Article: 223615 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ml Subject: Re: ferrious vs non ferric References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:47:55 GMT In article , Richard Clark wrote: > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 00:24:27 GMT, ml wrote: > > >what would be the effect compartively speaking > > Hi Myles, > > Brass and Iron have the opposite effects for coupling coils. Extending > this abstraction guarantees nothing as you may need a considerable > amount of either to replicate that in an antenna's field. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC tnx v much Article: 223616 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:22:52 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: fun with loading References: <403942te0vdkte65fo3rsgcuga3t2pqtki@4ax.com> <931a421onp5m58fsnpe16kll01qv46t5d2@4ax.com> <44457d74$0$76686$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <44462b9c$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Richard Clark wrote: > Hi Tom, > > If the mood strikes me, I will see how much effort it takes to blow > away his "efficient" antenna. Seeing how he has no answers for its > construction, I can easily impose my own choices like an high E piano > string radiator mid loaded with a squirrel cage over a radial field of > rusting springs from a burnt-out mattress. There should be room for > improvement over that using a coat hanger with distributed loads of > barn nails over the roof of a 1948 Hudson. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC I would prefer a radiator made from half inch PVC filled with a dilute sodium chloride solution. If you put a valve at the bottom, it's a snap to adjust resonance. tom K0TAR Article: 223617 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1144647060.456337.126840@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <5nC_f.5711$YT1.592@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <6ZF_f.64716$H71.32645@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:50:28 GMT Tom Donaly wrote: > 4 Mhz is not 6.6 Mhz. Nobody said 4 MHz is 6.6 MHz. 4 MHz is 60% of 6.6 MHz and is therefore near 6.6 MHz. Dr. Corum says the lumped constant model fails at 0.04 wavelength. In his other paper, he says if the length of the wire used to wind the coil is 0.06 wavelength, it's time to switch over to the distributed network model. A 75m bugcatcher coil uses more than 0.06 wavelength of wire. Please explain the physics behind the velocity factor of a coil changing radically just because you cut it in half - assuming all other parameters are kept at the same value. Your model is known to fail at a point but you guys have no clue where that failure point is. You just have faith that you will never reach the failure point. But what if you have already reached it? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223618 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: fun with loading References: <403942te0vdkte65fo3rsgcuga3t2pqtki@4ax.com> <931a421onp5m58fsnpe16kll01qv46t5d2@4ax.com> <5pe1g.3040$Lm5.140@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:56:13 GMT Tom Donaly wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: > >> Tom Donaly wrote: >>> How do you know it's a "pure cosine wave," Cecil? >> >> Because Kraus says so? > > That's interesting. It means we don't need to use > NEC any more. As I said previously, it's only a pure cosine wave for a thin-wire dipole. NEC handles more than thin-wire dipoles. The coil adds a bulge to the thin-wire cosine wave but the overall envelope is clearly visible. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223619 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1144647060.456337.126840@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <5nC_f.5711$YT1.592@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <6ZF_f.64716$H71.32645@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:04:41 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: > > A 75m bugcatcher coil is self resonant at 6.6 MHz. That's > > near 4 MHz. Where is all your irrationality coming from? > > The exact quote from your message on April 11, at 9:57 am is copied > below. I don't see anything about a bugcatcher coil. The coil being discussed is a bugcatcher coil modeled in EZNEC. > Since the Corum paper highlighted the limitation for applicability of > the magic formula it is possible he thought that the limitation might be > important. The limitation that Dr. Corum highlighted was the failure of the lumped circuit model when the coil is self-resonant. He says that when we are within 17% of self-resonance, the lumped circuit model fails. Have you anything besides faith to prove that your model is valid within 60% of self-resonance? Please describe the physics behind a radical change in velocity factor (at the same frequency) when a coil is cut in half. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223620 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1144647060.456337.126840@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <6ZF_f.64716$H71.32645@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:27:40 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: > >> Cecil Moore wrote: >> > A 75m bugcatcher coil is self resonant at 6.6 MHz. That's >> > near 4 MHz. Where is all your irrationality coming from? >> >> The exact quote from your message on April 11, at 9:57 am is copied >> below. I don't see anything about a bugcatcher coil. > > > The coil being discussed is a bugcatcher coil modeled in EZNEC. > >> Since the Corum paper highlighted the limitation for applicability of >> the magic formula it is possible he thought that the limitation might >> be important. > > > The limitation that Dr. Corum highlighted was the failure of the > lumped circuit model when the coil is self-resonant. He says that > when we are within 17% of self-resonance, the lumped circuit model > fails. Have you anything besides faith to prove that your model > is valid within 60% of self-resonance? > > Please describe the physics behind a radical change in velocity > factor (at the same frequency) when a coil is cut in half. Cecil, You have really lost it. I gave you the exact quote, and you then proceed to talk about something else. It appears you did not really read and understand the Corum paper either. The portion I referred to you had nothing to say about lumped circuits or distributed circuits. It was merely a step in the mathematical analysis that leads to the magic formula for Vf. If you ignore the important limitations on the math analysis it is likely that any conclusions drawn will be incorrect. So let's throw the topic back to you. A straight wire has a Vf near 1. A resonant coil has a Vf of 0.01 or 0.02. So where and how does the Vf transition occur? For a coil of one turn? For a coil with a length of 15% of the resonant length? At some other coil length? Is the Vf transition abrupt or smooth? You seem to understand everything about coil Vf, so these should be easy questions for you. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223621 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Allisonnospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: M2 6 Meter Yegis Message-ID: <3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com> References: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:29:29 GMT On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:28:45 -0400, "Phil" wrote: >I am thinking for replacing my old Creative Design CL-6A 5 element 6 meter >yagis with one of the M Squared antennas, either a 6M7, 6M7JHV, or a 6M2WLC. >Does anyone know where there's any comparatiuve data on them or where there >are product reviews on the 6M7 or 6M2WLC (the JHV was in QST a few years >back)? > >Thanks > >Phil Finkle K6EID There ok if you want a thin element narrowband yagi. They do show SWR rise with ice and snow. Myself I'd want fatter elements for wider bandwidth and a bit more robust. Allison Article: 223622 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Caveat Lector" References: <828f4$4445947d$453d9423$16800@FUSE.NET> <124bb1keret5s0e@corp.supernews.com> <0tlb42pk4cirdabt2s0pnontcfu3lhj4gt@4ax.com> Subject: Re: antennas and rain Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:41:41 -0700 Some one wrote: > caveat: we only boast this to frighten Californians away - no one who > lives here is really impressed by the rain. Californians have a new scheme. We get Nevada license plates before moving to Wash out ton Query: where you from stranger? Answer: Nevada Podner (;-) -- CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be ! Article: 223623 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Caveat Lector" References: <828f4$4445947d$453d9423$16800@FUSE.NET> Subject: Re: antennas and rain Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:46:43 -0700 For trapped horizontal antennas, be sure to orient the drain holes downward Neglected to do this on my first tribander installation Traps wud fill with water, VSWR outta sight Had to wait for a week for them to dry out (;-) -- CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be ! Article: 223624 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: antennas and rain References: <828f4$4445947d$453d9423$16800@FUSE.NET> <124bb1keret5s0e@corp.supernews.com> <0tlb42pk4cirdabt2s0pnontcfu3lhj4gt@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:09:18 GMT > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC > caveat: we only boast this to frighten Californians away - no one who > lives here is really impressed by the rain. It works. We Californians are allergic to long periods of unremitting rain. It washes off the thin veneer of civilization. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 223625 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1144647060.456337.126840@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <6ZF_f.64716$H71.32645@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:15:40 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > news:Jzq1g.48539$_S7.27538@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com... > >>Gene Fuller wrote: >> >> >>>Cecil Moore wrote: >>> > A 75m bugcatcher coil is self resonant at 6.6 MHz. That's >>> > near 4 MHz. Where is all your irrationality coming from? >>> >>>The exact quote from your message on April 11, at 9:57 am is > > copied > >>>below. I don't see anything about a bugcatcher coil. >> >>The coil being discussed is a bugcatcher coil modeled in EZNEC. >> >> >>>Since the Corum paper highlighted the limitation for applicability > > of > >>>the magic formula it is possible he thought that the limitation > > might be > >>>important. >> >>The limitation that Dr. Corum highlighted was the failure of the >>lumped circuit model when the coil is self-resonant. He says that >>when we are within 17% of self-resonance, the lumped circuit model >>fails. Have you anything besides faith to prove that your model >>is valid within 60% of self-resonance? >> >>Please describe the physics behind a radical change in velocity >>factor (at the same frequency) when a coil is cut in half. >>-- > > ======================================== > Dear Cec, > > What is the failure mode? > Is it a sudden catastropic failure? > Or does it fail very slowly, gradually and gently? > > What is Dr.Corum a doctor of? > > From your quotes he sounds like a Quack. Or is he a Witch? > > What does he have to say about Fractals, E-H and the other wierd > contraptions? > > How many other worshipping followers does he have besides yourself? > > Or are you just pulling our varicose-veined legs? > > All rhetorical questions of course. Answers not required. > ---- > Your old, well-intentioned pal, Reg. > > There are two Drs. Corum. Perhaps they're a husband-husband team. At any rate, they're Cecil clones, manufacturing a controversy out of thin air and fighting valiantly for it. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 223626 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: fun with loading References: <403942te0vdkte65fo3rsgcuga3t2pqtki@4ax.com> <931a421onp5m58fsnpe16kll01qv46t5d2@4ax.com> <44457d74$0$76686$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44462b9c$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:17:06 GMT Tom Ring wrote: > Richard Clark wrote: > >> Hi Tom, >> >> If the mood strikes me, I will see how much effort it takes to blow >> away his "efficient" antenna. Seeing how he has no answers for its >> construction, I can easily impose my own choices like an high E piano >> string radiator mid loaded with a squirrel cage over a radial field of >> rusting springs from a burnt-out mattress. There should be room for >> improvement over that using a coat hanger with distributed loads of >> barn nails over the roof of a 1948 Hudson. >> >> 73's >> Richard Clark, KB7QHC > > > I would prefer a radiator made from half inch PVC filled with a dilute > sodium chloride solution. If you put a valve at the bottom, it's a snap > to adjust resonance. > > tom > K0TAR Have you tried beer? 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 223627 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Allisonnospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: M2 6 Meter Yegis Message-ID: References: <3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:31:29 GMT On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:03:22 +0100, "Reg Edwards" wrote: > > wrote in message >news:3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com... >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:28:45 -0400, "Phil" >> wrote: >> >> >I am thinking for replacing my old Creative Design CL-6A 5 element >6 meter >> >yagis with one of the M Squared antennas, either a 6M7, 6M7JHV, or >a 6M2WLC. >> >Does anyone know where there's any comparatiuve data on them or >where there >> >are product reviews on the 6M7 or 6M2WLC (the JHV was in QST a few >years >> >back)? >> > >> >Thanks >> > >> >Phil Finkle K6EID >> >> There ok if you want a thin element narrowband yagi. They do show >SWR >> rise with ice and snow. >> >> Myself I'd want fatter elements for wider bandwidth and a bit more >> robust. >> >> Allison >========================================= > >With ice and snow the SWR, if it's not perfect, and it never is, is >just as likely to improve as it is to get worse. > >It's radiating efficiciency what matters. And the SWR is no >indication of this. A change in SWR is just another symptom of the >presence of ice or snow. > >To see how much efficiency has deteriorated you would do better just >by looking out of the shack window at the weather conditions. From >appearances it is seldom as bad as you think! > >After all, all the SWR meter tells you is whether or not the load on >the transmitter is matched to 50 ohms. Just readjust the tuner if you >have one. >---- >Reg. Thats nice. Real worls is when the elements are drooping 10"-12" at the tips with ice the SWR is notably poor and the real worry is when will the bends set in if not a colapse. Around here ice and snow is a real worry. Also the narrow bandwidth is unattractive. I feel tuners for VHF antennas where reasonable operating bandwith is easily achieable is wasting power. It's not like were asking for more than 1-2% which is easy for yagis. Allison Article: 223628 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Allisonnospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: M2 6 Meter Yegis Message-ID: References: <3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:36:43 GMT On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:42:49 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT" wrote: > > wrote in message >news:3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com... >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:28:45 -0400, "Phil" >> wrote: >> >>>I am thinking for replacing my old Creative Design CL-6A 5 element 6 meter >>>yagis with one of the M Squared antennas, either a 6M7, 6M7JHV, or a >>>6M2WLC. >>>Does anyone know where there's any comparatiuve data on them or where >>>there >>>are product reviews on the 6M7 or 6M2WLC (the JHV was in QST a few years >>>back)? >>> >>>Thanks >>> >>>Phil Finkle K6EID >> >> There ok if you want a thin element narrowband yagi. They do show SWR >> rise with ice and snow. >> >> Myself I'd want fatter elements for wider bandwidth and a bit more >> robust. >> >> Allison >> >At least where I live, FM20, I don't see thin elements as a big deal. I have >had a KLM 50 - 7 LD up for over 20 years with no signs ef element damage. As >for bandwidth, 50.0 to 50.25 is really all you need for CW and SSB. > >Tam/WB2TT > There is a problem with that, 500kHz bandwidth is trivial at 50mhz so why accept it? If Ice is not a problem great! Can't ignore it here. One problem with M2s is that the cable to element coupler is sometimes a problem. Allison Article: 223629 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1144647060.456337.126840@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <6ZF_f.64716$H71.32645@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:52:39 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > You have really lost it. I gave you the exact quote, and you then > proceed to talk about something else. Your quote doesn't mean what you think it means. The velocity factor equation is appropriate for quarterwave resonance *and* any other length at the same frequency. The graph in the next column over shows coils of 10,000 turns per wavelength. It does NOT limit them to any length so your argument is bogus. Their goal was to find a VF equation that worked for quarterwave resonance but it works for a lot more than quarterwave resonance. It holds for any length as can be seen from Fig. 1. > So let's throw the topic back to you. Too late, I asked you first. Where are the laws of physics to back up your assertions? Certainly not contained in the Corum papers. Please provide some reference that asserts that the VF of a coil varies with its length while keeping all other parameters constant. The coil being modeled is 48 turns per foot. The wavelength is 246 feet. 48*246 = 11,808 turns per wavelength. That's on the Corum chart. There is NO minimum or maximum length requirement or constraint. According to the paper, the velocity factor is within 10% no matter what the length of the coil. So holding all the variables constant in the velocity factor equation and changing only the length is a valid way to calculate the approximate delay through the coil. It's the best way that we have so far. It is infinitely better than using a signal with unchanging phase to try to measure phase shift. > So where and how does the Vf transition occur? Just as in a transmission line, a VF transition occurs at an impedance discontinuity. For a complete helical antenna, there is no impedance discontinuity. For an antenna containing a coil and wire, there is an impedance discontinuity at the coil/wire interface. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223630 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steve Nosko" Subject: Re: antennas and rain Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:50:53 -0500 Message-ID: References: <828f4$4445947d$453d9423$16800@FUSE.NET> For those old enough to remember a colorful character, Jim Ricks, W9TO. He wrote a paper in the CFO news letter on the effect of different colored insulation on antenna wire. unfortunately I don'thave a copy so I don't know the best color. 73, Steve, K9DCI. There actually WAS such an article. "jawod" wrote in message news:828f4$4445947d$453d9423$16800@FUSE.NET... > I think I read in this newsgroup that a ham in the PNW waxed his dipole > to keep the rain off. I couldn't tell whether it was just a joke? > > In an area notorious for lots of rain, do hams in the Northwest really > wax their antennas? > > Even when waxed, what is the effect of rain/water on dipole > chararacteristics? > > John > AB8WH Article: 223631 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1144647060.456337.126840@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <6ZF_f.64716$H71.32645@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:03:51 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > What is the failure mode? > Is it a sudden catastropic failure? > Or does it fail very slowly, gradually and gently? It fails gradually. It fails earlier for phase calculations than it does for magnitude calculations. That's why the phase shifts reported here are completely invalid. Here's how it goes: 1. There is no phase shift through a lumped inductance. 2. The standing wave current with its unchanging phase shows zero phase shift through a loading coil. 3. Therefore, a real world loading shows zero phase shift just like a lumped inductance. The proof was preassumed and invalid measurements support the preassumed proof. Case closed! -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223632 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1144647060.456337.126840@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <6ZF_f.64716$H71.32645@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:06:13 GMT Tom Donaly wrote: > There are two Drs. Corum. Perhaps they're a husband-husband team. I believe they are brothers. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223633 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: tclay@qmc.ph.msstate.edu Subject: Re: M2 6 Meter Yegis Date: 19 Apr 2006 13:55:58 -0500 Message-ID: <87lku1mm2p.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> References: <3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com> >I am thinking for replacing my old Creative Design CL-6A 5 element 6 meter >yagis with one of the M Squared antennas, either a 6M7, 6M7JHV, or a 6M2WLC. >Does anyone know where there's any comparatiuve data on them or where there >are product reviews on the 6M7 or 6M2WLC (the JHV was in QST a few years >back)? > >Thanks > >Phil Finkle K6EID >There ok if you want a thin element narrowband yagi. They do show SWR >rise with ice and snow. > >Myself I'd want fatter elements for wider bandwidth and a bit more >robust. The design of the yagi (element lengths and spacing) has far greater influence on the bandwidth than the element diameter. In other words, a wire yagi could have wider bandwidth than one made with tubing. It's also hard to say that larger diameter elements always survive ice and wind better, as there are many variables: taper schedule, tubing thickness, etc. Tor N4OGW Article: 223634 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1144647060.456337.126840@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <6ZF_f.64716$H71.32645@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:31:51 GMT Cecil, The "quote" was from your message, not the Corum paper. It is highly likely that it does not mean what I think it means. It probably does not even mean the same thing to you after a few minutes. As for the Corum paper, would you be so kind as to point out the page where it is written: The velocity factor equation is appropriate for quarterwave resonance *and* any other length at the same frequency. I found the section that says the formula is appropriate at resonance, and I must have missed the part that says the formula works for any length as long as the frequency is maintained. You still have not explained at what point the transition from Vf ~ 1 to Vf < 0.02 occurs. 73, Gene W4SZ Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: > >> You have really lost it. I gave you the exact quote, and you then >> proceed to talk about something else. > > > Your quote doesn't mean what you think it means. The velocity > factor equation is appropriate for quarterwave resonance *and* > any other length at the same frequency. The graph in the next > column over shows coils of 10,000 turns per wavelength. It does > NOT limit them to any length so your argument is bogus. > > Their goal was to find a VF equation that worked for quarterwave > resonance but it works for a lot more than quarterwave resonance. > It holds for any length as can be seen from Fig. 1. Article: 223635 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:05:40 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: fun with loading References: <403942te0vdkte65fo3rsgcuga3t2pqtki@4ax.com> <931a421onp5m58fsnpe16kll01qv46t5d2@4ax.com> <44457d74$0$76686$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44462b9c$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <44469814$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Donaly wrote: >> I would prefer a radiator made from half inch PVC filled with a dilute >> sodium chloride solution. If you put a valve at the bottom, it's a >> snap to adjust resonance. >> >> tom >> K0TAR > > > Have you tried beer? > 73, > Tom Donaly, KA6RUH What!!?? That would be a waste of beer. Well, unless it was Budweiser. tom K0TAR Article: 223636 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. From: Skirt Chaser Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:54:39 GMT ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. The ARRL wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud organization, and it turned liberal. Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of the Democratic party, and always in your face. It's not even safe to take your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking his ass just ain't right. The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened to our radio groups. SC Article: 223637 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "FDR" <_remove_spam_block_rzitka@hotmail.com> References: Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:02:04 GMT "Skirt Chaser" wrote in message news:jsx1g.131$Vn.21@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net... > > ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of > the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when > I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of > queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. The ARRL > wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy > family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud > organization, and it turned liberal. > > Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of > the Democratic party, and always in your face. It's not even safe to take > your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree > with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking > his ass just ain't right. The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened > to our radio groups. > > SC > Get a life. Article: 223638 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Allisonnospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: M2 6 Meter Yegis Message-ID: References: <3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com> <87lku1mm2p.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:53:46 GMT On 19 Apr 2006 13:55:58 -0500, tclay@qmc.ph.msstate.edu wrote: > >>I am thinking for replacing my old Creative Design CL-6A 5 element 6 meter >>yagis with one of the M Squared antennas, either a 6M7, 6M7JHV, or a 6M2WLC. >>Does anyone know where there's any comparatiuve data on them or where there >>are product reviews on the 6M7 or 6M2WLC (the JHV was in QST a few years >>back)? >> >>Thanks >> >>Phil Finkle K6EID > >>There ok if you want a thin element narrowband yagi. They do show SWR >>rise with ice and snow. >> >>Myself I'd want fatter elements for wider bandwidth and a bit more >>robust. > >The design of the yagi (element lengths and spacing) has far greater >influence on the bandwidth than the element diameter. In other words, >a wire yagi could have wider bandwidth than one made with tubing. > >It's also hard to say that larger diameter elements always survive >ice and wind better, as there are many variables: taper schedule, tubing >thickness, etc. > >Tor >N4OGW Yep and all are modelable. However design tools do confirm that thicker (dia/wavelength) will generally be broader in practice. As to structure, there are a raft of good tools to study that and work out a taper that is robust. However at 6M you have to be way off to miss on structure as elements are less than 120" overall. NEC, YO, yagistress and QY4 are very useful. Having cut aluminum and made a few beams, loops and verticals for 6m/2m/70cm the practical engineering side is not foreign to me. Allison Article: 223639 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Lancer Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Message-ID: <08ed42plsgq488ftdvblgr0hv6eqikboph@news.easynews.com> References: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:33:00 GMT On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:54:39 GMT, Skirt Chaser wrote: > >ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of >the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when >I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of >queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. The ARRL >wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy >family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud >organization, and it turned liberal. Which issue of QST was that? Wanna bet that N8WWM was in that DXpedition picture? > >Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of >the Democratic party, and always in your face. It's not even safe to take >your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree >with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking >his ass just ain't right. The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened >to our radio groups. > >SC Article: 223640 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Phil Wheeler Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:19:01 GMT Skirt Chaser wrote: > ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of > the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when > I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of > queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. The ARRL > wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy > family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud > organization, and it turned liberal. > > Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of > the Democratic party, and always in your face. It's not even safe to take > your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree > with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking > his ass just ain't right. The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened > to our radio groups. > > SC > "Skirt Chaser": Monicker like that, and message above, suggests you are overcompensating for your own latent tendencies. Or perhaps you've been to close to your antenna while transmitting with a California Kilowatt. "Our radio groups": What's your call, OM? "Military wing of the Democratic party": You mean Hillary or who? Phil, W7OX Article: 223641 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1144647060.456337.126840@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:32:53 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > > "We have found that this expression gives acceptable results (errors > less than 10%) for most practical applications that involve wave > propagation on helical resonators ..." Absolutely no mention of > 14WL self-resonance. Cecil, Oh darn! There's that nasty reference to "resonator" again. You really need to read the paper again and attempt to understand it. Try the left-hand column on the page for the fundamental mathematical limitation that underlies everything else on the page, including Figure 1. Since this is a question of literacy and not technology there is little more to be said here. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223642 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim - NN7K Subject: Re: M2 6 Meter Yegis References: <3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:39:04 GMT And, here in DM09, , Elevation 5K feet, with winds in excess or 70 MPH, my 7 El holds up just fine , except for when the TOWER came down! But, with a total of 49 states worked,under this call find it totally adiquite- and looked at the specs for this, vs. the "JHV" 7 el, think the JHV is about a foot longer, has better F/B, and .2 (2/10) dB extra gain! Think ANY of these would work fine for all but the most discriminateing op (and never know the difference)! and also, consider that get iceing here, maybe 2 inch dia. , and NOT raining aluminium (elements falling off), like SOME other brands! Jim NN7K Tam/WB2TT wrote: > wrote in message > news:3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com... > >>On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:28:45 -0400, "Phil" >>wrote: >> >> >>>I am thinking for replacing my old Creative Design CL-6A 5 element 6 meter >>>yagis with one of the M Squared antennas, either a 6M7, 6M7JHV, or a >>>6M2WLC. >>>Does anyone know where there's any comparatiuve data on them or where >>>there >>>are product reviews on the 6M7 or 6M2WLC (the JHV was in QST a few years >>>back)? >>> >>>Thanks >>> >>>Phil Finkle K6EID >> >>There ok if you want a thin element narrowband yagi. They do show SWR >>rise with ice and snow. >> >>Myself I'd want fatter elements for wider bandwidth and a bit more >>robust. >> >>Allison >> > > At least where I live, FM20, I don't see thin elements as a big deal. I have > had a KLM 50 - 7 LD up for over 20 years with no signs ef element damage. As > for bandwidth, 50.0 to 50.25 is really all you need for CW and SSB. > > Tam/WB2TT > > Article: 223643 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim - NN7K Subject: Re: M2 6 Meter Yegis (more) References: <3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com> <87lku1mm2p.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:55:06 GMT OH, and consider (the comparison of (for DX engineerings 10 EL , with 1/2 inch dia elements), at 50 foot boom, vs. the M-squared, , at the same length, both have about the same gain, BUT at 35 # weight for the M-squared, and in EXCESS of 90 lbs for the DX-10 (BEFORE ICE LOADING!) just WHICH would you want to stand under, in winter ??? Thanks, I'll stick with my mini-monster (at about 17 Lbs) ! Jim NN7K Article: 223644 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Allisonnospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: M2 6 Meter Yegis Message-ID: References: <3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 00:15:16 GMT On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:39:04 GMT, Jim - NN7K wrote: >And, here in DM09, , Elevation 5K feet, with winds in excess >or 70 MPH, my 7 El holds up just fine , except for when the TOWER >came down! But, with a total of 49 states worked,under this call >find it totally adiquite- and looked at the specs for this, vs. >the "JHV" 7 el, think the JHV is about a foot longer, has better >F/B, and .2 (2/10) dB extra gain! Think ANY of these would work fine >for all but the most discriminateing op (and never know the difference)! >and also, consider that get iceing here, maybe 2 inch dia. , and NOT >raining aluminium (elements falling off), like SOME other brands! > Jim NN7K > Some antennas are just junk and the element dropper I bet is CC. ;) As to good.. humm. Work my first 22 states with a home brew 2 element at 20Ft and 5W HB radio. Brought it up to 41 with 10W and an old CC A503 at 20ft and went for 4 elements on 30ft tower and 20w to make it to 48 states, 12 countries total. Persistance, but I think the next cycle will get me the two non CONUS states. Seriously .2 db is meaningless. Better F/B (by at least 3db) is worth something though. However I also found that my wire at 28ft (EDZ) and the loop is far more useful for its lack of F/B as I at least hear there is something to go find with the beam. To do this I take the measurments of the antenna I'm looking and and feed NEC2 for an antenna modeling exercise. Sometimes by remodeling can make a antenna thats only soso like the CC 5 element to decent . Features I look for: *Good bandwidth flat or less than 1.7:1 from below 50 to at least 51mhz. *Good F/B atleast 25db or better from 50.0 to 51.0. * mechanically rugged and well made (Good QC) here in MA we see noreasters, hurricanes, Flying tree branches, ice and snow and the other day I had hawk sitting on one of the antennas. * smooth performance curves across the low end or beyond. >>doen't help much if the F/B goes to nothing at the edges where cruft from the back might get into the RX.<< Allison Article: 223645 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Dave Heil Subject: Re: M2 6 Meter Yegis References: <3mec42ldh6hqdp2nk0n1vh9b4t3i8qf2j1@4ax.com> Message-ID: <7GA1g.154$Vn.26@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 00:34:11 GMT Allisonnospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net wrote: > There is a problem with that, 500kHz bandwidth is trivial at 50mhz > so why accept it? "Accept"? The M2 antennas work hunky dory where all the activity is. > If Ice is not a problem great! Can't ignore it here. I've used my 6M5 in Finland and here in West Virginia. Ice and snow don't seem to change anything. > One problem with M2s is that the cable to element coupler is > sometimes a problem. I got my 6M5 in '88, part way through an assignment in Guinea-Bissau. It lasted through three additional African assignments with heat, humidity, dust and rain. It went through three years in wintery Finland, all with the original element to cable coupler. A 2003 tower failure made it necessary to replace two directors. While I was at it, I replaced the original coaxial balun. That's pretty good service. In fact, after the tower collapse, I replaced the Cushcraft 2m and 70cm boomers with similar M2 models. > Allison Dave K8MN Article: 223646 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: fun with loading Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:56:07 -0500 Message-ID: <2054-4446DC27-98@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net> References: <1145461304.602324.257300@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> Tom, K7ITM wrote: "(Now if W8JI will just add something to this subthread, we`ll have four of us in a row---)" Like the beat, beat, beat of a tom-tom--- No, that`s the wrong song. It`s the one Merv Griffen sang with the Freddy Martin Orchestra: "I`ve got a loverly bunch of coconuts. There they are all standing in a row. Large ones, small ones, some as big as your `ead, Give `em a twist, a flick of your wrist, that`s wot the showman said." Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 223647 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: paint on antenna Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:16:44 -0500 Message-ID: <2055-4446E0FC-22@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net> References: Sal M, Onella wrote: "We paint them now, too." When I was in the navy, WW-2, the expression was: "If it moves, salute it. If it doesn`t, paint it!" Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 223648 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1144647060.456337.126840@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 01:51:19 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Oh darn! There's that nasty reference to "resonator" again. You really > need to read the paper again and attempt to understand it. Uhhhhh Gene, a 75m bugcatcher coil is a "resonator" that resonates an 8 foot mobile antenna on 75m. Take a look at Figure 2 in Dr. Corum's paper. It looks just like a top- loaded 160m mobile antenna. > Try the left-hand column on the page for the fundamental mathematical > limitation that underlies everything else on the page, including Figure 1. There is a test equation to see if a particular coil is outside the fundamental mathematicdal limitations. A 75m bugcatcher coil is less than half the limit value. Let me show you how to use Fig. 1. The coil that we have been discussing is 6 inches in diameter and has 4 turns per inch. That makes D/lamda = 2.0 x 10^3. That's just about in the middle of the graphic. The turns per wavelength is 48*246 = 11,808. That's just to the left of the left hand curve. Reading the velocity factor from the graph gives about 0.03 for that coil. It's a piece of cake if you understand the physics involved. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223649 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 02:08:00 GMT w8ji@akorn.net wrote: > I can't believe you are still trying to get Cecil to actually read the > paper he is misquoting. Unfortunately for your lumped circuit religion, I am not misquoting anything. Page 4 contains a test to see if a coil falls within the limitations of the velocity factor equation. A 75m bugcatcher coil is less than half the upper limit. Here's the calculation: 5*N*D^2/lamda < 1 N is turns per unit length and D is the diameter. 5*48*0.5^2/246 = 0.24 < 1 Therefore, the graph in Fig. 1 is valid for 75m bugcatcher coils and the velocity factor is around 0.02. The VF equation yields the same value as the graph. The lumped circuit model is known to fail. Dr. Corum knows where it fails. Most people on this newsgroup don't know. And when it does fail, the distributed network model gives valid results. Why would you ever choose a model known to fail without knowing where it fails when you could be using a model known to be valid? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223650 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:53:09 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Antennas (?) on military planes Message-ID: <4446f796$0$1015$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> I have long wondered about the thing that looks like an antenna above the pilot's seat on the plexiglass of fighter planes. I was going to say what type of antenna structure it might be, but I know that I don't have a clue. Anyone here know that is allowed to talk about it? tom K0TAR Article: 223651 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Dr. Anton T. Squeegee Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:07:13 -0700 Message-ID: References: In article , my.em@il.dont.work (known to some as Skirt Chaser) scribed... Oh, look, nothing left. Permit me to be the first to offer a resounding... *PLONK!* -- Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute (Known to some as Bruce Lane, KC7GR) http://www.bluefeathertech.com -- kyrrin a/t bluefeathertech d-o=t calm "Salvadore Dali's computer has surreal ports..." Article: 223652 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Antennas (?) on military planes From: Allan Butler Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:34:38 -0500 Message-ID: <1145503818_3@64triton.net> References: <4446f796$0$1015$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> It could be one of two things that come to mind right now. The first thing is a set of bus wires to feed the internal heating grid for de-icing the canopy. The other wires that do the actual heating would be too small to see. The second thing that I can think of is the possible method that is used to get the canopy out of the way for an ejection. I believe, and could be wrong, that some of the canopies do not actually slide to the back to allow ejection but the canopy itself is shattered by an internal linear explosive that allows the crew to leave the plane without contacting the canopy. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 223653 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <4446f796$0$1015$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Subject: Re: Antennas (?) on military planes Message-ID: <9UD1g.769$QP4.536@fed1read12> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:13:55 -0700 "Tom Ring" wrote in message news:4446f796$0$1015$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net... > > I have long wondered about the thing that looks like an antenna above > the pilot's seat on the plexiglass of fighter planes. > > I was going to say what type of antenna structure it might be, but I > know that I don't have a clue. > > Anyone here know that is allowed to talk about it? > > tom > K0TAR I have a cousin who is a former AF pilot (but he flew transports & helos ... no fighters). He is traveling now and I will see him on Friday. He may know. Article: 223654 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: Subject: Re: Antenna Sharing for Marine - Weather Fax/NavTex and SSB-DSC Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:11:55 -0700 "Wet-n-Wild Bill" wrote in message news:YYKdnZRQSPDGMN7ZRVn-jw@wavecable.com... > forgot to mention: the freq of theWeather Fax is the same as the SSB 2-25 > MHZ > > Bill > > > "Wet-n-Wild Bill" wrote in message > news:oYOdnZ3Y1M8qMd7ZRVn-jw@wavecable.com... > >I have an ICOM M-802 SSB and a Furuno FAX-30 (Weather Fax Reciever) onboard > >my boat. The ICOM M-802 has a dedicated receive port for DSC Receive. Can > >I share the FAX-30 Antenna with the DSC receive port of the SSB? if so what > >coupler should i use? (The SSB Xmit/Rec antenna is 3meters away) > > > > Bill > > > > http://www.furuno.com/Furuno/Doc/0/AGMACVGDT9H4DF39I5840AIHA8/FAX30%20Operat or%27s%20manual%20d1%201.22.2003.pdf They talk about a coupler in Section 7, but are not specific. As I dislike t-connectors on principle, I would use a 50-ohm power divider. They correspond to the action of a TV cable splitter but an actual TV cable splitter would not perform well at HF and below You can build your own in a metal project box, using a Y configuration with a 25-ohm carbon resistor in each leg to maintain some semblance of impedance matching. Maybe you can find an old TV cable splitter that you can gut for the purpose. For receive-only, the antenna length is not critical. I recall Navtex specifies a whip antenna of several meters; Navtex is on two freqs near 500 KHz, so it's not far from the AM broadcast band. Hm-m-m ... What does a car radio antenna look like??? Good luck. Article: 223655 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Lee Smith" References: <4446f796$0$1015$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <9UD1g.769$QP4.536@fed1read12> Subject: Re: Antennas (?) on military planes Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 00:19:17 -0500 Tom: Unless I miss my bet, it seems you are referring to what looks like wire embedded in the top of the canopy, but is really small diameter detonation cord (det cord) and it is used as one of the first events in an ejection sequence. In the type I am describing, the transparent canopy is shattered by the explosive in the det cord, the slipstream carries away all the small bits of plexiglass and the ejection seat containing the pilot follows a few microseconds later. In some types, the whole canopy is blown clear of the aircraft before the seat goes. An example of this can be seen in the picture of the ASAF Thunderbirds F-16 ejection at http://www.ejectionsite.com/ a search on ejection seats might make for some interesting reading. Hopefully, I'm not leading you on a wild goose chase. Regards, Lee Article: 223656 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Fred Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 06:54:04 GMT On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:54:39 GMT, Skirt Chaser wrote: > >ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of >the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when >I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of >queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. The ARRL >wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy >family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud >organization, and it turned liberal. > >Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of >the Democratic party, and always in your face. It's not even safe to take >your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree >with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking >his ass just ain't right. The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened >to our radio groups. > >SC I know a gay couple and they are not in your face. In fact... oddly enough they don't support gay marriage or all the other liberal nonsense. They are quite conservative. They also don't claim they have some bullshit scientific right to do what they do. It is only the retarded flakes like HIV-Markytard that ruin it for the rest of them. Article: 223657 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Fred Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 06:54:38 GMT On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:04:44 -0400, Dave wrote: >Well, your refusing to properly identify yourself with a real name, ISP >account, and Radio License casts doubt on the credibility of your post. > >I did not know that the Democratic Party had a 'MILITARY WING'. Who is >the commanding officer? What is the source of that officer's legal >commission? [PS: I am Republican] > >Finally, your prejudices are showing!!! Cindy Sheman? Article: 223658 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Tony Roma Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Message-ID: <22se42d1ndkmbrj99p6675l6k2t16rplk4@4ax.com> References: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:29:44 GMT On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:54:39 GMT, Skirt Chaser wrote: > >I know you're all going to disagree >with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking >his ass just ain't right. You said a mouthful. Oh and I agree with you. It just aint natural! I mean imagine a guy sucking on my cock. what am I supposed to do, come in his mouth??? Very disturbing! Article: 223659 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: chuck Subject: Re: Antenna Sharing for Marine - Weather Fax/NavTex and SSB-DSC References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 12:22:48 GMT Sal M. Onella wrote: > "Wet-n-Wild Bill" wrote in message > news:YYKdnZRQSPDGMN7ZRVn-jw@wavecable.com... > >>forgot to mention: the freq of theWeather Fax is the same as the SSB 2-25 >>MHZ >> >>Bill >> >> >>"Wet-n-Wild Bill" wrote in message >>news:oYOdnZ3Y1M8qMd7ZRVn-jw@wavecable.com... >> >>>I have an ICOM M-802 SSB and a Furuno FAX-30 (Weather Fax Reciever) > > onboard > >>>my boat. The ICOM M-802 has a dedicated receive port for DSC Receive. > > Can > >>>I share the FAX-30 Antenna with the DSC receive port of the SSB? if so > > what > >>>coupler should i use? (The SSB Xmit/Rec antenna is 3meters away) >>> >>>Bill >>> >> >> > > http://www.furuno.com/Furuno/Doc/0/AGMACVGDT9H4DF39I5840AIHA8/FAX30%20Operat > or%27s%20manual%20d1%201.22.2003.pdf > > They talk about a coupler in Section 7, but are not specific. As I dislike > t-connectors on principle, I would use a 50-ohm power divider. They > correspond to the action of a TV cable splitter but an actual TV cable > splitter would not perform well at HF and below You can build your own in a > metal project box, using a Y configuration with a 25-ohm carbon resistor in > each leg to maintain some semblance of impedance matching. Maybe you can > find an old TV cable splitter that you can gut for the purpose. For > receive-only, the antenna length is not critical. I recall Navtex specifies > a whip antenna of several meters; Navtex is on two freqs near 500 KHz, so > it's not far from the AM broadcast band. Hm-m-m ... What does a car radio > antenna look like??? > > Good luck. > > Impedance matching shouldn't be an issue for the OP since he is using an active antenna. A short whip at at 500 kHz presents a terrible mismatch to a "50 ohm" receiver input so the active antenna matches impedance, usually with an FET source follower, and may provide gain as well. The more interesting question is how the active antenna "works" over the entire HF range without retuning! The potential problem with a tee is that it provides no isolation between the two receivers. But I doubt that would be a problem. All it takes is a couple of dollars and a few minutes to find out. Chuck Article: 223660 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 07:26:14 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: fun with loading References: <403942te0vdkte65fo3rsgcuga3t2pqtki@4ax.com> <931a421onp5m58fsnpe16kll01qv46t5d2@4ax.com> <44457d74$0$76686$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44462b9c$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44469814$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <44477de6$0$1014$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Dave wrote: >> What!!?? That would be a waste of beer. Well, unless it was Budweiser. >> >> tom >> K0TAR > > > What is the bulk conductivity of 'Bud'? How does the bulk conductivity > differ from other Beers? [I am a non drinker] > Well, you can't waste Bud. For those that appreciate real beers and lagers, Budweiser is universally shunned. One batch at the factory, add preservatives, flavor enhancers, artificial flavorings, and voila! You have 10 different kinds of Bud. Or so I've heard. ;) I'm not sure about the conductivity. It might be worth buying a single to test. tom K0TAR Article: 223661 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mike Lee Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. References: Message-ID: <7tM1g.130837$zI1.16870@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:59:31 GMT Skirt Chaser wrote: > ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of > the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when > I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of > queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. The ARRL > wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy > family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud > organization, and it turned liberal. > > Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of > the Democratic party, and always in your face. It's not even safe to take > your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree > with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking > his ass just ain't right. The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened > to our radio groups. > > SC > @skirt chaserBloody well grow up, you moron. Mike. Article: 223662 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Butch Magee Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:18:58 -0500 Message-ID: <124f62lqr9saac2@corp.supernews.com> References: Skirt Chaser wrote: > ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of > the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when > I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of > queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. The ARRL > wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy > family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud > organization, and it turned liberal. > > Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of > the Democratic party, and always in your face. It's not even safe to take > your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree > with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking > his ass just ain't right. The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened > to our radio groups. > > SC > This is way off topic for this site "Skirt", I bet some voice is telling you to post this stuff to hide your "homo" side. Well "Skirt", if you really want to hide your sexuality, just keep your mouth shut! Know whut I mean? KF5DE Article: 223663 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. From: Bert Hyman References: <124f62lqr9saac2@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: 20 Apr 2006 14:25:54 GMT lynyrd@cableone.net (Butch Magee) wrote in news:124f62lqr9saac2@corp.supernews.com: > This is way off topic for this site "Skirt", What "site" would that be? And, thanks for reposting his message in its entirety. -- Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com Article: 223664 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bill Mutch Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:55:24 -0400 Message-ID: References: FDR wrote: > "Skirt Chaser" wrote in message > news:jsx1g.131$Vn.21@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net... > >>ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of >>the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when >>I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of >>queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. The ARRL >>wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy >>family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud >>organization, and it turned liberal. >> >>Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of >>the Democratic party, and always in your face. It's not even safe to take >>your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree >>with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking >>his ass just ain't right. The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened >>to our radio groups. >> >>SC >> > > > Get a life. > > My responce exactly ! Article: 223665 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:01:57 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > w8ji@akorn.net wrote: > >> I can't believe you are still trying to get Cecil to actually read the >> paper he is misquoting. > > > Unfortunately for your lumped circuit religion, I am not > misquoting anything. Page 4 contains a test to see if a > coil falls within the limitations of the velocity factor > equation. A 75m bugcatcher coil is less than half the > upper limit. > > Here's the calculation: 5*N*D^2/lamda < 1 > > N is turns per unit length and D is the diameter. Cecil, Selective quoting can have the same effect as misquoting. If one goes back a few words in the same long sentence it can be observed that the more complete limitation is stated as: "... an approximation for M has been determined by Kandoian and Sichak which is *appropriate for quarter-wave resonance* and is valid for helices with 5*N*D^2/lambda < 1 ..." [emphasis was in the original] You apparently choose to accept the second half of the condition while ignoring the first half. In most cases the "AND" construction means both parts apply. Do you really think the Vf is dependent only on the turn density and not the number of turns? Corum never says such a thing, since the number of turns is dictated by the resonance requirement. How far down does your magic extend? To half the turns needed for resonance? To one turn? To less than one turn? Where is the transition in Vf from the ~1 for zero turns to ~0.02 for a resonant coil? For anyone still reading who is bored (everyone) or confused by this topic (perhaps) the importance to the subject at hand is that Cecil has mis-used this reference paper to "prove" that the 75 meter loading coil replaces approximately 45 degrees of the original unloaded quarter wave antenna. After his long struggle to prove his point with modeling, and achieving only 10 degrees of phase replacement, he abandoned that approach for this latest futile attempt. The "missing" portion of the test antenna is about 75 degrees, so 45 degrees would barely squeak in under the 59% precision rule. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223666 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Bill Turner" Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. References: Message-ID: <4447a18e_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> Date: 20 Apr 2006 09:58:22 -0500 ORIGINAL MESSAGE: Skirt Chaser wrote: > ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands > of the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** I find it fascinating to see all the personal attacks against Skirt Chaser, but not one poster says his conclusions are wrong. Reminds me of some years ago when Dan Quayle attacked Murphy Brown for portraying a decadent lifestyle. He got crap from all over the spectrum, but not one attacker said his conclusions were wrong either. Food for thought. Bill, W6WRT Article: 223667 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Phil Wheeler Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. References: <4447a18e_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:05:03 GMT A. His conclusion are wrong. B. Dan Quayle was also wrong. Happy? 73, Phil w7ox Bill Turner wrote: > ORIGINAL MESSAGE: > > Skirt Chaser wrote: > > >>ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands >>of the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). > > > > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > I find it fascinating to see all the personal attacks against Skirt > Chaser, but not one poster says his conclusions are wrong. > > Reminds me of some years ago when Dan Quayle attacked Murphy Brown for > portraying a decadent lifestyle. He got crap from all over the > spectrum, but not one attacker said his conclusions were wrong either. > > Food for thought. > > Bill, W6WRT Article: 223668 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cecil Moore" References: <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:53:54 GMT "Gene Fuller" wrote: > Selective quoting can have the same effect as misquoting. If one goes > back a few words in the same long sentence it can be observed that the > more complete limitation is stated as: > > "... an approximation for M has been determined by Kandoian and Sichak > which is *appropriate for quarter-wave resonance* and is valid for > helices with 5*N*D^2/lambda < 1 ..." I have already explained that to you twice now, Gene. This is the third time so listen up. They were looking for a formula "appropriate for quarter-wave resonance" and they found one that works for lengths other than a quarter-wavelength. If it worked *only* for quarter-wave resonance, they would have said so. You are confusing a mutually inclusive statement with a mutually exclusive statement. > Do you really think the Vf is dependent only on the turn density and not > the number of turns? Corum never says such a thing, ... Already asked and answered. He certainly does imply such a thing in Fig. 1. The VF is dependent only on the turn density and the diameter of the coil. The number of turns affects the length of the coil. The length of the coil is NOT a parameter in the graphic nor does it appear in the equation. Does a 1/4WL transmission line have a different VF when it is increased to 1/2WL? > Where is the transition in Vf from the ~1 for zero > turns to ~0.02 for a resonant coil? Already asked and answered. If you cannot read Fig 1, then you have a problem. The VF in the graphic goes from 0.0 to 1.0. > After his long struggle to prove his point with modeling, and > achieving only 10 degrees of phase replacement, he abandoned that > approach for this latest futile attempt. The voltage was 67 degrees out of phase with the current so we weren't dealing with traveling waves. That's why I abandoned it - because I was on the verge of making the same mistake that W7EL and W8JI already made - trusting measurements in the presence of standing waves. > The "missing" portion of the > test antenna is about 75 degrees, so 45 degrees would barely squeak in > under the 59% precision rule. Once again, there is no "missing" portion of an antenna. The delay through the loading coil is what it is. There is absolutely no requirement that it be a certain number of degrees. What is required is that (Vfor+Vref)/(Ifor+Iref) be purely resistive at the feedpoint. There is absolutely no requirement for the antenna to be 90 degrees long. That is just another one of your many strawmen. I am trying to zero in on the technical facts. What are you trying to do? -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP Article: 223669 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cecil Moore" References: <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:09:28 GMT "Gene Fuller" wrote in message: > Where is the transition in Vf from the ~1 for zero > turns to ~0.02 for a resonant coil? Take the VF=0.02 resonant coil and divide it into two equal coils. Do you really expect the two coils to have VFs of 1.0 while their end-to-end combination results in a VF of 0.02? Please quote the laws of physics that allows such to happen. -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP Article: 223670 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:29:49 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > "Gene Fuller" wrote: > >>Do you really think the Vf is dependent only on the turn density and not >>the number of turns? Corum never says such a thing, ... > > > Already asked and answered. He certainly does imply such a thing in Fig. 1. > The VF is dependent only on the turn density and the diameter of the coil. > The number of turns affects the length of the coil. The length of the coil > is NOT a parameter in the graphic nor does it appear in the equation. > > Does a 1/4WL transmission line have a different VF when it is increased > to 1/2WL? > > >>Where is the transition in Vf from the ~1 for zero >>turns to ~0.02 for a resonant coil? > > > Already asked and answered. If you cannot read Fig 1, then you have > a problem. The VF in the graphic goes from 0.0 to 1.0. Cecil, You just contradicted yourself. Yes, indeed, Fig.1 shows Vf going from 0.0 to 1.0. But as you pointed out, there is no dependency on the number of turns anywhere in the chart axes or in the plotted data. It would be useful if you looked at the caption on that figure to attempt to understand what is actually being plotted. The vertical scale is Vf and the horizontal scale is D/lambda. The parameter attached to each curve is "N", which is defined as the turns per wavelength. We would expect a very short coil to look like a straight wire, with a Vf near 1.0. How does the Vf transition to 0.02 for a resonant coil occur? That transition is most certainly NOT shown in Fig. 1. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223671 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:39:24 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > "Gene Fuller" wrote in message: > >>Where is the transition in Vf from the ~1 for zero >>turns to ~0.02 for a resonant coil? > > > Take the VF=0.02 resonant coil and divide it into two equal > coils. Do you really expect the two coils to have VFs of 1.0 > while their end-to-end combination results in a VF of > 0.02? Please quote the laws of physics that allows such > to happen. > -- > 73, Cecil, W5DXP > > Cecil, What is the mystery? Have you never seen a response curve for a resonant condition? It is not exactly linear. You are the expert on Vf. You assert without proof that a half-length coil has the same Vf as the full-length resonant coil. OK, even if I accepted that supposition, what happens at a quarter-length or at a tenth-length? I am simply asking how the function changes between the "known" limits of 1.0 and <0.02. You have repeatedly ducked any sort of answer. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223672 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cecil Moore" References: <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch Message-ID: <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:45:39 GMT "Gene Fuller" wrote: > We would expect a very short coil to look like a straight wire, ... There you go again. We are not talking about very short coils. We are talking about big honking 75m bugcatcher coils. We are talking about taking a 1/4WL self-resonant coil and cutting it into two equal sized coils. The VF is not likely to change by more than 10%. > How does the Vf transition to 0.02 for a resonant coil > occur? That transition is most certainly NOT shown in Fig. 1. Of course it is shown. Draw a vertical line at 10^-3. The 10k turns per lamda coil has a VF of 0.07. The 50 turns per lamda has a VF of 0.86. Exactly the same principle applies to your question. -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP Article: 223673 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <4kff42pqcligc4kdjgqimpjo0f671leoan@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:46:01 GMT Richard Clark wrote: > On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:01:57 GMT, Gene Fuller > wrote: > >>For anyone still reading who is bored > > > Hi Gene, > > To ask about those still reading, there is one very good reason why > the thread persists: topic drift as your post has just raised the > opportunity to: > 1. argue the original quotation by shifting authors; > 2. argue the subquotation in terms of ANDing where his sum of the > parts never equal the whole; > 3. respond to "do you think the Vf" in terms that diverge from your > yes/no; > 4. argue no one uses a one turn coil load for 160M (this is all > getting too easy to dissemble); > 5. discuss transitions when you obviously don't believe they exist > (more arguments over inconsequentials); > 6. counter-claim old claims (aka correcting what he would call your > bad context); > 7. argue models (he has already questioned EZNEC's capacity in some > form - you will only tread that old ground once again); > 8. fight over "missing" portions of the antenna - Cecil can prove he > never "exactly" said it did!; > 9. ... and more through finer parsing than found here (and it is > guaranteed to be found, that has been amply demonstrated when you feed > the troll). > > Those exchanges are like watching someone chase the clown in a > revolving door with discarded lines of attack flying out like grass > clippings from a lawn mower. > > Cecil has never been able to hold his ground to one point when I've > drilled down instead of following the outrageous. No one want to > abandon the only true content, the comedy; but, really, the knots of > argument are far more deterministic than the technical issue > supposedly being discussed. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Richard, I gave up on this thread a couple of weeks ago, largely because it had drifted. However, it came right back to the original topic when the velocity-factor-based 45 degree replacement item came up. Cecil and his friends now deny they ever said anything about coils replacing the "degrees" of missing wire, but they keep coming back to the same position again and again. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223674 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John Ferrell Subject: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:51:02 GMT Showing my ignorance (or perhaps deteriorating intellect?) again: I am attempting to compare the gain of a full size (1/4 wave) vertical to various shorter verticals at 160 meters. I am looking at the gain in dbi on the 2D plot. I see 1.39 dbi for the full 1/4 wave and I see 1.52 dbi for the 28 foot version. I don't believe the shorter antenna has less gain. Where am I going wrong? de W8CCW John Ferrell W8CCW Article: 223675 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cecil Moore" References: <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:53:32 GMT "Gene Fuller" wrote: > I am simply asking how the function changes between the > "known" limits of 1.0 and <0.02. You have repeatedly ducked any sort of > answer. On the contrary, I just posted the answer for the third time. The Y-axis answers your question. Hold the diameter/lamda ratio constant and vary the turns/lamda to answer your question. Do I have to plot zero turns/lamda for you? -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP Article: 223676 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cecil Moore" References: Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:23:34 GMT "John Ferrell" wrote: > > I am attempting to compare the gain of a full size (1/4 wave) vertical > to various shorter verticals at 160 meters. > > I am looking at the gain in dbi on the 2D plot. I see 1.39 dbi for the > full 1/4 wave and I see 1.52 dbi for the 28 foot version. > > I don't believe the shorter antenna has less gain. Where am I going > wrong? Take a look at the phase angle between the feedpoint voltage and the feedpoint current for the 28 foot version and try to figure out an efficient matching network. That phase angle is ~89.95 degrees. The feedpoint voltage is 1400 volts for only 1.2 watts input. The feedpoint impedance is about 1.2-j1400 ohms. Try using the helix feature to install a loading coil in the center of the 28 foot antenna. The gain will drop as expected but the feedpoint impedance will be easier to match. -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP Article: 223677 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John Ferrell Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:28:33 GMT Oops! Thanks for the quick response! That should have read "I can't believe the shorter antenna has MORE gain". I am not normally troubled by such small differences in db's but for that small of a gain difference and that large of a physical difference (104 feet!) I am certain I have missed more than a decimal point. The tone of the message was intended as apologetic. I really hate to bring dumb questions here to the experts but other than my books and the Internet I have no where else to go with them. I also hate to take the dumb questions to Roy directly for fear I will wear out my welcome with him. On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:59:22 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:51:02 GMT, John Ferrell > wrote: > >>I am looking at the gain in dbi on the 2D plot. I see 1.39 dbi for the >>full 1/4 wave and I see 1.52 dbi for the 28 foot version. >> >>I don't believe the shorter antenna has less gain. Where am I going >>wrong? > >Hi John, > >Well, at a minumum, your statements conflict from one paragraph to the >next. That is one indication of something wrong even before we >consider the numbers. > >Unravelling that knot, and taking only the first paragraph, yes that >looks wrong (in comparison) too. On the third hand, even if it were >true 0.13dB is something you will never measure accurately in your >lifetime. Even more, you would never perceive it. > >Your question should be more of the nature, "how did I misread the >results?" to which we could respond to the tenor of your opening >statement: >>Showing my ignorance (or perhaps deteriorating intellect?) again > >Perhaps if you were to explain how you got here instead (the problem) >of what you found (the symptom). > >73's >Richard Clark, KB7QHC John Ferrell W8CCW Article: 223678 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cecil Moore" References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:46:09 GMT "Richard Clark" wrote: > w5dxp wrote: > >Of course it is shown. Draw a vertical line at 10^-3. > >The 10k turns per lamda coil > That is for coil A > >has a VF of 0.07. > > >The 50 turns per lamda > That is for coil B > >has a VF of 0.86. > Well, in fact it does not (and nothing shown on the graph along that > ordinal line does). What happened should be obvious. I correctly used the 10^-3 vertical line for the first one and accidentally used the 0.01 vertical line for the second one. The first observation is OK. The second should be changed to 500 turns per lamda with a VF of 0.96. The same principle still applies. As the turns/lamda increases, the VF decreases while keeping the diameter and frequency the same. -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP Article: 223679 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Michael Coslo Subject: Re: fun with loading Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:01:33 -0400 Message-ID: References: <403942te0vdkte65fo3rsgcuga3t2pqtki@4ax.com> <931a421onp5m58fsnpe16kll01qv46t5d2@4ax.com> <44457d74$0$76686$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44462b9c$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44469814$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: > Tom Donaly wrote: > >>> I would prefer a radiator made from half inch PVC filled with a >>> dilute sodium chloride solution. If you put a valve at the bottom, >>> it's a snap to adjust resonance. >>> >>> tom >>> K0TAR >> >> >> Have you tried beer? >> 73, >> Tom Donaly, KA6RUH > > What!!?? That would be a waste of beer. Well, unless it was Budweiser. Is there a beer called Budweiser now? Hopefully one to replace that old PeeWaa that was sold under the same name! ;^) darn stuff could give me a headache and make me queasy after one can..... ick. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Article: 223680 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John Ferrell Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:06:17 GMT I don't find the Helix feature in my copy of EZNEC+ V4. I believe I can get the same results by inserting an appropriate load. It will just be a little more cumbersome. I was not aware that the feeding of the radiator was affected by the driving source. My "lab models" require a base inductance to get the radiator into a range I can feed. I have not been including that in the models. I added a base inductor of 100uh(r=3) and got the results you predicted. The 28 foot radiator is now showing -3.75 dbi gain! Lesson learned! The matter of the phase angle and the feed point voltage is currently over my head, I will study it further. I am using the TLW program from the Antenna Handbook to determine an appropriate match. I have not tried to verify those calculations with a lab project YET! Once again, thank you for the assistance. I was getting pretty frustrated... de W8CCW John On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:23:34 GMT, "Cecil Moore" wrote: > >Take a look at the phase angle between the feedpoint voltage >and the feedpoint current for the 28 foot version and try to >figure out an efficient matching network. That phase angle >is ~89.95 degrees. The feedpoint voltage is 1400 volts for >only 1.2 watts input. The feedpoint impedance is about >1.2-j1400 ohms. > >Try using the helix feature to install a loading coil in the center >of the 28 foot antenna. The gain will drop as expected but the >feedpoint impedance will be easier to match. John Ferrell W8CCW Article: 223681 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cecil Moore" References: Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:22:17 GMT "John Ferrell" wrote: > I don't find the Helix feature in my copy of EZNEC+ V4. > I believe I can get the same results by inserting an appropriate load. > It will just be a little more cumbersome. The helix feature is found under the Wires window under the create menu. But it is somewhat complicated. A lumped inductance load will get you started. The problem with feeding an impedance of 1.2-j1400 ohms is getting power into the antenna without dissipating most of it in the matching network. -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP Article: 223682 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cecil Moore" References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:56:57 GMT "Richard Clark" wrote: > Asked: At one length, one coil exhibits Vf = 0.02, > reduce the coil length, what length for the SAME coil would that be > to render Vf = 0.2 for instance? > 3. we are not changing pitch/lambda So what is the pitch for one turn? -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP Article: 223683 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:02:27 -0700 Message-ID: <124fq6khvpot526@corp.supernews.com> References: If there's no conductor loss in a model, and no ground loss from a ground system (which can be simulated with a MININEC type ground), the gain of an infinitesimally short vertical should be about 0.45 dB less than for a quarter wave vertical. The gains for intermediate lengths should fall between. The gain difference is caused by the change in current distribution as the antenna length changes, which in turn causes a slight change in the pattern shape. If you're seeing a report of higher gain from the shorter antenna, something's wrong. Do an Average Gain test to make sure there are no numerical problems, and also check the segmentation to make sure it's reasonable. And, of course, make sure that the length is the only difference between the models. Roy Lewallen, W7EL John Ferrell wrote: > Showing my ignorance (or perhaps deteriorating intellect?) again: > > I am attempting to compare the gain of a full size (1/4 wave) vertical > to various shorter verticals at 160 meters. > > I am looking at the gain in dbi on the 2D plot. I see 1.39 dbi for the > full 1/4 wave and I see 1.52 dbi for the 28 foot version. > > I don't believe the shorter antenna has less gain. Where am I going > wrong? > de W8CCW > John Ferrell W8CCW Article: 223684 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:12:20 -0700 Message-ID: <124fqp52got4bf5@corp.supernews.com> References: John Ferrell wrote: > I don't find the Helix feature in my copy of EZNEC+ V4. You'll find it in the EZNEC manual index under "Helix Creation". (There's lots of other good information in the manual, too.) > I believe I can get the same results by inserting an appropriate load. > It will just be a little more cumbersome. It'll be less cumbersome, but you probably won't get the same results. The amount difference will depend on the geometry of the helix. However, a lumped load is adequate to illustrate the phenomena you're investigating. > I was not aware that the feeding of the radiator was affected by the > driving source. My "lab models" require a base inductance to get the > radiator into a range I can feed. I have not been including that in > the models. > > I added a base inductor of 100uh(r=3) and got the results you > predicted. The 28 foot radiator is now showing -3.75 dbi gain! > Lesson learned! The loss is due solely to the inductor's resistance -- you'll get the same result by replacing the inductor with a 3 ohm resistor. The amount of gain reduction due to the inductor will get worse and worse as the antenna gets shorter and shorter, for two reasons. The first is that the antenna's radiation resistance drops as it gets shorter, so the inductor loss becomes a greater fraction of the total feedpoint resistance. The second is that you need a larger inductor for a shorter antenna and, assuming a constant Q, that means more inductor resistance. > . . . Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 223685 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cecil Moore" References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:53:08 GMT "Richard Clark" wrote: > Pitch for any coil remains the same irrespective of its > length. Frequency does not change, diameter does not change; it then > follows that Vf does not change when a coil is shortened. Gee, I wish I had said that. Now you can argue with Gene. :-) -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP Article: 223686 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cecil Moore" References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <25sf42tf6bveh3b5up6r65fes682m4fu9u@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch Message-ID: <9AS1g.12875$4L1.9069@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:56:37 GMT "Richard Clark" wrote: > Turning aside what is obvious (that having been answered separately); > we can observe that one coil of a fixed pitch (it seems to bear > repeating for Cecil) does not exhibit a Vf increase from 0.02 to 0.2 > by cutting the coil down to one turn. Cecil needs to accomplish what > is doable instead of turning to radical solutions that fail early. This is really strange. You are agreeing with what I have been saying so your argument is with Gene, not me. What I have said is that as the pitch is decreased the VF increases and vice versa. -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP Article: 223687 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Telamon Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. References: <1145556183.011381.171380@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:06:12 GMT In article , LARC wrote: > On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:21:19 GMT, Telamon wrote: > > In article <1145556183.011381.171380@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, > > "Morris" wrote: > > > > > Skirt Chaser, > > > > < Snip > > > > > Please drop rec.radio.shortwave from this thread. > > Are you afraid someone will find out? It's an off topic flame thread. Please drop rec.radio.shortwave from this thread. Thanks. -- Telamon Ventura, California Article: 223688 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. References: Message-ID: <2LS1g.70214$Jd.36887@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:08:14 GMT Fred wrote: > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:54:39 GMT, Skirt Chaser > wrote: > > >>ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of >>the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when >>I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of >>queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. The ARRL >>wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy >>family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud >>organization, and it turned liberal. >> >>Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of >>the Democratic party, and always in your face. It's not even safe to take >>your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree >>with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking >>his ass just ain't right. The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened >>to our radio groups. >> >>SC > > > I know a gay couple and they are not in your face. In fact... oddly > enough they don't support gay marriage or all the other liberal > nonsense. They are quite conservative. They also don't claim they have > some bullshit scientific right to do what they do. It is only the > retarded flakes like HIV-Markytard that ruin it for the rest of them. At least being homosexual keeps them away from the farm animals. Do y'all have a branch of the Log Cabin Club out there, Fred? 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 223689 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:12:41 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Antennas (?) on military planes References: <4446f796$0$1015$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <4447f94a$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: > > I have long wondered about the thing that looks like an antenna above > the pilot's seat on the plexiglass of fighter planes. > > I was going to say what type of antenna structure it might be, but I > know that I don't have a clue. > > Anyone here know that is allowed to talk about it? > > tom > K0TAR I found an example. This is not a picture of the real plane, but is a drawing of an F35 JSF canopy. http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_on_2_5_2004_08_13_46/F35C08.jpg43721b76-6b00-45b6-bc84-7a346dd3cd43Large.jpg tom K0TAR Article: 223690 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. From: Steveo Message-ID: <20060420172451.124$ak@newsreader.com> References: <1145541385.985202.176180@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> Date: 20 Apr 2006 21:11:20 GMT "AC7PN" wrote: > Watching two men holding hands and kissing gives me the creeps less > than your intolerant letter. What two men do out of my sight doesn't > bother me at all. Skirt Chaser should do us all a favor and practice > his intollerance in the privacy of his own home. > > Bob AC7PN > Skirt Chaser also posts as 'Slow Code' with his sock puppet. Article: 223691 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dr.Death" Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:28:14 -0500 Message-ID: <124fv7ddu44pca6@corp.supernews.com> References: "Skirt Chaser" wrote in message news:jsx1g.131$Vn.21@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net... > > ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of > the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when > I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of > queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. No doubt it was n8wwm and kb9rqz, but what does this have to do with rec.radio.cb? Quit crossposting. >The ARRL > wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy > family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud > organization, and it turned liberal. > So quit supporting the ARRL and encourage others to do the same. > Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of > the Democratic party, and always in your face. So you are claiming the majority of hams are gay? I'm sure there are many that would disagree with your obvious troll post. >It's not even safe to take > your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree > with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking > his ass just ain't right. I agree, and go a step further by saying that it is not right for you to be this graphic about it. It makes me wonder what you sit around thinking of all day long. > The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened > to our radio groups. And you are promoting it with your crossposting of this graphic troll trash. Article: 223692 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dr.Death" Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:44:33 -0500 Message-ID: <124g05vo3ja5bdd@corp.supernews.com> References: <1145541385.985202.176180@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> <20060420172451.124$ak@newsreader.com> "Steveo" wrote in message news:20060420172451.124$ak@newsreader.com... > "AC7PN" wrote: >> Watching two men holding hands and kissing gives me the creeps less >> than your intolerant letter. What two men do out of my sight doesn't >> bother me at all. Skirt Chaser should do us all a favor and practice >> his intollerance in the privacy of his own home. >> >> Bob AC7PN >> > Skirt Chaser also posts as 'Slow Code' with his sock puppet. Did you notice they both end their posts with SC? Article: 223693 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Weiner Dog Subject: Skirt Chaser is right the ARRL is responsible for all the homosexual posts. Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:45:52 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1145521299.979215.199760@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> They are all fat middle aged guys that will have sex with anyone, even other guys. *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** Article: 223694 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. From: Steveo Message-ID: <20060420190239.920$24@newsreader.com> References: <4447a18e_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> Date: 20 Apr 2006 22:49:08 GMT "Bill Turner" wrote: > ORIGINAL MESSAGE: > > Skirt Chaser wrote: > > > ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands > > of the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > I find it fascinating to see all the personal attacks against Skirt > Chaser, but not one poster says his conclusions are wrong. > I say his bait is working. Article: 223695 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. From: Steveo Message-ID: <20060420190526.041$7U@newsreader.com> References: <1145549855.877794.85610@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Date: 20 Apr 2006 22:51:54 GMT "John S." wrote: >> Really, it's ok if you are. Just accept yourself as you are and > everything will be fine - eventually. > He can't get the taste of used cock out of his mouth. Article: 223696 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: fun with loading Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:06:57 -0700 Message-ID: <124g50j5dikc177@corp.supernews.com> References: <403942te0vdkte65fo3rsgcuga3t2pqtki@4ax.com> <931a421onp5m58fsnpe16kll01qv46t5d2@4ax.com> <44457d74$0$76686$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44462b9c$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44469814$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1145535494.518180.112020@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Dave wrote: >> > so why would a company like m2 go with linear loading over the much simpler > to build coil? and how in the world do you measure the Q of the loading > section when it is a large percentage of the size of the element? Does Q > even really mean anything in a system that is radiating? Since some of the > energy is being radiated along the length of the loading segment i would > expect it to look very lossy compared to a small coil. One of the many very handy things about superposition is that it allows us to separate the radiating and transmission line properties of a linear loading section, analyze them separately, and add the results(*). So the Q of the linear loading section can be determined from its transmission line properties without radiation being involved. This can then be directly compared to the Q of a non-radiating inductor. As Tom W8JI has pointed out, the comparison is often not very favorable to the linear loaded antenna. You'd have to ask M2 why they do what they do. I suspect it's because a lot of amateurs don't understand the loss mechanisms involved, so are under the mistaken impression that linear loading is less lossy than a good inductor. And very few amateurs are capable of making even crudely accurate gain measurements or even comparisons so the vast majority would never know which is better. Smart companies give the customers what they want. (*) This is done by separating the currents on the two conductors into two sets of currents, common mode -- which radiate -- and differential, which don't. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 223697 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:16:21 -0700 Message-ID: <124g5i6gm71mo0a@corp.supernews.com> References: <4447f979_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> Richard Fry wrote: > . . . > A classic 1/4-wave vertical monopole working against a very good radial > ground system such as used in AM broadcast should produce a peak gain of > around 5 dBi. The theoretical max for such a system with perfect > conditions is 5.15 dBi. > . . . Unfortunately, "perfect conditions" includes a perfectly conducting ground far beyond the radial field, a luxury neither we nor the broadcasters have. The maximum far field (sky wave) gain of a ground mounted quarter wave vertical over average ground, with a completely lossless ground system, is on the order of 0 dBi, and this occurs at roughly 25 degrees above the horizon (both depending on frequency as well as ground characteristics). See the EZNEC example file Vert1.ez as an illustration. Its MININEC type ground simulates a lossless ground system. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 223698 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Weiner Dog Subject: Re: blame the real preps that ARRL has enough sins on it card Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:17:56 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1145549855.877794.85610@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <20060420190526.041$7U@newsreader.com> <1145574534.524848.50660@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> On 20 Apr 2006 16:08:54 -0700, "an old freid to some a nightmare to steve" wrote: > >Steveo wrote: >> "John S." wrote: >> >> Really, it's ok if you are. Just accept yourself as you are and >> > everything will be fine - eventually. >> > >> He can't get the taste of used cock out of his mouth. > >you know Steveo if some is Homosexaul why would they need to get such a >taste out of their mouth? No, you would know better than anyone. Mr. beer enema *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** Article: 223699 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. From: Steveo Message-ID: <20060420192353.903$Dp@newsreader.com> References: <124fv7ddu44pca6@corp.supernews.com> Date: 20 Apr 2006 23:10:22 GMT "Dr.Death" wrote: >> And you are promoting it with your crossposting of this graphic troll > trash. > He's slow code. He fills his CB with WD 40 when it squeals. Article: 223700 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. From: Steveo Message-ID: <20060420192451.953$6c@newsreader.com> References: <1145541385.985202.176180@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> <20060420172451.124$ak@newsreader.com> <124g05vo3ja5bdd@corp.supernews.com> Date: 20 Apr 2006 23:11:20 GMT "Dr.Death" wrote: > "Steveo" wrote in message > > Skirt Chaser also posts as 'Slow Code' with his sock puppet. > > Did you notice they both end their posts with SC? > I noticed his bait stinks. Article: 223701 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dr.Death" Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:31:05 -0500 Message-ID: <124g6doa5bjp694@corp.supernews.com> References: <1145541385.985202.176180@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> <20060420172451.124$ak@newsreader.com> <124g05vo3ja5bdd@corp.supernews.com> <20060420192451.953$6c@newsreader.com> "Steveo" wrote in message news:20060420192451.953$6c@newsreader.com... > "Dr.Death" wrote: >> "Steveo" wrote in message >> > Skirt Chaser also posts as 'Slow Code' with his sock puppet. >> >> Did you notice they both end their posts with SC? >> > I noticed his bait stinks. I'm sure that's not all that stinks. Article: 223702 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dr.Death" Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:36:40 -0500 Message-ID: <124g6o7qa2oad2@corp.supernews.com> References: <124fv7ddu44pca6@corp.supernews.com> <20060420192353.903$Dp@newsreader.com> "Steveo" wrote in message news:20060420192353.903$Dp@newsreader.com... > "Dr.Death" wrote: >>> And you are promoting it with your crossposting of this graphic troll >> trash. >> > He's slow code. He fills his CB with WD 40 when it squeals. I'll bet that makes for a really quiet radio. Article: 223703 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. From: Steveo Message-ID: <20060420194523.711$I0@newsreader.com> References: <124fv7ddu44pca6@corp.supernews.com> <20060420192353.903$Dp@newsreader.com> <124g6o7qa2oad2@corp.supernews.com> Date: 20 Apr 2006 23:31:51 GMT "Dr.Death" wrote: > "Steveo" wrote in message > news:20060420192353.903$Dp@newsreader.com... > > "Dr.Death" wrote: > >>> And you are promoting it with your crossposting of this graphic troll > >> trash. > >> > > He's slow code. He fills his CB with WD 40 when it squeals. > story> > > I'll bet that makes for a really quiet radio. > I wouldn't try it unless I was really sick of the radio. :) Article: 223704 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dr.Death" Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:59:21 -0500 Message-ID: <124g82nmc33rsc0@corp.supernews.com> References: <124fv7ddu44pca6@corp.supernews.com> <20060420192353.903$Dp@newsreader.com> <124g6o7qa2oad2@corp.supernews.com> <20060420194523.711$I0@newsreader.com> "Steveo" wrote in message news:20060420194523.711$I0@newsreader.com... > "Dr.Death" wrote: >> "Steveo" wrote in message >> news:20060420192353.903$Dp@newsreader.com... >> > "Dr.Death" wrote: >> >>> And you are promoting it with your crossposting of this graphic troll >> >> trash. >> >> >> > He's slow code. He fills his CB with WD 40 when it squeals. > > story> >> >> I'll bet that makes for a really quiet radio. >> > I wouldn't try it unless I was really sick of the radio. :) I'd try it with someone else's radio. Maybe dogie will let me dunk his RCI. Article: 223705 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. From: Steveo Message-ID: <20060420201032.446$pI@newsreader.com> References: <124fv7ddu44pca6@corp.supernews.com> <20060420192353.903$Dp@newsreader.com> <124g6o7qa2oad2@corp.supernews.com> <20060420194523.711$I0@newsreader.com> <124g82nmc33rsc0@corp.supernews.com> Date: 20 Apr 2006 23:57:00 GMT "Dr.Death" wrote: > "Steveo" wrote in message > > I wouldn't try it unless I was really sick of the radio. :) > > I'd try it with someone else's radio. Maybe dogie will let me dunk his > RCI. > Good idea. I hope he posts pics again. lol Article: 223706 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John Ferrell Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Message-ID: References: <124fqp52got4bf5@corp.supernews.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:41:12 GMT Thank you, I get that! On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:12:20 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: > >The loss is due solely to the inductor's resistance -- you'll get the >same result by replacing the inductor with a 3 ohm resistor. The amount >of gain reduction due to the inductor will get worse and worse as the >antenna gets shorter and shorter, for two reasons. The first is that the >antenna's radiation resistance drops as it gets shorter, so the inductor >loss becomes a greater fraction of the total feedpoint resistance. The >second is that you need a larger inductor for a shorter antenna and, >assuming a constant Q, that means more inductor resistance. > >> . . . > >Roy Lewallen, W7EL John Ferrell W8CCW Article: 223707 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <25sf42tf6bveh3b5up6r65fes682m4fu9u@4ax.com> <9AS1g.12875$4L1.9069@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:48:54 GMT Richard Clark wrote: > You can't change the Vf by shortening a Vf = 0.02 coil, hmmm? > Remarkable shortening of your own theory there. You appear to have forgotten which side you were arguing but 1/2 of a turn should increase the VF over one turn. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223708 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John Ferrell Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Message-ID: <7uag42tkoo5863p3jd5447vpj6s9qvqq7o@4ax.com> References: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:49:08 GMT Found the helix. I will have to puzzle it out. I have a lot to digest. I am glad I asked the question. The answers turned on a lot lights. On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:22:17 GMT, "Cecil Moore" wrote: >"John Ferrell" wrote: >> I don't find the Helix feature in my copy of EZNEC+ V4. >> I believe I can get the same results by inserting an appropriate load. >> It will just be a little more cumbersome. > >The helix feature is found under the Wires window under the create >menu. But it is somewhat complicated. A lumped inductance load >will get you started. > >The problem with feeding an impedance of 1.2-j1400 ohms is >getting power into the antenna without dissipating most of it >in the matching network. John Ferrell W8CCW Article: 223709 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Yuri Blanarovich" References: <403942te0vdkte65fo3rsgcuga3t2pqtki@4ax.com> <931a421onp5m58fsnpe16kll01qv46t5d2@4ax.com> <44457d74$0$76686$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44462b9c$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44469814$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1145535494.518180.112020@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: fun with loading Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:18:31 -0400 "Dave" wrote in message news:o-KdnTn6F5fWYtrZ4p2dnA@crocker.com... > > wrote in message > news:1145535494.518180.112020@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... >> >> Dave wrote: >>> finally someone said something that makes sense in this thread... but no >>> one >>> has addressed my original question directly... but i guess that is par >>> for >>> the course in here when this group gets wound up, everyone goes off on >>> their >>> own little tangent and starts attacking each other. >> >> I tried to, but I see it did no good at all. >> >> I have a Force 12 80 and 40 meter linear loaded Yagi. >> >> The Q of the loading sections are terrible. They are thin aluminum wire >> of some sort of alloy that makes them hard. >> >> For the typical reactances produced by that loading system Q (reactance >> over ESR) is well in the sub-100 range. >> >> That's why you can take even a fairly poor loading coil, replace the >> linear loading, and have the same perfromance. Or you can make a good >> coil, like airdux or BW stock with number 12-14 wire, and make the >> antenna work better (IF you can keep it from falling apart in the >> wind). >> >> The results of linear loading depends on where the linear loading is >> installed and how it is constructed, but the general rule is if you >> take the very same size and material conductors and wind a coil it will >> work better. >> >> Now I suppose we can talk about UHF antennas, 1/2 inch copper tubing >> stubs, Cecil's imaginary reflected waves, quote Harrison's book >> collection.....but that's how the Force 12 linear loaded 80 and 40 >> meter antennas I have work. >> >> That's why they are laying in a pile with waddled out holes near the >> rivets and all that lossy linear loading wire wrapped up in a ball, >> waiting the be rebuilt into good antennas. >> >> 73 Tom >> > so why would a company like m2 go with linear loading over the much > simpler to build coil? and how in the world do you measure the Q of the > loading section when it is a large percentage of the size of the element? > Does Q even really mean anything in a system that is radiating? Since > some of the energy is being radiated along the length of the loading > segment i would expect it to look very lossy compared to a small coil. > > Dave, it boils down to the "problem" we were rehashing here - distribution of current along the antenna element. I tried to highlight that, but it gets lost in the "contributions" of the "same current worshippers". If you would model loaded element with 1. lumped inductance, 2. real solenoid and 3. loading stub - wires folded back onto element, you would see the variations of current distribution along the element and its effect on the design or optimization of multielement Yagi (cancellation in overlaps). The reason why antenna manufacturers used loading stubs to shorten the elements, was the idea that it would be less loss (it's "just" a wire) and would be more efficient than "some" lossy coil. You hardly find commercial loaded Yagi with coils as a loading element. They all used "nice, efficient" loading wires until W6 - I forgot the call, wasn't happy with performance of his 80m KLM loaded Yagi, replaced the "efficient" loading stubs with good quality coils and found that antenna performed much better. Better gain, better pattern, F/B (Richard can search for that "no good" article in CQ Mag. and query them). Few other hams did it too later and found the same. This is another proof of difference in performance when considering the proper loading and proper treatment of load in the standing wave (antenna) environment. The effect gets magnified in multielement arrays and has significant impact on the pattern and F/B. This is why we are arguing about proper treatment of the current distribution along the loaded element. How can it be the same in a coil, when it is demonstratively different in the loading stub (EZNEC shows THAT). When you have "wire" folded on itself three times and affecting currents (cancellation) along them - it gets worse than just current drop along the loading coil. The unbelievers would try to tell you that there can't be drop of current along the coil, much less along the loading stubs (it's just a piece of wire), but if you consider standing wave environment along the antenna element, then it all becomes clear and explains the behavior of various loading elements, current distribution in them and effect on the element and array. So replacing loading stubs with good quality coils WILL improve the performance of loaded Yagi, gain and especially give you better pattern and F/B. The same goes for Beta match at the center of element as used by i.e. Hy-Gain 402BA, replace it with few turns of copper tubing to get 50 ohm match to the coax. Now there is good fiberglass tubing available that can be used for strong insulators and forms for the loading coils. Standby for W8JI mumbo-jumbo, bla, bla, bla.... he has to be the last standing "trutz" man! You can verify and decide. 73 Yuri, K3BU Article: 223710 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:58:03 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. References: <4447a18e_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> Message-ID: Bill Turner wrote: > ORIGINAL MESSAGE: > > Skirt Chaser wrote: > > >>ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands >>of the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). > > > > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > I find it fascinating to see all the personal attacks against Skirt > Chaser, but not one poster says his conclusions are wrong. > > Reminds me of some years ago when Dan Quayle attacked Murphy Brown for > portraying a decadent lifestyle. He got crap from all over the > spectrum, but not one attacker said his conclusions were wrong either. > > Food for thought. > > Bill, W6WRT Bill, The conclusions ARE wrong. and EVERYONE said Quayle was wrong, particularly in his spelling. Live and let live. And let this newsgroup live in peace, if not harmony. Time to let this go. John AB8WH Article: 223711 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Yuri Blanarovich" References: <931a421onp5m58fsnpe16kll01qv46t5d2@4ax.com> <44457d74$0$76686$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44462b9c$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44469814$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1145535494.518180.112020@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: fun with loading Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:17:51 -0400 "Richard Clark" wrote in message news:achg421i55johjpolga4nc6351p5vvc2th@4ax.com... > On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:18:31 -0400, "Yuri Blanarovich" > wrote: > >>Richard can search for that "no good" article in CQ >>Mag. and query them > > Hi Yuri, > > That's got to be a recommendation! You can't remember the > particulars, you can't remember the name, and I have to carry your > water. You sound like a Washington bureaucrat in the White House - > "Trust me! I'm here to help you with your Social Security." [It will > be made as easy as the new drug benefit.] > > Now THERE's a standard of efficiency and performance that has been > "proven." ;-) > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC That's right, for me it was enough to remember the results. If you want more info, you can Google it or SeeeKeeew it. You ain't paying me and for free advice this should do it. If I wanted to get details and build the coils, I would dig for it. For now I have better idea for loaded loop antenna, so it is on the back burner. Now you are mixing Washington in addition to Fractals - not very good picture of your "fakultys" if you have to rely on social security. Any constructive ideas besides filibusters and "Bush- baaad"? Sayonara! 73 (doesn't need 's - they are included) - if I was nitpicker like you :-) Yuri, K3BU/m Article: 223712 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Lee" References: Subject: Re: Antenna gains Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:47:41 GMT "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:gc2dnfBs3fcigdXZRVnyqQ@bt.com... > The antenna gain of a half-wave dipole relative to an isotrope is > 1.61. 2.14 dbi ...Shirley ??....... Lee......de G6ZSG.... > > What are the gains relative to an isotrope of - > > A dipole with one reflector. > A dipole with one reflector and one director. > An N-element dipole array like a Yagi. > > Only approximate answers are needed. > > Thanking you in anticipation. > ---- > Reg. > > Article: 223713 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 07:35:51 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > You are the expert on Vf. You assert without proof that a half-length > coil has the same Vf as the full-length resonant coil. OK, even if I > accepted that supposition, what happens at a quarter-length or at a > tenth-length? I am simply asking how the function changes between the > "known" limits of 1.0 and <0.02. You have repeatedly ducked any sort of > answer. Seems Richard Clark has proven that it doesn't change between the "known" limits of 1.0 and <0.02. Where did those "known" limits come from anyway? For a single turn coil, seems the VF would roughly be the pitch divided by the circumference, something that would equal 1.0 only when the pitch and circumference were equal. For the 4 TPI, 6" diameter coil, the VF formula yields 0.02. The pitch divided by the circumference yields 0.013. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223714 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Fred Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Message-ID: <4q2h42dqnj1nh2n6e5e48qlm4sjl90158e@4ax.com> References: <2LS1g.70214$Jd.36887@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 07:36:15 GMT On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:08:14 GMT, "Tom Donaly" wrote: >Fred wrote: >> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:54:39 GMT, Skirt Chaser >> wrote: >> >> >>>ARRL threw principle out the window when they caved in to the demands of >>>the Lambda Amateur Radio Club (LARC). It was a sad day for me indeed when >>>I opened my beloved QST magazine and there on the pages were photos of >>>queers on a Tropical DXpedition, and in living color no less. The ARRL >>>wanted us to embrace a sick perverted lifestyle and be one big happy >>>family. To me, it was the spark that signaled the death of a once proud >>>organization, and it turned liberal. >>> >>>Now the queers have all but taken over, they're like the military wing of >>>the Democratic party, and always in your face. It's not even safe to take >>>your kids to Easter egg hunts anymore. I know you're all going to disagree >>>with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking >>>his ass just ain't right. The ARRL promoted this, now look what happened >>>to our radio groups. >>> >>>SC >> >> >> I know a gay couple and they are not in your face. In fact... oddly >> enough they don't support gay marriage or all the other liberal >> nonsense. They are quite conservative. They also don't claim they have >> some bullshit scientific right to do what they do. It is only the >> retarded flakes like HIV-Markytard that ruin it for the rest of them. > >At least being homosexual keeps them away from the farm animals. Do >y'all have a branch of the Log Cabin Club out there, Fred? >73, >Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Why? Are you looking for a club? Article: 223715 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Fred Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Message-ID: References: <1145541385.985202.176180@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 07:37:09 GMT On 20 Apr 2006 06:56:26 -0700, "AC7PN" wrote: >Watching two men holding hands and kissing gives me the creeps less >than your intolerant letter. What two men do out of my sight doesn't >bother me at all. Skirt Chaser should do us all a favor and practice >his intollerance in the privacy of his own home. > >Although I'm not about to go see that Broke Back Mountain movie I would >be happy to talk with a gay ham on the bands. > >Bob AC7PN I am sure you would... Article: 223716 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <25sf42tf6bveh3b5up6r65fes682m4fu9u@4ax.com> <9AS1g.12875$4L1.9069@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <5ibg42d5qdkbrbo0b4pgluikl8k7un0qsb@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 07:39:11 GMT Richard Clark wrote: > You can't change the Vf by shortening a Vf = 0.02 coil, hmmm? > Remarkable shortening of your own theory there. It was Gene Fuller who said the coil varied between the "known" limits of 1.0 and <0.02, not I. I just replied to Gene's posting. You and I seem to be in agreement that the VF of the coil doesn't change with a change in length. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223717 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: Antenna gains Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 07:57:33 GMT On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:47:41 GMT, "Lee" wrote: > >"Reg Edwards" wrote in message >news:gc2dnfBs3fcigdXZRVnyqQ@bt.com... >> The antenna gain of a half-wave dipole relative to an isotrope is >> 1.61. > >2.14 dbi ...Shirley ??....... The number one commonly sees is 1.64 (which is about 2.14dB)... not far off 1.61. Owen -- Article: 223718 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jeff" Subject: Re: Antenna gains Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:31:38 +0100 Message-ID: References: >>"Reg Edwards" wrote in message >>news:gc2dnfBs3fcigdXZRVnyqQ@bt.com... >>> The antenna gain of a half-wave dipole relative to an isotrope is >>> 1.61. >> >>2.14 dbi ...Shirley ??....... > Hook line & sinker into Reg's trap. 1.61 linear gain not dB. 73 Jeff Article: 223719 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Lee" References: Subject: Re: Antenna gains Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:35:29 GMT "Jeff" wrote in message news:e2a8ns$vfv$1@emma.aioe.org... > >>"Reg Edwards" wrote in message > >>news:gc2dnfBs3fcigdXZRVnyqQ@bt.com... > >>> The antenna gain of a half-wave dipole relative to an isotrope is > >>> 1.61. > >> > >>2.14 dbi ...Shirley ??....... > > > > Hook line & sinker into Reg's trap. > > 1.61 linear gain not dB. Trap or not , i`m still correct ....... ;-) Lee....de G6ZSG... > > 73 > Jeff > > Article: 223720 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Lee" References: Subject: Re: Antenna gains Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:51:19 GMT "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:FuqdnUJkw6Z4OtXZRVnytQ@bt.com... > > The number one commonly sees is 1.64 (which is about 2.14dB)... not > > far off 1.61. > > > > Owen > ==================================== > > Yes, the difference is nearly 1/75th of an S-unit. That's almost > enough to make some people lose a contest. > ---- > Reg. > > You could be right Reg.... Lee.........G6ZSG. Article: 223721 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 07:26:39 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: fun with loading References: <403942te0vdkte65fo3rsgcuga3t2pqtki@4ax.com> <931a421onp5m58fsnpe16kll01qv46t5d2@4ax.com> <44457d74$0$76686$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44462b9c$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44469814$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <4448cf80$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Michael Coslo wrote: > > > Is there a beer called Budweiser now? Hopefully one to replace that old > PeeWaa that was sold under the same name! ;^) > > > > > darn stuff could give me a headache and make me queasy after one > can..... ick. > > > - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - That's the additives. Lots of people get headaches from AB products. I'm not sure which additives might do it, but boss probably does. He is very much into making homebrew. Even has a kegging system. Odd as it may sound, the pumpkin beer he made last fall was absolutely delicious. tom K0TAR Article: 223722 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 07:40:37 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Antenna gains References: Message-ID: <4448d2c6$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > The antenna gain of a half-wave dipole relative to an isotrope is > 1.61. > > What are the gains relative to an isotrope of - > > A dipole with one reflector. > A dipole with one reflector and one director. > An N-element dipole array like a Yagi. > > Only approximate answers are needed. > > Thanking you in anticipation. > ---- > Reg. > > In a yagi gain is not related to the number of elements (as long as there are enough) once the boom gets significantly long. The point at which it is significantly long could be argued to be somewhere between 1/4 of a wavelength to a wavelength, where the effect is hard to see at 1/4, and absolutely there at 1. Are you looking for some way to reasonably predict yagi gain? If so, there are a couple 3 equations which do a very fair job. Basically you need one for short yagis, and another for long. If you're interested, I'll dig the short boom out for you, but I can't right now, as I'm already waaaay behind schedule for getting to work. Here's the one that works best for long booms - G = 10 log (5.4075 B + 4.25) for B GT 1 Where G is gain in dBd and B is boomlength in wavelengths. tom K0TAR Article: 223723 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <3_b1g.19794$az4.7266@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: <6S42g.28427$az4.181@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:11:30 GMT Cecil, Since you have fallen back to the old "round and round the helix" model there is little hope for agreement. It is interesting, however, that even the Corum model for Vf at resonance is not as slow as the purely geometric model. Must be those standing waves again. 73, Gene W4SZ Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: > >> You are the expert on Vf. You assert without proof that a half-length >> coil has the same Vf as the full-length resonant coil. OK, even if I >> accepted that supposition, what happens at a quarter-length or at a >> tenth-length? I am simply asking how the function changes between the >> "known" limits of 1.0 and <0.02. You have repeatedly ducked any sort >> of answer. > > > Seems Richard Clark has proven that it doesn't change between > the "known" limits of 1.0 and <0.02. Where did those "known" > limits come from anyway? > > For a single turn coil, seems the VF would roughly be the pitch > divided by the circumference, something that would equal 1.0 only > when the pitch and circumference were equal. > > For the 4 TPI, 6" diameter coil, the VF formula yields 0.02. > > The pitch divided by the circumference yields 0.013. Article: 223724 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: <4447f979_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> <124g5i6gm71mo0a@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 08:27:11 -0500 Message-ID: <4448dce9_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> "Roy Lewallen" wrote: > The maximum far field (sky wave) gain of a ground mounted > quarter wave vertical over average ground, with a completely lossless > ground system, is on the order of 0 dBi, and this occurs at roughly 25 > degrees above the horizon (both depending on > frequency as well as ground characteristics). _____________ The above is an understandable conclusion using NEC analysis, however it is not supported empirically. If it was, AM broadcast stations would perform very much differently than they do. The measured data in Brown, Lewis & Epstein's 1937 benchmark paper "Ground Systems as a Factor in Antenna Efficiency" proved that the *radiated* groundwave field from a vertical monopole working against 113 buried radials each 0.41 lambda in length was within a few percent of its calculated peak value for a radiation pattern with maximum gain in the horizontal plane. The path length for the measurement was 0.3 miles, which was in the far field of the vertical monopole configurations measured. BL&E's measurements, and the results of thousands of measurements made of the groundwave fields of MW broadcast stations using such radial ground systems ever since demonstrate that their peak gain always lies in the horizontal plane. It is true that, as a groundwave propagation path becomes longer, the field measured at increasing elevations above the earth at distant ranges might be higher than measured at ground level at those ranges. But that is not because more field was launched by the original radiator toward those higher elevations -- it is because the the groundwave path has higher losses, which accumulate as that path lengthens. Therefore a NEC plot showing the conditions reported in the quote above do not accurately depict the elevation pattern as it is launched from the radiator, and the groundwave field it will generate. There are software programs designed for calculating MW groundwave field strength given the FCC "efficiency" of the radiator and the conductivity of the path. The radiator efficiency is the groundwave field developed by the radiator with a given applied power at a given distance (1 kW @ 1 km). These values must meet a certain minimum level for the class of station. I think in all cases, they must be within ~0.5 dB of the theoretical value for a radiation pattern with its peak gain in the horizontal plane. In the case of directional MW antennas, this performance must be proven by field measurements. Finally, standard equations show a peak field of ~137.6 mV/m at 1 mile from a 1/2-wave dipole radiating 1 kW in free space. The calculated groundwave field at 1 mile radiated by 1 kW from a 1/4-wave vertical MW monopole over a perfect ground plane is ~195 mV/m. This is the same field as generated by the free space 1/2-wave dipole, when all radiation is confined to one hemisphere (137.6 x 1.414). The groundwave fields measured from thousands of installed MW broadcast antenna systems confirm that their intrinsic radiation patterns are within a fraction of a decibel of that perfect radiator over a perfect ground plane, no matter what is the conductivity at the antenna site (N.B. Reg). RF Article: 223725 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "west" Subject: Coax House Panel Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:38:30 GMT I am trying to gather ideas on how to have my coax cables (4 so far) dressed to enter my house from the various antennae. 2 of the coaxes have "N" connectors and 2 have PL-259 connectors. I would like to address lightning safety (Florida) as a primary consideration with a clean professional look as the secondary consideration. The house has a typical stucco/concrete block exterior, with a stud/dry-wall interior. How do you address this issue? Can you describe your setup? Thank you. Cordially, west AF4GC Article: 223726 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Coax House Panel Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:37:19 -0400 On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:38:30 GMT, "west" wrote: >I am trying to gather ideas on how to have my coax cables (4 so far) dressed >to enter my house from the various antennae. 2 of the coaxes have "N" >connectors and 2 have PL-259 connectors. I would like to address lightning >safety (Florida) as a primary consideration with a clean professional look >as the secondary consideration. The house has a typical stucco/concrete >block exterior, with a stud/dry-wall interior. >How do you address this issue? Can you describe your setup? Thank you. > >Cordially, >west >AF4GC > I have used several approaches. In raised houses, I have used the floor as an entrance for the feed lines. In my current location with a slab-floor, I feed the leads behind the vinyl siding and enter the home though a wall outlet with two SO-239 feed-thru connectors in the plate. The wires go into a CATV cover that happened to be on the house already, where it is grounded to the ground-rod used for CATV and the electrical panel. From there, my coax is run along the ground at the edge of the house to a point at which I plan to setup a vertical antenna during those times I wish to use it. When not using it, I will remove it and place it back in the garage. (we have neighborhood covenants :( ). In a previous home, I drilled a hole in the bottom of a closet corner (inside near the wall so it won't be seen by someone casually looking into the closet) and run my cables under the closet door to my rig which was on a table next to the door. A 3 inch piece of PVC pipe stuffed with plastic and foam sealed the weather and bugs out. When I left, a wood disk was glued and nailed into place so the hole was not obvious or offensive to the landlord when I left. I am currently working on a different kind of 'flagpole' hidden antenna idea for this location so I can temporarily install dipole antenna(s) as desired without upsetting the neighbors. I hope this helps. 73 for now -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 223727 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Michael Coslo Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 11:30:24 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> Richard Clark wrote: > > Investigating Fig. 1 reveals there is no way to resolve the Vf through > shortening a coil. Only Cecil could argue there's a pony in all that > horseshit, so while he's saddling himself to that mound, let's proceed > to see why his dotaged enthusiasm is ill-founded. Wow! One of the bestest funniest paragraphs I've ever had the pleasure of reading! Remind me never to get on your bad side....... 8^) Back on topic now. Was there ever any correlation between the measurements made by Cecil and Yuri with the information and tests performed by Tom W8JI? I had asked the question a couple times, but have no answer yet. Maybe the message got lost. I might be being simple here, but it seems that maybe if there was a reasonable correlation drawn between the two instances.we could avoid all the other junk going on. Although getting wrapped around the axle apparently has its own benefits to some..... - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Article: 223728 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dr.Death" Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:46:30 -0500 Message-ID: <124hvik49515e94@corp.supernews.com> References: <1145541385.985202.176180@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> "Fred" wrote in message news:es2h42t8e2b54t9v971jmc1q2et4eoihpi@4ax.com... > On 20 Apr 2006 06:56:26 -0700, "AC7PN" wrote: > >>Watching two men holding hands and kissing gives me the creeps less >>than your intolerant letter. What two men do out of my sight doesn't >>bother me at all. Skirt Chaser should do us all a favor and practice >>his intollerance in the privacy of his own home. >> >>Although I'm not about to go see that Broke Back Mountain movie I would >>be happy to talk with a gay ham on the bands. >> >>Bob AC7PN > > I am sure you would... He won't go see it, but he probably owns a copy. Article: 223729 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Allisonnospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Antenna gains Message-ID: <8q1i425crehk76ftv7v6k0sfff9ekdvh25@4ax.com> References: <4448d2c6$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:25:56 GMT On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 14:44:33 +0100, "Reg Edwards" wrote: > >"Tom Ring" wrote >> Here's the one that works best for long booms - >> >> G = 10 log (5.4075 B + 4.25) for B GT 1 >> >> Where G is gain in dBd and B is boomlength in wavelengths. >> >======================================= >Thanks Tom, > >If we have 5 or 6 elements spaced approx 1/4-wave apart, that makes a >boom length of 1 wavelength and a gain of 10 dB relative to a dipole. > >Can experienced users of Yagi design programs confirm that 10 dB is in >the right ballpark? > >Yes please, I would like to see the equation for short booms and fewer >elements on your return from the salt mine. >---- >Reg. At a minimum yes, typically a bit more. Allison Article: 223730 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: <4447f979_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> <124g5i6gm71mo0a@corp.supernews.com> <4448dce9_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> <9NOdnQtmw4AletXZRVnyuQ@bt.com> Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 11:30:25 -0500 Message-ID: <444907dd_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> "Reg Edwards" wrote > So you cleverly avoid the problem of how to calculate the effects > of ground conductivity by laying down more than enough radials > of more than sufficient length to hide the effects. > > B,L & E sure had the right idea. > > But hardly a satisfactory economic engineering solution. _________________ So you think it is preferable to install a less than optimal radial ground system, as long as you can calculate how deficient it is? MW broadcast stations want/need maximum groundwave coverage. Installing a "BL&E" radial ground system will provide that for all conductivity conditions at the tx antenna site -- which equates to a very satisfactory and economic engineering solution for this application. RF Article: 223731 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: switcher Subject: question about tunable capacitor: how to mount ?? Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:58:43 +0200 Message-ID: On the picture, you'll see 7 connections for the cables, oe at the bottom (7), 6 at the top of the C. How do I need to connect the cables to have the maximum out of my AM/SW loop antenna ?? http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/tunablec.jpg I would like to know what I can do with screws A, B, C and D, and of course, where to connect the cable ends ... I am making one loop with these tools: these are the picts: http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/loop83cm.jpg the loop, diameter = 83 cm. http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/loopbottom.jpg The bottom, a plastic case 11 x 18 cm. http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/loopbottom2.jpg The plastic screws that fit the hulahoop. I will mount the C inside the box, so I'll have no cables outside ... Thanks, Marc -- een appeltje te schillen met http://applefaulty.be http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/bwnl.htm Breng je iMac G5 terug (ik wil binnen 2 jaar geen defecte 2de hands Apple kopen) http://www.apple.com/nl/support/imac/repairextensionprogram/ Article: 223732 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Bill Turner" Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. References: <4447a18e_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> Message-ID: <44491c1d$1_3@newsfeed.slurp.net> Date: 21 Apr 2006 12:53:33 -0500 ORIGINAL MESSAGE: jawod wrote: > and EVERYONE said Quayle was wrong *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** Sorry, that is not true. Quayle was attacked left, right and center on a personal level, but not one major newspaper, news magazine or TV network said his conclusions about Murphy Brown were wrong. I remember it well. I'm no particular fan of Quayle, but fair is fair. Bill T. Article: 223733 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ralph Mowery" References: Subject: Re: question about tunable capacitor: how to mount ?? Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:01:14 GMT "switcher" wrote in message news:no-9BCBA3.18583921042006@ns.stben.net... > On the picture, you'll see 7 connections for the cables, oe at the > bottom (7), 6 at the top of the C. How do I need to connect the cables > to have the maximum out of my AM/SW loop antenna ?? > > http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/tunablec.jpg > > > I would like to know what I can do with screws A, B, C and D, and of > course, where to connect the cable ends ... > I am not sure how to connect the wires to the loop, but they go to the tabs that are numbered. The screws go to 4 small trimmer capacitors for adjustments. Usually that kind of capacitor comes out of an AM/FM radio and the capacitors are for fine adjustments of the ranges. One for the frequency of the oscillator and one for the tuning for each band. They mostly affect the high end of the band as they are small in compairison to the main capacitor. The are hooked internally to the main capacitors the shaft adjusts. If you look close you will see the half round plate turn as you turn the screw. A coil is usually adjust for the low end of the band. You go back and forth from the low end , adjusting the coil and to the high end adjusting the screw for the best tracking across the band. The oscillator for the frequency readout and the tuning for maximum signal. Article: 223734 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:39:29 GMT K7ITM wrote: > All this wave BS is just mathematical abstraction to 'splain what's > really going on anyway. Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever going to understand what's really going on by superposing waves to the point where half the information is lost? And how does one know the failure point of the lumped circuit model if they don't understand the superior distributed network superset model? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223735 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:12:32 GMT Richard Clark wrote: > Neither Cecil nor Yuri made any measurements. I made self-resonance measurements on loading coils and standing wave current measurements on a 6m dipole. W8JI said my measurements were in error. W7EL said my measurements agreed with EZNEC. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223736 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Fred Subject: Re: put the blame for the subject you don't like on the prep take a little personal responiblity Message-ID: <4pbi42l1b7hkt06bn30p1e5f7dgr2a6qbj@4ax.com> References: <1145541385.985202.176180@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> <124hvik49515e94@corp.supernews.com> <1145635794.004708.235920@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:16:54 GMT On 21 Apr 2006 09:09:54 -0700, "an old freind" wrote: > >Dr.Death wrote: >> "Fred" wrote in message >> news:es2h42t8e2b54t9v971jmc1q2et4eoihpi@4ax.com... >> > On 20 Apr 2006 06:56:26 -0700, "AC7PN" wrote: > >> >>Bob AC7PN >> > >> > I am sure you would... >> >> He won't go see it, but he probably owns a copy. > >just such reamrks are proof Dr yuyou are amoug the perps Please type in English. It is impossible to understand what you are trying to say, but then you are a confused individual so maybe that is how you are... Hey, that guy wants to talk to a fag on the air. I suggest you guys can link up on Ecolink and have a gay old time by yourselves. Article: 223737 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:52:21 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > > Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever > going to understand what's really going on by superposing > waves to the point where half the information is lost? Cecil, That question explains everything. It demonstrates conclusively that you no understanding of superposition. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223738 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <8La2g.29336$az4.15605@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:53:40 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: > >> >> Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever >> going to understand what's really going on by superposing >> waves to the point where half the information is lost? > > > > Cecil, > > That question explains everything. It demonstrates conclusively that you > no understanding of superposition. > > 73, > Gene > W4SZ It also demonstrates that I can't proofread two sentences. Article: 223739 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:22:51 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Antenna gains References: <4448d2c6$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <44494d2c$0$1015$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Ian White GM3SEK wrote: > > There isn't really "an" equation for gain versus boom length, because > boom length is only an indicator of the potentially achievable gain. But > nothing "makes" a yagi deliver any particular gain figure. > > Quite the opposite: very often, yagi designers will deliberately > sacrifice some forward gain to obtain better performance in other > important respects. These can include a cleaner pattern, a more > convenient feed impedance and better tolerance to element loading by > rain and ice; and all maintained over a wider bandwidth. > > Yagis that have been single-mindedly optimized for maximum gain tend to > be poor performers in other respects - especially tolerance to element > loading. > > The equation that Tom quoted is just the best-fit line through the gain > figures for one particular family of reasonably good long yagi designs. > Other good designs will have similar gain, but different performance in > other respects. And for every good yagi design, there are many more that > come nowhere near this level of performance. > Ian is correct, and I should have stated that this equation is for well designed yagis. Also there were 3 families of antennas involved, plus some odds and ends. The K1FO models all are within about 2 tenths of a dB of the line in question. Also, if we move to pure gain number, as in the multiplication factor, the line produced by well designed yagis is virtually ruler straight above 1 wavelength, and up to a a point I can't remember. It's above 10. And then it starts to roll off, which makes sense. I'd have to go look at the models again to find where the rolloff becomes noticable. tom K0TAR Article: 223740 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Telamon Subject: Re: question about tunable capacitor: how to mount ?? References: Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:32:44 GMT In article , switcher wrote: > On the picture, you'll see 7 connections for the cables, oe at the > bottom (7), 6 at the top of the C. How do I need to connect the cables > to have the maximum out of my AM/SW loop antenna ?? > > http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/tunablec.jpg > > > I would like to know what I can do with screws A, B, C and D, and of > course, where to connect the cable ends ... > > > > I am making one loop with these tools: > these are the picts: > http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/loop83cm.jpg > > the loop, diameter = 83 cm. > > http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/loopbottom.jpg > The bottom, a plastic case 11 x 18 cm. > > http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/loopbottom2.jpg > The plastic screws that fit the hulahoop. > > I will mount the C inside the box, so I'll have no cables outside ... The capacitor will go across the coil or in other words connect to the ends of the coil. The capacitor is made of two opposing conducting plates with an insulator between them. For most tunable capacitors the insulator is air. One plate will stay in place and the other will rotate by turning the shaft. When the plates are meshed together you have maximum capacitance and lowest frequency of operation. You will have to look through the case to find the connections to the opposing plates for each section. I can't tell from the picture but it looks like this box has two or more sections. You can parallel the sections together if one section does not have enough capacitance. Also hard to tell is what the "screws" are in the picture but I expect that they are trimmers (additional small adjustable capacitors) that are arrayed across the main capacitor sections for alignment purposes. -- Telamon Ventura, California Article: 223741 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <444962BD.1090309@worldnet.att.net> From: John Subject: Re: Coax House Panel References: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:54:59 GMT Buck wrote: > On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:38:30 GMT, "west" > wrote: > > >>I am trying to gather ideas on how to have my coax cables (4 so far) dressed >>to enter my house from the various antennae. 2 of the coaxes have "N" >>connectors and 2 have PL-259 connectors. I would like to address lightning >>safety (Florida) as a primary consideration with a clean professional look >>as the secondary consideration. The house has a typical stucco/concrete >>block exterior, with a stud/dry-wall interior. >>How do you address this issue? Can you describe your setup? Thank you. >> >>Cordially, >>west >>AF4GC >> > > > > I have used several approaches. In raised houses, I have used the > floor as an entrance for the feed lines. In my current location with > a slab-floor, I feed the leads behind the vinyl siding and enter the > home though a wall outlet with two SO-239 feed-thru connectors in the > plate. The wires go into a CATV cover that happened to be on the > house already, where it is grounded to the ground-rod used for CATV > and the electrical panel. From there, my coax is run along the ground > at the edge of the house to a point at which I plan to setup a > vertical antenna during those times I wish to use it. When not using > it, I will remove it and place it back in the garage. (we have > neighborhood covenants :( ). > > > In a previous home, I drilled a hole in the bottom of a closet corner > (inside near the wall so it won't be seen by someone casually looking > into the closet) and run my cables under the closet door to my rig > which was on a table next to the door. A 3 inch piece of PVC pipe > stuffed with plastic and foam sealed the weather and bugs out. When I > left, a wood disk was glued and nailed into place so the hole was not > obvious or offensive to the landlord when I left. > > I am currently working on a different kind of 'flagpole' hidden > antenna idea for this location so I can temporarily install dipole > antenna(s) as desired without upsetting the neighbors. > > I hope this helps. > > 73 for now > > I raise the bottom sash of the window and install a metal plate across the opening. The sash must be sealed to both the plate and to the upper sash to prevent leaks. The plate itself is connected to the main shack ground just outside. Bulkhead style connectors both UHF and N are used for the coax leads. I used an octal socket for the rotor cable and an F connector for a power lead to a mast mounted 432 preamp. The point is that all the connections can be easily removed if there is lightning in the area. I did the same things some years back for my Dad's house in Florida; unfortunately this was after having some lightning damage. In his previous house with cinder block walls, we put a piece of pipe right through the wall with a downward facing elbow outside. Leave a drain loop on the coax and seal the pipe with insulation to keep out the bugs. John Article: 223742 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 23:08:37 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever >> going to understand what's really going on by superposing >> waves to the point where half the information is lost? > > That question explains everything. It demonstrates conclusively that you > no understanding of superposition. Here's what one of the experts told me about superposition. Gene Fuller, W4SZ wrote: > In a standing wave antenna problem, such as the one you describe, > there is no remaining phase information. Any specific phase > characteristics of the traveling waves died out when the startup > transients died out. > > Phase is gone. Kaput. Vanished. Cannot be recovered. Never to be > seen again. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223743 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <8La2g.29336$az4.15605@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 23:12:42 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: > >> Cecil Moore wrote: >>> Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever >>> going to understand what's really going on by superposing >>> waves to the point where half the information is lost? >> >> That question explains everything. It demonstrates conclusively that >> you no understanding of superposition. >> > It also demonstrates that I can't proofread two sentences. Take two PSK signals, superpose them through the same coax, and see how much information is lost. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223744 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:44:48 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Antenna gains References: <4448d2c6$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <44496e71$0$1016$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > "Tom Ring" wrote > >>Here's the one that works best for long booms - >> >>G = 10 log (5.4075 B + 4.25) for B GT 1 >> >>Where G is gain in dBd and B is boomlength in wavelengths. >> > > ======================================= > Thanks Tom, > > If we have 5 or 6 elements spaced approx 1/4-wave apart, that makes a > boom length of 1 wavelength and a gain of 10 dB relative to a dipole. > > Can experienced users of Yagi design programs confirm that 10 dB is in > the right ballpark? > > Yes please, I would like to see the equation for short booms and fewer > elements on your return from the salt mine. > ---- > Reg. > > This one by Bill Myers, K1GQ, is supposed to work well for short yagis. I have no experience with it. All of mine is with V/U HF yagis. G = 3Ln(B) + 9.85 tom K0TAR Article: 223745 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "amdx" References: Subject: Re: question about tunable capacitor: how to mount ?? Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:44:54 -0500 Message-ID: <47391$44497c86$45011502$16426@KNOLOGY.NET> "switcher" wrote in message news:no-9BCBA3.18583921042006@ns.stben.net... > On the picture, you'll see 7 connections for the cables, oe at the > bottom (7), 6 at the top of the C. How do I need to connect the cables > to have the maximum out of my AM/SW loop antenna ?? > > http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/tunablec.jpg > > > I would like to know what I can do with screws A, B, C and D, and of > course, where to connect the cable ends ... > > > > I am making one loop with these tools: > these are the picts: > http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/loop83cm.jpg > > the loop, diameter = 83 cm. > > http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/loopbottom.jpg > The bottom, a plastic case 11 x 18 cm. > > http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/amloop/loopbottom2.jpg > The plastic screws that fit the hulahoop. > > I will mount the C inside the box, so I'll have no cables outside ... > > > Thanks, > Marc > > -- > een appeltje te schillen met http://applefaulty.be > http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/bwnl.htm > Breng je iMac G5 terug (ik wil binnen 2 jaar geen defecte 2de hands Apple kopen) > http://www.apple.com/nl/support/imac/repairextensionprogram/ Article: 223746 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Grounding Bar Length For Receiving Only Antenna Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:02:00 -0700 Message-ID: <124j049q6dm9dbd@corp.supernews.com> References: <1144784784.419166.221570@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1145634773.939709.214070@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> n3ox.dan@gmail.com wrote: > . . . > A modest radial system will whip a deep ground rod, though. I'm about > 10% tempted to break out J.D. Jackson' Classical Electrodynamics and > try to calculate the RF resistance vs. depth of a ground rod, but I > know it's going to be hard to deadly. > . . . If you decide to, I'll be interested in seeing how you do it and what results you get. Reg is the only one I've seen so far who can come up with the impedance of a one-terminal device. For those of us stuck with needing two terminals to determine a resistance, we find that the RF resistance of a ground rod depends on what's above the ground. That is, the RF resistance of the ground rod is a function of the nature of the antenna. For example, here's the resistance of a four foot ground rod in average soil at 14 MHz, beneath vertical antennas of various heights: Ant ht ft Ground rod R ohms 16.8 46.2 8.4 34.8 4.2 18.3 These were determined by using NEC-4 and comparing the feedpoint resistance of the vertical over perfect ground with the resistance when connected to a ground rod in average ground. I assume the change in apparent ground rod resistance is due to the change in the field in the ground from the antenna as the antenna height varies. > Quantitative is always best in this sort of discussion, for sure. Indeed. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 223747 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "jimmiefender@bellsouth.net" Subject: mobile loading coils Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 21:26:01 -0400 I want to build some mobile antennas for 10 15 and 20 meters but I am having trouble with the physical design of the coil. My biggest problem is finding readily available material. A shopping list of things to get at the Home Depot would be nice. Antenna would be mounted on my pickup tool box and would like to keep them six ft long so they will fit neatly in the back of the pickup when not in use. I tried this about a year ago and got the antennas to work but the PVC loading coil forms came apart after a while. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Article: 223748 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Coax House Panel Message-ID: References: <444962BD.1090309@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 21:41:08 -0400 On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:54:59 GMT, John wrote: >I raise the bottom sash of the window and install a metal plate across >the opening. >The sash must be sealed to both the plate and to the upper sash to >prevent leaks. The plate itself is connected to the main shack ground >just outside. Bulkhead style connectors both UHF and N are used for the >coax leads. I used an octal socket for the rotor cable and an F >connector for a power lead to a mast mounted 432 preamp. The point is >that all the connections can be easily removed if there is lightning in >the area. I did the same things some years back for my Dad's house in >Florida; unfortunately this was after having some lightning damage. I have also done similar, but a little differently. I used two boards and drilled between them for the wire diameter. This created two half-holes in the edge of each board. I laid the wires down in the holes and laid the other board on top. This sorta worked. I still had to seal between the glass and the top edge of the bottom window (we had old recessed windows) so I drilled the holes in the floor. 72/73 -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 223749 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Grounding Bar Length For Receiving Only Antenna References: <1144784784.419166.221570@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1145634773.939709.214070@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <124j049q6dm9dbd@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 03:21:03 GMT Roy Lewallen wrote: > Reg is the only one I've seen so far who can come up > with the impedance of a one-terminal device. How many terminals are there for an EM wave traveling through empty space? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223750 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: mobile loading coils References: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 03:41:43 GMT jimmiefender@bellsouth.net wrote: > I want to build some mobile antennas for 10 15 and 20 meters but I am > having trouble with the physical design of the coil. I've had good luck on those bands using relatively short lengths of 1.5" diameter, 6 TPI, coil stock and just tie-wrapping the coil to the middle of the fiberglas rod. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223751 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "jimmiefender@bellsouth.net" References: Subject: Re: mobile loading coils Message-ID: Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 02:46:31 -0400 "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:XBh2g.62757$F_3.27505@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... > jimmiefender@bellsouth.net wrote: > >> I want to build some mobile antennas for 10 15 and 20 meters but I am >> having trouble with the physical design of the coil. > > I've had good luck on those bands using relatively short > lengths of 1.5" diameter, 6 TPI, coil stock and just > tie-wrapping the coil to the middle of the fiberglas rod. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Thanks Cecil, I have some old fiberglass 11m antennas, the kind that has a wire antenna heatshrinked to a fiberglass rod that would be pefect for making this. Article: 223752 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 03:03:07 -0700 Message-ID: <124jvqsh3hooqbc@corp.supernews.com> References: <4447f979_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> <124g5i6gm71mo0a@corp.supernews.com> <4448dce9_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> Richard Fry wrote: > "Roy Lewallen" wrote: >> The maximum far field (sky wave) gain of a ground mounted >> quarter wave vertical over average ground, with a completely lossless >> ground system, is on the order of 0 dBi, and this occurs at roughly 25 >> degrees above the horizon (both depending on >> frequency as well as ground characteristics). > _____________ > > The above is an understandable conclusion using NEC analysis, however it > is not supported empirically. If it was, AM broadcast stations would > perform very much differently than they do. NEC analysis has been supported many times by measurement and observation. > The measured data in Brown, Lewis & Epstein's 1937 benchmark paper > "Ground Systems as a Factor in Antenna Efficiency" proved that the > *radiated* groundwave field from a vertical monopole working against 113 > buried radials each 0.41 lambda in length was within a few percent of > its calculated peak value for a radiation pattern with maximum gain in > the horizontal plane. The path length for the measurement was 0.3 miles, > which was in the far field of the vertical monopole configurations > measured. Yes. The question is what is the calculated value. B, L, and E normalized their measurements to the unattenuated field strength at one mile for 1000 watts radiated power. I couldn't find anywhere in their paper where they explained how they determined the ground attenuation between the antenna and their observation point. > BL&E's measurements, and the results of thousands of measurements made > of the groundwave fields of MW broadcast stations using such radial > ground systems ever since demonstrate that their peak gain always lies > in the horizontal plane. No, the field strength is strongest at low elevation angles only close to the antenna, as you further explain below. > It is true that, as a groundwave propagation path becomes longer, the > field measured at increasing elevations above the earth at distant > ranges might be higher than measured at ground level at those ranges. > But that is not because more field was launched by the original radiator > toward those higher elevations -- it is because the the groundwave path > has higher losses, which accumulate as that path lengthens. Therefore a > NEC plot showing the conditions reported in the quote above do not > accurately depict the elevation pattern as it is launched from the > radiator, and the groundwave field it will generate. Of course the standard far field analysis doesn't accurately depict the field close to the antenna -- it's a plot of the field at points very distant from the antenna, as clearly explained in the manual. NEC allows you to include the surface wave if you want, and it accurately shows the total field including the surface wave at a distance of your choice. (Accurate, that is, up to a hundred km or so, beyond which the deviation of the flat ground model from the curved Earth begins affecting results.) Don't feel bad -- Reg has a lot of trouble understanding this, too. > There are software programs designed for calculating MW groundwave field > strength given the FCC "efficiency" of the radiator and the conductivity > of the path. The radiator efficiency is the groundwave field developed > by the radiator with a given applied power at a given distance (1 kW @ 1 > km). These values must meet a certain minimum level for the class of > station. I think in all cases, they must be within ~0.5 dB of the > theoretical value for a radiation pattern with its peak gain in the > horizontal plane. In the case of directional MW antennas, this > performance must be proven by field measurements. > > Finally, standard equations show a peak field of ~137.6 mV/m at 1 mile > from a 1/2-wave dipole radiating 1 kW in free space. The calculated > groundwave field at 1 mile radiated by 1 kW from a 1/4-wave vertical MW > monopole over a perfect ground plane is ~195 mV/m. This is the same > field as generated by the free space 1/2-wave dipole, when all radiation > is confined to one hemisphere (137.6 x 1.414). > > The groundwave fields measured from thousands of installed MW broadcast > antenna systems confirm that their intrinsic radiation patterns are > within a fraction of a decibel of that perfect radiator over a perfect > ground plane, no matter what is the conductivity at the antenna site > (N.B. Reg). No, the measured fields from quarter wave broadcast antennas are considerably less than 195 mV/m for 1 kW at one mile, unless perhaps there's only salt water between the antenna and measurement point. As you explained above, the surface wave is attenuated with distance. What you seem to be missing is that the attenuation is strongly dependent on ground conductivity (between antenna and measurement point, not just at the antenna site) and frequency, so the actual field strength at one mile for 1 kW radiated will always be considerably less than the perfect ground case. The 195 mV/m and associated values for various antenna heights is the "unattenuated" or "inverse" field, which doesn't include the surface wave attenuation beyond simple inverse distance field strength reduction. It's the field strength you'd get if the ground between antenna and measurement point were perfect, not what you get over real ground. I'm not very conversant with FCC antenna measurement methodology, but somewhere the measured field strength is normalized to the unattenuated field strength by fitting to a ground attenuation curve, which in turn depends on frequency and ground conductivity. (I've been told that this is the way broadcasters determine ground conductivity -- by seeing how far the measured field strength deviates >from the unattenuated value.) I believe that the surface wave attenuation curves used by the FCC are from the 1937 I.R.E. paper by K.A. Norton. That paper is also the basis for NEC's surface wave calculations. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 223753 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Stevo Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. References: <22se42d1ndkmbrj99p6675l6k2t16rplk4@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 06:56:04 -0400 Tony Roma wrote: >On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:54:39 GMT, Skirt Chaser >wrote: > > > >>I know you're all going to disagree >>with me, but a man touching and sucking on another man's cock and fucking >>his ass just ain't right. >> >> > >You said a mouthful. Oh and I agree with you. It just aint natural! I >mean imagine a guy sucking on my cock. what am I supposed to do, come >in his mouth??? Very disturbing! > > > Again?? Article: 223754 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:16:35 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Antennas (?) on military planes References: <4446f796$0$1015$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <4447f94a$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1145664024.625509.306280@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <444a2cb3$0$1007$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> JWCook wrote: > Hi > > Its a detonation cord to fragment the canopy in case of ejections.. > > Regards > > Thanks. Now if I could find a video of it going off.... tom K0TAR Article: 223755 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Velocity Factor and resonant frequency References: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:03:27 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > Cecil, what formula do you use for the velocity factor of a coil of > diameter D, length L, and N number of turns, in metric units if its > convenient. Reg, it's equation (32) from Dr. Corum's paper at: http://www.ttr.com/TELSIKS2001-MASTER-1.pdf There is a test in the preceeding paragraph to see if that equation is appropriate for a particular coil. Equation (32) is derived from empirical data collected on coils that pass that test. Just be sure the diameter, pitch, and wavelength are all in meters and it will be metric. I'll send you a .gif file of that page of Dr. Corum's paper. The graph in Fig. 1 is for equation (32). While you are at it, take a look at equation (47) for the characteristic impedance of the coil and let us know what you think. > Do you have a formula for the self-resonant frequency? Here's what I have been doing lately: 1. Using as close as EZNEC can come to my 75m bugcatcher coil stock, create enough turns for the modeled coil to be self-resonant on 4 MHz. My 75m bugcatcher coil stock is ~0.5 ft diameter and 48 turns per foot. 2. Delete enough turns to make it look like my real- world bugcatcher coil. Use that coil for EZNEC modeling at 4 MHz. 3. Assume the velocity factor didn't change appreciably when deleting those turns. 4. Calculate the number of linear feet occupied by the coil by dividing the length of the coil by the velocity factor. 5. Calculate the percentage of a wavelength occupied by the coil by dividing the results of (4.) above, by 246 feet, a wavelength at 4 MHz. Of all the measurements and modeling so far, this is what I have come up with as the most accurate estimate of the percentage of a wavelength occupied by the coil. And no, it is not 90 degrees minus the rest of the antenna. The requirement for a purely resistive feedpoint impedance is that the superposition of the forward and reflected voltages have the same phase angle as the superposition of the forward and reflected currents - nothing more. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223756 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:15:48 -0400 Message-ID: <124ki4rql72uv5c@corp.supernews.com> References: <4447f979_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> <124g5i6gm71mo0a@corp.supernews.com> <4448dce9_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> <124jvqsh3hooqbc@corp.supernews.com> Dear Crew: What may have been lost in this discussion - but often provided by Roy - is the difference between a true surface wave and a sky wave (from the same vertical antenna). An excellent ground screen at the base of a vertical antenna reduces the losses and thus increases the amplitude of both the surface and sky wave. A few to several hundred wavelengths from the vertical antenna, the amplitude of the received surface wave is highly dependent on the conductivity of the intervening earth. One could hedge this a bit for frequencies above something like 5 MHz. At distances from the antenna where the surface wave has become weak, the sky wave dominates. As Roy has pointed out several times: the amplitude of the sky wave is mostly determined by ground properties distant from the antenna - much farther away than any reasonable ground screen will extend. The sky wave effect may be demonstrated in NEC by effecting a 0.25 WL vertical with a good set of radials over mediocre ground and then changing the ground, at some distance from the antenna, to salt water. (Visualize the antenna being in the center of a circular island and change the diameter of the island.) Broadcasters at MF, with some exceptions, are interested in maximum surface wave and minimum sky wave. Radio amateurs, for the most part, are interested in maximizing the sky wave. A good radial system assists the radio amateur's goal by improving the overall efficiency. It is the ground distant from the vertical antenna that determines the sky wave. 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net Article: 223757 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hi" Subject: Re: Vertically Polorized Omni Slot Antenna Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:41:58 -0500 Message-ID: <124l1ochpbusd95@corp.supernews.com> References: <1247p6p3cdursca@corp.supernews.com> <5tn9425gk084gkongfvun0v4k5nruelqri@4ax.com> >>This is a horizontally powerized omni slot antenna. >>http://tinyurl.com/kbwkf >>Does anyone know if its possible to make a >>vertically polerized omni slot antenna? >>Matt > > One can be made, but the slots have to be > oriented at a slant on the waveguide. The > trick is to make alternate slots radiate > the horizontal component of their slanted > polarization out of phase but have the > vertical component radiated in-phase. This > is a bit tricky and requires a detailed > knowledge of the standing-wave pattern inside > the waveguide at the frequencies of interest > (and therefore is left as an exercise for the > student). Do you know of any websites or books that might have further info on this? Thanks. Matt Article: 223758 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: dons@yahoo.com (Don) Subject: Re: Coax Question Message-ID: <444a879f.3999812@news.west.cox.net> References: <4445582D.1064B76A@shaw.ca> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:45:57 GMT Irv, Don't plant your coax cables too close together or they won't grow properly! (Don - guess who?) On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 21:20:31 GMT, Irv Finkleman wrote: >Robert11 wrote: >> >> Hello: >> >> Have started running cvoax from a receve-only antenna to the house. >> The coax has a Polyethylene (PE) Outer jacket. >> With this PE jacket, it's upposed to be buriable. >> >> It's becoming a real job for me at my age to dig a slit trench, even a >> shallow one. >> But, I can easily just lay the coax on the surface, without any reql danger >> of anyone >> stepping on it, etc. It's in a pretty out of the way area. >> >> I realize that burying it is undoubtedly best, but in a practical >> sense, how well does a PE outer jacket stand up if just laying on the ground >> ? >> Would be subjected, of course, to rain, and also buried in snow during the >> winter. >> >> Again, it's receive only. >> >> Thanks, >> Bob > >I've had coax running though my yard for the past five or six years. It was >just laid across the grass. Gradually it worked it's way out of sight and >show's no sign of deterioration (electrically). We use the yard a lot, I >mow over it, water it, herbicide it, and everything. It survives the harsh >Alberta winters, wet springs, and all. It was just some RG-213 that I picked >up at a flea market!!!! > >Irv VE6BP >-- >-------------------------------------- >Diagnosed Type II Diabetes March 5 2001 >Beating it with diet and exercise! >297/215/210 (to be revised lower) >58"/43"(!)/44" (already lower too!) >-------------------------------------- >Visit my HomePage at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv/index.html >Visit my Baby Sofia website at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv4/index.htm >Visit my OLDTIMERS website at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv5/index.htm >-------------------- >Irv Finkleman, >Grampa/Ex-Navy/Old Fart/Ham Radio VE6BP >Calgary, Alberta, Canada Article: 223759 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: switcher Subject: Re: question about tunable capacitor: how to mount ?? References: <444A5440.C0E242C4@shaw.ca> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:51:04 +0200 Message-ID: In article <444A5440.C0E242C4@shaw.ca>, Irv Finkleman wrote: > With a one meter loop, a capacitor with a value of 100 pf > or less should beable to tune between about 7 and 30 mhz. A 80 cm loop gives me reception between about 5 and 12 Mhz, this is with a cap from a FM/AM radio kit ... http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/oc/IMAG0018.JPG So, to have higher freq, the loop should be made smaller ... (or higher cap ?..) I have made a loop (single turn too) of 2 X 3 meter, so its diameter is close to 2 meter, and it gives me about 3? to 6Mhz ... African stations on 5000-5100 come in very well here near Ypres / Belgium .... (at night) http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/oc/IMAG0017.JPG I used the 2 meter loop with 3 turns on 1600-1800khz, I could get a lot of pirate stations from holland and ?? Greece or Serbia ...(at night) Just turn the loop about 90? to switch between holland and Greece ... In fact, yesterday I read a wiki about "large" loops (compared to freq, they are large), on FM. I tried the 80cm loop on FM, and ... oops, it is very directional, very good... I found stations I haven't had before ... cite: "The (large) loop antenna is similar to a dipole, except that the ends of the dipole are connected to form a circle, triangle (delta loop antenna) or square. Typically a loop is a multiple of a half or full wavelength in circumference. A circular loop gets higher gain (about 10%) than the other forms of large loop antenna, as gain of this antenna is directly proportional to the area enclosed by the loop, but circles can be hard to support in a flexible wire, making squares and triangles much more popular. Large loop antennas are more immune to localized noise partly due to lack of a need for a groundplane. The large loop has its strongest signal in the plane of the loop, and nulls in the axis perpendicular to the plane of the loop." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_%28electronics%29 -- een appeltje te schillen met http://applefaulty.be http://users.fulladsl.be/spb13810/bwnl.htm Breng je iMac G5 terug (ik wil binnen 2 jaar geen defecte 2de hands Apple kopen) http://www.apple.com/nl/support/imac/repairextensionprogram/ Article: 223760 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> Message-ID: <9tx2g.51040$_S7.28413@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:44:37 GMT Mike Coslo wrote: >> Most of my measurements have been at >> the self-resonant frequency of a loading coil. > > That isn't the design frequency though, is it? No, so I changed my approach. My present approach is to take a self-resonant coil and use only part of the coil on the *same* frequency, e.g. use half the coil as a loading coil on the *same* frequency. That way, the velocity factor should be roughly the same in either case. > I'm not sure I have this straight. I think I understand Tom's info, > yet this has me completely baffled. I accept his magnitude measurements as probably accurate and reasonable. His phase measurements were meaningless since standing wave current phase doesn't change relative to the source and therefore cannot be used to measure phase shift along a wire or through a coil. The standing wave current phase is the same from end to end in a 1/2WL thin-wire dipole. It cannot be used to determine the phase shift through a wire or a dipole. EZNEC reports the same thing. This is key to understanding the misconceptions involved and why the phase measurements were meaningless. > Would the short answer be that you do not find any correlation? *Nobody* has made a valid measurement of the delay through a coil. There's nothing to correlate. One cannot use a signal with unchanging phase to measure that delay. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223761 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "west" References: Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 01:18:02 GMT "Fred" wrote in message news:irbe42thm0v3f33jbm31logq7gjgsio4em@4ax.com... > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:54:39 GMT, Skirt Chaser > wrote: > I know a gay couple and they are not in your face. In fact... oddly > enough they don't support gay marriage or all the other liberal > nonsense. They are quite conservative. They also don't claim they have > some bullshit scientific right to do what they do. It is only the > retarded flakes like HIV-Markytard that ruin it for the rest of them. I know a man who smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day and lived to be 94. Your point? west Article: 223762 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145754635.582153.250030@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 02:12:41 GMT w8ji@akorn.net wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >>I made self-resonance measurements on loading coils >>and standing wave current measurements on a 6m dipole. >>W8JI said my measurements were in error. W7EL said >>my measurements agreed with EZNEC. > > Cecil, Cecil, Cecil! Shame on you. When will you ever quit changing > what other people say? Replying to my measurements, here are your words and W7EL's words: >>W8JI wrote on 3-16-06: >>> Your measurements are probably wrong. ... After we resolve the >>> error in current, we can move on. I repeat: "W8JI said my measurements were in error." >>>W7EL replied on 3-16-06: >>>> The measurement looks good to me. The phase is exactly what EZNEC >>>> predicts -- constant along the wire. I repeat: "W7EL said my measurements agreed with EZNEC." begin quote of entire posting from 3-16-06: ********************************************************************** w8ji@akorn.net wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: > >> Note that at the frequency where the dipole is 1/2WL and resonant, >> it is 180 feet long and 180 degrees long so the number of feet of >> wire is also the number of degrees of antenna. Here is my 1/2WL >> dipole with current pickup coils installed at points 'x' and 'y' and >> FP is the feedpoint,the impedance of which is 60 ohms. >> >> ------------------------------FP-------x---------------y------- >> >> Total length is 180 feet. The distance between 'x' and 'y' is 45 feet. >> Since feet = degrees in this case, the number of degrees between >> 'x' and 'y' is known to be 45 degrees from antenna theory. Those >> 45 degrees are what I am going to attempt to replace with a coil. >> >> So I adjust the feedpoint current to one amp at a reference phase >> angle of zero degrees and measure the current at 'x' and the current >> at 'y'. The current at 'x' is 0.92 amp at 0 deg. The current at 'y' is >> 0.38 amp at 0 deg. Already I am not understanding my measurements. > > > Your measurements are probably wrong. > > When did you measure that? After we resolve the error in current, we > can move on. The measurement looks good to me. The phase is exactly what EZNEC predicts -- constant along the wire. The ratio in magnitudes we'd expect depends on the positions along the wire, not just the spacing. Roy Lewallen, W7EL ************************************************************************** Article: 223763 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Fred Subject: Re: I blame the ARRL for all the homosexual posts. Please Read. Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 04:11:13 GMT On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 01:18:02 GMT, "west" wrote: > >"Fred" wrote in message >news:irbe42thm0v3f33jbm31logq7gjgsio4em@4ax.com... >> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:54:39 GMT, Skirt Chaser >> wrote: > > > >> I know a gay couple and they are not in your face. In fact... oddly >> enough they don't support gay marriage or all the other liberal >> nonsense. They are quite conservative. They also don't claim they have >> some bullshit scientific right to do what they do. It is only the >> retarded flakes like HIV-Markytard that ruin it for the rest of them. > > >I know a man who smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day and lived to be 94. >Your point? > >west Can you read? Markie is here pushing his gay agenda and he is spamming our group. Why do you choose to be so dense? Article: 223764 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: CeeTee <260253@xtra.co.nz> Subject: Antenna love! Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:07:30 +1200 Two antennas met on a roof, fell in love and got married. The ceremony wasn't much, but the reception was excellent!! Article: 223765 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: Antenna gains Message-ID: References: <4448d2c6$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 10:04:11 GMT On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:57:09 +0100, Ian White GM3SEK wrote: >If anyone wants to try a modern correlation, there's lots of data in >the VE7BQH collection: >http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/diy-yagi/ve7bqh.htm > >VE7BQH's data are all for yagis that might be useful for VHF/UHF >moonbounce, so boom lengths start at 1.8wl and range up to 8wl. (This >turns out to be no use to Reg - see later - but it's an interesting >topic in its own right.) > >If anyone is interested in doing it, use the L(WL) and GAIN(dBd) >columns. With Excel, it should take all of ten minutes to get the data >from the web page and into a "scatter X-Y" graph. > Ian, I have plotted the data in VE7BQH's table, along with a polynomial (1) curve fit and also the function given by K0TAR for comparison. The plot is at http://www.vk1od.net/lost/VE7BQHYagiGain.htm . It would be dangerous to assume the fit function applies much below the limits plotted. Owen -- Article: 223766 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "amdx" Subject: Need fiberglass poles for Flag/Pennant antenna Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 06:59:42 -0500 Message-ID: <8edf7$444b6c29$45011502$20300@KNOLOGY.NET> I'm looking for 4- 10ft fiberglass poles to rebuild my Flag/Pennant antenna. I want to keep it as light as possible, but I want it to last 10 years this time. I don't know the strength required. Has anyone used 1" fiberglass for the spreaders? I'll probably use larger. Tell me what you used and where you got it. Thanks, Mike Article: 223767 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Antenna gains Message-ID: References: <4448d2c6$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 08:08:46 -0400 Reg, I don't think there is a 'formula' that is used to predict gain based on boom length. Several experienced experimenters with boom antennas have stated that the number of elements varies the gain very little for a given length, however, given some general design, a number of elements is typically half the gain of the same design with twice as many elements and twice the boom length. In other words, a 6 element beam of some given element spacing has a (number from the air) gain of 6db. A twelve element version with twice the boom length will be in the ballpark of 12 db gain. Given that some 1.5 lambda boom antennas are made for wide bandwidth and others are fine tuned for maximum gain, one cannot have an accurate, or ballpark formula for beams that fit all. One example is a man who was advertising that his j-pole antenna outperformed a 3 element beam. His comparison was to a 3 element beam designed for 180 deg beam width. It had two reflectors and one driven element, but no director. It had a gain of 2.5 db, if I remember correctly. However, the typical 3 element beam a ham would use is 6-8 db gain and has one reflector, one driven element and one director. It's beam width is much narrower than the 180 degrees desired by the man trying to broadcast his bootleg FM BC station. I hope this helps. Let me know. 73 -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 223768 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: <4447f979_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> <124g5i6gm71mo0a@corp.supernews.com> <4448dce9_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> <124jvqsh3hooqbc@corp.supernews.com> <124ki4rql72uv5c@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: EZNEC Vertical interpretation Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 07:12:32 -0500 Message-ID: <444b6e94_3@newsfeed.slurp.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_07C0_01C666A5.4A3AC3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Further to my comments yesterday in this sub-thread, attached is a clip from FCC Rule 73.160(a) concerning the calculation of the vertical plane pattern for AM broadcast stations. Note that the equation used does not include any consideration of ground characteristics. Following below is the text of a post I made on another site about a month ago on the subject of NEC modeling of MW antennas. Note that the field strengths at 1 km in the NEC-2 output are a fairly decent match to the official values in the FCC plot included in the attached PDF document. The data also verify that the real values of field strength at 1 km are not greatly attenuated from their inverse field value for the radiated power and 90 degree radiator height. The RMS of the FCC calculated pattern is ~90% of the non-D inverse field for 1 kW at 1 km from a 90 degree MW radiator system. -- There was a request on BC a few days ago for a way to experiment with AM DA patterns by varying their mechanical and electrical parameters, and seeing the results on the PC screen. Various professional versions of NEC allow this, but even the "Demo" (free) version of EZNEC (http://www.eznec.com) will do this for some of the simpler situations. Once the NEC model is set up, it is easy to vary the input data and see what happens. The results probably are not good enough for prime time, but should be good enough for a concept-level understanding. As an example, EZNEC Demo was used to approximate the nighttime, two-tower pattern of WTAD. The electrical parameters were taken from the CDBS info, and the mechanical dimensions are a SWAG off those, where needed. 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MDQwODE1IDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAwNDA5OTUgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDA0MTEwMiAwMDAwMCBuDQow MDAwMDQxMTUxIDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAwNDIwMDkgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDA0MjA1OCAwMDAwMCBu DQowMDAwMDQyOTE2IDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAwNDMwMDAgMDAwMDAgbg0KdHJhaWxlcg08PA0vU2l6 ZSAyMg0vSURbPDZlZjM1MmJlNGU5NTA4MzRhNzEzOWZlYWY5NmI3NTdhPjw2ZWYzNTJiZTRlOTUw ODM0YTcxMzlmZWFmOTZiNzU3YT5dDT4+DXN0YXJ0eHJlZg0xNzMNJSVFT0YN ------=_NextPart_000_07C0_01C666A5.4A3AC3C0-- Article: 223769 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Antenna gains Message-ID: References: <4448d2c6$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:43:00 -0400 On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 06:17:35 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote: >On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 08:08:46 -0400, Buck wrote: > >[snip] > >>In other words, a 6 element beam of some given element spacing has a >>(number from the air) gain of 6db. A twelve element version with >>twice the boom length will be in the ballpark of 12 db gain. > >You want to rethink this? I've always figured 2.5 - 2.6 dB increase >for each doubling of the boom length (or array size) for practical >purposes. That's pretty close. I don't know the exact numbers and my numbers are just ballpark. yours may very well be more accurate. I haven't tried modeling for accuracy, just what I remember reading about antennas. If you build a 2 lambda antenna and a 4 lambda antenna, they the 4 will have about the same gain as a pair of 2 lambda antennas phased, which is about, but not necessarily exactly double the gain of one antenna. give or take 1/2 db, what is that to signal strength anyway? thanks :) Buck -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 223770 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "delboy" References: Subject: Re: M2 6 Meter Yegis Message-ID: <_PM2g.40346$zf1.35668@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:12:58 GMT "Phil" wrote in message news:sx71g.22108$Kh5.19147@bignews8.bellsouth.net... >I am thinking for replacing my old Creative Design CL-6A 5 element 6 meter > yagis with one of the M Squared antennas, either a 6M7, 6M7JHV, or a > 6M2WLC. > Does anyone know where there's any comparatiuve data on them or where > there > are product reviews on the 6M7 or 6M2WLC (the JHV was in QST a few years > back)? > > Thanks > > Phil Finkle K6EID Try http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/36 Article: 223771 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ml Subject: Re: 40 meter beam for sale References: Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 16:44:31 GMT In article , "Ed" wrote: > M Squared brand, model 40M3L. Several years old but never unboxed, stored > inside, dusty but new in every way. Present price is $1092.00, I will take > $650 for it. Pick-up only in Dallas, Texas. KV5I > eh54@sbcglobal.net so if it's never unboxed, how'd the antenna get dusty? Article: 223772 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ml Subject: 3 beam comparason Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:00:22 GMT hi I was just wondering about how 3 antenna 'types' would compare, I can of course pull the spec's off the manuf home pages, but wonder what a real world interpratation would be and hope somone here might have either used them or have some simular experience to share a multiband log peridic and traditional multiband beam(w/or w/o traps) and a optibeam ofcourse there are pro's and con's of each but just wondering what type might be 'mostly best' overall if you tried to just the playing field as level as possible didn't want this to be about cost per say, just overall performance, but having said that, there sure is a big price swing on those types and I wonder , if anyone one of those antenna types have a overall tremendious benifit based soley on improving received signal strength to warrent one getting it vs say another and or a cheeper one tnx Article: 223773 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jeff Maass" References: <8edf7$444b6c29$45011502$20300@KNOLOGY.NET> Subject: Re: Need fiberglass poles for Flag/Pennant antenna Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:03:48 GMT "amdx" wrote in message news:8edf7$444b6c29$45011502$20300@KNOLOGY.NET... > I'm looking for 4- 10ft fiberglass poles to rebuild my Flag/Pennant > antenna. > I want to keep it as light as possible, but I want it to last 10 years this > time. > I don't know the strength required. Has anyone used 1" fiberglass for the > spreaders? I'll probably use larger. Tell me what you used and where you got > it. > Thanks, Mike Mike: I've used these military surplus mast sections for flag/pennant supports in the Caribbean. They are 44-inches per section when stacked, and six is just right for pennant/flags. There are other sellers, but this will give you an idea of what I'm talking about. http://cgi.ebay.com/HEAVY-DUTY-ANTENNA-48-FIBERGLASS-MAST-SECTIONS-DIPOLE_W0QQitemZ9715771154 73, Jeff K8ND Article: 223774 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:16:14 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Antenna gains References: <4448d2c6$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <444bb65f$0$1009$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Owen Duffy wrote: > > Ian, I have plotted the data in VE7BQH's table, along with a > polynomial (1) curve fit and also the function given by K0TAR for > comparison. > > The plot is at http://www.vk1od.net/lost/VE7BQHYagiGain.htm . > > It would be dangerous to assume the fit function applies much below > the limits plotted. > > Owen > -- Owen, I will try and dig out the original spreadsheet I used. It will be problematic to use, since it's not compatible with anything Microsoft, and there's nothing alse anymore. tom K0TAR Article: 223775 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: Antenna gains Message-ID: <5mqn42lkist8kd21aoqh2j1fkks7r60lpr@4ax.com> References: <4448d2c6$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:06:32 GMT On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 06:17:35 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote: >On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 08:08:46 -0400, Buck wrote: > >[snip] > >>In other words, a 6 element beam of some given element spacing has a >>(number from the air) gain of 6db. A twelve element version with >>twice the boom length will be in the ballpark of 12 db gain. > >You want to rethink this? I've always figured 2.5 - 2.6 dB increase >for each doubling of the boom length (or array size) for practical >purposes. Wes, that is pretty consistent with the fit to the VE7BQH collation which gives me 2.64dB for doubling of the boom length (for a long yagi ( 2 - 8 wavelengths) with sufficient elements). Alternatively, 1dB increase for each 30% increase in boom length. Owen -- Article: 223776 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: microwaves@blueyonder.co.uk (Peter) Subject: Re: Antenna love! Message-ID: <444e09ad.118542905@news.blueyonder.co.uk> References: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 23:14:00 GMT On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:07:30 +1200, CeeTee <260253@xtra.co.nz> wrote: >Two antennas met on a roof, fell in love and got married. The ceremony >wasn't much, but the reception was excellent!! You could say they fell into a trap because one was unbalanced... Peter G3PHO Article: 223777 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Antenna gains Message-ID: References: <4448d2c6$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:55:00 -0400 On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 08:31:10 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote: >On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:43:00 -0400, Buck wrote: > >>On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 06:17:35 -0700, Wes Stewart >>wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 08:08:46 -0400, Buck wrote: >>> >>>[snip] >>> >>>>In other words, a 6 element beam of some given element spacing has a >>>>(number from the air) gain of 6db. A twelve element version with >>>>twice the boom length will be in the ballpark of 12 db gain. >>> >>>You want to rethink this? I've always figured 2.5 - 2.6 dB increase >>>for each doubling of the boom length (or array size) for practical >>>purposes. >> >>That's pretty close. I don't know the exact numbers and my numbers >>are just ballpark. yours may very well be more accurate. I haven't >>tried modeling for accuracy, just what I remember reading about >>antennas. If you build a 2 lambda antenna and a 4 lambda antenna, they >>the 4 will have about the same gain as a pair of 2 lambda antennas >>phased, which is about, but not necessarily exactly double the gain of >>one antenna. >> >>give or take 1/2 db, what is that to signal strength anyway? > >Quite a bit on an EME path. > > >BTW, going from 6 dB to 12 dB isn't a two times increase. you are right. A 6 element antenna to a twelve element antenna or double boom size is about 3 db gain, double power. Sorry. -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 223778 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: 3 beam comparason Message-ID: <6l9o42d16ee1fg4d0e21c5446hcimiim1l@4ax.com> References: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:29:34 -0400 On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:00:22 GMT, ml wrote: >hi > >I was just wondering about how 3 antenna 'types' would compare, I can of >course pull the spec's off the manuf home pages, but wonder what a real >world interpratation would be and hope somone here might have either >used them or have some simular experience to share > > >a multiband log peridic and traditional multiband beam(w/or w/o traps) >and a optibeam > >ofcourse there are pro's and con's of each but just wondering what >type might be 'mostly best' overall if you tried to just the playing >field as level as possible > > >didn't want this to be about cost per say, just overall performance, but >having said that, there sure is a big price swing on those types and I >wonder , if anyone one of those antenna types have a overall >tremendious benifit based soley on improving received signal strength to >warrent one getting it vs say another and or a cheeper one > > > >tnx You have asked a really broad question. A log periodic antenna will outperform a smaller trap multiband two element beam, but probably not a larger one, i.e. one with longer boom and many elements. You will be as well to abide with the manufacturer's specifications until you can pick out the specific antennas to compare. A multiband yagi with traps can out perform a trapless multiband yagi, by being longer and using more elements. I don't know if there is a level playing field unless you can be more specific. Well known amateur radio antenna manufacturers who have been around a while aren't likely to try to fudge the numbers as too many hams are quick to model the antennas and respond with not so kind words faster than the marketing department can spread their lies. I would trust them for the sake of picking the antennas and then ask around about how they compare. I would be more wary of satisfied/dissatisfied users information than manufacturers specs these days. Anyone can get lucky and because of that love the antenna. For example, I have communicated three times to Japan from Georgia. All three events were mobile. However, during that same time, I had a tri-band beam up 50 feet and have never been able to make a japanese contact with it. Therefore, one might conclude that my mobile antenna outperforms my yagi. Of course it was propagation and timing. I used a wonderful trap dipole for about three months. It worked fantastically well. Then I put a fan-style dipole up to test it. It outperformed the trap dipole by a great deal. Until I compared it, the trap was great, now it isn't such a great antenna any more. This is what you are up against. Good luck. -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 223779 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Gary Smith" Subject: 2.4 Gig Wireless Card - No Antenna Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:00:06 +1000 Message-ID: Hi, i am wondering if using a wireless network card without an antenna will destroy it. I presume the SWR would be right up so therefore will damage the card. Any comments? Gary Article: 223780 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "jimmiefender@bellsouth.net" References: Subject: Re: mobile loading coils Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 23:23:04 -0400 "jimmiefender@bellsouth.net" wrote in message news:MAf2g.5282$MM6.865@bignews3.bellsouth.net... >I want to build some mobile antennas for 10 15 and 20 meters but I am >having trouble with the physical design of the coil. My biggest problem is >finding readily available material. A shopping list of things to get at the >Home Depot would be nice. Antenna would be mounted on my pickup tool box >and would like to keep them six ft long so they will fit neatly in the back >of the pickup when not in use. I tried this about a year ago and got the >antennas to work but the PVC loading coil forms came apart after a while. >Any help would be greatly appreciated. > I put together the 15m and 10m antenna today. 10 meter is OK,15 and 20 meter units have a really high SWR, nearly fullscale on the meter which reads 5:1 max. I figure this may be normal as the impedance of the shorten antenna should be getting pretty low at this point. 10 ohms or less would not sound to unreasonable to me for a 6ft long 20m antenna. I went to the Home Depot today and found some chimney sweeper brush handles . These are about 4 ft long each made of fiberglass and screw together. A few of these in the back of the truck will allow me to put together nearly any length antenna I need. Im thinking 40M may be a practical limit Dont worry I dont drive and ham at the same time. Worst problem I see with this is making an adapter for my ball mount. Will probably cannibalize one of the handles for its attaching hardware and weld a bolt to it to fit the ballmount Article: 223781 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: mobile loading coils Message-ID: References: Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 00:00:18 -0400 > I went to the Home Depot today and found some chimney sweeper brush handles >. These are about 4 ft long each made of fiberglass and screw together. A >few of these in the back of the truck will allow me to put together nearly >any length antenna I need. Im thinking 40M may be a practical limit Dont >worry I dont drive and ham at the same time. > how much were the sweeper handles? -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 223782 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ml Subject: Re: 3 beam comparason References: <6l9o42d16ee1fg4d0e21c5446hcimiim1l@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 09:46:16 GMT In article <6l9o42d16ee1fg4d0e21c5446hcimiim1l@4ax.com>, Buck wrote: > On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:00:22 GMT, ml wrote: > > >hi > > > >I was just wondering about how 3 antenna 'types' would compare, I can of > >course pull the spec's off the manuf home pages, but wonder what a real > >world interpratation would be and hope somone here might have either > >used them or have some simular experience to share > > > > > >a multiband log peridic and traditional multiband beam(w/or w/o traps) > >and a optibeam > > > >ofcourse there are pro's and con's of each but just wondering what > >type might be 'mostly best' overall if you tried to just the playing > >field as level as possible > > > > > >didn't want this to be about cost per say, just overall performance, but > >having said that, there sure is a big price swing on those types and I > >wonder , if anyone one of those antenna types have a overall > >tremendious benifit based soley on improving received signal strength to > >warrent one getting it vs say another and or a cheeper one > > > > > > > >tnx > > > You have asked a really broad question. A log periodic antenna will > outperform a smaller trap multiband two element beam, but probably not > a larger one, i.e. one with longer boom and many elements. You will > be as well to abide with the manufacturer's specifications until you > can pick out the specific antennas to compare. > > A multiband yagi with traps can out perform a trapless multiband yagi, > by being longer and using more elements. > > I don't know if there is a level playing field unless you can be more > specific. > > Well known amateur radio antenna manufacturers who have been around a > while aren't likely to try to fudge the numbers as too many hams are > quick to model the antennas and respond with not so kind words faster > than the marketing department can spread their lies. I would trust > them for the sake of picking the antennas and then ask around about > how they compare. > > I would be more wary of satisfied/dissatisfied users information than > manufacturers specs these days. Anyone can get lucky and because of > that love the antenna. For example, I have communicated three times > to Japan from Georgia. All three events were mobile. However, during > that same time, I had a tri-band beam up 50 feet and have never been > able to make a japanese contact with it. Therefore, one might > conclude that my mobile antenna outperforms my yagi. Of course it was > propagation and timing. > > I used a wonderful trap dipole for about three months. It worked > fantastically well. Then I put a fan-style dipole up to test it. It > outperformed the trap dipole by a great deal. Until I compared it, > the trap was great, now it isn't such a great antenna any more. > > This is what you are up against. Good luck. <<>>thanks for the responce buck, I can' make perhaps 2 comments 1. for testing pourposes naturally I would only compare antennas of 'simular' size etc etc as much as apples to apples as possible in other areas i should have mentioned that. Well aware that a smaller antenna typically wouldn't do as well as a much larger in the test world ...or even real world 2. as far as trusting the spec's I do, and mention that, but i wasn't trying to prove or disprove the manuf spec's simply wondering that if you had all 3 antennas mounted such that they didn't interfere w/each other and were close enough not to matter for the test and you had a 3 way switch and you averaged the results which antenna if any would show an overwelming ''win' tnx again Article: 223783 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: 40 meter beam for sale References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:02:15 GMT ml wrote: > In article , > "Ed" wrote: > > >>M Squared brand, model 40M3L. Several years old but never unboxed, stored >>inside, dusty but new in every way. Present price is $1092.00, I will take >>$650 for it. Pick-up only in Dallas, Texas. KV5I >>eh54@sbcglobal.net > > > so if it's never unboxed, how'd the antenna get dusty? ml, Have you ever been to Texas? 8-) 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223784 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <8La2g.29336$az4.15605@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <1Z43g.37917$az4.5435@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:07:57 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: > >> Gene Fuller wrote: >> >>> Cecil Moore wrote: >>> >>>> Actually, it's just the other way around. How is one ever >>>> going to understand what's really going on by superposing >>>> waves to the point where half the information is lost? >>> >>> >>> That question explains everything. It demonstrates conclusively that >>> you no understanding of superposition. >>> >> It also demonstrates that I can't proofread two sentences. > > > Take two PSK signals, superpose them through the same coax, > and see how much information is lost. Cecil, Strike two! More demonstration that you don't understand superposition. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223785 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "jimmiefender@bellsouth.net" References: Subject: Re: mobile loading coils Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:10:00 -0400 "Buck" wrote in message news:t9jo4219dvidni11gkp8gqjljnie2ct12h@4ax.com... > >> I went to the Home Depot today and found some chimney sweeper brush >> handles >>. These are about 4 ft long each made of fiberglass and screw together. A >>few of these in the back of the truck will allow me to put together nearly >>any length antenna I need. Im thinking 40M may be a practical limit Dont >>worry I dont drive and ham at the same time. >> > > how much were the sweeper handles? > > -- > 73 for now > Buck > N4PGW Dont know the price was not marked on them so I didnt bother finding out being it was late Sunday. I have since looked for them on the internet and have seen some really outrageous prices $50 for 5ft. Hope the HD price was not that bad. Article: 223786 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <8La2g.29336$az4.15605@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1Z43g.37917$az4.5435@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:38:00 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> Take two PSK signals, superpose them through the same coax, >> and see how much information is lost. > > Strike two! > More demonstration that you don't understand superposition. Actually, more demonstration that you shy away from technical discussions in favor of inuendo. One wonders why? Please feel free to enlighten me and others about how phase is conserved during the superposition process. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223787 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <8La2g.29336$az4.15605@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1Z43g.37917$az4.5435@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:09:00 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: > >> Cecil Moore wrote: >> >>> Take two PSK signals, superpose them through the same coax, >>> and see how much information is lost. >> >> >> Strike two! >> More demonstration that you don't understand superposition. > > > Actually, more demonstration that you shy away from technical > discussions in favor of inuendo. One wonders why? Please feel > free to enlighten me and others about how phase is conserved > during the superposition process. Cecil, There is nothing in the concept of superposition that will prevent you >from munging up something. I have no idea how you are planning to "superpose" two signals through the same coax, and therefore I have no idea what might happen to the phase. Go back and review what superposition means. I have stated it here before. It is a standard concept presented in many math, science, and technology textbooks. In simplified form, when superposition applies it says that the output from the combination of two inputs is the same as the sum of the outputs from each input taken one at a time. This is precisely what allows all of the various authors to say that one can consider a standing wave to be equivalent to two opposite direction traveling waves. This is purely a mathematical notion; superposition does not impact the physical reality at all. Superposition does not always apply. Only systems that are linear can be expected to exhibit superposition properties. If you choose to add a second input that was not there previously then the combined output will be different than the output from the original single input. I didn't know I shied away from technical discussions. I thought you were quoting me as one of your gurus when it was convenient. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223788 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dale Parfitt" References: <1145887444.414974.306250@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: DirecTV disk on 2.4 GHz Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:17:14 GMT > >> Hi Group, >> >> Over the last few years, I have picked up several of the DirectTV disk >> which are for 10GHz and most all have a diameter of about 15 to 20 >> inches. >> >> If I operate a 15 inch disk on 2.4GHz, what gain would I expect? >> And, how would this compare to a 20 inch disk? >> >> >> I am looking forward to your comments! >> >> de KJ4UO >> >I did not run the numbers, but my concern would be properly illuminating >the surface. Fortunately, the dish is offset fed so feed blockage will not >be a concern.. Go to the W1GHZ site to see appropriate high F/D feeds to >illuminate this surface. Dale W4OP Article: 223789 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: MFJ Tuner "Current Balun" conversion. Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 13:59:34 -0700 Message-ID: <124qf1p28ssj7e0@corp.supernews.com> References: <1145908745.710199.188670@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> n3ox.dan@gmail.com wrote: > The MFJ-962C "1.5kW" Versa Tuner III description claims to contain a > 4:1 current balun. I'm using that "balanced" output on my HF > almost-doublet (slightly unequal leg lengths) with fairly decent > results. > > The balun only has a single core. From what I understand, these "4:1 > current baluns" aren't. I don't know of any way to make a 4:1 current balun with a single one-hole core. I think it's possible with a two-hole (binocular) core if done right. > Furthermore, my antenna presents both higher and lower impedances than > 50 ohms depending on band. The "4:1" transformer probably has a 4:1 impedance transformation only when the load Z is near 200 + j0 ohms. Elsewhere, it'll have a different transformation ratio and also will add series and/or shunt impedance. > For convenience, I'd like to have a single port that I connect my > antenna to at all times. I've remoted this tuner and I don't want to > make more complicated switching arrangements. Is it worthwhile to > rewind the "4:1 current balun" as a 1:1 choke balun? Maybe somebody else can take a crack at this, but I think it's impossible to say. It depends on both the differential and common mode impedances seen at the feedline input as well as the tuner's matching range and efficiency. > It seems that it might be more appropriate for my application. I > should expect the core to work well for any HF transmission line > transformer I'd like to wind, as long as I don't saturate the thing, > right? I've seen a lot of tuner baluns made with powdered iron cores which don't give enough impedance for a decent balun of any kind. And the flux density will be much greater in a 4:1 voltage balun like you have now than in a 1:1 current balun. Type 43 ferrite is a good compromise choice for a 1:1 current balun. If you want to try using the core, put a bunch of turns on it and measure the impedance with an antenna analyzer if you have one. You'll need about 500 - 1000 ohms to make an effective balun for an approximately matched antenna. It might not be possible to get enough impedance for it to work well on all bands with a multiband antenna. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 223790 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Velocity Factor and resonant frequency Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:04:23 -0700 Message-ID: <124qfaq4636hq11@corp.supernews.com> References: Reg Edwards wrote: > . . . > For years, my approach to loading coils at HF has been to calculate > the inductance and capacitance per unit length of coil from DC > principles. And then calculate the velocity factor and Zo from > transmission line principles. Which gives results in the right ball > park according to what few experiments I have made with actual anennas > and helices on the 160 and 80 meter bands. How do you calculate the coil C to use in the transmission line formulas? Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 223791 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: MFJ Tuner "Current Balun" conversion. Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:21:08 -0700 Message-ID: <124qjqncqgspg51@corp.supernews.com> References: <1145908745.710199.188670@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <124qf1p28ssj7e0@corp.supernews.com> I also made a mistake in that I failed to qualify my statement. I meant only transmission line transformers. A conventionally connected transformer will act as a current balun, and any ratio can be made with a single core. However, it's difficult to get the extreme wide band qualities from one that you routinely get from a transmission line transformer. I don't agree with Trask that his design is a transmission line transformer despite the two holes, but it does seem to have very good bandwidth. Also, although he looked at the return loss with various output terminals grounded, I don't see any measurements showing how well it actually balances the output currents. But most conventional transformers do a good job of that, so this one probably does. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Larry Benko wrote: > Whoops, my mistake. A single binocular core which obviously has 2 > holes. Sorry > > Larry, W0QE > > > Larry Benko wrote: > >> Roy, >> >> Take a look at http://home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Trask4to1Balun.pdf >> for a supposed 4:1 current balun on a single hole torroid. I have no >> first hand experience with this design. >> >> 73, >> Larry, W0QE >> >> >> >> Roy Lewallen wrote: >> >> >>> I don't know of any way to make a 4:1 current balun with a single >>> one-hole core. I think it's possible with a two-hole (binocular) core >>> if done right. Article: 223792 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <1145494536.037425.26570@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <8La2g.29336$az4.15605@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1Z43g.37917$az4.5435@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <0ec3g.69194$H71.67806@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:23:56 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > In simplified form, when superposition applies it > says that the output from the combination of two inputs is the same as > the sum of the outputs from each input taken one at a time. The point is that phase is not preserved through the superposition process and as you have noted before, the phase information completely disappears from the superposed standing wave current. > This is > precisely what allows all of the various authors to say that one can > consider a standing wave to be equivalent to two opposite direction > traveling waves. This is purely a mathematical notion; superposition > does not impact the physical reality at all. It certainly impacts the physical reality of W7EL's phase measurements. If he measured the delay through the coil using the forward current, he would obtain valid results. If he measured the delay through the coil using the reflected current, he would obtain valid results. But the superposition of those two currents results in a signal with unchanging phase that cannot validly be used to determine the delay through a wire or a coil or anything else. > I thought you > were quoting me as one of your gurus when it was convenient. Yes, because you agree with me on most technical points. Your arguments with me are invariably personal, not technical. I am not aware of a single technical point upon which you and I disagree. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223793 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Velocity Factor and resonant frequency Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:54:29 -0700 Message-ID: <124qlp7fe41g87a@corp.supernews.com> References: <124qfaq4636hq11@corp.supernews.com> <6O2dnfHF5slNzdDZnZ2dnUVZ8tKdnZ2d@bt.com> I did a search quite some time ago and failed completely in finding the formula you describe, in Terman or any other "bible". The formula for the capacitance of an isolated sphere is common, but not a cylinder. The formula for a coaxial capacitor is common also, but the capacitance calculated from it approaches zero as the outer cylinder diameter gets infinite. Maybe you could take a look after the wine wears off, and see if you can locate the formula. By your earlier posting, it sounds like you've used it frequently, so it shouldn't be too hard to find. I'd appreciate it greatly if you would. And yes, I would make use of the formula -- I'm very curious about how well a coil can be simulated as a transmission line. The formula you use would be valid only in isolation, so capacitance to other wires, current carrying conductors, and so forth would have an appreciable effect. I showed not long ago that capacitance >from a base loading coil to ground has a very noticeable effect. Do you have a way of taking that into account also? Roy Lewallen, W7EL Reg Edwards wrote: >> How do you calculate the coil C to use in the transmission line > formulas? >> Roy Lewallen, W7EL > =================================== > > I'm surprised a person of your knowledge asked. > > Go to Terman's or other bibles, I'm sure you'll find it somewhere, and > find the formula to calculate the DC capacitance to its surroundings > of a cylinder of length L and diameter D. > > Then do the obvious and distribute the capacitance uniformly along its > length. > > The formula will very likely be found in the same chapter as the > inductance of a wire of given length and diameter. > > I have the capacitance formula I derived myself somewhere in my > ancient tattered notes but I can't remember which of the A to S > volumes it is in. > > I'm 3/4 ot the way down a bottle of French Red plonk. But Terman et > al should be be quite good enough for your purposes. > > And its just the principle of the thing which matters. It's simple > enough. I don't suppose you will make use of a formula if and when > you find one. > ---- > Reg. > > Article: 223794 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <42C1g.50484$_S7.869@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <8La2g.29336$az4.15605@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1Z43g.37917$az4.5435@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <0ec3g.69194$H71.67806@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: <8gd3g.39213$az4.1977@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:34:28 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: >> >> I thought you were quoting me as one of your gurus when it was >> convenient. > > > Yes, because you agree with me on most technical points. Your arguments > with me are invariably personal, not technical. I am not aware of a > single technical point upon which you and I disagree. Cecil, Be assured that I disagree with you on a great many technical points. 8-) 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 223795 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: Velocity Factor and resonant frequency References: <124qfaq4636hq11@corp.supernews.com> <6O2dnfHF5slNzdDZnZ2dnUVZ8tKdnZ2d@bt.com> <124qlp7fe41g87a@corp.supernews.com> <1145927357.742041.218170@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 03:06:13 GMT K7ITM wrote: > Hmmm...this is getting back really close to what I was trying to get at > when I posted the capacitance-of-a-wire-conundrum basenote a few weeks > ago that went nowhere. But since you've opened it up again, I'll toss > out some conundrum-ish things about it. > > Consider a wire that's perpendicular to a ground plane; obviously this > is interesting for a doublet configuration also, because of symmetry. > > I believe I can, without too much trouble, find the inductance of a > cylinder of current--current in the shallow skin depth of the wire, > which is different than the inductance at low frequencies--per unit > length. I believe it will be relatively unaffected by distance along > the wire. > > I believe I can, with a little more difficulty, find the (DC, as you > say) capacitance to the ground plane of a section of wire that's short, > in isolation from the rest of the wire (as if the rest of the wire > weren't there). But I believe that capacitance will be a much stronger > function of distance from that short section to the ground plane than > was the case for inductance. > > That leaves me with a velocity, sqrt((capacitance/unit > length)*(inductance/unit length)), that is not particularly constant > along the length of wire. I know that things really are like you say: > the velocity along that wire will be nearly the speed of light. > > So that tells me that something is wrong, and three things come > immediately to mind: either the inductance is more variable with > distance from the ground plane than I think it is, or the capacitance > is less variable, or the DC analysis does not hold when we are dealing > with things propagating at about the speed of light. > > In fact, there is a clue in the fact that for the whole wire, with one > end spaced a very small distance from the ground plane and the other > end far away, in a DC case the charge would be clustered near the > ground plane, with very little charge at the tip...but in a resonant > antenna, there is often a LOT of charge out near the end that's far > away from the ground plane. > > OK, that ought to be enough to get lots of conflicting responses going! > > Cheers, > Tom > What is the transmission mode in a single conductor transmission line? Does a coil support TEM waves, TM, or TE? Is there some type of cutoff frequency? How do you compute the phase velocity? How do you know the phase velocity of an electromagnetic wave on a coil of wire isn't greater than the speed of light in the helical direction? People like Reg and Cecil like to simplify things to the point of absurdity. Things that complicate the picture and disagree with their simplifications are promptly ignored. I hope no one reading these posts is under the false impression he's learning transmission line theory. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 223796 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Current across the antenna loading coil - from scratch References: <7NP1g.61974$F_3.13709@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <6eof42hvfpenppqf9pol710t904numbmkd@4ax.com> <4opf429805m5p7d5njceoeln4c4o8l892v@4ax.com> <1145641247.807811.178290@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <8La2g.29336$az4.15605@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1Z43g.37917$az4.5435@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <0ec3g.69194$H71.67806@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <8gd3g.39213$az4.1977@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 03:14:51 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Be assured that I disagree with you on a great many technical points. Name one. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 223797 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: MFJ Tuner "Current Balun" conversion. Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:35:28 -0700 Message-ID: <124r9oiqspf3527@corp.supernews.com> References: <1145908745.710199.188670@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> <124qf1p28ssj7e0@corp.supernews.com> <124qjqncqgspg51@corp.supernews.com> <1145929001.979317.115910@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1145933277.951517.23900@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com> n3ox.dan@gmail.com wrote: > . . . > Will a 4:1 current balun transform a random impedance Z1 to Z2 where > |Z2|=|Z1|/4? I know Roy pointed out that this won't work for a voltage > balun... No, it won't either. The amount of error with any balun type depends on the balun construction. You'll just have to build one and see what it does. It would be interesting to know what your antenna Z looks like on each band at the input to the existing balun. That is, what do you get when you connect your antenna to the balun output and the analyzer to the balun input? Roy Lewallen, W7EL