-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:49:54 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Cc: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net>, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nlAt 6:19 PM 7/12/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >At 07:09 PM 7/12/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote: >>Hi Ben,>>I saw your spacepro.htm page, maybe you should add the formula's withthe fill-out form, it makes it easier for people to see what is actually >calculated.>Sure. I was actually planning on doing that tonite or tomorrow anyway! I'm missing something? I thought we agreed to not use the Java versionssince they weren't usable by the general audience. Or are these just foryour practice not for the LIT site.>>I wonder if translations in other languages are useful at all, if someonewho only speaks Spanish would comment, I (and probably most othermembers) would not be able to respond. Besides that, I would like to beable to read "my own" writings. Also I belief that it is long time forpeople to learn a common language. I don't really mind if that language isEnglish, Polish, French or whatever, it just happens to be that English isthe most common language.In a way science pretty well has. If I remember proberly, virtually allmajor scientific pubs are translated and reviewed in english. >Refer to my foreign languages letter.>>If you are creating parts in different languages, that multiple groupswill be created, that have few contacts with each other. >Possibly...>But I really don't think that would happen. It would just allow foreignspeaking people to actually read our site, and maybe we would attractsome real genius from another country! Haven't you guys ever read.. um.. ohman, I can't remember the name! It might be "Eon", but I don't think that'sthe book I'm talking about anyway. oh well >BenBen, do NOT translate my sections of LIT. I have enough trouble withpeople misenterpreting what I say. I don't want the hassel of peoplemisinterpreting what others have enterpreted me to say. This would beespecially frustrating since comments would come to me in languages Icouldn't understabd or respond to.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:55:37 -0500To: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: BadE-mail ALERT!Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.comAt 3:22 AM 7/13/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:>>At 8:52 PM 7/11/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >>>Stephen Landry <MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU> wrote: >>>>no more messages sent here ok,,,tell allthe other list members >>>Okay, will do. sorry about that.>>>Hey guys, check your cc lists, and your address books. It looks like wevebeen mail bombing someone who is not interested. >>>please remove MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU from this list. >>>Kevin>>Wounder how he got Mike Lineskis account? >Think we oughta check with the sysop to verify that the account wasn'thacked? >KevinMight try calling Mike. If I remember.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: Philip Bakelaar<pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"	 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>Cc: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net>, "KellySt@aol.com"	 <KellySt@aol.com>,"stevev@efn.org" <stevev@efn.org>,"jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>,"hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Cc:"rddesign@wolfenet.com" <rddesign@wolfenet.com>, "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"DotarSojat@aol.com" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "neill@foda.math.usu.edu"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "101765.2200@compuserve.com"<101765.2200@compuserve.com>, "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> Subject: RE:Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:34:23 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>Ben, do NOT translate my sections of LIT. I have enough trouble withpeople misenterpreting what I say. I don't want the hassel of peoplemisinterpreting what others have enterpreted me to say. This would beespecially frustrating since comments would come to me in languages Icouldn't understabd or respond to.I have to agree. Unless translations are done by a native speaker (andsometimeseven then), I'm wary of them. I'm sure you've all received one of thosejunk-emailsat one time or another with a list of all the product and sloganmistranslations intoother languages....And, of course, upon reading even a correctly translated document(especiallya correct one), readers would assume they could email the author in thatlanguage,as Kelly says...-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:26:18 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: RE: foreign mirrorsCc: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net>, "KellySt@aol.com" <KellySt@aol.com>, "stevev@efn.org" <stevev@efn.org>,"jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>,"hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> At 09:34 AM 7/15/96 -0400, David Levine wrote: >>Ben, do NOT translate my sections of LIT. I have enough trouble withpeople misenterpreting what I say. I don't want the hassel of peoplemisinterpreting what others have enterpreted me to say. This would beespecially frustrating since comments would come to me in languages Icouldn't understabd or respond to.>I have to agree. Unless translations are done by a native speaker (andsometimes>even then), I'm wary of them. I'm sure you've all received one of thosejunk-emails>at one time or another with a list of all the product and sloganmistranslations into>other languages....>And, of course, upon reading even a correctly translated document(especially>a correct one), readers would assume they could email the author in thatlanguage,>as Kelly says...Yup. Thats kewl. I started out doing it for practice anyway. :-)-----------------------------------------------------Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 03:20:47 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Cc: ZenonKulpa <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@EFN.ORG,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,101765.2200@CompuServe.COM, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,pbakelaar@exit109.comSubject: Ads and flakesKelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:(note: I made some one-letter changes in Kelly's replies to improve thereadability. Edited Lines contain an "#" instead of a ">" If I mis-representwhat you meant Kelly, please let me know. If this bothers you, I'll stop) >>If all Zenon can afford is 20 zlotys, Then that's fine. The money is notthe main>>issue here. I fully expect LIT to pull in it's fair share of traffic. ># It certainly seems to get a good amount of traffic compared to otherspasce interest boards. The Millenial socyity board is ranked amoung thetop %5 and its gotten 11,000 hits this year. We've been getting about athousand# a month and our sites practically dead. >>>Kelly writes:>>>>Actually I like the idea of adds. Besides the money aspect, it gives usa more succesful and profesional image. No one sponcers or advertises onfools pages. So if we can get a couple sponcership icons from crediblegroups (aerospace or space related especially) it would give us morecredibility. Not critical, but a plus.>>>Yes, I think it is possibly true ->>>if the ads were from the credible groups. >>>-- Zenon>>Credible or not, as long as the check is good. :) Kevin>I don't know. If their flaky or weird we might want to think about it.Unless its a big check. ;)The ads I was thinking of running would be standard Banner GIF's. 400 x 40pixels seems to be the consensus among many sites. Since not too muchinformation can be displayed in such an ad, they are not usually veryflakey. As to whether we look bad or not, I think most people wouldunderstand that they are just ads and the views are not endorsed by us.As to price, I think the best way to charge for the ads is on a per-placement basis at $0.01 each. Since each page can have it's own ad (Itdoesn't have to, just could) our 1000 hits could easily become $30-$40/month in revenue. Allowing URLy-Bird.com to place just 1 banner adon the LIT Site would allow much of the cost of the site to be offset. Iwould say that the limit to ads should be 1 per page. Each ad-space wouldshow a different ad, according to rotation (assuming we can get more thanone advertiser ;) check out: http://www.vtourist.com/ads/ for an idea ofhow another company is handling this. The CGI Scripts to handle the ads should be fairly simple, and straightforeward. Kevin-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:51:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender:rddesign@wolfenet.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) From:rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) Subject: Re:Cc: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com >At 6:19 PM 7/12/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >>At 07:09 PM 7/12/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote: >>>Hi Ben,>>>I saw your spacepro.htm page, maybe you should add the formula's withthe fill-out form, it makes it easier for people to see what is actually >>calculated.>>Sure. I was actually planning on doing that tonite or tomorrow anyway! Kelly---I think most folks have graphics and a Java won't hurt to be putin....it just shows up as a black square or such........new web brousers arehitting the streets daily that handle java.........I say we go for it...I knowsome "purests"stick with what they know but they are becoming theminority.....Netscape 2.0 or 3.0 are common....if you are a MicrosoftExplorer user...tough luck .....they are too little too late......It's like usingO/S2...good luck....I vote for best and latest........I have been concidering doing something ofmyown for LIT and it will have java...>I'm missing something? I thought we agreed to not use the Java versionssince they weren't usable by the general audience. Or are these just foryour practice not for the LIT site.>>>I wonder if translations in other languages are useful at all, if someonewho only speaks Spanish would comment, I (and probably most othermembers) would not be able to respond. Besides that, I would like to beable to read "my own" writings. Also I belief that it is long time forpeople to learn a common language. I don't really mind if that language isEnglish, Polish, French or whatever, it just happens to be that English isthe most common language.>In a way science pretty well has. If I remember proberly, virtually allmajor scientific pubs are translated and reviewed in english. >>Refer to my foreign languages letter.>>>If you are creating parts in different languages, that multiple groupswill be created, that have few contacts with each other. >>Possibly...>>But I really don't think that would happen. It would just allow foreignspeaking people to actually read our site, and maybe we would attractsome real genius from another country! Haven't you guys ever read.. um.. ohman, I can't remember the name! It might be "Eon", but I don't think that'sthe book I'm talking about anyway. oh well >>Ben>Ben, do NOT translate my sections of LIT. I have enough trouble withpeople misenterpreting what I say. I don't want the hassel of peoplemisinterpreting what others have enterpreted me to say. This would beespecially frustrating since comments would come to me in languages Icouldn't understabd or respond to.>Kelly>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>Sr. Systems Engineer>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company>(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) >---------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit RD Designs Home Pageat:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 01:30:43 GMTX-Sender: Lessa@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Mime-Version: 1.0To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com From: Rex& Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: RE:Kelly wrote:>P.S.>By the way. If someone wants to try to write up Tims relatavisticcalculations as CGI aps that would be usefull. Kelly why don't you just get a browser that supports Javascript? I'm not sure if I like others to fumble with my creations, I'd need to besure they would be working correct and that I was able to change things.Remember that if something is wrong or does not work, that people willcome to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allowCGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that aresmall. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right thereDavid? (I didn't try it yet)I won't force people getting newer browsers, and usually try to makeeverything accessable for older browsers, but I think if people want more,they should also do a little effort themselves in getting it. I wonder hownon-fill-out-form-browsers are able to sent some output to a server toget back the answer. Well I could imagine that one would type an URL with?+5+and+zoom at the end, but that wouldn't make things easier. So areCGI-scripts a solution here? Should I add ASCII-images because maybesome browser don't show gif or jpg-images? Really, in one year everybrowser has Java-script in it. Timothy-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:04:58 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net>, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nlFrom: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: RE:At 01:30 AM 7/16/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote: >Kelly wrote:>>P.S.>>By the way. If someone wants to try to write up Tims relatavisticcalculations as CGI aps that would be usefull. >Kelly why don't you just get a browser that supports Javascript? >I'm not sure if I like others to fumble with my creations, I'd need to besure they would be working correct and that I was able to change things.Remember that if something is wrong or does not work, that people willcome to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allowCGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that aresmall. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right thereDavid? (I didn't try it yet)>I won't force people getting newer browsers, and usually try to makeeverything accessable for older browsers, but I think if people want more,they should also do a little effort themselves in getting it. I wonder hownon-fill-out-form-browsers are able to sent some output to a server toget back the answer. Well I could imagine that one would type an URL with?+5+and+zoom at the end, but that wouldn't make things easier. So areCGI-scripts a solution here? Should I add ASCII-images because maybesome browser don't show gif or jpg-images? Really, in one year everybrowser has Java-script in it. >TimothyVery, very good point, Tim! :)-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:32:39 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net> Cc: KellySt@aol.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,pbakelaar@exit109.com Subject: Re: CGI scriptingRex & Timothy wrote:<snip>>to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that aresmall. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right thereDavid? (I didn't try it yet)urly-bird.com will have cgi scripting capabilities. Kevin-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 14:29:16 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.comSubject: Re: Ocean stuff>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Mon Jul 15 20:15:59 1996 >Zenon>Do I remember correctly that you helped work up a web page on oceancities? Where are they, and what other ocean stuff do you recomend? The Atlantis Project (Oceania) is at:http://oceania.org/It seems defunct since some time, but some interesting stuff can be foundthere.I am not particularly interested in "Ocean Stuff", so I do not haveanythingof more interest here. You may also look at The Millenial FoundationInfoGuide: http://www.millennial.org/~jwills/InfoGuide See also at Yahoo - they are probably the best for such a broad-themesearches.-- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:45:43 -0500To: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com At 5:51 PM 7/15/96, Ric & Denisse Hedman wrote: >>At 6:19 PM 7/12/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >>>At 07:09 PM 7/12/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote: >>>>Hi Ben,>>>>I saw your spacepro.htm page, maybe you should add the formula's withthe fill-out form, it makes it easier for people to see what is actually >>>calculated.>>>Sure. I was actually planning on doing that tonite or tomorrow anyway! >Kelly---I think most folks have graphics and a Java won't hurt to be putin....it just shows up as a black square or such........new web brousers arehitting the streets daily that handle java.........I say we go for it...I knowsome "purests"stick with what they know but they are becoming theminority.....Netscape 2.0 or 3.0 are common....if you are a MicrosoftExplorer user...tough luck .....they are too little too late......It's like usingO/S2...good luck....>I vote for best and latest........I have been concidering doing something ofmyown for LIT and it will have java...Given that most current Web users and most of our probable audiencewouldn't have Java yet. I'ld hold off using it for anything important. Adecorative item is fine, but not something like the computer centerfunctions, where not having the cutting edge software would make thefunctions useless. It make no sence to dump commonly accessablefunctions, for newer, flashier, usually non accessable functions. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:53:35 -0500To: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: RE:Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com At 8:30 PM 7/15/96, Rex & Timothy wrote: >Kelly wrote:>>P.S.>>By the way. If someone wants to try to write up Tims relatavisticcalculations as CGI aps that would be usefull. >Kelly why don't you just get a browser that supports Javascript? I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not to useit for anything I submit to L.I.T. Since I was interested in adding thefeatures in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course). Thatwould take a non Java version.>I'm not sure if I like others to fumble with my creations, I'd need to besure they would be working correct and that I was able to change things.Remember that if something is wrong or does not work, that people willcome to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allowCGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that aresmall. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right thereDavid? (I didn't try it yet)>I won't force people getting newer browsers, and usually try to makeeverything accessable for older browsers, but I think if people want more,they should also do a little effort themselves in getting it. I wonder hownon-fill-out-form-browsers are able to sent some output to a server toget back the answer. Well I could imagine that one would type an URL with?+5+and+zoom at the end, but that wouldn't make things easier. So areCGI-scripts a solution here? Should I add ASCII-images because maybesome browser don't show gif or jpg-images? Really, in one year everybrowser has Java-script in it. >TimothyIn a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.(Java server?) In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't haveit.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:55:54 -0500To: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: CGIscriptingCc: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net>, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,pbakelaar@exit109.com At 10:32 PM 7/15/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Rex & Timothy wrote:><snip>>>to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that aresmall. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right thereDavid? (I didn't try it yet)>urly-bird.com will have cgi scripting capabilities. >KevinSo does SunSite of course, but a better question is what are thedifferences in capabilities between Sunsite and URL-Bird? I'E. what arethe advantages and disadvantages of one vs the other technically? Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:57:49 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Ocean stuffCc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com At 2:29 PM 7/16/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Mon Jul 15 20:15:59 1996 >>Zenon>>Do I remember correctly that you helped work up a web page on oceancities? Where are they, and what other ocean stuff do you recomend? >The Atlantis Project (Oceania) is at:>http://oceania.org/>It seems defunct since some time, but some interesting stuff can befound there.>I am not particularly interested in "Ocean Stuff", so I do not haveanythingof more interest here. You may also look at The Millenial FoundationInfoGuide: >http://www.millennial.org/~jwills/InfoGuide >See also at Yahoo - they are probably the best for such a broad-themesearches.>-- ZenonAh, when I remembered you had helped put together the floating city thingI thought you might have some recomendations. No problem I'll searchYahoo or something when I get the time.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:53:35 -0500To: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: RE:Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com At 8:30 PM 7/15/96, Rex & Timothy wrote: >Kelly wrote:>>P.S.>>By the way. If someone wants to try to write up Tims relatavisticcalculations as CGI aps that would be usefull. >Kelly why don't you just get a browser that supports Javascript? I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not to useit for anything I submit to L.I.T. Since I was interested in adding thefeatures in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course). Thatwould take a non Java version.>I'm not sure if I like others to fumble with my creations, I'd need to besure they would be working correct and that I was able to change things.Remember that if something is wrong or does not work, that people willcome to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allowCGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that aresmall. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right thereDavid? (I didn't try it yet)>I won't force people getting newer browsers, and usually try to makeeverything accessable for older browsers, but I think if people want more,they should also do a little effort themselves in getting it. I wonder hownon-fill-out-form-browsers are able to sent some output to a server toget back the answer. Well I could imagine that one would type an URL with?+5+and+zoom at the end, but that wouldn't make things easier. So areCGI-scripts a solution here? Should I add ASCII-images because maybesome browser don't show gif or jpg-images? Really, in one year everybrowser has Java-script in it. >TimothyIn a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.(Java server?) In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't haveit.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:55:54 -0500To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: CGIscriptingCc: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net>, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,pbakelaar@exit109.com At 10:32 PM 7/15/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Rex & Timothy wrote:><snip>>>to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that aresmall. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right thereDavid? (I didn't try it yet)>urly-bird.com will have cgi scripting capabilities. >KevinSo does SunSite of course, but a better question is what are thedifferences in capabilities between Sunsite and URL-Bird? I'E. what arethe advantages and disadvantages of one vs the other technically? Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:57:49 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Ocean stuffCc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com At 2:29 PM 7/16/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Mon Jul 15 20:15:59 1996 >>Zenon>>Do I remember correctly that you helped work up a web page on oceancities? Where are they, and what other ocean stuff do you recomend? >The Atlantis Project (Oceania) is at:>http://oceania.org/>It seems defunct since some time, but some interesting stuff can befound there.>I am not particularly interested in "Ocean Stuff", so I do not haveanythingof more interest here. You may also look at The Millenial FoundationInfoGuide: >http://www.millennial.org/~jwills/InfoGuide >See also at Yahoo - they are probably the best for such a broad-themesearches.>-- ZenonAh, when I remembered you had helped put together the floating city thingI thought you might have some recomendations. No problem I'll searchYahoo or something when I get the time.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 15:10:01 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.comSubject: Re: Ocean stuff>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 16 15:02:21 1996 >Ah, when I remembered you had helped put together the floating citything I thought you might have some recomendations. No problem I'llsearch Yahoo or something when I get the time.I was interested in the socio-political aspects, not in the oceanic("technical") part of the project. -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:30:21 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Ocean stuffCc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com At 3:10 PM 7/16/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 16 15:02:21 1996 >>Ah, when I remembered you had helped put together the floating citything I thought you might have some recomendations. No problem I'llsearch Yahoo or something when I get the time.>I was interested in the socio-political aspects, not in the oceanic("technical") part of the project. >-- ZenonHey any related topic with a good web link is fine by me. Frankly I can't see what practical reason their would be to create afloating city in mid ocean anyway (I have some debates about this withpeople on the Millenium project). But it is a interesting topic, and Davewanted a Marine sciences and development section. So I'm looking forinteresting links to populate it.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:30:21 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Ocean stuffCc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com At 3:10 PM 7/16/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 16 15:02:21 1996 >>Ah, when I remembered you had helped put together the floating citything I thought you might have some recomendations. No problem I'llsearch Yahoo or something when I get the time.>I was interested in the socio-political aspects, not in the oceanic("technical") part of the project. >-- ZenonHey any related topic with a good web link is fine by me. Frankly I can't see what practical reason their would be to create afloating city in mid ocean anyway (I have some debates about this withpeople on the Millenium project). But it is a interesting topic, and Davewanted a Marine sciences and development section. So I'm looking forinteresting links to populate it.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:25:38 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:RE:Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" <KellySt@aol.com>, "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"		 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,"stevev@efn.org" <stevev@efn.org>,"jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>,"hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> At 10:12 AM 7/16/96, David Levine wrote: >>to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that aresmall. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right thereDavid? (I didn't try it yet)>My computer can do both CGI and ISAPI. However, I'd have to do somefunky stuff to set it up to use CGI. And, remember, the current plan(although>we are considering some others) is to eventually put this stuff onSunSITE, where CGI scripting is the norm. SunSITE just moved to Apache,by the way. Apache?Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl"<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"	 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" <KellySt@aol.com>, "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"	 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,"T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "stevev@efn.org"<stevev@efn.org>,"jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl> Cc: "rddesign@wolfenet.com"<rddesign@wolfenet.com>, "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"DotarSojat@aol.com" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>,"101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,"neill@foda.math.usu.edu" <neill@foda.math.usu.edu> Cc:"pbakelaar@exit109.com" <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: RE: OceanstuffDate: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:43:22 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>Frankly I can't see what practical reason their would be to create afloating city in mid ocean anyway (I have some debates about this withpeople on the Millenium project). But it is a interesting topic, and Davewanted a Marine sciences and development section. So I'm looking forinteresting links to populate it.Heh - don't get me started on this one... I can give you a LOT of reasons.Remember, you're talking to an ocean engineer by education.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" <KellySt@aol.com>,"stevev@efn.org" <stevev@efn.org>, "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>,"hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Subject:RE: RE:Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:47:21 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>Apache?>KellyThe Internet Movie Database, the MIT AI Lab, Hotwired, and SunSITE(among others) run on it. It's web server software... the most popular - itruns on 36%of all web servers.http://www.apache.org/ for more information.-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:52:01 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:Ocean stuffCc: "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"		 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,"KellySt@aol.com" <KellySt@aol.com>,"hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"		 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,"T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "stevev@efn.org"<stevev@efn.org>,"jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu> At 10:43 AM 7/16/96, David Levine wrote: >>Frankly I can't see what practical reason their would be to create afloating city in mid ocean anyway (I have some debates about this withpeople on the Millenium project). But it is a interesting topic, and Davewanted a Marine sciences and development section. So I'm looking forinteresting links to populate it.>Heh - don't get me started on this one... I can give you a LOT of reasons.Remember, you're talking to an ocean engineer by education. Oh, forgot I hit reply all. ;)Actually I'ld be interested in your reasons. Both out of curiosity and forresearch for a future novel.Hey a faq sheet would be good to!KellyP.S.Web links?---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:13:43 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> From: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>Subject: RE: Ocean stuffCc: "KellySt@aol.com" <KellySt@aol.com>, "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,"T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "stevev@efn.org"<stevev@efn.org>,"jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl> At 10:43 AM 7/16/96 -0400, David Levine wrote: >>Frankly I can't see what practical reason their would be to create afloating city in mid ocean anyway (I have some debates about this withpeople on the Millenium project). But it is a interesting topic, and Davewanted a Marine sciences and development section. So I'm looking forinteresting links to populate it.>Heh - don't get me started on this one... I can give you a LOT of reasons.Remember, you're talking to an ocean engineer by education. Wow! I read that book about a year ago and I learned alot from it! AndDavid, you are an ocean engineer by education? I would be interested toknow what that entails (the education, the job market). I imagine its not 2good, but still I would like to know...-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:13:43 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> From: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>Subject: RE: Ocean stuffCc: "KellySt@aol.com" <KellySt@aol.com>, "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,"T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "stevev@efn.org"<stevev@efn.org>,"jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl> At 10:43 AM 7/16/96 -0400, David Levine wrote: >>Frankly I can't see what practical reason their would be to create afloating city in mid ocean anyway (I have some debates about this withpeople on the Millenium project). But it is a interesting topic, and Davewanted a Marine sciences and development section. So I'm looking forinteresting links to populate it.>Heh - don't get me started on this one... I can give you a LOT of reasons.Remember, you're talking to an ocean engineer by education. Wow! I read that book about a year ago and I learned alot from it! AndDavid, you are an ocean engineer by education? I would be interested toknow what that entails (the education, the job market). I imagine its not 2good, but still I would like to know...-----------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:16:21 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: RE: Web pageAt 10:15 AM 7/17/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >Ben,>How far are you on the web pages?>Could you send me the URL's? (Yes I lost them.) >What name do you prefer and what perminent E-mail address do you have?(I'm puting them on the bottom of each page.) >I figured I'ld start murging things to gether and putint the same headersand stuff on them.Kelly, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. ??? My version of the LIT Pages is at http://www.exit109.com/~pbakelaar/lit,if that's what you wanted to know.Um.. I like Ben, and EMail is <pbakelaar@exit109.com>. As for what is up there, I still want to some updating, but the only thingnot really finished is the Universe FAQ. And of course, the member info. Isthat what you mean? I'm sorry, but I've been busy the last couple of days.:)Ben-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:45:33 -0400From: KellySt@aol.comTo: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSubject: Fwd: Brian is BACK!---------------------Forwarded message:From:	mkshp@ionet.net (Michael Shipp)To:	KellyST@aol.comCC:	hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, david@interworld.com Date: 96-07-1700:20:42 EDT>From Brian V. MansurLIT Member # something or otherStarship Design ProjectI'm back! Yea, I can tell you're all wetting your pants with excitement :)Don't worry, there won't be any more avalanches of e-mail for a while.That's because I'm working out of a friend's computer and so the e-mailhas his name, of course. By the way, whoever gets this, could you pleaseforward it to the other members of the discussion group and I need youcurrent e-mail adresses again. Also, if anyone has time, I'd love to befilled in on what has been going on in the discussion group these last fewmonths. Sorry for the inconvenience.Remember that Argosy design that I promised. Still in the works. Rightnow I have 14 or so pages worth of text. Don't let that make you think itsreally worth anything, but then you never know. I'm now toying withchanging the name of the paper because the paper describes more than justa starship. It describes an entire interstellar transportation system that Ithink from henceforth shall be known as the Tradewinds. The starshipremains the Argosy-class and now there is an unmanned probe/seedercomponent called the Pathfinder (an overused name that I'll change ifsomething more inspiring occurs to me).Basically, you guys are going to hate the whole set up. I'm saying thatbecause it takes about two hundred years to get the Tradewinds up andrunning from its 1996 conception date (just in time for the 23rd century).The Design Overview is as follows: The Tradeswinds are basically two power/maser arrays set up at theorigin and destinations of the manned starship. For propulsion, thestarship uses the photon pressure of the electron masers bouncing off of ahundreds of kilometers wide ultra-thin sail. By the way, electron laserswere described in the July or August Discovery Magazine: read all aboutthem. They are still hard to make but they are 50% efficient or so.Because the Tradewinds assume a technological presence at thedestination, the mission of exploration is secondary. The new goal here isinterstellar colonization. I know that isn't what the LIT charter calls for.But as I explain in the Tradewinds paper, none of the propulsion designsdetailed in the Starflight Handbook have any hope of carrying a crew toanother starsystem in their life-time, to say nothing about bringing themhome. What the designs in the Handbook can do is send a robotic Pathfinderseeder probe of a few thousand tons. It will set upan Automated Robotic Civilization (ARC) that will eventually grow into amaser array that can stop the manned Argosy-class starships that ferrycolonists from Sol. Nifty huh? It may be a slow thing to establish, but ithas a real chance of working. Yea, I know you guys want a fast ship, fastmission, fast food starship that will get us to Tau Ceti and back in 22years Earth time. But as I explain in the Tradewinds paper, I really thinkthis idea is our best hope. As said, most of what you have just read is old news. But when you finallyget the Tradewinds paper, it be DETAILED old news. This is good, I think ifwe are trying to give some basic starship designs to future generationsthat can refine them and use their spanking new technology to make theminto something that they will fly. By the way. I'll only be able to answer whenever I can get back to myfriend's terminal. So don't expect quick answers. I'll try to hurry up andfinish the Tradewinds paper. I have two more days off work which is alittle bit of time. Finally, I go back to school in about six weeks, so that'sall the time I have until Christmas. Sorry, but I just won't have the timefor Starship Design in school. I didn't earlier this year when I first joinedthe discussion group but, hea, at least it was fun.Live long through relativistic space travel. In Christ,Mikehttp://www-origins.uoknor.edu/~mshipp/welcome.htm-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:28:43 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE: WebpageCc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 6:16 PM 7/17/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >At 10:15 AM 7/17/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>Ben,>>How far are you on the web pages?>>Could you send me the URL's? (Yes I lost them.) >>What name do you prefer and what perminent E-mail address do youhave? (I'm puting them on the bottom of each page.) >>I figured I'ld start murging things to gether and putint the same headersand stuff on them.>Kelly, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. ??? >My version of the LIT Pages is athttp://www.exit109.com/~pbakelaar/lit, if that's what you wanted toknow.>Um.. I like Ben, and EMail is <pbakelaar@exit109.com>. >As for what is up there, I still want to some updating, but the only thingnot really finished is the Universe FAQ. And of course, the member info. Isthat what you mean? I'm sorry, but I've been busy the last couple of days.:)>BenNo problem about being busy.I was specifically woundering about the Member page and the referencematerial web page. I figured if you had finished them I could put myheaders and stuff on them and load them in the central 'development copy'.I'll take what you have and work with it when I get a chance. As to the address I just wanted something that wouldn't expire in a couplemonths. That way if someone mails to the author 'you' They'll still be ableto get you.I'll let you know how far I get.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:34:11 -0500To: "L. Parker" <lparker@gnt.net>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:A NASA starship study?Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Looks like its real, or at least being proposed seriously. He's mailing froma JSC space station mail center, so I guess he's not a flake janitor orsomething. (Hes at least an profesional acredited flake.) His stuff seemed kind of edge city, but a few long range concept studiesarn't a bad idea.As I get more I'll forward it.KellyAt 7:23 PM 7/17/96, L. Parker wrote:>Kelly,>What is all this? Is this for real? What avenues are they exploring?Please FYI me on anything you get.>At 12:31 PM 7/16/96 -0500, you wrote:>>>>The Breakthrough Propulsion Physics group ...MUCH DELETED...>>>Al Holt >Thanks,>Lee>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +	+>+ Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread... ++	+>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:20:15 -0500To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,mkshp@ionet.net (Brian V. Mansur)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Fwd: Brian is BACK!Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comHi Brian,Welcome back, for a while.I sent another message with attached file of the last couples of months ofmessages. For a brief summary.Kevin is offering to rehost LIT onto his new server (hes trying to start aweb service busness). He's hoping to make lit self funding through on lineadvertizing, but we should offer to help with some start up funds. So farlittle comment from anyone.I'm still working to refurb the old LIT site, and hope to have everything alldressed up and ready to upload in a months or so. So please send what youhave of your Argosey or tradwinds system. Which name do you prefer? I stumbled across a NASA group also trying to speculate on possiblestarship designs.Various discusions of starship stuff.I pretty well finished the Explorer design, Tim and others helped withsome more detailed fuel mass numbers and other tech stuff. Given theequipment it could get up to a 1/3rd c cruise. More interesting I came upwith a new idea I'm calling fuel-sail.The fusion driven Explorer was limited by the need to accelerate anddecelerate with on board fuel, or accelerate close to Sol where the fuellauncher can refuel the ship as it consumes acceleration fuel. Themicrowave driven ships can accelerate, but not slow down. I thought ofmixing the two.I use Lithium as the fusion reactor fuel, but to accelerate out of sol Ispread it out into a huge microwave sail (lithium is a structural metal).Since the vast bulk of the weight is spread out in the sail, its a moreefficent sail system. As soon as the ship approaches cruise speed; the sailis pulled back in, melted and cast into a heavy cylindrical fuel plug in thefrount of the ship. As the ship approaches the starsystem it mounts thefusion motors on the frount of the fuel and starts the deceleration burn.As fuel is cut out of the fuel slug and burned. The ships hab and systemsection will be shifted forward as the fuel is consumed from underneathit. Since it doesn't need to accelerate and decelerate as rapidly as anExplorer class. It can have a higher fuel ratio, and decelerate from highercruise speeds. Possibly as high as 40%+ of light speed!Can't think of much else in detail, so on to your letter. >--------------------->>From Brian V. Mansur>LIT Member # something or other>Starship Design Project>I'm back! Yea, I can tell you're all wetting your pants with excitement :)Don't worry, there won't be any more avalanches of e-mail for a while.That's because I'm working out of a friend's computer and so the e-mailhas his name, of course. By the way, whoever gets this, could you pleaseforward it to the other members of the discussion group and I need youcurrent e-mail adresses again. Also, if anyone has time, I'd love to befilled in on what has been going on in the discussion group these last fewmonths. Sorry for the inconvenience.All the other current members are in the mailing list on this letter. Sinceyou've gone some have left, and we gained one or two. You new guys knowwho you are, so introduce yourself! >Remember that Argosy design that I promised. Still in the works. Rightnow I have 14 or so pages worth of text. Don't let that make you think itsreally worth anything, but then you never know. I'm now toying withchanging the name of the paper because the paper describes more than justa starship. It describes an entire interstellar transportation system that Ithink from henceforth shall be known as the Tradewinds. The starshipremains the Argosy-class and now there is an unmanned probe/seedercomponent called the Pathfinder (an overused name that I'll change ifsomething more inspiring occurs to me).Send it and I'll load it in the web site. Rough or not its more involved thena lot of concepts I've seen published. We can add a large banor listing it asin work, and help you work up the details. >Basically, you guys are going to hate the whole set up. I'm saying thatbecause it takes about two hundred years to get the Tradewinds up andrunning from its 1996 conception date (just in time for the 23rd century).The Design Overview is as follows: This does sound strange. Whats the point? Microwave sail technology isgoing to look pretty antiquated in a century. By two I'ld expect somethingfar more exotic. Sounds like it couldn't be implemented in time for it to beof any value? Then again, maybe we can figure out a way to speed up theimplementation time. I can't see anything that would take 200 years toimplement.>The Tradeswinds are basically two power/maser arrays set up at theorigin and destinations of the manned starship. For propulsion, thestarship uses the photon pressure of the electron masers bouncing off of ahundreds of kilometers wide ultra-thin sail. By the way, electron laserswere described in the July or August Discovery Magazine: read all aboutthem. They are still hard to make but they are 50% efficient or so.>Because the Tradewinds assume a technological presence at thedestination, the mission of exploration is secondary. The new goal here isinterstellar colonization. I know that isn't what the LIT charter calls for.But as I explain in the Tradewinds paper, none of the propulsion designsdetailed in the Starflight Handbook have any hope of carrying a crew toanother starsystem in their life-time, to say nothing about bringing themhome. What the designs in the Handbook can do is send a robotic Pathfinderseeder probe of a few thousand tons. It will set up>an Automated Robotic Civilization (ARC) that will eventually grow into amaser array that can stop the manned Argosy-class starships that ferrycolonists from Sol. Nifty huh? It may be a slow thing to establish, but ithas a real chance of working. Yea, I know you guys want a fast ship, fastmission, fast food starship that will get us to Tau Ceti and back in 22years Earth time. But as I explain in the Tradewinds paper, I really thinkthis idea is our best hope. I'ld agree that near lightspeed craft are unrealistic, but why 200years?Also the reason we wern't talking much about a colonization concept, iswe couldn't think of any way to make a colony self suficent, or a realistreason of why people would do, much less patfor, a colony. >As said, most of what you have just read is old news. But when youfinally get the Tradewinds paper, it be DETAILED old news. This is good, Ithink if we are trying to give some basic starship designs to futuregenerations that can refine them and use their spanking new technology tomake them into something that they will fly. Send what you can now. Rough concepts out now, are better then polishedideas in a year.>By the way. I'll only be able to answer whenever I can get back to myfriend's terminal. So don't expect quick answers. I'll try to hurry up andfinish the Tradewinds paper. I have two more days off work which is alittle bit of time. Finally, I go back to school in about six weeks, so that'sall the time I have until Christmas. Sorry, but I just won't have the timefor Starship Design in school. I didn't earlier this year when I first joinedthe discussion group but, hea, at least it was fun.>Live long through relativistic space travel. >In Christ,>Mike>http://www-origins.uoknor.edu/~mshipp/welcome.htm Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 17:00:12 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 18 16:46:12 1996 Date: Thu, 18 Jul1996 09:20:15 -0500>To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, >T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,mkshp@ionet.net (Brian V. Mansur)>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject:Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!>All the other current members are in the mailing list on this letter. Sinceyou've gone some have left, and we gained one or two. You new guys knowwho you are, so introduce yourself! Hey, hey - where did you lose our latest member, Ben Bakelaar? Add him:<pbakelaar@exit109.com> too!And you stil have in your list above the address of a guy who complainedof getting irrelevant mail and asked to drop him out some time ago:<MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU>. -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:25:58 GMTX-Sender: Lessa@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Mime-Version: 1.0To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com From: Rex& Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Still JavascriptKelly wrote:>I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not touse it for anything I submit to L.I.T. Since I was interested in adding thefeatures in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course). Thatwould take a non Java version.Of course it works, I tested it myself, there may be a few small bugs in it,but the main thing works.>In a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.(Java server?) In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't haveit.The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if itwould be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities).-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 18:40:34 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net>, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nlFrom: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: StillJavascriptAt 10:25 PM 7/18/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote: >Kelly wrote:>>I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not touse it for anything I submit to L.I.T. Since I was interested in adding thefeatures in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course). Thatwould take a non Java version.>Of course it works, I tested it myself, there may be a few small bugs init, but the main thing works.>>In a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.(Java server?) In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't haveit.>The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if itwould be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities). If anyone actually keeps up with their computer news, they would knowthat all the major companies (encompassing IBM, Microsoft, Apple and/orMacintosh, and all the other big names) have a deal with Sun whereJavaChips will be installed in all new releases starting at a future date. (Ican't remember what.) Now, even though companies are bound to makemistakes, I don't think that the biggest names in computing are going toinvest millions in a "passing fad". Then again, I could be wrong, but Isincerely doubt that, given the evidence on my side. :)DOES anyone here keep up with computer news? I mean, I know you guysare busy and all, but lemme know if you like want me to tell you oranything. I realize most of you use computers every day, but stil.. its justan offer.Ben-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 18:41:51 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net From: Philip Bakelaar<pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!At 05:00 PM 7/18/96 +0200, Zenon Kulpa wrote: >>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 18 16:46:12 1996 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:20:15 -0500>>To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, >>T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,mkshp@ionet.net (Brian V. Mansur)>>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject:Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!>>All the other current members are in the mailing list on this letter.Since you've gone some have left, and we gained one or two. You new guysknow who you are, so introduce yourself! >Hey, hey - where did you lose our latest member, Ben Bakelaar? Add him:<pbakelaar@exit109.com> too!>And you stil have in your list above the address of a guy who complainedof getting irrelevant mail and asked to drop him out some time ago:<MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU>. >-- ZenonThanx for sticking up for me, Zenon! At least I know I have *one* friendamong the ranks. :) (jk, guys!)BenX-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:31:52 -0500To: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: StillJavascriptCc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com At 5:25 PM 7/18/96, Rex & Timothy wrote: >Kelly wrote:>>I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not touse it for anything I submit to L.I.T. Since I was interested in adding thefeatures in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course). Thatwould take a non Java version.>Of course it works, I tested it myself, there may be a few small bugs init, but the main thing works.Such inocence. ;) Software always has bugs, and you have been known tomake mistakes Tim.>>In a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.(Java server?) In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't haveit.>The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if itwould be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities). People used to say the same thing about DOS, and P.C.s are much moremature then the web. At this point nothings so basic about the web thatwe can be sure about it.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:33:59 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: StillJavascriptCc: Rex & Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net>, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nlAt 6:40 PM 7/18/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >At 10:25 PM 7/18/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote: >>Kelly wrote:>>>I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not touse it for anything I submit to L.I.T. Since I was interested in adding thefeatures in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course). Thatwould take a non Java version.>>Of course it works, I tested it myself, there may be a few small bugs init, but the main thing works.>>>In a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hotthing. (Java server?) In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don'thave it.>>The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if itwould be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities). >If anyone actually keeps up with their computer news, they would knowthat all the major companies (encompassing IBM, Microsoft, Apple and/orMacintosh, and all the other big names) have a deal with Sun whereJavaChips will be installed in all new releases starting at a future date. (Ican't remember what.) Now, even though companies are bound to makemistakes, I don't think that the biggest names in computing are going toinvest millions in a "passing fad". Then again, I could be wrong, but Isincerely doubt that, given the evidence on my side. :)>DOES anyone here keep up with computer news? I mean, I know you guysare busy and all, but lemme know if you like want me to tell you oranything. I realize most of you use computers every day, but stil.. its justan offer.>BenI am a senior computer systems engineer, but since I moved to Indianamost of my journals have stoped coming regularly. (Maybe its a sign?) Soyeah if you have an tidbits pass them on.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:57:51 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Cc: Rex &Timothy <Lessa@worldnet.att.net>, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,pbakelaar@exit109.com Subject: Re: Still JavascriptKelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:>At 5:25 PM 7/18/96, Rex & Timothy wrote: >>The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if itwould be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities). >People used to say the same thing about DOS, and P.C.s are much moremature then the web. At this point nothings so basic about the web thatwe can be sure about it.>KellyHmm, I wonder. First of all, all DOS programs still work on any PC. Second,Windows 95 (the latest operating system from microsoft) still has a DOSbase it's hidden and concealed, but it's there just the same. I suppose thesame thing will happen to Java, it will be old and worn out, but it willstill be compatable with Netscape 5.0--Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say: "Youcan't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the samethief, So what does it really matter? This time I'm voting Libertarian.Harry Browne for President. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ (800) 682-1776-----------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 16:31:32 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: New WWW linkAdd to LIT links the following one:http://www.obspm.fr/departement/darc/planets/encycl.html ExtrasolarPlanets Encyclopaedia-- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:41:10 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:New WWW linkCc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Will do.You know between our two lists we are burying LIT's lib in usefull weblinks! :)KellyAt 4:31 PM 7/19/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>Add to LIT links the following one:>http://www.obspm.fr/departement/darc/planets/encycl.html ExtrasolarPlanets Encyclopaedia>-- Zenon---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:21:22 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Cc: ZenonKulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netSubject: Re: New WWW link>Zenon Wrote:>>Add to LIT links the following one:>>http://www.obspm.fr/departement/darc/planets/encycl.html ExtrasolarPlanets Encyclopaedia>>-- ZenonI followed the link you gave Zenon, and found a more graphics intensivepage.http://www.empire.net/~whatmoug/Extrasolar/extrasolar_visions.html It takes a while to load, but I think it's worth it. it gives a betterdescription of the pervailing conditions on each planet. Perhaps we couldswitch our target to one of the Jupiter sized worlds orbiting in a waterzone. a high-speed flyby mission could return a lot of information. we'dknow the Orbital inclination, so we could do a polar fly-over.I wonder what such a probe would reveal about earth? Assuming a .4 C fly-by and a favorable position (ie earth is seen from a distance equal to 60 to120 degrees of earth's orbit.) would a standard set of spectrographicinstruments be able to detect Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide? Would a wideband radio reciever be able to detect our television or satellitetransmissions? Would a good night-side photo show the rivers and seas oflight that populate the north-american continet? In other words, if some other world sent a probe here,what is theminimum sensitivity required for it to return useful data? (ie. that thethird rock from the sun is a life-bearing world) Follow-up question, do wehave the required technology? --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:52:08 -0500To: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: NewWWW linkCc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netAt 10:21 AM 7/19/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >>Zenon Wrote:>>>Add to LIT links the following one:>>>http://www.obspm.fr/departement/darc/planets/encycl.htmlExtrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia>>>-- Zenon>I followed the link you gave Zenon, and found a more graphics intensivepage.http://www.empire.net/~whatmoug/Extrasolar/extrasolar_visions.html >It takes a while to load, but I think it's worth it. it gives a betterdescription>of the pervailing conditions on each planet. Perhaps we could switch ourtarget>to one of the Jupiter sized worlds orbiting in a water zone. a high-speedflyby>mission could return a lot of information. we'd know the Orbitalinclination, so we>could do a polar fly-over.>I wonder what such a probe would reveal about earth? Assuming a .4 Cfly-by and a>favorable position (ie earth is seen from a distance equal to 60 to 120degrees of>earth's orbit.) would a standard set of spectrographic instruments be ableto detect>Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide? Would a wide band radio reciever be able todetect our>television or satellite transmissions? Would a good night-side photoshow the rivers and seas of light that populate the north-americancontinet? >In other words, if some other world sent a probe here,what is theminimum sensitivity>required for it to return useful data? (ie. that the third rock from the sunis a>life-bearing world) Follow-up question, do we have the requiredtechnology? >-->Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html I know we don't show up that well in the day visually. But with a bigenough scope you can resolve down to any res you want. We have designs(well concepts) that could resolve objects down to a couple meters from afew light years away. The geometric structures of our roads, fields, andagraculture would be a dead give away. The geometric pattern of citystreet lights, and trafic flows, at night would be an incredibly obvioushint!!In the radio and EM bands we are VERY bright. We outshine the sun in someEM bands. Personally as an ET I'ld be a little suspicious of a planet wherewhole continents were syncronized with a 60 cycle per secound hum (I.E.our power grid). I have no idea what the transmition rating for the powergrid is, but I'm sure you could detect it a few light years away. The question isn't could they see us, but how closely would they belooking. We have no official programs looking, and few private ones. Thenagain, we'ld be pretty hard to overlook at close range! Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:31:14 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Cc: ZenonKulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Earth's intrinsic glow.Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:>At 10:21 AM 7/19/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >>I wonder what such a probe would reveal about earth? Assuming a .4 Cfly-by and a>>favorable position (ie earth is seen from a distance equal to 60 to 120degrees of>>earth's orbit.) would a standard set of spectrographic instruments beable to detect>>Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide? Would a wide band radio reciever be able todetect our>>television or satellite transmissions? Would a good night-side photoshow the rivers and seas of light that populate the north-americancontinet? >>In other words, if some other world sent a probe here,what is theminimum sensitivity>>required for it to return useful data? (ie. that the third rock from thesun is a>>life-bearing world) Follow-up question, do we have the requiredtechnology? >>-->>Kevin "Tex" Houston http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html >I know we don't show up that well in the day visually. But with a bigenough scope you can resolve down to any res you want. We have designs(well concepts) that could resolve objects down to a couple meters from afew light years away. The geometric structures of our roads, fields, and Okay, but could you do it on the fly (at .4C) and keep it small enough to bean easy sale to the politicians (you've seen how horrendously expensiveinterstellar flight can be.) and could you have a wide enough field of visionto detecty something you didn't know was there to start with >agraculture would be a dead give away. The geometric pattern of citystreet lights, and trafic flows, at night would be an incredibly obvioushint!!So what's the smallest cammera you could get away with to spot thisfrom 1 AU away?>In the radio and EM bands we are VERY bright. We outshine the sun in someEM bands. Personally as an ET I'ld be a little suspicious of a planet But that's only because the sun doesn't shine in those bands. how far awayis our power grid visible? I'd think spillage from a sattelite uplink wouldbe more visible than leakage from a power grid over light years, if onlydue to there being a tighter beam from the up-link. >where whole continents were syncronized with a 60 cycle per secoundhum (I.E. our power grid). I have no idea what the transmition rating forthe power grid is, but I'm sure you could detect it a few light years away. I don't know about that, you might be able to chalk it up to some strangerock formation that's re-radiating sunlight with some kind of storageability to account for nighttime transmissions. Kind of like glow-in thedark minerals that can stay lit for hours after the light is out. >The question isn't could they see us, but how closely would they belooking. We have no official programs looking, and few private ones. Thenagain, we'ld be pretty hard to overlook at close range! The real question is "how big a system do we need to spot non-intelligentlife in a system we know nothing about at a decent fraction of the speedof light." --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say: "Youcan't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the samethief, So what does it really matter? This time I'm voting Libertarian.Harry Browne for President. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ (800) 682-1776-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 13:08:24 -0500To: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Earth's intrinsic glow.Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net At 11:31 AM 7/19/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:>>At 10:21 AM 7/19/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >>>I wonder what such a probe would reveal about earth? Assuming a .4 Cfly-by and a>>>favorable position (ie earth is seen from a distance equal to 60 to 120degrees of>>>earth's orbit.) would a standard set of spectrographic instruments beable to detect>>>Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide? Would a wide band radio reciever be able todetect our>>>television or satellite transmissions? Would a good night-side photo >>show the>>>rivers and seas of light that populate the north-american continet? >>>In other words, if some other world sent a probe here,what is theminimum sensitivity>>>required for it to return useful data? (ie. that the third rock from thesun is a>>>life-bearing world) Follow-up question, do we have the requiredtechnology? >>>-->>>Kevin "Tex" Houston http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html >>I know we don't show up that well in the day visually. But with a bigenough scope you can resolve down to any res you want. We have designs(well concepts) that could resolve objects down to a couple meters from afew light years away. The geometric structures of our roads, fields, and >Okay, but could you do it on the fly (at .4C) and keep it small enough to bean easy sale to the politicians (you've seen how horrendously expensiveinterstellar flight can be.) and could you have a wide enough field of visionto detecty something you didn't know was there to start with You miss the point. You could do it from here, to anywhere you'ld want togo to at .4c. They are currently trying to propose it to our gov for NASA toimplement. (No news as of yet. Concepts probably still being worked out.)>>agraculture would be a dead give away. The geometric pattern of citystreet lights, and trafic flows, at night would be an incredibly obvioushint!!>So what's the smallest cammera you could get away with to spot thisfrom 1 AU away?Don't know, but to spot it from 10 light years it would need an efectiveapiture of a couple hundred miles or so. >>In the radio and EM bands we are VERY bright. We outshine the sun insome EM bands. Personally as an ET I'ld be a little suspicious of a planet >But that's only because the sun doesn't shine in those bands. how far awayis our power grid visible? I'd think spillage from a sattelite uplink wouldbe more visible than leakage from a power grid over light years, if onlydue to there being a tighter beam from the up-link. That only helps if your in the narrower beam. Don't know about distences.Probably at least a couple hundred light years. (Your taking about a lot ofpower.)>>where whole continents were syncronized with a 60 cycle per secoundhum (I.E. our power grid). I have no idea what the transmition rating forthe power grid is, but I'm sure you could detect it a few light years away. >I don't know about that, you might be able to chalk it up to some strangerock formation that's re-radiating sunlight with some kind of storageability to account for nighttime transmissions. Kind of like glow-in thedark minerals that can stay lit for hours after the light is out. You probably would, but you'ld also want to aim a scope at us to make sure. >>The question isn't could they see us, but how closely would they belooking. We have no official programs looking, and few private ones. Thenagain, we'ld be pretty hard to overlook at close range! >The real question is "how big a system do we need to spot non-intelligentlife in a system we know nothing about at a decent fraction of the speedof light." Non-intelegent? From here, with a big enough scope (couple hundred miles)and time to watch trends no problem. There, in orbit, with a couple meterlens no problem. Blowing through at .4c, BIG problem. I'm not sure it couldbe done. Well I suppose you could rig out a wire mesh a few hundred milesacross with scopes on the mesh, and watch it as you approach. And againlater after you left. You can't look at close aproach to anything because itwould be sliding to the side of your view. Assuming you wern't going tocrash into it of course. ;)>-->Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html >Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say: "Youcan't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the samethief, So what does it really matter? This time I'm voting Libertarian.Harry Browne for President. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ (800) 682-1776 Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 10:33:07 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From: Philip Bakelaar<pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Space questions...Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net I have a question... isn't one of the big issues in the space world how in theusa there are all safety restrictions placed on space flight, and so thatmakes it impossible for space development and research to be done byprivate corporations (or at least non-profitable.. maybe not impossible)? i have more questions if i am right.thanxben