin dealer). If you're interested in these things send me email and I'll mail you a catalog. In the meantime I'll try to start posting some things of general interest. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From guillory@blkbox.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:39 EDT 1994 Article: 43 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:39:33 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 44 Message-ID: <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Ronald Walters (rwalters@bu.edu) wrote: : I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns : the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't : seen any posts on the subject *sigh* Maybe I'll have to : post some files on the subject to straighten things out. Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. I think we do ourselve a disservice when we say "this is real survivalism" or "that is real survivalism. It's all survivalism. We may have our favorite areas to study but none are better than others. If you fly planes frequently you need air crew survival, if you boat you need water survival, if you go in the woods you need woodland survival, if you live in the city you need urban survival. BUT at some point you may need some or all of the others. : P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? I hope not. I have seen other groups die because a moderator became a control freak. What would happen if a moderator gained control who was a stereotypical "survivalist" and didn't believe that "woodlands" survival was "true"? I for one though am looking forward to your postings concerning outdoor or woodlands survival. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From guillory@blkbox.com Thu Sep 15 18:22:39 EDT 1994 Article: 44 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:45:40 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <35a4ok$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] J Moschell (72714.3044@CompuServe.COM) wrote: : Some may wonder what survivalism is all about... : Here is a sample of what you need to get started on... : (This list is VERY, VERY, VERY incomplete) Excellent list!! Good work! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody@csua.berkeley.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:40 EDT 1994 Article: 45 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU!remailer From: Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: The Gun Ban Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:06:54 GMT Organization: none Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.csua.berkeley.edu Errors-To: nobody@soda.berkeley.edu Originator: remailer@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU Actually, this post is just a request for information, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the impending gun ban. Does anyone know where the blueprints for various firearms are available? The patent has expired on many of the most useful guns, such as the Colt 1911, the AK-47, the Galil, etc, so this information probably isn't secret. Companies like Wilsen's must have gotten access to the 1911 blueprints so they can make accessories for it, right? How did they get it? Or would a person have to get out calipers and do his own blueprint? Thanks I stole a MAK. I also found an 80-round drum magazine from China and a night scope. My friend knows about a really good gunsmith with all the tools we need to make it fully automatic. -------- For more information about this anonymous posting service,please send mail to remailer@csua.berkeley.edu with Subject: remailer-info. -------- From honig@ics.uci.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:41 EDT 1994 Article: 46 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!not-for-mail From: honig@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 12:52:52 -0700 Organization: UC Disneyland, in the Kingdom of Bren Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35a8mk$ifh@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> Reply-To: honig@ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) NNTP-Posting-Host: buckaroo.ics.uci.edu bhampton@golden.ncw.net (Brad Hampton) writes: >does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? >x=1-5 > 5-20 > 20-50 > 50-+ >is ther a rule of thum ie. for every gal. of stored fuel add 3 months? > I didn't know it expired. Is it oxygen-induced? If so, topping off your resivoir with CO2 or N2 would help. dh -- David A. Honig, informivore In a world of compromise, some don't. ---Heckler & Koch "Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?" - C. D. Tavares From gannon@sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu Thu Sep 15 18:22:42 EDT 1994 Article: 47 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu!nntp.ucsb.edu!sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu!gannon From: gannon@sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu (Mark Andrew Gannon) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: FBI Date: 15 Sep 94 20:37:11 GMT Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara Lines: 61 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <35a435$11l@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes: >Are the FBI, the National Guard, the military or other government agencies >preparing tatical plans to combat citizens who resist or rebel against >the government? Are they investigating groups? It seems like the Waco >incident indicates that the government is investigating and infiltrating >groups that leagally stockpile weapons. Good observation. Actually, the US Gov't has a long, sordid history of crushing any group that has anything but a strongly pro-US-Gov't position, as soon as such a group starts to become effective or popular. The FBI's COINTELPRO (CounterIntelligence Program) is one of the most hideous examples. I recommend the small paperback book _War at Home_, which gives some interesting history and details of COINTELPRO. The Government moved swiftly and with extreme force to crush the Black Panther Party for Self Defense in the 1960s and early 70s. This is not so surprising- the Panthers were patrolling Oakland with shotguns and lawbooks, protecting the people from police abuse. What is a bit surprising is the amount of force (and money) that is being used against Food Not Bombs, a group which is not stockpiling weapons or chanting "Off the Pigs!" in the streets, but which seeks only to feed the homeless. >In a rebellion situation, which branch of the armed forces would be called >upon to supress it? Is it ever concievable that the military could divide >into opposing factions during a rebellion, or is the chain of command so >strong that orders from the Commander in Cheif would never be disobeyed? >I heard a reference on the radio to a study, Presidential Directive 13 or >somthing like that, on the willingness of new military recruits to >combat U.S. citizens if necessary, and that a high percentage of them >said they would. Scary, but not a bit surprising. Our indoctrination system (ie the schools) is really effective. And once you hit the military, you get the same thing, but it's violently pounded into your head 24-7. I'd be surprised if more than a handful would say they were unwilling to combat US citizens. After all, the gov't would just make up a label for whatever group of citizens was rebelling: "communists," "anarchists," "terrorists," or, like at Waco, "child abusers." Then the folks in the army would see themselves as helping protect all the rest of the people of the US against these "dangerous subversives." --Mark aka John Brown :-b ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Huey P. Newton, Minister of Defense of the Black Panther Party, the baddest motherfucker ever to set foot in history. Huey P. Newton, the brother, black man, a nigger, the descendant of slaves, who stood up in the heart of the ghetto, at night, in alleys, confronted by racist pigs with guns and said: "My name is Huey P. Newton. I'm the Minister of Defense of the Black Panther Party. I'm standing on my constitutional rights. I'm not going to allow you to brutalize me. I'm going to stop you from brutalizing my people. You got your gun, pig, I got mine. If you shoot at me, I'm shooting back." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "NEVER do second order perturbation theory." --Toby Falk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mcalvert@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA Thu Sep 15 18:41:18 EDT 1994 Article: 48 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!spartan.ac.BrockU.CA!mcalvert From: mcalvert@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Murray Brain Calvert) Subject: Reinforced Concrete Specifications? Message-ID: <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9] Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 19:08:39 GMT Lines: 10 I am planning to build an earth-sheltered house in the country (None of your business where!). I would like the structure to withstand a major earthquake or atomic blast from 10 miles away. I estimate that the load could be 2000 pounds per square foot. Has anyone out there built a reinforced concrete structure that could advise me on references for structural engineering? Also I can't find much about design life, i.e. how long before the rebar rusts. Brian From mark@newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM Thu Sep 15 18:41:19 EDT 1994 Article: 49 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!psinntp!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM!newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM!not-for-mail From: mark@newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM (KP) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 15 Sep 1994 15:19:31 -0400 Organization: Eastman Kodak Company Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35a6o3$4bl@newkodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newkodak.rdcs.kodak.com In article <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: >I heard you got a Sten. My friends and me picked up a Mini-14. I got >it with a night scope and a night scope. It's cool. I heard about a >gunsmith with all the tools we need to make it fully automatic. One MUST remember that a fully automatic wepon without the proper FFL is just cause for a visit somewhere where the only survival tools are hard protective covers for your rectum! You were discussing communications security, but where do you think that various government agencies will be looking for information about people and ideas? It will be HERE and in rec.guns. It might be a good idea to go a little lighter on obvious criminal ideas that might be associated with a name and internet address! In a lot of states night vision technology MOUNTED on a rifle is also a no-no. I do not know the laws of your state. I keep a hand held infrared viewer with a good lense installed for night use, and for my rifle, Rem 700vs .380 I put on a 56mm low light scope. I have found that using the viewer to look through the scope works and that you can see over the sights of a handgun just fine with it at night. I have never fired when using the viewer, but I was interested in trying it in as many ways as possible. From algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Thu Sep 15 18:41:20 EDT 1994 Article: 50 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!att-out!oucsace!ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu!ALGEO From: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (the virtual valkyrie) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Sender: news@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (news account) Reply-To: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Organization: Ohio University Computing & Technology Services References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> ,<35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 20:55:28 GMT Lines: 18 In article <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes: >Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications >in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as >constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? I for one am not counting on Usenet or the Internet to survive a major disaster such as a nuclear holocaust. Even a local disaster such as a major flood would probably destroy my personal net.access. Good ol' radios might be our best best for reestablishing communications. What say the rest of you? -- Melissa Algeo algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu algeo@monolith.mit.edu From london@.unc.edu Thu Sep 15 18:41:21 EDT 1994 Article: 51 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!!london From: london@.unc.edu (Larry London) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: PLEASE! KEEP OUR SUBJECT MATTER PURE Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:44:45 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 32 Message-ID: <35aiot$1366@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> References: <35a9p8$g7p@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: calzone.oit.unc.edu In article <35a9p8$g7p@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank Langham wrote: >=Frank= >P.S. I encourage all to freely participate in other groups and to tell >us (BRIEFLY) if we should go over there and get involved...and no more! See: alt.sustainable.agriculture alt.agriculture.misc alt.agriculture.fruit bionet.plants rec.gardens misc.rural alt.energy.renewable alt.folklore.herbs alt.architecture.alternative alt.housing.nontrad - london@sunSITE [I archive all posts (except the dreaded political, racist, off-topic ones) in this misc.survivalism at sunSITE.unc.edu.] Anonymous FTP info: ftp sunSITE.unc.edu cd pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture cd discussion-groups/newsgroups/misc.survivalism see also: misc.survivalism-protofaq [under construction] and: pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/energy-resources pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare From abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:04 EDT 1994 Article: 52 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!abrez From: abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:05:03 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL Lines: 18 Message-ID: <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu In article <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank Langham wrote: > >...Comments/Additions? >=Frank= I would add Radio Receiver (ham or cb or both). Obviously, lotsa batteries for the above. Aaron Brezenski "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me." Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati "If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion." "... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" From dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:05 EDT 1994 Article: 53 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!crcnis1.unl.edu!s-cwis.unomaha.edu!s-cwis.unomaha.edu!dstephen From: dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 07:03:56 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska Omaha Lines: 25 Message-ID: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: @s-cwis.unomaha.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Hello, a girl from my church has these kooky relatives (I say kooky, but in light of recent events...maybe not) who are christian survivalists and they have guns and other stuff stocked up. One of my friends got a Mak-90(sp?) assault rifle with a couple of 30 shot banana clips. Having the Mak-90 with the clips really won't do him much good, though.He only has about 20 bullets for it. These kinds of things and this group made me think: Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons of some sort? I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. Dave -- dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu From lovecraf@infinet.com Thu Sep 15 21:05:06 EDT 1994 Article: 54 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!lovecraf From: lovecraf@infinet.com (Ed Michalski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 15:59:57 GMT Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410) Lines: 17 Message-ID: <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com> References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> <359d76$c4c@ceylon.gte.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Andrew Betz (alb0@roger.gte.com) wrote: : In article <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net>, : >does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? There are certain gas additives which can prolong the life of stored gasoline far greater than our lifetimes. -- Ed / Home is where you hang your hat. / I feel so broke up, I want to go home. /_____ ovecraft@infinet.com From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Thu Sep 15 21:05:07 EDT 1994 Article: 55 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:29:50 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 8 Message-ID: <35ahsu$8sa$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> References: <35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu> Try Lehman's Catalog for a start on 1800's living. Phone number is 216-857-5757 -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns have. From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Thu Sep 15 21:05:08 EDT 1994 Article: 56 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: CASE MREs (SPECIFICATION AND MFG DATE?) Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:13:31 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 4 Message-ID: <359vbr$cse@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 If you are selling MREs etc. on this group, please include specifications and date of manufacture. THNX =Frank= From wb9omc@constellation.ecn.purdue.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:09 EDT 1994 Article: 57 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!mozo.cc.purdue.edu!constellation.ecn.purdue.edu!wb9omc From: wb9omc@constellation.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:20:17 GMT Organization: Purdue University Lines: 109 Message-ID: <359voh$ij8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: constellation.ecn.purdue.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) basiji@u.washington.edu (David Basiji) writes: >dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) writes: >[munch] >>These kinds of things and this group made me think: >>Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >>of some sort? >>I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have >>food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and >>that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things >>you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the >>survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. >Look, "survivalism" (as I define it) isn't some media-hyped >'look at the kooks' group of people convinced that Western Civilisation >is doomed, etc. It's people who feel that modern societal conveniences >have led people into complacency about their self-reliance. Let me ask I don't think you could have said it much better. Look what happened earlier this week when a simple wiring failure paralyzed the air traffic system that so many "take-for-granteds" have come to rely on. When shit happens that exposes the "scumgene" in some people, it would be nice not to be killed or get the snot beat out of you. Ask Reginald Denny what HE thought of the LA riots. You cannot rely on the understaffed "police" to be able to save you - if you want to SURVIVE, you need to be prepared for it, and in some of these cases that means, YES, being armed sufficiently to survive. >you this: if there was an earthquake or other natural disaster that >knocked out all electricity, transportation, water, etc. what would you >do? Could you get your own food? Could you cook it? Obviously, the police >would be stretched *way* too thin. What if someone wanted what you had, >what would you do? How long could you keep this up (a day, a week, a month?) >I think most people have considered these things in passing and concluded >that they could sit tight for a day or even a week. What survivalists >believe is that they shouldn't take anything for granted and be able to >deal with such a situation for at least a month, possibly indefinitely. >If you want food, you can grow it, hunt it, or steal it. Obviously, >others will be doing the same thing. A gun is useful for defense as >well as hunting and should be considered the tool that it is, just like >a stove or a generator. And as somebody else pointed out, select your weapon for reliability, and your ammo for availability (and something you can stock fairly inexpensively - make the most of the resources you've got). As one interesting example, there is the Ruger 10/22. A lot of people will tell you that they are cheap and they suck, not being especially accurate. But everyone *I* know that owns one tells me that while this is true to a certain extent, it is simple to maintain (e.g., not a complex rifle) and shoots .22LR which has got to be one of the most common pieces of ammo around. Geez, you can buy the stuff by the gob at *Kmart*. Now..... .22LR isn't the greatest thing in the world for self-defense. You can shoot somebody and they will keep going unless either your aim is REAL good or you get a lucky vital hit. BUT, if your goal is survival you are likely to be spending more of your time looking for food than shooting other people. Likely a lot of the food you might be hunting for will be small game (rabbits, etc.) that a large caliber rifle (or pistol) will simply turn into so much red and pink spray. There are other .22's that fall into this category - inexpensive, easy to keep up, reasonably reliable and cheap to stock ammo for. To go for small game for food, the .22 is a good bet. You don't need to turn it into the "assault gun from hell" for this purpose. Gonna hunt bigger critters like deer? .30-06 is a good choice, and aside from the hunting applications, can be an effective man-stopper at long range if need be. Also not hard to find ammo, either. Don't want to make a big BANG and draw attention to the deer you're bringing down? Proficiency with a compound bow will take care of THAT problem. While you may have to chase your deer before it drops, at least everyone within Xity number of square miles won't know that you're about to eat, when maybe they aren't. (and I dare say that popping an arrow into a tree near someones head will DEFINITELY get their attention.....) My gut feeling is that most of the time any confrontation with another human being is likely to be at a *close* range. Using a .30-06 inside of 100 yards seems like a waste, to *me*. For close in defense there is nothing like a well-built, reliable handgun for speed of draw, ease of use and carry. Some might suggest a short-barrelled 12 gauge shotgun.....well, it'll stop somebody but can be physically unwieldy in certain situations. I think I'd rather have the 12 gauge as an adjunct hunting tool, myself, although not ruling out its use for defense. A lot of folks will tell you that there is nothing like the .357 magnum for raw take-down power. Recently, 9mm has been gaining in popularity as well. Now having said all of the above. I'm not a nut with the entire US arsernal in my home, waiting to overthrow the government. Nor do I have a desire to kill *anybody*. But I *don't* feel like sitting on my ass waiting for somebody to do it to ME. IF and WHEN a major disaster of some type occurs, properly prepared *citizens* ought to be ready to serve as law and order - because if the magnitude of the disaster is great enough, "government" will simply be a sad artifact of life BEFORE...... Duane From yooho@ursula.ic.cmc.ca Thu Sep 15 21:05:09 EDT 1994 Article: 58 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!msuinfo!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.ccs.queensu.ca!venus!ursula!yooho From: yooho@ursula.ic.cmc.ca (Yoo Ho Cho) Subject: Re: talk about this? Message-ID: <1994Sep15.143935.5358@venus.cmc.ca> Sender: usenet@venus.cmc.ca (News Administrator) Nntp-Posting-Host: ursula Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 14:39:35 GMT Lines: 24 In article <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> bhampton@golden.ncw.net (Brad Hampton) writes: [ stuff deleted ] > >does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? >x=1-5 > 5-20 > 20-50 > 50-+ >is ther a rule of thum ie. for every gal. of stored fuel add 3 months? > > >-- >-------------------- >bhampton@ncw.net This really depends on the use for the fuel. For an outboard, I've been told to use a stabilizer to prevent gumming if I have any gas left over until next boating season. Never have and the diminished performance of the outboard I've always atributed to a higher oil/gas ratio caused by the gas evaporating. But no idea on how long it will "keep". YHC From vtan@netcom.com Thu Sep 15 21:05:10 EDT 1994 Article: 59 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!vtan From: vtan@netcom.com (Victor Tan) Subject: Best Periodicals and Books? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 15:47:49 GMT Lines: 15 What are the best periodicals and books out there on survivalism? I've only seen 1 magazine but it was thin. Admittedly, there are different kinds of survivalism, Urban - major city, suburbs, etc Wilderness - Desert, Mountainous, Wooded, Prarie etc Situational - Earthquake, Hurricane, Injuries, Riots, Lost, War, Bad weather, etc Anyone care to comment on what books or rags to recommend and what categories they then to aim at? - Victor Tan From velkey@selway.umt.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:11 EDT 1994 Article: 60 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!selway.umt.edu!not-for-mail From: velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Date: 15 Sep 1994 09:26:35 -0600 Organization: University of Montana, Missoula Lines: 44 Message-ID: <359p3b$hg1@selway.umt.edu> References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu In article <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu>, Rodney C. Ward wrote: [stuff deleted] >Though most water is safe to drink if you boil it, like heat a rock >real hot and put it in your container that should kill most micros. You have to boil water for a min. of 5 mins. to make sure all micros are dead. >I have used water purification tablets and I don't remember any resulting >sickness. These work only against bio-agents. Hazardous chemicals (pesticides, heavy metals, toxic waste) can only be removed by filtering (unless you can assay the sample and figure out which chemicals you need to neutralize that stuff). >I heard juice from a lemon will also purify water. NOT TRUE. The citric acid in lemons, limes, etc. will NEUTRALIZE iodine, eliminating that "Metallic" taste. I keep a vial with iodine tabs in one end and vitamin c tabs in the other in my "Oh, Shit!" kit. Another >way to get water is to collect small stones, dig a hole, put a container >at the bottom of the hole, now fill it with the stones, and by mourning >dew will have collected on the stones and dripped into the container. I think you are after the solar still idea here. You dig a hole several times greater in diameter than your container (#10 cans are great, but you can use anything, pie plate, air cleaner lid, hubcap, you get the picture). You place your container at the bottom of the hole and, if available, put a piece of tubing down in the bottom. Then, lay a sheet of plastic, nylon, car headliner, whatever over the hole. Weight the edges of the sheet in place and place a stone in the center. Water will condense and drip down into the container. In a long-term survival situation, I would boil this water and/or filter it just to be safe. In an emergency, it should be potable. Andrew J. Velkey Dept of Psychology, Univ of MT Grad Student, etc. From velkey@selway.umt.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:12 EDT 1994 Article: 61 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!selway.umt.edu!not-for-mail From: velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Date: 15 Sep 1994 09:34:41 -0600 Organization: University of Montana, Missoula Lines: 40 Message-ID: <359pih$ivc@selway.umt.edu> References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu In article <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank Langham wrote: >IMHO, > > Survival Equals = : > > * Water > > * Food > > * Security (=guns & concealment & non-provocative attitude) > > * Shelter > >... In that order... Comments? > I would say that a gun need not necessarily be of a concealable type to be useful. A rifle will serve this purpose much better. A handgun (the type of gun usually concealed) is **relatively** ineffective in a survival situation. You can't protect yourself against very large threats (Bears, Moose, etc.) and, unless you're Wyatt Earp or something, you are not going to have very successful hunting. A .22 LR will bring down a ton of varmint for eating, clothing, etc, the ammo is lightweight, and is relatively inexpensive (you can stockpile alot of it). A shotgun would be equally useful here. Note that you are going to be unable to protect yourself against the aforementioned threats without a high-powered rifle. Please note that this is a general statement. I certainly do not intend to start a trite little thread of anecdotes about people shooting bears in the eyes at 100yds with their S&W .38 spl. I am trying to convey what I feel is the superiority of rifles/shotguns over handguns in a survival situation. A handgun would be better than no gun, but there are better options. Andrew J. Velkey Dept of Psychology, Univ. of MT Grad Student, etc. From honig@ics.uci.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:13 EDT 1994 Article: 62 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!not-for-mail From: honig@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: comments: what's needed, and when Date: 15 Sep 1994 10:33:22 -0700 Organization: UC Disneyland, in the Kingdom of Bren Lines: 20 Message-ID: <35a0h2$hlr@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> References: <3585rv$826@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> <358f8t$jb4$2@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> Reply-To: honig@ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) NNTP-Posting-Host: buckaroo.ics.uci.edu J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> writes: >I use the "Storm Theory". Prepare for a *BIG* storm, say a Out here, the "storm"-analogues are riots and quakes. In both cases you have no police. In both cases you have armed motorized gangs, potentially from other countries even. In the midwest, you have floods and twisters. Also stray hurricanes. Finally, I would add to someone's previous list of necessities, a small 9v radio and flashlight. dh -- David A. Honig, informivore In a world of compromise, some don't. ---Heckler & Koch "Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?" - C. D. Tavares From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Thu Sep 15 21:05:14 EDT 1994 Article: 63 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> <359voh$ij8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 21:11:05 GMT Lines: 16 I like Duane Mantick and David Basiji's attitudes, and I agree about the .22 ...after feeding $16+ into my glock at the range time after time I grew to miss buying .22 cartridges in those terrific little "milk carton" containers by the 500 count for $6 or so! Duane (and others) do you have any experience with the .30-.30? Is lever action reliable? It seemed to me like a good compromise between rabbit caliber and man-stopper, and the rifles I have seen are generally shorter in overall length--more easily handled in close quarters. What are your opinions, if any? Regards Robert Holder Denver, Colorado From petro@artn.iit.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:14 EDT 1994 Article: 64 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!iitmax!artn!petro From: petro@artn.iit.edu (Christopher Petro) Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Message-ID: <1994Sep15.224209.2894@iitmax.iit.edu> Sender: news@iitmax.iit.edu (News) Organization: (Art)^n Laboratory X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 22:42:09 GMT Lines: 22 Thomas Woolman (woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu) wrote: : The caveat to owning deadly weapons is that you have a responsibility to : know how to use them and maintain them, otherwise you're just fooling : yourself and you could very likely do something stupid. The other thing to remember, is that you have to be prepared mentally to kill somebody. YOU HAVE TO BE READY TO SHOOT. : select your caliber wisely (.308 is my favorite, with .30-06 second because : of the AP availability) as well as your weapon. Remember, it may have to : last you for years without any parts replacement available, and it'll have : to last through mud and blood and beer with minimal amounts of maintenance. : And don't forget that the maximum combat range of the Gun Gestapo infantryman : is about 200 yards with the 5.56 NATO. Anything with greater range (such as : .308 / .30-06) is a supreme tactical advantage. Uh.. I really ain't sure who the "Gun Gestapo" are, but the U.S. Marines practice out to 500 meters with the M-16. Also, remember as long as the cops have guns, you can get one when you need one. From guillory@blkbox.com Thu Sep 15 21:05:15 EDT 1994 Article: 65 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:23:34 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 31 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35ae0m$sb2@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <359d76$c4c@ceylon.gte.com> <35a23s$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Rosaria Locasso (locasso@tis.com) wrote: : What is the result of using gas that contains shellac and other compounds? : Is it just like "dirty" gas, that is, it works but not well, and eventually : clogs the carburetor? Or will it not run an engine at all? What is shellac, : anyway? While the formation of varnish is a problem some is tolerable with frequent cleaning of the carburetor in a fuel injected engine this would be a big problem. (I know why would you pick a fuel injected car for this situation? Well, cars with carbs are getting fewer and fewer since car company can improve their CAFE [corporate average fuel efficiency] easily with injection. Plus what if you had to "pick one up after you ariginal was destroyed?) Another problem is that agents blended into gasoline (butane and etheline I think) out gas from the mixture in a year or two. These compounds make better horse power, increase octane. In addition the percentage increased in the winter to help cars start better. Alway buy storage gas in the winter for this reason. Long term storage of diesel has another problem. Some bacteria are partial to the the parrafins blended in diesel and beak them down. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Thu Sep 15 21:05:16 EDT 1994 Article: 66 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is meant by Light Aircraft Crew Date: 15 Sep 1994 12:08 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: <15SEP199412083547@pavo.concordia.ca> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo5.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article , seanm@core.rose.hp.com (Sean Miller) writes... >In the description for misc.survivalism "light aircraft crew" was mentioned. >Does this mean maintaining a personal ultralight type aircraft for transporta- >tion during some kind of disaster? Well, I guess it _could_ mean that - but it was not the original intent. Light airfraft (both commercial and recreational) frequent areas which aren't all that populated. Some crew on these flights were interested in topics related to crashes in remote areas. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Thu Sep 15 21:05:17 EDT 1994 Article: 67 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Freqently Asked Questions, the misc.survivalism FAQ Date: 15 Sep 1994 12:12 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 67 Distribution: world Message-ID: <15SEP199412122964@pavo.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo5.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 Welcome to the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for misc.survivalism! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ More than just a list of questions and answers, FAQ's are short introductions to the community that subscribe to the newsgroup. In misc.survivalism, we discuss survival theory. If there was one line we could lift out of our charter to sum up the group it would be, "The prevailing philosophy of misc.survivalism is that I and the ones I love want to remain alive no matter what." Q) What can we talk about on misc.survivalism? A) Anything to do with survival theory, including emergency prepardness. Need plans for a shelter? Ask. Fly an aircraft and want to know what to what to pack "just in case"? Ask. Hate firearms and want to spout off? _Don't_ ask - see next question. Q) What _don't_ you talk about in misc.survivalism? A) There are two main categories of posting _not_ appreciated on m.s. There is no moderator on this group - we like it that way. Post things in these two categories and you will get lots of hate mail... 1) Personal objections to theory which do not include survivalist/ emergency prepardness material. For example, if one person describes his technique for food hoarding - and you think it immoral - write to him or her in email. Don't put it on the group. Same thing about firearms, we're not pro- or anti-gun as a group. Individual members who wish to talk about that topic can go to talk.politics.guns. If someone posts something about survivalist therory which you believe is _technically_ wrong (like description of an edible plant for example) then go ahead and discuss that. 2) Postings which have nothing to do with our group. Don't spam us with ads for skin cream, lottery tickets, x-rated videos etc... Keep on topic, flames belong in alt.flame or through email. Q) Who's reading this group? A) There were over 400 people who voted for this group's creation. When I was starting this up, I met many of them through email. They come from as far away as Germany and Australia and from all walks of life. They are weekend campers, Boy Scout leaders, officers and enlisted men from armies all around the globe, or just people concerned with their safety. Something that surprised me (that really shouldn't have) is the number of women who mailed me during the groups proposal. Q) I have a question not covered by this FAQ. A) I'm sure there are lots. This FAQ is still in its infancy. So for now, follow the above rules and you'll be fine. Questions I see repeated often will be added here. Q) Who are you? A) I am the proposer of misc.survivalism. For now I also do the FAQ, this might change if someone else wants the job... You can contact me by email at . ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From andrea@u.washington.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:18 EDT 1994 Article: 68 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!bambam.u.washington.edu!apowell From: apowell@bambam.u.washington.edu (Andrea Powell) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Test ... ignore me Date: 15 Sep 1994 16:11:47 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Tacoma Lines: 1 Distribution: world Message-ID: <359ro3$d65@news.u.washington.edu> Reply-To: andrea@u.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: bambam.u.washington.edu From ms018c@uhura.cc.rochester.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:19 EDT 1994 Article: 69 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!ms018c From: ms018c@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Stumpy McNoleg) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: <1994Sep15.223729.19140@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: uhura.cc.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 22:37:29 GMT Lines: 11 In <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: >Anyone concerned about this _must_ educate himself about the use of >networks, encryption, and anonymity. A good first step is getting PGP >(available from ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks), installing it, and >making it a habit to use it. Another place to get info is >gopher://chaos.bsu.edu. What is PGP, and what does it do? Matt From ms018c@uhura.cc.rochester.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:20 EDT 1994 Article: 70 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!ms018c From: ms018c@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Stumpy McNoleg) Subject: FAQ? Message-ID: <1994Sep15.223829.19247@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: uhura.cc.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 22:38:29 GMT Lines: 8 Hi all... I was very excited to see this group, I hope it begins to grow... Dare i ask for a FAQ? Matt From guillory@blkbox.com Thu Sep 15 21:05:21 EDT 1994 Article: 71 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists in Winnipeg? Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:38:57 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <35aeth$sb2@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Bartley Kives (bkives@superior.carleton.ca) wrote: : Hello. I'm looking for survivalists who live in and/or around the Winnipeg : area who'd be willing to talk about their lifestyle for the purposes of a : newspaper story. Good luck. Most I have known who fell for the newspaper writers "let me tell your side of the story" ended up getting to look like a fool. : When I was working for the Sun in Winnipeg over the past summer, most : self-professed survivalists were a bit hesitant about talking to the : media. With good reason. What is going to sell newspapers, an article with a photograph of someone dressed in mis-matched (to the terrain and each other) fatigues with an AR-15 or a bunch of people in coveralls in the kitchen filling a bunch of Mason jars with vegetables? Why is it when mainstream writers want to do a piece on survival they always want to talk about how many firearms you have, how big are they, want to phograph them? Heck, and they call us "gun nuts"? : Maybe I was just hanging out in the wrong environment -- I highly doubt : all (if any) of you conform to the pop-culture stereotype that portrays : you as secretive folks decked out in fatigues. Cautious not secretive and no I don't have cammies. I guess "he will be known by his deeds" applies here. : Talk to you soon. I hope so, depend what you write. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From eapu259@taurus.oac.uci.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:22 EDT 1994 Article: 72 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!news.service.uci.edu!taurus.oac.uci.edu!eapu259 From: eapu259@taurus.oac.uci.edu (Devin Murphy) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Various Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:22:19 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 25 Message-ID: <35adub$1e2@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: taurus.oac.uci.edu With regards to keeping the net active after a large catastrophe, I think everyone is overestimating the value of the net in general. Consider -- a radio is smaller than any computer, even a laptop, and is faster to use for information services which IMMEDIATELY affect your area. For example, if California had an major earthquake and LA fell into the ocean, are you honestly going to log on to post to this newsgroup indicating the value of various emergency procedures? In any other nationwide instance, anything that would destroy the internet, NSF backbone, or telephone service would probably invalidate the large piece of plastic and metal which was sitting on your desk. Also, assuming I had to leave my home in a hurry, the very last item I would pack would be a computer -- it'd go in after I stuffed in a collection of overdue library books or something. On another subject--and I'm not presenting any political agenda--the ATF's attention was drawn to Waco because a UPS box broke open an exposed an M-16 (I think). After this, the ATF checked all incoming UPS deliveries and found the following: a dozen grenades, an M-79 grenade launcher, 90 pounds of powered aluminum (see: thermite), and dozens of more ordinary firearms. Just a fevered post == Devin Murphy From bw004b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:23 EDT 1994 Article: 73 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!bw004b From: bw004b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (bucket O brains) Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Message-ID: <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: uhura.cc.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 23:08:55 GMT Lines: 7 I personaly like the M-16. What more could you ask for? I mean apart from the necesity of keeping it very clean. It's light, very accurate, more powerfull than you will ever need, and has excelent range. I can't see needing more than 550m of pin point accuracy, and 800m of area target accuracy. As for the ammo, 5.56 should not be that hard to find after a revolution because of vast amount that the goverment has sould not be hard to get a hold of. O well it's too bad I can't get one for my self. Pitty From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Thu Sep 15 21:05:24 EDT 1994 Article: 74 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: CONCEALMENT Date: 15 Sep 1994 16:24:21 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 13 Message-ID: <359sfl$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 When I said "concealment" I meant that to be secure, you should not advertize your presence to others who might prey upon you for the critical commodities which you possess... i.e. If you live on a ranch, you might move out of the main house in favor of a well hidden shelter elsewhere on the property. Then, if the boogey man has been watching observing your abode from afar and decides that he and his partners should raid it in the wee hours, he will find an empty shell. If they decide to move in, then you can decide how to deal with the intrusion on your own terms. I did not mean "concealed weapon" and I agree with any comments which support all manner of special purpose weapons. .22LR thru .50BMG !!! =Frank= From ewing@u.washington.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:24 EDT 1994 Article: 75 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!ewing From: ewing@u.washington.edu (Andrew W Ewing) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Reinforced Concrete Specifications? Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:16:25 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 35 Message-ID: <35ao4p$p41@news.u.washington.edu> References: <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.brocku.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu In article <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.brocku.ca>, Murray Brain Calvert wrote: >I am planning to build an earth-sheltered house in the country (None of >your business where!). I would like the structure to withstand a major >earthquake or atomic blast from 10 miles away. I estimate that the load >could be 2000 pounds per square foot. Has anyone out there built a >reinforced concrete structure that could advise me on references for >structural engineering? Also I can't find much about design life, i.e. >how long before the rebar rusts. > >Brian > There are numerous books on R/C buildings and foundations. Check out an Engineering Library. Try underground structures. As for the rebar life, there are many things out there that will help protect the rebar in the concrete. These range from asphaltic applications to the exterior of the concrete to admixtures which can be added to the concrete which will reduce water infiltration. One vary simple thing is to keep excess moisture away from the structure. Depending on the soil type, I would reccomend placing drains and backfilling your structure with gravel and sand. There is a group for civil engineering. I haven't subscribed to it for a while but I do remember people asking questions like yours and getting helpful responses. Hope this is helpful. Andy Ewing ewing@ce.washington.edu From bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:25 EDT 1994 Article: 76 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!cronkite.ocis.temple.edu!uniblab.ocis.temple.edu!bismarck From: bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu (Aaron Dial) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: q Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:50:21 GMT Organization: Temple University, Academic Computer Services Lines: 9 Message-ID: <35afit$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: uniblab.ocis.temple.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] -- ******************************************************** *** *** *** AARON DIAL is bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu *** *** *** ******************************************************** From bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:26 EDT 1994 Article: 77 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!cronkite.ocis.temple.edu!uniblab.ocis.temple.edu!bismarck From: bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu (Aaron Dial) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:53:30 GMT Organization: Temple University, Academic Computer Services Lines: 14 Message-ID: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: uniblab.ocis.temple.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought this would be an interesting topic of conversation. Aaron, Delaware, far, far away from the Pacific Northwest -- ******************************************************** *** *** *** AARON DIAL is bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu *** *** *** ******************************************************** From iu91@sol.acs.unt.edu Thu Sep 15 21:05:27 EDT 1994 Article: 78 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!sol!iu91 From: iu91@sol.acs.unt.edu (Frank Robert James) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Quicksand Experiences needed Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:18:26 GMT Organization: University of North Texas Lines: 14 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <359vl2$o24@hermes.unt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.acs.unt.edu Keywords: quicksand, mud, stories X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] My wife is writing a novel and needs real-life quicksand and/or deep mud experiences. (most survival books dedicate one or two sentances to the subject) The plot involves two young women, one with little wilderness experience and one with lots, and we want to keep things realistic! Any tales, experiences or referals would be greatly appreciated! EMail to: Rob at iu91@sol.acs.unt.edu THANKS! From jeffrey_p_wendt@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov Thu Sep 15 21:12:54 EDT 1994 Article: 79 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!eff!news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!grover.jpl.nasa.gov!jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov!jeffrey_p_wendt From: jeffrey_p_wendt@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov (Jeffrey P Wendt) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: FOR SALE: MRE'S Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 09:47:57 Organization: JPL Lines: 8 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 137.79.39.2 X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] I will be getting some cases in very soon, and they will be priced as follows: Case of 12 meals without heaters: $35.00 with heaters: $40.00 Drop me a line if interested. Jeff From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Thu Sep 15 21:12:55 EDT 1994 Article: 80 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Low Cost .. Low Tech Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <359vvn$cse@uudell.us.dell.com> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 20:32:52 GMT Lines: 93 Wow, this is terrific! Unfortunately, I can't stay long. I'm quitting my job in two weeks, and am going to equip my truck to spend 1-3 months living in Nat'l Forests, BLM land etc. in Nevada, Utah, and maybe other places. Obviously, I have some planning to do. I will not actually be practicing complete "survivalism", as I will be taking food in with me (potatoes, onions, other vegetables, beans, rice, etc. as well as *some* canned meats like tuna, chicken and beef jerky for stew) and when the food, gas or water run low (1-2 weeks...?) I'll drive to the nearest town and buy some more. Perhaps I'll take notes and submit them to the newsgroup through friends with net access during, or after. One comment I want to make at this point is the importance I see in good organization. Planning, clear thinking, and clear identification of issues are very important. Survival in any situation, including in the situations of modern life in the city, hinge on: o The ability to recognize what things in your environment are *significant* to your survival, as opposed to recognizing what things have limited immediate impact on your survival, and... o ...discriminate between threats and resources, friends and enemies, tools and toys, panicky fear and real danger. Once you have some basic idea of the composition of your environment you can start to... o ...organize your efforts, your resources, your communication and the relationships with your family, friends or partners. Your immediate goal is to develop stability, safety and confidence in your immediate situation. After you do this, you can... o ...begin to plan for things that *haven't* happened yet. I realize that this is just one way of looking at survival. I myself would ignore using this model if it didn't seem to be useful to me at the time. But having thought about this subject a bit, I believe that this model addresses some important issues in the event of disasters, whether natural or man-made, for example, Panic. This is a real problem when we find ourselves in an unfamiliar, dangerous situation. Just the act of concentrating on simple tasks helps us control panic. And we develop the ability to focus on simple tasks under stressful conditions through organization, planning, and finally training. This all has to happen *before* the dangerous situation arises. To me, that's the best thing about this model (or any model, really, that focuses on IDENTIFYING, ORGANIZING and PLANNING) is that it is most useful *before* the disaster occurs. By thinking ahead, we get that critical edge over the next person, the old "Ant and the Cricket" fable. *What*, exactly, are we trying to protect ourselves *from*? Natural disasters have been mentioned. So has the spectre of civil unrest. There's always the old bogeyman of atomic war. Historically, plague springs to mind. And I'm sure that everybody here has had the experience of simply breaking down on the side of the road. Maybe it was at night in a dangerous urban neighborhood. Maybe it was at noon in July in Death Valley, California. Same cause, but *very different problems*, and consequently, very different survival strategies. In one you bring a heavy stick, in the other, a light- weight umbrella. What I would like most to see is for the people on this list to *organize* their thinking. You don't like guns? Good. Work on plans for all of us that don't require firearms. You have an arsenal in your basement that rivals some Carribean nations? Excellent! Share your expertise in as well thought out, organized and complete set of information, plans, contingencies, etc. as you can. That way, we all benefit. And that way, after the apocalypse (ho ho ho) we'll all know each other's tricks, and no one group can get the upper hand. That's just a little joke. Anyways, that's all I wanted to say for now. There is so much ground to cover, and who knows how much time before the next hurricane, forest fire, riot or automotive breakdown one of us will experience? The idea of debate grounded in solid research and careful planning intrigues me. How about you? A number of the people who have just posted today seem to have very solid attitudes about survival. I'm looking forward to hearing all of your thoughts. To restate my challenge to all of you, I ask again: *Exactly* what situations are we on this newsgroup dedicated to defending ourselves from? I believe that an explicit list will help frame future dialogue. I hope I haven't stepped on any toes. Liberty, Brotherhood, Equality, Robert Holder Denver, Colorado "Any man can endure hardship, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." -- Abraham Lincoln From LONGSA%DFCS@pcmail.usafa.af.mil Thu Sep 15 21:12:56 EDT 1994 Article: 81 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!news.usafa.af.mil!pcmail.usafa.af.mil!LONGSA%DFCS From: LONGSA%DFCS@pcmail.usafa.af.mil (Sean A. Long) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 18:39:07 GMT Organization: United States Air Force Academy Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.236.8.68 In article <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) writes: >In article <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu>, >Shane Patrick Ahern wrote: >>Are there any true survivalists out there? > Yes, welcome! I'm so glad this base got started, and that my positive >vote actually had an effect. Congratulations to all of those others who >helped get this base installed as well. Thank you! > My first question/topic: What's the best form of shelter to purchase >for use in a long-term "rebellion" type of open warfare? Is something >like the U.S. Army's two-man shelter halves a good investment or should >I simply be content with a good water-repellent sleeping bag which I >can roll up into my pack harness? >^TW >From my experience teaching SERE Survival at USAFA two years, you want at the very least to keep your sleeping bag dry at all costs. This means some sort of cover on top (even 'chute material sheds rain when stretched tight), and some sort of platform to keep the bag off the ground. We use both parachute material and rubberized ponchos during training for cover, and teach the students to built up out of pine needles, branches, etc. some sort of base to keep the bag out of any ground runoff. Even a water-repellent sleeping bag will lose LOTS of heat if it comes in contact with water, and will eventually become wet/waterlogged unless both completely sealed, rubberized, and NEW (no waterproofing scratched off). This type of top and bottom protection also keeps the bag clean which enhances thermal protection characteristics as well. I've tried it in the field, it works. The warmest I've ever been at night in the woods was on a 1 ft thick bed of pine branches under a parachute stretched out about 10 ft up, with about 20 other instructors packed in under the same 'chute... Toasty! -=>Sean Long From LONGSA%DFCS@pcmail.usafa.af.mil Thu Sep 15 21:12:57 EDT 1994 Article: 82 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!news.usafa.af.mil!pcmail.usafa.af.mil!LONGSA%DFCS From: LONGSA%DFCS@pcmail.usafa.af.mil (Sean A. Long) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 18:44:16 GMT Organization: United States Air Force Academy Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.236.8.68 In article <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) writes: >In article <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com>, >Frank Langham wrote: >> >>...Comments/Additions? >>=Frank= >I would add Radio Receiver (ham or cb or both). >Obviously, lotsa batteries for the above. Or crystal radio set without batteries... I've seen absolutely incredible crystal radio sets that need no power but pull in just about everything. -=>Sean Long From icm@infobiz.cityscape.co.uk Fri Sep 16 04:24:56 EDT 1994 Article: 83 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!pipex!cityscape.co.uk!usenet From: icm@infobiz.cityscape.co.uk (Ian McNally) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Bad Publicity Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:16:15 GMT Organization: Cityscape Lines: 23 Message-ID: <35ao4f$jto@ns.cityscape.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ac035.du.pipex.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 Hey, you lot have got some seriously bad press in the UK at the moment due to the Rachel Nickell trial. If you don't know... basically some poor girl got stabbed 46 times to death by some evil bastard and the Met Police are trying to pin it on some sad loner with survivalist tendencies. The current buzz in the UK press is the fact that a guy has just been acquitted of the crime because the police tried to frame him for the crime, because he was a loner with survivalist tendencies and strange sexual fascinations. They used an undercover cop and a psychologist to write to this guy to try and coerce him into confessing. He never did, however. meanwhile, the police will probably try to fix up some other poor loner with this (admittedly horrific) crime by targeting survivalists and other single men. What do YOU think? From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 04:24:57 EDT 1994 Article: 84 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: 15 Sep 1994 16:50:03 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 21 Message-ID: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 ADD "KNOWLEDGE" or "LIBRARY" to the list... build a good library for reference... Start with a few good general guides and periodically cart all your old Survival/Sufficiency periodicals out to your country "hide" whenever you go to visit. So... We now have. * Knowledge (library) ...car trunk or retreat facility. * Water (the means to clean/store/disinfect/acquire) * Food (MRE/Dehydrated/etc) * Security (Guns and the means to conceal YOURSELF...Optics..partners) * FIRST AIDE (Supplies/Manuals/Training) * AIR (gas-masks, etc...I, personally, don't think this is critical) Anything else which is FUNDAMENTAL??? (KEEP IT SIMPLE, PLEASE!) ...Comments/Additions? =Frank= From greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com Fri Sep 16 04:24:58 EDT 1994 Article: 85 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!male.EBay.Sun.COM!antizen!greg From: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com (Yes, I'm still here...) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:25:40 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 36 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35aom4$o09@male.EBay.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com Giardiasis refers to an infection of the small intestine caused by giardia lamblia. Many folks don't experience any sickness/symptoms, but those who do experience symptoms ranging from flatuence to epigastric pain, cramps, and/or diarrhea. Severe cases can lead to malabsorbtion, significant weight loss and bulky malordorous stools. An important note - Dehydration and diarrhea are the primary killers of children in the third world, which relates to dirty drinking water and a lack preventitive health and personal hygiene education. In a catastrophic disaster - where we live can very well be turned into a third world. Also keep in mind that while diarrhea is something we Americans think of as a nusance, in a more critical situation it can be as fatal as any illness. The G. lamblia is actually a trophozoite (a parasite) as and is passed in the stool in the cyst stage making them very resistant. I can't qoute a reliable source, but I believe that giardia is not the most common cause of water-borne infection, rather the most publicized. A contaminated water source presents the danger of cholera, typhoid, heatitis and other life-threatening nasties. Training is the key. Greg "Knowledge is courage" From e4321167@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au Fri Sep 16 04:24:59 EDT 1994 Article: 86 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!msuinfo!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!dingo.cc.uq.oz.au!e4321167 From: e4321167@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au (Michael Coombes) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Renewable Power Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:26:23 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 18 Message-ID: <35ahmf$ftu@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Hi there all. Here in Australia, there is a company called the Rainbow Power Company. Its aim is to produce electricity from renewable power sources - things like small streams, small windmills etc. These small generators have a huge range of uses in a survival situation. While they cannot produce a huge amount of power on their own, it is enough to power communication and detection equipment. The adress to write to for more information is; Rainbow Power Company 1 Alternative Way Nimbin, NSW Australia BEZ From abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:00 EDT 1994 Article: 87 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!abrez From: abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:48:56 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL Lines: 17 Message-ID: <35aq1o$sa8@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu In article , Sean A. Long wrote: > >Or crystal radio set without batteries... I've seen absolutely incredible >crystal radio sets that need no power but pull in just about everything. > >-=>Sean Long I've never heard of that... It sounds really cool-- where could I get one, and how much do they go for? Aaron Brezenski "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me." Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati "If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion." "... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" From algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:01 EDT 1994 Article: 88 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!oucsace!ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu!ALGEO From: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (the virtual valkyrie) Subject: Re: A Good Start Message-ID: Sender: news@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (news account) Reply-To: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Organization: Ohio University Computing & Technology Services References: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com>,<35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 00:25:20 GMT Lines: 23 In article <35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu>, burton@sun.lclark.edu (Kathleen Burton) writes: >thanks for the info on the basics of survivalism. > >i'd be specifically interested in finding out about living the 1800's >way. where can i find out more? books? or do you know anyplace that >would offer classes? or just trial and error? or find someone to >teach me? Your local library has many books on old-fashioned skills, such as the _Foxfire_ series. There may be classes in your area, but of course you'd have to talk to someone local about that. I'd be happy to share my own skills, such as they are, with anyone who wants to know. I know about herbal medicine and edible wild plants, and quite a lot about the various fiber skills. I'd like to trade for some solid info on defensible shelters. -- Melissa Algeo algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu algeo@monolith.mit.edu From honig@ics.uci.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:02 EDT 1994 Article: 89 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!not-for-mail From: honig@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 15:32:19 -0700 Organization: UC Disneyland, in the Kingdom of Bren Lines: 23 Message-ID: <35ai1j$j63@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: honig@ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) NNTP-Posting-Host: buckaroo.ics.uci.edu rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: >I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns >the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't >seen any posts on the subject *sigh* Maybe I'll have to >post some files on the subject to straighten things out. > >P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? Unless you're volunteering, probably not. This group forked off rec.guns, not just rec.treehuggers :-), so deal with it. Also, most people (alas) live in cities. dh -- David A. Honig, informivore In a world of compromise, some don't. ---Heckler & Koch "Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?" - C. D. Tavares From bglover@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:03 EDT 1994 Article: 90 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!bglover From: bglover@netcom.com (William Glover) Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 22:46:35 GMT Lines: 47 Ronald Walters (rwalters@bu.edu) wrote: : STEPHENSON (dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote: : : These kinds of things and this group made me think: : : Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons : : of some sort? In Flordia survival can be getting along for days with nothing but your wits. After a big Huricane, I was in Cammille in the 1968 timeframe, you learn what survival means. In CA it means earthquakes, riots and other such. In 1989 we had a few rough days. In recent years the riots caused a lot of apprehension. In all cases being able to prepare food, have clean water, do first aid, help serverly wounded folks, look for lost and trapped people, all these things came into play. Modern support services are the first to fail. Water systems go quick, food takes a little longer. A 2 week supply should get you through. The earthquake preparedness groups run by the state and local governments out in CA recommend this as a minimum. Weapons stockpiles, not really. Food, water, tools, training yep. A weapon might be useful, as the experience in CA recently proved, the first causuality is usually order, the second is respect for others property, and maybe the people themselves. A good weapon, a riot shotgun would do nicely. Get some flare shells for signaling. Buckshot for defense. 100 or so shells should do. If that is a "stockpile" so be it. I call prudent preparation. Bill ======================================================== "The only power any government has is to crack down on crime and criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, then one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens. What's there in that for anyone. But just pass the kinds of law that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of lawbreakers - and then you can cash in on their guilt." --Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged-- ======================================================== From bglover@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:04 EDT 1994 Article: 91 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!bglover From: bglover@netcom.com (William Glover) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 22:50:31 GMT Lines: 26 A discussion of PGP might be in order? I think this is appropiate "before", and after, but during...??? But in a survival situation, computers and communications are unlikely to work. Battery radios are much better. Packet radio has some usefulness in message traffic management. Two way FM radios are best, CB marginal, HF better since it can reach outside of the affected area. AM/FM battery portables as a minimum. Bill ======================================================== "The only power any government has is to crack down on crime and criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, then one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens. What's there in that for anyone. But just pass the kinds of law that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of lawbreakers - and then you can cash in on their guilt." --Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged-- ======================================================== From bglover@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:05 EDT 1994 Article: 92 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!bglover From: bglover@netcom.com (William Glover) Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to t.. Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3585rv$826@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> <358f8t$jb4$2@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 22:56:46 GMT Lines: 53 J Moschell (72714.3044@CompuServe.COM) wrote: : I use the "Storm Theory". Prepare for a *BIG* storm, say a : hurricane. What do you need for that kind of storm. You need a : lot of different things for that situation. Now, you people in : the non-hurricane areas can relate to tornados, blizzards, etc. : It is the same for these situations as well. : Now, take it one step further... A hurricane in which you and : your family must survive 10 days without food or water...a : hurricane where you and your neighbors will confront looters on a : daily basis for those ten days. A struggle for life itself. : Take it further...30 days...60 days. : Using this theory, you will be prepared for the worst...a : hurricane. Let's say that ANY other disaster comes, you are : prepared. Its easy to say to friends, relatives, neighbors, and : others that I am prepared for "THE STORM". : Basically, what I am saying is that you don't have to have an : attitude that the Russians or the CIA are coming for : you...Prepare for a major "Storm" and if its a storm or Russians, : or the CIA, you are prepared. I'm not saying this is definitive, : but it is a good place to start. It takes away from the stigma : that Survivalism is BAD. Having gone through a hurricane, and a major earthquake...this is the proper analogy. The hurricane is worse, since it levels everything in a large area. Look at FL years after Andrew hit. It took about 3 weeks for things to get some normality back to areas outside the affected areas. Years for those that were hit. For a week or more most in the "hit area" were on there own. Roads were not useable, folks had to walk out for help. The affected area was huge when you have to walk. Cars and trucks faired poorly in the hit area. Bill ======================================================== "The only power any government has is to crack down on crime and criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, then one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens. What's there in that for anyone. But just pass the kinds of law that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of lawbreakers - and then you can cash in on their guilt." --Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged-- ======================================================== From robertb@comtch.iea.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:06 EDT 1994 Article: 93 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!krel.iea.com!comtch!robertb From: robertb@comtch.iea.com (Robert Blanchard) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:01:58 GMT Organization: CompuTech, Spokane WA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35an9m$7fg@krel.iea.com> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: comtch.iea.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Aaron Dial (bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu) wrote: : If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, : and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most : versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought : this would be an interesting topic of conversation. first somthing simple to take care of. Alot of people run for the flashy AK's and AR-15's but for the long haul a bolt-action would be better. even with a semi-auto the spray and pray somtimes creeps up. with a bolt there is less ammo wasted. also a bolt is easier to clean and repair(headspacing an M16 is a b*tch). There are two other reasons,they're not as resticted *yet* and they are less expensive. Before people jump on this I wont to say that I dont hate automatics. I've owned class-3's and MY ak DOES have a middle position. I just know their limitations. Robert robertb@comtch.iea.com From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:07 EDT 1994 Article: 94 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Message-ID: Keywords: safe water bacteria streams ponds Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> <35a3ca$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 21:30:32 GMT Lines: 17 The number one cause of sickness from unsterilized water is from a bacteria called (I think) giardia . This bacteria makes you sick as a dog, but I don't think it's fatal. It occurs in mountain streams as well as stagnant water. Also, if an animal dies upstream and decomposes, other bacteria can get in the water. There are a variety of ways to sterilize water, but the simplest is to bring it to a brisk boil for ten minutes. I like not having a moderator, but perhaps some of us could voluteer to collect and collate the information on this newsgroup? I can help out for this month, but after that, my net access goes away. Robert Holder From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:08 EDT 1994 Article: 95 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Sender: news@bigtop.dr.att.com (Netnews Administration Login) Organization: ATT - GBCS Denver Labs References: <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 00:42:40 GMT Lines: 12 a number of people have suggested that they will not rely on the internet during disasters. this is a reasonable position. but don't forget packet BBS. if you are not familiar with this, this is ham radio based (digital) bbs network. if you have a generator, a personal computer w/software and a transceiver, you will continue to be a part of the global computer network (and therefore access to lots of info via usenet etc., imagine: potential access to technical info, medical expertise, news) that will survive everything but EMP or physical destruction of your site. rdh From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:09 EDT 1994 Article: 96 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Various Message-ID: Sender: news@bigtop.dr.att.com (Netnews Administration Login) Organization: ATT - GBCS Denver Labs References: <35adub$1e2@news.service.uci.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 00:48:42 GMT Lines: 13 despite my previous post, I have to agree with Devin Murphy. in the future, as telecommunications becomes more distributed, the internet may take on more importance during an "apocalypse" type situation, but for now, the computer would be just more to carry. I still maintain, thought, that during a temporary thing like a hurricane, earthquake, or localized riot, the net would be very useful, and it might serve us to examine where it would be useful and where it would be a waste of time. rdh From basiji@u.washington.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:10 EDT 1994 Article: 97 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!basiji From: basiji@u.washington.edu (David Basiji) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:57:40 GMT Organization: University of Washington Lines: 35 Message-ID: <35aqi4$psl@news.u.washington.edu> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stein3.u.washington.edu bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu (Aaron Dial) writes: >If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, >and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most >versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought >this would be an interesting topic of conversation. Are you heading to Seattle or are you going to live off the land somewhere? Those are very different environments that call for different skills and tools. In Seattle, you're not gonna be hunting squirrels for food (not for long, anyway ;o) and the most commonplace reason for owning a gun would be self-defense. In that case, a small, high capacity 9mm pistol would be my choice (a Glock, since you asked) or a small .357 revolver. In the forest, assuming you're going to be living off the land and obeying all hunting regulations, I'd get a scoped .22 rifle (a Ruger 10/22 in particular). Since you can only legally hunt large game for a few weeks out of the year, you'd be living off of smaller game most of the time. A powerful rifle will only leave a small red smudge where you thought your target was sitting. The 22 is very accurate up to 50 yards or so and doesn't destroy too much meat. It's also cheap to shoot so you get a lot of practice in and hone your skills. Of course, if you don't care about hunting laws and are worried about civil collapse/military takeover/whatever and plan on living like a hermit while the world goes to Hell around you, I'd get a .308 bolt-action rifle with a Leupold 4-14x50 scope (with iron sights as backup, of course). All else being equal, you're better off shooting large game than small and the .308 is powerful enough for just about anything short of a grizzly bear and accurate enough to shoot in a 6 inch circle at 300 yards. The caliber is used by the military so there's plenty of it around and it is deadly at 800 yards. David Basiji UW Bioengineering From gbrennan@umich.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:11 EDT 1994 Article: 98 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!zaxxon.rs.itd.umich.edu!gbrennan From: gbrennan@umich.edu (Gerald Brennan) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:57:29 GMT Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 21 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <35ajgp$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> References: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zaxxon.rs.itd.umich.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] : Henry T Robertson (htrst1+@pitt.edu) wrote: : : In article , : : Benjamin Johnson wrote: : : >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not : : >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. : : There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves : : from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. Ronald Walters (rwalters@bu.edu) wrote: : *****What relevance does this have to this newsgroup? Yeah. Hey, Henry -- I think you want .alt.anti-sodomite. -- __________________ Gerald Brennan gbrennan@umich.edu From cyberthug@aol.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:12 EDT 1994 Article: 99 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: cyberthug@aol.com (CyberThug) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Fuel Storage (was Re: talk about this?) Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:56:05 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 18 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <35atvl$d96@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com>, lovecraf@infinet.com (Ed Michalski) writes: >There are certain gas additives which can prolong the life of stored >gasoline far greater than our lifetimes. Can you give us a name brand or chemical name? Another poster mentioned fuel stabilizers, which I just decided to try. He said they were good for about a year, but none of the ones I saw gave any specifics on how long they last. BTW - I've stored fuel without a stabilizer for up to a year and had no problems when mixed with fresh fuel in at least a 50/50 mix (favoring fresh fuel). I was hoping that the stabilizers would keep it good for at least 2 - 5 yrs. (And I second the opinion that rotating all stock - be it fuel, food, ammo, or whatever, is a good idea). Kevin aka CyberThug From velkey@selway.umt.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:13 EDT 1994 Article: 100 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!selway.umt.edu!not-for-mail From: velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: 15 Sep 1994 19:44:12 -0600 Organization: University of Montana, Missoula Lines: 36 Message-ID: <35at9c$n5j@selway.umt.edu> References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> <35aq1o$sa8@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu In article <35aq1o$sa8@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Aaron Brezenski wrote: >In article , >Sean A. Long wrote: >> >>Or crystal radio set without batteries... I've seen absolutely incredible >>crystal radio sets that need no power but pull in just about everything. >> >>-=>Sean Long > >I've never heard of that... It sounds really cool-- where could I get one, >and how much do they go for? > >Aaron Brezenski Good question. Radio Shack sells a crystal kit for under $15. That would work, you could even make it more durable. Crystal Radios pickup AM trans- missions and, thanks to the ionosphere, receive programming from thousands of miles away. They can be tricky to tune. My grandpa showed my how to make one with the windings from a broken telephone wrapped around an oatmeal box (the round ones) [plus some other stuff]. I hooked the lead to the tether line of a utility pole and received KDKA (in Pittsburg) in central Mississippi. I wish I could remember how to make one. That would make a good posting for the group (HINT! HINT!) I'd do it except that I am in the middle of writing my Prospectus and don't really have the time. Andrew J. Velkey Dept of Psychology, Univ. of MT Grad Student, etc. From velkey@selway.umt.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:14 EDT 1994 Article: 101 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!selway.umt.edu!not-for-mail From: velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 20:02:49 -0600 Organization: University of Montana, Missoula Lines: 52 Message-ID: <35auc9$p27@selway.umt.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> <359voh$ij8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu In article , 131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 wrote: >I like Duane Mantick and David Basiji's attitudes, and I agree >about the .22 ...after feeding $16+ into my glock at the range >time after time I grew to miss buying .22 cartridges in those >terrific little "milk carton" containers by the 500 count for >$6 or so! > >Duane (and others) do you have any experience with the .30-.30? >Is lever action reliable? It seemed to me like a good compromise >between rabbit caliber and man-stopper, and the rifles I have seen >are generally shorter in overall length--more easily handled in >close quarters. What are your opinions, if any? > >Regards > >Robert Holder >Denver, Colorado I think that whenever you are considering a weapon, you need to consider the parameters of its use. I suggested a .22LR b/c they are lightweight, you can pack ALOT of ammo, are fairly inexpensive to both own and shoot ( if you can practice 500 rounds for $15, you can get to be a pretty good shot). The .22LR is a pretty acurate weapon and is easily wielded by the user. A monster like a .30-06 is going to require much greater investment in money and you can't blast a few hundred rounds in a weekend to hone your skills (20 rounds and my shoulder starts talking to me :) ). Obviously, if you are concerned about picking off targets at 500 yds, then you need a little more power. If you are concerned with bringing down big game, you need more firepower. In the amount of time it takes you to track (or wait for) a deer/elk/moose/bear/etc., I've plinked off 10 or so squirrels, dressed them, and cooked 'em on a spit. As far as the human threat is concerned, talk to any trauma surgeon. The worst damage they see is from .22LR and .32 caliber wounds. The High Powered rounds tend to impact, expand to about 10X, and exit. Sure, that's pretty nasty when you consider a head shot or something. A .22 goes in, hits bone/cartilage, and bounces. They'll do a real "pinball" machine in your insides. Others may tout their para-military style weapons, but I don't think I want to depend on looting gov't stores when I need ammo. To get back to the original question (Gee, I did kinda stray here), I think the .30-30 is a fine weapon. The lever action is nice. It has plenty of knockdown for deer and similar sized targets (a friend did take down a 4 point elk with 3 shots, but he is a CRACK shot). I don't think I would want to depend on one if the proverbial stuff hit the fan. They can be difficult to field strip and have many parts which can fail. I can buy a .22LR with scope and a 1000 rounds for half the price of a decent .30-30. Andrew J. Velkey Dept of Psychology, Univ of MT Grad Student, etc. From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:14 EDT 1994 Article: 102 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: RE:FBI (THIS IS *NOT* TALK.POLITICS.GUNS!!!) Date: 15 Sep 1994 19:07:47 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 17 Message-ID: <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 HEY, BUD! You ought to know better than to *TRY* to start this topic of discussion over on this group. THIS IS AN INFORMATIONAL GROUP and should not contain political topics unless they apply DIRECTLY to this group! A political topic that WOULD be appropriate would be "Why the DoD has decided to destroy surplus ammo cans, tents, gas-masks, etc. rather than resell it to the public. (The answer is that the Clinstoned administration has decided that such paraphenalia perpetuates the "gun culture"...uhg!) ...I know you could stretch your argument to include "preparedness" but, REALLY, Why don't you just tell folks to participate in t.p.g rather than trashing up this group with a bunch of political soap-box stuff. PLEASE!?!...and...THANK YOU (all). =Frank= P.S. I am totally sympathetic and interested in your opinions and point of view... I just don't want to have to wade through a bunch of crap to find valuable technical info regarding preparedness...thanks, really! From cyberthug@aol.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:15 EDT 1994 Article: 103 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: cyberthug@aol.com (CyberThug) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:13:05 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 21 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <35auvh$dhc@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu>, dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) writes: >Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >of some sort? I tend to agree for the most part with the other responses I've read on this subject, but I'd like to add a little: If you are uneasy with firearms, you probably shouldn't own them, at least until you've taken some kind of firearms safety course. If you are adamantly opposed to guns, that still doesn't preclude you from being a survivalist. Even in a worst case scenario - i.e. breakdown of civilization, looting, etc., if you can find an isolated enough area where defending yourself from two legged predators is not a primary concern, you could prepare yourself enough to get by using a bow, a sling, or traps & snares to provide enough meat to get by. You could even survive on a vegitarian diet if you're a good enough forager (some anthropologists have even questioned the cost effectiveness of the hunting half of hunter/gatherer societies). Kevin aka CyberThug From gbrennan@umich.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:16 EDT 1994 Article: 104 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!zaxxon.rs.itd.umich.edu!gbrennan From: gbrennan@umich.edu (Gerald Brennan) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 23:16:00 GMT Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 25 Message-ID: <35akjg$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: zaxxon.rs.itd.umich.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] George Guillory (guillory@blkbox.com) wrote: : Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that : the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms : (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. But that's crazy. As unpleasant and _presumably_ irrelevant as these topics may be to some, they are indeed part of the picture, and should not be ignored. Those who don't wish to participate in those threads, if they develop, need not do so. The gun forums are not designed _specifically_ for the survivalist point-of-view. But I'm not the esteemed moderator, and if the forum is censored as to these topics, then that's the way it is... : I think we do : ourselve a disservice when we say "this is real survivalism" or "that is : real survivalism. It's all survivalism. We may have our favorite areas : to study but none are better than others. Well said. I, like George, an looking forward to the discussion of all aspects of this topic. __________________ Gerald Brennan gbrennan@umich.edu From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:17 EDT 1994 Article: 105 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Another place for discussing survivalism Message-ID: <1994Sep16.021103.28830@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 02:11:03 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 63 I have been running a small e-mail list (around 50 people) regarding survivalism for almost a year. Below is the info file. Take it for what it's worth... Note: Survive-List and misc.survivalism are in no way connected except that they deal with the same general subject material. Survive-List Info File... +++++++++++++++++++++++++ This list is for discussing preparedness, eating roots and berries, guns, politics, privacy, home schooling and whatever else YOU think pertains to 'survival'. If you think if even vaguely pertains to 'survival' or 'survivalism' and you want to post, go right ahead. I'm not going to censor posts, but if someone makes a REAL nuisance of himself, I'll delete him involuntarily. It would take quite a bit, though, to get deleted, so don't worry. If you get to the point where you are pissing me off (it takes a LOT to do that), I'll give you fair warning. A few caveats... 1) This is ONLY an alias. I'm not going to spend time administering a list or archive. If someone else wants to do this, I don't have a problem with that. 2) The machine that this is on is owned by the Physics Dept. and they don't have any interest in this topic. If anyone at my site complains, the list will go *poof* in a highly motivated fashion. I'll try to let the list know before this happens, but I don't give guarantees. 3) Don't be stupid. This is going over a public network and you *KNOW* BB is reading. Act accordingly. 4) If anyone out there thinks they have a better machine to put this list on, then let me know and we'll move it. 5) If you can think of anyone who might be interested in this list, tell them about it. The more, the merrier (up to a point...). Subscribing: Send mail to 'survive-request@buckaroo.pas.rochester.edu' giving me your e-mail address. This gets forwarded to me (a live person!!!) so make yourself clear. Posting: Send your posts to 'survive-list@buckaroo.pas.rochester.edu'. Suggestions are greatly appreciated. Flames are ignored. -Bill VanRemmen billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one else's. Definitely not the U of R's. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:18 EDT 1994 Article: 106 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? In-Reply-To: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu's message of 14 Sep 1994 17:38:59 -0400 Message-ID: <1994Sep16.022330.29406@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 02:23:30 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 23 In <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu writes: > for use in a long-term "rebellion" type of open warfare? Is something > like the U.S. Army's two-man shelter halves a good investment or should > I simply be content with a good water-repellent sleeping bag which I > can roll up into my pack harness? YUCK! The shelter halves make a shelter that is drafty and leaky. Not to mention somewhat heavy and a bitch to set up in the dark. -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:19 EDT 1994 Article: 107 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!abrez From: abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Ratings system... Date: 15 Sep 1994 20:20:14 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL Lines: 30 Message-ID: <35aa9u$nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu A couple posts have stressed the need for PRIORITIES: what's more important, a gun or a can opener, a radio or surplus blankets. I propose a ratings system for use within the group, something which could allow someone to post: "I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo should be a category 2 item." and everyone could tell what they were saying, rather than having to describe the conditions under which items would be necessary. I'm thinking of something like Rating Description 1 Absolutely Necessary 2 Necessary 3 Important 4 Useful 5 Luxury 6 Stupid 7 Dangerous I'm new at this, so let the flames begin!!! Aaron Brezenski "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me." Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati "If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion." "... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:20 EDT 1994 Article: 108 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!world!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: RE:FBI (THIS IS *NOT* TALK.POLITICS.GUNS!!!) Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 22:20:54 GMT Lines: 26 In article <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes: |> HEY, BUD! |> You ought to know better than to *TRY* to start this topic of discussion |> over on this group. Is this in reference to the post about the possibility of US civilians fighting US military? Actually, I found that message to ask interesting questions about the (probably remote) possibility of a catastrophic breakdown in our societal and governmental structure. I'm referring to the message by Shane Ahern, the fellow who also asked about whether any of us planned to attempt to use the internet during disasters, as it was designed for. This is also an interesting question to me. Iraq used our own internet during the war, and they were in a survival situation if there ever was one. The internet was also a critical communications pathway during the collapse of the soviet government. I think that question was a good one as well. My personal answer to Mr. Ahern would be that I do not anticipate that level of preparedness and sophistication into the foreseeable future, mostly due to a lack of funds. As far as the first subject goes, I was quite interested in thinking about the subjects brought up by Mr. Ahern and found them relevant to the subject of survival. Robert Holder From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:20 EDT 1994 Article: 109 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!world!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: PLEASE! KEEP OUR SUBJECT MATTER PURE Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <35a9p8$g7p@uudell.us.dell.com> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 22:28:33 GMT Lines: 31 hm. Frank Langham, whose other messages I found to be very interesting, says... "...enemies of our mindset..." *whose* mindset? While I agree with many of Mr. Langham's points, I suspect I do not agree with his politics, and that's fine by me. Democracy in action. But the "enemies of our mindset" thing makes me uncomfortable. He also goes on to say... "I hope this is the very last time I will have to..." ...I thought this group *didn't* have a moderator. I look forward to your messages about survivalism, Mr. Langham. Perhaps you'll find usenet more palatable if you explore the function of killfiles. I find that they reduce the "irrelevance factor" quite well. And as far as the "government and anti-gun" factions that are trying to "discredit us", I can only wonder who "us" is. I do not speak for you Mr. Langham. That's why I have enjoyed those first messages of yours I read: they were educational for me. Please do not presume to speak for me. Regards, Robert Holder Denver, Colorado From cyberthug@aol.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:21 EDT 1994 Article: 110 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: cyberthug@aol.com (CyberThug) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:38:01 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 39 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <35b0e9$dv3@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: <359p3b$hg1@selway.umt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article <359p3b$hg1@selway.umt.edu>, velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) writes: >I think you are after the solar still idea here. You dig a hole several >times greater in diameter than your container (#10 cans are great, but >you can use anything, pie plate, air cleaner lid, hubcap, you get the >picture). You place your container at the bottom of the hole and, if >available, put a piece of tubing down in the bottom. Then, lay a sheet >of plastic, nylon, car headliner, whatever over the hole. Weight the edges >of the sheet in place and place a stone in the center. Water will condense >and drip down into the container. In a long-term survival situation, I >would boil this water and/or filter it just to be safe. In an emergency, >it should be potable. This is also a good place to extract the water from your cactus. Some cacti are so unpalatable that they can make you vomit (which is absolutely counter-productive in a desert survival situation). Also other organic matter, questionable water, or anything else you can think of that might have water in it can go in your solar still- including radiator fluid. I've never heard of having to boil water from a solar still, after all, it's been distilled. Just make sure nothing potentially dangerous gets too close to your clean water collector inside the still. BTW, black or clear plastic work best, I keep a large sheet of clear plastic and a plastic tube in my bail-out kit (clear because you can see what's going on in there). Also keep in mind that these things are not real efficient. If you're lucky, one still _might_ provide enough water for one person (about a cup or two a day). That's if you stay in the shade and do NOTHING during the heat of the day. But that's another desert survival thread. Best not use up all our material too soon. PS - I think the smooth rocks over a cup may be something entirely different from the solar still. Although I've never heard of it, it sounds plausible that you collect dew at night that way. Kevin aka CyberThug From lauramc@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:23 EDT 1994 Article: 111 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!news.utdallas.edu!corpgate!bnrgate!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!freenet3.scri.fsu.edu!freenet3.scri.fsu.edu!not-for-mail From: lauramc@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu (Laura McDonald) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: storing grains Date: 15 Sep 1994 19:54:29 -0400 Organization: Tallahassee Free-Net Lines: 9 Message-ID: <35amrl$29o@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet3.scri.fsu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] so to get this thing started off (with out the guns and such), what is a good way to store grain and greens without the 'frig. and other machinery ie: ala natural, without it molding over the winter months (exp. in areas like florida)? -- **!!** Laura **!!** #1 FSU fan From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:23 EDT 1994 Article: 112 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 02:33:20 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35b05g$gd0@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> <35akjg$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Gerald Brennan (gbrennan@umich.edu) wrote: : George Guillory (guillory@blkbox.com) wrote: : : Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that : : the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms : : (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. : But that's crazy. As unpleasant and _presumably_ irrelevant as these : topics may be to some, they are indeed part of the picture, and should : not be ignored. Those who don't wish to participate in those threads, if : they develop, need not do so. The gun forums are not designed : _specifically_ for the survivalist point-of-view. The problem I see about running a thread of more that one or two messages about guns is that unfortunately they get longer and longer, non-gun discussers move off and you would end up with a survival gun (mostly news group. Look at what happended to Survive and American Survival Guide (who is scraping back from such a move.) Now if someone wanted to start misc.survivalism.guns that is another matter. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:24 EDT 1994 Article: 113 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Reinforced Concrete Specifications? Date: 16 Sep 1994 02:42:41 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <35b0n1$gd0@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Murray Brain Calvert (mcalvert@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA) wrote: : I am planning to build an earth-sheltered house in the country (None of : your business where!). I would like the structure to withstand a major : earthquake or atomic blast from 10 miles away. I estimate that the load : could be 2000 pounds per square foot. Has anyone out there built a : reinforced concrete structure that could advise me on references for : structural engineering? Also I can't find much about design life, i.e. : how long before the rebar rusts. A good book on this subject is "The Survival Home Manual" by Joel Skousen. He does consultancy work also. The edition I have is 1982 and has an address of Joel Skousen, Survival Homes Corp, 4270 Westcliff Dr., Hood River, OR, 97031. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From arr@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:25 EDT 1994 Article: 114 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!arr From: arr@netcom.com (Angel Rivera) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 21:55:33 GMT Lines: 17 Who cares? What does this have to do with survivalism? In article , Benjamin Johnson wrote: >homosexuals in the "Christian" rightwing, such as: >Eustace Mullins, author of Secrets of the Federal Reserve, allegedly >arrested in New York state for sodomizing a young boy in the '50s. > >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. > >Anyone know anything about this? I'd like to know. > From bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:26 EDT 1994 Article: 115 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!oucsace!bjohnson From: bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Benjamin Johnson) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens References: <35a6eu$91@illuminati.io.com> Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 23:04:37 GMT Lines: 20 Many postings have been run asking what this has to do with survivalism. I posted this on this newsgroup, because there are, from what I gather, considerable folks in the survivalist camp who are involved with groups like these, and perhaps they would have some information on one way or another. I don't know whether these charges are true or not and thought someone here might be able to provide this kind of info. I don't have a clue what goes on in those circles of the ideological spectrum. This has importance to survivalists who ARE in these groups, because if they're true, then the members are following charlatans and possibly being monitored by Big Brother, none of which is compatible with survivalist ideology, as defined by this group. I appreciate all responses and hope someone knows something about this. Thanks so much, BEN JOHNSON From sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Fri Sep 16 04:25:27 EDT 1994 Article: 116 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!sybok From: sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: The Gun Ban Date: 16 Sep 1994 03:03:57 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35b1ut$979@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> References: <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: m1-142-25.mit.edu In article <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: >I stole a MAK. How did a common criminal like yourself get net access? If this is how much you respect others' rights, maybe you should join ATF. >I also found an 80-round drum magazine from China and a >night scope. My friend knows about a really good gunsmith with all >the tools we need to make it fully automatic. Before converting it, check to make sure it's operating correctly. The muzzle is a viewport. Look in and operate the trigger. From kovar@nda.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:28 EDT 1994 Article: 117 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgiblab!news.kgc.com!kpc!NewsWatcher!user From: kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 10:35:50 -0800 Organization: Net Daemons Associates, Inc. Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.52.104.196 In article <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu>, Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) wrote: > I heard you got a Sten. My friends and me picked up a Mini-14. I got > it with a night scope and a night scope. It's cool. I heard about a > gunsmith with all the tools we need to make it fully automatic. > > -------- > For more information about this anonymous posting service,please send mail > to remailer@csua.berkeley.edu with Subject: remailer-info. > -------- Just for anyone who is confused, that last paragraph is automatically generated by some of the anonymous remailers. They are assuming that all their traffic is monitored and are hoping to overload any monitoring software, or at least to generate sufficient noise to make it less useful. Or so I understand things ..... -David From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Fri Sep 16 04:25:29 EDT 1994 Article: 118 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:59:09 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 12 Message-ID: <35aqkt$rq6$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> > and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most > versatile platform? You might want to start with your ammo and work backwards. You will need a gun that has bullets. Figure out the ammo part and the gun decision will be made for you. -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Those that beat guns into plows will plow for those that don't. From basiji@u.washington.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:30 EDT 1994 Article: 119 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!basiji From: basiji@u.washington.edu (David Basiji) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 01:07:35 GMT Organization: University of Washington Lines: 24 Message-ID: <35ar4n$q41@news.u.washington.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> <359voh$ij8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stein3.u.washington.edu rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: >I like Duane Mantick and David Basiji's attitudes, and I agree >about the .22 ...after feeding $16+ into my glock at the range >time after time I grew to miss buying .22 cartridges in those >terrific little "milk carton" containers by the 500 count for >$6 or so! >Duane (and others) do you have any experience with the .30-.30? >Is lever action reliable? It seemed to me like a good compromise >between rabbit caliber and man-stopper, and the rifles I have seen >are generally shorter in overall length--more easily handled in >close quarters. What are your opinions, if any? The 30-30 is a good short-medium range round (out to 150 yards or so). It's been around forever and a day and is relatively cheap. My opinion of lever actions is that they are reliable but heavy and not as accurate as a good bolt action. The rifles tend to be shorter but weigh as much as a longer bolt-action gun. Also note that they aren't easy to deal with from a prone position because they need clearance below to work the action. On the other hand, because the cocking and ejection are symmetrical, they're nice for lefties. The top ejection does makes it tricky to mount a scope. David Basiji UW Bioengineering From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Fri Sep 16 04:25:31 EDT 1994 Article: 120 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:17:17 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 49 Message-ID: <35ao6d$gsu@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article n1K@bigtop.dr.att.com, rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: >The number one cause of sickness from unsterilized water is >from a bacteria called (I think) giardia . This >bacteria makes you sick as a dog, but I don't think it's fatal. >It occurs in mountain streams as well as stagnant water. Also, >if an animal dies upstream and decomposes, other bacteria can >get in the water. > >There are a variety of ways to sterilize water, but the simplest >is to bring it to a brisk boil for ten minutes. New factoid: according to Dr. Erich Weiss, creater of the Adventure (?) first aid kits, ER doctor at Stanford University, and expert at wilderness medicine, you don't have to boil the water for 10 minutes. He says that Giardia, as well as all bacteria and viruses, are killed by the time that water reaches the boiling point. At higher altitudes water boils at lower temps so you might want to let the water boil a minute or so to be sure. Here is what he said in a seminar: * Giardia cysts die at about 140 F * Viruses are killed by the time water comes to a boil. (sorry I don't have temps). I carry PolarPure iodine crystals in solution with me to purify water since Iodine will reportedly kill anything in the water. Despite rumours, I've never heard of anyone who was injured by drinking iodine treated water for long periods of time. Dr. Weiss could not confirm it either. IMHO PolarPure is the best way to go. Lighter, cheaper, and more reliable than mechanical filters, and it will kill viruses, which filters will not get. The only drawback is you have to wait a while after putting in the iodine for it to purify the water. I carry two quart bottles so I can always have one to drink from while the other is purifying. I don't purify cooking water, since boiling it will purify it. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From velkey@selway.umt.edu Fri Sep 16 04:25:32 EDT 1994 Article: 121 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!selway.umt.edu!not-for-mail From: velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 15 Sep 1994 19:36:58 -0600 Organization: University of Montana, Missoula Lines: 40 Message-ID: <35asrq$m22@selway.umt.edu> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu In article , Sean A. Long wrote: > >From my experience teaching SERE Survival at USAFA two years, you want at >the very least to keep your sleeping bag dry at all costs. This means some >sort of cover on top (even 'chute material sheds rain when stretched tight), >and some sort of platform to keep the bag off the ground. We use both >parachute material and rubberized ponchos during training for cover, and >teach the students to built up out of pine needles, branches, etc. some sort >of base to keep the bag out of any ground runoff. Even a water-repellent >sleeping bag will lose LOTS of heat if it comes in contact with water, and >will eventually become wet/waterlogged unless both completely sealed, >rubberized, and NEW (no waterproofing scratched off). This type of top and >bottom protection also keeps the bag clean which enhances thermal protection >characteristics as well. I've tried it in the field, it works. The warmest >I've ever been at night in the woods was on a 1 ft thick bed of pine >branches under a parachute stretched out about 10 ft up, with about 20 other >instructors packed in under the same 'chute... Toasty! > >-=>Sean Long Great advice, here, but let's rememember one thing about Bough Beds: they are very good insulators but should only be used in an emergencey/survival situtation. If everybody and their brother began experimenting with this, we would have a heck of a lot less trees around. Know how to make one, yes. Practice, no. The military can "afford" to have it's people strip the land it "owns", but we can't. Part of survival depends on resources you can survive on actually being around. Note that in certain regions (ie Deep South), some very pesky things like to live in pine trees (CHIGGERS!). That Spanish Moss would make a nice insulator, too. But it houses even more creepy crawlies! I do not intend to start "save the forest,hug a tree" granola B.S. here, but I thought I would just pipe up since people are looking here for technical advice and are (hopefuly) apt to practice their learning. Andrew J. Velkey Dept of Psychology, Univ. of MT Grad Student, etc. From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:33 EDT 1994 Article: 122 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!world!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Sender: news@bigtop.dr.att.com (Netnews Administration Login) Organization: ATT - GBCS Denver Labs References: <35a6eu$91@illuminati.io.com> Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 01:09:17 GMT Lines: 7 just to fan the flames here... Ben Johnson, try the soc.* family of newsgroups or...? I have to agree that the internal machinations of *any* political party probably don't belong here. rdh From falstaff@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:34 EDT 1994 Article: 123 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!falstaff From: falstaff@netcom.com (anthony m. vervoort) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 23:54:30 GMT Lines: 18 rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: >Henry T Robertson (htrst1+@pitt.edu) wrote: >: In article , >: Benjamin Johnson wrote: >: >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >: >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. >: There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves >: from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. >*****What relevance does this have to this newsgroup? yeah, if you want to go trolling, try the personals newsgroups. From robertb@comtch.iea.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:35 EDT 1994 Article: 124 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!krel.iea.com!comtch!robertb From: robertb@comtch.iea.com (Robert Blanchard) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Low Cost .. Low Tech Date: 16 Sep 1994 06:38:45 GMT Organization: CompuTech, Spokane WA Lines: 21 Message-ID: <35behl$cgf@krel.iea.com> References: <359vvn$cse@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: comtch.iea.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Frank Langham (Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com) wrote: : And... Lets not forget tools, archery equipment and fishing gear. : all are inexpensive and reusable... : ...when you run out of MREs and Ammo... then? : ...Likewise, when you run out of water purification chemicals and filters, : you can still use distillation techniques etc. : =Frank= : P.S. MREs and Ammo fall more under the "Emergency Preparedness" category : while blades, fishing gear, and archery are more toward prolonged : Survival category. YES. Most people prepare for a situation that they see lasting only a short time. also add to the list of long term gear: hand grain mill, learn to make sour dough starter, and alcohol and a blacksmithing course wouldnt hurt either. I've seen to many survivalists with a closet full of weapons and they don't even know how to tan a hide or plant a tomato. Robert robertb@comtch.iea.com From locasso@tis.com Fri Sep 16 04:25:36 EDT 1994 Article: 125 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:43:41 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35a14d$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> References: <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com> Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article 1jv@rigel.infinet.com, lovecraf@infinet.com (Ed Michalski) writes: > > There are certain gas additives which can prolong the life of stored > gasoline far greater than our lifetimes. > Ed, Can you tell us what these additives are? Are they easily available? Expensive? Where can we get them? Rosaria Locasso From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 04:41:11 EDT 1994 Article: 126 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: PRIORITIES...PRIORITIES...Hmmmmmm... Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:55:02 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 33 Message-ID: <35a1pm$dhl@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 OKAY!...Now we are cooking on all burners... ... Add "COMMUNICATIONS" to the list.............BUT... ...Where to draw the line?... Obviously, some items are of higher priority than others. Preparedness is largely dependant on your budget, time and resources (not to mention commitment) so, I would like to foster some focus on priorities based on "criticality of need" and cost, weight, etc... We all must start somewhere and acquire knowledge, tools, commodities, real-estate, etc in some order and within some constraints. The less time and money a person has to dedicate to Survival or Preparedness, the more important it is to have his/her priorities clearly defined and documented so a plan can be systematically developed and executed. Obviously, we could say that Power Generators, Ham Radio, and underground shelters are important and desirable but there are so many options and considerations in developing MY personal plan of action that I am T-TOTALLY overwhelmed by the task. As with any such endeavor, I must outline the basic structure and categories of focus for my plan so that I can perform tasks and acquisitions in order of importance to the goal... "To provide and ensure good physical and psychological health allow in the presence of aggression or the absence of civilized services". IDEALLY, a well prioritized list of what to get/do first and next will be useful to anyone with any budget. (Note: Although I do not view Security as the most important survival goal, I chose to acquire guns and ammo first because the acquisition thereof is currently jeapordized by current and pending legislation). Sooooo... Please help me, yourself, and others by letting us know what *YOUR* priorities are and how you would approach this gargantuan task. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE! =FRANK= From london@.unc.edu Fri Sep 16 04:41:12 EDT 1994 Article: 127 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!!london From: london@.unc.edu (Larry London) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Date: 16 Sep 1994 08:44:49 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35blu1$kte@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> <35a3ca$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: calzone.oit.unc.edu Keywords: safe water bacteria streams ponds In article , 131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 wrote: >I like not having a moderator, but perhaps some of us could >voluteer to collect and collate the information on this newsgroup? >I can help out for this month, but after that, my net access goes >away. I'm doing that at sunSITE.unc.edu. Send me the information you collect and I'll archive it in my misc.survivalism ftp/Gopher area. london@sunSITE.unc.edu From ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:40 EDT 1994 Article: 1 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!agate!obelisk!ahern From: ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 14 Sep 1994 21:26:19 GMT Organization: The Mockle Group Lines: 1 Message-ID: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: obelisk.berkeley.edu Are there any true survivalists out there? From dputzolu@sal.cs.uiuc.edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:41 EDT 1994 Article: 2 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sal!dputzolu From: dputzolu@sal.cs.uiuc.edu (David Putzolu) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 14 Sep 1994 21:39:08 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 21 Message-ID: <357qhs$l1p@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sal.cs.uiuc.edu ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes: >Are there any true survivalists out there? Probably depends on what you mean by the phrase, "survivalist." Undoubtedly, the number of "dig a bunker in the back yard against a Russian first strike" type survivalists has decreased. However, we are all survivalists, of a sort. The primary difference is one of degree - some of us just plan out how to survive the day at work; some plan how to survive such things as debilitating illness (ie, insurance); and some plan how to survive major catastrophies such as war or economic collapse. + David M. Putzolu - dputzolu@cs.uiuc.edu - My opinions only + + ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ finger for pgp2.6 public key + + "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest + + reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as + + a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. + + - Thomas Jefferson, proposed Virginia constitution, June 1776. + + 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950) + From greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com Fri Sep 16 13:23:42 EDT 1994 Article: 3 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!male.EBay.Sun.COM!antizen!greg From: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com (Yes, I'm still here...) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Wilderness Medicine Course Date: 14 Sep 1994 22:01:46 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 43 Distribution: world Message-ID: <357rsa$81n@male.EBay.Sun.COM> Reply-To: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com Any disaster or civil disturbance can transform where you live into a medical W I L D E R N E S S Earthbound Medical Rescue is the current Wilderness Medicine training contractor for the Department of the Interior, Geological Survey. Earthbound is holding their Fall session Wilderness Medicine course and workshop on October 8 & 9 at Alum Rock Park in San Jose, CA from 8:30 to dark. The cost is $150.00. A discount is available for Earthbound alumni and Sierra Club members. No prerequisite is required, however prior first-aid training is helpful. A certificate of completion will be given upon completion of the course. The curriculum is the same that is currently being taught to the field personnel from the Dept. of the Interior, Geological Survey and is a specialized combination of lecture, demonstration, hands-on practicals and scenarios designed to provide participants with a focussed working knowledge and skills in first-aid required to provide care for those injured or ill hours or days away from communications with emergency medical services or care by a physician. Registration should be completed by Oct. 3. Checks should be made payable to: Earthbound Medical Rescue 390 N. 12th st. San Jose, CA 95112 For further information call 408/275-9542. From danr305@bnr.ca Fri Sep 16 13:23:42 EDT 1994 Article: 4 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!news.utdallas.edu!corpgate!crchh327.bnr.ca!danr305 From: danr305@bnr.ca (KSquare) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 14 Sep 1994 17:25:37 -0500 Organization: Fredricks of Hollywood Field Test Div. Lines: 10 Sender: danr305@bnr.ca (Kerry Kelly) Distribution: world Message-ID: <357t91$cfk@crchh7a0.bnr.ca> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: crchh7a0.bnr.ca Of what genre? Late 70's/early 80's ("Oh no! The russians are gonna nuke us!), mid->late 80's (Lets form our own religon (or governmentese: CULT)), or early->mid 90's ("Oh no! Our own Government is gonna nuke us!). Be more specific, please.... Kerry My opinions, blah, blah, blah.... From btl1@Isis.MsState.Edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:43 EDT 1994 Article: 5 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!Isis.MsState.Edu!btl1 From: btl1@Isis.MsState.Edu (Ben T. Loftis) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: What is Earthbound? Date: 14 Sep 1994 23:02:38 GMT Organization: Mississippi State University Lines: 9 Message-ID: <357vee$4tp@Tut.MsState.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: isis.msstate.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] The title says it all...... Post the answer here or send it to me directly. Thanks in advance -Ben Loftis btl1@ra.mssstate.edu From seanm@core.rose.hp.com Fri Sep 16 13:23:44 EDT 1994 Article: 6 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!ncar!csn!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon!seanm From: seanm@core.rose.hp.com (Sean Miller) Subject: What is meant by Light Aircraft Crew Sender: news@icon.rose.hp.com (News Administrator) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 22:50:59 GMT Organization: HP - Information Networks Division X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6] Lines: 8 In the description for misc.survivalism "light aircraft crew" was mentioned. Does this mean maintaining a personal ultralight type aircraft for transporta- tion during some kind of disaster? Sean Miller From sasha@aquila.dartmouth.edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:45 EDT 1994 Article: 7 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!news.bu.edu!dartvax.dartmouth.edu!sasha From: sasha@aquila.dartmouth.edu (Alexander V. Khrabrov) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 15 Sep 1994 00:52:15 GMT Organization: Project NORTHSTAR, Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH Lines: 9 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3585rv$826@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: aquila.dartmouth.edu In article <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes: > Are there any true survivalists out there? Yep, I, for one, am trying to survive all the time! Alex. From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Fri Sep 16 13:23:45 EDT 1994 Article: 8 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to t.. Date: 15 Sep 1994 03:14:20 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 9 Message-ID: <358e6c$jb4$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> I hope we can all be called "true" survivalists. Survivalist theory has many niches...How about educating us as to what you think a "true" survivalist is. -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns have. From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Fri Sep 16 13:23:46 EDT 1994 Article: 9 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to t.. Date: 15 Sep 1994 03:32:45 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 30 Message-ID: <358f8t$jb4$2@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> References: <3585rv$826@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> I use the "Storm Theory". Prepare for a *BIG* storm, say a hurricane. What do you need for that kind of storm. You need a lot of different things for that situation. Now, you people in the non-hurricane areas can relate to tornados, blizzards, etc. It is the same for these situations as well. Now, take it one step further... A hurricane in which you and your family must survive 10 days without food or water...a hurricane where you and your neighbors will confront looters on a daily basis for those ten days. A struggle for life itself. Take it further...30 days...60 days. Using this theory, you will be prepared for the worst...a hurricane. Let's say that ANY other disaster comes, you are prepared. Its easy to say to friends, relatives, neighbors, and others that I am prepared for "THE STORM". Basically, what I am saying is that you don't have to have an attitude that the Russians or the CIA are coming for you...Prepare for a major "Storm" and if its a storm or Russians, or the CIA, you are prepared. I'm not saying this is definitive, but it is a good place to start. It takes away from the stigma that Survivalism is BAD. -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns have. From troy@phoenix.cs.uga.edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:47 EDT 1994 Article: 10 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!pirates!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!hobbes.cc.uga.edu!phoenix.cs.uga.edu!troy From: troy@phoenix.cs.uga.edu () Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Book recommendations Date: 15 Sep 1994 04:09:08 GMT Organization: University of Georgia, Athens Lines: 16 Message-ID: <358hd4$mkq@hobbes.cc.uga.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: phoenix.cs.uga.edu I'm looking for recommendations on complete and up to date books on survivalism. Currently I've got Conway's DISASTER SURVIVAL, published in 1981. I'm looking for a more up to date copy, or something more complete. Any ideas? ___________ / \ "Send Lawyers, Guns, and lots of Money ... | R. I. P. | the shit has hit the fan." - Dennis Leary | | | Constitution | "If there had been more paranoid Jews ... | of the | there would be more Jews." - Me | United States | | of America | Troy Allen Johnson | 1787 - 1994 | troy@phoenix.cs.uga.edu \\|_______________|// From bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:48 EDT 1994 Article: 11 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!sun!oucsace!bjohnson From: bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Benjamin Johnson) Subject: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens I was told by Dr. John Coleman that there are huge numbers of Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 00:55:52 GMT Lines: 9 homosexuals in the "Christian" rightwing, such as: Eustace Mullins, author of Secrets of the Federal Reserve, allegedly arrested in New York state for sodomizing a young boy in the '50s. James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. Anyone know anything about this? I'd like to know. From rpayne@rmii.com Fri Sep 16 13:23:49 EDT 1994 Article: 12 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!potogold.rmii.com!rainbow!rpayne From: rpayne@rmii.com (Robert Payne) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 15 Sep 1994 06:48:04 GMT Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet Inc Lines: 37 Message-ID: <358qn4$93q@potogold.rmii.com> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhs$l1p@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rmii.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] David Putzolu (dputzolu@sal.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote: : ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes: : >Are there any true survivalists out there? : Probably depends on what you mean by the phrase, "survivalist." : Undoubtedly, the number of "dig a bunker in the back yard against : a Russian first strike" type survivalists has decreased. I don't believe many people fear the 'Red' threat today. : However, we are all survivalists, of a sort. The primary difference is : one of degree - some of us just plan out how to survive the day : at work; some plan how to survive such things as debilitating : illness (ie, insurance); and some plan how to survive major : catastrophies such as war or economic collapse. Rather, attention has turned to how to survive the threat posed by our own government, ala Randy Weaver, the Waco massacre, etc. The 'survivalist' has now looked to the 'organized' militias that have begun to form in various regions, concerned about that dreaded day that the knock on the door comes (or no-knock) and the agents of the government enter to sieze 'illegal' weapons and ammunition. : + "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest + : + reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as + : + a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. + : + - Thomas Jefferson, proposed Virginia constitution, June 1776. + : + 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950) + Remember! -- Robert Payne NRA Politically incorrect, and damn sure intend NRA/ILA to stay that way! CRA From ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Fri Sep 16 13:23:50 EDT 1994 Article: 13 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!terrazzo.lm.com!not-for-mail From: ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: looking for a few good people. Date: 15 Sep 1994 02:02:20 -0400 Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <358o1c$ccc@terrazzo.lm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: terrazzo.lm.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] hello, we have a new group of non-radical survivalists starting in the south west Pa. area. we talk about ways to prepare and what to do. we also practice what we learn by exploring,caving,canning,dring food ect... we need men and women alike. we deal with communications to shelters. we have found it to be easier to have a group project than evey one doing it by the,m selfs. anyone interested please e-mail me. any one who wants to exchange info, e-mail me. thanks kevin -- kevin gaudi ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com From htrst1+@pitt.edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:50 EDT 1994 Article: 14 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsfeed.pitt.edu!htrst1 From: htrst1+@pitt.edu (Henry T Robertson) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Date: 15 Sep 1994 06:38:45 GMT Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 12 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: unixs2.cis.pitt.edu In article , Benjamin Johnson wrote: >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. From bhampton@golden.ncw.net Fri Sep 16 13:23:52 EDT 1994 Article: 15 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!nwnexus!golden.ncw.net!golden!bhampton From: bhampton@golden.ncw.net (Brad Hampton) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 05:47:35 GMT Organization: North Central Washington Network Lines: 19 Message-ID: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: golden.ncw.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] This area can be used to let others know about items and instruction that may be had or to express ideas to over come problems from growing plants in a guarden to hard core stuff i am in the navy on guam and am home on leave and as a citizen i can see a storm on our horizion mabe civil war? or mabe the big earth quake i don't know about you people but i like to be prepaired for emergencyes i have saved lives. ...sorry about the spelling... does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? x=1-5 5-20 20-50 50-+ is ther a rule of thum ie. for every gal. of stored fuel add 3 months? -- -------------------- bhampton@ncw.net From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:23:53 EDT 1994 Article: 16 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ns.mcs.kent.edu!kira.cc.uakron.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!news.cps.udayton.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!ncar!ames!lll-winken.llnl.gov!koriel!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Date: 15 Sep 1994 13:20:58 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 20 Message-ID: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 IMHO, Survival Equals = : * Water * Food * Security (=guns & concealment & non-provocative attitude) * Shelter ... In that order... Comments? =Frank= From ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Fri Sep 16 13:23:54 EDT 1994 Article: 17 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!terrazzo.lm.com!not-for-mail From: ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Book recommendations Date: 15 Sep 1994 02:59:16 -0400 Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 38 Message-ID: <358rc4$ch3@terrazzo.lm.com> References: <358hd4$mkq@hobbes.cc.uga.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: terrazzo.lm.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] troy@phoenix.cs.uga.edu wrote: > I'm looking for recommendations on complete and up to date > books on survivalism. Currently I've got Conway's DISASTER > SURVIVAL, published in 1981. I'm looking for a more up to > date copy, or something more complete. Any ideas? > ___________ > / \ "Send Lawyers, Guns, and lots of Money ... > | R. I. P. | the shit has hit the fan." - Dennis Leary > | | > | Constitution | "If there had been more paranoid Jews ... > | of the | there would be more Jews." - Me > | United States | > | of America | Troy Allen Johnson > | 1787 - 1994 | troy@phoenix.cs.uga.edu > \\|_______________|// here is a recomended list of books to read: survival family by mary and tom bergman, rr2 morgan,ut.84050 life after doomsday by bruce d. clayton passport tyo survival by ester dickey, random house,n.y. how to live on nothing by joan ransom shortney, doubleday and co. how to be prepared for any crisis, roland page, hawks publishing. putting food by, by bantam books. this is a good selection of books. any more info you may require, just e-mail me. i list premade up for anyone how wants them for medical supplies to food packs and info txt files on what to do. THE SURVIVAL NETWORK THE RED DAWN UNIT -- kevin gaudi ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com From rwalters@bu.edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:55 EDT 1994 Article: 18 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!news.bu.edu!rwalters From: rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 13:38:19 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs4.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] STEPHENSON (dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote: : These kinds of things and this group made me think: : Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons : of some sort? I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't seen any posts on the subject *sigh* Maybe I'll have to post some files on the subject to straighten things out. Ron (rwalters@acs.bu.edu) P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? From rwalters@bu.edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:55 EDT 1994 Article: 19 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!udel!nntp.sunbelt.net!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!gw1.att.com!news.bu.edu!rwalters From: rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Date: 15 Sep 1994 13:33:31 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 14 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> References: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs4.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Henry T Robertson (htrst1+@pitt.edu) wrote: : In article , : Benjamin Johnson wrote: : >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not : >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. : There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves : from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. *****What relevance does this have to this newsgroup? From nobody@csua.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:56 EDT 1994 Article: 20 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!udel!nntp.sunbelt.net!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU!remailer From: Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Survivalists and Computers Date: 15 Sep 1994 13:47:26 GMT Organization: none Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.csua.berkeley.edu Errors-To: nobody@soda.berkeley.edu Originator: remailer@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU I just wanted to bring this subject up. Survivalism has many facets, but a facet people are becoming more interested in these days is the threat of fascistic goverment. One of the most important aspects of defense against this situation is communication. With the digital telephony bill about to be passed through congress that will mandate wiretap-capable phone systems, evasion of electronic eavesdropping will be crucial to this fight. Anyone concerned about this _must_ educate himself about the use of networks, encryption, and anonymity. A good first step is getting PGP (available from ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks), installing it, and making it a habit to use it. Another place to get info is gopher://chaos.bsu.edu. I heard you got a Sten. My friends and me picked up a Mini-14. I got it with a night scope and a night scope. It's cool. I heard about a gunsmith with all the tools we need to make it fully automatic. -------- For more information about this anonymous posting service,please send mail to remailer@csua.berkeley.edu with Subject: remailer-info. -------- From mdrake@mercury.interpath.net Fri Sep 16 13:23:57 EDT 1994 Article: 21 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!psinntp!unvax.union.edu!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!mercury!mdrake From: mdrake@mercury.interpath.net (Matthias Drake) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Tri-States Philosophy? Date: 15 Sep 1994 04:17:28 GMT Organization: Interpath -- Providing Internet access to North Carolina Lines: 6 Message-ID: <358hso$481@redstone.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mercury.interpath.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Does anyone know that this is? I have seen it mentioned in several survival magazines but I don't know what it is. Can someone clue me in? Thanks in advance. Matt From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Fri Sep 16 13:23:58 EDT 1994 Article: 22 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 15 Sep 1994 07:12:05 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 107 Message-ID: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> Some may wonder what survivalism is all about... Here is a sample of what you need to get started on... (This list is VERY, VERY, VERY incomplete) COMMUNICATIONS SPANISH, OTHER LANGUAGES CODES AND ENCRYPTION ELECTRONICS SIGN LANGUAGE, OTHER HAND SIGNALS RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WRITTEN CODES CLASSIFIED ADS COMMUNICATION JAMMING RADIO SIGNALS WORKING IN JAMMED AREAS MORSE CODE FARMING WILD FOODS HORSES, CARE AND RAISING PACK ANIMALS, LLAMAS, MULES, ETC. DOGS, ATTACK AND TRACKING ANIMAL HUSBANDRY SCATTER FARMING, NO ROWS INSECT CONTROL, 1800’S STYLE CROP ROTATION AND NATURAL FERTILIZERS SURVIVAL TRAPPING, SURVIVAL TOPICS WATER AND FOOD FROM DIFFERENT ECO SYSTEMS SURVIVAL, VARIOUS TERRAINS AND AREAS WATER EXTRACTION AND PRESERVATION NUTRITION VIETNAMESE ARMY TACTICS SURVIVING NUCLEAR SURVIVING BIO-WARFARE SURVIVING CHEM-WARFARE FIGHTING CHEMISTRY RELOADING GUNSMITHING SILENCERS FULL AUTO CONVERSION BOOBYTRAPS STEALTH TECHNIQUES EXPLOSIVES, REUSE HIGH EXPLOSIVES EXPLOSIVES FROM JUNK AND HOUSEHOLD ITEMS CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS FROM HOUSEHOLD ITEMS 1800’S LIFESTYLES FOOD PREPARATION FOOD PRESERVATION METAL WORKING BASKETWEAVING METALWORKING SEWING, MAKING CLOTH WOODWORKING HIDES TANNING ORIENTEERING ASTRONOMY COMPASS CORRECTIONS NIGHTTIME ORIENTEERING COVERING YOUR TRAIL MOVING GREAT DISTANCES WITH NO SIGN URBAN SURVIVAL LOCKSMITHING HOTWIRING AUTOS ALARM SYSTEMS HIGH SPEED DRIVING WEAPONS FROM JUNK BEATING INFRA RED DETECTION MOVING IN RUBBLE ENVIRONMENTS HIJACKING CONSTRUCTION 1800’S STYLE CONSTRUCTION LOG CONSTRUCTION HOMEMADE NAILS UNDERGROUND CONSTRUCTION EXCAVATION CONCEALMENT SUPPORT AND FRAMING AIR HANDLING THATCH CONSTRUCTION HOMEMADE CONCRETE HOMEMADE BRICKS BUILDING A KILN MEDICINE CREATING MEDICINES HOME REMEDIES WILD FOODS AS MEDICINES FIRST AID LONG TERM TRAUMA CARE ACCUMULATE PRESCRIPTION DRUGS MEDICAL CARE IN THE ABSCENCE OF A DOCTOR -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns have. From ncochran@perth.DIALix.oz.au Fri Sep 16 13:23:59 EDT 1994 Article: 23 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ns.mcs.kent.edu!kira.cc.uakron.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!news.cps.udayton.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!DIALix!not-for-mail From: ncochran@perth.DIALix.oz.au (Nathan Cochrane) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Hullo Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:00:05 +0800 Organization: DIALix Services, Perth, Western Australia Lines: 7 Sender: ncochran@perth.DIALix.oz.au Message-ID: <359ggl$pai$1@perth.dialix.oz.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: perth.dialix.oz.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9] Just thought I would pop my head in and see what's up. Interesting to see how th is groups evolves. From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Fri Sep 16 13:23:59 EDT 1994 Article: 24 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Date: 15 Sep 1994 08:55:57 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 27 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <359g8t$e46@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article , Benjamin Johnson wrote: >homosexuals in the "Christian" rightwing, such as: >Eustace Mullins, author of Secrets of the Federal Reserve, allegedly >arrested in New York state for sodomizing a young boy in the '50s. > >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. > >Anyone know anything about this? I'd like to know. > Well, I don't know. I doubt anyone really does. But it has been my observation that many small right-wing organizations become far too embroiled in interpersonal politics and petty disputes, and all too often results in someone or some group being labeled as "homosexuals". I'll listen to what the speakers/authors have to say and disregard any bitter and jealous rumor mongering. We simply do not have time for that. [Not that this has anything to do with survivalism, right?] ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:00 EDT 1994 Article: 25 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 09:16:35 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 61 Message-ID: <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu>, STEPHENSON wrote: > > >Hello, a girl from my church has these kooky relatives >(I say kooky, but in light of recent events...maybe not) >who are christian survivalists and they have guns and other >stuff stocked up. One of my friends got a Mak-90(sp?) >assault rifle with a couple of 30 shot banana clips. >Having the Mak-90 with the clips really won't do him much >good, though.He only has about 20 bullets for it. > >These kinds of things and this group made me think: >Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >of some sort? >I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have >food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and >that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things >you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the >survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. > >Dave >-- > >dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu > > I can't see how you could expect to live on your own for any length of time in a post-disaster or "rebellion" type of world if you weren't armed. Even in moderately small-scale disasters like hurrican andrew, there were hordes of looters attacking homeless families who were huddled in the rubble D of their homes. People become savages very easily, especially when they;re hungry. The caveat to owning deadly weapons is that you have a responsibility to know how to use them and maintain them, otherwise you're just fooling yourself and you could very likely do something stupid. One word of advice: Don't get junk. I know a lot of people are now spending $49.95 on an SKS and buying a tin of chinese ammo and now they feel they're good and ready. I don't think so. You get what you pay for, and it's also going to be very difficult to re-supply something that shoots foreign calibers. Even now, the import ban on Chinese ammo and firearms is already in effect, and a similar deal is rumored to be in the works that will cut off Russian supplies as well. So much for 7.62x39. Not to mention the corrosiveness and the fact that it's tough to reload steel case ammo. The bottom line is, select your caliber wisely (.308 is my favorite, with .30-06 second because of the AP availability) as well as your weapon. Remember, it may have to last you for years without any parts replacement available, and it'll have to last through mud and blood and beer with minimal amounts of maintenance. And don't forget that the maximum combat range of the Gun Gestapo infantryman is about 200 yards with the 5.56 NATO. Anything with greater range (such as .308 / .30-06) is a supreme tactical advantage. -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:01 EDT 1994 Article: 26 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 14 Sep 1994 17:38:59 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu>, Shane Patrick Ahern wrote: >Are there any true survivalists out there? Yes, welcome! I'm so glad this base got started, and that my positive vote actually had an effect. Congratulations to all of those others who helped get this base installed as well. Thank you! My first question/topic: What's the best form of shelter to purchase for use in a long-term "rebellion" type of open warfare? Is something like the U.S. Army's two-man shelter halves a good investment or should I simply be content with a good water-repellent sleeping bag which I can roll up into my pack harness? ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From basiji@u.washington.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:02 EDT 1994 Article: 27 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!basiji From: basiji@u.washington.edu (David Basiji) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 14:42:54 GMT Organization: University of Washington Lines: 34 Message-ID: <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stein2.u.washington.edu dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) writes: [munch] >These kinds of things and this group made me think: >Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >of some sort? >I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have >food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and >that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things >you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the >survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. Look, "survivalism" (as I define it) isn't some media-hyped 'look at the kooks' group of people convinced that Western Civilisation is doomed, etc. It's people who feel that modern societal conveniences have led people into complacency about their self-reliance. Let me ask you this: if there was an earthquake or other natural disaster that knocked out all electricity, transportation, water, etc. what would you do? Could you get your own food? Could you cook it? Obviously, the police would be stretched *way* too thin. What if someone wanted what you had, what would you do? How long could you keep this up (a day, a week, a month?) I think most people have considered these things in passing and concluded that they could sit tight for a day or even a week. What survivalists believe is that they shouldn't take anything for granted and be able to deal with such a situation for at least a month, possibly indefinitely. If you want food, you can grow it, hunt it, or steal it. Obviously, others will be doing the same thing. A gun is useful for defense as well as hunting and should be considered the tool that it is, just like a stove or a generator. David Basiji UW Bioengineering basiji@u.washington.edu From mdw@sitar.jazz.att.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:03 EDT 1994 Article: 28 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!gw1.att.com!nntpa!nntpb.cb.att.com!mdw From: mdw@sitar.jazz.att.com (Mark Wuest) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? In-Reply-To: rwalters@bu.edu's message of 15 Sep 1994 13:33:31 GMT Message-ID: Sender: news@nntpa.cb.att.com (Netnews Administration) Nntp-Posting-Host: laura.jazz.att.com Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Red Hill References: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 15:02:49 GMT Lines: 31 In article <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: >Henry T Robertson (htrst1+@pitt.edu) wrote: >:In article , >:Benjamin Johnson wrote: >:>James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >:>an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. >:There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves >:from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. >*****What relevance does this have to this newsgroup? IMHO, a significant number of White Supremacists are also into survivalism - but of the David Koresh/Armageddon/Nuclear Holocause variety. A significant number of survivalist folk (again, these are the folk for whom survival issues are more than a hobby or interest, like, say, backpacking) are also Right-Wing self-professed "Christians" Dunno why - most of them don't want to be anything like the Christ they take their name from. Well, actually, there seems to be a strong correlation between their members and the self-professed Christians who seem to be overly enamoured with the study of Armageddon (Armageddon It!). No mere coincedence, IMHO of course. Mark "Why would I want to survive Nuclear Holocaust?" Wuest -- Mark Wuest | The holy passion of friendship is of so sweet mdw@sitar.jazz.att.com | and steady and loyal and enduring a nature | that it will last through a whole lifetime, | if not asked to lend money. -- Pudd'nhead From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:04 EDT 1994 Article: 29 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!koriel!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Low Cost .. Low Tech Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:24:07 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 10 Message-ID: <359vvn$cse@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 And... Lets not forget tools, archery equipment and fishing gear. all are inexpensive and reusable... ...when you run out of MREs and Ammo... then? ...Likewise, when you run out of water purification chemicals and filters, you can still use distillation techniques etc. =Frank= P.S. MREs and Ammo fall more under the "Emergency Preparedness" category while blades, fishing gear, and archery are more toward prolonged Survival category. From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:05 EDT 1994 Article: 30 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!news1.oakland.edu!vtc.tacom.army.mil!ulowell!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: RACE AND RELIGION Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:10:21 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 4 Message-ID: <35a2md$e8g@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 DO NOT...REPEAT...DO *NOT* GET STARTED ON THIS *HERE* !!!!! ...TAKE YOUR DRIVEL SOMEWHERE ELSE! =Frank= From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:06 EDT 1994 Article: 31 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!wupost!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Tri-States Philosophy? Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:11:47 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35a2p3$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <358hso$481@redstone.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Matthias Drake (mdrake@mercury.interpath.net) wrote: : Does anyone know that this is? I have seen it mentioned in several : survival magazines but I don't know what it is. Can someone clue me in? This refers to the philosophy of self independence and "common sense laws" as outlined in William Johnstone's Ashes series of paperbacks. If you think of it in a left/right political view it is easily confusing. More readily under stood is a x/y axis chart with one side being economic freedom and the other being personal freedom. This is more easily understood by reading the "World Smallest Political Quiz" seen on groups such as alt.activism and others. This system would be benevolent to the elderly and infirm (but they would want to as productive as possible by choice), libertarian in financial dealings, very law abiding (but the laws would be "common sense"), very much against racism, pro-choice, pro-education, pro-ecology, and generally a peacefull place to live (because all the criminals would be run out or in the cemetery. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From locasso@tis.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:07 EDT 1994 Article: 32 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:54:17 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35a1o9$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> References: <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article hel@news.bu.edu, rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: > > I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns > the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't... This group is not limited to wilderness survival. From the charter: "The goal of misc.survivalism is the sharing of ideas about the ideals of self- preservation. It is a vast topic. Emergency preparedness, outdoor survival, military, fishing, hunting, light aircraft crew, weapons (how to make, use etc...), camping, food preservation, horticulture, alternative fuels, urban struggles, home shelters... The list is as endless is as the situtations where life and death are involved." > > P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? No. Rosaria Locasso From rodneywa@triton.unm.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:08 EDT 1994 Article: 33 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.sandia.gov!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!triton.unm.edu!rodneywa From: rodneywa@triton.unm.edu (Rodney C. Ward) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: You know you're in trouble when... Date: 15 Sep 1994 10:38:14 GMT Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: triton.unm.edu I read in a sierra club mountain conquering book, that a sign that the clouds around you are about to discharge lightning is the metal (i.e. zippers, icepicks) will begin to spark and crackle with static electricity. I also read in this book that if you are in the desert and you are lost and there is no chance of a search for you, then walk in an arbitary direction and stick with it. If you are in the desert or some arid place, water will quickly take on new meaning if you run out of it. Windmills will usually provide some type of water, but I know from experience that just cuz the cows are drinking it doesn't mean you won't get sick, extremely. Most cacti will provide moisture and relief of hunger pains, just remove the thorns with fire. They will burn off easily, including those little splinters that can't be removed by hand. Running steams are usually safe to drink from unlike stale ponds which I also know from experience can only make things worse. Though most water is safe to drink if you boil it, like heat a rock real hot and put it in your container that should kill most micros. I have used water purification tablets and I don't remember any resulting sickness. I heard juice from a lemon will also purify water. Another way to get water is to collect small stones, dig a hole, put a container at the bottom of the hole, now fill it with the stones, and by mourning dew will have collected on the stones and dripped into the container. From ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:09 EDT 1994 Article: 34 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!news1.oakland.edu!vtc.tacom.army.mil!ulowell!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!obelisk!ahern From: ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:15:21 GMT Organization: The Mockle Group Lines: 6 Message-ID: <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: obelisk.berkeley.edu Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:09 EDT 1994 Article: 35 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: PLEASE! KEEP OUR SUBJECT MATTER PURE Date: 15 Sep 1994 20:11:20 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35a9p8$g7p@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 This news group is less than one day old and folks with a political agenda are already dropping their little eggs over here. Please help in discouraging this sort of activity or this group will not have any specific personality...ALSO... There are "shills" or people who are enemies of our mindset who will try to poison this group by trying to drum up responses to ugly, hateful, or counterproductive topics. Be aware that there are those in the government and anti-gun arena that would like nothing more than to discredit us. Please admonish and discourage these individuals before they get a foothold! I hate even needing to post *THIS* message because it does not provide valuable technical info or knowledge *BUT* it does have everything to do with the *SURVIVAL* of this group as a unique and usful forum. I hope this is the very last time I will have to stray so far from the business at hand and I hope you will all support this view and discourage the dilution of our pure intent. FINALLY, I own lots of guns and stronly believe they are very relavent to this forum BUT lets try to keep our discussion to how they relate to Survival only... If the thread digresses into how to reload or fix a gun or the politics of gun control then PLEASE move the discussion to where it belongs AND if you witness this, please tell the participants to do so promptly. If you see a subject in another group which you think would interest US, please tell us about it and we will go over there to read and talk about it... I'M sure I have made myself amply clear... AGREED? *Quite* enough said!, =Frank= P.S. I encourage all to freely participate in other groups and to tell us (BRIEFLY) if we should go over there and get involved...and no more! From locasso@tis.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:10 EDT 1994 Article: 36 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!news1.oakland.edu!vtc.tacom.army.mil!ulowell!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:00:28 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35a23s$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> References: <359d76$c4c@ceylon.gte.com> Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article c4c@ceylon.gte.com, alb0@roger.gte.com (Andrew Betz) writes: > > not long, unless you use a fuel stabilizer! your stored fuel will > form shellac and all other sorts of weird compounds after a time. What is the result of using gas that contains shellac and other compounds? Is it just like "dirty" gas, that is, it works but not well, and eventually clogs the carburetor? Or will it not run an engine at all? What is shellac, anyway? Rosaria Locasso From bkives@superior.carleton.ca Fri Sep 16 13:24:11 EDT 1994 Article: 37 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!cunews!superior!bkives From: bkives@superior.carleton.ca (Bartley Kives) Subject: Survivalists in Winnipeg? Message-ID: Sender: news@cunews.carleton.ca (News Administrator) Organization: Carleton University X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 18:18:00 GMT Lines: 23 Hello. I'm looking for survivalists who live in and/or around the Winnipeg area who'd be willing to talk about their lifestyle for the purposes of a newspaper story. When I was working for the Sun in Winnipeg over the past summer, most self-professed survivalists were a bit hesitant about talking to the media. Maybe I was just hanging out in the wrong environment -- I highly doubt all (if any) of you conform to the pop-culture stereotype that portrays you as secretive folks decked out in fatigues. Talk to you soon. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Bartley Kives -- Writer, bass player, reformed nihilist. (Winnipeg & Grand Beach, Manitoba -- Ottawa, Ontario) bkives@ccs.carleton.ca From sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Fri Sep 16 13:24:12 EDT 1994 Article: 38 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!sybok From: sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 16:58:35 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 25 Message-ID: <359ufr$q81@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: m1-142-11.mit.edu In article <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) writes: >Hello, a girl from my church has these kooky relatives >(I say kooky, but in light of recent events...maybe not) >who are christian survivalists and they have guns and other >stuff stocked up. One of my friends got a Mak-90(sp?) >assault rifle with a couple of 30 shot banana clips. You must mean a so-called "assault rifle". Real assault rifles are select fire (machine guns), and hard to get. The Mak-90 is a semi-auto. >Having the Mak-90 with the clips really won't do him much >good, though.He only has about 20 bullets for it. Bullets? You mean rounds (bullet+casing+powder+primer)? He made a good choice, since the gun and mags have been banned but he can still get more ammo (at least for now). >These kinds of things and this group made me think: >Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >of some sort? I hope so. I came here from the gun group. I figure, I'll need something to eat and drink when I go out "hunting" each day. :-) From alb0@roger.gte.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:13 EDT 1994 Article: 39 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!ceylon!roger.gte.com!alb0 From: alb0@roger.gte.com (Andrew Betz) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 12:03:50 GMT Organization: Idaho City University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <359d76$c4c@ceylon.gte.com> References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: roger.gte.com In article <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net>, >does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? not long, unless you use a fuel stabilizer! your stored fuel will form shellac and all other sorts of weird compounds after a time. properly stabilized fuel is good for at least a year, probably longer. i say a year because i stabilized some and used it a year later with no problems whatsoever. like most stored items, its probably better to rotate stock periodically. drew -- alb0@gte.com "The new Gestapo in America." -- Gerry Spence on the BATF From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Fri Sep 16 13:24:14 EDT 1994 Article: 40 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best Periodicals and Books? Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:38:45 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 37 Message-ID: <35a0r5$e50@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article 25J@netcom.com, vtan@netcom.com (Victor Tan) writes: >What are the best periodicals and books out there on survivalism? > >I've only seen 1 magazine but it was thin. > >Admittedly, there are different kinds of survivalism, > >Urban - major city, suburbs, etc >Wilderness - Desert, Mountainous, Wooded, Prarie etc >Situational - Earthquake, Hurricane, Injuries, Riots, Lost, War, > Bad weather, etc > >Anyone care to comment on what books or rags to recommend and what >categories they then to aim at? Perhaps not surprisingly, you can find lots of interesting books on survival in health food type stores, or some alternate religion type stores. Don't be offended by my choice of words, but hanging out in what I can best describe as "hippy stores", or young peoples stores, can find you lots of interesting things. For example locally there is a comic store that carrys lots of Loompanics books. Tower Books also carrys a few, as well as lots of books on herbalism, camping, guns, electronic countermeasures, etc. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From alb0@roger.gte.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:15 EDT 1994 Article: 41 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!ceylon!roger.gte.com!alb0 From: alb0@roger.gte.com (Andrew Betz) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: FBI (THIS IS *NOT* TALK.POLITICS.GUNS!!!) Date: 15 Sep 1994 20:05:35 GMT Organization: Idaho City University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <35a9ef$i4m@ceylon.gte.com> References: <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: roger.gte.com In article <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com>, > THIS IS AN INFORMATIONAL GROUP and should not contain political topics >unless they apply DIRECTLY to this group! A political topic that WOULD >P.S. I am totally sympathetic and interested in your opinions and point >of view... I just don't want to have to wade through a bunch of crap to >find valuable technical info regarding preparedness...thanks, really! good points. however, fbi-bashing should go to alt.politics.org.fbi instead of t.p.g. drew -- alb0@gte.com "The new Gestapo in America." -- Gerry Spence on the BATF From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Fri Sep 16 13:24:16 EDT 1994 Article: 42 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: [ADVERT.] hammocks, ponchos, books, etc. for sale. Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:43:03 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 32 Message-ID: <35a137$e50@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com Last year I formed a small business to allow me to share my ideas about survivalism and outdoor living with people. I only sell thins which I use, or books which I've found worthwhile, and my catalog is rather small right now. I sell items which I consider to be multi-purpose items, including the following: compact, lightweight, hammocks. military ponchos & liners Space blankets (and Space bags) knives, fire-starters, signalling devices, books on survival, firearmms, etc. (I'm a Palladin dealer). If you're interested in these things send me email and I'll mail you a catalog. In the meantime I'll try to start posting some things of general interest. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:17 EDT 1994 Article: 43 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:39:33 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 44 Message-ID: <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Ronald Walters (rwalters@bu.edu) wrote: : I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns : the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't : seen any posts on the subject *sigh* Maybe I'll have to : post some files on the subject to straighten things out. Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. I think we do ourselve a disservice when we say "this is real survivalism" or "that is real survivalism. It's all survivalism. We may have our favorite areas to study but none are better than others. If you fly planes frequently you need air crew survival, if you boat you need water survival, if you go in the woods you need woodland survival, if you live in the city you need urban survival. BUT at some point you may need some or all of the others. : P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? I hope not. I have seen other groups die because a moderator became a control freak. What would happen if a moderator gained control who was a stereotypical "survivalist" and didn't believe that "woodlands" survival was "true"? I for one though am looking forward to your postings concerning outdoor or woodlands survival. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:21 EDT 1994 Article: 44 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:45:40 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <35a4ok$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] J Moschell (72714.3044@CompuServe.COM) wrote: : Some may wonder what survivalism is all about... : Here is a sample of what you need to get started on... : (This list is VERY, VERY, VERY incomplete) Excellent list!! Good work! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody@csua.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:22 EDT 1994 Article: 45 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU!remailer From: Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: The Gun Ban Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:06:54 GMT Organization: none Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.csua.berkeley.edu Errors-To: nobody@soda.berkeley.edu Originator: remailer@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU Actually, this post is just a request for information, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the impending gun ban. Does anyone know where the blueprints for various firearms are available? The patent has expired on many of the most useful guns, such as the Colt 1911, the AK-47, the Galil, etc, so this information probably isn't secret. Companies like Wilsen's must have gotten access to the 1911 blueprints so they can make accessories for it, right? How did they get it? Or would a person have to get out calipers and do his own blueprint? Thanks I stole a MAK. I also found an 80-round drum magazine from China and a night scope. My friend knows about a really good gunsmith with all the tools we need to make it fully automatic. -------- For more information about this anonymous posting service,please send mail to remailer@csua.berkeley.edu with Subject: remailer-info. -------- From honig@ics.uci.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:23 EDT 1994 Article: 46 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!not-for-mail From: honig@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 12:52:52 -0700 Organization: UC Disneyland, in the Kingdom of Bren Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35a8mk$ifh@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> Reply-To: honig@ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) NNTP-Posting-Host: buckaroo.ics.uci.edu bhampton@golden.ncw.net (Brad Hampton) writes: >does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? >x=1-5 > 5-20 > 20-50 > 50-+ >is ther a rule of thum ie. for every gal. of stored fuel add 3 months? > I didn't know it expired. Is it oxygen-induced? If so, topping off your resivoir with CO2 or N2 would help. dh -- David A. Honig, informivore In a world of compromise, some don't. ---Heckler & Koch "Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?" - C. D. Tavares From gannon@sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:24 EDT 1994 Article: 47 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu!nntp.ucsb.edu!sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu!gannon From: gannon@sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu (Mark Andrew Gannon) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: FBI Date: 15 Sep 94 20:37:11 GMT Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara Lines: 61 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <35a435$11l@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes: >Are the FBI, the National Guard, the military or other government agencies >preparing tatical plans to combat citizens who resist or rebel against >the government? Are they investigating groups? It seems like the Waco >incident indicates that the government is investigating and infiltrating >groups that leagally stockpile weapons. Good observation. Actually, the US Gov't has a long, sordid history of crushing any group that has anything but a strongly pro-US-Gov't position, as soon as such a group starts to become effective or popular. The FBI's COINTELPRO (CounterIntelligence Program) is one of the most hideous examples. I recommend the small paperback book _War at Home_, which gives some interesting history and details of COINTELPRO. The Government moved swiftly and with extreme force to crush the Black Panther Party for Self Defense in the 1960s and early 70s. This is not so surprising- the Panthers were patrolling Oakland with shotguns and lawbooks, protecting the people from police abuse. What is a bit surprising is the amount of force (and money) that is being used against Food Not Bombs, a group which is not stockpiling weapons or chanting "Off the Pigs!" in the streets, but which seeks only to feed the homeless. >In a rebellion situation, which branch of the armed forces would be called >upon to supress it? Is it ever concievable that the military could divide >into opposing factions during a rebellion, or is the chain of command so >strong that orders from the Commander in Cheif would never be disobeyed? >I heard a reference on the radio to a study, Presidential Directive 13 or >somthing like that, on the willingness of new military recruits to >combat U.S. citizens if necessary, and that a high percentage of them >said they would. Scary, but not a bit surprising. Our indoctrination system (ie the schools) is really effective. And once you hit the military, you get the same thing, but it's violently pounded into your head 24-7. I'd be surprised if more than a handful would say they were unwilling to combat US citizens. After all, the gov't would just make up a label for whatever group of citizens was rebelling: "communists," "anarchists," "terrorists," or, like at Waco, "child abusers." Then the folks in the army would see themselves as helping protect all the rest of the people of the US against these "dangerous subversives." --Mark aka John Brown :-b ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Huey P. Newton, Minister of Defense of the Black Panther Party, the baddest motherfucker ever to set foot in history. Huey P. Newton, the brother, black man, a nigger, the descendant of slaves, who stood up in the heart of the ghetto, at night, in alleys, confronted by racist pigs with guns and said: "My name is Huey P. Newton. I'm the Minister of Defense of the Black Panther Party. I'm standing on my constitutional rights. I'm not going to allow you to brutalize me. I'm going to stop you from brutalizing my people. You got your gun, pig, I got mine. If you shoot at me, I'm shooting back." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "NEVER do second order perturbation theory." --Toby Falk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mcalvert@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA Fri Sep 16 13:24:25 EDT 1994 Article: 48 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!spartan.ac.BrockU.CA!mcalvert From: mcalvert@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Murray Brain Calvert) Subject: Reinforced Concrete Specifications? Message-ID: <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9] Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 19:08:39 GMT Lines: 10 I am planning to build an earth-sheltered house in the country (None of your business where!). I would like the structure to withstand a major earthquake or atomic blast from 10 miles away. I estimate that the load could be 2000 pounds per square foot. Has anyone out there built a reinforced concrete structure that could advise me on references for structural engineering? Also I can't find much about design life, i.e. how long before the rebar rusts. Brian From mark@newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM Fri Sep 16 13:24:26 EDT 1994 Article: 49 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!psinntp!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM!newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM!not-for-mail From: mark@newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM (KP) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 15 Sep 1994 15:19:31 -0400 Organization: Eastman Kodak Company Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35a6o3$4bl@newkodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newkodak.rdcs.kodak.com In article <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: >I heard you got a Sten. My friends and me picked up a Mini-14. I got >it with a night scope and a night scope. It's cool. I heard about a >gunsmith with all the tools we need to make it fully automatic. One MUST remember that a fully automatic wepon without the proper FFL is just cause for a visit somewhere where the only survival tools are hard protective covers for your rectum! You were discussing communications security, but where do you think that various government agencies will be looking for information about people and ideas? It will be HERE and in rec.guns. It might be a good idea to go a little lighter on obvious criminal ideas that might be associated with a name and internet address! In a lot of states night vision technology MOUNTED on a rifle is also a no-no. I do not know the laws of your state. I keep a hand held infrared viewer with a good lense installed for night use, and for my rifle, Rem 700vs .380 I put on a 56mm low light scope. I have found that using the viewer to look through the scope works and that you can see over the sights of a handgun just fine with it at night. I have never fired when using the viewer, but I was interested in trying it in as many ways as possible. From algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:26 EDT 1994 Article: 50 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!att-out!oucsace!ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu!ALGEO From: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (the virtual valkyrie) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Sender: news@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (news account) Reply-To: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Organization: Ohio University Computing & Technology Services References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> ,<35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 20:55:28 GMT Lines: 18 In article <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes: >Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications >in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as >constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? I for one am not counting on Usenet or the Internet to survive a major disaster such as a nuclear holocaust. Even a local disaster such as a major flood would probably destroy my personal net.access. Good ol' radios might be our best best for reestablishing communications. What say the rest of you? -- Melissa Algeo algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu algeo@monolith.mit.edu From london@.unc.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:27 EDT 1994 Article: 51 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!!london From: london@.unc.edu (Larry London) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: PLEASE! KEEP OUR SUBJECT MATTER PURE Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:44:45 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 32 Message-ID: <35aiot$1366@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> References: <35a9p8$g7p@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: calzone.oit.unc.edu In article <35a9p8$g7p@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank Langham wrote: >=Frank= >P.S. I encourage all to freely participate in other groups and to tell >us (BRIEFLY) if we should go over there and get involved...and no more! See: alt.sustainable.agriculture alt.agriculture.misc alt.agriculture.fruit bionet.plants rec.gardens misc.rural alt.energy.renewable alt.folklore.herbs alt.architecture.alternative alt.housing.nontrad - london@sunSITE [I archive all posts (except the dreaded political, racist, off-topic ones) in this misc.survivalism at sunSITE.unc.edu.] Anonymous FTP info: ftp sunSITE.unc.edu cd pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture cd discussion-groups/newsgroups/misc.survivalism see also: misc.survivalism-protofaq [under construction] and: pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/energy-resources pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare From abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:28 EDT 1994 Article: 52 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!abrez From: abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:05:03 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL Lines: 18 Message-ID: <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu In article <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank Langham wrote: > >...Comments/Additions? >=Frank= I would add Radio Receiver (ham or cb or both). Obviously, lotsa batteries for the above. Aaron Brezenski "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me." Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati "If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion." "... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" From dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:28 EDT 1994 Article: 53 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!crcnis1.unl.edu!s-cwis.unomaha.edu!s-cwis.unomaha.edu!dstephen From: dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 07:03:56 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska Omaha Lines: 25 Message-ID: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: @s-cwis.unomaha.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Hello, a girl from my church has these kooky relatives (I say kooky, but in light of recent events...maybe not) who are christian survivalists and they have guns and other stuff stocked up. One of my friends got a Mak-90(sp?) assault rifle with a couple of 30 shot banana clips. Having the Mak-90 with the clips really won't do him much good, though.He only has about 20 bullets for it. These kinds of things and this group made me think: Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons of some sort? I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. Dave -- dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu From lovecraf@infinet.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:29 EDT 1994 Article: 54 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!lovecraf From: lovecraf@infinet.com (Ed Michalski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 15:59:57 GMT Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410) Lines: 17 Message-ID: <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com> References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> <359d76$c4c@ceylon.gte.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Andrew Betz (alb0@roger.gte.com) wrote: : In article <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net>, : >does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? There are certain gas additives which can prolong the life of stored gasoline far greater than our lifetimes. -- Ed / Home is where you hang your hat. / I feel so broke up, I want to go home. /_____ ovecraft@infinet.com From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Fri Sep 16 13:24:30 EDT 1994 Article: 55 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:29:50 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 8 Message-ID: <35ahsu$8sa$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> References: <35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu> Try Lehman's Catalog for a start on 1800's living. Phone number is 216-857-5757 -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns have. From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:31 EDT 1994 Article: 56 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: CASE MREs (SPECIFICATION AND MFG DATE?) Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:13:31 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 4 Message-ID: <359vbr$cse@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 If you are selling MREs etc. on this group, please include specifications and date of manufacture. THNX =Frank= From wb9omc@constellation.ecn.purdue.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:31 EDT 1994 Article: 57 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!mozo.cc.purdue.edu!constellation.ecn.purdue.edu!wb9omc From: wb9omc@constellation.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:20:17 GMT Organization: Purdue University Lines: 109 Message-ID: <359voh$ij8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: constellation.ecn.purdue.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) basiji@u.washington.edu (David Basiji) writes: >dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) writes: >[munch] >>These kinds of things and this group made me think: >>Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >>of some sort? >>I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have >>food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and >>that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things >>you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the >>survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. >Look, "survivalism" (as I define it) isn't some media-hyped >'look at the kooks' group of people convinced that Western Civilisation >is doomed, etc. It's people who feel that modern societal conveniences >have led people into complacency about their self-reliance. Let me ask I don't think you could have said it much better. Look what happened earlier this week when a simple wiring failure paralyzed the air traffic system that so many "take-for-granteds" have come to rely on. When shit happens that exposes the "scumgene" in some people, it would be nice not to be killed or get the snot beat out of you. Ask Reginald Denny what HE thought of the LA riots. You cannot rely on the understaffed "police" to be able to save you - if you want to SURVIVE, you need to be prepared for it, and in some of these cases that means, YES, being armed sufficiently to survive. >you this: if there was an earthquake or other natural disaster that >knocked out all electricity, transportation, water, etc. what would you >do? Could you get your own food? Could you cook it? Obviously, the police >would be stretched *way* too thin. What if someone wanted what you had, >what would you do? How long could you keep this up (a day, a week, a month?) >I think most people have considered these things in passing and concluded >that they could sit tight for a day or even a week. What survivalists >believe is that they shouldn't take anything for granted and be able to >deal with such a situation for at least a month, possibly indefinitely. >If you want food, you can grow it, hunt it, or steal it. Obviously, >others will be doing the same thing. A gun is useful for defense as >well as hunting and should be considered the tool that it is, just like >a stove or a generator. And as somebody else pointed out, select your weapon for reliability, and your ammo for availability (and something you can stock fairly inexpensively - make the most of the resources you've got). As one interesting example, there is the Ruger 10/22. A lot of people will tell you that they are cheap and they suck, not being especially accurate. But everyone *I* know that owns one tells me that while this is true to a certain extent, it is simple to maintain (e.g., not a complex rifle) and shoots .22LR which has got to be one of the most common pieces of ammo around. Geez, you can buy the stuff by the gob at *Kmart*. Now..... .22LR isn't the greatest thing in the world for self-defense. You can shoot somebody and they will keep going unless either your aim is REAL good or you get a lucky vital hit. BUT, if your goal is survival you are likely to be spending more of your time looking for food than shooting other people. Likely a lot of the food you might be hunting for will be small game (rabbits, etc.) that a large caliber rifle (or pistol) will simply turn into so much red and pink spray. There are other .22's that fall into this category - inexpensive, easy to keep up, reasonably reliable and cheap to stock ammo for. To go for small game for food, the .22 is a good bet. You don't need to turn it into the "assault gun from hell" for this purpose. Gonna hunt bigger critters like deer? .30-06 is a good choice, and aside from the hunting applications, can be an effective man-stopper at long range if need be. Also not hard to find ammo, either. Don't want to make a big BANG and draw attention to the deer you're bringing down? Proficiency with a compound bow will take care of THAT problem. While you may have to chase your deer before it drops, at least everyone within Xity number of square miles won't know that you're about to eat, when maybe they aren't. (and I dare say that popping an arrow into a tree near someones head will DEFINITELY get their attention.....) My gut feeling is that most of the time any confrontation with another human being is likely to be at a *close* range. Using a .30-06 inside of 100 yards seems like a waste, to *me*. For close in defense there is nothing like a well-built, reliable handgun for speed of draw, ease of use and carry. Some might suggest a short-barrelled 12 gauge shotgun.....well, it'll stop somebody but can be physically unwieldy in certain situations. I think I'd rather have the 12 gauge as an adjunct hunting tool, myself, although not ruling out its use for defense. A lot of folks will tell you that there is nothing like the .357 magnum for raw take-down power. Recently, 9mm has been gaining in popularity as well. Now having said all of the above. I'm not a nut with the entire US arsernal in my home, waiting to overthrow the government. Nor do I have a desire to kill *anybody*. But I *don't* feel like sitting on my ass waiting for somebody to do it to ME. IF and WHEN a major disaster of some type occurs, properly prepared *citizens* ought to be ready to serve as law and order - because if the magnitude of the disaster is great enough, "government" will simply be a sad artifact of life BEFORE...... Duane From yooho@ursula.ic.cmc.ca Fri Sep 16 13:24:32 EDT 1994 Article: 58 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!msuinfo!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.ccs.queensu.ca!venus!ursula!yooho From: yooho@ursula.ic.cmc.ca (Yoo Ho Cho) Subject: Re: talk about this? Message-ID: <1994Sep15.143935.5358@venus.cmc.ca> Sender: usenet@venus.cmc.ca (News Administrator) Nntp-Posting-Host: ursula Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 14:39:35 GMT Lines: 24 In article <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> bhampton@golden.ncw.net (Brad Hampton) writes: [ stuff deleted ] > >does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? >x=1-5 > 5-20 > 20-50 > 50-+ >is ther a rule of thum ie. for every gal. of stored fuel add 3 months? > > >-- >-------------------- >bhampton@ncw.net This really depends on the use for the fuel. For an outboard, I've been told to use a stabilizer to prevent gumming if I have any gas left over until next boating season. Never have and the diminished performance of the outboard I've always atributed to a higher oil/gas ratio caused by the gas evaporating. But no idea on how long it will "keep". YHC From vtan@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:33 EDT 1994 Article: 59 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!vtan From: vtan@netcom.com (Victor Tan) Subject: Best Periodicals and Books? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 15:47:49 GMT Lines: 15 What are the best periodicals and books out there on survivalism? I've only seen 1 magazine but it was thin. Admittedly, there are different kinds of survivalism, Urban - major city, suburbs, etc Wilderness - Desert, Mountainous, Wooded, Prarie etc Situational - Earthquake, Hurricane, Injuries, Riots, Lost, War, Bad weather, etc Anyone care to comment on what books or rags to recommend and what categories they then to aim at? - Victor Tan From velkey@selway.umt.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:34 EDT 1994 Article: 60 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!selway.umt.edu!not-for-mail From: velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Date: 15 Sep 1994 09:26:35 -0600 Organization: University of Montana, Missoula Lines: 44 Message-ID: <359p3b$hg1@selway.umt.edu> References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu In article <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu>, Rodney C. Ward wrote: [stuff deleted] >Though most water is safe to drink if you boil it, like heat a rock >real hot and put it in your container that should kill most micros. You have to boil water for a min. of 5 mins. to make sure all micros are dead. >I have used water purification tablets and I don't remember any resulting >sickness. These work only against bio-agents. Hazardous chemicals (pesticides, heavy metals, toxic waste) can only be removed by filtering (unless you can assay the sample and figure out which chemicals you need to neutralize that stuff). >I heard juice from a lemon will also purify water. NOT TRUE. The citric acid in lemons, limes, etc. will NEUTRALIZE iodine, eliminating that "Metallic" taste. I keep a vial with iodine tabs in one end and vitamin c tabs in the other in my "Oh, Shit!" kit. Another >way to get water is to collect small stones, dig a hole, put a container >at the bottom of the hole, now fill it with the stones, and by mourning >dew will have collected on the stones and dripped into the container. I think you are after the solar still idea here. You dig a hole several times greater in diameter than your container (#10 cans are great, but you can use anything, pie plate, air cleaner lid, hubcap, you get the picture). You place your container at the bottom of the hole and, if available, put a piece of tubing down in the bottom. Then, lay a sheet of plastic, nylon, car headliner, whatever over the hole. Weight the edges of the sheet in place and place a stone in the center. Water will condense and drip down into the container. In a long-term survival situation, I would boil this water and/or filter it just to be safe. In an emergency, it should be potable. Andrew J. Velkey Dept of Psychology, Univ of MT Grad Student, etc. From velkey@selway.umt.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:35 EDT 1994 Article: 61 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!selway.umt.edu!not-for-mail From: velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Date: 15 Sep 1994 09:34:41 -0600 Organization: University of Montana, Missoula Lines: 40 Message-ID: <359pih$ivc@selway.umt.edu> References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu In article <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank Langham wrote: >IMHO, > > Survival Equals = : > > * Water > > * Food > > * Security (=guns & concealment & non-provocative attitude) > > * Shelter > >... In that order... Comments? > I would say that a gun need not necessarily be of a concealable type to be useful. A rifle will serve this purpose much better. A handgun (the type of gun usually concealed) is **relatively** ineffective in a survival situation. You can't protect yourself against very large threats (Bears, Moose, etc.) and, unless you're Wyatt Earp or something, you are not going to have very successful hunting. A .22 LR will bring down a ton of varmint for eating, clothing, etc, the ammo is lightweight, and is relatively inexpensive (you can stockpile alot of it). A shotgun would be equally useful here. Note that you are going to be unable to protect yourself against the aforementioned threats without a high-powered rifle. Please note that this is a general statement. I certainly do not intend to start a trite little thread of anecdotes about people shooting bears in the eyes at 100yds with their S&W .38 spl. I am trying to convey what I feel is the superiority of rifles/shotguns over handguns in a survival situation. A handgun would be better than no gun, but there are better options. Andrew J. Velkey Dept of Psychology, Univ. of MT Grad Student, etc. From honig@ics.uci.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:36 EDT 1994 Article: 62 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!not-for-mail From: honig@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: comments: what's needed, and when Date: 15 Sep 1994 10:33:22 -0700 Organization: UC Disneyland, in the Kingdom of Bren Lines: 20 Message-ID: <35a0h2$hlr@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> References: <3585rv$826@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> <358f8t$jb4$2@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> Reply-To: honig@ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) NNTP-Posting-Host: buckaroo.ics.uci.edu J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> writes: >I use the "Storm Theory". Prepare for a *BIG* storm, say a Out here, the "storm"-analogues are riots and quakes. In both cases you have no police. In both cases you have armed motorized gangs, potentially from other countries even. In the midwest, you have floods and twisters. Also stray hurricanes. Finally, I would add to someone's previous list of necessities, a small 9v radio and flashlight. dh -- David A. Honig, informivore In a world of compromise, some don't. ---Heckler & Koch "Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?" - C. D. Tavares From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:36 EDT 1994 Article: 63 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> <359voh$ij8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 21:11:05 GMT Lines: 16 I like Duane Mantick and David Basiji's attitudes, and I agree about the .22 ...after feeding $16+ into my glock at the range time after time I grew to miss buying .22 cartridges in those terrific little "milk carton" containers by the 500 count for $6 or so! Duane (and others) do you have any experience with the .30-.30? Is lever action reliable? It seemed to me like a good compromise between rabbit caliber and man-stopper, and the rifles I have seen are generally shorter in overall length--more easily handled in close quarters. What are your opinions, if any? Regards Robert Holder Denver, Colorado From petro@artn.iit.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:37 EDT 1994 Article: 64 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!iitmax!artn!petro From: petro@artn.iit.edu (Christopher Petro) Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Message-ID: <1994Sep15.224209.2894@iitmax.iit.edu> Sender: news@iitmax.iit.edu (News) Organization: (Art)^n Laboratory X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 22:42:09 GMT Lines: 22 Thomas Woolman (woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu) wrote: : The caveat to owning deadly weapons is that you have a responsibility to : know how to use them and maintain them, otherwise you're just fooling : yourself and you could very likely do something stupid. The other thing to remember, is that you have to be prepared mentally to kill somebody. YOU HAVE TO BE READY TO SHOOT. : select your caliber wisely (.308 is my favorite, with .30-06 second because : of the AP availability) as well as your weapon. Remember, it may have to : last you for years without any parts replacement available, and it'll have : to last through mud and blood and beer with minimal amounts of maintenance. : And don't forget that the maximum combat range of the Gun Gestapo infantryman : is about 200 yards with the 5.56 NATO. Anything with greater range (such as : .308 / .30-06) is a supreme tactical advantage. Uh.. I really ain't sure who the "Gun Gestapo" are, but the U.S. Marines practice out to 500 meters with the M-16. Also, remember as long as the cops have guns, you can get one when you need one. From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:38 EDT 1994 Article: 65 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:23:34 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 31 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35ae0m$sb2@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <359d76$c4c@ceylon.gte.com> <35a23s$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Rosaria Locasso (locasso@tis.com) wrote: : What is the result of using gas that contains shellac and other compounds? : Is it just like "dirty" gas, that is, it works but not well, and eventually : clogs the carburetor? Or will it not run an engine at all? What is shellac, : anyway? While the formation of varnish is a problem some is tolerable with frequent cleaning of the carburetor in a fuel injected engine this would be a big problem. (I know why would you pick a fuel injected car for this situation? Well, cars with carbs are getting fewer and fewer since car company can improve their CAFE [corporate average fuel efficiency] easily with injection. Plus what if you had to "pick one up after you ariginal was destroyed?) Another problem is that agents blended into gasoline (butane and etheline I think) out gas from the mixture in a year or two. These compounds make better horse power, increase octane. In addition the percentage increased in the winter to help cars start better. Alway buy storage gas in the winter for this reason. Long term storage of diesel has another problem. Some bacteria are partial to the the parrafins blended in diesel and beak them down. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Fri Sep 16 13:24:39 EDT 1994 Article: 66 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is meant by Light Aircraft Crew Date: 15 Sep 1994 12:08 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: <15SEP199412083547@pavo.concordia.ca> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo5.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article , seanm@core.rose.hp.com (Sean Miller) writes... >In the description for misc.survivalism "light aircraft crew" was mentioned. >Does this mean maintaining a personal ultralight type aircraft for transporta- >tion during some kind of disaster? Well, I guess it _could_ mean that - but it was not the original intent. Light airfraft (both commercial and recreational) frequent areas which aren't all that populated. Some crew on these flights were interested in topics related to crashes in remote areas. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Fri Sep 16 13:24:40 EDT 1994 Article: 67 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Freqently Asked Questions, the misc.survivalism FAQ Date: 15 Sep 1994 12:12 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 67 Distribution: world Message-ID: <15SEP199412122964@pavo.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo5.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 Welcome to the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for misc.survivalism! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ More than just a list of questions and answers, FAQ's are short introductions to the community that subscribe to the newsgroup. In misc.survivalism, we discuss survival theory. If there was one line we could lift out of our charter to sum up the group it would be, "The prevailing philosophy of misc.survivalism is that I and the ones I love want to remain alive no matter what." Q) What can we talk about on misc.survivalism? A) Anything to do with survival theory, including emergency prepardness. Need plans for a shelter? Ask. Fly an aircraft and want to know what to what to pack "just in case"? Ask. Hate firearms and want to spout off? _Don't_ ask - see next question. Q) What _don't_ you talk about in misc.survivalism? A) There are two main categories of posting _not_ appreciated on m.s. There is no moderator on this group - we like it that way. Post things in these two categories and you will get lots of hate mail... 1) Personal objections to theory which do not include survivalist/ emergency prepardness material. For example, if one person describes his technique for food hoarding - and you think it immoral - write to him or her in email. Don't put it on the group. Same thing about firearms, we're not pro- or anti-gun as a group. Individual members who wish to talk about that topic can go to talk.politics.guns. If someone posts something about survivalist therory which you believe is _technically_ wrong (like description of an edible plant for example) then go ahead and discuss that. 2) Postings which have nothing to do with our group. Don't spam us with ads for skin cream, lottery tickets, x-rated videos etc... Keep on topic, flames belong in alt.flame or through email. Q) Who's reading this group? A) There were over 400 people who voted for this group's creation. When I was starting this up, I met many of them through email. They come from as far away as Germany and Australia and from all walks of life. They are weekend campers, Boy Scout leaders, officers and enlisted men from armies all around the globe, or just people concerned with their safety. Something that surprised me (that really shouldn't have) is the number of women who mailed me during the groups proposal. Q) I have a question not covered by this FAQ. A) I'm sure there are lots. This FAQ is still in its infancy. So for now, follow the above rules and you'll be fine. Questions I see repeated often will be added here. Q) Who are you? A) I am the proposer of misc.survivalism. For now I also do the FAQ, this might change if someone else wants the job... You can contact me by email at . ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From andrea@u.washington.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:41 EDT 1994 Article: 68 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!bambam.u.washington.edu!apowell From: apowell@bambam.u.washington.edu (Andrea Powell) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Test ... ignore me Date: 15 Sep 1994 16:11:47 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Tacoma Lines: 1 Distribution: world Message-ID: <359ro3$d65@news.u.washington.edu> Reply-To: andrea@u.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: bambam.u.washington.edu From ms018c@uhura.cc.rochester.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:41 EDT 1994 Article: 69 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!ms018c From: ms018c@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Stumpy McNoleg) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: <1994Sep15.223729.19140@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: uhura.cc.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 22:37:29 GMT Lines: 11 In <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: >Anyone concerned about this _must_ educate himself about the use of >networks, encryption, and anonymity. A good first step is getting PGP >(available from ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks), installing it, and >making it a habit to use it. Another place to get info is >gopher://chaos.bsu.edu. What is PGP, and what does it do? Matt From ms018c@uhura.cc.rochester.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:42 EDT 1994 Article: 70 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!ms018c From: ms018c@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Stumpy McNoleg) Subject: FAQ? Message-ID: <1994Sep15.223829.19247@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: uhura.cc.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 22:38:29 GMT Lines: 8 Hi all... I was very excited to see this group, I hope it begins to grow... Dare i ask for a FAQ? Matt From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:43 EDT 1994 Article: 71 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists in Winnipeg? Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:38:57 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <35aeth$sb2@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Bartley Kives (bkives@superior.carleton.ca) wrote: : Hello. I'm looking for survivalists who live in and/or around the Winnipeg : area who'd be willing to talk about their lifestyle for the purposes of a : newspaper story. Good luck. Most I have known who fell for the newspaper writers "let me tell your side of the story" ended up getting to look like a fool. : When I was working for the Sun in Winnipeg over the past summer, most : self-professed survivalists were a bit hesitant about talking to the : media. With good reason. What is going to sell newspapers, an article with a photograph of someone dressed in mis-matched (to the terrain and each other) fatigues with an AR-15 or a bunch of people in coveralls in the kitchen filling a bunch of Mason jars with vegetables? Why is it when mainstream writers want to do a piece on survival they always want to talk about how many firearms you have, how big are they, want to phograph them? Heck, and they call us "gun nuts"? : Maybe I was just hanging out in the wrong environment -- I highly doubt : all (if any) of you conform to the pop-culture stereotype that portrays : you as secretive folks decked out in fatigues. Cautious not secretive and no I don't have cammies. I guess "he will be known by his deeds" applies here. : Talk to you soon. I hope so, depend what you write. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From eapu259@taurus.oac.uci.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:44 EDT 1994 Article: 72 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!news.service.uci.edu!taurus.oac.uci.edu!eapu259 From: eapu259@taurus.oac.uci.edu (Devin Murphy) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Various Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:22:19 GMT Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 25 Message-ID: <35adub$1e2@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: taurus.oac.uci.edu With regards to keeping the net active after a large catastrophe, I think everyone is overestimating the value of the net in general. Consider -- a radio is smaller than any computer, even a laptop, and is faster to use for information services which IMMEDIATELY affect your area. For example, if California had an major earthquake and LA fell into the ocean, are you honestly going to log on to post to this newsgroup indicating the value of various emergency procedures? In any other nationwide instance, anything that would destroy the internet, NSF backbone, or telephone service would probably invalidate the large piece of plastic and metal which was sitting on your desk. Also, assuming I had to leave my home in a hurry, the very last item I would pack would be a computer -- it'd go in after I stuffed in a collection of overdue library books or something. On another subject--and I'm not presenting any political agenda--the ATF's attention was drawn to Waco because a UPS box broke open an exposed an M-16 (I think). After this, the ATF checked all incoming UPS deliveries and found the following: a dozen grenades, an M-79 grenade launcher, 90 pounds of powered aluminum (see: thermite), and dozens of more ordinary firearms. Just a fevered post == Devin Murphy From bw004b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:45 EDT 1994 Article: 73 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!bw004b From: bw004b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (bucket O brains) Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Message-ID: <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: uhura.cc.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 23:08:55 GMT Lines: 7 I personaly like the M-16. What more could you ask for? I mean apart from the necesity of keeping it very clean. It's light, very accurate, more powerfull than you will ever need, and has excelent range. I can't see needing more than 550m of pin point accuracy, and 800m of area target accuracy. As for the ammo, 5.56 should not be that hard to find after a revolution because of vast amount that the goverment has sould not be hard to get a hold of. O well it's too bad I can't get one for my self. Pitty From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:46 EDT 1994 Article: 74 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: CONCEALMENT Date: 15 Sep 1994 16:24:21 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 13 Message-ID: <359sfl$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 When I said "concealment" I meant that to be secure, you should not advertize your presence to others who might prey upon you for the critical commodities which you possess... i.e. If you live on a ranch, you might move out of the main house in favor of a well hidden shelter elsewhere on the property. Then, if the boogey man has been watching observing your abode from afar and decides that he and his partners should raid it in the wee hours, he will find an empty shell. If they decide to move in, then you can decide how to deal with the intrusion on your own terms. I did not mean "concealed weapon" and I agree with any comments which support all manner of special purpose weapons. .22LR thru .50BMG !!! =Frank= From ewing@u.washington.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:47 EDT 1994 Article: 75 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!ewing From: ewing@u.washington.edu (Andrew W Ewing) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Reinforced Concrete Specifications? Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:16:25 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 35 Message-ID: <35ao4p$p41@news.u.washington.edu> References: <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.brocku.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu In article <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.brocku.ca>, Murray Brain Calvert wrote: >I am planning to build an earth-sheltered house in the country (None of >your business where!). I would like the structure to withstand a major >earthquake or atomic blast from 10 miles away. I estimate that the load >could be 2000 pounds per square foot. Has anyone out there built a >reinforced concrete structure that could advise me on references for >structural engineering? Also I can't find much about design life, i.e. >how long before the rebar rusts. > >Brian > There are numerous books on R/C buildings and foundations. Check out an Engineering Library. Try underground structures. As for the rebar life, there are many things out there that will help protect the rebar in the concrete. These range from asphaltic applications to the exterior of the concrete to admixtures which can be added to the concrete which will reduce water infiltration. One vary simple thing is to keep excess moisture away from the structure. Depending on the soil type, I would reccomend placing drains and backfilling your structure with gravel and sand. There is a group for civil engineering. I haven't subscribed to it for a while but I do remember people asking questions like yours and getting helpful responses. Hope this is helpful. Andy Ewing ewing@ce.washington.edu From bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:47 EDT 1994 Article: 76 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!cronkite.ocis.temple.edu!uniblab.ocis.temple.edu!bismarck From: bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu (Aaron Dial) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: q Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:50:21 GMT Organization: Temple University, Academic Computer Services Lines: 9 Message-ID: <35afit$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: uniblab.ocis.temple.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] -- ******************************************************** *** *** *** AARON DIAL is bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu *** *** *** ******************************************************** From bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:48 EDT 1994 Article: 77 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!cronkite.ocis.temple.edu!uniblab.ocis.temple.edu!bismarck From: bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu (Aaron Dial) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:53:30 GMT Organization: Temple University, Academic Computer Services Lines: 14 Message-ID: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: uniblab.ocis.temple.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought this would be an interesting topic of conversation. Aaron, Delaware, far, far away from the Pacific Northwest -- ******************************************************** *** *** *** AARON DIAL is bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu *** *** *** ******************************************************** From iu91@sol.acs.unt.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:49 EDT 1994 Article: 78 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!sol!iu91 From: iu91@sol.acs.unt.edu (Frank Robert James) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Quicksand Experiences needed Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:18:26 GMT Organization: University of North Texas Lines: 14 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <359vl2$o24@hermes.unt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.acs.unt.edu Keywords: quicksand, mud, stories X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] My wife is writing a novel and needs real-life quicksand and/or deep mud experiences. (most survival books dedicate one or two sentances to the subject) The plot involves two young women, one with little wilderness experience and one with lots, and we want to keep things realistic! Any tales, experiences or referals would be greatly appreciated! EMail to: Rob at iu91@sol.acs.unt.edu THANKS! From jeffrey_p_wendt@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov Fri Sep 16 13:24:50 EDT 1994 Article: 79 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!eff!news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!grover.jpl.nasa.gov!jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov!jeffrey_p_wendt From: jeffrey_p_wendt@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov (Jeffrey P Wendt) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: FOR SALE: MRE'S Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 09:47:57 Organization: JPL Lines: 8 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 137.79.39.2 X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] I will be getting some cases in very soon, and they will be priced as follows: Case of 12 meals without heaters: $35.00 with heaters: $40.00 Drop me a line if interested. Jeff From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:51 EDT 1994 Article: 80 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Low Cost .. Low Tech Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <359vvn$cse@uudell.us.dell.com> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 20:32:52 GMT Lines: 93 Wow, this is terrific! Unfortunately, I can't stay long. I'm quitting my job in two weeks, and am going to equip my truck to spend 1-3 months living in Nat'l Forests, BLM land etc. in Nevada, Utah, and maybe other places. Obviously, I have some planning to do. I will not actually be practicing complete "survivalism", as I will be taking food in with me (potatoes, onions, other vegetables, beans, rice, etc. as well as *some* canned meats like tuna, chicken and beef jerky for stew) and when the food, gas or water run low (1-2 weeks...?) I'll drive to the nearest town and buy some more. Perhaps I'll take notes and submit them to the newsgroup through friends with net access during, or after. One comment I want to make at this point is the importance I see in good organization. Planning, clear thinking, and clear identification of issues are very important. Survival in any situation, including in the situations of modern life in the city, hinge on: o The ability to recognize what things in your environment are *significant* to your survival, as opposed to recognizing what things have limited immediate impact on your survival, and... o ...discriminate between threats and resources, friends and enemies, tools and toys, panicky fear and real danger. Once you have some basic idea of the composition of your environment you can start to... o ...organize your efforts, your resources, your communication and the relationships with your family, friends or partners. Your immediate goal is to develop stability, safety and confidence in your immediate situation. After you do this, you can... o ...begin to plan for things that *haven't* happened yet. I realize that this is just one way of looking at survival. I myself would ignore using this model if it didn't seem to be useful to me at the time. But having thought about this subject a bit, I believe that this model addresses some important issues in the event of disasters, whether natural or man-made, for example, Panic. This is a real problem when we find ourselves in an unfamiliar, dangerous situation. Just the act of concentrating on simple tasks helps us control panic. And we develop the ability to focus on simple tasks under stressful conditions through organization, planning, and finally training. This all has to happen *before* the dangerous situation arises. To me, that's the best thing about this model (or any model, really, that focuses on IDENTIFYING, ORGANIZING and PLANNING) is that it is most useful *before* the disaster occurs. By thinking ahead, we get that critical edge over the next person, the old "Ant and the Cricket" fable. *What*, exactly, are we trying to protect ourselves *from*? Natural disasters have been mentioned. So has the spectre of civil unrest. There's always the old bogeyman of atomic war. Historically, plague springs to mind. And I'm sure that everybody here has had the experience of simply breaking down on the side of the road. Maybe it was at night in a dangerous urban neighborhood. Maybe it was at noon in July in Death Valley, California. Same cause, but *very different problems*, and consequently, very different survival strategies. In one you bring a heavy stick, in the other, a light- weight umbrella. What I would like most to see is for the people on this list to *organize* their thinking. You don't like guns? Good. Work on plans for all of us that don't require firearms. You have an arsenal in your basement that rivals some Carribean nations? Excellent! Share your expertise in as well thought out, organized and complete set of information, plans, contingencies, etc. as you can. That way, we all benefit. And that way, after the apocalypse (ho ho ho) we'll all know each other's tricks, and no one group can get the upper hand. That's just a little joke. Anyways, that's all I wanted to say for now. There is so much ground to cover, and who knows how much time before the next hurricane, forest fire, riot or automotive breakdown one of us will experience? The idea of debate grounded in solid research and careful planning intrigues me. How about you? A number of the people who have just posted today seem to have very solid attitudes about survival. I'm looking forward to hearing all of your thoughts. To restate my challenge to all of you, I ask again: *Exactly* what situations are we on this newsgroup dedicated to defending ourselves from? I believe that an explicit list will help frame future dialogue. I hope I haven't stepped on any toes. Liberty, Brotherhood, Equality, Robert Holder Denver, Colorado "Any man can endure hardship, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." -- Abraham Lincoln From LONGSA%DFCS@pcmail.usafa.af.mil Fri Sep 16 13:24:51 EDT 1994 Article: 81 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!news.usafa.af.mil!pcmail.usafa.af.mil!LONGSA%DFCS From: LONGSA%DFCS@pcmail.usafa.af.mil (Sean A. Long) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 18:39:07 GMT Organization: United States Air Force Academy Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.236.8.68 In article <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) writes: >In article <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu>, >Shane Patrick Ahern wrote: >>Are there any true survivalists out there? > Yes, welcome! I'm so glad this base got started, and that my positive >vote actually had an effect. Congratulations to all of those others who >helped get this base installed as well. Thank you! > My first question/topic: What's the best form of shelter to purchase >for use in a long-term "rebellion" type of open warfare? Is something >like the U.S. Army's two-man shelter halves a good investment or should >I simply be content with a good water-repellent sleeping bag which I >can roll up into my pack harness? >^TW >From my experience teaching SERE Survival at USAFA two years, you want at the very least to keep your sleeping bag dry at all costs. This means some sort of cover on top (even 'chute material sheds rain when stretched tight), and some sort of platform to keep the bag off the ground. We use both parachute material and rubberized ponchos during training for cover, and teach the students to built up out of pine needles, branches, etc. some sort of base to keep the bag out of any ground runoff. Even a water-repellent sleeping bag will lose LOTS of heat if it comes in contact with water, and will eventually become wet/waterlogged unless both completely sealed, rubberized, and NEW (no waterproofing scratched off). This type of top and bottom protection also keeps the bag clean which enhances thermal protection characteristics as well. I've tried it in the field, it works. The warmest I've ever been at night in the woods was on a 1 ft thick bed of pine branches under a parachute stretched out about 10 ft up, with about 20 other instructors packed in under the same 'chute... Toasty! -=>Sean Long From LONGSA%DFCS@pcmail.usafa.af.mil Fri Sep 16 13:24:52 EDT 1994 Article: 82 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!news.usafa.af.mil!pcmail.usafa.af.mil!LONGSA%DFCS From: LONGSA%DFCS@pcmail.usafa.af.mil (Sean A. Long) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 18:44:16 GMT Organization: United States Air Force Academy Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.236.8.68 In article <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) writes: >In article <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com>, >Frank Langham wrote: >> >>...Comments/Additions? >>=Frank= >I would add Radio Receiver (ham or cb or both). >Obviously, lotsa batteries for the above. Or crystal radio set without batteries... I've seen absolutely incredible crystal radio sets that need no power but pull in just about everything. -=>Sean Long From icm@infobiz.cityscape.co.uk Fri Sep 16 13:24:53 EDT 1994 Article: 83 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!pipex!cityscape.co.uk!usenet From: icm@infobiz.cityscape.co.uk (Ian McNally) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Bad Publicity Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:16:15 GMT Organization: Cityscape Lines: 23 Message-ID: <35ao4f$jto@ns.cityscape.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ac035.du.pipex.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 Hey, you lot have got some seriously bad press in the UK at the moment due to the Rachel Nickell trial. If you don't know... basically some poor girl got stabbed 46 times to death by some evil bastard and the Met Police are trying to pin it on some sad loner with survivalist tendencies. The current buzz in the UK press is the fact that a guy has just been acquitted of the crime because the police tried to frame him for the crime, because he was a loner with survivalist tendencies and strange sexual fascinations. They used an undercover cop and a psychologist to write to this guy to try and coerce him into confessing. He never did, however. meanwhile, the police will probably try to fix up some other poor loner with this (admittedly horrific) crime by targeting survivalists and other single men. What do YOU think? From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:54 EDT 1994 Article: 84 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: 15 Sep 1994 16:50:03 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 21 Message-ID: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 ADD "KNOWLEDGE" or "LIBRARY" to the list... build a good library for reference... Start with a few good general guides and periodically cart all your old Survival/Sufficiency periodicals out to your country "hide" whenever you go to visit. So... We now have. * Knowledge (library) ...car trunk or retreat facility. * Water (the means to clean/store/disinfect/acquire) * Food (MRE/Dehydrated/etc) * Security (Guns and the means to conceal YOURSELF...Optics..partners) * FIRST AIDE (Supplies/Manuals/Training) * AIR (gas-masks, etc...I, personally, don't think this is critical) Anything else which is FUNDAMENTAL??? (KEEP IT SIMPLE, PLEASE!) ...Comments/Additions? =Frank= From e4321167@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au Fri Sep 16 13:24:54 EDT 1994 Article: 86 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!msuinfo!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!dingo.cc.uq.oz.au!e4321167 From: e4321167@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au (Michael Coombes) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Renewable Power Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:26:23 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 18 Message-ID: <35ahmf$ftu@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Hi there all. Here in Australia, there is a company called the Rainbow Power Company. Its aim is to produce electricity from renewable power sources - things like small streams, small windmills etc. These small generators have a huge range of uses in a survival situation. While they cannot produce a huge amount of power on their own, it is enough to power communication and detection equipment. The adress to write to for more information is; Rainbow Power Company 1 Alternative Way Nimbin, NSW Australia BEZ From abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:55 EDT 1994 Article: 87 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!abrez From: abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:48:56 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL Lines: 17 Message-ID: <35aq1o$sa8@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu In article , Sean A. Long wrote: > >Or crystal radio set without batteries... I've seen absolutely incredible >crystal radio sets that need no power but pull in just about everything. > >-=>Sean Long I've never heard of that... It sounds really cool-- where could I get one, and how much do they go for? Aaron Brezenski "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me." Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati "If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion." "... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" From algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:56 EDT 1994 Article: 88 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!oucsace!ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu!ALGEO From: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (the virtual valkyrie) Subject: Re: A Good Start Message-ID: Sender: news@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (news account) Reply-To: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Organization: Ohio University Computing & Technology Services References: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com>,<35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 00:25:20 GMT Lines: 23 In article <35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu>, burton@sun.lclark.edu (Kathleen Burton) writes: >thanks for the info on the basics of survivalism. > >i'd be specifically interested in finding out about living the 1800's >way. where can i find out more? books? or do you know anyplace that >would offer classes? or just trial and error? or find someone to >teach me? Your local library has many books on old-fashioned skills, such as the _Foxfire_ series. There may be classes in your area, but of course you'd have to talk to someone local about that. I'd be happy to share my own skills, such as they are, with anyone who wants to know. I know about herbal medicine and edible wild plants, and quite a lot about the various fiber skills. I'd like to trade for some solid info on defensible shelters. -- Melissa Algeo algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu algeo@monolith.mit.edu From honig@ics.uci.edu Fri Sep 16 13:24:57 EDT 1994 Article: 89 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!not-for-mail From: honig@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 15:32:19 -0700 Organization: UC Disneyland, in the Kingdom of Bren Lines: 23 Message-ID: <35ai1j$j63@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: honig@ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) NNTP-Posting-Host: buckaroo.ics.uci.edu rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: >I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns >the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't >seen any posts on the subject *sigh* Maybe I'll have to >post some files on the subject to straighten things out. > >P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? Unless you're volunteering, probably not. This group forked off rec.guns, not just rec.treehuggers :-), so deal with it. Also, most people (alas) live in cities. dh -- David A. Honig, informivore In a world of compromise, some don't. ---Heckler & Koch "Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?" - C. D. Tavares From bglover@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:58 EDT 1994 Article: 90 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!bglover From: bglover@netcom.com (William Glover) Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 22:46:35 GMT Lines: 47 Ronald Walters (rwalters@bu.edu) wrote: : STEPHENSON (dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote: : : These kinds of things and this group made me think: : : Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons : : of some sort? In Flordia survival can be getting along for days with nothing but your wits. After a big Huricane, I was in Cammille in the 1968 timeframe, you learn what survival means. In CA it means earthquakes, riots and other such. In 1989 we had a few rough days. In recent years the riots caused a lot of apprehension. In all cases being able to prepare food, have clean water, do first aid, help serverly wounded folks, look for lost and trapped people, all these things came into play. Modern support services are the first to fail. Water systems go quick, food takes a little longer. A 2 week supply should get you through. The earthquake preparedness groups run by the state and local governments out in CA recommend this as a minimum. Weapons stockpiles, not really. Food, water, tools, training yep. A weapon might be useful, as the experience in CA recently proved, the first causuality is usually order, the second is respect for others property, and maybe the people themselves. A good weapon, a riot shotgun would do nicely. Get some flare shells for signaling. Buckshot for defense. 100 or so shells should do. If that is a "stockpile" so be it. I call prudent preparation. Bill ======================================================== "The only power any government has is to crack down on crime and criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, then one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens. What's there in that for anyone. But just pass the kinds of law that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of lawbreakers - and then you can cash in on their guilt." --Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged-- ======================================================== From bglover@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:59 EDT 1994 Article: 91 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!bglover From: bglover@netcom.com (William Glover) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 22:50:31 GMT Lines: 26 A discussion of PGP might be in order? I think this is appropiate "before", and after, but during...??? But in a survival situation, computers and communications are unlikely to work. Battery radios are much better. Packet radio has some usefulness in message traffic management. Two way FM radios are best, CB marginal, HF better since it can reach outside of the affected area. AM/FM battery portables as a minimum. Bill ======================================================== "The only power any government has is to crack down on crime and criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, then one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens. What's there in that for anyone. But just pass the kinds of law that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of lawbreakers - and then you can cash in on their guilt." --Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged-- ======================================================== From bglover@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 13:24:59 EDT 1994 Article: 92 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!bglover From: bglover@netcom.com (William Glover) Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to t.. Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3585rv$826@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> <358f8t$jb4$2@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 22:56:46 GMT Lines: 53 J Moschell (72714.3044@CompuServe.COM) wrote: : I use the "Storm Theory". Prepare for a *BIG* storm, say a : hurricane. What do you need for that kind of storm. You need a : lot of different things for that situation. Now, you people in : the non-hurricane areas can relate to tornados, blizzards, etc. : It is the same for these situations as well. : Now, take it one step further... A hurricane in which you and : your family must survive 10 days without food or water...a : hurricane where you and your neighbors will confront looters on a : daily basis for those ten days. A struggle for life itself. : Take it further...30 days...60 days. : Using this theory, you will be prepared for the worst...a : hurricane. Let's say that ANY other disaster comes, you are : prepared. Its easy to say to friends, relatives, neighbors, and : others that I am prepared for "THE STORM". : Basically, what I am saying is that you don't have to have an : attitude that the Russians or the CIA are coming for : you...Prepare for a major "Storm" and if its a storm or Russians, : or the CIA, you are prepared. I'm not saying this is definitive, : but it is a good place to start. It takes away from the stigma : that Survivalism is BAD. Having gone through a hurricane, and a major earthquake...this is the proper analogy. The hurricane is worse, since it levels everything in a large area. Look at FL years after Andrew hit. It took about 3 weeks for things to get some normality back to areas outside the affected areas. Years for those that were hit. For a week or more most in the "hit area" were on there own. Roads were not useable, folks had to walk out for help. The affected area was huge when you have to walk. Cars and trucks faired poorly in the hit area. Bill ======================================================== "The only power any government has is to crack down on crime and criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, then one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens. What's there in that for anyone. But just pass the kinds of law that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted and you create a nation of lawbreakers - and then you can cash in on their guilt." --Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged-- ======================================================== From robertb@comtch.iea.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:00 EDT 1994 Article: 93 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!krel.iea.com!comtch!robertb From: robertb@comtch.iea.com (Robert Blanchard) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:01:58 GMT Organization: CompuTech, Spokane WA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35an9m$7fg@krel.iea.com> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: comtch.iea.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Aaron Dial (bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu) wrote: : If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, : and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most : versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought : this would be an interesting topic of conversation. first somthing simple to take care of. Alot of people run for the flashy AK's and AR-15's but for the long haul a bolt-action would be better. even with a semi-auto the spray and pray somtimes creeps up. with a bolt there is less ammo wasted. also a bolt is easier to clean and repair(headspacing an M16 is a b*tch). There are two other reasons,they're not as resticted *yet* and they are less expensive. Before people jump on this I wont to say that I dont hate automatics. I've owned class-3's and MY ak DOES have a middle position. I just know their limitations. Robert robertb@comtch.iea.com From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:01 EDT 1994 Article: 95 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Sender: news@bigtop.dr.att.com (Netnews Administration Login) Organization: ATT - GBCS Denver Labs References: <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 00:42:40 GMT Lines: 12 a number of people have suggested that they will not rely on the internet during disasters. this is a reasonable position. but don't forget packet BBS. if you are not familiar with this, this is ham radio based (digital) bbs network. if you have a generator, a personal computer w/software and a transceiver, you will continue to be a part of the global computer network (and therefore access to lots of info via usenet etc., imagine: potential access to technical info, medical expertise, news) that will survive everything but EMP or physical destruction of your site. rdh From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:02 EDT 1994 Article: 96 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Various Message-ID: Sender: news@bigtop.dr.att.com (Netnews Administration Login) Organization: ATT - GBCS Denver Labs References: <35adub$1e2@news.service.uci.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 00:48:42 GMT Lines: 13 despite my previous post, I have to agree with Devin Murphy. in the future, as telecommunications becomes more distributed, the internet may take on more importance during an "apocalypse" type situation, but for now, the computer would be just more to carry. I still maintain, thought, that during a temporary thing like a hurricane, earthquake, or localized riot, the net would be very useful, and it might serve us to examine where it would be useful and where it would be a waste of time. rdh From basiji@u.washington.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:03 EDT 1994 Article: 97 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!basiji From: basiji@u.washington.edu (David Basiji) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:57:40 GMT Organization: University of Washington Lines: 35 Message-ID: <35aqi4$psl@news.u.washington.edu> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stein3.u.washington.edu bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu (Aaron Dial) writes: >If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, >and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most >versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought >this would be an interesting topic of conversation. Are you heading to Seattle or are you going to live off the land somewhere? Those are very different environments that call for different skills and tools. In Seattle, you're not gonna be hunting squirrels for food (not for long, anyway ;o) and the most commonplace reason for owning a gun would be self-defense. In that case, a small, high capacity 9mm pistol would be my choice (a Glock, since you asked) or a small .357 revolver. In the forest, assuming you're going to be living off the land and obeying all hunting regulations, I'd get a scoped .22 rifle (a Ruger 10/22 in particular). Since you can only legally hunt large game for a few weeks out of the year, you'd be living off of smaller game most of the time. A powerful rifle will only leave a small red smudge where you thought your target was sitting. The 22 is very accurate up to 50 yards or so and doesn't destroy too much meat. It's also cheap to shoot so you get a lot of practice in and hone your skills. Of course, if you don't care about hunting laws and are worried about civil collapse/military takeover/whatever and plan on living like a hermit while the world goes to Hell around you, I'd get a .308 bolt-action rifle with a Leupold 4-14x50 scope (with iron sights as backup, of course). All else being equal, you're better off shooting large game than small and the .308 is powerful enough for just about anything short of a grizzly bear and accurate enough to shoot in a 6 inch circle at 300 yards. The caliber is used by the military so there's plenty of it around and it is deadly at 800 yards. David Basiji UW Bioengineering From gbrennan@umich.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:04 EDT 1994 Article: 98 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!zaxxon.rs.itd.umich.edu!gbrennan From: gbrennan@umich.edu (Gerald Brennan) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:57:29 GMT Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 21 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <35ajgp$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> References: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zaxxon.rs.itd.umich.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] : Henry T Robertson (htrst1+@pitt.edu) wrote: : : In article , : : Benjamin Johnson wrote: : : >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not : : >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. : : There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves : : from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. Ronald Walters (rwalters@bu.edu) wrote: : *****What relevance does this have to this newsgroup? Yeah. Hey, Henry -- I think you want .alt.anti-sodomite. -- __________________ Gerald Brennan gbrennan@umich.edu From cyberthug@aol.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:04 EDT 1994 Article: 99 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: cyberthug@aol.com (CyberThug) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Fuel Storage (was Re: talk about this?) Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:56:05 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 18 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <35atvl$d96@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com>, lovecraf@infinet.com (Ed Michalski) writes: >There are certain gas additives which can prolong the life of stored >gasoline far greater than our lifetimes. Can you give us a name brand or chemical name? Another poster mentioned fuel stabilizers, which I just decided to try. He said they were good for about a year, but none of the ones I saw gave any specifics on how long they last. BTW - I've stored fuel without a stabilizer for up to a year and had no problems when mixed with fresh fuel in at least a 50/50 mix (favoring fresh fuel). I was hoping that the stabilizers would keep it good for at least 2 - 5 yrs. (And I second the opinion that rotating all stock - be it fuel, food, ammo, or whatever, is a good idea). Kevin aka CyberThug From velkey@selway.umt.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:05 EDT 1994 Article: 100 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!selway.umt.edu!not-for-mail From: velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: 15 Sep 1994 19:44:12 -0600 Organization: University of Montana, Missoula Lines: 36 Message-ID: <35at9c$n5j@selway.umt.edu> References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> <35aq1o$sa8@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu In article <35aq1o$sa8@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Aaron Brezenski wrote: >In article , >Sean A. Long wrote: >> >>Or crystal radio set without batteries... I've seen absolutely incredible >>crystal radio sets that need no power but pull in just about everything. >> >>-=>Sean Long > >I've never heard of that... It sounds really cool-- where could I get one, >and how much do they go for? > >Aaron Brezenski Good question. Radio Shack sells a crystal kit for under $15. That would work, you could even make it more durable. Crystal Radios pickup AM trans- missions and, thanks to the ionosphere, receive programming from thousands of miles away. They can be tricky to tune. My grandpa showed my how to make one with the windings from a broken telephone wrapped around an oatmeal box (the round ones) [plus some other stuff]. I hooked the lead to the tether line of a utility pole and received KDKA (in Pittsburg) in central Mississippi. I wish I could remember how to make one. That would make a good posting for the group (HINT! HINT!) I'd do it except that I am in the middle of writing my Prospectus and don't really have the time. Andrew J. Velkey Dept of Psychology, Univ. of MT Grad Student, etc. From velkey@selway.umt.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:06 EDT 1994 Article: 101 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!selway.umt.edu!not-for-mail From: velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 20:02:49 -0600 Organization: University of Montana, Missoula Lines: 52 Message-ID: <35auc9$p27@selway.umt.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> <359voh$ij8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu In article , 131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 wrote: >I like Duane Mantick and David Basiji's attitudes, and I agree >about the .22 ...after feeding $16+ into my glock at the range >time after time I grew to miss buying .22 cartridges in those >terrific little "milk carton" containers by the 500 count for >$6 or so! > >Duane (and others) do you have any experience with the .30-.30? >Is lever action reliable? It seemed to me like a good compromise >between rabbit caliber and man-stopper, and the rifles I have seen >are generally shorter in overall length--more easily handled in >close quarters. What are your opinions, if any? > >Regards > >Robert Holder >Denver, Colorado I think that whenever you are considering a weapon, you need to consider the parameters of its use. I suggested a .22LR b/c they are lightweight, you can pack ALOT of ammo, are fairly inexpensive to both own and shoot ( if you can practice 500 rounds for $15, you can get to be a pretty good shot). The .22LR is a pretty acurate weapon and is easily wielded by the user. A monster like a .30-06 is going to require much greater investment in money and you can't blast a few hundred rounds in a weekend to hone your skills (20 rounds and my shoulder starts talking to me :) ). Obviously, if you are concerned about picking off targets at 500 yds, then you need a little more power. If you are concerned with bringing down big game, you need more firepower. In the amount of time it takes you to track (or wait for) a deer/elk/moose/bear/etc., I've plinked off 10 or so squirrels, dressed them, and cooked 'em on a spit. As far as the human threat is concerned, talk to any trauma surgeon. The worst damage they see is from .22LR and .32 caliber wounds. The High Powered rounds tend to impact, expand to about 10X, and exit. Sure, that's pretty nasty when you consider a head shot or something. A .22 goes in, hits bone/cartilage, and bounces. They'll do a real "pinball" machine in your insides. Others may tout their para-military style weapons, but I don't think I want to depend on looting gov't stores when I need ammo. To get back to the original question (Gee, I did kinda stray here), I think the .30-30 is a fine weapon. The lever action is nice. It has plenty of knockdown for deer and similar sized targets (a friend did take down a 4 point elk with 3 shots, but he is a CRACK shot). I don't think I would want to depend on one if the proverbial stuff hit the fan. They can be difficult to field strip and have many parts which can fail. I can buy a .22LR with scope and a 1000 rounds for half the price of a decent .30-30. Andrew J. Velkey Dept of Psychology, Univ of MT Grad Student, etc. From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:07 EDT 1994 Article: 102 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: RE:FBI (THIS IS *NOT* TALK.POLITICS.GUNS!!!) Date: 15 Sep 1994 19:07:47 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 17 Message-ID: <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 HEY, BUD! You ought to know better than to *TRY* to start this topic of discussion over on this group. THIS IS AN INFORMATIONAL GROUP and should not contain political topics unless they apply DIRECTLY to this group! A political topic that WOULD be appropriate would be "Why the DoD has decided to destroy surplus ammo cans, tents, gas-masks, etc. rather than resell it to the public. (The answer is that the Clinstoned administration has decided that such paraphenalia perpetuates the "gun culture"...uhg!) ...I know you could stretch your argument to include "preparedness" but, REALLY, Why don't you just tell folks to participate in t.p.g rather than trashing up this group with a bunch of political soap-box stuff. PLEASE!?!...and...THANK YOU (all). =Frank= P.S. I am totally sympathetic and interested in your opinions and point of view... I just don't want to have to wade through a bunch of crap to find valuable technical info regarding preparedness...thanks, really! From cyberthug@aol.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:08 EDT 1994 Article: 103 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: cyberthug@aol.com (CyberThug) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:13:05 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 21 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <35auvh$dhc@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu>, dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) writes: >Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >of some sort? I tend to agree for the most part with the other responses I've read on this subject, but I'd like to add a little: If you are uneasy with firearms, you probably shouldn't own them, at least until you've taken some kind of firearms safety course. If you are adamantly opposed to guns, that still doesn't preclude you from being a survivalist. Even in a worst case scenario - i.e. breakdown of civilization, looting, etc., if you can find an isolated enough area where defending yourself from two legged predators is not a primary concern, you could prepare yourself enough to get by using a bow, a sling, or traps & snares to provide enough meat to get by. You could even survive on a vegitarian diet if you're a good enough forager (some anthropologists have even questioned the cost effectiveness of the hunting half of hunter/gatherer societies). Kevin aka CyberThug From gbrennan@umich.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:08 EDT 1994 Article: 104 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!zaxxon.rs.itd.umich.edu!gbrennan From: gbrennan@umich.edu (Gerald Brennan) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 15 Sep 1994 23:16:00 GMT Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 25 Message-ID: <35akjg$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: zaxxon.rs.itd.umich.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] George Guillory (guillory@blkbox.com) wrote: : Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that : the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms : (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. But that's crazy. As unpleasant and _presumably_ irrelevant as these topics may be to some, they are indeed part of the picture, and should not be ignored. Those who don't wish to participate in those threads, if they develop, need not do so. The gun forums are not designed _specifically_ for the survivalist point-of-view. But I'm not the esteemed moderator, and if the forum is censored as to these topics, then that's the way it is... : I think we do : ourselve a disservice when we say "this is real survivalism" or "that is : real survivalism. It's all survivalism. We may have our favorite areas : to study but none are better than others. Well said. I, like George, an looking forward to the discussion of all aspects of this topic. __________________ Gerald Brennan gbrennan@umich.edu From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:09 EDT 1994 Article: 105 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Another place for discussing survivalism Message-ID: <1994Sep16.021103.28830@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 02:11:03 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 63 I have been running a small e-mail list (around 50 people) regarding survivalism for almost a year. Below is the info file. Take it for what it's worth... Note: Survive-List and misc.survivalism are in no way connected except that they deal with the same general subject material. Survive-List Info File... +++++++++++++++++++++++++ This list is for discussing preparedness, eating roots and berries, guns, politics, privacy, home schooling and whatever else YOU think pertains to 'survival'. If you think if even vaguely pertains to 'survival' or 'survivalism' and you want to post, go right ahead. I'm not going to censor posts, but if someone makes a REAL nuisance of himself, I'll delete him involuntarily. It would take quite a bit, though, to get deleted, so don't worry. If you get to the point where you are pissing me off (it takes a LOT to do that), I'll give you fair warning. A few caveats... 1) This is ONLY an alias. I'm not going to spend time administering a list or archive. If someone else wants to do this, I don't have a problem with that. 2) The machine that this is on is owned by the Physics Dept. and they don't have any interest in this topic. If anyone at my site complains, the list will go *poof* in a highly motivated fashion. I'll try to let the list know before this happens, but I don't give guarantees. 3) Don't be stupid. This is going over a public network and you *KNOW* BB is reading. Act accordingly. 4) If anyone out there thinks they have a better machine to put this list on, then let me know and we'll move it. 5) If you can think of anyone who might be interested in this list, tell them about it. The more, the merrier (up to a point...). Subscribing: Send mail to 'survive-request@buckaroo.pas.rochester.edu' giving me your e-mail address. This gets forwarded to me (a live person!!!) so make yourself clear. Posting: Send your posts to 'survive-list@buckaroo.pas.rochester.edu'. Suggestions are greatly appreciated. Flames are ignored. -Bill VanRemmen billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one else's. Definitely not the U of R's. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:10 EDT 1994 Article: 106 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? In-Reply-To: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu's message of 14 Sep 1994 17:38:59 -0400 Message-ID: <1994Sep16.022330.29406@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 02:23:30 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 23 In <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu writes: > for use in a long-term "rebellion" type of open warfare? Is something > like the U.S. Army's two-man shelter halves a good investment or should > I simply be content with a good water-repellent sleeping bag which I > can roll up into my pack harness? YUCK! The shelter halves make a shelter that is drafty and leaky. Not to mention somewhat heavy and a bitch to set up in the dark. -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:11 EDT 1994 Article: 107 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!abrez From: abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Ratings system... Date: 15 Sep 1994 20:20:14 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL Lines: 30 Message-ID: <35aa9u$nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu A couple posts have stressed the need for PRIORITIES: what's more important, a gun or a can opener, a radio or surplus blankets. I propose a ratings system for use within the group, something which could allow someone to post: "I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo should be a category 2 item." and everyone could tell what they were saying, rather than having to describe the conditions under which items would be necessary. I'm thinking of something like Rating Description 1 Absolutely Necessary 2 Necessary 3 Important 4 Useful 5 Luxury 6 Stupid 7 Dangerous I'm new at this, so let the flames begin!!! Aaron Brezenski "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me." Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati "If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion." "... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:12 EDT 1994 Article: 108 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!world!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: RE:FBI (THIS IS *NOT* TALK.POLITICS.GUNS!!!) Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 22:20:54 GMT Lines: 26 In article <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes: |> HEY, BUD! |> You ought to know better than to *TRY* to start this topic of discussion |> over on this group. Is this in reference to the post about the possibility of US civilians fighting US military? Actually, I found that message to ask interesting questions about the (probably remote) possibility of a catastrophic breakdown in our societal and governmental structure. I'm referring to the message by Shane Ahern, the fellow who also asked about whether any of us planned to attempt to use the internet during disasters, as it was designed for. This is also an interesting question to me. Iraq used our own internet during the war, and they were in a survival situation if there ever was one. The internet was also a critical communications pathway during the collapse of the soviet government. I think that question was a good one as well. My personal answer to Mr. Ahern would be that I do not anticipate that level of preparedness and sophistication into the foreseeable future, mostly due to a lack of funds. As far as the first subject goes, I was quite interested in thinking about the subjects brought up by Mr. Ahern and found them relevant to the subject of survival. Robert Holder From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:13 EDT 1994 Article: 109 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!world!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: PLEASE! KEEP OUR SUBJECT MATTER PURE Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <35a9p8$g7p@uudell.us.dell.com> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 22:28:33 GMT Lines: 31 hm. Frank Langham, whose other messages I found to be very interesting, says... "...enemies of our mindset..." *whose* mindset? While I agree with many of Mr. Langham's points, I suspect I do not agree with his politics, and that's fine by me. Democracy in action. But the "enemies of our mindset" thing makes me uncomfortable. He also goes on to say... "I hope this is the very last time I will have to..." ...I thought this group *didn't* have a moderator. I look forward to your messages about survivalism, Mr. Langham. Perhaps you'll find usenet more palatable if you explore the function of killfiles. I find that they reduce the "irrelevance factor" quite well. And as far as the "government and anti-gun" factions that are trying to "discredit us", I can only wonder who "us" is. I do not speak for you Mr. Langham. That's why I have enjoyed those first messages of yours I read: they were educational for me. Please do not presume to speak for me. Regards, Robert Holder Denver, Colorado From cyberthug@aol.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:14 EDT 1994 Article: 110 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: cyberthug@aol.com (CyberThug) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:38:01 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 39 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <35b0e9$dv3@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: <359p3b$hg1@selway.umt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article <359p3b$hg1@selway.umt.edu>, velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) writes: >I think you are after the solar still idea here. You dig a hole several >times greater in diameter than your container (#10 cans are great, but >you can use anything, pie plate, air cleaner lid, hubcap, you get the >picture). You place your container at the bottom of the hole and, if >available, put a piece of tubing down in the bottom. Then, lay a sheet >of plastic, nylon, car headliner, whatever over the hole. Weight the edges >of the sheet in place and place a stone in the center. Water will condense >and drip down into the container. In a long-term survival situation, I >would boil this water and/or filter it just to be safe. In an emergency, >it should be potable. This is also a good place to extract the water from your cactus. Some cacti are so unpalatable that they can make you vomit (which is absolutely counter-productive in a desert survival situation). Also other organic matter, questionable water, or anything else you can think of that might have water in it can go in your solar still- including radiator fluid. I've never heard of having to boil water from a solar still, after all, it's been distilled. Just make sure nothing potentially dangerous gets too close to your clean water collector inside the still. BTW, black or clear plastic work best, I keep a large sheet of clear plastic and a plastic tube in my bail-out kit (clear because you can see what's going on in there). Also keep in mind that these things are not real efficient. If you're lucky, one still _might_ provide enough water for one person (about a cup or two a day). That's if you stay in the shade and do NOTHING during the heat of the day. But that's another desert survival thread. Best not use up all our material too soon. PS - I think the smooth rocks over a cup may be something entirely different from the solar still. Although I've never heard of it, it sounds plausible that you collect dew at night that way. Kevin aka CyberThug From lauramc@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:15 EDT 1994 Article: 111 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!news.utdallas.edu!corpgate!bnrgate!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!freenet3.scri.fsu.edu!freenet3.scri.fsu.edu!not-for-mail From: lauramc@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu (Laura McDonald) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: storing grains Date: 15 Sep 1994 19:54:29 -0400 Organization: Tallahassee Free-Net Lines: 9 Message-ID: <35amrl$29o@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet3.scri.fsu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] so to get this thing started off (with out the guns and such), what is a good way to store grain and greens without the 'frig. and other machinery ie: ala natural, without it molding over the winter months (exp. in areas like florida)? -- **!!** Laura **!!** #1 FSU fan From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:16 EDT 1994 Article: 112 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 02:33:20 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35b05g$gd0@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> <35akjg$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Gerald Brennan (gbrennan@umich.edu) wrote: : George Guillory (guillory@blkbox.com) wrote: : : Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that : : the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms : : (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. : But that's crazy. As unpleasant and _presumably_ irrelevant as these : topics may be to some, they are indeed part of the picture, and should : not be ignored. Those who don't wish to participate in those threads, if : they develop, need not do so. The gun forums are not designed : _specifically_ for the survivalist point-of-view. The problem I see about running a thread of more that one or two messages about guns is that unfortunately they get longer and longer, non-gun discussers move off and you would end up with a survival gun (mostly news group. Look at what happended to Survive and American Survival Guide (who is scraping back from such a move.) Now if someone wanted to start misc.survivalism.guns that is another matter. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:16 EDT 1994 Article: 113 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Reinforced Concrete Specifications? Date: 16 Sep 1994 02:42:41 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <35b0n1$gd0@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Murray Brain Calvert (mcalvert@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA) wrote: : I am planning to build an earth-sheltered house in the country (None of : your business where!). I would like the structure to withstand a major : earthquake or atomic blast from 10 miles away. I estimate that the load : could be 2000 pounds per square foot. Has anyone out there built a : reinforced concrete structure that could advise me on references for : structural engineering? Also I can't find much about design life, i.e. : how long before the rebar rusts. A good book on this subject is "The Survival Home Manual" by Joel Skousen. He does consultancy work also. The edition I have is 1982 and has an address of Joel Skousen, Survival Homes Corp, 4270 Westcliff Dr., Hood River, OR, 97031. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From arr@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:17 EDT 1994 Article: 114 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!arr From: arr@netcom.com (Angel Rivera) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 21:55:33 GMT Lines: 17 Who cares? What does this have to do with survivalism? In article , Benjamin Johnson wrote: >homosexuals in the "Christian" rightwing, such as: >Eustace Mullins, author of Secrets of the Federal Reserve, allegedly >arrested in New York state for sodomizing a young boy in the '50s. > >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. > >Anyone know anything about this? I'd like to know. > From bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:18 EDT 1994 Article: 115 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!oucsace!bjohnson From: bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Benjamin Johnson) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens References: <35a6eu$91@illuminati.io.com> Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 23:04:37 GMT Lines: 20 Many postings have been run asking what this has to do with survivalism. I posted this on this newsgroup, because there are, from what I gather, considerable folks in the survivalist camp who are involved with groups like these, and perhaps they would have some information on one way or another. I don't know whether these charges are true or not and thought someone here might be able to provide this kind of info. I don't have a clue what goes on in those circles of the ideological spectrum. This has importance to survivalists who ARE in these groups, because if they're true, then the members are following charlatans and possibly being monitored by Big Brother, none of which is compatible with survivalist ideology, as defined by this group. I appreciate all responses and hope someone knows something about this. Thanks so much, BEN JOHNSON From sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Fri Sep 16 13:25:19 EDT 1994 Article: 116 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!sybok From: sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: The Gun Ban Date: 16 Sep 1994 03:03:57 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35b1ut$979@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> References: <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: m1-142-25.mit.edu In article <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: >I stole a MAK. How did a common criminal like yourself get net access? If this is how much you respect others' rights, maybe you should join ATF. >I also found an 80-round drum magazine from China and a >night scope. My friend knows about a really good gunsmith with all >the tools we need to make it fully automatic. Before converting it, check to make sure it's operating correctly. The muzzle is a viewport. Look in and operate the trigger. From kovar@nda.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:20 EDT 1994 Article: 117 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgiblab!news.kgc.com!kpc!NewsWatcher!user From: kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 10:35:50 -0800 Organization: Net Daemons Associates, Inc. Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.52.104.196 In article <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu>, Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) wrote: > I heard you got a Sten. My friends and me picked up a Mini-14. I got > it with a night scope and a night scope. It's cool. I heard about a > gunsmith with all the tools we need to make it fully automatic. > > -------- > For more information about this anonymous posting service,please send mail > to remailer@csua.berkeley.edu with Subject: remailer-info. > -------- Just for anyone who is confused, that last paragraph is automatically generated by some of the anonymous remailers. They are assuming that all their traffic is monitored and are hoping to overload any monitoring software, or at least to generate sufficient noise to make it less useful. Or so I understand things ..... -David From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Fri Sep 16 13:25:21 EDT 1994 Article: 118 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:59:09 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 12 Message-ID: <35aqkt$rq6$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> > and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most > versatile platform? You might want to start with your ammo and work backwards. You will need a gun that has bullets. Figure out the ammo part and the gun decision will be made for you. -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Those that beat guns into plows will plow for those that don't. From basiji@u.washington.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:22 EDT 1994 Article: 119 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!basiji From: basiji@u.washington.edu (David Basiji) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 01:07:35 GMT Organization: University of Washington Lines: 24 Message-ID: <35ar4n$q41@news.u.washington.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> <359voh$ij8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stein3.u.washington.edu rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: >I like Duane Mantick and David Basiji's attitudes, and I agree >about the .22 ...after feeding $16+ into my glock at the range >time after time I grew to miss buying .22 cartridges in those >terrific little "milk carton" containers by the 500 count for >$6 or so! >Duane (and others) do you have any experience with the .30-.30? >Is lever action reliable? It seemed to me like a good compromise >between rabbit caliber and man-stopper, and the rifles I have seen >are generally shorter in overall length--more easily handled in >close quarters. What are your opinions, if any? The 30-30 is a good short-medium range round (out to 150 yards or so). It's been around forever and a day and is relatively cheap. My opinion of lever actions is that they are reliable but heavy and not as accurate as a good bolt action. The rifles tend to be shorter but weigh as much as a longer bolt-action gun. Also note that they aren't easy to deal with from a prone position because they need clearance below to work the action. On the other hand, because the cocking and ejection are symmetrical, they're nice for lefties. The top ejection does makes it tricky to mount a scope. David Basiji UW Bioengineering From velkey@selway.umt.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:23 EDT 1994 Article: 121 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!selway.umt.edu!not-for-mail From: velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 15 Sep 1994 19:36:58 -0600 Organization: University of Montana, Missoula Lines: 40 Message-ID: <35asrq$m22@selway.umt.edu> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu In article , Sean A. Long wrote: > >From my experience teaching SERE Survival at USAFA two years, you want at >the very least to keep your sleeping bag dry at all costs. This means some >sort of cover on top (even 'chute material sheds rain when stretched tight), >and some sort of platform to keep the bag off the ground. We use both >parachute material and rubberized ponchos during training for cover, and >teach the students to built up out of pine needles, branches, etc. some sort >of base to keep the bag out of any ground runoff. Even a water-repellent >sleeping bag will lose LOTS of heat if it comes in contact with water, and >will eventually become wet/waterlogged unless both completely sealed, >rubberized, and NEW (no waterproofing scratched off). This type of top and >bottom protection also keeps the bag clean which enhances thermal protection >characteristics as well. I've tried it in the field, it works. The warmest >I've ever been at night in the woods was on a 1 ft thick bed of pine >branches under a parachute stretched out about 10 ft up, with about 20 other >instructors packed in under the same 'chute... Toasty! > >-=>Sean Long Great advice, here, but let's rememember one thing about Bough Beds: they are very good insulators but should only be used in an emergencey/survival situtation. If everybody and their brother began experimenting with this, we would have a heck of a lot less trees around. Know how to make one, yes. Practice, no. The military can "afford" to have it's people strip the land it "owns", but we can't. Part of survival depends on resources you can survive on actually being around. Note that in certain regions (ie Deep South), some very pesky things like to live in pine trees (CHIGGERS!). That Spanish Moss would make a nice insulator, too. But it houses even more creepy crawlies! I do not intend to start "save the forest,hug a tree" granola B.S. here, but I thought I would just pipe up since people are looking here for technical advice and are (hopefuly) apt to practice their learning. Andrew J. Velkey Dept of Psychology, Univ. of MT Grad Student, etc. From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:23 EDT 1994 Article: 122 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!world!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Sender: news@bigtop.dr.att.com (Netnews Administration Login) Organization: ATT - GBCS Denver Labs References: <35a6eu$91@illuminati.io.com> Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 01:09:17 GMT Lines: 7 just to fan the flames here... Ben Johnson, try the soc.* family of newsgroups or...? I have to agree that the internal machinations of *any* political party probably don't belong here. rdh From falstaff@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:24 EDT 1994 Article: 123 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!falstaff From: falstaff@netcom.com (anthony m. vervoort) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 23:54:30 GMT Lines: 18 rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: >Henry T Robertson (htrst1+@pitt.edu) wrote: >: In article , >: Benjamin Johnson wrote: >: >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >: >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. >: There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves >: from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. >*****What relevance does this have to this newsgroup? yeah, if you want to go trolling, try the personals newsgroups. From robertb@comtch.iea.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:25 EDT 1994 Article: 124 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!krel.iea.com!comtch!robertb From: robertb@comtch.iea.com (Robert Blanchard) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Low Cost .. Low Tech Date: 16 Sep 1994 06:38:45 GMT Organization: CompuTech, Spokane WA Lines: 21 Message-ID: <35behl$cgf@krel.iea.com> References: <359vvn$cse@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: comtch.iea.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Frank Langham (Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com) wrote: : And... Lets not forget tools, archery equipment and fishing gear. : all are inexpensive and reusable... : ...when you run out of MREs and Ammo... then? : ...Likewise, when you run out of water purification chemicals and filters, : you can still use distillation techniques etc. : =Frank= : P.S. MREs and Ammo fall more under the "Emergency Preparedness" category : while blades, fishing gear, and archery are more toward prolonged : Survival category. YES. Most people prepare for a situation that they see lasting only a short time. also add to the list of long term gear: hand grain mill, learn to make sour dough starter, and alcohol and a blacksmithing course wouldnt hurt either. I've seen to many survivalists with a closet full of weapons and they don't even know how to tan a hide or plant a tomato. Robert robertb@comtch.iea.com From locasso@tis.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:26 EDT 1994 Article: 125 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:43:41 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35a14d$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> References: <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com> Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article 1jv@rigel.infinet.com, lovecraf@infinet.com (Ed Michalski) writes: > > There are certain gas additives which can prolong the life of stored > gasoline far greater than our lifetimes. > Ed, Can you tell us what these additives are? Are they easily available? Expensive? Where can we get them? Rosaria Locasso From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:27 EDT 1994 Article: 126 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: PRIORITIES...PRIORITIES...Hmmmmmm... Date: 15 Sep 1994 17:55:02 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 33 Message-ID: <35a1pm$dhl@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 OKAY!...Now we are cooking on all burners... ... Add "COMMUNICATIONS" to the list.............BUT... ...Where to draw the line?... Obviously, some items are of higher priority than others. Preparedness is largely dependant on your budget, time and resources (not to mention commitment) so, I would like to foster some focus on priorities based on "criticality of need" and cost, weight, etc... We all must start somewhere and acquire knowledge, tools, commodities, real-estate, etc in some order and within some constraints. The less time and money a person has to dedicate to Survival or Preparedness, the more important it is to have his/her priorities clearly defined and documented so a plan can be systematically developed and executed. Obviously, we could say that Power Generators, Ham Radio, and underground shelters are important and desirable but there are so many options and considerations in developing MY personal plan of action that I am T-TOTALLY overwhelmed by the task. As with any such endeavor, I must outline the basic structure and categories of focus for my plan so that I can perform tasks and acquisitions in order of importance to the goal... "To provide and ensure good physical and psychological health allow in the presence of aggression or the absence of civilized services". IDEALLY, a well prioritized list of what to get/do first and next will be useful to anyone with any budget. (Note: Although I do not view Security as the most important survival goal, I chose to acquire guns and ammo first because the acquisition thereof is currently jeapordized by current and pending legislation). Sooooo... Please help me, yourself, and others by letting us know what *YOUR* priorities are and how you would approach this gargantuan task. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE! =FRANK= From london@.unc.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:28 EDT 1994 Article: 127 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!!london From: london@.unc.edu (Larry London) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Date: 16 Sep 1994 08:44:49 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35blu1$kte@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> <35a3ca$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: calzone.oit.unc.edu Keywords: safe water bacteria streams ponds In article , 131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 wrote: >I like not having a moderator, but perhaps some of us could >voluteer to collect and collate the information on this newsgroup? >I can help out for this month, but after that, my net access goes >away. I'm doing that at sunSITE.unc.edu. Send me the information you collect and I'll archive it in my misc.survivalism ftp/Gopher area. london@sunSITE.unc.edu From david@josephson.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:29 EDT 1994 Article: 128 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!sgiblab!a2i!davidj.a2i!davidj From: David Josephson, Josephson Engineering Subject: Re: talk about this? Message-ID: Sender: news@rahul.net (Usenet News) Nntp-Posting-Host: bolero.rahul.net Nntp-Posting-User: davidj Organization: a2i network References: <359d76$c4c@ceylon.gte.com> <35a23s$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 05:21:30 GMT Lines: 27 In <35a23s$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) writes: >In article c4c@ceylon.gte.com, alb0@roger.gte.com (Andrew Betz) writes: >> >> not long, unless you use a fuel stabilizer! your stored fuel will >> form shellac and all other sorts of weird compounds after a time. >What is the result of using gas that contains shellac and other compounds? >Is it just like "dirty" gas, that is, it works but not well, and eventually >clogs the carburetor? Or will it not run an engine at all? What is shellac, >anyway? Gasoline is made up of dozens of hydrocarbons, and lots of impurities from the crude oil that get through distillation. Shellac is made by dissolving the shells of a beetle in alcohol. I think what the poster meant was that there are lots of varnish-like substances that will form in gasoline if it's allowed to sit for many years, especially if there is air present so it can oxidize. But properly cared for, gas lasts a long time -- there are stocks of aviation fuel in Alaska from WWII that are still being used. The performance problem is usually that the octane rating drops over time as the more volatile fractions evaporate first. And any gummy residues will clog the carburetor too. So refer back to your African safari books, remember the guys with the chamois and the funnel? Filters water and junk out of gas. -- David Josephson / Josephson Engineering / San Jose CA / david@josephson.com From jdc@taligent.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:33 EDT 1994 Article: 129 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!taligent!kip-17.taligent.com!user From: jdc@taligent.com (Dave) Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Message-ID: Sender: usenet@taligent.com (More Bytes Than You Can Read) Organization: Banzai Institute References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 02:21:30 GMT Lines: 22 In article <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) wrote: > Are there any true survivalists out there? I should have known I'd look into this new newsgroup for the first time and see an Ahern. :) Next I expect I'll see a Dr. B.D. Clayton and my day will be complete. Yes, I've been something of a student of 'survivalism" for around a dozen years now. I look forward to paticipating in this group. However, everyone who posts here should be aware (if somehow thery're not already) that anyone can read these posts, including [insert favorite Big Brother group here].... [This mssg. will be emailed *and* posted to ensure Mr. Ahern receives it. I have one other rec. group I currently cannot post to directly, probably thanks to my newsfeed site, so this is something of a test to see if this post makes it to this group. Sorry for any perceived bandwidth waste.] Dave From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:34 EDT 1994 Article: 130 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:21:37 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35a3bh$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) (nobody@csua.berkeley.edu) wrote: : Anyone concerned about this _must_ educate himself about the use of : networks, encryption, and anonymity. A good first step is getting PGP : (available from ftp.csua.berkeley.edu:/pub/cypherpunks), installing it, and : making it a habit to use it. Another place to get info is : gopher://chaos.bsu.edu. And let's not forget about anonymous remailer when appropriate. :^) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:34 EDT 1994 Article: 131 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!obelisk!ahern From: ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: FBI Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:34:13 GMT Organization: The Mockle Group Lines: 18 Message-ID: <35a435$11l@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: obelisk.berkeley.edu Are the FBI, the National Guard, the military or other government agencies preparing tatical plans to combat citizens who resist or rebel against the government? Are they investigating groups? It seems like the Waco incident indicates that the government is investigating and infiltrating groups that leagally stockpile weapons. In a rebellion situation, which branch of the armed forces would be called upon to supress it? Is it ever concievable that the military could divide into opposing factions during a rebellion, or is the chain of command so strong that orders from the Commander in Cheif would never be disobeyed? I heard a reference on the radio to a study, Presidential Directive 13 or somthing like that, on the willingness of new military recruits to combat U.S. citizens if necessary, and that a high percentage of them said they would. From locasso@tis.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:35 EDT 1994 Article: 132 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Date: 15 Sep 1994 18:22:02 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35a3ca$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article hmv@lynx.unm.edu, rodneywa@triton.unm.edu (Rodney C. Ward) writes: > I read in a sierra club mountain conquering book, that a sign that > the clouds around you are about to discharge lightning is the metal (i.e. > zippers, icepicks) will begin to spark and crackle with static electricity. I guess I would caution that the converse is not true. Metal objects will not *necessarily* begin to spark and crackle before a nearby lightning strike. > Running steams are usually safe to drink from > unlike stale ponds which I also know from experience can only make things > worse. I don't think it's safe to assume that running water is free of bacteria, chemicals, etc. It looks cleaner and is more apetizing than stagnant water which is often disgusting to look at. But as far as which is safer, I believe it is random. Rosaria Locasso From joan@nature.Berkeley.EDU Fri Sep 16 13:25:36 EDT 1994 Article: 133 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!spool.mu.edu!agate!joan From: joan@nature.Berkeley.EDU (Joan M. Van Horn) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Gas mask (was Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS) Date: 16 Sep 1994 06:21:08 GMT Organization: U.C. Berkeley Lines: 31 Message-ID: <35bdgk$h7r@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: golden.berkeley.edu In article <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes: [deletions] ]> ]>* AIR (gas-masks, etc...I, personally, don't think this is critical) ]> ]>Anything else which is FUNDAMENTAL??? (KEEP IT SIMPLE, PLEASE!) ]> ]>...Comments/Additions? ]>=Frank= I didn't think gas-masks were desirable as emergency equipment until last summer. I wound up sitting with Amtrack on a sideline while waiting for the cloud from a leak at a chemical company to arrive. This leak shut down transport for hours, sent thousands to emergency rooms with breathing trouble, and had the rest of us listening to where the cloud was supposed to be heading. When the large earthquake hits here, or in some other disaster, who knows what will happen with the chemical companies, and factories nearby? While I would not have taken a gas mask on Amtrak (...before :-)) I'm interested in getting a few now for home and car. The only ones I've seen were really ratty. Does anyone have any suggestions? Would some of the pesticide cartridges you can buy at some hardware stores for dust masks be like, say one of those Israeli masks that are supposed to be good? Thanks for any info. Joan V From kenm123456@aol.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:37 EDT 1994 Article: 134 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: kenm123456@aol.com (KenM123456) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Date: 16 Sep 1994 02:13:06 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 22 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <35bd1i$hfe@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes: >IMHO, > Survival Equals = : > * Water > * Food > * Security (=guns & concealment & non-provocative attitude) > * Shelter >... In that order... Comments? >=Frank= I tend to think that one would want: (1) Weapons in order to last long enough to call for help using (2) Communications, and then enough (3) Shelter (clothing etc.) to last long enough to need (4) Water, so that one can last long enough to need (5) Food. Although that supposes the worst of all possible worlds, and your mileage may vary depending on your favorite scenarios. From lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:38 EDT 1994 Article: 135 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!uunet!psinntp!isc-newsserver!ritvax.isc.rit.edu!LSO8219 From: lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Message-ID: <1994Sep16.055132.13720@ultb.isc.rit.edu> Sender: news@ultb.isc.rit.edu (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: vaxa-eth.isc.rit.edu Reply-To: lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 05:51:32 GMT Lines: 1 Does 4 1/2 months hiking around the Utah desert count. I was in a survival program out there. From lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:39 EDT 1994 Article: 136 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!uunet!psinntp!isc-newsserver!ritvax.isc.rit.edu!LSO8219 From: lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Message-ID: <1994Sep16.055630.13852@ultb.isc.rit.edu> Sender: news@ultb.isc.rit.edu (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: vaxa-eth.isc.rit.edu Reply-To: lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 05:56:30 GMT Lines: 1 Does 4 1/2 months of hiking around the Utah desert count? I was in a survival program out there. From rfelix@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:40 EDT 1994 Article: 137 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!rfelix From: rfelix@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Message-ID: Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 06:04:24 GMT Lines: 30 In article <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> rodneywa@triton.unm.edu (Rodney C. Ward) writes: > Running steams are usually safe to drink from >unlike stale ponds which I also know from experience can only make things >worse. If you really want to protect your health, treat *all* water...As one book I have rad says " You never know if there isn't a dead animal 100 feet upstream from where you are"... Though most water is safe to drink if you boil it, like heat a rock >real hot and put it in your container that should kill most micros. You need to boil it or use tablets or a filter, dropping a hot rock in just isn't enough... >I have used water purification tablets and I don't remember any resulting >sickness. I heard juice from a lemon will also purify water. I wouldn't count on lemon juice to kill viruses or bacteria in water. Use a filter, tablets or boil it.... >by mourning dew will have collected on the stones ^^^^^^^ watch out for the mourning doo if you drink untreated water... :-) From tempcrow@io.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:41 EDT 1994 Article: 138 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!illuminati.io.com!tempcrow From: tempcrow@io.com (John L. Freiler) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Date: 15 Sep 1994 19:14:38 GMT Organization: Illuminati Online Lines: 16 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <35a6eu$91@illuminati.io.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Benjamin Johnson (bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu) wrote: : homosexuals in the "Christian" rightwing, such as: : Eustace Mullins, author of Secrets of the Federal Reserve, allegedly : arrested in New York state for sodomizing a young boy in the '50s. : James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not : an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. : Anyone know anything about this? I'd like to know. What does this have to do with survivalism? Am I missing something? Addmitidly, there are all kinds of people in all kinds of places. Just expect it and move on with business. -john From jdf7@po.cwru.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:42 EDT 1994 Article: 139 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!newsserver.jvnc.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!psuvax1!news.ecn.bgu.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!b61896.student.cwru.edu!user From: jdf7@po.cwru.edu (Jeremy Friesen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 15:39:29 -0500 Organization: Case Western Reserve University Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: b61896.student.cwru.edu In article <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) wrote: > Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications > in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as > constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? Unfortunatly, in a serious disaster (earthquake, comet collision, Nuke ware), internet access would more than likely be SERIOUSLY disrupted. If it did still function, then yes, it might prove useful for survivors to communicate. Jeremy Friesen _________________________________________________________________ J E R E M Y The J-Files F R I E S E N The Jeremy's Out There... _________________________________________________________________ From justice@MCS.COM Fri Sep 16 13:25:43 EDT 1994 Article: 140 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!not-for-mail From: justice@MCS.COM (Michael Justice) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 15 Sep 1994 23:02:59 -0500 Organization: Yet Another *#&%! MCS Subscriber. . . . Lines: 60 Distribution: na Message-ID: <35b5dj$1ej@Venus.mcs.com> References: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> <35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: venus.mcs.com In <35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu>, Kathleen Burton wrote: >i'd be specifically interested in finding out about living the 1800's >way. where can i find out more? books? or do you know anyplace that >would offer classes? or just trial and error? or find someone to >teach me? Rodale's, publishers of "Organic Gardening" magazine, have lots of useful books on no-pesticides gardening, herbs and their uses (medicine!), and other plant-related topics. Their magazine is also extremely useful IMHO. I would suggest the Foxfire books as a useful set of primers on all sorts of things. My personal favorite was the section on making and running a still -- as in "moonshine". Remember, alcohol is NOT just an intoxicant; it is a fantastic disinfectant, which (in a total breakdown) would be a good thing to have around for cleaning wounds. No more amoxycillin after a few years. . . . It's been too long since I looked at these. Another book, which I purchased recently from Lindsay Publications, is _Five_Acres_and_Independence:_A_Handbook_for_Small_Farm_Management_, by M. G. Kains (Dover Publications, Inc.). The original was published in 1935, to help non-farm folk learn to survive during the Great Depression (according to Lindsay's catalog). It was revised in 1940, and repub- lished in the 1970's (for the back-to-the-land movement, no doubt). Looks good so far, although I've only read bits and pieces of it. ISBN# 0-486-20974-1 Lindsay has a lot of interesting-sounding books, except that they tend to be about industrial technology, like how to run a Corliss steam engine -- but you've got to get a Corliss steam engine before you can do much with the book. :-/ Still, there's the occasional "find", like the fish farming book, or this 5A&I one. If anyone's interested, I can try to find their last catalog and post their address. Speaking of steam :-) I'd include WIND POWER and even SOLAR POWER on the list. 1800's technology is great, if you want to break your back twenty hours a day. I'd rather have electric lights for the winter, solar battery rechargers for radio (both broadcasting and listening), and hey -- even a steam-powered tractor, or luxury of luxuries, a steam-powered automobile. Greenfield Village, a museum started by Henry Ford out near Dearborn, Michigan, has a lot of interesting steam exhibits, and lots of other very interesting history-of-technology exhibits, some of which would be useful to those who don't want to live entirely in the 1800's. "The Home Shop Machinist" (published bimonthly) is a good source for useful tools and even small steam engines. They started a series on making your own rifle action, starting from steel bar stock, in May. Now I'm really off on a tangent, so I shall halt for the night. :-) >Kathleen >burton@lclark.edu -- Michael. -- Michael A Justice|"Once upon a time in this country, some men composed a fairy justice@mcs.com | tale and called it the Bill of Rights. It said something Libertarian Party| quaint about the right[s] of the people...."--Anson Guthrie NRA/ILA/ISRA/TCA | PGP 2.3a/2.6 PUBLIC KEY available: finger justice@mcs.com From rja@batcomfs.Eng.Sun.COM Fri Sep 16 13:25:43 EDT 1994 Article: 141 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!batcomfs!rja From: rja@batcomfs.Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 16 Sep 1994 03:33:21 GMT Organization: Sun Lines: 52 Message-ID: <35b3m1$hks@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <1994Sep16.022330.29406@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article <1994Sep16.022330.29406@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) writes: +In <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu writes: +> for use in a long-term "rebellion" type of open warfare? Is something +> like the U.S. Army's two-man shelter halves a good investment or should +> I simply be content with a good water-repellent sleeping bag which I +> can roll up into my pack harness? + +YUCK! The shelter halves make a shelter that is drafty and leaky. Not to +mention somewhat heavy and a bitch to set up in the dark. I've been fortunate enough to have been shown how to construct a very effective shelter out of a 1 3/4 lb. nylon net hammock, and a US military poncho. Inside the shelter you put a sleeping pad, and on top of that you put your sleeping bag. The warmth of the system can be augmented by adding a space blanket and/or US military poncho liner between the hammock and sleeping pad. Properly done, this gives you a shelter that is wind resistant, rain resistant, and tactical. I've used this camping in the Ventana wilderness area and Yosemite, and it's great. It gets you up off the ground, away from the wet, and where you can see what's coming. You could actually pitch your hammock up in a tree in a truly tactical situation.... To do this, pitch the hammock between a couple of trees. Then take your poncho and tie it between the trees via two, *diagonal* ends. Guy the remaining two poncho corners down and out at 45 degrees. Voila. This shelter is only slightly lighter than a super-light tent, and about the same as a bivy sack, but The poncho is a multi-purpose piece of equipment, and can be made into a bunch of other shelters, a litter, etc. This method was taught to me by a man who claimed it's the current method of sleeping by US Special Forces in jungles/forests. The hammock rolls up into a ball that fits in two palms, as does the poncho. The poncho liner is slightly more bulky, but the whole system could pack into a day pack. There is also a smaller, less comfortable, hammock that's about the size of an orange. There is also a small book which explains about two dozen differnet things to use hammocks for, such as gun rests, fish nets, camoflauge, etc. I was so impressed with this stuff that I started a small business to sell this and other useful survival things. See my earlier advert. -- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Fri Sep 16 13:25:44 EDT 1994 Article: 142 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 16 Sep 1994 04:08:46 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35b5oe$3sb$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com> References: > but don't forget packet BBS. if you are not familiar with > this,this is ham radio based (digital) bbs network. if you I would like to hear more from you about packet radio. What licensing is involved, costs of equipment, power requirements, etc. etc. Also, info on range, data throughput rates, reliability, security, etc. I also believe packet radio is "the way to go", and I need more info. -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Those that beat guns into plows will plow for those that don't. From aq195@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Sep 16 13:25:45 EDT 1994 Article: 143 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!convex!convex!arco!news.utdallas.edu!corpgate!bnrgate!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!aq195 From: aq195@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (W. Joseph Cooklin) Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 07:36:53 GMT Lines: 6 Where does one get a crystal radio? Bill -- Joseph Cooklin From mikescase@aol.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:46 EDT 1994 Article: 144 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: mikescase@aol.com (MikeSCase) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Shelf life of foods Date: 16 Sep 1994 00:15:06 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 9 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <35b64a$fm1@newsbf01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com Just a quick note, does anyone know what the average shelf life of some of the following off-the-shelf foods are? What method of storing.. air-tight container, etc. rice pasta dried beans and other legumes Thanks...... From haacm024@huey.csun.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:47 EDT 1994 Article: 145 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!haacm024 From: haacm024@huey.csun.edu (Duane Smeckert) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is meant by Light Aircraft Crew Date: 16 Sep 1994 04:26:56 GMT Organization: Calstate University Northridge Lines: 15 Message-ID: <35b6qg$nin@nic-nac.CSU.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: huey.csun.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Light aircraft are generally single engine propeller driven fixed wing aircraft. There is an actual limit but I don't have my references handy. Duane Sean Miller (seanm@core.rose.hp.com) wrote: > In the description for misc.survivalism "light aircraft crew" was mentioned. > Does this mean maintaining a personal ultralight type aircraft for transporta- > tion during some kind of disaster? > Sean Miller > From TC23774@Eli.Lilly Fri Sep 16 13:25:48 EDT 1994 Article: 146 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!mozo.cc.purdue.edu!inet.d48.lilly.com!Kenneth.Smith Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: FOR SALE: MRE'S Message-ID: <1994Sep16.081143.2998@inet.d48.lilly.com> From: TC23774@Eli.Lilly (Kenneth E. Smith) Date: 16 Sep 94 08:11:42 EST Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[8115] References: Distribution: world Organization: Eli Lilly & Co. Nntp-Posting-Host: snuffy.d51.lilly.com X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0@inet.d48.lilly.com. Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name. Lines: 19 In article jeffrey_p_wendt@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov (Jeffrey P Wendt) writes: > I will be getting some cases in very soon, and they will be priced as follows: > > Case of 12 meals without heaters: $35.00 > with heaters: $40.00 > > Drop me a line if interested. > > Jeff > > Jeff, I would be very interested in several cases of the MRE's. > How do I go about getting in touch with you about these? > > Thanks > Kenneth Smith From curt@access1.digex.net Fri Sep 16 13:25:48 EDT 1994 Article: 147 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: curt@access1.digex.net (curt williams) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: FBI (THIS IS *NOT* TALK.POLITICS.GUNS!!!) Date: 15 Sep 1994 23:34:31 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 17 Message-ID: <35b3o7$52m@access1.digex.net> References: <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net In article <35a623$fvi@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank Langham wrote: >P.S. I am totally sympathetic and interested in your opinions and point >of view... I just don't want to have to wade through a bunch of crap to >find valuable technical info regarding preparedness...thanks, really! Perhaps you can survive better on the internet by learning to use a news reader capable of displaying the subject line. Then you can decide whether to read an article or not. If I read every article in every news group I subscribe to-- I'd soon be doing nothing else. You'll save yourself not only time but also aggrivation by taking my suggestion and ignoring things which in your opinion are misplaced or irrelevant. IMHO. From curt@access1.digex.net Fri Sep 16 13:25:49 EDT 1994 Article: 148 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: curt@access1.digex.net (curt williams) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 15 Sep 1994 23:39:19 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 8 Message-ID: <35b417$5cd@access1.digex.net> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net In article <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>, Aaron Dial wrote: >If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, >and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most Remington 870 12 guage shotgun or M1 Garand rifle in .30-06 From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:50 EDT 1994 Article: 149 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: crystal radio Date: 16 Sep 1994 14:44:57 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 11 Message-ID: <35cb19$7vn@uudell.us.dell.com> References: <1994Sep16.030828.17688@cnsvax.uwec.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 In article <1994Sep16.030828.17688@cnsvax.uwec.edu>, cookliwj@cnsvax.uwec.edu says: > >I have heard of crystal radio sets and would like to find out more about them, >anyone have any info? > >Bill ******************************************************* Radio Shack has kits and books ... you dont actually need a crystal, either. There are lots of very simple designs that work very well. Most freshman texts on history of Radio have schematics and almost any electronics projects book will have a few design choices as well. From burton@sun.lclark.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:51 EDT 1994 Article: 150 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.clark.edu!sun.lclark.edu!sun.lclark.edu!not-for-mail From: burton@sun.lclark.edu (Kathleen Burton) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 15 Sep 1994 12:44:05 -0700 Organization: Lewis and Clark College, Portland OR Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu> References: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sun.lclark.edu thanks for the info on the basics of survivalism. i'd be specifically interested in finding out about living the 1800's way. where can i find out more? books? or do you know anyplace that would offer classes? or just trial and error? or find someone to teach me? -- ------------------------------- Kathleen burton@lclark.edu From ctdonath@mothra.syr.EDU Fri Sep 16 13:25:52 EDT 1994 Article: 151 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!newstand.syr.edu!ctdonath From: ctdonath@mothra.syr.EDU (Carl T. Donath) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:10:40 GMT Organization: Syracuse University Lines: 14 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a6o3$4bl@newkodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.syr.edu In-reply-to: mark@newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM's message of 15 Sep 1994 15:19:31 -0400 In article <35a6o3$4bl@newkodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> mark@newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM (KP) writes: I have never fired when using the viewer, but I was interested in trying it in as many ways as possible. Know how night-vision behaves with bright lights _before_ you try it while shooting. Remember, the end of a gun creates a _bright_ flash - make sure the 'scope won't magnify it by 30,000 times (not good for the eyes). Fortunately, some handle this. -- __________/ ctdonath@rodan.acs.syr.edu Carl T Donath \________________ / Why do people assume that this is the first time things have ever \ / been this way and things will stay this way forever? \ From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:53 EDT 1994 Article: 152 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Magnetic Pole Navigation Date: 16 Sep 1994 14:59:49 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 7 Message-ID: <35cbt5$7vn@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 Perhaps a Marine Sextant? ... BTW, a *pocket* GPS (Global Positioning System) satellite rig, complete with smarts that will tell which way back to camp and how far, will cost you $400 (no shit: it comes in cammo!) =Frank= From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Fri Sep 16 13:25:54 EDT 1994 Article: 153 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 11:47 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 39 Distribution: world Message-ID: <16SEP199411475168@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo5.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu>, dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (STEPHENSON) writes... > > >Hello, a girl from my church has these kooky relatives >(I say kooky, but in light of recent events...maybe not) >who are christian survivalists and they have guns and other >stuff stocked up. One of my friends got a Mak-90(sp?) >assault rifle with a couple of 30 shot banana clips. >Having the Mak-90 with the clips really won't do him much >good, though.He only has about 20 bullets for it. > >These kinds of things and this group made me think: >Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >of some sort? Survivalism means staying alive. In some scenarios this means having the need for defensive physical action. But not in all of them. And certainly there is rarely the need for stockpiling weapons. >I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have >food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and >that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things >you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the >survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. In that case, as long as all your potential combatants are armed then the only thing you might consider stockpiling is ammunition. In a hypothetical family unit I would suggest a reliable 12 guage, a high-powered rifle (which both double as hunting equipment) and perhaps a couple of handguns. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Fri Sep 16 13:25:54 EDT 1994 Article: 154 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Date: 16 Sep 1994 11:53 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 39 Distribution: world Message-ID: <16SEP199411535986@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo5.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com>, Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes... >IMHO, > > Survival Equals = : > > * Water > > * Food > > * Security (=guns & concealment & non-provocative attitude) > > * Shelter > >.... In that order... Comments? I would disagree. How about: Security. (If you are not physically dafe, then it doesn't matter if you're without food or water) This is also not something which means firepower to me. I would rather remove myself from the location/area. Part of a survival preparation plan would be transport to a "safe" location. Water. Without it you only have days. Either you planned and have it stored or you better find it. Shelter. This is similar to security. You can tighten your belt for weeks with water, but one cold night could be hypothermia and death. This also greatly improves morale. Food. Important, but bottom of this list. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From pushkin@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:55 EDT 1994 Article: 155 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!pushkin From: pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) Subject: Knives for Wilderness Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 07:15:22 GMT Lines: 14 I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. The knives don't have to have all of the characteristics. These could be separate knives. At the last show I saw a realy nice one, it had a nylon chord wrapped handle, the guard was detachable so it could be used on a stick. Thanks - Gary - -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- - US Congress regarding its constituency ... or was it Roger Waters? - "if I had my way I'd have all of them SHOT!" ==================================================================== From gbernath@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Fri Sep 16 13:25:56 EDT 1994 Article: 156 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!pacbell.com!att-out!oucsace!gbernath From: gbernath@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Gregory Bernath) Subject: Re: Magnetic Pole Navigation Message-ID: Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens References: <35cbt5$7vn@uudell.us.dell.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:49:48 GMT Lines: 25 In article <35cbt5$7vn@uudell.us.dell.com> Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes: >Perhaps a Marine Sextant? ... >BTW, a *pocket* GPS (Global Positioning System) satellite rig, >complete with smarts that will tell which way back to camp and how far, >will cost you $400 (no shit: it comes in cammo!) Unfortunately, as you get close to the North or South pole, GPS performance gets worse. The GPS satellite orbits are inclined 55 degrees with respect to the equator, while the poles are 90 degrees away. (These are not geostationary satellites; their postion with respect to earth is constantly changing). So at high latitudes, there aren't enough satellites visible most of the time (you need 4 satellite signals for a position fix). Around the latitude of the magnetic poles, GPS would be erratic. It would work occasionally when a favorable arrangement of satellites happened to come together, but usually it would not function. Of course, in the mid-latitudes it works great, provided that the satellites are functioning. Whether the satellites would be functioning during a survival situation is a whole different question. -- Greg Bernath gbernath@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 13:25:57 EDT 1994 Article: 157 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: THREAT IDENTIFICATION (was "Gas Mask") Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <35bdgk$h7r@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:13:01 GMT Lines: 53 Again, I want to assert that for the purposes of planning to "survive" something, you have to identify what it is you want to survive. When you ask about whether the organic vapor cartridges for the breathers available at the hardware store "are supposed to be good", you need to consider "good for what?" If you live near a chemical plant, find out what chemicals they have there. Learn to read the OSHA four-part square chemical warning labels. Learn to read the codes on Semi-trailer truck tankers (for example "1203" is gasoline, I think). I get the impression that you are asking whether there is any sort of air filtration mask that will protect you from anything in the air, and there isn't. Suppose you are in your car and collide with a truck carrying liquid nitrogen. The tank breaks open, and you are trapped in your car. Nitrogen gas envelops your car and you begin to breath it in. This will not hurt you immediately, but the nitrogen will begin to affix itself to the hemoglobin (or some such thing) in your blood, preventing your blood cells from carrying oxygen around in your body, so after a certain amount of time, you will suffocate, even if you can make it out to "good" air. There is no filter available commercially (that I have ever heard of) that will filter out the nitrogen you breath. This is just one (admittedly unlikely) scenario. You would need a SCUBA tank, and some really warm clothes to survive this scenario! On the other hand, you mentioned a leak at a chemical plant. Those cartridges at the hardware store protect your lungs from a whole slew of organic vapors. There are different cartridges for different kinds of chemicals. You will need to read up a bit on what sorts of chemicals are used in industry (try OSHA) and then read up on the different kinds of protection commercially available. Try industrial supply catalogs, maybe available at your local library. With this knowledge, you might assemble a kit with several different types of cartridges that will protect your lungs from different kinds of chemicals. throw in a rubber suit and a full face mask and gloves, and you can survive all sorts of chemical hazards. Once you've got the suit, gloves and face mask, an air tank is the logical way to go. How serious are you? How much money do you have to spend? How significant is the threat, really? A strategy of avoidance might be cheaper *and* more effective. If you can identify exactly what sorts of things you want to protect yourself from, you can then address (or ask for advice on how to develop) strategies of defense. Developing a logical, thorough regimen of problem solving skills is much more important to your overall survival strategy than collecting disorganized, anecdotal tips scraped together randomly--no matter how many such tips you can accumulate. Good Luck! rdh From purtilo@cs.umd.edu Fri Sep 16 20:49:42 EDT 1994 Article: 158 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!paladin.american.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!cs.umd.edu!not-for-mail From: purtilo@cs.umd.edu (Jim Purtilo) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Archival Volunteers Date: 16 Sep 1994 13:41:10 -0400 Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <35clbm$ft4@xring.cs.umd.edu> References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> <35a3ca$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xring.cs.umd.edu Keywords: safe water bacteria streams ponds In article rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: #I like not having a moderator, but perhaps some of us could #voluteer to collect and collate the information on this newsgroup? If the group here can more or less agree on informational stuff that should be made available to people widely, then I'll pony up the space on the net and an ftp site (modulo not running short of resources for research, etc etc, as always...) I don't have a lot of free time to do the synthesis, structuring, preening, cleaning etc, as other selfless volunteers have done for, say, the faq for rec.guns, but one way we could do this is for me to set up a mail alias here, and once group has more or less signed off on some material (who knows how to measure this) then someone can blast it off to the mail address which I can mechanically see gets posted. Or whatever .... From dlaurant@class.class.org Fri Sep 16 20:49:43 EDT 1994 Article: 159 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!rosebud.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!class.class.org!dlaurant From: dlaurant@class.class.org (San Joaquin Valley Library System) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Weapons for food & protection Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:44:24 GMT Organization: C.L.A.S.S. Cooperative Library Agency for Systems and Services Lines: 61 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <35clho$jr4@news.cerf.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: class.class.org Fair warning -- this posting deals with survival from military, political or natural disasters, not from being stranded in the wilderness. I don't style myself a survival guru, so I hope readers will post contrary views to my opinions where they disagree. Here goes... I think practical survivalists should concentrate foremost on avoiding people troubles. Unfortunately, a successful survivor will, by definition, have things that others will kill to possess in difficult times: food, water, shelter, tools and so on. So unless one can bug out with sufficient gear in his pack to survive while keeping perpetually on the move, survival plans will need to include defensive measures. Consider first whether an exodus from an urban to rural area will be necessary. Will you be attempting this on your own, or in a small group of family/friends? Have you cached long-term necessities at your destination, or will you be living out of a backpack for awhile? Have you investigated the type of cover available along your planned escape route, in all seasons? The thing to remember is that travel during a major crisis is potentially the most dangerous short-term problem facing survivors, and unless you can put together an armored convoy, it would be wisest to maintain a low profile and move quickly, preferably before a general panic sets in. Include a backpack in your vehicle in case you have to finish the trip on foot. Choose clothing and other gear that is sturdy but looks cheap, since a hiker resembling a homeless wanderer will not attract as much notice as one clad by Armani and Gucci. For travel, the most useful weapon is a high-capacity semiautomatic pistol of 9mm or larger caliber, with a couple spare magazines and one or two boxes of ammo. If traveling in a group, one member might carry a high-powered handgun of the TC Contender or Remington XP100 ilk for accurate, long-range fire. In either case, the weapon should be carried concealed but handy; openly carrying a longarm might encourage an ambush rather than deter it, since an observer will know you have at least one possession worth fighting for. Assuming you make it to your prepared hideout (or that you never needed to leave it) before things go nuts, there are a variety of weapons that can be successfully employed for defensive purposes. I won't coment on this except to say that at least one scoped, high-powered rifle (say, in .308 NATO) should be included in any arsenal in case long-range fire should be required. For hunting purposes, consider the crossbow and airgun as useful auxillary weapons. Both are short-range propositions, but their relative silence could be of great advantage at times. In addition, if firearm ammunition runs low, replacement crossbow bolts can be made from wood with simple hand tools, strings from linen or hemp fiber. For general information on crossbows, see my FAQ in alt.archery. Airgun pellets can be had fairly cheaply and take up little storage space. If you're willing to pay the extra cost, a round ball lead casting mould can be custom made in air rifle calibers; this would permit recycling the lead pellets removed from small game. - Dave -- Dave DeLaurant Shooter of crossbows, firearms and airguns San Joaquin Valley Lover of women, cats, hunting and foreign cuisine Information Service Mender of books, Rider of bicycles, Reader of English dlaurant@class.org Collector of modern military helmets & body armor From cookliwj@cnsvax.uwec.edu Fri Sep 16 20:49:44 EDT 1994 Article: 160 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!uwec.edu!cookliwj From: cookliwj@cnsvax.uwec.edu Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: crystal radio Message-ID: <1994Sep16.030828.17688@cnsvax.uwec.edu> Date: 16 Sep 94 03:08:28 -0600 Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire Lines: 4 I have heard of crystal radio sets and would like to find out more about them, anyone have any info? Bill From sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Fri Sep 16 20:49:45 EDT 1994 Article: 161 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!sybok From: sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:27:06 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 5 Message-ID: <35co1q$r3a@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.055132.13720@ultb.isc.rit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: m1-142-6.mit.edu In article <1994Sep16.055132.13720@ultb.isc.rit.edu> lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes: >Does 4 1/2 months hiking around the Utah desert count. I was in a survival >program out there. Cool. What did you learn? From bglover@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 20:49:46 EDT 1994 Article: 162 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!uop!csus.edu!netcom.com!bglover From: bglover@netcom.com (William Glover) Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:01:13 GMT Lines: 24 Alex Wildsmith (wildsmit@netcom.com) wrote: : Aaron Dial wrote: : : If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, : : and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most : : versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought : : this would be an interesting topic of conversation. A M1A would do the trick. Accurate enough for hunting, reliable defense, good parts availability and serviceability, rugged and dependable. Second choice M1 garand. But I would likely take a 357 as well. A pistol if needed says the quarry is to close for comfort in the wilderness. Pistols are for personal defense, rifles for surviving. Given a choice, I would never attack or hunt anything with a pistol, unless I was doing it purely for sport and eating or living did not depend on the outcome. Just my 2 cents... ====================================================== "It is a crime Bill --- Legislation by lies" bglover@netcom.com ====================================================== From kcj@dptspd.sat.datapoint.com Fri Sep 16 20:49:48 EDT 1994 Article: 163 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!dptspd!kcj From: kcj@dptspd.sat.datapoint.com (Kevin Jones) Subject: Liberty Organization: Datapoint Corporation, San Antonio, TX Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:33:59 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 310 Permission is granted to reproduce this, unedited for content, in any media. The thoughts and words expressed below represent and are associated with no one but myself. Preface I will not respond to mail or followups in regard to the following post, but I promise to read every word, approving or disapproving. You will find the following stories very offensive. That is my fault. I have tried to express these thoughts dozens of times. Each time, they come out offensive. If you find the third story more offensive than the first two, I would ask that you think very long and hard about it. (It never hurts to ask.) If you read the words and ignore the theme, you are wasting your time, for the stories have no merit beyond their common theme. If you think the following has no relavence to this news group, please, think again. "For in what human endeavor is liberty not topical?" "No answers follow, only questions." * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * He Who Walks The allotment of life is as a bag of salt. Most take only a single grain and never taste the flavor. I have taken but a modest sprinkling from that bag and I crave more. I was at the crucifixion. I was at a thousand crucifixions, but I was also at THE crucifixion. Some say my long life was punishment for some wrong I committed that day, but no. My years already numbered two scores of scores of scores on the day that fine man died. I committed no crimes that day. At one point, I held his hand to engender comfort. And indeed, I was comforted. I am not immortal. I have never been shot in the head or stabbed in the heart. I suspect that those would be the end of me. I feel pain, perhaps more keenly than most. I bleed, to some extent. I get sick on rare occasion, but soon I am better. I have seen all of Man. I know what he is. I was there when the Krins burned the Eamites. I held the hand of Rep, a Krin, shortly before they came and took her. They burned her babies too. I watched as the fires burned. I was there when the Egyptians enslaved the Jews, burning many because of words they spoke. As was my custom, where possible, I held the hand of Seth before they came and took him. I watched as the fires burned. I was there when the Nubians enslaved the Egyptians, burning many because of words they spoke. As was my custom, where possible, I held the hand of Anktot before they came and took her. I watched as the fires burned. I was there when the three came to the city of Sodom. They set fires before each of the three gates. The people of Sodom were inventive. They used a fertilizer that they called the Salt of Mammon. They stored it in their cities. It was ammonium nitrate. I watched as the fires burned. I was there when they burned Rachel. Her crime was a few minutes work on the Sabbath. I watched as the fires burned. I was there when Romans burned the Christians. I was there when the Christians burned the pagans, when the catholics burned the protestants, when the protestants burned the catholics, when the protestants burned the witches, when the catholics burned the witches. I watched as the fires burned. I was there when the Whites burned the Blacks, when the heterosexuals burned the homosexuals, and yet again, when protestants burned the Jews. I watched as the fires burned. I was there at Bosnia and Waco. I watched as the fires burned. North Carolina is the place where I will die. It was my home for a few short years. I would, as was my custom, shed my clothes and walk its woods hour upon hour into the night. They arrested me for this. I laughed at their petty imagined crimes. I laughed at the paltry sum of years to which I was sentenced. In the blink of an eye, I was free. I made a brief trip to Waco, and I returned to my North Carolina home. The night I returned, I again shed my clothes and roamed free. They waited for me. The charge was different this time, for two days before, a girl had been raped and killed, just ten miles from my home. I was the only know "sex offender" in the area. "Justice" was swift and sure. Will 10,000 volts be enough to ignite my skin? I will draw no more grains of salt from the bag of life. For tonight, I hold my own hand, and I will watch as the fires burn. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * And To My Children, Two Liters of Air We were nearing the low point of our orbit. The scenery flashing by was just "Too Yar For Endurance". I was listening to the Adapta-teacher drone on about quantum electro-dynamics as we passed between two high mountains above the airless second moon of Rethbla seven. Truly spaced! We skimmed the surface, passing just 40 meters above the ground before we started our accent. The simulation was even better than it would have been in real life. There was no space suit to detract from the experience. It almost compensated for the utter tedium of today's lecture. I was becoming convinced that were trying to bore us today. Suddenly we were no longer in orbit, but at the bottom of some unknown sea. It was pitch black except for the bio-luminescence of a plethora of sea creature and the eerie glow emanating from each of us. Our teacher usually used such radical transitions in scenery to preface a change in subject. She silenced the Adapta-teacher. "I would like to discuss The Day of Agony", she began. Several of us groaned aloud. Although this was the first time that the subject had been brought up in school, all of us knew the story, more or less. "The Oshman was one of the smaller colony ships, less than a billion passengers. It had been traveling for almost ten generations and it had been plagued with technical problems for most of the flight. At several times, the survival of the ship had been in question. As the ship deteriorated, the social cohesion within the ship deteriorated as well." "The name of The Cutter was Svolt Walsh. He had led a normal life aboard the ship for sixty years. It was then that he developed what was then called Brid's Syndrome. It would be renamed to Walsh Syndrome for a time, but today we know it as Mei's syndrome". Well there was something interesting! I hadn't know that the same disease that had claimed Walsh was the disease that warped the brain of Kim Yon Mei, allowing her to lead the way to our understanding of the nature of space and time. Today might not be a total waste after all! She continued, "In his sixtieth year, The Cutter earned his name. He linked into an outgoing full-sense Public Access channel, sat down, put a tourniquet around his left leg and proceeded to hack off half of his leg with an axe. He brought the severed limb to his mouth and made a substantial meal of it. He announced his intention to consume the other leg, on Public Access, three days hence." With increasing distress our teacher told the rest of the story, "The same mental illness that caused his strange behavior also caused him to refuse treatment for the illness. A convocation of the passengers was called to see if there were any options. All but a tiny fraction of the adults linked into the convocation. It lasted for seven hours. We don't know what went wrong or how it happened, but we do know the results of that meeting. Fifty seven percent voted that The Cutter would be allowed to remove and eat his leg, but he would not be allowed to do so on Public Access." Our teacher almost wept as she spoke the following words, "His use of Public Access was to be restricted solely based on the content of what he was to present." Now there were tears in her eyes, "The restriction was enforced. Those who objected to this violation of rights had no means to redress the wrong. A man by the name of Milan Greene was the first to go. Without a space suit, he entered an egress port and opened it to the vacuum of inter-stellar space. In the days that followed 160,000 souls followed him into the void. This was before FTL communication, so word of these events took several centuries to reach the other side of the human frontier. By that time, the tradition of the Day of Agony was well established. At its peak, ten trillion souls spaced themselves on a single day. On each thousand-day anniversary of that first Day of Agony, billions upon billions book passage into space, never to return. Forty thousand anniversaries later, the number that choose this death are down to less than a trillion, out of the three quintillion humans that inhabit the universe. Most carry a sign that reads 'That it should not happen again'". Che spoke up and announced that those that space themselves were heroes to freedom. The teacher praised his freedom of expression. John declared that they were just fools dieing unnecessary deaths. The teacher praised his freedom of expression. I stood, and with a perfectly straight face, announced that curtailment of freedoms wasn't such a bad thing anyway. There was dead silence for several seconds and then the whole class broke up laughing. The teacher, putting on the best look of seriousness that she could muster, praised my freedom of expression. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Pit As the song came to its resounding conclusion, the congregation gave praise to God, as was their custom. The leader of the congregation stepped to the podium and complimented the chorus and then continued with his prepared text. After a time, he called a family from the pews and introduced the woman who stepped before the podium. The woman said, "This is is my daughter Esmirelda and she would like to tell you of an event that took place yesterday", and she stepped aside. Esmirelda, an eight year old girl, lowered a small platform attached to the podium and stepped up onto it. She smiled at the assemblage of people and they, each and every one, smiled back. She spoke quietly, but the sound system brought her voice to each of the listeners, "I was at the park yesterday, playing with my friends. A thin old man walked into the park, pulling a large cart with a box on it. He pulled the cart over to the area by the trees at the edge of the park. He laid a large tarp down on the ground and unfolded it. Next he opened the box and lifted out a large dead dog. Several of my friends had been watching the man, but they looked away then because they did not want to see the dead dog. I'm not sure why I kept watching." She continued, "I watched as he laid the dog carefully on the tarp. He then took off all his clothes and folded them neatly and laid them on the cart. He laid down on the tarp and started having anal sex with the dead male dog. I decided to walk over because I thought something must be wrong with the man and I thought that maybe I could help him." She wrinkled her nose in a memory of disgust, "When I got about a meter from the man and the dog, I suddenly smelled this awful smell and at the same time I started to hear the man making loud noises. I hadn't been able to hear him before. I asked the man if he would like me to call the mind-healers, but he said that he did not need them. He said that his dog had died of old age, 10 days ago and that he had buried him, but that morning, he had woken up and known that he needed to dig his dog up and do what he was doing now." A bit more quietly, looking at her mother for encouragement, she continued, "I asked him if the thought maybe he might spread disease by what he was doing, but he said no. He had had the dog irradiated and no germs remained on or in the dog. I mentioned that that the dog still smelled awful. He smiled kindly at me and he told me that he had a scent and sonic damper active. He pointed to a box on the tarp. He explained that if I hadn't moved that close that I would not have smelled the dog or heard his noises." "I still thought that there must be something wrong with the man, even though he didn't want the mind-healers. All I could think to do was reach out an stroke his hair. I knew that it makes me feel better when my mom strokes my hair when I feel bad. He continued to have sex with the dog as I stroked his hair. He made a loud noise and he took out a large knife. He stabbed the dead dog in the head and belly and then he rubbed the guts and filth from the dog on his naked body." "He laid quietly for about a minute and then got up and used a sonic cleaner to remove all the filth from his body. He rolled the dog up in the tarp and put the whole thing back in the box. He put his clothes back on and started to pull the cart away. I asked him if there was anything I could do to help him, because I was still worried for him. He smiled and told me no. He said he was happy." The congregation was very surprised at hearing this story, but they praised the child and congratulated her on her wisdom. They continued with their worship. Just outside the door, sat a thin old man, listening to every word. He smiled. It was over at last. The fruit of the tree of knowledge had at last been digested. Even the last rock-hard pit had been consumed. Intolerance, the sin that comes from an incomplete knowledge of good and evil, had finally been expunged from the Soul of Man. The man and his brother, the dog, ascended into the sky. He barely noticed the difference as he passed from this world to the next. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The core of these stories are the best part of my soul. My regards to the net. line 309 From kmann@uoguelph.ca Fri Sep 16 20:49:49 EDT 1994 Article: 164 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca!herman.cs.uoguelph.ca!kmann From: kmann@uoguelph.ca (Kevin Mann) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: SHELF LIFE &/OR HYDROPONICS FAQ Date: 16 Sep 1994 15:25:16 GMT Organization: University of Guelph Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35cdcs$3a4@nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: herman.cs.uoguelph.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I can't seem to get off on the right foot when wanting to research shelf life information pertaining to long-term food storage. Any ideas? Any specific "mainstream" books or periodicals you know of that discuss the topic at length? Perhaps Gov./Mil. documents? Also ... I came up with an idea of using HYDROPONICS augmented with artificial lighting as a means of water storage/renewable food source for an extended "storm," but this has also left me pondering where to begin research. I have heard of a store in the Hamilton, ON, CAN. area that specializes in hydroponics; (a popular idea set upon by homegrown marijuana enthusiasts) that's about as far as I have gotten. I hope this becomes a topic of frequent discussion that would include subtopics such as maintenance of and perhaps say, CBN protection of such storage facilities. Hello World! :) K. P.S. I have yet to figure out how my system will let me respond to a thread, rather than just create another post on the same topic, so please excuse any repetitions I may create. From bglover@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 20:49:49 EDT 1994 Article: 165 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!bglover From: bglover@netcom.com (William Glover) Subject: Re: Various Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35adub$1e2@news.service.uci.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:10:49 GMT Lines: 41 131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 (rdh@arriva.dr.att.com) wrote: : despite my previous post, I have to agree with Devin Murphy. : in the future, as telecommunications becomes more distributed, : the internet may take on more importance during an "apocalypse" : type situation, but for now, the computer would be just more : to carry. : I still maintain, thought, that during a temporary thing like : a hurricane, earthquake, or localized riot, the net would be : very useful, and it might serve us to examine where it would : be useful and where it would be a waste of time. In a hurricane, in the affected area, a radio is likely the only thing that would do any good. Been there, done that...no power, no house, no road, no car. Batteries and radio in a well built bunker room is the only help. Look at the pictures of South FL and Andrew. For days no-one who was not in an aircraft went anywhere. Earthquake...quite different. If the building you are in does not fall on you, ours did not in the last big one, then the net is of spotty value to the affected areas. Again radio is best of all in the immediate area. Outside of the affected area, then it is great to collect and move information and health and welfare messages. Radio in/out of the immediate affected area, the net for other places. Radio is the "HARDEST EMERGECY ASSET" there is. Everyone should have at least a good AM/FM with batteries. Portable is desired. Cars sometimes don't work, so make it a separate unit. Two way FM is next best. Join the ham radio ranks. Scanners are next. HF is best for the in/out loop from the affected area, but can be more difficult to operate and draw more power. Look at Haiti...they are dropping AM/FM radios not computers for the people to use. ====================================================== "It is a crime Bill --- Legislation by lies" bglover@netcom.com ====================================================== From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Fri Sep 16 20:49:50 EDT 1994 Article: 166 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Remember Koubaton? Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:19:44 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 39 Message-ID: <35cnk0$kql@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35cjjn$rf8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article rf8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu, PA writes: + + I am interested in getting some info on a martial art technique known +as "Koubaton" (I think that's how it's spelled). It uses a small baton, +about 5- 6" in length. I remember that some police dept.'s were training +their officers in the use of these batons. Does anyone know were I might +find some info (book, magazine, etc.) on this thing? It's "Kubotan", after the inventor, Tak Kubota. He designed the moves to originally work with a pen, but pens weren't strong enough to take the stress so he designed the kubotan. I have one, and I also have an ASP keychain min-baton which doubles as a kubotan, and I no longer carry either. Check martial arts stores for books on using them, then carefully practice with someone at home. While the ideas behind using it (i.e. joint locks & pressure points) are valid, the thing is a pain to carry around in your pocket and it's strictly a limited use defensive weapon, by which I mean you really have to use it in complete surprise to make it work well (unless you're Mr. Kubota of course). The best thing about it is that if it's on your keychain you probably already have it in your hand when you're likely to be attacked. Kubota is a master martial artist, but he has a tendency to produce unusual weapons and hype them. He's also invented a variant of the nunchaku which he sells to cops. Cops love new gimmicks. Unfortunately people buy the weapons w/out the necessary organised training courses and figure they're ready to take on all comers. You have to understand the limitations of any weapon.. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Fri Sep 16 20:49:51 EDT 1994 Article: 167 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 16 Sep 1994 14:55:41 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 23 Message-ID: <35cpnd$84@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article , William Glover wrote: > >A M1A would do the trick. Accurate enough for hunting, reliable >defense, good parts availability and serviceability, rugged and >dependable. Second choice M1 garand. But I would likely take >a 357 as well. > Bravo. I completely agree. Although my .357 would be my backup handgun. I'd keep my Beretta .40 as my primary sidearm. Don't forget to get a decent amount of soft-point .30'06 and .308 rounds for taking big game. The FMJs and APs are great for attacking the enemy but aren't all that effective on whitetails. ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From hathaway@stsci.edu Fri Sep 16 20:49:52 EDT 1994 Article: 168 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!ncar!noao!stsci!stosc!hathaway From: hathaway@stsci.edu Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Real-Life Survival Tale Date: 16 Sep 94 15:10:34 EST Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore, MD 21218 Lines: 67 Distribution: na Message-ID: <1994Sep16.151034.1@stosc> NNTP-Posting-Host: devvax.stsci.edu On the chance ya'll might be interested in a real-life survival experience, (instead of the common fantasies), here is a summary of a tale I heard some years ago. I actually met the man and asked him a few things about his experience, but most of the details I got from a close friend of mine who first met him (before the event) and had a long talk with him after he returned. The young man in question was named Manfred and had come to the US around 1972 or 1973 (possibly later?) from Germany as a tourist, hoping to see as much of America as he could. My friend met him in NYC soon after he got to the States. We heard later what he found. Somehow he made it to Panama. Hitched a ride on a private boat along the Pacific coast. They got to an island called 'Coconut Island' or 'Isle d'Coconut' (sp?) some distance off the mainland. From what I've gathered from the tale and a look at an atlas, it is maybe a few miles in circumfrence, and, as the name implies, loaded with coconuts. The boat owner then ordered Manfred off the boat at gunpoint (there had been some dispute over his shipboard 'duties' involving the captain's wife and their German Shepard). He left him with some matches and a supply of salt and the admonition that a "good German" can handle such a situation. He was stranded there for about six weeks. Apparently it rained there every afternoon, so he could collect fresh water and keep clean. Sufficient vegetation for night time shelter and getting out of the tropical sun. Diet was coconut, coconut, and coconut. After some weeks he became somewhat befriended by one dominant male among the small herd of wild pigs who shared the island. In his effort to get some vitamins, minerals, etc. he dug a pit along the pig trails, installed sharpened spikes and waited. Much to his dismay, the lead pig was the first one in (I think he wanted to catch one of the herd guys). He had no choice then, and climbed in the hole to finish off his wounded buddy, and ate the liver, etc. I don't know how much of the meat he could preserve for later use but I can imagine he had at least a few days supply. After waiting daily for an uncertain fate, eventually (it looks like this island is off any real trading route), a small yacht showed up to look over the place. The crew had some movie equipment and documented his story, shelter, means of survival, etc. And offered him a release form for his tale as a ticket off the island back to the mainland. Needless to say he signed away his rights for the ride. We caught up with him some months later as he made his way back across the country to NY and heard his story. A couple of insights: we went into a liquor store for supplies and seeing some coconut liquor I asked him if he was sick of the taste of coconut. Actually he said no - it had been a life-saver during his ordeal and he considered it still a Good Thing for eating. I didn't see him eat any, but he had some other choices by that time. The other item: he had little attachment to possessions - no paranoid craving to have and to hoard all sorts of emergency equipment, gear, stuff... . He said at one time he had a bunch of stuff, lost it (in that adventure), and a year or so later, it accumulated all over again - clothes, tent, cooking gear, a new girlfriend, etc. So it comes, it goes, it comes again. So, I wonder - is anyone familiar with this island and can verify the plausability of his tale? Has anyone heard of the movie/documentary ever seeing the light of day? Any folks want to fantasize and speculate about how they would cope with this predicament and what would they want to have if so marooned? Could you handle it with no more than matches and salt and youthful good health? Or would you have chosen to sleep with the bitches? Regards, Wm. Hathaway From robertb@comtch.iea.com Fri Sep 16 20:49:53 EDT 1994 Article: 169 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!krel.iea.com!comtch!robertb From: robertb@comtch.iea.com (Robert Blanchard) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: storing grains Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:10:29 GMT Organization: CompuTech, Spokane WA Lines: 18 Message-ID: <35cqj5$136@krel.iea.com> References: <35amrl$29o@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: comtch.iea.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Laura McDonald (lauramc@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu) wrote: : so to get this thing started off (with out the guns and such), what is : a good way to store grain and greens without the 'frig. and other : machinery ie: ala natural, without it molding over the winter months : (exp. in areas like florida)? : -- : **!!** Laura **!!** : #1 FSU fan get books on gardening and learn to grow Belgian endive it will grow indoors all winter long. also one easy way to store grain for long periods is to make it into hard tack, hard and flavorless but has a shelf life longer than you or I do. Its basicly a flour and water biscuit. You can also sprout dried beans all winter long and get the benifits of eating greens. Robert robertb@comtch.iea.com From mzimmet@access.digex.net Fri Sep 16 20:49:54 EDT 1994 Article: 170 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mzimmet@access.digex.net (Michael Zimmet) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: lever actions Date: 16 Sep 1994 16:18:48 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 48 Sender: mzimmet@access3.digex.net Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net X-Newsreader: ZipNews Reader/Mailer v0.92y (Beta) In misc.survivalism, basiji@u.washington.edu writes: > The 30-30 is a good short-medium range round (out to 150 yards or so). The .30-30 lever action carbine is the ideal woods rifle. In the woods, it's unlikely you'll have a shot at more than 150 yards, after all. Plus, a .30-30 lever action carbine is easier to tote through dense woods than would be a longer rifle. > It's been around forever and a day and is relatively cheap. Particularly cheap when purchased used. And used .30-30's are extremely common. (Ammo's fairly cheap, too, at least when compared to many of the big game hunting rounds. Certainly not as inexpensive as .22 ammo, but the two really don't fill the same niche.) > My opinion of lever actions is that they are reliable but heavy and > not as accurate as a good bolt action. Agreed, on reliability. As for heavy, a Winchester lever action is probably lighter than the typical bolt action hunting rifle (although, since it's probably shorter, as well, it may actually be "denser"). As for accuracy, I'm firmly convinced that this is determined more by the skill of the person shooting the rifle, than by the rifle itself. This having been said, I will certainly agree that lever action carbines tend to have considerably less inherent accuracy than do most bolt action rifles. Of course, if the gun's accurate enough to make a clean kill on a deer, at 150 yards, that may be all the accuracy a given individual requires. > Also note that they aren't easy to deal with from a prone position > because they need clearance below to work the action. Just as an aside, let me add that this is true (to greater or lesser extent) for most rifles that use "under the gun" magazines, as well. Those folks hoping to fire from a prone position with their SKS's equipped with 30 round Ram-Line banana magazines may have some difficulties. > The top ejection does makes it tricky to mount a scope. Marlin lever action rifles have been popular for around a century or so. Quite popular, in fact. They've never used top ejection, always going the side ejection route. (Winchester lever action rifles have used semi-side ejection for the past few years, although historically they were top ejection.) From jthuang@red.seas.upenn.edu Fri Sep 16 20:49:55 EDT 1994 Article: 171 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!red.seas.upenn.edu!jthuang From: jthuang@red.seas.upenn.edu (Justin T. Huang) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:28:00 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35cv4g$j5q@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <35crup$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: red.seas.upenn.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.1] Yes, I'm still here... (greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com) wrote: : "The more you pay for a knife, the less you'll use it" How true. I was into collecting survival knives when I was younger, and one of the goodies I managed to snag was one of the original Buckmasters. It ran me about $100, but I haven't had the heart to mess up that wonderful beadblast finish by beating it to death like my bowie :) Anyway, I would recommend this knife for everything Gary mentioned except for combat purposes. The knife is very handle heavy and those anchors get in the way. The only other complaint I have with it is that the sheath's leg tie is rather thin; it cuts into your leg and doesn't really hold well when you are moving at a good clip. Other than that, it's a great survival tool. It saws, chops, dices better than a Ginsu. If you buy the supplemental pouch, you can even fit a magnesium fire block to round out the whole deal. A very useful survival tool indeed. Hope this helps. Jus P. S. I'd like to thank Billy C for the crime bill. I just got a quote from EAA--they want $99.95 for a 17 round 9mm magazine for my Astra A-100. Thanks. -- Justin T. Huang | jthuang@eniac.seas.upenn.edu UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA | justin@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu The Law School | jthuang@dolphin.upenn.edu From liats90@octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au Fri Sep 16 20:49:56 EDT 1994 Article: 172 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!msuinfo!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!sserve!r5.bld6.adfa.oz!liats90 From: liats90@octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au (Liang Tian Soon) Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Message-ID: Lines: 42 Sender: news@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au Organization: personal X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> <35bd1i$hfe@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:26:10 GMT In article <35bd1i$hfe@newsbf01.news.aol.com> kenm123456@aol.com (KenM123456) writes: >From: kenm123456@aol.com (KenM123456) >Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) >Date: 16 Sep 1994 02:13:06 -0400 >In article <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com>, >Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes: >>IMHO, >> Survival Equals = : >> * Water >> * Food >> * Security (=guns & concealment & non-provocative attitude) >> * Shelter >>... In that order... Comments? >>=Frank= >I tend to think that one would want: >(1) Weapons in order to last long enough to call for help using >(2) Communications, and then enough >(3) Shelter (clothing etc.) to last long enough to need >(4) Water, so that one can last long enough to need >(5) Food. >Although that supposes the worst of all possible worlds, and your mileage >may vary depending on your favorite scenarios. Hi, glad this group is up. When I was doing desert survival, the priorities taught were: 1) Shelter 2) Water 3) Food 4) Location This is for a non-hostile, classic stranded-somewhere, scenario where you want to be rescued - (4). Shelter is first because you can do without water or food for a while but you _need_ a shelter. This is critical in areas like snow. Even in the desert, shelter has 1st priority because you will lose water is exposed to the sun and the nights do get very cold. It is also a major morale booster to know you have a safe base, however crude. Water and then food is obvious. Comments? /*Liang Tian Soon;liats90@octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au*/ From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 20:49:56 EDT 1994 Article: 173 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 16 Sep 1994 14:00:25 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 53 Message-ID: <35c8dp$h6n@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <35b5oe$3sb$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] J Moschell (72714.3044@CompuServe.COM) wrote: : I would like to hear more from you about packet radio. What : licensing is involved, costs of equipment, power requirements, : etc. etc. : Also, info on range, data throughput rates, reliability, : security, etc. Wow! Have about a Gig of disk space? I guess you could do packet on just about anything but I think most of the non-military stuff is on Amateur Radio. The no-code Technician license will get you going on 6m,, 440mhz and 2m packet. I have a older 2m handheld (>$100), an antenna (homemade >$10 and not hard to make), shareware software (freeware is available), an old Zenith 8088 laptop (>$200), and a Terminal Node Controller (TNC, like a modem for radio). Transmitting is limited to local (>100mi. usually, anything can happen) connect, but there are message forwarders available and access to Internet e-mail. For long range packet use all of the above but substitute a handheld for a HF rig ($several hundred to several $k) and add a higher amateur license (morse code required). Optional bigger antennas, power amplifiers, etc. Range depends on conditions and band used. THroughput about 2400 but again that depends on the bands. (With error correcting GTOR data seems to be making less packet resend requests. Range also can be magnified with the use of satellites. But the are always busy it seems and avalability depends on orbit. Security? There is none. Part 97 of the FCC rules do not allow the use of "codes or cyphers" on amateur radio. (Morse is a language not a code supposedly.) That means no PGP, No one time pads. (Grupo, Grupo, Uno, Uno, Tres...). No talk around codes ("THe chair is against the wall. John has a red hat.") Anyone with the setup can "evesdrop" on packet messages. But don't let this discourage you though. Much packet was used during hurricanes and the California earthquake. The American Radio Relay League has a really good book an packet for $6.95. It is a good introduction of what packet can do for you. Try rec.radio.amateur.packet for more info. George Guillory guillory@blkbox.com From jdc@taligent.com Fri Sep 16 20:49:57 EDT 1994 Article: 174 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!taligent!dave-croyle.taligent.com!user From: jdc@taligent.com (The Kurgan) Subject: Re: talk about this? Message-ID: Sender: usenet@taligent.com (More Bytes Than You Can Read) Organization: Banzai Institute References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 14:55:08 GMT Lines: 13 In article <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net>, bhampton@golden.ncw.net (Brad Hampton) wrote: > does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? > x=1-5 > 5-20 > 20-50 > 50-+ > is ther a rule of thum ie. for every gal. of stored fuel add 3 months? > I haven't heard that increased quantity increases the longevity. I had heard six months before replacement (ideal.) From rreyes@pegasus.rutgers.edu Fri Sep 16 20:49:58 EDT 1994 Article: 175 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!dziuxsolim.rutgers.edu!pegasus.rutgers.edu!not-for-mail From: rreyes@pegasus.rutgers.edu (the little thing inside) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Map & Compass Date: 16 Sep 1994 10:01:23 -0400 Organization: Rutgers University Lines: 14 Message-ID: <35c8fj$4dn@pegasus.rutgers.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.rutgers.edu Summary: Finding the way around. Keywords: Magnetic Poles Orienteering Hello everyone: I have a question that hasn't been answered after consulting various military friends, and wish maybe someday it can be answered. I am pretty good at finding my way around with map & compass and feel safe in the outdoors. That is most outdoors except in one or two areas. My question is : How can one find his/her way around the magnetic pole regions? Is it possible without the aid of Loran type aids? Any assistance is appreciated, esp. since I have no answer to it. Rob. From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 20:49:59 EDT 1994 Article: 176 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: 16 Sep 1994 14:03:30 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35c8ji$h6n@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] W. Joseph Cooklin (aq195@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote: : Where does one get a crystal radio? Usually you make one unless you want an over priced junk from American Scientific. Try "Radios that Work for Free" from Lindsay's Books. Address can be found in back of Popolar Science. George Guillory guillory@blkbox.com From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Fri Sep 16 20:50:00 EDT 1994 Article: 177 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers In-Reply-To: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu's message of Thu, 15 Sep 1994 20:55:28 GMT Message-ID: <1994Sep16.135348.9363@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> ,<35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 13:53:48 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 37 In algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu writes: > Good ol' radios might be our best best for reestablishing > communications. What say the rest of you? I had a thought a while ago that came to me while thinking about possible plots for a fictional work. CB radios are everywhere and reasonable cheap, though with limited range. Ham Radio types have been doing 'Packet Radio' for years and there is a good bit hardware available over the counter for this, again at reasonable prices. If you want a SECURE communications network, encryption is essential, but encryption is illegal on the Ham Bands. What about a system that would allow a user to enter a message on his PC, encrypt it, and send it to a distant station using a network of CB's set up as digipeaters? Technically, this is possible with existing equipment. It might be illegal, though to send digital signals on the Citizen's Band. Anyone got a copy of the FCC regs for this band? -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From guillory@blkbox.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:01 EDT 1994 Article: 178 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: storing grains Date: 16 Sep 1994 14:27:10 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 38 Message-ID: <35c9vu$h6n@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <35amrl$29o@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Laura McDonald (lauramc@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu) wrote: : so to get this thing started off (with out the guns and such), what is : a good way to store grain and greens without the 'frig. and other : machinery ie: ala natural, without it molding over the winter months : (exp. in areas like florida)? I think I can do the grain part. My favorite: Procure required amount of new open head 5 gallon pails from plastics supply company. (Or if you have a lot of room get the 55gal version) (The 5-gals look like resturant pickle buckets BUT once you open the tops they are useless for grain storage. Plus who wants rice that smells like pickle juice?) Pour about an inch or so of grain in the bucket. Drop in about golf ball sized chunk of dry ice on the grain.(55gal gets baseball sized chunk.) Fill the rest of the way. Place lid on top but do not secure. Let dry ice evaporate. Since carbon dioxide is heavier than air it will displace all of the oxygen in the container. Lid will "burp". When lid stops burping secure it well. Some people add bay leaves to the mixture to kill bugs. I don't think it matters since bugs will die with all oxygen gone. Some people buy/rent a bottle of CO2 and fill directly. (Lance method.) Dryice is better for me because I can buy it at the local grocery store, easier to carry than a large bottle (and safer), and how do you know if you have displaced all of the oxygen? Sorry, I don't have the catalog for the plastic pails on me at the moment. Write if you want the company name and I will try to find it. George Guillory guillory@blkbox.com From mbothe@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:01 EDT 1994 Article: 179 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!mbothe From: mbothe@netcom.com (Michael Bothe) Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> <35b417$5cd@access1.digex.net> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 20:55:52 GMT Lines: 14 curt@access1.digex.net (curt williams) writes: >In article <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>, >Aaron Dial wrote: >>If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, >>and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most >Remington 870 12 guage shotgun > or >M1 Garand rifle in .30-06 Ever shoot a squirrel with a 30-06? You need a .22 rifle with iron sights. From webdw@mvulo.mv.att.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:02 EDT 1994 Article: 180 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!not-for-mail From: webdw@mvulo.mv.att.com (-woods b.) Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Message-ID: Sender: news@nntpa.cb.att.com (Netnews Administration) Nntp-Posting-Host: mvulo.mv.att.com Organization: AT&T References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> <35bd1i$hfe@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:09:09 GMT Lines: 26 In article <35bd1i$hfe@newsbf01.news.aol.com>, KenM123456 wrote: >In article <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com>, >Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes: > >>IMHO, >> Survival Equals = : >> * Water >> * Food >> * Security (=guns & concealment & non-provocative attitude) >> * Shelter >>... In that order... Comments? >>=Frank= > >I tend to think that one would want: > >(1) Weapons in order to last long enough to call for help using >(2) Communications, and then enough >(3) Shelter (clothing etc.) to last long enough to need >(4) Water, so that one can last long enough to need >(5) Food. Add: Mobility - leaving the area may be the key to survival. > From locasso@tis.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:03 EDT 1994 Article: 181 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 16 Sep 1994 21:37:00 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35d35s$g50@shemesh.tis.com> References: Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article HI@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu, algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (the virtual valkyrie) writes: > > I know about herbal medicine > and edible wild plants... How in the world did you ever learn about edible plants? When I first took up backpacking, I tried to learn what I could safely eat. I bought and read several books and searched for better books. Inevitably, these books would have pencil drawings of plants, and crude drawings at that. There was no way I could identify a plant from the pictures and descriptions. Oh, maybe I could guess, but no way did I want to eat the thing and find out for sure! Anyway, how did you manage to learn? Rosaria Locasso From wildsmit@netcom.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:04 EDT 1994 Article: 182 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!wildsmit From: wildsmit@netcom.com (Alex Wildsmith) Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Message-ID: Organization: DILIGAF Online Diservice X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:44:14 GMT Lines: 14 Aaron Dial wrote: : If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, : and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most : versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought : this would be an interesting topic of conversation. If you really mean forever and ever, with no contact with civilization, I would suggest a bow and arrows, and learn how to make strings, arrows, and the bow. Finding ammo in the wilderness is difficult, but if your ammo IS the wilderness, you can get by. -- Alex Wildsmith wildsmit@netcom.com And a voice came from above, and it spaketh thus: "Stop that down there. Don't you realize some people are trying to sleep?" From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:05 EDT 1994 Article: 183 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!world!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Good Books: Tom Brown's Series Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com>,<35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:09:31 GMT Lines: 10 For the biblio section of the FAQ, I'd recommend any of Tom Brown's books. There is a "Wilderness Survival" book, a book on tracking animals, an "Urban Survival" book, and others. He also has several books ("The Tracker", "The Search") which contain short stories about his work as a tracker for various police depts. I'll look up the exact info in the bookstore this weekend and put it together for Mr. London's anonymous FTP site. rdh From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:06 EDT 1994 Article: 184 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Ratings system... Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <35aa9u$nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu> <35cs1n$g50@shemesh.tis.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 21:14:55 GMT Lines: 31 In article <35cs1n$g50@shemesh.tis.com>, locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) writes: |> In article nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu, abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) writes: |> |> > Rating Description |> > |> > 1 Absolutely Necessary |> > 2 Necessary |> > 3 Important ...etc. |> we would spend years trying to clarify the difference between Important |> and Useful... Why not just let the writer say |> "I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo are necessary"? |> |> Rosaria Locasso |> I agree. It is not hard to imagine a four day argument over whether "this" or "that" tool or technique is a "1" or a "2". The sentence "in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo are necessary" begins to suggest what the threat is (human attackers) and also tries to address a strategy of defense (firearms, and presumably some training in their use). Identify the THREAT. *Then* propose some strategies for DEFENSE. Have a good weekend, all. It's Miller Time, rdh From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:06 EDT 1994 Article: 185 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: THREAT IDENTIFICATION (was "Gas Mask") Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <35bdgk$h7r@agate.berkeley.edu> <35cu77$2sk@macs.ico.tek.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 21:28:02 GMT Lines: 27 In article <35cu77$2sk@macs.ico.tek.com>, hall@macs.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) writes: |> In article rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: |> |> You must have nitrogen (N2) confused with carbon monoxide (CO). CO |> does what you describe but I don't think it is likely to be hauled |> around in a truck. It is produced by automotive exhausts however |> which is why you should never run an engine in an enclosed space or |> operate a vehicle with a faulty exhaust. |> it works the same as carbon monoxide, with the hemoglobin (? somebody help me out here?) you're right that most of the air we breathe is nitrogen, but I read a newspaper story some years back of one (or maybe two) Space Shuttle workers who walked into a pure nitrogen environment. They weren't in there long, and were still alive once they were pulled out of the room (or whatever it was) but the nitrogen had bound up all their hemoglobin (?) and they suffocated out in the open air. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me here, but I'm pretty sure that it was nitrogen. Whether a broken nitrogen truck tank could create a pure nitrogen environment...? who knows. as you mentioned, the cold would be much more dangerous. i just wanted to illustrate that there is no filter-based "magic mask" that can protect against everything in the air. rdh From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Fri Sep 16 20:50:07 EDT 1994 Article: 186 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 21:01:57 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 32 Message-ID: <35d145$m5q@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35cr6i$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com, behanna@syl.nj.nec.com (Chris BeHanna) writes: + + Col. Cooper holds the M-16 in contempt and recommends the M-1 in its +place. But I'll be the Col. (it's my understanding he has no commission BTW) wouldn't want to be ventilated by a guy with an M16. + + Tip: someone said you could reload using white-tipped matches for +primers. Anyone have any info on this? It would seem to be survival-relevant. You can supposedly use the white tips to reload primers only, not ammo. You're supposed to scavenge propellent from old artillery shells for the powder I guess. All this info came from US military manuals designed for unconventional warefare. +Why is Lon Horiuchi still breathing? Because people are hoarding their ammo... --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Fri Sep 16 20:50:09 EDT 1994 Article: 187 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 16 Sep 1994 21:09:25 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 56 Message-ID: <35d1i5$m5q@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35cv4g$j5q@netnews.upenn.edu> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article j5q@netnews.upenn.edu, jthuang@red.seas.upenn.edu (Justin T. Huang) writes: + + How true. I was into collecting survival knives when I +was younger, and one of the goodies I managed to snag was one +of the original Buckmasters. It ran me about $100, but I haven't +had the heart to mess up that wonderful beadblast finish by +beating it to death like my bowie :) + + Anyway, I would recommend this knife for everything +Gary mentioned except for combat purposes. The knife is very +handle heavy and those anchors get in the way. The only other +complaint I have with it is that the sheath's leg tie is rather +thin; it cuts into your leg and doesn't really hold well when +you are moving at a good clip. Unfortunately this knife was lambasted by a couple of different competitors, and it's not that great. The SEALs don't really use it. Either Bill Bagwell or Cold Steel had a photo of one broken into about 6 pieces: 1/2" of the tip, then 1" of the blade, then about 2-3"of the blade, then the rest. The stainless blade is too brittle. The tip can be snapped off if you lever it under hand pressure, and whacking the blade along the spine on a hard metal surface will reportedly shatter the blade. What's worse is that even when intact the blade is saber ground, not flat ground, and the knife has a poor balance for chopping. The handle has lots of sharp edges that cut up your hand under hard use, and in cold weather your skin will stick to the metal handle & guard. I saw a US Army Ranger carrying one of these once, so some military types do carry them, but they must not use them much. Compare this to my using bowie of forged carbon steel: I've locked the tip in a vice and pulled on it until it bent, then released it and it sprang back to true. I've chopped down small trees with it and still it was sharp enough to cut cloth effortlessly. Of course this knife cost me $550, and must be looked after slightly to keep it from rusting, but I'd trust my life to it. It was made by Cutler Jerry Fisk. +P. S. I'd like to thank Billy C for the crime bill. I just +got a quote from EAA--they want $99.95 for a 17 round 9mm +magazine for my Astra A-100. Thanks. I feel for you :-(. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Fri Sep 16 20:50:09 EDT 1994 Article: 188 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!psinntp!isc-newsserver!ritvax.isc.rit.edu!LSO8219 From: lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Subject: Re: Freqently Asked Questions, the misc.survivalism FAQ Message-ID: <1994Sep16.145321.945@ultb.isc.rit.edu> Sender: news@ultb.isc.rit.edu (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: vaxa-eth.isc.rit.edu Reply-To: lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology References: <15SEP199412122964@pavo.concordia.ca> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:53:21 GMT Lines: 1 way to go, great idea for a news_group.!! From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Fri Sep 16 20:50:10 EDT 1994 Article: 189 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 11:56 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 31 Distribution: world Message-ID: <16SEP199411561239@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo5.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu>, rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes... >STEPHENSON (dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote: >: These kinds of things and this group made me think: >: Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons >: of some sort? > > >I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns >the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't >seen any posts on the subject *sigh* Maybe I'll have to >post some files on the subject to straighten things out. Nope, this newgroup is dedicated to staying alive, _period_. Anywhere and anytime. > >Ron (rwalters@acs.bu.edu) > > >P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? No. Hmm, maybe I should report the FAQ? ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:11 EDT 1994 Article: 190 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to t.. Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <3585rv$826@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> <358f8t$jb4$2@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:18:55 GMT Lines: 11 I for one would be extremely interested in hearing a detailed account of Mr. Glover's hurricane experiences, as well as any earthquake info. It sounds like you had some bad luck Mr. Glover! Please relate whatever stories you think might be relevant! How did you get food and water? How did the people around you fare? Any info would be appreciated. Regards, Robert Holder From batemanc@UWYO.EDU Fri Sep 16 20:50:12 EDT 1994 Article: 191 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!roper.uwyo.edu!roper.uwyo.edu!nntp Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Food/Water storage Message-ID: <1994Sep16.154001.4017@roper.uwyo.edu> From: batemanc@UWYO.EDU (CHESTER P. BATEMAN) Date: 16 Sep 94 15:40:00 MDT Reply-To: batemanc@UWYO.EDU Distribution: world Organization: University of Wyoming, Laramie Nntp-Posting-Host: plain.uwyo.edu Lines: 6 I would interested in learning more about food/water storage. Of course, I would like to hear about seed storage. Calories? Mobility? Protien? H2O? Thanks in advance for any comments. Chet, batemanc@uwyo.edu From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Fri Sep 16 20:50:13 EDT 1994 Article: 192 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 16 Sep 1994 12:05 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <16SEP199412050419@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo5.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) writes... >Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications >in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as >constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? There are people in Bosnia now who have access to the net and provide a great deal of the news that comes out of there. The only problem is finding a hookup for your local access, possibly through a national (pay) on-line service. I don't forsee anything that would cause the total collapse of the net, except commercialization. :) ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From mtm@ssrg-ss10-7.Stanford.EDU Fri Sep 16 20:50:14 EDT 1994 Article: 193 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!biosci!news.Stanford.EDU!MED.Stanford.EDU!ssrg-ss10-7!mtm From: mtm@ssrg-ss10-7.Stanford.EDU (Mike Macgirvin) Subject: Re: Batteries (was: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS) Message-ID: Sender: news@medmail.stanford.edu Organization: Stanford University, California, USA X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #2 References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 21:32:24 GMT Lines: 22 >>I would add Radio Receiver (ham or cb or both). >>Obviously, lotsa batteries for the above. >Or crystal radio set without batteries... I've seen absolutely incredible >crystal radio sets that need no power but pull in just about everything. Twelve volts D.C. should be easily available for the next hundred years, scavenged of course from automobiles; which themselves might be useless without a fossil fuel distribution infrastructure. The batteries can be recharged by several means (attaching an alternator to a stationary bicycle would probably be the most common). This will probably the most popular electrical power source under a total-break-down scenario. Assuming that folks find other means of providing light and heat -- the biggest energy suckers, a car battery can power an intermittently used portable radio for a *long time* between charges. mike http://WWW-CAMIS.Stanford.EDU/people/mtm From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:15 EDT 1994 Article: 194 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: PACKET BBS Newsgroups Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <35b5oe$3sb$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:40:19 GMT Lines: 21 J. Moschell: here is where I would look for more info on Packet BBS. It would be appreciated if you would post a summary of what you learn to this newsgroup. Thanks! --rdh rec.radio.amateur.antenna rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc (my first guess) rec.radio.amateur.equipment rec.radio.amateur.homebrew (second guess) rec.radio.amateur.misc rec.radio.amateur.policy rec.radio.amateur.space rec.radio.broadcasting rec.radio.cb rec.radio.info rec.radio.noncomm rec.radio.scanner rec.radio.shortwave rec.radio.swap From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Fri Sep 16 20:50:16 EDT 1994 Article: 195 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: FAQ, now includes biography Date: 16 Sep 1994 12:08 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 115 Distribution: world Message-ID: <16SEP199412083204@pavo.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo5.concordia.ca Keywords: FAQ News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 Welcome to the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for misc.survivalism! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Modified last on September 16, 1994 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ More than just a list of questions and answers, FAQ's are short introductions to the community that subscribe to the newsgroup. In misc.survivalism, we discuss survival theory. If there was one line we could lift out of our charter to sum up the group it would be, "The prevailing philosophy of misc.survivalism is that I and the ones I love want to remain alive no matter what." Q) What can we talk about on misc.survivalism? A) Anything to do with survival theory, including emergency prepardness. Need plans for a shelter? Ask. Fly an aircraft and want to know what to what to pack "just in case"? Ask. Hate firearms and want to spout off? _Don't_ ask - see next question. Q) What _don't_ you talk about in misc.survivalism? A) There are two main categories of posting _not_ appreciated on m.s. There is no moderator on this group - we like it that way. Post things in these two categories and you will get lots of hate mail... 1) Personal objections to theory which do not include survivalist/ emergency prepardness material. For example, if one person describes his technique for food hoarding - and you think it immoral - write to him or her in email. Don't put it on the group. Same thing about firearms, we're not pro- or anti-gun as a group. Individual members who wish to talk about that topic can go to talk.politics.guns. If someone posts something about survivalist therory which you believe is _technically_ wrong (like description of an edible plant for example) then go ahead and discuss that. 2) Postings which have nothing to do with our group. Don't spam us with ads for skin cream, lottery tickets, x-rated videos etc... Keep on topic, flames belong in alt.flame or through email. Q) Who's reading this group? A) There were over 400 people who voted for this group's creation. When I was starting this up, I met many of them through email. They come from as far away as Germany and Australia and from all walks of life. They are weekend campers, Boy Scout leaders, officers and enlisted men from armies all around the globe, or just people concerned with their safety. Something that surprised me (that really shouldn't have) is the number of women who mailed me during the groups proposal. Q) Anyone _else_ reading this group? A) By the very nature of survivalist theory, some people raise their eyebrows in suspicion. Therefore keep in mind that this is a public newsgroup and _anyone_ who has net access can read this group. This includes government agencies, so while it's not (at least on this group) prohibited to discuss techniques or actions which stray outside legal frameworks - it might be prudent to think carefully before putting your name on such a post. Using an anonymous server (one not based in your country) would be a helpful option. Q) I have a question not covered by this FAQ. A) I'm sure there are lots. This FAQ is still in its infancy. So for now, follow the above rules and you'll be fine. Questions I see repeated often will be added here. Q) Who are you? A) I am the proposer of misc.survivalism. For now I also do the FAQ, this might change if someone else wants the job... You can contact me by email at . Q) Where can I look for more information? A) Wendell has suggested a few books which might be helpful for getting basic information on the survival topic. Please mail any suggestions for additions (or deletions :) ) directly to him. General Books C.G. Cobb, Bad Times Primer. This provides an overview of most fields of self-reliance and makes recommendations for equipment and fields of study. Note that it was written around 1979, so some information is out of date. Bruce Clayton, Life After Doomsday. Primarily focused around nuclear war survival skills, this book provides basic information on survival skills and, more important, references to find out more about those skills covered in brief. This was written in the late 1970s, so some of the information is out of date. Self-Reliance Colin Fletcher, The Complete Walker Dean Ing, The Chernobyl Syndrome Mel Tappan, Tappan On Survival Nuclear War Survival Dean Ing, Pulling Through Cresson Kearny, Nuclear War Survival Skills Firearms Massad Ayoob, The Truth About Self Protection Massad Ayoob, Stressfire Mel Tappan, Survival Guns Reference Books American Radio Relay League, The Radio Amateur's Handbook CRC Press, CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics ["The Rubber Bible"] Medical Economics Company, Physicians Desk Reference ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From niemeyer@egr.msu.edu Fri Sep 16 20:50:17 EDT 1994 Article: 196 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!niemeyer From: niemeyer@egr.msu.edu (uid no access) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Ratings system... Date: 16 Sep 1994 16:07:16 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 33 Message-ID: <35cfrk$10hv@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> References: <35aa9u$nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: niemeyer@egr.msu.edu (uid no access) NNTP-Posting-Host: eecae.ee.msu.edu Originator: niemeyer@eecae In article <35aa9u$nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu> abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Breze nski) writes: > >Rating Description > >1 Absolutely Necessary >2 Necessary >3 Important >4 Useful >5 Luxury >6 Stupid >7 Dangerous > Excellent suggestion! This could also be used as a code as in "in an urban survival situation the local cops could become '7'" or "This reply is useless and '6'" +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Kurt R. Niemeyer my opinions neither affect nor reflect the opinions of| |Don't Tread On Me my employer | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Fri Sep 16 20:50:18 EDT 1994 Article: 197 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:13:56 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 34 Message-ID: <35d5b4$j0@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> <35b417$5cd@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article , Michael Bothe wrote: >curt@access1.digex.net (curt williams) writes: > >>In article <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>, >>Aaron Dial wrote: >>>If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, >>>and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most > >>Remington 870 12 guage shotgun >> or >>M1 Garand rifle in .30-06 >Ever shoot a squirrel with a 30-06? > >You need a .22 rifle with iron sights. > Do you honestly believe you can live solely off of squirrels and bunnies? Better to take one large animal (with somethink like an '06) like a deer then have to scrounge around all morning and afternoon trying to get one or two measly varmints. You might actually loose more energy then you would gain by taking the squirrel(s). And if you DID want to go after a squirrel, why would you choose iron sights over a good variable power scope? Something like a Bushnell 3x - 9x would be GREAT for squirrels. ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From jdc@taligent.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:18 EDT 1994 Article: 198 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!taligent!dave-croyle.taligent.com!user From: jdc@taligent.com (The Kurgan) Subject: south bay "survivalists"/shooters? Message-ID: Sender: usenet@taligent.com (More Bytes Than You Can Read) Organization: Banzai Institute Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 19:06:13 GMT Lines: 20 I'm looking for people in the south bay area who are interested in survivalism and firearms. I've been a student of both for many years now, but currently don't know anyone in my area who's "into it." I am not religious, nor a racist, or an extremist. I'm an NRA member who works in computer tech support and has an odd sense of humor, but other than that I'm a fairly normal guy! I have a couple of friends who own guns but aren't as interested in guns & survival as I am. I'm basically looking for anyone who likes to go shooting or is interested in this kind of stuff. I don't get to the range nearly as often as I should and I think picking up some "shooting buddies" would help get me there more frequently. I'm a safe shooter who is into down-to-earth combat-type firearms and techniques, and I consider myself fairly knowledgeable. I'd also be interested in hunting some time in the future since I haven't been hunting since I was a kid. In the long run, there's strength in numbers and I'd like to meet some people I can team up with if any ___ hits the fan. Please save bandwidth by emailing me directly at jdc@taligent.com Dave From stgprao@st.unocal.COM Fri Sep 16 20:50:19 EDT 1994 Article: 199 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!news.service.uci.edu!unogate!stgprao From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Sender: news@unocal.com (Unocal USENET News) Organization: Unocal Corporation References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 17:23:33 GMT Lines: 15 In article <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu>, Shane Patrick Ahern wrote: >Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications >in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as >constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? The net has both strengths and weaknesses. It is vulnerable because it is high tech. Once the electricity goes off and/or there is lots of EM noise, then the net will go down. Most of the relay nodes are computers. On the strength side, the net is very diffuse geographically and mechanism-wise. It may be hard to clobber the whole thing. The net was a useful communications medium in the Northridge quake when some other channels died. From tmh@ictv.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:20 EDT 1994 Article: 200 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!ictv!tmh From: tmh@ictv.com (Todd Hoff) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: <1994Sep16.165947.14594@ictv.com> Organization: /import/news/lib/organi[sz]ation References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:59:47 GMT Lines: 18 In article , >I for one am not counting on Usenet or the Internet to survive >a major disaster such as a nuclear holocaust. Even a local >disaster such as a major flood would probably destroy my >personal net.access. > >Good ol' radios might be our best best for reestablishing >communications. What say the rest of you? > Since TCP/IP networks were designed to survive nuclear strikes it's likely the internet will survive, perhaps with reduced capability but it will survive. Your service access point may get creamed however. internet feeds are available over the satellite. You can dial into a remote BBS which is connected to the internet. Or you can talk with remote hams who are connected. We've weaved the web, it will not be easily undone. From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Fri Sep 16 20:50:21 EDT 1994 Article: 201 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 16 Sep 1994 12:57:31 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 49 Message-ID: <35cipr$h6q@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <1994Sep16.022330.29406@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> <35b3m1$hks@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article <35b3m1$hks@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, Robert Allen wrote: >In article <1994Sep16.022330.29406@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) writes: >+In <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu writes: >+> for use in a long-term "rebellion" type of open warfare? Is something >+> like the U.S. Army's two-man shelter halves a good investment or should >+> I simply be content with a good water-repellent sleeping bag which I >+> can roll up into my pack harness? >+ >+YUCK! The shelter halves make a shelter that is drafty and leaky. Not to >+mention somewhat heavy and a bitch to set up in the dark. > >I've been fortunate enough to have been shown how to construct >a very effective shelter out of a 1 3/4 lb. nylon net hammock, >and a US military poncho. Inside the shelter you put a sleeping >pad, and on top of that you put your sleeping bag. The warmth >of the system can be augmented by adding a space blanket and/or >US military poncho liner between the hammock and sleeping pad. >Properly done, this gives you a shelter that is wind resistant, >rain resistant, and tactical. I've used this camping in the >Ventana wilderness area and Yosemite, and it's great. It gets >you up off the ground, away from the wet, and where you can see >what's coming. You could actually pitch your hammock up in >a tree in a truly tactical situation.... Are you serious aobut pitching your hammock in a tree in a "tactical situation", ie combat zone? That sounds extraordinarily bad. My first thought would be that, sitting in a tree at NIGHT while asleep would be that I'm now the equivilant of an IR lighthouse beacon, ten or fifteen feet in the air, beconing for all my "friends" with IR scoped rifles and patrolling choppers to find and apprehend, or more likely just kill. The more I think about it the more I think I'd be better off making a good bed out of pine needles and leaves and then keeping my sleeping bad on top of that. That way I can see/hear what's moving around me and not be caught by surprise. I'd also stay REAL low to the ground. Preferrably under a rock outcropping or in a natural depression, as long as it isn't raining. If the weather is bad, I'd try to construct a lean-to over my sleeping bag, and reinforce it with a camo poncho for the night. ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From kovar@nda.com Fri Sep 16 20:50:22 EDT 1994 Article: 202 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!news.kgc.com!kpc!NewsWatcher!user From: kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:32:16 -0800 Organization: Net Daemons Associates, Inc. Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <35cslq$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.52.104.196 > Adventure Medical Kits puts out the closest to what you're probably > looking for, IMHO. Oakland, CA. 510-632-1442. They can send out a catalog. > Frankly, I believe in "training first". Carry what you know how to use. > Lots of people ask about kits who don't have any current training, or > whose training is not appropriate. The approach for them seems to be > based around carrying lots of meds and advanced stuff (usually sutures > and narcotics). With this approach there's a great potential for making > things worse, which defeats the whole purpose. I'll second this, whole heartedly. Until I became an EMT, I carried around the most basic of first aid kits. -David From schaz@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov Fri Sep 16 20:50:22 EDT 1994 Article: 203 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!news.byu.edu!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!marsupial.jpl.nasa.gov!inst-sun1!schaz From: schaz@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov (Seth Chazanoff) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 16 Sep 1994 16:15:45 GMT Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory Lines: 8 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35cgbh$47a@marsupial.jpl.nasa.gov> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> Reply-To: schaz@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov NNTP-Posting-Host: inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov Aaron I'd go with a 12 ga. pump shotgun, like the Winchester 870, with a medium choke. This would allow you to shoot most birds, and allow larger game with either slugs or buckshot (depending upon what is legal in your area). Seth From debjohn@gate.net Fri Sep 16 20:50:23 EDT 1994 Article: 204 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!tequesta.gate.net!hopi.gate.net!debjohn From: debjohn@gate.net (debjohn) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Gas mask (was Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS) Date: 16 Sep 1994 22:57:47 GMT Lines: 28 Message-ID: <35d7tb$1dfe@tequesta.gate.net> References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <35bdgk$h7r@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hopi.gate.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Joan M. Van Horn (joan@nature.Berkeley.EDU) wrote: : When the large earthquake hits here, or in some other : disaster, who knows what will happen with the chemical companies, : and factories nearby? While I would not have taken a gas mask on : Amtrak (...before :-)) I'm interested in getting a few now for home : and car. : The only ones I've seen were really ratty. Does anyone : have any suggestions? Would some of the pesticide cartridges you can : buy at some hardware stores for dust masks be like, say one of those Israeli : masks that are supposed to be good? : Thanks for any info. Not sure what sort of masks you've seen at the hardware store, but 3M does make a few types of "disposable" masks which come sealed in convenient plastic bags. The charcoal filters in these masks carry different OSHA ratings, so it's hard to tell which mask would be best for general "survival" purposes. Auto paint supply stores sell a variety of exotic cartridge-style masks, which are more protective, but these are also larger and more expensive. As for full-face, military-style masks, I believe the Israeli gas masks are still available at a reasonable price, while newer American versions are usually much more expensive. I've had some experience with all of these types, but basically any mask with a charcoal filter will be much better than a damp bandanna wrapped around one's face. Cheers. debjohn From cg0898@u.cc.utah.edu Fri Sep 16 20:50:24 EDT 1994 Article: 205 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!news.byu.edu!cwis.isu.edu!u.cc.utah.edu!not-for-mail From: cg0898@u.cc.utah.edu (Chris Gunnell) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Why fully automatics? Date: 16 Sep 1994 16:30:44 -0600 Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center Lines: 16 Message-ID: <35d6ak$brn@u.cc.utah.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: u.cc.utah.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Here's one for a thread...What are some reasons to having a fully automatic rifle for survival? The scenario is that society has collapsed, no govt. exists, no trucking, etc. It would seem to me that for survival the cities would cease to be. They do not support an agrarian society and would be vastly more hostile than the "country". In this scenario why would one want to have an automatic rifle? I would choose a bolt action of 30-06 caliber or larger and save ammo. It would be perfectly adequate for defending myself and family, and would also serve for hunting without the complicated action and no ammo wasted. Any thoughts? -- Chris Gunnell The opinions expressed by me are a direct chris.gunnell@u.cc.utah.edu result of my upbringing, culture, and habits. And maybe by that one time I was kicked in the head by that water buffalo. From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Fri Sep 16 20:50:25 EDT 1994 Article: 206 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 16 Sep 1994 21:39:32 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 40 Message-ID: <35d3ak$mcv@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35cvt8$g50@shemesh.tis.com> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article g50@shemesh.tis.com, locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) writes: +In article Lq2@netcom.com, pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) writes: +> I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can +> anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, +> hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. + +The USMC Ka-Bar is a good solid knife and commonly available. Lately, I've +seen them at gun shows for $30; my local Army Surplus sells them for $44. I should raise my prices - I'm selling them for $27.00 (+ $4.00 if you want them really sharp), plus shipping. Of course shipping is $6.50 so it's better to order the knife with some other stuff to save, save, save :-) :-). Mine are made by Ontario, the current gov't contractor. I love the KaBar, although I now take a more expensive knife when I go out. But when I was a poor kid, I had one I'd sharpened up. It took all kinds of abuse, until the day about 1/2" of the tip snapped off after I'd been using it for a throwing knife all day. The spine also bowed slightly and the guard rattles slightly, but considering that I'd been bouncing it off a sheet of pine all day (not all my throws ended point first), I have to say I'm impressed with them. I eventually re-profiled the broken tip down to something useable, and I still have that knife today. I use it for misc. prying and other dirty work that I won't use my nicer knife for. I find it not-just-coincidence that this knife is carbon steel, and not the stainless steel prevalent in so many fancy knives today. (Can you tell I'm a carbon steel bigot?) --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From hollombe@polymath.tti.com Fri Sep 16 21:09:29 EDT 1994 Article: 207 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!ttinews!polymath!hollombe From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) Subject: Re: What is meant by Light Aircraft Crew Message-ID: <1994Sep17.004848.24951@ttinews.tti.com> Sender: usenet@ttinews.tti.com (Usenet Admin) Nntp-Posting-Host: polymath.tti.com Organization: The Cat Factory References: <35b6qg$nin@nic-nac.CSU.net> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 00:48:48 GMT Lines: 11 In article <35b6qg$nin@nic-nac.CSU.net> haacm024@huey.csun.edu (Duane Smeckert) writes: }Light aircraft are generally single engine propeller driven fixed wing }aircraft. There is an actual limit but I don't have my references handy. 12,500 lbs. I don't recall whether that's empty or gross. It does include quite a few twins though. The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com) Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp "Learning about the U.S. from the popular 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. media is like learning about plumbing by Santa Monica, CA 90405 sitting in a cesspool." -- Michael Phelps From hernler@hspt.tu-graz.ac.at Fri Sep 16 21:09:29 EDT 1994 Article: 208 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!newsfeed.ACO.net!fstgds15.tu-graz.ac.at!fhsppc25.tu-graz.ac.at!hernler From: hernler@hspt.tu-graz.ac.at (hannes g. hernler) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Jeffersons gun (was: What is this newsgroup going to talk about?) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 00:46:18 GMT Organization: HSZS Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhs$l1p@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fhsppc25.tu-graz.ac.at X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B] In article <357qhs$l1p@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> dputzolu@sal.cs.uiuc.edu (David Putzolu) writes: > lot of stuff deleted........ >+ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest + >+ reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as + >+ a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. + >+ - Thomas Jefferson, proposed Virginia constitution, June 1776. + >+ 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950) + I think, Thomas Jefferson was right then, in 1776! But had the government tanks, planes, H-bombs, FBI and some millions of soldiers then? And when tyranny is now (and better than ever) with TV, free highways, a car for everybody, McBurgers and "free choice" (as long as you can buy it and have enough money so that you do all to get that money) ? What sence makes a gun then? Hannes Hernler PPOe, Scouts and Guides of Austria ---------------------------------------------------- ".... and no kangaroos around!"** ---------------------------------------------------- **I have stolen this sig From HAL@UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Fri Sep 16 21:09:30 EDT 1994 Article: 209 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!smf-d5.facsmf.utexas.edu!HAL From: PA Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Remember Koubaton? Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:11:19 GMT Organization: House of Bob Lines: 11 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35cjjn$rf8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: smf-d5.facsmf.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: Nuntius Version 1.2 X-XXMessage-ID: X-XXDate: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:11:20 GMT I am interested in getting some info on a martial art technique known as "Koubaton" (I think that's how it's spelled). It uses a small baton, about 5- 6" in length. I remember that some police dept.'s were training their officers in the use of these batons. Does anyone know were I might find some info (book, magazine, etc.) on this thing? Thanks Hal@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Fri Sep 16 21:19:04 EDT 1994 Article: 210 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Crystal Radio Schematic Message-ID: <1994Sep16.165951.23257@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 16:59:51 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 62 Ok, you asked for it... Here is a schematic fro a SIMPLE crystal radio FROM MEMORY. THIS MIGHT BE WRONG SINCE I HAVEN'T BUILT ONE OF THESE IN YEARS!!!!!!! ___ \|/ Antenna | | 3 3 Tuning Coil _ PIEZOELECTRIC earphones 3<--------------->|--------| |< 3 1N34A diode - 3 | | | +---------------------------+ | ___ /// Ground Now the last time I did this, I was 8 years old (20 years ago), but I remember using a kitestick for the coil form and close-wrapping about 4-inches of it with about 30-guage enameled wire and using a piece of erector-set stock as the sliding connection. Work it back and forth a few times to wear off the enamel so it can make contact. The antenna I used was about 40 feet of 18 guage bell wire strung across the back yard (hung quite a few unsuspecting neighbors the first few days it was up...). I used the outside cold water faucet as the ground. The piezoelectric/crystal earphone is ESSENTIAL. Regular earphones for modern radios are low-impedance devices and DON'T WORK. You MUST use a high-impedance unit. It might be possible to use an audio transformer (1000 ohm to 8 ohm) in conjunction with a 8 ohm earphone, but I have never tried it. The 1N34A diode is available from radio shack. With this setup I was only able to pick up ONE station, WGR in Buffalo, NY which was about 25 miles away, BUT IT WORKED. Now if you have access to more parts, you could replace the tuning coil with a REAL tuned circuit. I have seen designs that use variable capacitors and inductors made by winding magnet wire around 35mm film canisters. Whatever the design, a good antenna and a good ground are ESSENTIAL. This ain't a portable! -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Fri Sep 16 21:19:05 EDT 1994 Article: 211 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!abrez From: abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Jeffersons gun (was: What is this newsgroup going to talk about?) Date: 17 Sep 1994 01:10:25 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL Lines: 14 Message-ID: <35dfm1$ovv@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhs$l1p@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu In article , hannes g. hernler wrote: [tirade about someone's .sig (for crying out loud!) deleted!] Take it elsewhere (talk.politics.guns, etc.). Though we have our opinions, THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO DEBATE THEM! GO AWAY! Aaron Brezenski "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me." Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati "If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion." "... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" From gt8834a@prism.gatech.edu Sat Sep 17 10:59:42 EDT 1994 Article: 212 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!gt-news!prism!prism!not-for-mail From: gt8834a@prism.gatech.edu (Cott Lang) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Date: 16 Sep 1994 21:20:51 -0400 Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Lines: 16 Sender: gt8834a@prism.gatech.edu Message-ID: <35dg9j$i0o@acmex.gatech.edu> References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> <359pih$ivc@selway.umt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acmex.gatech.edu velkey@selway.umt.edu (Andrew J Velkey) writes: >(the type of gun usually concealed) is **relatively** ineffective in >a survival situation. You can't protect yourself against very large >threats (Bears, Moose, etc.) and, unless you're Wyatt Earp or something, >you are not going to have very successful hunting. A .22 LR will bring >down a ton of varmint for eating, clothing, etc, the ammo is lightweight, I hope you're not planning on trying to bring down "large threats" like Bears and Moose with a .22 LR :) -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think - therefore I am not politically correct. | Vote Libertarian | The Bill of Rights R.I.P. 1791 - 1994 | 1-800-682-1776 From gt8834a@prism.gatech.edu Sat Sep 17 10:59:43 EDT 1994 Article: 213 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!gt-news!prism!prism!not-for-mail From: gt8834a@prism.gatech.edu (Cott Lang) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Why fully automatics? Date: 16 Sep 1994 21:22:40 -0400 Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Lines: 19 Sender: gt8834a@prism.gatech.edu Message-ID: <35dgd0$j7j@acmex.gatech.edu> References: <35d6ak$brn@u.cc.utah.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acmex.gatech.edu cg0898@u.cc.utah.edu (Chris Gunnell) writes: >Here's one for a thread...What are some reasons to having a fully >automatic rifle for survival? The scenario is that society has collapsed, >no govt. exists, no trucking, etc. It would seem to me that for survival >the cities would cease to be. They do not support an agrarian society and >would be vastly more hostile than the "country". In this scenario why >would one want to have an automatic rifle? I would choose a bolt action >of 30-06 caliber or larger and save ammo. It would be perfectly adequate Why would having a bolt action necessarily save ammo over a fully automatic weapon? I don't personally know of many fully automatics that *ONLY* fire fully automatic. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think - therefore I am not politically correct. | Vote Libertarian | The Bill of Rights R.I.P. 1791 - 1994 | 1-800-682-1776 From gt8834a@prism.gatech.edu Sat Sep 17 10:59:43 EDT 1994 Article: 214 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!gt-news!prism!prism!not-for-mail From: gt8834a@prism.gatech.edu (Cott Lang) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Why fully automatics? Date: 16 Sep 1994 21:23:42 -0400 Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Lines: 16 Sender: gt8834a@prism.gatech.edu Message-ID: <35dgev$jtq@acmex.gatech.edu> References: <35d6ak$brn@u.cc.utah.edu> <35dbmv$hkn@mordred.gatech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acmex.gatech.edu wilkes@@photobooks.gatech.edu (Travis Works) writes: >1) I see no reason to stockpile a fully automatic weapon, esp. since doing >so without a Class III license has been illegal for the last 60 years. >I do keep a semi-automatic rifle (which is what most people mean by the >term "automatic", although Klinton and the media have used this confusion >against us), and I see no reason why a bolt action rifle would be better. No, it's illegal to have one that you haven't paid your taxes on. Owning one is perfectly legal. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think - therefore I am not politically correct. | Vote Libertarian | The Bill of Rights R.I.P. 1791 - 1994 | 1-800-682-1776 From mbothe@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:44 EDT 1994 Article: 215 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!mbothe From: mbothe@netcom.com (Michael Bothe) Subject: Re: FOR SALE: MRE'S Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 00:21:16 GMT Lines: 13 jeffrey_p_wendt@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov (Jeffrey P Wendt) writes: >I will be getting some cases in very soon, and they will be priced as follows: >Case of 12 meals without heaters: $35.00 > with heaters: $40.00 >Drop me a line if interested. >Jeff I tried, it bounced back. e-mail me, mbothe@netcom.com From hdavis@usbr.gov Sat Sep 17 10:59:45 EDT 1994 Article: 216 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!ncar!csn!borcore.usbr.gov!news From: hdavis@usbr.gov Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Storage of grains Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:39:14 GMT Organization: U.S. Bureau of Reclamation Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35cl82$gih@borcore.usbr.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.5.233.29 X-Newsreader: AIR News 2.0 (SPRY, Inc.) The method using dry ice works great if you are using only whole grains in your storage. Traditional methods of grain storage(ie., no dry ice or other "modern" chemicals needed) include such things as 1. partially cooking and then drying (ala wheat bulgar) 2. drying (beans), and 3. coarse grinding and then drying (ala corn meal). While these methods will not work for extended periods of time, assuming you have a tightly sealed container you can store wheat bulgar and corn meal for several years at room temperatures without fear of spoilage or loss. And I have cooked and eaten dried beans from the late 50s (around 1958 frommy grandfathers camping/hunting chuck box) with just some additional soaking time. hdavis@usbr.gov From Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:45 EDT 1994 Article: 217 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!news.dell.com!news From: Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Eating dogs and cats, yum! Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:54:41 GMT Organization: Dell Computer Corp Lines: 3 Message-ID: <35cm51$c2u@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: flangham.us.dell.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 Don't worry if you can't find any squirrels... besides, when domestic dogs get hungry, they start to run in packs. You may have to shoot them anyway... yummy-yum-yum! From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 10:59:46 EDT 1994 Article: 218 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Gas mask (was Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS) Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:12:51 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 49 Message-ID: <35cjmj$k97@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35bdgk$h7r@agate.berkeley.edu> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article h7r@agate.berkeley.edu, joan@nature.Berkeley.EDU (Joan M. Van Horn) writes: > > I didn't think gas-masks were desirable as emergency >equipment until last summer. I wound up sitting with Amtrack >on a sideline while waiting for the cloud from a leak at a >chemical company to arrive. This leak shut down transport >for hours, sent thousands to emergency rooms with breathing >trouble, and had the rest of us listening to where the cloud >was supposed to be heading. > When the large earthquake hits here, or in some other >disaster, who knows what will happen with the chemical companies, >and factories nearby? While I would not have taken a gas mask on >Amtrak (...before :-)) I'm interested in getting a few now for home >and car. > The only ones I've seen were really ratty. Does anyone >have any suggestions? Would some of the pesticide cartridges you can >buy at some hardware stores for dust masks be like, say one of those Israeli >masks that are supposed to be good? Good US military gas masks are available, but they aren't cheap. I think the latest ones I've seen advertised are about $50.00 each. And you have to replace the filters and valves every so often. On the older M17-series of masks you really need to replace the thin membrane valves every 6 months to 1 year. They dry out quickly. Finding replacement components is touch, and even when you find them they may not have been stored correctly so they may already be dried out. For breathing emergencies only I've heard that the cheap Israeli surplus masks, w/ sealed filters, are a good bet. These used to run about $20.00 per mask and $5.00 per filter. The down side of gas *masks* is that they don't protect your skin from corrosive gasses, but I guess being scarred is better than being unable to breath... If you're really interested in masks, start a yellow pages hunt for safety equipment. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 10:59:47 EDT 1994 Article: 219 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:20:28 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 43 Message-ID: <35ck4s$k97@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article 473@freenet.carleton.ca, aq195@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (W. Joseph Cooklin) writes: > >Where does one get a crystal radio? IMHO they are more trouble than they're worth. Instead buy a radio which can be run off 12 volts DC and setup a simple solar-power rig. Or for shortterm use just get a enough 12V gel-cells that you won't run outof power for month. Check out shortwave radios that have a 12V jack, or if you're an electronics type even a 9V (make a voltage regulator setup so you can run off 12 V). I know one fellow who potted up a voltage regulator setup in a piece of PVC pipe. If you want to spend a lot of money for a really good radio, I highly recommend the Lowe HF-150. This is a shortwave radio which recieves from 30kHz to 30 MHz (some radios only get parts of that bandwidth), runs off 12 V externally or 8 AA batteries internally, has a builtin charging circuit to run off AA nicad batteries, is simple to operate, and is in a completely metal case, so it's very rugged and somewhat resistant to local EMI (but not EMP). They sell mail order for about $600.00, not including the keypad which is an $80.00 option. They are imported from England. I love mine. The form factor is about 7" x 7" x 4" -- it looks like a little metal cube with just a few buttons and dials on it, and a big LCD display. Cheaper alternatives are the Sony 2010, or SW55. Shortwave radios are great because a full coverage model can recieve everything from your local AM stations to US military freqs. Last night I listened to coded Air Force communications. Tonight I'm going to try for some Navy comm on Haiti. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 10:59:48 EDT 1994 Article: 220 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:25:05 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 42 Message-ID: <35ckdh$k97@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article Lq2@netcom.com, pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) writes: >I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can >anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, >hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. >The knives don't have to have all of the characteristics. These could be >separate knives. >At the last show I saw a realy nice one, it had a nylon chord wrapped >handle, the guard was detachable so it could be used on a stick. Buying knives is a very hard proposition. When I go backpacking I carry a Swiss Army Super Tinker, and a 7" bladed custom made bowie knife. If you want a big knife, get one that's completely flat ground, and which has a balance forward of the guard. This will allow you to chop. The Cold Steel Trailmaster bowie is a good example, except that it's very prone to rust, and is heavier/thicker than you really need. But once you've seen one you'll understand what a flat ground blade is, and you'll know how to evaluate other knives. The USMC fighting knife (aka. KaBar) is another good knife, when properly sharpened, but it's not very useful for chopping. It's a good car/pack knife however since it's cheap, will hold an edge well, is more easily re-sharpened than a stainless steel knife, and it's reliable. A really great knife was the Moran-Warner Rio Grande bowie. This was a fully flat ground, carbon steel blade. It had all the earmarks of a superb chopper. Unfortunately it was discontinued, but you still see them at gun shows. They sold for about $100.00. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From bruce@slc.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:49 EDT 1994 Article: 221 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!netcomsv!slcgate!servio!servio!bruce From: bruce@slc.com (Bruce Schuchardt) Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Message-ID: Lines: 100 Sender: news@slc.com (USENET News) Nntp-Posting-Host: servio Organization: Servio Corporation, Beaverton OR, USA References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> Date: 16 Sep 94 21:56:33 GMT rfelix@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) writes: >In article <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> rodneywa@triton.unm.edu (Rodney C. Ward) writes: >> >I wouldn't count on lemon juice to kill viruses or bacteria in water. >Use a filter, tablets or boil it.... I usually boil my water, too, but a friend recently suggested adding a few drops of bleach (you know, Clorox) to water to kill germs and then letting it sit overnight. I've been using bleach to disinfect beer- making equipment for years. Anyone heard of doing this before? -- Bruce Schuchardt bruce@slc.com (503)690-3520 From snet@world.std.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:49 EDT 1994 Article: 222 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!world!snet From: snet@world.std.com (Glenda M Stocks) Subject: SearchNet 5085866977 Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 23:18:37 GMT Lines: 106 This BBS / Net / Mailing list message is being posted for informational purposes in echoes related to info shared in Searchnet. I am available to respond to replies. In no way should this message be considered an 'attack' of any kind against a conference or network. My interest is in sharing info only. 508-586-6977 (XBN BBS, SearchNet HeadQuarters) 617-961-4865 International Searching For Your Individual PATH Network. The SearchNet network is for people to share information via modem. We are presently looking to add new members to carry our conferences, to ensure _reliable_ connections throughout the many changes expected to occur in telecommunications. Although some of our message areas are currently available in other networks, such as Mufonet, Internet, and Fidonet, we still need hubs and nodes ready to make mail available, in case any significant changes are made in existing connections. If you are already carrying some SearchNet echoes within another network, please consider signing up for a Searchnet node number. You will still get the echoes from your existing feeds, but will _already_ be connected in the event of any changes. Since March 1993, SearchNet has been providing a wealth of information on the status of our existence and Planet Earth. In the last 17 months, we have reached a point, where SearchNet has made a _significant_ impact on the telecommunications world. If I mention the words, "New World Order", then I can also tell you that there are _forces_ at work to limit the reach of SearchNet message areas. If SearchNet has touched you in any way in the last 17 months, then it is time that you _do_ what you can, to ensure that the lines of communication, and opportunities to discuss vital issues, continue, and expand to other people. Consider touching base with SearchNet Headquarters, check out the message areas, and files, and possibly sign up for a node number _now_, for the future. Some of those reading this message on the Internet or the snet-L mailing list, should consider setting up a small bbs, to ensure connections into the future. I am very _serious_ when I tell you that evidence _exists_ showing a concerted effort to limit and disparage SearchNet message areas. The degree to which these efforts are successful, depends on your _active_ participation in connecting SearchNet _directly_ and _reliably_ across the _world_. If people who benefit from the sharing of information within SearchNet do not actively _do_ something to continue it's existence, they will lose this resource. A word to the wise, should be sufficient. It _is_ time. * SOME * of the available SEARCHNET Message Conferences I_UFO UFO and New Science EARTH_CHANGES The Current Earth Changes and Transformation WORLD_NEWS Reports of significant World Events and Weather CHANNELS Messages from the spirit planes, and Channellers. Discussions of personal growth and transformation. ORVOTRON_PUB Public conference for Orvotron activities. Orvotron is The East Coast PowerPoint, a Tranformational Vortex! The site has a 39 foot Pyramid! 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QWK format mail exchange is also available for sysops AND users. -------------------------------------------------------------------- FTP privacy.com pub/glenda GLENDA STOCKS | FidoNet 1:330/201.0 SearchNet HeadQuarters | InterNet GS@rochgte.fidonet.org Snet Mailing List info, SEND | Data: 508-586-6977 / 617-961-4865 info snet-l TO | Download SEARCHNT.ZIP For Info! majordomo@world.std.com | Voicemail: +1-617-341-6114 Searchnet.zec@channel1.com | FidoNet CHANNELS, & I_UFO moderator * RM 1.3 00257 * You're invited to the wedding; Science and Spirituality! From zkessin@world.std.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:50 EDT 1994 Article: 223 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!world!zkessin From: zkessin@world.std.com (Zach) Subject: Re: Threat List Message-ID: Organization: As little as posible References: Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 01:48:46 GMT Lines: 58 rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: >Yesterday, Duane Mantick referred to the majority of people in >our country (and probably the industrialized world) as the >"take-for-granteds", and I couldn't agree more. How many people >know how to work an ox-driven plow? Or make butter? Raise livestock? >etc. etc. all the things necessary to long term basic survival. >The "take-for-granted" label embodies much of what my attitude ISN'T >towards survival. The Ammish will be ok. [stuff about power transformers] >These stations, as you have all certainly seen, are unguarded, and apparently >no one has taken steps to armor-plate these devices. Admittedly, the >hard part is the logistics of infiltrating 5,000 fanatics into our country >without anybody finding out. It's tough, but it's not impossible. This >is something that someone like Saddam Hussein might daydream about. Who neads to infiltrate, a tourist visa or people who are already here. THere are enough people in the USA and Canada that there is someone out there who might think of this. >I realize that I'm preaching to the choir here, but I just wanted to tell >you all this story. The biblical "armageddon" may not be necessary for >us to experience profound degradations to our standard of living. Suppose >it's not 5,000 fanatics taking out the US power grid. Suppose it's just >*50* taking out the transformers in the NYC metro area. They would be >out of power not for hours, but for DAYS, maybe even a week or more! What >do you think Manhattan will smell like when the toilets stop working for a >week? can we say epidemic boys and girls? Cholora for one and God knows what else. Not to mention de-hydration and other fun things. Never mind a breakdown of the food distrabution system. >I want to propose a sort of semi-formal "threat list", a list of the >sorts of threats that we, as survivalists want to protect ourselves >from. Once the list reaches some maturity, we can address specific >scenarios and try to develop a compilation of strategies of defense. >This list is sort of ordered (according to my personal perceptions) from >most common/ most dangerous to least common / least dangerous, but it >needn't stay ordered that way: >1 Hypothermia >2 Thirst >3 Hunger >4 Sore feet >5 Bad Hygiene (lice, foot fungus, sepsis) I would up this one. In part because bad hygiene is so easy to take steps agenst. I was using port-o-jons for a 2 week period this august and was very impressed that they all had hand sanitation stuff. Also its amasing what a bit of bleach in water will do. Zach not exactly a survivalist. zkessin@world.std.com From jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Sat Sep 17 10:59:51 EDT 1994 Article: 224 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Reinforced Concrete Specifications? Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:22:00 GMT Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 15 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35ck7o$66f@nexus.uiowa.edu> References: <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu >From article <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA>, by mcalvert@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Murray Brain Calvert): > I am planning to build an earth-sheltered house in the country (None of > your business where!). I would like the structure to withstand a major > earthquake or atomic blast from 10 miles away. Get yourself a copy of the Swiss building code -- a code that requires all new construction to have basements that provide protection against firestorms and an overpressure of one bar. Basically, if the world outside is worth getting out into, the standard modern Swiss basement will protect you so you can enjoy it. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:52 EDT 1994 Article: 225 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Threat List Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 17:13:11 GMT Lines: 109 Yesterday, Duane Mantick referred to the majority of people in our country (and probably the industrialized world) as the "take-for-granteds", and I couldn't agree more. How many people know how to work an ox-driven plow? Or make butter? Raise livestock? etc. etc. all the things necessary to long term basic survival. The "take-for-granted" label embodies much of what my attitude ISN'T towards survival. Some of you may recall an article that G. Gordon Liddy wrote maybe ten years ago for OMNI magazine, entitled "An Open Memorandum to the President of the United States" where he enumerated what he thought were the top ten (or so) greatest mass terrorist threats to the United States as an industrialized nation. The one that most got my attention was a threat to our electrical power grid. Here is how he describes the threat. We have all seen a "power station", a fenced in, but otherwise unguarded compound with gravel on the ground and lots of Dr. Frankenstein looking electrical boxes, with a spiderweb of high voltage wires leading away over the horizon on those tall steel towers. These are "step-down" transformer stations, where the 120,000 or so volt long-distance power is converted to the 15,000 volt or so flavor of electricity that runs through the wires on those wooden poles around your house, apartment, etc. The 2 or 3 foot tall cans on the pole near your house further step the voltage down to 115 volts that runs through the wires in your house. Now here's the threat: those great big boxes at the 120Kv --> 15Kv stations, the cubes that are about 10 feet on a side, those things (according to Liddy) are apparently ONLY made in Germany. They each take about a year to make. There are only SO MANY of them on reserve in this country. And a .458 Winchester magnum rifle will kill them as dead as Julius Caesar. Liddy's assertion was that 5,000 soldiers of the Jihad, equipped with such rifles, if infiltrated into the country, could destroy our electrical power grid completely for several months. It would be months before even the big cities *started* to get electrical power back. Rural areas would be thrown back 100 years, and they'd *stay* that way, maybe for years. "So what?", you might ask. Think about it. Pumps use electricity to run. The pumps at the gas station. The water that comes out of your city faucet is pumped. The trucks that bring food and medicine and shoes and hammers and nails run on gasoline that comes out of those pumps. Even if you *have* an electric generator, how are you going to get gas for it? Forget about the horror of losing electric light, 911 or X-Ray machines. You won't even be able to get clean water if we lose the power grid. Think about that the next time you drive past one of those power stations. These stations, as you have all certainly seen, are unguarded, and apparently no one has taken steps to armor-plate these devices. Admittedly, the hard part is the logistics of infiltrating 5,000 fanatics into our country without anybody finding out. It's tough, but it's not impossible. This is something that someone like Saddam Hussein might daydream about. I realize that I'm preaching to the choir here, but I just wanted to tell you all this story. The biblical "armageddon" may not be necessary for us to experience profound degradations to our standard of living. Suppose it's not 5,000 fanatics taking out the US power grid. Suppose it's just *50* taking out the transformers in the NYC metro area. They would be out of power not for hours, but for DAYS, maybe even a week or more! What do you think Manhattan will smell like when the toilets stop working for a week? That's what really suprised me about the World Trade Center bombing. It's spectacular, and it got the next day's headlines. But the attack I just described would get headlines, and more headlines, and after a week, it would be the biggest story of the century. And apparently no one in our government or public utilities sector is doing anything about it. But, luckily, neither are those fanatic terrorists. Maybe those folks just don't *get* Omni magazine... ------------- I want to propose a sort of semi-formal "threat list", a list of the sorts of threats that we, as survivalists want to protect ourselves from. Once the list reaches some maturity, we can address specific scenarios and try to develop a compilation of strategies of defense. This list is sort of ordered (according to my personal perceptions) from most common/ most dangerous to least common / least dangerous, but it needn't stay ordered that way: 1 Hypothermia 2 Thirst 3 Hunger 4 Sore feet 5 Bad Hygiene (lice, foot fungus, sepsis) 6 Human Assailant 7 Incarceration 8 Animal Attack 9 Panic (I have read accounts of people, bitten by nonvenomous snakes who, due to irrational fear, went into shock and died! More common are those who panic and get injured or killed because they could not think clearly) 10 Falls (tripping, falling off ladder, etc.) 11 Automobile accident (this is your biggest threat right now! You can prepare for "the big one" all you want, but if you get killed tonight on your way home from work, none of it will have mattered) 12 Concerted Human Assault (by a group) 13 ...? ...add to this list, and we can put it in the FAQ. We can build on it and use it as a framework for our discussions. Regards, rdh From rpnelson@Netaxs.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:52 EDT 1994 Article: 226 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!isclient.merit.edu!msuinfo!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!rpnelson From: rpnelson@Netaxs.com (r.nelson) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 17 Sep 1994 02:03:16 GMT Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Lines: 32 Message-ID: <35dip4$9d6@netaxs.com> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.165947.14594@ictv.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: unix2 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Todd Hoff (tmh@ictv.com) wrote: : In article , : >I for one am not counting on Usenet or the Internet to survive : >a major disaster such as a nuclear holocaust. Even a local : >disaster such as a major flood would probably destroy my : >personal net.access. : > : >Good ol' radios might be our best best for reestablishing : >communications. What say the rest of you? : > : Since TCP/IP networks were designed to survive nuclear strikes : it's likely the internet will survive, perhaps with reduced : capability but it will survive. Your service access point may : get creamed however. internet feeds are available over the : satellite. You can dial into a remote BBS which is connected : to the internet. Or you can talk with remote hams who : are connected. We've weaved the web, it will not be easily : undone. In regional disasters/civil unrest scenarios, the internet might still be there, but what about the big stuff like major war- civil or international, or a complete collapse of national goverment? I would think that to avoid its use by "the enemy", the government would simply TURN OFF the backbone data highways. Precident-during WW1 and WW2, ham radio operators were kicked off the air for the duration. My vote would be for VHF packet with encrytion capability. If the shit really hits the fan, the government, if it still existed, would be too busy to enforce FCC regs. And if internet and "offical" ham radio is gone (transmitting of any kind is illegal), you will need all the steath you can afford. From dmercer@oracle.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:53 EDT 1994 Article: 227 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!sgiblab!gatekeeper.us.oracle.com!dcsun4.us.oracle.com!dmercer From: dmercer@oracle.com (David Mercer) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: The Gun Ban Date: 16 Sep 94 11:20:48 Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores, CA Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ap285sun.us.oracle.com In-reply-to: Tommy the Tourist's message of 15 Sep 1994 22:06:54 GMT In article <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: > I stole a MAK. I also found an 80-round drum magazine from China and a > night scope. My friend knows about a really good gunsmith with all > the tools we need to make it fully automatic. > > -------- > For more information about this anonymous posting service,please send mail > to remailer@csua.berkeley.edu with Subject: remailer-info. > -------- I discovered recently that some anonymous mailers append a paragraph like the one above automatically to overwhelm FBI/NSA or other government monitors. When you see some really weird paragraph at the end of a mostly sane post, check to see if it was anonymous. ---DBM From hdavis@usbr.gov Sat Sep 17 10:59:54 EDT 1994 Article: 228 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!borcore.usbr.gov!news From: hdavis@usbr.gov Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Survivalism=Guns Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:18:18 GMT Organization: U.S. Bureau of Reclamation Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35cnha$gih@borcore.usbr.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.5.233.29 X-Newsreader: AIR News 2.0 (SPRY, Inc.) Just my thoughts on the subject. In a survival situation, vs. a combat or post-societal-breakdown situation, a gun is usable as a tool and should be treated as such. I would not want to be stranded in the wilderness without one -- be it a single shot.22 on up to a 12 gauge. However, my primary focus would be on surviving without using a gun. Heinlien(sp?) wrote a good survival/sci-fi story called "Hole in the Sky" or some such where the main character is supposed to survive on an alien planetfor a day or two as a final grade in a survival course. Instead they get stuck for several years. He made the point that those with the large, flashy guns seem to think of themselves as predators rather than prey and tended to be the ones that killed themselves off rather quickly. And that is my main point about guns -- as long as they are used as a tool like any other, fine. But those who begin to collect/use military style guns (no flames, I am talking about those models which have several salient features such as large capacity detachable magazines, pistol grips, etc, and I must admit I have owned and do own several inthis catagory but DO NOT think of them as survival guns except and unless I would have to get my family out of a combat zone) tend to develop a mindset which is not conducive to surviving, ie., the gun can take care of the problems and forget that often times the best way to keep on breathing is to simply not be noticed. Or the predator vs. prey mindset. For a relevant discussion see the "One gun any environment" thread in rec.guns. From kovar@nda.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:55 EDT 1994 Article: 229 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!news.kgc.com!kpc!NewsWatcher!user From: kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: The Gun Ban Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:07:24 -0800 Organization: Net Daemons Associates, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> <35b1ut$979@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.52.104.196 In article <35b1ut$979@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) wrote: > In article <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: > >I stole a MAK. > > How did a common criminal like yourself get net access? If this is how much > you respect others' rights, maybe you should join ATF. > > >I also found an 80-round drum magazine from China and a > >night scope. My friend knows about a really good gunsmith with all > >the tools we need to make it fully automatic. > > Before converting it, check to make sure it's operating correctly. The > muzzle is a viewport. Look in and operate the trigger. These anonymous mailers are getting annoying. They intentionally create messages like the above to generate confusion for anyone attempting to monitor them. In so doing, they also create "flame-bait", which prompts repsonses like the above. *sigh* -David From kovar@nda.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:55 EDT 1994 Article: 230 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!news.kgc.com!kpc!NewsWatcher!user From: kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:16:00 -0800 Organization: Net Daemons Associates, Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.52.104.196 I used to be an EMT and put together my own jump kit. It has everything that I generally need while in my car, but I'd like to find something better for long term survival. Can anyone recommend a commerical first aid kit designed for long term survival that is well thought out and well put together? One reason I want something commerical is that they are generally packaged better than anything I can do myself. I have bought all the correct pieces myself, but I end up with a lot left over, and it is not as neatly packaged as I would like. -David From jdidden@Emerald.tufts.edu Sat Sep 17 10:59:56 EDT 1994 Article: 231 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!usenet.elf.com!news2.near.net!emerald.tufts.edu!emerald.tufts.edu!not-for-mail From: jdidden@Emerald.tufts.edu (Jason Didden) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Good Books: Tom Brown's Series Date: 16 Sep 1994 14:22:46 -0400 Organization: Tufts University Lines: 28 Message-ID: <35cnpm$2va@Emerald.tufts.edu> References: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com>,<35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: emerald.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] 131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 (rdh@arriva.dr.att.com) wrote: : For the biblio section of the FAQ, I'd recommend any of Tom : Brown's books. There is a "Wilderness Survival" book, a book on : tracking animals, an "Urban Survival" book, and others. I've got a list acctually and thought that maybe I could save you the trouble: Philosophy books: The Tracker The Search The Vision The Quest The Journey Grandfather Awakening Spirits Wilderness Survival Series: Tom Brown's Field Guide to City and Suburban Survival " " The Forgotten Wilderness " " Living With the Earth " " Nature and Survival for Children " " Nature Observation and Tracking " " Wilderness Survival " " Wild Edible and Medicinal Plants The publisher is Berkley Books, NY I've found that most bookstores have or will order them for you. From ctdonath@mothra.syr.EDU Sat Sep 17 10:59:57 EDT 1994 Article: 232 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!newstand.syr.edu!ctdonath From: ctdonath@mothra.syr.EDU (Carl T. Donath) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Remember Koubaton? Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:34:25 GMT Organization: Syracuse University Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <35cjjn$rf8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.syr.edu In-reply-to: PA's message of 16 Sep 1994 17:11:19 GMT In article <35cjjn$rf8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> PA writes: I am interested in getting some info on a martial art technique known as "Koubaton" The Kubotan, developed by martial arts master Tac Kubota, is available from numerous police catalogs. It's also known as the "Persuader" (name given by a prime manufacturer). Ideally, take the training course from Massad Ayoob (self-defense & police trainer, author of "In The Gravest Extreme", "Stressfire", and many other books) - try talking a local sportsman or surviaval club into having him visit & locally teach the Kubotan course along with "The Judicious Use of Deadly Force" (I can give you more details if you like - e-mail me). The Kubotan is a "pain compliance device", a ribbed cylinder which, when applied properly, can cause enough pain to drop almost anyone. It doubles as a handy keychain, which (a) keeps it handy without appearing to be a weapon (it comes in black, white, or neon orange), and (b) the keys, when attached, can be used to enhance fighting capabilities. It's completely legal in all 50 states, except on airplanes (the FAA, in their infinite lack of wisdom, classify it a weapon (but of course you may carry your pocketknife on board)). The Kubotan was developed from Tac Kubota's pen fighting technique (which had the problem of pens breaking during certain moves). Get the Police Bookshelf catalog - there should be a book about it in there somewhere. Also find out when Massad Ayoob will be in your area (the Police Bookshelf people should be able to give you pointers). -- _____/ ctdonath@rodan.acs.syr.edu Carl T Donath \_____ / The second amendment is the only right that guarantees \ \ the preservation of all other rights. / From behanna@syl.nj.nec.com Sat Sep 17 10:59:58 EDT 1994 Article: 233 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver.nj.nec.com!behanna From: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com (Chris BeHanna) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:27:45 GMT Organization: NEC Systems Laboratory, Inc. Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35co31$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> References: <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com> <35a14d$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Reply-To: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com NNTP-Posting-Host: syl.nj.nec.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] In article <35a14d$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Rosaria Locasso (locasso@tis.com) wrote: :>In article 1jv@rigel.infinet.com, lovecraf@infinet.com (Ed Michalski) writes: :>> :>> There are certain gas additives which can prolong the life of stored :>> gasoline far greater than our lifetimes. :>> :>Ed, :>Can you tell us what these additives are? Are they easily available? :>Expensive? Where can we get them? Sta-Bil is the best. It's cheap. Get it at the auto parts store. -- Chris BeHanna DoD# 114 KotSTA Ed Green 1975 CB360T - Baby Bike behanna@syl.nj.nec.com Fan Club #004 1991 ZX-11 - Zexy kore wa NEC no iken de gozaimasen. FOLMA #17 1973 RD350A - seized Why is Lon Horiuchi still breathing? 1987 EX500 - the RaceBike From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 10:59:58 EDT 1994 Article: 234 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:08:26 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 24 Message-ID: <35cmuq$kq2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35bk0e$34l@news.u.washington.edu> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com +In article <35ao6d$gsu@engnews2.eng.sun.com>, +Robert Allen wrote: + +> The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 + + I give up. Does this have something to do with the baseball +strike? Pardon my lack of distress, but I recall a similar obituary when +South Carolina required drivers to use headlights in rainy weather. + + + --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:00:00 EDT 1994 Article: 235 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:14:21 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 28 Message-ID: <35cn9t$kql@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35cmuq$kq2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article kq2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM, rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) writes: + ++In article <35ao6d$gsu@engnews2.eng.sun.com>, ++Robert Allen wrote: ++ ++> The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 ++ ++ I give up. Does this have something to do with the baseball ++strike? Pardon my lack of distress, but I recall a similar obituary when ++South Carolina required drivers to use headlights in rainy weather. That's the date that the Crime Bill passed. Aside from banning nearly 300 guns either by name or the fact that they hold more than 10 rounds, the law also increases the number of death penalty crimes, funds drug courts and drug jails (on abandoned military bases, i.e. like concentration camps), and forces more mandatory federal programs on the states. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:01 EDT 1994 Article: 236 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? In-Reply-To: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com's message of 16 Sep 1994 19:46:02 GMT Message-ID: <1994Sep17.031154.26790@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics References: <35cslq$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 03:11:54 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 83 In <35cslq$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com writes: > based around carrying lots of meds and advanced stuff (usually sutures > and narcotics). With this approach there's a great potential for making > things worse, which defeats the whole purpose. I recently started putting together a first-aid kit and made a list of things that I new how to use and would want to have in a pinch. I didn't include things like cervical collars and IV's because I'm not an EMT and wouldn't know what to do with them. Basicly, I wanted to be able to handle the commonest of injuries long enough to give the pros a chance to respond, if necessary, and to be able to handle those little annoyances (like colds and bug bites) that make being outside miserable. You will notice that most of the materials are for treating minor wounds. I suspect that in a real survival situation, with a breakdown in our personal hygiene, we would be really susceptible to infected cuts. Most people can be trained with minimum effort to check for and treat problems with 'breathing, bleading and shock'. Hence the profusion of bandages and a couple space blankets (maybe one of those plastic airways, but I don't know how much training beyond basic mouth-to-mouth they require). Anyway, here's the list Hot Pack Cold Pack 3 x 5 military-style bandages (are these Carlisle Bandages?) Ace bandage adhesive tape betadine neosporin 'band-aid' type bandages 2" adhesive gauze pads 2" gauze pads 4" gauze pads 2" gauze strip/bandage scissors penny cutters cigarette lighter (quick sterilization of needles and fire starter) straight pins (survivalists get splinters, too) tweezers felt tip permanent marker (...I will mark the casualty's forhead with a 'T'...) x-acto knife vaseline isopropyl alcohol soap wash-n-dry towlettes burn bandages (the water/gel based things) penlight cotton balls space blanket (for preventing shock or hypothermia) ibuprofen aspirin acetaminophen sudafed some oral antihistimine benadryl spray (my wife is sensitive to bug bites) ammonia (smelling salt replacement and takes the itch out of mosquito bites) cold medcine bactine ben-gay tinactin throat losenges clorox (can be used to treat questionable water in a pinch) q-tips -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:01 EDT 1994 Article: 237 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers In-Reply-To: alb0@roger.gte.com's message of 16 Sep 1994 20:28:10 GMT Message-ID: <1994Sep17.032148.27410@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.135348.9363@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> <35cv4q$5us@ceylon.gte.com> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 03:21:48 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 45 In <35cv4q$5us@ceylon.gte.com> alb0@roger.gte.com writes: > > Or if you're into real security, you'd encrypt using a well-designed > one-time pad and then transmit spread-spectrum. Clipper my *ss! :-) > The other advantage is that detecting spread spectrum is pretty > hard...interestingly, spread spectrum is legal in the amatuer > bands. I'm not familiar with spread spectrum. My ARRL membership lapsed a couple years ago and I haven't been keeping up :-( . > signal against static and the like). I think F3E emmissions > are prohibited in the CB bands. Actually, I was thinking about using HF packet equipment at the slower bit-rate and using the standard tones and AM. Is that A3? I ferget... > As usual, I tried to connive a solution...how about getting a board > that automatically sends/receives morse from a computer file? > Thus, you take a file, PGP it, send it to your morse board, > it gets send out as a PGP message in morse (thus passing the > emission as an A1 or J1), and the signal is detected on the > other end. Ugly and inefficient, but it might work... Actually, I LIKE it! There are certain advantages to A1 emissions like they would not be readily apparent to the casual AM listener and they would propagate better than AM through QRM er... Noise and fading (sorry, forgot where I was for a minute...) -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:02 EDT 1994 Article: 238 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Re: Why fully automatics? In-Reply-To: cg0898@u.cc.utah.edu's message of 16 Sep 1994 16:30:44 -0600 Message-ID: <1994Sep17.033531.28037@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics References: <35d6ak$brn@u.cc.utah.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 03:35:31 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 35 In <35d6ak$brn@u.cc.utah.edu> cg0898@u.cc.utah.edu writes: > > Here's one for a thread...What are some reasons to having a fully > automatic rifle for survival? The scenario is that society has collapsed, As far as I can see, a good semi-auto, pump, lever or bolt-action would be plenty in any conceivable situation.... > of 30-06 caliber or larger and save ammo. It would be perfectly adequate > for defending myself and family, and would also serve for hunting without > the complicated action and no ammo wasted. Any thoughts? I'm curious. What do you have in mind that is larger than 30-06. I guess 12-guage magnum slugs would qualify as would a .50 BMG rifle, but I would think these would be a bit big for home defense (press hard, you're making three copies...). Now if the bad guys happen to be arriving in APC's that's a different story, but then you've got some REALLY big problems.... -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From hdavis@usbr.gov Sat Sep 17 11:00:03 EDT 1994 Article: 239 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!borcore.usbr.gov!news From: hdavis@usbr.gov Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: COMPUTERS Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:54:11 GMT Organization: U.S. Bureau of Reclamation Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35cpkj$iae@borcore.usbr.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.5.233.29 X-Newsreader: AIR News 2.0 (SPRY, Inc.) I do hate to tell you folks this, but since I do work with the net I can say that it is not set up to survive any sort of majordisaster, let alone a nuclear war. The MILITARY version of the internet (MILNET) is designed as much as possible to withstand nuclear strikes. A lot of backup communications capacity via sat links is devoted to this, but how much you want to bet we peons get to use it? Point in case, Denver gets a lot of lightening strikes during the summer. We have a Stratacom IPX switch as well as a Cisco 7000 router. They sit on the floor and are grounded. A lightening strike *near* the building downed them. This was only secondary EM radiation which did this. Can you image what a full scale EMP will do to IC components? And how about power? A few data centers are set up with backup generator capacity. Most of them only have a few hours to a couple of days of fuel on hand. And how about the TELCO CO's? Take out the power grid (ala Andrew) and phone service is *out* until power comes back. And the lease lines the internet rides on are going to be some of the last ones restored. Emergency service providers come back first (at least when I worked with CD officials out in Hawaii that was the plan). Get a good CB radio and asupply of batteries as well as one of those solar powered rechargers (full day in sunshine should recharge up to four D cells). From bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:04 EDT 1994 Article: 240 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!oucsace!bjohnson From: bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Benjamin Johnson) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens References: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:45:18 GMT Lines: 26 In article falstaff@netcom.com (anthony m. vervoort) writes: >rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: > >>Henry T Robertson (htrst1+@pitt.edu) wrote: >>: In article , >>: Benjamin Johnson wrote: > >>: >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >>: >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. > >>: There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves >>: from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. > >>*****What relevance does this have to this newsgroup? > > >yeah, if you want to go trolling, try the personals newsgroups. > >"You're pretty funny, for a fuckin' idiot." -Adam Sadler XOXOXOXO, BJ From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:05 EDT 1994 Article: 241 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Curing Meat Date: 16 Sep 1994 15:12:48 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 14 Message-ID: <35cqng$1oi@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Can someone knowledgeable on this subject please post instructions on how to properly cure / smoke and preserve meat from a big game animal? I'm an experience deer and small game hunter but I have no experience in preserving the meat with means other then a freezer. Thanks for the help. ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:06 EDT 1994 Article: 242 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!male.EBay.Sun.COM!antizen!greg From: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com (Yes, I'm still here...) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:33:45 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 36 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35crup$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com Gary asks; >I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can >anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, >hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. I'm not a "knife expert" but I talk knives frequently with those who know alot about them. What I've learned can be summed up in "Greg's law of knife selection". "The more you pay for a knife, the less you'll use it" I bought a Marine Corp. bowie (yes, the same one you've all seen around since WW II) from Robert Allen's specialty company and then paid a little extra to have it custom sharpened. Actually, Robert sold it too me with a working edge that he put on himself, but I got anal about it. Oh well. THEN I spent a few more dollars on a really bitchin sheath, made by Eagle, from Cutlery Shoppe. It's cordura, can be tied or worn a million different ways, and has a nice pocket in it. I value the sheath more than them knife. I can use the knife. If I screw it up, I can replace it in a day. Don't even think of knife throwing as a defensive or offensive combat technique. If you miss, you just gave away a deadly weapon to your enemy who will be glad to return it to you - point first. Greg P.S. Actually, I've been eyeing the knew SOG brand SEAL's issue knife B^) From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:06 EDT 1994 Article: 243 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Threat List Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:46:13 GMT Lines: 9 oops, in my last message, I said "biggest story of the century". I was thinking "decade" but my fingers weren't listening! I would think that WWII and the Apollo Moon Landings (for starters) would eclipse such an attack on NYC easily. sorry, rdh From locasso@tis.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:07 EDT 1994 Article: 244 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Ratings system... Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:35:19 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 42 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35cs1n$g50@shemesh.tis.com> References: <35aa9u$nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu, abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) writes: > A couple posts have stressed the need for PRIORITIES: what's more important, a > gun or a can opener, a radio or surplus blankets. Good questions. I hope reason, rather than hysteria, can guide our discussions of how to be prepared. > I propose a ratings system for use within the group, something which could > allow someone to post: "I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo > should be a category 2 item." and everyone could tell what they were saying, > rather than having to describe the conditions under which items would be > necessary. I'm thinking of something like > > Rating Description > > 1 Absolutely Necessary > 2 Necessary > 3 Important > 4 Useful > 5 Luxury > 6 Stupid > 7 Dangerous > > I'm new at this, so let the flames begin!!! Not flaming you, but I bet we would spend years trying to clarify the difference between Important and Useful, trying to agree on where the line is drawn between Absolute Necessary and Necessary. We'd have to start a new newsgroup just to talk about this! :-) Why not just let the writer say "I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo are necessary"? Rosaria Locasso From greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:08 EDT 1994 Article: 245 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!koriel!male.EBay.Sun.COM!antizen!greg From: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com (Yes, I'm still here...) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:46:02 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 31 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35cslq$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com David asks; > I used to be an EMT and put together my own jump kit. It has everything >that I generally need while in my car, but I'd like to find something >better for long term survival. Adventure Medical Kits puts out the closest to what you're probably looking for, IMHO. Frankly, I believe in "training first". Carry what you know how to use. Lots of people ask about kits who don't have any current training, or whose training is not appropriate. The approach for them seems to be based around carrying lots of meds and advanced stuff (usually sutures and narcotics). With this approach there's a great potential for making things worse, which defeats the whole purpose. But, to each their own. Western Mountaineering, in San Jose CA, carries the full line of Adventure kits. You might want to call them and get a number to recieve a catalogue. Greg From behanna@syl.nj.nec.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:09 EDT 1994 Article: 246 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver.nj.nec.com!behanna From: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com (Chris BeHanna) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:20:50 GMT Organization: NEC Systems Laboratory, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35cr6i$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Reply-To: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com NNTP-Posting-Host: syl.nj.nec.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] In article <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> bucket O brains (bw004b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu) wrote: :>I personaly like the M-16. What more could you ask for? I mean apart from :>the necesity of keeping it very clean. It's light, very accurate, more :>powerfull than you will ever need, and has excelent range. I can't see :>needing more than 550m of pin point accuracy, and 800m of area target :>accuracy. As for the ammo, 5.56 should not be that hard to find after a :>revolution because of vast amount that the goverment has sould not be hard to :>get a hold of. O well it's too bad I can't get one for my self. Pitty Col. Cooper holds the M-16 in contempt and recommends the M-1 in its place. Can't get that either, EXCEPT that you can buy it used from someone who legally owned it before Tuesday, as transfers of grandfathered weapons are also grandfathered. Good luck trying to find someone to give theirs up, though. Tip: someone said you could reload using white-tipped matches for primers. Anyone have any info on this? It would seem to be survival-relevant. -- Chris BeHanna DoD# 114 KotSTA Ed Green 1975 CB360T - Baby Bike behanna@syl.nj.nec.com Fan Club #004 1991 ZX-11 - Zexy kore wa NEC no iken de gozaimasen. FOLMA #17 1973 RD350A - seized Why is Lon Horiuchi still breathing? 1987 EX500 - the RaceBike From decastro@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:10 EDT 1994 Article: 247 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!decastro From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 04:35:28 GMT Lines: 24 jdf7@po.cwru.edu (Jeremy Friesen) writes: >In article <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu >(Shane Patrick Ahern) wrote: >> Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications >> in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as >> constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? >Unfortunatly, in a serious disaster (earthquake, comet collision, Nuke >ware), internet access would more than likely be SERIOUSLY disrupted. If >it did still function, then yes, it might prove useful for survivors to >communicate. Gee. When we were designing the internet back in '70, one of the things we especially planned on was survival after a nuke war. It's self routing, and multipathing. If you can get a connection (that's your problem, but after the Northridge earthquake I didnt have phones or power, but I was on the net). -- ============================================================================ decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! -Don't Tread On Me!- ============================================================================ From waddell@firnvx.firn.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:10 EDT 1994 Article: 248 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!mailer.acns.fsu.edu!news From: waddell@firnvx.firn.edu (Kathy Waddell) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Needs (Was Threat List) Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:17:07 GMT Organization: Florida Info Resource Network Lines: 76 Message-ID: <35cug3$eu2@mailer.fsu.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: kathy.firn.edu X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 In article , rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) says: > ... >This list is sort of ordered (according to my personal perceptions) from >most common/ most dangerous to least common / least dangerous, but it >needn't stay ordered that way: > >1 Hypothermia >2 Thirst >3 Hunger >4 Sore feet >5 Bad Hygiene (lice, foot fungus, sepsis) >6 Human Assailant >7 Incarceration >8 Animal Attack >9 Panic >... Instead of listing these under the heading of threats, I would prefer to list needs for survival: 1 air 2 water 3 food 4 clothing 5 shelter 6 medical supplies 7 hygienic supplies 8 tools 9 supportive attitude etc Attitude: I don't plan to merely survive, I plan to thrive. When a person has allowed fear and panic to take over then it doesn't matter how many gadgets and supplies they have to survive. They're life isn't worth living anyway, IMO. The right mental attitude is probably more imortant than any practicle preparations. By all means make plans, gather stuff, be prepared. But don't be so locked into things going the way you plan that when things don't you won't be able to addapt. When talking about survival there are 2 main kinds, short-term emergency survival and long-term survival. Short-term and long-term survival will require different ways to supply the basic needs. In short-term survival, gathering emergency supplies and planning will probably be best done in small groups working independently. In long- term survival I think a small community of people working together is necessary. In such a situation knowledge is power. Learn some useful skills. Posessions can be stolen, whether they are food, tools or guns. Your knowledge and ability will be your most valuable assets. After that speel about attitude now to the practicle. I would like to see developed a list or several lists of equipment and supplies for emergency or short-term survival. This type of survival could be broken down into 3 areas. The first area would be for the home or some permanent shelter, the next area would be equivalent to car camping and the third would be equivalent to back-packing. I am especially interested in ways to supply water for each of these scenarios. Could the FAQ, or multiple FAQs if the one gets too large, cover each of the basic needs, whatever we decide they may be. A FAQ or section about water could contain basic instructions on various techniques that would address emergency to long-term solutions. It could contain references to catalogues for ordering equipment and book recommendations for more info. What do you all think? --- Have fun! =-Kathy-> waddell@firnvx.firn.edu From hall@macs.ico.tek.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:11 EDT 1994 Article: 249 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!news.tek.com!macs!macs!not-for-mail From: hall@macs.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Magnetic Pole Navigation Date: 16 Sep 1994 12:49:10 -0700 Organization: Maxim Integrated Products, Beaverton OR. Lines: 233 Message-ID: <35csrm$m6@macs.ico.tek.com> References: <35cbt5$7vn@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: macs.ico.tek.com Unless you are right on top of the magnetic pole a compass will work. It may point east, west, or even south in the vicinity of the magnetic poles but the important things are: 1. The compass points in a consistent direction (it will unless you are going around the pole), and 2. You know how to use it, including how to compensate for declination. 3. You know other navigation things like paying attention to where you are, terrain etc., how to read a map etc. Here is something I posted previously on rec.backcountry on how not to get lost: How can a person avoid getting lost? A good question and there is probably no simple answer. However, there are some tried and true techniques which help. I think it is helpful to divide this subject into two rather broad categories: I. Developing a "feel" for the land, a sort of mental map. I think we all do this more or less with our home territory. We know which streets intersect and approximately how they relate to each other. Most of us have little trouble finding our way between our homes, work, friends houses, etc. We usually have a sort of mental map of this familiar terrain. When we visit Joe we just go to his house, we don't have to think about going so many blocks one way then looking for street names etc. When we arrive in unfamiliar surroundings it helps to quickly start developing something similar for them. II. "Formal" navigation using compass, altimeter or other aids (including some natural ones). This is the technique which allows a person to go from one place to another based on information from a map or directions from someone else. This can be anything from following a road map to an unfamiliar town to a complicated cross- country hike with many intermediate landmarks requiring compass bearings etc. This type of navigation seems less natural and usually requires more effort to learn. However it is necessary in unfamiliar territory. It can also help us more quickly form the "mental map" of the first type of navigation. In the following list I will not attempt to distinguish which techniques fit which category. Many of them fit both. The best navigators use both anyway. It is helpful to combine them, eg. use "formal" navigation to help develop a mental map and the mental map to supplement the formal techniques. 1. Simply be alert to your surroundings, especially as you travel. Most of us use a variety of clues to help know where we are. Most of these clues are visual although sounds and even smells can help. (The rotting animal carcass can provide a very memorable smell to be recognized on the way back). The person who pays attention to trees, rocks, hills, streams, etc. will have a great advantage over the guy who simply looks at the trail in front of him. Try to look at features from several different angles as you move. Try to put together in your mind how different features relate to each other and to your route. (Of course being alert to surroundings also enhances your enjoyment of the outdoors, the reason most of us are there in the first place.) 2. Try to keep track of your directions and associate them with the territory around you. For example, notice not only the odd shaped hill, but notice that it is northeast of you and runs approximately east and west. Try to be aware of the direction the trail is going. Notice that that hill is ahead of you on the trail, then off to the right a bit as the trail turns. A compass is handy to keep track of the direction the trail runs. Again you are trying to form a mental picture of the territory and how it is oriented. Some of us are better at this than others but I think we can all improve with practice. 3. Occasionally look behind you to see how the territory will look on the return trip. Be especially diligent at all junctions or anywhere else the trail is not glaringly obvious. All those odd tree branches and readily recognizable rocks will look very different from the other direction. 4. Learn to use a compass reasonably well. You may not need to take a bearing to within 2 degrees but you should be able to figure out which way is north. This means understanding declination (unless you will only be in areas where declination is less than about 5 degrees). Learn to go back the direction you came from using your compass (see "back bearing" below). 4a. If you are likely to travel after dark or in a whiteout, learn to use the compass *well*. Learn to follow a bearing, a back bearing, detour around something and get back on route, etc. Learn how accurately you can follow a bearing under different conditions and how to compensate for that inaccuracy (offset bearings, landmarks etc). If your night or whiteout travel will be in mountainous areas get an altimeter and learn to use it (and what its limitations are). All compass, altimeter, and map techniques are best learned by practice in familiar surroundings under good conditions. It's a bit late to learn when you are in a howling blizzard. 5. Use the compass *long before* you get lost, including at the trailhead and at several intermediate points. The object is to help develop a "feel" for which direction you are traveling and to learn which way you go out so you know which direction you must go to return. It does little good to know which direction is which when you are lost unless you have some idea of which way to go. (Well, let's see. North is that way, South is opposite and East is that way. But which direction is the $#^%^$@* car?) In fact it is a good idea at the trailhead to get out your map and compass and orient the map with the terrain. Put the map so that map north is true north and look around. Identify the direction you plan to travel and as many landmarks as you can. If you don't have a map, at least do this with the compass and look at terrain features, the direction the trail goes, etc. Be sure you know which direction *you* are facing when you look at landmarks. 6. Learn to recognize nature's direction indicators. For example moss does not always grow on the north side of trees but it commonly does grow on a preferred side which varies with location and depends on the prevailing winds. Be aware that these indicators may change from place to place as the prevailing winds change. This can occur in quite short distances if hills affect the wind. (Of course in places like the northwest, moss can grow on all sides of the trees. Maybe you can look for which side has the thinnest coat of moss.) Tree branches can also be affected by prevailing winds. The sun and shadows can also give indications of direction if you take time of day into account (remember to account for daylight savings time). These indicators are usually not very precise (except for the north star or astronomical readings taken with specialized equipment). However they can help you keep a general idea of which direction is which. If the moss on trees was to your left and suddenly you notice it is toward you, maybe you changed direction without noticing. Check your compass or otherwise find out what happened. 7. Unless you are certain you will *never* leave the trail, learn to use an offset bearing and linear landmarks. 8. Learn to read a map. Try to carry a good map of the area you are in. However even if you don't have a map with you the experience of knowing how to use one will help with your ability to construct your own mental map of the territory. 9. *Never* place all your trust in someone else. Spouses, "knowledgable" friends, SO's, party leaders all make mistakes. Try to keep track of where you are yourself. If you feel lost ask the leader for help or for time to orient yourself. This will promote safety on that trip and help you learn for the times you are on your own. If the leader can't or won't help don't go with him/her again (if you get back that time). Good leaders recognize that (a) they make occasional mistakes and a crosscheck is useful and (b) occasionally people get separated from the group and they better have some idea where they are. The only exception I can think of is the rare case when speed becomes important to safety (eg. you gotta' get off the mountain before the storm hits). Then the leader may be justified in asking you to just follow. (He should, however, remain open to questions while you move.) There are a couple of tricks which make use of the compass easier. I. Shooting a "back bearing." The compass is handy for going back the way you came from. To use this you need to set the "direction of travel" when you go out. (See directions which come with your compass, I won't attempt to describe it here.) The usual technique is to add or subtract 180 degrees from that bearing to find the return bearing. It works if you don't make a mistake but is unnecessarily complicated. Even the best of us can make simple arithmetic errors, especially when we're tired, cold, and in a hurry. A much simpler technique is to simply turn the compass around and pretend the south needle is the north. This always gives an exact reversal of direction. II. Offset bearings (also known as "aiming off"). It's nice to know that if you travel for 5 miles on a bearing of 213 degrees magnetic you will be back at the trailhead. The problem is that most of us are doing very well if we can stay within 3 degrees of a bearing, even worse in anything but open country. In 5 miles a 3 degree error will put you off course by a quarter of a mile! You will probably miss your target and if you come to the road you won't know which way to walk. The solution is to make a deliberate error in a known direction. Determine how accurately you can set and follow a bearing, then aim that far to a given side. Pick a linear landmark (road, stream, etc., also known as a "handrail") and when you arrive at it follow it back to a known location such as your car or a recognizable stream crossing. This is the recommended technique, for example, to get off Mt. Hood in a whiteout. In that case, people can aim to the east or west of the lift line. Then when the altimeter (or a good guess) says they are well below the top of the lift they simply turn the appropriate direction, find the lift, and walk down under it. If somebody tried this without knowing which way to the lift he could easily go the wrong direction and end up either on White River Glacier or among the cliffs of Zig-Zag Canyon, both potentially dangerous places. And one trick to make your maps easier to use: Draw north-south lines on them and declination lines (that is, lines running magnetic north-south as well as true north-south). These lines should be about an inch apart so when you place a typical compass on the map there is always a north-south line and a declination line under it. This is much easier if you have access to a drafting table. This is not intended to be a comprehensive course in cross-country navigation. It is intended to give some suggestions. You won't learn navigation by reading anyway. Practice, practice, practice. When you try something and it doesn't work, try to figure out why and what you can do better next time. Try to find someone good at navigation and spend time with him/her in the field watching, asking questions, and learning. How much of an expert you need to become will depend on what activities you engage in but be sure your skills are up to your activity. If in doubt try something easier and save that particular trip for when you have improved. Finally, be sure somebody knows where you are going, when you plan to return and who to notify if you don't come back. If all else fails and you get lost (or injured) nobody will come looking for you until the proper authority (usually the sheriff's dept.) is notified. Even when the search starts it will be much more effective if searchers know your destination, not just where you parked your car. Even if you get very good with all these techniques there is no guarantee you will not get lost. If that happens, first sit down and relax a bit. Sometimes just a pause will allow you to reorient yourself. Your mind will be much more effective if you can remain calm. Get out your compass and see which way is north. (You do have one don't you? And you did orient yourself at the trailhead, right?) If you have no compass try to find a natural direction indicator (North Star, drive a stick in the ground and see which way the shadow moves etc.). Look around for distinctive landmarks (but be careful before you decide that that hill is the same one you saw from camp. Don't let similar hills fool you.) In the best case you may discover where you are and be able to return without problems. If this doesn't work consider yourself lost and act accordingly. From hall@macs.ico.tek.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:12 EDT 1994 Article: 250 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!news.tek.com!macs!macs!not-for-mail From: hall@macs.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: THREAT IDENTIFICATION (was "Gas Mask") Date: 16 Sep 1994 13:12:23 -0700 Organization: Maxim Integrated Products, Beaverton OR. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <35cu77$2sk@macs.ico.tek.com> References: <359tvr$b9k@uudell.us.dell.com> <35bdgk$h7r@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: macs.ico.tek.com In article rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: >When you ask about whether the organic vapor cartridges for the >breathers available at the hardware store "are supposed to be good", >you need to consider "good for what?" If you live near a chemical >plant, find out what chemicals they have there. Learn to read the >OSHA four-part square chemical warning labels. Excellent idea. >Learn to read the codes on Semi-trailer truck tankers (for example >"1203" is gasoline, I think). That's a lot of codes to memorize (and try to recall in a high adrenelin situation). Trucks carry the four-part chemical warning label too. I would just use that. > Suppose you are in your car and collide with >a truck carrying liquid nitrogen. The tank breaks open, and you >are trapped in your car. Nitrogen gas envelops your car and you >begin to breath it in. This will not hurt you immediately, but the >nitrogen will begin to affix itself to the hemoglobin (or some such >thing) in your blood, preventing your blood cells from carrying >oxygen around in your body, so after a certain amount of time, you >will suffocate, even if you can make it out to "good" air. You must have nitrogen (N2) confused with carbon monoxide (CO). CO does what you describe but I don't think it is likely to be hauled around in a truck. It is produced by automotive exhausts however which is why you should never run an engine in an enclosed space or operate a vehicle with a faulty exhaust. Nitrogen is the major component of our atmosphere, about 80% of what you breath is N2. The only way it could hurt you is either with the cold (liquid N2 is very cold) or if there is so much it displaces the oxygen you need. Either is unlikely in an accident such as you describe. From tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:13 EDT 1994 Article: 251 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!Starbase.NeoSoft.COM!tapeworm From: tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com (Joe Bushong) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:53:10 GMT Organization: NeoSoft Internet Services +1 713 684 5969 Lines: 62 Message-ID: <35e086$s2j@uuneo.neosoft.com> References: <35cvt8$g50@shemesh.tis.com> <35d3ak$mcv@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: starbase.neosoft.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] *WARNING* everything that follows is just MY opinion! (And I hate having to start every sentence with "In my opinion,..." so it's implied from now on) The most important thing about a "survival knife" is having it with you in a survival situation. Period. It doesn't matter if you've got an awsome outragously expensive knife in the car, at home, whatever... If something bad happens - you need a knife immediately and have to have it on you. To me, this limits the discussion to medium sized folding knives for unplanned events. I carry a Swiss army knife 24-7 (OK...whenever I am wearing pants...). I have owned my Victornox Huntsman for many (+5 now) years. I find it to be the perfect size for keeping in my back pocket alongside my wallet. It is the perfect width to hold easily in the hand (mine at least...). The giant Swiss Army knives are MUCH to wide to be useful...and half of the junk on them is dead weight anyways. The Huntsman has the perfect selection of tools. The saw is excelent (cross cut?)and will cut down a 3-4 inch tree. I bought the Boy Scout version (heh...I was a Boy Scout at the time...never knock an organization that teaches honor as a virture) and feel that ALL Swiss Army Knives should have a Philips-head screwdriver in place of the corkscrew. The Swiss might carry bottles of wine with them for all I know but in the "real world", the corkscrew is pretty much useless. Both the large and the small blades can be made extremely sharp (I use a Lansky sharpening kit with a diamond Fine hone as my final step). All in all, the perfect knife. Very moderately priced at $30 or so. Also makes a great gift (trust me...they will love you for it...) The Leatherman tools are very nice but are more of "a pair of pliers with a knife on them" than the other way around. In my day-to-day life, I just don't seem to need a pair of needle nosed pliers all that frequently, and when I do, I bring a pair along. I know people who swear that the Leatherman tool is the greatest invention since fire, and if it works for them...who am I to argue. I would also consider the Spyderco Clipits series as great carry knives. They can be opened with one hand (with practice this becomes automatic). They come in a variety of sizes (go with the Zytel plastic handled ones, the stainless ones are heavy and expensive). My only reservation is not being able to sharpen the serrated versions but I have had friends tell me that the special SpyderEdge pattern never seems to get dull. And did I mention the full range of handle colors...All in all, probably a much better "knife" than my Swiss, but definitely not a better "tool". I also own a Cold Steel SRK sheath knife which I would carry if there wasn't a stigma against large, openly carried, sheath knives. The SRK is an excelent knife and will do everything that an expensive hand-made knife will do. Cost me $50, which is an tremendous value/cost ratio. K-Bars are the same way and they are available everywhere. I just can't see putting any hard use on a knife that I couldn't afford to replace ,and if you own a "work knife" what's the point of you having the "good knife"? The Carbon-V steel will rust in the places you scratch off the black coating. The handle on the SRK (and all Cold Steel knives) is perfect. They have knife ergonomics down pat. It feels exactly right. If it ever came down to a "me and one item" senario, my SRK is what I would bring. I don't think there can be any higher praise than that. If you are interested in the best prices for knives, email me. I have a couple of knife catalogs. Tapeworm From pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:14 EDT 1994 Article: 252 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!pyotr From: pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: PRIORITIES...PRIORITIES Date: 17 Sep 1994 04:56:09 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <35dst9$8d9@news.halcyon.com> References: <35a1pm$dhl@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes: >OKAY!...Now we are cooking on all burners... >... Add "COMMUNICATIONS" to the list.............BUT... >...Where to draw the line?... Given my druthers ... I'll take a fully stocked missle sub (just replace the missles with "useful" items), with a fresh charge in the reactor. Take it to 'sea' or bury it on the farm, attach utilities, and we are set. Power, lights, communications doors that close, a full kitchen, hot showers, plumbing, the complete library, etc, etc. Fully self contained, I can seal me and mine off from the outside contamination (plague, fallout, flood, storm, vinyl siding salemen.). Of course there are a few drawbacks - like getting one in working order. Details. That's the idea, but as the discussion went some years ago, just my luck, I'm across town buying the last roll of TP when the balloon goes up, and theres my wonder shelter unaccessable. Selah. Other things to keep in mind - fiscal realities preclude me from doing more than think about it. My resources are at their limits dealing with the here and now (One good thing about the collapse of Civilization: there goes my debt load.) Anyway -earthquake is the concern for me (Nothing like having a geologist for a good friend) Seattle is due for The Big One(tm) Real Soon Now. Any sugestions for some one living on the second floor in the U-district? chus pyotr -- pyotr@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl. God is my co-pilot. But the Devil's my bombadier, and I don't know who the Tail Gunner is! Bring back the Ghengis Khan World Tour! From alb0@roger.gte.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:15 EDT 1994 Article: 253 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!ceylon!roger.gte.com!alb0 From: alb0@roger.gte.com (Andrew Betz) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:28:10 GMT Organization: Idaho City University Lines: 35 Message-ID: <35cv4q$5us@ceylon.gte.com> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.135348.9363@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: roger.gte.com In article <1994Sep16.135348.9363@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, Bill VanRemmen wrote: >If you want a SECURE communications network, encryption is essential, but >encryption is illegal on the Ham Bands. Or if you're into real security, you'd encrypt using a well-designed one-time pad and then transmit spread-spectrum. Clipper my *ss! :-) The other advantage is that detecting spread spectrum is pretty hard...interestingly, spread spectrum is legal in the amatuer bands. >What about a system that would allow a user to enter a message on his PC, >encrypt it, and send it to a distant station using a network of CB's set up as >digipeaters? Technically, this is possible with existing equipment. It would be a lot easier to modulate an FM signal as opposed to an AM, for all of the reasons that FM is used now (e.g., better signal against static and the like). I think F3E emmissions are prohibited in the CB bands. >It might be illegal, though to send digital signals on the Citizen's Band. >Anyone got a copy of the FCC regs for this band? As usual, I tried to connive a solution...how about getting a board that automatically sends/receives morse from a computer file? Thus, you take a file, PGP it, send it to your morse board, it gets send out as a PGP message in morse (thus passing the emission as an A1 or J1), and the signal is detected on the other end. Ugly and inefficient, but it might work... Drew -- alb0@gte.com "The new Gestapo in America." -- Gerry Spence on the BATF From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Sat Sep 17 11:00:15 EDT 1994 Article: 254 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: 17 Sep 1994 06:15:27 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 10 Message-ID: <35e1hv$ijl$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com> References: <1994Sep17.031154.26790@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> > felt tip permanent marker (...I will mark the casualty's > forhead with a 'T'...) What does this mean... a "T"? -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Those that beat guns into plows will plow for those that don't. From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:16 EDT 1994 Article: 255 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <35ckdh$k97@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:34:01 GMT Lines: 28 The best all purpose "knife" I ever had was the Leatherman tool. This had a 3" knife (good for many camping chores, but not all), a can opener, phillips screwdriver and two flat head screwdrivers, a file and a few other attachments. The whole thing unfolds into a pair of pliers/ wire cutters, and on the spine is a ruler that (while being a bit hard to read in certain light conditions) had both inches and centimeters. It was the most useful tool I ever had and I always had it with me. But I was working on my car in the twilight one evening, and I didn't notice it sitting on the bumper in the low light as I cleaned up my other tools. Either someone took it that night or the next morning, or it fell off the bumper the next time I drove the car! Bummer. To replace it, some friends bought me a similiar "multi-tool" from SOG. What appealed to me about this tool was that the pliers didn't have the edges facing my palms like the leatherman tool did. The leatherman tool can really leave some deep red marks on your palms when you use those pliers! But once I actually tried using the SOG tool, I realized what a pain in the butt it is to unfold and use. I don't like the SOG tool. Gerber also has one, with spring loaded pliers. It also looks like a hassle to operate. Stick with the leatherman tool, I swear by 'em. Life- time guarantee too! And they can be had for a little as $35. I'm gonna have to pick another one up somewhere. If you wear it on your belt, you'll be amazed how often you use it. Just keep a rag handy to wrap around the handles when you need the pliers! rdh From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:17 EDT 1994 Article: 256 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:38:44 GMT Lines: 7 As an EMT, you must have a good idea of what exactly should go into such a kit. Would you please share the contents of your homemade kit with us, Mr. Kovar? Thanks! rdh From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:18 EDT 1994 Article: 257 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Hanging Out in Utah's Deserts Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.055132.13720@ultb.isc.rit.edu> <35co1q$r3a@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:47:50 GMT Lines: 108 In article <35co1q$r3a@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) writes: |> In article <1994Sep16.055132.13720@ultb.isc.rit.edu> lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes: |> >Does 4 1/2 months hiking around the Utah desert count. I was in a survival |> >program out there. |> |> Cool. What did you learn? I too am very interested in this. The message I sent on rec.travel which I have reproduced below led to some suggestions, including to get a map which shows what land belongs to BLM, and camp on that for free. That is my current plan. What's the scoop on carrying/shooting a .22 rifle on BLM or Nat'l/State Forest land? Where in Utah would you recommend I go, lso8219? Article: 51775 of rec.travel From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Stop the Merry-Go-Round, I Want to Get Off Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:18:55 GMT Hello! I am planning to quit my job, get rid of my furniture, throw my cats in the truck and hit the road. I have a small truck with an aluminum topper. There are crank-open style windows on the sides, with nylon mosquito netting. I bought a 4" thick piece of foam from an upholstery place that covers the whole truck bed. It is more comfortable than some actual beds I have slept on. I will probably build a false floor in the truck bed for storage purposes, and put the foam on that. I will have approximately $1000 to keep me going, after which it's back to the work-week structure thing. If I can keep my costs down below $16 a day, I can last for two months. Some of the problems I have to solve before leaving are: - bathing - laundry - cooking and food storage - organizing my equipment and developing an efficient storage plan - first aid planning - basic car repair kit - etc. etc. My original plan was to disappear into the deserts of northern Nevada and Utah with enough food, water and gasoline for a week or two at a time, for about 5 or 6 months (or until it starts to get really hot). But my truck is not a four wheel drive vehicle, and it has some engine problems. I am hesitant to trust my truck that much. If it were to break down, I would have to hike out for help, leaving my cats behind. Or if I were to become ill or injured, I'd be in a jam. Plus there is the problem of camping on other people's land--I don't want to make anyone angry. And I am not sure how to provide physical security for myself, my cats and my property out in the desert against dangerous people. It's my experience that there is usually more safety to be gotten by travelling in a group than from carrying a gun. Local people don't like to see a stranger around with a gun, especially local law enforcement. And yet, I can't think of any other way to provide security for myself travelling alone. I mean, what do I do, dig a moat around my campsite? Perhaps camoflaging the campsite. Anyone have experience here? My next thought was to go to state and national parks and camp in their camping sites. To my knowledge, this costs $4 a night and up. Figuring $6 for the site per day and $6 per day for basic-type food and water, I'll have a little left over for gasoline and other expenses. I'm taking books, maybe a small musical instrument, pens, pencil and lots of paper. Also whatever camping stuff I need. I'm planning on a week long "shakedown cruise" or two before the main thing, to debug my plan. The objective of this is for me to have time to relax, read and have lots of time to think. The nice thing about going to these campsites is that it simul- taneously solves the problems of "where's the toilet?" and the "security" problem, as well. There are usually enough people around, and often Park Rangers too. This makes me feel safer from the threat of illness and injury as well as from theives or Tough Guys. Still, it doubles my cost-of-living. I am interested in whatever information you may have to offer. Should I bring a firearm? I am inclined not to. Do you know of places out west where I can camp for free? Will my cats be welcome? If you have experience with this sort of lifestyle, what worked for you? Do you have any tips or warnings? I prefer to find a spot and stay at least a few days, up to maybe two weeks or so. I do not want to spend hours and gas money every day driving from campsite to campsite. Even driving every third or fourth day would be OK, but not everyday. I am willing to pay up to about $8 per night for a campsite, but if I can eliminate this cost, I can stay out much longer. I am interested in whatever ideas you might have. Someone suggested to me to look into the "rainbow people", a group of nomadic hippie type people. Although I doubt that I am much ideologically aligned with the "rainbow people", I have nothing against them. But the idea of living in a pastoral environment WITH some social support structure (toilet facilities, people who can get me to the hospital if I break my leg or get bit by a snake or something, etc.) is admittedly appealing. Thank you for your time and I look forwared to your messages. I would prefer you reply here in the newsgroup, but if you are not comfortable doing that, I can be reached at this email address: rdh@drmail.dr.att.com Regards, Robert Holder Denver Colorado From sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Sat Sep 17 11:00:19 EDT 1994 Article: 258 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!sybok From: sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:44:55 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 11 Message-ID: <35d047$sg@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> References: <35b5oe$3sb$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com> <35c8dp$h6n@blkbox.blkbox.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: m1-142-13.mit.edu In article <35c8dp$h6n@blkbox.blkbox.COM> guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) writes: #Security? There is none. Part 97 of the FCC rules do not allow the use of #"codes or cyphers" on amateur radio. (Morse is a language not a code #supposedly.) That means no PGP, No one time pads. (Grupo, Grupo, Uno, #Uno, Tres...). No talk around codes ("THe chair is against the wall. John #has a red hat.") I'm sure that during a collapse of civil power, when you're holed up in your mountain cabin, you're going to worry about an FCC van pulling up and charging you with transmitting in code. From hollombe@polymath.tti.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:20 EDT 1994 Article: 259 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ttinews!polymath!hollombe From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) Subject: Re: Various Message-ID: <1994Sep16.203823.19420@ttinews.tti.com> Sender: usenet@ttinews.tti.com (Usenet Admin) Nntp-Posting-Host: polymath.tti.com Organization: The Cat Factory References: <35adub$1e2@news.service.uci.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 20:38:23 GMT Lines: 35 In article rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: }I still maintain, thought, that during a temporary thing like }a hurricane, earthquake, or localized riot, the net would be }very useful, and it might serve us to examine where it would }be useful and where it would be a waste of time. These are highly localized events. Things may be bad for a week or so, but help starts pouring in almost immediately. I was living at ground zero of the January earthquake (still am). The only thing the internet was good for, when I finally got to it, was reassuring people not in the area that things in general weren't nearly as bad as the popular media tried to make them look. There was, in fact, very little looting -- mostly random crimes of opportunity, like grabs from smashed shop windows. The real crimes IMHO were things like "convenience" store owners gouging $10/gallon for bottled water. I got by for most of a week on canned food and bottled water (distilled at home). Would have done a little better if the drain valve on my water heater hadn't jammed (could have flushed the toilets, at least). Water trucks were on scene within 24 hours. Emergency shelters were set up within 48. Throughout the entire emergency I never heard a gunshot nor saw a police car. (I was glad I and friends in the area had guns, but much more glad we didn't need them). The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com) Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp "Learning about the U.S. from the popular 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. media is like learning about plumbing by Santa Monica, CA 90405 sitting in a cesspool." -- Michael Phelps From locasso@tis.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:20 EDT 1994 Article: 260 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:41:12 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35cvt8$g50@shemesh.tis.com> References: Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article Lq2@netcom.com, pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) writes: > I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can > anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, > hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. The USMC Ka-Bar is a good solid knife and commonly available. Lately, I've seen them at gun shows for $30; my local Army Surplus sells them for $44. Rosaria Locasso From waddell@firnvx.firn.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:21 EDT 1994 Article: 261 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!mailer.acns.fsu.edu!news From: waddell@firnvx.firn.edu (Kathy Waddell) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Ratings system... Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:54:07 GMT Organization: Florida Info Resource Network Lines: 41 Message-ID: <35d0lf$s5i@mailer.fsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kathy.firn.edu X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 In article <35cs1n$g50@shemesh.tis.com>, locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) says: > >In article nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu, abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) writes: >> A couple posts have stressed the need for PRIORITIES: what's more important, a >> gun or a can opener, a radio or surplus blankets. >> I propose a ratings system for use within the group, something which could >> allow someone to post: "I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo >> should be a category 2 item." and everyone could tell what they were saying, >> rather than having to describe the conditions under which items would be >> necessary. I'm thinking of something like >> >> Rating Description >> >> 1 Absolutely Necessary >> 2 Necessary >> 3 Important >> 4 Useful >> 5 Luxury >> 6 Stupid >> 7 Dangerous ... >Not flaming you, but I bet we would spend years trying to clarify the >difference between Important and Useful, trying to agree on where the line >is drawn between Absolute Necessary and Necessary. We'd have to start a >new newsgroup just to talk about this! :-) Why not just let the writer say >"I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo are necessary"? I agree, one person's 2 could be another person's 7. I don't think there is any way to come up with concensus judgements on what is necessary and what is stupid. Let each person decide for themselves based on available info. I think the FAQ(s) especially should not contain personal comment or judgements but only contain information, leaving personal opinion to be expressed in articles. --- Have fun! =-Kathy-> waddell@firnvx.firn.edu From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:00:22 EDT 1994 Article: 262 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!convex!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!male.EBay.Sun.COM!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:30:35 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 101 Message-ID: <35cv9b$ldr@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article 1609941116000001@144.52.104.196, kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) writes: + + I used to be an EMT and put together my own jump kit. It has everything +that I generally need while in my car, but I'd like to find something +better for long term survival. + + Can anyone recommend a commerical first aid kit designed for long term +survival that is well thought out and well put together? One reason I want +something commerical is that they are generally packaged better than anything +I can do myself. I have bought all the correct pieces myself, but I end up +with a lot left over, and it is not as neatly packaged as I would like. The best ones around are made by the Adventure Medical Kit company in Oakland, CA. More and more outdoor stores are carrying these. REI already carries them. They come in distinctive blue carrying cases, and in sizes from very small, to a car kit. There are special kits (and refills) oriented towards wound cleaning & dressing, oral rehydration kits, hypo/hyper-thermia kits, etc. The company is owned by Dr. Weiss, who I posted earlier info from about water treatment. Based on my not-small knowledge of first aid, Dr. Weiss knows whence he speaks. His company also sells a $4.95 booklet on first aid which is the best for its' scope I've seen. I've built my own kit. I have a duplicate kit in my car, motorcycle, and daypack, and I carry an additional non-duplicated kit which has specialized things like meds and sutures (although the longer I have them, the less I plan on ever using sutures). My carry kit: * bag of 3" x 3" gauze pads, roller bandages, and telfa pads. * betadine prep pads (also useful for purifying water for wound irrigation) * 1 compressed trauma dressing * disposable space blanket * insta-glucose paste (for hypothermia treatment) * pocket CPR microshield * condoms (for a variety of uses) * crazy glue, steri strips, tincture of benzoin swaps (for closing wounds w/out using sutures; no, I don't use the crazy glue to glue wounds shut) * syringe & cannula for cleaning wounds w/ water stream. * knuckle bandaids, alcohol swabs (primarily for use when I need a solvent, not for use as disenfectant), rubber gloves, safety pins. The above all fits in an REI pouch about 5" x 7" x 4". In a second pouch, a US military 30 round M16 magazine pouch, I have a rolled up ACE bandage, cortisone cream, NeoSporin Plus, dibucaine ointment (anesthetic), wide range thermometer, EpiPen, and (this is most cool) a small fishing lure box with lots of little compartments -- each compartment has a small ziplock bag full of useful over the counter medications such as Aspirin, Benedryl, etc. Both pouches together can be carried on my belt if need be, and allow me to treat most problems I'm going to encounter. I also have a Laerdal CPR pocket mask in my backpack because it's easier to use than the pocket microshields. I also have a pair of EMT trauma sheers which rattle arond in my pack, and a pen & pad of paper. I have other stuff at home which I don't carry, such as lots more dressings, meds, plus stethescope & BP cuff, but those aren't needed for most things I'm likely to have to do. What good is having a pile of stuff if none of it is around when you need it because it's too heavy? Of course, all the stuff above isn't useful w/out training, and continued practice. I get my training by helping instruct a Wilderness Medicine Course in the San Jose, CA area once or twice a year, and working at volunteer medical events. For those interested, another one is coming up next month, October 8th & 9th. It's conducted by Earthbound Medical Rescue, costs $150, and it's a very good class. The contacts for it are: Earthbound Medical Rescue 390 N. 12th st., San Jose, CA 95112, phone: 408/275-9542. Finally, in keeping with the philosophy of not becoming a second victim, my Tetanus booster is up to date, and I'm immunized against Hepatitis B. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:23 EDT 1994 Article: 263 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:03:50 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 62 Message-ID: <35d17m$4nh@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> <35cr6i$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article <35cr6i$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com>, Chris BeHanna wrote: >In article <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> bucket O brains (bw004b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu) wrote: >:>I personaly like the M-16. What more could you ask for? I mean apart from >:>the necesity of keeping it very clean. It's light, very accurate, more >:>powerfull than you will ever need, and has excelent range. I can't see >:>needing more than 550m of pin point accuracy, and 800m of area target >:>accuracy. As for the ammo, 5.56 should not be that hard to find after a >:>revolution because of vast amount that the goverment has sould not be hard to >:>get a hold of. O well it's too bad I can't get one for my self. Pitty > > Col. Cooper holds the M-16 in contempt and recommends the M-1 in its >place. > > Can't get that either, EXCEPT that you can buy it used from someone >who legally owned it before Tuesday, as transfers of grandfathered weapons are >also grandfathered. > > Good luck trying to find someone to give theirs up, though. > > Tip: someone said you could reload using white-tipped matches for >primers. Anyone have any info on this? It would seem to be survival-relevant. > Excuse me? I beg your pardon. I agree with Col. Cooper in that the M-16 is not my ideal military rifle. Underpowered (I tend to feel a bit more secure with a rifle whose effective range is greater then 1 city block), innaccurate at ranges beyond 150 yards or so, and simply not good enough to take big game reliably either. But if you don't know how to shoot and you want to look cool, by all means go for the M-16/AR-15... :) But how do you come to the conclusion that the M1 is banned? It's not. You might be thinking of the M1A/M14. That's diferent from the M1. While both rifles are similar (I would take the M14 and then the M1, in order of preference) only the M1A is now banned from manufacture unless Springfield modifies it and sells it with a 10 round mag instead of the normal 20. M14/M1A Caliber: 7.62 NATO Operation: Air-cooled, gas-operated semi-automatic rifle Weight: 9.1 lbs Length: 44.3" Barrel length: 22" Capacity: 20-round magazine (although I have a few 30s) M1 "Garand" Caliber: .30-06 Operation: Air-cooled, gas-operated semi-automatic rifle Weight: 11.25 lbs. (approx) Length: 43" Barrel length: 23" Capacity: 8-round enbloc clip ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:24 EDT 1994 Article: 264 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!abrez From: abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Ratings system... Date: 16 Sep 1994 21:13:37 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL Lines: 50 Message-ID: <35d1q1$kfo@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <35d0lf$s5i@mailer.fsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu In article <35d0lf$s5i@mailer.fsu.edu>, Kathy Waddell wrote: >In article <35cs1n$g50@shemesh.tis.com>, locasso@tis.com > (Rosaria Locasso) says: >... >>Not flaming you, but I bet we would spend years trying to clarify the >>difference between Important and Useful, trying to agree on where the line >>is drawn between Absolute Necessary and Necessary. We'd have to start a >>new newsgroup just to talk about this! :-) Why not just let the writer say >>"I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo are necessary"? > >I agree, one person's 2 could be another person's 7. I don't think >there is any way to come up with concensus judgements on what is >necessary and what is stupid. Let each person decide for themselves >based on available info. I think the FAQ(s) especially should not >contain personal comment or judgements but only contain information, >leaving personal opinion to be expressed in articles. > >--- >Have fun! > > =-Kathy-> waddell@firnvx.firn.edu > I didn't mean to imply an "official" system for use in the FAQ. That would indeed be foolish, as everyone has differing opinions. However, in discussing these opinions, it might be useful to be able to type: Urban Survival: Canned goods: 1 Can opener:1 Guns: 2 Ammo:2 Mattress:4 Sign outside your place advertising food:7 etc. i.e., have a master list of items, and allow each individual to append a rating to each item. Sorry, I guess I'm into codification... Aaron Brezenski "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me." Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati "If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion." "... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" From kovar@nda.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:25 EDT 1994 Article: 265 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!trib.apple.com!amd!news.kgc.com!kpc!NewsWatcher!user From: kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:52:17 -0800 Organization: Net Daemons Associates, Inc. Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.52.104.196 In article , rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) wrote: > As an EMT, you must have a good idea of what exactly should > go into such a kit. Would you please share the contents of > your homemade kit with us, Mr. Kovar? Being an EMT doesn't give me a good idea of what should be in there, unfortunately. I'd love to take a wilderness EMT course, and then I'd have a better idea. EMTs, *in general*, must stabilize a patient and get them to the hospital as fast as possible. You stock up with tools, and training, for stabilization - splits, bandages, MAST trousers, O2, breath masks, and the like. If you want to practice wilderness medicine, or medicine for survival situations, you have to be thinking about long term care and treatment, not just stabilization. MAST trousers (inflatable trousers for treating shock, essentially) are less usefull when you're 4 days away from medical care. Your best option is to find a wilderness medical course. Ski patrols teach a very good one. One is being taught in San Jose on Oct 8th and 9th, I think. There are others around. The *training* is the important part. Without that, the best first aid kit is pretty much useless. A book on wilderness first aid would also provide a good list of what you'd want to carry. *Completely* off the top of my head, I'd want to have: Bandaging materials * Sterile gauze, bandages, and tape * Trauma pads Splint materials * Splint boards. * Folding splint, perhaps * Several slings. (Good for splints, slings, dressings, pads, etc.) Tools * Rescue shears * Scalpel * Flashlight * Pen * Notepad * Stethescope * BP cuff * Breath mask Fluids * Alcohol * Sterile water * Betadine That's what is in my current kit. I don't carry any medicines as it is illegal for me to dispense them. Oxygen falls under the same category. For survival issues, with no regards to legal issues, I'd probably add: * Painkillers * Muscle relaxants * Various other over the counter medicines * O2 * A lot more of everything in the standard kit * A library of books. Wilderness medicine, herbal remedies, etc, etc *Please* do not take this as an exhaustive list. Please *do* read up on it yourself, get the required training, and know how to use it. -David From hollombe@polymath.tti.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:26 EDT 1994 Article: 266 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ttinews!polymath!hollombe From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Message-ID: <1994Sep16.232817.23263@ttinews.tti.com> Sender: usenet@ttinews.tti.com (Usenet Admin) Nntp-Posting-Host: polymath.tti.com Organization: The Cat Factory References: <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> <35akjg$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 23:28:17 GMT Lines: 22 In article <35akjg$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> gbrennan@umich.edu (Gerald Brennan) writes: }George Guillory (guillory@blkbox.com) wrote: }: Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that }: the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms }: (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. } }But that's crazy. As unpleasant and _presumably_ irrelevant as these }topics may be to some, they are indeed part of the picture, and should }not be ignored. Those who don't wish to participate in those threads, if }they develop, need not do so. The gun forums are not designed }_specifically_ for the survivalist point-of-view. May I suggest that firearms discussions, if any, be confined strictly to discussions of the technology as it applies to survivalism with political ranting relegated to t.p.g? There _are_ gun folk here and the subject _will_ come up. We can only hope to follow the example of rec.guns -- the kinder, gentler firearms group. The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com) Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp "Learning about the U.S. from the popular 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. media is like learning about plumbing by Santa Monica, CA 90405 sitting in a cesspool." -- Michael Phelps From pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:27 EDT 1994 Article: 267 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!pyotr From: pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Jeffersons gun Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:12:34 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <35dts2$8ri@news.halcyon.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com hernler@hspt.tu-graz.ac.at (hannes g. hernler) writes: >> lot of stuff deleted........ >>+ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest + >>+ reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as + >>+ a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. + >>+ - Thomas Jefferson, proposed Virginia constitution, June 1776. + >>+ 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950) + >I think, Thomas Jefferson was right then, in 1776! >But had the government tanks, planes, H-bombs, FBI and some millions of >soldiers then? >And when tyranny is now (and better than ever) with TV, free highways, a car >for everybody, McBurgers and "free choice" (as long as you can buy it and have >enough money so that you do all to get that money) ? >What sence makes a gun then? Good question. But as an acquantance once remarked - "Zip guns are the first step in getting the keys to the Tanks" (Zip guns are what street gangs used in the old days - a piece of pipe with a handle and some way of hitting the old fireing pin on demand. Not very accurate, but not meant for more than point blank use. Also not very safe, due to 'inexperienced gunsmiths'.) I hear all these arguements about the Modern Weapons of the National Government and remember the hungarians were stopping tanks in Budapest with soup plates. From inside a tank, a soup plate looks a lot like an Teller mine. Weapons of war are only going to work if the government is willing to flatten large parts of the city ... its called "Swatting flys with the sledgehammer". Works, but the 'collateral damage' may not be acceptable. chus pyotr not directly survival related, but "heads up" is half of it. -- pyotr@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl. God is my co-pilot. But the Devil's my bombadier, and I don't know who the Tail Gunner is! Bring back the Ghengis Khan World Tour! From pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:28 EDT 1994 Article: 268 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!pyotr From: pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Map & Compass Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:17:48 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <35du5s$90v@news.halcyon.com> References: <35c8fj$4dn@pegasus.rutgers.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com Keywords: Magnetic Poles Orienteering rreyes@pegasus.rutgers.edu (the little thing inside) writes: >Hello everyone: > My question is : > How can one find his/her way around the magnetic pole regions? Very carefully. The 'low tech' way is to learn celestial navigation, either of the stars at night, or from the location of the sun. (If you can't get a sun/star sighting, stay put.) actually - there is a trick with polarized filters that will point you to the sun, but I can't recall it now. Old trick, the Norsk were using it a thousand years ago. Otherwise, learn your landmarks, mark your trail (carns of stones on a tundra will show you where you were comeing from.). > Is it possible without the aid of Loran type aids? > Any assistance is appreciated, esp. since I have no answer to it. Check your Boy Scout manual on navagation, there is a trick using your watch as a sundial/compass, but it only works with analoges. :-) chus pyotr -- pyotr@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl. God is my co-pilot. But the Devil's my bombadier, and I don't know who the Tail Gunner is! Bring back the Ghengis Khan World Tour! From pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:29 EDT 1994 Article: 269 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!pyotr From: pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Nitrogen 'poisoning' was Re: THREAT IDENTIFICATION (was "Gas Mask") Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:25:24 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 54 Message-ID: <35duk4$999@news.halcyon.com> References: <35cu77$2sk@macs.ico.tek.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: >In article <35cu77$2sk@macs.ico.tek.com>, hall@macs.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) writes: >|> In article rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: >|> >|> You must have nitrogen (N2) confused with carbon monoxide (CO). CO >|> does what you describe but I don't think it is likely to be hauled >|> around in a truck. It is produced by automotive exhausts however >|> which is why you should never run an engine in an enclosed space or >|> operate a vehicle with a faulty exhaust. >|> >it works the same as carbon monoxide, with the hemoglobin (? somebody help >me out here?) you're right that most of the >air we breathe is nitrogen, but I read a newspaper story some years >back of one (or maybe two) Space Shuttle workers who walked into a >pure nitrogen environment. They weren't in there long, and were still >alive once they were pulled out of the room (or whatever it was) but >the nitrogen had bound up all their hemoglobin (?) and they suffocated >out in the open air. The problem isn't binding to the hemoglobin, it is the complete saturation of the system with N2. The air is not posionous, it is just not going to support oxidation - which is why we breath it. Most likely the workers saturated their system with N2, there was zero O2 in their systems no matter how hard they tried. End result was similar to not breathing for the same amount of time. The lungs are busy but there is nothing usefull being passed. Back to the thread re Gas Masks. "It all depends." Some chemicals will react with the filter, some filters will not do a thing for some chemicals. If you are "really" worried, carry bottled air or oxygen. (Scuba gear) - no worries about "Will the filters work?" just "Will the tank last until I get out of this?" chus pyotr >Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me here, but I'm pretty sure that >it was nitrogen. Whether a broken nitrogen truck tank could create a >pure nitrogen environment...? who knows. as you mentioned, the cold >would be much more dangerous. i just wanted to illustrate that there is >no filter-based "magic mask" that can protect against everything in the >air. >rdh -- pyotr@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl. God is my co-pilot. But the Devil's my bombadier, and I don't know who the Tail Gunner is! Bring back the Ghengis Khan World Tour! From degroff@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:29 EDT 1994 Article: 270 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!overload.lbl.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uop!csus.edu!netcom.com!degroff From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d) Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Message-ID: Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 06:46:34 GMT Lines: 24 In article <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu (Aaron Dial) writes: >If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, >and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most >versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought >this would be an interesting topic of conversation. > >Aaron, Delaware, far, far away from the Pacific Northwest > >-- >******************************************************** >*** *** > *** AARON DIAL is bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu *** >*** *** >******************************************************** > If your going forever and ever, you might wish to forgo the firearm in favor of bow, blow gun or some other construction tools. Long duration, IMO, go with .22...you can afford and carry 1000 rounds (two "bricks" about 30 dollars) while with any heavier round you will be spending lots more (7 or 8 dollars per 20 rd) and much heavier. From bjacoby@infinet.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:30 EDT 1994 Article: 271 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!bjacoby From: bjacoby@infinet.com (Ben Jacoby) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 17 Sep 1994 07:13:39 GMT Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410) Lines: 29 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35e4v3$peu@rigel.infinet.com> References: <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com> <35a14d$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> <35co31$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Chris BeHanna (behanna@syl.nj.nec.com) wrote: : In article <35a14d$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Rosaria Locasso (locasso@tis.com) wrote: : :>In article 1jv@rigel.infinet.com, lovecraf@infinet.com (Ed Michalski) writes: : :>> : :>> There are certain gas additives which can prolong the life of stored : :>> gasoline far greater than our lifetimes. : :>> : :>Ed, : :>Can you tell us what these additives are? Are they easily available? : :>Expensive? Where can we get them? : Sta-Bil is the best. It's cheap. Get it at the auto parts store. I got some Champion (spark plug people) Marine fuel stabilizer at a sale and put some in my lawn mower can. *many* years later it is still fine. This stuff costs more but seems to work very well. The idea is supposed to be to put it in you outboard motor can which may sit around until you want to use the boat. I also heard (but never tried) that grease extender works great too and is dirt cheap. It's what they use in resaurants in the deep-fry machine to keep the grease from turning rancid. It's susposed to be very similar in chemical composition to *real* fuel stabilizers. -- Benjamin Jacoby | "Some rob you with a six-gun and some with bjacoby@infinet.com | a fountain pen." ..........Woodie Guthrie From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:00:31 EDT 1994 Article: 272 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 16 Sep 1994 22:54:18 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 34 Message-ID: <35d7mq$mt2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35d35s$g50@shemesh.tis.com> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article g50@shemesh.tis.com, locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) writes: +In article HI@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu, algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (the virtual valkyrie) writes: +> +> I know about herbal medicine +> and edible wild plants... + +How in the world did you ever learn about edible plants? When I first took +up backpacking, I tried to learn what I could safely eat. I bought and read +several books and searched for better books. Inevitably, these books would +have pencil drawings of plants, and crude drawings at that. There was no way +I could identify a plant from the pictures and descriptions. Oh, maybe I +could guess, but no way did I want to eat the thing and find out for sure! I know how you feel. I do better IDing plants, now that I grow house plants on my own and have learned how to propagate them. Being more comfortable with plants, I feel more comfortable matching live plants with drawings. Of course the better way is to have someone explain it to you first hand. Still a third way is to start small: learn how to consistently ID and use a few local plants. Go to a local nature store, or club, or group, and see if they have a plant guide to your local area. This scopes it down and gives you a chance at matching things. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From dclauswa.gas.uug.arizona.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:31 EDT 1994 Article: 273 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!news.Cerritos.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!usenet From: dclauswa.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Deb) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Book recommendations Date: 17 Sep 1994 00:18:25 GMT Organization: University of Arizona, CCIT Lines: 10 Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[8474] Message-ID: <35dckh$ebh@news.CCIT.Arizona.EDU> References: <358hd4$mkq@hobbes.cc.uga.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hall-lab.biosci.arizona.edu X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0.1b11@hall-lab.biosci.arizona.edu Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name. > > > ___________ > / \ "Send Lawyers, Guns, and lots of Money ... > | R. I. P. | the shit has hit the fan." - Dennis Leary > | | Couldn't resist, but wasn't that a quote taken from a Warren Zevon song? From jdc@taligent.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:32 EDT 1994 Article: 274 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!ames!taligent!dave-croyle.taligent.com!user From: jdc@taligent.com (The Kurgan) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Sender: usenet@taligent.com (More Bytes Than You Can Read) Organization: Banzai Institute References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 21:18:24 GMT Lines: 13 In article <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) wrote: > Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications > in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as > constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? No specific plans but the seismologists there at UCB communicated with their counterparts in the LA area over the internet during the last LA quake when most telephones down there were out/busy, so it seems to be a useful tool for such. Potential resources should never be overlooked. Dave From bjacoby@infinet.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:33 EDT 1994 Article: 275 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!bjacoby From: bjacoby@infinet.com (Ben Jacoby) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 17 Sep 1994 07:32:50 GMT Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410) Lines: 38 Message-ID: <35e632$peu@rigel.infinet.com> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] STEPHENSON (dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote: : These kinds of things and this group made me think: : Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons : of some sort? : I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have : food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and : that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things : you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the : survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. : Dave : -- The answer, of course, is Yes. "Stockpiling" guns and ammo, on the other hand is another matter. The idea is that if you have prepared like the ant there will be armed grasshoppers who will attempt to survive on *your* forethought. However, I have heard of a guy who "stockpiled" Colt .45 pistols to be used in the future as barter. He supposedly had a 50 gallon drum filled with them, covered with oil. But that is a different concept. The absolute best discussion I have seen on this matter will be found in the book "Life after Doomsday" by Bruce D. Clayton Ph.D. A lot of it is about nukes, but the chapter on guns answers all your questions. He recommends you have 1. Light assault rifle (in .223) 2. Heavy assault rifle (in .308) 3. 12 Ga. Shotgun 4. Handgun (.45 ACP) Plus a few hundred rounds of ammo for the above. The book explains it all. Also remember that the person who stockpiles guns and ammo *and NO FOOD* is making a very clear statement about how they are planning to survive! ps. remember being prepared to defend your stores is not just *owning* firearms but also being practiced and skilled in their use. -- Benjamin Jacoby | "Some rob you with a six-gun and some with bjacoby@infinet.com | a fountain pen." ..........Woodie Guthrie From ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:34 EDT 1994 Article: 276 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!tusk.lm.com!not-for-mail From: ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: books and where to find them Date: 17 Sep 1994 01:12:05 -0400 Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 18 Message-ID: <35dtr5$6ju@tusk.lm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tusk.lm.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] if you are looking for books on survival. go to your local library. if you are looking for books for archiving. go to your local army navy store. they have field manuals for survival. they have books on emergency surgery,to boobytraps,concelment to fighting. just about anything you might need. there are surplus stores that sell books and supplies. one that i use is MAJOR SURPLUS AND SURVIVAL (800)441-8855. YOU DON'T NEED TO BYE MRE'S you can dry your own or find a lot (cheap) at the grocery store,like tuna fish,corned beef hash,ect... when i get mr londons ftp address and a place to put my files. i will upload all of my lists and files. -- kevin gaudi ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com From bjacoby@infinet.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:35 EDT 1994 Article: 277 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!bjacoby From: bjacoby@infinet.com (Ben Jacoby) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: RACE AND RELIGION Date: 17 Sep 1994 07:40:11 GMT Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410) Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35e6gr$peu@rigel.infinet.com> References: <35a2md$e8g@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Frank Langham (Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com) wrote: : DO NOT...REPEAT...DO *NOT* GET STARTED ON THIS *HERE* !!!!! : ...TAKE YOUR DRIVEL SOMEWHERE ELSE! : =Frank= Why, what ever do you mean???? Don't you know that Mormon stores have some of the most nifty survival stocks you will find anywhere? Only, I haven't seen many around Ohio.... -- Benjamin Jacoby | "Some rob you with a six-gun and some with bjacoby@infinet.com | a fountain pen." ..........Woodie Guthrie From I.Bickerstaffe@bristol.ac.uk Sat Sep 17 11:00:36 EDT 1994 Article: 278 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!att-out!pacbell.com!sgiblab!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!bsmail!ssa!cdirb From: cdirb@ssa.bris.ac.uk (I.R.Bickerstaffe) Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Message-ID: Sender: usenet@info.bris.ac.uk (Usenet news owner) Nntp-Posting-Host: ssa.bris.ac.uk Reply-To: I.Bickerstaffe@bristol.ac.uk Organization: University of Bristol, England X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 10:44:13 GMT Lines: 25 Frank Langham (Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com) wrote: : IMHO, : Survival Equals = : : * Water : * Food : * Security (=guns & concealment & non-provocative attitude) : * Shelter : ... In that order... Comments? : =Frank= In most cases shelter should come above security IMHO. If you have shelter it can be made secure and will provide concealment too. Iain : From bjacoby@infinet.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:36 EDT 1994 Article: 279 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!bjacoby From: bjacoby@infinet.com (Ben Jacoby) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 17 Sep 1994 08:03:46 GMT Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410) Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35e7t2$peu@rigel.infinet.com> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a6o3$4bl@newkodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Carl T. Donath (ctdonath@mothra.syr.EDU) wrote: : In article <35a6o3$4bl@newkodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> mark@newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM (KP) writes: : I have : never fired when using the viewer, but I was interested in trying it : in as many ways as possible. : Know how night-vision behaves with bright lights _before_ you try it : while shooting. Remember, the end of a gun creates a _bright_ flash - : make sure the 'scope won't magnify it by 30,000 times (not good for : the eyes). Fortunately, some handle this. : -- sorry, but the light does NOT come out like a laser beam from a bright flash. What *does* happen is that tube draws too much current and unless the power supply was designed to limit properly, it can burn out your tube. This is why night vision designed for firearms are often different (and cost more) than just plain old viewers. By the same token, accidentally turning on you viewer during the day can have the same damaging effect. -- Benjamin Jacoby | "Some rob you with a six-gun and some with bjacoby@infinet.com | a fountain pen." ..........Woodie Guthrie From shootist@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:37 EDT 1994 Article: 280 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!shootist From: shootist@netcom.com (Shootist) Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> <35a3ca$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 07:58:13 GMT Lines: 11 131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 (rdh@arriva.dr.att.com) wrote: : The number one cause of sickness from unsterilized water is : from a bacteria called (I think) giardia . This : bacteria makes you sick as a dog, but I don't think it's fatal. : Robert Holder In the above posts, re: purifying water through boiling and iodine were mentioned. One of the best ways to make water potable is to add one tablespoon of Clorox per gallon of water. Better tasting than boiling and cheaper than iodine. From zkessin@cs.brandeis.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:38 EDT 1994 Article: 281 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!zkessin From: zkessin@cs.brandeis.edu (Zach) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: What I would want with me Date: 17 Sep 1994 02:21:56 GMT Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept. Lines: 32 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35djs4$1ve@news.cs.brandeis.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: june.cs.brandeis.edu Random thoughts on what I would want to have with me if civ died: A non-electric sewing machine (I hate hand sewing) simalarly a loom and spinning weel. Wool and Linen can be obtained in colder climates. And clothing will wear out. If socity dies i shure as hell want some way to make clothing. I have a fealing that someone with a treadle sewing machine loom and spinning weel could do quite well. Assuming that there is still some form of commerce than simple things like textiles will be very popular. a bow or crossbow. again a modern gun needs a high technology to support it. A good bow does not. Or if you want a rev war stile musket. Blackpowder and lead balls. This you could make without to much trouble. However a muzzle loading blackpowder musket will probably have a slower shot rate than your crossbow or longbow. An archer friend of mine says that for example he can get off 7 shots in 30 seconds and that he knows people who can get off 10-12 (with a hand bow not a crossbow). Also Ive been told that blackpowder guns can explode if not made properly. this summer I saw somone with a treadle lathe. While it would take a lot more skill than I have to run one of those things. However I can see wanting one. Anyhow Zach (Hoping that if the end comes it is the 3rd week in August) zkessin@world.std.com From decastro@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:39 EDT 1994 Article: 282 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!decastro From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) Subject: Re: talk about this? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> <35a8mk$ifh@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 04:39:02 GMT Lines: 18 honig@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) writes: > bhampton@golden.ncw.net (Brad Hampton) writes: >>does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? >>x=1-5 >> 5-20 >> 20-50 >> 50-+ >>is ther a rule of thum ie. for every gal. of stored fuel add 3 months? >> Get some fuel stabilizer (Sta-Bil or equal). Follow the directions. It works. -- ============================================================================ decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! -Don't Tread On Me!- ============================================================================ From steiners@indirect.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:40 EDT 1994 Article: 283 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!indirect.com!steiners From: steiners@indirect.com (Jason and Heather) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Water Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:13:20 GMT Organization: Internet Direct, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <35dttg$dtr@herald.indirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bud.indirect.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] i live in a desert, so the subject of water is of some importance. if there were a major loss of (electrical) power, what's the best way to obtain drinkable water? is there an easy way to make sure that reserves are available? long term situations would be even more difficult, but they're also more rare. the more i think about the alternatives, the more i'd like to plan ahead. is anyone interested in creating a FAQ on basic survival subjects like this? jason -- Don't blame me. I voted Libertarian. `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` steiners@indirect.com `,`,`,` From decastro@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:40 EDT 1994 Article: 284 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!decastro From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) Subject: Re: What is meant by Light Aircraft Crew Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <35b6qg$nin@nic-nac.CSU.net> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 04:40:36 GMT Lines: 16 haacm024@huey.csun.edu (Duane Smeckert) writes: >Light aircraft are generally single engine propeller driven fixed wing >aircraft. There is an actual limit but I don't have my references handy. >Duane A light aircraft is one with a maximum landing weight of 12,500 lbs or less. Federal Aviation Regulation Part 1. -- ============================================================================ decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! -Don't Tread On Me!- ============================================================================ From pyro@chopin.udel.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:41 EDT 1994 Article: 285 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!udel!news-4.nss.udel.edu!chopin.udel.edu!not-for-mail From: pyro@chopin.udel.edu (Thomas Rich Schwerdt) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 17 Sep 1994 01:38:14 -0400 Organization: University of Delaware Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35dvc6$s52@chopin.udel.edu> References: <35cr6i$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> <35d145$m5q@engnews2.eng.sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu In article <35d145$m5q@engnews2.eng.sun.com>, Robert Allen wrote: >In article dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com, behanna@syl.nj.nec.com (Chris BeHanna) writes: >+ Tip: someone said you could reload using white-tipped matches for >+primers. Anyone have any info on this? It would seem to be survival-relevant. >You can supposedly use the white tips to reload primers only, not ammo. >You're supposed to scavenge propellent from old artillery shells for the >powder I guess. All this info came from US military manuals designed >for unconventional warefare. The white tips need to be mixed with a bit of ground glass before being used as primers. With a bit of work, used primers can supposedly be recycled for this purpose (carefully removing anvil, flattening dents, refilling with glass/tip powder, replacing anvil) Quite a few other things can be used for propellant, but most of them are a bit difficult to obtain (a potassium chlorate/sugar mixture is about the easiest really effective powder) The leftover match heads can be used (ground up of course) for a very low quality, but workable powder. Do NOT under any circumstances attempt to combine these recipes to "strech" any potassium chlorate you may have. Any sulfur (as in the match heads) will make the potassium chlorate unstable -- to be technical, it acts as a sensitizer. it will not be any more powerful, but it WILL be liable to go off at any time. I will try to look up my references soon and post a followup. -Tom the Melaniephile From nobody@csua.berkeley.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:42 EDT 1994 Article: 286 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU!remailer From: Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 17 Sep 1994 06:41:38 GMT Organization: none Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35e332$gi7@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.csua.berkeley.edu Errors-To: nobody@soda.berkeley.edu Originator: remailer@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU In article <35a6o3$4bl@newkodak.rdcs.kodak.com> you write: :In article <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: :>I heard you got a Sten. My friends and me picked up a Mini-14. I got :>it with a night scope and a night scope. It's cool. I heard about a :>gunsmith with all the tools we need to make it fully automatic. : :One MUST remember that a fully automatic wepon without the proper FFL is :just cause for a visit somewhere where the only survival tools are hard :protective covers for your rectum! You were discussing communications :security, but where do you think that various government agencies will be looking for information about people and ideas? It will be HERE and in :rec.guns. It might be a good idea to go a little lighter on obvious :criminal ideas that might be associated with a name and internet address! : :In a lot of states night vision technology MOUNTED on a rifle is also a :no-no. I do not know the laws of your state. I keep a hand held :infrared viewer with a good lense installed for night use, and for my :rifle, Rem 700vs .380 I put on a 56mm low light scope. I have found :that using the viewer to look through the scope works and that you can :see over the sights of a handgun just fine with it at night. I have :never fired when using the viewer, but I was interested in trying it :in as many ways as possible. I didn't write that. As someone already pointed out, that block was computer-generated, by the remailer, just like this one is: I stole 10 pounds of TNT. We're waiting for them to tell us what the target is then we'll blow it up. -------- For more information about this anonymous posting service,please send mail to remailer@csua.berkeley.edu with Subject: remailer-info. -------- From genEn@gold.tc.umn.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:43 EDT 1994 Article: 287 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!dialup-3-161.gw.umn.edu!genEn From: genericEntity Subject: Worst fears Message-ID: X-Xxmessage-Id: X-Xxdate: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 17:38:55 GMT Sender: news@news.cis.umn.edu (Usenet News Administration) Nntp-Posting-Host: dialup-3-161.gw.umn.edu Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities X-Newsreader: Nuntius Version 1.2 References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:35:58 GMT Lines: 13 In article <358qn4$93q@potogold.rmii.com> Robert Payne, rpayne@rmii.com writes: >The 'survivalist' has now looked to the 'organized' militias that >have begun to form in various regions, concerned about that dreaded >day that the knock on the door comes (or no-knock) and the agents >of the government enter to sieze 'illegal' weapons and ammunition. That day is not too long off, I fear...I came here 15 years ago from the USSR, and that very government that turns it's best and strongest into defacto criminals is Here and Now. We have one last chance to change this November...I hope we de because if we don't the People's Republic of America will be what we call home. From whitmore@tahoma.cwu.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:44 EDT 1994 Article: 288 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!tahoma.cwu.edu!tahoma.cwu.edu!not-for-mail From: whitmore@tahoma.cwu.edu (Rattlesnake Stu) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Water filtration Date: 16 Sep 1994 16:25:46 -0700 Organization: Central Washington University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <35d9hq$qkt@tahoma.cwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tahoma.cwu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] One of the key elements to body function is water, but storing it is not practical for long-term survival, due to space, weight, freshness, etc. Thus, to me, it seems important to have a reliable system for reclaiming contaminated water into a usably-pure form. I'd be interested to hear what systems people use, recommend, and/or would warn against. I'm interested in provision capacities ranging from on-the-trail to small community needs. Comments? -- (* Stuart Whitmore: whitmore@tahoma.cwu.edu, Arcane.Wisdom@UniNova.COM *) (* My writings do not specifically represent CWU. *) (* Unlike Clinton and many members of our government, I value your and *) (* my liberty and will fight to defend our mutual rights. Will you? *) From benke@csn.org Sat Sep 17 11:00:44 EDT 1994 Article: 289 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!benke From: benke@csn.org (David Benke) Subject: talk about this? Message-ID: Sender: news@csn.org (The Daily Planet) Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 23:24:50 GMT Lines: 19 Earlier poster was VERY right about storing fuel (in this case gasoline) I had a lawn mower that sat for 4 years. Not only did the fuel evaporate but the gunk completely clogged the fuel system. It is waiting for me to pull the fuel tank and de-gunk it. How long do fuel stablizers work? How long does fuel last under normal conditions. My dad, arbiter of all issues with regard to small engines, suggests you should drain the tank in a (insert internal combustion engine powered device here) even if you are planning to let it sit for a winter! How does MTBE (methyl-tetra butyl ether) put in gas affect the "shelf life". benke benke@csn.org From benke@csn.org Sat Sep 17 11:00:45 EDT 1994 Article: 290 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!benke From: benke@csn.org (David Benke) Subject: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Message-ID: Sender: news@csn.org (The Daily Planet) Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 23:32:40 GMT Lines: 6 Add Knowledge and WILL benke2csn.org Sorry bad edit. benke@csn.org ! From hollombe@polymath.tti.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:46 EDT 1994 Article: 291 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ttinews!polymath!hollombe From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) Subject: Re: MORE SURVIVAL EQUALS Message-ID: <1994Sep16.233734.23478@ttinews.tti.com> Sender: usenet@ttinews.tti.com (Usenet Admin) Nntp-Posting-Host: polymath.tti.com Organization: The Cat Factory References: <359urv$jtc@news.acns.nwu.edu> <35aq1o$sa8@news.acns.nwu.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 23:37:34 GMT Lines: 22 In article <35aq1o$sa8@news.acns.nwu.edu> abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) writes: }In article , }Sean A. Long wrote: }> }>Or crystal radio set without batteries... I've seen absolutely incredible }>crystal radio sets that need no power but pull in just about everything. }I've never heard of that... It sounds really cool-- where could I get one, }and how much do they go for? I built one when I was a kid. Total cost would be about $10 today. The crystal and headphones are the only real "components." Everything else is just wire. You make a tuning coil by winding 22 gauge magnet wire around a toilet paper roll and sanding the insulation off one strip of it. Tune by moving a piece of wire along the sanded strip. Nail all that down to a piece of scrap wood, string 100' of antenna wire outside somewhere, run a ground wire to a water pipe and you're all set. The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com) Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp "Learning about the U.S. from the popular 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. media is like learning about plumbing by Santa Monica, CA 90405 sitting in a cesspool." -- Michael Phelps From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:47 EDT 1994 Article: 292 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:39:47 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <35dac3$5qm@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <35d35s$g50@shemesh.tis.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu > >How in the world did you ever learn about edible plants? When I first took >up backpacking, I tried to learn what I could safely eat. I bought and read >several books and searched for better books. Inevitably, these books would >have pencil drawings of plants, and crude drawings at that. There was no way >I could identify a plant from the pictures and descriptions. Oh, maybe I Buy a copy of the Boy Scout Fieldbook. Most of the major edible plants are easily identifiable in the wild. But I wouldn't want to have to subsist on them all the time. Yech! ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:48 EDT 1994 Article: 293 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Why fully automatics? Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:45:08 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 41 Message-ID: <35dam4$cjn@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <35d6ak$brn@u.cc.utah.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article <35d6ak$brn@u.cc.utah.edu>, Chris Gunnell wrote: > >Here's one for a thread...What are some reasons to having a fully >automatic rifle for survival? The scenario is that society has collapsed, >no govt. exists, no trucking, etc. It would seem to me that for survival >the cities would cease to be. They do not support an agrarian society and >would be vastly more hostile than the "country". In this scenario why >would one want to have an automatic rifle? I would choose a bolt action >of 30-06 caliber or larger and save ammo. It would be perfectly adequate >for defending myself and family, and would also serve for hunting without >the complicated action and no ammo wasted. Any thoughts? > >-- >Chris Gunnell The opinions expressed by me are a direct >chris.gunnell@u.cc.utah.edu result of my upbringing, culture, and > habits. And maybe by that one time I was > kicked in the head by that water buffalo. I would generally agree. But it would depend on circumstances. Surely no economic collapse of such magnitude would occur without Government military forces being used to subdue the population during the ensuing food riots, etc. and this would end up in a police state situation. In which case, a good belt fed automatic weapon in .308 would be awfully nice to have mounted near your hideout to defend against patrols. But it would only be a supplement to your shoulder arms. Another reason why something like an M60 would be nice would be in defending against HORDES of hungry barbarians bent on taking what you have and killing you and your family. As there will surely be migrating masses of half starved lunatics moving out of the cities in droves, I would like to have one for these purposes as well. You can never be too heavily armed. ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From wilkes@@photobooks.gatech.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:48 EDT 1994 Article: 294 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!gt-news!wilkes From: wilkes@@photobooks.gatech.edu (Travis Works) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Why fully automatics? Date: 17 Sep 1994 00:02:39 GMT Organization: PhotoBooks Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <35dbmv$hkn@mordred.gatech.edu> References: <35d6ak$brn@u.cc.utah.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: photobooks.gatech.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Chris Gunnell (cg0898@u.cc.utah.edu) wrote: : Here's one for a thread...What are some reasons to having a fully : automatic rifle for survival? The scenario is that society has collapsed, : no govt. exists, no trucking, etc. It would seem to me that for survival : the cities would cease to be. They do not support an agrarian society and : would be vastly more hostile than the "country". In this scenario why : would one want to have an automatic rifle? I would choose a bolt action : of 30-06 caliber or larger and save ammo. It would be perfectly adequate : for defending myself and family, and would also serve for hunting without : the complicated action and no ammo wasted. Any thoughts? 1) I see no reason to stockpile a fully automatic weapon, esp. since doing so without a Class III license has been illegal for the last 60 years. I do keep a semi-automatic rifle (which is what most people mean by the term "automatic", although Klinton and the media have used this confusion against us), and I see no reason why a bolt action rifle would be better. 2) If I do get a chance to pick up a full-auto weapon "after the fall", I will take it - no reason to throw away options if there is no law to worry about. : -- : Chris Gunnell The opinions expressed by me are a direct : chris.gunnell@u.cc.utah.edu result of my upbringing, culture, and : habits. And maybe by that one time I was : kicked in the head by that water buffalo. -Travis "The Constitution is a radical document ... it is the job of the Government to reign in people's rights." -William Clinton From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:00:49 EDT 1994 Article: 295 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: 16 Sep 1994 23:56:48 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 121 Message-ID: <35dbc0$n6n@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article 1609941552170001@144.52.104.196, kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) writes: + + Being an EMT doesn't give me a good idea of what should be in there, +unfortunately. I'd love to take a wilderness EMT course, and then I'd +have a better idea. EMTs, *in general*, must stabilize a patient and +get them to the hospital as fast as possible. You stock up with +tools, and training, for stabilization - splits, bandages, MAST +trousers, O2, breath masks, and the like. + + A book on wilderness first aid would also provide a good list of what +you'd want to carry. *Completely* off the top of my head, I'd want to +have: + +Bandaging materials +* Sterile gauze, bandages, and tape +* Trauma pads The bandages don't need to be sterile, since the moment you open the package in a non-sterile environment the contents will cease to be sterile. The wound won't be sterile either. Fortunately there is a discount on non-sterile packed bul bandage materials :-). + +Splint materials +* Splint boards. +* Folding splint, perhaps +* Several slings. (Good for splints, slings, dressings, pads, etc.) All these things are improvised on site, from parts of backpacks, clothing, or if necessary, the surrounding natural environment. I do carry a couple of military surplus triangular bandages, but I use them as head-kerchiefs or sweat rags, not for slings :-). +Tools +* Rescue shears The shears are nice, but when I go backpacking I don't carry them due to bulk and lack of versatility. Instead I carry a swiss army knife with blades and scissors. It's a pain to use trauma sheers to cut fine pieces of molefoam. +* Scalpel My swiss army knife is sharp enough for any work I have to do. +* Flashlight +* Pen +* Notepad Yup. I carry these when backpacking anyhow. +* Stethescope +* BP cuff Nope. In the wilderness these things are nice, but not necessary. Aside from taking the BP, the steth. doesn't seem particularly useful, and you probably won't be taking BP in the wilderness. Odds are I'll be listening only for breath sounds, to detect internal injuries, and I can do that w/out a steth. +* Breath mask If you mean a CPR protective mask, I strongly agree! Dr. Weiss told an interesting story about a river rafter who stopped to give CPR to a victim of a fall from the riverside. The fall victim later died, and was diagnosed as having Hepatitis B! The rescuer was sure wishing he had a CPR mask. + +Fluids +* Alcohol +* Sterile water +* Betadine All you'll need is some betadine prep pads and clean water. I carry PolarPure to purify my drinking water, and according to Dr. Weiss (who's on a grant to study the use of sterile saline, betadine, and plain water for wound irrigation), use of clean water will have the lowest chance of contributing to bacterial growth in a wound in the wilderness. Pure betadine was the highest and sterile saline was next down on the list. 8 drops of betadine (*NOT* the Betadine surgical scrub!) per quart, left to sit for a while, will reportedly purify the water enough that it can be used to irrigate even deep wounds. Cut the corner off a prep pad envelop and squeeze out the betadine into water. I carry a 1 oz bottle of HibaClens (an anti-bacterial soap) to use in diluted form to clean scrapes and abrasions, but I think I'll replace that with Dial soap, so I can use it double duty for cleaning my clothes, dishes, etc. +For survival issues, with no regards to legal issues, I'd probably add: +* Painkillers +* Muscle relaxants +* Various other over the counter medicines The prescription meds I carry currently are Tylenol #3 (tylenol w/ codeine) and Keflex (an antibiotic). I also have Epinepherine (for anyphalactic emergencies) and Lydocaine (for if I ever have to debride a wound before closing it; an unlikely occurance). All these meds are for my personal use on myself only however. I would never presume to use them on someone else -- I'm not a doctor. + +*Please* do not take this as an exhaustive list. Please *do* read up on +it yourself, get the required training, and know how to use it. Ditto! --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From rodneywa@leo.unm.edu Sat Sep 17 11:00:50 EDT 1994 Article: 296 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!lynx.unm.edu!leo.unm.edu!rodneywa From: rodneywa@leo.unm.edu (Rodney C. Ward) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: A way to deal with pain Date: 16 Sep 1994 23:54:02 GMT Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque Lines: 15 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35db6q$dfu@lynx.unm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: leo.unm.edu One time I had a severe motorcycle accident, that caused a double compound facture of my leg. Anyway, this happened at 1 am in a place where there was no one. Instead of laying there and maybe bleeding to death, I crawled with my elbows and my back towards the ground and my leg elevated to a nearby street. I managed to flag down one of the few cars that passed by. I was under 18 years of age so the hospital couldn't give me any pain-killers without a signature from my mom, who was 120 miles away in my hometown. So again, I waited. Finally, at around 7 am I got what I wanted along with many jokes from the doctor about how he didn't treat motorcycle accident victims. Besides LOTS of cuss words and an occasional joke, I remember trying to like leave my body and just like float away for awhile. Maybe this was shock induced I don't know, but the idea itself did allow me to get my mind off the pain. A girl I know said she would do the same thing when she was being abused as a child. survival tip: My uncle told me that, when he was in Vietnam, that the children would gather around the street lights at night and eat the bugs attracted to the light. From greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:50 EDT 1994 Article: 297 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!koriel!male.EBay.Sun.COM!antizen!greg From: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com (Yes, I'm still here...) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Why fully automatics? Date: 17 Sep 1994 00:04:37 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35dbql$9im@male.EBay.Sun.COM> References: <35d6ak$brn@u.cc.utah.edu> Reply-To: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com >Here's one for a thread...What are some reasons to having a fully >automatic rifle for survival? The scenario is that society has collapsed, Etc. Let me take a stab at this.... Hummm, lets see, I can think of one reason - Because you're an exceptionally shitty marksman and need to let fly 100 bullets to your enemies 1? Greg From jdc@taligent.com Sat Sep 17 11:00:51 EDT 1994 Article: 298 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!taligent!dave-croyle.taligent.com!user From: jdc@taligent.com (The Kurgan) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Sender: usenet@taligent.com (More Bytes Than You Can Read) Organization: Banzai Institute References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.165947.14594@ictv.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:34:11 GMT Lines: 15 In article <1994Sep16.165947.14594@ictv.com>, tmh@ictv.com (Todd Hoff) wrote: ...... We've weaved the web, it will not be easily > undone. Except that EMP will cheerfully fry 99% of home/office pc's in a nuclear scenario. Again I say that the net is a resource and therefore by definition should not be overlooked, but certainly don't *depend* on it. Also your chances of success will be increased with planning. How will you deal with a lack of available power to run hardware? Will that EMP fry your machine? Will the phone line that runs out of your house (the one your modem probably depends on) be knocked out by a falling tree? Solve these problems before they *are* problems and you win half the battle. Just another 2¢. Dave From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 11:00:52 EDT 1994 Article: 299 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 17 Sep 1994 10:08 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 30 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199410085343@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35ai1j$j63@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo4.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <35ai1j$j63@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu>, honig@ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) writes... > rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: >>I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns >>the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't >>seen any posts on the subject *sigh* Maybe I'll have to >>post some files on the subject to straighten things out. >> > >>P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? > > >Unless you're volunteering, probably not. > >This group forked off rec.guns, not just rec.treehuggers :-), so >deal with it. Also, most people (alas) live in cities. Uh, no. This group did not "fork" off of anything. I created this group to deal with survival issues - which may include firearms. The people you call treehuggers are more welcome than those who want to have the plans for automatic weapons but don't know anything about tanning hides or preserving food (as another poster alreasy said...) ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 11:00:53 EDT 1994 Article: 300 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: rec.survialism: Practicum Yes Politics No Date: 17 Sep 1994 07:02:59 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org I have been interested in this topic for years. My family has a long history, Pre WW II, of caching and retreat preperation. I consult on land acquisition, self sufficiency and security. I am very political. What I hope to get from this group is a forum for practical ideas, suggestions and methods. What I don't need is somebody holding a match under the bulb of my political thermometer. I would like to invite others who feel this way to debate methods of keeping the flamage and political rants to a minimum. I for one plan to ask posters to politely take there discussions elsewhere. In return I plan to stick around and share my not inconsiderable knowledge *blush*. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 11:00:54 EDT 1994 Article: 301 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 17 Sep 1994 10:24 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199410242735@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> <35b05g$gd0@blkbox.blkbox.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo4.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <35b05g$gd0@blkbox.blkbox.COM>, guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) writes... >Gerald Brennan (gbrennan@umich.edu) wrote: >: George Guillory (guillory@blkbox.com) wrote: >: : Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that >: : the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms >: : (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. > >: But that's crazy. As unpleasant and _presumably_ irrelevant as these >: topics may be to some, they are indeed part of the picture, and should >: not be ignored. Those who don't wish to participate in those threads, if >: they develop, need not do so. The gun forums are not designed >: _specifically_ for the survivalist point-of-view. > >The problem I see about running a thread of more that one or two messages >about guns is that unfortunately they get longer and longer, non-gun >discussers move off and you would end up with a survival gun (mostly news >group. Look at what happended to Survive and American Survival Guide >(who is scraping back from such a move.) > >Now if someone wanted to start misc.survivalism.guns that is another matter. This might not be such a bad idea. When we created this group it was decided not to make this a forum for firearms. There are many facets of survivalism that have nothing to do with them and there are so many other groups that deal with guns. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 11:00:54 EDT 1994 Article: 302 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.dell.com!tadpole.com!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: The Gun Ban Date: 17 Sep 1994 10:27 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199410270798@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> <35b1ut$979@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo4.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <35b1ut$979@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) writes... >In article <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: >>I stole a MAK. > >How did a common criminal like yourself get net access? If this is how much >you respect others' rights, maybe you should join ATF. (snip rest of off topic post) This is an example of a non-topic post. If you want to discuss this, please do it in email or in a firearm usenet group. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 11:00:55 EDT 1994 Article: 303 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.dell.com!tadpole.com!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: FAQ Date: 17 Sep 1994 10:51 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 126 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199410511821@pavo.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo4.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 Welcome to the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for misc.survivalism! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Modified last on September 17, 1994 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ More than just a list of questions and answers, FAQ's are short introductions to the community that subscribe to the newsgroup. In misc.survivalism, we discuss survival theory. If there was one line we could lift out of our charter to sum up the group it would be, "The prevailing philosophy of misc.survivalism is that I and the ones I love want to remain alive no matter what." Q) What can we talk about on misc.survivalism? A) Anything to do with survival theory, including emergency prepardness. Need plans for a shelter? Ask. Fly an aircraft and want to know what to what to pack "just in case"? Ask. Hate firearms and want to spout off? _Don't_ ask - see next question. Q) What _don't_ you talk about in misc.survivalism? A) There are two main categories of posting _not_ appreciated on m.s. There is no moderator on this group - we like it that way. Post things in these two categories and you will get lots of hate mail... 1) Personal objections to theory which do not include survivalist/ emergency prepardness material. For example, if one person describes his technique for food hoarding - and you think it immoral - write to him or her in email. Don't put it on the group. Same thing about firearms, we're not pro- or anti-gun as a group. Individual members who wish to talk about that topic can go to talk.politics.guns. If someone posts something about survivalist therory which you believe is _technically_ wrong (like description of an edible plant for example) then go ahead and discuss that. 2) Postings which have nothing to do with our group. Someone who wants to know what to do with his collection of 15 illegal automatics belongs on rec.guns. Contrary to some misinformed users, we did _not_ split from rec.guns and do _not_ want to duplicate their group. Also don't spam us with ads for skin cream, lottery tickets, x-rated videos etc... Keep on topic, flames belong in alt.flame or through email. Q) How is this group controled? A) As said before, misc. survivalism is not moderated. We operate on common sense. If you see someone posting up non-survivalist material, we encourage you to send them a followup by email asking them to keep on target. No one wants a newsgroup with 150+ messages a day with only 25 posts of any substance... Q) Who's reading this group? A) There were over 400 people who voted for this group's creation. When I was starting this up, I met many of them through email. They come from as far away as Germany and Australia and from all walks of life. They are weekend campers, Boy Scout leaders, officers and enlisted men from armies all around the globe, or just people concerned with their safety. Something that surprised me (that really shouldn't have) is the number of women who mailed me during the groups proposal. Q) Anyone _else_ reading this group? A) By the very nature of survivalist theory, some people raise their eyebrows in suspicion. Therefore keep in mind that this is a public newsgroup and _anyone_ who has net access can read this group. This includes government agencies, so while it's not (at least on this group) prohibited to discuss techniques or actions which stray outside legal frameworks - it might be prudent to think carefully before putting your name on such a post. Using an anonymous server (one not based in your country) would be a helpful option. Q) I have a question not covered by this FAQ. A) I'm sure there are lots. This FAQ is still in its infancy. So for now, follow the above rules and you'll be fine. Questions I see repeated often will be added here. Q) Who are you? A) I am the proposer of misc.survivalism. For now I also do the FAQ, this might change if someone else wants the job... You can contact me by email at . Q) Where can I look for more information? A) Wendell has suggested a few books which might be helpful for getting basic information on the survival topic. Please mail any suggestions for additions (or deletions :) ) directly to him. General Books C.G. Cobb, Bad Times Primer. This provides an overview of most fields of self-reliance and makes recommendations for equipment and fields of study. Note that it was written around 1979, so some information is out of date. Bruce Clayton, Life After Doomsday. Primarily focused around nuclear war survival skills, this book provides basic information on survival skills and, more important, references to find out more about those skills covered in brief. This was written in the late 1970s, so some of the information is out of date. Self-Reliance Colin Fletcher, The Complete Walker Dean Ing, The Chernobyl Syndrome Mel Tappan, Tappan On Survival Nuclear War Survival Dean Ing, Pulling Through Cresson Kearny, Nuclear War Survival Skills Firearms Massad Ayoob, The Truth About Self Protection Massad Ayoob, Stressfire Mel Tappan, Survival Guns Reference Books American Radio Relay League, The Radio Amateur's Handbook CRC Press, CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics ["The Rubber Bible"] Medical Economics Company, Physicians Desk Reference ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From bruce@slc.com Sat Sep 17 11:20:58 EDT 1994 Article: 221 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!netcomsv!slcgate!servio!servio!bruce From: bruce@slc.com (Bruce Schuchardt) Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Message-ID: Lines: 100 Sender: news@slc.com (USENET News) Nntp-Posting-Host: servio Organization: Servio Corporation, Beaverton OR, USA References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> Date: 16 Sep 94 21:56:33 GMT rfelix@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) writes: >In article <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> rodneywa@triton.unm.edu (Rodney C. Ward) writes: >> >I wouldn't count on lemon juice to kill viruses or bacteria in water. >Use a filter, tablets or boil it.... I usually boil my water, too, but a friend recently suggested adding a few drops of bleach (you know, Clorox) to water to kill germs and then letting it sit overnight. I've been using bleach to disinfect beer- making equipment for years. Anyone heard of doing this before? -- Bruce Schuchardt bruce@slc.com (503)690-3520 From snet@world.std.com Sat Sep 17 11:20:59 EDT 1994 Article: 222 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!world!snet From: snet@world.std.com (Glenda M Stocks) Subject: SearchNet 5085866977 Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 23:18:37 GMT Lines: 106 This BBS / Net / Mailing list message is being posted for informational purposes in echoes related to info shared in Searchnet. I am available to respond to replies. In no way should this message be considered an 'attack' of any kind against a conference or network. My interest is in sharing info only. 508-586-6977 (XBN BBS, SearchNet HeadQuarters) 617-961-4865 International Searching For Your Individual PATH Network. The SearchNet network is for people to share information via modem. We are presently looking to add new members to carry our conferences, to ensure _reliable_ connections throughout the many changes expected to occur in telecommunications. Although some of our message areas are currently available in other networks, such as Mufonet, Internet, and Fidonet, we still need hubs and nodes ready to make mail available, in case any significant changes are made in existing connections. If you are already carrying some SearchNet echoes within another network, please consider signing up for a Searchnet node number. You will still get the echoes from your existing feeds, but will _already_ be connected in the event of any changes. Since March 1993, SearchNet has been providing a wealth of information on the status of our existence and Planet Earth. In the last 17 months, we have reached a point, where SearchNet has made a _significant_ impact on the telecommunications world. If I mention the words, "New World Order", then I can also tell you that there are _forces_ at work to limit the reach of SearchNet message areas. If SearchNet has touched you in any way in the last 17 months, then it is time that you _do_ what you can, to ensure that the lines of communication, and opportunities to discuss vital issues, continue, and expand to other people. Consider touching base with SearchNet Headquarters, check out the message areas, and files, and possibly sign up for a node number _now_, for the future. Some of those reading this message on the Internet or the snet-L mailing list, should consider setting up a small bbs, to ensure connections into the future. I am very _serious_ when I tell you that evidence _exists_ showing a concerted effort to limit and disparage SearchNet message areas. The degree to which these efforts are successful, depends on your _active_ participation in connecting SearchNet _directly_ and _reliably_ across the _world_. If people who benefit from the sharing of information within SearchNet do not actively _do_ something to continue it's existence, they will lose this resource. A word to the wise, should be sufficient. It _is_ time. * SOME * of the available SEARCHNET Message Conferences I_UFO UFO and New Science EARTH_CHANGES The Current Earth Changes and Transformation WORLD_NEWS Reports of significant World Events and Weather CHANNELS Messages from the spirit planes, and Channellers. Discussions of personal growth and transformation. ORVOTRON_PUB Public conference for Orvotron activities. Orvotron is The East Coast PowerPoint, a Tranformational Vortex! The site has a 39 foot Pyramid! Moderated by Walter Bartoo AKA Kortron NIGHT_SHIFT Independent NWO discussion based on Art Bell Radio Show SNET-L Our internet Mailing List covers all the above in one echo! Here are some of the topics: UFO's, Extra-terrestrials, contactees, abductees. Spiritual quests for soul evolvement-enlightenment Earth Changes, dimensional shift, Second Coming. Out of Body Experiences, Lucid dreaming New World Order conspiracies, and coverups Channelled messages from the non-physical realms Media reviews; books, newsletters, magazine, TV, movies Surviving the transition - Light Communities Telepathy - Voices - twinflames - soulmates Exercising discernment - intuition - inner guidance * Connecting Light Workers of Our Creator (God) Advertisements related to the topics on the list Solicitations for help - prayer - donations - subscriptions News Articles related to the topics of the list Prophecies - Bible - Nostradamus - Other Sources Angels - spirit guides - Oversoul (Higher Self) Internet users, to subscribe send email to: MAJORDOMO@WORLD.STD.COM In the body of the message include the words: subscribe snet-l address Where address is your E-mail box address. -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Zone Echo Coordinator (ZEC) for SEARCHNET is: Glenda Stocks XBN BBS Brockton MA 508-586-6977 (FidoNet-1:330/201) Freq SEARCH or call and download SEARCHNT.ZIP on the 1st call. QWK format mail exchange is also available for sysops AND users. -------------------------------------------------------------------- FTP privacy.com pub/glenda GLENDA STOCKS | FidoNet 1:330/201.0 SearchNet HeadQuarters | InterNet GS@rochgte.fidonet.org Snet Mailing List info, SEND | Data: 508-586-6977 / 617-961-4865 info snet-l TO | Download SEARCHNT.ZIP For Info! majordomo@world.std.com | Voicemail: +1-617-341-6114 Searchnet.zec@channel1.com | FidoNet CHANNELS, & I_UFO moderator * RM 1.3 00257 * You're invited to the wedding; Science and Spirituality! From zkessin@world.std.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:00 EDT 1994 Article: 223 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!world!zkessin From: zkessin@world.std.com (Zach) Subject: Re: Threat List Message-ID: Organization: As little as posible References: Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 01:48:46 GMT Lines: 58 rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: >Yesterday, Duane Mantick referred to the majority of people in >our country (and probably the industrialized world) as the >"take-for-granteds", and I couldn't agree more. How many people >know how to work an ox-driven plow? Or make butter? Raise livestock? >etc. etc. all the things necessary to long term basic survival. >The "take-for-granted" label embodies much of what my attitude ISN'T >towards survival. The Ammish will be ok. [stuff about power transformers] >These stations, as you have all certainly seen, are unguarded, and apparently >no one has taken steps to armor-plate these devices. Admittedly, the >hard part is the logistics of infiltrating 5,000 fanatics into our country >without anybody finding out. It's tough, but it's not impossible. This >is something that someone like Saddam Hussein might daydream about. Who neads to infiltrate, a tourist visa or people who are already here. THere are enough people in the USA and Canada that there is someone out there who might think of this. >I realize that I'm preaching to the choir here, but I just wanted to tell >you all this story. The biblical "armageddon" may not be necessary for >us to experience profound degradations to our standard of living. Suppose >it's not 5,000 fanatics taking out the US power grid. Suppose it's just >*50* taking out the transformers in the NYC metro area. They would be >out of power not for hours, but for DAYS, maybe even a week or more! What >do you think Manhattan will smell like when the toilets stop working for a >week? can we say epidemic boys and girls? Cholora for one and God knows what else. Not to mention de-hydration and other fun things. Never mind a breakdown of the food distrabution system. >I want to propose a sort of semi-formal "threat list", a list of the >sorts of threats that we, as survivalists want to protect ourselves >from. Once the list reaches some maturity, we can address specific >scenarios and try to develop a compilation of strategies of defense. >This list is sort of ordered (according to my personal perceptions) from >most common/ most dangerous to least common / least dangerous, but it >needn't stay ordered that way: >1 Hypothermia >2 Thirst >3 Hunger >4 Sore feet >5 Bad Hygiene (lice, foot fungus, sepsis) I would up this one. In part because bad hygiene is so easy to take steps agenst. I was using port-o-jons for a 2 week period this august and was very impressed that they all had hand sanitation stuff. Also its amasing what a bit of bleach in water will do. Zach not exactly a survivalist. zkessin@world.std.com From jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:00 EDT 1994 Article: 224 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Reinforced Concrete Specifications? Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:22:00 GMT Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 15 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35ck7o$66f@nexus.uiowa.edu> References: <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu >From article <1994Sep15.190839.22308@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA>, by mcalvert@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Murray Brain Calvert): > I am planning to build an earth-sheltered house in the country (None of > your business where!). I would like the structure to withstand a major > earthquake or atomic blast from 10 miles away. Get yourself a copy of the Swiss building code -- a code that requires all new construction to have basements that provide protection against firestorms and an overpressure of one bar. Basically, if the world outside is worth getting out into, the standard modern Swiss basement will protect you so you can enjoy it. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:01 EDT 1994 Article: 225 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Threat List Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 17:13:11 GMT Lines: 109 Yesterday, Duane Mantick referred to the majority of people in our country (and probably the industrialized world) as the "take-for-granteds", and I couldn't agree more. How many people know how to work an ox-driven plow? Or make butter? Raise livestock? etc. etc. all the things necessary to long term basic survival. The "take-for-granted" label embodies much of what my attitude ISN'T towards survival. Some of you may recall an article that G. Gordon Liddy wrote maybe ten years ago for OMNI magazine, entitled "An Open Memorandum to the President of the United States" where he enumerated what he thought were the top ten (or so) greatest mass terrorist threats to the United States as an industrialized nation. The one that most got my attention was a threat to our electrical power grid. Here is how he describes the threat. We have all seen a "power station", a fenced in, but otherwise unguarded compound with gravel on the ground and lots of Dr. Frankenstein looking electrical boxes, with a spiderweb of high voltage wires leading away over the horizon on those tall steel towers. These are "step-down" transformer stations, where the 120,000 or so volt long-distance power is converted to the 15,000 volt or so flavor of electricity that runs through the wires on those wooden poles around your house, apartment, etc. The 2 or 3 foot tall cans on the pole near your house further step the voltage down to 115 volts that runs through the wires in your house. Now here's the threat: those great big boxes at the 120Kv --> 15Kv stations, the cubes that are about 10 feet on a side, those things (according to Liddy) are apparently ONLY made in Germany. They each take about a year to make. There are only SO MANY of them on reserve in this country. And a .458 Winchester magnum rifle will kill them as dead as Julius Caesar. Liddy's assertion was that 5,000 soldiers of the Jihad, equipped with such rifles, if infiltrated into the country, could destroy our electrical power grid completely for several months. It would be months before even the big cities *started* to get electrical power back. Rural areas would be thrown back 100 years, and they'd *stay* that way, maybe for years. "So what?", you might ask. Think about it. Pumps use electricity to run. The pumps at the gas station. The water that comes out of your city faucet is pumped. The trucks that bring food and medicine and shoes and hammers and nails run on gasoline that comes out of those pumps. Even if you *have* an electric generator, how are you going to get gas for it? Forget about the horror of losing electric light, 911 or X-Ray machines. You won't even be able to get clean water if we lose the power grid. Think about that the next time you drive past one of those power stations. These stations, as you have all certainly seen, are unguarded, and apparently no one has taken steps to armor-plate these devices. Admittedly, the hard part is the logistics of infiltrating 5,000 fanatics into our country without anybody finding out. It's tough, but it's not impossible. This is something that someone like Saddam Hussein might daydream about. I realize that I'm preaching to the choir here, but I just wanted to tell you all this story. The biblical "armageddon" may not be necessary for us to experience profound degradations to our standard of living. Suppose it's not 5,000 fanatics taking out the US power grid. Suppose it's just *50* taking out the transformers in the NYC metro area. They would be out of power not for hours, but for DAYS, maybe even a week or more! What do you think Manhattan will smell like when the toilets stop working for a week? That's what really suprised me about the World Trade Center bombing. It's spectacular, and it got the next day's headlines. But the attack I just described would get headlines, and more headlines, and after a week, it would be the biggest story of the century. And apparently no one in our government or public utilities sector is doing anything about it. But, luckily, neither are those fanatic terrorists. Maybe those folks just don't *get* Omni magazine... ------------- I want to propose a sort of semi-formal "threat list", a list of the sorts of threats that we, as survivalists want to protect ourselves from. Once the list reaches some maturity, we can address specific scenarios and try to develop a compilation of strategies of defense. This list is sort of ordered (according to my personal perceptions) from most common/ most dangerous to least common / least dangerous, but it needn't stay ordered that way: 1 Hypothermia 2 Thirst 3 Hunger 4 Sore feet 5 Bad Hygiene (lice, foot fungus, sepsis) 6 Human Assailant 7 Incarceration 8 Animal Attack 9 Panic (I have read accounts of people, bitten by nonvenomous snakes who, due to irrational fear, went into shock and died! More common are those who panic and get injured or killed because they could not think clearly) 10 Falls (tripping, falling off ladder, etc.) 11 Automobile accident (this is your biggest threat right now! You can prepare for "the big one" all you want, but if you get killed tonight on your way home from work, none of it will have mattered) 12 Concerted Human Assault (by a group) 13 ...? ...add to this list, and we can put it in the FAQ. We can build on it and use it as a framework for our discussions. Regards, rdh From rpnelson@Netaxs.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:02 EDT 1994 Article: 226 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!isclient.merit.edu!msuinfo!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!rpnelson From: rpnelson@Netaxs.com (r.nelson) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 17 Sep 1994 02:03:16 GMT Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Lines: 32 Message-ID: <35dip4$9d6@netaxs.com> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.165947.14594@ictv.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: unix2 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Todd Hoff (tmh@ictv.com) wrote: : In article , : >I for one am not counting on Usenet or the Internet to survive : >a major disaster such as a nuclear holocaust. Even a local : >disaster such as a major flood would probably destroy my : >personal net.access. : > : >Good ol' radios might be our best best for reestablishing : >communications. What say the rest of you? : > : Since TCP/IP networks were designed to survive nuclear strikes : it's likely the internet will survive, perhaps with reduced : capability but it will survive. Your service access point may : get creamed however. internet feeds are available over the : satellite. You can dial into a remote BBS which is connected : to the internet. Or you can talk with remote hams who : are connected. We've weaved the web, it will not be easily : undone. In regional disasters/civil unrest scenarios, the internet might still be there, but what about the big stuff like major war- civil or international, or a complete collapse of national goverment? I would think that to avoid its use by "the enemy", the government would simply TURN OFF the backbone data highways. Precident-during WW1 and WW2, ham radio operators were kicked off the air for the duration. My vote would be for VHF packet with encrytion capability. If the shit really hits the fan, the government, if it still existed, would be too busy to enforce FCC regs. And if internet and "offical" ham radio is gone (transmitting of any kind is illegal), you will need all the steath you can afford. From dmercer@oracle.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:03 EDT 1994 Article: 227 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!sgiblab!gatekeeper.us.oracle.com!dcsun4.us.oracle.com!dmercer From: dmercer@oracle.com (David Mercer) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: The Gun Ban Date: 16 Sep 94 11:20:48 Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores, CA Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ap285sun.us.oracle.com In-reply-to: Tommy the Tourist's message of 15 Sep 1994 22:06:54 GMT In article <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: > I stole a MAK. I also found an 80-round drum magazine from China and a > night scope. My friend knows about a really good gunsmith with all > the tools we need to make it fully automatic. > > -------- > For more information about this anonymous posting service,please send mail > to remailer@csua.berkeley.edu with Subject: remailer-info. > -------- I discovered recently that some anonymous mailers append a paragraph like the one above automatically to overwhelm FBI/NSA or other government monitors. When you see some really weird paragraph at the end of a mostly sane post, check to see if it was anonymous. ---DBM From hdavis@usbr.gov Sat Sep 17 11:21:03 EDT 1994 Article: 228 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!borcore.usbr.gov!news From: hdavis@usbr.gov Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Survivalism=Guns Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:18:18 GMT Organization: U.S. Bureau of Reclamation Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35cnha$gih@borcore.usbr.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.5.233.29 X-Newsreader: AIR News 2.0 (SPRY, Inc.) Just my thoughts on the subject. In a survival situation, vs. a combat or post-societal-breakdown situation, a gun is usable as a tool and should be treated as such. I would not want to be stranded in the wilderness without one -- be it a single shot.22 on up to a 12 gauge. However, my primary focus would be on surviving without using a gun. Heinlien(sp?) wrote a good survival/sci-fi story called "Hole in the Sky" or some such where the main character is supposed to survive on an alien planetfor a day or two as a final grade in a survival course. Instead they get stuck for several years. He made the point that those with the large, flashy guns seem to think of themselves as predators rather than prey and tended to be the ones that killed themselves off rather quickly. And that is my main point about guns -- as long as they are used as a tool like any other, fine. But those who begin to collect/use military style guns (no flames, I am talking about those models which have several salient features such as large capacity detachable magazines, pistol grips, etc, and I must admit I have owned and do own several inthis catagory but DO NOT think of them as survival guns except and unless I would have to get my family out of a combat zone) tend to develop a mindset which is not conducive to surviving, ie., the gun can take care of the problems and forget that often times the best way to keep on breathing is to simply not be noticed. Or the predator vs. prey mindset. For a relevant discussion see the "One gun any environment" thread in rec.guns. From kovar@nda.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:04 EDT 1994 Article: 229 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!news.kgc.com!kpc!NewsWatcher!user From: kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: The Gun Ban Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:07:24 -0800 Organization: Net Daemons Associates, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> <35b1ut$979@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.52.104.196 In article <35b1ut$979@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) wrote: > In article <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: > >I stole a MAK. > > How did a common criminal like yourself get net access? If this is how much > you respect others' rights, maybe you should join ATF. > > >I also found an 80-round drum magazine from China and a > >night scope. My friend knows about a really good gunsmith with all > >the tools we need to make it fully automatic. > > Before converting it, check to make sure it's operating correctly. The > muzzle is a viewport. Look in and operate the trigger. These anonymous mailers are getting annoying. They intentionally create messages like the above to generate confusion for anyone attempting to monitor them. In so doing, they also create "flame-bait", which prompts repsonses like the above. *sigh* -David From kovar@nda.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:05 EDT 1994 Article: 230 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!news.kgc.com!kpc!NewsWatcher!user From: kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:16:00 -0800 Organization: Net Daemons Associates, Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.52.104.196 I used to be an EMT and put together my own jump kit. It has everything that I generally need while in my car, but I'd like to find something better for long term survival. Can anyone recommend a commerical first aid kit designed for long term survival that is well thought out and well put together? One reason I want something commerical is that they are generally packaged better than anything I can do myself. I have bought all the correct pieces myself, but I end up with a lot left over, and it is not as neatly packaged as I would like. -David From jdidden@Emerald.tufts.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:06 EDT 1994 Article: 231 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!usenet.elf.com!news2.near.net!emerald.tufts.edu!emerald.tufts.edu!not-for-mail From: jdidden@Emerald.tufts.edu (Jason Didden) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Good Books: Tom Brown's Series Date: 16 Sep 1994 14:22:46 -0400 Organization: Tufts University Lines: 28 Message-ID: <35cnpm$2va@Emerald.tufts.edu> References: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com>,<35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: emerald.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] 131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 (rdh@arriva.dr.att.com) wrote: : For the biblio section of the FAQ, I'd recommend any of Tom : Brown's books. There is a "Wilderness Survival" book, a book on : tracking animals, an "Urban Survival" book, and others. I've got a list acctually and thought that maybe I could save you the trouble: Philosophy books: The Tracker The Search The Vision The Quest The Journey Grandfather Awakening Spirits Wilderness Survival Series: Tom Brown's Field Guide to City and Suburban Survival " " The Forgotten Wilderness " " Living With the Earth " " Nature and Survival for Children " " Nature Observation and Tracking " " Wilderness Survival " " Wild Edible and Medicinal Plants The publisher is Berkley Books, NY I've found that most bookstores have or will order them for you. From ctdonath@mothra.syr.EDU Sat Sep 17 11:21:06 EDT 1994 Article: 232 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!newstand.syr.edu!ctdonath From: ctdonath@mothra.syr.EDU (Carl T. Donath) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Remember Koubaton? Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:34:25 GMT Organization: Syracuse University Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <35cjjn$rf8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mothra.syr.edu In-reply-to: PA's message of 16 Sep 1994 17:11:19 GMT In article <35cjjn$rf8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> PA writes: I am interested in getting some info on a martial art technique known as "Koubaton" The Kubotan, developed by martial arts master Tac Kubota, is available from numerous police catalogs. It's also known as the "Persuader" (name given by a prime manufacturer). Ideally, take the training course from Massad Ayoob (self-defense & police trainer, author of "In The Gravest Extreme", "Stressfire", and many other books) - try talking a local sportsman or surviaval club into having him visit & locally teach the Kubotan course along with "The Judicious Use of Deadly Force" (I can give you more details if you like - e-mail me). The Kubotan is a "pain compliance device", a ribbed cylinder which, when applied properly, can cause enough pain to drop almost anyone. It doubles as a handy keychain, which (a) keeps it handy without appearing to be a weapon (it comes in black, white, or neon orange), and (b) the keys, when attached, can be used to enhance fighting capabilities. It's completely legal in all 50 states, except on airplanes (the FAA, in their infinite lack of wisdom, classify it a weapon (but of course you may carry your pocketknife on board)). The Kubotan was developed from Tac Kubota's pen fighting technique (which had the problem of pens breaking during certain moves). Get the Police Bookshelf catalog - there should be a book about it in there somewhere. Also find out when Massad Ayoob will be in your area (the Police Bookshelf people should be able to give you pointers). -- _____/ ctdonath@rodan.acs.syr.edu Carl T Donath \_____ / The second amendment is the only right that guarantees \ \ the preservation of all other rights. / From behanna@syl.nj.nec.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:07 EDT 1994 Article: 233 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver.nj.nec.com!behanna From: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com (Chris BeHanna) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:27:45 GMT Organization: NEC Systems Laboratory, Inc. Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35co31$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> References: <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com> <35a14d$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Reply-To: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com NNTP-Posting-Host: syl.nj.nec.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] In article <35a14d$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Rosaria Locasso (locasso@tis.com) wrote: :>In article 1jv@rigel.infinet.com, lovecraf@infinet.com (Ed Michalski) writes: :>> :>> There are certain gas additives which can prolong the life of stored :>> gasoline far greater than our lifetimes. :>> :>Ed, :>Can you tell us what these additives are? Are they easily available? :>Expensive? Where can we get them? Sta-Bil is the best. It's cheap. Get it at the auto parts store. -- Chris BeHanna DoD# 114 KotSTA Ed Green 1975 CB360T - Baby Bike behanna@syl.nj.nec.com Fan Club #004 1991 ZX-11 - Zexy kore wa NEC no iken de gozaimasen. FOLMA #17 1973 RD350A - seized Why is Lon Horiuchi still breathing? 1987 EX500 - the RaceBike From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:21:08 EDT 1994 Article: 234 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:08:26 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 24 Message-ID: <35cmuq$kq2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35bk0e$34l@news.u.washington.edu> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com +In article <35ao6d$gsu@engnews2.eng.sun.com>, +Robert Allen wrote: + +> The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 + + I give up. Does this have something to do with the baseball +strike? Pardon my lack of distress, but I recall a similar obituary when +South Carolina required drivers to use headlights in rainy weather. + + + --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:21:09 EDT 1994 Article: 235 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:14:21 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 28 Message-ID: <35cn9t$kql@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35cmuq$kq2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article kq2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM, rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) writes: + ++In article <35ao6d$gsu@engnews2.eng.sun.com>, ++Robert Allen wrote: ++ ++> The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 ++ ++ I give up. Does this have something to do with the baseball ++strike? Pardon my lack of distress, but I recall a similar obituary when ++South Carolina required drivers to use headlights in rainy weather. That's the date that the Crime Bill passed. Aside from banning nearly 300 guns either by name or the fact that they hold more than 10 rounds, the law also increases the number of death penalty crimes, funds drug courts and drug jails (on abandoned military bases, i.e. like concentration camps), and forces more mandatory federal programs on the states. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:09 EDT 1994 Article: 236 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? In-Reply-To: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com's message of 16 Sep 1994 19:46:02 GMT Message-ID: <1994Sep17.031154.26790@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics References: <35cslq$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 03:11:54 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 83 In <35cslq$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com writes: > based around carrying lots of meds and advanced stuff (usually sutures > and narcotics). With this approach there's a great potential for making > things worse, which defeats the whole purpose. I recently started putting together a first-aid kit and made a list of things that I new how to use and would want to have in a pinch. I didn't include things like cervical collars and IV's because I'm not an EMT and wouldn't know what to do with them. Basicly, I wanted to be able to handle the commonest of injuries long enough to give the pros a chance to respond, if necessary, and to be able to handle those little annoyances (like colds and bug bites) that make being outside miserable. You will notice that most of the materials are for treating minor wounds. I suspect that in a real survival situation, with a breakdown in our personal hygiene, we would be really susceptible to infected cuts. Most people can be trained with minimum effort to check for and treat problems with 'breathing, bleading and shock'. Hence the profusion of bandages and a couple space blankets (maybe one of those plastic airways, but I don't know how much training beyond basic mouth-to-mouth they require). Anyway, here's the list Hot Pack Cold Pack 3 x 5 military-style bandages (are these Carlisle Bandages?) Ace bandage adhesive tape betadine neosporin 'band-aid' type bandages 2" adhesive gauze pads 2" gauze pads 4" gauze pads 2" gauze strip/bandage scissors penny cutters cigarette lighter (quick sterilization of needles and fire starter) straight pins (survivalists get splinters, too) tweezers felt tip permanent marker (...I will mark the casualty's forhead with a 'T'...) x-acto knife vaseline isopropyl alcohol soap wash-n-dry towlettes burn bandages (the water/gel based things) penlight cotton balls space blanket (for preventing shock or hypothermia) ibuprofen aspirin acetaminophen sudafed some oral antihistimine benadryl spray (my wife is sensitive to bug bites) ammonia (smelling salt replacement and takes the itch out of mosquito bites) cold medcine bactine ben-gay tinactin throat losenges clorox (can be used to treat questionable water in a pinch) q-tips -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:10 EDT 1994 Article: 237 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers In-Reply-To: alb0@roger.gte.com's message of 16 Sep 1994 20:28:10 GMT Message-ID: <1994Sep17.032148.27410@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.135348.9363@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> <35cv4q$5us@ceylon.gte.com> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 03:21:48 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 45 In <35cv4q$5us@ceylon.gte.com> alb0@roger.gte.com writes: > > Or if you're into real security, you'd encrypt using a well-designed > one-time pad and then transmit spread-spectrum. Clipper my *ss! :-) > The other advantage is that detecting spread spectrum is pretty > hard...interestingly, spread spectrum is legal in the amatuer > bands. I'm not familiar with spread spectrum. My ARRL membership lapsed a couple years ago and I haven't been keeping up :-( . > signal against static and the like). I think F3E emmissions > are prohibited in the CB bands. Actually, I was thinking about using HF packet equipment at the slower bit-rate and using the standard tones and AM. Is that A3? I ferget... > As usual, I tried to connive a solution...how about getting a board > that automatically sends/receives morse from a computer file? > Thus, you take a file, PGP it, send it to your morse board, > it gets send out as a PGP message in morse (thus passing the > emission as an A1 or J1), and the signal is detected on the > other end. Ugly and inefficient, but it might work... Actually, I LIKE it! There are certain advantages to A1 emissions like they would not be readily apparent to the casual AM listener and they would propagate better than AM through QRM er... Noise and fading (sorry, forgot where I was for a minute...) -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From hdavis@usbr.gov Sat Sep 17 11:21:11 EDT 1994 Article: 239 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!borcore.usbr.gov!news From: hdavis@usbr.gov Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: COMPUTERS Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:54:11 GMT Organization: U.S. Bureau of Reclamation Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35cpkj$iae@borcore.usbr.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.5.233.29 X-Newsreader: AIR News 2.0 (SPRY, Inc.) I do hate to tell you folks this, but since I do work with the net I can say that it is not set up to survive any sort of majordisaster, let alone a nuclear war. The MILITARY version of the internet (MILNET) is designed as much as possible to withstand nuclear strikes. A lot of backup communications capacity via sat links is devoted to this, but how much you want to bet we peons get to use it? Point in case, Denver gets a lot of lightening strikes during the summer. We have a Stratacom IPX switch as well as a Cisco 7000 router. They sit on the floor and are grounded. A lightening strike *near* the building downed them. This was only secondary EM radiation which did this. Can you image what a full scale EMP will do to IC components? And how about power? A few data centers are set up with backup generator capacity. Most of them only have a few hours to a couple of days of fuel on hand. And how about the TELCO CO's? Take out the power grid (ala Andrew) and phone service is *out* until power comes back. And the lease lines the internet rides on are going to be some of the last ones restored. Emergency service providers come back first (at least when I worked with CD officials out in Hawaii that was the plan). Get a good CB radio and asupply of batteries as well as one of those solar powered rechargers (full day in sunshine should recharge up to four D cells). From bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:12 EDT 1994 Article: 240 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!oucsace!bjohnson From: bjohnson@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Benjamin Johnson) Subject: Re: Sodomites in Christian rightwing? Message-ID: Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens References: <358q5l$jjp@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <359ifb$hel@news.bu.edu> Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:45:18 GMT Lines: 26 In article falstaff@netcom.com (anthony m. vervoort) writes: >rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: > >>Henry T Robertson (htrst1+@pitt.edu) wrote: >>: In article , >>: Benjamin Johnson wrote: > >>: >James Warner, of Sons of Liberty in Louisiana, admittedly an Odinist, not >>: >an Identity Christian, was supposed to have been David Duke's girlfriend. > >>: There are lots of white supremacists who have disavowed themselves >>: from Christianity, since they see it as a religion started by the Jews. > >>*****What relevance does this have to this newsgroup? > > >yeah, if you want to go trolling, try the personals newsgroups. > >"You're pretty funny, for a fuckin' idiot." -Adam Sadler XOXOXOXO, BJ From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:12 EDT 1994 Article: 241 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Curing Meat Date: 16 Sep 1994 15:12:48 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 14 Message-ID: <35cqng$1oi@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Can someone knowledgeable on this subject please post instructions on how to properly cure / smoke and preserve meat from a big game animal? I'm an experience deer and small game hunter but I have no experience in preserving the meat with means other then a freezer. Thanks for the help. ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:13 EDT 1994 Article: 242 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!male.EBay.Sun.COM!antizen!greg From: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com (Yes, I'm still here...) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:33:45 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 36 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35crup$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com Gary asks; >I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can >anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, >hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. I'm not a "knife expert" but I talk knives frequently with those who know alot about them. What I've learned can be summed up in "Greg's law of knife selection". "The more you pay for a knife, the less you'll use it" I bought a Marine Corp. bowie (yes, the same one you've all seen around since WW II) from Robert Allen's specialty company and then paid a little extra to have it custom sharpened. Actually, Robert sold it too me with a working edge that he put on himself, but I got anal about it. Oh well. THEN I spent a few more dollars on a really bitchin sheath, made by Eagle, from Cutlery Shoppe. It's cordura, can be tied or worn a million different ways, and has a nice pocket in it. I value the sheath more than them knife. I can use the knife. If I screw it up, I can replace it in a day. Don't even think of knife throwing as a defensive or offensive combat technique. If you miss, you just gave away a deadly weapon to your enemy who will be glad to return it to you - point first. Greg P.S. Actually, I've been eyeing the knew SOG brand SEAL's issue knife B^) From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:14 EDT 1994 Article: 243 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!news.bu.edu!gw1.att.com!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Threat List Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:46:13 GMT Lines: 9 oops, in my last message, I said "biggest story of the century". I was thinking "decade" but my fingers weren't listening! I would think that WWII and the Apollo Moon Landings (for starters) would eclipse such an attack on NYC easily. sorry, rdh From locasso@tis.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:14 EDT 1994 Article: 244 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Ratings system... Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:35:19 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 42 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35cs1n$g50@shemesh.tis.com> References: <35aa9u$nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu, abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) writes: > A couple posts have stressed the need for PRIORITIES: what's more important, a > gun or a can opener, a radio or surplus blankets. Good questions. I hope reason, rather than hysteria, can guide our discussions of how to be prepared. > I propose a ratings system for use within the group, something which could > allow someone to post: "I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo > should be a category 2 item." and everyone could tell what they were saying, > rather than having to describe the conditions under which items would be > necessary. I'm thinking of something like > > Rating Description > > 1 Absolutely Necessary > 2 Necessary > 3 Important > 4 Useful > 5 Luxury > 6 Stupid > 7 Dangerous > > I'm new at this, so let the flames begin!!! Not flaming you, but I bet we would spend years trying to clarify the difference between Important and Useful, trying to agree on where the line is drawn between Absolute Necessary and Necessary. We'd have to start a new newsgroup just to talk about this! :-) Why not just let the writer say "I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo are necessary"? Rosaria Locasso From greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:15 EDT 1994 Article: 245 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!koriel!male.EBay.Sun.COM!antizen!greg From: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com (Yes, I'm still here...) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:46:02 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. Lines: 31 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35cslq$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: greg@antizen.ebay.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com David asks; > I used to be an EMT and put together my own jump kit. It has everything >that I generally need while in my car, but I'd like to find something >better for long term survival. Adventure Medical Kits puts out the closest to what you're probably looking for, IMHO. Frankly, I believe in "training first". Carry what you know how to use. Lots of people ask about kits who don't have any current training, or whose training is not appropriate. The approach for them seems to be based around carrying lots of meds and advanced stuff (usually sutures and narcotics). With this approach there's a great potential for making things worse, which defeats the whole purpose. But, to each their own. Western Mountaineering, in San Jose CA, carries the full line of Adventure kits. You might want to call them and get a number to recieve a catalogue. Greg From behanna@syl.nj.nec.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:16 EDT 1994 Article: 246 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver.nj.nec.com!behanna From: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com (Chris BeHanna) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:20:50 GMT Organization: NEC Systems Laboratory, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35cr6i$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Reply-To: behanna@syl.nj.nec.com NNTP-Posting-Host: syl.nj.nec.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] In article <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> bucket O brains (bw004b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu) wrote: :>I personaly like the M-16. What more could you ask for? I mean apart from :>the necesity of keeping it very clean. It's light, very accurate, more :>powerfull than you will ever need, and has excelent range. I can't see :>needing more than 550m of pin point accuracy, and 800m of area target :>accuracy. As for the ammo, 5.56 should not be that hard to find after a :>revolution because of vast amount that the goverment has sould not be hard to :>get a hold of. O well it's too bad I can't get one for my self. Pitty Col. Cooper holds the M-16 in contempt and recommends the M-1 in its place. Can't get that either, EXCEPT that you can buy it used from someone who legally owned it before Tuesday, as transfers of grandfathered weapons are also grandfathered. Good luck trying to find someone to give theirs up, though. Tip: someone said you could reload using white-tipped matches for primers. Anyone have any info on this? It would seem to be survival-relevant. -- Chris BeHanna DoD# 114 KotSTA Ed Green 1975 CB360T - Baby Bike behanna@syl.nj.nec.com Fan Club #004 1991 ZX-11 - Zexy kore wa NEC no iken de gozaimasen. FOLMA #17 1973 RD350A - seized Why is Lon Horiuchi still breathing? 1987 EX500 - the RaceBike From decastro@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:16 EDT 1994 Article: 247 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!decastro From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 04:35:28 GMT Lines: 24 jdf7@po.cwru.edu (Jeremy Friesen) writes: >In article <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu >(Shane Patrick Ahern) wrote: >> Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications >> in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as >> constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? >Unfortunatly, in a serious disaster (earthquake, comet collision, Nuke >ware), internet access would more than likely be SERIOUSLY disrupted. If >it did still function, then yes, it might prove useful for survivors to >communicate. Gee. When we were designing the internet back in '70, one of the things we especially planned on was survival after a nuke war. It's self routing, and multipathing. If you can get a connection (that's your problem, but after the Northridge earthquake I didnt have phones or power, but I was on the net). -- ============================================================================ decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! -Don't Tread On Me!- ============================================================================ From waddell@firnvx.firn.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:17 EDT 1994 Article: 248 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!mailer.acns.fsu.edu!news From: waddell@firnvx.firn.edu (Kathy Waddell) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Needs (Was Threat List) Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:17:07 GMT Organization: Florida Info Resource Network Lines: 76 Message-ID: <35cug3$eu2@mailer.fsu.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: kathy.firn.edu X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 In article , rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) says: > ... >This list is sort of ordered (according to my personal perceptions) from >most common/ most dangerous to least common / least dangerous, but it >needn't stay ordered that way: > >1 Hypothermia >2 Thirst >3 Hunger >4 Sore feet >5 Bad Hygiene (lice, foot fungus, sepsis) >6 Human Assailant >7 Incarceration >8 Animal Attack >9 Panic >... Instead of listing these under the heading of threats, I would prefer to list needs for survival: 1 air 2 water 3 food 4 clothing 5 shelter 6 medical supplies 7 hygienic supplies 8 tools 9 supportive attitude etc Attitude: I don't plan to merely survive, I plan to thrive. When a person has allowed fear and panic to take over then it doesn't matter how many gadgets and supplies they have to survive. They're life isn't worth living anyway, IMO. The right mental attitude is probably more imortant than any practicle preparations. By all means make plans, gather stuff, be prepared. But don't be so locked into things going the way you plan that when things don't you won't be able to addapt. When talking about survival there are 2 main kinds, short-term emergency survival and long-term survival. Short-term and long-term survival will require different ways to supply the basic needs. In short-term survival, gathering emergency supplies and planning will probably be best done in small groups working independently. In long- term survival I think a small community of people working together is necessary. In such a situation knowledge is power. Learn some useful skills. Posessions can be stolen, whether they are food, tools or guns. Your knowledge and ability will be your most valuable assets. After that speel about attitude now to the practicle. I would like to see developed a list or several lists of equipment and supplies for emergency or short-term survival. This type of survival could be broken down into 3 areas. The first area would be for the home or some permanent shelter, the next area would be equivalent to car camping and the third would be equivalent to back-packing. I am especially interested in ways to supply water for each of these scenarios. Could the FAQ, or multiple FAQs if the one gets too large, cover each of the basic needs, whatever we decide they may be. A FAQ or section about water could contain basic instructions on various techniques that would address emergency to long-term solutions. It could contain references to catalogues for ordering equipment and book recommendations for more info. What do you all think? --- Have fun! =-Kathy-> waddell@firnvx.firn.edu From hall@macs.ico.tek.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:18 EDT 1994 Article: 249 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!news.tek.com!macs!macs!not-for-mail From: hall@macs.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Magnetic Pole Navigation Date: 16 Sep 1994 12:49:10 -0700 Organization: Maxim Integrated Products, Beaverton OR. Lines: 233 Message-ID: <35csrm$m6@macs.ico.tek.com> References: <35cbt5$7vn@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: macs.ico.tek.com Unless you are right on top of the magnetic pole a compass will work. It may point east, west, or even south in the vicinity of the magnetic poles but the important things are: 1. The compass points in a consistent direction (it will unless you are going around the pole), and 2. You know how to use it, including how to compensate for declination. 3. You know other navigation things like paying attention to where you are, terrain etc., how to read a map etc. Here is something I posted previously on rec.backcountry on how not to get lost: How can a person avoid getting lost? A good question and there is probably no simple answer. However, there are some tried and true techniques which help. I think it is helpful to divide this subject into two rather broad categories: I. Developing a "feel" for the land, a sort of mental map. I think we all do this more or less with our home territory. We know which streets intersect and approximately how they relate to each other. Most of us have little trouble finding our way between our homes, work, friends houses, etc. We usually have a sort of mental map of this familiar terrain. When we visit Joe we just go to his house, we don't have to think about going so many blocks one way then looking for street names etc. When we arrive in unfamiliar surroundings it helps to quickly start developing something similar for them. II. "Formal" navigation using compass, altimeter or other aids (including some natural ones). This is the technique which allows a person to go from one place to another based on information from a map or directions from someone else. This can be anything from following a road map to an unfamiliar town to a complicated cross- country hike with many intermediate landmarks requiring compass bearings etc. This type of navigation seems less natural and usually requires more effort to learn. However it is necessary in unfamiliar territory. It can also help us more quickly form the "mental map" of the first type of navigation. In the following list I will not attempt to distinguish which techniques fit which category. Many of them fit both. The best navigators use both anyway. It is helpful to combine them, eg. use "formal" navigation to help develop a mental map and the mental map to supplement the formal techniques. 1. Simply be alert to your surroundings, especially as you travel. Most of us use a variety of clues to help know where we are. Most of these clues are visual although sounds and even smells can help. (The rotting animal carcass can provide a very memorable smell to be recognized on the way back). The person who pays attention to trees, rocks, hills, streams, etc. will have a great advantage over the guy who simply looks at the trail in front of him. Try to look at features from several different angles as you move. Try to put together in your mind how different features relate to each other and to your route. (Of course being alert to surroundings also enhances your enjoyment of the outdoors, the reason most of us are there in the first place.) 2. Try to keep track of your directions and associate them with the territory around you. For example, notice not only the odd shaped hill, but notice that it is northeast of you and runs approximately east and west. Try to be aware of the direction the trail is going. Notice that that hill is ahead of you on the trail, then off to the right a bit as the trail turns. A compass is handy to keep track of the direction the trail runs. Again you are trying to form a mental picture of the territory and how it is oriented. Some of us are better at this than others but I think we can all improve with practice. 3. Occasionally look behind you to see how the territory will look on the return trip. Be especially diligent at all junctions or anywhere else the trail is not glaringly obvious. All those odd tree branches and readily recognizable rocks will look very different from the other direction. 4. Learn to use a compass reasonably well. You may not need to take a bearing to within 2 degrees but you should be able to figure out which way is north. This means understanding declination (unless you will only be in areas where declination is less than about 5 degrees). Learn to go back the direction you came from using your compass (see "back bearing" below). 4a. If you are likely to travel after dark or in a whiteout, learn to use the compass *well*. Learn to follow a bearing, a back bearing, detour around something and get back on route, etc. Learn how accurately you can follow a bearing under different conditions and how to compensate for that inaccuracy (offset bearings, landmarks etc). If your night or whiteout travel will be in mountainous areas get an altimeter and learn to use it (and what its limitations are). All compass, altimeter, and map techniques are best learned by practice in familiar surroundings under good conditions. It's a bit late to learn when you are in a howling blizzard. 5. Use the compass *long before* you get lost, including at the trailhead and at several intermediate points. The object is to help develop a "feel" for which direction you are traveling and to learn which way you go out so you know which direction you must go to return. It does little good to know which direction is which when you are lost unless you have some idea of which way to go. (Well, let's see. North is that way, South is opposite and East is that way. But which direction is the $#^%^$@* car?) In fact it is a good idea at the trailhead to get out your map and compass and orient the map with the terrain. Put the map so that map north is true north and look around. Identify the direction you plan to travel and as many landmarks as you can. If you don't have a map, at least do this with the compass and look at terrain features, the direction the trail goes, etc. Be sure you know which direction *you* are facing when you look at landmarks. 6. Learn to recognize nature's direction indicators. For example moss does not always grow on the north side of trees but it commonly does grow on a preferred side which varies with location and depends on the prevailing winds. Be aware that these indicators may change from place to place as the prevailing winds change. This can occur in quite short distances if hills affect the wind. (Of course in places like the northwest, moss can grow on all sides of the trees. Maybe you can look for which side has the thinnest coat of moss.) Tree branches can also be affected by prevailing winds. The sun and shadows can also give indications of direction if you take time of day into account (remember to account for daylight savings time). These indicators are usually not very precise (except for the north star or astronomical readings taken with specialized equipment). However they can help you keep a general idea of which direction is which. If the moss on trees was to your left and suddenly you notice it is toward you, maybe you changed direction without noticing. Check your compass or otherwise find out what happened. 7. Unless you are certain you will *never* leave the trail, learn to use an offset bearing and linear landmarks. 8. Learn to read a map. Try to carry a good map of the area you are in. However even if you don't have a map with you the experience of knowing how to use one will help with your ability to construct your own mental map of the territory. 9. *Never* place all your trust in someone else. Spouses, "knowledgable" friends, SO's, party leaders all make mistakes. Try to keep track of where you are yourself. If you feel lost ask the leader for help or for time to orient yourself. This will promote safety on that trip and help you learn for the times you are on your own. If the leader can't or won't help don't go with him/her again (if you get back that time). Good leaders recognize that (a) they make occasional mistakes and a crosscheck is useful and (b) occasionally people get separated from the group and they better have some idea where they are. The only exception I can think of is the rare case when speed becomes important to safety (eg. you gotta' get off the mountain before the storm hits). Then the leader may be justified in asking you to just follow. (He should, however, remain open to questions while you move.) There are a couple of tricks which make use of the compass easier. I. Shooting a "back bearing." The compass is handy for going back the way you came from. To use this you need to set the "direction of travel" when you go out. (See directions which come with your compass, I won't attempt to describe it here.) The usual technique is to add or subtract 180 degrees from that bearing to find the return bearing. It works if you don't make a mistake but is unnecessarily complicated. Even the best of us can make simple arithmetic errors, especially when we're tired, cold, and in a hurry. A much simpler technique is to simply turn the compass around and pretend the south needle is the north. This always gives an exact reversal of direction. II. Offset bearings (also known as "aiming off"). It's nice to know that if you travel for 5 miles on a bearing of 213 degrees magnetic you will be back at the trailhead. The problem is that most of us are doing very well if we can stay within 3 degrees of a bearing, even worse in anything but open country. In 5 miles a 3 degree error will put you off course by a quarter of a mile! You will probably miss your target and if you come to the road you won't know which way to walk. The solution is to make a deliberate error in a known direction. Determine how accurately you can set and follow a bearing, then aim that far to a given side. Pick a linear landmark (road, stream, etc., also known as a "handrail") and when you arrive at it follow it back to a known location such as your car or a recognizable stream crossing. This is the recommended technique, for example, to get off Mt. Hood in a whiteout. In that case, people can aim to the east or west of the lift line. Then when the altimeter (or a good guess) says they are well below the top of the lift they simply turn the appropriate direction, find the lift, and walk down under it. If somebody tried this without knowing which way to the lift he could easily go the wrong direction and end up either on White River Glacier or among the cliffs of Zig-Zag Canyon, both potentially dangerous places. And one trick to make your maps easier to use: Draw north-south lines on them and declination lines (that is, lines running magnetic north-south as well as true north-south). These lines should be about an inch apart so when you place a typical compass on the map there is always a north-south line and a declination line under it. This is much easier if you have access to a drafting table. This is not intended to be a comprehensive course in cross-country navigation. It is intended to give some suggestions. You won't learn navigation by reading anyway. Practice, practice, practice. When you try something and it doesn't work, try to figure out why and what you can do better next time. Try to find someone good at navigation and spend time with him/her in the field watching, asking questions, and learning. How much of an expert you need to become will depend on what activities you engage in but be sure your skills are up to your activity. If in doubt try something easier and save that particular trip for when you have improved. Finally, be sure somebody knows where you are going, when you plan to return and who to notify if you don't come back. If all else fails and you get lost (or injured) nobody will come looking for you until the proper authority (usually the sheriff's dept.) is notified. Even when the search starts it will be much more effective if searchers know your destination, not just where you parked your car. Even if you get very good with all these techniques there is no guarantee you will not get lost. If that happens, first sit down and relax a bit. Sometimes just a pause will allow you to reorient yourself. Your mind will be much more effective if you can remain calm. Get out your compass and see which way is north. (You do have one don't you? And you did orient yourself at the trailhead, right?) If you have no compass try to find a natural direction indicator (North Star, drive a stick in the ground and see which way the shadow moves etc.). Look around for distinctive landmarks (but be careful before you decide that that hill is the same one you saw from camp. Don't let similar hills fool you.) In the best case you may discover where you are and be able to return without problems. If this doesn't work consider yourself lost and act accordingly. From tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:19 EDT 1994 Article: 251 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!Starbase.NeoSoft.COM!tapeworm From: tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com (Joe Bushong) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:53:10 GMT Organization: NeoSoft Internet Services +1 713 684 5969 Lines: 62 Message-ID: <35e086$s2j@uuneo.neosoft.com> References: <35cvt8$g50@shemesh.tis.com> <35d3ak$mcv@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: starbase.neosoft.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] *WARNING* everything that follows is just MY opinion! (And I hate having to start every sentence with "In my opinion,..." so it's implied from now on) The most important thing about a "survival knife" is having it with you in a survival situation. Period. It doesn't matter if you've got an awsome outragously expensive knife in the car, at home, whatever... If something bad happens - you need a knife immediately and have to have it on you. To me, this limits the discussion to medium sized folding knives for unplanned events. I carry a Swiss army knife 24-7 (OK...whenever I am wearing pants...). I have owned my Victornox Huntsman for many (+5 now) years. I find it to be the perfect size for keeping in my back pocket alongside my wallet. It is the perfect width to hold easily in the hand (mine at least...). The giant Swiss Army knives are MUCH to wide to be useful...and half of the junk on them is dead weight anyways. The Huntsman has the perfect selection of tools. The saw is excelent (cross cut?)and will cut down a 3-4 inch tree. I bought the Boy Scout version (heh...I was a Boy Scout at the time...never knock an organization that teaches honor as a virture) and feel that ALL Swiss Army Knives should have a Philips-head screwdriver in place of the corkscrew. The Swiss might carry bottles of wine with them for all I know but in the "real world", the corkscrew is pretty much useless. Both the large and the small blades can be made extremely sharp (I use a Lansky sharpening kit with a diamond Fine hone as my final step). All in all, the perfect knife. Very moderately priced at $30 or so. Also makes a great gift (trust me...they will love you for it...) The Leatherman tools are very nice but are more of "a pair of pliers with a knife on them" than the other way around. In my day-to-day life, I just don't seem to need a pair of needle nosed pliers all that frequently, and when I do, I bring a pair along. I know people who swear that the Leatherman tool is the greatest invention since fire, and if it works for them...who am I to argue. I would also consider the Spyderco Clipits series as great carry knives. They can be opened with one hand (with practice this becomes automatic). They come in a variety of sizes (go with the Zytel plastic handled ones, the stainless ones are heavy and expensive). My only reservation is not being able to sharpen the serrated versions but I have had friends tell me that the special SpyderEdge pattern never seems to get dull. And did I mention the full range of handle colors...All in all, probably a much better "knife" than my Swiss, but definitely not a better "tool". I also own a Cold Steel SRK sheath knife which I would carry if there wasn't a stigma against large, openly carried, sheath knives. The SRK is an excelent knife and will do everything that an expensive hand-made knife will do. Cost me $50, which is an tremendous value/cost ratio. K-Bars are the same way and they are available everywhere. I just can't see putting any hard use on a knife that I couldn't afford to replace ,and if you own a "work knife" what's the point of you having the "good knife"? The Carbon-V steel will rust in the places you scratch off the black coating. The handle on the SRK (and all Cold Steel knives) is perfect. They have knife ergonomics down pat. It feels exactly right. If it ever came down to a "me and one item" senario, my SRK is what I would bring. I don't think there can be any higher praise than that. If you are interested in the best prices for knives, email me. I have a couple of knife catalogs. Tapeworm From pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:19 EDT 1994 Article: 252 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!pyotr From: pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: PRIORITIES...PRIORITIES Date: 17 Sep 1994 04:56:09 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <35dst9$8d9@news.halcyon.com> References: <35a1pm$dhl@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes: >OKAY!...Now we are cooking on all burners... >... Add "COMMUNICATIONS" to the list.............BUT... >...Where to draw the line?... Given my druthers ... I'll take a fully stocked missle sub (just replace the missles with "useful" items), with a fresh charge in the reactor. Take it to 'sea' or bury it on the farm, attach utilities, and we are set. Power, lights, communications doors that close, a full kitchen, hot showers, plumbing, the complete library, etc, etc. Fully self contained, I can seal me and mine off from the outside contamination (plague, fallout, flood, storm, vinyl siding salemen.). Of course there are a few drawbacks - like getting one in working order. Details. That's the idea, but as the discussion went some years ago, just my luck, I'm across town buying the last roll of TP when the balloon goes up, and theres my wonder shelter unaccessable. Selah. Other things to keep in mind - fiscal realities preclude me from doing more than think about it. My resources are at their limits dealing with the here and now (One good thing about the collapse of Civilization: there goes my debt load.) Anyway -earthquake is the concern for me (Nothing like having a geologist for a good friend) Seattle is due for The Big One(tm) Real Soon Now. Any sugestions for some one living on the second floor in the U-district? chus pyotr -- pyotr@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl. God is my co-pilot. But the Devil's my bombadier, and I don't know who the Tail Gunner is! Bring back the Ghengis Khan World Tour! From alb0@roger.gte.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:20 EDT 1994 Article: 253 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!ceylon!roger.gte.com!alb0 From: alb0@roger.gte.com (Andrew Betz) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:28:10 GMT Organization: Idaho City University Lines: 35 Message-ID: <35cv4q$5us@ceylon.gte.com> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.135348.9363@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: roger.gte.com In article <1994Sep16.135348.9363@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, Bill VanRemmen wrote: >If you want a SECURE communications network, encryption is essential, but >encryption is illegal on the Ham Bands. Or if you're into real security, you'd encrypt using a well-designed one-time pad and then transmit spread-spectrum. Clipper my *ss! :-) The other advantage is that detecting spread spectrum is pretty hard...interestingly, spread spectrum is legal in the amatuer bands. >What about a system that would allow a user to enter a message on his PC, >encrypt it, and send it to a distant station using a network of CB's set up as >digipeaters? Technically, this is possible with existing equipment. It would be a lot easier to modulate an FM signal as opposed to an AM, for all of the reasons that FM is used now (e.g., better signal against static and the like). I think F3E emmissions are prohibited in the CB bands. >It might be illegal, though to send digital signals on the Citizen's Band. >Anyone got a copy of the FCC regs for this band? As usual, I tried to connive a solution...how about getting a board that automatically sends/receives morse from a computer file? Thus, you take a file, PGP it, send it to your morse board, it gets send out as a PGP message in morse (thus passing the emission as an A1 or J1), and the signal is detected on the other end. Ugly and inefficient, but it might work... Drew -- alb0@gte.com "The new Gestapo in America." -- Gerry Spence on the BATF From 72714.3044@CompuServe.COM Sat Sep 17 11:21:21 EDT 1994 Article: 254 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!george.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!compuserve.com!news From: J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: 17 Sep 1994 06:15:27 GMT Organization: via CompuServe Information Service Lines: 10 Message-ID: <35e1hv$ijl$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com> References: <1994Sep17.031154.26790@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> > felt tip permanent marker (...I will mark the casualty's > forhead with a 'T'...) What does this mean... a "T"? -- : ''' : (o o) : +-----oOOO--(_)---OOOo-----+ Those that beat guns into plows will plow for those that don't. From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:21 EDT 1994 Article: 255 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <35ckdh$k97@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:34:01 GMT Lines: 28 The best all purpose "knife" I ever had was the Leatherman tool. This had a 3" knife (good for many camping chores, but not all), a can opener, phillips screwdriver and two flat head screwdrivers, a file and a few other attachments. The whole thing unfolds into a pair of pliers/ wire cutters, and on the spine is a ruler that (while being a bit hard to read in certain light conditions) had both inches and centimeters. It was the most useful tool I ever had and I always had it with me. But I was working on my car in the twilight one evening, and I didn't notice it sitting on the bumper in the low light as I cleaned up my other tools. Either someone took it that night or the next morning, or it fell off the bumper the next time I drove the car! Bummer. To replace it, some friends bought me a similiar "multi-tool" from SOG. What appealed to me about this tool was that the pliers didn't have the edges facing my palms like the leatherman tool did. The leatherman tool can really leave some deep red marks on your palms when you use those pliers! But once I actually tried using the SOG tool, I realized what a pain in the butt it is to unfold and use. I don't like the SOG tool. Gerber also has one, with spring loaded pliers. It also looks like a hassle to operate. Stick with the leatherman tool, I swear by 'em. Life- time guarantee too! And they can be had for a little as $35. I'm gonna have to pick another one up somewhere. If you wear it on your belt, you'll be amazed how often you use it. Just keep a rag handy to wrap around the handles when you need the pliers! rdh From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:22 EDT 1994 Article: 256 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:38:44 GMT Lines: 7 As an EMT, you must have a good idea of what exactly should go into such a kit. Would you please share the contents of your homemade kit with us, Mr. Kovar? Thanks! rdh From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:23 EDT 1994 Article: 257 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!nntpa!bigtop!arriva!rdh From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Hanging Out in Utah's Deserts Message-ID: Sender: rdh@arriva (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Organization: AT&T References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.055132.13720@ultb.isc.rit.edu> <35co1q$r3a@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:47:50 GMT Lines: 108 In article <35co1q$r3a@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) writes: |> In article <1994Sep16.055132.13720@ultb.isc.rit.edu> lso8219@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes: |> >Does 4 1/2 months hiking around the Utah desert count. I was in a survival |> >program out there. |> |> Cool. What did you learn? I too am very interested in this. The message I sent on rec.travel which I have reproduced below led to some suggestions, including to get a map which shows what land belongs to BLM, and camp on that for free. That is my current plan. What's the scoop on carrying/shooting a .22 rifle on BLM or Nat'l/State Forest land? Where in Utah would you recommend I go, lso8219? Article: 51775 of rec.travel From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) Subject: Stop the Merry-Go-Round, I Want to Get Off Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:18:55 GMT Hello! I am planning to quit my job, get rid of my furniture, throw my cats in the truck and hit the road. I have a small truck with an aluminum topper. There are crank-open style windows on the sides, with nylon mosquito netting. I bought a 4" thick piece of foam from an upholstery place that covers the whole truck bed. It is more comfortable than some actual beds I have slept on. I will probably build a false floor in the truck bed for storage purposes, and put the foam on that. I will have approximately $1000 to keep me going, after which it's back to the work-week structure thing. If I can keep my costs down below $16 a day, I can last for two months. Some of the problems I have to solve before leaving are: - bathing - laundry - cooking and food storage - organizing my equipment and developing an efficient storage plan - first aid planning - basic car repair kit - etc. etc. My original plan was to disappear into the deserts of northern Nevada and Utah with enough food, water and gasoline for a week or two at a time, for about 5 or 6 months (or until it starts to get really hot). But my truck is not a four wheel drive vehicle, and it has some engine problems. I am hesitant to trust my truck that much. If it were to break down, I would have to hike out for help, leaving my cats behind. Or if I were to become ill or injured, I'd be in a jam. Plus there is the problem of camping on other people's land--I don't want to make anyone angry. And I am not sure how to provide physical security for myself, my cats and my property out in the desert against dangerous people. It's my experience that there is usually more safety to be gotten by travelling in a group than from carrying a gun. Local people don't like to see a stranger around with a gun, especially local law enforcement. And yet, I can't think of any other way to provide security for myself travelling alone. I mean, what do I do, dig a moat around my campsite? Perhaps camoflaging the campsite. Anyone have experience here? My next thought was to go to state and national parks and camp in their camping sites. To my knowledge, this costs $4 a night and up. Figuring $6 for the site per day and $6 per day for basic-type food and water, I'll have a little left over for gasoline and other expenses. I'm taking books, maybe a small musical instrument, pens, pencil and lots of paper. Also whatever camping stuff I need. I'm planning on a week long "shakedown cruise" or two before the main thing, to debug my plan. The objective of this is for me to have time to relax, read and have lots of time to think. The nice thing about going to these campsites is that it simul- taneously solves the problems of "where's the toilet?" and the "security" problem, as well. There are usually enough people around, and often Park Rangers too. This makes me feel safer from the threat of illness and injury as well as from theives or Tough Guys. Still, it doubles my cost-of-living. I am interested in whatever information you may have to offer. Should I bring a firearm? I am inclined not to. Do you know of places out west where I can camp for free? Will my cats be welcome? If you have experience with this sort of lifestyle, what worked for you? Do you have any tips or warnings? I prefer to find a spot and stay at least a few days, up to maybe two weeks or so. I do not want to spend hours and gas money every day driving from campsite to campsite. Even driving every third or fourth day would be OK, but not everyday. I am willing to pay up to about $8 per night for a campsite, but if I can eliminate this cost, I can stay out much longer. I am interested in whatever ideas you might have. Someone suggested to me to look into the "rainbow people", a group of nomadic hippie type people. Although I doubt that I am much ideologically aligned with the "rainbow people", I have nothing against them. But the idea of living in a pastoral environment WITH some social support structure (toilet facilities, people who can get me to the hospital if I break my leg or get bit by a snake or something, etc.) is admittedly appealing. Thank you for your time and I look forwared to your messages. I would prefer you reply here in the newsgroup, but if you are not comfortable doing that, I can be reached at this email address: rdh@drmail.dr.att.com Regards, Robert Holder Denver Colorado From sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Sat Sep 17 11:21:24 EDT 1994 Article: 258 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!sybok From: sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:44:55 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 11 Message-ID: <35d047$sg@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> References: <35b5oe$3sb$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com> <35c8dp$h6n@blkbox.blkbox.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: m1-142-13.mit.edu In article <35c8dp$h6n@blkbox.blkbox.COM> guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) writes: #Security? There is none. Part 97 of the FCC rules do not allow the use of #"codes or cyphers" on amateur radio. (Morse is a language not a code #supposedly.) That means no PGP, No one time pads. (Grupo, Grupo, Uno, #Uno, Tres...). No talk around codes ("THe chair is against the wall. John #has a red hat.") I'm sure that during a collapse of civil power, when you're holed up in your mountain cabin, you're going to worry about an FCC van pulling up and charging you with transmitting in code. From hollombe@polymath.tti.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:24 EDT 1994 Article: 259 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ttinews!polymath!hollombe From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) Subject: Re: Various Message-ID: <1994Sep16.203823.19420@ttinews.tti.com> Sender: usenet@ttinews.tti.com (Usenet Admin) Nntp-Posting-Host: polymath.tti.com Organization: The Cat Factory References: <35adub$1e2@news.service.uci.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 20:38:23 GMT Lines: 35 In article rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) writes: }I still maintain, thought, that during a temporary thing like }a hurricane, earthquake, or localized riot, the net would be }very useful, and it might serve us to examine where it would }be useful and where it would be a waste of time. These are highly localized events. Things may be bad for a week or so, but help starts pouring in almost immediately. I was living at ground zero of the January earthquake (still am). The only thing the internet was good for, when I finally got to it, was reassuring people not in the area that things in general weren't nearly as bad as the popular media tried to make them look. There was, in fact, very little looting -- mostly random crimes of opportunity, like grabs from smashed shop windows. The real crimes IMHO were things like "convenience" store owners gouging $10/gallon for bottled water. I got by for most of a week on canned food and bottled water (distilled at home). Would have done a little better if the drain valve on my water heater hadn't jammed (could have flushed the toilets, at least). Water trucks were on scene within 24 hours. Emergency shelters were set up within 48. Throughout the entire emergency I never heard a gunshot nor saw a police car. (I was glad I and friends in the area had guns, but much more glad we didn't need them). The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com) Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp "Learning about the U.S. from the popular 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. media is like learning about plumbing by Santa Monica, CA 90405 sitting in a cesspool." -- Michael Phelps From locasso@tis.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:25 EDT 1994 Article: 260 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shemesh.tis.com!news From: locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:41:12 GMT Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc. Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35cvt8$g50@shemesh.tis.com> References: Reply-To: locasso@tis.com NNTP-Posting-Host: oregano.ba.tis.com In article Lq2@netcom.com, pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) writes: > I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can > anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, > hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. The USMC Ka-Bar is a good solid knife and commonly available. Lately, I've seen them at gun shows for $30; my local Army Surplus sells them for $44. Rosaria Locasso From waddell@firnvx.firn.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:26 EDT 1994 Article: 261 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!mailer.acns.fsu.edu!news From: waddell@firnvx.firn.edu (Kathy Waddell) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Ratings system... Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:54:07 GMT Organization: Florida Info Resource Network Lines: 41 Message-ID: <35d0lf$s5i@mailer.fsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kathy.firn.edu X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.5 In article <35cs1n$g50@shemesh.tis.com>, locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) says: > >In article nh8@news.acns.nwu.edu, abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) writes: >> A couple posts have stressed the need for PRIORITIES: what's more important, a >> gun or a can opener, a radio or surplus blankets. >> I propose a ratings system for use within the group, something which could >> allow someone to post: "I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo >> should be a category 2 item." and everyone could tell what they were saying, >> rather than having to describe the conditions under which items would be >> necessary. I'm thinking of something like >> >> Rating Description >> >> 1 Absolutely Necessary >> 2 Necessary >> 3 Important >> 4 Useful >> 5 Luxury >> 6 Stupid >> 7 Dangerous ... >Not flaming you, but I bet we would spend years trying to clarify the >difference between Important and Useful, trying to agree on where the line >is drawn between Absolute Necessary and Necessary. We'd have to start a >new newsgroup just to talk about this! :-) Why not just let the writer say >"I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo are necessary"? I agree, one person's 2 could be another person's 7. I don't think there is any way to come up with concensus judgements on what is necessary and what is stupid. Let each person decide for themselves based on available info. I think the FAQ(s) especially should not contain personal comment or judgements but only contain information, leaving personal opinion to be expressed in articles. --- Have fun! =-Kathy-> waddell@firnvx.firn.edu From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:21:26 EDT 1994 Article: 262 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!convex!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!male.EBay.Sun.COM!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: 16 Sep 1994 20:30:35 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 101 Message-ID: <35cv9b$ldr@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article 1609941116000001@144.52.104.196, kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) writes: + + I used to be an EMT and put together my own jump kit. It has everything +that I generally need while in my car, but I'd like to find something +better for long term survival. + + Can anyone recommend a commerical first aid kit designed for long term +survival that is well thought out and well put together? One reason I want +something commerical is that they are generally packaged better than anything +I can do myself. I have bought all the correct pieces myself, but I end up +with a lot left over, and it is not as neatly packaged as I would like. The best ones around are made by the Adventure Medical Kit company in Oakland, CA. More and more outdoor stores are carrying these. REI already carries them. They come in distinctive blue carrying cases, and in sizes from very small, to a car kit. There are special kits (and refills) oriented towards wound cleaning & dressing, oral rehydration kits, hypo/hyper-thermia kits, etc. The company is owned by Dr. Weiss, who I posted earlier info from about water treatment. Based on my not-small knowledge of first aid, Dr. Weiss knows whence he speaks. His company also sells a $4.95 booklet on first aid which is the best for its' scope I've seen. I've built my own kit. I have a duplicate kit in my car, motorcycle, and daypack, and I carry an additional non-duplicated kit which has specialized things like meds and sutures (although the longer I have them, the less I plan on ever using sutures). My carry kit: * bag of 3" x 3" gauze pads, roller bandages, and telfa pads. * betadine prep pads (also useful for purifying water for wound irrigation) * 1 compressed trauma dressing * disposable space blanket * insta-glucose paste (for hypothermia treatment) * pocket CPR microshield * condoms (for a variety of uses) * crazy glue, steri strips, tincture of benzoin swaps (for closing wounds w/out using sutures; no, I don't use the crazy glue to glue wounds shut) * syringe & cannula for cleaning wounds w/ water stream. * knuckle bandaids, alcohol swabs (primarily for use when I need a solvent, not for use as disenfectant), rubber gloves, safety pins. The above all fits in an REI pouch about 5" x 7" x 4". In a second pouch, a US military 30 round M16 magazine pouch, I have a rolled up ACE bandage, cortisone cream, NeoSporin Plus, dibucaine ointment (anesthetic), wide range thermometer, EpiPen, and (this is most cool) a small fishing lure box with lots of little compartments -- each compartment has a small ziplock bag full of useful over the counter medications such as Aspirin, Benedryl, etc. Both pouches together can be carried on my belt if need be, and allow me to treat most problems I'm going to encounter. I also have a Laerdal CPR pocket mask in my backpack because it's easier to use than the pocket microshields. I also have a pair of EMT trauma sheers which rattle arond in my pack, and a pen & pad of paper. I have other stuff at home which I don't carry, such as lots more dressings, meds, plus stethescope & BP cuff, but those aren't needed for most things I'm likely to have to do. What good is having a pile of stuff if none of it is around when you need it because it's too heavy? Of course, all the stuff above isn't useful w/out training, and continued practice. I get my training by helping instruct a Wilderness Medicine Course in the San Jose, CA area once or twice a year, and working at volunteer medical events. For those interested, another one is coming up next month, October 8th & 9th. It's conducted by Earthbound Medical Rescue, costs $150, and it's a very good class. The contacts for it are: Earthbound Medical Rescue 390 N. 12th st., San Jose, CA 95112, phone: 408/275-9542. Finally, in keeping with the philosophy of not becoming a second victim, my Tetanus booster is up to date, and I'm immunized against Hepatitis B. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:27 EDT 1994 Article: 263 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:03:50 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 62 Message-ID: <35d17m$4nh@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> <35cr6i$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article <35cr6i$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com>, Chris BeHanna wrote: >In article <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> bucket O brains (bw004b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu) wrote: >:>I personaly like the M-16. What more could you ask for? I mean apart from >:>the necesity of keeping it very clean. It's light, very accurate, more >:>powerfull than you will ever need, and has excelent range. I can't see >:>needing more than 550m of pin point accuracy, and 800m of area target >:>accuracy. As for the ammo, 5.56 should not be that hard to find after a >:>revolution because of vast amount that the goverment has sould not be hard to >:>get a hold of. O well it's too bad I can't get one for my self. Pitty > > Col. Cooper holds the M-16 in contempt and recommends the M-1 in its >place. > > Can't get that either, EXCEPT that you can buy it used from someone >who legally owned it before Tuesday, as transfers of grandfathered weapons are >also grandfathered. > > Good luck trying to find someone to give theirs up, though. > > Tip: someone said you could reload using white-tipped matches for >primers. Anyone have any info on this? It would seem to be survival-relevant. > Excuse me? I beg your pardon. I agree with Col. Cooper in that the M-16 is not my ideal military rifle. Underpowered (I tend to feel a bit more secure with a rifle whose effective range is greater then 1 city block), innaccurate at ranges beyond 150 yards or so, and simply not good enough to take big game reliably either. But if you don't know how to shoot and you want to look cool, by all means go for the M-16/AR-15... :) But how do you come to the conclusion that the M1 is banned? It's not. You might be thinking of the M1A/M14. That's diferent from the M1. While both rifles are similar (I would take the M14 and then the M1, in order of preference) only the M1A is now banned from manufacture unless Springfield modifies it and sells it with a 10 round mag instead of the normal 20. M14/M1A Caliber: 7.62 NATO Operation: Air-cooled, gas-operated semi-automatic rifle Weight: 9.1 lbs Length: 44.3" Barrel length: 22" Capacity: 20-round magazine (although I have a few 30s) M1 "Garand" Caliber: .30-06 Operation: Air-cooled, gas-operated semi-automatic rifle Weight: 11.25 lbs. (approx) Length: 43" Barrel length: 23" Capacity: 8-round enbloc clip ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:28 EDT 1994 Article: 264 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!abrez From: abrez@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Aaron Brezenski) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Ratings system... Date: 16 Sep 1994 21:13:37 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston IL Lines: 50 Message-ID: <35d1q1$kfo@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <35d0lf$s5i@mailer.fsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu In article <35d0lf$s5i@mailer.fsu.edu>, Kathy Waddell wrote: >In article <35cs1n$g50@shemesh.tis.com>, locasso@tis.com > (Rosaria Locasso) says: >... >>Not flaming you, but I bet we would spend years trying to clarify the >>difference between Important and Useful, trying to agree on where the line >>is drawn between Absolute Necessary and Necessary. We'd have to start a >>new newsgroup just to talk about this! :-) Why not just let the writer say >>"I think, in an urban survival situation, guns and ammo are necessary"? > >I agree, one person's 2 could be another person's 7. I don't think >there is any way to come up with concensus judgements on what is >necessary and what is stupid. Let each person decide for themselves >based on available info. I think the FAQ(s) especially should not >contain personal comment or judgements but only contain information, >leaving personal opinion to be expressed in articles. > >--- >Have fun! > > =-Kathy-> waddell@firnvx.firn.edu > I didn't mean to imply an "official" system for use in the FAQ. That would indeed be foolish, as everyone has differing opinions. However, in discussing these opinions, it might be useful to be able to type: Urban Survival: Canned goods: 1 Can opener:1 Guns: 2 Ammo:2 Mattress:4 Sign outside your place advertising food:7 etc. i.e., have a master list of items, and allow each individual to append a rating to each item. Sorry, I guess I'm into codification... Aaron Brezenski "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there's not someone out to get me." Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati "If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science. It is opinion." "... what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" From kovar@nda.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:29 EDT 1994 Article: 265 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!trib.apple.com!amd!news.kgc.com!kpc!NewsWatcher!user From: kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:52:17 -0800 Organization: Net Daemons Associates, Inc. Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.52.104.196 In article , rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300) wrote: > As an EMT, you must have a good idea of what exactly should > go into such a kit. Would you please share the contents of > your homemade kit with us, Mr. Kovar? Being an EMT doesn't give me a good idea of what should be in there, unfortunately. I'd love to take a wilderness EMT course, and then I'd have a better idea. EMTs, *in general*, must stabilize a patient and get them to the hospital as fast as possible. You stock up with tools, and training, for stabilization - splits, bandages, MAST trousers, O2, breath masks, and the like. If you want to practice wilderness medicine, or medicine for survival situations, you have to be thinking about long term care and treatment, not just stabilization. MAST trousers (inflatable trousers for treating shock, essentially) are less usefull when you're 4 days away from medical care. Your best option is to find a wilderness medical course. Ski patrols teach a very good one. One is being taught in San Jose on Oct 8th and 9th, I think. There are others around. The *training* is the important part. Without that, the best first aid kit is pretty much useless. A book on wilderness first aid would also provide a good list of what you'd want to carry. *Completely* off the top of my head, I'd want to have: Bandaging materials * Sterile gauze, bandages, and tape * Trauma pads Splint materials * Splint boards. * Folding splint, perhaps * Several slings. (Good for splints, slings, dressings, pads, etc.) Tools * Rescue shears * Scalpel * Flashlight * Pen * Notepad * Stethescope * BP cuff * Breath mask Fluids * Alcohol * Sterile water * Betadine That's what is in my current kit. I don't carry any medicines as it is illegal for me to dispense them. Oxygen falls under the same category. For survival issues, with no regards to legal issues, I'd probably add: * Painkillers * Muscle relaxants * Various other over the counter medicines * O2 * A lot more of everything in the standard kit * A library of books. Wilderness medicine, herbal remedies, etc, etc *Please* do not take this as an exhaustive list. Please *do* read up on it yourself, get the required training, and know how to use it. -David From hollombe@polymath.tti.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:30 EDT 1994 Article: 266 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ttinews!polymath!hollombe From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Message-ID: <1994Sep16.232817.23263@ttinews.tti.com> Sender: usenet@ttinews.tti.com (Usenet Admin) Nntp-Posting-Host: polymath.tti.com Organization: The Cat Factory References: <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> <35akjg$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 23:28:17 GMT Lines: 22 In article <35akjg$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> gbrennan@umich.edu (Gerald Brennan) writes: }George Guillory (guillory@blkbox.com) wrote: }: Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that }: the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms }: (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. } }But that's crazy. As unpleasant and _presumably_ irrelevant as these }topics may be to some, they are indeed part of the picture, and should }not be ignored. Those who don't wish to participate in those threads, if }they develop, need not do so. The gun forums are not designed }_specifically_ for the survivalist point-of-view. May I suggest that firearms discussions, if any, be confined strictly to discussions of the technology as it applies to survivalism with political ranting relegated to t.p.g? There _are_ gun folk here and the subject _will_ come up. We can only hope to follow the example of rec.guns -- the kinder, gentler firearms group. The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com) Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp "Learning about the U.S. from the popular 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. media is like learning about plumbing by Santa Monica, CA 90405 sitting in a cesspool." -- Michael Phelps From pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:31 EDT 1994 Article: 267 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!pyotr From: pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Jeffersons gun Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:12:34 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <35dts2$8ri@news.halcyon.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com hernler@hspt.tu-graz.ac.at (hannes g. hernler) writes: >> lot of stuff deleted........ >>+ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest + >>+ reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as + >>+ a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. + >>+ - Thomas Jefferson, proposed Virginia constitution, June 1776. + >>+ 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950) + >I think, Thomas Jefferson was right then, in 1776! >But had the government tanks, planes, H-bombs, FBI and some millions of >soldiers then? >And when tyranny is now (and better than ever) with TV, free highways, a car >for everybody, McBurgers and "free choice" (as long as you can buy it and have >enough money so that you do all to get that money) ? >What sence makes a gun then? Good question. But as an acquantance once remarked - "Zip guns are the first step in getting the keys to the Tanks" (Zip guns are what street gangs used in the old days - a piece of pipe with a handle and some way of hitting the old fireing pin on demand. Not very accurate, but not meant for more than point blank use. Also not very safe, due to 'inexperienced gunsmiths'.) I hear all these arguements about the Modern Weapons of the National Government and remember the hungarians were stopping tanks in Budapest with soup plates. From inside a tank, a soup plate looks a lot like an Teller mine. Weapons of war are only going to work if the government is willing to flatten large parts of the city ... its called "Swatting flys with the sledgehammer". Works, but the 'collateral damage' may not be acceptable. chus pyotr not directly survival related, but "heads up" is half of it. -- pyotr@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl. God is my co-pilot. But the Devil's my bombadier, and I don't know who the Tail Gunner is! Bring back the Ghengis Khan World Tour! From pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:32 EDT 1994 Article: 268 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!chinook!pyotr From: pyotr@chinook.halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Map & Compass Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:17:48 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <35du5s$90v@news.halcyon.com> References: <35c8fj$4dn@pegasus.rutgers.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chinook.halcyon.com Keywords: Magnetic Poles Orienteering rreyes@pegasus.rutgers.edu (the little thing inside) writes: >Hello everyone: > My question is : > How can one find his/her way around the magnetic pole regions? Very carefully. The 'low tech' way is to learn celestial navigation, either of the stars at night, or from the location of the sun. (If you can't get a sun/star sighting, stay put.) actually - there is a trick with polarized filters that will point you to the sun, but I can't recall it now. Old trick, the Norsk were using it a thousand years ago. Otherwise, learn your landmarks, mark your trail (carns of stones on a tundra will show you where you were comeing from.). > Is it possible without the aid of Loran type aids? > Any assistance is appreciated, esp. since I have no answer to it. Check your Boy Scout manual on navagation, there is a trick using your watch as a sundial/compass, but it only works with analoges. :-) chus pyotr -- pyotr@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl. God is my co-pilot. But the Devil's my bombadier, and I don't know who the Tail Gunner is! Bring back the Ghengis Khan World Tour! From degroff@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:32 EDT 1994 Article: 270 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!overload.lbl.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uop!csus.edu!netcom.com!degroff From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d) Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Message-ID: Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 06:46:34 GMT Lines: 24 In article <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu (Aaron Dial) writes: >If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, >and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most >versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought >this would be an interesting topic of conversation. > >Aaron, Delaware, far, far away from the Pacific Northwest > >-- >******************************************************** >*** *** > *** AARON DIAL is bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu *** >*** *** >******************************************************** > If your going forever and ever, you might wish to forgo the firearm in favor of bow, blow gun or some other construction tools. Long duration, IMO, go with .22...you can afford and carry 1000 rounds (two "bricks" about 30 dollars) while with any heavier round you will be spending lots more (7 or 8 dollars per 20 rd) and much heavier. From bjacoby@infinet.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:33 EDT 1994 Article: 271 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!bjacoby From: bjacoby@infinet.com (Ben Jacoby) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 17 Sep 1994 07:13:39 GMT Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410) Lines: 29 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35e4v3$peu@rigel.infinet.com> References: <359r1t$1jv@rigel.infinet.com> <35a14d$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> <35co31$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Chris BeHanna (behanna@syl.nj.nec.com) wrote: : In article <35a14d$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Rosaria Locasso (locasso@tis.com) wrote: : :>In article 1jv@rigel.infinet.com, lovecraf@infinet.com (Ed Michalski) writes: : :>> : :>> There are certain gas additives which can prolong the life of stored : :>> gasoline far greater than our lifetimes. : :>> : :>Ed, : :>Can you tell us what these additives are? Are they easily available? : :>Expensive? Where can we get them? : Sta-Bil is the best. It's cheap. Get it at the auto parts store. I got some Champion (spark plug people) Marine fuel stabilizer at a sale and put some in my lawn mower can. *many* years later it is still fine. This stuff costs more but seems to work very well. The idea is supposed to be to put it in you outboard motor can which may sit around until you want to use the boat. I also heard (but never tried) that grease extender works great too and is dirt cheap. It's what they use in resaurants in the deep-fry machine to keep the grease from turning rancid. It's susposed to be very similar in chemical composition to *real* fuel stabilizers. -- Benjamin Jacoby | "Some rob you with a six-gun and some with bjacoby@infinet.com | a fountain pen." ..........Woodie Guthrie From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:21:34 EDT 1994 Article: 272 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 16 Sep 1994 22:54:18 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 34 Message-ID: <35d7mq$mt2@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: <35d35s$g50@shemesh.tis.com> Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article g50@shemesh.tis.com, locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) writes: +In article HI@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu, algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (the virtual valkyrie) writes: +> +> I know about herbal medicine +> and edible wild plants... + +How in the world did you ever learn about edible plants? When I first took +up backpacking, I tried to learn what I could safely eat. I bought and read +several books and searched for better books. Inevitably, these books would +have pencil drawings of plants, and crude drawings at that. There was no way +I could identify a plant from the pictures and descriptions. Oh, maybe I +could guess, but no way did I want to eat the thing and find out for sure! I know how you feel. I do better IDing plants, now that I grow house plants on my own and have learned how to propagate them. Being more comfortable with plants, I feel more comfortable matching live plants with drawings. Of course the better way is to have someone explain it to you first hand. Still a third way is to start small: learn how to consistently ID and use a few local plants. Go to a local nature store, or club, or group, and see if they have a plant guide to your local area. This scopes it down and gives you a chance at matching things. --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From dclauswa.gas.uug.arizona.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:35 EDT 1994 Article: 273 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!news.Cerritos.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!usenet From: dclauswa.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Deb) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Book recommendations Date: 17 Sep 1994 00:18:25 GMT Organization: University of Arizona, CCIT Lines: 10 Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[8474] Message-ID: <35dckh$ebh@news.CCIT.Arizona.EDU> References: <358hd4$mkq@hobbes.cc.uga.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hall-lab.biosci.arizona.edu X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0.1b11@hall-lab.biosci.arizona.edu Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name. > > > ___________ > / \ "Send Lawyers, Guns, and lots of Money ... > | R. I. P. | the shit has hit the fan." - Dennis Leary > | | Couldn't resist, but wasn't that a quote taken from a Warren Zevon song? From jdc@taligent.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:35 EDT 1994 Article: 274 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!ames!taligent!dave-croyle.taligent.com!user From: jdc@taligent.com (The Kurgan) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Sender: usenet@taligent.com (More Bytes Than You Can Read) Organization: Banzai Institute References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 21:18:24 GMT Lines: 13 In article <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu>, ahern@obelisk.berkeley.edu (Shane Patrick Ahern) wrote: > Are there any plans by survivalists to utilize the net for communications > in the event of a disaster, as was the original intent of the net as > constructed by the military to survive nuclear attack? No specific plans but the seismologists there at UCB communicated with their counterparts in the LA area over the internet during the last LA quake when most telephones down there were out/busy, so it seems to be a useful tool for such. Potential resources should never be overlooked. Dave From bjacoby@infinet.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:36 EDT 1994 Article: 275 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!bjacoby From: bjacoby@infinet.com (Ben Jacoby) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 17 Sep 1994 07:32:50 GMT Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410) Lines: 38 Message-ID: <35e632$peu@rigel.infinet.com> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] STEPHENSON (dstephen@s-cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote: : These kinds of things and this group made me think: : Does Suvivalism include the stockpiling of weapons : of some sort? : I mean, obviously, if you and some other folks have : food and other gear stuffed away for a rainy day and : that day comes, would others maybe try to take the things : you have stocked? Would being well armed be a part of the : survivalist groups plan? It would seem like it to me. : Dave : -- The answer, of course, is Yes. "Stockpiling" guns and ammo, on the other hand is another matter. The idea is that if you have prepared like the ant there will be armed grasshoppers who will attempt to survive on *your* forethought. However, I have heard of a guy who "stockpiled" Colt .45 pistols to be used in the future as barter. He supposedly had a 50 gallon drum filled with them, covered with oil. But that is a different concept. The absolute best discussion I have seen on this matter will be found in the book "Life after Doomsday" by Bruce D. Clayton Ph.D. A lot of it is about nukes, but the chapter on guns answers all your questions. He recommends you have 1. Light assault rifle (in .223) 2. Heavy assault rifle (in .308) 3. 12 Ga. Shotgun 4. Handgun (.45 ACP) Plus a few hundred rounds of ammo for the above. The book explains it all. Also remember that the person who stockpiles guns and ammo *and NO FOOD* is making a very clear statement about how they are planning to survive! ps. remember being prepared to defend your stores is not just *owning* firearms but also being practiced and skilled in their use. -- Benjamin Jacoby | "Some rob you with a six-gun and some with bjacoby@infinet.com | a fountain pen." ..........Woodie Guthrie From ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:37 EDT 1994 Article: 276 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!tusk.lm.com!not-for-mail From: ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: books and where to find them Date: 17 Sep 1994 01:12:05 -0400 Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 18 Message-ID: <35dtr5$6ju@tusk.lm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tusk.lm.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] if you are looking for books on survival. go to your local library. if you are looking for books for archiving. go to your local army navy store. they have field manuals for survival. they have books on emergency surgery,to boobytraps,concelment to fighting. just about anything you might need. there are surplus stores that sell books and supplies. one that i use is MAJOR SURPLUS AND SURVIVAL (800)441-8855. YOU DON'T NEED TO BYE MRE'S you can dry your own or find a lot (cheap) at the grocery store,like tuna fish,corned beef hash,ect... when i get mr londons ftp address and a place to put my files. i will upload all of my lists and files. -- kevin gaudi ka3ffy@telerama.lm.com From bjacoby@infinet.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:38 EDT 1994 Article: 277 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!bjacoby From: bjacoby@infinet.com (Ben Jacoby) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: RACE AND RELIGION Date: 17 Sep 1994 07:40:11 GMT Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410) Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35e6gr$peu@rigel.infinet.com> References: <35a2md$e8g@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Frank Langham (Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com) wrote: : DO NOT...REPEAT...DO *NOT* GET STARTED ON THIS *HERE* !!!!! : ...TAKE YOUR DRIVEL SOMEWHERE ELSE! : =Frank= Why, what ever do you mean???? Don't you know that Mormon stores have some of the most nifty survival stocks you will find anywhere? Only, I haven't seen many around Ohio.... -- Benjamin Jacoby | "Some rob you with a six-gun and some with bjacoby@infinet.com | a fountain pen." ..........Woodie Guthrie From bjacoby@infinet.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:38 EDT 1994 Article: 279 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!bjacoby From: bjacoby@infinet.com (Ben Jacoby) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 17 Sep 1994 08:03:46 GMT Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410) Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35e7t2$peu@rigel.infinet.com> References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a6o3$4bl@newkodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Carl T. Donath (ctdonath@mothra.syr.EDU) wrote: : In article <35a6o3$4bl@newkodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> mark@newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM (KP) writes: : I have : never fired when using the viewer, but I was interested in trying it : in as many ways as possible. : Know how night-vision behaves with bright lights _before_ you try it : while shooting. Remember, the end of a gun creates a _bright_ flash - : make sure the 'scope won't magnify it by 30,000 times (not good for : the eyes). Fortunately, some handle this. : -- sorry, but the light does NOT come out like a laser beam from a bright flash. What *does* happen is that tube draws too much current and unless the power supply was designed to limit properly, it can burn out your tube. This is why night vision designed for firearms are often different (and cost more) than just plain old viewers. By the same token, accidentally turning on you viewer during the day can have the same damaging effect. -- Benjamin Jacoby | "Some rob you with a six-gun and some with bjacoby@infinet.com | a fountain pen." ..........Woodie Guthrie From shootist@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:39 EDT 1994 Article: 280 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!shootist From: shootist@netcom.com (Shootist) Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> <35a3ca$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 07:58:13 GMT Lines: 11 131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 (rdh@arriva.dr.att.com) wrote: : The number one cause of sickness from unsterilized water is : from a bacteria called (I think) giardia . This : bacteria makes you sick as a dog, but I don't think it's fatal. : Robert Holder In the above posts, re: purifying water through boiling and iodine were mentioned. One of the best ways to make water potable is to add one tablespoon of Clorox per gallon of water. Better tasting than boiling and cheaper than iodine. From zkessin@cs.brandeis.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:40 EDT 1994 Article: 281 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!zkessin From: zkessin@cs.brandeis.edu (Zach) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: What I would want with me Date: 17 Sep 1994 02:21:56 GMT Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept. Lines: 32 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35djs4$1ve@news.cs.brandeis.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: june.cs.brandeis.edu Random thoughts on what I would want to have with me if civ died: A non-electric sewing machine (I hate hand sewing) simalarly a loom and spinning weel. Wool and Linen can be obtained in colder climates. And clothing will wear out. If socity dies i shure as hell want some way to make clothing. I have a fealing that someone with a treadle sewing machine loom and spinning weel could do quite well. Assuming that there is still some form of commerce than simple things like textiles will be very popular. a bow or crossbow. again a modern gun needs a high technology to support it. A good bow does not. Or if you want a rev war stile musket. Blackpowder and lead balls. This you could make without to much trouble. However a muzzle loading blackpowder musket will probably have a slower shot rate than your crossbow or longbow. An archer friend of mine says that for example he can get off 7 shots in 30 seconds and that he knows people who can get off 10-12 (with a hand bow not a crossbow). Also Ive been told that blackpowder guns can explode if not made properly. this summer I saw somone with a treadle lathe. While it would take a lot more skill than I have to run one of those things. However I can see wanting one. Anyhow Zach (Hoping that if the end comes it is the 3rd week in August) zkessin@world.std.com From decastro@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:40 EDT 1994 Article: 282 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!decastro From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) Subject: Re: talk about this? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <358n5n$b5u@golden.ncw.net> <35a8mk$ifh@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 04:39:02 GMT Lines: 18 honig@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) writes: > bhampton@golden.ncw.net (Brad Hampton) writes: >>does any one know how long xxx gal. of unleaded fuel will last in storage? >>x=1-5 >> 5-20 >> 20-50 >> 50-+ >>is ther a rule of thum ie. for every gal. of stored fuel add 3 months? >> Get some fuel stabilizer (Sta-Bil or equal). Follow the directions. It works. -- ============================================================================ decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! -Don't Tread On Me!- ============================================================================ From steiners@indirect.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:41 EDT 1994 Article: 283 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!indirect.com!steiners From: steiners@indirect.com (Jason and Heather) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Water Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:13:20 GMT Organization: Internet Direct, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <35dttg$dtr@herald.indirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bud.indirect.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] i live in a desert, so the subject of water is of some importance. if there were a major loss of (electrical) power, what's the best way to obtain drinkable water? is there an easy way to make sure that reserves are available? long term situations would be even more difficult, but they're also more rare. the more i think about the alternatives, the more i'd like to plan ahead. is anyone interested in creating a FAQ on basic survival subjects like this? jason -- Don't blame me. I voted Libertarian. `,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` steiners@indirect.com `,`,`,` From decastro@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:42 EDT 1994 Article: 284 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!decastro From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) Subject: Re: What is meant by Light Aircraft Crew Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <35b6qg$nin@nic-nac.CSU.net> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 04:40:36 GMT Lines: 16 haacm024@huey.csun.edu (Duane Smeckert) writes: >Light aircraft are generally single engine propeller driven fixed wing >aircraft. There is an actual limit but I don't have my references handy. >Duane A light aircraft is one with a maximum landing weight of 12,500 lbs or less. Federal Aviation Regulation Part 1. -- ============================================================================ decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! -Don't Tread On Me!- ============================================================================ From pyro@chopin.udel.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:43 EDT 1994 Article: 285 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!udel!news-4.nss.udel.edu!chopin.udel.edu!not-for-mail From: pyro@chopin.udel.edu (Thomas Rich Schwerdt) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 17 Sep 1994 01:38:14 -0400 Organization: University of Delaware Lines: 26 Message-ID: <35dvc6$s52@chopin.udel.edu> References: <35cr6i$dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com> <35d145$m5q@engnews2.eng.sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu In article <35d145$m5q@engnews2.eng.sun.com>, Robert Allen wrote: >In article dmv@newsserver.nj.nec.com, behanna@syl.nj.nec.com (Chris BeHanna) writes: >+ Tip: someone said you could reload using white-tipped matches for >+primers. Anyone have any info on this? It would seem to be survival-relevant. >You can supposedly use the white tips to reload primers only, not ammo. >You're supposed to scavenge propellent from old artillery shells for the >powder I guess. All this info came from US military manuals designed >for unconventional warefare. The white tips need to be mixed with a bit of ground glass before being used as primers. With a bit of work, used primers can supposedly be recycled for this purpose (carefully removing anvil, flattening dents, refilling with glass/tip powder, replacing anvil) Quite a few other things can be used for propellant, but most of them are a bit difficult to obtain (a potassium chlorate/sugar mixture is about the easiest really effective powder) The leftover match heads can be used (ground up of course) for a very low quality, but workable powder. Do NOT under any circumstances attempt to combine these recipes to "strech" any potassium chlorate you may have. Any sulfur (as in the match heads) will make the potassium chlorate unstable -- to be technical, it acts as a sensitizer. it will not be any more powerful, but it WILL be liable to go off at any time. I will try to look up my references soon and post a followup. -Tom the Melaniephile From nobody@csua.berkeley.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:43 EDT 1994 Article: 286 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU!remailer From: Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Date: 17 Sep 1994 06:41:38 GMT Organization: none Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35e332$gi7@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.csua.berkeley.edu Errors-To: nobody@soda.berkeley.edu Originator: remailer@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU In article <35a6o3$4bl@newkodak.rdcs.kodak.com> you write: :In article <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: :>I heard you got a Sten. My friends and me picked up a Mini-14. I got :>it with a night scope and a night scope. It's cool. I heard about a :>gunsmith with all the tools we need to make it fully automatic. : :One MUST remember that a fully automatic wepon without the proper FFL is :just cause for a visit somewhere where the only survival tools are hard :protective covers for your rectum! You were discussing communications :security, but where do you think that various government agencies will be looking for information about people and ideas? It will be HERE and in :rec.guns. It might be a good idea to go a little lighter on obvious :criminal ideas that might be associated with a name and internet address! : :In a lot of states night vision technology MOUNTED on a rifle is also a :no-no. I do not know the laws of your state. I keep a hand held :infrared viewer with a good lense installed for night use, and for my :rifle, Rem 700vs .380 I put on a 56mm low light scope. I have found :that using the viewer to look through the scope works and that you can :see over the sights of a handgun just fine with it at night. I have :never fired when using the viewer, but I was interested in trying it :in as many ways as possible. I didn't write that. As someone already pointed out, that block was computer-generated, by the remailer, just like this one is: I stole 10 pounds of TNT. We're waiting for them to tell us what the target is then we'll blow it up. -------- For more information about this anonymous posting service,please send mail to remailer@csua.berkeley.edu with Subject: remailer-info. -------- From genEn@gold.tc.umn.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:44 EDT 1994 Article: 287 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!dialup-3-161.gw.umn.edu!genEn From: genericEntity Subject: Worst fears Message-ID: X-Xxmessage-Id: X-Xxdate: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 17:38:55 GMT Sender: news@news.cis.umn.edu (Usenet News Administration) Nntp-Posting-Host: dialup-3-161.gw.umn.edu Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities X-Newsreader: Nuntius Version 1.2 References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:35:58 GMT Lines: 13 In article <358qn4$93q@potogold.rmii.com> Robert Payne, rpayne@rmii.com writes: >The 'survivalist' has now looked to the 'organized' militias that >have begun to form in various regions, concerned about that dreaded >day that the knock on the door comes (or no-knock) and the agents >of the government enter to sieze 'illegal' weapons and ammunition. That day is not too long off, I fear...I came here 15 years ago from the USSR, and that very government that turns it's best and strongest into defacto criminals is Here and Now. We have one last chance to change this November...I hope we de because if we don't the People's Republic of America will be what we call home. From whitmore@tahoma.cwu.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:45 EDT 1994 Article: 288 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!tahoma.cwu.edu!tahoma.cwu.edu!not-for-mail From: whitmore@tahoma.cwu.edu (Rattlesnake Stu) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Water filtration Date: 16 Sep 1994 16:25:46 -0700 Organization: Central Washington University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <35d9hq$qkt@tahoma.cwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tahoma.cwu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] One of the key elements to body function is water, but storing it is not practical for long-term survival, due to space, weight, freshness, etc. Thus, to me, it seems important to have a reliable system for reclaiming contaminated water into a usably-pure form. I'd be interested to hear what systems people use, recommend, and/or would warn against. I'm interested in provision capacities ranging from on-the-trail to small community needs. Comments? -- (* Stuart Whitmore: whitmore@tahoma.cwu.edu, Arcane.Wisdom@UniNova.COM *) (* My writings do not specifically represent CWU. *) (* Unlike Clinton and many members of our government, I value your and *) (* my liberty and will fight to defend our mutual rights. Will you? *) From benke@csn.org Sat Sep 17 11:21:45 EDT 1994 Article: 289 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!benke From: benke@csn.org (David Benke) Subject: talk about this? Message-ID: Sender: news@csn.org (The Daily Planet) Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 23:24:50 GMT Lines: 19 Earlier poster was VERY right about storing fuel (in this case gasoline) I had a lawn mower that sat for 4 years. Not only did the fuel evaporate but the gunk completely clogged the fuel system. It is waiting for me to pull the fuel tank and de-gunk it. How long do fuel stablizers work? How long does fuel last under normal conditions. My dad, arbiter of all issues with regard to small engines, suggests you should drain the tank in a (insert internal combustion engine powered device here) even if you are planning to let it sit for a winter! How does MTBE (methyl-tetra butyl ether) put in gas affect the "shelf life". benke benke@csn.org From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:46 EDT 1994 Article: 292 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 16 Sep 1994 19:39:47 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <35dac3$5qm@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <35d35s$g50@shemesh.tis.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu > >How in the world did you ever learn about edible plants? When I first took >up backpacking, I tried to learn what I could safely eat. I bought and read >several books and searched for better books. Inevitably, these books would >have pencil drawings of plants, and crude drawings at that. There was no way >I could identify a plant from the pictures and descriptions. Oh, maybe I Buy a copy of the Boy Scout Fieldbook. Most of the major edible plants are easily identifiable in the wild. But I wouldn't want to have to subsist on them all the time. Yech! ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:21:47 EDT 1994 Article: 295 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Date: 16 Sep 1994 23:56:48 GMT Organization: Sun Microcomputer Corporation Lines: 121 Message-ID: <35dbc0$n6n@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> References: Reply-To: rja@Eng.Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: batcomfs.eng.sun.com In article 1609941552170001@144.52.104.196, kovar@nda.com (David C. Kovar) writes: + + Being an EMT doesn't give me a good idea of what should be in there, +unfortunately. I'd love to take a wilderness EMT course, and then I'd +have a better idea. EMTs, *in general*, must stabilize a patient and +get them to the hospital as fast as possible. You stock up with +tools, and training, for stabilization - splits, bandages, MAST +trousers, O2, breath masks, and the like. + + A book on wilderness first aid would also provide a good list of what +you'd want to carry. *Completely* off the top of my head, I'd want to +have: + +Bandaging materials +* Sterile gauze, bandages, and tape +* Trauma pads The bandages don't need to be sterile, since the moment you open the package in a non-sterile environment the contents will cease to be sterile. The wound won't be sterile either. Fortunately there is a discount on non-sterile packed bul bandage materials :-). + +Splint materials +* Splint boards. +* Folding splint, perhaps +* Several slings. (Good for splints, slings, dressings, pads, etc.) All these things are improvised on site, from parts of backpacks, clothing, or if necessary, the surrounding natural environment. I do carry a couple of military surplus triangular bandages, but I use them as head-kerchiefs or sweat rags, not for slings :-). +Tools +* Rescue shears The shears are nice, but when I go backpacking I don't carry them due to bulk and lack of versatility. Instead I carry a swiss army knife with blades and scissors. It's a pain to use trauma sheers to cut fine pieces of molefoam. +* Scalpel My swiss army knife is sharp enough for any work I have to do. +* Flashlight +* Pen +* Notepad Yup. I carry these when backpacking anyhow. +* Stethescope +* BP cuff Nope. In the wilderness these things are nice, but not necessary. Aside from taking the BP, the steth. doesn't seem particularly useful, and you probably won't be taking BP in the wilderness. Odds are I'll be listening only for breath sounds, to detect internal injuries, and I can do that w/out a steth. +* Breath mask If you mean a CPR protective mask, I strongly agree! Dr. Weiss told an interesting story about a river rafter who stopped to give CPR to a victim of a fall from the riverside. The fall victim later died, and was diagnosed as having Hepatitis B! The rescuer was sure wishing he had a CPR mask. + +Fluids +* Alcohol +* Sterile water +* Betadine All you'll need is some betadine prep pads and clean water. I carry PolarPure to purify my drinking water, and according to Dr. Weiss (who's on a grant to study the use of sterile saline, betadine, and plain water for wound irrigation), use of clean water will have the lowest chance of contributing to bacterial growth in a wound in the wilderness. Pure betadine was the highest and sterile saline was next down on the list. 8 drops of betadine (*NOT* the Betadine surgical scrub!) per quart, left to sit for a while, will reportedly purify the water enough that it can be used to irrigate even deep wounds. Cut the corner off a prep pad envelop and squeeze out the betadine into water. I carry a 1 oz bottle of HibaClens (an anti-bacterial soap) to use in diluted form to clean scrapes and abrasions, but I think I'll replace that with Dial soap, so I can use it double duty for cleaning my clothes, dishes, etc. +For survival issues, with no regards to legal issues, I'd probably add: +* Painkillers +* Muscle relaxants +* Various other over the counter medicines The prescription meds I carry currently are Tylenol #3 (tylenol w/ codeine) and Keflex (an antibiotic). I also have Epinepherine (for anyphalactic emergencies) and Lydocaine (for if I ever have to debride a wound before closing it; an unlikely occurance). All these meds are for my personal use on myself only however. I would never presume to use them on someone else -- I'm not a doctor. + +*Please* do not take this as an exhaustive list. Please *do* read up on +it yourself, get the required training, and know how to use it. Ditto! --- Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer. The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94 From rodneywa@leo.unm.edu Sat Sep 17 11:21:48 EDT 1994 Article: 296 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!lynx.unm.edu!leo.unm.edu!rodneywa From: rodneywa@leo.unm.edu (Rodney C. Ward) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: A way to deal with pain Date: 16 Sep 1994 23:54:02 GMT Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque Lines: 15 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35db6q$dfu@lynx.unm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: leo.unm.edu One time I had a severe motorcycle accident, that caused a double compound facture of my leg. Anyway, this happened at 1 am in a place where there was no one. Instead of laying there and maybe bleeding to death, I crawled with my elbows and my back towards the ground and my leg elevated to a nearby street. I managed to flag down one of the few cars that passed by. I was under 18 years of age so the hospital couldn't give me any pain-killers without a signature from my mom, who was 120 miles away in my hometown. So again, I waited. Finally, at around 7 am I got what I wanted along with many jokes from the doctor about how he didn't treat motorcycle accident victims. Besides LOTS of cuss words and an occasional joke, I remember trying to like leave my body and just like float away for awhile. Maybe this was shock induced I don't know, but the idea itself did allow me to get my mind off the pain. A girl I know said she would do the same thing when she was being abused as a child. survival tip: My uncle told me that, when he was in Vietnam, that the children would gather around the street lights at night and eat the bugs attracted to the light. From jdc@taligent.com Sat Sep 17 11:21:48 EDT 1994 Article: 298 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!taligent!dave-croyle.taligent.com!user From: jdc@taligent.com (The Kurgan) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: Sender: usenet@taligent.com (More Bytes Than You Can Read) Organization: Banzai Institute References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <35a2vp$bv@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.165947.14594@ictv.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:34:11 GMT Lines: 15 In article <1994Sep16.165947.14594@ictv.com>, tmh@ictv.com (Todd Hoff) wrote: ...... We've weaved the web, it will not be easily > undone. Except that EMP will cheerfully fry 99% of home/office pc's in a nuclear scenario. Again I say that the net is a resource and therefore by definition should not be overlooked, but certainly don't *depend* on it. Also your chances of success will be increased with planning. How will you deal with a lack of available power to run hardware? Will that EMP fry your machine? Will the phone line that runs out of your house (the one your modem probably depends on) be knocked out by a falling tree? Solve these problems before they *are* problems and you win half the battle. Just another 2¢. Dave From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 11:21:49 EDT 1994 Article: 299 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 17 Sep 1994 10:08 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 30 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199410085343@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35ai1j$j63@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo4.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <35ai1j$j63@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu>, honig@ics.uci.edu (David A. Honig) writes... > rwalters@bu.edu (Ronald Walters) writes: >>I think it more likely that this newsgroup concerns >>the art of staying alive in the wilderness. Yet, I haven't >>seen any posts on the subject *sigh* Maybe I'll have to >>post some files on the subject to straighten things out. >> > >>P.S. Is this group going to have a moderator or what? > > >Unless you're volunteering, probably not. > >This group forked off rec.guns, not just rec.treehuggers :-), so >deal with it. Also, most people (alas) live in cities. Uh, no. This group did not "fork" off of anything. I created this group to deal with survival issues - which may include firearms. The people you call treehuggers are more welcome than those who want to have the plans for automatic weapons but don't know anything about tanning hides or preserving food (as another poster alreasy said...) ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 11:21:50 EDT 1994 Article: 300 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: rec.survialism: Practicum Yes Politics No Date: 17 Sep 1994 07:02:59 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org I have been interested in this topic for years. My family has a long history, Pre WW II, of caching and retreat preperation. I consult on land acquisition, self sufficiency and security. I am very political. What I hope to get from this group is a forum for practical ideas, suggestions and methods. What I don't need is somebody holding a match under the bulb of my political thermometer. I would like to invite others who feel this way to debate methods of keeping the flamage and political rants to a minimum. I for one plan to ask posters to politely take there discussions elsewhere. In return I plan to stick around and share my not inconsiderable knowledge *blush*. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 11:21:51 EDT 1994 Article: 301 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 17 Sep 1994 10:24 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199410242735@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> <35b05g$gd0@blkbox.blkbox.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo4.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <35b05g$gd0@blkbox.blkbox.COM>, guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) writes... >Gerald Brennan (gbrennan@umich.edu) wrote: >: George Guillory (guillory@blkbox.com) wrote: >: : Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that >: : the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms >: : (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. > >: But that's crazy. As unpleasant and _presumably_ irrelevant as these >: topics may be to some, they are indeed part of the picture, and should >: not be ignored. Those who don't wish to participate in those threads, if >: they develop, need not do so. The gun forums are not designed >: _specifically_ for the survivalist point-of-view. > >The problem I see about running a thread of more that one or two messages >about guns is that unfortunately they get longer and longer, non-gun >discussers move off and you would end up with a survival gun (mostly news >group. Look at what happended to Survive and American Survival Guide >(who is scraping back from such a move.) > >Now if someone wanted to start misc.survivalism.guns that is another matter. This might not be such a bad idea. When we created this group it was decided not to make this a forum for firearms. There are many facets of survivalism that have nothing to do with them and there are so many other groups that deal with guns. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 11:21:52 EDT 1994 Article: 302 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.dell.com!tadpole.com!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: The Gun Ban Date: 17 Sep 1994 10:27 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199410270798@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> <35b1ut$979@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo4.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <35b1ut$979@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, sybok@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (The Rifleman) writes... >In article <35aghu$621@agate.berkeley.edu> Tommy the Tourist (Anon User) writes: >>I stole a MAK. > >How did a common criminal like yourself get net access? If this is how much >you respect others' rights, maybe you should join ATF. (snip rest of off topic post) This is an example of a non-topic post. If you want to discuss this, please do it in email or in a firearm usenet group. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 11:21:54 EDT 1994 Article: 303 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.dell.com!tadpole.com!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: FAQ Date: 17 Sep 1994 10:51 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 126 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199410511821@pavo.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo4.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 Welcome to the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for misc.survivalism! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Modified last on September 17, 1994 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ More than just a list of questions and answers, FAQ's are short introductions to the community that subscribe to the newsgroup. In misc.survivalism, we discuss survival theory. If there was one line we could lift out of our charter to sum up the group it would be, "The prevailing philosophy of misc.survivalism is that I and the ones I love want to remain alive no matter what." Q) What can we talk about on misc.survivalism? A) Anything to do with survival theory, including emergency prepardness. Need plans for a shelter? Ask. Fly an aircraft and want to know what to what to pack "just in case"? Ask. Hate firearms and want to spout off? _Don't_ ask - see next question. Q) What _don't_ you talk about in misc.survivalism? A) There are two main categories of posting _not_ appreciated on m.s. There is no moderator on this group - we like it that way. Post things in these two categories and you will get lots of hate mail... 1) Personal objections to theory which do not include survivalist/ emergency prepardness material. For example, if one person describes his technique for food hoarding - and you think it immoral - write to him or her in email. Don't put it on the group. Same thing about firearms, we're not pro- or anti-gun as a group. Individual members who wish to talk about that topic can go to talk.politics.guns. If someone posts something about survivalist therory which you believe is _technically_ wrong (like description of an edible plant for example) then go ahead and discuss that. 2) Postings which have nothing to do with our group. Someone who wants to know what to do with his collection of 15 illegal automatics belongs on rec.guns. Contrary to some misinformed users, we did _not_ split from rec.guns and do _not_ want to duplicate their group. Also don't spam us with ads for skin cream, lottery tickets, x-rated videos etc... Keep on topic, flames belong in alt.flame or through email. Q) How is this group controled? A) As said before, misc. survivalism is not moderated. We operate on common sense. If you see someone posting up non-survivalist material, we encourage you to send them a followup by email asking them to keep on target. No one wants a newsgroup with 150+ messages a day with only 25 posts of any substance... Q) Who's reading this group? A) There were over 400 people who voted for this group's creation. When I was starting this up, I met many of them through email. They come from as far away as Germany and Australia and from all walks of life. They are weekend campers, Boy Scout leaders, officers and enlisted men from armies all around the globe, or just people concerned with their safety. Something that surprised me (that really shouldn't have) is the number of women who mailed me during the groups proposal. Q) Anyone _else_ reading this group? A) By the very nature of survivalist theory, some people raise their eyebrows in suspicion. Therefore keep in mind that this is a public newsgroup and _anyone_ who has net access can read this group. This includes government agencies, so while it's not (at least on this group) prohibited to discuss techniques or actions which stray outside legal frameworks - it might be prudent to think carefully before putting your name on such a post. Using an anonymous server (one not based in your country) would be a helpful option. Q) I have a question not covered by this FAQ. A) I'm sure there are lots. This FAQ is still in its infancy. So for now, follow the above rules and you'll be fine. Questions I see repeated often will be added here. Q) Who are you? A) I am the proposer of misc.survivalism. For now I also do the FAQ, this might change if someone else wants the job... You can contact me by email at . Q) Where can I look for more information? A) Wendell has suggested a few books which might be helpful for getting basic information on the survival topic. Please mail any suggestions for additions (or deletions :) ) directly to him. General Books C.G. Cobb, Bad Times Primer. This provides an overview of most fields of self-reliance and makes recommendations for equipment and fields of study. Note that it was written around 1979, so some information is out of date. Bruce Clayton, Life After Doomsday. Primarily focused around nuclear war survival skills, this book provides basic information on survival skills and, more important, references to find out more about those skills covered in brief. This was written in the late 1970s, so some of the information is out of date. Self-Reliance Colin Fletcher, The Complete Walker Dean Ing, The Chernobyl Syndrome Mel Tappan, Tappan On Survival Nuclear War Survival Dean Ing, Pulling Through Cresson Kearny, Nuclear War Survival Skills Firearms Massad Ayoob, The Truth About Self Protection Massad Ayoob, Stressfire Mel Tappan, Survival Guns Reference Books American Radio Relay League, The Radio Amateur's Handbook CRC Press, CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics ["The Rubber Bible"] Medical Economics Company, Physicians Desk Reference ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 11:44:45 EDT 1994 Article: 304 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: A Good Start Date: 17 Sep 1994 07:19:14 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <358s45$llc$1@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> <35a865$4gd@sun.lclark.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org burton@sun.lclark.edu (Kathleen Burton) writes: >thanks for the info on the basics of survivalism. >i'd be specifically interested in finding out about living the 1800's >way. where can i find out more? books? or do you know anyplace that >would offer classes? or just trial and error? or find someone to >teach me? For starters: The early issues of _Whole Earth Catalog_, published during the back to the land period have many reference to good books/tools. Eric Stone's books on early American rural technology are excellent sources. There is also a book, published by the Farmers Home Admin. in the '30's, called i think, _One Acre and Freedom_ with lots of good information. Since technology exploded during the 1800's I think your question is about appropriate technology and self sufficiency. You can dig a well and use a home made wooden bucket or buy an old Dempster windmill. With the first option you are practically self sufficient. With the second, you at least need a blacksmith for repairs. It is possible to vanish into the woods with a double bit ax, a shovel, and a few odds and ends. Given time you can provide. This may be the baseline. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 11:44:46 EDT 1994 Article: 305 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Date: 17 Sep 1994 07:29:36 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com (Frank Langham) writes: >IMHO, > Survival Equals = : > * Water > * Food > * Security (=guns & concealment & non-provocative attitude) > * Shelter >... In that order... Comments? >=Frank= These are probably very good subject headings for posts. For example: FOOD: What Fruit Trees to Plant. FOOD: Growing Grains WATER: What is a hydrostatic ram pump? SECURITY: Low Civil Disorder Sites SHELTER: Rammed Earth vs. Adobe We might want to start using these to keep the political flamage lowered. By the way there is a great News group on food preservation, I can't remember the words and dots and rec.guns is also a resource. Any other net resources? > -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From rbmurray@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 11:59:01 EDT 1994 Article: 306 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swiss.ans.net!meaddata!babbage.ece.uc.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!overload.lbl.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uop!csus.edu!netcom.com!rbmurray From: rbmurray@netcom.com (Robert B. Murray) Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> <359pih$ivc@selway.umt.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 15:01:45 GMT Lines: 29 Andrew J Velkey (velkey@selway.umt.edu) wrote: [snip] : I would say that a gun need not necessarily be of a concealable type : to be useful. A rifle will serve this purpose much better. A handgun : (the type of gun usually concealed) is **relatively** ineffective in : a survival situation. You can't protect yourself against very large : threats (Bears, Moose, etc.) and, [snip] : I feel is the superiority of rifles/shotguns over handguns in a survival : situation. A handgun would be better than no gun, but there are better : options. It kind of depends on the type of predators in your area. In mine, the dominant predator is homo sapiens. These are wily little creatures that frequently hunt in "teams" and will undoubtedly be near by in the majority of situations (storms, earthquakes, war) where _most_ of us might encounter survival conditions. In addition, since the time and date of disasters can't always be predicted, there is value in having some kind of weapon available at all times. This is the value of a handgun - surviving long enough to get to your home-base. Now the ethics and legality of carrying a handgun are another issue. Here in Oregon we have a system to permit concealed carry and ample opportunity to learn safe and accurate gun handling. Dale c/o rbmurray@netcom.com ----------------------- Don't tread on me. From mark@kodak.rdcs.kodak.com Sat Sep 17 11:59:02 EDT 1994 Article: 307 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swiss.ans.net!meaddata!babbage.ece.uc.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM!not-for-mail From: mark@kodak.rdcs.kodak.com (KP) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Addition to Crime Bill Date: 17 Sep 1994 11:33:07 -0400 Organization: Eastman Kodak Company Lines: 13 Sender: magnum@cs.umd.edu Message-ID: <35dl3f$8fq@park.rdcs.kodak.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xring.cs.umd.edu I was talking to the owner of THE CUSTOM GUN SHOP in Walworth Ny. today and was informed that when he tried to place a new order to Ruger for more Mini-14's (today) that Ruger informed him that an addition to the crime bill banning Mini-14's and Mini-30s was being put in place and that todays order would be his last! Has anyone else heard about this? The Mini-14 was excluded right in the bill and now the government is changing that too! Mark Hilliard, N2HHR mark@kodak.com From adam@veda.is Sat Sep 17 11:59:03 EDT 1994 Article: 308 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!sunic!isgate!veda.is!adam From: adam@veda.is (Adam David) Subject: Re: storing grains Organization: Veda Systems, Iceland Message-ID: References: <35amrl$29o@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 15:10:15 GMT Lines: 14 lauramc@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu (Laura McDonald) writes: >so to get this thing started off (with out the guns and such), what is >a good way to store grain and greens without the 'frig. and other >machinery ie: ala natural, without it molding over the winter months >(exp. in areas like florida)? Get it dry and keep it dry. Whole grains keep virtually forever so long as they don't get damp or infested. Wet stuff keeps best at low pH, which is what pickling is all about. Natural honey is a useful preservative for laying up fresh food in. -- Adam David From adam@veda.is Sat Sep 17 11:59:03 EDT 1994 Article: 309 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!sunic!isgate!veda.is!adam From: adam@veda.is (Adam David) Subject: Re: Shelf life of foods Organization: Veda Systems, Iceland Message-ID: References: <35b64a$fm1@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 15:13:58 GMT Lines: 18 mikescase@aol.com (MikeSCase) writes: >Just a quick note, does anyone know what the average shelf life of some of >the following off-the-shelf foods are? What method of storing.. >air-tight container, etc. >rice >pasta >dried beans and other legumes Pasta will not keep as long as the others because it is already broken down. Whole grains and legumes will keep for thousands of years if they are dried normally, and even have a reasonably high sprouting rate after that. Grain from the pyramids has been sprouted, and probably has nothing to do with "pyramid power". -- Adam David From sucilla@ih4ehz.att.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:39 EDT 1994 Article: 310 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!overload.lbl.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!gw1.att.com!nntpa!not-for-mail From: sucilla@ih4sh.ih.att.com (John "C". Sucilla) Subject: Bobby Rush (was: Re: FBI) Message-ID: Sender: news@nntpa.cb.att.com (Netnews Administration) Nntp-Posting-Host: ih4sh-gw.ih.att.com Reply-To: sucilla@ih4ehz.att.com Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories References: <35a435$11l@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 16:12:11 GMT Lines: 16 gannon@sbphy.physics.ucsb.edu (Mark Andrew Gannon) tossed this our way... >The Government moved swiftly and with extreme force to crush the Black >Panther Party for Self Defense in the 1960s and early 70s. >This is not so surprising- the Panthers were patrolling Oakland with >shotguns and lawbooks, protecting the people from police abuse. Congresman Bobby Rush is an ex-Black Panther and convicted felon, is he not? If this is true, I don't see how he could ever have been elected. I know felons aren't allowed to vote so how does one get elected to public office? -- John C. Sucilla - AT&T Bell Labs 708.979.0599 sucilla@ih4ehz.att.com Don't Tread On Me. From adam@veda.is Sat Sep 17 17:45:40 EDT 1994 Article: 311 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!sunic!isgate!veda.is!adam From: adam@veda.is (Adam David) Subject: Re: COMPUTERS Organization: Veda Systems, Iceland Message-ID: References: <35cpkj$iae@borcore.usbr.gov> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 16:08:31 GMT Lines: 15 hdavis@usbr.gov writes: >And the lease lines the internet rides on are going to be some of the >last ones restored. Some of them are direct "wire to wire", so unless the continuity is actually damaged, they will hold out nicely in the absence of power and functioning telco equipment. Of course you still need local power at the ends. It is definitely worth having backup links. -- Adam David From adam@veda.is Sat Sep 17 17:45:41 EDT 1994 Article: 312 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!sunic!isgate!veda.is!adam From: adam@veda.is (Adam David) Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Organization: Veda Systems, Iceland Message-ID: References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> <16SEP199411535986@pavo.concordia.ca> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 16:11:12 GMT Lines: 14 tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) writes: >Water. Without it you only have days. Either you planned and have it >stored or you better find it. Air. Without it you only have minutes. >Food. Important, but bottom of this list. Low priority for short term, but higher priority for the long term. Consider sustainability in a hostile environment. -- Adam David From adam@veda.is Sat Sep 17 17:45:42 EDT 1994 Article: 313 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!sunic!isgate!veda.is!adam From: adam@veda.is (Adam David) Subject: Algae culture Organization: Veda Systems, Iceland Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 16:25:08 GMT Lines: 12 For a longterm siege or entrapment scenario, all food and possibly air would have to be produced locally. Imagine an underground (physically) community. How do you produce enough air and food? Electricity can be generated by an underground stream and/or human power. Algae is good for converting light and stale air into food and fresh air. Now back to my main question: How do you grow Algae at home? Where can the cultures be got from and how to maintain them? Any good books/resources on the subject? -- Adam David From dsh@bga.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:43 EDT 1994 Article: 314 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swiss.ans.net!meaddata!babbage.ece.uc.edu!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!bga.com!bga.com!nobody From: dsh@bga.com (Douglas Holtsinger) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: SURVIVALIST GUN NUTS Date: 17 Sep 1994 12:17:49 -0500 Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates Lines: 4 Message-ID: <35f8bt$mt3@lia.bga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lia.bga.com Survivalists are just a bunch of whacked-out gun nuts who fantasize about their "doomsday" scenarios while masturbating into the barrels of their BB guns. Get a life, you freaks!! From decastro@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:43 EDT 1994 Article: 315 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!decastro From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) Subject: Re: storing grains Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <35amrl$29o@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 16:58:18 GMT Lines: 25 lauramc@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu (Laura McDonald) writes: >so to get this thing started off (with out the guns and such), what is >a good way to store grain and greens without the 'frig. and other >machinery ie: ala natural, without it molding over the winter months >(exp. in areas like florida)? >-- > **!!** Laura **!!** > #1 FSU fan It depends on how much you have to store, but for example, take the plastic 5 gallon buckets that food comes in (with lids, and clean, of course) and place dry ice on the bottom of it (3-4 inch thick layer), and then fill the container with the grain. place the lid on almost completely tightly, and when the dry ice sublimes into CO2, snap the lid on. You've just flushed the container with CO2, and it will keep the vermin down. Greens probably need to be preserved via canning. -- ============================================================================ decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! -Don't Tread On Me!- ============================================================================ From decastro@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:44 EDT 1994 Article: 316 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!decastro From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro) Subject: Re: Giardiasis / Archival Volunteers Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> <35a3ca$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 17:00:45 GMT Lines: 24 shootist@netcom.com (Shootist) writes: >131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 (rdh@arriva.dr.att.com) wrote: >: The number one cause of sickness from unsterilized water is >: from a bacteria called (I think) giardia . This >: bacteria makes you sick as a dog, but I don't think it's fatal. >: Robert Holder >In the above posts, re: purifying water through boiling and iodine were >mentioned. One of the best ways to make water potable is to add one >tablespoon of Clorox per gallon of water. Better tasting than boiling >and cheaper than iodine And not as efffective as either one, unfortunately. Chlorinine will bind to any organic material in the waterr, reducing the free halogens available to disinfect the water. . -- ============================================================================ decastro@netcom.com Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - As long as the Government pretends to protect me, I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT! -Don't Tread On Me!- ============================================================================ From bbowser@enterprise.america.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:45 EDT 1994 Article: 317 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!america.com!not-for-mail From: bbowser@enterprise.america.com (William Bowser) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: How Many Items?? Date: 17 Sep 1994 13:37:19 -0400 Organization: PSS InterNet Services, InterNet in Fl 904 253 7100 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <35f9gf$nig@enterprise.america.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: enterprise.america.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Just a small entry into this new group. Having lived in Montana for a number of years and to do so again soon, there is a neat thing to do. Get a friend and outfit yourselves with an iron skillet, salt and pepper, a knife and plenty of waterproof matches and a 22 pistol with 100 rounds of ammunition. RESULT: about 6 days of some very nice trekking the woods, eating, people would pay $$ for and a sense of having done something no-thought you could. Respectfully; -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< William C. Bowser bbowser@america.com 1600 Big Tree Rd. P-5 LOCK and LOAD..this could get messy! Daytona Beach, FL. 32119 904-767-9032 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From pturner@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:46 EDT 1994 Article: 318 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!pturner From: pturner@netcom.com (Patton M Turner) Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 17:21:52 GMT Lines: 37 bruce@slc.com (Bruce Schuchardt) writes: >I usually boil my water, too, but a friend recently suggested adding >a few drops of bleach (you know, Clorox) to water to kill germs and then >letting it sit overnight. I've been using bleach to disinfect beer- >making equipment for years. Anyone heard of doing this before? Bleach works real well as long as the the bleach is 5.25 percent sodium hipochlorite. Use 8 drops per gallon, shake for 15 min and if you don't get a chlorine smell retreat. Main problem is chlorine can react with organic materials to form trihalomethanes (THM's) which are suspected carcinagens. Municipal water systems use floculation ponds to help remove organic matter. Letting the water sit for a long period of time will accomplish the same thing. I have heard thatBleach deterates over time, but haven't been able to conform this. Iodine solution can also be used, either tincture of iodine, or a saturated solution made from resublimated crystals. The latter is real easy to make. Take USP crystals. Add Water. Shake for 1 min. If any crystals remain you have a saturated solution. Add 0.0125% (12.5 ml per liter/quart) saturated solution to water at room temp. Iodine is used in many water purification tablets such as Potable Aqua, because it is not as senstitive to the pH, tekperature, or organic content of the water as chlorine. It is not reccomended for people with hyperthyroidism. or for long term use. I prefer a ceramic filter such as the Katadyn myself. If I had to make it last for a long time I would run the water through a prefilter to remove as much of the sediment as possable. Activated charcoal with chlorine pretreatment is another good method, and is the only non energy consuming way I know of to remove chemicals from the water. Pat From bbowser@enterprise.america.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:46 EDT 1994 Article: 319 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!america.com!not-for-mail From: bbowser@enterprise.america.com (William Bowser) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Bacon,preservation? Date: 17 Sep 1994 13:52:23 -0400 Organization: PSS InterNet Services, InterNet in Fl 904 253 7100 Lines: 12 Message-ID: <35facn$nrq@enterprise.america.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: enterprise.america.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Having a great love of bacon, I would yield to some of you to point out how long did bacon last in the 1700's as used by the Mountain men etc. How was it preserved to last that length of time? Thanks and with Respect; -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< William C. Bowser bbowser@america.com 1600 Big Tree Rd. P-5 LOCK and LOAD..this could get messy! Daytona Beach, FL. 32119 904-767-9032 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 17:45:47 EDT 1994 Article: 320 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: COMPUTERS Date: 17 Sep 1994 14:07 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199414071456@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <35cpkj$iae@borcore.usbr.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo2.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article , adam@veda.is (Adam David) writes... >hdavis@usbr.gov writes: > >>And the lease lines the internet rides on are going to be some of the >>last ones restored. > >Some of them are direct "wire to wire", so unless the continuity is actually >damaged, they will hold out nicely in the absence of power and functioning >telco equipment. Of course you still need local power at the ends. This IMHO is the downfall on planning to have net access during times of strife. Maybe your service provider would be up, but how do you connect? If you're with out power, you could use a laptop/portable but in my experience these things use up their (unique) battery power fast. Although you get less access to people with a radio as compared to the net, I think it would be much more reliable as a form of newsgathering and communication. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 17:45:48 EDT 1994 Article: 321 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: SURVIVAL EQUALS (guns too) Date: 17 Sep 1994 14:12 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 30 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199414121240@pavo.concordia.ca> References: <359hnq$3rg@uudell.us.dell.com> <16SEP199411535986@pavo.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo2.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article , adam@veda.is (Adam David) writes... >tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) writes: > >>Water. Without it you only have days. Either you planned and have it >>stored or you better find it. > >Air. Without it you only have minutes. Ok, you got me. :) But I was working on the list already provided. It was assumed that you could breathe. >>Food. Important, but bottom of this list. > >Low priority for short term, but higher priority for the long term. >Consider sustainability in a hostile environment. Of course. But that's part of the security section. Best recourse IMHO is to remove yourself from that hostile environment. I think it wise to prepare in advance for emergency transportation, and maybe the emotional preparation of leaving your home/personal possessions behind. So what if you lose your new living room set, as long as you're alive. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca Sat Sep 17 17:45:49 EDT 1994 Article: 322 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.dell.com!tadpole.com!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!pavo.concordia.ca!tj_moll From: tj_moll@pavo.concordia.ca (MOLL, THOMAS J.) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Algae culture Date: 17 Sep 1994 14:15 -0500 Organization: Concordia University Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: <17SEP199414151281@pavo.concordia.ca> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pavo2.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article , adam@veda.is (Adam David) writes... >For a longterm siege or entrapment scenario, all food and possibly air >would have to be produced locally. Imagine an underground (physically) >community. How do you produce enough air and food? Electricity can be >generated by an underground stream and/or human power. Algae is good >for converting light and stale air into food and fresh air. Now back to >my main question: > >How do you grow Algae at home? Where can the cultures be got from and >how to maintain them? Any good books/resources on the subject? I was under the impression that you would need an enormous amount of Algae to refrsh the air of a contained environment for humans. I do not think that such a quantity could be reasonable kept at home. Algae is a popular in science fiction on "generation ships" where the population would not only receive their oxygen, but also use it as food. ----- Thomas Moll aka -Fnord | "How important it is to know how to Concordia University | disagree without being disagreeable." Department of Journalism | Montreal, Quebec, Canada | - Marvin J. Ashton (WWW resource page) http://www.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?fnord.html From zkessin@world.std.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:50 EDT 1994 Article: 323 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!news.dell.com!tadpole.com!uunet!world!zkessin From: zkessin@world.std.com (Zach) Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? Message-ID: Organization: As little as posible References: <35cslq$69u@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <1994Sep17.031154.26790@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 18:12:41 GMT Lines: 10 BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) writes: >clorox (can be used to treat questionable water in a pinch) bleach is your friend! I recently spent about 2 weeks camping and when washing my dishes i used a weak bleach solussion to sanitise them. (About 1 capfull to a gal. of water). Its knowing stuff like this that will do you wonders in preventing things like Cholora Zach. From tmh@ictv.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:50 EDT 1994 Article: 324 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!ames!ictv!tmh From: tmh@ictv.com (Todd Hoff) Subject: Re: Survivalists and Computers Message-ID: <1994Sep17.185838.26568@ictv.com> Organization: /import/news/lib/organi[sz]ation References: <359j9e$nuk@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep16.165947.14594@ictv.com> <35dip4$9d6@netaxs.com> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 18:58:38 GMT Lines: 23 In article <35dip4$9d6@netaxs.com>, r.nelson wrote: >My vote would be for VHF packet with encrytion capability. If the shit >really hits the fan, the government, if it still existed, would be too >busy to enforce FCC regs. And if internet and "offical" ham radio is >gone (transmitting of any kind is illegal), you will need all the steath >you can afford. And the internet could function fine over such a link. We would have to restrict the current free-for-all downloading of porno however :-) I think people don't recognize the true nature of the internet. It is at once something very special and nothing special. Any two computers over any type of MAC layer form an internet if they follow standard protocols. My junk 386 would be a great router if some major nodes went down. So would yours and so would dozens of others. Add these all up an we have ourselves an internet. Is it a T3 link? No. But as i recall in the early days out email and news moved just fine over a 300 baud modem hooked to a PDP 11. We don't need ARAP DARPA NIC uunet Santa Clause or anyone else. As someone pointed out EMF and lack of an electrical source complicate matters. EMF won't destroy everything and solar/hydro/wind will do for an electron pump. Like democracy, the internet will survive as long as free people act. From guillory@blkbox.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:51 EDT 1994 Article: 325 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!blkbox.COM!blkbox!guillory From: guillory@blkbox.com (George Guillory) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Water Date: 17 Sep 1994 19:10:07 GMT Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 Lines: 41 Message-ID: <35feuf$btu@blkbox.blkbox.COM> References: <35dttg$dtr@herald.indirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blkbox.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Jason and Heather (steiners@indirect.com) wrote: : i live in a desert, so the subject of water is of some importance. : if there were a major loss of (electrical) power, what's the best : way to obtain drinkable water? is there an easy way to make : sure that reserves are available? long term situations would be : even more difficult, but they're also more rare. One of my favorite methods that assumes that you are at home or semi-perm. campsite. Take your least favorite pressure canner, a short piece of new appropriately sized gasoline hose (about 3"), a box of new appropriate size copper tubeing, and two hose clamps. Remove "rocker" weight from the top of the lid and save. This mod is reversable. Place rubber hose on stub on lid, Put hose clamp on Slip other hose clamp on tube but do not tighten, Straighten about 1' of copper tube from roll Put copper tube in rubber hose and tighten second clamp "Expand" roll of tube but do not straighten Fill bottom of pressure cooker with suspect water and let 'er rip Water is vaporized and travels down the tube in to the copper tube where it cools. Catch water in pot or jar at end of tube. The best part is that you can store everything in the pressure canner, put it on the shelf and it will stay there. THis would probably also work on brackish water. Do not boil the pot dry if the water is dirty and has things floating in it. It will be the dickens to clean it out to reuse the cooker. Strain water through a cloth first. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- George Guillory, KC5HBT guillory@blkbox.com "To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 17:45:52 EDT 1994 Article: 326 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to talk about? Date: 17 Sep 1994 12:14:58 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu> <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org LONGSA%DFCS@pcmail.usafa.af.mil (Sean A. Long) writes: >In article <357qhj$b6c@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) writes: >>In article <357ppr$363@agate.berkeley.edu>, >>Shane Patrick Ahern wrote: >>>Are there any true survivalists out there? >> Yes, welcome! I'm so glad this base got started, and that my positive >>vote actually had an effect. Congratulations to all of those others who >>helped get this base installed as well. Thank you! >> My first question/topic: What's the best form of shelter to purchase >>for use in a long-term "rebellion" type of open warfare? Is something >>like the U.S. Army's two-man shelter halves a good investment or should >>I simply be content with a good water-repellent sleeping bag which I >>can roll up into my pack harness? >>^TW >From my experience teaching SERE Survival at USAFA two years, you want at >the very least to keep your sleeping bag dry at all costs. This means some >sort of cover on top (even 'chute material sheds rain when stretched tight), >and some sort of platform to keep the bag off the ground. We use both <<<<<>>>>>> I have a very nice little Gore-Tex, cammi, bivi tent. Bought it mail order on a whim. Works like a champ in very extreme weatherand has a very low profile, both physical and visual. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From iu91@sol.acs.unt.edu Sat Sep 17 17:45:53 EDT 1994 Article: 327 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!sol!iu91 From: iu91@sol.acs.unt.edu (Frank Robert James) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re:Quicksand/Mud Experiences Date: 17 Sep 1994 20:10:28 GMT Organization: University of North Texas Lines: 28 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <35fifk$obr@hermes.unt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.acs.unt.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Thanks to all who replied to my initial post looking for info on quicksand for my wifes novel in progress (to recap, she's writing a scene where two young women get stuck in quicksand/deep mud and since we haven't had actual experiences and books deal with the topic with at most a perfunctuary line or two, we've asked for experiences/info from the 'Net trekkers!) Again, thanks to all who have replied. The responces so far dealt with the physics of quicksand. It's a given now that they won't get "sucked under", etc... As Suzanne (my wife) has been reading these, the questions coming up are more of "What were they thinking/feeling as they first started to sink? Was the mud / QS sticky, runny, thick, wet, or ? Did their shoes get stuck? or their legs? or bare feet?, how fast did they sink, how deep did they get in before they paniced/got out, Did someone have to pull them out/ how were they pulled out (stick, rope, belt, etc.) etc..." If you've had mud/quicksand experience, would you mind sharing some thoughts on those subjects? Women are encouraged to reply, since Suzanne's first reaction was "EEEWWWWW!" and not how to get out! :) Thanks again, and here's the address to mail those ECards and Eletters: -Rob iu91@sol.acs.unt.edu From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 17:45:54 EDT 1994 Article: 328 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 17 Sep 1994 12:21:13 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359mhe$bdi@news.u.washington.edu> <359voh$ij8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org In Re: Guns and Survivalism: rec.guns, a moderated group, is a treasure trove of information in just these kinds of topics. Some excellent first hand info. re: Ruger 10/22, defense shotguns and handguns. Recent thread on If I Could Only Have One Gun. Some black powder people too, for you long term survival people concerned about brass, primers, powder and such. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 17:45:54 EDT 1994 Article: 329 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 17 Sep 1994 12:28:25 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org bw004b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (bucket O brains) writes: >I personaly like the M-16. What more could you ask for? I mean apart from >the necesity of keeping it very clean. It's light, very accurate, more >powerfull than you will ever need, and has excelent range. I can't see >needing more than 550m of pin point accuracy, and 800m of area target >accuracy. As for the ammo, 5.56 should not be that hard to find after a >revolution because of vast amount that the goverment has sould not be hard to >get a hold of. O well it's too bad I can't get one for my self. Pitty Of course, we can't have the Black Rifles here in California anymore. But, if I had one, which of course I don't because they are illegal, I would lean towards the CAR version, with the collapsing stock. However, there is much to be said for the .30-06 since there is more brass and bullets available, as well as far more civilian stock. M-16 .223 round is marginal for most larger game but more than adequate for longer range social work. Over 200 meters give me something a little more massy. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 17:45:55 EDT 1994 Article: 330 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: talk about this? Date: 17 Sep 1994 12:33:28 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <359d76$c4c@ceylon.gte.com> <35a23s$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org David Josephson, Josephson Engineering writes: >In <35a23s$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> locasso@tis.com (Rosaria Locasso) writes: >>In article c4c@ceylon.gte.com, alb0@roger.gte.com (Andrew Betz) writes: >>> >>> not long, unless you use a fuel stabilizer! your stored fuel will >>> form shellac and all other sorts of weird compounds after a time. >>What is the result of using gas that contains shellac and other compounds? >>Is it just like "dirty" gas, that is, it works but not well, and eventually >>clogs the carburetor? Or will it not run an engine at all? What is shellac, >>anyway? >Gasoline is made up of dozens of hydrocarbons, and lots of impurities >from the crude oil that get through distillation. Shellac is made by >dissolving the shells of a beetle in alcohol. I think what the poster <<<>>> Actually shellac is made from a member of the aphid/scale family. it is the Lac scale and it is the waxy secretion/protective covering that was used. now replaced, I think, with other resins. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 17:45:56 EDT 1994 Article: 331 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Date: 17 Sep 1994 12:38:34 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org rfelix@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) writes: >In article <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> rodneywa@triton.unm.edu (Rodney C. Ward) writes: >> > Running steams are usually safe to drink from >>unlike stale ponds which I also know from experience can only make things >>worse. >If you really want to protect your health, treat *all* water...As one >book I have rad says " You never know if there isn't a dead animal 100 >feet upstream from where you are"... >Though most water is safe to drink if you boil it, like heat a rock >>real hot and put it in your container that should kill most micros. >You need to boil it or use tablets or a filter, dropping a hot rock in >just isn't enough... >>I have used water purification tablets and I don't remember any resulting >>sickness. I heard juice from a lemon will also purify water. >I wouldn't count on lemon juice to kill viruses or bacteria in water. >Use a filter, tablets or boil it.... >>by mourning dew will have collected on the stones In arid area survival school, we were taught to dig a pit, stake a shelter half over it, put a rock in the middle and gather dew from the "dent". I've done this with black plastic near the foggy coast in calif. and have collected a pint plus in a night. Welcome but not enough. 8 mill plastic squares folded up are in my one day hike cache along with an entrenching tool. rocks are everywhere. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 17:45:57 EDT 1994 Article: 332 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Low Cost .. Low Tech Date: 17 Sep 1994 12:47:28 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <359vvn$cse@uudell.us.dell.com> <35behl$cgf@krel.iea.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org robertb@comtch.iea.com (Robert Blanchard) writes: >Frank Langham (Frank_Langham@ccmail.us.dell.com) wrote: >: And... Lets not forget tools, archery equipment and fishing gear. >: all are inexpensive and reusable... >: ...when you run out of MREs and Ammo... then? >: ...Likewise, when you run out of water purification chemicals and filters, >: you can still use distillation techniques etc. >: =Frank= >: P.S. MREs and Ammo fall more under the "Emergency Preparedness" category >: while blades, fishing gear, and archery are more toward prolonged >: Survival category. >YES. >Most people prepare for a situation that they see lasting only a short time. >also add to the list of long term gear: hand grain mill, >learn to make sour dough starter, and alcohol and a blacksmithing course >wouldnt hurt either. I've seen to many survivalists with a closet full of >weapons and they don't even know how to tan a hide or plant a tomato. >Robert >robertb@comtch.iea.com Too bloody right. Ax, short shovel, knocked down bow saw, heavy blade knife, snare wire, two small animal traps, needles (esp. sailmakers) weather proof matches, fire stick and a lot of other things are in my long term cache. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From woodman@rain.org Sat Sep 17 17:45:58 EDT 1994 Article: 333 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness Date: 17 Sep 1994 12:54:43 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) writes: >I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can >anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, >hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me. >The knives don't have to have all of the characteristics. These could be >separate knives. >At the last show I saw a realy nice one, it had a nylon chord wrapped >handle, the guard was detachable so it could be used on a stick. >Thanks Forget about throwing knives it only works in movies. You need only two maybe three knive. A heavy blade knife like a big Buck is good for defense, disjointing game etc.. A skinner with a blunt tip for skinning and small slicing. Maybe a shorter, thin bladed fish knife for finer work. Keep to established brands. Don't let you romanticism guide your selection. I have a big Buck that I have misused once or twice as a hammered wedge for wood splitting. Good as new except for some peening where the hammer hit. The Micarta handles are very durable but do get slippery, so I tape 'em for a solid grip. Functional but not too pretty. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From redin@lysator.liu.se Sat Sep 17 17:45:58 EDT 1994 Article: 334 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!sunic!umdac!fizban.solace.mh.se!news.ifm.liu.se!redin From: redin@lysator.liu.se (Magnus Redin) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Violent subjects. Date: 17 Sep 1994 20:54:35 GMT Lines: 12 Message-ID: <35fl2b$cug@newsy.ifm.liu.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: kajsa.lysator.liu.se Keywords: entrancement X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #24 (NOV) After a disaster, man made or other, with a close struggle to survive, would not the most important skill of all be to be able to cooperate with those who has lived thru it? I think the ones looking for a place to hide and defend alone would be least likely to survive. -- -- Magnus Redin Lysator Academic Computer Society redin@lysator.liu.se Mail: Magnus Redin, Rydsv{gen 240C26, 582 51 LINK|PING, SWEDEN Phone: Sweden (0)13 260046 (answering machine) and (0)120 13706 From zkessin@cs.brandeis.edu Sat Sep 17 17:45:59 EDT 1994 Article: 335 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!news.bu.edu!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!zkessin From: zkessin@cs.brandeis.edu (Zach) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Die-back Date: 17 Sep 1994 21:13:08 GMT Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept. Lines: 31 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35fm54$7ii@news.cs.brandeis.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: june.cs.brandeis.edu I first herad this premise about a year ago and have been playing with it ever since. This is assuming that there is not a nuclear war or something first. -------------------Cut Here------------------------------------ Given that the Earth's population is rising. It is at about 5.3 Billion now and by about 2050 10-12 billion people is not hard to imagine. Earth's agriculture can at this point sustain our 5.3 billion but only at minimal levels. Given a population of 10 billion agriculture will sustain humanity with almost no room for a crop failure. The disaster will come IMHO if something like an El Nino event happens. El Nino is a recurring natural event in which major currents in the pacific reverse causing world wide unusual weather. This could cause something like last years Mississippi River floods. Or else where massive droughts. Given some combination of strange weather in some of the earth's biggest food production areas. Massive reductions in world wide harvests massive starvation would set in. It is probable that as this happened as in Rwanda now epidemics would set it. Cholora TB, plague, etc etc etc. One version of this scenario has a survival rate over several years in the 10-20% range. I think this may happen. I would pick as a date 2060-2100. I hope it does not happen. Zach zkessin@world.std.com From snorthc@.nswc.navy.mil Sat Sep 17 18:05:08 EDT 1994 Article: 336 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!relay!relay2!snorthc From: snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt - E81) Subject: prgamatic application of firearms Message-ID: <1994Sep16.141034.10896@relay.nswc.navy.mil> Sender: news@relay.nswc.navy.mil Reply-To: snorthc@.nswc.navy.mil Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:10:34 GMT Lines: 43 Why firearms in a survival situation? - harvesting food - protection The two applications above seem to cover the bases, yes? Harvesting food: .22 (scoped) excellent for much small game (rabbits, squirrels) and soooo much easier than trying to eat around shotgun pellets! - 12 gauge full choke shotgun is quite applicable for bringing down birds and sabot type slugs for deer. In the heavily wooded VA area, I have not found a whole lot of high powered rifle application, but have tested the converted to .308 Mauser as an excellent in brush high power rifle because it is so short. Protection: NOTE: I am not rambo, don't have any visions of myself being part of a modern day guerilla effort ... this is more of the family fleeing to a safe haven senario. .22 (Ruger 10-22) is excellent for making perps keep their heads down, stay in cover, delay pursuit. Bullets are cheap, reliable, and light weight, clips are available. For a family of four, a pair of 10-22s with five or so clips each will buy an awful lot of time. The high powered rifle can suppress any particularly obnoxious or agressive pursuing assets such as pickup trucks, or autos. The 12 gauge shotgun (00 or 000 buck) is quite useful in closer you can see the whites of their eyes distances. I do and have owned fairly many handguns, consider them generally less useful in both situations. They are also much more of a temptation to kids. FWIW: I am in the process of hanging up my survivalist hat, I just sold a full loaded gun vault. The whole deal is inconsistent with one preparing for Christian ministry. If you happen to live somewhere near Fredericksburg VA and need kevlar, gas masks, well drilling rigs, rural property with fruit trees, rambo knives, 4wl drives, the whole bit, drop me a line at snorthc@us.net. From london@.unc.edu Sat Sep 17 18:05:09 EDT 1994 Article: 337 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!!london From: london@.unc.edu (Larry London) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Algae culture Date: 17 Sep 1994 22:08:45 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 25 Message-ID: <35fpdd$152q@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: calzone.oit.unc.edu In article , Adam David wrote: >For a longterm siege or entrapment scenario, all food and possibly air >would have to be produced locally. Imagine an underground (physically) >community. How do you produce enough air and food? Electricity can be >generated by an underground stream and/or human power. Algae is good >for converting light and stale air into food and fresh air. Now back to >my main question: >How do you grow Algae at home? Where can the cultures be got from and >how to maintain them? Any good books/resources on the subject? >Adam David - Algae or other aquatic plants produced underground in non-potable water probably should be harvested for compost to be used in some quasi-hydroponic food production system rather than eaten. As I understand it most algae at all fit for human consumption is low grade food if not dangerous. The hyped-up super blue green algae often seen advertised is a good example. However, the Japanese have eaten various types of chlorella for years (chlorella spaghetti is one); it's grown in tanks in broad sunlight. Perhaps spirulina could be considered safe and beneficial as well. london@sunSITE.unc.edu From rschwarz@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu Sat Sep 17 21:31:30 EDT 1994 Article: 338 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!montego!edcen!edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu!rschwarz From: rschwarz@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu (Ron Schwarz) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: SKS = junk? (was Re: Suvivalism=guns????) Date: 17 Sep 1994 23:01:14 GMT Organization: Central Michigan University, Mt. Pleasant, MI, USA Lines: 57 Message-ID: <35fsfq$5p6@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu> References: <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> Reply-To: rschwarz@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu (Ron Schwarz) NNTP-Posting-Host: edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu In a previous article, woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) says: I don't want to start a my-gun-is-better-than-your-gun flame war, but: [...] > One word of advice: Don't get junk. I know a lot of people are now spending >$49.95 on an SKS and buying a tin of chinese ammo and now they feel they're ~~~~~~ Please tell me where these people are buying 49.95 SKSs. I know people who will line up and buy as many as they can at that price. If you add 100.00 to that price, it's considered a pretty good deal these days. (btw, I *never* saw any at 49.95) >good and ready. I don't think so. You get what you pay for, and it's also >going to be very difficult to re-supply something that shoots foreign calibers. 7.62x39 is the most-used caliber in the world. I read that there are more SKSs sold in *this* country than all other rifles put together. The supply of Chinese ammunition has been cut off, and the supply of Russian *may* be cut off -- but there is still Bulgarian, Yugoslavian, etc., as well as domestic manufacture. There is plenty of 7.62x39, and will be plenty -- and remember, lots of UN troops use weaponry that takes that caliber. >Even now, the import ban on Chinese ammo and firearms is already in effect, >and a similar deal is rumored to be in the works that will cut off Russian >supplies as well. So much for 7.62x39. Not to mention the corrosiveness and Corrosive ammunition can be dealt with by cleaning with soap and water. Also, it will last for an indefinite period of time. Finally, the SKS has a chromed bore, and is fairly impervious to corrosion. >the fact that it's tough to reload steel case ammo. The bottom line is, In a worst-case scenario, you won't be doing much reloading. >select your caliber wisely (.308 is my favorite, with .30-06 second because >of the AP availability) as well as your weapon. Remember, it may have to >last you for years without any parts replacement available, and it'll have >to last through mud and blood and beer with minimal amounts of maintenance. The SKS was designed to survive the harshest battlefield conditions, in the hands of poorly paid, poorly trained soldiers. It is not pretty, it has poor visual finish, but it is *very* well machined where it counts, and is rugged and reliable beyond belief. It is (still) relatively cheap, and accurate, and has served as an ideal militia rifle throughout the world for a long time. With domestic soft-point loads, it is excellent for medium sized game, roughly equivalent to 30-30. [...] -- From bglover@netcom.com Sat Sep 17 21:31:31 EDT 1994 Article: 339 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!bglover From: bglover@netcom.com (William Glover) Subject: Re: crystal radio Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <1994Sep16.030828.17688@cnsvax.uwec.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 23:03:19 GMT Lines: 11 cookliwj@cnsvax.uwec.edu wrote: : I have heard of crystal radio sets and would like to find out more about them, : anyone have any info? get the $7 Radio shack one and try it out. Simple and it works. No Batteries required, so it is always avaiable. ====================================================== "It is a crime Bill --- Lawmaking based on lies" bglover@netcom.com ====================================================== From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Sat Sep 17 21:31:32 EDT 1994 Article: 340 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Re: Best commercial first aid kit? In-Reply-To: J's message of 17 Sep 1994 06:15:27 GMT Message-ID: <1994Sep17.235931.3773@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics References: <1994Sep17.031154.26790@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> <35e1hv$ijl$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 23:59:31 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 27 In <35e1hv$ijl$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com> J writes: > > felt tip permanent marker (...I will mark the casualty's > > forhead with a 'T'...) > > What does this mean... a "T"? Sorry, it was late and I got a bit punchy... I was refering to the only real first-aid training I have; army... If you apply a tourniquet to a casualty, you are supposed to 'mark the casualty's forhead with a "T" ' to indicate the presence of the tourniquet. You might not be around when the medics arrive to tell them... -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu Sat Sep 17 21:31:33 EDT 1994 Article: 341 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!news From: BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) Subject: Re: SURVIVALIST GUN NUTS In-Reply-To: dsh@bga.com's message of 17 Sep 1994 12:17:49 -0500 Message-ID: <1994Sep18.000837.3984@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Sender: news@galileo.cc.rochester.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: urhep.pas.rochester.edu Organization: University of Rochester, High Energy Physics References: <35f8bt$mt3@lia.bga.com> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 00:08:37 GMT X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Lines: 29 In <35f8bt$mt3@lia.bga.com> dsh@bga.com writes: > Survivalists are just a bunch of whacked-out gun nuts who > fantasize about their "doomsday" scenarios while masturbating > into the barrels of their BB guns. Get a life, you freaks!! > I wondered how long it would take until we got out first of these... Maybe someone ought to archive and electronically frame it... Maybe we should put it in the FAQ as a piece of our history... sigh. -Bill VanRemmen, KA2WFJ billy@urhep.pas.rochester.edu URHEP::billy My opinions. No one in their right mind would claim otherwise. ============================================================================== "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient . . . the greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." Justice Louis Brandeis Olmstead vs. United States, United States Supreme Court, 1928 ============================================================================== From wilfil@rembrandt.its.rpi.edu Sun Sep 18 21:38:36 EDT 1994 Article: 342 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!gumby!yale!news2.near.net!usenet.elf.com!rpi!wilfil From: wilfil@rembrandt.its.rpi.edu (Lee S Wilfinger) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: SURVIVALIST GUN NUTS Followup-To: talk.politics.guns Date: 18 Sep 1994 01:45:02 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35g62u$k02@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <35f8bt$mt3@lia.bga.com> <1994Sep18.000837.3984@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rembrandt.its.rpi.edu BILLY@urhep.pas.rochester.edu (Bill VanRemmen) writes: >dsh@bga.com (Doug Holtsinger) writes: >> Survivalists are just a bunch of whacked-out gun nuts who >> fantasize about their "doomsday" scenarios while masturbating >> into the barrels of their BB guns. Get a life, you freaks!! >> >I wondered how long it would take until we got out first of these... Maybe >someone ought to archive and electronically frame it... Doug is just peeved because all of his "arguments" (and I use the term loosely) on t.p.g. have been trounced time and again. Further followups to Doug's rather lame piece of flamebait have been redirected. Note followups. -Lee From jakala@netcom.com Sun Sep 18 21:38:37 EDT 1994 Article: 343 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!jakala From: jakala@netcom.com (henry jakala) Subject: Re: You know you're in trouble when... Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35986m$hmv@lynx.unm.edu> <35a3ca$8a9@shemesh.tis.com> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 01:41:17 GMT Lines: 30 Rosaria Locasso (locasso@tis.com) wrote: : > Running steams are usually safe to drink from : > unlike stale ponds which I also know from experience can only make things : > worse. : I don't think it's safe to assume that running water is free of bacteria, : chemicals, etc. It looks cleaner and is more apetizing than stagnant water : which is often disgusting to look at. But as far as which is safer, I believe : it is random. : Rosaria Locasso i would say running water in general is much safer to drink than standing water. as for coming down with an intestinal bug you're not safe drinking any untreated water. the safest running water to drink is that far in the backcountry, at the headwaters of a stream, for instance the runoff from some high mountain snow field/glacier. the further your water source is from human/animal traffic the safer it is to drink. i must admit that i;ve on several occasions drunk untreated water in the Rockies of Colorado/Montana/Wyoming and have never come down with anything though warnings are liberally sprinkled in any literature you may read. just have to be careful about the source. -- jakala@netcom.com +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Yukon Cornelius is my hero ! | | because he knows the weaknesses of the Abominable Bubba ! | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | just wondering, Does the Abominable Bubba bounce ? | +----------------------------------------------------+ From jakala@netcom.com Sun Sep 18 21:38:37 EDT 1994 Article: 344 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uop!csus.edu!netcom.com!jakala From: jakala@netcom.com (henry jakala) Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 01:46:17 GMT Lines: 29 if i was going to the Pacific Northwest my thoughts would be along the lines of what's it gonna take to knock down a Saskwatch ??? are they friendly critters ??? Aaron Dial (bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu) wrote: : If I were headed into the Pacific Northwest forever and ever, : and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most : versatile platform? I'm not a weapons expert--just thought : this would be an interesting topic of conversation. : Aaron, Delaware, far, far away from the Pacific Northwest : -- : ******************************************************** : *** *** : *** AARON DIAL is bismarck@uniblab.ocis.temple.edu *** : *** *** : ******************************************************** -- jakala@netcom.com +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Yukon Cornelius is my hero ! | | because he knows the weaknesses of the Abominable Bubba ! | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | just wondering, Does the Abominable Bubba bounce ? | +----------------------------------------------------+ From jakala@netcom.com Sun Sep 18 21:38:38 EDT 1994 Article: 345 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!overload.lbl.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uop!csus.edu!netcom.com!jakala From: jakala@netcom.com (henry jakala) Subject: where to go ??? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 01:49:56 GMT Lines: 14 so if things got really nutty, where would be the best place to take refuge ? i vote for Montana, Big Sky country !!! preferably in the vicinity of Glacier National Park. -- jakala@netcom.com +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Yukon Cornelius is my hero ! | | because he knows the weaknesses of the Abominable Bubba ! | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | just wondering, Does the Abominable Bubba bounce ? | +----------------------------------------------------+ From woodman@rain.org Sun Sep 18 21:38:39 EDT 1994 Article: 346 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 17 Sep 1994 18:17:25 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> <35aqkt$rq6$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org J Moschell <72714.3044@CompuServe.COM> writes: >> and I were only taking one firearm--what would be the most >> versatile platform? >You might want to start with your ammo and work backwards. You >will need a gun that has bullets. Figure out the ammo part and >the gun decision will be made for you. For my money that would be the .30-06 which is everywhere. I'd probably push it out the social end of a Winchester Model 70. i agree with iron sights as backups since you can usually only drop a scope once. I'd also try to find one of the mdl. 70's built from about 1950 to late '60's. Take it to a good gunsmith for a check up. Then learn the gun from the manual up. Every piece. Every function. Shoot it a bunch, until it was and extension of my arms and shoulder. Then set up a quarterly proficiency course, bench, prone, sitting and offhand. (In the prone, don't forget the little piece of canvas under the muzzle. Don't leave a dust signature) Do this with every piece you own and it's like coming home to a good woman. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From atp@christa.unh.edu Sun Sep 18 21:38:39 EDT 1994 Article: 347 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!mozz.unh.edu!christa.unh.edu!atp From: atp@christa.unh.edu (Gospozhyn) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 18 Sep 1994 09:50:04 GMT Organization: University of New Hampshire - Durham, NH Lines: 19 Message-ID: <35h2gc$s93@mozz.unh.edu> References: <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35a4d5$grf@blkbox.blkbox.COM> <35akjg$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: christa.unh.edu In article <35akjg$d3@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> gbrennan@umich.edu (Gerald Brennan) writes: >George Guillory (guillory@blkbox.com) wrote: >: Well the request for a new newsgroup notice in news.newgroups said that >: the proposed group would discuss everything EXCEPT firearms >: (talk.politics.guns) or the ethics of "hoarding" food. You are incorrect. He said gun POLITICS will not be discussed, as that is covered in talk.politics.guns. Guns as they relate to survival are most certainly on topic. > But I'm not the esteemed moderator, and if the forum is censored >as to these topics, then that's the way it is... Note that there IS no moderator. As the group proposer (more or less) said, survivalism is about dealing with things and people you may find unpleasant, so if you need a moderator, you don't belong here. The more info provided, on ANY possibly relevent topic, the better off we all are. From woodman@rain.org Sun Sep 18 21:38:40 EDT 1994 Article: 348 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: FOOD: rec.food.preserving Date: 17 Sep 1994 20:36:18 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org Keywords: food This group, rec.food.preserving, is a very good source of information on Putting Food By, as the book on the topic was called. Besides a recent recipe for jalapeno jelly that was to die for, they deal with all methods of food preservation from solar dryers to pressure canning and probably beyond. From my week or three of lurking, one needs only to ask and this group will come up with an answer or a reference. _Putting Food By_ and the Ball Canning Manual belong in any long term retreater's bookshelf. Anybody know of any others? -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From woodman@rain.org Sun Sep 18 21:38:41 EDT 1994 Article: 349 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!rain.org!coyote!woodman From: woodman@rain.org (Woodman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: FOOD: Grain into Whiskey preservation method Date: 17 Sep 1994 20:46:45 -0700 Organization: RAIN Network Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.org Keywords: food grain whiskey In the old days before railroads and even good roads, farmers used to turn at least part of their grain crop into whiskey. As a matter of fact wasn't Shay's Rebellion about the governments attempts to control the production and distribution? In a long term scenario, whiskey would be as good as gold (maybe better) as a trade medium. Besides "...get you a copper kettle..." and a bunch of information about malting barley, I don't know a lot about this topic. Any Net Distillation Gurus out there? I know there are groups for beer and wine. I'm a fair to middling 'smith, both black work and guns. I'd trade for whiskey because after I'd put some by for medicinal purposes, I'd have something that stored a long time with high value. -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it. woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken From atp@christa.unh.edu Sun Sep 18 21:38:42 EDT 1994 Article: 350 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!mozz.unh.edu!christa.unh.edu!atp From: atp@christa.unh.edu (Gospozhyn) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: re: AR15 [was: Re: Suvivalism=guns????] Date: 18 Sep 1994 10:05:22 GMT Organization: University of New Hampshire - Durham, NH Lines: 30 Message-ID: <35h3d2$sdp@mozz.unh.edu> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: christa.unh.edu In article <1994Sep15.230855.20472@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> bw004b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (bucket O brains) writes: >I personaly like the M-16. What more could you ask for? I mean apart from >the necesity of keeping it very clean. It's light, very accurate, more >powerfull than you will ever need, and has excelent range. I can't see More powerful than you'll ever need? Do you just not know much about the subject, or do you intend to use it solely on squirrels and other little furry critters? Seriously, .223 is adequate for combat, but iffy for deer hunting (people who know say its possible, but deer tend to run a LONG way, making recovery difficult if not impossible, unless the shot is very good and the range fairly short.) Forget it for anything larger. And excellent range? Not really. >needing more than 550m of pin point accuracy, and 800m of area target 5.56mm is NOT an 800m cartridge. I don't know a whole lot about long range shooting, but I'm quite certain 5.56mm is not suitable for such ranges. Yes, the M16A2 sights are calibrated for that distance, but just because the bullett will get that far doesn't mean shooting at those distances is a good idea. Military sights are often overly optimistic, which is ok, because someone MIGHT need to try to hit something that far away, but you have to be realistic about its utility. For 800m, use a .308 or .30-06 (or .303 British, or... but those two are the most common/practial in the U.S.) For more info ask over in rec.guns, I'm sure they'll be able to tell you much more than I. From jdc@taligent.com Sun Sep 18 21:38:43 EDT 1994 Article: 351 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!taligent!kip-44.taligent.com!user From: jdc@taligent.com (Dave) Subject: [Surplus] Q&A source available Message-ID: Sender: usenet@taligent.com (More Bytes Than You Can Read) Organization: Banzai Institute Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 03:22:10 GMT Lines: 21 This is simple: I worked in a surplus store for a couple of years (before I went "high tech") and picked up a lot of info about the business. If you have a question you need answered, you can post in this group or email me at jdc@taligent.com and I'll do what I can to help. Please don't ask me where to buy things (unless it's an unusual item), or how much things cost- this varies a lot from place to place! Also I'd appreciate it if I wasn't the *first* place you came for information commonly available- I don't want to become Dave the Human FAQ, I just don't have the time. That stuff aside let me give you two examples (MRE's and jungle boots): Do you need to know how to find the manufacturing and 'expiration' dates on a case of MRE's? What exactly does that expiration date *really* mean anyway? How can you tell if a bag of MRE's has gone bad without opening it? Why should you consider buying more expensive GI jungle boots instead of commercial ones? What is the most common problem with the current GI black jungle boots? Quasi-lawyerish stuff: This service is offered because I enjoy helping people out. I'll gladly give you my 2¢ but I make no guarantees. I certainly don't know everything! Dave From ssyck@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu Sun Sep 18 21:38:43 EDT 1994 Article: 352 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!alpha2.csd.uwm.edu!ssyck From: ssyck@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Steven B Syck) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: [Surplus] Q&A source available Date: 18 Sep 1994 06:44:39 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 42 Message-ID: <35gnknINNlls@uwm.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.202 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Dave (jdc@taligent.com) wrote: : This is simple: I worked in a surplus store for a couple of years : (before I went "high tech") and picked up a lot of info about the : business. If you have a question you need answered, you can post in this : group or email me at jdc@taligent.com and I'll do what I can to help. : Please don't ask me where to buy things (unless it's an unusual item), : or how much things cost- this varies a lot from place to place! Also I'd : appreciate it if I wasn't the *first* place you came for information : commonly available- I don't want to become Dave the Human FAQ, I just : don't have the time. : That stuff aside let me give you two examples (MRE's and jungle boots): : Do you need to know how to find the manufacturing and 'expiration' dates : on a case of MRE's? What exactly does that expiration date *really* mean : anyway? How can you tell if a bag of MRE's has gone bad without opening : it? Why should you consider buying more expensive GI jungle boots instead : of commercial ones? What is the most common problem with the current GI : black jungle boots? : Dave I'd be interested in the MRE info that you have. I know for sure that I'm not the only one. Hopefully if you answer it on the group once, you won't have to answer it too many times in e-mail. As long as this group is new and starting out. I will volunteer to construct the following: The MRE FAQ - Not to say I know all things about MRE's because I don't, but I would gladly put together a FAQ of the net.wisdom on them. Anyway, if you have any MRE knowledge, or a question you would like to have answered about MRE's, send me a note with MRE in the subject line, and I'll get to work. Of course I have no connection with the MRE business, other than a customer and consumer. Am I the only one who thinks they are pretty tasty, or what? |- ssyck@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu -|- Don't Tread On Me -| |- a.k.a. Steve Syck at Univ. of WI-Milwaukee -|- -| From ssyck@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu Sun Sep 18 21:38:44 EDT 1994 Article: 353 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!alpha2.csd.uwm.edu!ssyck From: ssyck@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Steven B Syck) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: MRE FAQ (proposal) Date: 18 Sep 1994 06:54:23 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35go6vINNlls@uwm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.202 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Seeing as MRE's are a popular survival item, I hereby volunteer to construct the MRE FAQ. The MRE FAQ will attempt to cover as much as there is to know about MRE's. I am not claiming to be the expert on MRE's. If fact, I know little more than the average Joe about them, but I'm sure there are those who are knowledgeable in MRE facts. Content of the MRE FAQ: For now, just about anything there is to know about MRE's will do. If it grows too big, I suppose it could be split into MRE facts, MRE debate, etc.. So, please send you knowledge to me and I'll begin to compile the FAQ. I'll keep it myself and post it regularly, until the day comes that a FTP site is created I suppose. Also, please send questions that you would like answered about MRE's. Thanks for any contributions. You will be helpful in getting questions answered. |- ssyck@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu -|- Don't Tread On Me -| |- a.k.a. Steve Syck at Univ. of WI-Milwaukee -|- -| From robertb@comtch.iea.com Sun Sep 18 21:38:45 EDT 1994 Article: 354 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!krel.iea.com!comtch!robertb From: robertb@comtch.iea.com (Robert Blanchard) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: If Only 1 Weapon--Which?? Date: 18 Sep 1994 07:17:05 GMT Organization: CompuTech, Spokane WA Lines: 12 Message-ID: <35gphh$s5j@krel.iea.com> References: <35afoq$s8e@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: comtch.iea.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] henry jakala (jakala@netcom.com) wrote: : if i was going to the Pacific Northwest my thoughts would be along the : lines of what's it gonna take to knock down a Saskwatch ??? you mean like a good .375 holland & holland? Robert robertb@comtch.iea.com From robertb@comtch.iea.com Sun Sep 18 21:38:46 EDT 1994 Article: 355 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!krel.iea.com!comtch!robertb From: robertb@comtch.iea.com (Robert Blanchard) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: where to go ??? Date: 18 Sep 1994 07:21:09 GMT Organization: CompuTech, Spokane WA Lines: 15 Message-ID: <35gpp5$s5j@krel.iea.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: comtch.iea.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] henry jakala (jakala@netcom.com) wrote: : so if things got really nutty, where would be the best place to take : refuge ? : i vote for Montana, Big Sky country !!! preferably in the vicinity of : Glacier National Park. : I'd vote for anyplace that you are really familliar with. there is nothing worse than being in a strange place in a bad situation. Robert robertb@comtch.iea.com From debjohn@gate.net Sun Sep 18 21:38:46 EDT 1994 Article: 356 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!tequesta.gate.net!inca.gate.net!debjohn From: debjohn@gate.net (debjohn) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: SKS = junk? (was Re: Suvivalism=guns????) Date: 18 Sep 1994 14:18:49 GMT Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35hi89$11ds@tequesta.gate.net> References: <359hfj$gae@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <35fsfq$5p6@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: inca.gate.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Ron Schwarz (rschwarz@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu) wrote: : The SKS was designed to survive the harshest battlefield conditions, in : the hands of poorly paid, poorly trained soldiers. It is not pretty, : it has poor visual finish, but it is *very* well machined where it : counts, and is rugged and reliable beyond belief. It is (still) relatively : cheap, and accurate, and has served as an ideal militia rifle throughout : the world for a long time. I have to agree. The SKS is a great value for the money; one could, in fact, buy at least three or four SKS rifles for the price of one equivalent weapon (semi-auto, medium-power cartridge, 10 rounds or more in the magazine) in .223 or .308. Just think of the extra SKSs as spare parts kits that shoot :) The SKS isn't the best rifle in the world, but it is (still) a bargain. Preparing for life's less pleasant possibilities isn't cheap, and we all must decide how to spend our limited resources. Exotic assault rifles are fun, but they're not very useful if you don't have any money left over for ammo (or food, for that matter). Cheers. debjohn From algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Sun Sep 18 21:38:47 EDT 1994 Article: 357 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!att-out!oucsace!ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu!ALGEO From: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (the virtual valkyrie) Subject: Edible/medicinal plants Message-ID: Sender: news@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (news account) Reply-To: algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Organization: Ohio University Computing & Technology Services Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 14:01:22 GMT Lines: 20 Some folks have been asking about the identification of edible and medicinal plants. While there is no substitute for a knowledgable teacher, there is an excellent series of books one of which every survivalist should have. _Peterson's_Field_Guide_to_Medicinal_Plants_ is divided by region (my volume is for eastern and central North America, for instance), and has color photographs as well as line drawings and clear descriptions. The rare plants which are poisonous to humans are clearly identified. No, I don't work for Houghton Mifflin. I'm just passing along a reliable source. -- Melissa Algeo algeo@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu algeo@monolith.mit.edu From rsopicki@pro-amber.cts.com Sun Sep 18 21:38:48 EDT 1994 Article: 358 of misc.survivalism Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!crash!pro-amber!rsopicki From: rsopicki@pro-amber.cts.com (Randy Sopicki) Subject: Re: FOR SALE: MRE'S Organization: ProLine [pro-amber] -- Spring Valley, Ca. Date: Sun, 18 Sep 94 07:59:51 PDT Message-ID: References: Lines: 20 In mbothe@netcom.com (Michael Bothe) writes: >jeffrey_p_wendt@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov (Jeffrey P Wendt) writes: > >>I will be getting some cases in very soon, and they will be priced as follows: > >>Case of 12 meals without heaters: $35.00 >> with heaters: $40.00 > >>Drop me a line if interested. > >>Jeff > >I tried, it bounced back. e-mail me, mbothe@netcom.com > I too bounced, could you repost your address or e-mail me. Randy From walker@starbase.neosoft.com Sun Sep 18 21:38:49 EDT 1994 Article: 359 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!Starbase.NeoSoft.COM!walker From: walker@starbase.neosoft.com (Richard Walker) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: What is this newsgroup going to t.. Date: 18 Sep 1994 16:29:29 GMT Organization: NeoSoft Internet Services +1 713 684 5969 Lines: 43 Message-ID: <35hpt9$6uf@uuneo.neosoft.com> References: <3585rv$826@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> <358f8t$jb4$2@mhade.inhouse.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: starbase.neosoft.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] : I use the "Storm Theory". Prepare for a *BIG* storm, say a : hurricane. What do you need for that kind of storm. You need a : lot of different things for that situation. Now, you people in : the non-hurricane areas can relate to tornados, blizzards, etc. : It is the same for these situations as well. I think you might want to elaborate this a bit further, the survival situations will be much different based on whether or not you loose your dwelling structure, and on how big the smushed area is. If a hurricane leveled my apartment complex for instance, I'd be likely to simply put on a pack with water & food for a couple of days and just abandon the area completely. (hurricanes loose their oomph very rapidly going inland) The idea of staying and risking your life for stuff that is mostly mangled anyway doesn't seem to clever to me. It may be hard to bear sometimes, but financial concerns have to be disregarded when your life is in danger. On the other hand, if your structure is intact, as long as you have water and rice, you'll live. Having a couple $6 25lb bags of rice somewhere is not a bad idea. Having a bottle of iodine solution to sterilize water with is also a good idea. In 30 days you might be suffering from an unbalanced diet, but you'll still be alive, add some vitamins to the mix and you probably won't even have the diet problem. Self-defense seems a minimal concern, if the structure is intact, you have an enormous advantage over looters; if the structure is destroyed, you'd be a moron to risk your life defending it. : Now, take it one step further... A hurricane in which you and : your family must survive 10 days without food or water...a : hurricane where you and your neighbors will confront looters on a : daily basis for those ten days. A struggle for life itself. One gallon of water per person, per day. 50lbs of uncooked rice. Boring, yes. We aren't talking comfort, just survival. Dont' forget to make sure you can cook the rice; though I suppose you could just soak it for a few hours, I haven't tried that. A multi-fuel stove and a few gallons of gasoline seem a better bet to me. Last hurricane we had here that we lost power for a few days on, I used that method to good effect. Self defense, see above. Don't live in a state where the looters have more rights than the property owner. Make sure you are willing to drop the hammer on someone who breaks into your house/apartment. From walker@starbase.neosoft.com Sun Sep 18 21:38:49 EDT 1994 Article: 360 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!Starbase.NeoSoft.COM!walker From: walker@starbase.neosoft.com (Richard Walker) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: Suvivalism=guns???? Date: 18 Sep 1994 16:50:02 GMT Organization: NeoSoft Internet Services +1 713 684 5969 Lines: 6 Distribution: world Message-ID: <35hr3q$6uf@uuneo.neosoft.com> References: <358rks$g07@s-cwis.unomaha.edu> <359iob$hel@news.bu.edu> <35ai1j$j63@buckaroo.ics.uci.edu> <17SEP199410085343@pavo.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: starbase.neosoft.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] : the plans for automatic weapons but don't know anything about tanning : hides or preserving food (as another poster alreasy said...) I would *love* some information on how to actually get useable leather or fur from various critters. How is a dog/coyote's pelt different from say a rabbits? Or deer for that matter... From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Sun Sep 18 21:38:50 EDT 1994 Article: 361 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: SURVIVALIST GUN NUTS Date: 18 Sep 1994 14:37:24 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <35i1d4$9o7@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: <35f8bt$mt3@lia.bga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article <35f8bt$mt3@lia.bga.com>, Douglas Holtsinger wrote: >Survivalists are just a bunch of whacked-out gun nuts who >fantasize about their "doomsday" scenarios while masturbating >into the barrels of their BB guns. Get a life, you freaks!! > Actually, I use a 12 guage Mossberg intruder. It's got a larger diameter then my BB gun... ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Sun Sep 18 21:38:51 EDT 1994 Article: 362 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: where to go ??? Date: 18 Sep 1994 14:45:40 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 25 Message-ID: <35i1sk$jp1@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu In article , henry jakala wrote: > > > so if things got really nutty, where would be the best place to take >refuge ? > > > i vote for Montana, Big Sky country !!! preferably in the vicinity of >Glacier National Park. > I vote for Mars. Realy big sky country! Preferrably in the vicinity of Olympus Mons. You get as far away from enemy forces and starving barbarian hordes as you can. Hold up as best you can, and if the opportunity arises you might even consider a little offensive harrasing action. ^TW -- Thomas A. Woolman, Citizen of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth email: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu NRA / 2nd Amendment Task Force - My opinions are my personal property, not a loan from Big Brother. From woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Sun Sep 18 21:38:51 EDT 1994 Article: 363 of misc.survivalism Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail From: woolmata@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Thomas Woolman) Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Subject: Re: FOOD: Grain into Whiskey preservation method Date: 18 Sep 1994 14:54:11 -0400 Organization: Drexel University Lines: 283 Message-ID: <35i2cj$sr8@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Keywords: food grain whiskey In article , Woodman wrote: >In the old days before railroads and even good roads, farmers used to >turn at least part of their grain crop into whiskey. As a matter of fact >wasn't Shay's Rebellion about the governments attempts to control the >production and distribution? > >In a long term scenario, whiskey would be as good as gold (maybe better) >as a trade medium. Besides "...get you a copper kettle..." and a bunch of >information about malting barley, I don't know a lot about this topic. >Any Net Distillation Gurus out there? I know there are groups for beer >and wine. I'm a fair to middling 'smith, both black work and guns. I'd >trade for whiskey because after I'd put some by for medicinal purposes, >I'd have something that stored a long time with high value. > >-- >-- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally >Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement > | of positive truth and every man who makes it. >woodman@coyote.rain.org | H.L. Mencken Similarly, you can always make wine ("moonshine"?) out of dandelions and other natural fauna and herbs. From what I understand, it's pretty tasty stuff and easily made. Here's a file I have on it, which may be of some use to potential post-apocalyptic Brewmesiters... :) Herbal Wines Nicholas Morcinek One of the many pleasures of a life in the country is the abundance of free food and the makings of fine drink. Sitting here at my desk, glass of Dandelion wine in hand, the golden glow of the flickering firelight passing through the pale amber nectar drifts my mind back to the Spring and the picking and preparation that led to this magic moment. Anyone who has ever made their own wine or beer will understand my feelings but nowadays of course, wine nearly always refers to a Chateau produced store bought liquid, made from grapes grown in some exotic far away land. However until very recently, many other varieties of fruit and even flowers were used by enterprising brewers. Dandelion, Red Clover, Rosemary and Rose flowers were all used and all have their own distinctive nose, flavour and effect Herbs were used for their traditional medicinal values, the wine-making process being me rely the method of preservation. Dandelion for the digestion and liver Cowslip to help with sleep Clover flowers as a tonic and mild euphoriant These herb wines are very simply made, with minimal amounts of time and equipment and once tried and successfully imbibed, they can become an integral part of your routine and life style. After all, what better way is there to take your medicine than in a glass of fragrant ambrosia? Hoping that I've caught your interest, (excuse me while I pour myself an other glass!), perhaps you'd like to give flower wines a try. Here to help you on your way is my own tried, and very well tested, recipe. Ingredients: Two quarts of Red Clover or Dandelion flower-heads. (Or any other type of edible/medicinal flower. Good ones to try are Calendula, Rose, Violet, Elderflowers, etc; Use your own judgement, the recipe is good for almost any combination of flowers and herbs). One Kilo of sugar & 3 lemons. Four ounces un-coated raisins or sultanas. One packet Champagne type wine yeast. You will also need some equipment, most of which can be found in the kitchen, viz: One, two or three gallon container, (stainless steel,earthenware, glass or un-chipped enamel). A one gallon glass flagon,Fermentation lock, campden table and syphon tube. (These can be obtained quite inexpensively from any home-brewing store). Now for the...Method: Pick the flowers on a sunny morning after the dew has dried. They are best picked after several days of full sun but Mother Nature is not always so obliging. Choose only the best flowers and discard all green parts at the base of the flowers. (They will make the wine bitter). Collect two full quarts of flowers for each gallon you wish to make. (This is a good job to give to the kids on a sunny Sunday afternoon. You won't see them for at least an hour.) It is very important that you collect only from areas that have not been sprayed with garden or agricultural pest sprays. Avoid all roadside flowers as they contain high levels of pollutants. It is important before starting in the kitchen to ensure that all the implements and containers used are scrupulously clean. Make up a sterilizing solution using the campden tablets, (follow the instructions on the pack) and then thoroughly rinse and clean everything you intend to use. This is the most important operation in home wine making, get it right and your wines turnout perfectly every time, screw-up and your friends will find all sorts of reasons for why they can't pop over to watch the game, join the barbecue, etc; etc; Anyway, we are digressing. Back to the wine. Clean the fl