From lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Thu Nov 25 14:50:42 2010 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 19:50:16 +0000 From: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Reply-To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 232 Send Lois-Bujold mailing list submissions to lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk You can reach the person managing the list at lois-bujold-owner@lists.herald.co.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Lois-Bujold digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: OT:eh (was Semi-OT: Wow! You guys ROCK!) (Howard Brazee) 2. OT:eh (was Semi-OT: Wow! You guys ROCK!) (kerry weisselberg) 3. Re: Barrayaran historical secrets, etc (Zivya A) 4. Barrayaran historical secrets, etc (Meg Justus) 5. Re: Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans (Zivya A) 6. Re: Encyclopaediae with fake items to catch plagiarists (Katherine Collett) 7. Re: Semi-OT: Wow! You guys ROCK! (Claire Nollet) 8. Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (adkinslawfirm@mindspring.com) 9. Re: Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans (Jeff Shultz) 10. Re: Encyclopaediae with fake items to catch plagiarists (Margaret Dean) 11. Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Meg Justus) 12. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Jill Tallman) 13. Casus belli (Tel) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 05:04:00 -0700 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: [LMB] OT:eh (was Semi-OT: Wow! You guys ROCK!) To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <85098816-45F5-4198-9C68-7BB97D78AB0B@brazee.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 25, 2010, at 4:07 AM, mtraber251 wrote: > And teh is for people who are not all that adept at touch typing properly, with all the proper finger positions, but who can type quite fast with 4 fingers and the thumb on the space bar and enter. I am out of practice with true touch typing, and tend to default back to the old 4 finger almost as fast lazy typing, so I make the teh typo pretty much all the time, I am just very good at catching it. I have no problem with people having typos such as that. But when someone posts a message with typos, it indicates that the writer did not think his words were worth reading and editing. Unless I know better, I will take the writer's evaluation here. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 12:50:41 +0000 From: kerry weisselberg Subject: [LMB] OT:eh (was Semi-OT: Wow! You guys ROCK!) To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Peter Granzeau wrote: I don't even know how to look at the lolcats.com web site. Is there a way to see more than one cattoon? Me: If you go to http://icanhascheezburger.com/ it has a few per page, and links to more pages at the bottom. I prefer the dog ones, maybe because I can see a lot more expressions in dogs' faces, more scope for the witticisms, misspelled or otherwise. Peter: I don't see how "teh" could be a common typo for "the". "The" has a left-right-left typing pattern, whereas "teh" has a left-left-right pattern, making it IMHO more difficult to type. Me: I touch-type, and I do this all the time. I have to consciously slow down my left hand before doing the 'e', to allow time for the 'h'. I'm left-handed, maybe this makes a difference. Can't blame it on long nails though, just mis-timing the keystrokes. Peter: And I really didn't appreciate all the "I'm in and you aren't" remarks made at my simple request. If I didn't know what "teh" was supposed to mean, how was I to know to go to lolcats.com to find out? Me: Well, that's what I thought. The fact that it was two inadvertent typos, according to Royce, makes it kind of amusing that the assumption was made that he was typing in lolcat language. I didn't think "what the Hell" came across as inflammatory or rude, but hey, that's just me. Kerry Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 08:39:00 -0800 (PST) From: Zivya A Subject: Re: [LMB] Barrayaran historical secrets, etc To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <455383.63531.qm@web114511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 --- On Mon, 11/22/10, Pat Mathews wrote: I was on my way to class, and when I heard the announcement, thought at first it was a joke in very bad taste. It wasn't. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ > 'bad joke' is a common reaction to disaster. my husband walked into work in new jersey and someone said, "a plane just flew into the twin towers!'? to which he answered, don't be ridiculous, i just got off the train there and took the ferry here, it was standing five minutes ago!; 'but look out the window!' and he saw fire, and a second plane plowing into the towers...? a shock.? zivya, really relieved the train wasn't five minutes late that day... ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to zivya_a@yahoo.com Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:03:08 -0800 From: "Meg Justus" Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran historical secrets, etc To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Zivya: 'bad joke' is a common reaction to disaster. I was in Yosemite National Park on 9/11, staying in a tent cabin without TV. When I got up that morning, some kids were babbling about "they've bombed New York!" I remember wondering what movie they'd watched the night before (it had to be that, right?), went on a day-long hike, and didn't discover it had really happened till I got back that evening. I wound up watching the coverage in the Ahwahnee Hotel bar that evening (with a hundred or so other people) because that was the only TV I could readily find. Megaera ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:04:38 -0800 (PST) From: Zivya A Subject: Re: [LMB] Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <5668.62460.qm@web114508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 --- On Tue, 11/23/10, Walter Bushell wrote: >Ezar, showed himself more ruthless and bloody minded; he started a war not only to resolve a local political problem including the death of his only begotten son. The Haut were very protective of their own get, at least. > we? never see the haut/ghem with a problem child.? perhaps they murder such children in vitro, if the gene scan says they will be mentally unstable.? or else, the star creche does not allow such children to be created in teh first place. invalid comparison, sir. zivya ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 12:05:42 -0500 From: Katherine Collett Subject: Re: [LMB] Encyclopaediae with fake items to catch plagiarists To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <1A14249A-5F85-41BF-9B06-CC3BE815103B@hamilton.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 24, 2010, at 9:34 AM, Michael R N Dolbear wrote: > > Of course mistakes can get into the language as well as dictionaries, > thus Tolkein, all on his own, changed the standard plural of dwarf, with > such an impact that a reference to the Walt Disney film _Snow White and > the Seven ..._ has appeared in a reputable newspaper with Dwarves rather > than Dwarfs. Astronomy - "White Dwarfs" etc is uninfluenced so far. Well, that wasn't a mistake--Tolkien, the philologist, preferred the older (as in, Anglo-Saxon) spelling of the word. The story I've heard is that an editor wanted to change the spelling to dwarfs, citing the Oxford English Dictionary, and Tolkien replied, "My good sir, I _wrote_ the OED." [along with thousands of other contributers, of course]. Katherine ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 12:10:00 -0500 From: Claire Nollet Subject: Re: [LMB] Semi-OT: Wow! You guys ROCK! To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Jill Tallman wrote: >and don't forget the tragic story of Teh Lolrus and his bukkit Jill gets lost on cheezburger fairly often< I sometimes go to www.catswholooklikehitler.com and www.catsinsinks.com Claire, whom my family has dubbed "The Crazy Cat Lady" ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 12:10:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: adkinslawfirm@mindspring.com Subject: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: lmb-list Cc: Michael Bernardi Message-ID: <28376811.1290705023603.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 There's a traditional story, one of those cumulative lists of things, called "The House That Jack Built." To a similar tune, I'm looking around at books and cds recommended by the friendships inspired by the insightful discussions on the Lois McMaster Bujold list started by Michael Bernardi inspired by the books written by Lois McMaster Bujold. Etc. What are some of the good things that've come into everyone's lives as a result of the list? Just an example: if not for the list, Doug and Claudia would never have met. In Fladungen, Bavaria, there's a whole houseful of children who wouldn't even exist, had Mr. Bernardi not emerged [however temporarily] from his corner and asked Lois for permission to start the list. Worlds of wonderful things have been happening for folks around the world ever since. What're yours? Jerrie P. S. Be sure to cc Mike Bernardi on your good things; he's not been as active on the list lately as he should be & could use the feel-good reminders. ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:13:16 -0800 From: Jeff Shultz Subject: Re: [LMB] Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Zivya A wrote: > > > --- On Tue, 11/23/10, Walter Bushell wrote: >>Ezar, showed himself more ruthless and bloody minded; he started a war not only to resolve a local political problem including the death of his only begotten son. The Haut were very protective of their own get, at least. > >> > we? never see the haut/ghem with a problem child.? perhaps they murder such children in vitro, if the gene scan says they will be mentally unstable.? or else, the star creche does not allow such children to be created in teh first place. > > invalid comparison, sir. Please explain the Haut Vio. -- Jeff Shultz http://www.shultzinfosystems.com A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 10:30:01 -0700 From: Margaret Dean Subject: Re: [LMB] Encyclopaediae with fake items to catch plagiarists To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Katherine Collett wrote: > On Nov 24, 2010, at 9:34 AM, Michael R N Dolbear wrote: >> >> Of course mistakes can get into the language as well as dictionaries, >> thus Tolkein, all on his own, changed the standard plural of dwarf, with >> such an impact that a reference to the Walt Disney film _Snow White and >> the Seven ..._ has appeared in a reputable newspaper with Dwarves rather >> than Dwarfs. Astronomy - "White Dwarfs" etc is uninfluenced so far. > > Well, that wasn't a mistake--Tolkien, the philologist, preferred the older (as in, Anglo-Saxon) spelling of the word. ?The story I've heard is that an editor wanted to change the spelling to dwarfs, citing the Oxford English Dictionary, and Tolkien replied, "My good sir, I _wrote_ the OED." [along with thousands of other contributers, of course]. Although Tolkien was actually on staff at the dictionary for a while, not just one of the thousands of people who sent in citations. The fact is that in one of his letters Tolkien admits that "dwarves" as a plural was originally a mistake, but he was a good enough philologist to come up with a valid linguistic reason for using it. :) --Margaret Dean ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 11:02:04 -0800 From: "Meg Justus" Subject: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Cc: Michael Bernardi Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original > What're yours? > > Jerrie > > P. S. Be sure to cc Mike Bernardi on your good things; he's not been as > active on the list lately as he should be & could use the feel-good > reminders. Curried peasant. Yeltar. Some really interesting travel in the company of a person I'd never have met if it hadn't been for this list. Many good friends. Megaera ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 11:48:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jill Tallman Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <995191.48705.qm@web114702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii brilliant discussions. links to new books (yeah, I need more of that). Royce (glad you're still with us!) Herself. the birthday tixies. James and the curry (anticipating...) Jill ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 11:50:07 -0800 From: Tel Subject: [LMB] Casus belli To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 So, yes, Komarr was a planet vaguely in the Cetagandan sphere of influence that didn't take direct part in hostilities but facilitated troop movements and profited from the invasion via wormhole transit fees and trade concessions. At the time, yes, if someone is currently letting foreign troops in on you to invade your planet that's a perfectly reasonable reason to go to war with them to make them stop. But the Barrayarans -didn't- choose to go to war over it, they chose to restore normal relations and the Komarrans stopped what they'd been doing. Because of that, it's not a justification for war decades and decades after the fact. Picking up the fight forty-sixty years after the fact on a provocation they ignored at the time is not justified. That's the point of making peace- you need a new excuse next time. Now here's a hypothetical. Let's say the Escobarans staged a surprise attack on Barrayar the day after Cryoburn ended, forced a surrender, and then some loose cannon murdered... let's see. Gregor, his Counts, his Ministers, his Viceroys, his Auditors, a score of generals, the chief of ImpSec and department heads... we're not nearly at two hundred yet... and the confirmed heirs of all the counts and every male with even a vague claim on the Imperium. That'd be A-OK with you all, right? Nobody could possibly object to that! -Tel, wandering back to pie ;) ------------------------------ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold End of Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 232 ******************************************** From lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Thu Nov 25 18:04:33 2010 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 23:03:46 +0000 From: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Reply-To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 233 Send Lois-Bujold mailing list submissions to lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk You can reach the person managing the list at lois-bujold-owner@lists.herald.co.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Lois-Bujold digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Casus belli (Jeff Shultz) 2. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Claire Nollet) 3. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (A. Marina Fournier) 4. Re: Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans (Gwynne Powell) 5. Casus belli (Gwynne Powell) 6. Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Gwynne Powell) 7. Re: Barrayaran historical secrets, etc (quietann) 8. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (quietann) 9. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (I) 10. Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Jean Lamb) 11. Casus belli (was all sorts of philo and phobo Barrayaranism) (John Lennard) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 12:00:00 -0800 From: Jeff Shultz Subject: Re: [LMB] Casus belli To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Tel wrote: > So, yes, Komarr was a planet vaguely in the Cetagandan sphere of influence > that didn't take direct part in hostilities but facilitated troop movements > and profited from the invasion via wormhole transit fees and trade > concessions. At the time, yes, if someone is currently letting foreign > troops in on you to invade your planet that's a perfectly reasonable reason > to go to war with them to make them stop. ?But the Barrayarans -didn't- > choose to go to war over it, they chose to restore normal relations and the > Komarrans stopped what they'd been doing. Because of that, it's not a > justification for war decades and decades after the fact. Picking up the > fight forty-sixty years after the fact on a provocation they ignored at the > time is not justified. That's the point of making peace- you need a new > excuse next time. When the Cetagandans finally gave up on Barrayar, the Barrayarans did not have the capability of taking the war to Komarr. When they did... they did. Guerrilla war on a stellar scale. > > Now here's a hypothetical. Let's say the Escobarans staged a surprise attack > on Barrayar the day after Cryoburn ended, forced a surrender, and then > some loose cannon murdered... let's see. Gregor, his Counts, his Ministers, > his Viceroys, his Auditors, a score of generals, the chief of ImpSec and > department heads... we're not nearly at two hundred yet... and the confirmed > heirs of all the counts and every male with even a vague claim on the > Imperium. That'd be A-OK with you all, right? Nobody could possibly object > to that! > > -Tel, wandering back to pie ;) I suspect that the Barrayaran forces in orbit around Komarr, Sergyar and with all the trade fleets, combined with the Dendarii Mercenaries, would reduce Escobar do a cinder. And then sow salt on the cinder. Oh... and Miles would be Emperor, unless some of Gregor and Laisa's children survived. -- Jeff Shultz http://www.shultzinfosystems.com A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 15:18:25 -0500 From: Claire Nollet Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Just finished an early dinner at my sister's house, featuring my great-grandmother's French-Canadian stuffing recipe. Sausage, ground beef, cornbread stuffing, broth made from the turkey entrails, celery, onion, and spices and herbs. Heaven, sheer heaven. Thank you, great-grandmother Amelie, for your recipes. And thank you, dear departed daddy, for teaching me the recipe when I was only 5 ("Here, you chop up the celery nice and small"), and also teaching me how to make gravy the way his grandmother had taught him back in the 1930s. Nothing like putting a 5-year-old on a kitchen step stool and handing her a whisk and having her stir boiling gravy. Got my first tiny cooking burn that year -- teaches you caution. My dear departed mom never had much truck with putting covers onto wall outlets to protect kids -- "Let 'em stick their fingers in there once. I guarantee you they won't do it again." Ah, the good old days, back in the 1950s and 1960s. No precious snowflakes back then, by Ghu!!! ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:49:14 -0800 From: "A. Marina Fournier" Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Cc: Michael Bernardi Message-ID: <1FABDDDF-6BBD-4D93-A3FB-80EBB41F086A@me.com> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Nov 25, 2010, at 9:10 AM, adkinslawfirm@mindspring.com wrote: > What are some of the good things that've come into everyone's lives as a result of the list? I reconnected with James Davis & with Ma Foxti, albeit after their divorce. Through Sue, I reconnected with another old SCA friend. I got to meet Herself. I discovered a new Indian restaurant. I read a lot of OT posts from which I learned various facts. Marina ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 08:54:49 +1100 From: Gwynne Powell Subject: Re: [LMB] Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:04:38 -0800 (PST) > From: Zivya A > Subject: Re: [LMB] Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans > To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > > Message-ID: <5668.62460.qm@web114508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > --- On Tue, 11/23/10, Walter Bushell wrote: > >Ezar, showed himself more ruthless and bloody minded; he started a war not only to resolve a local political problem including the death of his only begotten son. The Haut were very protective of their own get, at least. > > > > we? never see the haut/ghem with a problem child.? perhaps they murder such children in vitro, if the gene scan says they will be mentally unstable.? or else, the star creche does not allow such children to be created in teh first place. > > invalid comparison, sir. > > zivya I agree - the haut don't give the impression of being all that soft and cuddly. They also give Haut women away to Ghem as prizes, and we know from 'Cetaganda' that at least one of those women resented it bitterly. Gwynne ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:05:24 +1100 From: Gwynne Powell Subject: [LMB] Casus belli To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 11:50:07 -0800 > From: Tel > Subject: [LMB] Casus belli > To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > So, yes, Komarr was a planet vaguely in the Cetagandan sphere of influence > that didn't take direct part in hostilities but facilitated troop movements > and profited from the invasion via wormhole transit fees and trade > concessions. At the time, yes, if someone is currently letting foreign > troops in on you to invade your planet that's a perfectly reasonable reason > to go to war with them to make them stop. But the Barrayarans -didn't- > choose to go to war over it, they chose to restore normal relations and the > Komarrans stopped what they'd been doing. Because of that, it's not a > justification for war decades and decades after the fact. Picking up the > fight forty-sixty years after the fact on a provocation they ignored at the > time is not justified. That's the point of making peace- you need a new > excuse next time. > > Now here's a hypothetical. Let's say the Escobarans staged a surprise attack > on Barrayar the day after Cryoburn ended, forced a surrender, and then > some loose cannon murdered... let's see. Gregor, his Counts, his Ministers, > his Viceroys, his Auditors, a score of generals, the chief of ImpSec and > department heads... we're not nearly at two hundred yet... and the confirmed > heirs of all the counts and every male with even a vague claim on the > Imperium. That'd be A-OK with you all, right? Nobody could possibly object > to that! > > -Tel, wandering back to pie ;) > Barrayar had one connection to the galaxy, going through the space of a planet that they couldn't ever trust again. They were constantly forced to go through Komarran space. In that situation they didn't feel safe relying on continued Komarran good faith, since it had been so brutally lacking at a time when they'd been most vulnerable. Securing the wormholes was simply a prudent move to ensure their safety. And in the time after the failed invasion(s) Komarr become increasingly rapacious in their fees towards anyone using their wormholes, which would have impacted on the Barrayaran economy and also shown a continuing mindset on the part of their nearest and highest-risk neighbour. Escobar has no geographical connection to Barrayar, no need to go anywhere near them. But if at some point Escobar did mount an invasion, they would indeed have the same historical justification as Barrayar did, although Barrayar has worked hard to show a new attitude to their neighbours, and build friendlier relations - something Komarr didn't do. If that hypothetical Escobaran invasion did result in widespread massacres, it would be regrettable, no matter who was involved, as it always is. I certainly wouldn't feel the glee you seem to show at the thought of it. Gwynne ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:08:20 +1100 From: Gwynne Powell Subject: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 12:10:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > From: adkinslawfirm@mindspring.com > Subject: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list > To: lmb-list > Cc: Michael Bernardi > Message-ID: > <28376811.1290705023603.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > There's a traditional story, one of those cumulative lists of things, called "The House That Jack Built." > > To a similar tune, > > I'm looking around at books and cds > recommended by the friendships > inspired by the insightful discussions > on the Lois McMaster Bujold list > started by Michael Bernardi > inspired by the books > written by Lois McMaster Bujold. > > Etc. > > What are some of the good things that've come into everyone's lives as a result of the list? > > Just an example: if not for the list, Doug and Claudia would never have met. In Fladungen, Bavaria, there's a whole houseful of children who wouldn't even exist, had Mr. Bernardi not emerged [however temporarily] from his corner and asked Lois for permission to start the list. Worlds of wonderful things have been happening for folks around the world ever since. > > What're yours? > > Jerrie > > P. S. Be sure to cc Mike Bernardi on your good things; he's not been as active on the list lately as he should be & could use the feel-good reminders. > Mine is a hope for the future, since I haven't been here long enough for much life-changing yet, although I do find a great deal of fun and satisfaction here. But I'd love, at some time, to have an aussie get-together and meet my fellow antipodeans face to face for a really good unofficial little Vorkosigan-fest. Gwynne ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:08:55 -0500 From: quietann Subject: Re: [LMB] Barrayaran historical secrets, etc To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I was driving to the train station on the first day of orientation for the graduate program I was starting, Heard it on the radio, thought "War of the Worlds" for a few seconds until I realized that this was *real*. Train was late, very few people on it. When we got to North Station (Boston) at about 9:30, there were extra commuter trains running outbound as fast as they could get them to, because all the office buildings in downtown had been evacuated and *everyone* was going home (35,000 passengers go through North Station per day, and probably 30,000 of them wanted to go home.) BTW, downtown Boston with almost no people is spooky in an interesting way. I took the subway the rest of the way to school, all the while thinking it was really dumb and I should just go home. I got to orientation and everyone had shown up so I was happy I'd made it. The orientation schedule ran as planned, with occasional breaks so we could listen to the radio and find out more about what was going on. Very scary time... Ann On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Meg Justus wrote: > Zivya: > 'bad joke' is a common reaction to disaster. > > -- quietann@gmail.com aka "The Accidental Jewess" ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:12:57 -0500 From: quietann Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Total fangirl reply, but... -- Because of listee announcements, I've had dinner with LMB twice. -- Herself has an active presence on the list and happily shares her thoughts about writing, both general and specific. Also ... -- more neat people and neat discussions that I could fine almost anywhere else (and Gwynne, I have met many of them in person and to a one they are interesting people.) -- getting to borrow the ARC for "The Sharing Knife" Ann On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 12:10:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>> > Mine is a hope for the future, since I haven't been here long enough > for much life-changing yet, although I do find a great deal of fun and > satisfaction here. > > But I'd love, at some time, to have an aussie get-together and meet > my fellow antipodeans face to face for a really good unofficial little > Vorkosigan-fest. > > Gwynne > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to quietann@gmail.com > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- quietann@gmail.com aka "The Accidental Jewess" ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:50:30 +1100 From: I Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <20101125225040.7FC818097@visi.gothic.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:08 AM 11/26/2010, Gwynne Powell wrote: > >But I'd love, at some time, to have an aussie get-together and meet >my fellow antipodeans face to face for a really good unofficial little >Vorkosigan-fest. > Do you know about the OZ list: lmb_oz@fireopal.org Very quiet, but used mostly for organising local meet-ups. Iestyn ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 14:59:22 -0800 From: "Jean Lamb" Subject: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Birthday Tixies (Ok, this sometimes involves emailing to a friend from a public computer because the public computer won't post to the Bujold list, but details, minor details...). Christopher Gwyn's crosscountry journey. Buying too many books because they've been recommended by other listies. Knowing I wasn't the only person to miss Faithful Companion when she passed away. Jean Lamb tlambs1138@charter.net http://mollylikesmovies.blogspot.com/ Meet the Carstairs Sisters at www.gameoflove1.com today! ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 23:03:38 +0000 From: John Lennard Subject: [LMB] Casus belli (was all sorts of philo and phobo Barrayaranism) To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Tel, wandering (le mot juste) back to pie, says: So, yes, Komarr was a planet vaguely in the Cetagandan sphere of influence > that didn't take direct part in hostilities but facilitated troop movements > and profited from the invasion via wormhole transit fees and trade > concessions. At the time, yes, if someone is currently letting foreign > troops in on you to invade your planet that's a perfectly reasonable reason > to go to war with them to make them stop. But the Barrayarans -didn't- > choose to go to war over it, they chose to restore normal relations and the > Komarrans stopped what they'd been doing. Because of that, it's not a > justification for war decades and decades after the fact. Picking up the > fight forty-sixty years after the fact on a provocation they ignored at the > time is not justified. That's the point of making peace- you need a new > excuse next time. > > Now here's a hypothetical. Let's say the Escobarans staged a surprise > attack > on Barrayar the day after Cryoburn ended, forced a surrender, and then > some loose cannon murdered... let's see. Gregor, his Counts, his Ministers, > his Viceroys, his Auditors, a score of generals, the chief of ImpSec and > department heads... we're not nearly at two hundred yet... and the > confirmed > heirs of all the counts and every male with even a vague claim on the > Imperium. That'd be A-OK with you all, right? Nobody could possibly object > to that! > And John, shaking his head, says: I've been keeping out of this one, partly because I've had scads of marking and other nonsense, but also because it's had the same structure as most of my previous disputes with Tel and I couldn't see much chance of any variant outcome. But Tel is a skilled provocateur and I'm a fool for argument, so ... Yeech - what a truly *bad* analogy that is, capping a bad argument. First up, Komarr is the only gateway to Barrayar, and could have refused to play ball with the Cetagandans. True, Komarr had no military capacity to resist the ghem forces, but did have political ones, and forcing the ghem to conquer Komarr themselves if they wanted to get to Barrayar would have changed the nature of the Cetagandan plan considerably, certainly raising the political costs across the Nexus in a way that the haut might well have found unacceptable. And if the Komarrans had done so, and been conquered anyway, they would have had both honour (for whatever that's worth, which IMO is quite a lot) and allies both on Barrayar and elsewhere. Instead they decided (or some of their oligarchs decided, but that's their problem) to profit maximally, careless of the Barrayaran blood that profit would come from. If we want analogies, how would we feel about Belgium if they'd taken a nice hefty Reichsbank bribe to let the Wehrmacht through to France in 1939, and then cashed in on transshipment of munitions and troops one way, and loot and prisoners the other? Would the country still exist? It would certainly have been occupied for a good long time after 1945. Second, timing and delay and new causes of war. Barrayar was invaded and occupied not long after the ToI ; and the planet is, IIRC, at the end of a five-wormhole route from Komarr. It took 20 years to defeat the Cetas sufficiently to force a withdrawal, during which time we know 5 million Barrayarans died, though we don't know what percentage of the population that represented, nor how the demographics of death were skewed in terms of gender or age. Given the nature of guerrilla and urban warfare, death was probably spread around quite evenly, but even so at least a slight predominance of male and typical fighting-age victims seems probable. There was also an unknown but plainly very significant level of infrastructural and other damage, certainly where Vorkosigan Vashnoi was concerned, and very probably in other places as well. The use of nukes, if not entirely punitive and gratuitous, strongly suggests a kind of scorched earth policy also, which would put such damage up very considerably, and would have applied particularly to industrial capacity. And all of that came, of course, on top of the ToI, so whatever progress might have been made economically between rediscovery and invasion would count for very little. Tel says a 40 year delay between self-liberation and Komarran invasion is unacceptable unless there was a more proximate and new casus belli, but that's pure tootle on at least two counts. With an original casus belli of the kind the Komarrans provided in their amoral mercantilism I'm not sure there's any statute of limitations, but regardless of that the point is that the Komarrans were *still* the gatekeepers of Barrayar, and there's no reason to think they'd changed any in their habits. If the Cetagandans, wounds licked, new weapons chosen, wanted another go, would Komarr have behaved any differently? They were still holding a gun to Barrayar's head, and from a Barrayaran p-o-v they had to be disarmed and neutralised. Then there's the little matter of logistics. Frankly, that Barrayar could get itself to the point of being *able* to invade Komarr inside a half-century seems to me middlin' remarkable, and bespeaks driving, concerted effort throughout that time (as does the achievement of the Prince Serg class as the fastest and heaviest warships in the Nexus within 3/4 of a century, and that from a barely standing, sorely wounded start). During the course of this whole thread Tel herself pointed out the logistical demands in creating and maintaining a space navy, and the time-scale for such a development is certainly to be measured in decades. Yet now, mysteriously, the Barrayarans 'chose' not to invade Komarr immediately, and further 'chose' to 'normalise' relations, before heinously and without cause attacking much later. Bottom line, the Barrayarans had every reason to conquer Komarr *just as soon as they could* without taking massive casualties themselves, and on anything resembling the timeline we have, they did exactly that. The intention was bloodless conquest, and militarily this was in fact achieved ; the Solstice Massacre notwithstanding. More power to the Barrayarans, in every sense. Now, as to that absurd analogy, it is proposed that the Barrayaran conquest of Komarr plus the Solstice Massacre is equivalent to an Escobaran invasion of Barrayar 'now' plus an unauthorised massacre of 200 high Vor/highly placed Barrayarans. Re-yeesh. 1. Escobar and Barrayar were belligerents. Barrayar was the aggressor, and lost (by design, as it happens, but that doesn't matter here). The end of hostilities was governed by direct negotiations over an extended period, which involved Aral "shuffling politicians back and forth between Barrayar and Escobar" and "prisoner exchange" (SH, ch. 11, and cf. Adm. Vorpatril's remarks about his two years as an Escobaran PoW in DI). I don't believe there's any direct textev about Barrayaran reparations as such, but it's clear that negotiations were comprehensive and presumably concluded in a treaty of some kind. Certainly relations have been largely normalised since, as witness much, not least Parole Officer Gustioz's inadequate paperwork. An Escobaran attack now would breach that agreement and normalisation. 2. Barrayar does not govern and control Escobar's access to the Nexus, nor offer Escobar any current threat, so Escobar has no strategic interest in conquering Barrayar. An Escobaran attack would be strategically gratuitous, and at best opportunist revenge for purposes of loot. 3. Any casualties incurred, whether by deign or loose cannon, would therefore have very little if anything that might weigh against their reprehensibility. 4. Conversely, Barrayar and Komarr were not belligerents. Komarr facilitated and profited from an association with the Cetagandans, who were belligerent, and while there must have been some negotiations governing Cetagandan withdrawal from Barrayar, there is AFAIK no evidence whatever of any Barrayaran negotiations with Komarr. Nor of relations being 'normalised' in any sense except that the Barrayarans were physically and politically able to use the wormhole route out, doubtless paying transit fees--there being no indication that they were exempted from them, and some evidence that Komarr went right on profiting maximally, regardless of any consequences. On top of which ... 5. Barrayar did indeed have a very powerful strategic interest in Komarr, which continued to pose an utterly unacceptable threat. See above. An Escobaran massacre of high Vor would not intrinsically be any less reprehensible in itself than the Solstice massacre, despite our far greater readerly distress at Mass Major Character Death (a Telwriting fic speciality) than mass offstage unknown death. But the proposed analogy goes face-down and simultaneously belly-up in a large and sticky pie. QED. Over the course of the thread I was particularly struck by Gwynne raising the issue of Vorkosigan Vashnoi, and Tel continuing to avoid it, while harping on the Solstice Massacre, suppressions of 'democratic revolt' on Komarr &c.. It's a different and far more morally loaded arena, but what this was reminding me of in my own bat-Tels was the way that Steady Freddy's political and psychic and Mehta's chemical and psychic assaults on Cordelia count for nothing, while Cordelia's well-placed kick in the evening news indicates only her mental disturbance and her use of a handy aquarium to 'torture' Mehta is greatly culpable. It seems that no Barrayaran citizen, decision, or reality is ever innocent or justified, while no non-Barrayaran ditto is ever guilty or unjustified. That last isn't fair -- Cetagandans are guilty too, as slaveholders if nothing else, and I dare say Jacksonians, though I don't recall any particularly Tel-ling denunciation of those gene-cracker barons -- but sure and all the playing-field is *never* level where a possible Barrayaran culpability is concerned. Go figure. John, who wishes he had some pie too, but it's not a holiday here, alas ; quite the opposite. -- John Lennard, MA DPhil. (Oxon.), MA (WU) Director of Studies in English, St Catharine's College General editor, Humanities-E-Books Genre Fiction Sightlines and Monographs www.humanities-ebooks.co.uk ------------------------------ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold End of Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 233 ******************************************** From lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Thu Nov 25 20:06:03 2010 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 01:05:38 +0000 From: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Reply-To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 234 Send Lois-Bujold mailing list submissions to lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk You can reach the person managing the list at lois-bujold-owner@lists.herald.co.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Lois-Bujold digest..." Today's Topics: 1. OT: AKISCOTL (Dawn Benton) 2. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Dawn Benton) 3. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Jim Parish) 4. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Stacey Hill) 5. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Pat Mathews) 6. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Ross Ashley) 7. Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Meg Justus) 8. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Royce McDaniels) 9. Re: Casus belli (was all sorts of philo and phobo Barrayaranism) (Royce McDaniels) 10. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Claire Nollet) 11. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Claire Nollet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:30:19 -0500 From: "Dawn Benton" Subject: [LMB] OT: AKISCOTL To: "'Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.'" Message-ID: <001501cb8cf8$b95562f0$2c0028d0$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Because someone on this list really does seem to know everything, I ask questions. I have a couple of boxes of videocassettes that I used to tape TV shows before they were available on videocassette. Now that practically everything is out on DVD, I no longer need them. Before I get rid of them, I wondered if anyone knew of a charity which might want videocassettes to tape stuff onto? Thanks Dawn ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:30:19 -0500 From: "Dawn Benton" Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "'Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.'" Message-ID: <001601cb8cf8$b99db690$2cd923b0$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am thankful to the list because it brought me to two of my favorite writers, Terry Pratchett and Kerry Greenwood. I have also enjoyed reading many hours of on topic and off topic discussion, although if I had to express a preference, I would probably prefer the off topic stuff. I have also had the chance to meeting some list members in real life, including Mike Bernardi, and have enjoyed their company greatly. Dawn ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:35:47 -0600 From: "Jim Parish" Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <4CEEF2D3.32354.C394CB5@jparish.siue.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Others have listed many of the benefits of the List: many e-friends, much interesting and often informative discussion, book recommendations, and the like. For me, there are two more. One: two summers ago, both of my longtime canine companions (14-15 years) had to be put down - one from old age, the other from cancer. The support of my friends here and on LiveJournal (which I would never have gotten into, without the List) helped me through those terrible months. Two: it was because of the List that, after literally decades of being a science fiction fan, I finally took the plunge and went to a convention - Balticon 2004, as it happens. In the years and conventions since, I have met quite a number of listies; I've had face-to-face meetings with authors such as Peter Beagle and Lois herself and filkers such as Tom Smith and Sally Childs-Helton. I've seen Connie Willis on panels and found her as delightful in person as she is as an author.... I could go on; these experiences (and they are not yet done!) have been among the highlights of my life in the last six years. So, to the list in general, to Mike Bernardi in specific, and to all the people onlist whom I've met or will meet: thank you! Jim Parish ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 13:00:10 +1300 (NZDT) From: Stacey Hill Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <575238.17816.qm@web96110.mail.aue.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 ----- Original Message ---- From: Dawn Benton I am thankful to the list because it brought me to two of my favorite writers, Terry Pratchett and Kerry Greenwood. Oooh! I *adore* Kerry Greenwood - have you read her baker series as well as the Phryne Fisher ones? And the YA fantasy trilogy I was delighted to find my library had! I picked up a Phryne book out of curiousity and fell instantly in love, and I dont really like mysteries/crime but have since discovered a taste for it. For me, I am grateful that my house survived the earthquake with what appears to be minor damage, as did most of my friends, that my cats are as well as can be expected, that I got to meet some authors and internet pals in person at Aussiecon. Also for the interesting and varied discussion here and other places that lead me to new books/authors/recipes etc. Without you lot, my life would be a less interesting place! Stacey ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:11:07 -0700 From: Pat Mathews Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: Bujold List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks for - the circle I belong to that meets on Saturday nights at Jay's house for potluck and ritual or socializing or whatever - - Jay's Orphans Thanksgiving for circle members and anyone they know who has nowhere else to go on Thanksgiving. I have a daughter in town in the North Valley, but their custom was established long ago - they spend it with her in-laws, with whom I have little in common. Yummy turkey, fixings, and homemade pumpkin pie! (I brought salad as always.) Getting a chance to see "How To Tame Your Dragon. Jay rents the neatest movies! And it's far more fun to watch them in company than alone. Knowing when to call it an afternoon and feeling quite comfortable with that. There was a time I wouldn't have. And above all, for all my good friends, F2F, online, real, in print, or virtual. Blessed be! http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ > From: tlambs1138@charter.net > To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 14:59:22 -0800 > Subject: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list > > Birthday Tixies (Ok, this sometimes involves emailing to a friend from a > public computer because the public computer won't post to the Bujold list, > but details, minor details...). > > Christopher Gwyn's crosscountry journey. > > Buying too many books because they've been recommended by other listies. > > Knowing I wasn't the only person to miss Faithful Companion when she passed > away. > > Jean Lamb > tlambs1138@charter.net > http://mollylikesmovies.blogspot.com/ > Meet the Carstairs Sisters at www.gameoflove1.com today! > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55@msn.com > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 19:20:33 -0500 From: Ross Ashley Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Message-ID: <4CEEFD51.8010408@sff.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 15:18:25 -0500, Claire Nollet wrote: > Just finished an early dinner at my sister's house, featuring my > great-grandmother's French-Canadian stuffing recipe. Sausage, ground beef, > cornbread stuffing, broth made from the turkey entrails, celery, onion, and > spices and herbs. Heaven, sheer heaven. Thank you, great-grandmother > Amelie, for your recipes. And thank you, dear departed daddy, for teaching > me the recipe when I was only 5 ("Here, you chop up the celery nice and > small"), and also teaching me how to make gravy the way his grandmother had > taught him back in the 1930s. Etc. I wonder ... I always thought Mom's cornbread stuffing was a Southern thing, but it sounds like your recipe, which is the sort of thing she might have picked up from living in my great-grandfather's household in Connecticut in the war years. Old Phil Ashley had been born Delphis Philippe Lafrenier in Saccarappa, Maine, in 1864. (Now called Westbrook.) Mmmm ... the assimilated Ashleys called the cornbread "johnnycake", at least through my father's generation. Mom would put in the giblets, not just make broth from them. -- B. Ross Ashley http://brashley46.livejournal.com http://brashley46.no-ip.info "It would be too painful to think that there are worlds somewhere where I got everything right." Sulien, in _The King's Name_, by Jo Walton Registered Linux user # 402119 ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:30:26 -0800 From: "Meg Justus" Subject: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Ross: > I wonder ... I always thought Mom's cornbread stuffing was a Southern > thing, but it sounds like your recipe, which is the sort of thing she > might have picked up from living in my great-grandfather's household in > Connecticut in the war years. Old Phil Ashley had been born Delphis > Philippe Lafrenier in Saccarappa, Maine, in 1864. (Now called Westbrook.) > Mmmm ... the assimilated Ashleys called the cornbread "johnnycake", at > least through my father's generation. Mom would put in the giblets, not > just make broth from them. -- If it's dressing (cooked alongside the turkey, not in it) it's generally Southern. Stuffing the bird (whatever the stuffing is made from) is, IME, a Northern thing. Megaera who will probably get a whole slew of people disagreeing about this ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:37:13 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 for giving this badly injured old walrus hope and a reason to hang on even in the darkest hours, I am thankful for The List. Giving Thanks Royce (who had FAR too much turkey smuggled in by Jill heh heh...) On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Jim Parish wrote: > [snip] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 16:53:54 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] Casus belli (was all sorts of philo and phobo Barrayaranism) To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I see an interesting parallel here that Herself may have worked out consciously or may have simply internalized without deliberate working out, akin to our actions in regard to Europe and Japan after World War II. Remember that Japan and Germany were, effectively, utter wastelands after the strategic bombings (non-nuclear except at the end at Japan but firebombs and iron bombs can do plenty of damage, just read the reports of survivors) that completed the Axis powers' defeat. Yet instead of leaving them enemies and grinding them into dog food as the British Foreign Office initially intended (white papers to this effect are available, perhaps John Lennard has seen them?) leaving them agrarian and impoverished as preventive punishment against future aggression, we promptly turned around and rebuilt them (Marshall Plan in Europe, similar stuff if less formal in Japan) to use as bullwarks against the USSR and then Red China. Enemies had become allies and desperately needed ones at that. Now let's turn our attention to the Nexus and the Cetagandans. They strike me as being in many ways the most territorially aggressive of all the Nexus major powers, with both the industrial base to support a large space military force and the political and social will to use it. How they profit economically from conquest isn't detailed, but we assume they essentially colonize a conquered planet with the Ghem, interbreeding them perhaps with the upper classes of the conquered planet and the coopting the local elites with various bribes until the conquest is so economically tied to Cetaganda it can no longer stand on its own. I would be curious how many of the Ceta worlds (Rho Ceta for example) started off as non-Cetagandan worlds and were conquered and assimilated this way, and how long it took. So it seemeth to moi that the rest of the Nexus is more than a little concerned about the Cetagandans but is for whatever reason not willing to confront them militarily. Instead, I see them as aiding and abeting Ceta enemies like Barrayar did Marilac with infrastructure, loans, grants, technical people on loan, you name it. We do that in the US all the time; Blogistania gets a "grant" of five million dollars to build a new rail line from pogsville to hoobatia and the company which "wins" the bidding is an american one which needs the business. I could easily see this done with Barrayar for the reasons of a) propping up local economies and b) making proxies that will slow down or even stop Cetagandan aggression but at little or no cost diplomatically and/or politically to the gifting powers. Beta colony may have been doing this, or Old Earth which is apparently still hugely economically powerful if not militarily so. And given the increasing speed at which robots allow us to build infrastructure in our time (1500 years behind them) I could see a large Jumpship "Factory in a Box" for making spacecraft of military caliber being "loaned" to Barrayar by a friendly Nexus power; it builds the first factory on Barrayar for free, the Barrayarans use it to bulk up their space navy fast so they can defend themselves, and then they sell some ships to buy additional factories. same thing for the rest of the infrastructure, with sale of strategic metals and perhaps other things to pay for it until the Mark is an acceptable Nexus currency again. Now as to whether the invasion of Komarr was justified or not, I take no position. I wasn't there at the time; contact wasn't established with that universe unitil Miles was in his late 50s. Innocent Royce (in whose mouth butter would not melt) On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:03 PM, John Lennard wrote: > [snip] > Then there's the little matter of logistics. Frankly, that Barrayar could > get itself to the point of being *able* to invade Komarr inside a > half-century seems to me middlin' remarkable, and bespeaks driving, > concerted effort throughout that time (as does the achievement of the > Prince > Serg class as the fastest and heaviest warships in the Nexus within 3/4 of > a > century, and that from a barely standing, sorely wounded start). During the > course of this whole thread Tel herself pointed out the logistical demands > in creating and maintaining a space navy, and the time-scale for such a > development is certainly to be measured in decades. > [snip] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:03:45 -0500 From: Claire Nollet Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Ross Ashley wrote: > On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 15:18:25 -0500, Claire Nollet wrote: > > >> Just finished an early dinner at my sister's house, featuring > my great-grandmother's French-Canadian stuffing recipe. Sausage, ground > beef, > >> cornbread stuffing, broth made from the turkey entrails, celery, onion, > and spices and herbs. Heaven, sheer heaven. Thank you, great->>grandmother > Amelie, for your recipes. And thank you, dear departed daddy, for > teaching me the recipe when I was only 5 ("Here, you chop up >>the celery > nice and small"), and also teaching me how to make gravy the way his > grandmother had taught him back in the 1930s.<< > > Etc. > > >I wonder ... I always thought Mom's cornbread stuffing was a Southern > thing, but it sounds like your recipe, which is the sort of thing she might > have picked up from living in my great-grandfather's household in > Connecticut in the war years. Old Phil Ashley had been born Delphis Philippe > Lafrenier in Saccarappa, Maine, in 1864. (Now called Westbrook.) Mmmm ... > the assimilated Ashleys called the cornbread "johnnycake", at least through > my father's generation. Mom would put in the giblets, not just make broth > from them.< > I think great-grandmother Amelie actually used white bread for her stuffing, but by the time the 1960s rolled around, dad had decided he liked corn bread better instead. He would actually make the entire Thanksgiving dinner every year, from the broth to the soup to the stuffing, et al, because mom HATED turkey and he wanted to give her a day off. We'd get up with daddy at 5:00 a.m. to be his sous chefs. Stuffing ALWAYS inside the bird, though, and turkey cooked breast-down, so the back fat could percolate through the breast to keep it moist., ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:05:30 -0500 From: Claire Nollet Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 7:37 PM, Royce McDaniels < roycemcdaniels158@gmail.com> wrote: > >for giving this badly injured old walrus hope and a reason to hang on even > in the darkest hours, I am thankful for The List. > > Giving Thanks Royce (who had FAR too much turkey smuggled in by Jill heh > heh...)< > You just better keep hanging with us, Boy. If you die, we'll have to kill you. Just keep that in mind. ------------------------------ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold End of Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 234 ******************************************** From lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Thu Nov 25 22:37:08 2010 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 03:36:40 +0000 From: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Reply-To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 235 Send Lois-Bujold mailing list submissions to lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk You can reach the person managing the list at lois-bujold-owner@lists.herald.co.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Lois-Bujold digest..." Today's Topics: 1. OT OT OT any advice on where to find... (fred smith) 2. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Royce McDaniels) 3. Re: Barrayaran historical secrets, etc (Royce McDaniels) 4. Re: OT: OT OT any advice on where to find... (Katrina Knight) 5. Re: Barrayaran historical secrets, etc (Jeff Shultz) 6. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (I) 7. Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Thomas Vinson) 8. lolcats (adkinslawfirm@mindspring.com) 9. Re: LINKY for Royce's CRYOBURN review at TWS (Peter Granzeau) 10. Re: OT OT OT any advice on where to find... (Peter Granzeau) 11. Re: OT:eh (was Semi-OT: Wow! You guys ROCK!) (Peter Granzeau) 12. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (SueN) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:17:49 -0500 From: fred smith Subject: [LMB] OT OT OT any advice on where to find... To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Message-ID: <20101126011749.GA27428@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I know it's OT. Sorry. I'm wondering if any of you know of any sites with LEGAL freely downloadable classical music. I know of a few places with limited lists, but I've still got room on my audio player that needs filling. Thanks in advance! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- .---- Fred Smith / ( /__ ,__. __ __ / __ : / / / / /__) / / /__) .+' Home: fredex@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us / / (__ (___ (__(_ (___ / :__ 781-438-5471 -------------------------------- Jude 1:24,25 --------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:23:03 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 attempting suicide was a capital crime in the old Roman Empire. The penalty for trying to commit suicide and failing was death. I've always felt there was something unclear on the concept about that... BTW, they've found BREATHABLE ATMOSPHERE on a moon of Saturn, along with evidence of life there. (see below for details.) space-geeked-out royce On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Claire Nollet wrote: > On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 7:37 PM, Royce McDaniels < > roycemcdaniels158@gmail.com> wrote: > > You just better keep hanging with us, Boy. If you die, we'll have to kill > you. Just keep that in mind. > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:33:18 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] Barrayaran historical secrets, etc To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I had gotten up and was about to go get my stepdaughter's dog my first wife and i took care of while she and her husband worked. I had the BBC channel on taping shows overnight (before DVR's remember!) and I head a voice say in strained British accents, "The twin towers have collapsed. With the pentagon in ruins and burning, this leaves only the White House and the US Capital as viable targets." I wandered in, thinking they were screening the latest Dr. Who or something. Then I saw the "BBC Live" in one corner and all the blood drained out of my upper body as I grabbed the phone for my work and found out that it was neither SF nor entertaining. Worst morning of my life for any number of reasons. sadly remembering royce On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 2:08 PM, quietann wrote: > [snip] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:49:44 -0500 From: Katrina Knight Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: OT OT any advice on where to find... To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <201011260149.oAQ1nkpE020768@lists.herald.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:17 PM 11/25/2010 fred smith wrote: >I'm wondering if any of you know of any sites with LEGAL freely >downloadable classical music. Amazon.com has a bunch of free mp3s. I believe there was at least a bit of classical music there the last time I looked. -- Katrina Knight kknight@fastmail.fm ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:08:39 -0800 From: Jeff Shultz Subject: Re: [LMB] Barrayaran historical secrets, etc To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I was still in bed (West Coast, school didn't start for another couple weeks). Mom came in and woke me up as she left for work, saying, "I think you need to see this." I was on TV and online fast enough to catch the second plane crashing into the second tower. The next Sunday was one of the most crowded at church ever - and I met my wife-to-be that morning. We both got to the main service late (having met and started talking in Sunday School about the fact we were going to the same college) and there just happened to be two seats together left... I figured that I'd be called back to active duty in about 2 years. It was more like 1 year 3 months instead, by which time we'd been married for 7 months. -- Jeff Shultz http://www.shultzinfosystems.com A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 13:18:05 +1100 From: I Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <20101126021814.768DF88F9@visi.gothic.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:00 AM 11/26/2010, Stacey Hill wrote: >Oooh! I *adore* Kerry Greenwood - have you read her baker series as >well as the >Phryne Fisher ones? And the YA fantasy trilogy I was delighted to find my >library had! Kerry's latest: an Historical Fiction set in Egypt is available from http://www.clandestinepress.com.au/authorsbooks , as is "Dougal's Diary", a humorous book in the form of the diary of one of David Greagg's cats: Dougal. David is Kerry's long term partner, the "Registered Wizard" from her Bio. Both are recommended. These are two of the first three books by a new Publisher, who will also be reprinting Kerry's "Delphic Oracle" trilogy next year. Iestyn (unashamed fan and long term friend of both Authors) ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:36:49 -0600 From: Thomas Vinson Subject: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Message-ID: <4CEF1D41.9030405@sbcglobal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed A minor, somewhat flippant addition to the list: Thanks to Cordelia and Steady Freddie, with helpful additions from many list members, numerous euphemisms for what John Lennard calls "the evening news". More seriously, walking into my first con (ConDFW 2004, where Lois was GoH) and recognizing a listee a few minutes after arriving simply because of her hat. Tom ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 21:43:49 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: adkinslawfirm@mindspring.com Subject: [LMB] lolcats To: lmb-list Message-ID: <7014702.1290739429381.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Tom Smith [http://www.tomsmithonline.com/ ], author of the classic Bujold filk "Falling Free", wrote a lolcat song called "Cat Macros." There's a short, fun video of it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp-kCsiIRyY Jerrie ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 21:59:56 -0500 From: Peter Granzeau Subject: Re: [LMB] LINKY for Royce's CRYOBURN review at TWS To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." , "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <20101126031948.FERC27861.eastrmmtao102.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" At 06:32 PM 11/24/2010, Michael R N Dolbear wrote: >"leige" my liege. > >Warrior's Apprentice spelt it "leige" on p 65 (ch 5), p90 (ch 8), p103 >(ch 8), p116, (ch 9), p147 (ch 10), p153 (ch 11), p158 (ch 12), p182 (ch >13), p204 (ch 14), >p217(ch 15), p242 (ch 16), p256 ch 18, p269 (ch 19) p295 (ch 21). > >The only "liege" I could find is the very last one in the book, p303 (ch >21) >Count Vorkosigan measured out his words slowly, drop by drop, as though >pursuing some delicate titration. "The Dendarii Mercenaries are a genuine >puzzle." He glanced at Gregor. "What is your will, my liege?" == > >Warrior's Apprentice, first edition, fourth Printing November 1992. Li?ge (French pronunciation: [lj ]; Dutch: Luik (older spelling: Luick), [l?yk]; Walloon: Lidje; German: L?ttich; Latin: Leodium; until 1949, the city's name was written Li?ge, with the acute accent instead of a grave accent) -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau@cox.net ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 22:02:05 -0500 From: Peter Granzeau Subject: Re: [LMB] OT OT OT any advice on where to find... To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <20101126031948.HFJX18557.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:17 PM 11/25/2010, fred smith wrote: >I know it's OT. Sorry. > >I'm wondering if any of you know of any sites with LEGAL freely >downloadable classical music. I know of a few places with limited >lists, but I've still got room on my audio player that needs filling. > >Thanks in advance! I use the Classical Archives. You must purchase a membership, however. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau@cox.net ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 22:06:32 -0500 From: Peter Granzeau Subject: Re: [LMB] OT:eh (was Semi-OT: Wow! You guys ROCK!) To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <20101126031949.IHYK8831.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And I find it very difficult to make; instead, I type tne or ghe. Same left-right-left typing pattern, using index fingers on center keys. At 09:00 PM 11/24/2010, Jason Long wrote: >I make that typo all the time; it's simply a matter of hitting the >keys out of sequence. > >Jason > >On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Peter Granzeau wrote: >> At 06:17 PM 11/24/2010, Thomas Vinson wrote: >>>t-e-h for t-h-e is common enough that the MS Outlook >>>email client automatically changes it to t-h-e, even >>>if you have spell- and grammar-check turned off. >> >> I don't even know how to look at the lolcats.com web site. Is there a way to see more than one cattoon? >> >> I don't see how "teh" could be a common typo for "the". "The" has a left-right-left typing pattern, whereas "teh" has a left-left-right pattern, making it IMHO more difficult to type. >> >> And I really didn't appreciate all the "I'm in and you aren't" remarks made at my simple request. If I didn't know what "teh" was supposed to mean, how was I to know to go to lolcats.com to find out? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau@cox.net ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 16:36:29 +1300 (NZDT) From: SueN Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <629639.67595.qm@web96104.mail.aue.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 ________________________________ From: Stacey Hill stacey@xtra.co.nz Oooh!? I *adore* Kerry Greenwood - have you read her baker series as well as the Phryne Fisher ones?? And the YA fantasy trilogy I was delighted to find my library had! Me: She's a flexible author isn't she? I like the mysteries, the YA historicals, the two scifi trilogies, and? the delphic stories (only have two - still looking for Medea) - quite a range really.? Haven't seen the latest one yet - trouble is, while the local bookshops will happily stock Phryne and Corinne, it doesn't mean they will take what they consider to be a punt on something different.? I'll have to go online I think. Sue N ------------------------------ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold End of Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 235 ******************************************** From lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Fri Nov 26 07:00:16 2010 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:00:01 +0000 From: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Reply-To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 237 Send Lois-Bujold mailing list submissions to lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk You can reach the person managing the list at lois-bujold-owner@lists.herald.co.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Lois-Bujold digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: LMB OT: Happy Cryoburn squee - No spoilers (Kevin Kennedy) 2. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (Judy R. Johnson) 3. Re: Casus belli (was all sorts of philo and phobo Barrayaranism) (Tel) 4. Re: Thanksgiving on the Bujold list (queenortart) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 03:03:17 -0500 From: Kevin Kennedy Subject: Re: [LMB] LMB OT: Happy Cryoburn squee - No spoilers To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hoot, Hoot. Enjoy the book, hope your recuperation goes well. > > Just had to share my excitement with the list - my son decided to buy me > a surprise present - A signed copy of Cryburn from Uncle Hugos. This > doesn't seem all that exciting until you realise that we live in > Australia and the postage cost for first class mail is almost the same > as the price of the book. > > The book arrived safely today (2 weeks after purchase) It was > beautifully packed and very welcome - it was waiting on the doorstep > when I came home from hospital. > > I really like the new cover - it looks great > > > Helen - doing the happi dance in Oz > -- > Loi ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 01:50:55 -0800 From: "Judy R. Johnson" Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <4CEF82FF.4010602@fidalgo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 11/25/2010 9:10 AM, adkinslawfirm@mindspring.com wrote: > There's a traditional story, one of those cumulative lists of things, called "The House That Jack Built." > > To a similar tune, > > I'm looking around at books and cds > recommended by the friendships > inspired by the insightful discussions > on the Lois McMaster Bujold list > started by Michael Bernardi > inspired by the books > written by Lois McMaster Bujold. > > Etc. > > What are some of the good things that've come into everyone's lives as a result of the list? > > snip ==================================== NEW from JRJ> Many things. At last a large group of like-minded friends who share many of my interests and enrich them, and who inform me about interests that have not until now come my way. A pretty much level playing field for discussion, unhindered by remote geography; indeed, enriched by it. A focus on rich, complex, and upbeat writing. Dissection of writing technique, particularly rewarding to a wannabe. Occasional replies from herself. I'm hoping to meet many of you at the Reno WorldCon. In the meantime, thank you. -- Entwife Judy Who doubts if the status quo is ever well enough to be let alone And who can't sleep for post-postprandial indigestion ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:53:29 -0800 From: Tel Subject: Re: [LMB] Casus belli (was all sorts of philo and phobo Barrayaranism) To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > And John, shaking his head, says: > > I've been keeping out of this one, partly because I've had scads of marking > and other nonsense, but also because it's had the same structure as most of > my previous disputes with Tel and I couldn't see much chance of any variant > outcome. But Tel is a skilled provocateur and I'm a fool for argument, so > ... > > Yeech - what a truly *bad* analogy that is, capping a bad argument. > > First up, Komarr is the only gateway to Barrayar, and could have refused to > play ball with the Cetagandans. True, Komarr had no military capacity to > resist the ghem forces, but did have political ones, and forcing the ghem > to > conquer Komarr themselves if they wanted to get to Barrayar would have > changed the nature of the Cetagandan plan considerably, certainly raising > the political costs across the Nexus in a way that the haut might well have > found unacceptable. And if the Komarrans had done so, and been conquered > anyway, they would have had both honour (for whatever that's worth, which > IMO is quite a lot) and allies both on Barrayar and elsewhere. Instead they > decided (or some of their oligarchs decided, but that's their problem) to > profit maximally, careless of the Barrayaran blood that profit would come > from. > > If we want analogies, how would we feel about Belgium if they'd taken a > nice > hefty Reichsbank bribe to let the Wehrmacht through to France in 1939, and > then cashed in on transshipment of munitions and troops one way, and loot > and prisoners the other? Would the country still exist? It would certainly > have been occupied for a good long time after 1945. > Well, I don't know. How do you feel about the Swiss? Every surviving neutral country on the continent worked with the Axis to some extent. The Swedes shipped German soldiers on leave back and forth from Norway to oppress on my cousins. They all did what they had to to survive. To address your analogy, I severely doubt Belgium would have ended up permanently deprived of sovereignty and autocratically ruled by foreigners, with native democratic movements stomped on at every turn. They were on the wrong side of Germany for that. Poland, on the other side, did take the honorable route, trusting in their allies to intervene in a timely fashion as they had promised. Nope. Polish soldiers made an enormous and desperate contribution to the war effort throughout the war. They kept faith with the Allies and were betrayed by your country and mine. It is -very easy- to ask -other people- to sacrifice their country pointlessly on your behalf. Being willing to sacrifice your own country, though... even among 'honorable' nations, few are willing to go that far. Your government wasn't willing to fight the Soviets then. Not even for a faithful ally. We're all Komarrans, John. > Second, timing and delay and new causes of war. Barrayar was invaded and > occupied not long after the ToI ; and the planet is, IIRC, at the end of a > five-wormhole route from Komarr. It took 20 years to defeat the Cetas > sufficiently to force a withdrawal, during which time we know 5 million > Barrayarans died, though we don't know what percentage of the population > that represented, nor how the demographics of death were skewed in terms of > gender or age. Given the nature of guerrilla and urban warfare, death was > probably spread around quite evenly, but even so at least a slight > predominance of male and typical fighting-age victims seems probable. There > was also an unknown but plainly very significant level of infrastructural > and other damage, certainly where Vorkosigan Vashnoi was concerned, and > very > probably in other places as well. The use of nukes, Well, one nuke anyway. I don't think there's any evidence for more than one. > if not entirely punitive > and gratuitous, strongly suggests a kind of scorched earth policy also, > which would put such damage up very considerably, and would have applied > particularly to industrial capacity. And all of that came, of course, on > top > of the ToI, so whatever progress might have been made economically between > rediscovery and invasion would count for very little. > > Tel says a 40 year delay between self-liberation and Komarran invasion is > unacceptable unless there was a more proximate and new casus belli, but > that's pure tootle on at least two counts. With an original casus belli of > the kind the Komarrans provided in their amoral mercantilism I'm not sure > there's any statute of limitations, but regardless of that the point is > that > the Komarrans were *still* the gatekeepers of Barrayar, and there's no > reason to think they'd changed any in their habits. If the Cetagandans, > wounds licked, new weapons chosen, wanted another go, would Komarr have > behaved any differently? They were still holding a gun to Barrayar's head, > and from a Barrayaran p-o-v they had to be disarmed and neutralised. > > Yes, from a Barrayaran POV. They're of Russian descent, the idea of a buffer state not wholly controlled by them must give them hives. They're never going to be fat enough. But this doesn't make the the imposition of a wholly unwanted dictatorship on Komarr not-evil. It's Warsaw Pact logic. Then there's the little matter of logistics. Frankly, that Barrayar could > get itself to the point of being *able* to invade Komarr inside a > half-century seems to me middlin' remarkable, and bespeaks driving, > concerted effort throughout that time (as does the achievement of the > Prince > Serg class as the fastest and heaviest warships in the Nexus within 3/4 of > a > century, and that from a barely standing, sorely wounded start). During the > course of this whole thread Tel herself pointed out the logistical demands > in creating and maintaining a space navy, and the time-scale for such a > development is certainly to be measured in decades. Yet now, mysteriously, > the Barrayarans 'chose' not to invade Komarr immediately, and further > 'chose' to 'normalise' relations, before heinously and without cause > attacking much later. > Look, by your logic below (snipped for space), if the Komarrans had sent troops to invade Barrayar and then made peace, Barrayar would have been unjustified in invading Komarr subsequently. Komarr's actions were -less serious- than invasion and peaceful trade soon resumed. If they'd gone all North Korea and said "no, this war's not over", and teched up independently, that's one thing. They have a whole planet, they're not hurting for space or resources. But I don't think it's plausible that Barrayar was permitted to trade through Komarr for forty years without being at formal peace with Komarr. > > Bottom line, the Barrayarans had every reason to conquer Komarr *just as > soon as they could* without taking massive casualties themselves, and on > anything resembling the timeline we have, they did exactly that. The > intention was bloodless conquest, and militarily this was in fact achieved > ; > the Solstice Massacre notwithstanding. More power to the Barrayarans, in > every sense. > Yes, their military reasons for doing so at that time are sound. But just because it's -convenient- for them to take stuff belonging to other people at that time doesn't mean stuff belonging to other people is theirs to take. I can see an argument that Barrayar has an actual right to their Komarr-side jump point. *snip* > Over the course of the thread I was particularly struck by Gwynne raising > the issue of Vorkosigan Vashnoi, and Tel continuing to avoid it, while > harping on the Solstice Massacre, suppressions of 'democratic revolt' on > Komarr &c.. ... it's a Cetagandan war crime. Credit/blame should go where it's due. It's not reasonable to pin it on Komarr, just as it's not reasonable to go around blaming the Germans for Japanese war crimes even if they were on the same side. I believe that nations and planets have the fundamental right to self-determination and that governments are made legitimate by the consent of the governed. These are not radical or controversial opinions to hold outside the List. I do think that crimes that are ongoing at the time of the books and the protagonists are doing nothing about are more interesting and worth discussing than crimes that happened eighty to a hundred years ago offscreen that we don't know even half the context for. > It's a different and far more morally loaded arena, but what > this was reminding me of in my own bat-Tels was the way that Steady > Freddy's > political and psychic and Mehta's chemical and psychic assaults on Cordelia > count for nothing, while Cordelia's well-placed kick in the evening news > indicates only her mental disturbance and her use of a handy aquarium to > 'torture' Mehta is greatly culpable. > It's not culpable because at that specific point she's actually nuts. If she were sane, it would be culpable. > > It seems that no Barrayaran citizen, decision, or reality is ever innocent > or justified, while no non-Barrayaran ditto is ever guilty or unjustified. > That last isn't fair -- Cetagandans are guilty too, as slaveholders if > nothing else, and I dare say Jacksonians, though I don't recall any > particularly Tel-ling denunciation of those gene-cracker barons -- but sure > and all the playing-field is *never* level where a possible Barrayaran > culpability is concerned. > Well, I don't feel that either the Cetagandan or the Barrayaran government is fundamentally all that legitimate when you get down to it. Or that there's much to choose between the two in the time period we're discussing... yes, Giaja the elder's goons were bad news, but was trading him in for Yuri really a step up? -Tel ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:20:56 +0000 From: queenortart Subject: Re: [LMB] Thanksgiving on the Bujold list To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I've met some lovely people, seen the Port and Starboard socks in person, eaten curry with listies, shared in the Arcs of the whole Sharing Knife series, and been thoroughly spoilt with knowledge and friendship and on and off topic discussion, and had Pizza! absorbed into my vocab which has now spread to other lists. I wish I had more time, but I go through periods when Real Life wins all ties. Have just deleted about 1800 conversations unread, and now trying to get back on track and keep up to date. I've not been commenting a lot because I had no idea what had already been said. This is a fantastic list (with only a minor bit of snarking, let's all chill out people) and I feel privileged to belong Suey -- "There was a definite process by which one made people into friends, and it involved talking to them and listening to them for hours at a time." Rebecca West ------------------------------ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold End of Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 237 ******************************************** From lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Fri Nov 26 13:49:47 2010 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 18:49:06 +0000 From: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Reply-To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 238 Send Lois-Bujold mailing list submissions to lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk You can reach the person managing the list at lois-bujold-owner@lists.herald.co.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Lois-Bujold digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: OT: OT OT any advice on where to find... (fred smith) 2. Re: OT: Kerry Greenwood (Hendon, Alison) 3. Re: OT: Kerry Greenwood (Hendon, Alison) 4. Re: Lois's Wikipedia Entries (WAS:- Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans) ( jwcr@gardd-lelog.org.uk ) 5. Re: OT: Kerry Greenwood (Jane Starr) 6. Curse of Chalion on sale at Audible (Becca) 7. book fiend comic link (adkinslawfirm@mindspring.com) 8. Re: OT: Kerry Greenwood (Kevin Kennedy) 9. Barrayaran English (John Lennard) 10. Re: OT: Kennedy Assisination (was: Barrayaran historical secrets, etc) (Daniel R. Reitman) 11. Bujold reading at Dreamhaven Dec. 3 (Lois McMaster Bujold) 12. Re: Lois's Wikipedia Entries (WAS:- Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans) (Anthony Breaux) 13. Re: Bujold reading at Dreamhaven Dec. 3 (Jeff Shultz) 14. Re: Bujold reading at Dreamhaven Dec. 3 (Tel) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 08:42:30 -0500 From: fred smith Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: OT OT any advice on where to find... To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <20101126134230.GB1915@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 11:47:52PM -0500, Paula Lieberman wrote: > I found > http://www.findingdulcinea.com/guides/Technology/Internet/Free-Use-Media.pg_03.html > which has some listings. > Thanks, Paula, I'll check out that one! Fred > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Katrina Knight" > To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 8:49 PM > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: OT OT any advice on where to find... > > > >At 08:17 PM 11/25/2010 fred smith wrote: > >>I'm wondering if any of you know of any sites with LEGAL freely > >>downloadable classical music. > > > >Amazon.com has a bunch of free mp3s. I believe there was at least a bit of > >classical music there the last time I looked. > > > >-- > >Katrina Knight > >kknight@fastmail.fm > >-- -- ---- Fred Smith -- fredex@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us ----------------------------- But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. ------------------------------- Romans 5:8 (niv) ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:22:30 -0500 From: "Hendon, Alison" Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Kerry Greenwood To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've had very good luck, here in the US, getting the Phryne Fisher books from Allen & Unwin in Australia. (I like to read them right away!) Alison > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: I > > The first Phryne Fisher omnibus is available ." > > Introducing the Honourable Phryne Fisher > > " It collects the first three books (Cocaine Blues, Flying > too High, Murder on the Ballarat Train). At A$30 it is very > good value. For more information see > http://www.phrynefisher.com/ . > > === > > Amazon US doesn't like it ("we'll let you know when it's > available"). I may have to attack Amazon UK. > > Jill > great, like I need another humongous series... ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:28:08 -0500 From: "Hendon, Alison" Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Kerry Greenwood To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I too am very frustrated by the lack of ebooks by Kerry Greenwood. I have all of them so far (except Dead Men's Chest). Where to start? I think I would start with Murder on the Ballarat Train. The first 2 (Cocaine Blues and Flying too High) aren't my favorites but I certainly would go back and read them. Alison Alison Hendon > -----Original Message----- > From: lois-bujold-bounces@lists.herald.co.uk > [mailto:lois-bujold-bounces@lists.herald.co.uk] On Behalf Of Becca > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 10:41 PM > To: Bujold > Subject: [LMB] OT: Kerry Greenwood > > Never heard of her, but with all the raves here, it sounds > like I'm missing something. Where is a good place to start? > > -becca > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to > a.hendon@brooklynpubliclibrary.org > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 14:34:55 +0000 From: " jwcr@gardd-lelog.org.uk " Subject: Re: [LMB] Lois's Wikipedia Entries (WAS:- Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans) To: " Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. " Message-ID: <201011261435.oAQEZ3mA010845@lists.herald.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 You don't see the actual Wizard in"The Wizard of Oz" until the end of the book/film, but he orchestrated the events in the plot and is very definitely a central character. Sent from my HTC ----- Reply message ----- From: "Anke Wehner" Date: Wed, Nov 24, 2010 13:11 Subject: [LMB] Lois's Wikipedia Entries (WAS:- Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans) To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." On 24 November 2010 12:24, James M. BRYANT G4CLF wrote: > Walter Bushell remarks that:- > >>Wikpedia list Ezar as a minor character in the series, >>whereas, he is the pivot and center of the whole Aral, >>Miles and Gregor era. > > So, Walter, don't just sit there - go and edit Wikipedia > to do a better job on this particular issue. But Ezar IS a minor character in the series... There is no book centering on him, or with him as a viewpoint character. Anke -- http://ankewehner.de http://ankewehner.etsy.com -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to jwcr@gardd-lelog.org.uk Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:01:11 -0700 From: Jane Starr Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Kerry Greenwood To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Message-ID: <20101126090111.tv4edxtz408o0w8k@login.bluehost.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Re: Introducing the Honourable Phryne Fisher >> Amazon US doesn't like it ("we'll let you know when it's >> available"). I may have to attack Amazon UK. >> >> Jill >> great, like I need another humongous series... I've just ordered from Amazon.co.uk (it will be released Dec. 1), but Amazon.ca has it listed with a release date of February 2011. I do like the covers of those books! Jane (who also does not NEED another humongous series, but WANTS one anyway) ******************************************* Jane Starr ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 08:22:41 -0800 (PST) From: Becca Subject: [LMB] Curse of Chalion on sale at Audible To: Bujold Message-ID: <926412.25101.qm@web39606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii for $4.95 - this may be a member's only sale, I don't know. But it's very well read (I just finished listening to my copy) -- well worth while! -becca, who can't decide who she loves more, Aral or Cazaril ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:27:59 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: adkinslawfirm@mindspring.com Subject: [LMB] book fiend comic link To: lmb-list Message-ID: <11396354.1290788879396.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Could someone re-send this? Thanks! Jerrie ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:37:17 -0500 From: Kevin Kennedy Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Kerry Greenwood To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think I'll have to try Kerry Greenwood. But, what with Dick Francis having written his final book, and Katharine Kerr finishing the Deverry series, I'm wondering which prolific new-to-me author will appear to attack my wallet. And that's even with knowing that Elizabeth Kerner is working on another trilogy, and there are 3 new Liaden books in the works, for after _Ghost Ship_ > > Jane > (who also does not NEED another humongous series, but WANTS one anyway) > > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 17:30:26 +0000 From: John Lennard Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran English To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Did _anyone_ on this list (excepting Our Author) >ever use the word "belike" before reading Bujold? Kerry: Yes, thanks to Heyer. There's a line in Devil's Cub where one character, the redoubtable rollicking Rupert, asks another, the divine Dominic, for a reminder of when he said he'd repay his debt to him. "Judgement Day, belike", said his undutiful nephew. I don't think I've ever used it in spoken conversation though. Written only. John: It's in Shakespeare quite often (43 times, Spevack's Concordance tells me), so one hears it in performance. "Belike your lordship takes us then for fools" -- I Henry VI, 3.2.61. Aral's and Miles's typically terminal use may be influenced by Heyer's, though. -- John Lennard, MA DPhil. (Oxon.), MA (WU) Director of Studies in English, St Catharine's College General editor, Humanities-E-Books Genre Fiction Sightlines and Monographs www.humanities-ebooks.co.uk ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:12:27 -0800 From: "Daniel R. Reitman" Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Kennedy Assisination (was: Barrayaran historical secrets, etc) To: Message-ID: <6a920b2d0652cb99774835509ede5193@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Bear Master wrote: > Can we please take any further assassination discussion to Royce's blog? That depends. Was Vordarian involved? Dan, ad nauseam ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:24:00 -0600 (CST) From: Lois McMaster Bujold Subject: [LMB] Bujold reading at Dreamhaven Dec. 3 To: "lois- >> Bujold chat list" , "LordV@yahoogroups.com" Message-ID: <4CEFFB3F.5020706@myinfmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hiya -- On the evening of Friday, December 3, at 6:30 PM, I will be doing my annual reading at Dreamhaven Books & Comics in Minneapolis. http://www.dreamhavenbooks.com/ This is part of the Speculations reading series. (I'll likely read from the Ivan book, again.) Dreamhaven is at DreamHaven Books & Comics 2301 E 38th Street Minneapolis, MN 55406-3015 http://www.dreamhavenbooks.com/location.php Ta, L. ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:25:52 -0700 From: "Anthony Breaux" Subject: Re: [LMB] Lois's Wikipedia Entries (WAS:- Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans) To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <4ceffbb6.a87edc0a.3ccb.220f@mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Disagree on several levels. First, "minor" in this context does not mean "unimportant."  It's a measure of how much time the character gets "on stage." Saron in LotR (the books) is a good example, central to the plot, all the more menacing for never being seen. And by that standard, Oz the Great is a minor character too.  Title characers, the Lord of the Ring and the Wizard of Oz, important characters, but minor characters in their own books. Now in the movie, even if we discount Professor Marvel in Kansas, we did see the wizard several times.  The gate guard, the driver who sugested they stop at the wash & brush up, the major domo at the palace, all played by the same actor, all the wizard.  How else would he have known so much about them? -- Sent from my Palm Pre On Nov 26, 2010 7:35 AM, jwcr@gardd-lelog.org.uk <jwcr@gardd-lelog.org.uk> wrote: You don't see the actual Wizard in"The Wizard of Oz" until the end of the book/film, but he orchestrated the events in the plot and is very definitely a central character. Sent from my HTC ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:28:56 -0800 From: Jeff Shultz Subject: Re: [LMB] Bujold reading at Dreamhaven Dec. 3 To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Okay, who in Minneapolis has a good camera, tripod, and maybe even an external microphone...? On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Lois McMaster Bujold wrote: > Hiya -- > > ? ?On the evening of Friday, December 3, at 6:30 PM, I will be doing my > annual reading at Dreamhaven Books & Comics in Minneapolis. > ?http://www.dreamhavenbooks.com/ ?This is part of the Speculations reading > series. ?(I'll likely read from the Ivan book, again.) > > ? ?Dreamhaven is at > > DreamHaven Books & Comics > 2301 E 38th Street > Minneapolis, MN 55406-3015 > > http://www.dreamhavenbooks.com/location.php > > ? ?Ta, L. > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to jeffshultz@gmail.com > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Jeff Shultz http://www.shultzinfosystems.com A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train. ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:48:58 -0800 From: Tel Subject: Re: [LMB] Bujold reading at Dreamhaven Dec. 3 To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Jeff Shultz wrote: > Okay, who in Minneapolis has a good camera, tripod, and maybe even an > external microphone...? > > What we actually need is someone with a pencil and notebook to ask her how to spell all the names... ;) -Tel ------------------------------ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold End of Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 238 ******************************************** From lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Fri Nov 26 15:01:17 2010 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 20:00:54 +0000 From: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Reply-To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 239 Send Lois-Bujold mailing list submissions to lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk You can reach the person managing the list at lois-bujold-owner@lists.herald.co.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Lois-Bujold digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Casus belli (was all sorts of philo and phobo Barrayaranism) (John Lennard) 2. NHITN: Rising Sea Levels Imperial New Jersy (Royce McDaniels) 3. Re: NHITN: Rising Sea Levels Imperial New Jersy (Jeff Shultz) 4. Bujold mentioned on penny arcade (Philip Cass) 5. Re: NHITN: Rising Sea Levels Imperial New Jersy (Marcia) 6. Re: NHITN: Rising Sea Levels Imperial New Jersy (Royce McDaniels) 7. Re: Bujold mentioned on penny arcade (Royce McDaniels) 8. OT: AKICOTL: Need help setting up and running a MediaWikki Wikki (Royce McDaniels) 9. Re: OT: AKICOTL: Need help setting up and running a MediaWikki Wikki (Anke Wehner) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 19:21:27 +0000 From: John Lennard Subject: [LMB] Casus belli (was all sorts of philo and phobo Barrayaranism) To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ***Neither my Belgian nor Tel's Swiss/Polish analogies really work at all, because there's no equivalent of the wormhole issue -- we need an island reachable only via a bridge terminating in another country who accept tolls to let an invading army through. There is no groundside analogy that works. So no, we're not all Komarrans. (Great phrase, though.) > They were still holding a gun to Barrayar's head, >> >> > and from a Barrayaran p-o-v they had to be disarmed and neutralised. >> >> > Yes, from a Barrayaran POV. They're of Russian descent, the idea of a >>> buffer >> >> state not wholly controlled by them must give them hives. They're never >> >> going to be fat enough. But this doesn't make the the imposition of a >>> wholly >> >> unwanted dictatorship on Komarr not-evil. It's Warsaw Pact logic. >> >> ***Sigh. 1. They're never going to be fat enough. - Barrayarans as Johnny Rocko in *Key Largo* - No, that's not so. Besides Komarr, for primarily strategic reasons, the only planet Barrayar has grabbed is Sergyar, and they discovered that before even the Betan Survey. Escobar was an assassination tool, not a land-grab. There's no sign whatever that the Barrayaran Imperium is intrinsically or by policy expansionist ; that's the Cetagandans. Pol, Aslund, Vervain are all allies, and show no fear of being gobbled up by Barrayar. 2. But this doesn't make the the imposition of a wholly unwanted dictatorship on Komarr not-evil. - Doesn't it? It sure raises some question-marks. Again, there's no groundbound analogy that really works, but granting the need and justification to secure oneself from repeated and very deadly assault facilitated for gain by a specific polity, we need necessary evil alongside not-evil, at least. If someone's holding a gun to your head (and has already shot you once ...), you take away the gun and restrain the person ; then you decide what to do. The Barrayarans tried for a bloodless takeover, achieved it with the signal exception of the Solstice Massacre (death-toll 200, principal senior perpetrator summarily murdered), and have ever since been seeking an integration that will obviate the moral transgression involved. I'd give 'em higher marks than I would either my country or yours over the last 200, increasingly 'democratic' years. 3. It's Warsaw Pact logic. - No, that's not so either. The Soviet Occupation and political assimilation of the eastern European countries it liberated from Nazi invasion and/or occupied was driven by (i) (Stalin's) opportunism, (ii) the emergent Cold War polarisation in which the USSR would face NATO, which had by 1944 become visible in Greece and Yugoslavia, and (iii) the expansionist logic of communism in conflict with the expansionist logic of capitalism. None of those countries had faciliated the invasion of Russia for gain, and none threatened the USSR in any way. Another analogy bites the moral dust. But I don't think it's plausible that Barrayar was permitted to trade > through Komarr for forty years without being at formal peace with Komarr. ***You miss my point. Komarr and Barrayar aren't 'at formal peace' because they were never at formal war. For the Komarrans it was -all- just business as usual. For the Barrayarans, it was unfinished business. I can see an argument that Barrayar has an actual right to their > Komarr-side jump point. ***Mmm. Yes. And I do agree that the Barrayarans should have sought an alternative to military invasion and occupation if possible - a significant military presence by the jump-station and in Komarr orbit etc., but we don't know that they didn't, and any real talk along those lines would have meant discussion of issues touching on reparations and tariff levels - which textev, I suggest, indicates as not having happened. > Over the course of the thread I was particularly struck by Gwynne raising > > > the issue of Vorkosigan Vashnoi, and Tel continuing to avoid it, while > > > harping on the Solstice Massacre, suppressions of 'democratic revolt' on > > > Komarr &c.. > > >> >> ... it's a Cetagandan war crime. Credit/blame should go where it's due. >> It's > > not reasonable to pin it on Komarr, just as it's not reasonable to go >> around > > blaming the Germans for Japanese war crimes even if they were on the same > > side. > > >> I believe that nations and planets have the fundamental right to > > self-determination and that governments are made legitimate by the consent > > of the governed. These are not radical or controversial opinions to hold > > outside the List. > > >> I do think that crimes that are ongoing at the time of the books and the > > protagonists are doing nothing about are more interesting and worth > > discussing than crimes that happened eighty to a hundred years ago >> offscreen > > that we don't know even half the context for. > > *** Yes Vorkosigan Vashnoi was primarily a Cetagandan war crime, but as the -whole- war is what the Komarrans traded on, it's there in the Barrayaran ledgers. And in any case, my point, which suffered snippage, was that in presenting (in your posts, collectively, here and at LJ) far greater and more frequent distress about a (small) massacre *by* Barrayarans than a (far greater) massacre *of* Barrayarans, you exhibit a pattern of, hmm, Vorphobia isn't right, let's just neutrally call it asymmetry ; which I find in various other of your arguments, as per Mehta's credibility and ethics vs Cordelia's political and other abuse by Betans. Fundamental right to self-determination for "nations and planets", hmm. We're back to analogies, but Germany wasn't given such rights in 1945 ; nor Japan. Occupation, constitutional rewritings, de-Nazification &c. Most of the troops have gone now, and most of the formal oversight of domestic politics ; but the McDonalds remain, and the Starbucks have been added, with many many iron ties to the US-ian economic model, while defence/military policy remains strongly inhibited and externally managed. Are we repining? And it isn't radical or controversial to believe that there are and must be limits to those rights, for all sorts of reasons. Also, rights may be lost as well as gained -- as people who hold guns to other people's heads lose their rights to freedom of action and self-determination of various kinds. The Komarran polity hasn't been executed, but it did get arrested and incarcerated. I take the point of your last para. quoted above, and in some ways don't disagree, but we don't know that much about many contexts of the ongoing 'crimes' either, which you largely infer as necessary to a 'full reality' of which textev is only a sliver, and the whole 'crimes ignored by protagonists' riff turns in large measure on your definitions of what is moral, what in/defensible, and what desirable politically, all of which often ain't mine. Plus, as pretty much all on-topic list discussion goes to show, the shaping of the present by the past is almost another way of describing the Vorkosiverse series tout court, as spirals of plot reveal spirals of history, causality, damnation, and redemption. So the historical crimes (mostly by as well as against Vor, but latterly by Cetaganda and Komarr and JW also) rather matter. And it's not as if one is asking, say, a Serbian nationalist what the problem with Kosovo is and receiving an answer that begins 'In 1386 ...' -- much of this stuff is not yet beyond living memory on Barrayar, and most of what is has only slipped into being so within the last quarter-century ; it still presses as hard on their present as WW2 on ours. Well, I don't feel that either the Cetagandan or the Barrayaran government > > is fundamentally all that legitimate when you get down to it. Or that > > there's much to choose between the two in the time period we're > > discussing... yes, Giaja the elder's goons were bad news, but was trading > > him in for Yuri really a step up? > > *** Yes, plainly. Even Yuri didn't nuke anyone. Plus, he may have been a mad Vorbarra goon but he was their mad Vorbarra goon ; charity begins at home. And looking at how legitimate governments behave the world over, I don't think such legitimacy is a panacea, moral or otherwise, nor necessarily an objective to be sought for all at any cost. In general yes, certainly, greater freedom and security, and fuller rights with the means to enjoy them for all, are high ideals and most worthy objectives, politically and otherwise, but whether mass democracy in anything resembling its current forms is an optimal or even in some ways acceptable answer/strategy I take leave to doubt. Hence my unwillingness to concede your democratic imperatives - esp. given that we're oomph thousand years in the future and have things like wormhole astrocartography in the mix. [And how do you -- how does anyone on the List -- respond, btw, to Lois's statement (in a letter to Sylvia Kelso, in 'Letterspace') that she writes "psychological allegory"? We sure and all find referents for that allegory, eh?] -- John Lennard, MA DPhil. (Oxon.), MA (WU) Director of Studies in English, St Catharine's College General editor, Humanities-E-Books Genre Fiction Sightlines and Monographs www.humanities-ebooks.co.uk ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:28:03 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: [LMB] NHITN: Rising Sea Levels Imperial New Jersy To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 linky: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40377584/ns/technology_and_science-the_new_york_times/ It's not London and Ivan isn't down a well, but it's a start.... busy royce ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:31:13 -0800 From: Jeff Shultz Subject: Re: [LMB] NHITN: Rising Sea Levels Imperial New Jersy To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 "imperil" I think is the word. Goodness knows New Jersey would suck as an empire... On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Royce McDaniels wrote: > linky: > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40377584/ns/technology_and_science-the_new_york_times/ > > It's not London and Ivan isn't down a well, but it's a start.... > > busy royce > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ > Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 > Get my blog on RSS at > http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 > Get my blog's comments on RSS at > http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to jeffshultz@gmail.com > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Jeff Shultz http://www.shultzinfosystems.com A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 19:30:09 -0000 From: "Philip Cass" Subject: [LMB] Bujold mentioned on penny arcade To: "'Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.'" Message-ID: <002901cb8da0$56a419f0$03ec4dd0$@org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Penny arcade is one of the oldest gaming-themed webcomics still extant. With each update, Tycho (the "words" guy, as opposed to the "art" guy) normally does mini-reviews of games / geek things that he's come across that week. Today, one of the things was linking to a copy of the Baen CD: "The Miles Vorkosigan Saga, which the aforementioned link represents almost in its entirety, constitutes some of the best, greatest fun I have ever had with the printed page." . "By the end of your journey through this series, I'm certain you'll buy some of these books out of tearful gratitude, even though you nominally already "own" them. You may decide you need enough books to build a house, so that you can live inside. This seems likely, also." It seems he's a fan ;) Perma-link: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/11/26/ ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:44:08 -0800 (PST) From: Marcia Subject: Re: [LMB] NHITN: Rising Sea Levels Imperial New Jersy To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <146951.91089.qm@web114118.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I don't know where you live Royce.? I live in New Jersey and I read this article in the NYTimes this morning.? The article is about NORFOLK VIRGINIA, which is several hundred miles south of New Jersey. ? And not to be picky, but as a New Jerseyite, there's nothing Imperial here.? I suppose you meant Imperil. ? And for my education, can you please tell me what NHITN stand for. ? Marcia --- On Fri, 11/26/10, Royce McDaniels wrote: From: Royce McDaniels Subject: [LMB] NHITN: Rising Sea Levels Imperial New Jersy To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 2:28 PM linky: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40377584/ns/technology_and_science-the_new_york_times/ It's not London and Ivan isn't down a well, but it's a start.... busy royce ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mnfp73@yahoo.com Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:49:28 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] NHITN: Rising Sea Levels Imperial New Jersy To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sigh. NHITN stands for Nexus History In The News. Yes, it is "imperil". Norfolk, not Newark. Virginnia, not New Jersey. It's been a confusing morning (not the drugs for once, just too much to do and never enough time.) sorry, guys. will try to do better in future. apologetic royce On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Marcia wrote: > I don't know where you live Royce. I live in New Jersey and I read this > article in the NYTimes this morning. The article is about NORFOLK VIRGINIA, > which is several hundred miles south of New Jersey. > > And not to be picky, but as a New Jerseyite, there's nothing Imperial > here. I suppose you meant Imperil. > > And for my education, can you please tell me what NHITN stand for. > > Marcia > > --- On Fri, 11/26/10, Royce McDaniels wrote: > > > From: Royce McDaniels > Subject: [LMB] NHITN: Rising Sea Levels Imperial New Jersy > To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." < > lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk> > Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 2:28 PM > > > linky: > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40377584/ns/technology_and_science-the_new_york_times/ > > It's not London and Ivan isn't down a well, but it's a start.... > > busy royce > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ > Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 > Get my blog on RSS at > http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 > Get my blog's comments on RSS at > http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mnfp73@yahoo.com > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to roycemcdaniels158@gmail.com > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:56:17 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] Bujold mentioned on penny arcade To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 awww....how sweet! wikki-ing royce On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Philip Cass wrote: > Penny arcade is one of the oldest gaming-themed webcomics still extant. > With each update, Tycho (the "words" guy, as opposed to the "art" guy) > normally does mini-reviews of games / geek things that he's come across > that > week. Today, one of the things was linking to a copy of the Baen CD: > > > > "The Miles Vorkosigan Saga, which the aforementioned link represents almost > in its entirety, constitutes some of the best, greatest fun I have ever had > with the printed page." > > > > . > > > > "By the end of your journey through this series, I'm certain you'll buy > some > of these books out of tearful gratitude, even though you nominally already > "own" them. You may decide you need enough books to build a house, so that > you can live inside. This seems likely, also." > > > > It seems he's a fan ;) > > > > Perma-link: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/11/26/ > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to roycemcdaniels158@gmail.com > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:57:45 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: [LMB] OT: AKICOTL: Need help setting up and running a MediaWikki Wikki To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 pointers to good web resources on how to do this, how it works, greatly appreciated. Need it for the comic flood of vorkosigan and other universe fanfic and my own newfic contributions on the blog. busy busy royce ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:00:46 +0100 From: Anke Wehner Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: AKICOTL: Need help setting up and running a MediaWikki Wikki To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 26 November 2010 20:57, Royce McDaniels wrote: > pointers to good web resources on how to do this, how it works, greatly > appreciated. Need it for the comic flood of vorkosigan and other universe > fanfic and my own newfic contributions on the blog. Have you checked http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Installation_guide already? Anke -- http://ankewehner.de http://ankewehner.etsy.com ------------------------------ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold End of Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 239 ******************************************** From lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Fri Nov 26 15:53:14 2010 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 20:52:39 +0000 From: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk Reply-To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 240 Send Lois-Bujold mailing list submissions to lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk You can reach the person managing the list at lois-bujold-owner@lists.herald.co.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Lois-Bujold digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: OT: AKICOTL: Need help setting up and running a MediaWikki Wikki (Royce McDaniels) 2. Re: LMB OT: Happy Cryoburn squee - No spoilers (Royce McDaniels) 3. Wow! We make the main SJG email along with Baen! (Royce McDaniels) 4. Re: Komarr (WAS:- One Sentence from "Indulgence in Death") (Royce McDaniels) 5. Re: Barrayaran Historical Secrets, etc (Royce McDaniels) 6. Re: Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 216 (Royce McDaniels) 7. Re: Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans (Royce McDaniels) 8. Re: Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans (Royce McDaniels) 9. Re: Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans (CatMtn@aol.com) 10. Re: Komarr (WAS:- One Sentence from "Indulgence in Death") (Jeff Shultz) 11. Re: Bujold reading at Dreamhaven Dec. 3 (Judy R. Johnson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:03:07 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: AKICOTL: Need help setting up and running a MediaWikki Wikki To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I used the DreamHost one-click installer and have the wikki up and working fine. I just have no clue how to edit it and add new pages and link to them. I know it isn't HTML but has its own syntax and the online resources I've seen are all impenetrable. thus the cry for help. bewildered royce On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Anke Wehner wrote: > On 26 November 2010 20:57, Royce McDaniels > wrote: > > pointers to good web resources on how to do this, how it works, greatly > > appreciated. Need it for the comic flood of vorkosigan and other universe > > fanfic and my own newfic contributions on the blog. > > Have you checked > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Installation_guide already? > > Anke > > -- > http://ankewehner.de > http://ankewehner.etsy.com > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to roycemcdaniels158@gmail.com > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:04:40 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] LMB OT: Happy Cryoburn squee - No spoilers To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ditto, recuperating royce On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 12:03 AM, Kevin Kennedy wrote: > > Hoot, Hoot. Enjoy the book, hope your recuperation goes well. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:08:52 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: [LMB] Wow! We make the main SJG email along with Baen! To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 linky: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/a/2010-11-26 text: Daily Illuminator For Nov. 26, 2010: Catching Up With Miles http://www.sjgames.com/ill/a/2010-11-26 [image: http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/vorkosigan/img/cover_sm.jpg ] Are you a fan of Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga, but haven't kept up with the series? Or do you love space opera, and have been thinking you should check this Miles guy out? Did you see our Vorkosigan Saga Sourcebook and RPG ( http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/vorkosigan/ ) and wonder what the background was all about? Baen has a deal for you! Baen Books, Ms. Bujold's publisher, has made the entire Vorkosigan Saga -- including the newest, Cryoburn -- free to download from their site ( http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/24-CryoburnCD/CryoburnCD/index.htm ) . They've even gone to the trouble of making the text available in multiple formats, from HTML to RTF to several mobile reader formats. (The introduction indicates the files may be destined for a physical CD, but there's no obvious way to download it all in a single click.) Baen is well-known for using the "here's a free book; if you like it, buy the print version" promotions, so download the books, give them a read -- and if you like them, consider buying a couple print copies. -- Paul Chapman -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:15:35 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] Komarr (WAS:- One Sentence from "Indulgence in Death") To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 so did James White. About 10% of any given Sector General space hospital novel was boilerplate description of how the place worked, how the aliens were classified, and so forth. New readers needed it, veteran readers like moi happily skipped it to get to the good stuff (like WHY the alien wanted to remove Pathologist Murchison's skin...) Diagnostician Royce On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:20 AM, James M. BRYANT G4CLF wrote: > Jeff Shultz quotes Komarr, Ch. 17: > > [snip] > >Lois was mildly plagiarizing herself there... > > Is using the same or similar words to describe the same or similar > phenomena plagiarism? I would call it style. > > Murray Leinster reused whole paragraphs in different stories. > > [snip] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:16:51 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] Barrayaran Historical Secrets, etc To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 obBujold: He's a Frozen Stiff, actually. :) innocent Royce (who must dust under his bed and change Jimmy's battery AGAIN...) On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:25 AM, James M. BRYANT G4CLF wrote: > Mitch Miller asks:- > > >Where is Jimmy Hoffa? > > Under Royce's bed (so he claims). > > James > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to roycemcdaniels158@gmail.com > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:20:24 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 216 To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think it may be how Cetaganda expands its power base. Saves the trouble of locating a habitable world and terraforming it to minimum survivable levels (apparently necessary on many Nexus worlds); let the local yokels do it, then land the infantry and take over. Leibensraum (living room) one of the major causes of war on our little world historically. Only Herself knows for sure right now. Maybe the Ivan book (Titled "IYI" in my personal lexicography for "Ivan, You Idiot") will tell us! impatiently waiting royce On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 8:52 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > [snip] > > you know, I've always wondered why the Cetagandans chose to attack > Barrayar. They only have one wormhole, so they're really just a little > backwater planet. Is it rich in some resource (oil, gold, jewels? organics?) > that another planet would want? otherwise, it's kind of like attacking > Madagascar or some place like that. > > > > -becca > > > > Maybe the emperor wanted someplace to go for his summer holidays? > > Gwynne > \ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:25:01 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 see the upcoming Vorkosigan universe fanfic The Undying Fountain at TWS for details. I have it all worked out in GURPS terms, heh heh. GURPSing royce On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Judy R. Johnson wrote: > [snip] >> >> *** Implicitly, it's there from the beginning -- else how could Barrayar >> have found the future Sergyar before the Betan Survey did? >> >> If they found something useful, it'd make the news (unless, as in Ezar's >> reign, it was suppressed for military/paranoia reasons); decade of fruitless >> trials don't. A good hit is likely a once-in-a-generation thing, if that. >> >> Ta, L. > > > ==================================== >> NEW from JRJ> Ah. Yes, of course. I feel foolish. >> >> Er, so tell, Watson - who's running the Survey now? And in future - >> Nikki? >> >> -- >> Entwife Judy >> Who doubts if the status quo is ever well enough to be let alone > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:32:04 -0800 From: Royce McDaniels Subject: Re: [LMB] Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 agreed. During the invasion, hidden bunkers servicing a few blockade runners and/or third party ships pretending to trade with the cetas while smuggling to the resistance are what I envision. Perhaps right at the end a few full on warships are available, some perhaps captured in a Tet-offensive-like attack on a Ceta spaceport, adding to the impetus to get the cetas to give up and go home. geepers i'm having flashbacks of the evacuation of the US embassy in Saigon but with ceta shuttles from their embassy to orbiting carriers as the victorious Barrayaran guerillas pour into Vorbar Sultana.... the shuttles being dumped off to burn up in the atmosphere to make room for new ones rather than pushed off into the ocean....wow the parallels are scary. historically boggled royce On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Tel wrote: > [snip] > > An impressive theory that makes a lot of sense. We see systems like Escobar > allowing military ships through (like the Dendarii!) but on strict > conditions. We know the Komarrans didn't permit military passage for cash, > but rather for trade concessions. > > I still really don't see the Barrayaran rebels being able to sustain a navy > of actual warships. Warships take serious infrastructure. Smuggling craft, > maybe... > > -Tel > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit my blog at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/rmcdaniels158 Get my blog on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=rss2 Get my blog's comments on RSS at http://www.roycemcdaniels158.com/thewalrussays/?feed=comments-rss2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 15:37:43 EST From: CatMtn@aol.com Subject: Re: [LMB] Things I'd Like to Tell the Komarrans To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk Message-ID: <3810b.2c682dd9.3a217497@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 11/26/2010 3:32:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, roycemcdaniels158@gmail.com writes: >geepers i'm having flashbacks of the evacuation of the US embassy in Saigon but with ceta shuttles from their embassy to orbiting carriers as the victorious Barrayaran guerillas pour into Vorbar Sultana.... the shuttles being dumped off to burn up in the atmosphere to make room for new ones rather than pushed off into the ocean....wow the parallels are scary. MD: I'm thinking more about the chaos that would have resulted if the US hadn't controlled the Panama Canal during WW II. And IIRC, the Suez canal was important in both WW I and WW II, among other similarly controllable passages. Mary ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:39:05 -0800 From: Jeff Shultz Subject: Re: [LMB] Komarr (WAS:- One Sentence from "Indulgence in Death") To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Royce McDaniels wrote: > so did James White. About 10% of any given Sector General space hospital > novel was boilerplate description of how the place worked, how the aliens > were classified, and so forth. New readers needed it, veteran readers like > moi happily skipped it to get to the good stuff (like WHY the alien wanted > to remove Pathologist Murchison's skin...) Well, so did Surgeon Conway... oh wait, those are her clothes, not her skin.... :-) -- Jeff Shultz http://www.shultzinfosystems.com A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train. ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:52:11 -0800 From: "Judy R. Johnson" Subject: Re: [LMB] Bujold reading at Dreamhaven Dec. 3 To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Message-ID: <4CF01DFB.9000107@fidalgo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Both camera and note taking. Entwife Judy On 11/26/2010 10:48 AM, Tel wrote: > On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Jeff Shultz wrote: > >> Okay, who in Minneapolis has a good camera, tripod, and maybe even an >> external microphone...? >> >> > What we actually need is someone with a pencil and notebook to ask her how > to spell all the names... ;) > > -Tel > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to jrj@fidalgo.net > Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > ------------------------------ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold@lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold End of Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 66, Issue 240 ********************************************