SOILS-L: 199611XX
is the compilation of discussion during Nov 96
via AB4EL Web Digests @ SunSITE
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Fri Nov 1 02:04 EST 1996
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:51:32 -0600
Message-Id: <199611010651.AA15142@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 624
Contents:
Re: New list member introduction (frankst@deakin.edu.au (Frank Stagnitti))
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:48:46 +1100
From: frankst@deakin.edu.au (Frank Stagnitti)
Subject: Re: New list member introduction
>Australian Research Council Funded Honours and Postgraduate Projects in
>
>MODELLING & MONITORING TRANSPORT OF WATER AND CONTAMINANTS THROUGH SOILS
>
>Australia produces one of the highest volume of agricultural, industrial
>and municipal wastes per capita in the world. Increasingly the public are
>demanding statutory authorities investigate environmentally sound methods
>of land application. Recent experiments suggest that industrial & farm
>chemicals (such as fertilisers) and pesticides may reach groundwater in
>much shorter times than current models predict. These findings indicate we
>may be significantly under-estimating the risk of groundwater
>contamination. A new and innovative experimental program funded under a
>large ARC grant is proposed to study heterogeneous solute transport in
>soils. The data will be mathematically modelled for the purposes of
>understanding the key physical mechanisms controlling transport and
>developing predictive tools for practical applications. This research will
>have important implications for the sustainable environmental management of
>soils and for improving chemical application and irrigation schedules.
>
>A range of Honours and Postgraduate scholarships are available for 1997.
>(Post-doctoral candidates are also encouraged to apply). Honours students
>receive a tax-free stipend of around $4000. Postgraduates students will be
>offered an attractive, competitive, industry-based, tax-free stipend
>depending on qualifications. Candidates should have a good background in
>environmental chemistry and/or computer and mathematical modelling. For
>further information please contact:
>
>Dr Frank Stagnitti
>School of Aquatic Science & Natural Resources Management
>Deakin University
>PO Box 423, Warrnambool, 3280. Australia.
>ph. +61 (0)55 633 535
>fax. +61 (0)55 633 462
>email. frankst@deakin.edu.au
>http://www.cm.deakin.edu.au/~frankst/
>(View this home page for further details)
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Dr Frank Stagnitti
>School of Computing and Mathematics, Deakin University,
>P.O. Box 423, Warrnambool, Vic. 3280 AUSTRALIA
>Email: frankst@deakin.edu.au
>Voice: +61 (0)55 633 535
>WWW: http://www.cm.deakin.edu.au/~frankst
>
>"Imagination is more important than knowledge." (Albert Einstein)
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Frank Stagnitti
School of Computing and Mathematics, Deakin University,
P.O. Box 423, Warrnambool, Vic. 3280 AUSTRALIA
Email: frankst@deakin.edu.au
Voice: +61 (0)55 633 535
WWW: http://www.cm.deakin.edu.au/~frankst
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." (Albert Einstein)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Sat Nov 2 02:28 EST 1996
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:52:31 -0600
Message-Id: <199611020652.AA12087@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 625
Contents:
EGS: biological processes in the unsaturated soil ("A. Tietema" <ATIETEMA@fgb.frw.uva.nl>)
how unsubscribe? (Yvonne Savio <ydsavio@ucdavis.edu>)
Re: how unsubscribe? ("Tommy (Tom) L. Zimmerman" <zimmerman.4@osu.edu>)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:22:21 MET-1
From: "A. Tietema" <ATIETEMA@fgb.frw.uva.nl>
Subject: EGS: biological processes in the unsaturated soil
Dear collegues.
>From 21-25 April 1997, the 22nd General Assembly of the European
Geophysical Society (EGS) will be held at the Austria Center Vienna.
The assembly will be open to all scientists of all nations.
As convenor, I want to call your attention to the
symposium HS5.7: "biological processes in the unsaturated soil". A
short description of the symposium is given below. I invite you to
consider participation in the meetings and to present your current
research at Vienna. In addition, I would like to ask you to
forward this message to researchers in your department/institute, who
would be interested to present results in this symposium.
Please note that the deadline for submitting abstracts is 15
December, 1996.
Information on this sypposium (i.e. submission of abstracts for oral
presentations and posters) and on related symposia within the same
session (HS5: "hydrological sciences 5: flow and transport in
unsaturated soils") can be found at:
http://www.mpae.gwdg.de/EGS/egsga/egsga.htm
HS5.7 Biological processes in the unsaturated soil
Subthemes:
- Regulation of microbial activity by the physical/chemical
environment
- Effects of soil fauna and organic matter on soil properties
- Redox regimes in the unsaturated zone and their related
processes
This session focusses on the interface between soil physics, soil
chemistry and soil biology. Aspects of all three disciplines are
strongly interrelated in determining transport processes in soils.
Biological processes and organic matter dynamics have a profound
effect on physical and chemical soil properties, like structure,
aggregate stability and hydraulic conductivity. Also, the physical and
chemical environment regulate biological processes. For instance,
biological denitrification is likely to occur if nitrate, organic
carbon and anaerobic conditions are present at the same time and
place. A specific example of the interaction between the three
disciplines are redox regimes in the unsaturated zone and their
consequences for the biological processes. Presentations on
the three mentioned subjects in relation to the general topic of HS5
(Flow and Transport in Soils and Aquifers) are welcomed.
Albert Tietema
Dr. Albert Tietema
Physical Geography and Soil Science
University of Amsterdam
Nieuwe Prinsengracht 130
1018 VZ Amsterdam
The Netherlands
Tel. +31-20-5257458
Fax. +31-20-5257431
Email. atietema@fgb.frw.uva.nl
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:28:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Yvonne Savio <ydsavio@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: how unsubscribe?
what's the listserve address so I can unsubscribe? Thanks
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 16:11:55 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tommy (Tom) L. Zimmerman" <zimmerman.4@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: how unsubscribe?
I believe the address is listserv@unl.edu
No subject
In the body of message, say unsubscribe soils-l yourfirstname yourlastname
There are no numbers in the address. The l is a lower case L although I
believe case does not matter.
At 02:31 PM 11/1/96 -0600, you wrote:
>what's the listserve address so I can unsubscribe? Thanks
>
>
>
**********************************************************************
* Tommy (Tom) L. Zimmerman, Associate Professor *
* Environmental Resources Management *
* The Ohio State University Agricultural Technical Institute *
* 1328 Dover Road; Wooster, OH 44691-4000 *
* Voice: 330-264-3911, ext. 1325; FAX: 330-262-7634 *
* E-Mail: tzimmerm@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu OR zimmerman.4@osu.edu *
**********************************************************************
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Sun Nov 3 02:06 EST 1996
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:52:42 -0600
Message-Id: <199611030652.AA21219@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 626
Contents:
Re: Field capacities in the Amazon basin (Tom Thomson <tomt@teleport.com>)
Putting the "P" back into Paddock (Philip Clarke <pclarke@waite.adelaide.edu.au>)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 08:49:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Thomson <tomt@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Field capacities in the Amazon basin
I was wondering if the FC was more a function of depth of soil than capacity
per uit of soil???
tom
At 03:16 AM 10/30/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I wonder if anyone knows about field capacities of the soils
>in the Amazon basin. References would be great!
>
>Regards,
>
>Axel
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Axel Kleidon
> kleidon@dkrz.de
> Max-Planck-Institut fuer Meteorologie
> Bundesstrasse 55
> 20146 Hamburg
> F.R. Germany
> Ph: (+49) (40) 41173-117
> Fax: (+49) (40) 41173-298
>
>
>
Tom Thomson Northwest Agricultural Consulting
Dallas, Oregon 97338 Phone/FAX 503-623-7858
"The only difference between a problem and a solution is that
everone understands the solution." Charles Kettering
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:02:00 +1030 (CDT)
From: Philip Clarke <pclarke@waite.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Putting the "P" back into Paddock
> From: Jenni Metcalfe <jenni.econnect@b022.aone.net.au>
>
> Cooperative Research Centre for Waste and Pollution
> Executive Director, Dr David Garman
> Phone (02) 9385-4886
> Fax (02) 9662-1971
>
>
> Putting the "P" back in Paddock
> The MEDLI solution
> Wednesday October 30 at 11.00 am
>
> A new approach to turn waste nutrients into ground-enriching fertiliser and
> help prevent the pollution of Australia's water resources was launched in
> Canberra today (Wednesday).
>
> MEDLI, a new computer-based management tool, helps managers of piggeries,
> abattoirs, feedlots, dairies, food processing factories and sewage treatment
> plants to turn the nutrients in their waste products into a profit.
>
> MEDLI Project Leader, Mr Ted Gardner, said managers of these intensive
> operations were keen to use environmentally sustainable practices to make
> sure that their waste nutrients didn't end up in the nation's rivers and
> groundwater supplies.
>
> "With MEDLI, Australia's food producers can help prevent pollution and
> fertilise their paddocks," he said. "This means recycling water and wastes
> in a way which protects the environment, while reducing operating costs and
> generating better profits for the rural industry."
>
> "We're turning a potential problem into an economic benefit. This is a
> win-win outcome for industries and the environment"
>
> MEDLI (Model for Effluent Disposal using Land Irrigation) is a computer
> software program that is the brainchild of the Cooperative Research Centre
> for Waste Management and Pollution Control (CRC) and the Queensland
> Departments of Primary Industries and Natural Resources.
>
> "MEDLI offers a complete system for intensive rural industries, food
> processing factories and sewage treatment plants wishing to irrigate and
> fertilise land with their nutrient-rich waste material," Mr Gardner said.
>
> "Just about everything is taken into account, from the amount of waste
> produced, to the design of treatment lagoons, to the rate at which waste
> water can be irrigated onto pastures and crops.
>
> "MEDLI helps ensure that the quality of nearby water resources are not at
> risk from the operation.
>
> "This is important for government regulators, managers and environmental
> consultants, and can help resolve land use conflicts over new developments."
>
> MEDLI was launched at Parliament House today by John Anderson, Minister for
> Primary Industries and Energy.
>
> ../2
> "MEDLI is a real advance in making Australia a more efficient and
> environmentally-sound country. Australian industry has a vital interest in
> protecting the land and water resources, and this computer software program
> will help them do so," Mr Anderson said.
>
> The MEDLI project is a joint venture between the CRC and the Queensland
> Departments of Primary Industries and Natural Resources. The Queensland
> Departments have received major funding support from the Land and Water
> Resources Research and Development Corporation (LWRRDC) for this research.
>
> Deputy Chair of LWRRDC, Mr Don Blackmore, said intensive rural industries in
> the Murray-Darling Basin area produce nitrogen and phosphorus in their
> wastes equivalent to the sewage from a human population of about 5 million.
>
> "Most of this doesn't flow into our rivers, and no-one wants a repetition of
> the Darling River's 1991/2 blue-green algal disaster," he said.
>
> "MEDLI is one more important step helping to prevent these nutrients from
> getting into our rivers and causing algal blooms and possible human health
> problems."
>
> Other organisations who have supported the MEDLI project are the Urban Water
> Research Association of Australia and the Pig Research and Development
> Corporation.
>
> MEDLI software has been commercialised by the Australian software company,
> WP Software Pty Ltd of Canberra, which has agencies in south east Asia, the
> USA and Europe.
>
> Media are invited to the launch of MEDLI at Parliament House in Room 1R1, at
> 11 am on Wednesday October 30. Speakers will be:
> Mr Ian Kiernan AO, Chair of CRC for Waste Management and Pollution Control
> Mr John Anderson, Minister for Primary Industries and Energy
> Mr Don Blackmore, Deputy Chair, Land and Water Resources Research and
> Development Corporation
> Mr Ted Gardner, Queensland Department of Natural Resources
>
> These people will also be available for interview at the launch on mobile
> phone: 0411 883 418
>
> Broadcast quality video footage of irrigation systems at a sewage treatment
> plant, a dairy and a piggery is available to TV stations. A more detailed
> fact sheet is also available.
> Please contact Jenni Metcalfe, phone 07 3367 2646, fax 07 3217 6376, mobile
> phone 014 916 372.
>
> For media information:
> Toss Gascoigne, phone 06 257 2891, mobile phone: 0411 883 418
>
> For information about MEDLI:
> Howard Bowland
> WP Software, Canberra
> phone 06 253 1844, fax 06 253 1847
> Jenni Metcalfe
> Senior Consultant
> Econnect - environmental and science communication
>
> PO Box 464
> Paddington QLD 4064
> Phone (07) 3367 2646
> Fax (07) 3217 6376
> Mobile 014 91 6372
>
>
--
Life isn't meaningless it just has a poor signal to noise ratio.
--
Dr. Philip Clarke, Soil Science, Waite Solid-State NMR Facility
University of Adelaide, PMB 1, Glen Osmond, SA, Australia, 5064
Ans/Fax +618 8303 7399, Ph +618 8303 7385 pclarke@waite.adelaide.edu.au
URL http://www.waite.adelaide.edu.au/~pclarke
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Tue Nov 5 15:59 EST 1996
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:46:06 -0600
Message-Id: <199611052046.AA20936@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 627
Contents:
(blau-blau@lobo-guara.eag.unb.br)
Date: Wed, 16 May 1990 18:39:06 +0000
From: blau-blau@lobo-guara.eag.unb.br
Subject:
Brasil, 11/05/96
I'm satsfact to be accept in your list. I'm a
student of Bras=EDlia University, in depart of Agronomy.
I will reply so as possyble any manssagens.
Thanks, for your hospitality
Luis
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Wed Nov 6 16:07 EST 1996
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:52:05 -0600
Message-Id: <199611062052.AA27655@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 628
Contents:
presentation (jsmalty@lobo-guara.eag.unb.br)
New netter ("WOUTER DE LANGE - STUDENT" <WOUTER@wwg3.uovs.ac.za>)
hi for everybody! (cruz@lobo-guara.eag.unb.br)
Soils-l: Introduction (chitz@geo.unizh.ch (Christian Hitz))
Re: Soils-l: Introduction (Dean Stewart <stewartd@tui.lincoln.ac.nz>)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:20:09 +0000
From: jsmalty@lobo-guara.eag.unb.br
Subject: presentation
Brasilia(BR), 96/11/05
I'm so happy to be inclued in your list.
I will receive your mensages and talk to my friends.
I'm student of Brasilia University, where i do Agromomy. My friend
Luis write for you before me, and we, every stundants of my
University, still learn so much with you.
Thanks for attention,
Juliano Malty.
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:44:12 GMT2
From: "WOUTER DE LANGE - STUDENT" <WOUTER@wwg3.uovs.ac.za>
Subject: New netter
Hi to all.
Please excuse, but I am not a soil expert. I was planning to join
your list as a silent "spy". My area of interest concerns soil
pathogens (biological control in the rhizosphere). But a lot of what
is happening in the soil world is unknown to me. If you would allow
me, I would like to remain a silent reader. I promise to behave and
only to raise questions when I'm very desperate. i hope I have not
overstepped any boundaries.
Wouter de Lange
Wouter de Lange
Dept Microbiology and Biochemistry
University of the Orange Free State
PO Box 339
Bloemfontein
9300
South Africa
+27-51-401-2124 (Voice)
+27-51-482004 (Fax)
wouter@wwg3.uovs.ac.za ...risen
Date: Thu, 17 May 1990 10:10:22 +0000
From: cruz@lobo-guara.eag.unb.br
Subject: hi for everybody!
I am so happy to be included in your list. But I'm sorry that not be
a expert in soils, I'm only a graduation student of Agronomy in Brasilia
University. My friends Juliano and Luis writed for you before me.
I hope to reply your message as soon as possible.
Thanks in advance
Aurelio Souza da Cruz (cruz@lobo-guara.eag.unb.br)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:19:59 +0200
From: chitz@geo.unizh.ch (Christian Hitz)
Subject: Soils-l: Introduction
Dear SOILS-L Readers
As a geographer I have just started my PhD studies on soil science.
I would like to investigate soil organic matter dynamics (SOM) in forest
soils using field and laboratory experiments on disturbed (artificially
layered) soil columns.
The main goal of my work is to learn more about effects of temperature
changes and nitrogen immissions on SOM in hardwood forests of Switzerland.
At a later stage I think of comparing the results with models.
Now I am still in a conceptual phase of my work and I would like to come
into contact with other scientists, working on the subject of soil organic
matter, who might have experiences with the use of soil columns in the
field or maybe work on a similar topic.
I will be happy for any contributions or references.
Thank you for your attention
Yours sincerely Christian Hitz
*******************************************************
Christian Hitz
Geographisches Institut der Universitaet Zuerich-Irchel
University of Zurich / Dept. of Geography
Physical Division / Soil Science
Winterthurerstr. 190
CH - 8057 Zuerich
Switzerland
phone: ++41-(0)1-257-51-14
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 08:43:18 +1300
From: Dean Stewart <stewartd@tui.lincoln.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Soils-l: Introduction
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 08:22:01 -0600
From: chitz@geo.unizh.ch (Christian Hitz)
Subject: Soils-l: Introduction
To: Multiple recipients of list <soils-l@unl.edu>
Reply-to: soils-l@unl.edu
Dear SOILS-L Readers
As a geographer I have just started my PhD studies on soil science.
I would like to investigate soil organic matter dynamics (SOM) in forest
soils using field and laboratory experiments on disturbed (artificially
layered) soil columns.
The main goal of my work is to learn more about effects of temperature
changes and nitrogen immissions on SOM in hardwood forests of Switzerland.
At a later stage I think of comparing the results with models.
Now I am still in a conceptual phase of my work and I would like to come
into contact with other scientists, working on the subject of soil organic
matter, who might have experiences with the use of soil columns in the
field or maybe work on a similar topic.
I will be happy for any contributions or references.
Thank you for your attention
Yours sincerely Christian Hitz
*******************************************************
Christian Hitz
Geographisches Institut der Universitaet Zuerich-Irchel
University of Zurich / Dept. of Geography
Physical Division / Soil Science
Winterthurerstr. 190
CH - 8057 Zuerich
Switzerland
phone: ++41-(0)1-257-51-14
Christian,
Why not use undisturbed soil cores ?? (You may also need to seal the
edge of them to prevent edge flow.) Unless your interest is in
"artificially layered soil columns" it would give you a more
realistic result.
-------------------------------------------------------
Dr Dean P.C. Stewart
AgResearch
c/- Department of Soil Science
Lincoln University
P.O. Box 84
Canterbury
New Zealand
Phone: (3) 3253 888
Fax: (3) 3253 607
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Thu Nov 7 21:32 EST 1996
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 20:18:27 -0600
Message-Id: <199611080218.AA00296@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 629
Contents:
Re: New netter ("Tommy (Tom) L. Zimmerman" <zimmerman.4@osu.edu>)
Universal Soil Loss Equaltion Question (bwilson@waite.adelaide.edu.au)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:05:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tommy (Tom) L. Zimmerman" <zimmerman.4@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: New netter
Don't feel intimidated about asking questions. That is the purpose of this
list group -- to learn. Keep the questions to a reasonable number. Also,
you can contribute to the group as you find out and discover more in the
world of the soil rhizosphere. You mention that your background is not
strong in soils, so feel free to bounce off this group some of your ideas
about how to research the soil rhizoshpere. Someone out there may be able
to help steer you so you don't make a big mistake and have to start over. I
find this particular kind of help very valuable and a big asset to these
kind of list groups. So, have fun being a "silent spy" and once in a while
be a little "vocal."
Tom Zimmerman, Ohio State University, Wooster, OH
At 03:42 AM 11/6/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi to all.
>
>Please excuse, but I am not a soil expert. I was planning to join
>your list as a silent "spy". My area of interest concerns soil
>pathogens (biological control in the rhizosphere). But a lot of what
>is happening in the soil world is unknown to me. If you would allow
>me, I would like to remain a silent reader. I promise to behave and
>only to raise questions when I'm very desperate. i hope I have not
>overstepped any boundaries.
>
>Wouter de Lange
>
>Wouter de Lange
>Dept Microbiology and Biochemistry
>University of the Orange Free State
>PO Box 339
>Bloemfontein
>9300
>South Africa
>+27-51-401-2124 (Voice)
>+27-51-482004 (Fax)
>wouter@wwg3.uovs.ac.za ...risen
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 09:40:35 -1400
From: bwilson@waite.adelaide.edu.au
Subject: Universal Soil Loss Equaltion Question
Hi,
I am wondering about the general scientific status of the Universal Soil
Loss Equation. I have a friend working in Thailand in extremely under
resourced conditions, who is looking at the erosion potential caused by a
surface mine. She has only moderate knowledge of soil erosion models but is
required to do the job anyway. I know of the WEPP model but I don't believe
it would be suited to a surface mine situated in tropical conditions. Are
there better methods for this type of job or is the USLE acceptable? Are
there other issues which she should consider first?
Any help much appreciated,
thanks
ben
************************************************************
Dr Benjamin Wilson
CRC for Soil and Land Management/University of Adelaide
Waite Agricultural Research Institute
PMB1 Glen Osmond
SA 5064
Australia
ph +61 8 3036518
fax +61 8 3036511
http://www-crcslm.waite.adelaide.edu.au/
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Fri Nov 8 21:32 EST 1996
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 20:18:50 -0600
Message-Id: <199611090218.AA26992@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 630
Contents:
Introduction: Marianne Clarholm (Marianne.Clarholm@eom.slu.se (Marianne Clarholm))
introduction (Paul Reynolds <PREYNOLD@tnrcc.state.tx.us>)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:52:10 +0200
From: Marianne.Clarholm@eom.slu.se (Marianne Clarholm)
Subject: Introduction: Marianne Clarholm
I am a soil microbiologist by training, but also educated in chemistry,
botany, zoology and soil sciences. My main competence area is interactions
of microorganisms and their effects on processes like mineralization of N
and P from the organic matter. I have studied the microbial loop
(bacterial/protozoan interactions) in soil at deepth with experiencee from
tundra, forests, arable land and sediments. Recently I have been occupied
with evaluation of effects of wood ash addition to forest soil, including
evaluation of the ash as a P source, as a part of biofuel projects.
One interesting question is how much and which animal groups that
contribute to mineralization of nutrients from the organic matter? Another
if "how many species does an ecosystem need to function properly" is an
adequate question to ask? (vs the imprtance of diversity for "function").
I will give a seminar next week at my department titled "How many people
can the Earth support - Living with in limits", based on two books which I
have read to find some argumentation against the statement "we must
intensify agriculture to be able to feed ever increasing crowds". (I
usually claim we produce enough food but we can not distribute it
(economics,) nor can we protect it from beeing spoilt by microorganisms) I
will share my reading with my collegues at my department Ecology and
Environmental Sciences, SLU, Uppsala, Sweden, would anyone of you like to
come and listen? Marianne Clarholm
Marianne Clarholm
Dept. of Ecology and Environmental Research
Section for Soil Ecology
Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences
Box 7072
S-750 07 Uppsala
Sweden
tel: +46 18671575
fax: +46 18673430
E-mail: Marianne.Clarholm@eom.slu.se
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 16:46:21 -0600
From: Paul Reynolds <PREYNOLD@tnrcc.state.tx.us>
Subject: introduction
My name is Paul Reynolds. I am an Agronomist/soil scientist/hydrologist
for the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission in Austin,
Texas. I have a BS in Agronomy from Oklahoma Panhandle State
University in Goodwell, Oklahoma, and an MS in Range and Wildlife
Management from Texas A&I University (renamed Texas A&M
University-Kingsville) in Kingsville, Texas.
A geologist and I evaluate waste application sites where various
wastes from municipal, industrial and agricultural facilities are utilized for
beneficial use. I deal with the agronomic issues, various chemical,
structural and morphological issues with soils and the hydrological
aspects of water movement through the vadose zone. Major water
borne constituents that I deal with are along the lines of nutrients.
One 'burning' question that I would like to put before other members for
some assistance pertains to 'the transport of viruses and protozoa
through the soil profile'. This is an issue that is becoming very popular
with the public here in Texas. This issue is being utlilised to protest
water quality permits. I have not had to testify about this issue, yet.
However, it will happen all too soon.
Can anyone give me any assistance pertaining to the fate and transport
of viral and protozoan species in the soil profile or the vadose zone?
I would be very appreciative in any assistance I can get. I am currently
working on 3 projects that have sustained criticism pertaining to this
subject.
Thank you for your time.
Paul Reynolds
preynold@smtpgate.tnrcc.state.tx.us
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Mon Nov 11 04:59 EST 1996
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 03:45:31 -0600
Message-Id: <199611110945.AA29431@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 631
Contents:
Re: Soils-l: Introduction (Marianne.Clarholm@eom.slu.se (Marianne Clarholm))
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:43:32 +0200
From: Marianne.Clarholm@eom.slu.se (Marianne Clarholm)
Subject: Re: Soils-l: Introduction
Christian:
What aspects of organic matter are you going to study? As a soil
microbiologist working in forest soil I feel uneasy about your approach
using cores. Fungi are important in the decomposer process. They operate
as networks of hyphae which need to be fairly intack to work well (we know
that from studies in compost and from remediation work). The hyphal network
will eg transport nutrients from deeper layer to the surface to aid in
decomposion of low nutrient fresh litter. If you cut the hyphae, which you
do when coring, you will get a new pool of newly dead hyphae, and also lose
the work of the decomposer fungi normally present. Your experiment will
tell you about that situation but that was not what you intended?
Temperature changes will influence the whole system incresed growth and
litter production, OR increased evaporation and decreased growth? The
organic horizon can not be taken out separately and be expected to function
as before. You will get a more bacteria-based decomposition in your
suggested system than in the field. Gasous N deposition is also difficult
to mimic in a reseach situation, adding on the soil is not the same. As I
know how much work that is involved with practical experimentation I advise
you to get in touch with some soil microbiologists for furter discussion on
a system which could serve you better than the one you suggested. If you
want to discuss other set-ups, let me/us know. Good luck, Marianne Clarholm
Marianne Clarholm
Dept. of Ecology and Environmental Research
Section for Soil Ecology
Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences
Box 7072
S-750 07 Uppsala
Sweden
tel: +46 18671575
fax: +46 18673430
E-mail: Marianne.Clarholm@eom.slu.se
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Tue Nov 12 05:04 EST 1996
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 03:46:10 -0600
Message-Id: <199611120946.AA01294@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 632
Contents:
Re: Soils-l- Introduction (Robert Edis <Robert_Edis@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au>)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:25:12 +1000
From: Robert Edis <Robert_Edis@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Soils-l- Introduction
Reply to: RE>Soils-l: Introduction
Hello Christian,
I bet you are getting lots of comments. One thing I find very important to
SOM rates, in terms of N dynamics, is the presence or absence of plants. For
example, we found that net nitrification was about double in plots with barley
than fallow. Well, thats not surprising, although wether its a shift due to
product removal or some root effect like oxygenation, substrate etc is not
clear (regular leaching of plantless plots did not make up enough ground). So
something else to worry about.
good luck
Robt
robert_edis@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au
--------------------------------------
Date: 7/11/96 1:36 AM
To: Robert Edis
From: soils-l@unl.edu
Dear SOILS-L Readers
As a geographer I have just started my PhD studies on soil science.
I would like to investigate soil organic matter dynamics (SOM) in forest
soils using field and laboratory experiments on disturbed (artificially
layered) soil columns.
The main goal of my work is to learn more about effects of temperature
changes and nitrogen immissions on SOM in hardwood forests of Switzerland.
At a later stage I think of comparing the results with models.
Now I am still in a conceptual phase of my work and I would like to come
into contact with other scientists, working on the subject of soil organic
matter, who might have experiences with the use of soil columns in the
field or maybe work on a similar topic.
I will be happy for any contributions or references.
Thank you for your attention
Yours sincerely Christian Hitz
*******************************************************
Christian Hitz
Geographisches Institut der Universitaet Zuerich-Irchel
University of Zurich / Dept. of Geography
Physical Division / Soil Science
Winterthurerstr. 190
CH - 8057 Zuerich
Switzerland
phone: ++41-(0)1-257-51-14
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Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 08:22:32 -0600
From: chitz@geo.unizh.ch (Christian Hitz)
Subject: Soils-l: Introduction
Sender: soils-l@unl.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list <soils-l@unl.edu>
Errors-to: jp@unlinfo.unl.edu
Reply-to: soils-l@unl.edu
Message-id: <v01540b07aea640b874f2@[130.60.16.112]>
Originator: soils-l@unl.edu
version: 5.5 -- Copyright (c) 1991/92, Anastasios Kotsikonas
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Wed Nov 13 05:03 EST 1996
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 03:46:51 -0600
Message-Id: <199611130946.AA03507@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 633
Contents:
Re: Introduction: Marianne Clarholm ("Cullan Riley" <cullan.riley@luton.ac.uk>)
Re: Introduction: Marianne Clarholm (Paul Dalby <pdalby@waite.adelaide.edu.au>)
New subscriber (Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:00:45 GMT
From: "Cullan Riley" <cullan.riley@luton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Introduction: Marianne Clarholm
I am a soil microbial ecologists. My research is in the area of soil
microbial diversity and it's effect upon soil ecosystem function.
In reply to the question of how much diversity does it take to
maintain a soil's function, the answer requires an understanding of
what environmental constraints determine that function in the first
place.
Soil function is defined for a given environment. this environment
in turn constrains potential function, (this is the classical 'Niche'
argument in ecology). Therefore before the functional contribution
of a specific level of diversity can be asessed it is necessary to
determine the environmental constraints of soil ecosystem function.
Personally some of my research findings have pointed towards the
existence of critical level of diversity in soil ecosystems, for
given evironmental constraints. It is interesting to consider : "At
what point to soil ecosystems become sub-critical ?"
Cullan Riley
Graduate School
Science and Computing
University of Luton
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 10:42:11 +1030
From: Paul Dalby <pdalby@waite.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Introduction: Marianne Clarholm
I am a soil ecologist. I am very interested in the issue of soil
biodiversity and how it relates to soil function. I think the question of
how much diversity is required to maintain soil function is an interesting
one, because before you can answer it, you must ask
1) How do I measure soil biodiversity?
In other habitats, biodiversity is measured by counting the number of
species. This would be an incredible task in just a few square metres of
soil, let alone a field or a catchment basin. We are going to have to come
up with alternative techniques (molecular, chemical, biochemical), but will
they be adequate measures of total soils biodiversity?
2) What is soil function - how do we know it is not functioning properly?
This is a topic I think is sometimes overlooked. There are quite a number of
studies which attempt to measure the difference in diversity between
different soils, but then make no attempt to relate the diversity to the
functioning of the soil. Rather, they try to guess what effect the
management of the soil has on the biodiversity, and then say that this could
have implications for soil function.
Soil function could mean many things
eg
disease suppression
maintenance of soil structure and stability
retention of nutrients (as opposed to loses by leaching, nitrification etc)
speed of nutrient cycling
And as Cullan Riley rightly pointed out, the function of soils varies under
different environmental conditions.
We need to answer these questions before we can answer the original question.
Dr. Paul Dalby
Department of Soil Science
Waite Campus
University of Adelaide
PMB 1 Glen Osmond 5064
South Australia
Australia
phone +618 303 6529
fax +618 303 6511
email pdalby@waite.adelaide.edu.au
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 20:40:25 +1100
From: Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>
Subject: New subscriber
Hi to all,
My name is Chris Pritchard, I work for H.J.Hienz in Australia on
their tomato research trials that they conduct.
The reason for joining this discussion group is because I would like
to learn about soils in greater detail. I am also interested in the advances
that I am hearing from California where you are using GPS systems and crop
yield historys to alter fertiliser inputs over a Field/Paddock.
Is it possible to use your CEC value and assuming you had equal
amounts of nutrients work out which ones would bond at higher levels or
what would be the optimum/maximum level that you could apply fertiliser so
that the CEC of the soil could hold it all and reduce leaching losses. Can
you "cookbook" the soil using CEC, pH and basic chemistry.
Look forward to reading your messages covering all the subjects of
soils.
Yours sincerely,
Chris Pritchard.
C.J.Pritchard
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Thu Nov 14 05:07 EST 1996
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 03:47:00 -0600
Message-Id: <199611140947.AA03623@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 634
Contents:
Re: Introduction: Marianne Clarholm ("Cullan Riley" <cullan.riley@luton.ac.uk>)
The soil food web. (Sal Schettino <sals@rain.org>)
Re: Introduction: Marianne Clarholm (Paul Dalby <pdalby@waite.adelaide.edu.au>)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 10:36:55 GMT
From: "Cullan Riley" <cullan.riley@luton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Introduction: Marianne Clarholm
In reply to the notion of defining soil function (see below), I completely agree.
However there is a get out clause, if soil function is defined as :
" The provision of a stable physical and chemical environment to
encourage the establishment and growth of plants", then various
modifications in approach can be made to fit this definition whithin
a particular study.
To measure soil microbial diversity and to relate this to soil
function requires the use of specific diversity indices. However
indices are purely correlations and offer no 'cause and effect'
relationships. Metabolic markers such as soil enzymes or cellular
components may offer direct cause and effect relationships between
soil function, soil management and soil ecosystem development. But
it isn't enough to take single measurements of one specific metabolic
marker, whole suites of measurements are required. Complications
arise in the fact that we all take different measurements, if you
like we are all talking a different language.......
"2) What is soil function - how do we know it is not functioning properly?
This is a topic I think is sometimes overlooked. There are quite a number of
studies which attempt to measure the difference in diversity between
different soils, but then make no attempt to relate the diversity to the
functioning of the soil. Rather, they try to guess what effect the
management of the soil has on the biodiversity, and then say that this could
have implications for soil function.
Soil function could mean many things
eg
disease suppression
maintenance of soil structure and stability
retention of nutrients (as opposed to loses by leaching, nitrification etc)
speed of nutrient cycling"
Dr. Paul Dalby
Cullan Riley
Graduate School
Science and Computing
University of Luton
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:41:49 -0800
From: Sal Schettino <sals@rain.org>
Subject: The soil food web.
I have a homepage for organic farmers and I have posted Elaine R. Ingham
PhD handout on the soil life web. at
http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html
They have a data base of everything from forest to desserts and have a
good idea what numbers of microorganisms that should be in the soil. They
count them. With stains and microscopes and such. They can give you an
Active Bacterial Biomass count and a fungal biomass and
Flagellates,Amoebae,Ciliates,Nematode numbers Mycorrhizal fungal root
colonization . They can tell from soil samples about what is going on in
the soil and if the balance between fungi and bacteria is wrong . They seem
to have a good grasp on managing the root/microbe environment and I feel
this will soon become a standard and powerful tool for crop producers.
This soils listserver is becoming very interesting. Seems like there is a
lot more to it than NPK. Soil Foodweb Inc. has a email address at
sfi@peak.org They are doing studies which attempt to measure the soil life
and relate it to effect and management.
At 06:09 PM 11/12/96 -0600, you wrote:
>I am a soil ecologist. I am very interested in the issue of soil
>biodiversity and how it relates to soil function. I think the question of
>how much diversity is required to maintain soil function is an interesting
>one, because before you can answer it, you must ask
>
>1) How do I measure soil biodiversity?
>In other habitats, biodiversity is measured by counting the number of
>species. This would be an incredible task in just a few square metres of
>soil, let alone a field or a catchment basin. We are going to have to come
>up with alternative techniques (molecular, chemical, biochemical), but will
>they be adequate measures of total soils biodiversity?
>
>2) What is soil function - how do we know it is not functioning properly?
>This is a topic I think is sometimes overlooked. There are quite a number of
>studies which attempt to measure the difference in diversity between
>different soils, but then make no attempt to relate the diversity to the
>functioning of the soil. Rather, they try to guess what effect the
>management of the soil has on the biodiversity, and then say that this could
>have implications for soil function.
>Soil function could mean many things
>eg
>disease suppression
>maintenance of soil structure and stability
>retention of nutrients (as opposed to loses by leaching, nitrification etc)
>speed of nutrient cycling
>And as Cullan Riley rightly pointed out, the function of soils varies under
>different environmental conditions.
>
>We need to answer these questions before we can answer the original question.
>
>
>Dr. Paul Dalby
>Department of Soil Science
>Waite Campus
>University of Adelaide
>PMB 1 Glen Osmond 5064
>South Australia
>Australia
>
>phone +618 303 6529
>fax +618 303 6511
>email pdalby@waite.adelaide.edu.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
An Organic farming homepage
http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html
sals@rain.org
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:14:55 +1030
From: Paul Dalby <pdalby@waite.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Introduction: Marianne Clarholm
In response to Cullan Riley, I do not understand how defining soil function
as he does is a get out clause. "Get out" of what?
Secondly, microbial diversity is only part of soil diversity and there are
many functions in soil which require more than just the microbes. This
diversity must be taken into account as well.
Thirdly, although measures of diversity do not provide a "cause and effect"
relationship with soil function, it would be extremely interesting to know
whether there is a level of diversity for soils below which soil function
begins to break down. The level of diversity required will obviously change
from habitat to habitat, but if we can firstly demonstrate a relationship,
we can think about how soil diversity can be increased in marginal soils
(increasing the diversity of plant species - eg crops, reduce disturbance).
It is also of course interesting from a purely ecological perspectives and
this is a hot topic of research in other habitats and ecosystems. In the
future, we may even be able to use biodiversity as an indicator of the
potential resiliance of soil to external stresses.
At 04:34 AM 13/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
>In reply to the notion of defining soil function (see below), I completely
agree.
> However there is a get out clause, if soil function is defined as :
>" The provision of a stable physical and chemical environment to
>encourage the establishment and growth of plants", then various
>modifications in approach can be made to fit this definition whithin
>a particular study.
>
>To measure soil microbial diversity and to relate this to soil
>function requires the use of specific diversity indices. However
>indices are purely correlations and offer no 'cause and effect'
>relationships. Metabolic markers such as soil enzymes or cellular
>components may offer direct cause and effect relationships between
>soil function, soil management and soil ecosystem development. But
>it isn't enough to take single measurements of one specific metabolic
>marker, whole suites of measurements are required. Complications
>arise in the fact that we all take different measurements, if you
>like we are all talking a different language.......
>
> "2) What is soil function - how do we know it is not functioning properly?
> This is a topic I think is sometimes overlooked. There are quite a number of
> studies which attempt to measure the difference in diversity between
> different soils, but then make no attempt to relate the diversity to the
> functioning of the soil. Rather, they try to guess what effect the
> management of the soil has on the biodiversity, and then say that this could
> have implications for soil function.
> Soil function could mean many things
> eg
> disease suppression
> maintenance of soil structure and stability
> retention of nutrients (as opposed to loses by leaching, nitrification etc)
> speed of nutrient cycling"
>
> Dr. Paul Dalby
>
>
>
>Cullan Riley
>Graduate School
>Science and Computing
>University of Luton
>
>
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Fri Nov 15 05:03 EST 1996
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 03:47:47 -0600
Message-Id: <199611150947.AA02211@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 635
Contents:
Diversity and Succession ("Cullan Riley" <cullan.riley@luton.ac.uk>)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 11:10:06 GMT
From: "Cullan Riley" <cullan.riley@luton.ac.uk>
Subject: Diversity and Succession
Paul Dalby is quite right in pointing out the flippancy of the phrase
'get out clause'. what I was trying to invoke was a notion that soil
function is often described in terms of management aims i.e. arable
farming has a different definiton of soil function to that of the
construction industry. therefore my definition of soil function was
proposed to fit within the boundaries of any specific management
regime.
Personally I firmly believe that there exists critical levels of
diversity for a given set of environmental constraints. In fact this
is the basis for my Ph.D.. Dr. Dalby is also right in pointing out
that soil microbial communities are not the only biological group of
importance in soils. However many soil functional processes can be
identified as being mediated by soil microbial communities. As much
of ecology is founded upon the necessity of placing arbitrary
boundaries around systems it seems reasonable to use soil microbial
communities as an indicator of the way in which soil ecosystems
develop.
Another important poin to raise is that if we are investigating the
effect of diversity upon ecosystem function then it is functional
diversity and not classical taxonomic diversity that is important.
Diversity indices such as Simpon's Index or Hill's Index use
classical taxonomic diversity as the basis for their measurement.
However when discussing ecosystem function the diversity that is
important is that which accounts for all of the processes within the
ecosystem that can cause a specific ecosystem attribute. This can
be seen as a search for the diversity of processes responsible for
soil ecosystems emergent properties.
Cullan Riley
Graduate School
Science and Computing
University of Luton
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Sat Nov 16 05:25 EST 1996
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 03:48:40 -0600
Message-Id: <199611160948.AA02962@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 636
Contents:
Re: Soils-l MC No subscriber? (Marianne.Clarholm@eom.slu.se (Marianne Clarholm))
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:33:23 +0200
From: Marianne.Clarholm@eom.slu.se (Marianne Clarholm)
Subject: Re: Soils-l MC No subscriber?
I did subscribe to the list quite some time ago and did get all the
messages. Then I decided to contribute my knowledge the other day and was
told that I was not a member. Then I patiently joined again and now I get 2
messages and appear on the list twice. Can you make it 1 time only? Thanks
from Marianne Clartholm
>marianne.clarholm@eom.slu.se: You are not subscribed to soils-l@unl.edu.
>Your message is returned to you unprocessed. If you want to subscribe,
>send mail to listserv@unl.edu with the following request:
>
> subscribe SOILS-L Your Name
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I did once subscribe to the list, and I do get messages all the time. Have
>I ever been a member? Marianne Clarholm, SLU, Uppsala, Sweden
>
>
>
>>marianne.clarholm@eom.slu.se: You are not subscribed to soils-l@unl.edu.
>>Your message is returned to you unprocessed. If you want to subscribe,
>>send mail to listserv@unl.edu with the following request:
>>
>> subscribe SOILS-L Your Name
>>
>
Marianne Clarholm
Dept. of Ecology and Environmental Research
Section for Soil Ecology
Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences
Box 7072
S-750 07 Uppsala
Sweden
tel: +46 18671575
fax: +46 18673430
E-mail: Marianne.Clarholm@eom.slu.se
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Sun Nov 17 15:28 EST 1996
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 13:28:45 -0600
Message-Id: <199611171928.AA22203@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 637
Contents:
E+O insurance for Soil Science firms ("Philip Small" <psmall@wolfe.net>)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:51:46 -0800
From: "Philip Small" <psmall@wolfe.net>
Subject: E+O insurance for Soil Science firms
The National Society of Consulting Soil Scientists has been
looking for E&O insurance to serve members for 8 years.
Cost and terms have always been a challenge. Its those darn SIC
codes and ISO categories that insurers rely on. Soil Scientists
get classed into some pretty onerous liabilty exposure profiles
by these systems.
We have found a satisfactory program. Non-NSCSS consulting
soil scientists may want to consider joining the group. If
interested, please respond to the following forwarded email.
Philip Small<psmall@wolfe.net>
NSCSS 1993 President
------------begin forwarded message-----
Date sent: Fri, 8 Nov 1996
To: psmall@wolfe.net
From: davis@spider.lloyd.com (Sid Davis)
Subject: NSCSS Insurance Program
Copies to: r.fuller.snp@worldnet.att.net
Hello Gang!
Here is the latest on the insurance program. We have a 60 day
window to exact this program, so if you want on board, get your
response to:
Mr. Paul Fuller
email: r.fuller.snp@worldnet.att.com
Carrier: AMERICAN INTERNATIONAL GROUP (AIG)
Financial Rating: A++
Eligibility: Firms specializing in the field of Soil Science
Limit: $1,000,000 each occurence/policy aggregate
Form: General Liability (occurence)
Professional Liability (claims made)
Deductible: $1,000 each loss
Premium Levels:
A. 0 to $50,000 @ $1,500 annually
B. $50,001 to $100,000 @ $2,500 annually
C. $100,001 to $150,000 @ $3,000 annually
D. $150,001 to $200,000 @ $3,500 annually
E. $200,001 to $250,000 @ $4,000 annually
Notes: Master Policy.
No charge for certificates of additional insured
endorsements. Tailor-made for soil scientists. Available
nationwide. Covers both professional and nonprofessional
exposures.
Please download and return by snail mail; NSCSS Insurnace
Program, P.O. Box 7187 Stockton, CA 95267 or, respond by email
(r.fuller.snp@worldnet.att.com); or, FAX, toll free, 888/477-7001
NSCSS and its members will benefit greatly. Your support and
early response is much appreciated! Sid Davis, Pres. Elect.
-----end forwarded message-----------
Philip Small
Land Profile Inc. (and) The Soils Group Inc. (USA)
member National Society of Consulting Soil Scientists, Inc.
http://www.wolfe.net/~psmall/nscss.html
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Tue Nov 19 11:15 EST 1996
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:00:55 -0600
Message-Id: <199611191600.AA15939@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 638
Contents:
Re: Soils-l MC No subscriber? -Reply (Paul Reynolds <PREYNOLD@tnrcc.state.tx.us>)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:42:25 -0600
From: Paul Reynolds <PREYNOLD@tnrcc.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Soils-l MC No subscriber? -Reply
I have experienced the same problem. I receive duplicate of all E-Mails
and I had subscribed several months ago and was not allowed to send
message. If anyone can be of assistance I would appreciate it. The
double messages are becoming problematic, in that I have been ear
marked by our LAN group as causing some of the 'disk out of space'
problems that we are experiencing due to the massive amount of
E-Mails that I receive.
I'm not complaining! By no means am I as disgruntled as is apparent with
certain individuals.
thanks,
preynold
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Wed Nov 20 11:18 EST 1996
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:01:40 -0600
Message-Id: <199611201601.AA20085@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 639
Contents:
Re: Soils-l MC No subscriber? -Reply (pbw1@cornell.edu (Peter Woodbury))
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:39:35 -0400
From: pbw1@cornell.edu (Peter Woodbury)
Subject: Re: Soils-l MC No subscriber? -Reply
I have had this problem in the past. It occured because of a change in my
return email address. The listserver did not recognize me because my return
address had changed. This was not obvious to me because the mail system at
my university allows me to use a sort of "nickname" of "pbw1@cornell.edu"
which is what you probably see on the list, and which did not change.
However, the listserver machine sees a longer name, something like
"pbw1@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu". In my case, this longer name changed,
and thus the listserver no longer recognized me. I had to re-use my old
name in order to unsubscribe, and use the new name to re-subscribe. Perhaps
your problem is similar?
Good luck!
Peter
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Peter Woodbury
Senior Research Specialist
Boyce Thompson Institute for Plant Research
Tower Road, Ithaca, NY 14853-1801
voice (607) 254-1216 fax (607) 254-1242
email pbw1@cornell.edu
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Thu Nov 21 18:25 EST 1996
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:51:56 -0600
Message-Id: <199611212251.AA28764@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 640
Contents:
Entropy and sustainability (Miguel Cooper <mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br>)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:34:25 -0200 (BDB)
From: Miguel Cooper <mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br>
Subject: Entropy and sustainability
"The soil-plant system is a key component in various of natures's cycles,
and sustainability of our agricultural systems depends on maintaining the
balance between ordering processes and dissipation processes, this means
seeking the producrion of minimum entropy"
Taken from T.M. Addiscott, "Entropy and sustainability" , European
Journal of Soil Science, 46, 161-168, 1995.
Dear everybody:
I am interested in the role of thermodynamics in nature, especially
soils, and I would to know a little bit more about this so interesting
subject. If any one can suggest any other paper or book where I can get
some more information on this subject I would be very gratefull.
I would also like to know a little bit more about the GAIA and Chaos
theories applied to natural systems.
Thank you very much for any information you can send,
Yours sincerely
Miguel Cooper
University of Sao Paulo
Soil Science Department
Brazil
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Fri Nov 22 18:08 EST 1996
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:52:19 -0600
Message-Id: <199611222252.AA27896@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 641
Contents:
Re: Entropy and sustainability (rjm@fs3.ballarat.edu.au (Richard MacEwan))
Re: Entropy and sustainability (walt dennig <wrdennig@cruzio.com>)
Re: Entropy and sustainability ("WOUTER DE LANGE - STUDENT" <WOUTER@wwg3.uovs.ac.za>)
Re: Entropy and sustainability (Miguel Cooper <mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br>)
Re: Entropy and sustainability (Miguel Cooper <mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br>)
Re: Entropy and sustainability (ddagesse@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Daryl Dagesse))
Re: Entropy and sustainability ("WOUTER DE LANGE - STUDENT" <WOUTER@wwg3.uovs.ac.za>)
Re: Entropy and sustainability (ddagesse@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Daryl Dagesse))
Re: Entropy and sustainability (Gregory McIsaac <gfm@age2.age.uiuc.edu>)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:59:00 +1100
From: rjm@fs3.ballarat.edu.au (Richard MacEwan)
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
>
>
>"The soil-plant system is a key component in various of natures's cycles,
>and sustainability of our agricultural systems depends on maintaining the
>balance between ordering processes and dissipation processes, this means
>seeking the producrion of minimum entropy"
>
>Taken from T.M. Addiscott, "Entropy and sustainability" , European
>Journal of Soil Science, 46, 161-168, 1995.
>
>Dear everybody:
>I am interested in the role of thermodynamics in nature, especially
>soils, and I would to know a little bit more about this so interesting
>subject. If any one can suggest any other paper or book where I can get
>some more information on this subject I would be very gratefull.
>I would also like to know a little bit more about the GAIA and Chaos
>theories applied to natural systems.
>
>Thank you very much for any information you can send,
>
>Yours sincerely
>Miguel Cooper
>University of Sao Paulo
>Soil Science Department
>Brazil
>
>Dear Miguel,
This subject interests me too. I have recently been into the topic in
writing a draft for a paper on soil quality. Unfortunately the referees want
the section on entropy removed so whether it will be published or not, I do
not know now. However, if you would like to get in contact I can discuss
some ideas with you directly. Smeck et al.1983 Dynamics and genetic
modelling of soil systems, pp51-81 in Wilding L.P. et al, (eds) Pedogenesis
and Soil Taxonomy.I.Concepts and Interactions. Elsevier,Amsterdam. will give
you something to bite on.
Regards, Richard MacEwan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Richard MacEwan
Alcoa lecturer in land rehabilitation
University of Ballarat PO Box 663, Ballarat, 3353 Aus
Phone: (053) 279221 Fax (053) 279240 Email rjm@fs3.ballarat.edu.au
"Clean up the air and treat the animals fair. I can't help but think you
treat life like a joke. Time is runnin' out and all you ever do is blabber
'n smoke"
(Blabber 'n Smoke, Don Van Vliet)
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:58:45 -0800
From: walt dennig <wrdennig@cruzio.com>
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
As a lurker, perhaps my voice is of less weight than those who actually
work in soils science, however, this subject also interests me (from the
point of view of reducing the reductionism). So if it turns out that
others would rather not use this forum for this discussion, I would ask you
in advance to keep me posted as to the venue you will use.
Thanks a lot.
At 05:23 PM 11/21/96 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>"The soil-plant system is a key component in various of natures's cycles,
>>and sustainability of our agricultural systems depends on maintaining the
>>balance between ordering processes and dissipation processes, this means
>>seeking the producrion of minimum entropy"
>>
>>Taken from T.M. Addiscott, "Entropy and sustainability" , European
>>Journal of Soil Science, 46, 161-168, 1995.
>>
>>Dear everybody:
>>I am interested in the role of thermodynamics in nature, especially
>>soils, and I would to know a little bit more about this so interesting
>>subject. If any one can suggest any other paper or book where I can get
>>some more information on this subject I would be very gratefull.
>>I would also like to know a little bit more about the GAIA and Chaos
>>theories applied to natural systems.
>>
>>Thank you very much for any information you can send,
>>
>>Yours sincerely
>>Miguel Cooper
>>University of Sao Paulo
>>Soil Science Department
>>Brazil
>>
>>Dear Miguel,
>
>This subject interests me too. I have recently been into the topic in
>writing a draft for a paper on soil quality. Unfortunately the referees want
>the section on entropy removed so whether it will be published or not, I do
>not know now. However, if you would like to get in contact I can discuss
>some ideas with you directly. Smeck et al.1983 Dynamics and genetic
>modelling of soil systems, pp51-81 in Wilding L.P. et al, (eds) Pedogenesis
>and Soil Taxonomy.I.Concepts and Interactions. Elsevier,Amsterdam. will give
>you something to bite on.
>
>Regards, Richard MacEwan
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Richard MacEwan
>Alcoa lecturer in land rehabilitation
>University of Ballarat PO Box 663, Ballarat, 3353 Aus
>Phone: (053) 279221 Fax (053) 279240 Email rjm@fs3.ballarat.edu.au
>
>"Clean up the air and treat the animals fair. I can't help but think you
>treat life like a joke. Time is runnin' out and all you ever do is blabber
>'n smoke"
>(Blabber 'n Smoke, Don Van Vliet)
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
>.-
>
>
Walt Dennig wrdennig@cruzio.com
P.O. Box 578 Voice: 408-426-6141
Santa Cruz, CA 95060 FAX: 408-457-2104 by appt.
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:55:35 GMT2
From: "WOUTER DE LANGE - STUDENT" <WOUTER@wwg3.uovs.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
Another lurker here. And another interessted reader. In looking at
soil entropy, what are the key factors involved? Would one monitor
the loss of nutrients, temperature, water... Maybe we could monitor
the microbial populations? But I also think we'll end up with the
chaos theory, and use thousands of factors.... Maybe I should read
Richard's article again. How about a copy of the rejected paragraph
posted here?
Best
Wouter
> As a lurker, perhaps my voice is of less weight than those who actually
> work in soils science, however, this subject also interests me (from the
> point of view of reducing the reductionism). So if it turns out that
> others would rather not use this forum for this discussion, I would ask you
> in advance to keep me posted as to the venue you will use.
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
Wouter de Lange
Dept Microbiology and Biochemistry
University of the Orange Free State
PO Box 339
Bloemfontein
9300
South Africa
+27-51-401-2124 (Voice)
+27-51-482004 (Fax)
wouter@wwg3.uovs.ac.za ...risen
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:22:44 -0200 (BDB)
From: Miguel Cooper <mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br>
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
Dear Wouter:
I started this discussion topic yesterday and I think one of the factors
that one could monitor to at least get an idea of entropy in a soil-plant
system is the audit of small molecules as cited by Addiscott in his paper
but I think that monitoring microbial populations would also give a good
idea as soil microbiology mainly is one of the most important factors
that control any system in a steady state.
I agree on your request of Richard's rejected paper.
Yours sincerely,
Miguel Cooper
Universidade de Sao Paulo
Brazil
On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, WOUTER DE LANGE - STUDENT wrote:
> Another lurker here. And another interessted reader. In looking at
> soil entropy, what are the key factors involved? Would one monitor
> the loss of nutrients, temperature, water... Maybe we could monitor
> the microbial populations? But I also think we'll end up with the
> chaos theory, and use thousands of factors.... Maybe I should read
> Richard's article again. How about a copy of the rejected paragraph
> posted here?
>
> Best
> Wouter
>
> > As a lurker, perhaps my voice is of less weight than those who actually
> > work in soils science, however, this subject also interests me (from the
> > point of view of reducing the reductionism). So if it turns out that
> > others would rather not use this forum for this discussion, I would ask you
> > in advance to keep me posted as to the venue you will use.
> >
> > Thanks a lot.
> >
>
> Wouter de Lange
> Dept Microbiology and Biochemistry
> University of the Orange Free State
> PO Box 339
> Bloemfontein
> 9300
> South Africa
> +27-51-401-2124 (Voice)
> +27-51-482004 (Fax)
> wouter@wwg3.uovs.ac.za ...risen
>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:27:39 -0200 (BDB)
From: Miguel Cooper <mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br>
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
Dear Richard:
Thank you very much for your information, I would like to see that paper
you had rejected on entropy, if you could send me a copy I would be very
gratefull.
Your sincerely,
Miguel
University of Sao Paulo
Av. Prof. Alberto Vollet Sachs, 499, E1/32
13417-670 Piracicaba, SP
Brazil
Tel/Fax: (+5519) 4296119
E-mail:Mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:58:55 -0500
From: ddagesse@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Daryl Dagesse)
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
Hello everyone
Regarding entropy, sustainability and thermodynamics in general, I would
suggest that you look into nonequilibrium, or irreversible thermodynamics.
There's not a lot of soils related literature on this topic, but it seems
to be a pretty good way of looking at the soil system from this point of
view.
========================================================================
You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred.
========================================================================
Daryl Dagesse
Senior Demonstrator/Instructor
Department of Geography, Brock University
St. Catharines, Ontario, L2S 3A1
905-688-5550 x4071, FAX 905-688-6369
ddagesse@spartan.ac.brocku.ca
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:03:54 GMT2
From: "WOUTER DE LANGE - STUDENT" <WOUTER@wwg3.uovs.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
And me too, please. Thanx for bringing it up, Miguel, I wasn't sure
if that sort of thing was allowed (asking for unpuplished papers).
Wouter
> Dear Richard:
> Thank you very much for your information, I would like to see that paper
> you had rejected on entropy, if you could send me a copy I would be very
> gratefull.
> Your sincerely,
> Miguel
>
> University of Sao Paulo
> Av. Prof. Alberto Vollet Sachs, 499, E1/32
> 13417-670 Piracicaba, SP
> Brazil
> Tel/Fax: (+5519) 4296119
> E-mail:Mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br
>
>
Wouter de Lange
Dept Microbiology and Biochemistry
University of the Orange Free State
PO Box 339
Bloemfontein
9300
South Africa
+27-51-401-2124 (Voice)
+27-51-482004 (Fax)
wouter@wwg3.uovs.ac.za ...risen
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:59:10 -0500
From: ddagesse@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Daryl Dagesse)
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
Hello everyone
Regarding entropy, sustainability and thermodynamics in general, I would
suggest that you look into nonequilibrium, or irreversible thermodynamics.
There's not a lot of soils related literature on this topic, but it seems
to be a pretty good way of looking at the soil system from this point of
view.
========================================================================
You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred.
========================================================================
Daryl Dagesse
Senior Demonstrator/Instructor
Department of Geography, Brock University
St. Catharines, Ontario, L2S 3A1
905-688-5550 x4071, FAX 905-688-6369
ddagesse@spartan.ac.brocku.ca
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:44:30 -0600
From: Gregory McIsaac <gfm@age2.age.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
There is a 1993 paper on entropy and sustainability titled:
A Physical view of Sustainability, by Bruce Hannon, Mathais Ruth and Evan
DeLucia that appeared in Ecological Economics 8(3):253-68.
This was slightly revised and reprinted as a chapter titled: "The Natural
Ecosystem as a Standard for Sustainability: A Thermodynamic Approach" which
appeared in the book: "Sustainable Agriculture in the American Midwest:
Lessons from the Past, Prospects for the Future," edited by McIsaac and
Edwards, 1994, U of Illinois Press.
The article suggests we look at entropy change created by different natural
ecosystems and agricultural systems. It argues that the natural systems
should be guides or set the limits for human systems. It presents a
simplified energy /respiration budget for a modern, Illinois corn field, an
Amish (low tech) corn field and native praire. The Amish and the prairie
had similar budgets the modern had higher energy costs and thus presumably
higher (less sustainable) entropy formation. It also suggests looking at
efficiency of solar energy capture of different systems. It is more of a
theory and speculation paper, but presents some interesting ideas that might
be worth following up in a more rigorous and detailed manner.
Also, Matthais Ruth's PhD thesis dealt with sustainability, thermodynamcis
and economcis and was published as a book. I don't have the title handy though.
Greg McIsaac
Natural Resources and Environmental Sciences
University of Illinois
Urbana-Champaign
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Sun Nov 24 00:04 EST 1996
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 22:50:54 -0600
Message-Id: <199611240450.AA19496@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 642
Contents:
Question, limiting factor. (Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:52:58 +1100
From: Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>
Subject: Question, limiting factor.
I am wondering about the limiting factor that relates to a plant
growing at a rate that is controled by the nutrient in least supply.
If this is the case then why has there been such a push in Aus for
increased use of super or MAP if there is a limiting micro nutrient, boron
etc. Also with the higher available amounts of P or K does this set up a
cation/anion gradient that results in excess plant uptake and hence growth.
C.J.Pritchard
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Mon Nov 25 00:05 EST 1996
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:50:55 -0600
Message-Id: <199611250450.AA06063@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 643
Contents:
Re: Question, limiting factor. (Rob Bramley <Rob.Bramley@tvl.tcp.csiro.au>)
Re: Question, limiting factor. (john.bair@filebank.cts.com (JOHN BAIR))
Re: Question, limiting factor. (Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>)
Re: Question, limiting factor. (Miguel Cooper <mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br>)
Re: Question, limiting factor. (Tom Thomson <tomt@teleport.com>)
Re: Question, limiting factor. (Tom Thomson <tomt@teleport.com>)
Re: Question, limiting factor. (Rob Bramley <Rob.Bramley@tvl.tcp.csiro.au>)
Re: Question, limiting factor. (S.J.Officer@massey.ac.nz (Sally Officer))
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 17:00:41 EST
From: Rob Bramley <Rob.Bramley@tvl.tcp.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
Ah, music to my ears ! It is incredible isn't it - N, P and K are applied
with gay abandon very often with no consideration of the need for some of
the other 13 or 14 essential nutrients, and also, I'll bet, without the user
being certain that the recommendations they are following (if they are
following any at all) were developed under conditions where these other
nutrients are non-limiting.
Roll on the adoption of precision agriculture !
Rob Bramley
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------
Dr Rob Bramley, Senior Research Scientist - Soil and Environmental Chemistry.
CSIRO Division of Soils, Davies Laboratory, Townsville.
Post: PMB Aitkenvale, Qld 4814, Australia. Tel: 077-538591 Fax: 077-538650
Email: Rob.Bramley@tvl.soils.csiro.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 96 22:14:00 -0800
From: john.bair@filebank.cts.com (JOHN BAIR)
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
plants find their own ballance from the existing soil and the demands of
weather etc..yes?
jb
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:12:47 +1100
From: Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
At 00:59 24/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Ah, music to my ears ! It is incredible isn't it - N, P and K are applied
>with gay abandon very often with no consideration of the need for some
ofthe other 13 or 14 essential nutrients
Thanks for the reply Rob, I suppose the next question would be at
what rate the specific crop that you intend to grow removes each nutrient,
so that combining this with your soil test report, you would be able to
create the right fertiliser "brew". This would also tie in with soil pH and
CEC so as to give an idea as to the rate at which a plant can accesss these
nutrients?
To me it sounds good, but.... can you model this, and is this what
you are refering too when you mention "Precesion Farming"?.
C.J.Pritchard
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:02:01 -0200 (BDB)
From: Miguel Cooper <mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br>
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
Chris:
I suppose the information for your second question must come from
experimental data obtained from experimental plots for a specific crop
where you can asses your specific soil properties and the amount of
nutrients you are inputing and the amount that are being absorbed by the
plant. Probably a good way to asses this is by knowing the amount of
nutrients present in the dry matter of your crop or probably you can use
marked elements. pH is an important factor but if we look at the pH vs.
availability curves for all the nutrients we are going to see that most
of them are available between the pH's of 5,5 and 6,5. As to the CEC you
have to check which cation is dominant because if you have for example an
acid soil as we have here in Brazil you will probably will have big
problems with Al toxicity.
I think you can find this information in the literature on plant nutrtion
as Marschner's book or any other one.
Good luck,
Miguel Cooper
Soil Science Department
Escola Superior de Agricultura Luiz de Queiroz
University of Sao Paulo
Brazil
On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Chris pritchard wrote:
> At 00:59 24/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
> >Ah, music to my ears ! It is incredible isn't it - N, P and K are applied
> >with gay abandon very often with no consideration of the need for some
> ofthe other 13 or 14 essential nutrients
>
> Thanks for the reply Rob, I suppose the next question would be at
> what rate the specific crop that you intend to grow removes each nutrient,
> so that combining this with your soil test report, you would be able to
> create the right fertiliser "brew". This would also tie in with soil pH and
> CEC so as to give an idea as to the rate at which a plant can accesss these
> nutrients?
> To me it sounds good, but.... can you model this, and is this what
> you are refering too when you mention "Precesion Farming"?.
> C.J.Pritchard
>
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:43:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Thomson <tomt@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
Seems like one of those items which might be included in the book "Things
That Make You Go Humph!!"
Micronutrient nutritiono has been an often overlooked or "band-aid" aspect
of plant nutrition. Ionic balances within and without the plant are a field
which warrants much study, but are difficult and costly to pursue. It seems
to me that the Casparian strip is the real "outside" of the root and the
rest is more of an evolved plant-soil interface or staging area where
mycorhizae reside and things are staged for entry into the plant. I have not
read this in any journal but it seems to have some logic??!!?.
At 10:45 PM 11/23/96 -0600, you wrote:
> I am wondering about the limiting factor that relates to a plant
>growing at a rate that is controled by the nutrient in least supply.
> If this is the case then why has there been such a push in Aus for
>increased use of super or MAP if there is a limiting micro nutrient, boron
>etc. Also with the higher available amounts of P or K does this set up a
>cation/anion gradient that results in excess plant uptake and hence growth.
>C.J.Pritchard
>
>
Tom Thomson Northwest Agricultural Consulting
Dallas, Oregon 97338 Phone/FAX 503-623-7858
"The only difference between a problem and a solution is that
everyone understands the solution." Charles Kettering
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:53:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Thomson <tomt@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
Early fertilizer research looked at the Big 3 nutrients with rerspect to
rate and yield. Little work was done with relatioonships and micros until
the last 20 years or so. Timing of nutrient uptake and both temporal and
spatial avilability of those nutrients is a difficult subject area to
pursue. Since mass flow is one of the largest means by which a plant gathers
nutrients from the soil at large to its roots, the plant ahs no control over
what the soil solution has to offer at any given instant. Thus micro factors
within the physiochemical environment of the soil at any given moment
largely control the gamish of nutrients available to the plant. Ionic
balance maintanence is achieved through chemical equilibria reactions within
the plant. I have never been able to find any literature dealing with the
speed of these reactions or which comes first...the incoming nutrient
forcing the plant to release an internal ion or vice versa??
At 03:06 AM 11/24/96 -0600, you wrote:
>At 00:59 24/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
>>Ah, music to my ears ! It is incredible isn't it - N, P and K are applied
>>with gay abandon very often with no consideration of the need for some
>ofthe other 13 or 14 essential nutrients
>
> Thanks for the reply Rob, I suppose the next question would be at
>what rate the specific crop that you intend to grow removes each nutrient,
>so that combining this with your soil test report, you would be able to
>create the right fertiliser "brew". This would also tie in with soil pH and
>CEC so as to give an idea as to the rate at which a plant can accesss these
>nutrients?
> To me it sounds good, but.... can you model this, and is this what
>you are refering too when you mention "Precesion Farming"?.
>C.J.Pritchard
>
>
Tom Thomson Northwest Agricultural Consulting
Dallas, Oregon 97338 Phone/FAX 503-623-7858
"The only difference between a problem and a solution is that
everyone understands the solution." Charles Kettering
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 08:50:53 EST
From: Rob Bramley <Rob.Bramley@tvl.tcp.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
The point is that it doesn't matter a stuff how much of a single nutrient
you supply to a plant. It will not respond to it (even if it takes it up) if
one or more of the other essential nutrients is limiting. The comment that
someone made about plants being at balance with the soil is therefore
nonsense, unless that soil contains adequate amounts of all the essential
nutrients with appropriate balance between the levels of these nutrients and
with other soil properties (eg pH, EC, available water) in a satisfactory state.
Precision agriculture offers a means of properly ensuring some sort of
balance and near-optimal supply over large areas (eg fields or paddocks) by
taking account of the spatial variation within the field and differentially
supplying nutrients on the basis of need and predicted response.
Rob Bramley
At 03:08 AM 24/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
>At 00:59 24/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
>>Ah, music to my ears ! It is incredible isn't it - N, P and K are applied
>>with gay abandon very often with no consideration of the need for some
>ofthe other 13 or 14 essential nutrients
>
> Thanks for the reply Rob, I suppose the next question would be at
>what rate the specific crop that you intend to grow removes each nutrient,
>so that combining this with your soil test report, you would be able to
>create the right fertiliser "brew". This would also tie in with soil pH and
>CEC so as to give an idea as to the rate at which a plant can accesss these
>nutrients?
> To me it sounds good, but.... can you model this, and is this what
>you are refering too when you mention "Precesion Farming"?.
>C.J.Pritchard
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------
Dr Rob Bramley, Senior Research Scientist - Soil and Environmental Chemistry.
CSIRO Division of Soils, Davies Laboratory, Townsville.
Post: PMB Aitkenvale, Qld 4814, Australia. Tel: 077-538591 Fax: 077-538650
Email: Rob.Bramley@tvl.soils.csiro.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:51:18 +1200
From: S.J.Officer@massey.ac.nz (Sally Officer)
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
> Ionic
>balance maintanence is achieved through chemical equilibria reactions within
>the plant.
Comment: Don't forget that certain plants also have the ability to screen
the soil
solution nutrients as the nutrients cross the cell membranes. I am also not
sure
that simply testing the plant material provides a clear indication of plant
nutrition, as the plants also use alot of "in house" screening and sinks
:-) confused?
I guess I am saying that I think it is important to remember that plants can
be as complicated and variable as the soil that they grow on. Can they really
be reduced to simple models? I know I won't be popular for saying this :=0
but we have been trying to fit plant-soil systems into tidy models for a long
time, and they still seem to elude us. Are we barking up the wrong tree??
Scuse me while I run for the fire extinguisher
:-)
Sally
>>
>> Thanks for the reply Rob, I suppose the next question would be at
>>what rate the specific crop that you intend to grow removes each nutrient,
>>so that combining this with your soil test report, you would be able to
>>create the right fertiliser "brew". This would also tie in with soil pH and
>>CEC so as to give an idea as to the rate at which a plant can accesss these
>>nutrients?
>> To me it sounds good, but.... can you model this, and is this what
>
???!!!!oooooOOOOOPPPPPSSSsssssss.....
Sally Officer
New Zealand
Land of the long grey rain cloud!!.
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Tue Nov 26 00:04 EST 1996
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:51:19 -0600
Message-Id: <199611260451.AA04291@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 644
Contents:
Re: Question, limiting factor. (Wes Jennings <wesj@halcyon.com>)
Re: Question, limiting factor. (Tom Thomson <tomt@teleport.com>)
LF Scenario (Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>)
Re: LF Scenario (Rob Bramley <Rob.Bramley@tvl.tcp.csiro.au>)
Eh reduction reagents (hruan@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Huada Ruan))
Re: Entropy and sustainability ("Cullan Riley" <cullan.riley@luton.ac.uk>)
Re: LF Scenario (rate@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Andrew Rate))
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:43:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Wes Jennings <wesj@halcyon.com>
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
Well soil netters, I must agree with Sally in general. There just is so
much gap between the theory and practice of growing agricultural crops. My
work in fertilizer trails was within a forest environment, and from an
applied science perspective. I found that things were not so very simple
as we would like to characterize them to be. Just find the limiting factor
and solve the problem. Model the whole plant/soil/climatic interactions
for a local farmer and the solution surfaces.
Well I know from experience that practical solutions to fertilizers issues
often arise from a healthy head scratching session coupled with keen
observations. A farmer with a plant growth problem rarely will have the
time or money to model plant growth parameters, do a controlled
experiment, or even to undertake pot trials. Left to his own means a
farmer will try something that seems right and that he can afford. He may
try fertilizing with NPK and then watch for the results. This is of course
the empirical method. Good farmers will tweak their agricultural practices
and herd toward desirable results. In the process they will generate a
great deal more understanding of their problems and practices than we
scientists tend to give them credit. In addition, I think we scientists
kid ourselves if we think we can solve complex interactions like the
plant, soil, and available nutrients interface. This system is simply to
dynamic and constantly changing over time and space. We can arrive at some
general principles for fertilization that tend to apply for a regional
area, but the farmer is still left with a head scratching session for his
specific tract of land.
Maybe this would be a healthy exercise. What fertilization principles (or
finding) have we as scientists or practioners found that would be useful
to share with those on the soils list. Here is my first statement.
PRINCIPLE 1. I have found that relating plant responses to soil nutrient
status is statistically more significant than sampling for nutrient status
via foliar analysis. This may not be universally true, but I suspect it
generally holds true. We could discuss the reasons why, but I would be
more interested to hear other fertilization principles from others.
On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Sally Officer wrote:
> Comment: Don't forget that certain plants also have the ability to screen
> the soil
> solution nutrients as the nutrients cross the cell membranes. I am also not
> sure
> that simply testing the plant material provides a clear indication of plant
> nutrition, as the plants also use alot of "in house" screening and sinks
> :-) confused?
> I guess I am saying that I think it is important to remember that plants can
> be as complicated and variable as the soil that they grow on. Can they really
> be reduced to simple models? I know I won't be popular for saying this :=0
> but we have been trying to fit plant-soil systems into tidy models for a long
> time, and they still seem to elude us. Are we barking up the wrong tree??
> Scuse me while I run for the fire extinguisher
> :-)
> Sally
>
> ???!!!!oooooOOOOOPPPPPSSSsssssss.....
> Sally Officer
> New Zealand
> Land of the long grey rain cloud!!.
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 00:22:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Thomson <tomt@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
>Comment: Don't forget that certain plants also have the ability to screen
>the soil solution nutrients as the nutrients cross the cell membranes. I
am also not
>sure that simply testing the plant material provides a clear indication of
plant
>nutrition, as the plants also use alot of "in house" screening and sinks
In regards to the above comment, what sort of ionic screening are yoou
discussing? Ionic balances are achieved via chemical equilibria balances in
studies, but how does the plant know??? Teleology aside...I think that the
plant moves "extra" nutrients in either ionic or complexed form to the
soil-root interface and there they await the uptake of some mass flow or
otherwise driven nutrient. In this theory, the plant has no control other
than moving extras to the "waiting" sink area. Does the screening of which
yoou speak involve more than a chemical equilibrium.
With respect to nutrients sinks within the plant I agree, where ansd when we
test is cruicial to accurate diagnoses. Soem work has been done for some
plants, but we are shooting in the dark with most of this. Look at the human
body, the most studied organism on the planet and how little we know of
it's functioning. Walter Kubiena discussed the role of form versus function
in the Soil Micromorphology book of his when he said that we can take a
watch and grind it up and analyse its elemental componets, but this tells us
nothing of its function.
Tom Thomson Northwest Agricultural Consulting
Dallas, Oregon 97338 Phone/FAX 503-623-7858
"The only difference between a problem and a solution is that
everyone understands the solution." Charles Kettering
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:26:59 +1100
From: Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>
Subject: LF Scenario
Hi all, thanks for your responses on this interesting subject of
soil limiting factors. I was wondering whether you all are interested in
discussing a fictional soil/plant situation to see what answers mulltiple
mussing's can achieve.
The fictional example is;
Soil pH (water) 4.97
Nitrate 20 ppm
P 17.3ppm
K 119ppm
Fe 805ppm
Al 192ppm
Cu, Zn, Co, Mo, B Extremely Low.
A crop of Tomato's to be grown, removal rate's of nutrients in kgs/Ha;
N 111
P 46
K 192
Ca 74
Mg 22
for a 57T/Ha crop.
I have tried to work out something similar to the above using CEC
and soil bulk densitys to calculate nutrient availability levels, but what
about the limiting factors (soil nutrition only), do you take them into
account. Surely if we can manipulate soil chemistry and water we can
have a large bearing on the final outcome and hence be able to create a
"response prediction model".
Area's that I do fall down in and would appreaciate further
information is how many ppm of each nutrient is good/bad, same in CEC.
Also another thought not related, silicon is + - 4 electrons soils
high in this, high fertility/CEC?, if so what about getting high Si content
rock dust and adding to soil.
Hope this provides some food for thought look forward to your reply's.
Chris Pritchard.
C.J.Pritchard
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 18:36:15 EST
From: Rob Bramley <Rob.Bramley@tvl.tcp.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: LF Scenario
To progress this, I would want to know what the CEC is and what analytical
methods were used for the various analytes you list.
At 02:20 AM 25/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
> Hi all, thanks for your responses on this interesting subject of
>soil limiting factors. I was wondering whether you all are interested in
>discussing a fictional soil/plant situation to see what answers mulltiple
>mussing's can achieve.
> The fictional example is;
>
> Soil pH (water) 4.97
> Nitrate 20 ppm
> P 17.3ppm
> K 119ppm
> Fe 805ppm
> Al 192ppm
> Cu, Zn, Co, Mo, B Extremely Low.
>
> A crop of Tomato's to be grown, removal rate's of nutrients in kgs/Ha;
> N 111
> P 46
> K 192
> Ca 74
> Mg 22
>for a 57T/Ha crop.
> I have tried to work out something similar to the above using CEC
>and soil bulk densitys to calculate nutrient availability levels, but what
>about the limiting factors (soil nutrition only), do you take them into
>account. Surely if we can manipulate soil chemistry and water we can
>have a large bearing on the final outcome and hence be able to create a
>"response prediction model".
> Area's that I do fall down in and would appreaciate further
>information is how many ppm of each nutrient is good/bad, same in CEC.
> Also another thought not related, silicon is + - 4 electrons soils
>high in this, high fertility/CEC?, if so what about getting high Si content
>rock dust and adding to soil.
> Hope this provides some food for thought look forward to your reply's.
> Chris Pritchard.
>C.J.Pritchard
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------
Dr Rob Bramley, Senior Research Scientist - Soil and Environmental Chemistry.
CSIRO Division of Soils, Davies Laboratory, Townsville.
Post: PMB Aitkenvale, Qld 4814, Australia. Tel: 077-538591 Fax: 077-538650
Email: Rob.Bramley@tvl.soils.csiro.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:27:10 +0800
From: hruan@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Huada Ruan)
Subject: Eh reduction reagents
Dear all:
I would appreciate if anyone may send me information about Eh reduction
reagents used for phosphate adsorption and desorption for determination of
P dynamics as affected by Eh and the competitive ions.
Many thanks in advance.
Huada Ruan
_____________________________________________________
Dr. Huada Ruan
Soil Science and Plant Nutrition
Faculty of Agriculture
The University of WA
Nedlands, WA 6907
Tel: (61 9) 380 2502
Fax: (61 9) 380 1050
E-mail: hruan@uniwa.uwa.edu.au
______________________________________________________
>From ???@??? Thu Dec 07 16:20:46 1995
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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 15:37:41 +1000
Subject: INFORMATION ON QUT'S POSTDOCTORAL FELLOWSHIPS
To: hruan@uniwa.uwa.edu.au
Cc: r.frost@qut.edu.au
Message-id: <9512070537.AA23124@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
X-Mailer: <Windows Eudora Version 2.0.2>
Dear Huada Ruan
Can you please indicate your mailing address so that I can post the QUT
Postdoctoral Brochure to you?
Please note the following:
*The next round of applications close at the end of March, 1996
*The relevant contact for the Postdoctoral Scheme is Michelle Foley
(07) 3864 2091(until 22/12/95). Please contact (07) 3864 5042
(Office of Research) after that date as the new Administration
Officer for the scheme is yet to be determined.
Regards
Matthew
Matthew Schlitz
Administration Officer (Research Students)
Research Students Section
Office of Research
Queensland University of Technology
GPO Box 2434
Brisbane Qld 4001
Australia
Tel: +61 7 3864 1839
Fax: +61 7 3864 5165
Email: m.schlitz@qut.edu.au
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:33:23 GMT
From: "Cullan Riley" <cullan.riley@luton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
On the subject of sustainability and entropy I would like to make to
minor but none the less essential points (the are open for
discussion) :
* Firstly the use of the word sustainability is confusing an
already overcrowded issue. Sustanabililty although a dynamic process
is concerned with acheiving a steady state. This would lead to a
system that would progress nowhere. For instance, consider a system
that reached this fabled "sustainability" position tomorrow(t=0) .
In t+10 time units the sustainability of the system is based upon
environmental factors that are out of date by a factor of 10. A more
suitable and environmentally robust notion is that of sustainable
development. This is a concept whereby systems maintain their
ability to develop.....
* Secondly consider thermodynamic equilibrium a property similar
to absolute zero....The closer a system moves towards it the more
infinitely smaller the posible steps needed to reach it and therefore
the more unlikely the acheivement.
As a passing question. Has anybody questioned that the idea of
statistical entropy proposed by Boltzmann is founded upon the basic
notion of equiporbability of occurrence.........
Yours Cullan Riley
> Dear Wouter:
> I started this discussion topic yesterday and I think one of the factors
> that one could monitor to at least get an idea of entropy in a soil-plant
> system is the audit of small molecules as cited by Addiscott in his paper
> but I think that monitoring microbial populations would also give a good
> idea as soil microbiology mainly is one of the most important factors
> that control any system in a steady state.
> I agree on your request of Richard's rejected paper.
> Yours sincerely,
> Miguel Cooper
> Universidade de Sao Paulo
> Brazil
>
> On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, WOUTER DE LANGE - STUDENT wrote:
>
> > Another lurker here. And another interessted reader. In looking at
> > soil entropy, what are the key factors involved? Would one monitor
> > the loss of nutrients, temperature, water... Maybe we could monitor
> > the microbial populations? But I also think we'll end up with the
> > chaos theory, and use thousands of factors.... Maybe I should read
> > Richard's article again. How about a copy of the rejected paragraph
> > posted here?
> >
> > Best
> > Wouter
> >
> > > As a lurker, perhaps my voice is of less weight than those who actually
> > > work in soils science, however, this subject also interests me (from the
> > > point of view of reducing the reductionism). So if it turns out that
> > > others would rather not use this forum for this discussion, I would ask you
> > > in advance to keep me posted as to the venue you will use.
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot.
> > >
> >
> > Wouter de Lange
> > Dept Microbiology and Biochemistry
> > University of the Orange Free State
> > PO Box 339
> > Bloemfontein
> > 9300
> > South Africa
> > +27-51-401-2124 (Voice)
> > +27-51-482004 (Fax)
> > wouter@wwg3.uovs.ac.za ...risen
> >
> Cullan Riley
Graduate School
Science and Computing
University of Luton
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:42:45 +0800
From: rate@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Andrew Rate)
Subject: Re: LF Scenario
Chris Pritchard wrote,
> Also another thought not related, silicon is + - 4 electrons soils
>high in this, high fertility/CEC?, if so what about getting high Si content
>rock dust and adding to soil.
Unfortunately CEC depends on many more factors than simply the valence of
the cations in soil minerals. A fair generalisation is that primary
minerals such as would be derived from rock dust don't have large "charged
surfaces" because:
(i) their cationic charge is balanced by structural anions such as O2- or
OH- (pardon lack of superscripts)
(ii) their relatively large particle size and consequent low surface area
means that any negative "lattice" charge developed by isomorphous
substitution will be balanced by internal cations rather than external
exchangeable cations
(iii) the primary source of negative charge and thus CEC for silicate
minerals is the isomorphous substitution mentioned above (ie. substitution
of a cation of lower valence for one of higher valence eg. Al replaces Si,
Mg replaces Al), and not all minerals, even secondary minerals, have
significant isomorphous substitution.
Examples
1. Granite dust contains a lot of silicon in quartz and feldspars, and a
smaller proportion of micas etc., but would have a very low CEC because
quartz and feldspars fall into group (i) above, and micas into group (ii)
2. Even some relatively silicon-rich secondary minerals such as kaolinite
(common K-feldspar weathering product, a major clay mineral in many
Australian soils) have low CEC vaues, due to low isomorphous substitution
in their crystal structure [(iii) above].
In short, no, adding rock dust won't improve your CEC, especially in the
short-term. You'd be better adding some form of organic matter. Some rock
dusts might act as a form of slow-release K fertiliser.
A long answer to a short question!
regards,
Andrew.
Andrew Rate (rate@uniwa.uwa.edu.au)
Soil Science and Plant Nutrition Group, University of Western Australia,
WA 6907, AUSTRALIA. Telephone: +61 9 380 2500 Fax: +61 9 380 1050
World Wide Web: http://www.general.uwa.edu.au/u/soilweb/
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Wed Nov 27 00:05 EST 1996
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:51:49 -0600
Message-Id: <199611270451.AA02798@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 645
Contents:
Cooperative Research (ag. examples) (John Harms <jharms@OCE.ORST.EDU>)
Re: Entropy and sustainability (Miguel Cooper <mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br>)
GROUNDWATER (kenbannister@groundwater.com (Kenneth E. Bannister))
Re: Question, limiting factor. (S.J.Officer@massey.ac.nz (Sally Officer))
Re: Question, limiting factor. (S.J.Officer@massey.ac.nz (Sally Officer))
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:11:36 -0800 (PST)
From: John Harms <jharms@OCE.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Cooperative Research (ag. examples)
Apologies for cross postings....
I am engaged in a research project which is examining the efficacy and
feasibility of incorporating data gathered from Oregon's commercial
fishing industry (through logbooks, etc.) in the formation of fishery
management plans. Although this may not seem relevant to agriculture,
please read on.
To increase the perspective of my research, I am looking for examples of
this type of cooperative data gathering in other natural resource
industries such as agriculture, ranching and forestry. I am familiar in a
generic sense with cooperative agriculture programs where farmers are
paid (or offered some other type of incentive) by an agency or private
consulting firm to grow certain types of crops (or use different soil
types or techniques, provide different feeds, etc.) for research purposes.
I am looking for specific examples of this type of cooperation. Even if
the particular program was not generally considered a success, the
information would be of great interest to me. Precedents, citations, or
points of contact will all be greatly appreciated. If any readers would
like, I'd be pleased to broadcast this information in condensed form
over the maillist.
Thanks in advance,
John Harms
Oregon State University
jharms@oce.orst.edu
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:26:36 -0200 (BDB)
From: Miguel Cooper <mcooper@carpa.ciagri.usp.br>
Subject: Re: Entropy and sustainability
Dear Cullan:
On your first point I think your term sustainable development is quite
adequate to describe sustainability. We can consider that a system with
sustainable development in time could have a succession of steady states
in which in each of them the production of entropy is minimum or at least
tends to minimum, in this case we could have a system that progresses.
As for your second consideration generally thermodinamic equillibrium is
tentatively reached in closed systems, but when we talk about soil-plant
systems we are working with open systems where we have to work with
non-equillibrium thermodynamics in which steady states are seeked.
Yours sincerely
Miguel
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Cullan Riley wrote:
>
> On the subject of sustainability and entropy I would like to make to
> minor but none the less essential points (the are open for
> discussion) :
>
> * Firstly the use of the word sustainability is confusing an
> already overcrowded issue. Sustanabililty although a dynamic process
> is concerned with acheiving a steady state. This would lead to a
> system that would progress nowhere. For instance, consider a system
> that reached this fabled "sustainability" position tomorrow(t=0) .
> In t+10 time units the sustainability of the system is based upon
> environmental factors that are out of date by a factor of 10. A more
> suitable and environmentally robust notion is that of sustainable
> development. This is a concept whereby systems maintain their
> ability to develop.....
>
> * Secondly consider thermodynamic equilibrium a property similar
> to absolute zero....The closer a system moves towards it the more
> infinitely smaller the posible steps needed to reach it and therefore
> the more unlikely the acheivement.
>
> As a passing question. Has anybody questioned that the idea of
> statistical entropy proposed by Boltzmann is founded upon the basic
> notion of equiporbability of occurrence.........
>
> Yours Cullan Riley
>
> > Dear Wouter:
> > I started this discussion topic yesterday and I think one of the factors
> > that one could monitor to at least get an idea of entropy in a soil-plant
> > system is the audit of small molecules as cited by Addiscott in his paper
> > but I think that monitoring microbial populations would also give a good
> > idea as soil microbiology mainly is one of the most important factors
> > that control any system in a steady state.
> > I agree on your request of Richard's rejected paper.
> > Yours sincerely,
> > Miguel Cooper
> > Universidade de Sao Paulo
> > Brazil
> >
> > On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, WOUTER DE LANGE - STUDENT wrote:
> >
> > > Another lurker here. And another interessted reader. In looking at
> > > soil entropy, what are the key factors involved? Would one monitor
> > > the loss of nutrients, temperature, water... Maybe we could monitor
> > > the microbial populations? But I also think we'll end up with the
> > > chaos theory, and use thousands of factors.... Maybe I should read
> > > Richard's article again. How about a copy of the rejected paragraph
> > > posted here?
> > >
> > > Best
> > > Wouter
> > >
> > > > As a lurker, perhaps my voice is of less weight than those who actually
> > > > work in soils science, however, this subject also interests me (from the
> > > > point of view of reducing the reductionism). So if it turns out that
> > > > others would rather not use this forum for this discussion, I would ask you
> > > > in advance to keep me posted as to the venue you will use.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks a lot.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Wouter de Lange
> > > Dept Microbiology and Biochemistry
> > > University of the Orange Free State
> > > PO Box 339
> > > Bloemfontein
> > > 9300
> > > South Africa
> > > +27-51-401-2124 (Voice)
> > > +27-51-482004 (Fax)
> > > wouter@wwg3.uovs.ac.za ...risen
> > >
> > Cullan Riley
> Graduate School
> Science and Computing
> University of Luton
>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:46:05 -0500 (EST)
From: kenbannister@groundwater.com (Kenneth E. Bannister)
Subject: GROUNDWATER
GROUNDWATER - An Internet Forum
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Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:53:14 +1200
From: S.J.Officer@massey.ac.nz (Sally Officer)
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
>In regards to the above comment, what sort of ionic screening are yoou
>discussing? Ionic balances are achieved via chemical equilibria balances in
>studies, but how does the plant know??? Teleology aside...I think that the
>plant moves "extra" nutrients in either ionic or complexed form to the
>soil-root interface and there they await the uptake of some mass flow or
>otherwise driven nutrient. In this theory, the plant has no control other
>than moving extras to the "waiting" sink area. Does the screening of which
>yoou speak involve more than a chemical equilibrium.
I guess I was talking about the general movement of ions across cell
membranes. Ions are taken up using ion specific "pumps"
that use energy to move the ion across the cell membrane, so, to my mind,
the plant does alot of active "screening" of the soil solution. Plants
manipulate chemical equilibria processess very strongly, both internally
and in relation to the soil, so I don't see them as just passive recipients.
I'm not sure what you mean about extra nutrients at the soil-root interface.
Plants generally move ions up into the leaves, continuously moving the sink
points around to match the developmental needs of the various parts of the
plant.
Are you talking about movemant of ions within the plant, or back into the soil?
Sally
???!!!!oooooOOOOOPPPPPSSSsssssss.....
Sally Officer
New Zealand
Land of the long grey rain cloud!!.
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:12:43 +1200
From: S.J.Officer@massey.ac.nz (Sally Officer)
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
Just find the limiting factor
>and solve the problem. Model the whole plant/soil/climatic interactions
>for a local farmer and the solution surfaces.
:-) Indeed!!
I work in hill country, where the limiting factors would generally
be 1. Water, 2. Temperature, 3. soil depth- soil fertility is way
down the list.
> We can arrive at some
>general principles for fertilization that tend to apply for a regional
>area, but the farmer is still left with a head scratching session for his
>specific tract of land.
Actually I like to combine the two. I get most of the picture from
discussing the fertiliser and production history of the farm with the farmer,
and then comparing this with the regional information. The soil tests are
useful
as a check for severe problems that may have built up over time, but I don't
think they can by relied upon for detail. After making a general reccomdation
I like to get the farmer to try several solutions for themselves, e.g.
applying 4 rates of fertiliser to one paddock, so they can form their own
conclusions about my reccomendations. I think they appreciate gaining a
greater understanding of their
soil fertility situation as a whole, rather than just being faced with yet
another
number that may or may not be correct.
Sally
???!!!!oooooOOOOOPPPPPSSSsssssss.....
Sally Officer
New Zealand
Land of the long grey rain cloud!!.
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Thu Nov 28 00:06 EST 1996
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:52:29 -0600
Message-Id: <199611280452.AA26468@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 646
Contents:
Re: LF Scenario (Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>)
Re: LF Scenario (Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:36:39 +1100
From: Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>
Subject: Re: LF Scenario
At 02:37 25/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
>To progress this, I would want to know what the CEC is and what analytical
>methods were used for the various analytes you list.
>
>> The fictional example is;
>>
>> Soil pH (water) 4.97
>> Nitrate 20 ppm
>> P 17.3ppm
>> K 119ppm
>> Fe 805ppm
>> Al 192ppm
>> Cu, Zn, Co, Mo, B Extremely Low.
>>
>> A crop of Tomato's to be grown, removal rate's of nutrients in kgs/Ha;
>> N 111
>> P 46
>> K 192
>> Ca 74
>> Mg 22
>>for a 57T/Ha crop.
>>
I have the
C.J.Pritchard
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:44:26 +1100
From: Chris pritchard <agcontn@rtc.campaspe.net.au>
Subject: Re: LF Scenario
At 02:37 25/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
>To progress this, I would want to know what the CEC is and what analytical
>methods were used for the various analytes you list.
>
>> The fictional example is;
>>
>> Soil pH (water) 4.97
>> Nitrate 20 ppm
>> P 17.3ppm
>> K 119ppm
>> Fe 805ppm
>> Al 192ppm
>> Cu, Zn, Co, Mo, B Extremely Low.
>>
>> A crop of Tomato's to be grown, removal rate's of nutrients in kgs/Ha;
>> N 111
>> P 46
>> K 192
>> Ca 74
>> Mg 22
>>for a 57T/Ha crop.
I have the TEC for this soil it is 834. The extraction process used
to get the other results is an ammonium accetate and EDTA at pH 7.0. I dont
have a soil bulk density. Why is there a TEC and CEC and which is the better
figure to look at?. It annoys me that there is no standardised reporting
method which means every time you pick up a report from another company you
cant relate these figures to the first set of companys figures.
Regards,
Chris.
C.J.Pritchard
End of Digest
>From root@crcnis1.unl.edu Fri Nov 29 12:21 EST 1996
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:08:08 -0600
Message-Id: <199611291708.AA10964@crcnis1.unl.edu>
Subject: SOILS-L digest 647
Contents:
Re: Question, limiting factor. (Tom Thomson <tomt@teleport.com>)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 08:53:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Thomson <tomt@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Question, limiting factor.
>I guess I was talking about the general movement of ions across cell
>membranes.
Oh!! I was speaking of the root soil interface here.
>Are you talking about movemant of ions within the plant, or back into the soil?
Here I was wondering about the actual entry into the plant. Ions arrive at
the plant mainly through mass flow/diffusion processes. I would assume that
the plant can not and has no need to uptake all the ions which arrive at its
table. Also, since the plant has to maintain ionic balance, there must be a
surplus of nutrients at the soil root interface. If one considers the large
diversity of other organisms which live within the rhizosphere taking
advantage of the buffet there and also making available to the plant
otherwise unavailable nutrients ie PGPRs (plant growth promoting
rhizobacteria), then my assumptions seem plausible.
Tom Thomson Northwest Agricultural Consulting
Dallas, Oregon 97338 Phone/FAX 503-623-7858
"The only difference between a problem and a solution is that
everyone understands the solution." Charles Kettering
End of Digest
Prepared by Steve Modena, AB4EL
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