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Project Apollo - NASSP
Project Apollo - NASSP Development
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ORDEAL Development Thread
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Topic: ORDEAL Development Thread (Read 16274 times)
Swatch
Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 1000
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #15 on:
July 25, 2007, 10:17:45 AM »
no, I'm not going to work on the ORDEAL, so have at it. When I said I'd look into making some psuedo-code, it was more saying if nobody was going to work on it, then I'd look at doing it, but I had no intention on putting much into it. You have a much better handle on the control systems of the CM, so I'll leave that one to you.
Anyway, I'm enjoying the VirtualCapCom challenge much more right now...
Logged
My Project Apollo Work:
CM Visual
-VC (~75% complete: texture work beginning again; mesh-78%; texture-70%)
Propulsion Particle Improvements (Focused on S1B right now, BETA 1.0 has been commited)
New Docking Method (~50% complete: research complete; coding partially completed, testing not underway)
Future Work: (if it's here, it's deemed unnecessary to upcoming release)
Older Work: (if it's here, it's fair game to whoever wants to improve)
EMS Implementation (committed: minor flaws, but groundwork is there, needs extensive testing)
EMS scrolls (committed: not refined, but usable)
SM Visual (committed: mesh-finished, texture-60%; possibly revisited in future)
J2 Texture (commited: room for improvement)
LRV (committed: mesh-finished, texture-90%; in future a ground up rebuild may be in order, but not on my plans)
Tschachim
Project Apollo - NASSP
Administrator
Hero Member
Posts: 3687
nassp.sf.net
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #16 on:
July 25, 2007, 10:19:58 AM »
OK, then I'll take a look at the ORDEAL.
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Coussini
Project Team Member
Hero Member
Posts: 699
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #17 on:
July 25, 2007, 10:28:11 AM »
Tschachim, thanks again
If you want to know what i'm doing, you can Check theses documents... I created many document on NASSP. SOO...
The recent one on the DISPLAY AND MANOEUVRE
http://www.filehost.gr/download.php?file=1e03bcac0e38cff094ff3ee475ec267a
DSKY PRESENTATION
http://orbiter.mustard-fr.com/tutorials/download.php?file=Presentation_du_DSKY
AND THE BIG ONE ABOUT MOON MISSION
http://orbiter.mustard-fr.com/tutorials/download.php?file=Objectif_lune_pour_Apollo
MOON PROCEDURE USING APOLLO 12
http://media6.filewind.com/g.php?filepath=13482
it's a begining... but you can see why i want to know on ordeal.
IT'S LONG TO CREATE A DOCUMENT, SO I SHOULD DO A FORCAST TO MAKE SURE THAT IS READY WHEN THE ADD-ON IS READY.
«
Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 10:54:44 AM by Coussini
»
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Have a nice day
Christophe
Project Team Member
Hero Member
Posts: 1072
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #18 on:
July 25, 2007, 10:47:49 AM »
Quote from: Coussini
During the TLI burn, the guidance of the vehicle will be monitored using the FDAI in front of the Commander. The Saturn third stage will pitch up at a preprogrammed rate as the burn continues and the ORDEAL will drive the FDAI at a matching rate to compensate for the pitch motion. This will allow the FDAI to indicate a zero attitude all through the burn. Therefore, if necessary, the burn could be steered manually by Dave, just by keeping the FDAI and the associated rate needles zeroed.
Not at all!
The Ordeal is an additional box that is only installed by the CDR after otbit insertion. Additionnally the Ordeal can only give a constant rate so it cannot follow the launch pitch program.
See also the abort procedures, especially mode III and IV: You will see that the FDAI angles for reentry are from the launchpad refsmmat (inertial).
Quote
Probably, the CM have an automatic feature like PROGRADE to maintain the CSM in the proper ATTITUDE in orbit
Neither! The prograde mode is an orbiter feature, not an Apollo one
As far as I know, in order to keep the CSM in the proper attitude while ordeal is working (orb rate attitude) it's exactly the same way than usual. You set an attitude with the DSKY (N17, total astronaut ATT, see G&C checklist) and the DAP will follow the error needles. For the autopilot it's exactly the same to maintain a fix attitude (rate 0) or a constant rate...
Tschachim!
If you works on the Ordeal. Be carefull with the orbital period! Those display in orbiter is wrong due to the fact that it takes the keplerian osculating orbit at a specific instantaneous time. But the true period (perturbated orbit) is quite different. Generally a bit smaller.
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Tschachim
Project Apollo - NASSP
Administrator
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Posts: 3687
nassp.sf.net
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #19 on:
July 25, 2007, 10:53:18 AM »
Quote from: Coussini on July 25, 2007, 10:28:11 AM
I'M NOT A JOKER
... I JUST WANT TO KNOW.
Sorry if I bothered you, but I don't understand.
Quote from: Christophe on July 25, 2007, 10:47:49 AM
If you works on the Ordeal. Be carefull with the orbital period! Those display in orbiter is wrong due to the fact that it takes the keplerian osculating orbit at a specific instantaneous time. But the true period (perturbated orbit) is quite different. Generally a bit smaller.
Thanks for pointing that out. First of all I need to read and understand the ORDEAL docu anyway and it would be great if I can bother you with questions about it after that's.
Cheers
Tschachim
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Coussini
Project Team Member
Hero Member
Posts: 699
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #20 on:
July 25, 2007, 10:56:47 AM »
Quote from: Tschachim on July 25, 2007, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: Coussini on July 25, 2007, 10:28:11 AM
I'M NOT A JOKER
... I JUST WANT TO KNOW.
Sorry if I bothered you, but I don't understand.
Quote from: Christophe on July 25, 2007, 10:47:49 AM
If you works on the Ordeal. Be carefull with the orbital period! Those display in orbiter is wrong due to the fact that it takes the keplerian osculating orbit at a specific instantaneous time. But the true period (perturbated orbit) is quite different. Generally a bit smaller.
Thanks for pointing that out. First of all I need to read and understand the ORDEAL docu anyway and it would be great if I can bother you with questions about it after that's.
Cheers
Tschachim
I MADE A MISTAKE WHEN I READ YOUR ANSWER AND I'M NOT FINISH IT.... SORRY
MY ENGLISH WAS NOT VERY GOOD... BUT I JUST CHANGE MY ANSWER BEFORE YOUR ANSWER. Thanks and excuse for that mistake.
You're welcome to see my document...
«
Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 10:59:44 AM by Coussini
»
Logged
Have a nice day
mikaelanderlund
Full Member
Posts: 193
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #21 on:
July 25, 2007, 11:51:38 AM »
Yoda
Mikael
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Coussini
Project Team Member
Hero Member
Posts: 699
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #22 on:
July 25, 2007, 11:54:42 AM »
Quote
..... During the TLI burn, the guidance of the vehicle will be monitored using the FDAI in front of the Commander. The Saturn third stage will pitch up at a preprogrammed rate as the burn continues and the ORDEAL will drive the FDAI at a matching rate to compensate for the pitch motion. This will allow the FDAI to indicate a zero attitude all through the burn. Therefore, if necessary, the burn could be steered manually by Dave, just by keeping the FDAI and the associated rate needles zeroed.
....
Not at all!
The Ordeal is an additional box that is only installed by the CDR after otbit insertion. Additionnally the Ordeal can only give a constant rate so it cannot follow the launch pitch program.
See also the abort procedures, especially mode III and IV: You will see that the FDAI angles for reentry are from the launchpad refsmmat (inertial).
I saw this in the APOLLO 11 ... and i know that the PROGRADE is not the real procedure. I just want to inform that is similar.
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Have a nice day
Christophe
Project Team Member
Hero Member
Posts: 1072
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #23 on:
July 27, 2007, 10:20:55 AM »
Quote from: Tschachim
understand the ORDEAL docu anyway and it would be great if I can bother you with questions about it after that's.
No problem!
Quote from: Coussini
saw this in the APOLLO 11 ... and i know that the PROGRADE is not the real procedure. I just want to inform that is similar.
Yes. That's what I wanted to point out: ORDEAL is an additional box that is mounted after orbit insertion by the CDR.
«
Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 11:33:10 AM by Tschachim
»
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Tschachim
Project Apollo - NASSP
Administrator
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Posts: 3687
nassp.sf.net
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #24 on:
August 14, 2007, 01:21:54 PM »
Quote from: Christophe on July 25, 2007, 10:47:49 AM
If you works on the Ordeal. Be carefull with the orbital period! Those display in orbiter is wrong due to the fact that it takes the keplerian osculating orbit at a specific instantaneous time. But the true period (perturbated orbit) is quite different. Generally a bit smaller.
Well, it looks like the ORDEAL will disappoint you. Once configured it just drives the FDAIs pitch axis at a constant rate, so it only works precisely when the spacecraft x-axis is in the orbital plane in a circular orbit (in a spherical field), far away from considering non-spherical fields. Moreover the orbital period isn't calculated properly from the Earth/Lunar and altitude switch settings, but a linear approximation is used. You'll find details about that here:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19740026211_1974026211.pdf
So it's not that difficult to implement it since it's a quite simple device, but given all these restrictions do you still want to have it?
Cheers
Tschachim
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Christophe
Project Team Member
Hero Member
Posts: 1072
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #25 on:
August 30, 2007, 10:24:46 AM »
Sorry for the late reply.
Yes of course I want it!
Even if this what you describe. In fact I know that and that's how Apollo worked, so that's how I want to do.
Do you think you could implement it in NASSP?
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Swatch
Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 1000
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #26 on:
August 30, 2007, 12:10:19 PM »
The biggest advantage to having it is that even though it doesn't completely keep you perfectly in prograde, it does keep your orientation fairly close to prograde.
Logged
My Project Apollo Work:
CM Visual
-VC (~75% complete: texture work beginning again; mesh-78%; texture-70%)
Propulsion Particle Improvements (Focused on S1B right now, BETA 1.0 has been commited)
New Docking Method (~50% complete: research complete; coding partially completed, testing not underway)
Future Work: (if it's here, it's deemed unnecessary to upcoming release)
Older Work: (if it's here, it's fair game to whoever wants to improve)
EMS Implementation (committed: minor flaws, but groundwork is there, needs extensive testing)
EMS scrolls (committed: not refined, but usable)
SM Visual (committed: mesh-finished, texture-60%; possibly revisited in future)
J2 Texture (commited: room for improvement)
LRV (committed: mesh-finished, texture-90%; in future a ground up rebuild may be in order, but not on my plans)
Christophe
Project Team Member
Hero Member
Posts: 1072
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #27 on:
August 30, 2007, 12:21:36 PM »
Quote from: Swatch on August 30, 2007, 12:10:19 PM
The biggest advantage to having it is that even though it doesn't completely keep you perfectly in prograde, it does keep your orientation fairly close to prograde.
And above all it can maintain you in an attitude perpendicular to the surface (that can be told as the same as perpendicular to the velocity vector in a near circular orbit) which is very practical for docking/undocking and separation in a equiperiodic orbit change.
Don't forget that the purpose of ordeal is not only "prograde" (which has only a few interest) but mainly to keep
any
attitude in reference to the
local vertical
.
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Tschachim
Project Apollo - NASSP
Administrator
Hero Member
Posts: 3687
nassp.sf.net
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #28 on:
August 31, 2007, 08:31:32 AM »
Quote from: Christophe on August 30, 2007, 10:24:46 AM
Do you think you could implement it in NASSP?
Yes, I think I'll give it a try, I see 2 panel related problems, though:
I think we need a very fine-grained altitude rotray switch with much more positions than our current switch has. Moonwalker, you would be the man for that, but perhaps I can do that by myself since it's just rotating a bitmap a couple of times.
I think I need to create a possibility to display/blit the ORDEAL panel on the main panel near the FDAIs optionally, because for initial ORDEAL setup you need to slew the FDAIs with a switch on the ORDEAL panel while watching the FDAIs simultaneously. Programming-wise it's no problem, but it's not realistic, but otherwise I fear the ORDEAL would be quite unusable.
Comments/suggestions and help is always appreciated as usual.
Cheers
Tschachim
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Swatch
Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 1000
Re: I want to know if The ORDEAL panel is working
«
Reply #29 on:
August 31, 2007, 09:31:59 AM »
How bout we make the ORDEAL a pop-up on the main console window, much like the difference between being stowed vs, being in use. Just have a click-area on top of the upper left rendevous window, and if you click there, the ORDEAL pops up, then have a generic X-button on the upper corner of the ORDEAL visual you just made. You could hide it in one of the screws on the ORDEAL's face.
Logged
My Project Apollo Work:
CM Visual
-VC (~75% complete: texture work beginning again; mesh-78%; texture-70%)
Propulsion Particle Improvements (Focused on S1B right now, BETA 1.0 has been commited)
New Docking Method (~50% complete: research complete; coding partially completed, testing not underway)
Future Work: (if it's here, it's deemed unnecessary to upcoming release)
Older Work: (if it's here, it's fair game to whoever wants to improve)
EMS Implementation (committed: minor flaws, but groundwork is there, needs extensive testing)
EMS scrolls (committed: not refined, but usable)
SM Visual (committed: mesh-finished, texture-60%; possibly revisited in future)
J2 Texture (commited: room for improvement)
LRV (committed: mesh-finished, texture-90%; in future a ground up rebuild may be in order, but not on my plans)
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