-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 07:59:01 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: Spacequestions...Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net At 10:33 AM 7/21/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >I have a question... isn't one of the big issues in the space world how inthe usa there are all safety restrictions placed on space flight, and sothat makes it impossible for space development and research to be done byprivate corporations (or at least non-profitable.. maybe not impossible)? >i have more questions if i am right.>thanx>benCurrently their are legal restrictions. For example the FAA hasn't figuredout how to lisence a space craft, and the feds haven't set liabilitylimitations for space craft accidents like they did for aircraft. So youcould wind up being unable to get a launch permit, or get sued to death byhungry lawyers if you have an accident.Past that the United Nations has been tring to claim space as theirproperty, and refuse to let others profit in space. The U.S. statedepartment has traditionally not cared much, but usually have been forcedby public presure (usually the L-5 society) to not sign. For example at themoment the state department is reluctant to bother protesting a U.N.treaty being worked on that would effectivly outlaw nuclear poer systemin space. That ofcourse would eliminate the possibility of missions pastMars, or manned missions past the moon. Or lunar bases for that mater. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:21:30 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: Space questions...Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net At 07:59 AM 7/22/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >Currently their are legal restrictions. For example the FAA hasn't figuredout how to lisence a space craft, and the feds haven't set liabilitylimitations for space craft accidents like they did for aircraft. So youcould wind up being unable to get a launch permit, or get sued to death byhungry lawyers if you have an accident.>Past that the United Nations has been tring to claim space as theirproperty, and refuse to let others profit in space. The U.S. statedepartment has traditionally not cared much, but usually have been forcedby public presure (usually the L-5 society) to not sign. For example at themoment the state department is reluctant to bother protesting a U.N.treaty being worked on that would effectivly outlaw nuclear poer systemin space. That ofcourse would eliminate the possibility of missions pastMars, or manned missions past the moon. Or lunar bases for that mater. >KellyThe UN claims space is *theirs*?!?!?! OH my GOD, i can't believe that. Imean, how could they think that? How could the US not care? How couldthe UN...? Guys, fill me in here. Is the US govmn't *really* stupid, or is theUN *really* stupid, or is the public *really* stupid.. (actually, as far asI'm concerned, they all are, but im asking who's fault is it that this is happening?)OK.. well, i won't complain much, because I could complain ALOT aboutthis. My next question is... (hypothetical situation) what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who doesnthave any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able to builda spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island? (disregardmaterial needs for now, im talking about the law)-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 08:42:20 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: Spacequestions...Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net At 9:21 AM 7/22/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >At 07:59 AM 7/22/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>Currently their are legal restrictions. For example the FAA hasn'tfigured out how to lisence a space craft, and the feds haven't set liabilitylimitations for space craft accidents like they did for aircraft. So youcould wind up being unable to get a launch permit, or get sued to death byhungry lawyers if you have an accident.>>Past that the United Nations has been tring to claim space as theirproperty, and refuse to let others profit in space. The U.S. statedepartment has traditionally not cared much, but usually have been forcedby public presure (usually the L-5 society) to not sign. For example at themoment the state department is reluctant to bother protesting a U.N.treaty being worked on that would effectivly outlaw nuclear poer systemin space. That ofcourse would eliminate the possibility of missions pastMars, or manned missions past the moon. Or lunar bases for that mater. >>Kelly>The UN claims space is *theirs*?!?!?! OH my GOD, i can't believe that. Imean, how could they think that? How could the US not care? How couldthe UN...? Guys, fill me in here. Is the US govmn't *really* stupid, or is theUN *really* stupid, or is the public *really* stupid.. (actually, as far asI'm concerned, they all are, but im asking who's >fault is it that this is happening?)The U.N. is largely composed of third world nations (their are more ofthem then us) who generally have a socialist attitude. They largly draftedwhats called the space treaty (which the U.S. has refused to sign, thouClinton did make some moves to reverse that policy). Said treaty roughlystates that space is the common heritage of all mankind, and as a commonheritage no one person, group, or state can own or take profit from anypart of any planet, moon, orbit, or inter planetary transfer orbit. Anyattemp to use space must be done by an international body that distributesall profits equaly to all nations regardless of the participation in space bythat state.This is similar to the language of the Law of the sea treaty we did sign,which promptly ended all attempts at deap sea minnig or colonization. Why doesn't the state department care? They are politicians. They dealwith interactions between countries. Not anoying internationals oversomething as trivial (to them) as space, seems foolish. After all, we don'tdo much in space (yet) and its of no immediate economic impact. So to atreaty crafter, its obviously less important then something really big, likeinternational relations.>OK.. well, i won't complain much, because I could complain ALOT aboutthis. My next question is... (hypothetical situation) >what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who doesnthave any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able to builda spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island? (disregardmaterial needs for now, im talking about the law) Legally the U.S. has never signed the treaty so its not a problem. If theyhad signed, and wished to enforce it, they could prevent U.S. firms fromexporting high tech launcher systems to the non conforming country youwanted to launch out of.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: 'Rex & Timothy'<Lessa@worldnet.att.net>, "'KellySt@aol.com'"	 <KellySt@aol.com>,"'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"	 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,"'stevev@efn.org'" <stevev@efn.org>,"'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> To:"'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, "'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" <rddesign@wolfenet.com>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@compuserve.com'"<101765.2200@compuserve.com> To:"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 	<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, 'Philip Bakelaar'	 <pbakelaar@exit109.com>Subject: RE: Still JavascriptDate: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:13:04 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>DOES anyone here keep up with computer news? I mean, I know you guysare>busy and all, but lemme know if you like want me to tell you or anything.I realize most of you use computers every day, but stil.. its just an offer.I'm part of that annoying computer/internet/java/www/etc industry. Yuk! David-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Philip Bakelaar'	 <pbakelaar@exit109.com>Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston' <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Zenon Kulpa'<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'stevev@efn.org'"<stevev@efn.org>Cc: "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>, "'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" <rddesign@wolfenet.com>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" <neill@foda.math.usu.edu>Cc: "'mkshp@ionet.net'" <mkshp@ionet.net> Subject: RE: Space questions...Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:18:57 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who doesnt>have any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able to builda spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island? (disregardmaterial needs for now, im talking about the law) Isn't this kind of the idea behind (among other projects) the MillenialProject?David-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:32:46 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:Space questions...Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Philip Bakelaar'		 <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Zenon Kulpa' <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'stevev@efn.org'"<stevev@efn.org>At 10:18 AM 7/22/96, David Levine wrote: >>what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who doesnt>>have any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able tobuild a spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island? (disregardmaterial needs for now, im talking about the law) >Isn't this kind of the idea behind (among other projects) the MillenialProject?>DavidNo, no, no. Ben wanted to buy and island to avoid legal problems. They wantto build and island as an exercise in selfsuficency. Entirely different. ;)Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 18:24:11 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: RE: Spacequestions...Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, "'Zenon Kulpa'"<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'stevev@efn.org'"<stevev@efn.org>At 09:32 AM 7/22/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >At 10:18 AM 7/22/96, David Levine wrote: >>>what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who doesnt>>>have any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able tobuild a spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island? (disregardmaterial needs for now, im talking about the law) >>Isn't this kind of the idea behind (among other projects) the MillenialProject?>>David>No, no, no. Ben wanted to buy and island to avoid legal problems. Theywant to build and island as an exercise in selfsuficency. Entirelydifferent. ;)>KellyThanx for saving me, Kelly. I didn't know what to say to David, because Ididn't really know what David was talking about. But yes, David, that waswhat I meant. To avoid legal problems. So, David, exactly what are you in the (yuk!) business? :P-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:10:05 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Cc: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@EXIT109.COM>, Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET Subject: Re:Space questions...Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:>At 9:21 AM 7/22/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >>The UN claims space is *theirs*?!?!?! OH my GOD, i can't believe that. Imean, how could they think that? How could the US not care? How couldthe UN...? Guys, fill me in here. Is the US govmn't *really* stupid, or is theUN *really* stupid, or is the public *really* stupid.. (actually, as far asI'm concerned, they all are, but im asking who's >>fault is it that this is happening?)>The U.N. is largely composed of third world nations (their are more ofthem then us) who generally have a socialist attitude. They largly draftedwhats called the space treaty (which the U.S. has refused to sign, thouClinton did make some moves to reverse that policy). Said treaty roughlystates that space is the common heritage of all mankind, and as a commonheritage no one person, group, or state can own or take profit from anypart of any planet, moon, orbit, or inter planetary transfer orbit. Anyattemp to use space must be done by an international body that distributesall profits equaly to all nations regardless of the participation in space bythat state.Kelly, I'm not sure that Socalist leanings are the real reason for the thirdworld nations' wanting the space treaty. It seems to me that the moreimportant reason, is that they are currently unable to participate in anycommercial exploitation, and want to stall the more developed countriesfrom gaining an unbreakable foothold. At least until they (the third world)can be in a position to catch up.>>what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who doesnthave any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able to builda spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island? (disregardmaterial needs for now, im talking about the law) This might work Ben, but Liberia is the wrong place for this. It is on thewest side of an ocean. A better place (for safety reasons) would be brazil,or somewhere around VietNam (ie near the equator on the eastern rim ofan ocean.) A company involved in commercial space flights (for sattelites)was trying to launch out of french guianna (sp) but they found out that thelocal infrastructure was so bad that it was worth the loss of a boost fromearth's rotation just to have access to Nasa's launch facilities andtracking stations etc. But back to legal issues. Your idea would work only until the localgovernment figured out that you were making money (or at least, you werespending so much that a few percent for taxes would hurt) Then theywould hold some space law over your head. Or worse, they would justnationalize the launch facility, and put you in jail for espionage, drugs, orviolations of some obscure religious code. --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say: "Youcan't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the samethief, So what does it really matter? This time I'm voting Libertarian.Harry Browne for President. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ (800) 682-1776-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:41:10 -0400-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: Space questions...Cc: Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET At 10:10 PM 7/22/96 -0700, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:>>The U.N. is largely composed of third world nations (their are more ofthem then us) who generally have a socialist attitude. They largly draftedwhats called the space treaty (which the U.S. has refused to sign, thouClinton did make some moves to reverse that policy). Said treaty roughlystates that space is the common heritage of all mankind, and as a commonheritage no one person, group, or state can own or take profit from anypart of any planet, moon, orbit, or inter planetary transfer orbit. Anyattemp to use space must be done by an international body that distributesall profits equaly to all nations regardless of the participation in space bythat state.>Kelly, I'm not sure that Socalist leanings are the real reason for the thirdworld nations' wanting the space treaty. It seems to me that the more important>reason, is that they are currently unable to participate in any commercialexploitation, and want to stall the more developed countries from gainingan unbreakable foothold. At least until they (the third world) can be in a position>to catch up.That just isn't fair. Isn't there anything anybody can do? >This might work Ben, but Liberia is the wrong place for this. It is on the west>side of an ocean. A better place (for safety reasons) would be brazil, or somewhere>around VietNam (ie near the equator on the eastern rim of an ocean.) Acompany involved in commercial space flights (for sattelites) was tryingto launch out of>french guianna (sp) but they found out that the local infrastructure wasso bad that it was worth the loss of a boost from earth's rotation just tohave access to Nasa's launch facilities and tracking stations etc. Oh.. the only reason I said Liberia was that I heard many companies,especially oil companies, like do stuff through Liberia cuz there are norestrictions. Did I hear right?>But back to legal issues. Your idea would work only until the localgovernment figured out that you were making money (or at least, you werespending so much that>a few percent for taxes would hurt) Then they would hold some space law over your>head. Or worse, they would just nationalize the launch facility, and put you in jail>for espionage, drugs, or violations of some obscure religious code. So there's really nowhere on Earth where someone/some group could doprivate r&d as well as launching?-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:42:49 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: How to become an astronaut?Cc: Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET Hey guys, I have a friend who is serious about wanting to be an astronaut.I'm just wondering what you guys suggest she should do to have a goodchance? Like, does she *need* to go to NASA camp? What about grades?Health requirements (like 20/20 vison)?Thanx for any and all infoBen-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:53:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Brandon Neill<neill@math.usu.edu> To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Cc:"Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET Subject: Re:How to become an astronaut? Mime-Version: 1.0On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >Hey guys, I have a friend who is serious about wanting to be an astronaut.I'm just wondering what you guys suggest she should do to have a goodchance? Like, does she *need* to go to NASA camp? What about grades?Health requirements (like 20/20 vison)?There are two different types of Astronaut, military (pilot etc.) andscientific. Unless she want's to spend several years in the military first,science is the way to go. I recently read an article about what it takes tobe an astronaut, unfortunatly I don't remember where or much about whatit said, I will try and find it tho. I do remember they said that having aprivate pilots license was a plus. The article was probably in Ad Astra orPopular Science... I would imagine good vision is required for the pilots.(you can't wear contacts or eyeglasses to fly a jet) but not necessary forthe scientist (I know I've seen some with glasses). However, the newsurgeries for vision are an automatic red flag. They don't know how theeye will hold up under stress. Naturally being in shape and good grades area definate plus too. Brandon Neill-------------neill@foda.math.usu.edu	"I think therefore I am dangerous"http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneill-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:59:06 -0600 (MDT) From: Brandon Neill<neill@math.usu.edu> To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Cc:"Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET Subject: Re:Space questions...Mime-Version: 1.0On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >That just isn't fair. Isn't there anything anybody can do? I won't even comment on that line...>So there's really nowhere on Earth where someone/some group could doprivate r&d as well as launching?How about international waters? Expenses would be higher, but it mightbe feasable (I don't know about the legalities tho) Also I've heard or readthat even if you conduct business overseas if you are an american citizen,american laws still hold sway over you. I believe that will cause aproblem with regulations as well.Brandon Neill-------------neill@foda.math.usu.edu	"I think therefore I am dangerous"http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneill-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:04:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Brandon Neill<neill@math.usu.edu> To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Cc:"Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET Subject:minor stuff...Mime-Version: 1.0Hello,I've been reading this group for quite a while now and have recentlystarted conversing in it too. I was just wondering if anyone has thoughtabout creating a mailing list for this group. It would make filing and stufflike that a lot easier as everything would come from the same address, itwould also facilitate automatic archiving if desired. I would assume thatsomeone has a server that listserv or something could be run on.Brandon Neill-------------neill@foda.math.usu.edu	"I think therefore I am dangerous"http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneill-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:02:28 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: Brandon Neill<neill@math.usu.edu>Cc: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Kelly Starks x7066MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET Subject:minor stuff...Brandon Neill writes:>Hello,>I've been reading this group for quite a while now and have recentlystarted conversing in it too. I was just wondering if anyone has thoughtabout creating a mailing list for this group. It would make filing and stufflike that a lot easier as everything would come from the same address, itwould also facilitate automatic archiving if desired. I would assume thatsomeone has a server that listserv or something could be run on.>Brandon Neill>------------->neill@foda.math.usu.edu	"I think therefore I am dangerous">http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneillActually, I have been thinking about offering this very service. I have atleast two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such alist from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this listis small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the listmanually.If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names. I think the onlyquestion is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit? starship-design?I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor anysubscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or owner-list addresses. If I get ambitious I could probably even create a digestversion in addition to the simple mail reflector.-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:34:21 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>, Brandon Neill<neill@math.usu.edu> From: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>Subject: Re: minor stuff...Cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET At 11:02 PM 7/22/96 -0700, Steve VanDevender wrote: >Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service. I have atleast two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such alist from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this listis small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the listmanually.>If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names. I think the onlyquestion is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit? starship-design?>I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor anysubscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or owner-list addresses. If I get ambitious I could probably even create a digestversion in addition to the simple mail reflector. I like it! That would make mailing so much easier. The name... how aboutLIT-Core or Core-LIT or something?-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 06:27:46 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>Cc: Brandon Neill <neill@math.usu.edu>,Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET Subject: Re:minor stuff...Steve VanDevender wrote:>Brandon Neill writes:>>Hello,>>I've been reading this group for quite a while now and have recentlystarted conversing in it too. I was just wondering if anyone has thoughtabout creating a mailing list for this group. It would make filing and stufflike that a lot easier as everything would come from the same address, itwould also facilitate automatic archiving if desired. I would assume thatsomeone has a server that listserv or something could be run on.>>Brandon Neill>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service. I have atleast two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such alist from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this listis small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the listmanually.>If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names. I think the onlyquestion is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit? starship-design?>I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor anysubscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or owner-list addresses. If I get ambitious I could probably even create a digestversion in addition to the simple mail reflector. Steve, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposeing. Are you sayingthat when I send a e-mail to listserv@wherever it would automaticallybounce to all the members? Or are you saying that the messages wouldstack up for a while, and then one e-mail would be sent to each of us on aweekly basis (or whenever) and would you be able to handle the addition ofnew members (several hundred?) If it is the former, then I don't think that is an improvement, but if it isthe latter, then it sounds like a good idea to me (assuming that LIT doesn'tmove to Urly-bird.com)And while we're on the subject, Since I've heard little in the way ofopinions on my offer to host LIT on Urly-bird.com, I'm going to assumethat most members are ambivilent at best, and opposed (and not wishingto hurt my feelings) at worst. I have decided to go with the server anyway, (I have a new client and theyneed server space as well as a web page. This means I will have 30 Megsof storage, and about 2 Megs of content. My offer to host LIT still stands,don't worry about running me out of server space, by the time I get nearenough to 30 Megs to cause concern, I'll have enough clients to cover thecost of more storage space. I have gotten enough offers of money (I promised to keep the namessecret) to cover any start-up costs associated with this move, so I willnot be asking for any more. I would like it if LIT would allow Urly-bird torun _one_ banner ad on the index.html page, but I would not insist on this.Whether or not LIT runs ads on it's other pages, is a matter for us todecide at a future date. I am asking for your opinions at this time. If you think this is a good idea,please say so, if you think it is a bad idea please say so also (I promise Iwon't be offended) If I don't hear from a majority of the group by friday,July 27th, I will assume that not enough people want to do it, and I willwithdraw my offer and speak no more of it.--Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/urlybird.html-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39' <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Philip Bakelaar'<pbakelaar@exit109.com> Cc: 'Zenon Kulpa' <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'"	 <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 	<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'stevev@efn.org'"	 <stevev@efn.org>,"'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"	 <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'"	 <rddesign@WOLFENET.COM>Cc: "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>, "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" <neill@foda.math.usu.edu>,"'mkshp@IONET.NET'" <mkshp@IONET.NET>Subject: RE: How to become an astronaut? Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:38:31-0400Mime-Version: 1.0>From the NASA FAQ list:---------------------------HOW CAN I BECOME AN ASTRONAUT?Any adult man or woman in excellent physical condition who meets thebasic qualifications can be selected to enter astronaut training. For mission specialists and pilot astronauts, the minimum requirementsinclude a bachelor's degree in engineering, science or mathematics froman accredited institution. Three years of related experience must followthe degree, and an advanced degree is desirable. Pilot astronauts musthave at least 1,000 hours of experience in jet aircraft, and they needbetter vision than mission specialists. Competition is extremely keen,with an average of over 4,000 applicants for about 20 openings every 2years.Astronaut recruiting occurs periodically. For more information, write tothe Astronaut Selection Office, NASA Johnson Space Center, Houston, TX,77058.---------------------------Anyway, like Kelly, I used to work at JSC. I know someone who is actuallyundergoing the process and I know an astronaut. Let me tell you that it'sharder than you think. The neatest part, in my opinion,is that the first step is filling out a standard form for application to agovernment job. I think that's an SF-171, but my memory could be lying...anyone remember what the form number is for applying to a federal job?Basically the requirements aren't officially strict. They're tough, but ahuge percentage of the applicants make the requirements... they wouldn'tapply otherwise, for the most part. But it's the competition, the fact thatyou are competing with so many people who are just as good if not betterthan you, that makes it hard. When they have two candidates who bothmeet the requirements, they look for the person who has gone above andbeyond. And when you've got two hundred candidates who all meet therequirements, well..... So while a bachelor's degree is the requirement, most civilian astronauts(and a good sized portion of military astronauts) have a PhD. Physicalrequirements are hard, but certainly not unattainable - they don't put youthrough the rigor of the old Mercury/Gemini/Apollo days. 20/20 vision isnot necessary (at least not for mission specialists). A bunch of astronautswear glasses on orbit, although I don't know what the deal is withcontacts. I'm pretty sure none of the current astronauts ever attendedspace camp - hasn't been around that long. The most important thing, asyou mention, is education. Piloting experience certainly won't hurt,although it isn't needed to be a mission specialist. Being a well roundedindividual helps, as well. Mostly what it comes down to is the "interview"(a multi-part process), so a charismatic personality can't hurt, either. There are some apocryphal legends, as well, about what some of theinterview entails. At one point, supposedly, the remaining candidates arebrought out to dinner at this cool cajun place out by Ellington Field (whichI can't remember the name of off hand, but it's right on 3, outside ofEllington... help me out Kelly?) Basically they want to see you drink.... andstop. Rumors of not drinking at all getting you disqualified (noconstitution, anti-social, whatever), and of candidates going too far andnot knowing when to stop themselves getting disqualified. Of course, thisis not part of the official process. And, like I said, apocryphal. -David>---------->From: 	Philip Bakelaar[SMTP:pbakelaar@exit109.com] Sent:	Monday, July 22, 1996 11:42 PM>To: 	Kevin 'Tex' Houston; Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 Cc: 	DavidLevine; Zenon Kulpa; KellySt@aol.com;T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl; stevev@efn.org;jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu; rddesign@WOLFENET.COM;lparker@destin.gulfnet.com; DotarSojat@aol.com; sl0c8@cc.usu.edu;neill@foda.math.usu.edu; mkshp@IONET.NET Subject: 	How to becomean astronaut?>Hey guys, I have a friend who is serious about wanting to be an astronaut.I'm just wondering what you guys suggest she should do to have a goodchance? Like, does she *need* to go to NASA camp? What about grades?Health requirements (like 20/20 vison)?>Thanx for any and all info>Ben-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39' <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Philip Bakelaar'<pbakelaar@exit109.com> Cc: 'Zenon Kulpa' <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'"	 <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 	<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'stevev@efn.org'"	 <stevev@efn.org>,"'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"	 <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'"	 <rddesign@WOLFENET.COM>Cc: "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>, "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" <neill@foda.math.usu.edu>,"'mkshp@IONET.NET'" <mkshp@IONET.NET>Subject: RE: Space questions...Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:41:41 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>Oh.. the only reason I said Liberia was that I heard many companies,especially>oil companies, like do stuff through Liberia cuz there are no restrictions.Did>I hear right?Among other industries, I used to work in shipbuilding. Mainly the idea isthat most ships have Liberian registry, rather than USA, because therearen't any Liberian taxes on the ship's operation or cargo. There are goofylaws that say things like foreign registered ships can't visit two US portsin a row without paying such-and-such, though, which tries to force UScompanies back into registering in the US... don't know how that particularbattle is going because it's been a while since I've played around in thatparticular area.David------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Philip Bakelaar'	 <pbakelaar@exit109.com>Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston' <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Zenon Kulpa'<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'stevev@efn.org'"<stevev@efn.org>Subject: RE: Space questions...Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:43:42 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>So, David, exactly what are you in the (yuk!) business? :P I work for a software company which creates (among other things):commerce servers for the internet, chat systems, web posting systems,multiplayer games, publishing systems, etc. Hell of a field - competitionis killer. http://www.interworld.com/ David-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: 'Brandon Neill'<neill@math.usu.edu>, 'Steve VanDevender'	 <stevev@efn.org>Cc: 'Philip Bakelaar' <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'	 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'	 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,'Zenon Kulpa' <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> Cc: "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"<jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>, "'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'" <rddesign@WOLFENET.COM>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" <neill@foda.math.usu.edu>Cc: "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" <mkshp@IONET.NET> Subject: RE: minor stuff...Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:47:56 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service. I have>at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run sucha list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this listis small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the>list manually.Definately make things easier. I guess the main question is how much willthe list grow? Perhaps this could be a temporary solution until the newsiteis up and running, very popular, and a full-blown, multi-hundred-memberlistseems like a real possibility?David---------P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT that addressesall the various offers. More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today) as Itry to write down what I've been thinking about.-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 16:00:38 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Urly-bird offer>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 13:38:58 1996 >I am asking for your opinions at this time. If you think this is a good idea,please say so, if you think it is a bad idea please say so also (I promise Iwon't be offended) If I don't hear from a majority of the group by friday,July 27th, I will assume that not enough people want to do it, and I willwithdraw my offer and speak no more of it.I am inclined to say YES.However, I would like to hear Dave's thoughts on that before my finalcommitment:>From David@InterWorld.com Tue Jul 23 15:48:16 1996 >P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT thataddresses>all the various offers. More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today) as I>try to write down what I've been thinking about. As maybe not all of you know,Dave was the one who started all this affair... -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:57:31 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: Spacequestions...Cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET At 11:41 PM 7/22/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >At 10:10 PM 7/22/96 -0700, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:>>>The U.N. is largely composed of third world nations (their are more ofthem then us) who generally have a socialist attitude. They largly draftedwhats called the space treaty (which the U.S. has refused to sign, thouClinton did make some moves to reverse that policy). Said treaty roughlystates that space is the common heritage of all mankind, and as a commonheritage no one person, group, or state can own or take profit from anypart of any planet, moon, orbit, or inter planetary transfer orbit. Anyattemp to use space must be done by an international body that distributesall profits equaly to all nations regardless of the participation in space bythat state.>>Kelly, I'm not sure that Socalist leanings are the real reason for thethird world nations' wanting the space treaty. It seems to me that themore >important>>reason, is that they are currently unable to participate in anycommercial exploitation, and want to stall the more developed countriesfrom gaining an unbreakable foothold. At least until they (the third world)can be in a >position>>to catch up.No, in the interviews I saw, the U.S. reps said the third world repshonestly didn't understand where the U.S. was coming from. They had allagreed on the idea that space and oceans were the common heratige ofmankind and everyone should get equal access rights. They just didn'tunderstand why the U.S. would think that didn't imply an equal share of theprofits.Eiather way, its not like the first guy out there could claim all the bestplanets. Much less that the third world could get out their on their own inthe next century.>That just isn't fair. Isn't there anything anybody can do? Ignore them. If we don't sign the treaty. We arn't bound by its rules. TheU.N. can screem, but if the senior menber state refuse to participate, theirisn't much they can do. No doubt this will cause a lot of headache for thestate department (no doubt why they have been eager to roll over on this),but comparativly little real impact. >>This might work Ben, but Liberia is the wrong place for this. It is on the >west>>side of an ocean. A better place (for safety reasons) would be brazil, or >somewhere>>around VietNam (ie near the equator on the eastern rim of an ocean.) Acompany involved in commercial space flights (for sattelites) was tryingto launch >out of>>french guianna (sp) but they found out that the local infrastructure wasso bad>>that it was worth the loss of a boost from earth's rotation just to haveaccess>>to Nasa's launch facilities and tracking stations etc. New launchers like SSTO don't need the high safty precausions of thecurrent boosters. Thats why the initial tests are being run out ofCalifornia.>Oh.. the only reason I said Liberia was that I heard many companies,especially oil companies, like do stuff through Liberia cuz there are norestrictions. Did I hear right?Pretty much true. Countries like that, allow you to register your ship tothem for a fee. They realize as long as they keep the fees well below thetax bite the major countries would demand (and the fees of compeatingcountries,) they get companies paying to list the ships under their country.>>But back to legal issues. Your idea would work only until the localgovernment>>figured out that you were making money (or at least, you were spendingso >much that>>a few percent for taxes would hurt) Then they would hold some spacelaw >over your>>head. Or worse, they would just nationalize the launch facility, and put >you in jail>>for espionage, drugs, or violations of some obscure religious code. The trick is to not put any expensive launch facilities in their country, andnot to park to many ships their at once. SSTO's like the DC-X require noexpensive launch facilities.Also the countries would realize that your ships can go anywahere, and ifthey get nasty you and all the other 'flag carriors' will relocate to afreindlier country.>So there's really nowhere on Earth where someone/some group could doprivate r&d>as well as launching?Everywhere on planet is under someones jurisdiction. Even deep ocean hassome laws, and its has pirates who will raid you if your valuble and don'thave a country willing to help defend you. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:09:18 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:How to become an astronaut? Cc: 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39' <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Philip Bakelaar'<pbakelaar@exit109.com>, 'Zenon Kulpa' <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'"		 <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"		<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'stevev@efn.org'"		<stevev@efn.org>,"'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"		 <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'"		 <rddesign@WOLFENET.COM> At 9:38 AM 7/23/96, David Levine wrote:>>From the NASA FAQ list:>------------------------------------->experience certainly won't hurt, although it isn't needed to be a missionspecialist. Being a well rounded individual helps, as well. Mostly what itcomes down to is the "interview" (a multi-part process), so a charismaticpersonality can't hurt, either. I worked in the flight planing office, and some people who wanted tobecome astronauts would take a job there to look good and well trained onlater reviews. To be a pilot you need to have flown jet fighters a lot.Mission specialists usually are experts in their feilds, often ex researchleads. If you've don'r something questionable (funny political organizations, drugcharges, etc..) forget it. NASA won't risk the bad press. If you are an astronaut you can put on a few pounds and need glasses. As anapplicant, they use any excuse to dump your resume. A big question is how things will change with the SSTO program. Theproduction birds should be coming on line in under 10 years so costsshould come down and they'll be able to fly more flights. If SSTO does getimplemented, NASA will have to phase out the shuttles so their wount bemay/any maned flights.>There are some apocryphal legends, as well, about what some of theinterview entails. At one point, supposedly, the remaining candidates arebrought out to dinner at this cool cajun place out by Ellington Field (whichI can't remember the name of off hand, but it's right on 3, outside ofEllington... help me out Kelly?) Ahhh. Yeah, little place in a converted gas station. errr. Its been 9 yearssince I worked there Dave. ????? Damn they had great BBQ too. Who thehell were they?>--- Basically>they want to see you drink.... and stop. Rumors of not drinking at allgetting you disqualified (no constitution, anti-social, whatever), and ofcandidates going too far and not knowing when to stop themselves gettingdisqualified. Of course, this is not part of the official process. And, like Isaid, apocryphal. >-DavidWell its harder to get chosen to play basketball for the NBA, but not a lotharder. Hundreds apply for the openings. So if you don't shine, you get lostin the pile.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:08:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Kevin C Houston<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>Cc: 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39' <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Philip Bakelaar' <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, 'Zenon Kulpa'<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'stevev@efn.org'"<stevev@efn.org>,"'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'" <rddesign@wolfenet.com>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" <neill@foda.math.usu.edu>,"'mkshp@IONET.NET'" <mkshp@IONET.NET>Subject: RE: How to become an astronaut? Mime-Version: 1.0On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, David Levine wrote: >Anyway, like Kelly, I used to work at JSC. I know someone who is actuallyundergoing the process and I know an astronaut. Let me tell you that it'sharder than you think. The neatest part, in my opinion,>is that the first step is filling out a standard form for application to agovernment job. I think that's an SF-171, but my memory could be lying...anyone remember what the form number is for applying to a federal job?Yes, it is a SF-171, but actually, you can now apply with a standardResume. Gore's Reinventing Goverment Initiative has made one positivechange ;)Kevin-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:12:27 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:minor stuff...Cc: 'Brandon Neill' <neill@math.usu.edu>, 'Steve VanDevender'		 <stevev@efn.org>,'Philip Bakelaar' <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'		<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'		<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Zenon Kulpa' <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> At 9:47 AM 7/23/96, David Levine wrote:>>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service. I have>>at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to runsuch a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), andthis list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even runthe>>list manually.>Definately make things easier. I guess the main question is how muchwill>the list grow? Perhaps this could be a temporary solution until the newsite>is up and running, very popular, and a full-blown, multi-hundred-memberlist>seems like a real possibility?>DavidI was thinking of hosting a mail list newsletter on my AOL account also.We should decide this soon. We need to implement something, and I'mwriting these sections.>--------->P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT thataddresses>all the various offers. More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today) as I>try to write down what I've been thinking about. We wait with anticipations. ;)Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:16:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Kevin C Houston<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Cc: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Re:Space questions...Mime-Version: 1.0On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>>Kelly, I'm not sure that Socalist leanings are the real reason for thethird world nations' wanting the space treaty. It seems to me that themore >>important>>>reason, is that they are currently unable to participate in anycommercial exploitation, and want to stall the more developed countriesfrom gaining an unbreakable foothold. At least until they (the third world)can be in a >>position>>>to catch up.>No, in the interviews I saw, the U.S. reps said the third world repshonestly didn't understand where the U.S. was coming from. They had allagreed on the idea that space and oceans were the common heratige ofmankind and everyone should get equal access rights. They just didn'tunderstand why the U.S. would think that didn't imply an equal share of theprofits.>Eiather way, its not like the first guy out there could claim all the bestplanets. Much less that the third world could get out their on their own inthe next century.So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it. Thispays back the high developement cost, and since there is no competiton,they make back the startup cost. after a few years, some smaller countrydecides they want a piece of the pie. So they send their own miningcontingent to the moon, but find that the US can always undercharge forthe ore, because the startup cost has been paid back. This is what I wastalking about.Kevin-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 17:21:54 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Re: Space questions...>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996 >So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it. Thispays back the high developement cost, and since there is no competiton,they make back the startup cost. after a few years, some smaller countrydecides they want a piece of the pie. So they send their own miningcontingent to the moon, but find that the US can always undercharge forthe ore, because the startup cost has been paid back. This is what I wastalking about.Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some new product/technology.So, should every new investor share his profits with all would-be ones?This is just pure socialism, if anything... -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:35:50 -0500To: Kevin C Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: Spacequestions...Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net At 10:16 AM 7/23/96, Kevin C Houston wrote: >On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>>>Kelly, I'm not sure that Socalist leanings are the real reason for the >>third>>>>world nations' wanting the space treaty. It seems to me that the more >>>important>>>>reason, is that they are currently unable to participate in anycommercial exploitation, and want to stall the more developed countriesfrom >>gaining an>>>>unbreakable foothold. At least until they (the third world) can be in a >>>position>>>>to catch up.>>No, in the interviews I saw, the U.S. reps said the third world repshonestly didn't understand where the U.S. was coming from. They had allagreed on the idea that space and oceans were the common heratige ofmankind and everyone should get equal access rights. They just didn'tunderstand why the U.S. would think that didn't imply an equal share of theprofits.>>Eiather way, its not like the first guy out there could claim all the bestplanets. Much less that the third world could get out their on their own inthe next century.>So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it. Thispays back the high developement cost, and since there is no competiton,they make back the startup cost. after a few years, some smaller countrydecides they want a piece of the pie. So they send their own miningcontingent to the moon, but find that the US can always undercharge forthe ore, because the startup cost has been paid back. This is what I wastalking about.>KevinThats possible. But the R&D cost of the equipment would also be paid forinternational who wanted to buy the equip. (assuming we'ld sell.) Sort ofhow the current B-2 bombers cost $1 billion dollars, but any more wouldcost about $400 million. <Overhead kills you.> Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:39:31 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Space questions...Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net At 5:21 PM 7/23/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996 >>So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it. Thispays back the high developement cost, and since there is no competiton,they make back the startup cost. after a few years, some smaller countrydecides they want a piece of the pie. So they send their own miningcontingent to the moon, but find that the US can always undercharge forthe ore, because the startup cost has been paid back. This is what I wastalking about.>Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some new product/technology.So, should every new investor share his profits with all would-be ones?This is just pure socialism, if anything... >-- ZenonThe idea was just that. The details were more worked up for the law ofthe sea treaty. In that the compramise law had the comercial companiesequiping, training, and seting up, a compeating UN facility for everycorporate facility they built. <It was called parallel track. I think.> Theorigional idea had everything done by the UN, all profits to be disbursed bythe UN.<shudder>Big brother owns everything not currently claimed by a sovern power? Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:02:17 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com(Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Cc: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "'Brandon Neill'" <neill@math.usu.edu>,"'Steve VanDevender'"		 <stevev@efn.org>, "'Philip Bakelaar'"<pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"		<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, "'Zenon Kulpa'" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> Subject: RE: minor stuff...Kelly Starks writes:>At 9:47 AM 7/23/96, David Levine wrote: >>>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service. I have>>>at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to runsuch a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), andthis list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even runthe>>>list manually.>>Definately make things easier. I guess the main question is how muchwill>>the list grow? Perhaps this could be a temporary solution until the newsite>>is up and running, very popular, and a full-blown, multi-hundred-memberlist>>seems like a real possibility?>>David>I was thinking of hosting a mail list newsletter on my AOL account also.We should decide this soon. We need to implement something, and I'mwriting these sections.I'd be a little leary of trying to run a mailing list out of AOL. At least fromthe outside, AOL is notorious for having broken mailers, delays, and lostmail.Part of why I am offering to host a list myself is that I can guarantee astable system for mail, and good network connectivity through the U of O.-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:56:43 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston"<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Cc: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>,Brandon Neill <neill@math.usu.edu>, Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET Subject: Re:minor stuff...Kevin Houston writes:>Steve VanDevender wrote:>>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service. I have atleast two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such alist from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this listis small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the listmanually.>>If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names. I think the onlyquestion is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit? starship-design?>>I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor anysubscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or owner-list addresses. If I get ambitious I could probably even create a digestversion in addition to the simple mail reflector. >Steve, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposeing. Are you sayingthat when I send a e-mail to listserv@wherever it would automaticallybounce to all the members? Or are you saying that the messages wouldstack up for a while, and then one e-mail would be sent to each of us on aweekly basis (or whenever) and would you be able to handle the addition ofnew members (several hundred?) >If it is the former, then I don't think that is an improvement, but if it isthe latter, then it sounds like a good idea to me (assuming that LIT doesn'tmove to Urly-bird.com)Let me restate what I'm proposing:I would create a mailing list, for the purposes of this example mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu. Mail to mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.eduwould go to all current recipients of this message; it would beimplemented as a mail alias so remailing of messages would be instantand automatic. People could subscribe or unsubscribe by mailing to mini-lit-request@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu or owner-mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu. For now I'd probably just handle the mailinglist manually rather than using automated mailing list software, andconsider the automated mailing list if volume became very high.If there is interest I could also create a mini-lit-digest that would sendmulti-message digests rather than individual messages. It would be anoption in addition to the mini-lit mail reflector, not a replacement. I'm proposing this as a convenience to current subscribers to the currentmini-lit. Rather than have to handle a long recipient list or remember whois and isn't on the list, I'm willing to set up a service so that people canjust mail to mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu, which would simplifysubmissions and make it easier for recipients to automatically sort andarchive messages. Just so you know, hexadecimal.uoregon.edu is an AlphaStation 255/233running Digital UNIX that is permanently connected at the University ofOregon. It's my personal workstation, which is why I can offer a mini-litmailing list service on it -- it's completely under my control and I'm sureit is easily capable of handling the mailing list. I could also look into the possibility of hosting the list ondarkwing.uoregon.edu, which handles most of the other mailing lists at theU of O. I'm not as sure what the eligibility requirements for having a liston darkwing are, but if we qualify then it would also instantly set thislist up as a Majordomo list and allow automatedsubscription/unsubscription.-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:21:12 -0500To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:minor stuff...Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>,"'Brandon Neill'" <neill@math.usu.edu>,"'Steve VanDevender'"		 <stevev@efn.org>, "'Philip Bakelaar'"<pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"		<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, "'Zenon Kulpa'" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> At 10:02 AM 7/23/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >Kelly Starks writes:>>At 9:47 AM 7/23/96, David Levine wrote: >>>>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service. I have>>>>at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to runsuch a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), andthis list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even runthe>>>>list manually.>>>Definately make things easier. I guess the main question is how muchwill>>>the list grow? Perhaps this could be a temporary solution until the newsite>>>is up and running, very popular, and a full-blown, multi-hundred-member list>>>seems like a real possibility?>>>David>>I was thinking of hosting a mail list newsletter on my AOL account also.We should decide this soon. We need to implement something, and I'mwriting these sections.>I'd be a little leary of trying to run a mailing list out of AOL. At leastfrom the outside, AOL is notorious for having broken mailers, delays, andlost mail.>Part of why I am offering to host a list myself is that I can guarantee astable system for mail, and good network connectivity through the U of O.Well I am on the inside. So I could handel packaging and shiping, thou anautomatic version would be nice. (I have other things I could do with mytime.)I don't know which AOL problems your speaking of. Not that I'm on a lot ofmailers.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:40:24 -0500To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:minor stuff...Cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>, Brandon Neill <neill@math.usu.edu>,Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET At 9:56 AM 7/23/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >Kevin Houston writes:>>Steve VanDevender wrote:>>>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service. I have atleast two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such alist from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this listis small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the listmanually.>>>If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names. I think the onlyquestion is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit? starship-design?>>>I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor anysubscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or owner-list addresses. If I get ambitious I could probably even create a digestversion in addition to the simple mail reflector. >>Steve, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposeing. Are you sayingthat when I send a e-mail to listserv@wherever it would automaticallybounce to all the members? Or are you saying that the messages wouldstack up for a while, and then one e-mail would be sent to each of us on aweekly basis (or whenever) and would you be able to handle the addition ofnew members (several hundred?) >>If it is the former, then I don't think that is an improvement, but if it isthe latter, then it sounds like a good idea to me (assuming that LIT doesn'tmove to Urly-bird.com)>Let me restate what I'm proposing:>I would create a mailing list, for the purposes of this example mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu. Mail to mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.eduwould go to all current recipients of this message; it would beimplemented as a mail alias so remailing of messages would be instantand automatic. People could subscribe or unsubscribe by mailing to mini-lit-request@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu or owner-mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu. For now I'd probably just handle the mailinglist manually rather than using automated mailing list software, andconsider the automated mailing list if volume became very high.>If there is interest I could also create a mini-lit-digest that would sendmulti-message digests rather than individual messages. It would be anoption in addition to the mini-lit mail reflector, not a replacement. >I'm proposing this as a convenience to current subscribers to the currentmini-lit. Rather than have to handle a long recipient list or remember whois and isn't on the list, I'm willing to set up a service so that people canjust mail to mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu, which would simplifysubmissions and make it easier for recipients to automatically sort andarchive messages. >Just so you know, hexadecimal.uoregon.edu is an AlphaStation 255/233running Digital UNIX that is permanently connected at the University ofOregon. It's my personal workstation, which is why I can offer a mini-litmailing list service on it -- it's completely under my control and I'm sureit is easily capable of handling the mailing list. >I could also look into the possibility of hosting the list ondarkwing.uoregon.edu, which handles most of the other mailing lists at theU of O. I'm not as sure what the eligibility requirements for having a liston darkwing are, but if we qualify then it would also instantly set thislist up as a Majordomo list and allow automatedsubscription/unsubscription.Ah, thats much clearer. Thanks.I would suggest we not only bundel say weekly newsletter, but we includethem, and the last couple months worth, in the LIT newsletter archive.First because we cover a lot of stuff; and because it makes the site lookactive, not dead.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 19:51:40 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Re: minor stuff...>From stevev@efn.org Tue Jul 23 19:42:08 1996 >Let me restate what I'm proposing:>I would create a mailing list, for the purposes of this example mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu.>[...]Of course I am for it.Individual tracking of the list of addresses is a pain in the neck, and itoften lead to missing some members or sending posts to unwillingrecipients when members come and go, or change addresses. I wonderedwhy it was not made from the beginning of this "mini-LIT" list (I stillreally do not understand why the old newsletter arrangement becamedefunct, as the WWW pages on SUNsite are accessible all the time...).-- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:05:05 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com(Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Cc: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>,"Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Brandon Neill<neill@math.usu.edu>,Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET Subject: Re: minor stuff...Kelly Starks writes:>I would suggest we not only bundel say weekly newsletter, but weinclude them, and the last couple months worth, in the LIT newsletterarchive. First because we cover a lot of stuff; and because it makes thesite look active, not dead.I have an archive of most of the mini-LIT mail since we started theimpromptu mailing list. I would also want to keep an archive as part ofmaintaining the mailing list, which could also be a start towards offeringa digest version to subscribers that want it in that form.-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:28:54 -0500To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:minor stuff...Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>,"Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Brandon Neill<neill@math.usu.edu>,Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET At 11:05 AM 7/23/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >Kelly Starks writes:>>I would suggest we not only bundel say weekly newsletter, but weinclude them, and the last couple months worth, in the LIT newsletterarchive. First because we cover a lot of stuff; and because it makes thesite look active, not dead.>I have an archive of most of the mini-LIT mail since we started theimpromptu mailing list. I would also want to keep an archive as part ofmaintaining the mailing list, which could also be a start towards offeringa digest version to subscribers that want it in that form. Great!Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:38:42 -0500To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:minor stuff...Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>,"Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Brandon Neill<neill@math.usu.edu>,Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET At 11:05 AM 7/23/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >Kelly Starks writes:>>I would suggest we not only bundel say weekly newsletter, but weinclude them, and the last couple months worth, in the LIT newsletterarchive. First because we cover a lot of stuff; and because it makes thesite look active, not dead.>I have an archive of most of the mini-LIT mail since we started theimpromptu mailing list. I would also want to keep an archive as part ofmaintaining the mailing list, which could also be a start towards offeringa digest version to subscribers that want it in that form. You know. Now that I think about it wasn't someone talking about hanging asearch engine on the newsletters? Pity we havent the time to tear themdown into topis FAQ's or something.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 21:09:12 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Re: New lit loadings>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 20:40:29 1996 >At 7:56 PM 7/23/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 17:30:00 1996 >>>As you probably know, I've been working up some stuff for LIT. Well I'vejust uploaded a bunch of it. New home pages for LITY, Marine sciences,near earth development, and central library, member lists, etc.. etc...Please take a look.>>>http://165.254.130.90/LIT/>>You asked for that... ;-))>>1. The URL above loads the "Hi there" text and nothing more >>(as does your LIT imagemap).>>One must do some guesswork to add "index.html" to the address... >Opps. Try.>http://165.254.130.90/LIT/index.htmlYes, I had already figured it out(as you should have seen from my text above...) >>3. Some texts on your LIT imagemap are too small/too low contrast, >>hence hardly readable.>Do you mean the tree on the bottom of the pages? Exactly.>>4. Congratulations! - you must have worked reeeelly hard: >>the number of spelling errors is an order of magnitude less that yourusual share... ;-)>??? I though I forgot to even spell check it? Really??? Miracles happen... ;-)>>And be prepared for another round of Kelly-bashing concerning the one-way missions... ;-))>:) Oooo. Freash meat.>I could never figure out where you were coming from on the pro kamakaziflights. Over here were hard pressed to get permision to deliberatly risksolder lives in combat. Expending them for anything short of saving a U.S.city is unthinkable.>In my cynical periods, I figured you'ld been under the Soviet thumb for toolong.There may be something in it -we here must still have some fighting trim left (you coke-drinking, couch-potato-lying decadents... ;-)) Seriously, though, my problem with this discussion was that youseemingly were not able to, or do not want to, understandand the GREATdifference between one-way missions and suicide missions. Only thelatter are "kamikaze"; the former are simply cosmic-distance relocations- I do not see any suicidal elements in them. So budling both types ofmissions under "one-way" heading and then discussing them together as ifboth were same-type suicidal missions (as you do in your Progress Report)really infuriates me, as simply unfair arguing practice... -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:50:59 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:New lit loadingsCc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net At 9:09 PM 7/23/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 20:40:29 1996 >>At 7:56 PM 7/23/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote: >>>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 17:30:00 1996 >>>4. Congratulations! - you must have worked reeeelly hard: >>>the number of spelling errors is an order of magnitude less that yourusual share... ;-)>>??? I though I forgot to even spell check it? >Really??? Miracles happen... ;-)Another victory of dumb luck, over skill and dilligence. ;)>>>And be prepared for another round of Kelly-bashing concerning the one-way missions... ;-))>>:) Oooo. Freash meat.>>I could never figure out where you were coming from on the prokamakazi flights. Over here were hard pressed to get permision todeliberatly risk solder lives in combat. Expending them for anything shortof saving a U.S. city is unthinkable.>>In my cynical periods, I figured you'ld been under the Soviet thumb fortoo long.>There may be something in it ->we here must still have some fighting trim left (you coke-drinking,couch-potato-lying decadents... ;-)) >Seriously, though, my problem with this discussion was that youseemingly were not able to, or do not want to, understandand the GREATdifference between one-way missions and suicide missions. Only thelatter are "kamikaze"; the former are simply cosmic-distance relocations- I do not see any suicidal elements in them. >So bundling both types of missions under "one-way" heading and thendiscussing them together as if both were same-type suicidal missions (asyou do in your Progress Report) really infuriates me, as simply unfairarguing practice... >-- ZenonSorry it it seemed that way. I was not trying to unfairly slight one of theoptions. But excluding colony missions (where one assumes people wish to[and can] live there and intend to build homes and cities and such), I reallydon't see any significant difference. You're sending people to go there, do a few years of work, and then beabandoned to sit in the ship until systems failures or lack of medical killsthem. They obviously can't live out their full life expectancy (evenassuming the ship lasts that long), and their quality of life (traped in adeteriorating derilict ship) is worse than what we'ld assign hardenedcriminals to. So I would expect a large fraction of any crew stuck there tosuicide after the mission ends anyway. There only hope would be rescue bya follow up flight (with a much better ship). Politically and practically, your throwing people away for your missionconvenence. Which would [not unreasonably] play in the press as murder. Isincerly don't see such a mission could be proposed or executed (no punintended) in the industrial world.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:24:18 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Cc: KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@IONET.NET Subject: Re: Space questions...Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996 >>So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it. Thispays back the high developement cost, and since there is no competiton,they make back the startup cost. after a few years, some smaller countrydecides they want a piece of the pie. So they send their own miningcontingent to the moon, but find that the US can always undercharge forthe ore, because the startup cost has been paid back. This is what I wastalking about.>Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some new product/technology.So, should every new investor share his profits with all would-be ones?This is just pure socialism, if anything... >-- ZenonNo, No you mis-understand me. I meant to suggest that the smallercountries are using the socialism angle (which they know the US willnever accept) to buy time so that they can get their own space program upand running --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say: "Youcan't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the samethief, So what does it really matter? This time I'm voting Libertarian.Harry Browne for President. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ (800) 682-1776-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:28:34 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>Cc: Brandon Neill <neill@math.usu.edu>,Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Re:minor stuff...Steve VanDevender wrote:>Kevin Houston writes:>>Steve VanDevender wrote:>>>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service. I have atleast two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such alist from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this listis small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the listmanually.>>>If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names. I think the onlyquestion is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit? starship-design?>>>I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor anysubscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or owner-list addresses. If I get ambitious I could probably even create a digestversion in addition to the simple mail reflector. >>Steve, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposeing. Are you sayingthat when I send a e-mail to listserv@wherever it would automaticallybounce to all the members? Or are you saying that the messages wouldstack up for a while, and then one e-mail would be sent to each of us on aweekly basis (or whenever) and would you be able to handle the addition ofnew members (several hundred?) >>If it is the former, then I don't think that is an improvement, but if it isthe latter, then it sounds like a good idea to me (assuming that LIT doesn'tmove to Urly-bird.com)>Let me restate what I'm proposing:>I would create a mailing list, for the purposes of this example mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu. Mail to mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.eduwould go to all current recipients of this message; it would beimplemented as a mail alias so remailing of messages would be instantand automatic. People could subscribe or unsubscribe by mailing to mini-lit-request@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu or owner-mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu. For now I'd probably just handle the mailinglist manually rather than using automated mailing list software, andconsider the automated mailing list if volume became very high.>If there is interest I could also create a mini-lit-digest that would sendmulti-message digests rather than individual messages. It would be anoption in addition to the mini-lit mail reflector, not a replacement. >I'm proposing this as a convenience to current subscribers to the currentmini-lit. Rather than have to handle a long recipient list or remember whois and isn't on the list, I'm willing to set up a service so that people canjust mail to mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu, which would simplifysubmissions and make it easier for recipients to automatically sort andarchive messages. >Just so you know, hexadecimal.uoregon.edu is an AlphaStation 255/233running Digital UNIX that is permanently connected at the University ofOregon. It's my personal workstation, which is why I can offer a mini-litmailing list service on it -- it's completely under my control and I'm sureit is easily capable of handling the mailing list. >I could also look into the possibility of hosting the list ondarkwing.uoregon.edu, which handles most of the other mailing lists at theU of O. I'm not as sure what the eligibility requirements for having a liston darkwing are, but if we qualify then it would also instantly set thislist up as a Majordomo list and allow automatedsubscription/unsubscription.Oh, I see. Well, That's different then -- Never Mind! ;) Seriously, that sounds good. Answers all my questions. I'm for that. --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say: "Youcan't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the samethief, So what does it really matter? This time I'm voting Libertarian.Harry Browne for President. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ (800) 682-1776-----------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 17:09:45 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Re: Space questions...>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Wed Jul 24 14:29:53 1996 >Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996 >>>So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is nocompetiton, they make back the startup cost. after a few years, somesmaller country decides they want a piece of the pie. So they send theirown mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can alwaysundercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back. Thisis what I was talking about.>>Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some newproduct/technology. So, should every new investor share his profits withall would-be ones? This is just pure socialism, if anything... >No, No you mis-understand me. I meant to suggest that the smallercountries are using the socialism angle (which they know the US willnever accept) to buy time so that they can get their own space program upand running Still I don't understand.Why they want to use something (the "socialism angle") if they know USwill not accept it? (I wonder, though - see the Sea Treaty...). The onlyexplanation for me is they "think socialist" from the start, considering itso natural, that they do not imagine anybody may oppose it (except,possibly, some bloody imperialist - but after some bombs planted here andthere...).And, do you see any of them starting their own space programs up? No, I see only the standard socialist attitude - "give us half of your cow orelse..."-- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:14:54 -0500To: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: Spacequestions...Cc: Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@IONET.NET At 7:24 PM 7/23/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996 >>>So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is nocompetiton, they make back the startup cost. after a few years, somesmaller country decides they want a piece of the pie. So they send theirown mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can alwaysundercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back. Thisis what I was talking about.>>Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some newproduct/technology. So, should every new investor share his profits withall would-be ones? This is just pure socialism, if anything... >>-- Zenon>No, No you mis-understand me. I meant to suggest that the smallercountries are>using the socialism angle (which they know the US will never accept) tobuy time>so that they can get their own space program up and running -->Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html If true, the tactic could back fire. We could just go ahead and start miningwithout U.N. approval. Say U.S., E.S.A. Members, and Russians set up a groupto coordinate operations. They then make agreements, but only with othermembers. They could then later get used to the idea,m and not let futurenewly industrialized nations join the club. I.E. they could allocate allknown resorces to member organization. Future groups would findeverything was already reserved.One other possible factor of course, is the third world is economicallythreatened by space development. Their economies are based on sellingraw materials to the developed world. Space is loaded with ultra highgrade fuel and ore. How would the Saudis react if we started a project torecover oil from near earth comet cores? How would others if they heardwe were going to recover iron, gold, copper, nickel, etc.. fron near earthbodies? We would on the one hand end the possibility of resourceshortages for human history. But also destroy the economies of those whoprofit most from selling the limited resorces.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 17:26:25 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Re: Space questions...>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 17:20:14 1996 >At 7:24 PM 7/23/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >>Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>>>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996 >>>>So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is nocompetiton, they make back the startup cost. after a few years, somesmaller country decides they want a piece of the pie. So they send theirown mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can alwaysundercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back. Thisis what I was talking about.>>>Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some newproduct/technology. So, should every new investor share his profits withall would-be ones? This is just pure socialism, if anything... >>>-- Zenon>>No, No you mis-understand me. I meant to suggest that the smallercountries are>>using the socialism angle (which they know the US will never accept) tobuy time>>so that they can get their own space program up and running -->>Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html >[...]>One other possible factor of course, is the third world is economicallythreatened by space development. Their economies are based on sellingraw materials to the developed world. Space is loaded with ultra highgrade fuel and ore. How would the Saudis react if we started a project torecover oil from near earth comet cores? How would others if they heardwe were going to recover iron, gold, copper, nickel, etc.. fron near earthbodies? We would on the one hand end the possibility of resourceshortages for human history. But also destroy the economies of those whoprofit most from selling the limited resorces.Yes.For me it sounds as more convincing reason (plus socialism, of course...). -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:48:31 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Space questions...Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net At 5:26 PM 7/24/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 17:20:14 1996 >>At 7:24 PM 7/23/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >>>Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>>>>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996 >>>>>So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is nocompetiton, they make back the startup cost. after a few years, somesmaller country decides they want a piece of the pie. So they send theirown mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can alwaysundercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back. Thisis what I was talking about.>>>>Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some newproduct/technology. So, should every new investor share his profits withall would-be ones? This is just pure socialism, if anything... >>>>-- Zenon>>>No, No you mis-understand me. I meant to suggest that the smallercountries are>>>using the socialism angle (which they know the US will never accept)to buy time>>>so that they can get their own space program up and running -->>>Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html >>[...]>>One other possible factor of course, is the third world is economicallythreatened by space development. Their economies are based on sellingraw materials to the developed world. Space is loaded with ultra highgrade fuel and ore. How would the Saudis react if we started a project torecover oil from near earth comet cores? How would others if they heardwe were going to recover iron, gold, copper, nickel, etc.. fron near earthbodies? We would on the one hand end the possibility of resourceshortages for human history. But also destroy the economies of those whoprofit most from selling the limited resorces.>Yes.>For me it sounds as more convincing reason (plus socialism, of course...). >-- ZenonSocialism saying everyone should be rewarded equally regardless of effortor investment. Greed saying, I don't want to lose out and I want some ofwhatever you get.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 18:36:21 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Socialism and others>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 17:51:53 1996 >>Yes.>>For me it sounds as more convincing reason (plus socialism, of course...). >>-- Zenon>Socialism saying everyone should be rewarded equally regardless ofeffort or investment. Greed saying, I don't want to lose out and I wantsome of whatever you get.Nice to hear that at least some Americans know what socialism means ;-))Unfortunately, from my contacts with a number of them Americans, andfrom observing the evolution of US social and political system it seemsthat you are a minority (and threatened by extinction)... Here goes some amusing characterization of various political systems Ihave found recently on Objectivists pages: =======================================Politics Made Simple--------------------Do you have trouble understanding politics? If so, the following primer(thanks to the Manitoban of the University of Manitoba) should clear it upfor you. No bull.Socialism: You have two cows. Give one to your neighbour. Communism: You have two cows. Give both to the government. The government gives you milk.Capitalism: You sell one cow and buy a bull. Facism: You have two cows. Give milk to the government. The government sells it.Nazism: The government shoots you and takes the cows. New Dealism: The government shoots one cow, milks the other, and pours the milk down the sink.Anarchism: Keep the cows. Steal another one. Shoot the government. Conservatism: Freeze the milk. Embalm the cows. Liberalism: Give away one cow. Get the government to give you a new cow. Now give them both away.=======================================FURTHER NOTES (by Zenon):The characterization of Socialism above presents its rather soft,theoretical version.The more real-life version (from my personal experience) would be:Socialism: You have two cows. The government takes one and says that it will give the cow to your neighbour. There was a popular saying in Poland some time ago: "When The Party saysthat it will give us something, then it certainly says that."Similar with Communism. It should be rather: Communism: You have two cows. The government takes both, and gives you one-tenth of the skimmed milk. The rest goes to support theworldwide revolution. Note also, that what you Americans call Liberalism is calledSocialdemocracy in Europe.It is Socialism pretending to be not,and concealing the socialist doings byvery intricate "democratic" (in fact, bureaucratic) procedures. Somethingwe have now in Poland, though mixed more and more with the so-called"Capitalismo", missing from the list above (see e.g. Brasil and severalother South- and Central-American states). It can be characterized asfollows:Capitalismo: You have two cows. You sell one and spend all the money for bribing officials to get a permit to buy a bull. Having now no money tobuy one, you borrow bull's services on black market. You then sell the calfand use all the money to bribe officials for not prosecuting you for theillegal use of the bull...Enjoy and learn ;-)-- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 18:40:06 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSubject: Re: Double messages...Cc: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 18:06:30 1996 >>One more reason to make a regular mailing list for us... >>-- Zenon>And a reason for a central archive!Exactly.Though I will not resigm from keeping mine - central archives have aninfuriating habit to disappear... -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:08:30 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Socialism and othersCc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net At 6:36 PM 7/24/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 17:51:53 1996 >>>Yes.>>>For me it sounds as more convincing reason (plus socialism, ofcourse...). >>>-- Zenon>>Socialism saying everyone should be rewarded equally regardless ofeffort or investment. Greed saying, I don't want to lose out and I wantsome of whatever you get.>Nice to hear that at least some Americans know what socialism means ;-)) Unfortunately, from my contacts with a number of them Americans, andfrom observing the evolution of US social and political system it seemsthat you are a minority (and threatened by extinction)... >Here goes some amusing characterization of various political systems Ihave found recently on Objectivists pages: [...]>-ZenonLoved the list!Given the types of Americans that ran over to the former Soviet [er]'client states' <i.e. slaves> to try to convince you of how great the thirdpath <i.e. real socialism without the guns.> could be. I'm suprized you don'tthink the U.S. is filled with loonitics with PhD's! Hint: We do have clever people over hear. Most get paid a fourtune to stayhere and say things that are actually usefull! >Note also, that what you Americans call Liberalism is calledSocialdemocracy in Europe.>It is Socialism pretending to be not,>and concealing the socialist doings by>very intricate "democratic" (in fact, bureaucratic) procedures. Thats more literally true then you might think. The U.S. had asocialist/comunist party in the 20's and thirties that was very popularamong a lot of elete university and idle rich folks that should have knownbetter. (Same as everywhere. Arrogent rich and powerfull folks who aresure people would all be happy if forced to lived like they wanted themto.) Anyway said com/soc party didn't do very well in elections, andbecame very unpopular during the wars (WW-II and Cold). But if you look atthe party platforms in the 20's and 30's. They were detailing the structureof the current welfare state in the U.S. Effectively they were rejected, buttheir ideas were picked up by the democrates. For some reason they never seem to give the com/socialists credit intheir speaches. ;)Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 19:53:34 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Re: Socialism and others>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 19:11:36 1996 >Loved the list!You are welcome!>Given the types of Americans that ran over to the former Soviet [er]'client states' <i.e. slaves> to try to convince you of how great the thirdpath <i.e. real socialism without the guns.> could be. I'm suprized you don'tthink the U.S. is filled with loonitics with PhD's! In fact, exactly pupils of theirs made the anticommunist revolution in ourcountries.The result - Socialdemocracy+Capitalismo and the return of post-commiesto the rule after several years. Ahh, of course, along the way the"anticommunists" got quite rich and powerful...>Hint: We do have clever people over hear. Most get paid a fourtune to stayhere and say things that are actually usefull! Do not develop an inferiority complex ;-) Here people like me are also aminority, called "zoological anticommunists", "loonies", and many othercolorful names, hardly possible to translate into English. Most of us wentextinct long ago or fled abroad (mostly to US, though now Australia ismore popular - less socialist...) >>Note also, that what you Americans call Liberalism is calledSocialdemocracy in Europe.>>It is Socialism pretending to be not,>>and concealing the socialist doings by very intricate "democratic" (infact, bureaucratic) procedures. >Thats more literally true then you might think. The U.S. had asocialist/comunist party in the 20's and thirties that was very popularamong a lot of elete university and idle rich folks that should have knownbetter. (Same as everywhere. Arrogent rich and powerfull folks who aresure people would all be happy if forced to lived like they wanted themto.) Anyway said com/soc party didn't do very well in elections, andbecame very unpopular during the wars (WW-II and Cold). But if you look atthe party platforms in the 20's and 30's. They were detailing the structureof the current welfare state in the U.S. Effectively they were rejected, buttheir ideas were picked up by the democrates. Guess I have known that... :-))>For some reason they never seem to give the com/socialists credit intheir speaches. ;)Just like here...Speaking of words ("Liberalism" to (re)name "Socialdemocracy" to(re)name "Socialism"), quite a study of Newspeak can be done here(remember "1984"? - it is more true to reality than you might think...).There are certain innocent-looking words that in fact are "negatingwords". Before, such one was just "socialist": "socialist democracy" = "nodemocracy","socialist justice" = "no justice", etc. etc. Now it is simply "social":"social justice" = "injustice" (note the progress...), "social marketeconomy" = "capitalismo", etc. -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 22:05:29 -0400-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net From: Philip Bakelaar<pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: I am lost!OK.. i have several questions.Guys, please tell me that all this knowledge (ya know, the political jokesand all this science stuff) comes with age? I really hope so.Kelly, is there anything I can do to help with the homepage? I can'tremember if you actually asked me to do anything.I am all for the mailing list. As for the AOL idea, it would be just as good.AOL always gets bashed, but they really don't have much problems. Still,the dedicated server HAS to be better than AOL. I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a multi-letter digest weekly.We do cover so much, and even now, I can't remember all that we (well,actually, *you*, not me) havetalked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!) Kelly, are you *THE* senior systems engineer for Magnavox, or are you *A*senior systems engineer.David, (and Kev, or was it Kelly), who have worked at JSC, is that a goodjob? Itsounds like a lot of fun, (relativelyspeaking, of course), and it IS good pay, right?Thats all I can think of for now.Ben-----------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 21:34:39 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Cc: Zenon Kulpa<zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NETSubject: Re: I am lost!Philip Bakelaar wrote:>OK.. i have several questions.>Guys, please tell me that all this knowledge (ya know, the political jokesand all this science stuff) comes with age? I really hope so.yeah, it's the only positive thing about growing old and ugly. ;) <snip>>David, (and Kev, or was it Kelly), who have worked at JSC, is that a goodjob? ItIt Kelly, I work for another Goverment Agency, Defense ContractingManagement Command. We're the guys who's job it is to add so many extraregulations and such on top of the contractors so they don't make too muchprofit when they sell the US a $400.00 hammer. :) >sounds like a lot of fun, (relatively>speaking, of course), and it IS good pay, right?I wouldn't really say it's good pay, but The benifits are good, and as longas the budget is solid, you have a lot of security. Someone in my officesaid the only way he could be fired is if he was caught in bed with thecommander's under-aged son. --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say: "Youcan't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the samethief, So what does it really matter? This time I'm voting Libertarian.Harry Browne for President. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ (800) 682-1776-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:05:19 +0100To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: Weekly newsletter>From Kelly>>From: Ben>>I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a multi-letter digest weekly.We do cover so much, and even now, I can't remember all that we (well,actually, *you*, not me) have>>talked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!) >We really need to get the newsletter system settled out. And startarchiving stuff. I also think the weekly digest is a great idea! Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) meanwith a "weekly digest".- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore? - Do you still wantdaily letters but also a big letter at the week-end composed of all the smaller letters?- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed? Timothy------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: 'Brandon Neill'<neill@math.usu.edu>, 'Steve VanDevender'	 <stevev@efn.org>,David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>Cc: 'Philip Bakelaar' <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'	 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'	 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,'Zenon Kulpa' <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> Cc: "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"<jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>, "'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'" <rddesign@WOLFENET.COM>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" <neill@foda.math.usu.edu>Cc: "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" <mkshp@IONET.NET> Subject: RE: minor stuff...Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:56:33 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT thataddresses>all the various offers. More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today) as I>try to write down what I've been thinking about. Okay, okay, it's been longer than I said it would be (as usual).Here's what I was thinking:I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone who wants to "have" a pieceof it. There would be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites. The linksback and forth would make it look seamless. Each person would be able tomaintain the part that is on their site. Each part would be on a differentsubject. Spreading it out like this would also make a "disaster" (i.e. acrash or someone leaving, or whatever) cause much less damage to thewhole... only to one part.In any case, I'm all for Steve's mailing list.-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:56:33 -0500To: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: I amlost!Cc: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, Zenon Kulpa <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>, KellySt@aol.com,T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET At 9:34 PM 7/24/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Philip Bakelaar wrote:>>OK.. i have several questions.>>Guys, please tell me that all this knowledge (ya know, the politicaljokes and all this science stuff) comes with age? I really hope so.>yeah, it's the only positive thing about growing old and ugly. ;) ><snip>>>David, (and Kev, or was it Kelly), who have worked at JSC, is that a goodjob? It>It Kelly, I work for another Goverment Agency, Defense ContractingManagement Command. We're the guys who's job it is to add so many extraregulations and such on top of the contractors so they don't make too muchprofit when they sell the US a $400.00 hammer. :) What he doesn't say, is that the $400 hammers cost $10 with $390 ofadministration overhead charges, which cover the cost of filling out allthe paperwork for his agency. ;)>>sounds like a lot of fun, (relatively>>speaking, of course), and it IS good pay, right?>I wouldn't really say it's good pay, but The benifits are good, and as longas the budget is solid, you have a lot of security. Someone in my officesaid the only way he could be fired is if he was caught in bed with thecommander's under-aged son. >-->Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html With government agancies like that it takes so much trouble to firesomeone, that they just stuff you in a cornar and wait for you to retire. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:59:00 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Weekly newsletterCc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netAt 2:05 PM 7/25/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >>From Kelly>>>From: Ben>>>I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a multi-letter digest weekly.We do cover so much, and even now, I can't remember all that we (well,actually, *you*, not me) have>>>talked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!) >>We really need to get the newsletter system settled out. And startarchiving stuff. I also think the weekly digest is a great idea! >Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) meanwith a "weekly digest".>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore? - Do you still wantdaily letters but also a big letter at the week-end >composed of all the smaller letters?>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some >handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed? >TimothySome people might want daily letter, some weekly collections. Both couldbe avalible to subscribers. The later would be filed on line for web accessby cyber surfers.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:03:22 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Weekly newsletterCc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netAt 2:05 PM 7/25/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >>From Kelly>>>From: Ben>>>I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a multi-letter digest weekly.We do cover so much, and even now, I can't remember all that we (well,actually, *you*, not me) have>>>talked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!) >>We really need to get the newsletter system settled out. And startarchiving stuff. I also think the weekly digest is a great idea! >Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) meanwith a "weekly digest".>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore? - Do you still wantdaily letters but also a big letter at the week-end >composed of all the smaller letters?>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some >handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed? >TimothyP.S.A summary abstract of the interesting bits in our correspondence wouldbe great!! We cover so much stuff in the various newsletter, we couldwrite text books on the subject (assuming we could hire a librarian!). Butits a pain to search all that (even just the weeklies), and I doubt we couldget anyone to spend the time. If anyone has an Idea on how to do it let meknow. What could we do, set up alt.space.starships? Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:11:39 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:minor stuff...Cc: 'Brandon Neill' <neill@math.usu.edu>, 'Steve VanDevender'		 <stevev@efn.org>,David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>,'Philip Bakelaar' <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'		<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'		<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Zenon Kulpa' <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> At 9:56 AM 7/25/96, David Levine wrote:>>P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT thataddresses>>all the various offers. More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today) as I>>try to write down what I've been thinking about. >Okay, okay, it's been longer than I said it would be (as usual).>Here's what I was thinking:>I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone who wants to "have" apiece of it. There would be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites. Thelinks back and forth would make it look seamless. Each person would beable to>maintain the part that is on their site. Each part would be on a differentsubject. Spreading it out like this would also make a "disaster" (i.e. acrash or someone leaving, or whatever) cause much less damage to thewhole... only to one part.>In any case, I'm all for Steve's mailing list. I could go for various people working on various parts and submiting them.But everyone keeping there part on there system worries me. It wouldalmost gaurentee something was broken or incompatable. Also a lot of us(even in the core group) have school accounts which come and go. Mightwork real well for development thou. Assuming we were really good atcoordination.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:00:14 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: David Levine<David@InterWorld.com>Cc: "'Brandon Neill'" <neill@math.usu.edu>, "'Steve VanDevender'"	 <stevev@efn.org>,"'Philip Bakelaar'" <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"	 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,"'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'"	 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,"'Zenon Kulpa'" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"<jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>, "'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'"<rddesign@WOLFENET.COM>, "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'"<lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>, "'DotarSojat@aol.com'"<DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" <sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>,"'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" <neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'mkshp@IONET.NET'"<mkshp@IONET.NET>Subject: RE: minor stuff...David Levine writes:>Here's what I was thinking:>I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone who wants to "have" apiece of it. There would be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites. Thelinks back and forth would make it look seamless. Each person would beable to>maintain the part that is on their site. Each part would be on a differentsubject. Spreading it out like this would also make a "disaster" (i.e. acrash or someone leaving, or whatever) cause much less damage to thewhole... only to one part.This is quite reminiscent of the DoomWeb project that I am slightlyaffiliated with. They have a mailing list and a central web site that hassome central services and links to other individually-maintained pages. Iwas invited to join their mailing list because I created a Linux DOOM FAQweb page that they wanted to link to from their site main site(http://doomgate.cs.buffalo.edu, soon to be http://www.gamers.org). Otherpeople maintain other FAQ pages served from their individual sites forvarious DOOM versions, and pages for related topics like level editing,deathmatch tournaments, and so on. While it hasn't been very active lately,it has worked out quite well. I agree that a certain amount of coordination is necessary to makesomething like this work. There are advantages to >In any case, I'm all for Steve's mailing list. I think the main question in my mind is what you want to call the mailinglist. I've proposed "mini-lit" and "starship-design", or we could have a(hopefully brief) proposal and voting process. I will also look into the two major options I have, of either hosting thelist on my own machine or seeing if I can have it set up as a Majordomolist on darkwing.uoregon.edu.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: 'Steve VanDevender'<stevev@efn.org> Cc: 'Brandon Neill' <neill@math.usu.edu>, 'Philip Bakelaar'	 <pbakelaar@exit109.com>,'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'	 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'	 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,'Zenon Kulpa' <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>Cc: "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 	<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'" <rddesign@WOLFENET.COM>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>Cc: "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" <neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" <mkshp@IONET.NET>Subject: RE: minor stuff...Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:02:40 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>I think the main question in my mind is what you want to call the mailinglist. I've proposed "mini-lit" and "starship-design", or we could have a(hopefully brief) proposal and voting process. starship-design sounds fine to me - probably to Kelly, too, as we know hedoesn't like "lit"...>I will also look into the two major options I have, of either hosting thelist on my own machine or seeing if I can have it set up as a Majordomolist on darkwing.uoregon.edu.I would think that using Majordomo would be easier for you, asmaintenancewould be much more automatic...-David-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:23:58 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:minor stuff...Cc: 'Steve VanDevender' <stevev@efn.org>, 'Brandon Neill'<neill@math.usu.edu>, 'Philip Bakelaar'		 <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'		<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'		<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Zenon Kulpa' <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>At 1:02 PM 7/25/96, David Levine wrote:>>I think the main question in my mind is what you want to call themailing list. I've proposed "mini-lit" and "starship-design", or we couldhave a (hopefully brief) proposal and voting process. >starship-design sounds fine to me - probably to Kelly, too, as we know hedoesn't like "lit"...Also we might want to start newsletters for the other 3 main sections(assuming they get active.). Having post for marine topic show up instarship design would be confusing.>>I will also look into the two major options I have, of either hosting thelist on my own machine or seeing if I can have it set up as a Majordomolist on darkwing.uoregon.edu.>I would think that using Majordomo would be easier for you, asmaintenance>would be much more automatic...>-DavidMajordomo would be easier and more flexible. Would darkwing.uoregon.edube a perminent site, or would it expore at semesters end? Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:26:05 +0100To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: Site-spreadingDavid wrote:>Here's what I was thinking:>I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone who wants to "have" apiece of it. There would be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites. Thelinks back and forth would make it look seamless. Each person would beable to>maintain the part that is on their site. Each part would be on a differentsubject.One still would need a central homepage OR multiple ones. The latterwould be the only solution to be invulnerable to crashes. The homepagewouldn't need to be updated after every little change, since everyone hashis own subsection in which the most changes would take place.Personally I like this system of satellite sites, it may be a bit more workfor us all, but less for one person in particular. Besides that it givespeople a little bit more freedom.Of course if we have one site that is maintained well, the need forsatellite sites would be less.Timothy-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:25:59 +0100To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: Re: Weekly newsletterTo Kelly:>>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore? - Do you still wantdaily letters but also a big letter at the week-end >>composed of all the smaller letters?>>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some >>handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed? >Some people might want daily letter, some weekly collections. Both couldbe avalible to subscribers. The later would be filed on line for web accessby cyber surfers.So you are saying that YOU (who writes every day) actually would like toread & reply all the letters once a week, instead of (y)our daily letters?I'm amazed that you would say this or do you just mean that it is a greatidea for OTHERS to use?TimothyP.S. About summaries, it's needless to say that it is not the easiest andmost pleasant task.-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 19:37:04 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: RE: minor stuff...>From David@InterWorld.com Thu Jul 25 19:02:28 1996 >>I think the main question in my mind is what you want to call themailing list. I've proposed "mini-lit" and "starship-design", or we couldhave a (hopefully brief) proposal and voting process. >starship-design sounds fine to me - probably to Kelly, too, as we know hedoesn't like "lit"...Ahh, but what abot LIT having also Marine, Near Earth, and Solar SystemDevelopment sections?Should they maintain separate mailing lists? -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:00:35 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com(Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Cc: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "'Steve VanDevender'" <stevev@efn.org>,"'Brandon Neill'" <neill@math.usu.edu>,"'Philip Bakelaar'"		 <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'Kevin 'Tex'Houston'"		 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, "'Zenon Kulpa'"<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>Subject: RE: minor stuff...Kelly Starks writes:>Majordomo would be easier and more flexible. Would darkwing.uoregon.edube a perminent site, or would it expore at semesters end? >KellyI am not a student; I am staff at the University of Oregon ComputingCenter. My accounts don't go away at the end of terms or semesters.-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:02:31 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Weekly newsletterCc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netAt 7:25 PM 7/25/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >To Kelly:>>>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore? - Do you still wantdaily letters but also a big letter at the week-end >>>composed of all the smaller letters?>>>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some >>>handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has beendiscussed? >>Some people might want daily letter, some weekly collections. Bothcould be avalible to subscribers. The later would be filed on line for webaccess by cyber surfers.>So you are saying that YOU (who writes every day) actually would like toread & reply all the letters once a week, instead of (y)our daily letters?I'm amazed that you would say this or do you just mean that it is a greatidea for OTHERS to use?At the moment. I have a lot of free time at work. But back when I didn't, Ifound the weeklys more convent. So I figure both are usefull options. >Timothy>P.S. About summaries, it's needless to say that it is not the easiest andmost pleasant task.Yeah its a great idea, but I'm sure none of use would do it relyably. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:24:40 -0500To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:minor stuff...Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>,"'Steve VanDevender'" <stevev@efn.org>,"'Brandon Neill'" <neill@math.usu.edu>,"'Philip Bakelaar'"		 <pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'Kevin 'Tex'Houston'"		 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, "'Zenon Kulpa'"<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>At 11:00 AM 7/25/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >Kelly Starks writes:>>Majordomo would be easier and more flexible. Woulddarkwing.uoregon.edu be a perminent site, or would it expore at semestersend? >>Kelly>I am not a student; I am staff at the University of Oregon ComputingCenter. My accounts don't go away at the end of terms or semesters. Ah, good point. I didn't remember you were computer center staff. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:22:26 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl(Zenon Kulpa) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: RE: minor stuff...Zenon Kulpa writes:>>From David@InterWorld.com Thu Jul 25 19:02:28 1996 >>>I think the main question in my mind is what you want to call themailing list. I've proposed "mini-lit" and "starship-design", or we couldhave a (hopefully brief) proposal and voting process. >>starship-design sounds fine to me - probably to Kelly, too, as we knowhe doesn't like "lit"...>Ahh, but what abot LIT having also Marine, Near Earth, and Solar SystemDevelopment sections?>Should they maintain separate mailing lists? I will immediately state that my offer is to manage a list specifically forthe Starship Design group that has been mailing each other with big CC:lines for the past several months. At the very least I only want tomaintain one list, although if we want to slightly expand the topic of thatlist to cover those other areas that would be fine with me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'"<zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>, 'Steve VanDevender' <stevev@efn.org>Cc: "'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>, "'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'"	 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"<jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>, "'zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl'" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" <rddesign@wolfenet.com> Cc:"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>, "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@compuserve.com'"<101765.2200@compuserve.com>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu> Cc: "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'"<pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'mkshp@ionet.net'"	 <mkshp@ionet.net>Subject: RE: minor stuff...Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:43:10 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>>Ahh, but what abot LIT having also Marine, Near Earth, and Solar SystemDevelopment sections?>>Should they maintain separate mailing lists? >I will immediately state that my offer is to manage a list specificallyfor the Starship Design group that has been mailing each other with bigCC: lines for the past several months. At the very least I only want to>maintain one list, although if we want to slightly expand the topic ofthat list to cover those other areas that would be fine with me. I agree totally. I'm more interested in the other sections merely havingpages. Not mailing lists.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'KellySt@aol.com'"<KellySt@aol.com>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"	 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,"'stevev@efn.org'" <stevev@efn.org>,"'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>,"'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> To:"'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" <rddesign@wolfenet.com>, "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@compuserve.com'"<101765.2200@compuserve.com>, "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'"<pbakelaar@exit109.com> To: "'mkshp@ionet.net'" <mkshp@ionet.net>, "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> Subject: RE: Weekly newsletterDate: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:44:58 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>P.S. About summaries, it's needless to say that it is not the easiest and>most pleasant task.Ah, that's what "freshman" are for.... Oh, Ben? Just kidding.-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:23:27 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Timothy van der Linden <T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> Cc:KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@CompuServe.COM, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netSubject: Re: Weekly newsletterTimothy van der Linden wrote:>Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) meanwith a "weekly digest".>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore? It is a alot of e-mail, and it tends to de-evolve into chit-chat >- Do you still want daily letters but also a big letter at the week-end >composed of all the smaller letters?The chit-chat is nice, but i would like to see a return of the weeklymonster email that we used to get. another solution would be to start aweb-based bulletin board like Dave had on the Alien Studies directory forLIT. >- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some >handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed? Nice for us, but hard on the person who has to do the work of extracting. --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html PS, How was your trip to America?-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:30:43 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Cc: Timothyvan der Linden <T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@CompuServe.COM, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@IONET.NETSubject: Re: Weekly newsletterKelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:>P.S.>A summary abstract of the interesting bits in our correspondence wouldbe great!! We cover so much stuff in the various newsletter, we couldwrite text books on the subject (assuming we could hire a librarian!). Butits a pain to search all that (even just the weeklies), and I doubt we couldget anyone to spend the time. If anyone has an Idea on how to do it let meknow. What could we do, set up alt.space.starships? Now there's a great idea. What's involved in setting up a usenet group? Theonly problem I'd see is there would be no archive. unless one of us wentand saved all the messages ourselves.--Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39' <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston' <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Cc: 'Timothy van derLinden' <T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'stevev@efn.org'" <stevev@efn.org>,"'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>,"'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" <rddesign@wolfenet.com> Cc:"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>, "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@CompuServe.COM'"<101765.2200@CompuServe.COM>, "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'"<pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" <mkshp@IONET.NET>Subject: RE: Weekly newsletterDate: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:44:25 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>>anyone to spend the time. If anyone has an Idea on how to do it let meknow. What could we do, set up alt.space.starships? >Now there's a great idea. What's involved in setting up a usenet group?>The only problem I'd see is there would be no archive. unless one of uswent and>saved all the messages ourselves.This was brought up a few times a LONG time ago. Basically the problem isthat not everyone gets all (or sometimes ANY) of the alt.* groups, and it's--much-- harder to get a non-alt group formed.-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:52:13 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>Cc: 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39' <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@CompuServe.COM'"<101765.2200@CompuServe.COM>, "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'"<pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" <mkshp@IONET.NET>Subject: Re: Weekly newsletterDavid Levine wrote:>>>anyone to spend the time. If anyone has an Idea on how to do it let meknow. What could we do, set up alt.space.starships? >>Now there's a great idea. What's involved in setting up a usenet group?>>The only problem I'd see is there would be no archive. unless one of uswent and>>saved all the messages ourselves.>This was brought up a few times a LONG time ago. Basically the problemis that not everyone gets all (or sometimes ANY) of the alt.* groups, andit's --much-- harder to get a non-alt group formed. Sure, but there are a lot of people who cruise Usenet far more thanWebsites, and there is an easy way to post and reply. If someone wasn't"getting it", they could be directed to the website and steve's e-mail list.i think it would be a good adjunct to our website and mailing list. but nota replacement for it. And it should have the namealt.interstellar.laser.sail.fry.fry.fry ;) --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Cc: 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@CompuServe.COM'"<101765.2200@CompuServe.COM>, "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'"<pbakelaar@exit109.com> Cc: "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" <mkshp@IONET.NET>Subject: RE: Weekly newsletterDate: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:14:22 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>Sure, but there are a lot of people who cruise Usenet far more thanWebsites,>and there is an easy way to post and reply. If someone wasn't "getting it",>they could be directed to the website and steve's e-mail list. i think itwould>be a good adjunct to our website and mailing list. but not a replacementfor>it. And it should have the name>alt.interstellar.laser.sail.fry.fry.fry ;) I'm just afraid that it would eventually wind up replacing the mailing list,BECAUSE of the ease and number of potential users. And I'd worry thatsomeone on the list -right now- wouldn't have access eventually, becausewe'd move fully to usenet.-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:36:21 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:Weekly newsletterCc: 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston' <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39' <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@CompuServe.COM'"<101765.2200@CompuServe.COM>, "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'"<pbakelaar@exit109.com> At 4:14 PM 7/25/96, David Levine wrote:>>Sure, but there are a lot of people who cruise Usenet far more thanWebsites,>>and there is an easy way to post and reply. If someone wasn't "gettingit",>>they could be directed to the website and steve's e-mail list. i think itwould>>be a good adjunct to our website and mailing list. but not a replacementfor>>it. And it should have the name>>alt.interstellar.laser.sail.fry.fry.fry ;) >I'm just afraid that it would eventually wind up replacing the mailinglist,>BECAUSE of the ease and number of potential users. And I'd worry thatsomeone on the list -right now- wouldn't have access eventually, becausewe'd move fully to usenet.Quick check. ah hum. DOES ANYONE OUT THERE NOT GET ALT.* ACCESS?WAKE UP OUT THERE.I think we can assume if we get no responces, eiather everyone gets it, orthey don't care one way or the other.If nothing else it might expand our submiter base, and get the overhead offour backs. On the other hand it would pull interest away from the LIT site.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:43:17 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "'Brandon Neill'" <neill@math.usu.edu>,"'Steve VanDevender'" <stevev@efn.org>,David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Dave's greatidea...Cc: "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, "'Zenon Kulpa'"<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> At 09:56 AM 7/25/96 -0400, David Levine wrote: >>P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT thataddresses>>all the various offers. More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today) as I>>try to write down what I've been thinking about. >Okay, okay, it's been longer than I said it would be (as usual).>Here's what I was thinking:>I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone who wants to "have" apiece of it. There would be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites. Thelinks back and forth would make it look seamless. Each person would beable to>maintain the part that is on their site. Each part would be on a differentsubject. Spreading it out like this would also make a "disaster" (i.e. acrash or someone leaving, or whatever) cause much less damage to thewhole... only to one part.>In any case, I'm all for Steve's mailing list. I love it!!!!!!!! Hopefully everyone else agrees. I'll have to read the next 20letters to find out, but I think its a great idea! That way, not only canpeople have a piece of the site, but they can have a piece that they areinterested in, which means no one will sometime stop because they got 2bored. I guess there will be conflicts in interest, and who hosts whatpage, but still a great idea!-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:45:29 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: Weekly newsletterCc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, mkshp@ionet.net At 10:03 AM 7/25/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) meanwith a "weekly digest".>>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore? - Do you still wantdaily letters but also a big letter at the week-end >>composed of all the smaller letters?>>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some >>handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed? >>Timothy>P.S.>A summary abstract of the interesting bits in our correspondence wouldbe great!! We cover so much stuff in the various newsletter, we couldwrite text books on the subject (assuming we could hire a librarian!). Butits a pain to search all that (even just the weeklies), and I doubt we couldget anyone to spend the time. If anyone has an Idea on how to do it let meknow. What could we do, set up alt.space.starships? >KellyGuys, I would be willing to be your librarian! Seriously, I'm the ONLYcandidate for this, because every one else has jobs. I am great at summingup and sorting info, and I could make programs to help me... Guys, i wouldLOVE this job! If anyone has objections, tell me..-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:51:13 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "'KellySt@aol.com'"<KellySt@aol.com>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, "'stevev@efn.org'"<stevev@efn.org>,"'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" <jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>,"'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>,"'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: RE: Weekly newsletterAt 02:44 PM 7/25/96 -0400, David Levine wrote: >Ah, that's what "freshman" are for.... Oh, Ben? >Just kidding.Hehe.. David, read my other letter. As I said, I would be willing to do it,especially as I have the most time! Ben-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:53:47 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: Weekly newsletterCc: Timothy van der Linden <T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,101765.2200@CompuServe.COM, mkshp@IONET.NET At 02:30 PM 7/25/96 -0700, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Now there's a great idea. What's involved in setting up a usenet group?The only problem I'd see is there would be no archive. unless one of us went and>saved all the messages ourselves.>-->Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html I could be responsible for librarian and archiver, especially because I havea ZIP drive, and $20 bux for 100 megs I think even my dad will pay once amonth.. If that's enuff space. Anyway, I will do that if you guys want, and Iwould like to do it, cuz then it would give me chances when I'm done tomake programs to search it (which is good practice for me) and eventuallyI might even develop something you guys could use! :) Think seriously.. Iwant to do this. Lemme know ASAP!Ben-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:49:23 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl,rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net From: Philip Bakelaar<pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: RE: minor stuff...At 07:37 PM 7/25/96 +0200, Zenon Kulpa wrote: >Ahh, but what abot LIT having also Marine, Near Earth, and Solar SystemDevelopment sections?>Should they maintain separate mailing lists? >-- ZenonI think they should all be separate. Maybe we don't have to get Steve tohost all the other ones on Majordomo right away, but definetely havingseparate ones is a good idea! Think about getting 30 letters a day (which Isometimes do from this group), but multiply that by 4 or 5 groups, and youHAVE to keep them separated!-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:55:39 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: RE: Weekly newsletterCc: "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@CompuServe.COM'"<101765.2200@CompuServe.COM> At 04:14 PM 7/25/96 -0400, David Levine wrote: >I'm just afraid that it would eventually wind up replacing the mailinglist,>BECAUSE of the ease and number of potential users. And I'd worry thatsomeone on the list -right now- wouldn't have access eventually, becausewe'd move fully to usenet.Not to mention that when it WOULD (no doubt about it, if we make it) wewould have so much junk, chit-chat, and people who don't have anybusiness there flaming other people who have no business there, that itwould NOT BE GOOD! Mailing list is MUCH better, IMHO of course! :) Ben-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:57:19 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: RE: WeeklynewsletterCc: "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@CompuServe.COM'"<101765.2200@CompuServe.COM> At 03:36 PM 7/25/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >Quick check. ah hum. DOES ANYONE OUT THERE NOT GET ALT.* ACCESS?WAKE UP OUT THERE.>I think we can assume if we get no responces, eiather everyone gets it, orthey don't care one way or the other.>If nothing else it might expand our submiter base, and get the overheadoff our backs. On the other hand it would pull interest away from the LITsite.>KellyMake sure you read my last letter, Kelly. I know.. I use newsgroups alot,and what I said would most likely happen. But, is there a way to have apassword or something on a newsgroup? In my opinion, in view of thefacts i stated before, that would be the only way.ben------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: 'Brandon Neill'<neill@math.usu.edu>, 'Steve VanDevender'	 <stevev@efn.org>,'Philip Bakelaar' <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Cc: 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39' <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, 'Zenon Kulpa'<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> Subject: RE: Dave's great idea...Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:58:16 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>I love it!!!!!!!! Hopefully everyone else agrees. I'll have to read the next 20letters to find out, Just a quick comment, Ben. You may want to hold responses on a threaduntil you've read all the messages waiting in your box with the samesubject. Cuts down on a multitude of small messages. Perhaps we should ALL do this more often. David-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:41:00 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden), KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, mkshp@ionet.netFrom: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: WeeklynewsletterAt 02:05 PM 7/25/96 +0100, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >>From Kelly>>>From: Ben>>>I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a multi-letter digest weekly.We do cover so much, and even now, I can't remember all that we (well,actually, *you*, not me) have>>>talked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!) >>We really need to get the newsletter system settled out. And startarchiving stuff. I also think the weekly digest is a great idea! >Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) meanwith a "weekly digest".>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore? - Do you still wantdaily letters but also a big letter at the week-end >composed of all the smaller letters?>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some >handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed? >TimothyI meant that I wanted daily letters AS WELL AS a weekly summary of ALLthe letters, so summaries.. I don't know how other people feel about it, butthat way whoever wants to can just delete all their mail for the week andsave the one weekly one.. I mean, I already have like 200-300 letters fromyou guys, but it could be compressed (weekly) into I guess 4 or 5 letters.Saves no space, but relieves the clutter. Thats IMHO. :)Ben-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:22:46 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "'Brandon Neill'" <neill@math.usu.edu>,"'Steve VanDevender'" <stevev@efn.org>From: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: RE: Dave's greatidea...Cc: "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, "'Zenon Kulpa'"<zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl> At 06:58 PM 7/25/96 -0400, David Levine wrote: >>I love it!!!!!!!! Hopefully everyone else agrees. I'll have to read the next 20letters to find out, >Just a quick comment, Ben. You may want to hold responses on a threaduntil you've read all the messages waiting in your box with the samesubject. Cuts down on a multitude of small messages. >Perhaps we should ALL do this more often. >DavidYea, I usually try to. I don't know why I didn't this time. I guess the sheernumber (35 messages) told me that I would forget my replies by the time Iread all and then got back to my replies. Sorry about that, David. I'll do that from now on.. and your right, ifeveryone did that, it would REALLY cut down on mail.Ben-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:35:32 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: David Levine<David@InterWorld.com>Cc: "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>, "'Steve VanDevender'" <stevev@efn.org>,"'KellySt@aol.com'" <KellySt@aol.com>,"'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'"	 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"<jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>, "'zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl'" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" <rddesign@wolfenet.com>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@compuserve.com'"<101765.2200@compuserve.com>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'"<pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'mkshp@ionet.net'"	 <mkshp@ionet.net>Subject: RE: minor stuff...David Levine writes:>>>Ahh, but what abot LIT having also Marine, Near Earth, and Solar SystemDevelopment sections?>>>Should they maintain separate mailing lists? >>I will immediately state that my offer is to manage a list specificallyfor the Starship Design group that has been mailing each other with bigCC: lines for the past several months. At the very least I only want to>>maintain one list, although if we want to slightly expand the topic ofthat list to cover those other areas that would be fine with me. >I agree totally. I'm more interested in the other sections merely havingpages. Not mailing lists.I have been told that the eligibility for running mailing lists onlists.uoregon.edu is pretty liberal, and that I should have no troublesetting up a majordomo list there. I'm going to put in an applicationthrough their web form and see what happens. When everything goesthrough I'll notify you all about the list subscription/unsubscriptionprocedures and any other relevant administrivia. Since I am a systemadministrator for that machine too I may be able to "preload" the list withour current group of addresses so current members of the CC: group won'thave to subscribe themselves.-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:22:06 -0700 (PDT) -----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu using -f To:kgstar@most.fw.hac.comFrom: majordomo@darkwing.uoregon.eduSubject: Welcome to starship-designReply-To: majordomo@darkwing.uoregon.edu --Welcome to the starship-design mailing list! If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, you can sendmail to "majordomo" with the following command in the body of youremail message:unsubscribe starship-design kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in caseyou don't already have it: [Last updated on: Thu Jul 25 17:19:38 1996] Welcome to the starship-design mailing list! This mailing list is for anyone interested in the practical realities ofinterstellar travel. It is an outgrowth of David Levine's Lunar Institute ofTechnology web site (http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar), particularly theCollege of Starship Design section(http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/starship.html). The original forum hosted atthat web site centered around the development of a hypothetical mannedmission to the Tau Ceti star system by the year 2050. To subscribe, mail to majordomo@lists.uoregon.edu and put the followingline in the body (NOT the subject line) of your message: subscribe starship-design <your email address> Be sure to use your fully-qualified, correct email address whensubscribing.To unsubscribe, mail to majordomo@lists.uoregon.edu and put thefollowing line in the body (NOT the subject line) of your message: unsubscribe starship-design <your email address> You must unsubscribe with the same email address you used to subscribe.If you encounter difficulty in unsubscribing, mail to owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu to request further assistance.-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:02:30 +0100To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: Replies to Kevin and BenTimothy replies to Kevin who wrote:>Now there's a great idea. What's involved in setting up a usenet group?The only problem I'd see is there would be no archive. unless one of uswent and saved all the messages ourselves. I haven't used usenet much, but am told that unmoderated newsgroups areless pleasant to write in than moderated(subscribe) ones. ============================================================================= Timothy replies to Ben who wrote multiple messages: >I could be responsible for librarian and archiver, especially because Ihave a ZIP drive, and $20 bux for 100 megs I think even my dad will payonce a month.. If that's enuff space. Don't worry about buying zip-discs, all letters from the last year of SDdiscussions are less than 5 Mb.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Think about getting>30 letters a day (which I sometimes do from this group), but multiplythat by 4 or 5 groups, and you HAVE to keep them separated!Think about having 400 members in this forum as soon as the LIT-siteopens up again. There are currently over 700 !!! people who ever tried toget subscribed to the old (not working) newsletters. (Of course somemight have want to get unsubscribed, but where never able to). - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Guys, I would be willing to be your librarian! Seriously, I'm the ONLYcandidate for this, because every one else has jobs. I am great at summingup and sorting info, and I could make programs to help me... Guys, i wouldLOVE this job! If anyone has objections, tell me.. Make programs to help you? Do you know that much about neural-netprogramming? Summarizing isn't just glueing everything together, some"chit-chat" may have useful information that just isn't in any separateletter. You may need to keep track of everything that is written in 100letters, not an easy job. The best that you probably could do is get rid of alot of the quotings (you might be able to write a program to help you withthat) but of course sometimes the quotings cannot just be left out. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >I meant that I wanted daily letters AS WELL AS a weekly summary of ALLthe letters, so summaries.. I don't know how other people feel about it, butthat way whoever wants to can just delete all their mail for the week andsave the one weekly one.. I mean, I already have like 200-300 letters fromyou guys, but it could be compressed (weekly) into I guess 4 or 5 letters.Saves no space, but relieves the clutter. I rather have the separate letters, makes searching a little bit easier(assuming that people change the subject-line once in a while). Since you are using Eudora, which has a nice and easy folder capability, itshould not be hard to keep track of the letters. ============================================================================= - End ------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:02:38 +0100To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject:Steve,What is the address to mail the normal messages to, for the majordomolist? Did I overread something?Timothy-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:30:39 -0400-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden), KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, mkshp@ionet.netFrom: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Archiving LIT...At 03:02 AM 7/26/96 +0100, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >Timothy replies to Ben who wrote multiple messages: Sorry bout that! ;)>>I could be responsible for librarian and archiver, especially because Ihave a ZIP drive, and $20 bux for 100 megs I think even my dad will payonce a month.. If that's enuff space. >Don't worry about buying zip-discs, all letters from the last year of SDdiscussions are less than 5 Mb.Well, if I was archiver, I would probably buy one zip-disc then. >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>Think about getting>>30 letters a day (which I sometimes do from this group), but multiplythat by 4 or 5 groups, and you HAVE to keep them separated!>Think about having 400 members in this forum as soon as the LIT-siteopens up again. There are currently over 700 !!! people who ever tried toget subscribed to the old (not working) newsletters. (Of course somemight have want to get unsubscribed, but where never able to). >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - wow that is a lot.>>Guys, I would be willing to be your librarian! Seriously, I'm the ONLYcandidate for this, because every one else has jobs. I am great at summingup and sorting info, and I could make programs to help me... Guys, i wouldLOVE this job! If anyone has objections, tell me.. >Make programs to help you? Do you know that much about neural-netprogramming? Summarizing isn't just glueing everything together, some"chit-chat" may have useful information that just isn't in any separateletter. You may need to keep track of everything that is written in 100letters, not an easy job. The best that you probably could do is get rid of alot of the quotings (you might be able to write a program to help you withthat) but of course sometimes the quotings cannot just be left out. >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Actually, I was not considering doing neural-net programming! :) Theprogram I plan to make is this:1) Get all LIT mailings for week in one folder (already done) 2) Make aprogram to:3) Read my Eurdora Light file4) Archive EVERY SINGLE message5) Make a database with index tables and stuff 6) Make the program to .ZIPthe database when finished, unZIP when starting.7) The program would be searchable, etc. etc. I was figgerin on archiving EVERY single letter, exactly for the reason youstated. there could be good info in chit-chat. If you guys wanted, I couldalso do a "cut down" version, but really, once i develop the program (if youguys give me the go) it won't be hard to archive every mail. but since Iwon't be doing much besides developing the product (i dont believe in afinished computer program), i would have time (if you want) to make a"cut-down" vers... whatda think?>>I meant that I wanted daily letters AS WELL AS a weekly summary ofALL the letters, so summaries.. I don't know how other people feel aboutit, but that way whoever wants to can just delete all their mail for theweek and save the one weekly one.. I mean, I already have like 200-300letters from you guys, but it could be compressed (weekly) into I guess 4or 5 letters. Saves no space, but relieves the clutter. >I rather have the separate letters, makes searching a little bit easier(assuming that people change the subject-line once in a while). Sure, especially if I make this program. You can either keep all yourletters, or they will all be there in one file (weekly) as a database easilysearchable by the program.>Since you are using Eudora, which has a nice and easy folder capability, itshould not be hard to keep track of the letters. Yup.Guys, let me know whatcha think about my proposal. I will probably do itjust for me anyway (#1, as a programming exercise, #2 because it willhelp me keep track of lit) but if you guys say go i will probably have moreof an incentive to finish quicker. :)Ben-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:32:54 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden), KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, mkshp@ionet.netFrom: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: LIT list...Im sure i could be wrong, but i bet some others have my same questions. am i subscribed to this LIT list? is everyone else? so i just have to writea message to <majordomo@darkwing.uoregon.edu>? thanx for the info (sorry if its obvious, i just cant 'member if anyone said anything bout it)Ben-----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:32:01 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: Steve VanDevender<stevev@efn.org>Cc: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" <zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>, "'KellySt@aol.com'"<KellySt@aol.com>,"'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'"	 <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"<T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>, "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"<jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>, "'zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl'" <zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>,"'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" <rddesign@wolfenet.com>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'"<sl0c8@cc.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@compuserve.com'"<101765.2200@compuserve.com>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"<kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'"<pbakelaar@exit109.com>, "'mkshp@ionet.net'"	 <mkshp@ionet.net>Subject: The starship-design mailing list has been created You should have received or will soon receive the information message forthe newly-created starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu mailing list. Pleaselet me know if you get this message but do not get the subscriptionmessage from the Majordomo list. As it turned out, the list application process is started by filling out aweb form, which then automatically mails the system administrators ondarkwing (including me) to ask us to add the list aliases to the/etc/aliases. So, of course, I added them immediately and got the otherpart of the confirmation from Majordomo shortly thereafter. The mailing list is an open list, meaning anyone can subscribe withoutintervention from the list owner (me). However, posting is closed,meaning that only members of the list can post to it (wise in these daysof massive email spamming). It is also configured so that default repliesgo to the author of a message and not to the whole list -- most mailprograms let you choose between individual replies (that go to just theauthor of the message you are replying to) or replying to all recipients ofthe original message (including the list distribution address). The latterwas simply my personal preference, as I find that model better since youcan choose whether to make a personal or list-wide reply; the "reply tothe whole list" option tends to make it very difficult to send personalreplies to list messages.-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:10:55 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: starship-design: the new listSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> Mail postings to the starship-design list to starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu.All current members of the CC: list were automatically subscribed to thestarship-design list when I finished creating it. You do not need tosubscribe yourself unless you want to receive list postings at a differentaddress.-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:19:58 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: starship-design:testing testing... Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.eduPrecedence: bulkReply-To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> im trying this out.. if you guys get this, i guess it worked. if the creator ofthis group (i cant remember if its Tim or Steve) sees this, could theyexplain that replying thing they wrote about in the last letter? I dontunderstand. Do you mean that if David writes a letter, and I reply to it, itwill ONLY go to david, and NOT the whole group?-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f From: KellySt@aol.comDate: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:24:12 -0400To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: Re: starship-design: testing testing... Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: KellySt@aol.comBen,If you hit Reply, it will only reply to the origionator. If you hit reply all itwill send to the origionator, and the group for forwarding to everyone. Theorigionator will get two copies unles you cut his name out of the addresslist.Kelly-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:50:44 -0700From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> To: KellySt@aol.comCc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: Re: starship-design: testing testing... Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org> KellySt@aol.com writes:>The origionator will get two copies unles you cut his name out of theaddress list.lists.uoregon.edu is running sendmail 8.7.5, which is typically configuredto not send duplicate copies of messages to someone who is named morethan once (directly or indirectly) in the recipient list of a message.You should get only one copy of this message, I think.-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:40:42 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:Weekly newsletterCc: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>, "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, "'Kelly Starksx7066 MS 10-39'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>,"'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" <lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>,"'DotarSojat@aol.com'" <DotarSojat@aol.com>, "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'"<neill@foda.math.usu.edu>, "'101765.2200@CompuServe.COM'"<101765.2200@CompuServe.COM> At 6:55 PM 7/25/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >At 04:14 PM 7/25/96 -0400, David Levine wrote: >>I'm just afraid that it would eventually wind up replacing the mailinglist,>>BECAUSE of the ease and number of potential users. And I'd worry thatsomeone on the list -right now- wouldn't have access eventually, becausewe'd move fully to usenet.>Not to mention that when it WOULD (no doubt about it, if we make it) wewould have so much junk, chit-chat, and people who don't have anybusiness there flaming other people who have no business there, that itwould NOT BE GOOD! Mailing list is MUCH better, IMHO of course! :) >BenSo what makes you think we don't bury ourselves in chit-chat and flamesalready? ;)We do want to get more input. Being more visible like that could help. Onthe other hand we'ld wind up endlessly answering "why no warp drives andor UFO engines" questions.FAQ sheets would be vital! I guess thats what the lit site could handel. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:55:20 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Replies to Kevin and BenCc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.netAt 3:02 AM 7/26/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >Timothy replies to Ben who wrote multiple messages: >>I could be responsible for librarian and archiver, especially because Ihave a ZIP drive, and $20 bux for 100 megs I think even my dad will payonce a month.. If that's enuff space. >Don't worry about buying zip-discs, all letters from the last year of SDdiscussions are less than 5 Mb.True, and we'ld want to keep the archives on line so web surfers couldread them.>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>Think about getting>>30 letters a day (which I sometimes do from this group), but multiplythat by 4 or 5 groups, and you HAVE to keep them separated!>Think about having 400 members in this forum as soon as the LIT-siteopens up again. There are currently over 700 !!! people who ever tried toget subscribed to the old (not working) newsletters. (Of course somemight have want to get unsubscribed, but where never able to). And of those only a handful wrote anything. Many Lurkers, few submitters.(Also if we set up a news group(s), we could ignore newsgroup threadsthat involve topics we're not interested in. Such as the face on Mars andUFO groups.) I doubt the actual amount of submissions would increase thatmuch (if we went to weekly newsletters, it would probably decline), butmixing all the differnt topic groups together would expand things and getmessy! >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>Guys, I would be willing to be your librarian! Seriously, I'm the ONLYcandidate for this, because every one else has jobs. I am great at summingup and sorting info, and I could make programs to help me... Guys, i wouldLOVE this job! If anyone has objections, tell me.. >Make programs to help you? Do you know that much about neural-netprogramming? Summarizing isn't just glueing everything together, some"chit-chat" may have useful information that just isn't in any separateletter. You may need to keep track of everything that is written in 100letters, not an easy job. The best that you probably could do is get rid of alot of the quotings (you might be able to write a program to help you withthat) but of course sometimes the quotings cannot just be left out. 'Fraid he's right Ben. Fishing the info out of all of these messages probablycouldn't be automated much. But if you think you have an idea, try it!! Ifyou come up with something we can certainly store it in a subsection ofLIT or SSD (assuming we don't disassemble them). Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:13:47 -0500To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject:starship-design: keep old copy. Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Just as a hint. You might want to keep and old copy of the address list.That way if you want to correspond to one of us, you'll have some way tofind our individual address after we are absorbed into the annonimity ofstarship-design. I.E. we'll no longer have any way of knowing whos in theSSD com link.Hum, I guess that throws out my member list section of LIT. <sigh> Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:09:03 -0500To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@efn.org>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: testing testing... Cc: KellySt@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 11:50 PM 7/25/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >KellySt@aol.com writes:>>The origionator will get two copies unles you cut his name out of theaddress list.>lists.uoregon.edu is running sendmail 8.7.5, which is typically configuredto not send duplicate copies of messages to someone who is named morethan once (directly or indirectly) in the recipient list of a message.>You should get only one copy of this message, I think. But, since I was getting two addresses listed in the meassage "reply to"list, one being the origionator and one being the list. Eudora would addressboth paths. The origionator would get one reply forwarded from the listserver, and another sent directly. This has been a problem on other listservers I've been on.Or are you saying your sender cross checks the CC lists for duplicates tosomeone on the list, and doesn't send to them? KellyP.S.I guess this message should be a test. It lists you and my home accountdirectly, and the list itself.---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu'" <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Subject: RE:starship-design: keep old copy. -----------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:24:40 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0Majordomo will, if I remember correctly, allow you to request a list ofcurrently subscribed members.You send a message with "who starship-design" in the body tomajordomo@lists.uoregon.eduThe results I get from this are:-->>>>who starship-designMembers of list 'starship-design':# list of addresses for starship-designstevev@darkwing.uoregon.eduDavid@InterWorld.comstevev@efn.orgKellySt@aol.comhous0042@maroon.tc.umn.eduT.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nljim@bogie2.bio.purdue.eduzkulpa@ippt.gov.plrddesign@wolfenet.comlparker@destin.gulfnet.comDotarSojat@aol.com101765.2200@compuserve.comkgstar@most.fw.hac.comneill@foda.math.usu.edupbakelaar@exit109.commkshp@ionet.netBTW, excellent work, Steve. This is terrific news. Is there any way to get majordomo to archive automatically? I know youcan get a list of files associated with a group by sending a command tomajordomo (i.e. "index starship-design") and then get those files (i.e. "getstarship-design filename.txt") but don't know how we get them created.... -David>---------->From: 	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com[SMTP:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com] Sent:	Friday, July 26, 1996 9:13 AM>To: 	starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>Subject: 	starship-design: keep old copy. >Just as a hint. You might want to keep and old copy of the address list.>That way if you want to correspond to one of us, you'll have some way to>find our individual address after we are absorbed into the annonimity of>starship-design. I.E. we'll no longer have any way of knowing whos in the>SSD com link.>Hum, I guess that throws out my member list section of LIT. <sigh> >Kelly>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>Sr. Systems Engineer>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company>(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) >---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu'" <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Subject: RE:starship-design: keep old copy. -----------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:24:40 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> Majordomo will, if I remember correctly, allow you to request a list ofcurrently subscribed members.You send a message with "who starship-design" in the body tomajordomo@lists.uoregon.eduThe results I get from this are:-->>>>who starship-designMembers of list 'starship-design':# list of addresses for starship-designstevev@darkwing.uoregon.eduDavid@InterWorld.comstevev@efn.orgKellySt@aol.comhous0042@maroon.tc.umn.eduT.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nljim@bogie2.bio.purdue.eduzkulpa@ippt.gov.plrddesign@wolfenet.comlparker@destin.gulfnet.comDotarSojat@aol.com101765.2200@compuserve.comkgstar@most.fw.hac.comneill@foda.math.usu.edupbakelaar@exit109.commkshp@ionet.netBTW, excellent work, Steve. This is terrific news. Is there any way to get majordomo to archive automatically? I know youcan get a list of files associated with a group by sending a command tomajordomo (i.e. "index starship-design") and then get those files (i.e. "getstarship-design filename.txt") but don't know how we get them created.... -David>---------->From: 	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com[SMTP:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com] Sent:	Friday, July 26, 1996 9:13 AM>To: 	starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>Subject: 	starship-design: keep old copy. >Just as a hint. You might want to keep and old copy of the address list.>That way if you want to correspond to one of us, you'll have some way to>find our individual address after we are absorbed into the annonimity of>starship-design. I.E. we'll no longer have any way of knowing whos in the>SSD com link.>Hum, I guess that throws out my member list section of LIT. <sigh> >Kelly>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>Sr. Systems Engineer>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company>(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) >---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:48:22 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:starship-design: keep old copy. Cc: "'starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu'"<starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> At 9:24 AM 7/26/96, David Levine wrote:>Majordomo will, if I remember correctly, allow you to request a list ofcurrently subscribed members.>You send a message with "who starship-design" in the body tomajordomo@lists.uoregon.edu>The results I get from this are:>-->>>>>who starship-design>Members of list 'starship-design':># list of addresses for starship-design stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu>David@InterWorld.com>stevev@efn.org>KellySt@aol.com>hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>rddesign@wolfenet.com>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>DotarSojat@aol.com>101765.2200@compuserve.com>kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>neill@foda.math.usu.edu>pbakelaar@exit109.com>mkshp@ionet.netThats useful for surveys, but hardly for addressing an E-mail, unless Ikeep a copy of the list. (and remember which address is for who.) Forexample I have 101765.2200@compuserve.com in the curent members list,but I have no idea who they are. Nor did they answer when I asked peopleto check their name in the list.>BTW, excellent work, Steve. This is terrific news. Agreed! Assuming we don't dismantle LIT. This would be a big help inputing automatic subscription to the group into the site. >Is there any way to get majordomo to archive automatically? I know youcan get a list of files associated with a group by sending a command tomajordomo (i.e. "index starship-design") and then get those files (i.e. "getstarship-design filename.txt") but don't know how we get them created.... >-DavidDoes this function store these messages? I thought it just forwardedthem. If so, you could just subscribe an account for the newsletter, fromwhoever winds up maintaining the newsletter site. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:48:22 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:starship-design: keep old copy. Cc: "'starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu'"<starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>, "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 9:24 AM 7/26/96, David Levine wrote:>Majordomo will, if I remember correctly, allow you to request a list ofcurrently subscribed members.>You send a message with "who starship-design" in the body tomajordomo@lists.uoregon.edu>The results I get from this are:>-->>>>>who starship-design>Members of list 'starship-design':># list of addresses for starship-design stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu>David@InterWorld.com>stevev@efn.org>KellySt@aol.com>hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu>T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu>zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl>rddesign@wolfenet.com>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com>DotarSojat@aol.com>101765.2200@compuserve.com>kgstar@most.fw.hac.com>neill@foda.math.usu.edu>pbakelaar@exit109.com>mkshp@ionet.netThats useful for surveys, but hardly for addressing an E-mail, unless Ikeep a copy of the list. (and remember which address is for who.) Forexample I have 101765.2200@compuserve.com in the curent members list,but I have no idea who they are. Nor did they answer when I asked peopleto check their name in the list.>BTW, excellent work, Steve. This is terrific news. Agreed! Assuming we don't dismantle LIT. This would be a big help inputing automatic subscription to the group into the site. >Is there any way to get majordomo to archive automatically? I know youcan get a list of files associated with a group by sending a command tomajordomo (i.e. "index starship-design") and then get those files (i.e. "getstarship-design filename.txt") but don't know how we get them created.... >-DavidDoes this function store these messages? I thought it just forwardedthem. If so, you could just subscribe an account for the newsletter, fromwhoever winds up maintaining the newsletter site. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:52:24 -0700From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>Cc: Starship design group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject:starship-design: Re: Weekly newsletter Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> David Levine wrote:>>Sure, but there are a lot of people who cruise Usenet far more thanWebsites,>>and there is an easy way to post and reply. If someone wasn't "gettingit",>>they could be directed to the website and steve's e-mail list. i think itwould>>be a good adjunct to our website and mailing list. but not a replacementfor>>it. And it should have the name>>alt.interstellar.laser.sail.fry.fry.fry ;) >I'm just afraid that it would eventually wind up replacing the mailinglist,>BECAUSE of the ease and number of potential users. And I'd worry thatsomeone on the list -right now- wouldn't have access eventually, becausewe'd move fully to usenet.This is the "next-step" argument. it says we can't do step A because of thebad conseguences if carried to it's logical next step B. the answer to thisis of course not to do step b if it has bad consequences. Sorry to be pendantic about it, but starting a usenet group in no wayimplies getting rid of the mailing list. Yes, we will have to contend withCrossposts, Spam and Flames. So what? I still think that the benefits ofhaving a usenet group outwiegh the hassles of having a usenet group. --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:55:25 -0700From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Cc: Starship design group<starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject: starship-design: Re: Weeklynewsletter Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.eduPrecedence: bulkReply-To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Philip Bakelaar wrote:>At 10:03 AM 7/25/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>>Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others)mean with a "weekly digest".>>>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore? - Do you still wantdaily letters but also a big letter at the week-end >>>composed of all the smaller letters?>>>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some >>>handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has beendiscussed? >>>Timothy>>P.S.>>A summary abstract of the interesting bits in our correspondence wouldbe great!! We cover so much stuff in the various newsletter, we couldwrite text books on the subject (assuming we could hire a librarian!). Butits a pain to search all that (even just the weeklies), and I doubt we couldget anyone to spend the time. If anyone has an Idea on how to do it let meknow. What could we do, set up alt.space.starships? >>Kelly>Guys, I would be willing to be your librarian! Seriously, I'm the ONLYcandidate for this, because every one else has jobs. I am great at summingup and sorting info, and I could make programs to help me... Guys, i wouldLOVE this job! If anyone has objections, tell me.. Ben, just do it. when you're finished, let us know, and and if you do a badjob, or the list is too long, then we'll let you know. If you go for a coupleof months and no one says good job, try skipping a week and see if anyonecomplains. ;) --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:59:44 -0700From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Cc: Starship design group<starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject: starship-design: Re: Weeklynewsletter Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.eduPrecedence: bulkReply-To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Philip Bakelaar wrote:>At 03:36 PM 7/25/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>Quick check. ah hum. DOES ANYONE OUT THERE NOT GET ALT.* ACCESS?WAKE UP OUT THERE.>>I think we can assume if we get no responces, eiather everyone gets it,or they don't care one way or the other.>>If nothing else it might expand our submiter base, and get the overheadoff our backs. On the other hand it would pull interest away from the LITsite.>>Kelly>Make sure you read my last letter, Kelly. I know.. I use newsgroups alot,and what I said would most likely happen. But, is there a way to have apassword or something on a newsgroup? In my opinion, in view of thefacts i stated before, that would be the only way.>benBen, a password on the group (or having to send all posts through amoderator would defeat the purpose. That purpose being to catch thepeople who are just skimming the titles, and say "hey, that soundsinteresting." When they come in, they should find a FAQ and instrustions onhow to join the mailist. flames and crossposts can be easily ignored.--Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say: "Youcan't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the samethief, So what does it really matter? This time I'm voting Libertarian.Harry Browne for President. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ (800) 682-1776-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:23:56 -0700From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Starship design group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject:starship-design: Mailing listSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Steve,I am getting copies of every mail I send. Is this the default behavior?Also, I've sent several mails using the list, has anyone gotten more thanone copy--Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html-----------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 18:40:47 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net Subject: Re: 2 cents>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Fri Jul 26 18:33:01 1996 >Ric & Denisse Hedman wrote:>>Hi;>>Just wondering if any of my posts are getting through. I have become averitable e-mail "demon" the last few days but haven't seen any responsesto my comments......Everything seems to transmit OK. >>RicRic,>I'm showing one post on tuesday, one on wed. two on thur and this one. The same at my place.Does this qualify as "e-mail demon"? ;-)) -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 18:48:56 +0200From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: starship-design: Thanks to Steve Cc: zkulpa@darkwing.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) Thank you for setting the list!It will help us both technically as well as spiritually - boosts morale tohave something up and running, not only rigged up like during the lastmonths... Now only to have again a nice WWW site(Kelly - how's with my proofread page?)and we may start again to think about starships... ;-)) -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:59:24 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:2 centsCc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,mkshp@ionet.net At 6:40 PM 7/26/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Fri Jul 26 18:33:01 1996 >>Ric & Denisse Hedman wrote:>>>Hi;>>>Just wondering if any of my posts are getting through. I have become averitable e-mail "demon" the last few days but haven't seen any >>responses to>>>my comments......Everything seems to transmit OK. >>>RicRic,>>I'm showing one post on tuesday, one on wed. two on thur and this one. >The same at my place.>Does this qualify as "e-mail demon"? ;-)) >-- ZenonWell, people are very laid back in California. Perhaps they have a verymellow vision of hell? ;)Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:38:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve VanDevender<stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu> To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston"<hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Cc: Starship design group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject: starship-design: Mailing listSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Kevin Houston writes:>Steve,>I am getting copies of every mail I send. Is this the default behavior?Also, I've sent several mails using the list, has anyone gotten more thanone copyIt is normal to receive copies of postings you make to the list when thelist is run by Majordomo.-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:45:29 -0700From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Starship design group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject:starship-design: Kelly's new design Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Kelly,First off, I saw the new web site and it looks good. I was thinking about your idea to use lithium as the sail material, and Iwas wondering if you had considered the fact that lithium absorbshydrogen? I'm pretty sure that at any speed we'd be going, any hydrogenthat came in contact with the lithium would absorb into the sail, possiblychanging it's reflectivity and other properties (such as tensile strengthetc.) This is a separate issue from the "erosion" problem that wasidentified earlier --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:53:25 -0500To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject:starship-design: RE: Dave's great idea... Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) I guess what worries me about breaking LIT down into individual parts, isthinking of who were the big contributers 2 years ago. I mean people whowrote up a lot of the FAQ sheets and 'lessons' and stuff. Most are long gonenow. Going through the lists of old members web pages. About a third ofthose personal web sites are gone. So if we beak LIT up into parts onvarious servers. As people drop out or lose interst those sections coulddrop off. In a year or two LIT could disapear. Also internet service providers vary in access. So parts of lit could beavalible while others drop out. So having a central 'production site', likeSunSite or Kevin's server, that everyone loads finished stuff on wouldseem to be an advantage. Or with Kevin's system, everyone could get anaccount to their section of the site.Thoughts?Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:55:55 -0500To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: Mailing list Cc: Starship design group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 11:23 AM 7/26/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Steve,>I am getting copies of every mail I send. Is this the default behavior?Also, I've sent several mails using the list, has anyone gotten more thanone copy>-->Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Yes I'm getting echos of your stuff.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:08:48 -0500To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com(Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Thanks toSteve Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, zkulpa@darkwing.uoregon.edu At 6:48 PM 7/26/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>Thank you for setting the list!>It will help us both technically as well as spiritually - boosts morale tohave something up and running, not only rigged up like during the lastmonths... >Now only to have again a nice WWW site>(Kelly - how's with my proofread page?) and we may start again to thinkabout starships... ;-)) >-- ZenonTrue!Your proofed version looks good (I changed the clink colors to stand outmore), and I've done some clean up of the Library web links page (Benstaking a look at it now). This has been a bad week for me, but next week Ishould be able to get that all cleaned up, and add a subscription option. Ifwe can get Newsletters sorted out I can add a hook to that in the Starshipdesign home page.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:15:15 -0500To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: Kelly's new design Cc: Starship design group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 11:45 AM 7/26/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Kelly,>First off, I saw the new web site and it looks good. >I was thinking about your idea to use lithium as the sail material, and Iwas wondering if you had considered the fact that lithium absorbshydrogen? I'm pretty sure that at any speed we'd be going, any hydrogenthat came in contact with the lithium would absorb into the sail, possiblychanging it's reflectivity>and other properties (such as tensile strength etc.) This is a separateissue from the "erosion" problem that was identified earlier >-->Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Thanks, glad you liked it.Lithium absorbs H? That has a good side to it. Lithium is burned in a twostage catalitic fusion reaction with hydrogen. I was woundering about asafe place to store it. I never thought of just letting it combinechemically with the lith! :)As to the rest. That could cause weakening. But the sail would only be letout, much less under load, for the early part of the trip accelerating out ofSol. After that it can be pulled in and cast into a solid blockj. If the sailwound stay strong and reflective enough for that long, we could coat it.The added weight should effect the performance that much. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:11:52 -0700From: Kevin 'Tex' Houston <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Cc: Starshipdesign group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject: Capitalist andsocialist HellKelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:>At 6:40 PM 7/26/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Fri Jul 26 18:33:01 1996 >>>Ric & Denisse Hedman wrote:>>>>Hi;>>>>Just wondering if any of my posts are getting through. I have become averitable e-mail "demon" the last few days but haven't seen any >>>responses to>>>>my comments......Everything seems to transmit OK. >>>>RicRic,>>>I'm showing one post on tuesday, one on wed. two on thur and this one. >>The same at my place.>>Does this qualify as "e-mail demon"? ;-)) >>-- Zenon>Well, people are very laid back in California. Perhaps they have a verymellow vision of hell? ;)Reminds me of a joke,Two friends, from the old east and west germany died on the same day andwound up in the line to hell together. After talking about their lives, theyfinally got to the front of the line, only to discover that there wereseparate Hells for Socialist and Capitalist peoples. They agreeed to meetagain in one year to compare notes.The Capitalist said:The days are awful, we are boiled in hot sulfur and tar, and the demons arereally sadistic. But the nights are our own, and we have parties and dancesand all the girls are pretty and all the men are fit, so it's a lot of fun. The Socialist said:We don't have any parties or dances, but most of the time we have no coalfor the fires, if we have coal, then there is no tar, if we have coal and tar,then we are surely out of sulfur. Only once did it happen that all threeitems were in stock, at the same time,and then the comrade demons had toattend a meeting about it, and they were gone all day, so there was notorture. So you see, he said, even our Hell is better. :)--Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say: "Youcan't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the samethief, So what does it really matter? This time I'm voting Libertarian.Harry Browne for President. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ (800) 682-1776-----------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:34:50 -0700 (PDT) -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) From:rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) Subject: Re: 2 cents>At 6:40 PM 7/26/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>>From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Fri Jul 26 18:33:01 1996 >>>Ric & Denisse Hedman wrote:>>>>Hi;>>>>Just wondering if any of my posts are getting through. I have become averitable e-mail "demon" the last few days but haven't seen any >>>responses to>>>>my comments......Everything seems to transmit OK. >>>>RicRic,>>>I'm showing one post on tuesday, one on wed. two on thur and this one. >>The same at my place.>>Does this qualify as "e-mail demon"? ;-)) >>-- Zenon>Well, people are very laid back in California. Perhaps they have a verymellow vision of hell? ;)>Kelly............................................................................ ...............................Kelly;Californians are strange people and we have done our best to keep themout of Washington State but there are some kind of Federal laws they keepbringing up about the right to live where they want or something.... RicVisit RD Designs Home Pageat:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 19:40:41 +0200From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: starship-design: Newsgroup/list/newsletter/digest or not? Cc:zkulpa@ippt.most.fw.hac.comSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) >From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> >Philip Bakelaar wrote:>>At 03:36 PM 7/25/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>>Quick check. ah hum. DOES ANYONE OUT THERE NOT GET ALT.* ACCESS?WAKE UP OUT THERE.>>>I think we can assume if we get no responces, eiather everyone gets it,or they don't care one way or the other.>>>If nothing else it might expand our submiter base, and get the overheadoff our backs. On the other hand it would pull interest away from the LITsite.>>>Kelly>>Make sure you read my last letter, Kelly. I know.. I use newsgroups a lot,and what I said would most likely happen. But, is there a way to have apassword or something on a newsgroup? In my opinion, in view of thefacts i stated before, that would be the only way.Seems I have somehow not received the letters quoted above. Was itbecause of switching to the mailing list mode, or something? >Ben, a password on the group (or having to send all posts through amoderator would defeat the purpose.>That purpose being to catch the people who are just skimming the titles,and say "hey, that sounds interesting." When they come in, they should finda FAQ and instrustions on how to join the mailist. flames and crosspostscan be easily ignored. Yeah, I have used to be for some time on a mailing list linked to anewsgroup (i.e., all messages to one of them were also automaticallyposted on the other) and it worked fine. I personally do not likenewsgroups, preferring mailing lists, for a variety of reasons - ifsomething goes to the newsgroup only, I am sure to lose interest fast...But with such linked arrangement I think it might be interesting, thoughmostly as a means of publicity (though the old LIT site was able to attractquite a number of members without it...). Pity it became defunct in such away.Concerning the individual mail versus weekly bundled newsletter: I am forthe latter. It worked fine at the old LIT days, and certainly cuts downredundant or irrelevant chit-chat (you have a whole series of arguments atone time and in one piece, you have a week to thoroughly think out theresponse(s), etc.), not to say about saving space for long message headersin your mailfile...Subject threads do not help much - for them to work well, the postersshould observe certain discipline in changing subject fields when changingthe subject of their responses - a discipline not visible on any discussionlist or newsgroup I have seen...However, the weekly newsletter is incompatible with a newsgroup, sothey should have to be separate, and it means that in our case themembers will probably split into two separate groups too... Concerning digests - I do not believe them to be either practical orpossible at a weekly basis without a special hired staff ;-0 The periodicaldigests, say once (half) a year or so, in the form of Status Report whichwe started (just started...) some time ago - that is certainly anotherthing, very useful and desirable. The problems are:- time & effort needed to do that (ah, Ben, are you ready?? ;-) -objectivity: it is easy to make the attempted Status Report to become a personal view of its author instead of fair assesment of ideasand arguments appearing in the posts (sorry, Kelly, I think that thisapplies to at least half of your version of the Report :-(-- Zenon------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu'" <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject:RE: starship-design: minor stuff -----------------------------------------------------Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:04:18 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> >wondered why it was not made from the beginning of this "mini-LIT" list(I still really do not understand why the old newsletter arrangementbecame defunct, as the WWW pages on SUNsite are accessible all thetime...).>-- Zenon>From a while ago...The old (OLD) arrangement was all done by hand. At the time I hadn't theknowledge to set up a real automated mailing list. I wrote a few perlroutines to help me sort the mail, then I compiled them by hand intodigests every few days, edited out extraneous characters or what-not, andsent them out. It was time consuming. At one point I accidentallyoverwrote the mailing list address file (without a backup) and that's whenwe switched to normal email.-David-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 13:03:33 -0500To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com(Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design:Newsgroup/list/newsletter/digest or not? Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, zkulpa@ippt.most.fw.hac.com Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 7:40 PM 7/26/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> >>Philip Bakelaar wrote:>>>At 03:36 PM 7/25/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>>>Quick check. ah hum. DOES ANYONE OUT THERE NOT GET ALT.* ACCESS? >>WAKE UP>>>>OUT THERE.>>>>I think we can assume if we get no responces, eiather everyone getsit, or they don't care one way or the other.>>>>If nothing else it might expand our submiter base, and get the >>overhead off>>>>our backs. On the other hand it would pull interest away from the LITsite.>>>>Kelly>>>Make sure you read my last letter, Kelly. I know.. I use newsgroups a >>lot, and>>>what I said would most likely happen. But, is there a way to have a >>password>>>or something on a newsgroup? In my opinion, in view of the facts istated before, that would be the only way.>Seems I have somehow not received the letters quoted above. Was itbecause of switching to the mailing list mode, or something? Hum, it looks like we have not completly worked out the bugs in this listthing. >>Ben, a password on the group (or having to send all posts through amoderator would defeat the purpose.>>That purpose being to catch the people who are just skimming the titles,and say "hey, that sounds interesting." When they come in, they should finda FAQ and instrustions on how to join the mailist. flames and crosspostscan be easily ignored. >Yeah, I have used to be for some time on a mailing list linked to anewsgroup (i.e., all messages to one of them were also automaticallyposted on the other) and it worked fine. I personally do not likenewsgroups, preferring mailing lists, for a variety of reasons - ifsomething goes to the newsgroup only, I am sure to lose interest fast...But with such linked arrangement I think it might be interesting, thoughmostly as a means of publicity (though the old LIT site was able to attractquite a number of members without it...). Pity it became defunct in such away.True. Even in its current state it baits in occasional participants. >Concerning the individual mail versus weekly bundled newsletter: I amfor the latter. It worked fine at the old LIT days, and certainly cuts downredundant or irrelevant chit-chat (you have a whole series of arguments atone time and in one piece, you have a week to thoroughly think out theresponse(s), etc.), not to say about saving space for long message headersin your mailfile...Very true.>Subject threads do not help much - for them to work well, the postersshould observe certain discipline in changing subject fields when changingthe subject of their responses - a discipline not visible on any discussionlist or newsgroup I have seen...>However, the weekly newsletter is incompatible with a newsgroup, sothey should have to be separate, and it means that in our case themembers will probably split into two separate groups too... >Concerning digests - I do not believe them to be either practical orpossible at a weekly basis without a special hired staff ;-0 The periodicaldigests, say once (half) a year or so, in the form of Status Report whichwe started (just started...) some time ago - that is certainly anotherthing, very useful and desirable. The problems are:>- time & effort needed to do that (ah, Ben, are you ready?? ;-) Just doing the few bits I worked up took me quite a bit of time, and theystill arn't on the main server.>- objectivity: it is easy to make the attempted Status Report >to become a personal view of its author instead of fair assesment ofideas and arguments appearing in the posts (sorry, Kelly, I think that thisapplies to at least half of your >version of the Report :-(>-- ZenonOppionions varry. Alternate opinions that are not written up and submittedby their spoaks person, are consigned to cyber space hell. :) Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> >>wondered why it was not made from the beginning of this "mini-LIT" list(I still really do not understand why the old newsletter arrangementbecame defunct, as the WWW pages on SUNsite are accessible all thetime...).>>-- Zenon>>From a while ago...>The old (OLD) arrangement was all done by hand. At the time I hadn't theknowledge to set up a real automated mailing list. I wrote a few perlroutines to help me sort the mail, then I compiled them by hand intodigests every few days, edited out extraneous characters or what-not, andsent them out. It was time consuming. At one point I accidentallyoverwrote the mailing list address file (without a backup) and that's whenwe switched to normal email.Ahh, now it's clear...And a moral from that is:"Either backup it, or else throw it away from the start" ;-)) But certainly the arrangement back then was very handy to us over (t)here- thank you Dave for your work! -- ZenonP.S. Hope now Majordomo will not send all around the world its complaints that zkulpa is unknown at darkwing... -- ZK-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 13:54:15 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:To the Hell with (semi-intelligent) computers... Cc:kgstar@most.fw.hac.comAt 8:28 PM 7/26/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Fri Jul 26 20:11:41 1996 >>>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:08:48 -0500 To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl(Zenon Kulpa) From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Thanks to Steve Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, zkulpa@ >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^>>I kept geting this one bounced back at me. >Ohh, how do I hate those wise computers... >Try to delete from your header any unwanted address(-es) before sendinga message... The Reply All buttons produce such effects, especially whenour Majordomo adds to the headers of messages he distributes out everypiece of an address it finds in the incoming messages, and if it is not full,it adds - guess what? ITS OWN domain - darkwing.uoregon.edu - to it... >Half the intelligence (that is, half-the-machine-intelligence) seemssurely to be much worse than none ;-(( >-- Zenon (still sane, but...)Agreed. It can be just cleaver enough to drive you crazy! Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 20:48:57 +0200From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: starship-design: Digest or not? Cc: zkulpa@ippt.gov.plSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) >From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Fri Jul 26 20:07:17 1996 >>- time & effort needed to do that (ah, Ben, are you ready?? ;-) >Just doing the few bits I worked up took me quite a bit of time, and theystill arn't on the main server.>>- objectivity: it is easy to make the attempted Status Report >>to become a personal view of its author instead of fair assesment ofideas and arguments appearing in the posts (sorry, Kelly, I think that thisapplies to at least half of your >>version of the Report :-(>>-- Zenon>Oppionions varry. Alternate opinions that are not written up andsubmitted by their spoaks person, are consigned to cyber space hell. :) Well, well.I DID write my alternate opinions in my postings to the list but yousomehow subjectively overlooked them when making the digest... So whoshould go to hell, I wonder? ;-)Anyway, Kelly or not Kelly, the problem remains. The problem of time too- I had still no time to assess and comment on Kelly's Report and preparemy alternate version (if Kelly would have taken it into account, is quiteanother matter... ;-(Not to speak about that the Report, though quite extensive, covers may beno more than one-third of the issues discussed before. Folks, are we goingto write a best-selling book on starhips soon? -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 13:54:15 -0500To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject:starship-design: Re: To the Hell with (semi-intelligent) computers... Cc:kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 8:28 PM 7/26/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Fri Jul 26 20:11:41 1996 >>>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:08:48 -0500 To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl(Zenon Kulpa) From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Thanks to Steve Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, zkulpa@ >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^>>I kept geting this one bounced back at me. >Ohh, how do I hate those wise computers... >Try to delete from your header any unwanted address(-es) before sendinga message... The Reply All buttons produce such effects, especially whenour Majordomo adds to the headers of messages he distributes out everypiece of an address it finds in the incoming messages, and if it is not full,it adds - guess what? ITS OWN domain - darkwing.uoregon.edu - to it... >Half the intelligence (that is, half-the-machine-intelligence) seemssurely to be much worse than none ;-(( >-- Zenon (still sane, but...)Agreed. It can be just cleaver enough to drive you crazy! Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 22:27:37 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: starship-design: Re: Archiving LIT... Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Ben wrote:>Actually, I was not considering doing neural-net programming! :) Theprogram I plan to make is this:>1) Get all LIT mailings for week in one folder (already done) 2) Make aprogram to:>3) Read my Eurdora Light file>4) Archive EVERY SINGLE message>5) Make a database with index tables and stuff 6) Make the program to.ZIP the database when finished, >unZIP when starting.>7) The program would be searchable, etc. etc. Eudora can do a search itself, but regardless of that, I think that a privateprogram would be of little use, people just want a form that is accessablefrom the web and uses the data(letters) stored on the web, not on theirown computer.>Guys, let me know whatcha think about my proposal. I will probably do itjust for me anyway (#1, as a programming exercise, #2 because it willhelp me keep track of lit) but if you guys say go i will probably have moreof an incentive to finish quicker. :)If you want to test your programming skills, I can think of some nicepuzzles... Timothy-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 15:25:13 -0500To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject:starship-design: A paper on low cost launchers from earth. Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Thought you might find this old paper interesting. If your not interested inthe current argument about how to reduce launch costs. Sorry I botheredyou.Kelly=============================================================================== A Rocket a Day Keeps the High Costs Away======================================== by John WalkerSeptember 27, 1993There's a pretty general consensus that one of the greatest barriers to theexploration and development of space is the cost of launch to low earthorbit. The incessant and acrimonious arguments among partisans of theShuttle, DC-*, NASP, TSTO, Big Dumb Boosters, bringing back the Saturn V,buying launches from the Russians and/or Chinese, or of developing exoticlaunch technologies (laser, electromagnetic, skyhook, etc.) conceal thecommon premise of all those who argue--that if we could launch payloadsfor a fraction of today's cost, perhaps at a tenth to a thousandth of today'srates of thousands of US$ per kilogram, then the frontier would open asthe great railway to orbit supplanted the first generation wagon trains.The dispute is merely over which launch technology best achieves thisgoal.Conventional wisdom as to why industry and government choose not toinvest in this or that promising launch technology is that there aren'tenough payloads to generate the volume to recoup the development costand, in all likelihood, there never will be. How much would it cost to find out if this is true? What we pay today-----------------Could we take a moment's pause from debating which is the bestsuccessor to the outrageously expensive way we launch now and, asengineers, ask ourselves just why it is that rockets have to cost tens orhundreds of million of US$ per shot. Space FAQ space/launchers givesapproximate per-launch costs of representative systems on whichcommercial launches can be purchased as: Vehicle	Mission cost, US$ millions-------	--------------------------Scout G1	12Pegasus	13.5Soyuz	15Long March 3	33Titan II	43Delta	45 - 50Proton	35 - 70Zenit	65Atlas	45 - 85Ariane 4	65 - 115Energia	110H-2	110Titan III	158Titan IV	315 - 360I've deliberately not included data on performance, reliability, or anythingelse because that would distract us from the most striking observationabout these vehicles; each and every one of them, whatever thetechnology, country of origin, original design intent, launch history, fueland oxidiser, success or failure in the commercial launch market, havemission costs in ranging from tens to hundreds of millions of US$.Why is this? Why do rockets cost so much? What's in a launcher?---------------------Let's simplify the problem by focusing entirely on expendable boostersbuilt with current technologies--those used in the existing launchersnamed above. Further, let's consider only pure liquid-fueled launchers(with the exception of Scout and Pegasus, the core stages of each of theabove launchers are liquid rockets). From an engineering standpoint, then,what is a rocket?Well, it consists of a collection, often vertically stacked, of: Cylindrical fuel and oxidiser tanksRocket engines (including turbopumps, gas generators, etc.) Guidancemechanisms (gimbal joints, hydraulic actuators, APUs) Guidance andnavigation system (IMU, GPS, radio command receiver) plus other ancillary details like range safety receivers and telemetrysensors and transmitters and the like, and that's about it, isn't it? Now the question that comes to mind is this: why should something likethat cost tens to hundreds of millions of US$? Cylindrical fuel tanks aren't that expensive, and they make up most of therocket. (Sure, if you're striving for every last gram of throw-weight in anICBM, you can push the tankage cost as high as you like, but in acommercial launcher?) And rocket engines are finicky, complicated, andintolerant of defects. Well, yes...but so is a DOHC 4 valve per cylinderturbocharged, intercooled V-8 internal combustion engine, and nonethelessone can purchase such an engine, integrated into a ground transportationvehicle, from a number of manufacturers at a cost three orders ofmagnitude less than that charged for the rocket, and expect it to functionwithout catastrophic failures or extensive maintenance, for five years,tens of thousands of kilometers, and thousands of mission cycles.Guidance? Again, as long as we aren't gram-shaving, this is prettymundane stuff--the hydraulics can mostly be adapted from airliners, andthe electronics from a PC--"mem'ry for nothin', chips for free". (For an LEOlauncher we don't need radiation-hardened electronics.) The first mass-produced launcher--------------------------------We've seen from the "standing army" argument for launchers requiringminimal (airline-scale) ground mission support the impact of fixed costson per-mission costs when the number of missions is limited. But thepresence or absence of a "standing army", and the frequency of flights overwhich fixed costs are spread, isn't fundamentally linked to whether thelauncher is reusable or expendable. Consider the following mass-producedexpendable rocket. Number manufactured:	6,240Number launched:	3,590Successes:	2,890 (81%)Failures:	700 (19%)In inventory:	2,100Work in progress:	250Expended in development:	300Development program cost:	US$ 2 billionDevelopment cost per launcher:	US$ 350,512Total manufacturing cost per launcher: US$ 43,750 Marginal cost,launchers 5000+:	US$ 13,000 (Yes, 13K!)These are actual figures for the first mass-produced rocket vehicle, theV2 (A4)--fifty years ago. Prices are in US wartime dollars. Stating the obvious.... The V2 was a suborbital vehicle, intended to lob highexplosive over relatively short distances. Quantity production of the V2 atMittelwerk was accomplished with unpaid slave labour under the brutalrule of the SS. And the failure rate was unacceptable by current standards.And yet...consider that this was the very first space-capable rocket everbuilt. That it was manufactured under the constraints of a war thatGermany was losing, subject to aerial bombardment by night and by day,with continual supply shortages. That, as a consequence of Nazi slave-labour, the desperate war situation, and the state of current technology,no significant automation was applied to its manufacture. In February1945 the underground Mittelwerk V2 factory delivered 800 ready-to-launch V2s; after the war U.S. intelligence expert T. P. Wright estimatedthat at full production, unconstrained by wartime shortages, theMittelwerk plant could have produced 900 to 1000 V2s per month.One thousand rockets per month...fifty years ago. Think about that. A Rocket a Day--------------Suppose we translate these figures, almost incomprehensible by modernstandards (*three hundred* launch vehicles expended in the developmentprogram!) into quasi-modern terms. Consider an orbital launch vehicletwo-stage, say, clean and green thanks to LH2/LOX propulsion in allstages. Engines: J2 or RL10s or follow-on uprated versions (we'll haveplenty of opportunity to develop them and phase them in). A simple twostage cylindrical stack like Titan II, with GPS or ground-commandednavigation. Payload interface is a big ring with bolt-holes and a standardfairing with plenty of volume inside. Sounds a lot like NLS/SpaceLifter, doesn't it? STMEs may have marginaladvantages over sea-level-optimised derivatives of RL10 or J2, butotherwise what's the difference? What if we launch one every day?Three hundred and sixty-five a year.That would be less than one twenty-fifth the production rate of the V2under concentrated Allied bombardment in 1945. How much would each one cost?Assume we expense the development cost or amortise it over asufficiently large number of vehicles that it can be ignored. Further,assume that our bigger, more complicated (two-stage), and higher tech(LH2/LOX instead of Ethanol/LOX), launcher costs ten times as much as theV2, and that 1945 wartime dollars convert into current dollars at 10 to 1.Then, starting with the US$13,000 marginal cost of a V2, we arrive at acost of US$1.3 million per launch vehicle. If we launch one a day our totalvehicle budget will be US$475 million per year--comparable to a singleshuttle flight (no, I don't want to re-open *that* debate again; let's justsay it's the same order of magnitude, OK?). If our mass produced LH2/LOXlauncher equals the performance of the Delta 6925 by placing 3900 kg inLEO, the cost to LEO is US$333/kg; if we achieve better throw-weight,this figure goes down accordingly. If we build the thing so cheap, dumb,and heavy that its payload is only 1000 kg--one metric ton--the costrises to US$1300/kg, which is still a factor of ten lower than thecomparable cost to LEO for Ariane, Atlas, Delta, and Titan. Logistics and Ground Support----------------------------Okay, you say, suppose mass production in these absurd quantities couldactually drive the hardware cost down to less than a million and half perbird, we still haven't accounted for the standing army that launchoperations require. If it takes thousands or tens of thousands of people tolaunch tens of vehicles per year, won't it take hundreds of thousands tolaunch one every day?Well, why should it? Again consider the V2. In the two weeks fromSeptember 18-30 1944, a total of 127 V2s were launched from fivedifferent launch sites. That's an average of almost ten a day. This wasaccomplished by two mobile groups totaling about 6,300 men and 1600vehicles, forced to relocate frequently due to the Allied advance, andsubjected to frequent aerial bombardment. It was estimated that, givenadequate supply, one hundred V2s could be launched per day in a "maximumeffort" by the mobile units, and that a rate of half that, 350 per week, wassustainable. Parkinson's law notwithstanding, why, after fifty years of technologicalprogress and experience in launch operations, should it take tens ofthousands of people and hundreds of millions of dollars to achieve a launchrate one fiftieth that of a V2 group launching the very first operationalballistic missile from a launch site with tanks and infantry advancingtoward it and airplanes flying over dropping bombs on them?Yes, LH2 is trickier to handle; a multistage rocket requires a morecomplicated launch and service facility, and so on. But if we design up-front for a sustained launch rate of one per day, can we not find waysaround these problems? Perhaps a mobile transporter / erector / launcherlike SS24 or Pershing II, with fuel and oxidiser delivered by undergroundpipes that attach to the launch truck. Or something.... Let's tell theengineers to go figure it out and see if they come up with something thatworks.It can't be impossible; the Soviet R-7 series launchers (Vostok / Voskhod/ Soyuz) almost furnish an existence proof. These launchers, despite theirmechanical complexity (4 liquid boosters and 20 first stage engines), aretypically launched one to two days after horizontal delivery to the pad. Onseveral occasions beginning in 1962, two manned launches were madefrom the same pad less than 24 hours apart. On October 11-13 1969, threemanned missions (Soyuz 6, 7, and 8) were launched from the same padwithin 48 hours. If we use contemporary sensors and computers to automate the fuelingand checkout, why does the "launch team" need to be huge? Bob drives thelauncher out to the middle of the circle of concrete, hooks up the hoses,then goes back to the blockhouse and presses the green "Start" button. Anhour later, or so, the "Ready" light comes on, and at High Noon he pushesthe red "Go" button. Sitting immediately to his right Fred, in the blue suit,follows the proceedings on a laptop computer with his index finger on theorange "Oops" button. Assuming things go OK, ten minutes after the ship lifts, Bob goes out anddrives the launch truck back to the garage where it's reloaded with thenext rocket (assume we have ten trucks, or so, to pipeline the setupprocess and account for attrition). Then it's off the cafeteria for lunch.Excess Capacity---------------Every proposal, prosaic or exotic, for a high-capacity, fast-turnaroundlaunch system immediately runs into the objection, "There just aren'tenough payloads to make the system pay. Other than a few establishedmarkets for satellites, there just aren't that many profitable, useful, orinteresting things to do in space right now, and we already have too manylaunchers chasing too few launch customers."This is the heart of the chicken-and-egg problem that is blocking thedevelopment and exploration of space.As long as launches cost tens or hundreds of millions of US$ each, onlygovernments and the very largest corporations will be able to afford them,and only for the most obvious and essential purposes, such ascommunication, earth resource, navigation, and reconnaissance satellites.And as long as the number of such payloads is less than a hundred per year,who is realistically going to pay to develop a launcher capable ofsustained rates many times as great, however cheap it ends up being?You'd just end up with a huge pile of rockets gathering dust waiting forpayloads, wouldn't you? Would you?Consider the following scenario. The Agency announces a procurement inwhich bidders are invited to provide launches, one per day, of 2000 kg ormore to a standard Low Earth Orbit, mating with a specified payload andshroud interface and to a prescribed set of services on a flat concrete pad.A suitably derated payload is specified for polar orbit. Bids of more thanUS$1.25 million per successful launch will be returned unread. The winnerof the bid will be awarded a fixed-price contract for 1000 launches at theagreed price. The first 100 launches will be considered developmentflights and will be purchased at the bid price regardless of success orfailure; afterwardonly successful launches will be purchased. Theprocurement will be re-competed every 1000 launches; if a new vendorwins with a substantially lower cost per launch, they will be granted thesame development period for the first 100 flights. The vendor retains allrights to the launcher design and is free to offer it on the open marketindependent of the Agency.Immediately the launch contract awarded, the Agency announces theavailability of daily flights of 2000 kg to LEO or 1500 kg to polar orbit.Commercial enterprises may purchase launches for whatever purpose theywish at a price equal to the Agency's cost per launch plus 25%. Unsoldflights are offered on a first-come, first-served basis to researchers,government agencies, and individuals. In the event of excess demand, non-commercial proposals will be selected by a peer review process similar tothat used to allocate telescope time at astronomical observatories. Allrisks of launch failure are borne by the provider of the payload; clientsshould note historical failure rates and build appropriate spares. Providerof the payload assumes all liability for it once it separates from Agency'srocket. Payloads shall be delivered by truck to the loading dock of theAgency's Rocket Garage. All payloads must be supplied with adequatedocumentation to verify their content and safety. The payload interfacespecification handbook is available for US$5 from the Agency's toll-freeorder line; payload test and integration jigs are available in the Agency'sregional centres and many major universities around the world. Plans forbuilding your own are available for US$5. Payloads delivered to the Rocket Garage are inspected to ensure they arenot nuclear bombs, sacks of gravel, or otherwise unacceptable. Payloadscontaining propulsion hardware are reviewed especially closely. Assumingno big no-nos, the payload is bolted to the top of the next free rocket, therequested orbit inclination is dialed into the rocket's guidance system,and it moves down the queue toward the pad.The adventurous will recall that the Project Mercury capsule had a launchweight of 1935 kg.If fewer than one payload a day arrives at the Rocket Garage (as is certainat the outset), the Agency will store the excess rockets in the RocketWarehouse out back, while continuing to launch at least one per week withan inert concrete payload (in a rapidly decaying orbit) to maintain launchteam proficiency and verify the continuing quality of rockets supplied bythe vendor.This procurement and offering of launch services is explicitly intended topunch through the chicken-and-egg problem. In essence, the Agency wouldbe spending US$475 million a year on a flock of 365 hens, then waiting tosee if eggs started to show up. This runs the risk, of course, of ending upwith egg all over one's face. Suppose it isn't possible to build a rocket that will orbit half the payloadof a Delta, launched 50 times less frequently than the V2, at a cost tentimes greater than that primitive fifty year old missile. In that casenobody responds seriously to the Agency's bid, and the Agency goes andblows the money on something else, vowing to try again in ten years.Now suppose the rockets do start showing up one a day, and departing onschedule with a success rate that makes the supplier's profit margin juicyenough to fund further R&D, but the payloads don't appear. The Agencyrapidly becomes the butt of every stand-up comic and a motion isintroduced in the Legislature to re-name it the "Orbital Ready-MixDelivery Agency". Well, if that's how it plays out, I guess we all ought topack up and go home then, shouldn't we? Because that would demonstrate,in a real-world test, than there really aren't very many useful things to doin space, after all. That even if we push the marginal cost of launchesdown to zero, nobody will be able to think of anything to use them for, notfor Venus probe science fair projects, personal spysats, hypersonicsurfing demonstration/validation flights, nor microgravity research,material processing, life sciences, remote sensing, VLBI radio astronomy,optical astronomy, or anything else. That other than the existing big-market space applications, there's no earthly reason to leave the Earth,that much of the "space age" was based on faulty premises, that the "finalfrontier" isn't worth exploring. Is this likely to be the case?Loose Ends----------Naturally, things aren't as easy to accomplish in the real world as they areto bandy about on paper. Special relativity limits the velocity with whichone can wave one's arms, and the UNDO button doesn't remove a hole you'vejust bored the wrong place into an expensive piece of metal. Many thingsmight go wrong in an attempt to jump-start the exploitation of space thisway. The two real biggies are discussed above: "it won't work", or "spaceisn't worth it". Here are some others I'm concerned about as well. Range Capacity. Given current low launch rates, configuring a range iscomplicated and takes a long time which couldn't accommodate dailylaunches, especially to a variety of inclinations. And most existingspaceports can't handle both equatorial and polar launches. Maybe weshould plan on Hawaii or Cape York from the outset and get the paperworkstarted to declare an appropriate air and sea exclusion zone (for two hoursper day around the scheduled launch time). Any rocket that meets thelaunch rate and cost criteria cannot require complex or expensive groundinfrastructure.Environmental Issues. One reason for insisting on LH2/LOX rather thanKerosene/LOX, hypergolics, or solids/hybrids is that it's clean. We couldlaunch one every minute and contribute less to global warming, ozonelayer depletion, and other varieties of atmospheric pollution than 747scrossing the Atlantic every day. Also, exhaust and/or fluffy white cloudsresulting from the occasional really bad day aren't harmful to anybody whohappens to be downwind. On the solid waste issue, clearly dropping bigchunks of aluminum and steel into the ocean every day isn't a particularlyelegant way to break the bonds of gravity, not compared to all those sleekpaper spaceplanes on the magazine covers. But I suspect if one were tocompare the total mass wasted in expended stages to that of non-recycledaluminum cans and automobile engines, it would be an insignificantpercentage. It's worth noting that what we're throwing away every dayconsists basically of aluminum and iron with a dash of silicon, and thatthese are three of the four most abundant elements in the Earth's crust.Besides, outside the two-hour launch period, salvage boats are welcome torecover the expended stages and sell them for scrap. Space Junk. So many launches may run the risk of unacceptably pollutingthe near-Earth environment. Clearly, as noted above, care will be requirednot to launch payloads likely to explode or otherwise misbehave in orbit.Payloads will probably have to be released in orbits which guarantee thetimely decay and burn-up of expended upper stages. We need to make surethe upper stage always burns up completely, leaving no chunks to go"thump" in the night. Payloads intended for high-traffic or high-risk finalorbits will require special certification that they will dispose ofthemselves in a responsible manner.Fuel cost. It may be that if we succeed in pushing the hardware cost down,we'll end up with an airline-like situation where fuel cost becomes amajor component of the expense. I don't know how much liquid hydrogengoes for today, and I haven't tried to predict what it would cost whenpurchased in the quantities a launch a day would require. This needs to beworked out. Even daily launches should be a minor consumer in the marketfor liquid oxygen. Payload pyrotechnic servicing. In the discussion of payload delivery andintegration, I confess to glossing over the issue of pre-launch payloadservicing. You can't just take a satellite with a solid kick motor and ahundred kilograms of hydrazine on board down to the DHL counter and shipit to the spaceport. The hazardous aspects of payload processing must bedone in a thoroughly professional manner at a facility close to the launchsite, and the design of these aspects of payloads must be subjected todesign reviews comparable to those currently used for commerciallaunches. This increases the payload cost, but not the launch cost. It willprobably promote the emergence of standard spacecraft buses whichprovide these components of the payload, which can be serviced for launchfor a flat fee by their vendors.Tracking and control. The daily launch rate envisioned here wouldoverwhelm existing ground control facilities. Yet the experience of AMSATand UOSAT proves that sophisticated and expensive gear isn't required tomanage a satellite, at least in LEO. Without access to TDRSS or a globaltracking network, most satellites are going to have be very autonomous,communicating with their makers in occasional high-bandwidth gabfestsas they pop above the horizon. Since it's very likely that one or moremanufacturers will offer a standard satellite bus compatible with thelauncher, providing power, communications, etc., perhaps they will alsomarket access to an uplink and downlink as a value-added service. Fromyour nearest ISDN jack or Internet site, you could send and receive packetsto your satellite and let the bus vendor worry about how and when theywere delivered. Deep space missions are a problem; those who proposethem are going to have to obtain time on a big dish as part of their grantproposal. One hopes that if many missions with clear scientific merit areproposed, money might be forthcoming to expand the existing deep spacecommunication facilities.NASA/Congress will never do it. Who said anything about NASA or the U.S.Congress? A total budget of US$475 million per year is within the reachof many industrialised nations, especially at a time when defencespending is being curtailed, aerospace companies are suffering fromexcess capacity, engineering and manufacturing people are suffering lay-offs, and policy makers worry about how to convert defence industrieswithout harming readiness by eroding the industrial base. US$475 millionper year represents the following percentage of the early 1990's defencebudgets (CIA World Factbook 1992) of the following countries:Country	% Defence Budget---------	----------------South Africa	13.6%Switzerland	10.3%Sweden	7.7%Australia	6.3%Israel	6.3%Spain	5.5%China	4.0% (approx)Italy	2.1%France	1.4%Japan	1.3%Germany	1.2%United Kingdom	1.1%United States	0.15%Any country whose government became convinced that a scheme like thismight give it a long-term (literal) leg up in the world and beyond,eventually, could implement it by reprogramming a small percentage of itsexisting military spending, much of which would flow right back into itsown industries and economy and might be seen to have military value itits own right. For that matter, US$475 million is just about whatMicrosoft will spend on R&D in fiscal year 1993 and a third of their pre-tax profit, and it's less than 3% of Motorola's sales for the same year, sowell-heeled and forward-looking companies (or consortium of such) couldplay as well.Conclusion----------The near-term development of space is constrained by excessive costs oflaunching payloads to low Earth orbit. The development of innovativelaunch technologies is discouraged by an apparent over capacity ofexisting launchers, "where will the payloads come from?", whiledevelopment of payloads for new space applications isn't affordable givencurrent launch costs.Rocketry was originally developed as a branch of artillery. Proponents ofvarious reusable launch technologies argue that as long as an artillery-like model is maintained, affordable launches will never be possible. Butto be effective, artillery must not only have adequate throw-weight, itmust also provide a rapid rate of fire while minimising the cost ofexpended rounds. Today's space launch "artillery" costs tens to hundreds ofmillions of US$ per shot and fires at intervals measured in weeks ormonths. Yes, expendable launchers are artillery, and the ones we havetoday are, as artillery pieces, extremely overpriced and under-performing. The last time liquid rockets were truly treated as artillery was the veryfirst time they were used in war, the A4/V2, fifty years ago. Despite anincreasingly desperate war situation, constant supply problems, and aerialbombardment, V2s were manufactured at rates of up to 800 per month,launched at a comparable pace, and produced at a marginal cost ofUS$13,000 (1945 dollars) for each additional rocket after the first 5000.Making allowances for all the differences between Nazi Germany and themodern world, between a not very militarily useful nor reliable weaponand a viable space launcher, between a one-stage Ethanol/LOX missile anda multistage LH2/LOX launcher, between 1945 wartime dollars and currentcurrency, still one must ask why, after 50 years of technological progressand rocket experience, our current rockets cost not five, not ten, nottwenty times as much as a V2, but between one hundred (Pegasus) and twothousand four hundred (Titan III/SRM) times as much. Is what a Delta 6925does, lobbing 3900 kg into LEO, fundamentally three hundred times moreexpensive than what a V2 did fifty years ago?It is interesting to observe that current launchers are bought and launchedin quantities about a thousand times less than those of the V2 at peakproduction. In no sense are they mass-produced, and therefore they do notbenefit from either the means of mass production (investment in highly-automated manufacturing), nor from the learning curve that results whenone builds hundreds and thousands of an identical product. Could it be thata large component of the present unacceptably high launch cost is bothcause and effect of the present low rate of launches?---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 23:12:39 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: starship-design: Common errorSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Zenon wrote:>Seems I have somehow not received the letters quoted above. Was itbecause of switching to the mailing list mode, or something? I didn't get them either, so you're not alone!-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 23:12:34 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: RE: starship-design: keep old copy. Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) >Majordomo will, if I remember correctly, allow you to request a list ofcurrently subscribed members.>You send a message with "who starship-design" in the body tomajordomo@lists.uoregon.eduI think we should turn this option off, just to be save. I've been on othermailing lists and usually they don't allow that option anymore because itoften has been misused (adverticements?) If some of us (the main members) are interested in that list, then Stevecould easely substract that list and sent it to us. People that write to the list reguarly, will probably use their own name(or at least some alias that doesn't change often) We could also set upsome rules that people have to obey when they are writing to the list, oneof those rules could be that they would need to use their name.Other rules could be to no create havoc or not to flame. Usually those rulesare in the subscription letter: <copied from freeng-list> Rules:1. Ridicule, debunkery and believer/skeptic flamewars are banned. Let's just say that freenrg-list is a big nasty nest of "true believers"(having maybe a bit of rational skepticism,) and let the skeptics leave indisgust. The tone should be one of legitimate disagreements andrespectful debate.2. Heavy on experimentalism. Or theory-led experiments. Or theoretical implications of experiments. This is not a forum for all thosecontroversial physics theories being ignored by mainstream science. TryNEOTECH for this. But if your theory leads directly to interesting,testable, real-world phenomena, then by all means discuss theexperimental possibilites. If your experiments reveal anomalies notpredicted by ANY theory, definitely jump right in and discuss yourfindings. Also it's very acceptable to publish theoretical work on a webpage and announce its presence here.3. Flamewars are banned. If you believe you've been insulted and wish to respond in kind, don't do it on freenrg-list. Use private email. Even better,ask the person if the insult was intentional, since the low- bandwidth ofemail frequently causes misunderstandings. 4. Small email files please. The limit is set to 40K right now, those exceeding the limit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty. Some members are onlimited service, or have to pay for received email. Larger diagrams andgraphics can be mailed to me directly and posted on the webpage forviewing.5. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the ENTIRE message in your reply. Always edit it and delete as much aspossible. The entire message should only be included if: (A) you arereplying to a message that is several days old, or (B) you are doing apoint-by-point reply to many parts of a message. Several users must payby the kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts ofredundant messages are expensive and of little use. So, when including aquoted message in your reply, ALWAYS DELETE SOMETHING. 6. "Junkmail" email advertizing will not be tolerated. While not illegal, widecasting of junk email ads to listserv sites is against the UnwrittenRules of the Internet. Anyone who spams freenrg-list with junkmail willbe referred to the Internet Vigilante Justice team. ;) Occasional on-topicadvertizing by regular freenrg-list users is acceptable.Regarding a newsgroup, why not have two mailing lists, one weekly andone continuous list? One could make both lists so that all letter aredirectly published on the web (or with one or two days in delay, to sift outsome weird stuff if needed).Timothy-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:27:55 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE:starship-design: keep old copy. Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 11:12 PM 7/26/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >>Majordomo will, if I remember correctly, allow you to request a list ofcurrently subscribed members.>>You send a message with "who starship-design" in the body tomajordomo@lists.uoregon.edu>I think we should turn this option off, just to be save. I've been on othermailing lists and usually they don't allow that option anymore because itoften has been misused (adverticements?) Good point.>If some of us (the main members) are interested in that list, then Stevecould easely substract that list and sent it to us. We could list the member on the web page. Thats probably to much troublefor an advertizer to bother with.>People that write to the list reguarly, will probably use their own name(or at least some alias that doesn't change often) We could also set upsome rules that people have to obey when they are writing to the list, oneof those rules could be that they would need to use their name.>Other rules could be to no create havoc or not to flame. Usually thoserules are in the subscription letter: <copied from freeng-list> >Rules:>1. Ridicule, debunkery and believer/skeptic flamewars are banned. >Let's just say that freenrg-list is a big nasty nest of "true believers"(having maybe a bit of rational skepticism,) and let the skeptics leave indisgust. The tone should be one of legitimate disagreements andrespectful debate.>2. Heavy on experimentalism. Or theory-led experiments. Or theoretical >implications of experiments. This is not a forum for all thosecontroversial physics theories being ignored by mainstream science. TryNEOTECH for this. But if your theory leads directly to interesting,testable, real-world phenomena, then by all means discuss theexperimental possibilites. If your experiments reveal anomalies notpredicted by ANY theory, definitely jump right in and discuss yourfindings. Also it's very acceptable to publish theoretical work on a webpage and announce its presence here.I think we could cut this one. Thou keeping things close to topic would begood.>3. Flamewars are banned. If you believe you've been insulted and wish to >respond in kind, don't do it on freenrg-list. Use private email. Even better,ask the person if the insult was intentional, since the low- bandwidth ofemail frequently causes misunderstandings. >4. Small email files please. The limit is set to 40K right now, those >exceeding the limit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty. Some members are onlimited service, or have to pay for received email. Larger diagrams andgraphics can be mailed to me directly and posted on the webpage forviewing.>5. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the >ENTIRE message in your reply. Always edit it and delete as much aspossible. The entire message should only be included if: (A) you arereplying to a message that is several days old, or (B) you are doing apoint-by-point reply to many parts of a message. Several users must payby the kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts ofredundant messages are expensive and of little use. So, when including aquoted message in your reply, ALWAYS DELETE SOMETHING. >6. "Junkmail" email advertizing will not be tolerated. While not illegal, >widecasting of junk email ads to listserv sites is against the UnwrittenRules of the Internet. Anyone who spams freenrg-list with junkmail willbe referred to the Internet Vigilante Justice team. ;) Occasional on-topicadvertizing by regular freenrg-list users is acceptable.>Regarding a newsgroup, why not have two mailing lists, one weekly andone continuous list? One could make both lists so that all letter aredirectly published on the web (or with one or two days in delay, to sift outsome weird stuff if needed).>TimothyThats true. I (or whoever maintains the weekly summaries loaded on theweb could handel this easy enough.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:54:56 -0400-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: starship-design:im saving email!! ;) Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.eduPrecedence: bulkReply-To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> well, now that i cant remember what even one of the 43(!) letters i gottoday are about, i will try to say something.my newsgroup opinion, was, in all essence, mine! :) really, i guess you guysare right, though, and that seems to be the general concensus. but i thinkit was zenon who said he doesn't like newsgroups, well, its the same withme.. just too much to sort through. but MHO doesnt really matter much. anewsgroup would be great for publicity, i didnt even think of that.well, about my program, i'll develop it anyway as a test, and like kevinsaid, it'll just be there for anyone who wants to get it. i usually end uprejecting all ideas for programs that i wont use. that way, if no one elsewants to use them, hey, at least i will! :)tim, you mentioned some programming puzzles? as long as they don'tinvolve screen mode x or windows, im game...does anyone know how hard it is to have your own computer hooked up tothe inet through a web server? i am talking about me buying a computerand setting up the software and all, and just letting the web serverconnect me. please don't tell me about how its impossible, i already knowthat! :) just if anyone has any info, especially on operating systems, andthe type of processor and computer to use..(i have been on someone's homepage that was hosted on a 486 notebook with a 28.8 modem, and it was not THAT sloweven, so this is why i am asking.) like, should i get amotorola processor, a intel, an IBM AIX, should i use Unix, or windows, orsomething else? just any knowledge you might have. kelly, you should check out:http://www.cyberspyder.comit has a program, LinkChek, that will tell ya what links are broken etc. etc.its not the best, but its like the only demo out there, except for the up andcoming personal agent at http://www.hpp.com/1gofetch.html.btw, what exactly do ya want me to do, kelly, on those pages you sent me?check the links? update.. search for more links.. yea, that was one of thethings.. more linx.. im workin on that one.uh.. i cant remember anymore. oh...about davids satellite idea, i think it would be a good idea to have acentral server, but as someone suggested, give out the password to us andlet us update our own sections... much less maintenance, and on one server. you guys are seriously going to publish a book? (i know, your not sure, justone of those dumb questions).. well, lemme know if i could contributesomehow.. one thing i am very good at is proofing (and even correctingcertain times).. i helped my dad proof and type and edit his share of a cd-rom project, it was something like "famous speeches".. anyway, lemmeknow. id be glad to help.ben-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 17:25:20 +0200From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: RE: starship-design: keep old copy. Cc: zkulpa@ippt.gov.plSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) >From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) >>Majordomo will, if I remember correctly, allow you to request a list ofcurrently subscribed members.>>You send a message with "who starship-design" in the body tomajordomo@lists.uoregon.edu>I think we should turn this option off, just to be save. I've been on othermailing lists and usually they don't allow that option anymore because itoften has been misused (adverticements?) Do not see a problem. Majordomo sends the list ONLY to the listsubscribers, otherwise it refuses. I have tested it, while fixing my e-mailaddress problems on this list...>Other rules could be to no create havoc or not to flame. Usually thoserules are in the subscription letter: <copied from freeng-list> >Rules:>[...]Yes, such rules are good, though on our list I see most of them areobserved most of the time (possibly except occassional extensivequotations of whole letters, long header and sig included...) >Regarding a newsgroup, why not have two mailing lists, one weekly andone continuous list? One could make both lists so that all letter aredirectly published on the web (or with one or two days in delay, to sift outsome weird stuff if needed).But then the letter/answer cycle will be still short-term (on thecontinuous list - which causes most of the irrelevant chit-chat), and theweekly on-the-Web "newsletter" in fact can (and will) be used rather asan easy accessible archive only. So, it seems to me we will getdisadvantages of both solutions and forfeit their advantages...-- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 17:24:56 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: Re: starship-design: im saving email!! ;) Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) >well, about my program, i'll develop it anyway as a test, and like kevinsaid, it'll just be there for anyone who wants to get it. i usually end uprejecting all ideas for programs that i wont use. that way, if no one elsewants to use them, hey, at least i will! :)Ha, ha did you check my little creations near my homepage? >tim, you mentioned some programming puzzles? as long as they don'tinvolve screen mode x or windows, im game...You can solve this one just inside the memory of the computer, however atext-output would make it easier for you (and others) to understandthough. The problem is the following game that you probably already haveseen somewhere: "Solitaire" not the card game, but the game where youhave pegs which have to jump over eachother in such a way to minimizethe amount of pegs that are left over.There are a few forms in which this game comes, a triangle or a cross. Isuggest you try making a computer program that finds one or moresolutions to be left with only one peg:O	This is the starting situation:O O	All the O's are pegs and the X is the only hole without a peg.O O O	Of course the algorithm for a cross would be the same, onlyO O O O	the amount of holes would be larger (causing the calculationsO O X O O to take more time)So far I won't give any clues, unless the problem is not clear yet. I can tellyou that the programme isn't very big (fits easely on two pages). >does anyone know how hard it is to have your own computer hooked up tothe inet through a web server?I don't think it is really hard, but I think it is more expensive (at least thesetup). However I too am interested in what it takes to get what yousuggested.>kelly, you should check out:>http://www.cyberspyder.com>it has a program, LinkChek, that will tell ya what links are broken etc.etc. its not the best, but its like the only demo out there, except for the upand coming personal agent at http://www.hpp.com/1gofetch.html.Check out Tucows, "Win software" -> "browser add ons"http://cwis.auc.dk/tucowsSorry Kelly, again no Macintosh software. Timothy-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 17:25:00 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: RE: starship-design: keep old copy. Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Kelly replied:>>If some of us (the main members) are interested in that list, then Stevecould easely substract that list and sent it to us. >We could list the member on the web page. Thats probably to muchtrouble for an advertizer to bother with.I'm not so sure about that...>>2. Heavy on experimentalism. Or theory-led experiments. Or theoretical >>implications of experiments. This is not a forum for all those >I think we could cut this one. Thou keeping things close to topic would begood.I agree.Timothy-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:11:15 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: starship-design: Majordomo chat Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Zenon wrote:>>I think we should turn this option off, just to be save. I've been on othermailing lists and usually they don't allow that option anymore because itoften has been misused (adverticements?) >Do not see a problem. Majordomo sends the list ONLY to the listsubscribers, otherwise it refuses. I have tested it, while fixing my e-mailaddress problems on this list...Yes, but what matters is that bad-willing people have access to namesthat they in theory only few should have access to. >Yes, such rules are good, though on our list I see most of them areobserved most of the time (possibly except occassional extensivequotations of whole letters, long header and sig included...) These days the rules may not be necessary, but believe me, when this listone day will have over a hundred participants, this may become different. >>Regarding a newsgroup, why not have two mailing lists, one weekly andone continuous list? One could make both lists so that all letter aredirectly published on the web (or with one or two days in delay, to sift outsome weird stuff if needed).>But then the letter/answer cycle will be still short-term (on thecontinuous list - which causes most of the irrelevant chit-chat), and theweekly on-the-Web "newsletter" in fact can (and will) be used rather asan easy accessible archive only. No, don't think so, some of the people will be in both lists, and mail theimportant things to the once-a-week group. Of course people could also chit-chat besides the group when someuncertainties are present, I guess that even now that happens. TimothyComments: Authenticated sender is <mkshp@mail.ionet.net> From:"Michael Shipp" <mkshp@ionet.net>To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) -----------------------------------------------------Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 23:00:07 +0000X-Total-Enclosures: 1X-Enclosure-Info: DOS,"ARGOSY.TXT",,,,Unknown Subject: Argosy PaperCc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org Priority: normal>From Brian V. MansurHere it is at last: the Argosy-class starship paper! The whole enchelada(did I spell that right?) is here before you. Attack at will and I'll try torespond to all of the questions next time I get to this terminal. Given thatI took 10 days since my last e-mail, don't expect any quick answers. I'mafraid that my time per visit is limited to a few hours, but I'll do my best.By the way. After reconsidering again, I decided to finalize the paper'stitle as "The Argosy-class Starship" and not "The Tradewinds InterstellarPropulsion System." The Tradewinds are still mentioned so don't getconfused.Understand that this is an amateur's paper which is not meant to be atruly serious scientific proposal for NASA or something. The paper is notvery technical but rather conceptual. And it is my hope that futuredesigners will be able to use some of the information and conceptsprovided in the paper to design their own starships. Finally, realize that this Arogsy design tries to limit its technology towhat we have a fair grasp on in the 1990's. As such, it will take time forthe starship's interstellar propulsion system to be established. KellyStarks has constantly commented that no one would be willing to wait thedecades and centuries that the design needs to be successful. I agree fully.But as technology breakthroughs continue, someone can come back to theArogsy design and perhaps modify it in some way to make it doable. Have fun.Live long through relativistic travel.Final, Final note about the paper.DO NOT USE WORD WRAP WHEN READING!!!In Christ,Mikehttp://www-origins.uoknor.edu/~mshipp/welcome.htm -------------- Enclosure number 1 ---------------- * This message contains the file 'ARGOSY.TXT', which has been *uuencoded. If you are using Pegasus Mail, then you can use * the browser'seXtract function to lift the original contents * out to a file, otherwise youwill have to extract the message * and uudecode it manually.begin 660 ARGOSY.TXTM5&AE($%R9V]S>2UC;&%S<R!3=&%R<VAI<`T*8GD@0G)I86X@5BX@36%N<W5RM#0H-"E!O<W1E9"!*=6QY(#(W+"`Q.3DV#0H-"EM&:6=U<F4@,3H@3&%B96QEM9"!%>'1E<FYA;"!6:65W(&]F($%21T]362!);G1E<G-T96QL87(@0W)U:7-EM($UO9&5=#0H-"CT]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]M/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/0T*M0V]N=&5N=',-"-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 15:43:04 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To all,My copy of the "argossi" document we got from Brian has some strange(erronous) cut and pastes in it. Am I the only one? If so would someonesent me a good copy (ASCII preferred).Here are some of the strange cut and pastes: (The [BLEEP] are mine)Reflective SailJust what is this reflective sail? It is a super-thin, highly reflectiveshe[BLEEP]The Argosy-class Starshipby Brian V. MansurPosted July 27, 1996[Figure 1: Labeled External View of ARGOSY Interstellar Cruise Mode] ============================================================================== ContentsDesign Overviewpayload and the drive module remain as one unit. Both the habitat and thepayload/drive modules are tethered to the mast module on the endopposite to the sail cable connection. The mast module acts as a connectorbetween the huge, but comparatively light-weight sail and the rotatinghab and payload/drive modules. The centrifugal force from the rotationgives the crew [BLEEP]Mass	kilogram	kgTime	second	sElectric current	ampere	ATemperature	kelvin	KSome SI Derived Units------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Physical Quantity	Name of Unit Symbol SI Unit------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Frequency	hertz	Hz	s^-1Energy	joule	J	kg-m^2/s^2Force	newton	N	kg-m/s^2Pressure	pascal	Pa	kg/m-s^2Power	watt	W	kg-m^2/s^3Electric charge	coulomb	C	A-sElectric potential volt	V	kg-m^2/A-s^3{The document ends suddenly with}SI Base Units------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Physical Quantity	Name of Unit Symbol------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Length	meter	m[BLEEP]-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 11:00:23 -0400-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden), starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: starship-design:Re:Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> At 03:43 PM 7/28/96 +0100, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >To all,>My copy of the "argossi" document we got from Brian has some strange(erronous) cut and pastes in it. Am I the only one? If so would someonesent me a good copy (ASCII preferred).>Here are some of the strange cut and pastes: (The [BLEEP] are mine)>Reflective Sail>Just what is this reflective sail? It is a super-thin, highly reflectiveshe[BLEEP]The Argosy-class Starship>by Brian V. Mansur>Posted July 27, 1996>[Figure 1: Labeled External View of ARGOSY Interstellar Cruise Mode] >============================================================================== Contents>Design Overview>payload and the drive module remain as one unit. Both the habitat and thepayload/drive modules are tethered to the mast module on the endopposite to the sail cable connection. The mast module acts as a connectorbetween the huge, but comparatively light-weight sail and the rotatinghab and payload/drive modules. The centrifugal force from the rotationgives the crew [BLEEP]Mass	kilogram	kg>Time	second	s>Electric current	ampere	A>Temperature	kelvin	K>Some SI Derived Units>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Physical Quantity	Name of Unit Symbol SI Unit>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Frequency	hertz	Hz	s^-1>Energy	joule	J	kg-m^2/s^2>Force	newton	N	kg-m/s^2>Pressure	pascal	Pa	kg/m-s^2>Power	watt	W	kg-m^2/s^3>Electric charge	coulomb	C	A-s>Electric potential volt	V	kg-m^2/A-s^3>{The document ends suddenly with}>SI Base Units>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Physical Quantity	Name of Unit Symbol>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Length	meter	m[BLEEP]I didn't even recieve a copy, so if anyone sends one to Tim, please send oneto me! Thanx.Ben-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f 