-----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:49:54 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: im saving email!! ;) Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 6:54 PM 7/26/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >well, now that i cant remember what even one of the 43(!) letters i gottoday are about, i will try to say something.>my newsgroup opinion, was, in all essence, mine! :) really, i guess youguys are right, though, and that seems to be the general concensus. but ithink it was zenon who said he doesn't like newsgroups, well, its the samewith me.. just too much to sort through. but MHO doesnt really mattermuch. a newsgroup would be great for publicity, i didnt even think of that.It would get use out into the great sea of alt.'s. Certainly good forvisibility.>well, about my program, i'll develop it anyway as a test, and like kevinsaid, it'll just be there for anyone who wants to get it. i usually end uprejecting all ideas for programs that i wont use. that way, if no one elsewants to use them, hey, at least i will! :)>tim, you mentioned some programming puzzles? as long as they don'tinvolve screen mode x or windows, im game...>does anyone know how hard it is to have your own computer hooked up tothe inet through a web server? i am talking about me buying a computerand setting up the software and all, and just letting the web serverconnect me. please don't tell me about how its impossible, i already knowthat! :) just if anyone has any info, especially on operating systems, andthe type of processor and computer to use..>(i have been on someone's homepage that was >hosted on a 486 notebook with a 28.8 modem, and it was not THAT sloweven, so this is why i am asking.) like, should i get a>motorola processor, a intel, an IBM AIX, should i use Unix, or windows, orsomething else? just any knowledge you might have. >kelly, you should check out:>http://www.cyberspyder.com>it has a program, LinkChek, that will tell ya what links are broken etc.etc. its not the best, but its like the only demo out there, except for the upand coming personal agent at http://www.hpp.com/1gofetch.html.>btw, what exactly do ya want me to do, kelly, on those pages you sentme? check the links? update.. search for more links.. yea, that was one ofthe things.. more linx.. im workin on that one.More links, and helping to sort them out. I've done a bit more work, and I'lltry to upload a new set in a day or two. Definatly more links, especially for ocean stuff. >uh.. i cant remember anymore. oh...>about davids satellite idea, i think it would be a good idea to have acentral server, but as someone suggested, give out the password to us andlet us update our own sections... much less maintenance, and on one server. >you guys are seriously going to publish a book? (i know, your not sure,just one of those dumb questions).. well, lemme know if i could contributesomehow.. one thing i am very good at is proofing (and even correctingcertain times).. i helped my dad proof and type and edit his share of a cd-rom project, it was something like "famous speeches".. anyway, lemmeknow. id be glad to help.>benHaven't seriously discussed a book. It would take a lot of work striping outand condence it down into a book, but we do have the material and a bookwould reach a lot of people a web site wouldn't. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:52:23 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: Majordomo chat Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 1:11 AM 7/28/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >Zenon wrote:>>>Regarding a newsgroup, why not have two mailing lists, one weekly andone continuous list? One could make both lists so that all letter aredirectly published on the web (or with one or two days in delay, to sift outsome weird stuff if needed).>>But then the letter/answer cycle will be still short-term (on thecontinuous list - which causes most of the irrelevant chit-chat), and theweekly on-the-Web "newsletter" in fact can (and will) be used rather asan easy accessible archive only. >No, don't think so, some of the people will be in both lists, and mail theimportant things to the once-a-week group. So whats wrong with that? Thats how we handeled stuf for the first year. >Of course people could also chit-chat besides the group when someuncertainties are present, I guess that even now that happens. >TimothyKelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:04:37 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject:starship-design: Re:Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 3:43 PM 7/28/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >To all,>My copy of the "argossi" document we got from Brian has some strange(erronous) cut and pastes in it. Am I the only one? If so would someonesent me a good copy (ASCII preferred).Your doing better than me. I got 5 fragments of a UU file. When I findwhere I let a UUdecode utility I'll see what it looks like. Brian, please send ascii, or at least uncompressed. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSr. Systems EngineerMagnavox Electronic Systems Company(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:24:49 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: starship-design: im savingemail!! ;) Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduAt 08:49 AM 7/29/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>btw, what exactly do ya want me to do, kelly, on those pages you sentme? check the links? update.. search for more links.. yea, that was one ofthe things.. more linx.. im workin on that one.>More links, and helping to sort them out. I've done a bit more work, andI'll try to upload a new set in a day or two. >Definatly more links, especially for ocean stuff. Oh.. in that case, I will get right to work. I was sitting in limbo herewondering "duh.. whadda i do?".. I'll send you something tonite most likely.Ben-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:24:49 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: starship-design: im savingemail!! ;) Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> At 08:49 AM 7/29/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>btw, what exactly do ya want me to do, kelly, on those pages you sentme? check the links? update.. search for more links.. yea, that was one ofthe things.. more linx.. im workin on that one.>More links, and helping to sort them out. I've done a bit more work, andI'll try to upload a new set in a day or two. >Definatly more links, especially for ocean stuff. Oh.. in that case, I will get right to work. I was sitting in limbo herewondering "duh.. whadda i do?".. I'll send you something tonite most likely.Ben-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu'" <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject:starship-design: Out Of Touch-----------------------------------------------------Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:31:17 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> I may be out of touch for the next few days. As you may know, we'reworking on a multiplayer realtime game. Big demo for prospective clientscoming up in a few days, so its crunch time for me.Let me just say that I'm learning how beautiful java is. I prototyped a lotof our server-side stuff in java because of the ease of programmingthreads and network stuff compared to C or C++. Now that I have to do thedamn thing in C++, I'm learning what a pain it can be.David-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:10:23 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: starship-design: Double replies with reply-to-all Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To Kelly (and Steve),Kelly, when you reply to me and hit the reply-to-all button, I get doublemessages, apparently majordomo isn't as smart as we would have hoped. This is what the significant part of the header says: To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: Majordomo chat Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduTimothy-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 07:45:50 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: Double replies with reply-to-all Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 11:10 AM 7/30/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >To Kelly (and Steve),>Kelly, when you reply to me and hit the reply-to-all button, I get doublemessages, apparently majordomo isn't as smart as we would have hoped. >This is what the significant part of the header says: >To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: Majordomo chat Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>TimothyYeah we're all geting double copies. Sometimes even if we we don't replyto all.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'Berman, Andrea'"<andrea.berman@spmail.jsc.nasa.gov>, "'starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu'" <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>,"'Levine, Howard'" <hlevine@erols.com>,"'Brian_Levine_at_pnpur1@mail.brodeur.com'"<Brian_Levine_at_pnpur1@mail.brodeur.com>, "'Harris, Craig'"<craig.harris@compudata.com>, "'Faye, Hillary'" <HillaryF@cmbinfo.com> To:"'Jackson, Kelly'" <kjteacher1@aol.com>, "'Rosenthal, Matt'"	 <mattr@mit.edu>,"'Levine_M'" <LevineM@po1.phl.bls.gov>,Mark Miles External <Mark@intermail.com> Subject: starship-design: FW:Interesting thought -----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:30:37 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> I thought this was humorous. Well, okay, frightening is more like it. -David>---------->From: 	DaVe McComb>Sent: 	Tuesday, July 30, 1996 9:16 AM>To: 	Development>Subject: 	FW: Interesting thought>From a friend of mine at Microsoft (just what you would expect). >>>>>Michael Jordan makes over $300,000 a game or $10,000 a minute(assuming 30 minutes/game). Assuming $40 million in endorsements nextyear, he'll be making $178,100 a day(working or not)! If he sleeps 7 hoursa night, he makes $52,000 every night while visions of sugarplums dancein his head. If he goes to see Independence Day, it'll cost him $7.00, buthe'll make $18,550 while he's there. He makes >>>>$7,415/hr more>>>>>than minimum wage and $3,710 while watching each episode ofFriends. If he wanted to save up for a new Acura NSX ($90,000) it wouldtake him only 12 days. If someone were to hand him his salary andendorsement money, they would have to do it at the rate of $2.00 everysecond. He could take 1/100,000th of his income and buy some poorcollege student 5200 packages of Ramen. If you were given a tenth of apenny for every dollar he made, you'd be living comfortably at $65,000 a >>>>year.>>>>>Next year, he'll make more than twice as much as all of our pastpresidents for all of their terms combined, and if you win the lottery, youwill still only get 1/100th of his salary each year. >>>>>*****BUT*****>>>>>Jordan will STILL have to earn this income for 270 more years tohave a net worth equivalent to that of Bill Gates! >>>>>MORAL: STAY IN SCHOOL, GET AN EDUCATION, and BUY MICROSOFTPRODUCTS >>>					GO GEEKS!-----------------------------------------------------Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 21:48:32 +0200From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)To: Kryswalker@aol.com, KellySt@aol.com, sdudley@ix.netcom.com, schlegel@rmc1.crocker.com, JohnFrance@aol.com,mark_jensen@cpqm.mail.saic.com, DTaylor648@aol.com,hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,mkshp@ionet.net, kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSubject: Re: Engineers Explained>From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 30 21:32:26 1996 >>Engineers Explained>>[...]That was ingenious indeed!True to the last letter(I must know - I am an engineer by education...) :-)))) Is Bob to figure out how to build a starship? NEVER!!! -- Zenon-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 14:34:41 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: starship-design: Re: Double replies with reply-to-all Sender:owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To Kelly,Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.hughes-defense-comm.com) bydinkel.civ.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA08522 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for <T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>); Tue, 30 Jul1996 14:48:02 +0200Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.hughes-defense-comm.com[151.168.2.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP idFAA07172 for <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>; Tue, 30 Jul 199605:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Why is it than that I get one Email directly from most.fw.hac.com (first)and the other via darkwing.uoregon.edu (last)? I've two solutions either you hit the reply-to-all button, or darkwing isable to remove any trace of ever having received that message. Tim-----------------------------------------------------X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f -----------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 09:41:15 -0500To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: Re: Double replies with reply-to-all Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 2:34 PM 7/31/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >To Kelly,>Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.hughes-defense-comm.com) bydinkel.civ.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA08522 >(5.67b/IDA-1.5 for <T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl>); Tue, 30 Jul1996 14:48:02 +0200>Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.hughes-defense-comm.com[151.168.2.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP idFAA07172 for <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>; Tue, 30 Jul 199605:48:27 -0700 (PDT) >Why is it than that I get one Email directly from most.fw.hac.com (first)and the other via darkwing.uoregon.edu (last)? >I've two solutions either you hit the reply-to-all button, or darkwing isable to remove any trace of ever having received that message. >TimI'ld bet on #1. I'm not sure I trust darkwing. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------==========================================================Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:17:26 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)From: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Engineers Explained Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduAt 09:44 AM 7/31/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >Ah, yes we need more Bobs to threaten us with. <!!> You know if we don'thurry up, ISP (Interstellar Propulsion Society) will finish before us. ><He he. Theres always a Bob somewhere.> >KellyInterstellar Propulsion Society? Try IPS, Kelly! :) BTW, whats the INet address? I think I might join them instead. I'll evenbet their leader is a guy named... Bob! (Seriously, whats the INet address, though?) Ben=============================================================X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 12:19:44 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)Subject: Re: starship-design: Double replies with reply-to-all Sender:owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) >I would encourage people on the list to always check the headers ofreplies to list messages. A moment of editing the headers to just looklike:>To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>will keep people from getting duplicate list messages. Thanks Steve, this shows that not I but Kelly is crazy ;) TimothyP.S. Yes, I'm crazy but only in the right way. (what ever that is)=============================================================X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 08:01:27 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: Re: Engineers Explained Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com(Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu At 9:17 PM 7/31/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >At 09:44 AM 7/31/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>Ah, yes we need more Bobs to threaten us with. <!!> You know if we don'thurry up, ISP (Interstellar Propulsion Society) will finish before us. >><He he. Theres always a Bob somewhere.> >>Kelly>Interstellar Propulsion Society? Try IPS, Kelly! :) >BTW, whats the INet address? I think I might join them instead. I'll evenbet their leader is a guy named... Bob! >(Seriously, whats the INet address, though?) >BenIts in the library web pages. The ones you've been working on? ;)http://www.tyrian.com/IPS/They have a good table of contents, but last time I checked, few contents. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------=============================================================X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Thu, 1 Aug 96 14:57:34 +0200From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: Re: starship-design: Re: Engineers Explained Cc: zkulpa@ippt.gov.plSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) >From pbakelaar@exit109.com Thu Aug 1 03:17:46 1996 >At 09:44 AM 7/31/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>Ah, yes we need more Bobs to threaten us with. <!!> You know if we don'thurry up, ISP (Interstellar Propulsion Society) will finish before us. >><He he. Theres always a Bob somewhere.> >>Kelly>Interstellar Propulsion Society? Try IPS, Kelly! :) >BTW, whats the INet address? I think I might join them instead. I'll evenbet their leader is a guy named... Bob! >(Seriously, whats the INet address, though?) Look at the list of space links I have sent you! In case you are too lazy ;-) ,here goes: http://www.tyrian.com/IPS/-- Zenon=============================================================X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 08:01:27 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:starship-design: Re: Engineers Explained Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com(Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 9:17 PM 7/31/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >At 09:44 AM 7/31/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>Ah, yes we need more Bobs to threaten us with. <!!> You know if we don'thurry up, ISP (Interstellar Propulsion Society) will finish before us. >><He he. Theres always a Bob somewhere.> >>Kelly>Interstellar Propulsion Society? Try IPS, Kelly! :) >BTW, whats the INet address? I think I might join them instead. I'll evenbet their leader is a guy named... Bob! >(Seriously, whats the INet address, though?) >BenIts in the library web pages. The ones you've been working on? ;)http://www.tyrian.com/IPS/They have a good table of contents, but last time I checked, few contents. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------=============================================================X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:31:31 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Engineers Explained Cc: zkulpa@ippt.gov.plSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> At 02:57 PM 8/1/96 +0200, Zenon Kulpa wrote: >>From pbakelaar@exit109.com Thu Aug 1 03:17:46 1996 >>At 09:44 AM 7/31/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>>Ah, yes we need more Bobs to threaten us with. <!!> You know if we don'thurry up, ISP (Interstellar Propulsion Society) will finish before us. >>><He he. Theres always a Bob somewhere.> >>>Kelly>>Interstellar Propulsion Society? Try IPS, Kelly! :) >>BTW, whats the INet address? I think I might join them instead. I'll evenbet their leader is a guy named... Bob! >>(Seriously, whats the INet address, though?) >Look at the list of space links I have sent you! In case you are too lazy ;-), here goes: >http://www.tyrian.com/IPS/>-- ZenonYou actually thought I wasn't lazy, Zenon?!? :) Kelly, I'm real sorry about those pages. I will do something RIGHT THISSEC! :) I will try to get back to ya l8r tonite.Ben================================================Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 19:02:37 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: starship-design: Re:Engineers Explained X-Attachments:D:\BEN\WORKING\KELLY\DONE\HOTLISTS.HTM; Kelly, here is your sorted HotList page.. Um.. Space Islands (www.spaceislands.com) was not a valid address. ???<html><head><title>LIT Hotlists</title></head><body><b>LIT LINKS</b><ul><LI> <AHREF="http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042/asimov.html">Kevins LIT data </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://165.254.130.90/"> David's WebServer </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/sdhp.html">Starship Design </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/explorer.html"> Heavy Explorer-classStarships </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/refrlink.html">LIT ref WEB links </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042/"> Kevin and GennyHouston's home page </A> <LI> <A HREF="sunsite.unc.edu"> sunsite </A></ul><b>SPACE ORGANIZATIONS & PROJECTS</b><ul><LI> <A HREF="http://www.setiquest.com/"> SETIQuest OnLine! </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.space-access.org/"> Space Access Society </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.ksc.nasa.gov/ksc.html"> NASA|Kennedy Space CenterHome Page </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.im.lcs.mit.edu/bh/"> BlackHorse </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/delta-clipper/title.html"> Delta Clipper|SSRT Program </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.pal.xgw.fi/hew/flora"> Orion paper document </A> <LI><A HREF="http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/"> Project Galileo (JPL) </A><LI> <A HREF="http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/index.html"> LIT </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.interworld.com/"> InterWorld Home page </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.cweb.com/resources/"> Carrer Resource Center </A><LI> <A HREF="http://www.nanothinc.com:80/FocusWeb/"> FocusWeb HomePage </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.tyrian.com/IPS/"> InterstellarPropulsion Society </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.sover.net:80/~geoffk/"> THE ELECTROMAGNETICPROPULSION HOMEPAGE </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.nas.nasa.gov/NAS/SpaceSettlement/75SummerStudy/Table_of_Contents1.html"> The book - Space Settlements: a design Study</A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.astro.nwu.edu/lentz/space/ssi/home-ssi.html"> Space Studies Institute </A> </ul><b>SPACE & SCIENCE LINKS</b><ul><LI> <A HREF="http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneill/space/"> Space Available</A> <LI> <AHREF="http://rlv.msfc.nasa.gov/RLV_HTMLs/LIBGen.html/RLV_HTMLs/LIBGen.html/"> Access To Space address 2 </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.slac.stanford.edu/library/nobel.html"> Internetrefernce list (dewey decimal) </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://s1.ganet.net/~wm0/mtest0.htm"> William Mook's SpaceTravel Page </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://rlv.msfc.nasa.gov/RLV_HTMLs/LIBGen.html/"> Access toSpace Study </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/"> Basicsof Space Flight </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.magick.net/mars"> Marsdirect </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.reston.com/sdri/sdri.html"> SpaceData Resources and Information </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://btree.lerc.nasa.gov/NASA_TV/NASA_TV.html"> NASATelevision on CU-SeeMe </A> <LI> <AHREF="ftp://explorer.arc.nasa.gov/pub/SPACE/FAQ/eder_transport_list">Dani Eder list </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.music.qub.ac.uk:80/~amon/IslandOne/MMSG/"> nano andspace </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.webhelp.com/future.htm"> Future</A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.reston.com/"> Reston Communications</A> <LI> <A HREF="http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/petaflops/peta.html">PetaFLOPS Enabling Technologies and Applications </A> </ul><b>SPACE IMAGES</b><ul><LI> <A HREF="http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/html/home.htm"> NASA - JSCDigital Image Collection </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/html/sl2.htm"> Skylab images 2 </A></ul><b>SPACE FUN</b><ul><LI> <A HREF="http://www.hyperion.com/lurk/lurker.html"> B5 home </A><LI> <A HREF="http://www.scifi.com/"> Sci-Fi Channel: The Dominion </A><LI> <AHREF="http://pathfinder.com/@@C8G47pA6wwEAQDCH/Babylon5/trading.html"> Special Elements: TRADING CARDS </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://pathfinder.com/@@C8G47pA6wwEAQDCH/Babylon5/base.html"> Babylon 5 - Warner brothers site </A> </ul><b>OTHER HOTLISTS</b><ul><LI> <A HREF="http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Web/references.html"> On-lineReference Works </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/mwm/www/home.html"> MarkMaimone's Home Page </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.im.lcs.mit.edu/bh/out.html"> other SSTO | RLV relatedprojects </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.nas.nasa.gov/NAS/SpaceSettlement/"> SpaceSettlement (YAHOO) </A> </ul><b>OTHER WEB RESOURCES & INTERESTING LINKS</b> <ul><LI> <A HREF="http://www.cnn.com/"> CNN Interactive </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html"> The Blue Ribbon Campaign forOnline Free Speech </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.altavista.digital.com/"> Alta Vista: Main Page (DECsearch engine) </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.cnet.com/"> c|net onlinefront door </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www4.internet.net/cgi-bin/getNode?node=1&&session=3025863"> Welcome to ISN (Internetshopping) </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.excite.com/"> excite Netsearch</A> <LI> <A HREF="http://nearnet.gnn.com/gnn/wic/alph.toc.html"> AllCatalog Entries </A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.macworld.com/">Macworld Online </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/stores%2Ficnmrn/5198-6213156-360664"> Welcome to Amazon.com Books! </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.infoseek.com/"> Infoseek Home Page </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.yahoo.com/"> Yahoo </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.info.apple.com/"> Apple Support and Information Web</A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.realaudio.com /"> RealAudio Homepage</A> <LI> <A HREF="http://www.grotesque.com/html/gotg_entrance.html">Dan's Gallery of the Grotesque: Entartete Kunst </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://www.bunting.com/"> Computer Man </A> <LI> <AHREF="http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunarbin/webnexus.cgi"> WebNexus </A> <LI><A HREF="http://postcards.www.media.mit.edu/Postcards/"> The ElectricPostcard </A> </ul></body></html>=============================================================X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 02:08:20 +0100To: DotarSojat@aol.com, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com From:T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Subject:Surface Ultraviolet Radiation Levels Have Increased from 1979 to 1992 Douglas IsbellHeadquarters, Washington, DC	August 1, 1996(Phone: 202/358-1753)Allen KenitzerGoddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD (Phone: 301/286-8955)RELEASE: 96-153SURFACE ULTRAVIOLET RADIATION LEVELS HAVE INCREASED FROM 1979 TO1992 Solar ultraviolet radiation reaching the Earth's surface has increased overlarge regions of the planet during the past 15 years, as the amount oftotal ozone in the atmosphere has decreased, according to a scientificpaper published in the August 1 issue of Geophysical Research Letters. Scientists and others have a keen interest in ozone depletion, given thatthe increased amounts of ultraviolet radiation that reach the Earth'ssurface because of the ozone loss, have the potential to increase theincidence of skin cancer and cataracts in humans, cause harm to some foodcrops, and interfere with marine life.Ozone, a molecule made up of three atoms of oxygen, is found in theatmosphere between the ground and about 37 miles in altitude. Ozoneabsorbs ultraviolet radiation from the Sun and shields life on Earth fromits harmful effects. Because the risks of further increases in ultraviolet radiation are serious,scientists around the world are working to improve our currentunderstanding of how much of the ozone-related change in the atmosphereis caused by humans and how much is attributable to natural processes,such as shifts in atmospheric dynamics, variable volcanic activity orlong-term cyclical changes in solar radiation. The finding, derived from extensive analysis of data from the Total OzoneMapping Spectrometer (TOMS) instrument flown aboard NASA's Nimbus-7satellite, is based on the known relationship between atmospheric ozonedepletion and the resulting decrease in protection from ultravioletradiation (UV-B, 290 nanometers to 320 nanometers). The accuracy of theTOMS-derived surface UV-B values has been validated by comparison withseveral ground-based spectrometers in Canada, New Zealand, and SouthAmerica."The increases are largest in the middle and high latitudes, where mostpeople live, and where the majority of the world's agricultural activityoccurs," said Dr. Jay R. Herman, an atmospheric scientist at NASA'sGoddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD, and the lead author of thepaper, "UV-B increases (1979-1992) from decreases in total ozone."In the paper, Herman finds that annual average UV-B exposure hasincreased by 6.8 percent per decade at 55 degrees north latitude, wheremajor populations in countries such as England, Germany, Russia andScandinavia reside. At 55 degrees south latitude, which includes thesouthern portions of Argentina and Chile, the increase has been 9.9percent per decade. In North America, the changes are smaller since mostof the population lives below 55 degrees. The UV-B changes for regionsnear the Canadian border show about a 4 percent increase per decade."This confirmation that we can use a space-based sensor like TOMS tomeasure long-term global surface ultraviolet radiation levels representsa very powerful new tool for Earth scientists and others to use both nowand in the future," said Dr. Robert Harriss, director of the science divisionof NASA's Office of Mission to Planet Earth, Washington, DC.Studies have shown that ozone depletion is caused by complex, coupledchemical reactions. Emissions of human- manufacturedchlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), which break down into ozone-depleting formsof chlorine, have led to reduced levels of atmospheric ozone. If unchecked,the continued build-up of CFCs, historically used in refrigeration,electronics, and insulating materials, could lead to additional ozone lossworldwide. However, international agreements signed in recent years haveled to sharply reduced usage of CFCs, which should lead to the slowrecovery of the ozone layer. Already there are initial indications that thereduced CFC usage is effective in slowing the build-up of troposphericchlorine.During its lifetime on the Nimbus-7 satellite, the TOMS helped make"ozone" a household word through its false-color images of the Antarctic"ozone hole," which forms from September through November each year.The NASA-developed instrument, which measures ozone indirectly bymonitoring ultraviolet light scattered by the atmosphere, produces dailymaps of the global distribution of ozone in Earth's atmosphere and of thesurface UV.Another Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer was launched on July 2, 1996,aboard a dedicated NASA Earth Probe satellite called TOMS/EP. To ensurethat such global ozone data will be available throughout the next decade,NASA plans to continue the TOMS program using both U.S. and internationalspacecraft. Japan's Advanced Earth Observing Satellite will carry a TOMSinto orbit during its scheduled launch on August 16, and a fifth TOMSinstrument is being prepared for flight in 2000 aboard a Russianspacecraft.TOMS is part of NASA's Mission to Planet Earth, a long- term, coordinatedresearch effort to study the Earth as a global system. The TOMSinstruments are managed by Goddard for the Office of Mission to PlanetEarth. -end-=============================================================X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:16:04 -0500To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: whatelse?Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 7:09 PM 8/1/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >what else do you want me to do?>Weblinks.htm is sorted...>Space_we.htm is sorted...>Nasa_web.htm is sorted...>exotic_t.htm looks good...>space_or.htm looks great...>whaddya want me to do now?>ya know, you might want to add>my javascript proggies page, or>not.. tell me if ya do, cuz im>gonna take down my LIT site soon.>ok l8r>benAh, thought I mentioned that I already went ahead and sorted theweblinks? I asked you to search for more links related to marine stuff. (Don't you just hate coordination foul ups?) I'll check your sort against mine and keep the best of both. The Jave links would be good, but first we need to get all the old stufffrom the old computer center loaded into the new one and sorted out. I'll try to load my latest copies of the LIT areas into Daves W/S today sowe can have the same cut to work off of. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------=============================================================X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:26:04 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re:Surface Ultraviolet Radiation Levels Have Increased from 1979 to 1992Cc: DotarSojat@aol.com, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com At 2:08 AM 8/2/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >Douglas Isbell>Headquarters, Washington, DC	August 1, 1996>(Phone: 202/358-1753)>Allen Kenitzer>Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD (Phone: 301/286-8955)>RELEASE: 96-153>SURFACE ULTRAVIOLET RADIATION LEVELS HAVE INCREASED FROM 1979TO 1992 >Solar ultraviolet radiation reaching the Earth's surface has increasedover large regions of the planet during the Interesting data. Thou the press release does jump to unrelatedconclusions: >Studies have shown that ozone depletion is caused by complex, coupledchemical reactions. Emissions of human- manufacturedchlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), which break down into ozone-depleting formsof chlorine, have led to reduced levels of atmospheric ozone. --->---- international>agreements signed in recent years have led to sharply reduced usage ofCFCs, which should lead to the slow recovery of the ozone layer. Alreadythere are initial indications that the reduced CFC usage is effective inslowing the build-up of tropospheric chlorine.Which are stated as facts, thou they are under debate or contradicted byother data. But then this is an election year. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------===========================================Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 18:31:07 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: what else?At 09:16 AM 8/2/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >Ah, thought I mentioned that I already went ahead and sorted theweblinks? I asked you to search for more links related to marine stuff. Oops.. OK I will search for marine stuff. >(Don't you just hate coordination foul ups?) YES! ahhhhh! :)>I'll check your sort against mine and keep the best of both. >The Jave links would be good, but first we need to get all the old stufffrom the old computer center loaded into the new one and sorted out. >I'll try to load my latest copies of the LIT areas into Daves W/S today sowe can have the same cut to work off of. >KellyHey, I thought you worked for Magnavox?? Why does your signaturesuddenly say Hughes Defense or sumthin like that? Anyway, just email me with any other stuff you want me to do. Ben===========================================Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 19:16:14 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) From: PhilipBakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: Re: what else?Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) X-Attachments: D:\BEN\WORKING\KELLY\MARINE~1.HTM; At 09:16 AM 8/2/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >I asked you to search for more links related to marine stuff. Check these out. I commented on a few, they should bew of big help. Tellme if these are the type of marine science links you want. I wasn't sure ifyou wanted like millenial org type links, or standard science, or both, orboth and more??? OK l8rBen<html><head><title>Marine Science Linx</title></head><body><h2>Marine Science Links</h2><ul><li><ahref="http://www.scils.rutgers.edu/~jesposit/edu.html">EducationalResources</a> <li><a href="http://atlas.lmi.org/navy/nlccg.html">NLCCGInfo</a> <li><ahref="http://www.lib.noaa.gov/japan/nonmarine.html">Marine Science andTechnology Panels #1</a> - <b>POTENTIAL GOLDMINE!</b> <li><ahref="http://www.lib.noaa.gov/japan/marine.html">Marine Science andTechnology Panels #2</a> - <b>POTENTIAL GOLDMINE!</b> <li><ahref="http://alamut.lifesci.ucla.edu/msc/">Marine Science Center HomePage</a> <li><a href="http://www.stnet.com/index.html">STNHomepage</a> <li><ahref="http://www.curtin.edu.au/curtin/dept/design/STOCKPHOTO/StockWebSites.html">Stock Photography Web Site</a> <li><ahref="http://libits.library.ualberta.ca/library_html/libraries/coutts/science.html">http://libits.library.ualberta.ca/library_html/libraries/coutts/science.html</a> <li><ahref="http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/EART/ref.html">Reference Shelf EarthSciences & Map Library</a> <li><ahref="http://www.stnet.com/news/HTcdguide/Aeronautic/">Aeronautics/Space/Marine Science Page</a> - <b>UNDERCONSTRUCTION!</b> </ul></body></html>=============================================================X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 12:35:12 -0400X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.comMime-Version: 1.0To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> Subject: starship-design:ben's questions... Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.eduPrecedence: bulkReply-To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> ok guys i have several questions for yall... #1 does anyone know anything about going to school in europe, how to find out info, etc etc? #2 does anyone know anythingabout generating fractal landscapes (tim?)? especially equations and source code (i alreadyknow about fractint and povray, i need source or equations)thanxben===========================================Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:19:15 -0400From: DotarSojat@aol.comTo: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSubject: Re: Surface Ultraviolet Radiation Levels... Tim and KellyWithout repeating here quotes of Kelly's email of 8/2/96 at 10:29 EDT onthe above subject, I can simply say that I concur complete- ly; Ihighlighted as being questionable the same passages that he did. (Theparagraph in the Release starting "Studies have shown..." should have beenleft out; it had nothing to do with the reported measurements.) In additionI highlighted as being un- scientific the following passages:>Solar ultraviolet radiation reaching the Earth's surface has in- creasedover large regions of the planet... This is a "scare" lead-in."[I]ncreased" is unquantified, and could be by insignificant frac- tions overmost of the "large regions.""[L]arge regions" is unquantified. The region from 45 deg N to the NorthPole represents about 15 percent of the Earth's surface and perhaps a likepercentage of the land area, and probably con- tains less than 15 percentof the world's population. The region from 45 deg S to the South Pole isinhospitable for other reasons besides increased UV.>Scientists and others have a keen interest in ozone depletion, given thatthe increased amounts of ultraviolet radiation that reach the Earth'ssurface because of ozone loss, [sic] have the potential to increase theincidence of skin cancer and cataracts in humans, cause harm to some foodcrops, and interfere with marine life.This was written by a person with an agenda. "[O]zone loss" sounds muchmore complete (and scary) than "ozone decrease.""[H]ave the potential" doesn't justify drastic action without knowing howstrong the potential is."[I]ncrease the incidence of skin cancer and cataracts..." By how much?Measurably? Or only conceptually? Couldn't the affected people learn towear hats outdoors? How does wearing hats compare in cost to replacingall our refrigeration systems? "[C]ause harm to some food crops..." Whatkind of "harm"? Irrev- ersible? Compensatable? Might the crops adapt, orbe bred to be resistant?"[I]nterfere with marine life." "[I]nterfere" is a weak word. Algae? (Surelyonly surface life, although that might be part of a food chain for deeperlife.) How much surface life is in the affected high latitudes? Again,might it adapt? >Because the risks of further increases in ultraviolet radiation areserious..."[S]erious" is not a scientific term. As a sometime scientist, I amembarrassed.One shouldn't rely on newspapers or NASA Releases for scientificinformation. This Release may bear as little resemblance to thereferenced Geophysical Research Letter as the Washington Times columnon "dark matter" bore to the referenced article in the AmericanAstrophysical Journal. NASA is a politically correct bureaucracy; itceased being a technical/scientific organization sometime in the late '70sas the Apollo engineering/scientific team faded away.But the truth inexplicably found its way into the Release anyhow: >...scientists around the world are working to improve our currentunderstanding of how much of the ozone-related change in the atmosphereis caused by humans and how much is attributable to natural processes...Now tell me about the justification for the CFC ban. Rex=============================================================X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 01:55:23 +0100To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com From:T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Subject:Re: shielding>At 12:56 AM 7/4/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >>>Think of it as a lightning bolt, next to you in a closed room. How muchenergy would those air molecules pick up from the impact? How muchenergy would they radiate? What would the blast presure be? >>I haven't the faintest idea, I'd need to calculate that. >>From what I've seen of lightning effects (a comparativly low energy,1/3rd >c electron flow) I'ld expect massive effects. Let me know what yourcalculations show.When I wrote this, I had in mind to calculate how many air-"molecules"would be in the path of the pebble and assume that they all would beaccelerated upto the speed of the pebble. Now looking at it again with afresh view, I see many inaccuracies in that approach. So any calculationsthat I could do would probably give a bad estimate.However if I knew how much the pebble would have been decelerated, Icould easely assume that all that lost energy would be released in the air(as heat or gamma rays). Unfortunately I haven't the faintest idea howmuch the stone would decelerate.Tim===========================================Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 23:45:53 -0400From: KellySt@aol.comTo: leneski@chrome.gc.peachnet.edu, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Subject: Re:Mike! Are you there?Hi Mike,I've been meaning to call. I E-mailed to see what address your using. (Theowner of the one we had been e-mailing to, asked us to stop.) We have alist server account now, and are debating how to restart the newsletters.I'm still redoing LIT's web site, but Dave seems to want to distribute it toeveryone elses account and forget it.More later.Kelly===========================================Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 02:49:08 -0400From: KellySt@aol.comTo: kgstar@most.fw.hac.comSubject: Fwd: Re: Mike! Are you there?---------------------Forwarded message:From:	leneski@chrome.gc.peachnet.edu (Michael K. Leneski)To:	KellySt@aol.comDate: 96-07-31 13:30:38 EDTWell, Stephen was using it for awhile there to work on his homepage, butnow he has his own account, so everything's cool.....I think. I am still living if that's what you mean by Am I here, however after beingaway from my house for four days I don't know how much later I will bealive :)Call me sometime dude, we can rework all thopse lovely physics equationsand see if we can get LIT breathing again. I do have faculty status, but Istill don't know what it does.Mike(770) 536-0715=============================================================X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 18:34:12 +0100To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, DotarSojat@aol.com From:T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Subject:Re: Surface Ultraviolet Radiation Levels... Hi Kelly and Rex,Thanks for taking apart the message, I hope the main theme of the articleis still true. ;)I'll keep my eyes open for other (better) information. Tim=============================================================X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f From: DotarSojat@aol.comDate: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 15:07:19 -0400To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: starship-design: The Size of the Problem Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: DotarSojat@aol.comMEMORANDUMTO:	The Starship Design GroupFROM: Rex FinkeSUBJECT: The Size of the ProblemINTRODUCTION AND SUMMARYA challenge has been identified to convey to the SD group the size of theproblem of providing the energy required for inter- stellar flight.Let us consider an example mission to deliver 100 tonnes to a distance of8 light-years at a continuous acceleration/ deceleration of 1 g, a missionfor which we have some numbers. Calculations below indicate that this mission, if powered by antimatter,requires a mass of antimatter that represents an investment in energyequivalent to at least 105,500 years of the rate of production of electricenergy in the entire US in 1987.CALCULATIONSA. ENERGY CONTENT of ANTIMATTERThe specific energy of annihilation (also creation) of 1 kg of matter-plus-antimatter (m+am) ismc^2 = 1 kg x (2.9979 x 10^8 m/sec)^2= 8.9874 x 10^16 kg m^2/sec^2.......(1 kg m^2/sec^2 = 1 joule = 10^-6 Mw-sec) = 8.9874 x 10^10 Mw-sec.......(1 yr = 3.156 x 10^7 sec)= 2,847.7 Mw-yr (per kg of m+am)B. ELECTRIC ENERGY PRODUCTION in the USMy 1994 Grolier Encyclopedia says, under "power, generation andtransmission of,""In 1987, production of electric energy by utilities in the United Statestotaled 2,570 billion kilowatt-hours." 2,570 x 10^9 kw-hr x 3600 sec/hr / (1000 kw/Mw x 3.156 x 10^7 sec/yr)= 293,156 Mw-yrLet us call 293,156 Mw-yr 1 "USE." Then1 USE = 293,156 Mw-yr / 2,847.7 Mw-yr/kg m+am = 102.94 kg m+am= 51.47 kg amC. ANTIMATTER MASS REQUIREMENTIn my email memo of 4/4/96 at 13:26 EST to the SD Group, "OptimumInterstellar Rockets (Minimum Antimatter Fuel)," I gave the cal- culatedvalues of the ratios of the minimum antimatter mass to the burnout mass(minMam/Mbo) and the minimum antimatter mass to the initial mass(minMam/Mi) required for various values of the final proper velocity(Uend) up to a Uend of 5 light-years/year. The assumptions in thecalculations were--1. 100 percent conversion of annihilation energy to exhaust kinetic energy, and2. The exhaust velocity was that giving the maximum conver- sion of exhaust kinetic energy to vehicle kinetic energy, i.e., that requiringthe minimum mass of matter+antimat- ter, for each final velocity.For acceleration to a Uend of 5, the value of minMam/Mbo given in thememo is 3.357 and the value given for minMam/Mi is 0.2210. With thesenumbers, and recognizing that the method used there to calculate theminimum is approximate, the mass ratio for the acceleration phase givenby minMam/Mbo divided by minMam/Mi is about 15.2, including the exhaustmass and the matter annihilated with the antimatter. The overall massratio for acceleration plus deceleration is (15.2)^2, or about 231. The ratioof antimatter mass to burnout mass is about 23.6 percent (3.357/14.2) ofthe "fuel ratio" (the mass ratio minus one). The overall ratio of antimattermass to burnout mass is therefore about 54.3. A Uend of 5 lt-yr/yr is achieved at an acceleration of 1 g over a distanceof 3.97 lt-yr (see my 4/4 memo). So, a peak proper vel- ocity of 5 lt-yr/yris reached halfway to a destination about 8 lt-yr away, and the antimatterrequirement is about 54.3 kg of antimatter for each kg of mass deliveredto that distance. With one more assumption--3. 100 percent efficiency of conversion of electric energy to antimatter,the minimum energy requirement to create the antimatter to deliver 1 kgto a distance of 8 lt-yr at 1-g continuous acceleration/ decelerationbecomes54.3 kg am / 51.47 kg am/USE = 1.055 USE . So the energy requirement to deliver an example final mass of 100 tonnes(10^5 kg) to an example distance of 8 lt-yr at an accel-eration/deceleration of 1 g is 1.055 x 10^5 USE, or 105,500 years of therate of electric energy production in the entire US in the year 1987, if theefficiency of conversion of electric energy to antimatter is 100 percent.IMPLICATIONSSimilar considerations could be applied to relate to the USE the fusion-powered-rocket energy requirement, the sail/beam energy requirement,etc. All will certainly be about as much beyond current power-generationcapabilities as antimatter creation is. Human interstellar flight in ahuman lifetime is even further beyond current physics/economics than Ihad imagined. Orders of magnitude reduction in payload and increase intransit time are required to reduce the energy problem to a "manageable"size, to only a few USEs, say.What to do about the energy problem for human starflight? A few plausible ways around the problem (requiring extensions of physics,however) come to mind:1. Find some process to make antimatter which does not require creation energy, such as changing matter to anti- matter throughsome kind of quantum manipulation (trans- mutation). On 3/27/96 at 9:06p EST, Lee Parker quoted Kelly Starks (private email of 3/22 at 8:40 aEST), para- phrased, "So physicists are talking about the possibility ofrotating the quantum particles to convert a particle of matter toantimatter."2. Discover some ultra-cheap source of energy (cold fusion?). 3. Tunnelthrough space ("warp drive"?). The group might think of others.=============================================================X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 18:07:33 -0700From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Starship design group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject: Re:starship-design: The Size of the Problem Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:>MEMORANDUM>TO:	The Starship Design Group>FROM: Rex Finke>SUBJECT: The Size of the Problem>INTRODUCTION AND SUMMARY>A challenge has been identified to convey to the SD group the size of theproblem of providing the energy required for inter- stellar flight.>Let us consider an example mission to deliver 100 tonnes to a distance of8 light-years at a continuous acceleration/ deceleration of 1 g, a missionfor which we have some numbers. >Calculations below indicate that this mission, if powered by antimatter,requires a mass of antimatter that represents an investment in energyequivalent to at least 105,500 years of the rate of production of electricenergy in the entire US in 1987.>CALCULATIONS<snipped>because I do not have the tools to argue them. I will accept them as givens >the minimum energy requirement to create the antimatter to deliver 1 kgto a distance of 8 lt-yr at 1-g continuous acceleration/ decelerationbecomes>54.3 kg am / 51.47 kg am/USE = 1.055 USE . So at about 91 Kg, I'm looking at 95 USE's >IMPLICATIONS>Similar considerations could be applied to relate to the USE the fusion-powered-rocket energy requirement, the sail/beam energy requirement,etc. All will certainly be about as much beyond current power-generationcapabilities as antimatter creation is. Human interstellar flight in ahuman lifetime is even further beyond current physics/economics than Ihad imagined. Orders of magnitude reduction in payload and increase intransit time are required to reduce the energy problem to a "manageable"size, to only a few USEs, say.>What to do about the energy problem for human starflight? >A few plausible ways around the problem (requiring extensions ofphysics, however) come to mind:>1. Find some process to make antimatter which does not >require creation energy, such as changing matter to anti- matter throughsome kind of quantum manipulation (trans- mutation). On 3/27/96 at 9:06p EST, Lee Parker quoted Kelly Starks (private email of 3/22 at 8:40 aEST), para- phrased, "So physicists are talking about the possibility ofrotating the quantum particles to convert a particle of matter toantimatter."My (limited) understanding is that unless Quarks are made up of evensmaller particles (hints of which have been bandied about) this is notpossible. The quarks in matter are not enough to make the quarks inantimatter >2. Discover some ultra-cheap source of energy (cold fusion?). Most likely case. Consider that for the last 200 years, the amount ofenergy commanded by each person (in US since you use USE's) has steadilyincreased, and that the rate of increase is also increasing. There willcome a time when each of us commands the energy to cover the cost ofinterstellar travel. I don't know when it will happen, but the day willcome. >3. Tunnel through space ("warp drive"?). >The group might think of others.The best possibility I can think of is self-replicating robots. Let's look atusing solar panels for the energy for the ship. >Let us call 293,156 Mw-yr 1 "USE." Well, Ok. But I do prefer roundnumbers. Now you (Rex) say that it's gonna take 105,500 years to fuel the ship, andin the meantime we all shiver in the dark. Kelly says: (to paraphrase)"given that length of time, and that mass of anti-matter, the chance of anaccident is near 100%" so let's try to fuel that ship in one year OK? So a simple calculation yeilds a total of 30,927,958,000,000,000 Wattsper year for the whole ship.At the earth's orbit, the solar flux is 1 kilowatt/m^2 second. however, thebest soalr cells can only achieve .10% conversion, so we are left with 100watts/m^2 second. But there are 60*60*24*365=31,536,000 seconds in ayear so we can get 100*31,536,000=3,153,600,000 watts per m^2 peryear. So, the solar collecting area "only" needs to be30,927,958,000,000,000/3,153,600,000 =9,807,191 sq meters (at earth'sorbit remember) Now let's suppose a "magical" robot with the following abilities: 1) Able to gather and refine lunar materials into stock elements (Si, Al,Ti, O ...) 2) Able to build a copy of itself from such stock materials in oneweek's time. 3) Able to make one square meter of solar cell in one week'stime (for the sake of argument, I'll assume that it can only do one or the otherat a given time, not both)Now the problemn gets tricky, do we have the robots reproduce until wehave 9,807,190 of them and then set them to make the solar cells, or dowe stop after some amount of time and start making solar cells andproduce at a steady rate. Let's look at option a: it will take 23.225 weeks to replicate 9,807,190Robots at which time they can make the required number of solar cells oneweek later. If they stop after only 22 weeks, there will only be 4,903,595 (half asmany) so they will need to work two weeks to make the required amountof solar panels. But if they stop even one week earlier, there will be half again as many,and then it will require four weeks to make the solar panels, which wouldbe one week later than any senario mentioned thus far.So we can seee that 22.225 weeks of reproduction followed by 2 weeks ofproduction will give us all the power needed. the best part is that bypicking up a few hundred of these robots prior to lift-off, we can beassured of being able to make the return trip just as painless.Now you can question the reasonableness of these robots, but I reallythink that they will be built soon.Ability #1 could be done now. There are prototype models that can pick upsand and deliver it to a central point.Ability #2 is tricky, but not unbearably so (say ten to twenty years fromnow) Ability #3 is subsumed under #2, because each of these robots willitself run on solar cells.In fact, if you gave each robot a solar "footprint" of 1 m^2, then they wouldbecome the collection grid. no doubt, three similar "colonies" would needto be deployed around the moon (or other body) to ensure that daylight wasalways on the grid.Some general notes, I would suggest mercury as a better collection site,due to its proximity to our star.--Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html==========================================================Comments: Authenticated sender is <mkshp@mail.ionet.net> From: "Michael Shipp" <mkshp@ionet.net>To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 21:41:48 +0000X-Total-Enclosures: 1X-Enclosure-Info: DOS,"ARGOSY.TXT",,,,Text Subject: Re: starship-design:Re: ARGOSY Priority: normal>To:	T.L.G.vanderLinden (Timothy van der Linden)>From:	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)>Subject:	starship-design: Re:>From Brian V. MansurOkay, sorry for the mix-up guys. This file you should be able to de code. Ifnot, I'll send the Argosy paper to you as e-mail text, piece by piece ifnecessary, whole if possible. I'll be gone another full week because myfriend is leaving for Florida tomorrow. Hope to get some good questions!In Christ,Mikehttp://www-origins.uoknor.edu/~mshipp/welcome.htm -------------- Enclosure number 1 ---------------- * This message contains the file 'ARGOSY.TXT', which has been *uuencoded. If you are using Pegasus Mail, then you can use * the browser'seXtract function to lift the original contents * out to a file, otherwise youwill have to extract the message * and uudecode it manually.begin 660 ARGOSY.TXT