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Author Topic: Project Apollo MFD ideas & concepts  (Read 21257 times)
Swatch
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jasonims
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« on: June 29, 2006, 01:16:43 PM »

Swatch's Proposal on the Project Apollo MFD (PAMFD)

I'd just like to thow these ideas out there and see how everyone feels about them.

1.  We should use this as an integral tool with our add-on.

2.  We should take advantage and use it as almost a swiss army knife of flexibility.
  a.  Burn Calculator (psuedo-Mission Control Think Tank) - Capable of controlling the IU and calculating the TLI burn.  Capable of calculating and displaying burn data for MCC/LOI/TEI/etc.  This data can be displayed for manual entry into the AGC (AGC++ or vAGC) or possibly using dseagrav's telemetry in the future, it can uplink straight to the AGC.
  b.  Live Checklist - Interactive repository of checklists and reference cards for in-flight usage.  When you click upon a checklist step, it initiates movieman's flashing switch locator.
  c.  Live Transcript - Have a scrolling historical mission transcript synced to the sim time.
  d.  Astronaut Control - A page capable of controlling where the astronauts are currently situated.  Send the LMP & CDR to the LEM to begin start-up proceadures, etc.  Make sure there is at least one person in LEM to make it available.  Send crew to sleep, etc. the beginnings of proper crew and environment simulation.

3.  We should set a format of the MFD and stick to it during development.  An example of this would be to researve the right 6 buttons on the MFD for global MFD mode controls (not page or program specific) and then use the right 6 buttons for page specific controls.
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My Project Apollo Work:
CM Visual
 -VC (~75% complete: texture work beginning again; mesh-78%; texture-70%)
Propulsion Particle Improvements (Focused on S1B right now, BETA 1.0 has been commited)
New Docking Method (~50% complete: research complete; coding partially completed, testing not underway)

Future Work:  (if it's here, it's deemed unnecessary to upcoming release)

Older Work:  (if it's here, it's fair game to whoever wants to improve)
EMS Implementation (committed: minor flaws, but groundwork is there, needs extensive testing)
EMS scrolls (committed: not refined, but usable)
SM Visual (committed: mesh-finished, texture-60%; possibly revisited in future)
J2 Texture (commited: room for improvement)
LRV (committed: mesh-finished, texture-90%; in future a ground up rebuild may be in order, but not on my plans)
dseagrav
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2006, 03:13:01 PM »

Re: Swatch

1) No - Please don't require the use of a MFD for anything. People should be able to fly at realism 10 without using any Orbiter-specific assistance. It can be a multi-tool type aid, but its use shouldn't be required, at least not later on.

2a) I don't know how NASA's procedure for this worked - They could "P00 AND ACCEPT" for burn data and so on, but I think they read the burn data up on voice and had the crew manually put in the data, so they had some idea what the computer was about to do and weren't "in the dark" if comms were lost or the computer failed and did the wrong thing.

2b) No problems here

2c) I had planned to do this via the TELECOM code with the debug line at the bottom of the screen. This has the advantage that you can scroll the screen elsewhere (look at something other than the MFD) and still "hear" what MCC is saying. If it's on the MFD you have to be looking at the MFD to use it - Back and forth, back and forth...

2d) Do you mean just the act of moving people around, or having a crew you can have do switch-flipping and the like for you? The latter may be too complex for us to consider right now.

3) No problems here
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Tschachim
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2006, 05:13:55 PM »

Hi Swatch,

that are cool ideas, especially checklists are something I'm thinking about, too. I splitted this into a new topic, because I think these ideas deserve a topic of it's own and not get lost in the TLI topic.

Cheers
Tschachim
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BigDAS
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2006, 05:37:43 PM »

Definately 2b, ala Virgin's Shuttle simulator. More times than not, I'm scrolling around the panels looking for a certain switch which is usually right under my nose. These are particuarly hard to see in high screen resolutions.
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BigDAS

"We should, in my judgement, put a man on Mars by the end of this century"
Vice President Spiro T. Agnew - July 16, 1969
Swatch
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2006, 09:09:28 PM »

1) No - Please don't require the use of a MFD for anything. People should be able to fly at realism 10 without using any Orbiter-specific assistance. It can be a multi-tool type aid, but its use shouldn't be required, at least not later on.

2a) I don't know how NASA's procedure for this worked - They could "P00 AND ACCEPT" for burn data and so on, but I think they read the burn data up on voice and had the crew manually put in the data, so they had some idea what the computer was about to do and weren't "in the dark" if comms were lost or the computer failed and did the wrong thing.

What I meant was that we shouldn't make this an add-on that we'd expect to use with other programs, ala calling it a TLI Calculator as was suggested.  I agree we should reach the point where we can get by without ANY MFD, but we certainly aren't there and there's some question as to whether this is attainable, so I'm also considering that this is the only method we have right now of doing things outside of the historical panels, and we should take advantage of it.  It provides a "life-line" to a faux-mission control right now in the TLI area, so we should not shy away from making it a vital Project Apollo tool.  It does provide our only access to the IU right now.  Remember, there are some things that we'll have to make concessions on in realism.


Quote
2d) Do you mean just the act of moving people around, or having a crew you can have do switch-flipping and the like for you? The latter may be too complex for us to consider right now.

Yes, I was considering it more a simulation of the astronauts, not their switch-flipping abilities.  Very Happy  I just htought it would make sence to be able to move people around the two crafts (also useful for EVA activities, since we can't use an EVA switch anymore)  While definately more of an "extra", there is something to be said for simulating the astronauts living cycles and movement within the crafts.  I'll post some conceptual drawings of what I'm thinking of about this stuff later on.
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My Project Apollo Work:
CM Visual
 -VC (~75% complete: texture work beginning again; mesh-78%; texture-70%)
Propulsion Particle Improvements (Focused on S1B right now, BETA 1.0 has been commited)
New Docking Method (~50% complete: research complete; coding partially completed, testing not underway)

Future Work:  (if it's here, it's deemed unnecessary to upcoming release)

Older Work:  (if it's here, it's fair game to whoever wants to improve)
EMS Implementation (committed: minor flaws, but groundwork is there, needs extensive testing)
EMS scrolls (committed: not refined, but usable)
SM Visual (committed: mesh-finished, texture-60%; possibly revisited in future)
J2 Texture (commited: room for improvement)
LRV (committed: mesh-finished, texture-90%; in future a ground up rebuild may be in order, but not on my plans)
BigDAS
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2006, 11:41:57 PM »

It may not be feasable to eliminate all MFD ops. These missions also include Ground Control operation and flight calculations sent to the Apollo computers and Astronauts directly. Certain MFD's could be considered part of the GC mirrored on the vehicle panels.
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BigDAS

"We should, in my judgement, put a man on Mars by the end of this century"
Vice President Spiro T. Agnew - July 16, 1969
Swatch
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jasonims
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2006, 05:46:19 PM »

My extremely rough suggestion for an Astronaut/Spacecraft Status/Simulation page in the MFD.



I figured you could move them around from location to location using somehting along these lines, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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My Project Apollo Work:
CM Visual
 -VC (~75% complete: texture work beginning again; mesh-78%; texture-70%)
Propulsion Particle Improvements (Focused on S1B right now, BETA 1.0 has been commited)
New Docking Method (~50% complete: research complete; coding partially completed, testing not underway)

Future Work:  (if it's here, it's deemed unnecessary to upcoming release)

Older Work:  (if it's here, it's fair game to whoever wants to improve)
EMS Implementation (committed: minor flaws, but groundwork is there, needs extensive testing)
EMS scrolls (committed: not refined, but usable)
SM Visual (committed: mesh-finished, texture-60%; possibly revisited in future)
J2 Texture (commited: room for improvement)
LRV (committed: mesh-finished, texture-90%; in future a ground up rebuild may be in order, but not on my plans)
Tschachim
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2006, 05:51:07 PM »

Looks quite cool, I was always thinking about how to tell the ECS how many astronauts are in the vehicles, currently there are always 3 guys in the CSM...

Cheers
Tschachim
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BigDAS
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2006, 08:09:50 AM »

I'd assume you would want to make the Apollo completely MFD independant for historical accuracy. The AGC should be made to handle everything.
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BigDAS

"We should, in my judgement, put a man on Mars by the end of this century"
Vice President Spiro T. Agnew - July 16, 1969
Swatch
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2006, 10:47:55 AM »

I don't believe that that is historically possible...the Mission Control guys would feel bad if you said they weren't needed. Wink

To me, the ProjectApolloMFD is something of a necessity, at least for now and the foreseeable future.  It takes the place of Mission Control and the large navigation computers on the ground, as well as providing an interactive location for the numerous documentation and other spacecraft interactions.

Remember, the astronauts, while not having an MFD, did have many more resources at their disposal.
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My Project Apollo Work:
CM Visual
 -VC (~75% complete: texture work beginning again; mesh-78%; texture-70%)
Propulsion Particle Improvements (Focused on S1B right now, BETA 1.0 has been commited)
New Docking Method (~50% complete: research complete; coding partially completed, testing not underway)

Future Work:  (if it's here, it's deemed unnecessary to upcoming release)

Older Work:  (if it's here, it's fair game to whoever wants to improve)
EMS Implementation (committed: minor flaws, but groundwork is there, needs extensive testing)
EMS scrolls (committed: not refined, but usable)
SM Visual (committed: mesh-finished, texture-60%; possibly revisited in future)
J2 Texture (commited: room for improvement)
LRV (committed: mesh-finished, texture-90%; in future a ground up rebuild may be in order, but not on my plans)
Christophe
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2006, 04:22:29 PM »

Totally agree with you Swatch.
The AGC is not a magical versatile tool. It's a just a parent of the today FMS. But it is totally dependant from the ground controllers and ground computers for the build of maneuver.
A MFD for Apollo should have to do that ground job.
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BigDAS
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2006, 04:43:35 PM »

I stand corrected. I forgot that we're taking both rolls, Air and Ground control, however, the Apollo MFD should be only one you would rely on, and not other more exotic, unrealsitic gadgets.

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BigDAS

"We should, in my judgement, put a man on Mars by the end of this century"
Vice President Spiro T. Agnew - July 16, 1969
movieman
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2006, 05:23:14 PM »

Quote
I don't believe that that is historically possible...the Mission Control guys would feel bad if you said they weren't needed.

I noticed there's some information on what data was sent to the ground through the telemetry system in the Saturn V and Saturn 1b Flight Manuals, so in NASSP 12.0 we can probably have a full mission control room too.
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Christophe
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2006, 06:21:27 PM »

The problem is not to have a full mission control with some virtual guys wearing white shirts and black ties; the problem is: how can I do to fly with Apollo and the vAGC.
Right now the answer is: NO WAY.
The CSM is just a beautiful static model because there's no environment for it. A spacecraft is not like a plane: you line up on the runway and take off.
Apollo is a whole project with a spaceship , some ground network, computers, dozen of astronauts and engineers working hard while the mission is flying...
Of course the purpose of NASSP is not to simulate the deep space network antenna of woomera but we must accept that just release a spacecraft is like to build a static model.
You like it or not, but the environment of NASSP is Orbiter and we need to use it to fly. And in orbiter, the only way to avoid the simulation of the whole Manned Spacecraft Center is called: an MFD.
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BigDAS
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2006, 07:29:44 PM »

Which MFD (s) would be appropriate without sacrificing realism, besides Apollo MFD? Which ones would best emulate gMissin Contol computer? If they don't exist yet, can we make them?


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BigDAS

"We should, in my judgement, put a man on Mars by the end of this century"
Vice President Spiro T. Agnew - July 16, 1969
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