============================================X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 09:03:08 -0500To: "Michael Shipp" <mkshp@ionet.net>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: ARGOSY Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 4:41 PM 8/4/96, Michael Shipp wrote:>>To:	T.L.G.vanderLinden (Timothy van der Linden)>>From:	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)>>Subject:	starship-design: Re:>>From Brian V. Mansur>Okay, sorry for the mix-up guys. This file you should be able to de code. Ifnot, I'll send the Argosy paper to you as e-mail text, piece by piece ifnecessary, whole if possible. I'll be gone another full week because myfriend is leaving for Florida tomorrow. Hope to get some good questions!>In Christ,>Mike>http://www-origins.uoknor.edu/~mshipp/welcome.htm Brian,Its still coming across as uuencoded stuff. I'll give another try atdownloading a decoder. Could you turn of the encoder, or put it on the net,or send a floppy!Kelly>-------------- Enclosure number 1 ---------------- >* This message contains the file 'ARGOSY.TXT', which has been *uuencoded. If you are using Pegasus Mail, then you can use * the browser'seXtract function to lift the original contents * out to a file, otherwise youwill have to extract the message * and uudecode it manually.>begin 660 ARGOSY.TXT>M5&AE($%R9V]S>2UC;&%S<R!3=&%R<VAI<`T*8GD@0G)I86X@5BX@36%N<W5R M#0H-"E!O<W1E9"!*=6QY(#(W+"`Q.3DV#0H-"EM&:6=U<F4@,3H@3&%B96QEM9"!%>'1E<FYA;"!6:65W(&]F($%21T]362!);G1E<G-T96QL87(@0W)U:7-EM($UO9&5=#0H-"CT]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]M/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/3T]/0T*M0V]N=&5N=',-"@T*1&5S:6=N($]V97)V:65W#0H-"D%R9V]S>2!3=&%R<VAI <snip>---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 08:55:28 -0500To: DotarSojat@aol.comFrom: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: The Size of the Problem Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 3:07 PM 8/4/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote: >MEMORANDUM>TO:	The Starship Design Group>FROM: Rex Finke>SUBJECT: The Size of the Problem>INTRODUCTION AND SUMMARY>A challenge has been identified to convey to the SD group the size of theproblem of providing the energy required for inter- stellar flight.>Let us consider an example mission to deliver 100 tonnes to a distance of8 light-years at a continuous acceleration/ deceleration of 1 g, a missionfor which we have some numbers. >Calculations below indicate that this mission, if powered by antimatter,requires a mass of antimatter that represents an investment in energyequivalent to at least 105,500 years of the rate of production of electricenergy in the entire US in 1987.>CALCULATIONS>A. ENERGY CONTENT of ANTIMATTER<snip>>B. ELECTRIC ENERGY PRODUCTION in the US >My 1994 Grolier Encyclopedia says, under "power, generation andtransmission of,">"In 1987, production of electric energy by utilities in the United Statestotaled 2,570 billion kilowatt-hours." <snip>>= 51.47 kg am>C. ANTIMATTER MASS REQUIREMENT<snip>>the minimum energy requirement to create the antimatter to deliver 1 kgto a distance of 8 lt-yr at 1-g continuous acceleration/ decelerationbecomes>54.3 kg am / 51.47 kg am/USE = 1.055 USE . <snip>>IMPLICATIONS>Similar considerations could be applied to relate to the USE the fusion-powered-rocket energy requirement, the sail/beam energy requirement,etc. All will certainly be about as much beyond current power-generationcapabilities as antimatter creation is. Human interstellar flight in ahuman lifetime is even further beyond current physics/economics than Ihad imagined. Orders of magnitude reduction in payload and increase intransit time are required to reduce the energy problem to a "manageable"size, to only a few USEs, say.>What to do about the energy problem for human starflight? >A few plausible ways around the problem (requiring extensions ofphysics, however) come to mind:>1. Find some process to make antimatter which does not >require creation energy, such as changing matter to anti- matter throughsome kind of quantum manipulation (trans- mutation). On 3/27/96 at 9:06p EST, Lee Parker quoted Kelly Starks (private email of 3/22 at 8:40 aEST), para- phrased, "So physicists are talking about the possibility ofrotating the quantum particles to convert a particle of matter toantimatter.">2. Discover some ultra-cheap source of energy (cold fusion?). 3. Tunnelthrough space ("warp drive"?). >The group might think of others.A few come to mind. ;)1) Don't use anti-matter.2) Don't try for a constant 1 g acceleration for the full durration of theflight.3) Scale up your power systems.Space travel always involves rediculas amounts of power. Actually mostforms of travel do. The Saturn-V's supposedly put out more power than thewhole eastern seaboard. To quote myself in the numbers I worked up forthe 500,000 ton dry weight Explorer class:------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Assuming we're go to accelerate to 1/3rd of light speed (100million meters per second, a.k.a. 1. E8 m/s). At 1 Ship_g (10m/s^2) ourship will take. E7 seconds to get to speed. That's 115.7 days or about 16.5weeks. All that time its out accelerating a Corvette (The Explorer classstarship has a 0-60mph time of 2.7 seconds.). All that time the home fuellaunchers are sending us care packets of fuel. How much fuel? To accelerate a 25,000,000 ton loaded ship at 10m/s, with a fusion enginewith a specific impulse of 2,500,000 we will need to 'burn' about 10 TONS!of fusion fuel per second! You'll need 100,000,000 tons (that's a hundredmillion tons!) of fuel to accelerate it up to 1/3rd light speed." ------------------------------------------------------------ Fortunatly Lithium is extramly plentifull on Earth (i.e. cheap) So the fuelshould only cost us a couple dozen billion dollars. Building a fusion reactorthat can process fuel in those quantities is scaling problem (an extreamscaling problem) but not unprecidented considering the scale of the shipswere talking about. If we have the infastructure to build the ship, and thespace platforms to construct it at, we can build the power systems. If weassume we don't have extensive space platforms and infastructure. Weshould assume we wouldn't be launching maned or unmaned interstellarmissions.I realize we're talking about unprecidented power levels, but theirs nofundamental reason we can't generate those amounts of power. We justnever had a reason to before. (After all, how much has the U.S. energylevels gone up in the last half century? How much growth could we expectin the next half century?)Frankly, the cost is a more serious concern. That of course is complicatedto figure out. But critical to a project like this. Who in 1910 U.S.A. would have beleaved we'ld dump the equivalent to acouple hundred billion $ into the Apollo program, just to plant a flag andshow up the Russians? Assuming we can work out a technically practicalsystem, and figure out the types of advancements we'ld need to implementit, we could then try to figure out cost assumption. Would we do it this way?No. As you later imply their are big holes in physics current understandingof things. Since were talking about a half century from now. We canassume tremendous advances in physics and science. (Nuclear power forexample was only developed in about the last 50 years.) By the time weretalking about, the technology were discusing would seem as ludicrus as asupersonic aircraft designed with wood and fabric, and a piston propelerengine. On the other hand coming up with a possible system using the techwe're using could stimulate others to seriously consider the topic, andcome up with better ideas.By the way. What could you do with a 100 ton interstellar space probe?Assuming it could generate enough power to transmit back what it saw. Itsounds like little more then a camera platform. That hardly seems worththe bother of sending. I.E. you could get that degree of info from here viabig scopes. I'm assuming your not considering majic tech like Nano? )Ifyou were willing to consider that, the power levels wouldn't haveconcerned you.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:33:22 -0500To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: starship-design: Update to the dev. LIT Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Hey folks,I've uploaded the next draft of the LIT stuff I was working on. The bannorgifs have been cleaned up a bit. The map gif for bouncing around LIT haslarger characters (hope it helps Zenon). The List of WEB links in theLibrary has been sorted out more, and the text colors have been adjustedfor more visibility.I think I'm about done on the Main LIT page and the entry pages for Marine,near earth Development, and Solar system Dev (theirs not much content,but their good entry pages for when we get something to put in there. TheLibrarys not in bad shape, But the Starship Design section needs a bit oftweeking. I still havn't gotten a readable copy of Brains Argosey stuff. Ifanyone else has, please send it to me for inclusion. If not I'll try to get acopy of a UUencode decoder.Dave!Please, delete the Project directory from inside the interstellar directory.I moved the contents down into Interstallar, but couldn't delete thedirectory and subdirectories. Ben.Library and Marine now have the latest stuff of what I have. I'll leave italone. If you get stuff to add let me know. (No more coordination foul ups Ihope.)Did we ever make a decision about who was going to handel Newsletters?If no one else was planing to, I'll handel collecting them. More later when I think of it.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Tue, 6 Aug 96 16:28:10 +0200From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: Re: starship-design: Update to the dev. LIT Cc: zkulpa@ippt.gov.plSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) >From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) >I've uploaded the next draft of the LIT stuff I was working on. The bannorgifs have been cleaned up a bit. The map gif for bouncing around LIT haslarger characters (hope it helps Zenon). Yes, now it looks OK.However, the imagemap does not work properly - with my Netscape 2.0 (onUNIX) instead of jumping to appropriate page, I get a request to downloadthe .map file... >The List of WEB links in the>Library has been sorted out more, and the text colors have been adjustedfor more visibility.Yes, now they look much nicer.May I indulge my appetites for proofreading of other pages too? ;-)) (whentime permits - just now I am rather busy, writing a veeery learned paperfor a conference in Germany...) -- Zenon============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Tue, 6 Aug 96 16:40:25 +0200From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: Re: starship-design: Update to the dev. LIT Cc: zkulpa@ippt.gov.plSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) Kelly, look at the banner GIF of Solar Development page!! You wrote therewith BIG letters Systen instead of System! I am quite forgiving forspelling in e-mails, but in such a place? Shame to you, Kelly...-- Zenon============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender:S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 17:35:47 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Subject: starship-design: Re: The Size of the Problem Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Kevin Replied:>>A few plausible ways around the problem (requiring extensions ofphysics, however) come to mind:>>1. Find some process to make antimatter which does not .... >My (limited) understanding is that unless Quarks are made up of evensmaller particles (hints of which have been bandied about) this is notpossible. Only 2 months ago I saw a report from I believe the Fermilab that they hadsome minor clues that quarks might have a substructure (it must be on theweb somewhere).However, why is a substructure necessary? It is already known thatquarks can change flavour under influence of the weak force. Take forexample: n -> p + e- where a down-quark is changed in an up-quark >>Let us call 293,156 Mw-yr 1 "USE." Well, Ok. But I do prefer round numbers.This doesn't say 293,156 Mw PER year, but say TIMES year! (Joules insteadof Watts) So instead of a lousy 9 square kilometers of solar panels you aretalking about: 3600*24*365*9,807,191=3.1E14 m^2 That roughly means48 weeks of robot creation. However, those robot should create their ownpower supplies, so that would mean they could use no more than about 100to 400 Watt (pretty efficient machines!!) >Some general notes, I would suggest mercury as a better collection site,due to its proximity to our star.Unluckely mercury doesn't have a moon. While its gravity is about 2.2 moongravities I wonder if our robots like the climate on the surface. Timothy============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:36:19 -0500To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Update to the dev. LIT Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 4:28 PM 8/6/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) >>I've uploaded the next draft of the LIT stuff I was working on. The bannorgifs have been cleaned up a bit. The map gif for bouncing around LIT haslarger characters (hope it helps Zenon). >Yes, now it looks OK.>However, the imagemap does not work properly - with my Netscape 2.0(on UNIX) instead of jumping to appropriate page, I get a request todownload the .map file... True, I forgot to mention those maps woun't work untill loaded into thefinal SunSite (or whatever) area and set to their config. (Which is onereason I made one central map that is called by all the subpages.) >>The List of WEB links in the>>Library has been sorted out more, and the text colors have been adjustedfor more visibility.>Yes, now they look much nicer.Great.>May I indulge my appetites for proofreading of other pages too? ;-))(when time permits - just now I am rather busy, writing a veeery learnedpaper for a conference in Germany...) >-- ZenonProof to your hearts content. :)Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:40:05 -0500To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Update to the dev. LIT Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 4:40 PM 8/6/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>Kelly, look at the banner GIF of Solar Development page!! You wrote therewith BIG letters Systen instead of System! I am quite forgiving forspelling in e-mails, but in such a place? Shame to you, Kelly...>-- ZenonAHHHHHH!Yes, I also made the same (stupid) misspelling in the text of the main LIThome page. Will correct ASAP.Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> Subject: RE: starship-design: Update to the dev. LIT Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:51:39 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0>>However, the imagemap does not work properly - with my Netscape 2.0(on UNIX) instead of jumping to appropriate page, I get a request todownload the .map file... >True, I forgot to mention those maps woun't work untill loaded into thefinal SunSite (or whatever) area and set to their config. (Which is one>reason I made one central map that is called by all the subpages.) A quick break from my work to mention that, yes, the maps will work onSunSITE fine. The problem on my site is that IIS has a differentmap format, of course. But I would mention that perhaps we might want touse both client-side AND server-side image maps. This would let most ofus (if we have Netscape or Internet Explorer) to use the maps no matterwhere they are located.the format for using BOTH is:<a href="mapfile.map"><img src="imagefile.gif" border=0 ismapusemap="#localmap"></a>with the client-side map later in the file... <map name="localmap">.....</map>============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:57:02 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: The Size of the Problem Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 5:35 PM 8/6/95, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >Kevin Replied:>>>A few plausible ways around the problem (requiring extensions ofphysics, however) come to mind:>>>1. Find some process to make antimatter which does not .... >>My (limited) understanding is that unless Quarks are made up of evensmaller particles (hints of which have been bandied about) this is notpossible. >Only 2 months ago I saw a report from I believe the Fermilab that theyhad some minor clues that quarks might have a substructure (it must be onthe web somewhere).>However, why is a substructure necessary? It is already known thatquarks can change flavour under influence of the weak force. Take forexample: n -> p + e- where a down-quark is changed in an up-quark Interesting, I'll have to remenber that. I heard (and partiallyunderstand/remember) that their was some thought that if you do an N-space rotation to convert quarks from up to down you could convert thepartical they form from matter to anti-matter. Never heard of 'fliping' thequarks via the weak force. (How do you generate the weak force?) Thanks for the info. I was going to assume a trick like the forst one wasused by the systems in my next SF book. (I'm glad it wasn't disproved orsomething!) ;)===>>TimothyKelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:21:09 -0500To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: RE: starship-design: Update to the dev. LIT Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" <kgstar@most.fw.hac.com> At 11:51 AM 8/6/96, David Levine wrote:>>>However, the imagemap does not work properly - with my Netscape 2.0(on UNIX) instead of jumping to appropriate page, I get a request todownload the .map file... >>True, I forgot to mention those maps woun't work untill loaded into thefinal SunSite (or whatever) area and set to their config. (Which is one>>reason I made one central map that is called by all the subpages.) >A quick break from my work to mention that, yes, the maps will work onSunSITE fine. The problem on my site is that IIS has a different>map format, of course. But I would mention that perhaps we might wantto use both client-side AND server-side image maps. This would let mostof us (if we have Netscape or Internet Explorer) to use the maps no matter>where they are located.>the format for using BOTH is:><a href="mapfile.map"><img src="imagefile.gif" border=0 ismapusemap="#localmap"></a>>with the client-side map later in the file... ><map name="localmap">>.....></map>That sounds good. I'm not sure what your saying, so I'll go read throughthose manuals again. But it sounds like a good idea! (I just hope the maps really work when Installed production!) Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Tue, 6 Aug 96 18:20:24 +0200From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: Re: starship-design: Update to the dev. LIT Cc: zkulpa@ippt.gov.plSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) >From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) >Yes, I also made the same (stupid) misspelling in the text of the main LIThome page. Will correct ASAP.Yesss!And what a proofreader you think you are, Zenon, overlooking THAT? Shameto you, Zenon! ;-( I wonder why you have missed such an opportunity to indulge in someZenon-bashing, Kelly? ;-) -- ZenonP.S. By your usual disregard for mail headers, your replies to me came in three copies each... -- Zzz============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 11:18:22 -0500From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Starship design group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: The Size of the Problem Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Timothy van der Linden wrote:>Kevin Replied:>>>A few plausible ways around the problem (requiring extensions ofphysics, however) come to mind:>>>1. Find some process to make antimatter which does not .... >>My (limited) understanding is that unless Quarks are made up of evensmaller particles (hints of which have been bandied about) this is notpossible. >Only 2 months ago I saw a report from I believe the Fermilab that theyhad some minor clues that quarks might have a substructure (it must be onthe web somewhere).>However, why is a substructure necessary? It is already known thatquarks can change flavour under influence of the weak force. Take forexample: n -> p + e- where a down-quark is changed in an up-quark _Okay, but how do you change a d quark into a d quark for example. My(again, limited) understanding was that not enough of the right type ofquarks are in a sample of matter to allow one to create a sample of anit-matter. I would be happy to learn that I am wrong on this. what are thequark triplets needed for: ProtonsElectronsNeutronsAnti-ProtonsAnti-ElectronsAnti-Neutrons>>>Let us call 293,156 Mw-yr 1 "USE." Well, Ok. But I do prefer round >numbers.>This doesn't say 293,156 Mw PER year, but say TIMES year! (Joulesinstead of Watts) So instead of a lousy 9 square kilometers of solarpanels you are talking about: 3600*24*365*9,807,191=3.1E14 m^2 Ooops, OK, I see it. still, the solution is workable. The next paragraph youwrote shows that a (rough) doubling of reproduction time is all that isneeded.>That roughly means 48 weeks of robot creation. However, those robotshould create their own power supplies, so that would mean they could useno more than about 100 to 400 Watt (pretty efficient machines!!) The main jobs of the Robots would be gathering material, and puttingpieces together. The job of converting raw material into refined stockswould be the job of a central machine, (which would be fed by several tensof m^2 of solar panels. This is why I think that there might be some lowerlimit to the number of Robots needed to start a new colony >>Some general notes, I would suggest mercury as a better collection site,due to its proximity to our star.>Unluckely mercury doesn't have a moon. While its gravity is about 2.2moon gravities I wonder if our robots like the climate on the surface. They could be constructed out of materials that could handle the heat load. --Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 11:49:40 -0500From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Mime-Version:1.0To: Starship design group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Subject: starship-design: possible toolbar map error? Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Kelly,I checked the image map code and it looks strange to me. you have:<A href="../Lit_org_map.GIF.map"><IMG border=0 src="../Lit_org_map.GIF" ISMAP ALT="[image-map]"> </A>I see two possible reasons for it not working. 1) The <A href> line has a .GIF and a .MAP this could be confusing theserver 2) I have found that somethimes, in order to get maps to work, you must give the complete URL. Using the base href doesn't always work. 2a) you might have to put it in a sub-directory called cgi-bin. hope this helps--Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 12:33:45 -0500To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Update to the dev. LIT Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 6:20 PM 8/6/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:>>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) >>Yes, I also made the same (stupid) misspelling in the text of the mainLIT home page. Will correct ASAP.>Yesss!>And what a proofreader you think you are, Zenon, overlooking THAT?Shame to you, Zenon! ;-( >I wonder why you have missed such an opportunity to indulge in someZenon-bashing, Kelly? ;-) No chalenge, no interets. (Besides I missed it too.) I can wait until wedebate Kamakazi missions. ;) >-- Zenon>P.S. By your usual disregard for mail headers, your replies to me >came in three copies each... -- ZzzThe same three it came with. I thought you might prefer it. Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 12:43:39 -0500To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" <hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu> From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: possible toolbar map error? Cc: Starship design group <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu> Sender:owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 11:49 AM 8/6/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote: >Kelly,>I checked the image map code and it looks strange to me. >you have:><A href="../Lit_org_map.GIF.map">><IMG border=0 src="../Lit_org_map.GIF" ISMAP ALT="[image-map]"> </A>>I see two possible reasons for it not working. >1) The <A href> line has a .GIF and a .MAP this could be confusing theserver >2) I have found that somethimes, in order to get maps to work, you must >give the complete URL. Using the base href doesn't always work. >2a) you might have to put it in a sub-directory called cgi-bin. >hope this helps>-->Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Thanks. The other maps worked outside of a sub directory (when convertedfor Daves system) and gave the same error before conversion. So I'mhoping It'll work when instaled. If not, well at least they all reference thesame central map and Gif.I really wish I could test it on my system before I upload it. Or evencompletly test it on Daves before Its uploaded to LIT. (The Map standardsneed to get settled in HTML land.)Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f From: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> To: "'starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu'" <starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu>, InterWorld <InterWorld@InterWorld.com>,"'Brian_Levine_at_pnpur1@mail.brodeur.com'"<Brian_Levine_at_pnpur1@mail.brodeur.com>, "'Harris, Craig'"<craig.harris@compudata.com>, "'Faye, Hillary'" <HillaryF@cmbinfo.com>,"'Jackson, Kelly'" <kjteacher1@aol.com>To: "'Rosenthal, Matt'" <mattr@mit.edu>, "'Levine_M'"	 <LevineM@po1.phl.bls.gov>,"'Levine, Howard'" <hlevine@erols.com>Subject: starship-design: FW: Statement from Daniel S. Goldin, NASAAdministrator Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:52:18 -0400Mime-Version: 1.0Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: David Levine <David@InterWorld.com> Amazing stuff.-David>---------->From: 	Berman, Andrea[SMTP:andrea.berman@spmail.jsc.nasa.gov] Sent:	Tuesday, August 06, 1996 5:50 PM>To: 	David Levine; David Morgan; georg; Janet M. LoCastro; Marge; Matt R.;Matthew Bertrand; Phieng; Hwang, Erica; Minton, Jacquie; Norris, Lena>Subject: 	FW: Statement from Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator >Wow...>________________________________________________________________________ _______>From: NASA HQ Public Affairs Office on Tue, Aug 6, 1996 3:45 PM Subject: Statement from Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator To: press-release-nasa@venus.hq.nasa.gov >Laurie Boeder>Headquarters, Washington, DC	August 6, 1996>(Phone: 202/358-1898)>RELEASE: 96-159>STATEMENT FROM DANIEL S. GOLDIN, NASA ADMINISTRATOR >"NASA has made a startling discovery that points to the possibility that aprimitive form of microscopic life may have existed on Mars more thanthree billion years ago. The research is based on a sophisticatedexamination of an ancient Martian meteorite that landed on Earth some13,000 years ago. >The evidence is exciting, even compelling, but not conclusive. It is adiscovery that demands further scientific investigation. NASA is ready toassist the process of rigorous scientific investigation and livelyscientific debate that will follow this discovery. >I want everyone to understand that we are not talking about 'little greenmen.' These are extremely small, single- cell structures that somewhatresemble bacteria on Earth. There is no evidence or suggestion that anyhigher life form ever existed on Mars.>The NASA scientists and researchers who made this discovery will beavailable at a news conference tomorrow to discuss their findings. Theywill outline the step-by-step "detective story" that explains how themeteorite arrived here from Mars, and how they set about looking forevidence of long-ago life in this ancient rock. They will also release somefascinating images documenting their research. >-end-============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender:S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 01:04:22 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Subject: starship-design: Re: Statement from Daniel S. Goldin, NASAAdministrator Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.eduPrecedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) >Amazing stuff.>>Wow...Get a look at that august issue of Science... Timothy----------------------------------------------------------------- Donald SavageHeadquarters, Washington, DC	August 6, 1996(Phone: 202/358-1727)James HartsfieldJohnson Space Center, Houston, TX(Phone: 713/483-5111)David F. SalisburyStanford University, CA(Phone: 415/723-2558)NOTE TO EDITORS: N96-53NASA BRIEFING WEDNESDAY ON DISCOVERY OF POSSIBLE EARLY MARTIANLIFE A team of NASA and Stanford scientists will discuss its findings showingstrong circumstantial evidence of possible early Martian life, includingmicrofossil remains found in a Martian meteorite, at a news conferencescheduled for 1:00 p.m. EDT, August 7, at NASA Headquarters, 300 E. St.SW, Washington, DC. The team's findings will be published in the August16 issue of Science magazine. Panelists will be:- Dr. Wesley Huntress, Jr., NASA Assoc. Administrator for Space Science, 	Washington, DC- Dr. David McKay, principal author, NASA Johnson Space Center (JSC), 	Houston, TX- Dr. Everett Gibson, NASA JSC, Houston, TX - Dr. Richard N. Zare,Professor of Chemistry, Stanford University, CA - Kathy Thomas-Keprta,Lockheed-Martin, JSC, Houston, TX - Dr. William Schopf, Professor,Department of Earth and Space Sciences, 	 Univ. of California, LosAngelesThe briefing will be carried live on NASA TV with two- way question-and-answer capability for reporters covering the event from participatingNASA centers. Audio of the broadcast will be available on voice circuit atthe Kennedy Space Center by calling 407/867-1260.NASA Television is broadcast on Spacenet 2, transponder 5, channel 9, C-Band, located at 69 degrees West longitude, with horizontal polarization.Frequency will be on 3880.0 megahertz, with audio on 6.8 megahertz. - end -============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender:S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 01:04:26 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: The Size of the Problem Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To Kevin and Kelly,>>However, why is a substructure necessary? It is already known thatquarks can change flavour under influence of the weak force. Take forexample: n -> p + e- where a down-quark is changed in an up-quark >_>Okay, but how do you change a d quark into a d quark for example. My (again, limited)>understanding was that not enough of the right type of quarks are in asample of matter to allow one to create a sample of anit-matter. I wouldbe happy to learn that I am wrong on this.I'm not sure what you mean with the right type of quarks, but in ordinarymatter you only have normal (non-anti) quarks. In fact from the six normalquarks only the 2 with the lowest energy are in ordinary matter, namelythe up and down quarks.To change quarks to anti-quarks one needs theoretical particles calledLepto-quarks. The theories that predict these particles are not proofedand of course these particles are not found yet. Clearly these particles arenot everywhere around us, unless they are somehow savely locked away(maybe we could unlock them?). The latter is the only thing that would bereally useful, one could almost call it Zero point energy (ZPE).>What are the quark triplets needed for: Quark triplets are present in: Protons, Neutrons, Anti-Protons, Anti-Neutrons, these are called "Baryons". Electrons and Anti-Electrons are"Leptons" and have no know substructure, they do not react to the strongforce (which glues quarks together). How to make the weak-force? I'm not sure, to me it's of the strangestforces, since it actually can change particles, unlik other forces thatmainly do some gluing or repelling.One thing is sure, the weak force is doing some real work in making anunstable nucleus stable (beta decay, see the equation above). So in generalmaking unstable "normal" particles will invoke the weak force, or theelectromagnetic force (gamma-rays).However keep in mind that it can only change quark flavour (up, down etc.),not change quarks into anti-quarks.>>That roughly means 48 weeks of robot creation. However, those robotshould create their own power supplies, so that would mean they could useno more than about 100 to 400 Watt (pretty efficient machines!!) >The main jobs of the Robots would be gathering material, and puttingpieces together. The job of converting raw material into refined stockswould be the job of a central machine, (which would be fed by several tensof m^2 of solar panels. This is why I think that there might be some lowerlimit to the number of Robots needed to start a new colony But how much power would be needed to lift all that mass from the Moonor Mercury? On Earth making solar panels is a rather expensive procedure,essentially because so much high grade silicium is needed. I'm not surewhat makes it expensive; energy or processing-time. I hope for you it isthe latter. Timothy============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender:S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl Mime-Version: 1.0Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 15:12:13 +0100To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduFrom: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Subject: starship-design: Meteorite Yields Evidence of Primitive Life onEarly Mars Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.eduPrecedence: bulkReply-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Hi all,I assume that the US media is just about as crazy about this as in Holland,anyhow this may be some additional more precise info. Zenon are thePolish also making it big news?Timothy----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald L. SavageHeadquarters, Washington, DC	August 7, 1996(Phone: 202/358-1727)James HartsfieldJohnson Space Center, Houston, TX(Phone: 713/483-5111)David SalisburyStanford University, Palo Alto, CA(Phone: 415/723-2558)RELEASE: 96-160METEORITE YIELDS EVIDENCE OF PRIMITIVE LIFE ON EARLY MARS A NASA research team of scientists at the Johnson Space Center (JSC),Houston, TX, and at Stanford University, Palo Alto, CA, has found evidencethat strongly suggests primitive life may have existed on Mars more than3.6 billion years ago. The NASA-funded team found the first organic molecules thought to be ofMartian origin; several mineral features characteristic of biologicalactivity; and possible microscopic fossils of primitive, bacteria-likeorganisms inside of an ancient Martian rock that fell to Earth as ameteorite. This array of indirect evidence of past life will be reported inthe August 16 issue of the journal Science, presenting the investigation tothe scientific community at large for further study.The two-year investigation was co-led by JSC planetary scientists Dr.David McKay, Dr. Everett Gibson and Kathie Thomas-Keprta of Lockheed-Martin, with the major collaboration of a Stanford team headed byProfessor of Chemistry Dr. Richard Zare, as well as six other NASA anduniversity research partners. "There is not any one finding that leads us to believe that this is evidenceof past life on Mars. Rather, it is a combination of many things that wehave found," McKay said. "They include Stanford's detection of anapparently unique pattern of organic molecules, carbon compounds that arethe basis of life. We also found several unusual mineral phases that areknown products of primitive microscopic organisms on Earth. Structuresthat could be microsopic fossils seem to support all of this. Therelationship of all of these things in terms of location - within a fewhundred thousandths of an inch of one another - is the most compellingevidence." "It is very difficult to prove life existed 3.6 billion years ago on Earth, letalone on Mars," Zare said. "The existing standard of proof, which we thinkwe have met, includes having an accurately dated sample that containsnative microfossils, mineralogical features characteristic of life, andevidence of complex organic chemistry." "For two years, we have applied state-of-the-art technology to performthese analyses, and we believe we have found quite reasonable evidence ofpast life on Mars," Gibson added. "We don't claim that we have conclusivelyproven it. We are putting this evidence out to the scientific community forother investigators to verify, enhance, attack -- disprove if they can -- aspart of the scientific process. Then, within a year or two, we hope toresolve the question one way or the other.""What we have found to be the most reasonable interpretation is of suchradical nature that it will only be accepted or rejected after other groupseither confirm our findings or overturn them," McKay added. The igneous rock in the 4.2-pound, potato-sized meteorite has been age-dated to about 4.5 billion years, the period when the planet Mars formed.The rock is believed to have originated underneath the Martian surface andto have been extensively fractured by impacts as meteorites bombardedthe planets in the early inner solar system. Between 3.6 billion and 4billion years ago, a time when it is generally thought that the planet waswarmer and wetter, water is believed to have penetrated fractures in thesubsurface rock, possibly forming an underground water system. Since the water was saturated with carbon dioxide from the Martianatmosphere, carbonate minerals were deposited in the fractures. Theteam's findings indicate living organisms also may have assisted in theformation of the carbonate, and some remains of the microscopicorganisms may have become fossilized, in a fashion similar to theformation of fossils in limestone on Earth. Then, 16 million years ago, ahuge comet or asteroid struck Mars, ejecting a piece of the rock from itssubsurface location with enough force to escape the planet. For millionsof years, the chunk of rock floated through space. It encountered Earth'satmosphere 13,000 years ago and fell in Antarctica as a meteorite. It is in the tiny globs of carbonate that the researchers found a number offeatures that can be interpreted as suggesting past life. Stanfordresearchers found easily detectable amounts of organic molecules calledpolycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) concentrated in the vicinity ofthe carbonate. Researchers at JSC found mineral compounds commonlyassociated with microscopic organisms and the possible microscopicfossil structures.The largest of the possible fossils are less than 1/100 the diameter of ahuman hair, and most are about 1/1000 the diameter of a human hair -small enough that it would take about a thousand laid end-to-end to spanthe dot at the end of this sentence. Some are egg-shaped while others aretubular. In appearance and size, the structures are strikingly similar tomicroscopic fossils of the tiniest bacteria found on Earth. The meteorite, called ALH84001, was found in 1984 in Allan Hills icefield, Antarctica, by an annual expedition of the National ScienceFoundation's Antarctic Meteorite Program. It was preserved for study inJSC's Meteorite Processing Laboratory and its possible Martian origin wasnot recognized until 1993. It is one of only 12 meteorites identified so farthat match the unique Martian chemistry measured by the Vikingspacecraft that landed on Mars in 1976. ALH84001 is by far the oldest ofthe 12 Martian meteorites, more than three times as old as any other.Many of the team's findings were made possible only because of veryrecent technological advances in high- resolution scanning electronmicroscopy and laser mass spectrometry. Only a few years ago, many ofthe features that they report were undetectable. Although past studies ofthis meteorite and others of Martian origin failed to detect evidence ofpast life, they were generally performed using lower levels ofmagnification, without the benefit of the technology used in this research.The recent discovery of extremely small bacteria on Earth, callednanobacteria, prompted the team to perform this work at a much finerscale than past efforts.The nine authors of the Science report include McKay, Gibson and Thomas-Keprta of JSC; Christopher Romanek, formerly a National Research Councilpost-doctoral fellow at JSC who is now a staff scientist at the SavannahRiver Ecology Laboratory at the University of Georgia; Hojatollah Vali, aNational Research Council post-doctoral fellow at JSC and a staffscientist at McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada; and Zare,graduate students Simon J. Clemett and Claude R. Maechling and post-doctoral student Xavier Chillier of the Stanford University Department ofChemistry.The team of researchers includes a wide variety of expertise, includingmicrobiology, mineralogy, analytical techniques, geochemistry and organicchemistry, and the analysis crossed all of these disciplines. Furtherdetails on the findings presented in the Science article include: * Researchers at Stanford University used a dual laser mass spectrometer-- the most sensitive instrument of its type in the world -- to look forthe presence of the common family of organic molecules called PAHs.When microorganisms die, the complex organic molecules that theycontain frequently degrade into PAHs. PAHs are often associated withancient sedimentary rocks, coals and petroleum on Earth and can becommon air pollutants. Not only did the scientists find PAHs in easilydetectable amounts in ALH84001, but they found that these moleculeswere concentrated in the vicinity of the carbonate globules. This findingappears consistent with the proposition that they are a result of thefossilization process. In addition, the unique composition of themeteorite's PAHs is consistent with what the scientists expect from thefossilization of very primitive microorganisms. On Earth, PAHs virtuallyalways occur in thousands of forms, but, in the meteorite, they aredominated by only about a half-dozen different compounds. The simplicityof this mixture, combined with the lack of light- weight PAHs likenapthalene, also differs substantially from that of PAHs previouslymeasured in non-Martian meteorites. * The team found unusual compounds -- iron sulfides and magnetite --that can be produced by anaerobic bacteria and other microscopicorganisms on Earth. The compounds were found in locations directlyassociated with the fossil-like structures and carbonate globules in themeteorite. Extreme conditions -- conditions very unlikely to have beenencountered by the meteorite -- would have been required to producethese compounds in close proximity to one another if life were notinvolved. The carbonate also contained tiny grains of magnetite that arealmost identical to magnetic fossil remnants often left by certainbacteria found on Earth. Other minerals commonly associated withbiological activity on Earth were found in the carbonate as well. * The formation of the carbonate or fossils by living organisms while themeteorite was in the Antarctic was deemed unlikely for several reasons.The carbonate was age dated using a parent-daughter isotope method andfound to be 3.6 billion years old, and the organic molecules were firstdetected well within the ancient carbonate. In addition, the team analyzedrepresentative samples of other meteorites from Antarctica and found noevidence of fossil-like structures, organic molecules or possiblebiologically produced compounds and minerals similar to those in theALH84001 meteorite. The composition and location of PAHs organicmolecules found in the meteorite also appeared to confirm that thepossible evidence of life was extraterrestrial. No PAHs were found in themeteorite's exterior crust, but the concentration of PAHs increased in themeteorite's interior to levels higher than ever found in Antarctica. Higherconcentrations of PAHs would have likely been found on the exterior of themeteorite, decreasing toward the interior, if the organic molecules arethe result of contamination of the meteorite on Earth. Additional information may be obtained at 1 p.m. EDT via the Internet athttp://www.jsc.nasa.gov/pao/flash/-end------------------------------------------------------------------- David E. SteitzHeadquarters, Washington, DC	August 7, 1996(Phone: 202/358-1730)RELEASE: I96-6MARS METEORITE IMAGES AVAILABLE VIA THE INTERNET Photographs that support today's briefing at which a team of NASA andStanford scientists will discuss their findings showing strongcircumstantial evidence of possible early Martian life, includingmicrofossil ramains found in a Martian meteorite, are available via theInternet. Real time audio of today's briefing also will be available fromthese sites. The Internet World Wide Web URLs are:http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/pao/flashhttp://cu-ames.arc.nasa.gov/marslifehttp://rsd.gsfc.nasa.gov/marslife- end -NASA press releases and other information are available automatically bysending an Internet electronic mail message to domo@hq.nasa.gov. In thebody of the message (not the subject line) users should type the words"subscribe press-release" (no quotes). The system will reply with aconfirmation via E-mail of each subscription. A second automatic messagewill include additional information on the service. NASA releases also areavailable via CompuServe using the command GO NASA.============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f Date: Thu, 8 Aug 96 15:27:07 +0200From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: Re: starship-design: Meteorite Yields Evidence of Primitive Lifeon Early Mars Cc: zkulpa@ippt.gov.plSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) >From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) >I assume that the US media is just about as crazy about this as inHolland, anyhow this may be some additional more precise info. Zenon arethe Polish also making it big news?As yet, I have seen yesterday a short spot at main news on TV. Did'n lookat the press - I read some weekly papers only... -- Zenon============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.comMime-Version: 1.0Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:52:04 -0500To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Subject: Re: starship-design: Meteorite Yields Evidence of Primitive Lifeon Early Mars Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) At 3:12 PM 8/8/95, Timothy van der Linden wrote: >Hi all,>I assume that the US media is just about as crazy about this as inHolland, anyhow this may be some additional more precise info. Zenon arethe Polish also making it big news?>TimothyOh, theres a bit of interest. ;)Kelly---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39Hughes defense Communications1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com----------------------------------------------------------------------============================================ X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender toowner-starship-design using -f From: DotarSojat@aol.comDate: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:46:36 -0400To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.eduSubject: Re: starship-design: The Size of the Problem Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulkReply-To: DotarSojat@aol.comI quote myself:>A few plausible ways around the problem (requiring extensions ofphysics, however) come to mind:>2. Discover some ultra-cheap source of energy >(cold fusion?).Note that 1 cubic mile of (sea) water contains enough deuterium toprovide about 5,400 USEs from the fusion reaction(s)-- D + D + D --> He4 + n + p + 21.6 MeV .Rex