Meadville Space Center

Project Apollo - NASSP => Support & Bugs => Topic started by: Thymo on April 24, 2016, 07:10:43 PM



Title: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on April 24, 2016, 07:10:43 PM
Alright. So I've decided to give the Apollo 7 another go, this time with the updated checklists.
Everything went fine till around T+12:00:00 when I noticed my ECS radiator in- and outlet temperature were off the scale and my pot and waste tanks were empty (haven't dumped anything yet).
Could someone explain why and how this happened and what steps should be taken to correct this?
I've attached a picture and scenario for reference.

http://puu.sh/ouyFR/526d211458.scn (http://puu.sh/ouyFR/526d211458.scn) - forums wouldn't let me attach it so I've uploaded it here.
(http://puu.sh/ouxOZ/0f8cd3a9c6.png)


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: eddievhfan1984 on April 24, 2016, 11:31:41 PM
Did they just "vent", or did it decay over time?


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on April 25, 2016, 04:06:06 AM
I'm not sure as I only noticed it after it showed like this. I am only twelve hours into the mission though, it shouldn't decay that fast, right?


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: indy91 on April 25, 2016, 05:41:40 AM
I think I got it to normal in your scenario. I noticed two things: On the PAMFD the primary coolant loop test is enabled and the secondary coolant loop is on. Might be both intentional. I'm not quite sure what I did to fix it, but I went through some checklists from the CSM Systems Checklist (http://history.nasa.gov/ap15fj/a15docs.htm). To check out the systems I performed the ECS Periodic Verification (page S1-5). So first a ECS Monitoring Check, then the ECS Periodic Redundant Component Check and then a Primary Evaporator Reservice (page S1-13). The last checklist probably did the job, because your H2O dried up or something. So all in all I simply went through some checklist to make sure the whole ECS system is in the correct configuration and after a while the temperatures went down.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on April 25, 2016, 08:49:41 AM
Ok, that mostly fixed it.
Is the potable water supposed to fill itself again? I thought it would fill from the water from the Fuel Cells but it's staying empty.

The test and sec loop were just me trying things that might help the radiators cooldown. Didn't really help.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: indy91 on April 25, 2016, 09:10:58 AM
The test and sec loop were just me trying things that might help the radiators cooldown. Didn't really help.

Yeah, that's what I suspected.

Quote
Ok, that mostly fixed it.
Is the potable water supposed to fill itself again? I thought it would fill from the water from the Fuel Cells but it's staying empty.

I'm certainly no expert on the CSM ECS system, but it might just take a while to fill. Here is a nice schematic: http://nassp.sourceforge.net/w/images/1/1e/CSM_systems_diagram.gif


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on April 25, 2016, 09:24:46 AM
Oh well. I just stopped at the nearest space station and refilled my tanks (copying the tank values from my save after insert), I'll monitor the levels more closely this time.
Thanks for the help.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on April 25, 2016, 11:31:17 AM
I just found that you have to open the potable tank inlet before it refills. As soon as I opened the valve on panel 352 it started refilling.  :D


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on September 21, 2016, 01:06:51 PM
Running into another problem this time.

When I'm launching in Apollo 9 I have difficulty maintaining cabin temperature.
At some point during the ascent cabin temperature starts to decrease to the point where the gauge is pegged on the bottom.

The only way I know to stop this from happening so far is setting both cabin pressure relief handles to the closed position. Boost/ Entry and Normal will still fail to maintain the temperature.

I've taken a look at the aoh vol. 1 in the ECS section. (http://history.nasa.gov/afj/aoh/aoh-v1-2-07-ecs.pdf (http://history.nasa.gov/afj/aoh/aoh-v1-2-07-ecs.pdf), page 17). It says I can configure the ECS for maximum cabin heating with the primary cabin temp control valve. Is that valve simulated? I can see that valve on panel 303 but I can't seem to operate it.

TLDR; How do I get the cabin temperature back to normal levels?


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: indy91 on September 21, 2016, 02:10:52 PM
I've had that before. If none of the two cabin fans is on, then the temperature goes down. So switch at least one of them on.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on September 21, 2016, 03:32:14 PM
Both were on, actually.
I tried switching one of them off and deactivating the primary evaporator. That seemed to do something. The temp meter came up one pixel.
I'll leave it running like this for a while and report back.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on September 21, 2016, 04:08:22 PM
Doesn't look like it did anything after all. Temperature increased by 4F and stopped after that.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: eddievhfan1984 on September 21, 2016, 04:12:43 PM
Did you set the auto temperature dial on the left side of the ECS control switches? You can use that to crank it up as well... Works fine for me on A7.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on September 21, 2016, 04:23:09 PM
I don't see one on the left. Don't you mean the Cabin temp controls to the right of the glycol evap controls?
The switch is set on auto and I tried both 3 and 9 on the dial with no result.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: eddievhfan1984 on September 22, 2016, 06:29:13 AM
Suit circuit return valve pulled?


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on September 22, 2016, 01:57:52 PM
Yes , it is.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: rcflyinghokie on September 23, 2016, 09:26:37 AM
When you launched this scn, did you use the auto checklist?


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on September 23, 2016, 09:51:36 AM
I used the launch checklist from the word checklists.

My scenario is attached a couple of posts back.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: rcflyinghokie on September 23, 2016, 10:11:52 AM
I used the launch checklist from the word checklists.

My scenario is attached a couple of posts back.

I ran it and there are a lot of problems with the ECS config, I configured the ECS in your scn and got a cabin temp increase in about 2 hours.  However if you properly configure it during launch and insertion it shouldn't drop at all.
The switches I changed were:
P325-Prim Glycol to Radiators:Flow
P351-Emergency Cabin Pressure: Both
P2-ECS RAD Flow cont: PWR
ECS RAD Heater: Prim 1
Suit Cir H2O Accum: Auto
Cabin Fan 1&2: On
H2 & O2 tank heaters: On

I have attached my post launch A9 scn if you wish to see.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: Thymo on September 24, 2016, 07:38:05 PM
Yeah must have missed some step during launch. Even without doing nothing and accelerating for 2+ hours gets the temperature back to normal.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: macieksoft on February 11, 2018, 09:27:04 AM
Seems like in one of recent builds ECS in CSM got broken.
I am now trying various saves that were working well some builds before and now i am getting issues with primary glycool loop.

It is simply overheating very quickly, even when CSM is in shadow. Glycool radiators gets hot very quickly warming up the loop. After spending around 30 minutes on orbit after insertion rad inlet and outlet are >100 *F.
I tried tampering with switches but got no luck. Glycool pumps are running, rads aren't bypassed, checked PA MFD ECS page and it shows normal wattage for primary glycool loop (around 2400), test wattage is at 0. When CSM gets in the shadow rads aren't cooling things at all. They are still very hot.

Anyone got such a problems?

EDIT: attaching scenarios

In PDI demo this bit** is already warmed up ;-P
In postlaunch scenario temp is normal but starts to go up in much less than 40 minutes.



Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: macieksoft on February 11, 2018, 11:42:31 AM
In build 986 ECS radiators seems fine. In auto mode they cool the loop quite well.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: rcflyinghokie on February 11, 2018, 11:57:08 AM
Seems like in one of recent builds ECS in CSM got broken.
I am now trying various saves that were working well some builds before and now i am getting issues with primary glycool loop.

It is simply overheating very quickly, even when CSM is in shadow. Glycool radiators gets hot very quickly warming up the loop. After spending around 30 minutes on orbit after insertion rad inlet and outlet are >100 *F.
I tried tampering with switches but got no luck. Glycool pumps are running, rads aren't bypassed, checked PA MFD ECS page and it shows normal wattage for primary glycool loop (around 2400), test wattage is at 0. When CSM gets in the shadow rads aren't cooling things at all. They are still very hot.

Anyone got such a problems?

EDIT: attaching scenarios

In PDI demo this bit** is already warmed up ;-P
In postlaunch scenario temp is normal but starts to go up in much less than 40 minutes.



Glad you noticed this, I have had my head buried in the LM for too long it seems, I feel like Tom Kelly!  Anyways we think we narrowed down the change that caused this and are working a solution now, a fix *should* be up today.

EDIT:  Problem may be somewhere other than a recent valve change.  I will look at that previous build and see what could have changed that.

EDIT 2:  We found the issue your CSM should work normally now.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: macieksoft on February 15, 2018, 09:01:54 AM
So in build 1068 ECS gonna work properly?
Have you also checked manual mode? I remember haveing some problems with it in earlier builds. Temperature kept rising no matters which radiator i selected with man sel switch when mode was at manual. Even when in auto it worked well.
So that just my suggestion that manual mode could be broken.
Have you tried switching to manual and tampering with man sel switch to select particular radiator?


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: rcflyinghokie on February 16, 2018, 11:43:40 AM
So in build 1068 ECS gonna work properly?
Have you also checked manual mode? I remember haveing some problems with it in earlier builds. Temperature kept rising no matters which radiator i selected with man sel switch when mode was at manual. Even when in auto it worked well.
So that just my suggestion that manual mode could be broken.
Have you tried switching to manual and tampering with man sel switch to select particular radiator?

The build works properly, at least works how it used to.  The CSM ECS will need a facelift in the future.

Regarding your manual mode question, which procedure are you using to accomplish this switchover?


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: macieksoft on February 16, 2018, 12:43:02 PM
Flow control switch to down position (MAN SEL position which regarding to documentation should transfer control of radiators to MAN SEL switch) and then use MAN SEL switch up or down to select one of two radiators. Center position of MAN SEL switch is bypass of both radiators and IIRC it worked fine.
Problem was that when using radiator 1 or 2 selected manually (trough MAN SEL switch) in both cases temperature was always rising. When i put it into center it was rising even faster, but this was normal as radiators should be bypassed in this position so temperature rise is what you expect.

For normal automatic operation u use flow control switch in upper position (labelled PWR) which transfers control to auto switch which lets you select which controller you wanna use (there are 2 controllers which automatically adjusts flow trough radiators and bypass of the hot one). In additon to this putting AUTO switch in upper position (labelled AUTO) gives automatic switchover to second controller if primary had to fail.

Normal (automatic) operation is with AUTO and FLOW CONT switches both in upper position and MAN SEL switch with any position (this switch is ignored when FLOW CONT switch is at PWR).

It is described in AOH control and displays at page 3-117.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: rcflyinghokie on February 16, 2018, 01:03:20 PM
Flow control switch to down position (MAN SEL position which regarding to documentation should transfer control of radiators to MAN SEL switch) and then use MAN SEL switch up or down to select one of two radiators. Center position of MAN SEL switch is bypass of both radiators and IIRC it worked fine.
Problem was that when using radiator 1 or 2 selected manually (trough MAN SEL switch) in both cases temperature was always rising. When i put it into center it was rising even faster, but this was normal as radiators should be bypassed in this position so temperature rise is what you expect.

For normal automatic operation u use flow control switch in upper position (labelled PWR) which transfers control to auto switch which lets you select which controller you wanna use (there are 2 controllers which automatically adjusts flow trough radiators and bypass of the hot one). In additon to this putting AUTO switch in upper position (labelled AUTO) gives automatic switchover to second controller if primary had to fail.

Normal (automatic) operation is with AUTO and FLOW CONT switches both in upper position and MAN SEL switch with any position (this switch is ignored when FLOW CONT switch is at PWR).

It is described in AOH control and displays at page 3-117.

Right but do you have a switchover procedure?

And I just tried it myself and get the same results.  Probably overlooked in the original design of the CSM ECS.  Honestly that will probably not be worked on in detail until the next version when we take the time and overhaul the CSM.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: macieksoft on February 16, 2018, 01:53:59 PM
I dont have procedure, i just flip the switches ;-P


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: macieksoft on February 17, 2018, 11:02:14 AM
Just made some tests with actual release and checked that.
AUTO is working fine.
MANual is not so much. I did a test so i put one radiator in full sun and another one in full shadow and started to play with switches.

At AUTO cooling works well. At MANual it gets quite hot. Difference between radiator outlet seems about 10-15 *F between the sunny and the shadow one when using manual switching. So there is actual difference, but its quite small.
Even when using shadow one it seems to not be cooling things very well when in manual.

As soon as i switch to AUTO it drops a lot and cool things very well.


Title: Re: ECS Issues
Post by: rcflyinghokie on February 19, 2018, 05:55:28 PM
Without diving into the code I cannot explain that, probably isnt completely ready to handle those situations :P