============================================================= X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f From: DotarSojat@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 00:50:15 -0400 To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Re: The Size of the Problem Sender: owner- starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply- To: DotarSojat@aol.com At 09:58 8/5/96, Kelly Starks wrote: >At 3:07 PM 8/4/96, DotarSojat wrote: >> SUBJECT: The Size of the Problem >>The minimum energy requirement to create the antimatter to deliver 1 kg to a distance of 8 lt-yr at 1-g continuous acceleration/deceleration becomes >>54.3 kg am / 51.47 kg am/USE = 1.055 USE . >>IMPLICATIONS >>.... >>Orders of magnitude reduction in payload and increase in transit time are required to reduce the energy problem to a "manageable" size, to only a few USEs, say. >>.... >>A few plausible ways around the problem...come to mind: >>.... >>The group might think of others. >A few come to mind. ;) >1) Don't use antimatter. And use at least 250 times the mass of energy fuel? :( >2) Don't try for a constant 1 g acceleration for the full durration of the flight. >.... While I believe Kelly had a coast phase in mind, his comment suggested to me trying values of constant acceleration/ deceleration less than 1 g. With some improvements in the cal- culation from my 4/4/96 memo to the Group, I get the following reductions in energy requirement, in USE per kilogram of burnout mass, as the accel/decel value is decreased from 1 g (included in the table are the peak proper velocity Uend in lt-yr/yr, the trip time in yr and the mass ratio for the acceleration phase alone): Accel/decel Uend Energy/Mbo trip time mass ratio(accel) (g) (lt-yr/yr) (USE/kg) (yr) Distance = 8 (actually 7.941) lt-yr 1.0 5.000 1.0510* 4.480 15.11 Distance = 4.35 lt-yr (alpha Centauri) 1.0 3.088 0.4067 3.576 10.58 0.9 2.851 0.3476 3.810 10.03 0.8 2.611 0.2925 4.087 9.47 0.7 2.369 0.2415 4.421 8.91 0.6 2.124 0.1946 4.835 8.35 0.5 1.872 0.1518 5.366 7.79 0.4 1.613 0.1132 6.083 7.22 0.3633 1.516 0.1000 6.417 7.01 0.3 1.342 0.0786 7.128 6.65 0.2 1.049 0.0483 8.867 6.08 0.1 0.707 0.0220 12.751 5.50 0.0476 0.475 0.0100 18.653 5.19 ----------- *was 1.055 in my 8/4/96 memo. A plot of energy vs trip time shows an elbow at about 0.5 or 0.4 g, where additional expense in energy starts to reach diminishing returns in reduction in trip time. The point at 0.3633 g for the alpha Centauri trip represents a reduction in USE/kg by about an order of magnitude from the example trip in my 8/4/96 memo. The point at 0.0476 g (for alpha Centauri) represents two orders of magnitude reduction, but at a signif- icant increase in trip time (to 18.653 yr). Rex P.S. For the record, I include below the Fortran program that did the calculations (incidentally, I regard a Fortran program as essentially not much more than an ASCII rendering of the equations): PROGRAM TRIP !8/11/96 101 FORMAT(2X, 21H Acceleration (gs) = ) 102 FORMAT(2X, F8.4, F8.3) 103 FORMAT(2X, F5.3, 4F8.4, F8.3, F8.4, F8.4, F7.2) DIST = 4.35 XACC = 0.5 * DIST ETA = 1. 2 CONTINUE WRITE(*,101) READ(*,*) AG IF(AG .EQ. 0.) GO TO 99 ACC = 1.0324 * AG UEND = SQRT(ACC * XACC * (ACC * XACC + 2.)) GAMEND = SQRT(1. + UEND*UEND) VEND = UEND/GAMEND THETA = LOG(UEND + GAMEND) !asinh(Uend) TACC = THETA/ACC X1 = 0.05 X2 = X1 1 CONTINUE X3 = X2 X2 = X1 X1 = X1 + 0.01 GAMEX = 1./SQRT(1. - X1*X1) R = 1.01 IF(X1 .GT. .05) R = EXP(THETA*(GAMEX-1.+ETA)/(ETA*GAMEX*X1)) Y3 = Y2 Y2 = Y1 Y1 = (GAMEND - 1.) * (GAMEX - 1. + ETA)/((R - 1.) * ETA * & (GAMEX - 1.)) IF(Y1 .LT. Y2 .AND. X1 .GT. 0.1) THEN A = ((Y1-Y2)*(X2-X3)-(Y2-Y3)*(X1-X2))/ & ((X1*X1-X2*X2)*(X2-X3)-(X2*X2-X3*X3)*(X1-X2)) B = ((Y1-Y2) - A*(X1*X1-X2*X2))/(X1-X2) XOPT = -B/(2.*A) GO TO 3 END IF GO TO 1 3 CONTINUE OPTVEXH = XOPT OPTUEXH = OPTVEXH/SQRT(1. - OPTVEXH*OPTVEXH) GEXHOPT = SQRT(1. + OPTUEXH*OPTUEXH) ROPT = EXP(THETA * (GEXHOPT - 1. + ETA)/(ETA * GEXHOPT * & OPTVEXH)) EFFMAX = (GAMEND - 1.)*(GEXHOPT - 1. + ETA)/((ROPT - 1.) * & ETA * (GEXHOPT - 1.)) URATIO = UEND/OPTUEXH AMMBO = (GAMEND - 1.)/(2.* EFFMAX * ETA) AMMI = (GAMEND - 1.)/(2.* EFFMAX * ETA * ROPT) WRITE(*,103) UEND, VEND, OPTVEXH, OPTUEXH, EFFMAX, URATIO, & AMMBO, AMMI, ROPT ROVER = ROPT * ROPT FRAM = AMMBO/(ROPT - 1.) OVAMMBO = FRAM * (ROVER - 1.) USE = OVAMMBO/51.47 TTRIP = 2. * TACC WRITE(*,102) USE, TTRIP GO TO 2 99 STOP END ============================================================= X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:20:03 -0500 To: DotarSojat@aol.com From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Re: The Size of the Problem Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply- To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 12:50 AM 8/12/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote: >At 09:58 8/5/96, Kelly Starks wrote: >>At 3:07 PM 8/4/96, DotarSojat wrote: >>> SUBJECT: The Size of the Problem >>>The minimum energy requirement to create the antimatter to deliver 1 kg to a distance of 8 lt-yr at 1-g continuous acceleration/deceleration becomes >>>54.3 kg am / 51.47 kg am/USE = 1.055 USE . >>>IMPLICATIONS >>>.... >>>Orders of magnitude reduction in payload and increase in transit time are required to reduce the energy problem to a "manageable" size, to only a few USEs, say. >>>.... >>>A few plausible ways around the problem...come to mind: >>>.... >>>The group might think of others. >>A few come to mind. ;) >>1) Don't use antimatter. >And use at least 250 times the mass of energy fuel? :( The problem you listed was the difficulty in manufacturing (not to mention storing) the "fuel". Given that mining and using more conventional fuels (like Lithium, duterium, etc..) don't have the heavy power costs and system complexity problems. Hell yes I'ld rather have hundreds of times the fuel weight! (Obviously due to the weight of the fuel you'ld need more than 250 times as much, but it would be a lot easier to carry!) Thought. What is the relative weight of an Anti-matter tank to the weight of the anti-matter? Would its weight added to the ship start outweighing the advantages of the lighter fuel? Also you would need to carry (and store) a full round trip worth of anti-matter since you couldn't refuel in the target system. >>2) Don't try for a constant 1 g acceleration for the full durration of the flight. >>.... >While I believe Kelly had a coast phase in mind,--- True. The higher speed and longer burn times both dramatically increase fuel consumption. (Well beyond what seems technically feasable.) Also... >-- his comment suggested to me trying values of constant acceleration/ deceleration less than 1 g. With some improvements in the cal- culation from my 4/4/96 memo to the Group, I get the following reductions in energy requirement, in USE per kilogram of burnout mass, as the accel/decel value is decreased from 1 g (included in the table are the peak proper velocity Uend in lt-yr/yr, the trip time in yr and the mass ratio for the acceleration phase alone): >Accel/decel Uend Energy/Mbo trip time mass ratio(accel) >(g) (lt-yr/yr) (USE/kg) (yr) >Distance = 8 (actually 7.941) lt-yr >1.0 5.000 1.0510* 4.480 15.11 >Distance = 4.35 lt-yr (alpha Centauri) >1.0 3.088 0.4067 3.576 10.58 >0.9 2.851 0.3476 3.810 10.03 >0.8 2.611 0.2925 4.087 9.47 >0.7 2.369 0.2415 4.421 8.91 >0.6 2.124 0.1946 4.835 8.35 >0.5 1.872 0.1518 5.366 7.79 >0.4 1.613 0.1132 6.083 7.22 >0.3633 1.516 0.1000 6.417 7.01 >0.3 1.342 0.0786 7.128 6.65 >0.2 1.049 0.0483 8.867 6.08 >0.1 0.707 0.0220 12.751 5.50 >0.0476 0.475 0.0100 18.653 5.19 >----------- >*was 1.055 in my 8/4/96 memo. >A plot of energy vs trip time shows an elbow at about 0.5 or 0.4 g, where additional expense in energy starts to reach diminishing returns in reduction in trip time. The point at 0.3633 g for the alpha Centauri trip represents a reduction in USE/kg by about an order of magnitude from the example trip in my 8/4/96 memo. The point at 0.0476 g (for alpha Centauri) represents two orders of magnitude reduction, but at a signif- icant increase in trip time (to 18.653 yr). >Rex .... You'ld probably get shorter trip times if you had used the same power in higher boosts at the start and end of the trips, with a coast phase in the middle. Same power consumption, but higher average speed. >P.S. For the record, I include below the Fortran program that did the calculations (incidentally, I regard a Fortran program as essentially not much more than an ASCII rendering of the equations): Thanks for including the code! ?? You still use goto's in your code! Bad Rex, Bad. Whap, whap, whap. ;) >PROGRAM TRIP !8/11/96 >101 FORMAT(2X, 21H Acceleration (gs) = ) 102 FORMAT(2X, F8.4, F8.3) >103 FORMAT(2X, F5.3, 4F8.4, F8.3, F8.4, F8.4, F7.2) >DIST = 4.35 >XACC = 0.5 * DIST >ETA = 1. >2 CONTINUE >WRITE(*,101) >READ(*,*) AG >IF(AG .EQ. 0.) GO TO 99 >ACC = 1.0324 * AG >UEND = SQRT(ACC * XACC * (ACC * XACC + 2.)) GAMEND = SQRT(1. + UEND*UEND) >VEND = UEND/GAMEND >THETA = LOG(UEND + GAMEND) !asinh(Uend) >TACC = THETA/ACC >X1 = 0.05 >X2 = X1 >1 CONTINUE >X3 = X2 >X2 = X1 >X1 = X1 + 0.01 >GAMEX = 1./SQRT(1. - X1*X1) >R = 1.01 >IF(X1 .GT. .05) R = EXP(THETA*(GAMEX-1.+ETA)/(ETA*GAMEX*X1)) Y3 = Y2 >Y2 = Y1 >Y1 = (GAMEND - 1.) * (GAMEX - 1. + ETA)/((R - 1.) * ETA * & (GAMEX - 1.)) >IF(Y1 .LT. Y2 .AND. X1 .GT. 0.1) THEN >A = ((Y1-Y2)*(X2-X3)-(Y2-Y3)*(X1-X2))/ >& ((X1*X1-X2*X2)*(X2-X3)-(X2*X2-X3*X3)*(X1-X2)) >B = ((Y1-Y2) - A*(X1*X1-X2*X2))/(X1-X2) XOPT = -B/(2.*A) >GO TO 3 >END IF >GO TO 1 >3 CONTINUE >OPTVEXH = XOPT >OPTUEXH = OPTVEXH/SQRT(1. - OPTVEXH*OPTVEXH) GEXHOPT = SQRT(1. + OPTUEXH*OPTUEXH) >ROPT = EXP(THETA * (GEXHOPT - 1. + ETA)/(ETA * GEXHOPT * & OPTVEXH)) >EFFMAX = (GAMEND - 1.)*(GEXHOPT - 1. + ETA)/((ROPT - 1.) * & ETA * (GEXHOPT - 1.)) >URATIO = UEND/OPTUEXH >AMMBO = (GAMEND - 1.)/(2.* EFFMAX * ETA) AMMI = (GAMEND - 1.)/(2.* EFFMAX * ETA * ROPT) WRITE(*,103) UEND, VEND, OPTVEXH, OPTUEXH, EFFMAX, URATIO, & AMMBO, AMMI, ROPT >ROVER = ROPT * ROPT >FRAM = AMMBO/(ROPT - 1.) >OVAMMBO = FRAM * (ROVER - 1.) >USE = OVAMMBO/51.47 >TTRIP = 2. * TACC >WRITE(*,102) USE, TTRIP >GO TO 2 >99 STOP >END Kelly ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Kelly Starks Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859 Sr. Systems Engineer Mail Stop: 10-39 Hughes defense Communications 1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ============================================================= X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:00:37 -0500 To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, KellySt@aol.com, sdudley@ix.netcom.com, schlegel@rmc1.crocker.com, JohnFrance@aol.com, mark_jensen@cpqm.mail.saic.com, DTaylor648@aol.com, Kryswalker@aol.com From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: starship-design: Software cycle Sender: owner-starship- design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply- To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Software doesn't just appear on the shelves by magic. That program shink- wrapped inside the box along with the indecipherable manual and 12-paragraph disclaimer notice actually came to you by way of an elaborate path, through the most rigid quality control on the planet. Here, shared for the first time with the general public, are the inside details of the program development cycle: 1. Programmer produces code he believes is bug-free. 2. Product is tested. 20 bugs are found. 3. Programmer fixes 10 of the bugs and explains to the testing department that the other 10 aren't really bugs. 4. Testing department finds that five of the fixes didn't work and discovers 15 new bugs. 5. See 3. 6. See 4. 7. See 5. 8. See 6. 9. See 7. 10. See 8. 11. Due to marketing pressure and an extremely pre-mature product announcement based on over-optimistic programming schedule, the product is released. 12. Users find 137 new bugs. 13. Original programmer, having cashed his royalty check, is nowhere to be found. 14. Newly-assembled programming team fixes almost all of the 137 bugs, but introduce 456 new ones. 15. Original programmer sends underpaid testing department a postcard from Fiji. Entire testing department quits. 16. Company is bought in a hostile takeover by competitor using profits from their latest release, which had 783 bugs. 17. New CEO is brought in by board of directors. He hires programmer to redo program from scratch. 18. Programmer produces code he believes is bug-free. 19. See step 2 ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Kelly Starks Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859 Sr. Systems Engineer Mail Stop: 10-39 Hughes defense Communications 1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ============================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:21:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve VanDevender To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Software cycle I said that I'm not going to exercise any editorial control over the content of postings to the starship-design list, but I will strongly encourage starship-design list members to avoid sending non-topical material to the list, like general humor postings. The reason for having this mailing list is to discuss starship design and space travel, and I believe all subscribers will appreciate it remaining limited to those topics. I also ask that subscribers avoid cross-posting material to other mailing lists or individual recipients if those postings could generate non-topical followups to starship-design.X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:58:36 -0500 To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: starship-design: Europa Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply- To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos of Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean. I.E. a life zone. All in all their having a good month! Kelly P.S. Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the Marian fossil discovery? ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Kelly Starks Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859 Sr. Systems Engineer Mail Stop: 10-39 Hughes defense Communications 1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ============================================================= X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:02:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve VanDevender To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Europa Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply- To: Steve VanDevender Kelly Starks writes: >In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos of Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean. I.E. a life zone. All in all their having a good month! > Soon the alien starships will enter the Solar System and remove all doubt :-) We could then pick their brains for design concepts. >Kelly >P.S. >Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the Marian fossil discovery? I actually wasn't that shocked by the concept; my reaction to "Extraterrestrial life found" would be "Well, duh." Considering the tenuous nature of their evidence, I'm waiting to hear about further results and analysis of that meteorite to see if anything more conclusive develops. ============================================================= X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:28:10 -0500 To: Steve VanDevender From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Europa Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply- To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 12:02 PM 8/14/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >Kelly Starks writes: >>In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos of Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean. I.E. a life zone. All in all their having a good month! >> >Soon the alien starships will enter the Solar System and remove all doubt :-) We could then pick their brains for design concepts. If they're big disks, hovering over our major cities, I'm going to be pissed! ;) >>Kelly >>P.S. >>Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the Marian fossil discovery? >I actually wasn't that shocked by the concept; my reaction to "Extraterrestrial life found" would be "Well, duh." Considering the tenuous nature of their evidence, I'm waiting to hear about further results and analysis of that meteorite to see if anything more conclusive develops. Agreed. It looks likely. By then it always did. It might at least get NASA to consider the possibility of active life forms in their designs. (Admin desision was that we proved nothing alive is at Mars. And people wounder why D.C. shouldn't be trusted with hard questions.) Kelly ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Kelly Starks Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859 Sr. Systems Engineer Mail Stop: 10-39 Hughes defense Communications 1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ============================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:25:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.com Mime-Version: 1.0 To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), Steve VanDevender From: Philip Bakelaar Subject: Re: starship-design: Europa Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu At 02:28 PM 8/14/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >At 12:02 PM 8/14/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >>Kelly Starks writes: >>>In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos of Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean. I.E. a life zone. All in all their having a good month! >>> >>Soon the alien starships will enter the Solar System and remove all doubt :-) We could then pick their brains for design concepts. >If they're big disks, hovering over our major cities, I'm going to be pissed! ;) Remember guys, all you need is a Macintosh, and we can all save the world! (Let's just hope The Brain is a faithful IBM user!) ;) >>>Kelly >>>P.S. >>>Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the Marian fossil discovery? >>I actually wasn't that shocked by the concept; my reaction to "Extraterrestrial life found" would be "Well, duh." Considering the tenuous nature of their evidence, I'm waiting to hear about further results and analysis of that meteorite to see if anything more conclusive develops. >Agreed. It looks likely. By then it always did. I wonder if their announcement was a little premature? (Surely they didn't have the Martian single-cell action figures made yet?) :) But seriously... ??? >It might at least get NASA to consider the possibility of active life forms in their designs. (Admin desision was that we proved nothing alive is at Mars. And people wounder why D.C. shouldn't be trusted with hard questions.) They really said that, huh? Amazing... Ben ============================================================= X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:39:47 -0500 To: Philip Bakelaar From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Europa Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), Steve VanDevender , starship- design@lists.uoregon.edu At 4:25 PM 8/14/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: >At 02:28 PM 8/14/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >>At 12:02 PM 8/14/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >>>Kelly Starks writes: >>>>In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos of Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean. >>>I.E. >>>>a life zone. All in all their having a good month! >>>> >>>Soon the alien starships will enter the Solar System and remove all doubt :-) We could then pick their brains for design concepts. >>If they're big disks, hovering over our major cities, I'm going to be pissed! ;) >Remember guys, all you need is a Macintosh, and we can all save the world! Was there ever a doubt? >(Let's just hope The Brain is a faithful IBM user!) ;) >>>>Kelly >>>>P.S. >>>>Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the Marian fossil discovery? >>>I actually wasn't that shocked by the concept; my reaction to "Extraterrestrial life found" would be "Well, duh." Considering the tenuous nature of their evidence, I'm waiting to hear about further results and analysis of that meteorite to see if anything more conclusive develops. >>Agreed. It looks likely. By then it always did. >I wonder if their announcement was a little premature? (Surely they didn't have the Martian single-cell action figures made yet?) :) But seriously... ??? They did too!, and they're doing great in the ameoba-are-us stores! 8) >>It might at least get NASA to consider the possibility of active life forms in their designs. (Admin desision was that we proved nothing alive is at Mars. And people wounder why D.C. shouldn't be trusted with hard questions.) >They really said that, huh? Amazing... >Ben The policy was (and probably still is) that the question of current life on Mars is closed. Thats why they only talk about discovering fossil life. Kelly ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Kelly Starks Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859 Sr. Systems Engineer Mail Stop: 10-39 Hughes defense Communications 1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ============================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:15:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) Subject: Re: starship-design: Europa Cc: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com >In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos of Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean. I.E. a life zone. All in all their having a good month! > >Kelly >P.S. >Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the Marian fossil discovery? I wasn't surprised at all.........Vikings dug a very tiny bit os soil and probably in the wrong places........lets just go there and get it over with... Ric >------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Kelly Starks Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859 >Sr. Systems Engineer Mail Stop: 10-39 >Hughes defense Communications >1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com >------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Visit RD Designs Home Page at:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm ============================================================= X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f From: KellySt@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 17:18:26 -0400 To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Scramjet/rocket launchers? Sender: owner- starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply- To: KellySt@aol.com Just read NASA going to spend some money developing anmd testing scramjet/rockets. (Ever notice an external burning scramjet looks about the same as an aerospike rocket? ;) ) The idea is the craft would boost as a rocket up to mach 3, then cut back the oxegen flow and work as a scramjet up to Mach 8, then switch back to a rocket and boost out of the atmosphere. So you don't have the big problem of carrying the weight of an extra set of engines to orbit. For refernce a SSTO at launch would be. 20 tons cargo 80 tons ship 100 tons liguid hydrogen fuel 800 tons of Oxegen to burn the fuel! By geting about Mach 5 worth of boost without onboard air you could save a lot of launch weight. According to some charts in Zubrins Black Horse artical, that might be good enough to let a propane or kerosine fueled version of the ship single stage to orbit. Problem I worry about is that you might lose enough delta-V plowing through the air to overcome the savings from the smaller lighter ship. Sounds interesting though!