From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:42 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDgs18757 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:42 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDdJ12696 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDdJ12696@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:38 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0101E" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 76292 Lines: 1538 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:36:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: AFB resistance and GE crops In-Reply-To: <200101290415.XAA00867@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Please, could anyone who knows email me off-list whether their > is any scientific evidence to link the antibiotic resistance of > AFB to GE crops? Actually I think I may have started this rumour in a speculative piece I published here on BEE-L some time back when I was tying together several things I had read. As far as I know this notion is no more proven than a causative link between extender patties and SAFB. We tried to check it out, and one contributor checked his technical sources and reported that a gene jockey he knew said that he knew of no case where oxytet resistance was used as a marker for GMO crops. That, however, does not completely discount the possibility, but it is still a long shot, given we have few facts, and what we do have, do not prove the idea. Having said that, we often do not know when we have let a genie out of a bottle until much later. Of course, getting it back in is a whole other matter. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 05:56:10 -0600 Reply-To: webmaster@good-rich.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Good-Rich Subject: Re: Hive Painting In-Reply-To: <200101272040.PAA28769@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have switched to linseed oil exclusively for protecting our hives. Have a large plastic container with the oil in bottom, use 4" brush to spread and soak hive body inside and out, brush off excess and stack to dry with small wood spacers between boxes. Good to go in a day or two and bees don't seem to mind the smell. We know a beekeeper that has boxes 20 years old in good shape using linseed. Jake Good-Rich Apiaries www.good-rich.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:28:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: polystyrene hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sandy asks if there are polystyrene shallows being made. I know something about the subject of polystyrene hives and feel safe saying that none are make today and it is very unlikely that they will be made in the near future. The reason is simply that one of the major advantages of polystyrene, the weight savings, is just not worthwhile in the case of shallows. Wooden shallows are all ready very light. Do not hesitate to use wood shallows on top of polystyrene deeps or mediums...they work just fine. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:19:16 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Organic Cupric Salts Quote: "Hormetic effects were also reported in the tests" What are "Hormetic effects"? Is this a misspelling? PB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:08:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "George J. Biles" Subject: Geographical location Hey Everybody, When reading various messages of interest, I find myself trying to figure out where the writer lives. I do this because what is occuring or what "works" in one place is/does not neccesarily occurring/work in another. Knowing the general area where the reporter is reporting on would go a long way towards making their observations and comments relevant to other beekeepers (me), eh? George Biles (S/E PA) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:11:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Organic Cupric Salts Comments: To: Peter Borst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, All I know about the salts I read in the earlier posts. The salts sounded reasonable so I sent for information. I read the information and the testing although done in France involved up to 3,000 hives. U.S.D.A. never uses so many hives in their testing. Now I am trying to get additional information. Has any Bee-L beekeeper ever used the salts? Also in the acknowledgements the name Dr. Martha Gilliam (U.S.D.A.,Tucson,Arizona) is included for her KIND ADVICE AND REVISION OF THIS MANUSCRIPT. Come on researchers how about stepping forward and either give your opinion or tell us what the U.S.D.A. knows about varroa & salts. The word as spelled in the text is hormetic. Quote from *Varroa jacobsoni control by feeding honey bees with organic cupric salts Michel Bounias,jean-Francis Andre,Myriam Nectoux Avigon & Clermont-Ferrand -France and D.S. Popeskovic Belgrade-Yugoslavia quote: It is interesting to note that the lower gluconate dose yielded the higher increase in the number of brood combs. This represents a strengthening of the corresponding colonies,which might correspond to the improvement effects observed in the lifespan of the bees(Nectoux 1990),and therefore fall into the category of HORMETIC effects. This contrasts with the toxicity of pyrethroid compounds,such as esfenvalerate(What is this chemical ?) ,to the honey bees(Mayer et al. 1990). Taken together ,these data show that feeding with copper -containing syrups provides a median and long-term inhibition of parasite developement with no apparent damage to the bees and no toxic residues in honey,where the natural levels of copper are not exceeded . Indeed culpric treatments are long-term ones,and there effects cannot be compared to those of shock-treatments of synthetic acaricides. However, the absence of toxic residues remaining in honey represents a substantial advantage,since traces of of such pesticides remaining in honey are now found(Hemmerling,Augustinyak and Risto1991 ;Sancho et al.1991) Have the U.S.D.A. allready looked at the salts ? Sincerely, Bob Harrison > Quote: "Hormetic effects were also reported in the tests" > > What are "Hormetic effects"? Is this a misspelling? > > PB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:37:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Geographical location I agree with George Biles (S/E PA) (that means Silly/Entomolgist Public Annoyance doesn't it? :) that it would be more helpful if contributors to the list would let us know where they are located, as many do. It helps to understand the context they are speaking from. I also personally would like to have people indentify themselves by name rather than by initials or a handle, at least once in a while, because their name is not always in their email address. For example, I don't know who AL is, although I like his posts. His name may be Al, Albert, Absalom Lorenzo, or who knows what. Maybe some people feel more comfortable if we don't know who they are. They'd rather remain anonymous. I guess it's their right. I prefer reading a name and knowing where they're from. I kind of like the fact that we don't have to explain what our background or experience in beekeeping is because then our contributions can be judged on their content rather than a degree or title or a label. They can stand on their own merits and the readers can determine for themselves based on their own personal experience how worthwhile the contri- bution is. Someone with limited experience but a fresh way of looking at things might have valuable and important contributions to make that might otherwise be disregarded due to prejudice. I would like to express my heartfelt appreciation to all those who share their wisdom and experience about bees and beekeeping and help all of us learn and become more successful at beekeeping. Thanks. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas, U.S.A. (a small college town in south central Texas in post oak savannah--not a good place to produce honey, but a good place to produce queens--good pollen flow/light nectar flow) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:07:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Geographical location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All of my bees are within 10 statute miles of this location. Unless they are foraging in the other direction then they are 12 miles. Lat41.350718 Long -72.106245 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:34:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Field Subject: Re: why do beekeepers use bottom boards? I have to disagree with you, 99.9% the entrance is above the comb. Before I ever started keeping bees my father and I cut many a tree open to rob the honey and I don't recall ever opening a tree where the bees entrance was above the combs.In fact just the opposite as that is how we would decide where to start cutting. I have also removed many a swarm from buildings and they were always above their entrance. I am not saying your idea would not work only it would seem to me that the bees would build bur and bridge combs from the bottom of the frames to the floor which would make it difficult to work. For those of you who want to build your own IPM or screen bottom board, they have a real good plan at beesource.com, It has a removable board you can remove without disturbing the ladies. It works real well for me. I don't know about some one that has a real large operation like Allen. From reading his diary I'd say no. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:24:39 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Copper Gluconate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Bob Harrison asks about Copper Gluconate. I received data on this recently which I have posted on the Web Site of the Federation of Irish Beekeeping Associations at www.irishbeekeeping.ie in Adobe Acrobat format Click on Downloads and then click on Copper Gluconate. This information also shows the name and address of a supplier in the UK, who recently sent me a trial quantity of the hive salts. I too shall be most interested in comments. Sincerely Tom Barrett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:49:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Organic Cupric Salts Comments: To: Peter Borst In-Reply-To: <200101291722.MAA18949@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Quote: "Hormetic effects were also reported in the tests" > What are "Hormetic effects"? Is this a misspelling? Nope. The term apparently refers to beneficial effects from low doses of something generally regarded as harmful or deadly. Most references I found were in relation to low dose radiation. Here is a quote from a web page that came up within seconds after I initiated a web search using WebFerret, as recommended in a previous post. "Brucer observed that before World War I and continuing into 1930s about ten articles a year referred to a hormetic effect. After World War II, twenty articles per year mentioned a hormetic effect". Visit http://www.angelfire.com/mo/radioadaptive/parthasar.html for more. I have a ton more, but they don't relate to what we are discussing, merely use the term I searched: "Hormetic effects" Good search tools are de rigeur to keep up with discussions these days, and make digging up obscure terms and references a trivial exercise most of the time. While talking about searches, I highly recommend our own BEE-L search at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ I don't know if most readers are aware of how advanced and intuitive is. If not, be sure to read the search help. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/diary/ Back in business. Recent topics: feeders, wintering bee pictures, San Diego meeting, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 04:40:03 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Hormetic effect, etc. Greetings I would like to respectfully suggest that whenever anyone uses terms that the general reader is not familiar with, like "diffusion theory" and "hormetic effect" -- that they include a definition and/or references. I spent a good deal of time this afternoon trying to find out if the "hormetic effect" is a widely accepted scientific theory or not. I now have a list of names to contact -- you see, I'm still not done yet. Peter Borst Ithaca, NY U S A ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:37:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael Bassett Subject: Re: Fw: Pesticide Alert >allen wrote While all this is taking place in Europe, >you guessed it, the Canadian and U.S. governments are getting ready to >approve the use of these pesticieds on crops in the U.S.. You are >going to be reading a lot about this in 2001 - stay informed, stay >involved." > I guess it must allready be approved my stokes seed catalog lists two corn varieties on page 25 Jester II and Geronimo as being treated with Gaucho for good tolerance to stewarts wilt. they don't give any indication that its a systemic and since most people are used to the seeds being treated with a fungicide probably won't even notice. Mike Bassett central Mass and norther Conn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:36:39 +0200 Reply-To: melvillek@appletiser.co.za Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Melville Kayton Subject: Re: Hive Painting In-Reply-To: <200101291305.IAA08102@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in the Western Cape area in South Africa where almost all hives are constructed from pine wood which is relatively soft and the most cost effective material. I have been recommended to treat the hives by dipping them into a heated mixture of creosote : linseed oil @ 50:50 (hot enough so that a vapour starts appearing on the surface),for ten minutes. My question is, what wood is used to construct your hives and is it a hardwood? Is linseed oil enough or should I add the creosote? Untreated pine wouldn't last very long at all and I am aware that linseed oil adds strength to wood but does it protect it from wood boring insects and fungi? Regards Mel Kayton -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On Behalf Of Good-Rich Sent: 29 January 2001 01:56 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: Hive Painting We have switched to linseed oil exclusively for protecting our hives. Have a large plastic container with the oil in bottom, use 4" brush to spread and soak hive body inside and out, brush off excess and stack to dry with small ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:05:15 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kiera Waskey Subject: Re: Bee Foraging, Diffusion Theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Just a link and an interesting article to share with you all- http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/bees010129.html But when it comes to the bees, scientists still aren't sure how. The insects seem to defy all classical laws of aerodynamics. Now, using technology that has helped keep Boeing planes and NASA spacecraft soaring, researchers at the University of Washington hope to solve the mystery. "If you look at conventional aerodynamics, like an airplane, [the bees] shouldn't be able to fly," said Christina McGraw, the chemistry graduate student performing the experiments. Making Bee Maps The research uses a unique paint that glows under ultraviolet light at varying intensity according to air pressure. It will provide the first quantitative answers to how honey bees keep aloft, say the researchers, who come from zoology, chemistry and physics backgrounds. They plan to map the lift pressure across the bee wing during flight. That would show where the force comes from to get the bees out of the hive. It could also help in the creation of miniature flying robots called "micro-air vehicles." Previous research has shown that a bee's wings bend and slice through the air, carving figure 8s at a rate of 200 beats a second. The elaborate, curving strokes create vortexes and currents that allow maneuvering and hovering flight. But much of that research has been based on models or computer simulations. Scientists are excited about the possibility of having hard data to analyze. "The predictions are great, but without experimental data, they're just predictions," said Tom Daniel, a zoology professor involved in the experiment. Bees in the Fridge Another researcher, physicist John Wettlaufer, will share McGraw's data with researchers at the Courant Institute of Applied Mathematics at New York University to see how theories about insect flight hold up. For the experiment, McGraw knocks the bees out by sticking them in a refrigerator. She places a drop of fast-drying, bright red paint on each wing, and the next step is to use a digital camera to capture changes in lift pressure on the wings. The camera is still being built by a commercial company. One problem the scientists ran into was finding a mixture of pressure-sensitive paint that would work. Until now, the paint — developed by UW chemistry professors Martin Gouterman, Gamal Khalil and James Callis to study lift on airplanes and spacecraft — had only been used to study pressure on inanimate objects. Dozens of formulas were tested to find a mix that would let the bees keep flying. Appropriately, the successful mix combines luminescent compounds with beeswax. Richard Meryhew _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:54:53 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Hive Paint quote: My question is, what wood is used to construct your hives and is it a hardwood? In the US most hives are made of soft pine. Some use fir, cedar or even redwood. Redwood hive parts were very common in the west at one time. As far as painting is concerned, one thing that has been left out of all the comments is the fact that a high quality paint does more than just protect the wood from water, insects etc. It creates a hard surface over the softer wood that resists physical damage (for example, from being knocked about in a truck, etc.). Nothing is more vulnerable than unpainted soft wood. Hard wood for hives would be too expensive and too heavy. Furthermore, a hive or super with a couple of coats of good quality paint looks better and is easier to clean. I thought the suggestion of buying odd colored lots from the paint store (at a discounted price) was great. Peter Borst Ithaca NY U S A ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:23:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barta, Adrian DATCP" Subject: Re: hive paint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Let me share this idea which solved two problems for me at once: using both white primer and white paint, I couldn't tell at a glance which boxes had which coat in my dimly-lit basement, nor could I keep track of the age of boxes once they were in the apiary. My solution--I now paint boxes the queen color for the year I make them. Last year's boxes are blue, this year's are grey (see problem one), next year's will be yellow. I know a beekeeper who has painted his hives random bright colors, baby-block bright, but his hives are behind his barn. Mine are in outyards, so I've kept the colors subdued; still, I like the mix of colors in the apiary. If it helps reduce drifting, all the better. Adrian Barta Madison, WI, US ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:48:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Bee Foraging, Diffusion Theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jerry Bromenshenk asked: > A mathematical modeler contends that bee foraging flights can be >modeled by diffusion theory. Comments? As I understand matters, diffusion theory would apply only in a situation where there is no air movement. In Nature, though, air moves almost constantly and strongly influences where bees might forage. Unfortunately, bee researchers have largely ignored the importance of wind in foraging behavior this last half century, a factor the mathematician should bring into consideration. As a start, he can access items #24, 25, and 26 on the web site: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm (Also found as "Odors, Wind, and Colony Foraging" in the 1998 Oct, Nov, and Dec issues of the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL.) Early on, von Frisch also concluded that something such as diffusion theory would not apply. One can find that article of his article in item 1B on the above web site. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "Aesthetic judgments do not arbitrate scientific discourse.... * Ultimately, theories are judged by how they fare when faced * with cold, hard, experimental facts." * Brian Greene, 1999 * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:43:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Wax Filtering Tricks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, My keyboard has been quiet for a while but I am still reading and enjoying all the posts to the list. I have been a member for the past 7 years. To any new members: Stick around you will surely learn a lot, and don't forget to search the archives. They are filled with a wealth of information on just about any topic. I process a fair amount of beeswax to be used for candles, ornaments, and skin cream. I melt well drained cappings in a solar wax melter (weather permitting) or a Kelly wax melter. Damaged or burr comb and some "older" frames are also melted down in the solar wax melter. These are first placed in a nylon bag which will filter out some of the slumgum. I don't try and melt down old brood comb. I just use them for fire starters. Some will argue this is a waste of wax, but with all the chemicals that have been used in beekeeping for the past 10 years; I just don't want it. After this first pass the wax is somewhat clean but still may contain some honey and other debris and needs filtering. There are many different ways of filtering and preparing beeswax. They all require heating the beeswax so please be careful. Hot splashing wax will stick to your skin and cause a nasty burn or could come in contact with your source of heat and cause a fire. It is not necessary to get the wax very hot. You just want to melt it. Some will filter the liquid wax through cotton cloth (old tee-shirt material). This probably works for small amounts but it maybe awkward and I don't have that many old tee-shirts. A fellow beekeeper and good friend (Bill Mondjack, Whitehall, PA) put me on to a great method. From a restaurant equipment supply store I purchased a grease filter kit. It consists of a metal cone that holds disposable cone shaped filters. It is made to fit over container so it frees up your hands. It will filter out the smallest particles however hot honey will pass through. The honey is in the bottom of you melter along with most of the slum gum so I suggest using a ladle to take the wax from the top to pour through the filter. Depending on how dirty the wax is to begin with the filter will clog with debris. I just let it cool and then remove any leftover unfiltered wax and throw it back into the melter. This will also happen if you go too slow and the wax cools on the filter. If there is a lot of wax in the filter, by placing it in the melter you will be able to recover much of it. I save the old dirty filters, they also make good firestarters. The clean wax is then poured into bread loaf pans to cool. I am left with very clean wax bricks that are easy to handle. The filter is a relative inexpensive and quick way of filtering small batches (10 to 20 lbs.) and works well in our system. Good luck with the upcoming season, and to our friends on the southern side of the big blue ball, I hope you supers are overflowing. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:22:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Resources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom mentioned in a recent Bee Culture article http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/digital/2001/column29.htm at http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/digital/, the availability of the ARS Bee Bibliography online. BEE-L members may wish to visit that ARS site at http://www.barc.usda.gov/psi/brl/Bibliography.htm when preparing questions for this list. The search lists 1172 hits for 'foulbrood'. None for 'hormetic'. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:38:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bee Foraging, Diffusion Theory In-Reply-To: <200101301604.LAA25929@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As I understand matters, diffusion theory would apply only in a > situation where there is no air movement... a factor the > mathematician should bring into consideration. Well, I am still waiting for Jerry to further illuminate what was meant by the question he asked. Until we know what specific statement of diffusion theory is being suggested, responses must necessarily be very general and somewhat speculative. But, making assumptions, I would guess that any diffusion theory would necessarily have to have terms for dealing with currents or analogous factors such as heat source, light direction, etc.. >From what I know about math is that there are often terms in equations that are assumed to be zero in many cases and left out of simple statements, but are available in special cases such as where wind, magnetism, gravity, or analogous factors are significant. Sometimes such terms are discovered and added after the original work is done and the familiar formula is found to be a special case or approximation to a more general and comprehensive formula. > Early on, von Frisch also concluded that something such as > diffusion theory would not apply. Are we now finally in agreement with von Frisch? allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:06:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: updated pages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! We are always intrigued on various beekeeping techniques of the early centuries(1800's-1900's). Below is the link on the subjects listed. Articles written-1920. 1)How to Remove Bees from Trees 2)How to Produce Extracted Honey 3)How to Control Wax Worms http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/contentpages/tips.html More articles will bee listed as time allows. Regards, Norma Herb/Norma Bee Holly-B Apiary PO Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 "an educated consumer is YOUR best customer" The Beekeeper's Home on the Internet http://www.mainebee.com Stony Critters http://www.stonycritters.com Betty's Driftwood Santa Site http://pages.ivillage.com/santasite/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:43:58 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Hive painting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Melville Kayton wrote > I have been recommended to treat the hives by dipping > them into a heated mixture of creosote : linseed oil @ 50:50 (hot enough so > that a vapour starts appearing on the surface),for ten minutes. My question > is, what wood is used to construct your hives and is it a hardwood? Is > linseed oil enough or should I add the creosote? Untreated pine wouldn't > last very long at all and I am aware that linseed oil adds strength to wood > but does it protect it from wood boring insects and fungi? Our experience here in Australia is that linseed oil is not sufficient to protect your bee boxes against decay (rot) or borers. This is because we have a high decay hazard because of the temperature and humidity factors. We use pine for our bee boxes. It is either the native hoop pine Aracuaria cunninghammi) or the exotic radiate pine ( Pinus radiata). These grown as plantation timbers in Australia. We use copper naphthenate at a concentration of 1% copper to soak our boxes in for a minimum of 8 hours. These have to be dried for about 10-14 days before they are painted. The boxes are usually soaked in the flat before they are assembled. Some have tried wax dipping with paraffin and micro crystalline waxes as a preservative measure but it does not work in our climate. I have seen boxes dipped in creosote and they seem to have lasted. However they are messy to handle and the creosote can burn your hands. The creosote used was the old type and not the newer formulation. For convenience and results, I would suggest you use copper naphthenate. Do not use it as a higher concentration than 1% copper otherwise the copper will concentrate on the outside of the box and the paint will not stick to it. We use mineral turpentine to breakdown the copper naphthenate from the 5% concentration we buy it in. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:10:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: Bee Foraging, Diffusion Theory All this mathematical modeling of foraging behaviour is a little deep for me. I'm with Jerry Brown who said, "I see the world in very fluid, contradictory, emerging, interconnected terms, and with that kind of circuitry I just don't feel the need to say what is going to happen or will not happen." Maybe Jerry Bromenshenk now feels the same way because like Jerry Brown he seems to have disappeared into the ether. Ted - Lat.52N, Long. 122 West, elevation 2100 ft., planet earth. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:19:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bee Foraging, Diffusion Theory Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In his comments about Bromenshenk's request for information about the feasibility of diffusion theory, Allen Dick appended the following (as an aside to my earlier comment about diffusion theory): My statement: >> Early on, von Frisch also concluded that something such as >> diffusion theory would not apply. Allen then asked: >Are we now finally in agreement with von Frisch? ********** Absolutely! --- Depending on which hypothesis we are considering. That is, I wholeheartedly agree with von Frisch's early odor-search hypothesis as to how recruited bees locate food sources. Again, one can find his 1930s publication (the pertinent hypothesis of his that I agree with) in Item #1B on the following web site: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm One can find therein, in von Frisch's own words, the following statements (not in sequence): 1) "As a matter of fact, a few minutes after the commencement of the dance, new bees appeared at the same time at all the little dishes to the north and south, to the west and east. They did not know where the food was." 2) "And I put some other dishes farther and farther away in the meadow, observing whether they would be found or not. The farther they were, the longer time it took till they were found by the bees sent out by the dance. In the last experiment they were found after 4 hours in a meadow a full kilometer from the hive..." 3) "The dancing bee can communicate a message about all kinds of scented flowers by means of the scent adhering to its body." 4) "I succeeded with all kinds of flowers with the exception of flowers without any scent." That is, I feel that von Frisch was on the right track in the late 1930s --- until he (and others) became seduced by the exotic notion of bee "language," a notion that is not supported by results of his earlier research or results of our extensive research of the past few decades (as covered in dozens of other publications found on that web site). In short, one gets no recruitment without odor. Every experiment that purports to prove bee "language" has necessarily used odor (intentional or otherwise). Hence, one can never conclude that bees used dance maneuver information rather than odor. That's when we employ Occam's razor (why accept a complicated explanation when a simple one will suffice). One can find a full summary of the above information in Item #15 on that web site. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "Aesthetic judgments do not arbitrate scientific discourse.... * Ultimately, theories are judged by how they fare when faced * with cold, hard, experimental facts." * Brian Greene, 1999 * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:29:25 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Bees and Areodynamics (was "Bee Foraging, Diffusion") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One member noted: > > But when it comes to the bees, scientists still aren't sure how. The > insects seem to defy all classical laws of aerodynamics. > Now, using technology that has helped keep Boeing planes and NASA > spacecraft soaring, researchers at the University of Washington hope to > solve the mystery. The article is, of course, another "urban-legend", and a long-standing misconception that has no basis in fact. Rather than repeating the obvious, I provide a link to the usual de-bunking facts: The AP, ABC News, and the University of Washington should all be very embarassed at their ignorance and their inability to even do a simple web search on with the words "bee" and "fly". Harrumph!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bee Foraging, Diffusion Theory **NOT** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a word, **NOT**. Intelligent creatures seeking specific items, such as odors and colors, or returning to known sources of water, nectar, and pollen that they have visited before, or even responding to bee dance (or whatever bee-to-bee communication, if any, might be used by bees, if it is) information are not even roughly approximated by any equation. Since many experiments have shown that bees can focus their foragers on an even slightly more concentrated nectar source in less than an hour (see the book "The Wisdom of The Hive"), there is not much chance of using statistics to predict much of anything here. This sort of "modeling" with very inappropriate models is common among mathematicians. Good math guys have little contact or expertise with any reality with less than 11 dimensions. A story about mathematicians: Two mathematicians meet at a conference, and one mentions that he spent 3 days on the train traveling to the meeting. The other asks "why did you not fly?" The non-flyer explains that he did a statistical job for the FAA, and once he saw the odds of a bomb being on a plane, he could never fly. The next year, the two meet again, so the non-flyer was asked about his train ride. "Oh, I flew" he said. "But I thought that you were afraid of the odds of a bomb on the plane!" said his friend. "Oh, yes, I was. But then I looked at the statistics again, and realized that the odds of TWO bombs on a plane were nearly impossible. So now, when I fly, I simply bring my own bomb!" Disclaimer - I am a physicist, and physicists make fun of all fields, including their own. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:13:52 +0200 Reply-To: melvillek@appletiser.co.za Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Melville Kayton Subject: Re: Hive Painting In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I either was told or read that creosote was not good for the bees. How do you find it"? Jake I haven't used it yet. I am very new at beekeeping, have 20 untreated assembled hives as well as about 40 neglected colonies and am also a bit worried about the possible harshness of creosote. Painting the hives different colours is not an option in my case as vandalism is a huge concern all over South Africa and I would like to draw as little attention to the hives as possible. I will consider copper naphthenate as recommended by T & M Weatherhead. Regards Mel Kayton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:14:33 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Hormesis A little background on hormesis, if anyone wants to know: Basically, it comes from the idea that small doses of radiation may have *beneficial* effects not predicted by science and not predicted by linear extrapolation back from lethal doses to zero. (You get instead of a line, a curve with benefit at low doses and death at high). The effect was then supposedly observed with other known poisons and a hypothesis arose that *any* poison could have a stimulating, beneficial effect. From there, it splinters off into folk cures and also, to reputable research into the effect of *very* low doses of toxins. Some people are afraid that the concept will erode environmental laws that use the linear model to determine safety and risk factors. It's a real can o' worms -- like genetic engineering. Everyone has reams of data and experts to back them up. (What follows are various paragraphs from web sites, cited below each paragraph. Especially read the last one...) The (BELLE) Advisory Committee is committed to the enhanced understanding of low-dose responses of all types, whether of an expected nature (e.g., linear, sublinear) or of a so-called paradoxical nature. Paradoxical dose-response relationships might include U-shaped dose-response curves, hormesis, and, in some restrictive sense, biphasic dose-response curves. Although there are many scattered reports of such paradoxical responses in the biomedical literature, these have not generally been rigorously assessed, nor have the underlying mechanisms been adequately identified. Laboratory and regulatory scientists have tended to dismiss these paradoxical responses as anomalies inconsistent with conventional scientific paradigms. http://www.belleonline.com/index.htmi ------------------------------------- Since the first demonstrations of hormesis in the late 1800's (cf. Stebbing, 1982), a considerable body of literature had led to its acceptance as a generally recognized effect of low doses of toxic compounds, some of which are carcinogenic (Calabrese and Baldwin, 1997). Stebbing defines hormesis as the stimulatory effects caused by low levels of toxic agents. The majority of the work cited in support of this definition related to growth stimulation in plants and bacteria. http://www.belleonline.com/4_6-3.htmi ------------------------------------- The first report on hormetic effects in algae appeared more than 100 years ago. More recently published hormetic effects include A-bomb survivors' apparent lower-than-normal incidence of leukemia and their greater longevity. Although more than 2000 scientific papers had been published on radiation hormesis, the phenomenon was forgotten after World War II and was ignored by the radiation-protection establishment. http://cnts.wpi.edu/RSH/docs/JA99_Radrisk.htm ------------------------------------- The occurrence of dual effects (both stimulatory and inhibitory) caused by the same agent when used at different doses or for different times has been described in various experimental systems and has been often called "hormoligosis", or "hormesis" (12-16). In 1960 Townsend and Luckey (13) surveyed the field of classic medical pharmacology for examples of hormetic effects and published a list of 100 substances known to be capable of causing an inhibition at high concentrations and stimulation at low concentrations. In general, such cases fell into three categories, those involving muscular response, those involving respiration, and those involving transmission of nerve impulses. http://chimclin.univr.it/omc/Bellavite/Publications/MEDHIP.html ------------------------------------- The proponents of "hormesis" suggest that ionizing radiation improves the general health. The leading hormetic is Thomas Luckey, who proposes in his 1991 book (p.236): "The theme of future research and practice in radiation safety should be supplementation of background radiation for health." Luckey worries about "radiation deficiency syndrome," and suggests that "optimum exposures" appear to be about 10 rads per year (p.229, 233). Fetal Dose -- Percent Increase in Rate of Mental Retardation in Children 4 rads (2.63 / 2.28) = 1.15 15 % increase 10 rads (3.13 / 2.28) = 1.37 37 % increase (at the optimum "hormetic" dose) 15.4 rads (3.77 / 2.28) = 1.65 65 % increase 23.0 rads (4.75 / 2.28) = 2.08 2.08-fold increase 30.8 rads (6.00 / 2.28) = 2.63 2.63-fold increase 46.2 rads (9.12 / 2.28) = 4.00 4-fold increase 61.5 rads (13.36 / 2.28) = 5.86 5.86-fold increase 72.0 rads (16.85 / 2.28) = 7.39 7.39-fold increase http://www.ratical.com/radiation/CNR/No1EscapesP.html ------------------------------------- posted by Peter Borst Ithaca NY U S A ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:39:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro P Rodriguez" Subject: [Fwd: Hormesis] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D3FE56914D18C375083AEBE9" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D3FE56914D18C375083AEBE9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------D3FE56914D18C375083AEBE9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3A781472.373D31E0@pilot.infi.net> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:34:42 -0500 From: "Dr. Pedro P Rodriguez" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Hormesis References: <200101311214.HAA06497@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning fellow beekeepers. I have watched (and read) with zeal the continuous outpouring on the use of copper salts for the treatment of bee mites. It is admirable to pursue as many ways to combat these as one might possibly conceive, but there has to be a reasoned, carefully planed mode of action to prevent damage to the bees and possible injury to consumers of honey. Copper per se is an essential element for the metabolism of higher animals. I have yet to see reports regarding how copper interacts with the metabolism of honey bees, especially since their anatomy and metabolism is different from them. Even though large dosages of copper have been demonstrated not to be toxic to some animals, metallic elements (including copper) administered in small doses have a tendency to accumulate and eventually become toxic to those subjected to those small dosages. I imagine, that it is possible that such small dosages will not have any effect on honey bees because of their relative short life span. However, I am seriously concerned about the effects that these small (hormetic) dosages will do to human beings (especially children and the elderly) who consume honey with copper residues that may accrue in honey from such "hormetic" treatments. I believe that there is a real need to consider the risk involved at least until accredited laboratory testing is conducted to ascertain that there are no risks involved in consuming honey from colonies treated with any form of copper salts. Are there any such studies? If so, the public needs to know. Sincerely. Dr. Pedro Pablo Rodriguez Virginia Beach, Va --------------D3FE56914D18C375083AEBE9-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 06:57:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hormesis] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Even though large dosages of copper have been demonstrated not to be toxic to some animals, metallic elements (including copper) administered in small doses have a tendency to accumulate and eventually become toxic to those subjected to those small dosages. > I imagine, that it is possible that such small dosages will not have any effect on honey bees because of their relative short life span... I have wondered about this, too. I wonder if Dr. Jerry B. has any info on this. I recall he did determine that fluorides build up in bees and have deleterious effects over time. How about copper? Also we tend to lump all the ionic forms of trace metal nutrients together, but copper metabolism in humans depends on the form in which it is administered. Although some copper is necessary in human diets, an excess can reduce the amount of essential zinc in the body. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:08:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Bee Foraging, Diffusion Theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jerry and Everyone, ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us >>> jjbmail@selway.umt.edu 01/27/01 12:08AM >>> wrote: Hi: A mathematical modeler contends that bee foraging flights can be modeled by diffusion theory. Comments? This has provoked some interesting discussion but my comment is that it depends on the time frame. Over time the colony will work all or nearly all floral resources within the foraging range of the hive and so if the time frame is long enough the result will appear to be very similar to diffusion. At shorter time scales though it would tend to break down as colonies exploit the sources they determine to be "best" in that foraging area during that time period. So the question: Are you interested in foraging averaged over an entire season or some much shorter time period such as a week or a day? FWIW blane ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:33:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bee Foraging, Diffusion Theory In-Reply-To: <200101301639.LAA28049@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:38 AM 1/30/01 -0700, you wrote: I haven't disappeared into the ethers, but I have been finishing a 200+ page report that's due today. Thanks for the input about bees and diffusion theory. I was deliberately vague about what was meant by diffusion theory, as I suspect was our mathematician. So as to not bias the discussion with my viewpoint, I tossed out his assertation and waited to see if others picked up on anything that I missed. Our mathematician is used to modeling signals from radar, cell phones, etc. He contends that he can do the same for bees. He also argues that the probability of a bee detecting something (i.e., a flower, feeder, etc.) is a function of the number of bees leaving and entering the hive (corrected for those who linger at the hive entrance rather than foraging). Again, I don't necessarily agree - and I have often repeated my bias with respect to this probability of detection idea. > >Well, I am still waiting for Jerry to further illuminate what was meant by the >question he asked. Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/more http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:21:37 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Diffusion quote: He also argues that the probability of a bee detecting something (i.e., a flower, feeder, etc.) is a function of the number of bees leaving and entering the hive (corrected for those who linger at the hive entrance rather than foraging). response: Well that only leaves out a few things, like odor, color, wind, obstacles, the bees experience with the area, the dance communication, about everything that bees use to maintain a squadron of foragers. Sure, diffusion could account for the behavior of searching bees new to an area, but after a couple of hours, they're aren't new anymore. You could model a human search for a sandwich shop in a new city the same way, except that it would be affected by any number of other factors such as checking the phone book. Peter Ithaca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:22:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hormesis] In-Reply-To: <200101311404.JAA08781@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:57 AM 1/31/01 -0700, you wrote: >>... large dosages of copper have been demonstrated not to be >toxic to some animals, metallic elements (including copper) ... eventually become toxic ... to those small dosages. >> I imagine ... small dosages will not have any >effect on honey bees because of ... short life span... > >I wonder if Dr. Jerry B. has any info> Whew! That's a very complex subject: 1. You can't compare copper metabolism in mammals with insects with respect to many of the issues raised. In insects, copper is the oxygen transport system, not iron. So, in a sense, insects don't have iron poor blood. They need copper and to some extent can regulate the amount in their bodies. 2. Copper is an inorganic element, one of a group of elements that we classify as metals. Insects do accumulate many metals (such as arsenic, lead, etc.), and at least for bees, the doses can exceed toxic levels from either short-term acute exposure or long-term chronic (low level) exposure - despite the short life span. 3. Most of the original insecticides (prior to the advent of DDT in WW II, the end of which marks the start of the proliferation, production, and use of organic-based insecticides) were inorganic-based. Sulfur, arsenic, lead, etc. Many were combined with copper (e.g. copper arsenate). To this day, some of the wood preservatives for posts, deck timbers, etc. are comprised of inorganic chemicals (check the tags on green colored timbers in your local building center - it may be a dye, or it may be a copper compound). On the other hand, the black railroad ties are usually impregnated with creosote or pentachlorophenol (organic compounds) 4. Metals, especially the ones that we call heavy metals (lead is a heavy metal), can and do kill bees - whether in an insecticide or from another source, such as an industrial pollutant. 5. Early beekeepers were surprised when inorganic (usually metal-based) insecticides killed bees in addition to killing the insects chomping on leaves. 6. Early beekeepers later found that insecticides were not the only source of metals in exposure concentrations high enough to kill bees. 7. The advent of organic insecticides, which tend to be much more toxic over a short period of time than the inorganics, took the attention away from these other chemicals. But that doesn't mean that the problem of exposure and potential for bee kills from inorganics doesn't still exist -- with the caveats: that we don't use as many or as much of the metal-based insecticides anymore (but I should note that a common defoliant used on cotton contains arsenic), and wholesale releases of metals into the atmosphere by industries, has been reduced, but not eliminated. 8. Remember also that not all inorganic insecticides are composed of metals - sulfur was and is a common component. 9. All of these elements vary in toxicity depending on the form, route and duration of exposure, etc. 10. Now, back to copper. In Europe, beekeepers in the early 1900's tried to offset industrial poisoning by feeding bees copper in water. Some also argued that gradually moving colonies into the area next to a source such as a smelter would help offset kills (in other words, they thought that the bees developed some resistance from gradual exposure) We have found that elevated levels of copper in the environment surrounding a beehive does not necessarily result in elevated levels of copper in bees - they probably excrete some of the excess. And the same can be said for zinc. Note however, that both copper and zinc are essential elements, vital to the overall health of the bee. On occasion, we have seen elevated levels of zinc in bees in areas where environmental zinc levels are high. Whether zinc levels tend to accumulate above certain thresholds seems to depend on what else is in the area around the beehive. If zinc is the only elevated element (or, if there is no exposure to elements known to be harmful to bees), then we see accumulation in bees. In areas where the air, soils, etc. are elevated in chemicals such as arsenic, lead, and copper (such as around many smelters), we often see REDUCED LEVELS of COPPER AND ZINC, even if these two elements are also elevated in the surroundings. The explanation may lie with a protein called metallothionein. Richard Cronn, one of my students, did his M.S. thesis on this. This protein appears in a variety of organisms, from plants to insects to mammals to humans. It appears to be important to animals in regulating some of the divalent elements and binds copper, zinc, and cadmium. Richard demonstrated that bees can produce this protein, that exposure to cadmium increases its production in a bee, and that the protein sequesters (binds) preferentially with cadmium. We and others suspect that this affords some protection from cadmium poisoning. In those bees with elevated concentrations of metallothionein, we often see reduced levels of copper and zinc. Its probable that all three interact physiologically within the bee. So, we seldom see elevated levels of copper, we sometimes see elevated levels of zinc; and in highly polluted areas, we see reduced levels of copper and zinc in bees (which may point to a deficiency). So, we have bees with copper poor blood. So, whether copper or zinc is toxic to bees is a complex issue - and I'd say that like any essential element, too little and you are in trouble, some excess can be tolerated, too much and its going to be harmful. Finally, I can't say the same for arsenic, lead, cadmium, etc. which, if the initial exposure doesn't kill the bees outright, will accumulate and eventually can kill off entire hives and apiaries - all depending on exposure levels, duration, forms, etc. AND WEATHER -- usually exposure levels to bees in industrial areas are reduced during wet weather (assuming that the exposure routes are mainly from air, dust, soils) and increase during dry periods when these elements tend to disperse in the air or be re-entrained among or on dust particles AND pollen. In general, exposure to these substances from plants is more a factor of what is deposited on the surface of the plant or pollen, and less of a factor of what is taken up by the plant or in the nectar (but there are exceptions to this general rule of thumb). Again, Whew!!! This is a very superficial coverage of this topic. Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:37:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bee Foraging, Diffusion Theory Comments: cc: ljfries@west.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jerry Bromenshenk clarified his earlier request, as follows: > Our mathematician is used to modeling signals from radar, cell >phones, etc. He contends that he can do the same for bees. He also argues >that the probability of a bee detecting something (i.e., a flower, feeder, >etc.) is a function of the number of bees leaving and entering the hive >(corrected for those who linger at the hive entrance rather than foraging). It would appear that the mathematician has something to work with there. The number of bees searching for a food source in the field actually has a great deal to do with the success of each searching bee. For an example, one can peruse the results in the following study. 1973 Friesen, L. The search dynamics of recruited honey bees, Apis mellifera ligustica Spinola. Biol. Bull. 144:107-131. I have an extra copy to mail, if someone should be interested. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "Aesthetic judgments do not arbitrate scientific discourse.... * Ultimately, theories are judged by how they fare when faced * with cold, hard, experimental facts." * Brian Greene, 1999 * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:57:17 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Hormesis Jerry Thanks for the extremely thorough discussion of copper and bees. One question remains: as an informed scientist, what do you think about hormesis? Also, what is your take on this advertisement for copper gluconate: With Happy Hive Salts the pure image of honey can remain intact. Not only are the salts guaranteed safe and reliable they also extend the foraging life of the honeybees due to `hormesis` protecting them from pesticides and leading to a better honey crop .No other Varroa treatment does this. Peter Borst Ithaca NY USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:58:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bee Foraging, Diffusion Theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Jerry (and others), > I was deliberately vague about what was meant by > diffusion theory, as I suspect was our mathematician. Well that explains a bit. I had a feeling we were being "baited", the question seemed too open ended and ill-defined for a science guy of your reputation. The answer seemed to me, "obviously bees' forage can't be defined by difusion theory, as there is an impacting force, a direction and purpose to bee forage that negates simple difusion models". The point Blane made, that an extended time frame would make forage patterns more closely approximate a difusion patter was something I had not considered. However, I think that point boils down to a statement like, "Over time plant bloom may approximate a difusion pattern." Bee forage however remains a directed activity with a directed purpose. I think your math buddy is improperly applying a model to a phenominon where it can't be applied. Signals from radar, cell phones, etc. are electromagnetic waves, difusion theories apply. Bee forage is directed and purposful. Even if a lengthy time parameter is a factor, difusion models seem inappropriate. Aaron Morris - IMHO stating the obvious. Still thinking math (when properly applied) rules! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:22:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hormesis] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dr. Rodriguez & all, I am only trying to learn about the salts myself but have some experience and knowledge of copper & animals. Dr. Rodriguez wrote: I have watched (and read) with zeal the continuous outpouring on the use of copper salts for the treatment of bee mites. It is admirable to pursue as many ways to combat these as one might possibly conceive, but there has to be a reasoned, carefully planed mode of action to prevent damage to the bees and possible injury to consumers of honey. According to the study which lasted three years and involved up to 3,000 production hives there were no amounts of salts in the honey removed from those hives(or so the publiashed text says). Copper per se is an essential element for the metabolism of higher animals. I have yet to see reports regarding how copper interacts with the metabolism of honey bees, especially since their anatomy and metabolism is different from them. Even though large dosages of copper have been demonstrated not to be toxic to some animals, metallic elements (including copper) administered in small doses have a tendency to accumulate and eventually become toxic to those subjected to those small dosages. The text explains what you have just said in the information sent by the seller of the salts and agrees with you.. > I imagine, that it is possible that such small dosages will not have any effect on honey bees because of their relative short life span. However, I am seriously concerned about the effects that these small (hormetic) dosages will do to human beings (especially children and the elderly) who consume honey with copper residues that may accrue in honey from such "hormetic" treatments. With all due respect Dr. Rodriguez I believe you are not understanding the meaning of the word "hormetic" as used in the text. Hormetic as used in the text is used to describe a increase in brood rearing and longevity in the bees involved in the test. If true then it would seem that the copper is a good thing at those doses for the bees. I am not defending the study only stating what the text sent to me implies. Control of varroa is what the study was about and enough *hormetic* effects were noted between the bees in the tests and the controls to state hormetic effects. Copper was found to be benificial in stopping disease in some farm animals by the U.S.D.A.. I believe from memory Turkeys were getting brain anurisims and copper salts treatments stopped the problem. I also have raised salt water fish for over 30 years as a hobby. I have worked in a large salt water fish store in Kansas City , Missouri part time to learn more about the subject years ago when I lived in K.C. and kept bees in the country.. Copper salts are commonly used to treat many diseases and parasites of salt water fish. Just enough copper to kill the parasite but not the fish. Salt water fish are 300 times more sensitive to contaminated water than fresh water fish. Copper salts are the chemical of choice. I used to clear parasites from Salt water fish by giving them a fresh water bath. I would place the fish in a exact same water as they came from only without the salt. Leave two minutes and the parasites would exploud of the fish and die. Longer than two minutes would kill the fish. Tip for my fellow salt water friends which still wonder why I dropped out of the Marine fish picture. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri > > > --------------D3FE56914D18C375083AEBE9--