Meadville Space Center

Project Apollo - NASSP => Sounds => Topic started by: NoName on December 21, 2007, 10:00:55 PM



Title: Sound Environment
Post by: NoName on December 21, 2007, 10:00:55 PM
I would like to mention and guess a few things concerning the sound environment within the CM as well as the LEM, because it is a very important thing in my point of view. 

On the Space Shuttle flight deck during ascent, after SRB separation, you don't hear the engines running anymore(http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=iwfsFtpACFw). I think for Apollo and any other rocket it's almost the same case. The vibrations might be transferred to the CSM, but I think because of the missing earth atmosphere you don't "hear" the engines running. So at the moment it's not really realistic. It's way too loud. At least there has to be a significant difference between the engine sound at lift off and after leaving the dense atmosphere. I think it would be a good compromise be to be able to hear the engine sound of the second stage and SIVB at least rather tubby for those who can't life without engine sounds. The sound of the SPS and LEM engines also should sound more quietly because of a missing atmosphere. The only things you basically notice in a space craft is what is transferred by it's structure, and that basically is vibrations rather than any loud rumbling engine sounds (you also can't hear the RCS and OMS on the Shuttle's flight deck). We really should work on it although it sounds less dramatic/cinematic then...

The separation of the boost protective cover and LES during ascent also sounds not really realisitc I guess, and it's taken from the movie "Apollo 13" anyhow. Inside the real command module you note the separation only as a pretty short tubby bang and that's it. No atmosphere and special sound effects again (and outside you just hear nothing of course).

For the general interior sound of the CM and LEM we should make the suit circuit flow audible gently like the cabin fans. As already mentioned in another thread, the ECS has it's special gentle sound like in the Shuttle, ISS... too. I'm not sure if we could add such a sound to a runnuing ECS, otherwise we just go ahead with the suit circuit and cabin fans sound.

My conclusion is that at the moment it's just way too loud during ascent, and after ascent when in space, there is almost no sound within the CM at all. This should be changed a little bit. It's not that quiet in the real thing after launch and ascent. 

What do you think?   


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Christophe on December 22, 2007, 11:27:44 AM
Hi moonwalker!
I agree with you concerning the fact that the current sounds are probably not realistic;
I would just point out that a launch, and in general way, a space flight is surely something very impressive. I mean that the astronauts are probably under the feeling of plenty of different and impressive sensations. I'm thinking about accelearations, vibrations, sounds and even some smells.
Don't forget that, in front of our PC we don't feel almost anything of that. The only way to feel something, in my mind is sound. Sound could transcript some of other feelings, for example, I'm pretty sure than my brain, when hearing a loud thrust noise, "translates" that into the feeling of the power and even, acceleration.
My vote would be for a frequency change of the sound from the normal atmospheric to the deep space, in order to point out the difference, but in my mind the level should be kept.
An other example: about staging: how to get the feeling of the rumble, jerks and jolts of that phase except with sounds? It's a question of ambience I think...
I don't know if that is clear enough because it's hard to say that in english.
I'm curious about people's opinion about that.


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Tschachim on December 22, 2007, 12:54:30 PM
I concur with Christophe about the "immersion", a little bit exaggeration is fine for me, but the sounds shouldn't be too unrealistic, of course. About the ECS sound: I don't remember where I read that, but the sound of the suit compressor wasn't described as gentle, more like loud, shrill, annoying and very hard to adapt to.

...and I'm somewhat happy that we are not able to simulate the smell inside the CM...  :wink:

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Swatch on December 22, 2007, 01:39:55 PM
Keep in mind also that there would be quite a bit of low frequency sounds transmitted into the cockpit during launch and engine firings.  As the atmosphere gets thinner, you'll definitely lose your high pitched sonics from the combustion just below the nozzles.  So what needs to be done is drop the upper frequencies with increasing hight.


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: jc121081 on December 22, 2007, 01:44:05 PM
...and I'm somewhat happy that we are not able to simulate the smell inside the CM...  :wink:

Heh heh, especially on Apollo 8. :yuck4543:


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Coussini on December 22, 2007, 02:04:46 PM
About the sound... i heard in the docking sound In the Shadow of the Moon and our docking sound was not realy correct.

The correct sound is like a bumping car. See the next link (wait 10 second before download)
Probably, you can include this next sound in your NASSP 7.0


http://w5.media-convert.com/convert/?xid=mmgttxbe


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: NoName on December 22, 2007, 02:22:12 PM
I think I have to make an individual sound set as I already feared ;) I'll offer it on the NASA Virtual web page as soon as the page is online again (and if Apollo 7 is released finally). Then users have the choice.

But for the official Project Apollo sound I guess that we at least should include the suit compressor and ECS sound as "optional" (scenario config file). 

I'll upload a preview sound pack as soon as it is ready. Maybe you would like to see one or two things included...


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: FordPrefect on December 22, 2007, 03:08:20 PM
Well, I'm with Moonwalker's suggestions about the sound environment, I'm all for realsim. However, keeping some sound effects to give the user some cues (of running engines e.g.) as Tschachim and Christophe said are a good idea on the other hand.

One thing I am pretty certain to be audible inside the CM besides the ECS sound is the "rushing" sound of the outside airflow, with its volume peaking at Max Q. I had listened to the onboard voice recording of Apollo 17 launch (by spacecraftfilms) and you can clearly hear it in the background. Gene Cernan, having already one Saturn V launch in his log (Apollo 10), even advices Ron and Jack about the increasing wind noise, rattling and vibrating when they pass through Max Q. We have to have (a similar) sound effect in NASSP Saturn V launch!



Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Mooncat on December 22, 2007, 04:06:54 PM
I'm fairly sure that in the book 'Lost Moon' ( Apollo 13 ) James Lovell describes a normally functioning CM as being quite a noisy enviroment. I don't think I would want that simulated TOO accurately while flying at 10X acceleration  :D


PS:- Happy Christmas, Joyeux Noel, Felices Navidades, Frohe Weihnachten and Natale Allegro to all :)


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Christophe on December 22, 2007, 04:42:52 PM
About the sound... i heard in the docking sound In the Shadow of the Moon and our docking sound was not realy correct.

The correct sound is like a bumping car. See the next link (wait 10 second before download)
Probably, you can include this next sound in your NASSP 7.0


http://w5.media-convert.com/convert/?xid=mmgttxbe

I definitely like it  :ThumbsUp432: I think we should keep it as the standard docking sound.


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Swatch on December 22, 2007, 05:02:00 PM
I might see if I can do some audio manipulation with this clip to remove excess noise such as that high pitched whine.


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: NoName on December 22, 2007, 06:13:34 PM
I'm fairly sure that in the book 'Lost Moon' ( Apollo 13 ) James Lovell describes a normally functioning CM as being quite a noisy enviroment. I don't think I would want that simulated TOO accurately while flying at 10X acceleration  :D

Well, I don't use time acceleration at all. Neither in Orbiter, nor for any other simulation. People like me are called "hardcore simmers" I think :D That's why I only fly no more than 3 missions per year (it takes a lot of time for preparation and training). During the missions, I follow the rest and eat periods of the real flight plans. I even have velcro alongside my LCD (rather useful).

No, that's not a joke. 

Concerning the quite noisy enviroment of the CM: that's what I mean. It even is hearable in a few Apollo clips. We really should enable such sounds, at least as an option to chose...   


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Coussini on December 23, 2007, 08:31:32 AM
About the sound... i heard in the docking sound In the Shadow of the Moon and our docking sound was not realy correct.

The correct sound is like a bumping car. See the next link (wait 10 second before download)
Probably, you can include this next sound in your NASSP 7.0


http://w5.media-convert.com/convert/?xid=mmgttxbe

I definitely like it  :ThumbsUp432: I think we should keep it as the standard docking sound.

Thanks Christophe. This sound is for docking only. After, you can use the current for the RETRACT Button.

WHAT DO YOU THING ABOUT THAT
.
Someonelse hear my sound. This is the real one from the In the Shadow of the Moon movie. 
This is the link for sound: http://w5.media-convert.com/convert/?xid=mmgttxbe
This is the link for video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8xbuMXZOy0

The current NASSP 7.0 docking sound is for the retract button but not when the docking append?


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: NoName on December 23, 2007, 09:23:09 AM
The docking sound of In the Shadow of the Moon certainly is some artistic work (the sound just is too plainly audible to be recorded within the CM 37 years ago). I think the only real thing is the footage itself...

Same for the second stage separation and SIVB ignition sound too within this movie, while looking the footage from inside the second stage. It's just edited for the viewer. The only real thing is the footage itself, which is the second stage separation and third stage ignition, mixed with some "new" exterior sounds (separation and engine ignition) and underlaid by the TLI audio from mission control to wrongly present the separation footage as the "TLI burn". You have to be careful when using things out of "movies" ;)

Nevertheless, this movie is great!


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Coussini on December 23, 2007, 09:53:59 AM
The docking sound of In the Shadow of the Moon certainly is some artistic work (the sound just is too plainly audible to be recorded within the CM 37 years ago). I think the only real thing is the footage itself...


 :no45:
I'm not sure of that. There's a archive film from NASA. This is a real thing and not a fake. I think NASA has many power and money to create this kind of sequence in this moment. Imagine, at this time... many people didn't have color camera. NASA had a length in advance on all. Soo that probably the real sound inside the CM. The current sound (NASSP 7.0) is from Apollo 13 movie, and this movie is realy an artistic work from the begenning to the end.

Many people was very surprise to hear and see something from the moon in the TV in 1969. That's not a fake. NASA have many money and have the top ressource from the last university rechearch....

Sorry but i don't see any artistic work in this sequence:
This is the link for video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8xbuMXZOy0


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: NoName on December 23, 2007, 10:46:32 AM
Well, lots of sounds from inside the CM (which was recorded three decades ago) isn't that good as shown in the movie In the Shadow of the Moon.   

You have to remember that In the Shadow of the Moon is rather edited and cut. It uses real footage but not real sound all along. It's more artistic/cinematic and journalistic work of putting things together to make a cinematic documentary (just have a close look the false TLI scene and sound...). That's why NASA answers rather cautious concerning this movie. I have a few good NASA recordings and unspectacular documentaries on VHS. You can see a lot of inside the space craft and almost all that footage doesn't fit the sound of In the Shadow of the Moon. The sound and picture of the onboard hand-held cameras isn't that good compared to todays technology. And those cameras were used to capture the docking sequences too... ;)

Nevertheless, we have to get some sound. So it's okay if we use that one of In the Shadow of the Moon :ThumbsUp432: I just mentioned that for sure this is also not the real thing, like in "Apollo 13" too ;)


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Coussini on December 23, 2007, 07:42:58 PM
Ok, i presume that it's will be interesting to replace the current docking sound by my docking sound from the movie In the Shadow of the Moon. The actual sound must be interresting when you use retract button. That's my idea.

Imagine in real situation, so you can hear the sound of the docking probe... I think that's very close to the real sound. If you presume that's realistic and fake, the people create a sound like that because it's probably near the real situation...

I'm sure that these people didn't use elephant sound for that  :ROTFL3453:

I think you understand.

when two solid comes into contact, the sound should be like that.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8xbuMXZOy0


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Christophe on December 27, 2007, 01:39:53 PM
Well, I don't use time acceleration at all. Neither in Orbiter, nor for any other simulation. People like me are called "hardcore simmers" I think :D That's why I only fly no more than 3 missions per year (it takes a lot of time for preparation and training). During the missions, I follow the rest and eat periods of the real flight plans. I even have velcro alongside my LCD (rather useful).

No, that's not a joke. 

So do I... we probably are some crazy guys...


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: NoName on December 27, 2007, 02:06:23 PM
Well, I don't use time acceleration at all. Neither in Orbiter, nor for any other simulation. People like me are called "hardcore simmers" I think :D That's why I only fly no more than 3 missions per year (it takes a lot of time for preparation and training). During the missions, I follow the rest and eat periods of the real flight plans. I even have velcro alongside my LCD (rather useful).

No, that's not a joke. 

So do I... we probably are some crazy guys...

Yeah :)

But actually the whole manned space flight is a crazy thing and something special :cool7777:


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Zachstar on June 24, 2008, 06:33:03 PM
If there is any sounds from movies or non public domain documentaries I feel we need to remove them.

I am not a lawyer but I believe sound effects are protected under copyright law.


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: movieman on June 25, 2008, 01:26:26 PM
If there is any sounds from movies or non public domain documentaries I feel we need to remove them.

Agreed: we should try to use original public domain sounds from NASA where possible anyway.


Title: Re: Sound Environment
Post by: Zachstar on June 25, 2008, 03:26:39 PM
If there is any sounds from movies or non public domain documentaries I feel we need to remove them.

Agreed: we should try to use original public domain sounds from NASA where possible anyway.


Yes but the problem is those sounds are usually very low quality. Mostly gotten from the Video and sounds feeds during the mission.

So what we need to do is find modern format replacements for those.

What I suggest is this. I want to get a microphone set up then after quieting the room make a multitude of sounds with different objects. Then we need to get someone familiar with Apollo sounds to edit and form the sounds into acceptable and quality replacements for some sounds.

But we really have to remove the copyrighted sounds. If I remember right the old NASSP had sounds from the Movie Apollo 13 so they must be removed.