From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:56 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8EDA24ADC7 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03Fjr9h008596 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03Fjr9h008596@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:53 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0108B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 165741 Lines: 3260 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:54:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Bee photography In-Reply-To: <200108071422.f77EMv816771@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin, What type of film are you using to expect it to last 200 years? We've seen degradation and color changes in most color films after 20-30 years (longer for some, less for others), depending on storage conditions. Slides also change over time. B&W is projected to last 75 or so, depending on silver content, storage, etc... I'm not aware of any films claiming 200 year lifespans. I doubt any of us expect CD's to be around in 200 years (or to be here to confirm it if they are). That doesn't mean that some method won't be invented in the meantime to transfer our masterpieces to the new storage formats as they become popular (can't lose those pics of Aunt Betty at the re-union, right?). Just as there are now methods for transferring film to the digital arena. The difference being that (for better or worse), digital pictures don't degrade in the transfers, unless they are edited and saved in a compressed format. I do agree that the twin-lens can make a huge difference, especially if you need to be sure you did get the shot before you leave the field. The LCD on digital cameras let you do that also, to some extent. Coupled with the instant printers (portable, battery powered), you can make sure your digital pics are ok before you leave the area also. The quality isn't quite up to the true film standard on many cameras, but for many projects, that extra quality isn't needed (computer or web-based). The newest digital cameras are 6 mega-pixels tho - that should equal what you capture on film for just about any project, provided the results are captured uncompressed. Many lower-end cameras don't have this ability, so the extra resolution is wasted. One reason is the huge size of high-res pictures. For just-for-fun shots, tho, even a mid-range size digital film is "big enough". You can get about 130 pics on an 80 Mb media, at medium res of my camera. about 30 or so at the full 2.1 megapixels uncompressed. If you don't want to invest in those 500 MB smart media cards, there is now a 6G portable drive that can be used to move the data from the digital film (I think it supports several formats), for storage until they can be viewed on a computer. This saves having to get a notebook fired up in the field to clear out media in order to shoot more "film". -----Original Message----- From: Martin Damus ...... There is still something, for me, in having a tangible film that can be archived and stored for two hundred years - if you go digital you hope that in two hundred years the technology can read your cd ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 01:24:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: A New Round of Aerial Applications An open letter to the "bee world" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/7/01 10:10:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jfischer@SUPERCOLLIDER.COM writes: << Such a hostile and adversarial approach will do nothing to prevent the negative impact of spraying, and will only harm the perception of beekeepers as "reasonable and responsible steward of the environment". There is no reason to demonize those involved.>> Thanks, Jim. I am sorry I phrased this in such cynical terms. I have seen some demons, (so there is no reason to demonize them), but I also have seen some decent folks. (Sigh!) I may need to step back from this for a bit. << These people need HELP, not confrontation. >> Actually I have tried to help in most situations. In the label violations reported at http://members.aol.com/gardenbees/ I kept track of the hours the bees were flying, and reported to the mosquito control people each day. They completely ignored the data. There are actually two different matters here. One is the ecological damage, and this will occur whether or not the label is obeyed. The other is the damage to beekeepers by label violations. The gentleman who was victimized in the Horry County violation is a hard working and productive citizen, who was screwed by the county. He put in a claim for about a quarter of his actual losses, and they have totally ignored him. The state pesticide enforcement people admitted it was a violation, but refrained from citing the perps. I guess I have to say I am angry about this. I know how hard he struggles to recover; I've been thru it myself. Part of the problem is that he gets no support. Other South Carolina beekeepers don't seem to be concerned, unless they get hit themselves. And the state bee man is of no help. If a new round of aerial applications is forthcoming, the beekeeping world has got to close ranks and get behind the victims, or this will continue ad infinitum. In fact it will get worse. I suppose I am not the one to lead the way, here. I'm tired and burnt out. I'm in no condition to charm the applicators. But I wish I could somehow light a fire under a hundred other beekeepers, who would get actively and intelligently involved. There are probably only about a half dozen of our number in the US, who are actively trying to deal with this, and they get little support from the community. Many beekeepers won't speak up, even if they have taken hits, and some do not even recognize the symptoms of poisoning. Here are some self checks for each beekeeper to help evaluate whether we are dealing with this. Can you identify the half dozen adulticides that are commonly used for mosquitoes? Do you know what each label says about bees? Have you read them? Did you know that pesticide laws protect bees - not at the hive, but at the flower - the place where it really counts? Are you acquainted with FIFRA? Have you participated in condoning label violations, by protecting ONLY your own bees? Do you know that the labels do not usually distinguish honeybees from other bees? In your state, do you know who is in charge of vector control? Of pesticide enforcement? Have you written letters to editors on behalf of the bees (who have no other defender but you)? Have you sought support from those who need pollination? From those who are concerned about the environment? Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 19:55:14 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Wim de Jong Subject: beeaters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes those little devils that come done from=20 Asia to northern Australia ' stay for the winter [eat every bee in sight } do a tour of Australia and go home=20 to rest for next year. yes the rainbow bee eater; >i have seen them sit on top of the hive 11 at a time and keep the bees in the hive until 10 am >Wim AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 01:41:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: purple loosestrife In-Reply-To: <200108071946.f77JkH827672@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I seen Loosestrife taking over small, shallow wetlands along the sides of roads and in drainage areas. Hollows and ditches formerly full of cattails are now overgrown with Loosestrife and a tall Bamboo like grass that also chokes out everything else in the area. My observations are limited to relatively small areas, tucked away along roadsides in fairly developed areas- but that's the "wetlands" I have grown up around. The places I used to hunt frogs, and gather cattails are now chock- full of tall purple blossoms and 12 foot high bamboo stands. No more Ducks nest in the hollow behind the elementary school I attended- Heck, you can't even see water. It was never deep to begin with, and was usually nearly dry by august, but the Ducks liked it in the spring. I'm not entirely comfortable with introducing insect controlls either. Mistakes have been made in the past, and will probably happen in the future, but at least someone is trying to restore some kind of balance. I hope it is being done carefully, and from the tests outlined on the pages previously mentioned on this list, I think every effort is being made to prevent a repeat of previous fiascos. There is a similar battle on in the Great lakes right now against an introduced mollusk. The tiny zebra mussel grows all over everything- including water intakes, and has made quite a nusance of itself. It has also cleared up the water of Lake St Claire- The lake has never looked so clear and pretty! Trouble is, that the clearer water means that lakeweeds get more sunlight, grow faster, and eventually break off, washing ashore. Now homeowners complain about the mats of seaweed. I can't recall anyone coming up with any benefits the Zebra mussel has provided- other than clearer water. But if they did, would that benefit balance out the thousands (Maybe millions)of dollars now spent cleaning off encrustations, Chlorinating water to kill mussel Larvae, and mowing and composting lakeweed before it becomes a nusance on the beach? I suppose it depends on who is adding up the numbers. We see the advantage that this plant gives to our bees during dry spells. If we added up the value of all the honey gathered from all the purple loosestrife by beekeeper kept bees, it would probably add up to only a few hundred thousand dollars at best. (If someone has better figures, I'd like to hear about it- I am just guessing, and admit it freely.) It may be important to us, but we beekeepers are a VERY small minority. And not one that is very vocal- witness the ongoing Pesticide Spraying problems. Now compare this to the Millions of Dollars that hunters spend on Duck hunting. Hunting, as controversial as it may be, is avidly supported by people who enjoy it. Hunters spend money, for supplies, Hotel accomidations, Gas, Food, and countless other things during Duck season. Rural Chambers of Commerce like hunters. Duck hunters also support organizations that look out for their best interest. Hunters also contribute money to preserve wetlands, and provide better habitat for ducks. Hunters contribute money to preserve wetlands, and provide better habitat for ducks. "Ducks Unlimited" is just one group devoted to preserving habitat, among other things. Groups with strong Lobbyists get heard. I can think of no similar organization working for beekeepers- When was the last time you saw a TV or magazine spot urging people to protect pollinators? Ducks are cute, and get Better PR than bees. (Ducks flying south are inspiring and romantic, Bees swarming are scary.) Promoting Honey is good, but too far from the source to get people to think about the bees themselves. Now add in the voice of the enviromentalists, who seem to lean towards opposing the spread of introduced species. These are the same enviromentalists who are our allies in the battle against widespread pesticide spraying. I think we'd be better off supporting them, which will benefit us much more in the long run, than grousing about losing introduced nectar sources. Having fields of Loosestrife and Star thistle will do us no good if all our bees are killed off by Mosqito or agricultural spraying. Somehow, I think the small good that loosestrife does for bees won't outweigh the percieved damage it does to other groups. If the introduced beetles work as planned, loosestrife won't be eliminated, it will just not form a solid mass of purple for miles and miles in roadside ditches. We may still get some honey, just not as much, or as reliably. Diversity is good. In wetlands, farmlands, or even in urban areas, I like to see a healthy mix of plantlife, animallife and insect life. This may not offer a "Buffet" for my bees, like a field of Loosestrife, or Alfalfa, but I think the mix is probably better overall. If we like diversity in farming, we can't ask the enviromentalists to allow any natural areas to lose diversity either. Fair is fair. Ellen in Michigan Martin Damus wrote: I have seen loosestrife in many wetlands, and I have ye! t to see it completely take over any wetland. It has its margin of habitat requirements, and in all the places I have seen it it has mixed with the native flora. No one has yet, to my knowledge, shown using scientific studies that it is really causing large scale harm, something I would think is a prerequisite to importing exotic plant-eating beetles to eradicate it! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:03:17 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Manuka In-Reply-To: <200108080220.f782Kb809175@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I saw this past week where all Manuka honey in NZ was being recalled, >due to packaging claims ... >NZ apparently doesn't allow health claims, but there were many on the >"wound-dressing" manuka honey products being sold. Only one brand (Comvita) was required to put on different labels. This is rather infuriating, as manuka honey is a very well proven wound-dressing. R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:21:55 +1200 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: bee photography. In-Reply-To: <200108071417.f77EHv816645@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I really like this thread. Some really good ideas. One that I don't think has come out is that the digitals out there have a significant advantage for photographing small objects over film. This is a longer depth of focus. I think this is due to the size of the CCD chip (i.e. the "film" in a digital camera) being around a quarter the size of 35mm film. In many of the reviews on digital cameras this is expressed as a disadvantage when taking portrait photos because it can be difficult to have the subject in focus and the background out of focus. I recently purchased my second digital (the first was an Olympus 1400L = D600 in US). It's an Olympus 2100 Ultra Zoom. I also have a Nikon 801S with a 60mm macro lens. My experience is that I am not a good enough photographer to maximise the potential resolution of film. Generally my ability to take photos is the limiting factor. Lighting, steady camera, in focus, etc. all conspire against me in most of my shots. I have a good film scanner (Nikon Coolscan LS-200, 2,700dpi) and the resolution of this is about half the theoretical potential of average film. In my case however I never achieve that potential. I know that others more adept than I am, often do. However my latest digital has really impressed me. With a 10 x optical zoom that is *mechanically* stablilized (sharp hand held shots on full zoom with half second exposures!), I have been holding a cheap (US$25) Macro lens (a +4) over the front (from my old camera, different thread size) for some results that make my previous results seem poor. If you are interested, take a look at: www.airborne.co.nz/bees1.htm I would welcome any comments. Cheers, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:06:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Bee photography: A summary? A couple of weeks ago, I asked a question about the best lens to use for bee photography on a Pentax SLR system. This is a challenge to anyone who's followed the discussion that followed - which has been astounding - to attempt a summary. Perhaps this can be divided into two main areas: SLR (traditional) and digital. Perhaps the assumption should be that a person wants to stick with one of the two choices, but needs to know exactly what the other one offers. This suggests a kind of pro and con list for each choice. Thanking you all in advance Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:25:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: beeaters I had almost given up on keeping bees in Bushmanland in South Africa because of those birds (or something very similar). I needed the bees for the pollenation of 50 acres of mellons, though, so every weekend I shot them in the trees above the apiary. It took about 5 or six times, but they either got the message, or I took out the local population because it got better. They're a very pretty bird, and what a .308 bullet does to them is a caution, but it was either them or me! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 10:34:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: A New Round of Aerial Applications An open letter to the "bee world" In-Reply-To: <200108080215.f782FL809116@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not necessarily the air guard doing the spraying. much is run by local officials ,under pressure to "do something". their public works has spraying equipment that is ground based. that is what they used in LA years ago, driving through the subdivisions, as well as at marine bases I've been on. you are better off finding out the authority for the spraying, then determining who is doing the actuall work, rather than just starting with the air guard. here, the guard flies refuelers - you'd be hard pressed to spray effectively with one of those, unless you want to dump aircraft fuel on the bugs. -k ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:28:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Susan L. Nielsen" Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: pollen In-Reply-To: <200108080233.f782XA809464@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Robert Mann wrote: > 3 Susan's theory would apply approximately to nectar also, > wouldn't it? To the extent that nectar is less "hanging out there" than > anthers are, the concentration by evaporation would roughly compensate, I > theorize. I am not aware that anyone is harvesting and selling raw nectar. Honey is a "product" in the sense that it is processed in order to become honey. It changes its character in more ways than simply through the evaporation of moisture. > At this rate, honey is predicted to be so laden with toxins from > the environment that it becomes unfit for human consumption. This may be true. I would hope not. In any case, honey is tested (prehaps not regularly, but at least sometimes) for the presence of contaminants. > Fact will always matter more than theory in such matters. What are > the facts about toxins in pollen - and in honey? Correct -- so where are the facts regarding pollen? Show me that it does not act as a dust mop, that tests demonstrate it is not contaminated with environmental insults, and I will concede its safety. Not necessarily its efficacy, but its safety. Susan -- Susan Nielsen | Beehive: If you build it, snielsen@orednet.org | they will comb. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:22:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: bee photography. In-Reply-To: <200108081251.f78CpM822526@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, Wow. for handholding the macro lens, you got some remarkably good shots. Depth of field is pretty small, it seems - one bee is fuzzy at front and rear, in focus in the middle (or so it seems here). I also started with the Olympus D600 (US version), then switched to the 2500. I wanted the 2100, but was outvoted. Perhaps we'll have to have two, one for the 10x zoom and image stabilization, the other for manual control and better macro settings. -Karen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:51:33 +1200 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: bee photography. Comments: To: Karen Oland In-Reply-To: <200108081650.f78Gom800529@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Peter, > > Wow. for handholding the macro lens, you got some remarkably good shots. > Depth of field is pretty small, it seems - one bee is fuzzy at front > and rear, in focus in the middle (or so it seems here). Hi Karen.... Yes but the others are not....... same settings, flash etc. Depth of field seems quite good to me considering the bees are filling so much of the photo. Any larger than this and I couldn't keep up with them! If they would only stay STILL! Couple of possibilites for the poor shot - although I'm not sure which one you mean. I did say "cheap" macro lens. This was a set of 3 lenses for US$25. Could be one of the "out of focus" segments you are referring to is actually a fault with the cheapie lens. Also I'm not sure that I was holding the lens perfectly square also. I know that at one time I was trying this, with spot focus set, the camera would focus closer to me than the spot I was aiming at......I must buy an adapter ring! The 2100 Ultra Zoom has lots of manual controls. Shutter, Aperature, Focus, Spot metering, balanced metering, spot and balanced focus, several white balance settings (but no manual). An LCD view finder (so not a true SLR) that is mediocre to crappy to look through, but has the advantage of giving instant see-able exposure settings. Price is getting down to US$500 at some of the web sellers. Cheers, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:21:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: Gene Pool? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, After writing this post I realise I'm asking the AHB question again... In unconnected posts Martin Damus offered the view that importing many beestrains was good for variability, and James Kilty stressed the importance of breeding from our local bees. I'm sure they're both correct... Can anyone help me understand this from a GENETIC viewpoint please? I am aware there are a lot of other implications to importation, but I am trying to understand (still) the scientific extent of differences between the Apis mellifera honeybees, and the effects of hybridisation between them. Is the cross between Greek Buckfasts and English Buckfasts a new strain? What defines a 'race' of bee? It is quite possible I lack some totally basic knowledge, so a pointer to a good primer page (or book) will be welcomed if that is the answer. I can't get past the level of chromosomes only combining in one individual before nature separates them again, let alone understanding what a gene pool really means on my own. Thinks in advance. John Sewell " In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities" Suzuki. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:02:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: A New Round of Aerial Applications An open letter to the"bee world" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "David L. Green" wrote: > In a message dated 8/7/01 10:10:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jfischer@SUPERCOLLIDER.COM writes: > > << Such a hostile and adversarial approach will do nothing to prevent the > negative > impact of spraying, and will only harm the perception of beekeepers > as "reasonable and responsible steward of the environment". There is no > reason to demonize those involved.>> > > Thanks, Jim. I am sorry I phrased this in such cynical terms. I have seen > some demons, (so there is no reason to demonize them), but I also have seen > some decent folks. (Sigh!) I may need to step back from this for a bit. > > << These people need HELP, not confrontation. >> > > > There are actually two different matters here. One is the ecological > damage, and this will occur whether or not the label is obeyed. The other is > the damage to beekeepers by label violations. > > Hi David and Jim I understand both points and they are well taken. The overall solution will take REAL public education on how nature is in balance or how it will get there no matter what we do to mess things up. Dealing with people is a difficult task. Confrontation causes problems and needs to be done only to state a different point of view. Positive attitudes will bring positive results. It is very difficult to be positive when we know and understand the negative results of what will be taking place on the East coast of the US. We wont stop it , but we should educate as many people as possible as to how nature works and what pesticides are doing to the Earth. (Our Home) I sell honey at 5 farmers markets a week. I come in contact with thousands of people each week. I just spent 3 days at the Island Earth Fair on Vashon Island here in Washington State, talking about pesticides and nature I have the EPA's data on how much pesticides are used every year on the US and the Earth. Its not much to do on my part. But it does get the word out to the people. Every little bit helps. Its very good to have emotion about something that you love. We have to get it out. We also need to make progress when we have the media to contend with at the same time. We can only point out to people the truth. Finding the right people that will be doing the spraying and educate them is the only thing that will work in this situation. It takes work and beekeepers are up to there arm pits in work this time of year. I am. Pulling honey today. Somebody will step up to the plate and make a difference. Jim, brought out a good point. Contact someone in the National guard. Stay away from the media. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya Wa. US ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 18:11:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: bee eaters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen strands of monofilament strung up as a grid to good effect to cheaply deny predatory birds their air superiority. If they want to chase bees they have to navigate around the monofilament strands or crash into them. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 18:11:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Re: Gene Pool? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John asks, > Can anyone help me understand this from a GENETIC viewpoint please? Although not an expert, genetics was a favorite subject in college. Breeding local bees only may limit the gene pool to the point where the genes controlling unwanted traits are magnified due to queens mating with grandsons. I believe, eggs fertilized by sperm from a son are not viable. A good analogy is the disease hemophilia that was rampant in the royal families in Europe. Since Royalty had to marry Royalty, close marriages in the same family caused the gene for the disease, a recessive(needing two genes), express itself. By bringing in outside genes, the doubling up of recessive genes is less likely. Often, different strains or breeds carry recessive genes for different undesirable traits, and therefore doubling of genes for a particular trait is less likely. Thus the phrase hybrid vigor. Hybrids tend to be stronger since unwanted traits are less likely to express themselves. There is a good book, Equine Genetics and Selection Procedures, that can explain this better than I. Although it is, obviously about horses, the theory is the same. This raises a question from me, however. I have been advised a couple of times that Buckfast bees(hybrids) get nasty when they supercede their queen. What strains were used to develop this strain of bees and why do they get nasty? Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:28:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: bee photography. In-Reply-To: <3B724F15.7009.2D5823B@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds interesting. Would not like the LCD, tho. Handholding a lens is very difficult, as that adds another moving part to your shot (even with short exposures). btw, didn't mean to say poor, just short focal area. Here are a couple of mine. Keep in mind that the flower was just as important as the bee, when these were being shot. All bees and flowers were here at the house (as was the bug in the white glads). Olympus 2500, probably the main macro setting, not supermacro. All taken at medium resolution (not at the highest 2.1 megapixel resolution), stored in JPG format by camera. Not edited or altered. each is approx 400K in size -- full TIFF files, with the added resolution are about 6MB, from what I remember. I seldom take those, as I don't need that much resolution for my purposes. http://www.staffingtech.com/images/daylilies/bees.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:24:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beenetuk Host Organization: ZbeeNet computer networking for beekeepers Subject: 70th National Honey Show Good Evening Bee-L, The National Honey Show Ltd. Announcing an international beekeeping event held each year at Kensington Town Hall, Kensington, London, England. Date: November 15th-17th 2001. National Honey Show members will be receiving the 2001 Show Schedule over the next few weeks. Visit our website http://www.honeyshow.co.uk for the following: - Lecture programme. Download the schedule of classes, rules and regulations. Free download of all National Honey Show publications (personal use only). List of world-class traders and exhibitors attending the three-day event. Read articles on preparation of honey and comb for showing. Join the Honey Show mailing list. Honey Show support forum. Add your beekeeping links. Look at photos from last years show and view the honey show results. Regards Steve from London .. When you go in search of honey you must expect to be stung by bees. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:22:37 +0100 Reply-To: Gavin Ramsay Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Gene Pool? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear John and All > In unconnected posts Martin Damus offered the view that importing many > beestrains was good for variability, and James Kilty stressed the importance > of breeding from our local bees. I'm sure they're both correct... > Can anyone help me understand this from a GENETIC viewpoint please? [snip] Nice questions. Pros and cons of increasing the genetic diversity of the bees in your apiary/region/country? I'll come back to this one. A race? A. mellifera which has, in a defined geographical area, evolved through selection over a very long time to the local conditions (including beekeeping practices) to succeed. A strain? A line of bees of whatever origin, usually deliberately selected over years rather than unconsciously over historical time, to possess a suite of characters desired by the beekeeper and to show them stably as long as mating is controlled. A new strain is not just a cross between 2 existing ones but could arise from it if repeatedly selected for uniformity. Consequences of hybridisation? In the first generation, as with plants, hybrid vigour. The individual gets an advantage in metabolic terms, so can grow more quickly, or end up bigger, or do more of what it likes to do. The reasons for this are rather technical and still scientifically controversial, so I'll not go into them here. (Can if you like!) If you start with two true-breeding strains and make an F1, the result can be vigorous and relatively uniform. One full set of genes from each parent, nothing complex. However, when that individual reproduces (at least if it goes through a process called meiosis, as the queen does), variable mixes of genes from the two original strains get dispensed into the gametes, and so the offspring are variable and often do not perform nearly as well as the F1. Meiosis, by the way, is where the chromosomes from the 2 different parents meet up to swap segments before separating again in a way that halves their number. This mixing of genes might cause a disruption to traits relying on sets of selected genes working together - might gentleness be in this category? From that variable population you might, with isolated mating and careful selection over many generations, be able to pull out a useful strain with desirable characters. However deliberate breeding like this is hard enough with plants that stand still, let alone long-flying promiscuous serial bigamists! Consequences of inbreeding? Many organisms show a decline in vigour as inbreeding proceeds. Why? We all carry defective versions of genes but these are usually masked by a healthy version. With inbreeding, if taken too far, more and more genes may have defective versions exposed as both members of the pair (remembering that most organisms, drones excluded, have two copies of each gene). However, by selecting for the traits you wish within lines of different parentage within an apiary, inbreeding should be no problem. So, if James Kilty prefers to work with local strains he has the advantage of starting with genetic material already adapted to local conditions and just has to select for traits which he wishes to bring out in that kind of genetic background. The big problem is that the populations you start with are less likely to contain the full range of genetic variation found in the honeybee so you may miss something, and you don't get the hybrid vigour which can be found in inter-strain matings. Of course local bees may already be heavily selected for something really useful due to past epidemics and associated heavy losses - let's speculate tracheal mite resistance - and exotic material may not have this. Martin Dumas liked variability. That can be good too - increasing hybrid vigour and providing more genes in the genepool from which the perfect bee may emerge, at the expense of a degree of unpredictability. So yes, you were right - both are correct! Hope that this explanation from the perspective of a plant geneticist made some sense, and apologies to those who didn't want a genetics lesson! best wishes Gavin. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:28:59 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mohsen M Ramadan Subject: Re: pollen In-Reply-To: <200108080233.f782X8809461@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ( Fact will always matter more than theory in such matters. What are the facts about toxins in pollen?) I am conducting a research on the biological control of fireweed (Senecio madagascariensis) in Hawaii, and have seen thousands of acres filled with this weed in Hawaii and Australia. Pollen collected from hives close to these sites should not be offered for human consumption because of high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids present in the pollen and every part of the plant (even dried parts). Pyrrolizidine alkaloids are serious toxins that causes irreversible liver diseases for livestock, and human poisoning have also been reported. You should be able to get more details on this subject by searching the web under (Seneciosis) Dr. Mohsen M. Ramadan Exploratory Entomologist State of Hawaii Department of Agriculture Division of Plant Industry 1428 South King Street, Honolulu, HAWAII 96814 (USA) Tel: 808 973 9526 Fax: 808 973 9533 email : Mohsen@hawaii.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:38:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Gene Pool? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Coleene, I thought sure someone would answer your inquiry about Brother Adam and Buckfast, but since nobody did, I will comment broadly on his creation of the Buckfast hybrid. Prior to the loss of the great majority of bees in England by acariosis during and shortly after World War I, almost all bees in England were apis mellifera mellifera. These bee losses were not seen in the rest of Europe where the principal races used were primarily Carniolan over most of Europe and Italians around the Mediterranean Sea. Brother Adam extensively investigated all of the races and strains of bees in all parts of Europe, mid east, and much of Africa over the ensuing 50 years. Trying to "make" a bee suitable for the English climate and also a little more gentle than apis mellifera mellifera, and who was not subject to the Acarine disease (now we know it was the Tracheal Mite), the Buckfast, while primarily Italian, has numerous other lines included in the breeding including Carniolan and "hold-on-to -your-hat", even some apis mellifera adansonii, now named by Ruttner in 1981, apis mellifera scutellata, the dreaded Africanized Honey Bee. In spite of Brother Adam's work and dedication, the Buckfast hybrid has certainly not been adopted by most English beekeepers, but has enjoyed perhaps more success in the U. S. It is a nice bee, but I feel the Carniolan is a far better bee for our VERY EARLY (and almost ONLY) Maryland nectar flow starting near April 15th and ending usually by May 31st. The Buckfast is much slower in building an early population than the Carniolan, and even some strains of Italians. I hope I have helped with this non technical discussion of Brother Adam and "his" Buckfast. You should read his books as they are quite detailed and most interesting. I met him in England and talked with him for about a half hour just 2 years before his death, but his deafness and his native German lineage made our conversation a little difficult; but our walk through his apiary was exciting and his handling of the bees and the colonies had few equals. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:34:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rob Green Subject: Photography, and Indiana State Beekeepers Assn Newsletter In-Reply-To: <200108090400.f79402822612@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Interesting discussions on photography. To get the bees to stand still, apparently you can freeze them, then pose them. (I'm laughing at this). And you have several minutes before they thaw and come back to life. Remember in photography class, I learned that that photograph of roasted turkey was a raw bird, browned with a propane torch and then coated in motor oil. Now, let me say this... the photos I've seen from some of you are great. I'm the editor of the ISBA Journal, the newsletter of the Indiana State Beekeepers Association (www.HoosierBuzz.com) and if you take a look at the current issue (http://www.HoosierBuzz.com/document/0108.pdf) you'll see I'm making use of several pictures. The cover photo, the hand on the frame, was taken with a cheapie digital... cost me about $150 a year ago. the actual photo is also on the back cover. Inside the journal is a photograph of a worker with a varroa mite on her. The photo is about 20 or 40x actual size and is still clear enough to make everything out. Amazing, considering it was shot on a 35mm slide, then reshot using a slide adaptor on a digital camera for burning to a CD. Credit for the photo has to go to the State of Indiana, Chief Apiary Inspector. So, yes, I'm looking for photos... general bee photos, problem photos, hive photos, frame photos, brood photos. I'd love to publish your work in our journal. It's all volunteer but you can certainly have copies for your resume. And if anyone wants to regularly receive the newsletter, you can sign up on the webpage, www.HoosierBuzz.com Rob Green Webmaster, Editor Indiana State Beekeepers Association webmaster@HoosierBuzz.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:47:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Re: Manuka (was Purple Loosestrife) In-Reply-To: <200108080220.f782KW809171@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Karen, It was Bee Culture, Aug 2001 issue, pg 41. I quote: " New Zealand law prohibits labels claiming natural products have therapeutic value. Breaches can draw a maximum NZ$100,000 fine." Joe At 04:42 PM 8/7/01 -0400, you wrote: >I saw this past week where all Manuka honey in NZ was being recalled, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 04:48:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Gene Pool? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Sewell writes: <> A 'race' is basically a subspecies, that is, a group of organisms which differ from their closes relatives, but not sufficiently to justify the creation of a separate species. I realise that this is vague; what's a species anyway? These things are perfectly clear in theory, but the system was invented (for the convenience of scientists) before the discovery of evolution. In practice things are not always that clear; it's obvious that horses and donkeys, for instance, are separate species, but marsh orchids are not so obvious. Basically, a 'race' of bees is adapted for a specific environment, and may be expected to carry genes for traits which are suitable for that environment, rather than for traits which are not. So, for instance, A.m.m. tends to have a smaller broodnest than Italians, be slower to build up in the spring (just what you want in a typical British spring!), to cut down broodrearing when there's no flow, and to stop raising brood quite early. Italians, on the other hand, raise lots of brood all the time, which is probably what you want in a Mediterranean climate, but imagine if they were raising all that brood in a nasty wet English autumn. They'd end up with no stores, and starve, while A.m.m. would survive. I wouldn't worry about the genepool, frankly. There's plenty of evidence of diversity in the original British bees, and they survived in relative isolation for 8000 years or so (since we became an island) without evidence of inbreeding. This will become a problem if you use II, and only use drones of your own strain, or if you use a seriously isolated mating station, and never import new blood. Otherwise, given the promiscuity of queens, and the wandering tendency of drones, I suspect that you'd have the opposite problem, and get more hybridisation than you'd want. It's difficult to think what to suggest in the way of introductory reading; the problem here is that inheritance in bees works in a slightly different way to inheritance in mammals, given the haploid drone (with only one set of genes rather than the 'normal' two), and I'm only just getting my head round it myself. I know I've seen some useful stuff, but can't place it right now. Anyone else got any ideas? Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Susan L. Nielsen" wrote: > Correct -- so where are the facts regarding pollen? Show me that it > does not act as a dust mop, that tests demonstrate it is not contaminated > with environmental insults, and I will concede its safety. Not necessarily > its efficacy, but its safety. Nothing is inherently safe. It depends on the source, as shown by the post on fireweed, and whatever process it goes through. Change "pollen" in the paragraph above to "water". Water you get from bottles/municipal systems/springs/etc. has either sickened or killed people, and it was labeled safe. It is a bit much to place that kind of burden on pollen when water cannot meet the criteria. Plus, I know of no one dying of contaminants in pollen while many die each year from contaminants in water. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:39:18 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Manuka (was Purple Loosestrife) In-Reply-To: <200108090650.f796oE826670@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joe >It was Bee Culture, Aug 2001 issue, pg 41. I quote: " New Zealand law >prohibits labels claiming natural products have therapeutic value. Breaches >can draw a maximum NZ$100,000 fine." Our legal system has some quirks, but I resent the suggestion that it's that stupid. The 'prohibition' is of course on claims *without supporting evidence submitted & adopted according to statute*. This law applies of course just as much to synthetic products of Swiss factories as to natural products. The practical solution in the immediate future seems to me just to leave the promulgation of the claims to word-of-mouth; don't bother to print on the label any claims for therapeutic effect. R ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:14:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Gene Pool? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Interesting discussion. I think Robert wrote in part: " It's difficult to think what to suggest in the way of introductory reading; the problem here is that inheritance in bees works in a slightly different way to inheritance in mammals, given the haploid drone (with only one set of genes rather than the 'normal' two), and I'm only just getting my head round it myself. I know I've seen some useful stuff, but can't place it right now. Anyone else got any ideas?" I would suggest "Breeding Honey Bees" ( or something similar don't have it here ) by Brother Adam for some insight into the genetics and breeding of honey bees. Very good discussion of the genetics involved as well as practical information on selection for traits. On the subject of inbreeding there is a very important difference between honey bees and mammals or plants that can cause problems. This is in the area of sex determination. In honey bees as well as some other insects if an individual only has one form of the sex gene it is a male while if there are two different forms present it is a female. In the hive if a fertilized egg only has one form of the sex gene the resulting drone larvae will be destroyed by the nurse bees due it being abnormal. The if a queen mates with her brother the chances of some of her eggs being fertilized with sperm that contains the same sex gene form that her eggs does is pretty great and will result in a significant portion of her eggs being non viable in the hive - we see a spotty brood pattern - and the hive never being able to develop the population it needs to function properly. This effect is much greater that the damage due to inbreeding in other animals and is one of the factors that make! s breeding honey bees much more of a challenge. To increase expression of a trait in a line of bees the simplest method ( as in other animals and plants ) is to inbreed but very quickly in the honey bee you end up with colonies that cannot sustain themselves due to the sex determination problem. You need to select a larger number of colonies and take measures to preserve enough genetic diversity to prevent sex determination problems in the strain of bees you are developing. ( Note this is a great simplification and may have lost accuracy ) In short you will have major problems with inbreeding in honey bees due to the sex determination system in these insects long before other damaging effects of inbreeding are seen because this effect is so damaging so quickly. Hope this is somewhat clear Brother Adam is really much better at explaining this in his book. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:49:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Gene Pool? In-Reply-To: <200108091018.f79AIa828612@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Generally, different races within a species can reproduce when crossed and have viable offspring, that themselves are fertile. This is not true between species, which may be able to reproduce, if close enough in characterics, but generally are not able to be crossed. Hence, cats and dogs cannot be crossed into a hybrid (leaving out GM), and horses and donkeys when crossed produce sterile offspring - mules. Within a race, characteristics are generally homogenous (not all, but a significant number), breeding true from one generation to another. when races are crossed, you have variability in the characteristics in which they differ - some are dominant and show in all offspring, others are not. In later generations, you end up with more variations - possibly including some that are now "pure" in the characteristics of the original parent races. The more the two races differed, the greater the number of variations you end up with. So, with Buckfast bees and enough generations of interbreeding, you could end up with individuals that were indistinguishable from each of the original species used to create them. If that includes the african bees, you could end up with a hive of very nasty bees. Right next door could be a very gentle hive, with most of the characteristics of the Carniolan. Over many more generations, you could end up with a new race of bees (provided you had sufficient isolation), with the characteristics of the best survivors. All of this assuming you as the beekeeper don't help by selecting for those characteristics you desire - such as destroying those aggressive hives. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Brenchley it's obvious that horses and donkeys, for instance, are separate species, but marsh orchids are not so obvious. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:04:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: Gene Pool? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I may be able to help with John Sewell's gene pool question. By profession and training I am a molecular geneticist and I have done research on morphological and genetic variation in honeybees (the Asian species, but it is applicable to mellifera races as well). Some definitions: Gene: a physical location on a chromosome that contains genetic code. This code is translated by the cells of an organism into a protein that has some regulatory or structural function in that organism. Allele: genes are present in different allelic types. The alleles of a gene code for the same functional protein product, but each allele makes a slightly different variant. Some have beneficial effects, some have negative effects, most are neutral. Crudely stated, natural selection "chooses" the more beneficial alleles and "ensures" their survival in the population because these alleles allow their bearers some survival or reproductive advantage over those bearing less beneficial alleles. A genetic allele is one that has a different code than another. A functional allele has not only different code, but codes for a slightly different product. Recessive and dominant alleles. For the product of a recessive allele to be made by the organism in sufficient quantity to have an effect on the physical structure or well-being of that individual it has to be present in two copies, i.e. one from mother, one from father. A dominant allele needs to be only present in one copy. Gene copies: During reproduction, a parent makes copies of its genetic material that is combined with that of the other parent and is transmitted to the offspring. You have copies of your parents' genes, your grandparents' genes etc. in your cells. Along the way, a copy that is passed to an offspring may have mutated during copying (some misreading of the genetic code occurred and was not corrected), forming a new genetic, but not neceassarily a new functional allele. Gene pool: a theoretical assemblage of all genes that may be combined through mating. e.g. If one group of bees is separated by an impassable barrier such as a mountain range from another, they are in different gene pools since they cannot freely exchange genes by mating. Gene flow: the movement of gene copies from one gene pool to another through migration of individuals bearing the gene copies and their mating within the new gene pool with subsequent survival of those new gene copies in the new gene pool. Simple migration is not gene flow - the genes must survive to become a part of the new gene pool. Gene pools may be large, that is they have many copies of genes in them (equivalent to many individuals in the population), but they are not necessarily diverse. If many of the gene copies descended from the same ancestral gene then genetic diversity is lowered. This typically happens after a phenomenon called a bottleneck. When a few individuals form the basis for an entire population, for example relatively few bees were the basis for all of America's (used in in the geographic, not nationalistic sense) beehives, the bottleneck effect ensures that the American population of bees - and its gene pool - has a less diverse assemblage of alleles than the parent (European) population. Robert Brenchley is (mostly) right not to worry about the gene pool in England, since English bees are probably derived from a large founding population that reinvaded Britain after the ice ages and have been living and mutating for thousands of years. American bees were brought from Europe on! ly a few hundred years ago, and in small numbers, so their founding is more recent than the English bees and stems from a more limited number of individuals. Both are paltry in comparison to the mainland European genetic diversity, or the incredibly diverse African gene pool(s). A race is an identifiably different variant that exists in a separate geographic area from other races. Apis mellifera mellifera is a different race from Apis mellifera ligustica because presumably the Appenines are a significant barrier to gene flow between the two areas. This lack of gene flow causes a form of inbreeding in the race, enhanced by natural selection for genes that give the bees an enhanced ability to cope with the conditions of their local surroundings. Mixing individuals from two races causes outbreeding and results in hybrids. Mostly this increases vigour in the offspring, but it may also disrupt groups of alleles (called a gene complex) that evolved in concert to improve the survivability of those bees bearing those gene complexes. The result of this is 'outbreeding depression', and results in hybrids being less capable of surviving in either parental habitat than its parents were. This makes sense if you think about it - take a bee from Africa that ! has evolved a very efficient way to cool the hive and mix it with a bee that has evolved in Scandinavia and doesn't need to cool the hive that efficiently. You may end up with a bee that is too efficient for Scandinavia, and not efficient enough for Africa. Clearly this is simplistic, but it illustrates the point. Inbreeding in races keeps locally adapted gene complexes together, and is beneficial. Inbreeding due to a massive bottleneck or improperly managed artifical selection (such as in zoos - or like the famous Habsburg chin) is usually harmful to the organism because it reduces the diversity of the gene pool and allows the expression of recessive harmful alleles, or it causes the fixation of gene complexes in which the individual genes are not harmful, but acting in concert they are. Natural selection cannot cure this because it has no new alleles to choose. So - inbreeding due to mismanagement or bottlenecks may be harmful, and the introduction of new genetic material by importation may result in hybrid vigour. Inbreeding due to natural selection keeping locally adapted gene complexes together is beneficial, and introducing new genes may be harmful. The case in Africa and Europe to 'let them be and they will sort out their problems themselves" has merit because the gene pools in those areas is diverse enough and large enough that mutation may provide the genetic material for natural selection to act on, or it may already be present and hidden (perhaps recessive) and just waiting for the right environmental conditions for it to be selected for. In America and Australia, due to their (presumably - has anyone measured this?) low genetic diversity this may not work, because the raw material for selection to act on may not be present. The populations are large enough that mutation may provide the right genetic material, but this! is such a hit-and-miss event that it may be anywhere from days to millenia before the right gene evolves in America to cope with varroa, for instance. The way I see it, if someone in the world has a bee strain that has a beneficial resistance, controlled scientific attempts should be made to breed it with local bees in the hopes of transferring those genes to the local gene pool. Then natural selection can be let to fix that gene, or managed breeding can do so in a shorter time period. We obviously need to avoid the africanized bee fiasco. The way I see we are right now at the same point in beekeeping as the ancient Egyptians were with cow breeding. They had the massive Auerochs and other mainly wild cows, and now we have docile milk machine Holsteins that any six-year-old with a stick can chase across the field. We have a ways to go to get Holstein bees from our Auerochs bees. Martin Damus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:51:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: macro photos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Because of my work, I have a variety of cameras with zoom and some true macro lenses, both film and digital. I have no doubt that digital cameras will probably replace film for day to day use - point and shoot, no film, no waiting, no cost - until you get to the printing. The first digital cameras and the current supply of cheap ones have pretty low resolution - but work ok for web pages - since browsers and monitors are not likely to be set for millions of colors and the finest resolution -- and for web images, this is a mute point, because download times for high resolution pictures are so slow that most people will stop the download. Most of the images on web sites are further compressed into jpg files, which may reduce the size of the file by 100 fold or more. Just don't expect this same image to print out a poster-sized picture. The higher resolution digital cameras (3-4 Megapixels) are turning out some good pictures (3.3 MgPixel Nikon cost nearly $1000). But, it still has relatively simple lenses and offers only clip on lenses for wider angel and true macro. I'd put its image quality about on a par with a good quality point and shoot 35 mm film camera - the ones with a built in wide angle to telephoto zoom lens costing about $150-300 for camera and lens. Now, if 3x5 or 4x5 pictures and web images are your main interest, then you will probably really like the high res digital cameras, especially those with optical zoom. Go for as much optical zoom as you can get. The digital zoom is a poor approximation of a good lenses. However, 35 mm and other film cameras are not dead yet. If you want extremely fine detail, interchangeable lenses, filters, etc., the top line 35s are almost impossible to beat. With these, you can push your pictures to poster size, assuming you have a good lens, enough light, etc. We have large prints of bees and you can count the hairs on the bee. My digital Nikon can't come close to the quality. But, you wouldn't notice much difference on small prints. The key at this time are the lenses available for film cameras. The digital cameras are slow to produce an affordable digital camera body with interchangeable lenses. I assume it will come. As per add on lenses, bellows, reversed lenses - all work, some better than others. A true macro lens (if you can afford it), couples to the camera and light readings, focus, etc. are all through the camera - no guessing. With some of the other set ups, you may have to get out your calculator to figure out the light drop-off. Flash helps, but tends to leave a black background and highlights (sometimes where you don't want them). Ring flashes provide even illumination at the end of the lens, but may flatten the subject (because of uniform light from all sides). However, the newer ring flashes can be set to vary the light output around the ring - eliminating some of the fuss of having 2 or more flashes on brackets outboard from the camera. A good macro lens is often a 100 or 180 mm lens, and will give you 1:1 image (in other words), the camera can focus on an area the same size as the image area on the 35 mm film. So, a bee will do a pretty good job of filling up most of the frame. The newest technology is a lens that starts at 1:1 and goes to 5:1. Obviously, depth of field is very shallow with this lens. Finally, you can use 800ASA film to stop action (but the grain is likely to look like a gravel field in a large print), or you can use a slower, fine grain film. But, that almost mandates use of flash fill. Also, you can chill bees in a fridge, but to my eye, they always look like the taxidermy version of a live animal. More challenging is to photograph free flying bees. The trick is to watch and anticipate their movements. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:46:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apiarist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Loosestrife 8/8, More info. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I sent a rather scathing letter to the editor (along with several pages of Loosestrife information) at The ABJ magazine in response to the printing of the article about Loosestrife, vetch,and safflower being great bee plants, Jan.'01 issue. Anyone who would like to learn and take a look at the mappings done on this rampant invader should let me know. I'd be happy to share what I and 6+ other state environmental departments already know. "Bee friendly" it may be, but "welcome" it definitelly is not! - Emily Johnson, the Honey Bunch, Horticulture student ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:51:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Most durable paint for hives In-Reply-To: <200108091245.f79Cj5800894@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live near Ottawa, Canada. Brief climate summary: Temperatures are often down to -30C in the winter, and as high as +30C in the summer (except for the current heat wave where +35 seems more typical.) There is snow on the ground perhaps 5 months of the year, and the winter air is quite dry. In the summer it is often very, very humid. I am beginning to invest in larger numbers of hives now and want to paint them with the most durable protectant available. I don't know what that is. My first hives I painted with deck sealer. I reasoned that wooden decks, being horizontal, must survive standing water and intense sunlight. That is worse than what my hives will experience. The result was a very attractive natural wood colour that I quite like, but recently I noted in the directions for the deck sealer that to repaint, I must first remove all traces of the original coat. Oh dear - that could be quite a chore! So I am re-evaluating what I paint my hives with. I believe that oil based paints last longer than latex based paints. Will marine enamel last longer yet? Should I apply a sealant of some sort before applying the paint? What is the most durable, most effective thing to use? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:23:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Maurice Cobo Subject: Re: pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" --> Dr. Mohsen M. Ramadan wrote: ---- -> Pollen collected from hives close to these sites should not be offered for human consumption because of high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids present in the pollen and every part of the plant (even dried parts). ---- Thank you for that information, but you did not mentioned what is the source of this agent and how it got to the vegetation. Dr. Mohsen M. Ramadan, can you give us that information if you can ? Thank you, Maurice ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:44:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Gene Pool? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Martin & All, > and introducing new genes may be harmful. First let me thank Martin for his post. Martin adding his expertise to the list is wonderful! I for one would welcome new genetic material into the U.S. gene pool. I would be willing to take the risk. About the only serious talk about our gene pool (U.S.) I attended was at the Portland, Oregon ABF convention and was given by James Bach now retired Washington State Apiary inspector. Mr Bach brought the issue to the front and He and I talked at length about the subject. Over the last two decades both Mr. Bach and myself see the signs of a narrow gene pool in our bees. I estimate 10 to 20 % of queens most beekeepers order each year lack certain genes they had 20 plus years ago. Signs include: 1. failure to gather honey 2. not prolific 3.running on frames 4. not requeening after swarming and many others. > is such a hit-and-miss event that it may be anywhere from days to millenia before the right gene evolves in America to cope with varroa, for instance. > The way I see it, if someone in the world has a bee strain that has a >beneficial resistance, controlled scientific attempts should be made to breed >it with local bees in the hopes of transferring those genes to the local gene >pool. Then natural selection can be let to fix that gene, or managed breeding >can do so in a shorter time period. Actually the above IS the basis for SMR queens but instead of looking for a certain *strain* as Martin wrote Dr. Harbo is simply isolating bees with the SMR gene through testing and then inbreeding to fix the gene. Success has been had on the first part of Martins comments. The second part *in theory* should work to fix that gene in the local gene pool. I agree with Martin's *the way I see it* but even though the gene is fixed in the local gene pool will the gene be able to give SMR enough to stop using chemicals for varroa in ALL colonies. I am only a beekeeper and not on the level of Martin on the topic but believe I ask valid questions. Martin what percentage of open mated daughters of SMR queens would carry the same amount of SMR as the breeder queen. 25%- 50%-75%-100%? Surely from your past research and not involved in the current SMR project you can give us your opinion or simply a guess? SMR means - suppressed varroa mite reproduction Varroa is claimed by the USDA to not be able to reproduce on these bees. The ads in ABJ claim 100% SMR. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. In 1923 Rudolf Steiner predicted "mankind would lose the honey bee to parasitic mites in 80 years because the honey bee has been *bred for profit* to the point it has become easy prey for viruses and parastic mites". Was Steiner years ahead of his time as we are only discovering now that viruses may be the actual cause of the bees demise rather than varroa itself (Norman Carrick 2001). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:04:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Loosestrife 8/8, More info. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Emily & All, Emily wrote: > I sent a rather scathing letter to the editor (along with several pages of > Loosestrife information) at The ABJ magazine in response to the printing of > the article about Loosestrife, vetch,and safflower being great bee plants, > Jan.'01 issue. Anyone who would like to learn and take a look at the > mappings done on this rampant invader should let me know. I'd be happy to share what I and 6+ other state environmental departments already know. "Bee friendly" it may be, but "welcome" it definitelly is not! Emily I hope you will not be as hard on me as you were on my friends at Dadant! Beekeepers have long been accused of seeding the thistle (once called Chapmans Honey Plant). I have never heard of a beekeeper seeding any problem plants. We do however locate and sit bees next to large areas of Loosestrife, vetch and Safflower. That is the main reason for the article in my opinion. They are allready there so why not make use of the plants? I for one do! Most longtime beekeepers only scan over those articles because we are very in tune with nectar and pollen producing plants in our area. Many of the non native plants such as Brazilian pepper have resisted all efforts to eradicate so we might as well quite wasting tax payers dollars herbicides and learn to confine those areas they are now in to slow the expansion. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri "Thinking one persons *perfect world* is another persons *worst - ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:10:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Frank I. Reiter" wrote: > > I am beginning to invest in larger numbers of hives now and want to paint > them with the most durable protectant available. I use high-quality, off-color exterior latex in E TN. Buy it at stores that custom mix paints and occasionally get the color wrong. Very cheap, but excellent paint. Get some really funky colors sometimes, but the bees don't mind. Logan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:20:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Bottleing Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is my first year to get honey any comments on how to process it. Its currently in 5 gallons buckets and was put through a strainer (two parts) before being place in the buckets. Can I now go straight from the buckets to the bottles? Some of my honey will be sold at the local fairs through our club, do I need a complete address or is name, town and phone number enough? Thanks, Rodney in VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:10:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: pollen Comments: cc: MCOBO@ALORICA.COM In-Reply-To: <200108092015.f79KF6815463@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Harmful Alkaliods occur naturally in many plants naturally. Comfrey often contains harmful Alkaloids, and for this reason, is no longer recommended for consumption. (Even tho comfrey tea has been a folk medicine for a very long time, Modern herbal books no longer recommend it- tho it is still recommended for external use. Comfrey tea and preparations from the roots are very soothing on injured or irritated skin. ) I would assume that fireweed produces these Alkaloids itself- just as comfrey does. Ellen in Michigan Maurice Cobo wrote: --> Dr. Mohsen M. Ramadan wrote: ---- -> Pollen collected from hives close to these sites should not be offered for human consumption because of high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids present in the pollen and every part of the plant (even dried parts). ---- Thank you for that information, but you did not mentioned what is the source of this agent and how it got to the vegetation. Dr. Mohsen M. Ramadan, can you give us that information if you can ? Thank you, Maurice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:26:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives In-Reply-To: <200108100350.f7A3oN800644@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, Logan, I'm also in East TN and do the same. I have equipment purchase from local beekeepers in white, dark brown and dark green. The latest colors I grabbed at $3 a gallon are light blue and light yellow -- very nice. Home Depot and Lowes always seem to have a large selection. Make sure it is for exterior use, of course, but also avoid anything that claims to help kill insects or is marked as not for use around bees (I've actually seen one or two of these). Oil will probably last longer, latex is easier to repaint. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:21:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: macro photos In-Reply-To: <200108092016.f79KGb815548@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One thought on the economics of taking those bee pics with a digital camera. If you pay $4 a roll for film (24 exp), $6 for developing and prints, $4 to get a CD-Rom created at the same time (ok, these are low prices, but useful for comparison pricing - estimated from that mecca of fine developing, walmart), you are looking at a minimum of $15 a roll (with taxes, not to mentiondrtips to the store). So, that $1,000 digital camera is paid for after 67 rolls of film, or 1600 individual pictures. I'll admit I take quite a few pictures that I delete afterwards (some on-site). But it is not unusual at all to take 100-200 shots when touring a garden or on vacation at an inspiring place. More than I took when using film (when I limited myself to 4-6 rolls a day), bu I also have quite a few good shots mixed in. The good ones I keep, along with any family shots that are one-of-a-kind (even if not perfect), the others I delete. It doesn't take long to pay for even high-end equipment, unless you only take a photo or two at christmas and family re-unions. Not to mention the CD's I've seen that come this way have low quality prints on them. You could save the $4 and scan the ones you like yourslef, at high resolution, but then need a good scanner and a considerable amount of time. I've scanned in quite a few - it didn't take many to decide that the highest resolution was not needed for the purposes I had in mind for most of the prints. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:06:08 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives In-Reply-To: <200108100350.f7A3oN800644@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One approach to exterior wood is to abandon the whole idea of covering it with a waterproof film of paint. Some houses are clad in unpainted wood. What about this approach: 1 infiltrate long-lived antifungal agent (copper naphthenate, e.g. Metalex®) as a solution in turps which soaks into the wood; 2 oil to repel water. One oil I've tried is used engine sump oil. It's not as poisonous as I thought it would be, especially since we forced the oil companies to quit adding lead to the petrol. Some fungi quite seem to like the new less toxic sump oil! Anyone else tried this non-paint approach? R ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:19:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Bottleing Honey In-Reply-To: <200108100354.f7A3sX800690@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Check your state's law with respect to labels. Most require that you completely identify the packer including name, address, and phone as well as the contents, "Honey." Regardless, all those things are useful to have on the label if you want repeat business. As to bottling on a small scale, we found it was helpful to put our honey into a large barrel to settle and to tap off the bottom. Although it sounds like extra work, we tapped from the 55 gal drum into a 5 gallon bucket which also was equipped with a valve on the side near the bottom. We ran the stream from the large barrel through a strainer to catch odd pieces of flotsam (or was it jetsam). By allowing a second settling in the smaller bucket (which was portable) we bottled very clear honey with a minimum of effort and expense. And while I'm at it, may I make a pitch for clean buckets? You should see some of the buckets delivered by keepers who would have their honey extracted. On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Rodney Farrar wrote: > This is my first year to get honey any comments on how to process it. Its > currently in 5 gallons buckets and was put through a strainer (two parts) > before being place in the buckets. Can I now go straight from the buckets to > the bottles? Some of my honey will be sold at the local fairs through our > club, do I need a complete address or is name, town and phone number enough? > > Thanks, > > Rodney in VA > --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:31:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: pollen In-Reply-To: <200108092015.f79KF3815460@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maurice, The PA's are naturally present in the pollen. The fireweed plant "creates" it. Just as these alkaloids are in plants such as comfrey (mostly in the roots) and cause the same type of damage if ingested. This is not a foreign "agent" that is sticking to the pollen. Fireweedi is present in large numbers in other areas and the honey is sold - a recent post on another group said it was very light in color and flavor. -----Original Message----- From: Maurice Cobo --> Dr. Mohsen M. Ramadan wrote: -> Pollen collected from hives close to these sites should not be offered for human consumption because of high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids present in the pollen and every part of the plant (even dried parts). ---- Thank you for that information, but you did not mentioned what is the source of this agent and how it got to the vegetation. Dr. Mohsen M. Ramadan, can you give us that information if you can ? Thank you, Maurice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:46:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: macro photos In-Reply-To: <200108092016.f79KGb815548@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, A good analysis. One problem with the "affordable high-end camera" idea is that anything under $1K is considered a home-use camera by the industry. This targeted group is perceived to want simple, single lens cameras. Not necessarly point and click, but fairly bulletproof, with few things to lose track of. The pro-shooter wants to use existing lenses - so the nikon, contax (6 megapixels!) and fuji systems accomodate that, but at a price (usually $3k and up). Many of us have lenses, from the days before the simple SLR's used now, but are not true professionals - it is hard to justify that $3k camera body (and a newer, better one will be out next year, guaranteed, no matter your choice). One retrofit I recently saw is a film-substitute that captures images to digital film. It only works with selected models, all high-end professional type equipment. I think the resolution for this product is about 2 megapixels, currently. 2 megapixels or just a bit more, at full resolution and stored as a tiff, should produce prints at 8x10 that are comparable to film. poster-size requires higher res - 3mp might be enough, but the new 5 and 6 mp systems should do just fine. Of course, you'll need that 512MB film cartidge to store that size pictures on. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:11:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives In-Reply-To: <200108100347.f7A3lv800596@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII And if you mix all the colors you are able to buy into one batch of your own, it will tend toward dirt brown or tan. On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, Logan VanLeigh wrote: > I use high-quality, off-color exterior latex in E TN. Buy it at stores > that custom mix paints and occasionally get the color wrong. Very > cheap, but excellent paint. Get some really funky colors sometimes, but > the bees don't mind. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 04:55:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines (Periodic Post) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Anyone and everyone with interest in bees is welcome to join. We do, however, have rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than most on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. We would like to point out to new members (and remind long-time members) that all our rules, including the sign-on messages and access to our FAQ can be found in one easy-to-use page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L. The page also provides links to enable you to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel immediately your BEE-L membership. IMPORTANT: Please visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L periodically to review our guidelines and especially before posting to the list. Please also, before posting basic questions, do a quick search of the archives (at the same page) to see if there are answers there. If not, or you are not satisfied with the answers, then by all means post your question to the list. If you post an article to BEE-L and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours, you will also find information there on what might have happened. There are more possibilities than simple rejection by moderators. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 07:50:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Oland wrote: > > Maurice, > > The PA's are naturally present in the pollen. The fireweed plant > "creates" it. Just as these alkaloids are in plants such as comfrey > (mostly in the roots) and cause the same type of damage if ingested. > This is not a foreign "agent" that is sticking to the pollen. Fireweedi > is present in large numbers in other areas and the honey is sold - a > recent post on another group said it was very light in color and flavor. I wondered just what the dosage is to create problems. The NIH has a useful site on toxic chemicals, and they had this concerning Reddelline, which came under my search for PA. http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/cgi/iH_Indexes/ALL_SRCH/iH_ALL_SRCH_Frames.html The most interesting part is that it is also found in honey. So should all honey and pollen not be sold/eaten if it it is collected from any area where these plants, like fireweed, are present, since they will probably have PA? Which is where we get back to dosage. What is the flowering period of the plant? What other plants are in competition at the time so what is the actual concentration of PA? There are many questions that seem to need answers, unless we are talking zero tolerance, then what other plants have toxic pollen/nectar if we are going to define toxic by the large dosage tests run in the lab? There are chemicals in many foods that are either toxic or carcinogens by that test, yet in the amounts present in the foods, are harmless or even beneficial. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 23:38:19 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Owen Watson Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives In-Reply-To: <200108100952.f7A9qk807897@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" This is an interesting approach. There are a couple of things I've been told about paint: 1. It stops water from getting in 2. It stops wood rot (perhaps due to (1) 3. Water-based paint allows hives to "breathe" which I take it means that water vapour can travel from the inside thru the wood to the outside. However, 3 implies that the water traffic could be both ways (asymmetric water flows are only claimed by Goretex, I think). What about hives made out of a non-rot wood such as cedar? > One approach to exterior wood is to abandon the whole idea of >covering it with a waterproof film of paint. Some houses are clad in >unpainted wood. What about this approach: -- --Owen Watson --at home in Wellington, New Zealand --Don't reply to erewhon@rsnz.govt.nz -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 04:33:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Most durable paint for hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Karen & All, > Oil will probably last longer, latex is easier to repaint. Myself and others have had trouble with oil base peeling so we avoid using oil base. I have also had trouble with low quality paints (like those sold in 5 gallon buckets at farm stores for fence & barn) creating a *chalking* effect which gets on clothes and gloves. I also use mismatches but only from the higher priced paints when I can find those. When you use lighter colors the different colors don't jump right out at you. I have got a friend which uses the brighter, gloss mismatches and his yards are easy to see. I also have mixed five different gallons of mismatch *light * colors together in a five gallon pail to get more uniform colors through out the yards. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. I also use primer on everything. "If its worth painting it's worth a coat of primer". Still have to watch for sales on primer as no mismatches in the primer department! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 07:53:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: Gene Pool? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Bob & Liz 08/09/01 03:44PM >>> snip --- Martin what percentage of open mated daughters of SMR queens would carry the same amount of SMR as the breeder queen. 25%- 50%-75%-100%? snip --- That is a good question. Open mating queens mate with somewhere between 15 and 25 drones. Some of those may be the sons of SMR queens. As drones carry only their mother's genetic information all SMR queens make 'SMR' drones. Obviously the offspring of an SMR drone and queen should be SMR, but what I cannot answer since I do not know whether or not the SMR trait is recessive or dominant, is whether the offspring of an SMR queen and non-SMR drone will be SMR or not. Is the trait recessive then no, if dominant, then yes. I did a brief search of the web pages describing SMR bees and all I found was that it is a heritable trait, but not whether or not it is dominant or recessive. The statement "Fortunately, the trait is widespread in the U.S. honey bee population and so is readily available in the present gene pool" (taken from an extract of the Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter, APIS and can be found at the site http://www.ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/newsapis/a! pis0104.html#SecF) would lead me to believe that it is a recessive trait. If it were dominant then we would most likely all have SMR bees by now (well, at least if we had let natural selection run its course and not treated for varroa...but that is only speculation). Therefore open mated queens would only give SMR offspring in the same proportion as there are SMR drones to mate with. One great aspect of bee breeding is that all drones of SMR queens carry the SMR traits. So once one has a good proportion of SMR hives, many SMR queens are mating with SMR drones and given natural selection the frequency of the SMR trait should increase rather rapidly. Again under artificial selection and instrumental insemination with only SMR-bearing sperm the breeding will be much faster. If the SMR trait is truly widespread in America then that is very good news. Martin Damus ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:47:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > I wondered just what the dosage is to create problems. The NIH has a > useful site on toxic chemicals, and they had this concerning Reddelline, > which came under my search for PA. > > http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/cgi/iH_Indexes/ALL_SRCH/iH_ALL_SRCH_Frames.html Sorry. This just gives an empty search frame. The base site is http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/ and search for pyrrolizidine alkaloids and select the TOX-27 Riddelliine . (I also noted that I left out an i in Riddelliine). Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:13:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Just a comment on this thread. The fireweed mentioned by Dr Ramadan is not, repeat not the same plant we call fireweed here in MN or in the western US or Alaska and Canada. This is the usual source of fireweed honey. One of the confusing things about common names. Dr Ramadan did include the scientific name of the plant he was refering to in his orginal post and noted that it occured in tropical or subtropical areas in the pacific basin. The fireweed that produces that very light honey from North America occurs in cool temperate or cooler climates. blane >>> koland@STAFFINGTECH.COM 08/10/01 12:31AM >>> Maurice, The PA's are naturally present in the pollen. The fireweed plant "creates" it. Just as these alkaloids are in plants such as comfrey (mostly in the roots) and cause the same type of damage if ingested. This is not a foreign "agent" that is sticking to the pollen. Fireweedi is present in large numbers in other areas and the honey is sold - a recent post on another group said it was very light in color and flavor. -----Original Message----- From: Maurice Cobo --> Dr. Mohsen M. Ramadan wrote: -> Pollen collected from hives close to these sites should not be offered for human consumption because of high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids present in the pollen and every part of the plant (even dried parts). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:05:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stephen Augustine Subject: Fireweed (was pollen) In-Reply-To: <200108100955.f7A9to807989@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just in case there is any confusion regarding the initial post on "fireweed" Dr. Ramadan was referring to "Senecio madagascariensis" which is a yellow flower that is a member of the daisy family (it even looks like a daisy) and is found in large areas in Australia. The "fireweed" mentioned most commonly in the U.S. as a honey plant is "Epilobium augustifolium" which has many pinky purple flowers on a single stalk. Epilobium is common in much of the Pacific Northwest of the U.S. where deforestation has occurred or a fire has recently cleared trees. Bees make a truly premium honey from it. As far as I know the plant does not contain any toxins and Native Americans even used the leaves and flowers to make tea. Some URLs: Senecio: http://nb.au.com/nswweedsoc/NoxiousWeeds/Fireweed.html Epilobium: http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/wilderness/wildflowers/fireweed.htm Stephen Augustine Bees By The Bay >The PA's are naturally present in the pollen. The fireweed plant >"creates" it. Just as these alkaloids are in plants such as comfrey >(mostly in the roots) and cause the same type of damage if ingested. >This is not a foreign "agent" that is sticking to the pollen. Fireweedi >is present in large numbers in other areas and the honey is sold - a >recent post on another group said it was very light in color and flavor. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:35:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives In-Reply-To: <200108101159.f7ABxf810084@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Owen, Cedar might be slightly toxic to the bees, but would keep out wax moths - assuming you meant easter red cedar (we use it to line closets). western cedar is different, but either are expensive. water exchange is ok, you want interior to absorb excess moisture and have that leave the wood. This is generally a slight amount of moisture, and some is needed to prevent the wood from excess drying, which would lead to splitting, while its evaporation helps prevent mold and fungi. The exterior paint is to prevent large amounts of water from penetrating during rain, sleet, snow, etc.... In the winter here, it can rain for days on end, with dips into the upper 20's at night. If too much water gets into the exterior, the freezing can cause significant damage (easily seen on an abandonded hive I am rehabilitating - it was unpainted). In other areas, and here in the summer, the main enemy is the sun - any paint helps to protect against that. Personally, I use high quality latex that the store wants to get rid of. There is always a good selection of $20-$30 paint marked down to less than $4 here (let's here it for high school workers!). I don't mix the colors, so different hives are different mixes of colors (most of which are in the range that bees can see), assisting bees with orientation. Not to mention making the landscape a little more interesting. Note: The hives are not visible from other property, must trespass to get to our field and see them. The are against a wood row for wind protection and summer pm shade, to to "blend in", they would have to be very dark brown or green. White is the most visible choice I could make. Not that I worry, we are zoned agricultural and the bees are on the land use application. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:48:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives In South Africa, probably the most durable paint for hives is branded Everbond. It's UV-resistant and waterproof, and typically used, for example, to seal joins on roofs and to seal koi ponds, etc. I use it on untreated wood and it goes on like a disease and maintains a rubbery kind of texture. Given a choice, I buy woodenware that has been hot-dipped with creosote. This must be the single best long-term way to protect bee furniture. CCA treatment is almost as good, but needs subsequent painting to counter the dryness it infests the wood with. I also use Everbond to seal jumbo sugar syrup feeders - and it works like a charm. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 13:48:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Milt Lathan Subject: Hobbyist Extractor reviews/recommendations About 25 years ago, I read an article that compared a few simple extractors - has anyone seen one recently? TIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:18:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vital Gaudreau Subject: Cedar vs wax moths Item 036750 dated 01/08/10 10:35 Re: Most durable paint for hives Karen Oland wrote: "Cedar might be toxic to the bees, but would keep out wax moths - assuming you meant easter red cedar....." I recall from an old beekeeper who used to put small fresh cedar branches between supers to keep wax moths away from his supers during the whole storage period right after extraction....supers were stored with some honey remaining in it. Could someone explain how this theory works(against wax moth)... or is it one of those things again...? I am sure that quite a lot of beekeepers are interested in keeping wax moths away from their frames. Secondly, could you please also explain how cedar might be toxic to bees... Many thanks Vital Gaudreau Sainte-Therese, Quebec, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:51:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: macro photos In-Reply-To: <200108100956.f7A9uG808017@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Karen wrote: anything under $1K is considered a home-use camera by the industry I agree, but that's still a lot of money. My point is that dollar for dollar, the initial price of digital cameras are still inflated compared to comparable film cameras, when you take into account the versatility and quality of lenses, etc. No doubt that the film-related costs provide a fast catch-up - which is why I see film cameras disappearing from day to day use. And, the processing labs get away from expensive and environmentally unfriendly chemicals (that will be a major driver of the switchover). Several of the main brand camera folks are slowly moving towards affordable camera bodies with the full range of lenses, camera controls, etc. that we are used to having with the better SLRs. My only purpose is to point out the trade-offs at this time. If you have a really good SLR and assortment of lenses and then spend $1000 on a digital camera, you may be disappointed. For one thing, even the best of these digital cameras (and I've used several of the major brands) tend to distort images (look at vertical lines) badly. That would be unacceptable on even a moderately priced SLR. On the other hand, the digital cameras keep changing, almost every 6 months. So, they are catching up. And, for snapshots, they are already there. But if you are an advanced photographer, you may wish to wait it out a bit longer. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:13:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Macro photos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In a couple postings, Jerry Bromenshenk provided very good advice about retaining a standard camera (with various lenses) for close-up work. Consider also the following: Anyone who has a good camera and macro lens can buy a teleconverter instead of bellows to increase the size of image photographed. I have used both a 2X and 3X teleconverter and have had no problems. Of course, one has to use flash with such great magnification. Bright sunlight or single flash has a problem already noted --- the presence of a dark shadow. To counter that, I used a "Macrobracket" attachment to the camera. The end of one arm (I chose the left) had a single simple flash; the other end had the same type of flash covered with a single layer of velum. That combination permitted a full and a fill-in flash simultaneously and yielded a great picture. Naturally, one has to calculate the amount of exposure time, a task much easier with teleconverters than with bellows. By using slide film, one gets very sharp pictures already ready for slide presentations. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "The history of science teaches us that each time we think * that we have it all figured out, nature has a radical surprise * in store for us that requires significant and sometimes drastic * changes in how we think the world works." * * Brian Greene (1999:373) * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:36:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Gene Pool? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Martin & All, Thanks to Martin for his reply. If you look at the Baton Rouge bee lab web site you can see the method used to find SMR. Very labor intensive and time consuming. http://msa.ars.usda.gov/la/btn/hbb/jwh/SMRD/SMRD.htm We received a letter today from Dr.Harbo showing a problem which has risen with the first batch of SMR queens. I will go into detail later when I have read the letter. The letter came to our other queen rearing location. My partner in queen raising received the letter about a hour ago and called to tell me what John had said. Our queens have done excellent and we have not noted the problem Dr. Harbo talks about. The good news in the letter is the open mated daughters of the II queens are all showing degrees of SMR. My partner and I were impressed to receive a letter from Dr.Harbo about his progress and changes he is making in his program to improve the queens. Honesty will get Dr. Harbo my support. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Dr. Harbo explains his process at the above site. Even with my level of beekeeping skills the process is complex. Quite a bit of the work involves the microscope. After all Dr. Harbo is looking at the reproduction of a mite the size of a pencil point. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:40:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Cedar vs wax moths In-Reply-To: <200108101808.f7AI84819509@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In theory, the red cedar contains compounds that are being continually released into the air, which are toxic to moth larvae (hence, might be to bees). So, a cedar lined closet or clothes chest, prevents your clothes from being eaten by the critters. A second theory is that the smell of the cedar compounds is repellant to the moths, so they go somewhere else to lay eggs (say, your drapes), hence your clothes are protected - here there would be no danger to the bees, presuming they like the smell (people generally do). I've seen some recent studies that claim the whole thing is a waste of money -- of course, they recommend some commercial wax larvae killer be applied to clothes. Personally, I'd rather smell the cedar and buy a new sweater now and then. -K ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:09:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Martin Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, I live in Central Florida. As you may know, it rains every afternoon and is very humid during the summer months. It is cool and dry during the winter months. In Florida we first paint all wooden ware, inside and outside, with Copper R Tox which is an oil based sealant. After that dries for 24 hours we paint only the outside of all wooden ware as follows: 1. One coat of exterior oil base paint. Let dry for 24 hours. 2. Two coats of exterior latex paint. Many commercial beekeepers treat their wooden ware with Copper R Tox and then dip the wooden ware in parafin. I hope this information is of help. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 19:39:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Cedar vs wax moths In-Reply-To: <200108101807.f7AI7C819491@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There have been several replies to the original question. As you will see, without the scientific names, there can be confusion about the properties of any plant which has "common" or regional names. In general, where they're known, I believe the scientific name should be provided along with the common name. With respect to Cedar: INCENSE CEDAR http://www.orst.edu/instruct/for241/con/spp/icdrspp.html incense-cedar (Calocedrus decurrens) or http://www.enature.com/fieldguide/showSpeciesFT.asp?fotogID=1005&curPageNum=15 Calocedrus (Libocedrus) decurrens Family: Cypress Photo: http://www.mcquesten.com/mcquesten/cedar-pro/boards-pic-large.JPG WESTERN RED CEDAR http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/wilderness/forest/westred.htm thuja plicata Photo: http://www.bearcreeklumber.com/productimagepages/wrc/panandpat/wrcpptandg.html EASTERN RED CEDAR http://www.cedarusa.com/newpage2.html or Aromatic Red Cedar Juniperus Virgiania Photo: http://www.cedarusa.com/images/pix/grain.jpg Even though the California/Oregon "Incense Cedar" sounds as though it should be the most pungent, Eastern Red Cedar is what commonly lines chests and closets. Aside from its cost, I suspect it is too strong to be tolerated by bees. Western Red Cedar is resistant to rot, smells nice but is not too pungent. Don't know whether it would have any effect on moths. It is not as rot resistant as Redwood. Use screws and glue to put any hive constructed with WRC. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:45:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Fireweed (was pollen) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen Augustine wrote: > > Just in case there is any confusion regarding the initial post on > "fireweed" Dr. Ramadan was referring to "Senecio madagascariensis" Before we file this away as a problem for the Aussies to worry about... Some info from another site: http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap42.html Quote ( a small part and edited) 5. Associated Foods: The plants most frequently implicated in pyrrolizidine poisoning are members of the Borginaceae, Compositae, and Leguminosae families. Consumption of the alkaloid-containing plants as food, contaminants of food, or as medicinals has occurred. Reports of acute poisoning in the United States among humans are relatively rare. Most result from the use of medicinal preparations as home remedies. However, intoxications of range animals sometimes occur in areas under drought stress, where plants containing alkaloids are common. Milk from dairy animals can become contaminated with the alkaloids, and alkaloids have been found in the honey collected by bees foraging on toxic plants. Mass human poisonings have occurred in other countries when cereal crops used to prepare food were contaminated with seeds containing pyrrolizidine alkaloid. 8. Target Population: All humans are believed to be susceptible to the hepatotoxic pyrrolizidine alkaloids. Home remedies and consumption of herbal teas in large quantities can be a risk factor and are the most likely causes of alkaloid poisonings in the United States. Unquote I could not find any link to pollen as one of the problem areas. Honey was specifically mentioned in two of the toxicology reports as containing PA but were not implicated as causing any long term problems. Granted that not all plants in the noted families have PA, but the families are large and have many common plants that are in my yard, like Borage, sunflowers and the like. The problem is that even though they may have PA it can be isolated in a plant part, such as the root, or can be throughout the plant, but in limited quantities. Most toxic responses are from teas made from the plants, not the honey or pollen. So the amounts in both are relatively small and diluted by the other plants the bees forage from. Plus, it takes a bit more work to get the toxic levels needed to do damage, like make teas and drink them over an extended period. Many of these plants were valued for their medicinal properties before our cornucopia of modern medicines. Maybe they were beneficial in low doses. They are harmful in large doses. Like Broccoli. I appreciate warnings about toxic substances in plants, but I think a bit more clarification as to actual toxic levels in pollen and honey are needed before we stigmatize them as toxic or even to have caution if they forage in an area that has plants containing PA or any other alkaloids or toxins. We need a few more facts. Can you imagine what this kind of alarm would do to a country's honey industry if used by the wrong people? Just read what PA can do. It is frightening. Does any industry want a scare like Alar on apples. Which was really no problem but still shut down many in the apple industry. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 04:23:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: cedar vs. wax moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Yarnell writes: Western Red Cedar is resistant to rot, smells nice but is not too pungent. Don't know whether it would have any effect on moths. It is not as rot resistant as Redwood. Use screws and glue to put any hive constructed with WRC. Why the screws? My hives are cedar - don't know what sort, though I could doubtless find out. If there's any reason for using screws, I need to change my method of construction. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 23:25:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: New Way to Harvest Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit August Smithsonian Magazine http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues01/aug01/honey.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 07:55:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives (Copper R Tox) In-Reply-To: <200108110458.f7B4wW810768@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Martin wrote: > In Florida we first paint all wooden ware, inside and outside, > with Copper R Tox which is an oil based sealant. The name sounds as though this is is one of the copper based wood preservatives. Are there no toxicity issues with this? This product may not be available here under the same brand name. Can you tell me what the active ingredient(s) are? > After that dries for 24 hours we paint > only the outside of all wooden ware as follows: > > 1. One coat of exterior oil base paint. Let dry for 24 hours. > 2. Two coats of exterior latex paint. I don't know a lot about paint. Could you tell me the advantages of layering latex over top of an oil based paint? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 07:32:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Gene Pool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchly compares two attitudes, that of importing bees to contribute to variability in the gene pool and that of using local strains of bees. As he suggests they can both be right in the correct circumstances. In a place where there are no native bees then all the genes are imported. None is acclimatised at first to local conditions. Therefore it makes sense to import genes from as many places as possible and then leave them alone to select themselves locally to suit local conditions. Where there are native bees then this selection process can be assumed to have been achieved naturally aeons ago. Without imports you will find local strains suited to local conditions with enough variability to cope with most things nature can throw at them (apart from fire and flood). Where a local strain is established and a different strain of the same race is introduced there should be full compatability and perhaps some improvement in brood pattern if there has been some spottiness due to inbreeding. On the other hand if a different race is introduced then the heterosis or "hybrid vigour" effect can be expected. This may manifest itself for the first season in a larger brood nest, more honey gathering and better health but there is a probability also of better defensiveness ie. bad temper. Some crosses are worse than others in this respect. So the advice is: if you have a local strain of bees that is doing ok don't rock the boat and to mangle metaphors don't open Pandora's box just because the grass is greener. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 08:57:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Hughes Subject: Bees gnawing wood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over the years I have found signs of gnawing on my woodenware. Example once in the fall a few years ago I placed a rat stick in the wrong way leaving no entrance. When I checked the colony in the spring I found my mistake, but there was a entrance grawed through the rat stick. I have also found signs of grawing where the boxes do not meet well and the bees start using this gap as an entrance. Am I jumping to a wrong conclustion? Bill Hughes The Apiaries of Bill And Joyce Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:04:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Most of my deep hive bodies are 10 years or more old with just exterior latex every five or more years. I have found, in my limited experience, that it is not the paint that causes premature aging as much as damage to the top or bottom edges that limits the life of a box, since once there is any opening, the bees tend to increase its size to provide another opening. Duct tape is a great life extender in these cases. Or trimming the top and bottom to make a medium or shallow super. The rest of the wood is fine. Just wonder if that is only my experience or it is more universal- that paint is not the problem but other factors like damage in handling and damage by the bees which really limits the life of a box. My shallow supers are fine and look like they could go forever and most have only their initial coat of latex. It is just the deeps that get the wear and tear from hive tool and bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:10:27 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees gnawing wood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I use Bro. Adam type feeders with a 25 mm hole through the central block. The inner surface of these holes is quite rough and fibrous (particularly after being hosed down for cleaning). The bees chew these fibres off and carry them through the hive and chuck them out of the entrance. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 14:46:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Martin Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives (Copper R Tox) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, The product is actualy spelled Cop-R-Tox. It is penetrating liquid copper. The active ingredient is copper naphthenate 20%. It is manufactured by Mobile Paint MFG. Co., Inc., Theodore, Alabama 36590. It is recommended as the initial treatment for new unpainted wood by Dadant & Son, Inc., Hamilton, IL. Their websit is, www.dadant.com. After the Cop-R-Tox has dried for 25 hours you can apply latex directly and avoid the oil based paint set. Many high grade exterior paints suggest that you apply their oil based primer before applying the latex. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 08:55:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Most durable paint for hives (Copper R Tox) In-Reply-To: <200108111322.f7BDMP825781@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Frank and All: >The name sounds as though this is is one of the copper based wood >preservatives. Are there no toxicity issues with this? Although I use a different brand, I believe the active ingredient is copper napthenate. I am a bit ashamed that I can not give you any authoritative answer to your question on toxicity, since I use quite a lot of this. I buy it in 20 litre pails of 8% concentration. We mix it with varsol and raw linseed oil and dip woodenware. For stands we use 2% copper and for supers we mix it to 1%. I can give you the following information FWIW: The Mann Lake bee supply company sells it for use on bee equipment (recommending 1% on supers I believe, you would have to check their catalog). It is one of the least toxic wood perservatives, being allowed on some types of agricultural wood products, including some greenhouse wood. In my experience it is not obnoxious on your skin (although we use rubber aprons and long gloves when dipping, but do it for a long period of time and some splashing is inevitable). In my former work as a dairy farmer I used a product of the same ingredient (copper napthenate), much more concentrated (37.5 %) , called Koppertox I believe, which we applied directly and undiluted to the feet and wounds of cows for hoofrot and skin/wound treatment. I would also get this very concentrated liquid on my skin sometimes, as some cows rebel vigorously to having their wounded tender feet attended to. I never noticed any ill effects. regards Stan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:24:51 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: cedar vs. wax moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Robert > Why the screws? Screws are so innexpensive these days that they can be used for hive assembly and will increase the time between maintenance. They hold the boxes tighter and squarer than nails and can be tweaked tighter after a few years. The pozidrive screws that I use cost between £1.00 per 1000 and up to £10.00 per 1000 for the largest sizes. I also dip each screw in home made petroleum jelly which saves on time and battery power for the electric screwdriver. With cedar no countersinking is required as the screws will pull in flush Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 13:41:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Most durable paint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm suprised no one has mentioned varnish. I'm plagued with dry rot on my hand-me-down hives, especially on Guam, so I use spar varnish or external polyurethene on the horizontal surfaces - the mating surfaces between hive bodies and the rabbets - and end grain on the box joints. Those are the areas which hold moisture and dry slowly. I also varnish the overhanging ends of the frame top bars on Guam. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:19:38 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: paint for hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've wanted to get away from using environmentally toxic stuff, like paint, on my hives and recently learned of a product advertised as a non-toxic wood preservative. It's called LifeTime Wood Treatment and is distributed by a reputable company called Natural Insect Control in Ontario, Canada. I spoke to the owner and she says she's been using it on outdoor, above-ground wood for 7 years or so and is happy with it so far. The company that makes the stuff - Valhalla Wood Preservatives in Calgary, Alberta - claims in their literature that the product has been used by Parks Canada for over 8 years in several national parks, the British Columbia Ministry of Transportation approved the use of LifeTime for signage, the City of Calgary is using it for roadside sound barriers, and the Nova Scotia government is testing it on picnic tables in Provincial Parks. It's claimed to be made from natural ingredients. The price is affordable and it's available in stores across Canada or by mail order from Natural Insect Control. I purchased some and did a picnic table and some hive boxes. There is no smell to it and wood turns a weathered gray within a few minutes of application. Natural Insect Control: www.natural-insect-control.com Sharon Labchuk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:36:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Coldiron Subject: Extractor and Uncapper Needed Hello Group, I'm in the market for some equipment. I need an extractor which can handle 40 to 60 medium frames and a good uncapper. While price is important, quality is more so to me. I'd appreciate some recommendations on what to, and what not to, get. Used equipment will do just fine if it's in good shape. I live in west Texas around Midland/Odessa and Big Spring. Thanks for your help Mark If what you're doing seems too hard..., You're probably doing it wrong. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:41:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Misleading Article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The media is at it again- There is a small article in "Woman's World", magazine, 08/21/01 issue, called-"Warning It's Bee Season" that links honey bee behavior to that of wasps and hornets-that of picnic invaders, etc. The e-mail address of the magazine is dearww@aol.com if anyone would like to protest. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:37:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Brandon Subject: Tobacco leaves I have found that by placing a layer of tobacco leaves between boxes of brood comb and placing a lid on top, I no longer have probloms with wax moth ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:19:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Gene Pool Well, I just got back from putting my grafted pure bred SMR larvae into finnishing off hives. It'll be interesting to see what happens. I'd like to keep diversity, but one sample of drone brood from my trusty rusty survival of the fittest local bees had an average 12 mites per larva. And the larvae looked very fat and smug. I wonder though, I got a letter like others of you from Dr. Harbo, and do you guys and gals think that the open mated daughters will also have a shorter life span than other bees? I'm wondering if I'll have to re-queen again in 6 months or so. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:20:43 +0800 Reply-To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew and Judy Weinert Subject: Comb honey frames In-Reply-To: <200108090401.f7940v822657@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have recently seen in Australia, comb honey presented in clear plastic square boxes. It appears as though the comb is drawn in the plastic box. Can anyone tell me who makes them and where they are available from in Australia. Thanks Andrew & Judy Weinert 69 Lawler St North Perth Western Australia 6006 phone +61 (0)8 9443 1463 aweinert@tpgi.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Aug 0101 00:00:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Gene Pool I expect the SMR daughter queens to have a normal life expectancy. The problem is with the breeder queens.Being inbred and II to concentrate the SMR trait causes the bees to tend to supercede them.One of mine laid a few hundred scattered eggs and was immediately superceded.Her daughter is laying a beautiful solid brood pattern.Outcrossing with your own stock removes the inbreeding problem.By the way,I think I remember reading that the SMR trait doesnt apply to drone brood,that varroa would still be able to reproduce there.No problem there.Its when varroa jumps to the worker brood that we see all the stress problems(viruses and dead hives)I guess if you had 5lbs ticks crawling on your back you would feel kind of stressed out too.So I assume the presence of mites in drone brood does not mean that your survivor stock isnt SMR.I also think we should put in treatments for a while to protect the drone brood until we get this trait established(next springs drones will carry the ball) My thinking on this SMR trait is that its going to be good to have as much of it out there as possible when our chemical control no longer works.I dont think there will be a 'big crash'but lots of small die offs like we have been having since the mites first arrived.Theoretically survivors are out there and adding there genes to the pool.Harbos work gives us a chance to speed up this process. Mike --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:25:26 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: "alar scare" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill Truesdell wrote: >Does any industry want a scare like Alar on apples. Which was really no problem >but still shut down many in the apple industry. Can't let this one pass. Alar was no problem? The apple industry hired the notorious and powerful PR firm, Hill & Knowlton, to spin the 'alar scare' myth - a myth perpetuated to this day by sloppy journalists and a misinformed public. There was plenty of evidence and government concern long before 60 Minutes broke the alar story. The 'alar scare' myth is a good example of how effective the PR industry is, and points to the need to be ever vigilant about where our information comes from and who has paid to produce the information. The Centre for Media and Democracy has a great web page - PR Watch - which should be a must read for all conscious humans. http://www.prwatch.org/index.html Check the article on the Environmental Working Group web page for the full alar story. Following is an excerpt: http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/Alar/alar.html "why does the news media continue to repeat the myths and misconceptions of Alar? The answer is spin - a well-financed campaign, continuing to this day, by the food and chemical industries to discredit the Alar story and rewrite history. The key player in the campaign is the American Council on Science and Health and its president, Elizabeth Whelan. Soon after the Alar story broke on 60 Minutes, the apple industry began a campaign to discredit it, paying the public relations giant Hill & Knowlton more than $1 million for ads claiming children would have to eat "a boxcar load" of apples a day to be at risk." Sharon Labchuk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:09:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Re: "alar scare" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Labchuk wrote: > > Can't let this one pass. Alar was no problem? The apple industry hired > the notorious and powerful PR firm, Hill & Knowlton, to spin the 'alar > scare' myth - a myth perpetuated to this day by sloppy journalists And as a Chemical Engineer and Environmental Engineer I have yet to see serious, scientific evidence presented in a refereed journal outlining the real problems with Alar. All I've ever seen is apologetics and accusations by issue-advocacy groups and their followers. Logan VanLeigh ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:53:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: "alar scare" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Labchuk wrote: > The 'alar scare' myth is a good example of how effective the PR industry > is, and points to the need to be ever vigilant about where our information > comes from and who has paid to produce the information. > > The Centre for Media and Democracy has a great web page - PR Watch - which > should be a must read for all conscious humans. > > http://www.prwatch.org/index.html > http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/Alar/alar.html Checked them both and I guess it depends on what you what to believe. I was not convinced by either and have not changed my mind. Both sites are cut from the same cloth and could be tarred with the same brush they use against the Apple growers. They are more propaganda than science, but that is the case with most who have an agenda they wish to support. Also, I suspect any organizations that have Jeremy Rifkin as a supporter. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 13:59:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Organization: N.C. Cooperative Extension Service Subject: honey testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello; I am interested in information on honey testing for export markets - practical information - what is the minimum analysis required by importers, what are the differences between EU and US requirements, what are the costs, and who are the reputable labs. Any information will be appreciated. Bill Lord -- North Carolina State University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences North Carolina Cooperative Extension E-Mail : william_lord@ncsu.edu Phone : 919-496-3344 Fax : 919-496-0222 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 23:53:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Gene Pool? Comments: To: Gavin Ramsay In-Reply-To: <200108090004.f7904q814792@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200108090004.f7904q814792@listserv.albany.edu>, Gavin Ramsay writes >So, if James Kilty prefers to work with local strains he has the advantage >of starting with genetic material already adapted to local conditions and >just has to select for traits which he wishes to bring out in that kind of >genetic background. The big problem is that the populations you start with >are less likely to contain the full range of genetic variation found in the >honeybee so you may miss something, and you don't get the hybrid vigour >which can be found in inter-strain matings. Of course local bees may >already be heavily selected for something really useful due to past >epidemics and associated heavy losses - let's speculate tracheal mite >resistance - and exotic material may not have this. > >Martin Dumas liked variability. That can be good too - increasing hybrid >vigour and providing more genes in the genepool from which the perfect bee >may emerge, at the expense of a degree of unpredictability. So yes, you >were right - both are correct! I have left both chunks in as they are relevant. My original post referred to conditions in Ireland and Britain (in answer to Tom's query), which Martin and others also referred to as having good genetic diversity. In fact, we may be advantaged to a degree in Ireland and the harsher parts of Britain because we have the combination of a hardy race naturalised over millennia, a number of imported races and severe natural selection continually imposed on all of us who rely on open mating for our requeening - that is most beekeepers around here. Our weather pattern encourages all-weather flying capabilities so queens mating successfully will have mated with all-weather drones (I have never seen a non-black drone in any of my colonies). Even this good spring doesn't show any evidence of Italian imports in the new queens' colonies. So, perhaps we have the best of both worlds argued above and in several posts. The important point in my original post was regarding the purchase of SMR selected bees from elsewhere, however excellent the work done in developing a proven strain. It would, IMHO be a sad day if we suddenly went over to one strain from another continent, especially when it has been argued that there is a poor gene pool there, when we could select out our own SMR bees from a proven good gene pool. If each region did this with its own race, where there was a good gene pool, then we would all progress. Our local bees are particularly well adapted to our conditions. Normally we would expect the main honey crop from summer honey, but summer was poor, just a few good days in late July. Spring was excellent and many colonies were strong even though they are A.m.m. in the most part (IMO). Unlike the typical A.m.m. they build up well in our long early mild spring, and were well placed to capitalise on the abundant sycamore and hawthorn. I doubt if we could readily reproduce that in an import. The flip side of this was the high proportion of colonies trying to supersede in the autumn of last year which had atrocious weather - resulting in 20% drone layers in spring! So, those particular ones were selected out. It is usually a useful character. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 04:27:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Quick-and-Dirty Varroa Resistance In-Reply-To: <200108140937.f7E9bJQ19297@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...The important point in my original post was regarding the > purchase of SMR selected bees from elsewhere, however excellent the work > done in developing a proven strain. It would, IMHO be a sad day if we > suddenly went over to one strain from another continent, especially when > it has been argued that there is a poor gene pool there, when we could > select out our own SMR bees from a proven good gene pool... It seems to me that it is possible for operators or regions with hundreds of hives to select for bees that exhibit resistance to varroa mites in any population while continuing to treat the hives routinely for varroa. The cost and effort need not be great, and the local genetics would be largely preserved. It also seems to me that this selection can be accomplished by merely placing a sticky board under every hive at time of treatment and looking for hives that have fewer mites falling compared to equivalent hives nearby. The range of mite loads should be obvious from a quick glance at the sticky boards. Typically, some boards are black with mites and some have many fewer mites, while most are average in density. There may be more reasons for the variation than simply the nature of the bees in the hive, but I should think that any tendency for mite resistance would be captured by noting the best ten percent (along with some other, hopefully irrelevant, effects). After eliminating hives that obviously had an unusual history like a broodless period or other anomalies and those which did not produce well, ten percent or so of the total hives could be removed to breeding yards for further consideration. Conversely, perhaps the hives which show the highest mite levels should be eliminated from the breeding pool by requeening or making treated nucs. This should reduce, over time, a potential mite reservoir in the locale and also reduce the number of local drones carrying the undesirable trait. We had amazing results in breeding out chalkbrood using a similar quick-and-dirty selection -- as have others who have tried it. This is a quick-and-dirty method, but IMO should give some obvious and useful improvement in mite tolerance and reduce need for treatment. The improvement may be quite quick at first while the variation in the characteristic is high in the population, however any initial high rate of improvement may slacken over years, unless this method is augmented or replaced by more careful and focused selection techniques. allen