Meadville Space Center

Project Apollo - NASSP => Modeling => Topic started by: FordPrefect on August 26, 2005, 03:05:10 AM



Title: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: FordPrefect on August 26, 2005, 03:05:10 AM
Since TomPA, the creator of the NASSP 5 Saturn V mesh turned up in the Orbiter Forums again, helping to enhance the meshes, I thought it would be useful to have a thread to continue about the progress here on this board.

Initial thread is located here: http://orbit.m6.net/v2/read.asp?id=26173


Tom, I think we all welcome you to sign up here with Project Apollo, if you like to :D


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on August 30, 2005, 02:55:38 PM
Quote from: movieman
The new meshes should now work. You'll need to update Config, Mesh and the Saturn V source to get them.

That are really great news, I assume they are TomPA's work? :)

BTW: The texture of one side of the D fin seems to be upside down, is this a (fixable) bug in the mesh?

Thanks and cheers
Tschachim


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: movieman on August 30, 2005, 03:22:40 PM
Yes and don't know :).


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on August 31, 2005, 01:55:32 PM
Since I have no clue about meshes (and heard somewhere that's not possible to change a .msh file directly but it's necessary to have the "original format"  :?:  :?:  :?: ) and you seems to be in contact with TomPA it would be great if you could ask him for a fix?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on September 08, 2005, 11:05:01 AM
Hey guys!

I am currently working on new exhaust texture for the F-1 engines of the S-IC stage. The default/standard one doesn't look quite right so I started to make new ones. It is still work in progress, but here a first glimpse:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Rhinehornet/SaturnV_new_F1_blast.jpg)

What do you think?

And to all involved in coding, D., movieman, tschachim, x15 and all, I've tested a few scenarios with the latest CVS update - it is simply fantastic what you've done there! This project is getting always better and better!

Cheers,


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: orbiterfan on September 08, 2005, 11:36:59 AM
Very nice FordPrefect! Can't wait to see the finished work!


Title: O.O
Post by: spcefrk on September 09, 2005, 12:53:36 AM
Holy cow that's amazing!!! Can't wait.

Also, I had to reformat my HD, where can I find all the NASSP stuff to get back up to speed? Appreciate it.


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on September 09, 2005, 04:40:17 AM
Wow!  :shock:  :D
Great work, Ford Perfect! I almost can hear the engines!

BTW: Any news about the "D fin"?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Coussini on September 09, 2005, 06:58:10 AM
Wow.... wonderfull...

I like it....

 :shock:  :shock:


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: gimp1992 on September 13, 2005, 06:57:51 AM
"All engines running", fantastic wonderfull!!!!!


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on November 24, 2005, 03:46:07 AM
Hey all,

the next couple of days I've got some time left to resume working on the S-IC stage exhaust. For doing so I would like to ask you Tschachim or movieman for a little help:
Besides the textures I would like to try to improve the exhaust stream as defined in the saturn5 module. Since I have no compiling ability available, would it be possible for one of you to provide me an interim .dll of the respective part of the source code, which reads the exhaust stream parameters from an external file, which can be opened and altered simply with notepad or a similar program? So this would be just for testing purposes.
All the changes I would do in this external file, until I am satisfied with the  result in Orbiter. Then I could let you check it as well and if you give it a go we might include it in the real code for the next release...
Do you think that's possible? If so it would be great if either you tschachim or movieman could provide me with such a module.

Thanks for your help!


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on November 24, 2005, 01:23:59 PM
Well, it would be possible to read all this stuff from a file or the scenario, but it's quite an amount of work just for a test (... and I'm even more lazy than LazyD... :wink:).

No, just kidding, of course I can do this but perhaps you can also do a spacecraft2 prototype, I think you can all that with the spacecraft.dll, too and it's quite easy to put that from the spacecraft ini file to the real code. Orbiterfan and I are working together that way for the VAB.

If spacecraft.dll don't work I can do as you suggested, of course.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on November 24, 2005, 01:38:08 PM
Thanks Tschachim, I'll have a look as you suggested and try experimenting with spacecraft2.dll and its ini files.

Another idea: You may know that Dan's Deltaglider III has a visible transsonic shockwave created by defined particle streams (white vapour cloud) as soon as it goes supersonic. So this particle stream is speed related.
I was thinking about a similar feature on the Saturn V vehicle to have this shockwave at the appopriate positions (like the top of the SII stage and perhaps somewhere near the CM). Also it would be speed related and appeared only for one or two seconds when the Saturn goes supersonic...
like this:

(http://www.antiquark.com/img/apollo-11-supersonic.jpg)

what do you think?
If I am able to understand how this is done, I will have a look at this as well

Cheers


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on November 24, 2005, 01:47:06 PM
Cool idea, that would look great!  :)
If you can't do a speed depended particle stream with spacecraft you can also do a "static" prototype and we'll do the speed dependency in the real code later.

AFAIR the Saturn also "smokes" a lot on pad, feel free to do this, too...  :D

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Nicy photo from the past
Post by: Coussini on December 20, 2005, 05:05:36 PM
Look this photo. A good photo from the past. It's probably a ROBOT using light torch.

welding S-IC bulkhead

http://history.nasa.gov/MHR-5/Images/fig162b.jpg


Nicy  :wink:

(http://history.nasa.gov/MHR-5/Images/fig162b.jpg)

(http://history.nasa.gov/MHR-5/Images/fig183a.jpg)

(http://history.nasa.gov/MHR-5/Images/fig201.jpg)

(http://history.nasa.gov/MHR-5/Images/fig225.jpg)


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: NoName on January 03, 2006, 11:49:04 PM
:shock: Hey cool progress here :D Keep going! We need some good exhaust :) The new ones look phantastic!


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: orbiterfan on January 29, 2006, 01:23:41 PM
Thsi weekend I decided to play around to see if I could come up with particle stream that would immitate the F1 engine exhaust on teh Saturn V. After alot of experimenting, this is what I came up with:

And here's the code:
Code:
[PARTICLESTREAM_1]
NAME=F1_exhaust
SRCSIZE=2.85
SRCRATE=150000
V0=60
SRCSPREAD=0
LIFETIME=2
GROWTHRATE=-1
ATMSLOWDOWN=0
LTYPE=EMISSIVE
LEVELMAP=LVL_SQRT
LMIN=0
LMAX=1
ATMSMAP=ATM_PLOG
AMIN=1e-1140
AMAX=1
TEX=Contrail2




(http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/5219/newf1exhaust9xy.gif)


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: kneecaps on January 29, 2006, 06:33:57 PM
Yeah! I like that!

Can you get it to sort of merge together a little more and to fan out some more towards the bottoms rather than tapering in so much?

Still, it looks really good !


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: Tschachim on January 30, 2006, 06:48:30 AM
Hi Orbiterfan,

the new exhaust looks fine, I just want to try it and change the code, but I have 2 questions/problems:

The NASSP Saturn V uses 2 engine particle streams, the exhaust and the contrail. Should the new stream replace both of them or only one?

... and does "SRCRATE=150000" really means a rate of 150000 particles per second? The current exhaust uses a rate of 20 and I don't think a rate of 150000 would work with my graphic adapter, it already has problems with rates over 1000...

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: orbiterfan on January 30, 2006, 07:02:04 AM
Quote
The NASSP Saturn V uses 2 engine particle streams, the exhaust and the contrail. Should the new stream replace both of them or only one?

Both, as the Saturn is liquid fueled, hence leaving no SRB style contrail behind.

Quote
... and does "SRCRATE=150000" really means a rate of 150000 particles per second? The current exhaust uses a rate of 20 and I don't think a rate of 150000 would work with my graphic adapter, it already has problems with rates over 1000...

Well, I had to use such a high number to get the exhaust to look solid in the uper section. I'll see if I can use a lower nu,ber but still retain the solidness.


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: Tschachim on January 30, 2006, 10:14:53 AM
Hi Orbiterfan,

I did a small test and disabled the Saturn exhaust, the exhaust stream and the contrail stream and put in only your exhaust stream and to my surprise the rate of 150000 particles per second didn't effect my framerate more than the old one, looks like I was wrong, but I did had problems with huge rates when I did the prelaunch venting?

Anyway, it's working, but it doesn't look like your screenshot, I don't know if there are differences in the vessel or if my graphic adapter renderes the particles differently:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/SaturnExhaust.jpg)

Another point I would like to mention is that FordPerfect was working on a new exhaust texture ( http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=195 ) and I think it would be great to combine that efforts, but I don't know if he's still working on it and if you are already in contact with him?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: Tschachim on February 03, 2006, 06:42:33 AM
Hi Orbiterfan,

I would like to check the new exhaust on my PC using your original Spacecraft(2?).dll configuration to check possible graphic adapter issues, can you post the complete Spacecraft(2?).dll ini file you did?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: orbiterfan on February 03, 2006, 11:27:44 AM
Quote from: Tschachim
Hi Orbiterfan,

I would like to check the new exhaust on my PC using your original Spacecraft(2?).dll configuration to check possible graphic adapter issues, can you post the complete Spacecraft(2?).dll ini file you did?

Cheers
Tschachim

Actually, I used an old Skylab launch add-on(http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=orbstns&DLID=32419)
It's made for a previous version of Orbiter and multistage1.dll, so you need to adapt the scenario for it to use the standard Sol system and multistage2.dll.


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: orbiterfan on February 03, 2006, 12:50:35 PM
I have come up with a better exhaust that has a lower SRCRATE and should not impact the FPS so much any more.

Here's the code

Code:
[PARTICLESTREAM_2]
NAME=F1_exhaust
SRCSIZE=2.85
SRCRATE=1500
V0=60
SRCSPREAD=0
LIFETIME=1
GROWTHRATE=2
ATMSLOWDOWN=0
LTYPE=EMISSIVE
LEVELMAP=LVL_SQRT
LMIN=0
LMAX=1
ATMSMAP=ATM_PLOG
AMIN=1e-1140
AMAX=1
TEX=Contrail2


(http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/5416/newf1exhaust21pu.gif)


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: LazyD on February 05, 2006, 05:40:18 PM
Hi all,

I know it gives away my age, but I saw Apollo 8 lift off from Canaveral, and remember it clearly.  What the real photo doesn't show is that for a short distance below the nozzle (maybe 30-40m), there was a bright conical blue flame, below that the yellow turbulent fire was visible.  It looked quite like an oxy-acetylene welding torch, but trailing a lot of yellow fire.

I took many 35 mm photos of the liftoff, and I will ask my dad to scan them and send them to me.

What I don't have words to describe is the sound.  I was on the beach at Titusville, maybe 10 km away from the pad.  When the sound finally reached my position, I remember all the birds getting scared and flying away.  You could feel a rumbling in your belly, like the drum at a loud rock concert, and there was also a crackling explosive sound.

If I can get the pictures, I'll share them here,

D.


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: Coussini on February 06, 2006, 05:38:11 AM
Wow... icredeable history...

You had a wonderfull moment... That's great... the sound should be like a bomb ;)


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: missleman01 on March 02, 2006, 03:40:11 PM
Hey guys. Im looking to update that old Multistage skylab addon you guys are talking about. Its mine from a while back. Im gonna add an included update to the new dll, and try to get some more features added.

One thing I would like is to use this new exhaust configuration if you dont mind?


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: orbiterfan on March 02, 2006, 03:48:57 PM
Quote from: missleman01
One thing I would like is to use this new exhaust configuration if you dont mind?

Sure! Also, I have an accurate F1 engine sound available if you want it.


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on April 07, 2006, 01:51:47 PM
Well, sorry for long time of no activity here. I will finish the exhaust textures well before the next main NASSP release. While I am at it, I try to model new F-1 engines as well. The current ones are beautiful, no doubt, but they resemble not the "flown" hardware, because on all Saturn V's that were actually launched the F-1 engines were foil batted. Maybe it's a bit nitpicking, but aren't we striving for realism as much as possible?  :wink:
For more info look here:
http://www.apollosaturn.com/modeling/foilbatt/batt.htm


Title: New Saturn V F-1 engine exhaust code
Post by: Tschachim on April 25, 2006, 12:03:29 PM
The Saturn V in the beta from today (20060425) uses Orbiterfan's particlestream he posted above, comments are always welcome... :wink:

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: movieman on May 26, 2006, 06:59:56 AM
Anyone feel like removing the forward interstage on the SII and making it a seperate mesh? I've been thinking of starting on some of the Saturns that were planned but never flew, and some of them put the SIVb directly on top of the SIc using the SII/SIVb interstage:

http://www.astronautix.com/data/satvint.pdf

Or was that already done for the VAB assembly sequence?

Would be useful to split off the SIc and SII engines as well, so we can build the 3- and 4-engined variants, and the SIVb IU section, which was reused on the SII/SIc variants with no SIVb.

I could try it myself, but Orbiter doesn't like Lightwave much.


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: movieman on May 26, 2006, 07:15:32 AM
At some point we'd also need stretched SIc/SII/SIVb stages. One option would be to split the mesh into a top and bottom section and duplicate part of the stage to create a middle section: a normal Saturn V would just use the top and bottom meshes, a stretched Saturn would use top, middle and bottom.

Of course most of these designs would be incompatible with the Saturn V launch tower.

Edit: actually, looks like they stretched each of the fuel tanks, so we'd need top, middle, bottom and stretched tank sections. Maybe stretched meshes would be easier.

Also, seperate attachment point meshes for the SRBs and liquid-fuelled boosters for the real big Saturns (13 F-1s burning at launch!).


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on May 26, 2006, 07:38:27 AM
Hi movieman,
Quote from: movieman
Anyone feel like removing the forward interstage on the SII and making it a seperate mesh?

Is ProjectApollo/sat5stg2base.msh what you need?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Swatch on May 26, 2006, 09:11:30 AM
I can stretch that sorta thing in no time flat...but the textures won't match either.  I can also get you a seperate interstage mesh pretty quickly.


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: movieman on May 26, 2006, 09:28:30 AM
Presumably if it's stretched the U,V coordinates for the texture will remain the same?

Ah, but any writing on the sides of the tanks will get stretched if we're not careful.

I guess we could leave the stretch for the moment, but if you could remove the SIc and SII center engines and make them seperate meshes that would be useful. I'll add them back in to the Saturn V DLL.


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: movieman on May 26, 2006, 01:05:32 PM
Ok, so there is an interstage mesh, and it fits almost perfectly :).


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Swatch on June 02, 2006, 11:07:11 AM
Currently I'm on a crusade to optimize the Saturn V mesh a bit...it's not so much that it has a lot of polygons (which it does), it's that the first stage alone has nearly 1800 mesh groups....and the more mesh groups you have, the more taxing it is on orbiter.  along the way we might even get the vertex count down a bit.


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Swatch on June 02, 2006, 05:20:03 PM
update your mesh folder...


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on June 03, 2006, 08:34:28 AM
... and your textures folder.

Cool, you fixed the markings on the fins and added a texture at the bottom of the S-IC. Because of the framerate I'm not sure, directly after starting the "Apollo 11 Quickstart" it seems to be the same (about 10fps), but if only the Saturn is in sight it seems to be better now, I have to do more tests.

What changes do I miss? ;)

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Swatch on June 04, 2006, 10:20:54 AM
oh yea...forgot I did the texture work....

Changes:

~SIC fins corrected
~SIC bottom texture finally added (I've had it done for about a month now)
~material definitions are corrected so that things don't look quite so overexposed at launch in 2006, still a lot to go with this for tweaking.
~SIC mesh reduced from 1670 mesh groups to 50
~SII mesh reduced from 2000+ mesh groups to ~75
~SIVB mesh reduced from 500 meshgroups to ~170 (more to go on that one)


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: brittany_Apollo8_fan on June 21, 2006, 07:43:44 AM
Don't forget the interstage between the second and third stage is turned the 180 degrees the wrong way.


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on June 21, 2006, 03:14:14 PM
Hey all,

I am trying to improve the Saturn V textures so the exterior will look more authentic. I was looking through lots of photos of the Saturn V last night and realized the surface is not all perfect white colour, but there are different shades of brown, yellow and grey in special patterns visible (mostly caused by the underlying structure, I guess).
So I started to work on new textures. I will try to do eventually do all the textures required for all Saturn V stages, although I am somewhat limited, since not all stages use textures, like the SIC interstage...

Here is a first test, I saved the texture in DXT1 format, hence the unwanted "hard" lines, which actually should be much smoother/softer:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Rhinehornet/S2stage_test1.jpg

Are the exhaust textures still needed I was working on in the past, now that we will have the new exhaust code in NASSP 7? If yes, I will finish these.


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Swatch on June 21, 2006, 04:44:16 PM
If you ask me I'd like to have your exhast textures there since they'll only add to what the particle textures do for the rocket.  the existing pure white ones are odd looking.

Also, great looking new textures!


Title: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on June 21, 2006, 05:09:22 PM
Me, too, your screenshot was looking very promising!

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Ugly smoke
Post by: keplero on September 20, 2006, 08:35:31 AM
Hello, I'm a new user from Italy!
First of all, I'm really enjoying Project Apollo and I want to thank all the persons that are working with.

Ok, I have a question: is it possible to replace the ugly smoke (indicated in the picture) with something more realistic (like that of the STS mission addon)? If yes, how?

Thanks to all. :)


Title: Re: Ugly smoke
Post by: Swatch on September 20, 2006, 09:13:43 AM
I can't see why not, I'll look into the code and see where that is defined....  anyone else have any suggestions?

What do you guys think?  Particle effect or textured?  Does anyone have any clues as to what the J-2 exhast looks like?


Title: Re: Ugly smoke
Post by: orbiterfan on September 20, 2006, 02:29:36 PM
Does anyone have any clues as to what the J-2 exhast looks like?
I would guess it would similar to the SSMEs after SRB sep.


Title: Re: Ugly smoke
Post by: BigDAS on September 20, 2006, 04:03:44 PM
What your seeing there is a flame effect, not smoke, normally caused by rapid oxydation of combustable gasses, and would not appear like that after leaving the atmosphere. Partical effect would not be realistic either. I suggest a solid texture, maybe blue or yellow.


Title: Re: Ugly smoke
Post by: thermocalc on September 20, 2006, 06:25:47 PM
Eila' Keplero,
sono un tuo connazionale, contattami sul mio email personale che facciamo quattro chiacchiere su Orbiter.
salutoni.


Title: Re: Ugly smoke
Post by: Swatch on September 23, 2006, 04:21:14 PM
I'm going to have to disagree to a point with you BigDAS, I think you'd still see some flame effect in the thin atmosphere, but I agree that it wouldn't look like that....

This is what I've come up with so far.

(http://swatch.homeip.net/orbiter/Old comparison.jpg)

vs.

(http://swatch.homeip.net/orbiter/New comparison.jpg)

Judged from the following picture...

(http://history.nasa.gov/MHR-5/Images/fig296.jpg)

Next I'm going to look into either another texture or a particle effect to simulate the expanded plume caused by the low barometric pressure at altitude.



EDIT: COMMITED!


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: orbiterfan on September 23, 2006, 08:40:02 PM
Swatch: That photo is taken at ground level with sea-level pressure. The real J2 on the Saturns lighted up when most of the atmosphere and pressure was gone.

Take a look on the exhaust of the SSMEs during launch and ascent. There you can see the classic SSME exhaust with the blue mach diamond pretty well up until about 1 minute, 30 seconds into flight when they're so faint that they're invisible.

The only visual sign that the engines are firing is a bright white glow only seen when looking directly at the back of the engines.

This all is due to pressure lessning and becoming lower and the exhaust expanding until it cannot keep itself togheter anymore.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: BigDAS on September 23, 2006, 08:46:37 PM
Good point. After the craft leaves the atmophere, there should be virtually no exhaust trail at all, just that glow inside the engine cowlings. Easy to impliment.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: movieman on September 23, 2006, 09:02:52 PM
Certainly if you look at the engineering film footage from the Apollo launches there's barely any sign of exhaust gases: though they're generally either looking up or down through the exhaust plume rather than seeing it from the side.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Zachstar on September 23, 2006, 10:39:20 PM
A time when my avatars might just be useful?  :shock:

(http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/6388/srbvid2mz4.gif)

(http://test.virtualunitedairlines.net/Graphics/Avatars/sts115launchava2.GIF)

(http://test.virtualunitedairlines.net/Graphics/Avatars/sts115launchava3.GIF)

But for better ideas I suggest you check out the STS-121 and STS-115 SRB Videos for more detailed looks.

STS-115 Launch http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=882

STS-115 SRB Videos http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=952

STS-121 SRB Video http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/on_demand_video.html?param=|http://mfile.akamai.com/18565/rm/etouchsyst2.download.akamai.com/18355/real.nasa-global/sts-121/right_aft_srb.ram|http://mfile.akamai.com/18566/wmv/etouchsyst2.download.akamai.com/18355/wm.nasa-global/sts-121/right_aft_srb_camera.asx


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Swatch on September 23, 2006, 11:43:29 PM
Understood, but does anyone have a guess as to how to simulate this?  I know that if we didn't give our fans anything, they'd be uber-disappointed, That's why I tried to keep it interesting, however definately dissipating the exhast a good deal more than the initial one.

Where can I get ahold of aforementioned Engineering camera film?  I would like to see it.

Additionally, I was aware that the photo was taken at sea-level pressure, however it was just about the only photograph I could dig up with images of the J-2 firing.  I still figured that there'd be a small amount of atmosphere at J-2 ignition, so I figured there'd still be an exhast plume of sorts.

Once again, if anyone else could suggest anything, I'd appreciate it.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Zachstar on September 23, 2006, 11:55:14 PM
Well atleast with the SSME engines the bright stuff is right at the engine exast start. So I suggest you start with a way to show a very bright start with a particle trailing off sort of how you do now.

Edit: You can see in the SSME launch video the "effect" this brightness has with a very small amount of plume going out. Reminds me of an icy effect for some reason.

A similar battle of the exast is going on with SimC's "Direct" addon check this topic page out http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4106&posts=119&mid=71563

That effect will be realistic enough in my opinion. :twocents22:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: orbiterfan on September 24, 2006, 03:15:19 AM
Well for STS-115 the altitude at T+1 min, 30 sec was 24 579 m. I believe the staging altitude of S-1C/S-2 is higher than that. Actually you can see a precursor to this effect during S-1C burn with the exhaust from the F1's climbing the entire length of the stage!


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Swatch on September 24, 2006, 11:51:55 AM
Here's are some interesting pictures...  useful in exhast texture development...

(http://www.jrbassett.com/apollo/APLC15.JPG)

(http://www.boeing.com/news/feature/apollo11/gallery/images/apollo11h72.jpg)

(http://www.ilexikon.com/images/5/58/Apollo11_-_Saturn_launch_with_American_flag.jpg)

(http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/0/10074873.jpg)

(http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/00181/apollo-7.jpg)

(http://my.execpc.com/~culp/space/as07_lau.jpg)

(http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/mirrors/images/images/pao/APOLL_OV/10074672.jpg)

(http://www.ksc.nasa.gov/mirrors/images/images/pao/APOLL_OV/10074680.jpg)

(http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/lores/S68-48666.jpg)


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Zachstar on September 24, 2006, 04:32:57 PM
Good! Will be looking forward to the effect you come up with. :Excited432:

Now that I think about it tho you had a good idea going with the 3rd stage and other then adding the "brightness" for when you are looking at it from the rear I say don't change that effect all that much. :yes77:

Thanks for the efforts!!  :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: BigDAS on September 24, 2006, 05:26:45 PM
Here's a relatively clear video of the last launch. Notice the exhaust trails.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Um5EiaAxo



Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Swatch on September 30, 2006, 12:07:37 AM
Unrelated to aforementioned J-2 exhasts, but related to Launch Vehicles....

Little Joe II mesh/texture and Little Joe II launcher mesh are now uploaded into CVS, hopefully we'll be able to just do a standard config file to take care of these, I don't think we need a complicated .dll.   They pretty much just launch, go up fire the escape system and and fall to earth, pretty simple.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Zachstar on September 30, 2006, 12:46:18 AM
Wow good job!  :ThumbsUp432:

Btw can we see a pic of the current J-2 exasts?


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: orbiterfan on September 30, 2006, 04:01:15 AM
Unrelated to aforementioned J-2 exhasts, but related to Launch Vehicles....

Little Joe II mesh/texture and Little Joe II launcher mesh are now uploaded into CVS, hopefully we'll be able to just do a standard config file to take care of these, I don't think we need a complicated .dll.   They pretty much just launch, go up fire the escape system and and fall to earth, pretty simple.
Unfortunatley standard bare-bone *.cfg files cannot handle staging events. For that you need a custom DLL like Vinka's multistage2.dll.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Swatch on September 30, 2006, 08:13:24 AM
sorry, that's what I meant, just use Vinka's....I shoulda said .ini file, not .cfg file.    DOH! :awwcrap4253:

Zachstar, on the previous page, there's a comparison shot between old and the second-newest version (only slight changes went into the one that is commited, so I didn't redo the screenie)


Title: Saturn V mesh orientation bugs
Post by: Tschachim on September 30, 2006, 11:45:43 AM
Hi Swatch,

by the way: you mentioned somewhere (I don't find the posts anymore) that you are going to fix that:

Don't forget the interstage between the second and third stage is turned the 180 degrees the wrong way.

and AFAIR some of the other parts of the Saturn V have to be turned, too. It's just we shouldn't forget that, it's easy to change (and a little bit embarrassing for us :wink:).

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Swatch on September 30, 2006, 01:28:52 PM
Sorry, I had that done, but lost it when CVS died a while ago....I forgot about it after that....I can do this now.  What all needs rotating?


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on September 30, 2006, 04:37:40 PM
That's the problem, I can't remember, too. I'll try to check some pictures. Help is welcome! :)

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on September 30, 2006, 05:46:16 PM
If you look here: http://www.history.nasa.gov/alsj/a13/ap13-69-HC-1269HR.jpg
it looks like the S-1C is fine, at least the fins and the "feed line" match the photo. The SII is wrong, see black markings of the SII/SIVB interstage and the feed line.  I'm not sure about the SIVB, but at least the white square in the black ring is at a different place...

Thanks a lot for looking at that!  :)

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Saturn V mesh orientation bugs
Post by: Tschachim on November 09, 2006, 11:24:45 AM
Hi Swatch,

any news about that?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Saturn V mesh orientation bugs
Post by: Swatch on November 10, 2006, 01:38:41 AM
Alas...no news...I've been quite busy with school recently, but don't let the discourage you guys from bugging me to do it!  :D

I admit, I've been unable to do much at all recently with this, it seems every time I plan on doing this, I have a professor assigning a project or scheduling an exam (I have 2 on Monday, 1 on Tues and Homework due Tues, Wed, Thurs).  Hopefully I'll have plenty of time after that though, and I don't think that even my professors are evil enough to keep that up for more than a week.  If nothing else, I'll be back in full swing over Xmas break and afterwards (for the CM, etc.) but this I should get done soon if you guys keep reminding me about it!  :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Saturn V mesh orientation bugs
Post by: Tschachim on November 10, 2006, 05:30:25 AM
Hi Swatch,

I wish you good luck and success for all your exams! :)
I hope you'll do them well and you'll be back soon to continue your great work, especially with the meshes!

Cheers
Tschachim



Title: Re: Saturn V mesh orientation bugs
Post by: Christophe on November 10, 2006, 11:43:36 AM
Good luck for your exams Swatch!  :ThumbsUp432:
In france, we use to wish merde ! to people that are having some tests... it's our way to bring good luck :wink:


Title: Re: Saturn V mesh orientation bugs
Post by: Tschachim on March 05, 2007, 09:02:15 AM
I turned the S-II stage 180°, so this bug is fixed finally (except perhaps some minor bugs with the S-IVB):


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on March 11, 2007, 12:45:29 PM
Hey all,

while playing around with the new Saturn V Rollout feature, I discovered some small flaws with the Saturn V textures. Since I am a plastic modeller myself (always having an eye for the detail) I wanted to improve this and now made a new one. I am talking about the big "U S A" letters on the SIC stage. Thomas Ruth textures obviously depict the typefont used only on Apollo 4 and Apollo 6. All other missions did use a different typefont. The difference is barely visible, but most prominent in the letter "S" though. Also the U S A letter's position was a bit off as well. If nobody objects I can submit this new "s1c.dds" (512x512px) over at sourceforge. Sometime Tschachim or whoever may try to incorporate the texture in that way that it's gonna be used for all Saturn V vehicles except Apollo 4 and 6 (these would be fine with Thomas Ruth textures as I found out after researching all afternoon).
Also, I will make new textures for the SII stage, since there's also an incorrect typefont used right now for the "UNITED STATES". I do all the letters manually, tracing them using photos and other references btw. I plan to do SIC and SII textures with 1024px resolution as well, for more detail, looks better. Critique welcome...

Here's a cropped screenshot with the new texture:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Rhinehornet/Screenshot_New_S1C_USA_textures.jpg)



Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: movieman on March 11, 2007, 01:00:36 PM
Yeah, I had a play with textures myself ages ago but never got too far. I don't see any problem with increasing the size now 128MB and 256MB cards are so common.

Is there a way to change the textures used on a mesh so we can have different textures for different missions?


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on March 11, 2007, 02:07:49 PM
Yeah, I had a play with textures myself ages ago but never got too far. I don't see any problem with increasing the size now 128MB and 256MB cards are so common.

Is there a way to change the textures used on a mesh so we can have different textures for different missions?

ok, I will do them in 1024x1024 pixels resolution as well.

I am not sure how changing the textures on the same mesh in Orbiter works. For example the CM changes the texture during reentry to this "burnt" looking texture. Eventually we could also simply use different mesh files (e.g. sat5stg115.msh for Apollo 15 a.s.o.) which use different textures (s1c15.dds). Yes, different textures for different missions would be interesting, I like the idea. Perhaps I will have a go at this as well.
Also, the SIC stage exterior look changes quite remarkably during ascent, maybe I can make textures for this too, this texture could be called the same way the "burnt" CM texture is called in Orbiter.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: movieman on March 11, 2007, 02:09:29 PM
Quote
For example the CM changes the texture during reentry to this "burnt" looking texture.

From what I remember it's a different mesh, which is a bit wasteful when you just want to change the texture.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on March 11, 2007, 02:33:36 PM
Is there a way to change the textures used on a mesh so we can have different textures for different missions?

oapiSetTexture, API reference, page 196.  :)


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Swatch on March 11, 2007, 03:11:45 PM
One of the things I'm working on with the CMVC is getting a SINGLE set of model/meshes for the CM so that we can use the oapiSetTexture instead of 4 different meshes...

It's my experience that 1024x1024 textures tend to be overly taxing on a system....so if possible, my suggestion is to try it with 512x512 and see if there's any appreciable difference. 

There are other ways of making this work too, such as placing all the lettering for the entire vehicle onto one 1024x1024 texture and then applying the texture to "panels" on the side of the Saturn V.  I did this on the SM for the flag, which has a resolution much greater than the other panels so that I could show accurate stars.

My suggestion is to place all the lettering textures onto a single texture, and make two different textures (one for one set, one for the other) and then we can load whichever one is needed.  Just make sure that the orientation of both textures is fairly closely aligned and the mesh can use the same UV coordinates.  Additionally, the letter mesh should have transparency values and make anything that isn't lettering invisible, making it blend into the Launch Vehicle better.  For vehicle coloring (the black vs white areas), that should be done outside of textures and the mesh should have defined color areas which can be set, but that is another issue entirely.

That's my  :twocents22:...

~Swatch

PS. Thanks to Tschachim for finally correcting the alignment problems...I kept forgetting, and I'm sorry for that.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: NoName on March 19, 2007, 01:44:30 AM
I'm just right now fixing and finishing the last details of the lower equipment bay. The side panel bitmaps will be updated too. Sorry for the big delay of the new interior stuff. As soon as it's 100% finished (it's about 90% at the moment) I'll send you a special set of the new background bitmaps...

 


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: movieman on May 06, 2007, 08:29:17 PM
BTW, for those who missed it, Tschachim has checked in some new Saturn V meshes which greatly reduce the number of mesh groups. I'm seeing about a 50% improvement in frame rate; it seems the number of mesh groups is the limiting factor for performance on the current version of Orbiter, more than the number of polygons.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on May 07, 2007, 03:17:29 AM
Yes, more info is here (http://www.orbitersim.com/Forum/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=13884), perhaps I'm going to do that for more meshes, it depends on if we can get rid of the current one mesh group = one vertex buffer restriction, we'll see...

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on May 24, 2007, 01:12:06 PM
By the way, FordPerfect, any news about the Saturn texture improvements you were talking about?


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on May 24, 2007, 04:28:29 PM
Hi Tschachim,

I put the texture development on hold for a while. The S1C stage texture I had shown previously is ready so far, I tried to commit it with CVS just a few minutes ago, but I get an error message "Empty password used - try 'cvs login' with a real password
cvs [server aborted]: "commit" requires write access to the repository  Error, CVS operation failed"

So I attach the file to this post, perhaps you can commit it this way?! I will see what I can do to further improve the textures this weekend. Swatch earlier mentioned, textures in 1024x1024 size are too resource intense. If this is the case I can stay with 512x512 pixels sized textures. I have a few more ideas about textures development which I will post here soon.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: orbiterfan on May 24, 2007, 05:17:57 PM
Hi Tschachim,

I put the texture development on hold for a while. The S1C stage texture I had shown previously is ready so far, I tried to commit it with CVS just a few minutes ago, but I get an error message "Empty password used - try 'cvs login' with a real password
cvs [server aborted]: "commit" requires write access to the repository  Error, CVS operation failed"
This is because you're using an anonymous log-in to access the CVS. To be able to commit anything you need to have sourceforge log-in and be official NASSP developer. Tschachim can do the latter if you get a proper sourceforge log-in.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on May 24, 2007, 05:26:03 PM
Thanks FordPerfect, I'll put it in.  :)

But you already are NASSP developer (fordprefect2005), you need to re-do the initial checkout as explained here: http://nassp.sf.net/wiki/Introduction_to_CVS.

EDIT: Texture is committed, thanks again!

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on May 26, 2007, 06:04:44 AM
Tschachim, I just realized that the texture file I've posted above obviously doesn't show up correctly in Orbiter, well it isn't displayed at all. I have discovered that I saved it as a DTX1 .dds file, and this looks to be the cause. I could solve this problem when saving the texture in DXT5 format, though the file size increased from 128 kb to 342 kb. If you have the same problem, I've attached the new file to this message. Sorry for the messing  :oops:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on May 26, 2007, 07:56:05 AM
Yes, same here, but the version in CVS is fixed already, I used DXTBmp to "repair" it, the file is still DXT1 and 171kb.

By the way: What about a S-II and S-IVB texture? The Saturn V looks a little bit strange with the now-differently colored upper stages...   :)

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: movieman on May 31, 2007, 05:37:53 AM
BTW, do the low-res meshes have the same problem with vast numbers of mesh groups as the high-res meshes did?


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on May 31, 2007, 05:43:15 AM
Yes, I'll fix that later (or someone else is faster then me :wink:), I need to commit the stuff I'm currently working on at first, too many building sites...

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on August 19, 2007, 07:25:01 AM
Yes, same here, but the version in CVS is fixed already, I used DXTBmp to "repair" it, the file is still DXT1 and 171kb.

By the way: What about a S-II and S-IVB texture? The Saturn V looks a little bit strange with the now-differently colored upper stages...   :)

Cheers
Tschachim

Tschachim, attached you will find the new S2-Stage texture. For some reason I can't get a working s2.dds in DXT1 compression out of DXTbmp. Now I converted it with Orbiter util "DxTex", though now it is 1MB instead of the 129 kB of the previous original s2.dds file. On the other side, there is some recognizable loss in quality in DXT1, maybe I did s.th. wrong.

Anyway, here's the new S2-Stage texture...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Rhinehornet/NewS2tex.jpg)



Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: NoName on August 19, 2007, 11:11:51 AM
Wow, looks phantastic. Great work :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: mikaelanderlund on August 19, 2007, 01:52:14 PM
Cool :Excited432:

Mikael


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on August 20, 2007, 05:35:19 AM
Tschachim, attached you will find the new S2-Stage texture. For some reason I can't get a working s2.dds in DXT1 compression out of DXTbmp. Now I converted it with Orbiter util "DxTex", though now it is 1MB instead of the 129 kB of the previous original s2.dds file. On the other side, there is some recognizable loss in quality in DXT1, maybe I did s.th. wrong.

Yes, DXT1 uses a different color format, which leads to a slight loss in quality, but despite that I committed it in DXT1 instead of RGBA8 because RGBA8 isn't recommended in the Orbiter docu and uses a vast amout of resources, I hope you don't mind. If you are unhappy with the quality of certain parts of the texture it would also be possible to do smaller, higher res "patch" textures of these parts, like the US flag of the SM for example as explained by Swatch in this thread.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on August 20, 2007, 12:37:01 PM
No problem Tschachim, thanks for comitting the file.


Title: Re: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: Swatch on August 20, 2007, 01:16:44 PM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Rhinehornet/SaturnV_new_F1_blast.jpg)


What ever happened to these textures?  Did you lose them, and if not, could we have them?

I still really like the look of them.


Title: Re: Saturn V launch vehicle enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on November 23, 2007, 03:43:22 PM
What ever happened to these textures?  Did you lose them, and if not, could we have them?

I still really like the look of them.

Swatch, sorry for the late reply.  :oops:
Yes I still have them here on my HD. Surely you can have it, I didn't manage to finetune them yet so they fit the nozzle perfectly, this was the only reason I did not release them.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Swatch on November 23, 2007, 04:50:27 PM
That would be great!  Feel free to email it to me whenever you get the chance.  That would be awesome!


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Coussini on November 24, 2007, 09:32:49 AM
That would be great!  Feel free to email it to me whenever you get the chance.  That would be awesome!

I prefer this texture too. That's awesome !


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: NoName on November 24, 2007, 09:42:03 AM
These textures definitely is a must have for project apollo!


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on November 24, 2007, 06:58:44 PM
Hey Swatch, Moonwalker and all,

attached to this post you will find the last version of the F-1 exhaust texture I had created back in 2005 (  :sigh43: ). It still may need some tweaking, especially the texture is a tad too wide at the top, extending outside of the F-1 engine nozzle partly (requires some improvement on the alpha channel texture). Well, you can all test it yourself now; another thing I was not too happy about is the appearance from lower or higher angles (anything but at eye level with the engines), as then one can clearly spot it is a 2D texture only. If anyone wants to give it a shot and improve it, don't hesitate! At the moment I don't know if I will do that myself in the near future, maybe...

The reason is I am currently working on a different project for NASSP I hope I can show some results of soon  :roll:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Swatch on November 24, 2007, 07:13:40 PM
thank you kindly


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on December 02, 2007, 09:22:09 AM
Hey guys! This video is really worth watching. It shows some gorgeous sharp and clear footage of the S1C staging and SII ignition!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XKtH0uzg8wU

Some ideas had evolved of watching this nice vid:

1) Is it possible to create dummy thrusters (particle sources; particles in reddish, orange, yellow color) which continuesly (slowly) move up during the S1C stage burn, to simulate the increasing backflow of the S1C stage exhaust plume? (This happens due to the exhaust stream pressure overcoming the decreasing dynamic pressure.) Preferably these dummy thrusters have the same location as the four outer F-1 engines at lift-off. With proceeding time (and increasing altitude), the positions of the four dummy thrusters move up along the longitudinal axis of the first stage to a point roughly above the top edge of the black color patches (where the USA letters are located in between) at the time of S1C engine cut-off. And could we add the unburnt fuel flowing out of the F-1 engines after first stage shutdown, like you can see in the video?

2) Also we might change the brightness and colour of the S2 engines exhaust to that white/light blueish tint (new texture? particle stream?). Additionally we might change the S2 engine ignition visualization, so it looks like in the video above, the engines do not ignite instantly to the full level (brightness) but the do so in about 1 to 1 1/2 seconds.

Another thing directed to Tschachim, is it possible to extend the lifetime and slowdown the velocity of the particles which are created during the SIVB/CSM separation so the linger around the SIVB stage during T/D for a longer time (maybe around 3 or 4 minutes)? There are videos and photos which show some substantial debris floating around the SIVB stage on the real Apollo missions.

Furthermore, regarding my 1) point, I am thinking about creating a second S1C stage texture which resembles a "burnt" stained look caused by that backflowing exhaust. It would be stained at the lower portion of the stage. Perhaps the S1C mesh using this new texture could replace the original mesh on the fly or we delete the first mesh and create the new mesh during staging? I think it would be nice to see a "dirty" S1C stage falling away through staging. Could this be done in a similar manner like the change of the CM "burnt" texture?

And lastly, has anyone already tried computerex' "sonic boom" to create a visible shock wave around the top of the S2 stage when the Saturn hits Mach 1? I will test this myself later today, maybe I can get some good result.

Any feedback is welcome. By posting this I do not want to hurry anyone of you, just to write down ideas for possible (visual) improvements in the future.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Coussini on December 02, 2007, 09:47:39 AM
WOW, There's a good idea. Fine  :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: FordPrefect on December 02, 2007, 05:21:31 PM
O.k. , I tweaked the color of the S2 engine exhaust texture and cleaned its alpha channel up a bit in order it looks closer to what can be seen in the video (link in my previous post).

Here a few screenshots for you to decide if you like it.

Two long range photos using Telescope MFD during staging:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Rhinehornet/S2staging_1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Rhinehornet/S2staging_2.jpg)

and one close up shot:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Rhinehornet/S2staging_closeup.jpg)

and in motion:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Rhinehornet/S1staging_small.gif)


Do you like the new texture colors/brightness?




Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Coussini on December 02, 2007, 05:37:13 PM
Terrific  :yes77: :yes77: :ThumbsUp432: :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Swatch on December 02, 2007, 05:44:36 PM
I love the look from far away, but I think up close (the last picture) its just a bit too blue.  Maybe tone back the blue a bit and it'd be great.  Definitely like the brighter look.

Or better yet, just the trailing exhaust  bitmap, not the circular part.  It's good to have the blue glow right at the engine nozzle.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: jc121081 on December 02, 2007, 09:32:56 PM
Wow! Excellent job!  :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Zachstar on December 02, 2007, 09:48:00 PM
Amazing work!

Please keep up with those improvements!


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Tschachim on December 03, 2007, 07:45:13 AM
Hi FordPerfect,

looks great, commit it!  :ThumbsUp432:  :)

I'll take a look at the particle stuff you mentioned as soon as I have some time left...

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Swatch on December 03, 2007, 10:35:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSv5383Dpvs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSv5383Dpvs)

Here's a good slow video of launch for those who want to watch it.

I'm looking at Ford's exhaust texture for the S-1C and I'm thinking about ways to add body and motion to our exhaust.  I'm going to post a thread on the Orbiter SDK forums to ask if anyone knows what Orbiter does most efficiently....  particle generation, mesh switching, or texture swapping. Post replies to this particular subject over there so that I can get a bit of conversation rolling on it.  Keep this thread focused on the S-II improvements for the moment.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: FordPrefect on December 03, 2007, 11:34:05 AM
Another incredible view of the mighty Saturn showing nicely the condensation cloud forming around the S2 stage while the it goes supersonic (starting at 1:03 into the video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtEjyow_5Z8

I hope we will be able to make our Saturn launch similar spectacular one day...  :roll:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Swatch on December 03, 2007, 11:58:46 AM
Another incredible view of the mighty Saturn showing nicely the condensation cloud forming around the S2 stage while the it goes supersonic
another good one here at about 3:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rXtG3vfAlA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rXtG3vfAlA)


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: FordPrefect on December 03, 2007, 12:21:01 PM
Swatch, great to see you getting deeply involved on this subject here and in the orbiter forums!  :cool7777:

Some interesting notes regarding the exhaust backflow:

http://yarchive.net/space/rocket/exhaust_backflow.html

I will post a few graphics showing my ideas how we could simulate the effects soon.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Coussini on December 03, 2007, 12:24:57 PM
Swatch, great to see you getting deeply involved on this subject here and in the orbiter forums!  :cool7777:

Some interesting notes regarding the exhaust backflow:

http://yarchive.net/space/rocket/exhaust_backflow.html

I will post a few graphics showing my ideas how we could simulate the effects soon.

I saw your video, and the pressure effect (sound barrier) are near the top of the SM and near S-IVB interstage section. That's probably interresting to have these animations too. I'm not a C++ programmer or an expert about modelism, but it's will be interresting to have the exaust continuation of the S-IC when it's separate from the rest. Probably, it's possible to you, to create an autonom S-IC, and when the separation append, the F1 engine continue the burn for some seconds like the video

Thanks !


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Swatch on December 03, 2007, 12:56:51 PM
Swatch, great to see you getting deeply involved on this subject here and in the orbiter forums!  :cool7777:


It's been on my mind for some time...but I haven't really had a lot of drive to work on it much.  Your work on the S-II helped me get interested again.  I have a few ideas also....so maybe we can compare notes.  I will say now though, that I've not done any particle effects, so I may need someones (cough*Tschachim*cough) :wink: help to put some in there so that I can then tweak them and learn what needs to be done to add them.

I'm in the middle of exam week right now, so I'm not doing much actual coding or testing, but I'm using the forums (here and Orbiter) to take breaks from studying and get some information about this stuff.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: movieman on December 03, 2007, 01:01:46 PM
I'm not a C++ programmer or an expert about modelism, but it's will be interresting to have the exaust continuation of the S-IC when it's separate from the rest. Probably, it's possible to you, to create an autonom S-IC, and when the separation append, the F1 engine continue the burn for some seconds like the video

I take it you haven't tried the Apollo 11 scenarios lately :).

The one problem we seem to have is that Orbiter bases the length of the exhaust on the thrust level, and the real thrust level decays very rapidly but the exhaust keeps coming out for some time. So we probably need to adjust the post-separation thrust level downwards to match both thrust and exhaust.

We also need to update all the other scenarios with appropriate separation times so the SIC still has some fuel in it after separation.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Coussini on December 03, 2007, 01:16:16 PM
I'm not a C++ programmer or an expert about modelism, but it's will be interresting to have the exaust continuation of the S-IC when it's separate from the rest. Probably, it's possible to you, to create an autonom S-IC, and when the separation append, the F1 engine continue the burn for some seconds like the video

I take it you haven't tried the Apollo 11 scenarios lately :).

The one problem we seem to have is that Orbiter bases the length of the exhaust on the thrust level, and the real thrust level decays very rapidly but the exhaust keeps coming out for some time. So we probably need to adjust the post-separation thrust level downwards to match both thrust and exhaust.

We also need to update all the other scenarios with appropriate separation times so the SIC still has some fuel in it after separation.

Fine  :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Tschachim on December 04, 2007, 06:31:17 AM
...I will say now though, that I've not done any particle effects, so I may need someones (cough*Tschachim*cough) :wink: help to put some in there so that I can then tweak them and learn what needs to be done to add them.

The programming part is rather simple, look for "AddParticleStream", "liftoffStream" and "liftoffStreamLevel" in ML.cpp for an example. Basically you define the stream, add it with AddParticleStream and control it by changing the level. At least for me the "designing part" is the hard one, I always have problems to define a stream so that it looks like I want to...

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Christophe on December 04, 2007, 03:18:10 PM
Hi Fordperfect, I've just discovered you're new textures. amanzing! Especially the motion. Terribly realistic in my mind. Great stuff!!   :ThumbsUp432: :Excited432:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: FordPrefect on December 19, 2007, 12:00:51 PM
Attached is the altered J2 exhaust texture. If someone wants to commit it, please do so. Thank you.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Tschachim on December 23, 2007, 01:47:40 PM
File is committed, thanks a lot and Merry Christmas!  :)


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Swatch on January 13, 2008, 03:19:20 AM
I just got done with BETA 1.0 of the new Saturn 1B exhast.  I still have quite a bit to mess with, but I want to see how you all think it looks (improvement, yes/no?) as well as comparing it to that seen in the videos.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: jc121081 on January 13, 2008, 09:11:56 AM
Just checked it out, and it looks great! I noticed that the extent of the exhaust now has a slightly blue tint to it now. Also, when viewed from below, the exhaust stream appears more direct and concentrated, and trails off quite nicely. In my opinion this more accurately reflects the actual exhaust seen from watching the Apollo 7 (4, 5 & 6) launch video, not to mention some really good FPS rates. Great job! :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Swatch on January 14, 2008, 12:02:27 AM
I know this is a bit odd...but could some of you post screenshots of the exhaust I committed last night?  I'd really like at least two screen caps from all of you.  In one, try and capture that which you like best about the new exhaust and in the other try and capture that which you think needs the most work.  I've been looking at them so much that I need some fresh eyes and suggestions.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on April 14, 2008, 05:05:50 PM
Another thing directed to Tschachim, is it possible to extend the lifetime and slowdown the velocity of the particles which are created during the SIVB/CSM separation so the linger around the SIVB stage during T/D for a longer time (maybe around 3 or 4 minutes)? There are videos and photos which show some substantial debris floating around the SIVB stage on the real Apollo missions.

Should be better now.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Swatch on June 11, 2008, 12:46:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=48DAFD993BCEA6B8

some great videos...


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: ryan on June 29, 2008, 10:06:15 PM
Is this topic still open? If so are we going to have the gimbaling of the F1 engines, it will would be nice to see.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: FordPrefect on July 03, 2008, 04:38:33 PM
Another thing directed to Tschachim, is it possible to extend the lifetime and slowdown the velocity of the particles which are created during the SIVB/CSM separation so the linger around the SIVB stage during T/D for a longer time (maybe around 3 or 4 minutes)? There are videos and photos which show some substantial debris floating around the SIVB stage on the real Apollo missions.

Should be better now.

Cheers
Tschachim

Thanks for taking care of it Tschachim, however, using the latest beta snapshot / modules pack I have the impression there's no difference to the previous lifetime of the particles. I may be wrong though, not sure. Can you give me a hint about the current lifetime of the particles after separation? More than 10 seconds?


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle Enhancement
Post by: Tschachim on July 04, 2008, 07:31:18 AM
More than 10 seconds?

Yes, 100s. Also, the particles now have silver and golden foil textures, so the difference should be rather obvious.  :?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: FordPrefect on July 04, 2008, 10:06:01 AM
 :Duh!39835: I forgot to update my modules pack.

It looks great Tschachim, very nice work!  :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: FordPrefect on July 10, 2008, 12:15:42 PM
I just realized I had forgotten to change the stencelling/lettering on the low-res Saturn textures! I'll do that next. Maybe as early as tomorrow. Shouldn't take too long to do. Also, I'll try to change the SIVB textures with the correct USA letters, for the early Apollo missions this weekend.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: FordPrefect on July 12, 2008, 07:59:23 AM
Attached to this post are the updated S1C and S2 low-res textures. Markus, could you commit them?

Not sure if anybody noticed it, I think I spotted a few bugs with our Saturn V meshes, despite some of them had been fixed in the past. I am pretty sure I have updated my meshes folder just recently. Test scenario was Virtual AGC/Training/Apollo 8 - Launch T-20min.scn

Old (fixed) and new bugs:
* The low-res Saturn V uses the SA-500F S1C interstage type mesh (the one with 8 instead of 4 ullage motors)
* The low-res Saturn V S1C stage ventral fins (A, B, C, D) textures are mirrored (shows correctly on the hi-res Saturn mesh)

New ones:
* The low-res Saturn V S1C stage dissappears at the moment of staging for about 1 second
* The BPC/Escape tower mesh looks improved1, but only on the low-res Saturn?

1 The structural skirt and launch escape motor nozzles had some normals errors, which have been fixed by Swatch


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V
Post by: Tschachim on July 12, 2008, 05:02:34 PM
Attached to this post are the updated S1C and S2 low-res textures. Markus, could you commit them?

Thanks a lot, files are committed!   :ThumbsUp432:

Not sure if anybody noticed it, I think I spotted a few bugs with our Saturn V meshes...

Thanks for pointing that out! I think fixing the Saturn V can wait until after the Apollo 7 release, but it would be great if you can check the Saturn 1B as well.  :)

* The low-res Saturn V S1C stage dissappears at the moment of staging for about 1 second

Works for me?  :?

* The BPC/Escape tower mesh looks improved1, but only on the low-res Saturn?

There's only one mesh, so it should look always the same?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: FordPrefect on August 09, 2008, 08:45:43 AM
New texture for the SIVB stage of the Saturn IB attached to this post. Tried DDS DXT1 first, which gave the new letters really ugly edges, looked a tad better with DXT5 - file size increased from 128 KB to 342 KB. Hope that's no issue.


*EDIT* Updated Saturn IB tank texture, using the correct font, attached to this post as well.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: Tschachim on August 09, 2008, 04:36:15 PM
Files are commited, thanks for your continuous efforts!  :)

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: FordPrefect on February 03, 2009, 05:14:45 PM
I was thinking about redoing the complete (texture) mapping of our whole Satun V stack model. This way, I could apply textures to all parts and surfaces which would, besides other advantages, also enable me to finally get the different textures for the various Apollo mission being shown AT ALL. I won't touch any of the models from the SLA panels and up, since Tschachim e.g. already textured the SLA panels very nicely.
Of course, I'll work with my own files on my HD, and when I'm happy with it, Tschachim or anyone can check them if they agree for submission. Does that sound like a plan? If yes, I would start with that not too long from now.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: Tschachim on February 03, 2009, 05:17:41 PM
Of course, I'll work with my own files on my HD, and when I'm happy with it, Tschachim or anyone can check them if they agree for submission. Does that sound like a plan? If yes, I would start with that not too long from now.

Go ahead!  :)


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: movieman on February 03, 2009, 08:17:19 PM
Sounds good.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: bluespace88 on February 03, 2009, 08:55:39 PM
same to me too


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: bluespace88 on May 02, 2009, 11:00:52 PM
was playing around with the S1C exhaust, and was wondering how everyone would feel about making the exhaust textures static instead of gimballing.  Its just a cosmetic change, so it won't interfere with the autopilot at all, just a visual preference.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: bluespace88 on May 03, 2009, 12:29:14 AM
also on the topic of the F-1 Exhaust, I played with it a bit to simulate the black plume coming from the engines as a result of the kerosene, and found a solution to the extreme angles problem that Ford had with his textures, which is use a black exhaust texture and using the streams, as seen in the first two pictures, to prevent the problem seen in the last picture.  Sorry for the crudity of the textures, but it helps give an idea. 

Also Ford, you mentioned that you had a problem of fitting the exhaust in the F-1 engine bell, but thats easily fixable with the code.


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: NoName on May 10, 2009, 02:12:56 PM
The exhaust looks very nice. But I think the black part is a bit too long: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Skylab_launch_on_Saturn_V.jpg

Reducing it to about 1/3 of the current length would let it look like the real exhaust I think.

I recently read somewhere across the web that NASA used a special filter for their cameras which let the exhaust look dark, because of analysis reasons. I don't know about the truth content of that allegation yet, and I can't imagine that this is right. But I'll check it. Maybe somebody else here already is able to offer facts...


Title: Re: Launch Vehicle (Visual) Enhancement - Saturn V and Saturn IB
Post by: bluespace88 on May 12, 2009, 04:58:53 PM
Well, its only black because I don't have any photoshop skills  :D

And yeah, I'll move it up some.  Also, a few things.  Just visited KSC today, and had some pictures of the tanks on each stage, which I'll upload later when I have time (still on vacation  :)).  I don't know if there were any differences between these and the other Saturn V's, but I'm sure they're similar.  The S1C has a yellow tank, the SII has a orange-brownish tank (probably like ours), and the SIVB has a silver tank.  The rear end of the service module is also silver.  Again, I don't know if the other rockets were the same or not, and I will upload some pictures later (the later ones being taken by the phone because the camera's battery died  :awwcrap4253:)