Meadville Space Center

Project Apollo - NASSP => Project Apollo - NASSP News & Discussion => Topic started by: Tschachim on May 02, 2007, 04:19:01 PM



Title: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on May 02, 2007, 04:19:01 PM
Hi Apollo fans,

I was curious if it's possible to land the LM on the Moon and return to the Earth with the latest Beta 20070429. The LM internal systems are still in an early stage of development, so I don't expect to use the LM realistically or historically correct, just land and fly back "the Orbiter way". Since it looks like I'm not the only one interested in that I decided to post a kind of "journey diary". :)

I decided to use the Quickstart Mode because I don't want to have much work in the CSM, for the LM there's not much difference to the Standard Mode anyway. Also I used Apollo 14 because of the nicer landing site compared to the flat Apollo 11 site. So at first I fixed the "Scenarios\Project Apollo - NASSP\Quickstart Missions\Apollo 14\Apollo 14 - Launch" scenario, which is already committed to CVS, and here we go:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_OnPad.jpg)

During prelaunch and launch I did nothing except turning on time acceleration and the Saturn V put me in a nice Earth Parking Orbit of 185.4 x 183.2 km as intended. I continued with the TLI burn using IMFD 4.2.1 (not 4.6) as explained in the wiki (http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/TLI_checklist_%28Quickstart%29). This was my IMFD screen directly after burn calculation, the use of a 2nd IMFD in map mode is optional, but very informative (and accurate!)

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_TLI.jpg)

I did the burn using the IMFD autoburn feature and the burn was just perfect, the IMFD map mode reported after the burn that I'll directly crash into the center of the Moon. That's not something I actually want to do :wink:, but I'll correct that later.

LV seperation, transposition, docking and LM extraction was routine, again I did it as explained in the wiki (http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Transposition_and_Docking_checklist_%28Quickstart%29). And here's the CSM/LM stack on the way to the Moon:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_LMExtraction.jpg)

Up to now the mission wasn't very exciting, everything was working fine as documented and expected and Trans Lunar Coast was even more boring :wink:, I did just nothing, not even PTC, and used time acceleration 1000x until the automatic "it's time for correction" call happend at about T+60h.

The IMFD map mode still showed a direct Moon impact and now with the first Mid Course Correction (MCC) I really should fix that. Since I left the "well documented mission phases" I had some more work to do. I used the IMFD Base Approach program with the Moon as reference, "Fra Mauro-Base" as target (you need to type that actually), altitude 110k, approach for "Orbit-Insert" and a time to ejection of 300s (to have enough time before the burn) which resulted in the following screen, the use of a 2nd IMFD in map mode is optional again:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_MCC.jpg)

Two things are important to do before activating the IMFD autoburn feature:

- Switch both SIG COND/DRIVER BIAS POWER switches on panel 7 (left) to OFF, otherwise the RJ/EC will "overwrite" IMFDs attitude commands.
- Orient the CSM/LM stack manually using the IMFD Burn Vector (BV) screen, IMFD has problems orienting the bulky stack properly.

After that's IMFD did the burn correctly. Approaching further to the Moon I noticed that the Base Approach program showed a decreasing periapsis altitude (and so an increasing burn time), the IMFD map showed a negative (but stable) periapsis altitude. So I did my 2nd (and last) MCC burn more smart. :wink: I waited until I was inside the lunar SOI at about T+75h and used the same Base Approach program configuration as before, but adjusted my altitude until I had an periapsis altitude of 110 km on the IMFD map (Plan button, blue trajectory). I ended up with an altitude of about 200 km in the Base Approach program. This worked great for the map mode and in the reality.

Next step is LOI, which is rather simple since here LazyD's "autopilot coverage" begins. There are a couple of Simple AGC (http://nassp.sf.net/wiki/Simple_AGC) programs both for the CSM and the LM explained in the LMDoc.txt file in your "Doc\Project Apollo - NASSP" folder. LOI is program P16, which I started about an hour before periapsis:

SIG COND/DRIVER BIAS POWER - AC1, AC2 again
SC CONT - CMC
dV THRUST A - NORMAL
DSKY: V37E 16E

The DSKY shows:
   R1=time to ignition(before ignition)/time to cutoff(after ignition)
   R2=altitude xxx.x km
   R3=offplane distance xxx.x km

Time acceleration can be used until the burn starts. Everything runs automatically, I just did nothing (again) and watched the burn from outside:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_LOIBurn.jpg)

The burn took place at about T+80h, I ended up with a quite low orbit, 133 x 49 km, but I decided that this is fine for now (the Moon has a spherical gravity field in Orbiter, no MASCONs). I had 30% SPS propellants left, we'll see if I come back with that...

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_LOI.jpg)

So far, so good. I didn't expect any major problems up to now with the CSM only, of course. I now changed to the LM and did the following LM activation procedure:

In the LM:

DESCENT POWER, HI VOLTAGE 4 x ON (talkback gray) on panel 14 (<CTRL><RIGHT> twice from center panel)
MAIN SOV, SYS A/B 2 x OPEN (talkback gray) on panel 2 (center panel)
ENGINE ARM - DES on panel 1
EXPLOSIVE DEVICES, MASTER ARM - ON on panel 8 (<CTRL><LEFT> twice from center panel)
EXPLOSIVE DEVICES, LDG GEAR DEPLOY - FIRE (talkback gray)
DSKY: PRO, V37E 00E

That's all, the LM should be up and running (at least in an "Orbiter sense"). It doesn't matter if you're docked or not, so you can deploy the landing gear after undocking, too. I decided to do an "Apollo 11 style" landing (undocked LM does the DOI burn), because I want to test the LM. So next step was undocking:

Back in the CSM:
DOCKING PROBE - unguard, EXTD/REL

Now I wondered how the LM will perform in it's first burn, the Descent Orbit Insertion (DOI).
In the LM again, enter in the DSKY:

V37E 17E
V16E (to show the countdown)

The DSKY shows:
   R1=Number of passes BEFORE landing
   R2=MM SS minutes and seconds to plane change burn, or seconds if more than -99 minutes
   R3=Burn dv m/s MM.M

I used time acceleration until be burn began and it really worked fine, periapsis altitude 15 km:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_DOI.jpg)

Next I did the landing site alignment burn, which is only necessary if our offplane distance is greater than 24 km, but I wanted to check that anyway:

V37E 18E
V16E (to show the countdown)

The DSKY shows:
   R1=Number of passes
   R2=MM SS minutes and seconds to plane change burn, or seconds if more than -99 minutes
   R3=Burn dv m/s MM.M

In my case it was a really short burn, I don't know if it was really necessary. And now the really interesting part, the landing. About 1000km before the landing site I entered

V37E 63E

Well, and then I did what I have done most of the time: Nothing! :wink:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_LMLanding.jpg)

...and the LM landed just perfect! The landing and lunar EVA is also explained in the wiki (http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/LM_landing_checklist_%28Quickstart%29), so no need to talk about LDP etc. here, but of course I visited Cone Crater with the rover, which Big Al unfortunately didn't had in the real Apollo 14 mission... :)

Looks like the LM works very well, I can provide some intermediate scenarios if wanted, but altogether it wasn't that big deal thanks to LazyD's great autopilots and Jarmo's IMFD, next we'll see if I come back to Earth, too.

To be continued...

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Christophe on May 02, 2007, 06:12:09 PM
Woaahhh!
I don't know how the hell you find the time to do all this for the project! :roll:
It's great.
Congratulations !  :ThumbsUp432:

Hope we could do that with the vAGc, the "right way" very soon...


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: slaintemaith on May 09, 2007, 12:43:07 PM
Hrm.  Couldn't have been with the latest version.  When I ran that scenario the rocket wasn't aligned properly on the pad.  =P

I did, however, follow the footsteps of your mission and am happy to say it works just as described.  =)
And have I mentioned that I -really- like the LEM progams?  Can't wait until everything can be done with the AGCs in the CSM/LM.

Keep up the inspiring work, gentlemen!


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on May 09, 2007, 02:25:17 PM
When I ran that scenario the rocket wasn't aligned properly on the pad.

You need to do a "CVS Update" of your scenario folder.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Odyssey on May 10, 2007, 05:58:51 AM
Tschachim.

Thats great work, well done. I have two questions.

1. Can all that you have explained be achieved using the standard mode?

2. If you use Transx for TLI can you still use the DSKY actions you described when doing the DOI and landing. For example, can I just target the base in the Map MFD and it will still work?

Thanks

Odyssey  :wink:


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on May 10, 2007, 06:32:45 AM
1. Can all that you have explained be achieved using the standard mode?

Yes, it's a lot of more work in the CSM, but not much difference in the LM (you need to press PRO a couple of times during a few Simple AGC programs, see LMDoc.txt).

2. If you use Transx for TLI can you still use the DSKY actions you described when doing the DOI and landing.

Yes, for DOI and PDI it's important where you are, not how you managed it to get there.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Odyssey on May 10, 2007, 05:39:51 PM
Excellent. I'll give it a try and now doubt be asking yet more questions along the way  :ashamed45523:

With regards to the LEVA, is it possible to this in standard mode? I know that with quickstart mode you can just press 'E' but do I have to do anything more in standard mode?

Thanks

Odyssey :wink:


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on May 11, 2007, 04:43:24 AM
With regards to the LEVA, is it possible to this in standard mode? I know that with quickstart mode you can just press 'E' but do I have to do anything more in standard mode?

The 'E' key is working in Quickstart mode only, no lunar EVA in Standard mode currently, sorry. We'll do that later, of course, but since there's a lot of work to do in the LM it will take some time.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Odyssey on May 11, 2007, 01:58:07 PM
That's a shame. When do you expect the LEVA ability will be implemented?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: slaintemaith on May 11, 2007, 06:03:37 PM
Any luck with getting home?  I'm finding the LM ascent programs to be ....well....  not as happy as the descent programs.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on June 13, 2007, 03:07:12 PM
Hi Apollo fans,

after a loooong stay on the Moon it's time to return to Earth. Unfortunately this is not possible with the beta release used for the outward journey, so you need to update to the latest Beta 20070607 as explained here (http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=1192.0). There's no scenario incompatibility, so you can continue with a saved scenario. I personally started again from Earth, I had only 30% SPS fuel left, which was a little bit too less to return to the Earth properly, I needed to use the RCS for the TEC MCCs. It turned out that the LM was a little bit too heavy, additionally my TLC MCCs weren't perfect.

Launch, TLI and Transposition & Docking was the same. But this time I did only one MCC, again I waited for the automatic "it's time for correction" call happening at about T+60h. I again used the IMFD 4.6 BaseApproach program with the Moon as reference, "Fra Mauro-Base" as target (you need to type that actually), altitude 115k, "retrograde", approach for "Orbit-Insert" and a time to ejection of 600s (to have enough time before the burn). Then I used the IMFD map in plan mode to check the predicted trajectory and saw that my PeA (periapsis altitude) was much too low. So I increased the altitude in the BaseApproach program so that the map program (which is much more precise than any other prediction tool, including TransX, Transfer etc.) predicts a PeA of 115k (the screenshot shows 109.71k, but 115k would be better). So I needed just one quite small MCC (still bigger than the real ones):

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_2_MCC.jpg)

The BaseApproach screen is already in burn vector (BV) mode, sorry. Perhaps I'll provide more comprehensive Quickstart Mode checklists similar to the TLI checklist for that in the wiki later.

Also the Simple AGC program P16 for the LOI burns is a little bit different now. Start P16 the same way as before, but now the first LOI burn (LOI1) stops earlier, so if your PeA was about 115 km before LOI1, your resulting orbit will be about 115 x 315 km. Apollo 11 and 12 then did a LOI2 burn to achieve a roughly circular orbit. To do that just execute P16 again at about 20min before next periapsis, your resulting orbit will be about 110 x 120 km. After LOI2 I had 35.6% SPS fuel left, which is fine for return to Earth. Apollo 14 and later didn't do a LOI2 burn but the DOI burn directly with the complete CSM/LM stack. That should be possible by using P17 in the CSM, but I didn't try that.

LM activation, undocking and landing was the same, so nothing noteworthy here. After landing I suggest to use the rover to visit Cone crater, thanks to Redburne the rover has great wheel and gear animations now:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_2_LRV.jpg)

Now it's really time to return back to the Earth. Make sure that the LEVA astronaut is back in the LM again (the rover is left behind on the Moon) and switch to the LM cockpit. Open OrbitMFD or MapMFD, select the CSM as target and wait until the CSM is about 1/4 orbit before passing over the landing site (i.e. you in the LM). Then do the following:

ENG ARM - ASC (panel 1)
Key in DSKY: V37E 12E

DSKY's R1 shows countdown to launch, you can use time acceleration up to about 1 min before launch, then switch back to 1x and, well, just do nothing. The LM ascent stage will separate, launch and put you in into an elliptical lunar orbit about 18 X 82 km, and close to coplanar with the CSM. After that the Simple AGC runs P34, the Transfer Phase Initiation (TPI) program. Please note that Apollo 11 and 12 used the coelliptic rendezvous procedure, which involves P32 and P33 before that, but I didn't try that. P34 shows a countdown to ignition:

R1: xx hours
R2: xx minutes
R3: xx.xx seconds

Again you can use time acceleration until about 2 min before the burn. P34 starts P42 automatically, which does the burn using the ascent engine. After that the Simple AGC runs P35, the Transfer Phase Midcourse (TPM) program. Again a countdown is displayed, this time the burn is executed by P41 using the RCS. After that P35 is executed again for the 2nd TPM burn, same procedure as usual.

At last the Simple AGC switches to P36, a fictitious program doing the final braking and station keeping. In reality this was done by the astronauts manually, and you can do it manually, too. Terminate P36 by keying V37E 00E, after that you can control the LM using Orbiter's rotational and linear RCS modes. But be careful with the linear RCS, the LM ascent stage uses the real LM thruster positions, which are the same as the descent stage (obviously) and aren't aligned with the center of gravity, so a lot of torque is produced and you need to compensate that.

P36 does all that automatically, I just did nothing during the complete ascent and rendezvous (as usual :)). The DSKY shows

R1: Range x.xx km
R2: Rate x.x m/s
R3: Phase x.xx deg

During P36 I don't recommend time acceleration (or only in the beginning and 10x max.) and after a couple of minutes the LM will come to a stop with windows facing the CSM at a distance of 10 m. When velocities are damped, which again will take some time, but now time acceleration up to 10x is OK, the LM will pitch forward to present the docking port to the CSM. Change to the CSM and rotate it to "docking attitude". Then change to LM again and key V37E 00E. Finally change to CSM, give some linear forward RCS thrust and the CSM will capture and hard dock automatically, the trip to the lunar surface is finished.

Now it's time to return to the Earth with the CSM, so at first we need to get rid of the LM ascent stage:

CSM/LM FINAL SEP 1 (or 2) - unguard, up

For the trip home we'll do one big burn to leave lunar orbit, the TEI (Trans Earth Injection) burn, then do a couple of MCCs during Trans Earth Coast (TEC) and finally enter Earth's atmosphere for braking and landing. We won't enter Earth orbit, there's no "EOI" burn, so already the TEI burn aims at the landing (splashdown) point (or better the entry interface, a virtual point at which entry begins). Basically I did that using IMFD 4.6 as explained here (http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=119.0) or here (http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=1157.0) using the following parameters:

Lon: -172W
Lat: -27S
Alt: 121.95k
ReA: 6.5
Ant: 21

Lon/Lat define the landing site, I hope I found the correct coordinates for Apollo 14. Again I used the IMFD map to optimize the burn in order to save fuel, which leads to the usage of 3 MFDs simultaneously, use the MFDs on the G&N panel below panel 122 for that.

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_2_TEI.jpg)

This time I aimed for a PeA of 35k (this will be close to the real PeA when you are near enough to the Earth so that BaseApproach works precisely) and changed BaseApproach's Alt from 121.95k to 2.758 M by playing with this value to achieve that. Please note that Ant is wrong in this screenshot, it should be 21.

I had the problem that the map was jumping between this display and "invalid burn data", I don't know how to avoid that, so help is very much appreciated. :)

I did the burn using IMFDs auto burn feature, but before that the RJ/EC needs to be disabled again:

SIG COND/DRIVER BIAS POWER 1/2 - OFF (panel 7)

I did the MCCs as explained here here (http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=119.0) and again used the map for "altitude correction", still aiming at a PeA of 35k. In order to hit the entry interface (a virtual point in 121.95 k altitude, 21 before the landing point, if I understand IMFD correctly), not only the PeA but also the position of the periapsis (and so of the entry interface) is important. Unfortunately I'm not able to calculate that from the map data, so I did more MCC burns, the first burn when I entered Earth's SOI and then 2 or 3 more burns, the last one only a couple of hours before arrival. During the first burns you'll notice that the predicted PeA in the map is changing quite rapidly, so you need to guess an altitude so that PeA is about 35k when the burn starts. During the last burn it shouldn't be necessary to change the altitude from 121.95k, PeA should be about 35k anyway and the entry interface position will be fine after that burn, too.

About half an hour before periapsis (PeT) I began with the entry procedure, thanks Chode the Simple AGC does all the work:

Key V37E 61E

Flashing V06N61
         XXX.XX   Impact Latitude
         XXX.XX   Impact Longitude
          +/-1      RollCode

Latitude and longitude are calculated based on a nominal reentry down-range (historical), and zero cross-range and should be close (i.e about +/- 1) to the target landing site, -27S  and -172W. Next I changed the predicted values to the target values:

V21E
-02700E
V22E
-17200
PRO
PRO

Flashing V06N60
         XXX.XX     Predicted maximum G force
         XXXXX m/s  Predicted velocity at entry interface
         XXX.XX     Entry angle

Enter PRO:

Flashing V16N63
         XXXX.X     predicted range from 0.05G to splash
         XXXXX m/s  predicted Velocity at 0.05G
         XX  XX     min  sec   until 0.05G

I waited until R3 is at about 10 min, then PRO, program advances to P62

Flashing V50N25
         00041      Checklist Code (perform CM/SM separation)
      
I did what the AGC told me:

AUTO RCS SELECT (16) - MNA or MNB (panel 8 )
SIG COND/DRIVER BIAS POWER 1/2 - AC1/2 (panel 7)
S/C CONT - CMC (check) (panel 1)
ELS LOGIC - unguard, up
CM RCS PRPLNT 1/2 - up, talkbacks gray (panel 2)
C/W CSM - CM
MAIN BUS TIE (2) - up (panel 5)

... and ...

CM/SM SEP 1 or 2 - unguard, up

... and the CM separates from the SM. After that the AGC controls the CM during entry, Chode explains that here (http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=947.msg9865#msg9865) like this: 

Enter PRO:

Flashing V06N61
         XXX.XX   Impact Latitude
         XXX.XX   Impact Longitude
          +/-1    RollCode

Last chance to change the landing point (V21-25).

Enter PRO:

P63 takes over, display shows:

Flashing V16N64N
         XXX.XX     Drag Acceleration
         XXXXX m/s  Inertial velocity
         XXXX.X km  Range to splash

Attitude hold is engaged to orient correctly for entry interface. When Drag acceleration reaches 0.05G, program automatically advances to P64.

P64 (nominal)

If entering from Earth orbit (with entry angle around 2 to 3 degrees), should proceed to program 67.

If entering from trans-lunar orbit (with entry angle around 6 to 7 degrees), should stay in P64, attempting a constant drag level until sufficient energy is lost, then the AGC advances to P67.

P67:

Flashing V16N66
         XXX.XX deg   Commanded Bank Angle
         XXXX.X km    Downrange Error
         XXXX.X km    Crossrange Error

When your velocity drops low enough, P67 shuts off the control jets and displays:

Flashing V16N67
         XXXX.X km    Range to target splash
         XXX.XX deg   Present Latitude
         XXX.XX deg   Present Longitude
      
At about 7.5 km altitude the apex cover (forward heat shield) is jettisoned automatically and the drogue chute is deployed, at about 3.2 km altitude the main chutes are deployed. At 0 km altitude splashdown happens (what a surprise :wink: ), the main chutes are released automatically. Press "J" after landing to open the hatch and "J" again to enter the raft.
 
(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_2_Recovery.jpg)

I had a quite smooth entry with about 8g maximum, range to target landing point was 7.7 km, I assume this is very well within the reach of the recovery forces.

Well, that's all, this time much more bugfixes and changes were necessary to complete the mission, so it wasn't that relaxing than the journey to the Moon, but I hope it's now possible again to fly complete Moon landing missions, not really historically correct, especially in the LM, but at least the "Orbiter way". Comments and suggestions are welcome as usual. :) 

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: bluespace88 on June 13, 2007, 04:02:31 PM
Awesome tutorial  :ThumbsUp432:

Just a question.  Would IMFD 4.2.1 still work in this case, because I recall 4.6 having autoburn problems.

Looking forward to coming home, which I haven't done in a while since NASSP 5.0


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on June 13, 2007, 04:39:23 PM
IMFD 4.2.1 is also working except for the "3 MFD stunt" for TEI, 4.2.1 supports only 2 MFDs, but you can still use Orbit-Eject together with BaseApproach, of course. But I only had Autoburn problems during TLI and I'm not sure if I did something wrong, I need to recheck that sometime, so I suggest 4.6 at least after TLI.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: michaelrad55 on June 15, 2007, 05:10:31 PM
I have two questions.  How much propellant do you suggest I have left for the return ride home?  I have about 30% left.  I'm probably going to go back before the first MCC call-up and try optimizing better now that I know i can get to the moon.  Second, how do I get on the lunar rover?  Thanks


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on June 15, 2007, 05:25:41 PM
30% is tight, 35% should be fine. Press V to spawn the rover while the astronaut has the focus (Quickstart Mode only): http://nassp.sf.net/wiki/LM_landing_checklist_%28Quickstart%29

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Christophe on June 17, 2007, 04:45:31 AM
Just one word/suggestion about fuel management while orbiting the moon.
Astronauts in the reality defined some specific quantities left that were required at each phase of the mission. That was Q1, Q2, Q3... and so on.
What you can do, for example right after LOI is to compute as soon as possible a solution for TEI. That will give you a required delta V (or fuel quantity) you record and keep for later. Add the necessary quantity for MCC 5,6,7 (you can for example consider that it woyuld be the same than for the previous MCC's) and add a little supplementary fuel for unexpected thing, let say something like 2 or 3 percent.
All this defines a minimum quantity that you can call Q1 for example, and that you MUST keep in the tanks.
After that by substracting this Q1 from the quantity you have currently, that gives you an available quantity (Q2 for example) and delta V's for the moon maneuvers, like LOI2, circularization, plane adjustments, and so on...
Don't forget that the TEI solution may be rather different from an orbit to another, so a good solution to avoid bad surprises is to recompute an eventual TEI solution each time you changed your orbit and redo the Q computation to update your available fuel.
That's the way the pilots do in flight as well as the astronauts.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on June 17, 2007, 09:54:45 AM
... and some historic fuel/oxidizer numbers from Apollo 11:
After LOI 1: 38.8% fuel / 39.0% oxidizer
After LOI 2: 36.2% fuel / 36.4% oxidizer


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Coussini on June 17, 2007, 01:26:51 PM
Hello Tschachim and everybody. Actualy, i'll try to fix my french documentation according to new stuff of NASSP 7.0.

I'll try to do the same mission of Tschachim (Apollo 14). It's loking good. I'll try also to do the TLI using the DSKY and IMFD 4.6.

I'll give you my result.

P.S: I did an airport for orbiter... so now... i have a time to continue with NASSP. Thanks


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: slaintemaith on June 17, 2007, 04:21:57 PM
Hrm...  I'm not getting happy results with rendezvous.    Is there a particular orbit the CM is supposed to be in?  I'm getting to within 1.20km, and then everything goes to hell.  The ascent stage starts firing RCS in contradictory directions, and ultimately puts me in an uncontrollable spin--until I run out of RCS fuel.  I'm not using extreme time accel.  10x up to just before the 2:00 mark...which is when it seems to want to make attitude changes for burns.

Since I crashed on the one I started from launch (which had the CM in a nice, tight, circular, stable orbit) I started using the Pre-saved Apollo 14 mission with the LM on the ground.  In this instance, the CM is at 88.32k x 101.2k.  I do the startup procedure (since the LM's landed, but all the systems are off (go figure!) and then ascent procedures as described above. 

Any Thoughts?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on June 18, 2007, 05:52:16 AM
Do you mean the "Project Apollo - NASSP\Quickstart Missions\Apollo 14\Apollo 14 - LM after touchdown" scenario? The 2nd RCS tank in the LM was empty, I fixed that, if you do a CVS Update it should work again. But I'm not sure if the CSM is working properly in this scenario...

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: slaintemaith on June 18, 2007, 09:24:37 AM
Yup--that's the scenario I used.
*Laughs*  Empty!  Did you check the oil too?  =)
Thanks for the quick-fix.  I'll have a go at it now.  But -should- the CSM be in a particular orbit around the moon?  I'm not sure how much leeway the LM's ascent autopilot has with regards to Apd, PeD, and Inc.  (Although Inc doesn't seem to be a problem)

As an aside, you might want to power up the LM in descent configuration in that scenario as well. 


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on June 18, 2007, 09:54:23 AM
But -should- the CSM be in a particular orbit around the moon? 

I suppose yes. An 100 x 100 km orbit over the landing site is fine, the 100 x 80 km orbit is this scenario is fine, too. But I don't know the limits, only LazyD knows (the author of the autopilot). I suppose the offplane limit is quite small because of fuel and the ApA/PeA limits are rather big, but I never tried a let say 20 x 200 km orbit, sorry.

As an aside, you might want to power up the LM in descent configuration in that scenario as well. 

Yes, we'll fix that scenario sooner or later...

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: slaintemaith on June 18, 2007, 10:57:49 AM
Reporting success.  Seems fuel in the second tank -is- important.  =)   Now I gotta brace myself for TEI.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: slaintemaith on June 21, 2007, 10:08:07 AM
Confirmed!  Apart from some pesky cryo pressure problems at high accel, I've also made this flight from start to finish without modifying/restarting/editing the sim.

Good stuff!  Thanks for the guide, Tschu, (I think you're all we have until the checklists and wiki are done!) and thanks for everyone slaving away on this project.  It's the very best Orbiter has to offer.

(Although I wonder if you can stea---err...ask for AMSO's 3D models...Hrm...)



Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on June 22, 2007, 09:17:01 AM
(Although I wonder if you can stea---err...ask for AMSO's 3D models...Hrm...)

I did that already (asking, not stealing, of course), but no answer from Alain yet. We'll see, there are various possibilities how to support the AMSO meshes, perhaps we'll end up with that you need to install AMSO and can configure the use of the AMSO meshes in the config options on the Orbiter's Extras tab (like hi res/low res currently).

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Coussini on June 25, 2007, 05:36:26 PM
There's some cowboy at 25 seconds at the MISSION TIMER. Press ABORT... and check the show of the astronauts. That's important for the astronauts to have a complete suit, with oxygen for that  :cool7777:

(http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8537/abortfailwa7.jpg)

That very cool, but it's probably not you want.... hi hi hi.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: dseagrav on June 25, 2007, 08:44:53 PM
I fixed that bug in my last commit.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Coussini on June 25, 2007, 09:32:21 PM
Thanks. I'll waiting for the next beta module.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: michaelrad55 on July 03, 2007, 04:28:32 PM
I'm trying to set up the burn for the TEI.  Using IMFD 4.6, I have the two MFD's in shared mode.  My base approach MFD looks exactly like you have it, but in my orbit-eject MFD it's saying no data available from baseapproach.  Am I missing a step here?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on July 10, 2007, 09:22:49 AM
Hm, I'm not sure, perhaps you need to retry with a different sharing configuration, for example MFD 0 shares MFD 1 instead of MFD 1 shares MFD 0. And I assume you mean the base approach mode of IMFD, not Base Approach MFD?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Eddie on September 12, 2007, 10:34:36 PM
Tschachim, are you finding the newest version of IMFD more helpful with your flights?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Fearless on September 12, 2007, 11:43:34 PM
Hmm, shall try sharing the other way.  I had MFD0 shared with MFD1 and had a messed up Interplanetary BaseApproach Map setup indicating PeA at -845.73k after doing a MCC using BaseApproach on MFD0 at Retrograde for Orbit Insertion with Altitude set at 115k  :gloomy3353:

I can't work out why that happened after following instructions to the letter. I'm using IMFD v5.0 with Apollo 14 QuickStart so maybe there's a step I missed because of the extras available in v5.0.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on September 13, 2007, 04:56:34 AM
Tschachim, are you finding the newest version of IMFD more helpful with your flights?

I only tried TLI yet, which is working better a lot in IMFD5, so I'm quite sure I will find IMFD5 better for all manoevers.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Coussini on September 13, 2007, 09:00:25 AM
Tschachim, are you finding the newest version of IMFD more helpful with your flights?

I only tried TLI yet, which is working better a lot in IMFD5, so I'm quite sure I will find IMFD5 better for all manoevers.

Cheers
Tschachim

I did many procedure using IMFD 5.0 and it is accurate. You must take your time to ajust very precisely your TLI, and after it's very cheap in fuel for the MCC ;)

CSM status (Apollo 14):
After LOI / 43% fuel less (Manualy using the Orbit-Insert Target)
After DOI / 37.9% fuel less (P17)
(LM PDI - P36)
Recirculating / 37.2% fuel less (P19)
Correction of the Plan / 34.4% fuel less (site aligment manually, P18 not working properly)

34.4% fuel before the TEI.... that's fine

;)





Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Eddie on September 13, 2007, 01:08:11 PM
Thanks for the replies on IMFD5, good to know that people like you, who really understand all of this, can relate to us on how its working in conjunction with this project! :)


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Fearless on September 13, 2007, 05:46:25 PM
Hmm, shall try sharing the other way.  I had MFD0 shared with MFD1 and had a messed up Interplanetary BaseApproach Map setup indicating PeA at -845.73k after doing a MCC using BaseApproach on MFD0 at Retrograde for Orbit Insertion with Altitude set at 115k  :gloomy3353:

I can't work out why that happened after following instructions to the letter. I'm using IMFD v5.0 with Apollo 14 QuickStart so maybe there's a step I missed because of the extras available in v5.0.

All worked out when I decided to do the MCC  :Duh!39835: Landed perfectly. Apollo 14 quickstart.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Coussini on September 13, 2007, 08:52:16 PM
I finish this Apollo 14 scenario....

After my TEI i have 9.4% fuel less

When i sep the CM and the SM it is 6% fuel less....

I was late 4 minutes later....  when i splashdown (the historic value is 216:01:58 and i have 216:04:37).... not bad for me ;)

So... my constatation of IMFD 5.0.... take care about the GET value. If you like to do a similar mission... you can do it....


 :yes77:


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Fearless on September 13, 2007, 10:43:12 PM
I finish this Apollo 14 scenario....

After my TEI i have 9.4% fuel less

When i sep the CM and the SM it is 6% fuel less....

I was late 4 minutes later....  when i splashdown (the historic value is 216:01:58 and i have 216:04:37).... not bad for me ;)

So... my constatation of IMFD 5.0.... take care about the GET value. If you like to do a similar mission... you can do it....


 :yes77:

Hey Coussini.  Are you using the QuickStart Scenario or the more advanced?  I'm currently on the Lunar Surface taking a look around.  All I need is a carry bag so I can pick up some rock samples and bring them back with me  :yes77:

Anyway, I have 37.4% fuel left in the CSM so hopefully enough to get back to Earth  :)


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Coussini on September 14, 2007, 08:35:51 AM

Hey Coussini.  Are you using the QuickStart Scenario or the more advanced?  I'm currently on the Lunar Surface taking a look around.  All I need is a carry bag so I can pick up some rock samples and bring them back with me  :yes77:

Anyway, I have 37.4% fuel left in the CSM so hopefully enough to get back to Earth  :)

Did you use the P17 program to do the DOI using the SPS (CSM) ? I'm curious about your result.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Fearless on September 14, 2007, 05:50:31 PM
Did you use the P17 program to do the DOI using the SPS (CSM) ? I'm curious about your result.

Actually it is the CSM that has 37.4% left.  Not sure how much was left on the LM after P17 but had enough when I did the ascent stage.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Sumi on November 08, 2007, 07:01:13 PM
Hello! I'm really new to orbiter and to Apollo, but i've tried to complete the tutorials.. with more or less success. My problem is with the newest nassp, because when i'm heading back to earth, and i program the AGC the V37E 61E, OPR ERR starts flashing, and that's it, I can't enter the atmosphere... what am I missing? please help me!


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on November 08, 2007, 07:12:26 PM
Can you post/attach a Quicksave scenario shorty before that happens (click on "Additional Options" on the reply screen to attach a file)?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Sumi on November 08, 2007, 08:28:03 PM
Yes, sure, but only tomorrow, because I ran out of fuel during the TEI:D lol, I told you, I'm newbie:(
but anyway, whenever I try to enter the V37N61 in the computer, (on the launchpad for example), I get this flashing opr error thing:(

should i switch on  "nonspherical gravity sources" and "gravity-gradient torque" in orbiter parameters?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on November 09, 2007, 06:31:10 AM
Whenever I try to enter the V37N61 in the computer, (on the launchpad for example), I get this flashing opr error thing:(

 :shock:  P61 is used after CM/SM separation to control the entry as explained on the first page of this thread, surely it's not working on the launch pad.

should i switch on  "nonspherical gravity sources" and "gravity-gradient torque" in orbiter parameters?

I think that doesn't really matter for what you're trying to do in Quickstart Mode (but nonspherical gravity sources are mandatory in Virtual AGC mode).

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Sumi on November 09, 2007, 11:57:36 AM
you've wrote one the fist page, that you have to run the program before the separation :?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on November 09, 2007, 12:06:19 PM
Sorry, yes, shortly before separation, but not on the pad. You probably got the OPR ERR because your trajectory doesn't hit the entry interface properly, this is why I like to have a scenario for debugging.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Sumi on November 10, 2007, 10:38:53 AM
Finally I've made it to the moon, with 37% fuel remaning.. but: nother problem (i'm still 'round the moon)..

Actually I'm doing the A11 Mission, so Here is the landing to Tranquillity-Base:

Apollo 11 Quickstart - Launch 0013 0005.scn attached,

And The problem is, that when I wan't to go back to the CM, I just can't.. I type V37N12, it does the lift off, goes through prog 32,33, then 34 shows a countdown of: r1= 000.. r2=000. r3=000.. so all of the displays are zeros. And it never starts to count, so i can never dock again.
However i've attached one more quicksave, which is before program 32.. (i've tried to type v37n34 at this point, but didn't work as well). what am i doing wrong?

this would be essential, cause without this i don't want to do the trans earth procedure...

thanks.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Sumi on November 10, 2007, 11:24:40 AM
I don't really understand, what is going on.. i've loaded it up for the 100000. time, and now P34 is a go... is there somekind of problem with saving/loading? or what is this anomaly?

ok, it loads up, but it isn't working good.. i'm sad...


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on November 10, 2007, 01:53:04 PM
Yes, unfortunately there are a couple of bugs in the LM rendezvous autopilot in the latest beta, especially in saving/loading. I fixed them already in the code (and committed the fixes to CVS, see here: http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=1323.0), but there are no new beta modules yet, looks like I really should speed up...

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: lassombra on November 13, 2007, 07:56:19 AM
I released the beta modules pack, it's on sourceforge and the wiki. http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/nassp/ProjectApollo_Beta_20071112.zip?download (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/nassp/ProjectApollo_Beta_20071112.zip?download)

Also, Tschachim, I've decided to compile your findings here into a checklist format for quickstart to the moon on the wiki.

EDIT: Ok, I've started typing up the checklist I promised.  I've added the stub I have to Checklists category on the wiki.  The actual link iis here: http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Quickstart_to_the_Moon (http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Quickstart_to_the_Moon)


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Swatch on December 08, 2007, 04:28:42 AM
Lassombra, allow me to just say that what you're doing is exactly what we needed someone to do.  You're bringing ProjectApollo back to the typical orbinaut, someone that much of our work, I must admit, fails to cater to.  I took a brief look at your checklist and one thing stands out at me.... it's very straight forward.  You've managed to put together the bare minimum complexity that ProjectApollo requires, and what I see in that is a very understandable, enjoyable experience that can only serve as a springboard for many an orbinaut.  If someone uses your checklist and successfully flies using ProjectApollo, then they will be more likely to want to know more about what they are flying and the will progressively learn the true nature of ProjectApollo as a Simulation, not just a reenactment.  Keep up the good work!  :ThumbsUp432: :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: ZeroAltitude on December 14, 2007, 03:18:47 PM
This is my first post here, I've been playing with the beta for a week or so, and I'm finally trying this quickstart to the moon.  I've looked at Orbiter before, but never stuck with it because I really wanted something like this, so thank you so very much.

I've just finished the TLI burn, and it looks like I'll hit the moon pretty dead on, which I'll correct with MCC.  Now I get to see how I do at docking.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: lassombra on December 14, 2007, 06:08:04 PM
Fun stuff, the quickstart to the moon checklist is kind of on hold for probably another week while I look at redoing the TLI section.  Other than that, I should be able to finish it in a week or two.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: NoName on December 14, 2007, 07:30:23 PM
Welcome ZeroAltitude :)

I've looked at Orbiter before, but never stuck with it because I really wanted something like this, so thank you so very much.

Yes, that's what most of us probably wanted, and myself for about 15 years :) 

Although I'm a small part of this nice development team, I also have to thank some people here for their great work they're doing. The whole thing is getting more and more breathtaking all the time...  :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: ZeroAltitude on December 14, 2007, 11:08:58 PM
Consider yourself however you'd like, but the panels in here are absolutely stunning.  I'm preparing for the MCC as we speak, and I love the complexity and realism.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: tblaxland on December 16, 2007, 09:39:35 PM
EDIT: Ok, I've started typing up the checklist I promised.  I've added the stub I have to Checklists category on the wiki.  The actual link iis here: http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Quickstart_to_the_Moon (http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Quickstart_to_the_Moon)
lassombra, I second Swatch's comments. I've been away from Project Apollo for a little while doing some STS stuff but I am looking forward to downloading the new beta and playing with it during my Christmas holidays.

One comment on your checklist mentioned above - it seems you are targeting for a prograde lunar orbit. Historically, the lunar orbit was retrograde. My understanding is that this is because it gives a lower delta-V required for TEI.

Anyway, to all on the Project Apollo team, keep up the good work.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: lassombra on December 17, 2007, 12:20:01 AM
actually, it was retrograde because it was lower delta-v required for the lander (not by much, but still lower).  The same principle behind why the launch into earth orbit is done generally eastward.  In both cases it is to take advantage of the existing rotation to generate additional orbital velocity (or to reduce needed deceleration).

That said, I'm currently working on a new TLI for that which, when completed will target the burn as done historically, since the current method doesn't really allow for a decision regarding pro/retrograde (infact, it's aiming  for impact with the moon, which is great if you're flyign the SIV-B, but we're not, we're flying the entire thing!)


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: FordPrefect on March 18, 2008, 08:36:59 AM
actually, it was retrograde because it was lower delta-v required for the lander (not by much, but still lower).  The same principle behind why the launch into earth orbit is done generally eastward.  In both cases it is to take advantage of the existing rotation to generate additional orbital velocity (or to reduce needed deceleration).

That said, I'm currently working on a new TLI for that which, when completed will target the burn as done historically, since the current method doesn't really allow for a decision regarding pro/retrograde (infact, it's aiming  for impact with the moon, which is great if you're flyign the SIV-B, but we're not, we're flying the entire thing!)

Hello lassombra,

thanks for all your input to Project Apollo, you contribute a wealth of information to this project. It could be that I'm wrong but if my assumption is correct, in regard to your conclusion posted above, the orbit being retrograde did not reduce the delta-v required for the LEM. Both spacecraft are orbiting against the moon's rotation, hence the delta-v for the lander during PDI is actually higher, though only by a small amount (as you also stated) as the moon rotates with about 0.5 deg/hour, than if it orbited prograde.

Have you had any success figuring out a new TLI method targeting for a retrograde orbit insertion? I'm trying to fly the 17 mission in quickstart mode these days, right now I am at 14 hours GET. I let it run in realtime, to minimize any propagation errors.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: lassombra on March 21, 2008, 06:05:15 PM
retrograde/prograde don't refer in any way to the way the ship orbited the moon.  At least, not at first.

What it does affect is the actual trajectory that is used, that trajectory leads to wrapping around the moon in the direction of rotation (Right now, we're ending up going backwards around the moon compared to Apollo).


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: FordPrefect on March 21, 2008, 06:25:28 PM
Hmm... I'm confused now. Are you saying that in real life the TLI was aiming for a pass over the moon's trailing hemisphere and then would swing or wrap around to the left, assumed north is up and direction of travel is forward?

Sorry Lassombra, just ensuring we're talking the same language here. When looking down from the north celestial sphere on the Earth-Moon system, the Moon orbits counterclockwise around Earth and also rotates itself counterclockwise, you concur on that?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Swatch on May 28, 2008, 04:33:32 PM
Have these two tutorials been added to the Wiki?

and....

Have we broken this at any point over the past year?

PS. I did the animations for the rover, but no worries!  Redburne did way cooler stuff with the Rover's VC console!


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on May 29, 2008, 06:19:57 AM
Have these two tutorials been added to the Wiki?

Yes, partly, Lassombra is working on that: http://nassp.sf.net/wiki/Quickstart_to_the_Moon

Have we broken this at any point over the past year?

I don't think so, but there might be small bugs/issues because of the new RCS and other changes.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: touchdownner on April 04, 2010, 01:49:06 AM
Hi Apollo fans,

I was curious if it's possible to land the LM on the Moon and return to the Earth with the latest Beta 20070429. The LM internal systems are still in an early stage of development, so I don't expect to use the LM realistically or historically correct, just land and fly back "the Orbiter way". Since it looks like I'm not the only one interested in that I decided to post a kind of "journey diary". :)

I decided to use the Quickstart Mode because I don't want to have much work in the CSM, for the LM there's not much difference to the Standard Mode anyway. Also I used Apollo 14 because of the nicer landing site compared to the flat Apollo 11 site. So at first I fixed the "Scenarios\Project Apollo - NASSP\Quickstart Missions\Apollo 14\Apollo 14 - Launch" scenario, which is already committed to CVS, and here we go:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_OnPad.jpg)

During prelaunch and launch I did nothing except turning on time acceleration and the Saturn V put me in a nice Earth Parking Orbit of 185.4 x 183.2 km as intended. I continued with the TLI burn using IMFD 4.2.1 (not 4.6) as explained in the wiki (http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/TLI_checklist_%28Quickstart%29). This was my IMFD screen directly after burn calculation, the use of a 2nd IMFD in map mode is optional, but very informative (and accurate!)

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_TLI.jpg)

I did the burn using the IMFD autoburn feature and the burn was just perfect, the IMFD map mode reported after the burn that I'll directly crash into the center of the Moon. That's not something I actually want to do :wink:, but I'll correct that later.

LV seperation, transposition, docking and LM extraction was routine, again I did it as explained in the wiki (http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Transposition_and_Docking_checklist_%28Quickstart%29). And here's the CSM/LM stack on the way to the Moon:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_LMExtraction.jpg)

Up to now the mission wasn't very exciting, everything was working fine as documented and expected and Trans Lunar Coast was even more boring :wink:, I did just nothing, not even PTC, and used time acceleration 1000x until the automatic "it's time for correction" call happend at about T+60h.

The IMFD map mode still showed a direct Moon impact and now with the first Mid Course Correction (MCC) I really should fix that. Since I left the "well documented mission phases" I had some more work to do. I used the IMFD Base Approach program with the Moon as reference, "Fra Mauro-Base" as target (you need to type that actually), altitude 110k, approach for "Orbit-Insert" and a time to ejection of 300s (to have enough time before the burn) which resulted in the following screen, the use of a 2nd IMFD in map mode is optional again:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_MCC.jpg)

Two things are important to do before activating the IMFD autoburn feature:

- Switch both SIG COND/DRIVER BIAS POWER switches on panel 7 (left) to OFF, otherwise the RJ/EC will "overwrite" IMFDs attitude commands.
- Orient the CSM/LM stack manually using the IMFD Burn Vector (BV) screen, IMFD has problems orienting the bulky stack properly.

After that's IMFD did the burn correctly. Approaching further to the Moon I noticed that the Base Approach program showed a decreasing periapsis altitude (and so an increasing burn time), the IMFD map showed a negative (but stable) periapsis altitude. So I did my 2nd (and last) MCC burn more smart. :wink: I waited until I was inside the lunar SOI at about T+75h and used the same Base Approach program configuration as before, but adjusted my altitude until I had an periapsis altitude of 110 km on the IMFD map (Plan button, blue trajectory). I ended up with an altitude of about 200 km in the Base Approach program. This worked great for the map mode and in the reality.

Next step is LOI, which is rather simple since here LazyD's "autopilot coverage" begins. There are a couple of Simple AGC (http://nassp.sf.net/wiki/Simple_AGC) programs both for the CSM and the LM explained in the LMDoc.txt file in your "Doc\Project Apollo - NASSP" folder. LOI is program P16, which I started about an hour before periapsis:

SIG COND/DRIVER BIAS POWER - AC1, AC2 again
SC CONT - CMC
dV THRUST A - NORMAL
DSKY: V37E 16E

The DSKY shows:
   R1=time to ignition(before ignition)/time to cutoff(after ignition)
   R2=altitude xxx.x km
   R3=offplane distance xxx.x km

Time acceleration can be used until the burn starts. Everything runs automatically, I just did nothing (again) and watched the burn from outside:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_LOIBurn.jpg)

The burn took place at about T+80h, I ended up with a quite low orbit, 133 x 49 km, but I decided that this is fine for now (the Moon has a spherical gravity field in Orbiter, no MASCONs). I had 30% SPS propellants left, we'll see if I come back with that...

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_LOI.jpg)

So far, so good. I didn't expect any major problems up to now with the CSM only, of course. I now changed to the LM and did the following LM activation procedure:

In the LM:

DESCENT POWER, HI VOLTAGE 4 x ON (talkback gray) on panel 14 (<CTRL><RIGHT> twice from center panel)
MAIN SOV, SYS A/B 2 x OPEN (talkback gray) on panel 2 (center panel)
ENGINE ARM - DES on panel 1
EXPLOSIVE DEVICES, MASTER ARM - ON on panel 8 (<CTRL><LEFT> twice from center panel)
EXPLOSIVE DEVICES, LDG GEAR DEPLOY - FIRE (talkback gray)
DSKY: PRO, V37E 00E

That's all, the LM should be up and running (at least in an "Orbiter sense"). It doesn't matter if you're docked or not, so you can deploy the landing gear after undocking, too. I decided to do an "Apollo 11 style" landing (undocked LM does the DOI burn), because I want to test the LM. So next step was undocking:

Back in the CSM:
DOCKING PROBE - unguard, EXTD/REL

Now I wondered how the LM will perform in it's first burn, the Descent Orbit Insertion (DOI).
In the LM again, enter in the DSKY:

V37E 17E
V16E (to show the countdown)

The DSKY shows:
   R1=Number of passes BEFORE landing
   R2=MM SS minutes and seconds to plane change burn, or seconds if more than -99 minutes
   R3=Burn dv m/s MM.M

I used time acceleration until be burn began and it really worked fine, periapsis altitude 15 km:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_DOI.jpg)

Next I did the landing site alignment burn, which is only necessary if our offplane distance is greater than 24 km, but I wanted to check that anyway:

V37E 18E
V16E (to show the countdown)

The DSKY shows:
   R1=Number of passes
   R2=MM SS minutes and seconds to plane change burn, or seconds if more than -99 minutes
   R3=Burn dv m/s MM.M

In my case it was a really short burn, I don't know if it was really necessary. And now the really interesting part, the landing. About 1000km before the landing site I entered

V37E 63E

Well, and then I did what I have done most of the time: Nothing! :wink:

(http://nassp.sf.net/images/temp/Apollo14_LMLanding.jpg)

...and the LM landed just perfect! The landing and lunar EVA is also explained in the wiki (http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/LM_landing_checklist_%28Quickstart%29), so no need to talk about LDP etc. here, but of course I visited Cone Crater with the rover, which Big Al unfortunately didn't had in the real Apollo 14 mission... :)

Looks like the LM works very well, I can provide some intermediate scenarios if wanted, but altogether it wasn't that big deal thanks to LazyD's great autopilots and Jarmo's IMFD, next we'll see if I come back to Earth, too.

To be continued...

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: touchdownner on April 04, 2010, 04:19:40 AM
There is a QUestion?

I can not do the start-up of the LM.  Because :
1. Why is it that DSKY(AGC) of LM does not operate?

2. Descent enjine is not burning.

3.  LDG GEAR is no deployed.

4. Ascent stage enjine is not burning.

By the way.My commputer installed  ""Modules Pack (January 4, 2010)ProjectApollo_Beta_20100104.zip ""and "CVS snapshot (January 4, 2010)ProjectApollo_CVS_20100104.zip""




Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: martin-144 on April 19, 2010, 07:20:37 AM
Hi everyone,

Im new to the forums here, but ive been a while now with orbiter.
It seems Im having the same problem as the previous poster.

My version of nassp is ProjectApollo_Beta_20100104.zip. While in Moon orbit, my LM seems to have no power at all. The 4 switches on panel 14 just do nothing, and the AGC keeps off.
However deploying the landing gear works :-|

I hope someones still reading here and can help...

Thanks, Martin


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on April 19, 2010, 07:38:06 AM
I hear you, but the LM is currently under heavy development. Perhaps someone of the LM guys can help you, but I fear you need to wait until it's further developed, sorry.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Spacesamurai on April 19, 2010, 09:36:30 AM
ive never gotten to the moon in all my years of this sim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on April 19, 2010, 11:48:43 AM
Perhaps you should try the delta glider first...  :wink:


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: martin-144 on April 19, 2010, 01:01:08 PM
Hi again,

getting to the Moon is not a great deal. There are many tutorials which tell you how to do. My special problem is getting the LM powered up. I started with the Scenario "Apollo 14 Quickstart - Launch", and now in Moon orbit, theres no chance to power up th LM.

Whatever, when loading the scenario file "Apollo 14 - before powered descent" the automatic descent using the AGC (it is switched on by default) works fine , but Im still not able to get power using the "Descent Power - Hi Voltage" switches.

So I think the LM ist some kind of working, but maybe theres some thing badly configured, or I missed some special switch.

I would greatly appreciate your further help, or simply tell me that it isnt working right now.

Thanks,
Martin


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: retro on April 22, 2010, 10:49:36 AM
Ok with that said >The LM is not ready   :chillpill45656:













Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: dseagrav on April 22, 2010, 01:26:16 PM
The LM is nowhere near complete. It's still being worked on. Please do not report LM issues as bugs unless they are specifically asked for.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Stefan H on October 08, 2010, 03:26:46 AM
Hello,

I've got a problem here, I tried several times to fly to the moon (Apollo 14 Quickstart - Launch) but I always get a Master Caution. The lampboard shows up "SM RCS A" to "SM RCS D", it seems I am always running out of fuel before or during the LOI?

I have the actual version installed, but I can't get it...

Any tipps / ideas?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: dseagrav on October 08, 2010, 04:12:41 PM
Did you open the secondaries?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Stefan H on October 09, 2010, 07:37:28 AM
Thanks for your reply!

The Secondarys? What do you mean by that? There has nothing been written about that in the Tutorial. At the moment I am reading the Documentations by the NASA, but I am not that far...

What do you mean with secondarys?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: dseagrav on October 09, 2010, 08:25:04 AM
Secondary propellant valves. Just below the primary switches on the MDC. You're suppposed to open them when the primaries start to run low.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Stefan H on October 09, 2010, 12:32:49 PM
Thank you, but that doesn't work, but it sounds logical. I can't get them activated...

I can't find the documentation for the SM RCS...


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on October 10, 2010, 10:25:08 AM
Yes, the RCS articles are still work-in-progress...  :oops:
http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/CSM_RCS

Other than the secondary propellant valves, the RCS thrusters might be too cold. If you post/attach a scenario, I'll take a look.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Stefan H on October 11, 2010, 08:00:30 AM
Tschachim: Thanks for your help in advance, I attached the scenario, at the point where everything seems to be alright...before LOI  :ashamed45523:





Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on October 12, 2010, 07:10:09 AM
Thanks for the scenario, but I need one saved shortly after the RCS has failed, so I can check the root cause.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: joejccva71 on October 12, 2010, 02:11:42 PM
Tschachim,

Forgive me if this was posted a dozen times but can we use the Apollo 14 quickstart mission and land on the moon, take off and come back to earth successfully?  I understand if the scenario's themselves are broken, but we can still fly the spacecraft and use all of the controls/buttons in the CSM/LM, correct?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: retro on October 12, 2010, 04:27:52 PM
Yes it can be done! but you should wait until it is fixed.Lots of work is being done on the Lem,just be patent! :ThumbsUp432:


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: joejccva71 on October 13, 2010, 12:09:05 PM
Ok thanks.  One more question.  I was having a ton of trouble trying to do the transposition and docking.  I spent 2 hours just trying to lineup and use my thrusters correctly and I kept messing up.  Is there a better method to docking to where I'm not pulling my hair out?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Stefan H on October 13, 2010, 12:31:07 PM
joejccva71: Not really realistic but when you will separate the SM from the SIVB/LM-Stack and only fire up your thruster backwards (you will crash into it, don't turn the ship, simply num+9) when your SM is completely in the stage you will dock.

Tschachim: I have attached my scenario... ;-) Thanks a lot! :ThumbsUp432:



Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Stefan H on October 14, 2010, 06:21:13 AM
I don't know why but I finally managed to get POST-LOI with the Apollo 11 - Quickstart Scenario. The LM don't want to get powered up, but I know that there is a lot of work to do...

I will now throw my LM to the moon, and try to get back to Earth.  :Excited432:


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on October 14, 2010, 05:16:29 PM
Tschachim: I have attached my scenario... ;-) Thanks a lot! :ThumbsUp432:
Thanks, but the RCS is still working fine in the new scenario?  :?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Stefan H on October 15, 2010, 06:59:08 AM
? Sorry, but get a Master Caution when i load that scenario....

In the first scenario I posted the only thing to do is entering the LOI-Program in the DSKY and waiting for the insertion burn and after a bit of time I get four SM RCS cautions on the C/W board.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Tschachim on October 15, 2010, 09:36:35 AM
? Sorry, but get a Master Caution when i load that scenario....

...and the Master Alarm was already there when you saved the scenario? According to the scenario there was no alarm and no C/W light lit when the scenario was saved:

CWS_BEGIN
  LASTO2FLOWCHECKHIGH 0
  NEXTO2FLOWCHECKTIME 974.426265773046
  MODE 0
  TEST 0
  STATE 1 -> The 1 means the Master Alarm light isn't disabled, i.e. you're not in Boost Mode
  LLIGHTS 0
  RLIGHTS 0

CWS_END

I'll try to do a LOI with either of the scenarios, perhaps I can reproduce the problem this way...

EDIT:

Done, unfortunately I still can't reproduce the problem. I started the 2nd scenario, Apollo 14 Quickstart - Launch 0002 0003 0002 0003.scn (again no alarms) and did:

SIG COND/DRIVER BIAS POWER - AC1, AC2
SC CONT - CMC
dV THRUST A - NORMAL
DSKY: RSET
         V37E 16E

and an hour later I was in lunar orbit, scenario is attached. I'm puzzled, can someone else reproduce the problem?


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: korolevspace on December 07, 2010, 01:17:39 AM
Hi. I'm still wondering when is NASSP 7.0 going to have a stable release rather than a beta release? I think the development process is taking way too long and other addons already worked faster than NASSP, such as AMSO. I think releasing the stable release would reduce the fears like LM not working, launch failures, etc.

Thanks.

korolevspace


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: dseagrav on December 07, 2010, 08:41:32 AM
Of course other addons are faster, they're not anywhere near as complex and detailed as our project. We've been moving at a speed comparable to that of NASA when developing the original equipment, which is about right considering that the majority of our work is documentation archaeology and reverse-engineering rather than just banging out code. No offense to the AMSO guys, but all AMSO has to do is look like Apollo and fly roughly like Apollo. Ours has to be correct in all aspects possible. We're using original software and procedures and building the ship around them. AMSO doesn't have to do any of that at all, they can just make their own stuff up as they go. It's a world apart.

If you think it's taking too long you are more than welcome to throw your hat into the ring and help us out rather than just gripe about it.


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: retro on December 07, 2010, 08:02:54 PM
  :wink:


Title: Re: Project Apollo 7 Beta to the Moon...
Post by: Swatch on December 09, 2010, 12:44:20 PM
Also, I'd like to point out that ProjectApollo 7 is focused on the CSM in earth orbit.  In that sense, it is a pretty stable release. :)