Meadville Space Center

Project Apollo - NASSP => Modeling => Topic started by: Swatch on March 09, 2006, 12:52:47 PM



Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 09, 2006, 12:52:47 PM
OK...the new boost cover is done.

Complete with better materials, and transparent windows. I also corrected a few corrupted portions of the mesh. I hope the windows look good, I think I may have added too much gold tint, but you guys tell me.

It just replaces the current one, so no adjustments necessary.

http://swatch.homeip.net/BoostCover.msh (http://swatch.homeip.net/BoostCover.msh)

(http://swatch.homeip.net/CMBPC.JPG)


Next on my list is a new SM with SIM bay and some interior for the A13 explosion.  I also hope to set it up for easy HG animation...I'm talking with missleman on the best way to do that.

After that, which could be many months away, I'll work on the LM or CM...your choice.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 09, 2006, 01:06:23 PM
I'll add it to CVS tonight unless anyone prefers the old mesh :).


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 09, 2006, 02:03:51 PM
Does it really use 21 textures?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on March 09, 2006, 03:47:39 PM
Congratulations Swatch. New mesh is beautifull. Thanks.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 09, 2006, 05:55:26 PM
no...it doesnt'....I must have forgotten to weed out the extra ones from importing the command module.   I'll correct that, don't CVS it yet, I'll get a corrected one up on the server.

To be honest...it doesn't use a single texture.....and I'm looking at it now, it has too many Materials too...this is my unedited one...I must have saved over the other.  I'll correct this.  Apologies.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 09, 2006, 07:24:46 PM
Alright...it's updated...go ahead and commit it...there should be no textures and only 7 materials now.

Don't forget to redownload it from my server.

http://swatch.homeip.net/boostcover.msh

Size should be about 537k.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: NoName on March 09, 2006, 07:56:59 PM
Phantastic work Swatch! Just looks like the real one :D

Hope we'll get the cover simulated for our 2D panels soon too. Bitmaps included already ;)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 09, 2006, 09:48:00 PM
BTW, at some point you may want to add the canards :). We'll need them eventually to fully simulate Apollo.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 09, 2006, 11:07:12 PM
Canards are modelled in there as their own seperate groups (left and right)

I'm one step ahead of ya! :lol:

Look through the mesh file and you'll see which group they are.


Title: You have permission to Drool...just not on me!
Post by: Swatch on March 10, 2006, 01:40:01 AM
Ok...I couldn't resist, You guys get a little tidbit of what I did tonight. I have finals all next week, so I won't get this done within the week, but I spent tonight getting all the basic stuff done.  Next comes the hard part.

Hope you guys like it!

(http://swatch.homeip.net/SM-Preview.JPG)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on March 10, 2006, 08:20:35 AM
Amazing!
you can identify propellant tanks, O2 tanks and the 2 fuel cells!
Should be a hard work...


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 10, 2006, 08:32:15 AM
Could you make the SPS a seperate mesh too? I'd like to add the gimballing to it.

Also you could make the interior tanks seperate meshes so we can add them when required (no point rendering them if they're invisible behind the side panel), and simulate the SM breaking up on re-entry :).

P.S. How many polygons is this mesh? I know the current SM is a lot, and slows Orbiter down significantly on low-end machines. It would be great if you could produce a low-res version too for slow PCs, even if just by using the automated polygon-reducing tools that most 3D modelling programs seem to have.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 10, 2006, 09:23:04 AM
rgr that movieman...I'd planned on making it in different flavors for just that reason. It's just easier for me to make the entire thing and then seperate it so that everything fits together nicely. I was also wondering what would be the best for the programmers to make it easily animated. If seperate meshes are what you need, I can do that.

Poly Count is still relatively low, I already took out a lot of them. There's definately still a lot that can be cut off though.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 10, 2006, 09:27:39 AM
Well, there's no reason to have less polygons than the current SM for the 'high-res' version, but it would be good if we could have a 'low-res' version too which was a lot more efficient and less detailed.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 10, 2006, 10:09:25 AM
Also I'm pretty sure the current SM isn't causing the slowdown to orbiter, the CM is actually a great deal more complicated than the SM, even so, there's a fair amount of polys.  You want to give me a ballpark range for polys in the Hi-res and Lo-Res versions?

I meant to ask what coordinate system you guys would like it alligned with.  Right now it's alligned with it's real coordinate system with the umbilical along the axis, however this offsets the RCS thrusters 7 degrees around the outside (as seen in overhead view.

Finally, if you really want to simulate breakup, I'll need to seperate the meshes out a lot, so would you perhaps want them all in a seperate folder or will that cause problems?

I figured I'd seperate it out like this:  (all coordinate systems relative to current SM coordinate system unless otherwise noted)

~Main Structure (not including access panels) with RCS and CM attach (1 mesh for both Hi and Lo Res)
~Seperate Access Panels for each Bay with attached hardware (6 panels for Hi-Res Version, 3 meshes for Lo-Res which wont allow access to the SPS propellent tanks, only the SIM bay and the Fuel cell bay, aka A13 explosion)
~SPS Tanks (3 meshes, one helium bottle, one sump tank, and one storage tank that can then be replicated and rotated 180 degrees to produce the oposing side)
~SPS Engine (1 mesh up to and including the gimble, this will be on its own coordinate system relative to the gimble
~High-Gain Antenna (1 mesh, this will also be on it's own coordinate system relative to it's attach-point)
~Bay 1 SIM bay on later missions (1 mesh, possible a second lower-res version if needed)
~Bay 4 Fuel Cells  (2 meshes, hi-res and one low-res exploded mesh for A13, if desired a second unexploded mesh can be created)
~EVA Light boom/antenna A17 (1 mesh)

Total: 19 meshes

High-Res (no interior-Apollos 7,9,10,11,12,13(unexploded),14): 9 meshes
High-Res (SIM Bay-Apollos 15,16,17+): 14 meshes
High-Res (Apollo 13): 13 meshes  (ironic huh?)
Lo-Res (no interior): 6 meshes
Lo-Res (SIM Bay): 7 meshes
Breakup on Entry: 23 meshes (tanks are cloned)

It's pretty complicated, but it'll be very versitile.  Additional failures can be simulated occuring in any one of the 6 bays, and people can make their own SIM package.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 10, 2006, 06:19:46 PM
I would say the upper limit for the CSM would be about the same number of polygons as we currently have.... not sure how many that is, but I think it's something like 60,000?

As for alignment, I'd guess we could go with the real coordinates and rotate the thruster positions appropriately. That will require a bit of work though.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 11, 2006, 06:07:34 PM
well...I have some more bad news for all you programmers...

The new SM is also corrected for size, so it's about 3/4 foot shorter than the current one along with other discrepencies, shown here.

(http://swatch.homeip.net/SM-discrepencies.jpg)

The only good thing to come of this is that it may solve your issues with control and center of mass...or it might make them worse, I'm not sure.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: NoName on March 11, 2006, 11:08:10 PM
:shock: Looks amazing :D Great idea to simulate the SPS engine gimbaling. Can't wait to see the stuff in orbiter ;)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 12, 2006, 12:48:23 AM
Hmm, ok my SIM bay is gonna be really lame.  I'm bad at non-specific details like that (if you don't know what i mean by non-specific details, look in the CM, it's full of cool stuff like that)

Perhaps somebody with more artistic skills than I at meshing can put together a realistic SIM bay in the future, but for now it's gonna be pretty basic looking.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 12, 2006, 09:50:26 AM
I'd go for realism over convenience: should only take a couple of days to get all the mesh offsets correct.

Particularly if we do end up with a lower-res mesh than the current one even with more detail: that'll help frame-rates, since Orbiter seems to have a hard time pushing vertices. My new graphics card is 3x faster than the old one, but NASSP runs at exactly the same frame-rate in Orbiter.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 14, 2006, 02:44:42 PM
GREAT news... The core of the SM is only 7000 polys....I was expecting this to be the largest mesh and was predicting almost 15000 polys but I managed to kill off a large number of the extras without hurting it's looks.  Also I checked it, the current SM mesh is over 41000 polys....YUCK!! I'll definately come up short of that.  

Ok, the link is up, all you have with this one is something that you can use to correct the height offsets.  I'll get the RCS pods up next so you can start reorienting the thrusters.

(http://swatch.homeip.net/SM-core.JPG)

http://swatch.homeip.net/SM-core.msh


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 14, 2006, 04:49:07 PM
RCS Pods are up...they have a fair amout of polys (~17000) but I redid them so that they only had a third the polys of their originals.  (there were 36000 polys locked up in the nozzles of the old RCS)  Sooner or later I figured we'd split these into 4 seperate pods to allow more versitility, aka an RCS Quad Failure/explosion and breakup on entry.  For the time being, this should give you coders enough fits with the offsets, so enjoy.  The mesh is on the same coordinates as the Core.  All you have to do is call the mesh in at the same relative location as the Core and everything will line up.

Next comes the gimbling engine....

(http://swatch.homeip.net/SM-RCS.JPG)

http://swatch.homeip.net/SM-RCS.msh


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 14, 2006, 05:35:46 PM
Ok, last one of the day guys..... The SPS!

This one tops out at around 3000 polys.  With only the outer panels to go, I'm pretty sure the new SM will pale in comparison. Even in Hi-Res mode with all tanks and bays it should be at worst comparable to what we use now.

This one is a different coordinate system.  It's all centered at the point of gimbling (which you see in the video at the bottom).  This should allow the animators to just rotate the mesh to make it gimbel.

The approximate offsets to make it line up with the SM mesh are as follows.

Z-axis (up and down):  -2.465
Y-axis (would be axis going through Hatch and Umbilical):  0.125
X-axis (goes through the yaw thrusters on the CM):  -0.017

No pretty picture, but I have a video for you of what it might look like to gimble the engine in space.  (I cheated and did it in Gmax)

http://swatch.homeip.net/Gimble%20Engine.wmv

http://swatch.homeip.net/SM-SPS.msh


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 14, 2006, 07:28:30 PM
I'll have a go at getting this working over the next week or two.

One thing we will need to add is a SM DLL to stick the appropriate meshes together, but that would be a good idea anyway.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 14, 2006, 09:14:07 PM
So I have one of the RCS thrusters pointing almost directly at the umbilical: is that correct?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 14, 2006, 09:56:17 PM
negative.... the umbilical is along the main axis, while the thruster is offset by 7 degrees around the SM.  This should offset it just enough to clear the umbilical....although in a vacuum I can easily see the plume brushing against the umbilical.  The RCS panels should also align with the interior sector deviders.  It should look like this.

(http://swatch.homeip.net/SM-3-view.jpg)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 14, 2006, 10:07:15 PM
Yeah, that's what I mean: in a vacuum the exhaust will spread out a lot and much of it will hit the umbilical.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 14, 2006, 11:08:54 PM
This occured to me as well, but it's in the 'blueprints' that way.  Also check out these pictures, they didn't seem to worry too much about it....

(http://users.telenet.be/kosmonet/ruimtevaart/10075514.jpg)

(http://images.ksc.nasa.gov/photos/1969/high/KSC-69P-0247.jpg)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 15, 2006, 01:00:27 PM
OK, this should be all you need for the initial SM support, in the following zip file are all the panels.  Same basic idea as the RCS pods...if you call these meshes in at the same coordinates as the SM-core mesh then everything will line up.  All the panels are seperate meshes and hold around or less than 1000 polys each.  After this, I'll start working on the HGA, the A13 explosion, the SIM bay, and the propellant tanks, in that order.  Those last few aren't very important though.

http://swatch.homeip.net/SM-Panels.zip


Just tell me if you need anything changed.

PS. The reason the RCS is a different mesh is because I plan on doing a lower res mesh for them.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 16, 2006, 08:04:28 PM
One issue I thought of today: if the RCS isn't lined up with the Orbiter axes, then it's not going to work properly in translation modes. Forward/back will work, but if you try to go left or right you'll also go up and down, and vice-versa.

Other than that, I have the basic mesh in Orbiter, but it still needs a lot of testing.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 16, 2006, 09:43:44 PM
I thought about that, but I'm not sure how it was handled in real life, I can verify that the offset exists, but I'm not sure how it affected handling.

I'm assuming that the slight angle was just corrected for by the pilot or computer, after all, they were good at what they did.

Has anyone run across some code in the computer that doesn't work well with the current RCS setup?  I know some of the auto-control programs have been giving people problems.  I wonder if the computer is trying to correct for the offset that doesn't exist, so when it calculates what to fire, it creates unpredicted errors.


EDIT:

There is not a single mention of this offest causing any sort of problems, but I agree with you, it would have to have some effect.  I wish there were some way to talk to someone who actually flew the damn thing.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 23, 2006, 11:30:43 AM
BTW, I checked in the meshes a while ago, I'll probably check in a preliminary version of the code tonight unless I find major bugs.

For the moment the RCS thrusters are in the right place, but still point in the same direction as the old thrusters: that will need to be fixed.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on March 24, 2006, 01:45:15 AM
now that the meshes are done, I'm working on retexturing/texturing them (without much luck as of yet)  

Also, I came across an interesting occurance....

When you abort shortly after liftoff (Mode 1A), the Astronauts pick a new seating arrangement....

(http://swatch.homeip.net/wehaveaproblem.JPG)

Also i don't think I can get the LES to release from the capsule...but that's not nearly as funny as the floating hatch and phasing astronauts! :lol:  :lol:


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Redburne on March 24, 2006, 03:58:39 AM
Looks like massive deceleration trauma ...  :D

And who needs explosive bolts on the hatch if an astronaut's head can do the same?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: NoName on March 24, 2006, 10:34:30 PM
Yeah that's a bug I noticed month ago. Also the exhaust flames have to be fixed (correct positions). Would ne very great to see that fixed :D


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on March 29, 2006, 05:18:27 AM
Hi apollo fans!
Got obviously the same bug as you concerning wrong meshes following abort mode I.
I do confirm also that the LET fails to automatically jettison after abort fire.
Worse, the jettison is also impossible using the manual switches.
 :cry:
So the abort mode IA/B/C are quite simple in virtual Apollo: push the abort pb and wait for crashing on ground! :shock:


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on March 29, 2006, 07:36:16 AM
Did you arm the pyros (and ELS?) before the abort?

Haven't had time to check in the changes because I had horrid flu for the last few days.

P.S. To be honest, I'm surprised the abort stuff works at all, since it's almost completely untested!


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on March 29, 2006, 08:22:38 AM
Quote
Did you arm the pyros (and ELS?) before the abort?


Affirm.
I guess all my systems are configured properly cause I spent the week to rewrite the AOH prelaunch procedures.

BTW another wrong behaviour concerns abort mode II.
As soon as you have pushed the abort pb (that takes place of the THC counterclockwise action), the CSM separates from the LV but the SPS ignites automatically. According to documentation, this is wrong. The SPS doesn't ignite automatically in any abort mode. Separation is manually performed by thrusting +X with THC.
For the moment, the solution would be in separating from LV by using normal covered switch.
Also, once landed, main chutes doesn't released automatically.
And main release switch seems to be inopperative, too.
Quote
P.S. To be honest, I'm surprised the abort stuff works at all, since it's almost completely untested

By the days of 6.4.2, all worked well.
May be some changes have destroyed the functionality a bit, in 7 beta.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 02, 2006, 01:31:39 PM
Ok, I have SM (SwatchModule :wink: ) ver. 2.0 into orbiter and offsets corrected.  Fair warning though, there are some odd material colors I know, I'll work on them sometime.  For instance....

(http://swatch.homeip.net/BlueBoy.JPG)

Who knew Fuel Cells were blue?    :roll:

Also the SM now has two flavors of RCS thrusters a hi and lo res...but they're not implemented...only hi res is set up right now, but both meshes will be in CVS.


Other things that you'll be getting when CVS goes back up are...

Redone Crew meshes and offsets....I fixed the offset problem with the abort (not for the hatch and camera though)  The Crewmembers have real eyes now and not a plain face.  at the cost of about 50 more polys we have one browneyed LMP, a greeneyed CDR, and a blueeyed CMP.  It always freaked me out how they didnt' have eyes.  They also fit in their couches better.

Redone CM mesh.  Mostly interior work here, the couches ACTUALLY FIT the crewmembers, the THC is properly rotated and not vertical anymore, the mainpanel texture in VC is more realistic (not cut off at edges) and all the CM's are the same shape (evidently the CMb mesh thought the CM was .25 meters taller...looked funky)

Cleaned up BoostCover mesh.  Mostly just to make the boostcover and CM fit with the SM umbilical.

other than that, I just want to say I caught myself admiring these in orbiter....don't want to sound stuck up or anything...but this is the first time I've ever been satisfied by my meshes (SM exterior,CM and Crew...the SM interior stuff needs lots of work)  I can't wait to upload these and see what you guys think.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 02, 2006, 02:13:25 PM
BTW, one oddity is that the umbilical arm from the SM goes through the CM when they seperate: I don't know whether there's any way to animate that.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 02, 2006, 02:18:26 PM
probably is, but I wouldn't know where to put the code.  I can figure out the animation part, but I don't know where you'd put that code


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 02, 2006, 02:28:58 PM
It would just go in the SM DLL in the timestep code: save away the angle relative to the SM, and if it hasn't fully moved back then increase the angle by some multiple of the time since the last timestep.

You'd also need to save it in the scenario file and set the animation to the correct angle when the scenario is re-loaded.

Actually, you might be able to use the animation support in Orbiter itself, and just set the animation up when the SM is created (e.g. rotate through ninety degrees over one second, or whatever).


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on April 03, 2006, 04:58:21 AM
Quote
The Crewmembers have real eyes now and not a plain face. at the cost of about 50 more polys we have one browneyed LMP, a greeneyed CDR, and a blueeyed CMP


Great news!
While I'm a greeneyes guy, I'll take place of the CDR! 8)

sounds like a great work Swatch. Can'"t wait to test it.
Unfortunately cvs is still down for me :(


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Eddie on April 03, 2006, 05:36:10 PM
CVS Checkout is working here, just got the whole 185 MB package! Still have Mr Clean's evil brothers as crewmen though,LOL

eddie :)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 03, 2006, 08:55:39 PM
CVS still down for me.   :cry:

But if you want to see something REALLY funny, detach the SM from the CM and check it out.   I corrected the mesh offsets when I animated the umbilical (yes it's done!  :D ), but if you have the new SM, you can get a big kick outta it's actions.

BTW, movieman, I'm ecstatic that you did the SM class, so don't think that I'm complaining...it was just very amusing!  :lol:


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 04, 2006, 11:06:32 AM
OK, if I ever get to commit this stuff, my next meshing product will be furthering the CM interior, maybe even a complete revamp with VC qualities.

I plan on seperating the current CM interior from the current CM mesh and using it as a lowres version for viewing from the outside, then making a seperate high-res interior that will be loaded when in VC mode.  Hopefully I'll get around to complete panels as well but this will require making the new textures.  First it will just be the panels, no switches and only rudimentary instruments, but it'll be something to start from.

This is a low-priority project for me, but it'll be something to work on when C++ gives me headaches.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: orbiterfan on April 04, 2006, 04:23:19 PM
Swatch: You may now commit your CSM work as the CVS is now working again!


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 04, 2006, 04:31:26 PM
YAY!!!  :D  :D  :D

Spawn of Mr. Clean.... BEGONE!!!!


I'm uploaded...hope you enjoy a bug free better quality experience!


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on April 04, 2006, 04:45:52 PM
Hey ive been trying to contact you on IM but you are never on.

Is your AIM contact correct?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Tschachim on April 05, 2006, 04:35:52 AM
Hi Swatch,

your new stuff arrived well here, thanks a lot!  :)  :)
Dump question: The SM has no textures at the moment (US flag etc.)?

Your VC plans sound very well, keep up your great work! :)

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 05, 2006, 07:00:58 AM
yes, the flag was overlooked at the moment because I need to create te texture, along with a new texture for the RCS panels.  I'm not to adept at creating something from scratch, so this has taken me a bit.  I'll have the flag in there soon enough, but I don't know when I'll get the panel Details up.  I also don't want to lose the panel contrast that shows up now, the real SM didn't have panels all the same color.  The problem with the previous SM texture is that it was lacking in detail and it was afull wrap that when I added it to my mesh, it didn't fit right, so it'll require new textures.

glad to hear it works for you!  How's the Animation work?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Eddie on April 05, 2006, 09:53:03 AM
Quote from: Swatch
CVS still down for me.   :cry:

But if you want to see something REALLY funny, detach the SM from the CM and check it out.   I corrected the mesh offsets when I animated the umbilical (yes it's done!  :D ), but if you have the new SM, you can get a big kick outta it's actions.

BTW, movieman, I'm ecstatic that you did the SM class, so don't think that I'm complaining...it was just very amusing!  :lol:


Well, only a couple of things I noticed when you seperate the SM and CM, the SM starts to spins like a bullet, and then seperates at the speed of a bullet,lol Where does it get all that speed from, or how much thrust is it using to slow down so fast? Its out of sight in seconds! If during the flight of Apollo 13, it had slowed (or picked up speed) like that after sep, how would they have had time to take pics of the damaged bay?

Its confusing a bit to me, but probably something simple, as always,lol I do like the looks of the area the CM is attached to on the SM, looks great, nice detail instead of the sort of plain look it had before, not that I'm complaining about anything that is making up this project!:)

Eddie


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 05, 2006, 10:24:47 AM
Quote
If during the flight of Apollo 13, it had slowed (or picked up speed) like that after sep, how would they have had time to take pics of the damaged bay?


Hint: the RCS on the SM fires until it runs out of fuel or the fuel cells run out of power.

Notice anything there relevent to Apollo 13 :) ?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Eddie on April 05, 2006, 10:55:54 AM
Hadn't thought about that movieman,lol I knew there had to be some reason this was happening that I had no understanding of! Should be fun writing up the readme file on all these technical details that most people don't know much about, thats for sure! :)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 05, 2006, 11:37:49 AM
BTW, it's quite possible that it's moving too fast anyway: I think I just cut the mass and moment of inertia data from the old config file and they may well be wrong.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Eddie on April 05, 2006, 01:14:43 PM
movieman, I wouldn't go so far as to say you have done something wrong with this, far from it! I'm just trying to understand whats going on with the relative speeds here during separation.  You guys have been working on this for so long, plus the background research you have done, is light years ahead of what I know about all the systems involved with Apollo.

I guess I base it on visual perception, not sure how else to put it. But, as you have pointed out, each part of the overall systems are programmed, or being programed, and behave pretty much as they should, or hopefully they will at least! Like say, after  TLI, you go to dock with the LEM, still attached to the SIVB. Seperation speed between the SM/CM and the SIVB is much slower, but I gather, that the RCS is working a different program at that time, as compared to just before re-entry, so it will be at a different speed as the RCS follows its specific program during different parts of the flight. Hopefully I'm beginning to understand anyway,lol

So, as you can see, I got a whole lot of studying to do yet, but I got more time then money, so it will work out!:)

Eddie


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 07, 2006, 10:29:26 AM
Enjoy a new set of Panel Meshes for the SM along with some new texturing!  :D

Also, I was wondering if anyone had any comment on the replacements of Mr.Clean's Hellspawn....  Are they aligned right when they're in the capsule?  I've had them show up with their heads in the couches a couple times...has anyone else?   Also, do the eyes work for everyone?  Actually, has anyone found any problems with the new mesh offsets in general?

Also, as soon as my copy of Virtual Apollo gets here (should be today...on sale from Amazon for 15 dollars!!!) I'll be able to start on the CM interior.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for improving any of the Apollo Spacecraft parts?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on April 08, 2006, 02:21:08 AM
Quote from: Swatch
Also, as soon as my copy of Virtual Apollo gets here (should be today...on sale from Amazon for 15 dollars!!!) I'll be able to start on the CM interior.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for improving any of the Apollo Spacecraft parts?


Virtual Apollo is an awesome book, believe me. Got it a couple of months ago. The only downside is that most renderings are missing dimensions of the parts shown.

Swatch, I am not sure if you already changed it, I have no possibility to do an CVS update, but I think the window in the CM hatch in RL was round, and in NASSP it is square, so maybe you can improve that. That's the first thing I can think of.  :wink:


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 08, 2006, 09:23:17 AM
that stupid hatch...I keep forgetting to mess with it...thanks for remindingme Ford! :)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 08, 2006, 02:20:16 PM
Ok, first picture to whet your whistles...I have the interior surfaces done, now it's on to detail.


(http://swatch.homeip.net/VC1.JPG)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Eddie on April 08, 2006, 04:53:17 PM
Not much to checkout until the Update part of CVS starts working again Swatch, as has been pointed out already. But one thing in the CM that might be touched up is in the vc, the rendezvous window has a gap above it, not sure about the rightside window, but it sticks out real bad on the leftside.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 08, 2006, 06:03:49 PM
all part of my evil plan to take over....the CM!!!  :lol:

The further i get into the CM, the more I need to correct...we'll see how much I can get away with.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on April 08, 2006, 07:24:30 PM
If there is enough polys to spare may I suggest having the DSKY modeled in so that you can use it in 3D mode?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 08, 2006, 07:37:23 PM
Well, in VC mode there should be plenty of polygons available to use. Even using 50k polygons for the VC control panel would probably be OK, and 20k should run fine. That's a lot of polygons for maybe 100 switches, a few buttons and a panel.

Of course if Orbiter had better vertex handling, even 100k should be no problem for a modern graphics card...

One issue for the VC cockpit is actually getting it lit. We should probably set up the materials so it's always lit.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 10, 2006, 09:55:56 PM
CM is almost ready to go to Paint Shop (in more ways than one  :lol: )  Just a little bit more meshing to do...

Ok, so for a true VC, the panels need to be legible....for the main panel, the only way to get this resolution is to use at least 3 1024x1024 textures or a couple of 2048 textures... are these sizes completely unreasonable? or can I go ahead and start texturing the panels?

I put them into orbiter on my machine and didn't see much of an issue....I managed to get the 2048 textures to be 2 meg files minimum.  I'm not very knowlegable about the performance side of textures, so any help would be appreciated.

BTW, I'm figuring that we'll be looking at 3 to 5 2048 textures or upwards of 9 to 12 1024 textures.   My test had 3 2048 textures and one 1024 loaded with no problems.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on April 11, 2006, 06:10:43 AM
Well, from my experience with the Taurus-Littrow Project, it currently uses three 2048 px textures, which causes a small reduction on the FPS, but I use a GeForceII GTS 32 MB card, so I think this shouldn't be an issue for newer cards. Just my 2 cents.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 11, 2006, 07:28:33 AM
Put in big textures and an option to completely disable the VC panel. I have 256MB of video RAM so a few textures aren't going to hurt, but those who are struggling with 32MB cards will suffer badly.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Tschachim on April 11, 2006, 08:14:04 AM
Quote from: Swatch
Who knew Fuel Cells were blue?

Look here for some cool pictures: http://www.spaceaholic.com/apollo_artifacts.htm

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 11, 2006, 08:00:50 PM
Those are awesome Tschachim!!!!  I see a little blue!!!   8)

The CM is currently topping out around 15000 polys...not bad if I say so.
Some parts are less detailed, but overall there is a more-detailed feel along with much cleaner lines.

Alright...the update on the VC is that I have a ToggleSwitch model that I managed to get down to a lowly 66 polys (with guards).  So if I modelled EVERY switch in the CM I'd add 33000 polys....luckily, I'm not modelling EVERY switch, so it seems that a VC, while only for those with the computer power to handle it, is fundamentally feasible.  Your interior poly count would be on the order of 70000 polys...which is the current order of the CM, SM and SIVB combined.  The Panel Textures (almost all the panels in the CM) seem to be a reasonable fit onto three 2048 textures.

I'll try to get the materials and Textures done soon and place at least one version of the CM into CVS sometime over the next week (there are 4 CM's of which two require remodelling and two require retexturing).

For now however, please return to your day to day activities.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on April 12, 2006, 09:17:30 AM
Hi Swatch.
Have you thought about the problem with darkness?
depending of the sun orientation, vc is sometime totally black. Is this an issue for you?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 12, 2006, 01:48:47 PM
I'm looking at how they handle this in the other VC's as well as seeing if I can have the panels generate their own light.

EDIT:

Good news...Orbiter has a somewhat obscure mesh file function that allows you to define the material as not using the default lighting. so essentially it simulates interior lighting.

This was the functionality test I did a couple days ago on the old CM.  The new CM looks even better however I havent' decided how to pull off the VC switches completely yet.

(http://swatch.homeip.net/VCTEST1.JPG)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: edmendduke on April 14, 2006, 06:08:46 PM
Beautiful... Now if I can only get a better video card... (Hopefully, the pilot will "learn" grip the LHC during the launch "just in case"  :lol: )


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on April 14, 2006, 08:29:44 PM
Well to start I only suggest you go for the DSKY interface for the time beging.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 14, 2006, 08:46:49 PM
Looking good so far.

To fully support it we'll need seperate non-DDS textures for the mission timer, event timer, caution and warning and DSKY display, holes where the FDAI balls are (hopefully we can rotate them independently of the panel), and 3D gauges so we can move pointers.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 14, 2006, 11:42:43 PM
I just want you guys to know that was a very early Proof of Concept...the first mesh that will be committed won't have any VC capability, it'll just be replacement for the current CM and to see how well everyones computer handles the baseline CM.   My eventual goal will be to have two seperate interiors (one VC, one normal) and one exterior mesh.  But for now, I need feed back on the baseline CM when I get it uploaded.  Right now I'm dealing with problems of the normals being reversed because I used the mirror tool...I can't believe I forgot about that glitch!


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 15, 2006, 01:02:48 PM
More Mouthwatering....

(http://swatch.homeip.net/VC2.JPG)

There is still A LOT to be done...let's just say there's a reason I'm showing you that side of the CM.   :lol:

EDIT:  Ok, so it wasn't so bad...

(http://swatch.homeip.net/VC3.JPG)

EDIT EDIT:  And one more...I apologize for the size of these pics....

(http://swatch.homeip.net/VC4.JPG)

Yes, I have Panel 10 done (panel in center of 3rd image), if you want it Moonwalker, I can send it to you.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Eddie on April 15, 2006, 05:42:49 PM
Looking great swatch!! :)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on April 16, 2006, 04:43:32 AM
Hey, great stuff Swatch. Its really getting "cozy" now inside the CM VC :)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: gimp1992 on April 16, 2006, 08:35:58 AM
Man that is Amazing! Just  a thought I don't beleive they wore the yellow booties into the spacecraft.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 16, 2006, 10:06:39 AM
probably not....but I'm not messing with the crew any more than I have to (and I already had to make their legs longer).  The crew mesh is a tangle of over 30000 vertices that don't all fit together.

I commited the VC mesh and textures last night but I didn't replace the old ones just yet.  If you would like to test out the VC, just remove the "-VC" from the new files and overwrite the old ones.  I'd like everyone to test it out and see how badly it affects performance on their machines before I go to the next step of modeling switches.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 16, 2006, 10:43:35 AM
160fps in a 1024x768 window. I'd check it in: if you want, add a low-res version with smaller textures.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 16, 2006, 11:04:33 AM
Actually, note that there are _two_ CM meshes, one which has a 'burnt' exterior after re-entry.

So to avoid duplicating work you really need to create a seperate control panel mesh which can be added to either CM mesh and disabled completely in 'low res' mode.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 16, 2006, 11:56:00 AM
yea, there are actually 4...The eventual plan will be to set up the exterior meshes (4 in total, one burned shute deployed, one burned non-deployed, and the same two unburned) and two interiors that will fit snugly into them (one lowres for general useage and view from outside ship, and one Hires for the VC).  That's why I didn't upload and replace yet, what you have are just the test cases and eyecandy for those who wish to mess with them.  I'm still about a week off from getting the stuff inplace to begin commiting and coding the new mesh offsets.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on April 16, 2006, 12:12:19 PM
Ho swatch!
That's really wonderfull. Can't wait to test it!
Am I dreaming or is there really the ordeal box on the upper left handside (panel 13) :D  :?:
A good base for dseagrav to wire it :wink:


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 16, 2006, 12:15:35 PM
BTW, are you going to make each switch a seperate mesh group? If so, it should be fairly easy to wire them up to the ToggleSwitch code just by giving the switch code the appropriate mesh ID to animate.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on April 16, 2006, 01:11:18 PM
I've justed tested the new VC and it's amazing. During launch, with cam shake it's a great feeling of really being inside the CM. Thans alot for that Swatch :D
For information, I got about 28 to 35 fps on launchpad and 85 fps during the launch. Largely enough for me! grapphic is very fluid. Nothing to complain as far as I'm concerned.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on April 16, 2006, 01:14:23 PM
Just forgot to mention a slight issue. The misalignment of the line of sight. It's just like I was sitting 50 cm below the other crew members :shock:
I felt like being Mr Lovelace in the Tv "wild wild west" :lol:


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 16, 2006, 07:05:09 PM
movieman:  The only catch is that orbiter doesn't mesh groups on the order of 200 and above so it crashes...I was gonna have one switch mesh and then replicate it in different places.  all you need to do then is define each switch as a different meshhandle and assign the same mesh file to it.  Theoretically this means orbiter will only load the mesh file once and then replicate it, saving the resources you're loading.  Then to animate, you just manipulate different mesh handles....but we'll see, that's not going to be easy.

Christophe:  Line of Sight is left over from the previous versions of the CM....I'm not gonna mess with that much at the moment, but if movieman or one of the other programmers want to slip that correction into one of their commits, that'd be great...if you want a really good view go to the rendevous cam (Number 9) and zoom your FOV out.  That's just above true eye level.


Title: So many SwitchGuards...So few polys....
Post by: Swatch on April 16, 2006, 10:49:39 PM
Ok, so I decided to do the main panel's switch guards to see what kind of polys we're talking....total for main panel....7,000 new polys...That sounds like a lot...but it didn't even touch my frame rate...
(http://swatch.homeip.net/VC5.JPG)

I also considered...in VC we won't necessary need the astronauts since you're the astronaut...plus they'll probably get in the way...so if we get rid of astronauts in VC mode, then we gain >30,000 polys.  That's plenty for any VC capability we're talking about.

PS...dseagrav...what's up with the error in the corner?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Tschachim on April 17, 2006, 11:43:38 AM
Hi Swatch,

it's really cool to see the VC progress, please keep up your great work!  :)  :)

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: ADT on April 18, 2006, 07:30:50 AM
Wow  :shock:  that VC is looking amazing! Guess I can hold you guys responsible for me having to buy a new graphics card!  :lol:

On a serious note,( I apoloise for the n00b question) but how would I go about testing this new mesh? I have done a CVS update and cannot seem to find any clues!

Regards

Alex


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 18, 2006, 08:30:54 AM
Quote
Guess I can hold you guys responsible for me having to buy a new graphics card!


A new card won't really help: it's Orbiter's vertex-processing that limits frame-rates, not the graphics card.

My new card is 3x faster than the old one, but Orbiter frame-rates are pretty much identical.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: ADT on April 18, 2006, 09:15:39 AM
Thanks movieman, that certainly explains a lot!

Unfortunately I still cant locate these new meshes. Is anyone able to point me in the right direction?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 18, 2006, 02:44:36 PM
CVS anonymous is probably still down...if it's still pooped when I get home I'll upload the meshes to a place where you all can get them, but I'm not held responsible for any installation problems.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 18, 2006, 08:02:45 PM
http://swatch.homeip.net/Sat5CM-VC.zip

For those of you who want to see it, there ya go...just unzip and replace the correct files, but I'm not responsible if something doesn't work because I didn't have much time to test if this method of getting them works.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Eddie on April 18, 2006, 11:38:53 PM
Thanks Swatch, they look great installed! Only thing is, the mesh have to be renamed is all.  Make a backup of these files in the Project Apollo mesh folder-

sat5Cmp
SAT5CREW
Sat5CM

Rename the mesh files in your download to match these originals, and put them in, letting them overwrite the originals. Put the 3 dds files in the Project Apollo texture folder just as they are, and everything works fine! And the astronauts do have eyes with color,lol Although I still get the impression by looking at them, that they would rather be doing something else then fly with me! :D

Eddie


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: ADT on April 19, 2006, 02:00:09 AM
Thanks Swatch, that VC is truly awesome. Runs fine! :)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on April 20, 2006, 06:36:23 AM
Hey Swatch,

if you find the time, maybe you can try to model the antennas for the CSM lunar sounder configuration that was on Apollo 17. I mentioned this earlier in this thread:
http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=224&start=0

You also find a more detailed view also of the housing/basement of the antennas in the following document on page 11:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a17/A17OTM53-72.PDF

It would be way cool if we could deploy these three antennas on the CSM! I am still working on the SIM bays instruments and Taurus-Littrow Valley.

Thanks for looking at it. BTW the VC looks fantastic :)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 20, 2006, 06:46:22 AM
oh yea...that won't take but 20 minutes.  Would you prefer me just add them to the SIMBay mesh since it somewhat the same deploy, or do you want it a seperate mesh?  (this question is for movieman as well since he has done most of the coding for mesh implementation)


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 20, 2006, 08:31:25 AM
Ideally there would be one bay with mission-specific payloads.

BTW, how was the bay opened? Presumably they blow off a panel with a switch somewhere?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 20, 2006, 11:30:29 AM
Hmmm that's a very good question....I couldn't begin to tell you and I haven't run across it in my CM studies...lemme look at the A15 Flight Journal

Quote
And also, prior to Lunar Orbit Insertion, the crew will be jettisoning the door on the Scientific Instrument Module [SIM] of the Service Module, exposing the cameras and other sensors to the lunar environment.

(http://history.nasa.gov/ap15fj/fplan/3-076.gif)



Also an interesting little tidbit...

"After inhibiting those thruster jets that might impinge upon the SIM bay,"


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Eddie on April 20, 2006, 12:24:22 PM
I wondered how they jettisoned that too movieman, as far as what switch in the panel was used.  Had me wondering about the release of the satellite, plus how did they start the cameras when they took photos of the surface? Did the panels in the CM change much depending on what was required for the flights?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 24, 2006, 04:08:46 PM
Not much to report on the VC, but I do have all but 2 panels done for toggle guards (those D-Ring things beside every Toggle Switch) along with the Main panel done with the exception of Rotary Switchs.  Once I get the initial meshing done, I'm going to slip this project to the side until the LEM is in better shape (which dseagrav seems to be doing a fine job of!  8) ) and the optics are done.  Meshing the VC is easy...programming it will require a couple of talented programmers working together and right now those programmers are needed elsewhere, but in time, a full VC is a very real possibility.  The one thing I will say though is that it will be nice being in a "realistic" and clean VC with the new textures.  I might try to get the DSKY working like was requested as a bit of prep for working on the VC.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on April 24, 2006, 05:33:43 PM
Just getting the basics going, like the DSKY and mission timer displays, would be a good start: that should just be a matter of updating textures whenever we're in VC mode.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 25, 2006, 03:21:32 PM
Ok...I did some side projects these past couple hours....I got the hatch redone so that it has a seperate interior view and also I cleaned out a lot of the offsets in saturnmesh.cpp and sat5mesh.cpp.   These were left over from when the meshes were all centered on their own coordinate systems.  The new meshes that I'm doing are all relative to their respective parent coordinate systems (i.e. SM, CM, LEM etc...) This eliminates the problem of having to modify 30 different offsets everytime something changes size etc.  I know movieman did a lot of the current offsets and I'm sure he knows what I'm talking about, I eliminated around 30 lines of code...not really important to performance, but much cleaner and nicer on the programmers.  Right now I'm working on splitting the CM into an interior mesh and an exterior mesh.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on April 28, 2006, 09:43:57 AM
Hi!
With new modules and cvs update I can't see Swatch new VC anymore...
Something I missed?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 28, 2006, 12:02:30 PM
Don't forget to overwrite the original files with their ******VC.msh counterparts.  If you updated, it probably merged or overwrote what you had before.  I still haven't commited the files as replacements yet because they are not in final form.  My next commit will no longer implement the old meshes in the modules.....if everything works out, then we can start removing some of those old meshes in the folder.

One of the big things I'm also doing is seperating the CM differently.
Both the Saturn V and the Saturn 1's will use the same CM mesh consisting of a combination of one of the 4 exterior meshes (CM, CM-Recov, CMB, CMB-Recov), one of the 4 hatch Meshes (CM-HC, CM-HO, CMB-HC, CMB-HO) and one of the 2 interior meshes (CM-Interior, CM-VC).  Along with this they will use the same Crew Meshes (CM-CMP, CM-CREW).   All the mesh offsets will be reset to zero, so only one MESH_DIR call will be needed for the entire CM, making it easier on programmers.

Once I can get everything building correctly (it works in orbit, but I can't get crawler project to build as of right now, so i can't test it on the ground) I'll commit the first round.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on April 28, 2006, 02:49:27 PM
Thanks Swatch;
I've had forgotten to rename the files :oops:


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on April 30, 2006, 10:36:13 PM
Ok...let me begin by apologizing to everyone out there with a slow connection.  I just uploaded the new CM files into the mesh folder, so the mesh folder is a bit bloated.  This will change once the next set of modules are released and the new meshes are shown to work.  Once that's done we'll be able to delete a huge portion of the old files in there relating to the CM.

Everyone keep an eye out for any mesh tricks or slips since this is a VERY large overhaul for the CM, so I fully expect some problems that I missed.

Movieman, I'm going to need you or Tschachim to change the view offsets for the current VC since we appear to be within the astronauts bellys and I'm not quite sure where you would prefer it.

Hope you all enjoy!

~Swatch

PS. for those of you without access to them....be patient, there are quite a few files, so until we get the kinks worked out before the next modules, I probably won't post them like I did the VC....then again, who knows!  :wink:


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 03, 2006, 07:21:48 PM
so I'm taking the lack of public outcry to imply that everything is kosher with what I commited?   If so, I'll move onto phase two....installing the master alarm switches and hopefully the DSKY in VC.  I need those master alarm switches...because that alarm is annoying and I don't like going out of VC while I'm working on it to push it sometimes.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on May 03, 2006, 08:06:14 PM
Been fine so far.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Christophe on May 04, 2006, 03:26:26 AM
Can't wait to see the DSKY working on VC :D
The new VC is one of the greatest improvement of the project for a long!
Thanks to you and keep up your work Swatch !


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: gimp1992 on May 04, 2006, 09:48:38 AM
Working great, look Fab. I also can't wait for a working DSKY keep up the good word it is much appreciated.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 04, 2006, 01:18:40 PM
First error found....kudos to movieman.

I don't have a hatch modelled for the exterior meshes, CM and CMB...as movieman put it...we're suffocating.  I'll update that when I get home.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on May 05, 2006, 05:33:52 AM
Another issue is that the control panel is always lit, but the rest of the cockpit isn't. Probably worth making the whole thing lit up.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 05, 2006, 06:40:46 AM
only if you're willing to come up with a texture for the entire cockpit.  If you use the FLAG 4 mesh command on a non textured surface, Orbiter crashes on loadup.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on May 05, 2006, 07:17:33 AM
Don't you just set an emissive color for the material?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 05, 2006, 08:20:06 AM
no, the only way Orbiter can override its default shading system (it doesn't allow multiple light sources) is to add "FLAG 4" at the header of the meshgroup.  If I understood correctly on the orbiter forums, it uses the same light source, but doesn't apply any of the shading techniques to that mesh group.  For untextured surfaces, the end result....when Orbiter actually draws them without giving an exception, is a completely white mesh group.  If you want to see what I mean, open the interior mesh in notepad and add "FLAG 4" to one of the untextured surfaces as shown...

Before:
Code:

MATERIAL 7
TEXTURE 0
GEOM 58 20 ; Left Equipment Bay

After:
Code:

MATERIAL 7
TEXTURE 0
FLAG 4
GEOM 58 20 ; Left Equipment Bay


Open that up in Orbiter, and if it doesn't crash look at your Left side.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on May 05, 2006, 04:36:40 PM
BTW, I've been meaning to mention: remember that the 'abort' modules all use the old SM mesh, they haven't been updated to use the new ones. So if you delete the old mesh when the new ones are complete, you'll break the abort code.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 06, 2006, 01:12:00 AM
Alright MM I'll take a look at that sometime....but for now I've pretty much finished my stuff until next week, and this weekend I won't be able to do much.

Stuff commited recently:

~Corrected the gassing of our orbinauts, CM now sealed ;)
~Seperate VC mesh is now fully implemented to allow lower res outside the CM and higher res in VC mode.
~Commited seperate meshes for the Probe, Extended and Retracted.  Code to show seperate meshes is not working yet...and I don't know why.
~Set up the LRV as a seperate working vessel (thanks to Movieman for getting that started for me!)  Expect Animations and Mesh corrections to come!
~Began prep-work on making two seperate LEVA walkers....but don't hold your breath for this one.
~unearthed and provided some quick corrections to meshes for the LC37 pads.  Probably a future project for me, unless OrbiterFan would care to do his magic on LC34 and LC37, which would be greatly appreciated!  :D


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Tschachim on May 19, 2006, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: Swatch
~Commited seperate meshes for the Probe, Extended and Retracted.  Code to show seperate meshes is not working yet...and I don't know why.

I just saw your changes in the code, you only add the probe meshes in the stage setup functions like SetCSMStage, but they are called only once to create the stage, so additionally you need to remove and add the docking probe in a suitable way if the state of the probe changes.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 19, 2006, 02:29:20 PM
Ahhhh a very good catch...I'll look into correcting that....also there was some question as to what would be the best thing to test if the probe is extended....I think what I put in there gives me the proper status of the probe, but I'm not sure.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 13, 2006, 10:43:47 AM
Hey guys....I need Apollo Command Module Interior Pictures. Anything that shows detail of the interior.  Drawings are ok, but not preferred.  If anybody out there could help me troll the internet for some, that'd be great.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: bart on June 13, 2006, 11:22:50 AM
Hi Swatch......

Just found this

http://www.apollosaturn.com/modeling/a9cm/a9cm.htm

hope it helps.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: bart on June 13, 2006, 11:36:27 AM
Here's a few more of it in action!

http://www.jrbassett.com/html/RNAInx05.html


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Tschachim on June 13, 2006, 03:45:21 PM
Coussini found that one a few months ago: http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10441053&wwwflag=2&imagepos=59

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Coussini on June 13, 2006, 03:48:45 PM
Quote from: Tschachim
Coussini found that one a few months ago: http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10441053&wwwflag=2&imagepos=59

Cheers
Tschachim


Yes... it's a great link. The photos are wonderful.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: bart on June 14, 2006, 05:01:10 PM
For some reason I can't post on the bugs list so I thought I'd put this here....

Just updated CVS and noticed some CSM VC changes but I've picked up on a couple of problems.

1. If you look to the left or right in the VC the helmet of the astronaut to your immediate left or right allows you to see straight through the spacecraft walls like a window.

2. When you select view 9 on the right hand side docking window you can pan the view around, but on the left window you can't pan at all. This is a great view by the way, nice touch, even better when you can pan on both windows.

3. The writing on the panel in the lower equipment bay view (5) is back to front, the telescope panel.

Other than this, good changes.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 14, 2006, 05:07:24 PM
yes...the first one has been a consistant problem.  It has to do with how we z-buffer the meshes (order we load them in)...it was working for a while, but recently it seems they got moved a bit.

The second one was intentional but if you want I can reset that to move normally.  I want everyone to know that when I get the 3d panels working, chances are you won't be able to click anything from that view.  i wanted to discourage that for use other than for docking.

Finally, the third one is because I was rushing to get something releasable together before I had to go home from work.  it'll be fixed eventually.  that was more a proof of concept thing that I did.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: bart on June 15, 2006, 10:09:16 AM
Hi Swatch, thought I'd do my bit as a good little Beta tester :wink:

Quote
I want everyone to know that when I get the 3d panels working, chances are you won't be able to click anything from that view. i wanted to discourage that for use other than for docking.


Agreed. So if we can't select anything from the docking window view, I'd prefer if we could pan in the left window too, maybe a self centering action like the others so if we use this window for docking then we will know when we're looking straight ahead.

Great job you are doing on the CM though. It's gonna be awsome once it's all up and running.

EDIT:
I've been dabbling with re-entry and although I can make it through the atmosphere, the drogues and mains don't open, not even with a manual selection. Are these modelled yet?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 15, 2006, 05:49:55 PM
I'll be outta town for the weekend....if you guys could get me more pics of the CM, that'd be great....I really need some of the Right Hand Equipment bay (on the Panel 3 side of the craft).  Also, any you can get me of the Tunnel would be great.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: brittany_Apollo8_fan on June 15, 2006, 07:26:21 PM
Are the windows going to be covered when the BPC is over the spacecraft?


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on June 15, 2006, 07:26:53 PM
Quote
Are these modelled yet?


Yes, but without the SECS and ELS enabled, they won't work...


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: bart on June 16, 2006, 06:42:25 AM
How are these two systems enabled?

I can't seem to find them in any documentation I have.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on June 16, 2006, 07:41:40 AM
If I remember correctly, SECS circuit breakers and pyros switches on the left panel, ELS to Auto on the main panel, left-hand side.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: bart on June 16, 2006, 10:56:01 AM
Ok I'll try it, thanks.

Update:-

Splashdown, you have to select ELS to auto and turn ELS logic on, not sure if this is the correct sequence but it will do until proper procedures are written and issued, just need to pop the hatch now :wink:


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 19, 2006, 03:04:56 PM
There will be a completely new top down rebuild of the CM mesh.  I'm running into enough problems during texturing that I'm just going to suck it up and redo it.  This one should be about as close to actual measurements as I can get.  I won't be commiting anything for a while though, so the CM that's there now is what you'll have for a while.


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: brittany_Apollo8_fan on June 21, 2006, 07:13:57 AM
Will it include coverings of the windows, when the Boost Protective Cover is in place?   Oh, and I hate seeing starts out the hatch window instead of Guenter Wendt.   :wink:


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 21, 2006, 11:23:58 AM
maybe, but there's an issue with that since the windows are within the 3.8 m clipping distance....that's the only reason why they arent covered right now....the mesh is blocking the windows, but Orbiter is clipping it.

~Swatch


Title: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 23, 2006, 09:54:41 PM
Correction...we're gonna proceed with what I have...there's too much to port over to the new mesh....I'm going to focus on the interior textures.  The CM is about 85% accurate in dimensions, compared to I'd say about 55% of the old one.  Still lots of room for improvement, but it's quite the daunting challenge without numerical dimensions of the interior.  So goal number one is to provide a visually stunning and visually believable interior.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on July 14, 2006, 12:01:24 PM
So any more screenshots to drool over?


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on July 17, 2006, 06:43:33 AM
nope, getting the two Launch Complexes together has taken a lot of my time.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on August 11, 2006, 06:27:43 PM
So we don't appear to have an apex cover mesh. As far as I can make out we have a CM with an apex cover, a CM without an apex cover and a burnt CM without an apex cover.

Would be a good idea to have an apex cover, a burnt apex cover, and the two CM meshes so we could build whatever version we need.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: BigDAS on August 11, 2006, 07:09:15 PM
So, it's just a matter of making a simple cone.

[EDIT] You mean something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajy3nZvCycI



Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on August 11, 2006, 11:07:37 PM
ok...there used to be one somewhere...lemme do some mesh digging.

actually the interior of the mesh is getting a redo (yes I changed my mind again) since Moonwalker is completing the CM panels.  I guess I can just rebuild the exterior as well (also using my pictures for better reference).


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on November 25, 2006, 03:45:28 PM
Interior has gotten some work on this Turkey-weekend....I'm debating showing screenies or maybe waiting until its done for a super surprise for y'all.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on November 25, 2006, 09:58:40 PM
Till it's done :) I want to be shocked!  :Excited432:


Title: Virtual Cockpit
Post by: Swatch on May 28, 2007, 02:49:10 AM
Ok, so i'm definately getting somewhere with the VC, but I also definately have some to go.  I'm going to continue to hide the progress unless you guys really want to see it, but let me just say, there are some things that are simply amazing as they come together, mostly thanks to Movieman's textures and many picture sources.

I do need to head over to orbiter's forum and get some suggestions on how to get all these beautiful textures without killing performance, so if any of you have answers to my questions, pop up over there and throw in your  :twocents22:.


Title: Re: Virtual Cockpit
Post by: Tschachim on May 28, 2007, 06:43:09 AM
Ok, so i'm definately getting somewhere with the VC, but I also definately have some to go.  I'm going to continue to hide the progress unless you guys really want to see it...

Well, I'd prefer perviews, not only but also for early bug fixing, but it's up to you, of course.  :)

...mostly thanks to Movieman's textures...

Moonwalker's textures.

I do need to head over to orbiter's forum and get some suggestions on how to get all these beautiful textures without killing performance, so if any of you have answers to my questions, pop up over there and throw in your  :twocents22:.

I didn't find your thread, can you post a link?

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 28, 2007, 11:29:46 AM
Crap....I'm sorry Movieman and Moonwalker....I've been doing that all the time for the last 1.5 years. :Duh!39835:

I might put together a few previews if you want.

Oh and the reason I didn't post a thread is I forgot my password last night....so I'll post it today.


Title: Re: Virtual Cockpit
Post by: mikaelanderlund on July 06, 2007, 10:41:49 AM
Ok, so i'm definately getting somewhere with the VC, but I also definately have some to go.  I'm going to continue to hide the progress unless you guys really want to see it, but let me just say, there are some things that are simply amazing as they come together, mostly thanks to Movieman's textures and many picture sources.

I do need to head over to orbiter's forum and get some suggestions on how to get all these beautiful textures without killing performance, so if any of you have answers to my questions, pop up over there and throw in your  :twocents22:.

Any news about your VC?

Mikael


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on July 06, 2007, 02:23:51 PM
The LEB is done, along with the Couches and Main panel.  The new hull/windows are almost complete (except no glass yet and a textureless hull).  I've meshed out the utilities/systems tunnel, but haven't textured it yet, and I have the rear of the equipment bay textured, but no equipment filling the space yet.  I'm working on texturing the Right, Left and Lower-Forward Equipment bays right now, but it's taking a while.  The tunnel area hasn't been touched yet.

That's my general status.   I'm not sure how far Moonwalker has come on his new auxillery textures, so I'm not working too hard on the main Left and Right panel areas.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: mikaelanderlund on July 06, 2007, 03:56:02 PM
Hi Swatch,

many thanks for the info :ThumbsUp432:.

Mikael


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 01, 2008, 03:24:28 AM
Hey guys... what's cookin?

I'm in the process of building up my new computer so I'll have access to all my ProjectApollo work that's been on my old computer's hard drives by the end of the week...and I'm looking forward to using some newfound Gmax knowlege (UVW unwrap) to get the VC rolling again.

New System:
AMD Athalon 64X2 4600
2Gb ram
Finely Tuned EVGA nVidia 8800GT
all in a case that has a jet engine on the side.... no joke, it's a 250 mm fan, and I LOVE IT!


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on May 01, 2008, 06:35:13 AM
That is some good news!

And that is QUITE a monster card you got in there!

Forgive my ignorance but I thought the VC stuff was done like almost a year ago? I assume that things just switched over to 2D for a bit?

Anyway looking forward to whatever you are able to do with that monster of a PC!


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 01, 2008, 11:11:36 AM
Nobody has seen my VC except one or two screenies I sent to Moonwalker and Tschachim.

The goal while building it has been accuracy.  It's been interesting to watch AMSO develop their VC in the period when I was unable to work on my own, so I fear some people will claim that I 'stole' some ideas from it...but in reality, we both came up with very similar solutions to the same problems from what I can tell.  During this one-year lull, I've learned UVW Unwrapping and transparent texturing as well as a few other small tricks, all of which I plan on using on the VC.  I find it really exciting that I get to hunker-down and try to finish this thing, especially now that the 2D panels are practically rock solid.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on May 01, 2008, 07:37:18 PM
Nobody is allowed to post defamatory Claims on Meadville and I believe the AMSO team is much more professional than that.

And likely many things will be duplicated. The VC is basically the same and you don't have the multitude of maps (Bump, Spec, Normal, Light,) to make much of a difference.

Well until OVP atleast but that will not have any kind of standardization till likely the next decade.

And I look forward to see what you can do with the VC. I assume that will branch out into completing the whole CSM before freeze time?


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 01, 2008, 07:45:41 PM
Nobody is allowed to post defamatory Claims on Meadville and I believe the AMSO team is much more professional than that.

It's not the AMSO team I'm worried about...

Quote
And I look forward to see what you can do with the VC. I assume that will branch out into completing the whole CSM before freeze time?

That's the goal!


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on May 01, 2008, 08:11:21 PM
Sounds good!  :ThumbsUp432:  :yes77:

Please post screenshots when you feel like it! Thank you!

And best of luck to you!


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 02, 2008, 01:55:04 PM
NO NO SCREENSHOTS FOR YOU!  /endSeinfeldReference    :D

I'm trying not to release screenies right now so that everybody has a WOW factor when they first get into the new VC...that and I'm an evil evil man.

On another note, I'm stuck doing hard drive juggling right now with my computer while I try to reinstall Windows without losing all my data.  And I'm having to mess with the ntfs partitions in linux, so its not exactly going swimmingly.  But I think I managed to backup all my data so far, and windows installations commences tonight.  Should have it all up and running by the end of the evening.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on May 24, 2008, 02:01:47 PM
It is the 24th

Progress?


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on May 24, 2008, 09:04:38 PM
Always progress...but not finished! :wink:


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on June 24, 2008, 06:37:52 PM
Any chance for a tiny teaser?  :evil:


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 24, 2008, 06:44:25 PM
There's been one tiny teaser... look in the CSM Panel thread.... :evil: :evil: :evil:


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on June 24, 2008, 09:49:37 PM
There's been one tiny teaser... look in the CSM Panel thread.... :evil: :evil: :evil:


Talk about a tease MEH!   :shock:

Nice!

BTW just to clarify, This VC work is intended for the next version right? Not downstream like the LEM work?


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 24, 2008, 10:02:08 PM
Correct and I could probably generically texture what's left and have it ready for release in a week right now, but with Moonwalker on the missing textures I'm looking forward to his additions before an 'alpha release' for performance testing among a specific few people (I did this with the current VC a long time ago).  Also, while I'm waiting on those, I'm working on adding a few details to the mesh.  Just finished a completely new set of RHC and THC meshes that I feel are much better looking than the current ones and, once textured, will look superb.  They're also a 2/3rds the size, as the old ones were pretty a inefficient use of triangles.  Currently the mesh resides at a smaller overall vert/face count, but the textures are HUGE by comparison to most orbiter addons, so I'm concerned about performance issues related to texture sizes.

I'm looking at the following...
1 4096x4096 texture (other panels and surfaces along with plenty of details that will eventually be folded into this)
4 2048x2048 texture (main panels for legibility)

Keep in mind that I can shrink those textures, but doing so reduces legibility which is something we want in our VC.

On a side note... I NEED a copy of the FDAI ball texture in bitmap form!  It's not compatable with any of my DXT/DDS reader/converters.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on June 24, 2008, 10:35:53 PM
I say just do what is best for you and hopefully readability and leave the rest to Orbiter's future.

Hell in the early days of 3D you normally were playing with VERY low FPS counts anyway.

I've never had a problem with large texture size anyway. And also keep in mind the HUGE sizes for Planetary rendering.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 25, 2008, 01:27:51 AM
And also keep in mind the HUGE sizes for Planetary rendering.

How big are we talking here?


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Zachstar on June 25, 2008, 02:00:44 AM
Orbiter Earth L10 is 187 MB unpacked

Moon L8 is 16.4 MB unpacked

So as you can see panel texture size is not going to affect things too too much.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on June 26, 2008, 10:42:58 AM
I didn't find a more suitable thread so I put my one question directed to Swatch here:

Did you change the shape of the exterior CM capsule mesh? To me, it looks more stretched / pointier than in earlier NASSP versions. It looks a bit off compared to the real capsule. In respect to the outside shape I think the AMSO CM is right on, except for the heat-shield. That seems to be wrong both in AMSO and NASSP. It looks too flat at the center, it should have more the shape of a cut-off piece of a sphere (sorry, don't know the proper wording right now :ashamed45523:)

If there's interest, I could try to build a new exterior mesh for the CM. Actually, I already started doing so.  :D
Hopefully, any discussable changes on the exterior hull mesh won't interfere with the VC you've done!

Again, this is a detail very low on the prio list, I'm only curious. Thanks Swatch!



Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 26, 2008, 11:32:36 AM
two things...but first, are you talking about what's in CVS now or my current VC... which I don't think I've released a picture showing that...

@proper shape:  Actually it turns out that the previous NASSP models have all been too long.  I initially built the VC (in CVS) from the outer shell of the CM, but have since revised it greatly (and not commited).  Now the actual crew compartment is accurately scaled as I've been using a few measurements I took when I went to Glen and proportions from Virtual Apollo and other sources.  One thing I haven't changed yet is the proper location of the tunnel hatch so that it would still match up with the exterior model NASSP has been using. As a result, the thing looks very long, but the tunnel should be about 2/3rds the length.

@exterior mesh:   I had planned to build the correctly dimensioned exterior mesh or manipulate the current one to fit the proper measurements, and the Heat Shield is on my list of things to correct.  I was going to do this after I release the VC because it will require offsets to be reset in the programming, as well as a modified LES to fit properly.

@textures:  Awesome... I feel better now.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on June 26, 2008, 11:54:05 AM
two things...but first, are you talking about what's in CVS now or my current VC... which I don't think I've released a picture showing that...

Sorry for not being more specific. I have the latest beta snapshot, so I'm talking about the mesh in the CVS.

@proper shape:  Actually it turns out that the previous NASSP models have all been too long.  I initially built the VC (in CVS) from the outer shell of the CM, but have since revised it greatly (and not commited).  Now the actual crew compartment is accurately scaled as I've been using a few measurements I took when I went to Glen and proportions from Virtual Apollo and other sources.  One thing I haven't changed yet is the proper location of the tunnel hatch so that it would still match up with the exterior model NASSP has been using. As a result, the thing looks very long, but the tunnel should be about 2/3rds the length.
Okay, so that means the CM will look shorter in your final version than the current CVS mesh (?).

@exterior mesh:   I had planned to build the correctly dimensioned exterior mesh or manipulate the current one to fit the proper measurements, and the Heat Shield is on my list of things to correct.  I was going to do this after I release the VC because it will require offsets to be reset in the programming, as well as a modified LES to fit properly.
Alrighty. Sounds good! Thanks Swatch!


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 26, 2008, 12:00:30 PM
yes, the new one will be shorter (The slope angle of the backshell is off by about 2-4 degrees in the current one)


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on July 10, 2008, 12:23:59 PM
Tschachim and/or Swatch:

I'm thinking about modeling the SPS engine bell mesh from scratch. The current one is not bad, however comparing with reference photos, to me it looks like a part of the SM needing improvement. Currently, I believe I could create a .3ds or mesh file of it, with its own texture, to be "integrated" to the existing SM mesh. Would this be feasible? Also, is having a seperate texture for the SPS engine, or in other words, using two textures on one model (after combining it with the SM mesh) something to be strictly avoided? If not, I'll have a go at it this weekend.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Tschachim on July 11, 2008, 05:58:46 AM
The SPS is already a mesh of its own, so if you just replace Meshes\ProjectApollo\SM-SPS.msh and keep the positions/dimensions we don't even need to change the code.  :cool7777:

A separate texture should be fine. As you're using gmax as far as I remember please don't provide a .3ds file, but the original .gmax file (or the Orbiter .msh file directly, of course). Just in case you have problems using the msh2max converter, I can provide the current SM-SPS.msh in gmax format, too.

Cheers
Tschachim


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on July 11, 2008, 08:05:38 AM
Yes, its a seperate mesh for two reasons.... one is because we'll eventually want to have it gimbal (something that is done easier and more efficiently with meshes than animations) and the other is because I've never liked that mesh of it, but it was taken from the original SM we had because I didn't have a good set of reference photos or dimensions to draw from.

So have at it!


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on July 11, 2008, 08:13:55 AM
Alrighty. Thanks to you both for your replies. Expect an update within the next 48 hours.

BTW, how far are we from having the SPS engine actually gimballing?


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: movieman on July 11, 2008, 10:27:44 AM
BTW, how far are we from having the SPS engine actually gimballing?

As I understand it, the exhaust gimbals when told to by the AGC, but the mesh doesn't.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on July 13, 2008, 11:47:31 AM
Thanks movieman for the heads-up. Can't wait to see the the gimballing animated.

Tiny heads up: wasn't able to spend as much time as I wanted on the SPS engine bell. Current status:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Rhinehornet/SPS_early_notextures.jpg)

Not sure if I can finish it today.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on July 14, 2008, 12:48:40 AM
how many polys are we looking at?


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on July 14, 2008, 01:23:45 AM
To help you along your way for texturing, some pictures I've discovered over the years...

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1128/543546591_8a86c4b91a.jpg?v=0)

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/166/337120666_bf3d842ef3.jpg?v=0)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Apollo_CSM_lunar_orbit.jpg/764px-Apollo_CSM_lunar_orbit.jpg)



Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on July 15, 2008, 05:01:43 PM
Incidentally my current model has pretty much the same polygon count as the current SPS mesh we use - 2408. This will increase slightly, since I'm going to add some more detail. I guess the final version will see an increase by about 30%, I'll try to keep that to a minimum though.

Thanks for the pics, Swatch. The first two images are exactly what I was looking for, great find!


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on July 15, 2008, 05:25:14 PM
Sounds good on the poly count...  if I have time I'm going to try going through the meshes and clean up as much as I can once I finish with the VC, but in case I don't have time, I just wanted to see if we'd have a major increase.   You can probably increase it by as much as 50% if you need to.

On those pictures... I was surprised to find them myself.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: FordPrefect on March 01, 2009, 07:42:35 PM
Whew... It looks like I was finally able to fix the errors which happened during the conversion from editable polygon to editable mesh on my new SPS engine bell model. I will add some more details and am going to map the textures on it within the next few days.

Regarding the LM ascent stage, I suspect I have to start from scratch again, it is awfully complicated to port it correctly from editable polygon to editable mesh. (Editable Polygon modeling is a very powerful modeling mode in Max, it gives you more freedom in altering the shapes than editable mesh mode)
The manual conversion of all wrong triangulation it just a nightmare. I'll do it as an editable mesh right from the start to the end. I have left over only one idea how the port-over could be managable, I'll try that.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on June 20, 2009, 10:18:51 AM
Long time no see ProjectApollo Programmers!   First, let me apologize for being absent for the past year.   As of June 13th, however, I am officially a 'rocket scientist' after graduating from the University of Cincinnati!  Tomorrow I am headed to Europe for a 2.5 week whirlwind journey, but when I return I will pick my VC back up and see if I can finish it up.

I just wanted you to know I haven't forgotten about you, but I'm back and look forward to developing again.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Tschachim on June 20, 2009, 10:52:11 AM
Congratulations and welcome back!  :)


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: NoName on June 27, 2009, 06:28:54 AM
Nice to see you still aboard Swatch :)

By the way, I still have to finish the tunnel graphics for the CSM VC ;)

Can't wait to see the CSM finsihed.


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on July 14, 2009, 08:17:28 AM
Hey Moonwalker!  I just sat down with the VC a bit this morning, got the entire lower forward Equipment Bay textured with your textures...

Now there are only two major outstanding textures...  The Systems tunnel on the bottom of the CM (that conduit thing around underneath the couches on the heatshield side) and the LEM-CM crew transfer tunnel at the top of the CM.  There's a few minor things to do, such as hand controllers, but I think I can do those pretty well.  Are you still up to doing those other two textures?

Other things to finish: 

  • Mesh and Texture equipment thingy above the head of the center seat below the hatch and under the couches... no idea what it was, but its hard to get looking right.
  • Texture hand controllers
  • Add equipment and lockers into stowage area below couches. (not preventing release)

Current Mesh Stats:
Faces: 23129
Verts:  21543 (probably about x3 when exported to Orbiter)
Textures (8, probably reduced at some point):  ~30Mb for Hi-Res,  <8 for lo-res when finished hopefully


Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
Post by: Swatch on July 15, 2009, 09:44:28 PM

Other things to finish: 

  • Mesh and Texture equipment thingy above the head of the center seat below the hatch and under the couches... no idea what it was, but its hard to get looking right.

Cross that off the list... it looks great!  :ThumbsUp432:

EDIT:

    Quote
    • Texture hand controllers

    ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST!!!


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: Zachstar on July 18, 2009, 12:40:41 PM
    Nice work man! Glad to see you back in action!


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: Swatch on July 21, 2009, 01:41:44 PM
    Well, the Hatch Tunnel and the Systems Tunnel are all thats left for the VC from what I can tell.


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: movieman on July 21, 2009, 11:28:56 PM
    Good news! So is it configured to be able to implement working switches, gauges, DSKY, etc?


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: Swatch on July 22, 2009, 11:30:32 AM
    I knew this discussion was going to come up soon....  :cool7777:

    That depends on what you mean by configured to do that.  I have not done any actual programming for the VC that actually works yet.  A long time ago I fumbled around with that, but couldn't get anything working.  When I actually get the mesh+texture finished, then I will start looking into that again, but for now I just want the visuals finished. :)

    Below is where I talk about the Advanced realism we COULD get with the VC, but almost all of it will incur serious performance penalties.


    As far as switches are concerned...

    Here is a very important question for you all.    I can add actual meshed switches that we manipulate, but that will mean either LOTS of meshgroups (1 for each switch) or LOTS of individual meshes.  Alternatively, we just have the clicks do something, but not actually give any visual indication.  Certainly we will have a 'clickable' cockpit, but there's a bit of an issue with how to get feedback from that switch click.

    Option #1:  I put the switch meshes in the VC itself with each one its own meshgroup.  We then use the mesh manipulation functions to 'flip them' them.  This has a lot of meshgroups (kinda sucks to make), and we've seen in the Saturn V mesh what the performance penalty is with that.

    Option #2:  I make 1 generic switch mesh, and when we register the switch, we create an instance of this mesh at the proper location and then use the mesh manipulation functions to affect that particular switch.  This has the biggest unknown as to performance hit.  It could be a bigger hit than that of Option #1, but also it could be more efficient.  I don't know how Orbiter will handle 400+ meshes in its actual meshlist for the vessel.  It may be very efficient for that, or it may take forever to render that.  Also, I'm not sure if the mesh is loaded only once, or if each time the mesh is registered, it reads the file again.  If it's the latter, that's a lot of overhead, as well as additional space taken up.

    Option #3:  We use a dynamic texture that we can draw onto.  I can already tell you though that this is a lousy idea because of the size of the textures we're using.

    Option #4:  Manipulate mesh vertices.  Here we have the absolutely most efficient, but also the biggest pain in the butt.  First, all switches will need to be numbered in a universal order.  Using this order, I will create each individual switch so that the vertices will be in order.  When I create the switch in the mesh, I will make sure they all are at the 'centered' position.  We can then access their vertices individually and get the 'normal' direction to switch it into the 'Up' or 'Down' position.  Each Switch will be very simple looking, consisting of just 4 vertices in a squashed tetrahedron shape.  Using the numbered order we laid out before, we'll just use an (n*4)+v formula to actually access the proper vertices (n is switch #, v is vert # within that switch) within the switch mesh group.  Like I said though, this requires a bit of abstraction between the VC and what the code expects.  Then we'll just write a routine that automatically updates the appearance according to what the current state of the switch is.

    Note: This is really only an issue for the switches since there are so many of them... some special controls can be done doing option #1 or 2.


    Gauges, DSKY, etc.

    These of course can follow any of the options above, but there are fewer instances of them, so some of the less efficient methods may be easiest and therefore best.

    DSKY:  I planned to use the dynamic textures for it. Its the only option really... but it will be its own texture and small, so it won't be an issue.

    Gauges:  Do you want to have a physical representation or a 2D representation?  Like the switches, we can manipulate actual mesh pointers (but fewer of them obviously), or we can use dynamic textures, but if we used dynamic textures, it will increase the texture count, but not really increase the memory used as the textures are fairly small.


    What I need:
    • Opinions on which of the above we want to do.
    • Programming help on whatever is decided upon.


    END ADVANCED DISCUSSION

    Once I finish the visual representation, I will commit it and then set about to making lo-res textures.  After that's done, I will start optimizing what I have for implementing the above features.  Finally I will optimize the mesh itself.


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: Zachstar on July 22, 2009, 01:20:56 PM
    In my uneducated opinion. When faced with such a likely performance hit with a mostly clickable cockpit in the DX7 client with its limitations. Perhaps it may be a better idea to just do the bare minimum of switches and DSKY until the time comes where the Open GL client and its greatly increased performance can be considered?


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: movieman on July 22, 2009, 02:42:16 PM
    In the short term we could concentrate on the DSKY, gauges, caution and warning display, etc, and leave the switches for a while. But I'd tend to go for option 4, so long as it's not too much of a pain to create... I'm not sure how you plan to make a switch from four vertices though?

    Either way, anything that reduces the number of mesh groups seems to be a good idea.

    I'd also vote for 3D gauges if possible.


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: Swatch on July 22, 2009, 03:36:16 PM
    Attached you'll see the tetrahedron 4vertex switch.  It will of course be textured, I just put that together in about 5 min.

    I'll look into 3D gages... but Zachstar has a good point... give me an order of importance for gages and switches etc.   I'm assuming the DSKY is #1 no matter what.

    The more I think about it, Option 4 seems the best bet.  Just going to take some creative programming and meshing.



    I still need those other textures, and certainly the systems tunnel is beyond my expertise... I might take a stab at the crew transfer tunnel.


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: Zachstar on July 22, 2009, 04:02:39 PM
    I would say DSKY and the bare minimum needed to control the vessel without activating an MFD window. In my opinion again. Though with the LM if the DX7 client is still being used by that point it will be difficult to ration the switches. when you need a good amount of them to do the landing.

    DX7 is starting to become a serious limiting factor. This is a tad off topic but maybe with the time this has been in dev.. That Apollo missions after 8 be considered towards the GL client?

    #1 It has GLSL shader engine. So you can do things with shaders that you used to have to do with texture tricks.
    #2 It has FAR better handling of meshgroups and polys.
    #3 Modern cards can actually make use of it. A 4770 is actually going to get a workout.


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: movieman on July 22, 2009, 04:33:13 PM
    Attached you'll see the tetrahedron 4vertex switch.  It will of course be textured, I just put that together in about 5 min.

    Yeah, stick a texture on or the right solid color and I think it will look fine.


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: Swatch on July 30, 2009, 08:16:08 PM
    Alright... since I haven't seen Moonwalker around recently, I'm going to close up the VC in its current state.   I'm mainly doing this just so I can put it out there and see what kind of performance hits everybody sees.  There's really only 1 texture missing completely.  Hopefully within a week I'll have it ready to export to Orbiter.

    Then I'll start looking at making it interactive.


    Title: Re: Apollo Spacecraft Components Meshing
    Post by: NoName on August 06, 2009, 08:59:33 AM
    Don't worry, I'm still around here :)

    Your work on the VC is just awesome!