From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:56 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A67624ADC7 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03Fjr9l008596 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03Fjr9l008596@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:54 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0109B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 108693 Lines: 2156 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:26:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: re- reasons why beekeepers trucks are never stolen. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did anyone mention that the fuel gage doesn't work! I hate those trucks with gages that always show full! BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html > > you could only cruise in fourth if you 1) were empty, 2) had a level or > downhill road, and 3) had the wind behind you. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:27:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Subject: Raising Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried this on another group, but didn't get much response. Maybe I'll have better luck here. I sure hope so. :-) It'll be time to requeen soon here in west Texas. I would like to try to raise my own queens. I've heard of some different kits that are available, but don't know which one is the best for me. I'm fairly new at this whole thing, but am working towards commercial beekeeping. I would appreciate any suggestions or comments on the best way to raise my own queens and what kit or technique to use. Thanks Mark Horse sense is just stable thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 08:52:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Bees in Elizabethan England Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A Description of Elizabethan England. http://www.bartleby.com/35/3/14.html As concerning bees, I think it good to remember that, whereas some ancient writers affirm it to be a commodity wanting in our island, it is now found to be nothing so. In old times peradventure we had none indeed; but in my days there is such plenty of them in manner everywhere that in some uplandish towns there are one hundred or two hundred hives of them, although the said hives are not so huge as those of the east country, but far less, and not able to contain above one bushel of corn or five pecks at the most. Pliny (a man that of set purpose delighteth to write of wonders), speaking of honey, noteth that in the north regions the hives in his time were of such quantity that some one comb contained eight foot in length, and yet (as it should seem) he speaketh not of the greatest. For in Podolia, which is now subject to the King of Poland, their hives are so great, and combs so abundant, that huge boars, overturning and falling into them, are drowned in the honey before they can recover and find the means to come out. Our honey also is taken and reputed to be the best, because it is harder, better wrought, and cleanlier vesselled up, than that which cometh from beyond the sea, where they stamp and strain their combs, bees, and young blowings altogether into the stuff, as I have been informed. In use also of medicine our physicians and apothecaries eschew the foreign, especially that of Spain and Pontus, by reason of a venomous quality naturally planted in the same, as some write, and choose the home-made: not only by reason of our soil (which hath no less plenty of wild thyme growing therein than in Sicilia and about Athens, and maketh the best stuff) as also for that it breedeth (being gotten in harvest time) less choler, and which is oftentimes (as I have seen by experience) so white as sugar, and corned as if it were salt. Our hives are made commonly of rye straw and wattled about with bramble quarters; but some make the same of wicker, and cast them over with clay. We cherish none in trees, but set our hives somewhere on the warmest side of the house, providing that they may stand dry and without danger both of the mouse and the moth. This furthermore is to be noted, that whereas in vessels of oil that which is nearest the top is counted the finest and of wine that in the middest, so of honey the best which is heaviest and moistest is always next the bottom, and evermore casteth and driveth his dregs upward toward the very top, contrary to the nature of other liquid substances, whose grounds and leeze do generally settle downwards. And thus much as by the way of our bees and English honey. Peter Borst Ithaca, NY plb6@cornell.edu http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 09:00:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Another stinging incident and death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for info. They seem to be in the news. http://dailypress.com/news/stories/e0054559.htm Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:27:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Tropical beekeeping advice esp. swarm prevention MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Swarms can be forced to self-retrieve simply by keeping a queen excluder between the bottom hive body and the bottom board. If one does this, he must inspect for and remove queen cells every 10 days while the QE is in place. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:27:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Resistant varroa mites in the UK Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Frankly I am at a loss to understand what must really be done when mites resistant to Bayvarol/Apistan are discovered. If mites are resistant to Bayvarol are they resistant to Apistan? If the answer to the above question is YES then must we not use a control which is neither of the above? And if that be the case, then surely the control we must now use must be more effective than the now failed control? Does this not then point to Coumaphos? And if it does not, then why did we not use the other control (not Coumaphos) before the resistance to Bayvarol/Apistan emerged? I shall be glad of input. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 21:10:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re- reasons why beekeepers trucks are never stolen. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit we had a Chrysler minivan which saw a great deal of use, including bee yard duties. At one point it suffered irreparable damage to the passenger door, whereupon a used door from a junk yard was pressed into service. My brother-in-law was quite chagrined to see that we never painted the door to match the rest of the van, in fact the crayon markings from the junk yard dealer were left intact. "Kids", I used to say, "you have to realize that by driving this van in this condition we are performing an invaluable public service. Every other driver out there will see our van and the decripit condition it's in, and instantly they will feel very good about their own vehicles, which no doubt appear much better in their own eyes after seeing ours." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vasile Abramiuc Subject: A lifetime (30 year) experienced beekeeper, looking for a job A lifetime (30 year) experienced beekeeper, looking for a job I derive from a familly of beekeepers with tradition in beekeeping. As a child I started from helping my father and so I got a passion for beekeeping. After the highschool I continued the studies and I've got specialization in beekeeping at college with I graduated in 1982. In 1983 I got employed at a big firm and I've received 150 bees famillies (beehives). The purpose of the firm was : pollination , pollen, honey, propolis, venom, swarms. An important aspect is that excepting the transporting work I didn't have any help in my work, no team, just myself. I know how to do all the operation from A to Z and I always did it just by myself. This was not my choice, this was the political of the firm and I always did my best. I also can and enjoy working in a team. I live in Romania and I have a wonderful familly, 5 kids and 3 nephews. The reason I do want to get a job is that I want to provide a better life for my familly. Although I have such an experience and knowledge my pretensions are modest and I am prepared even to work the first month for free, just to enable you to check my skills. I'm looking for a job (permanent or seasonal) prefferably in the Canada, U.S., Australia, West Europe, but I will consider other offers as well. I didn't mention that I also have a truck clean driving license. I don't smoke and I don't drink alchool. If interested in a serious, dedicated employee, please email me at aciprian2001@yahoo.com Sincerily, Vasile Abramiuc ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:13:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Raising Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would >appreciate any suggestions or comments on the best way to raise my own >queens and what kit or technique to use. I would suggest that you purchase a good queen rearing book such as Marla Spivak's " Successful Queen Rearing". After reading it if you want to use a kit, I think they are all similar. The book is important because it will explain more than what is deatiled in the kit such as selection, feeding, cell starting and finishing, mating, etc. Her book also has plans to build some of the specialized equipment needed for queen rearing. good luck marc studebaker ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:00:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Canon, Hartman" Subject: Field Trip for kindergarteners MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A kindergartener class in Highland Park, IL is spending a couple of weeks on bees. My granddaughter is in that class, and I have been supplying some materials, photos, a drawn frame, etc. Such interest has been generated that apparently the teacher suggested that a field trip might bee possible. Being in FLORIDA, my place is out of the question, but is there somebody up in that area that might be near enough that they might make a short visit, receive a meaningful demo/talk?? Please answer me off list directly to hartman.Canon@lmco.com OR hbcanon@homemail.com Thank you, H.B.Canon Geneva, FL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:35:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Resistant varroa mites in the UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Tom, Varroa mites resistant to Apistan are also resistant to Bayvarol. In fact, this cross resistance it one of the strongest indicators in the field apart from actual bioassy that you are in fact dealing with resistance not just a bad batch of control strips. You will need to use something else with a different mechanism of action to control such varroa. Options include formic acid and other organic acids such as oxalic acid and thymol as well as the coumaphos which you mentioned. As for where the resistance came from - much speculation of course but likely the varro population that was introduced to UK already had a fair amount of resistance to pyrethoids. The most likely source of mites of course is the mainland where such resistance seems to be pretty widespread now. With the use of coumaphos is the resulting contamination of all wax and the accumulation of coumaphos in the wax. Consider carefully which path to go down as the contamination issue is there and do remember that coumaphos resistance will arrise if you start to use it. Yes we are using it here in the USA and it is still working well but it is much more toxic to the bees than apistan and does build in the wax so caution is advised. We really need a control that does not leave accumulating residue in the wax combs. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:49:45 -0400 Reply-To: James Fischer Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Techniquies For Overwintering a 12-Frame Observation Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We need some comments and suggestions from folks who have over-wintered observation hives before. This is the first fall for an observation hive that consists of 4 "supers", each 3 frames wide, holding medium frames. The building in which the hive is located (a visitor center at a local state park) is closed from Labor Day to Memorial Day, and is unheated during winter, but must be assumed to stay much warmer than the ambient temperature. Rather than worry about the hive, and make special trips to look after it, the plan was to repackage the hive into two medium hive bodies, and remove it from the park. Obviously, one would place the frames from the observation hive in the center of each super, 6 per super, and try to set things up in a sensible manner, grouping any brood together, etc. The plan is to feed constantly until the "extra" frames of drawn comb are filled to give them some extra winter stores, and then treat the hive as any other until spring, when the hive can be re-packaged into the observation hive for another summer. Any comments? Any suggestions/critiques? jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:14:57 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: HOME Subject: Tracheal mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tracheal mites have been a prominent pest for Apis m.sp. for a "reasonable period of time" and therefore has been attacked by many different types of treatment. Noting how quickly V.j. has managed to invest in resistance traits, have tracheal mites ever as far as we know managed to produce a resistant type to a particular treatment? Also, putting it simply: - why do the bees in the N. American continent suffer so badly from these mites - is it due to a particular strain of susceptible bee gene base that is so widespread? I stand to be corrected and informed - but as far as I am aware, bees in Europe are attacked, and more so at certain periods - but there is not the ever present threat that if the bees are not treated then survival is at risk. It is not a major pre-occupation for European beekeepers. So, how come the America's continue to have this enormous problem? And why has it not been dealt with to arrive at bees that are "resistant". I realise that there has been importations to try and deal with the problem - but as mentioned, why the continued great disparity? Waiting to be treated with the tone of "Where's he been for the last 20 years" type of attitude! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:56:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Natural Varroa Control Expanding! In-Reply-To: <200109101137.f8ABb8J22938@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mr Barry Birkey has posted a site for all 49ers now to post pictures of their bees chewing out varroa mites in the purple-eye stage and beekeepers are starting to post who have a camera. Unfortunately many don't have cameras who are replicating the phenomona. But still what pictures we are getting posted now are thrilling to see, as the bees control their own varroa problem with no treatments of any kind, just small 4.9mm foundation and culling drones allowed to no more than 10% on any one frame as you work your hvies back up. Then you don't worry about drones either. You let them be! Here's the site in case any of you want to see also, just in case any of you want to try to not use treatments, especially in lieu of Dr Tews Sep 01 article in Bee Culture on IPM and no more chemicals. http://www.beesource.com/mitechew/index.htm Regards: Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona, USA Ph/Fax: 1-520-748-0542 Email: deelusbybeekeeper@excelonline.com http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:35:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Techniquies For Overwintering a 12-Frame Observation Hive Comments: To: James Fischer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, > We need some comments and suggestions from folks who > have over-wintered observation hives before. > Any comments? Any suggestions/critiques? My suggestion is probably the most unusual you will get but here goes. What you are looking at is simply a queen and frames for observation. Not a 20 frame hive with young bees, pollen and honey for winter. I would cage the queen and use her to requeen with or if your other hives are medium frames use her and the brood to requeen a hive needing requeened. In my opinion any hive which did not produce enough honey (as compared to others in the yard) needs a new queen. Start your observation hive next year with a fresh young queen. Swarming (in my opinion) is more apt to happen with a old queen in a observation hive such as yours. If all your other hives are in deep hive bodies put the 12 frames of the ob hive (less queen & bees) over a strong hive with a queen excluder. Remove when empty. The brood should hatch and the hive should pull the honey down into the brood nest. Shake the old OB bees out on the ground in the area of several hives and they will drift in and join the other hives. Now take a medium super of honey and put over a strong hive not using a queen excluder. . Next spring you can use the brood to make up a new OB hive. I would recommend introducing a young queen Next spring the queen & bees should be in the super you placed on the hive. Remove the queen and place her below and take the super and what ever you need to start the OB hive. Add a couple frames of MT drawn comb for the new queen to start laying in and presto you have got your 12 frame OB hive. I wrote the above solution as if all your other hives were in deeps. If you have got hives with brood in medium depth I would simply combine BUT I would use a young queen each year. Old queens (and sometimes young) WILL swarm from a OB hive! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Almost the middle of September . I never winter a hive like Jim describes but maybe others do and will give Jim a better answer. Last night the temperature dropped into the 40's . Winter is around the corner. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:31:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: Raising Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Whether raising 10 or 10 000 queens, the following recipe should work. Make your own cups from wax, 15 in a row, at each dipping. Fix the cups onto 15mm wooden dowel sticks about 20mm long that have been attached to a bar of wood (normally a bottom bar). To attach the cups, use a large pear shaped syringe bulb with a long nozzle (available from pharmacies), filled with hot wax. During ops, keep the wax reservoir for cups and wax syringe in a 70 celsius oven. Attach the bottom bar with cups (after grafting) to a normal frame with terry clips; one to four bars per frame. Use a wooden queen cage with three holes covered with stainless gauze. The side hole should be drilled around 16mm so it can fit over the ripe queen cells onto the dowel sticks, enabling the virgins to emerge in the cage. This cage can ALSO be used for shipping AND introduction. Grafting tools? There are many and many expensive ones. Use the Chinese tool; it's cheap, the fastest and it transfers food with the larvae. Being metal-free, it’s also one of the safest tools. Use a fibre optic light when grafting. Transfer larvae at about 12 hours old, i.e., when still transparent. Regulate conditions in the grafting room with a vaporiser and heater/air conditioner. Aim for high twenties (celsius) and about 50% humidity. Dryness is a bigger enemy than incorrect temperature. Aim to absolutely minimise the time between taking frames from breeder queens and dropping grafts into the cell builders. Cell starters and finishers - the best system (per personal opinion, of course) is the Cloake method: www.beekeeping.co.nz/info/cloake.htm Absolutely ensure you keep one or two frames of open brood in the middle of the top chamber. This draws nurses upwards (you need 200 nurses for each queen cell). Transfer the larvae frames to another colony when you drop the queen cells in. This means lots of nurse bees for the royal larvae, with food to go. There should be sealed brood in the top chamber at all times. Ensure there is a frame or more of pollen alongside the queen cells. Bees move honey around a hive; they do not move pollen, and nurse bees will not "travel" for pollen. Absolutely check for and destroy natural queen cells in both chambers on pre-determined dates, according to the race of bee. Every ten days should be good for Eurobees. The Cloake system is very "natural" and the double brood chamber creates a "large" micro environment more stable than most cell builders offer. If maintained with military type precision, a single Cloake starter (which can also be used to finish cells) can build 180 queen cells in a single graft, but insert 50 for truly superior technical quality queens. The Cloake system should be adapted to your race of bee. For example, with the African bee, I move each Cloake unit about 10m every fortnight. The field bees are drained into a hive on the original site supplied with some brood and honey, and a caged queen to be introduced. The original unit is fortified by brood from donor hives. Field bees are essential in cell builders, but their numbers can sometimes create a nuisance factor - they have no role in the brood area. Also, with African bees, I never (totally) close the back entrance of the bottom chamber. African bees raise drones all year, and the bees need an exit for cleaning the bottom chamber. You would have seen that the only "extras" you need for the Cloake system are a rim and a sheet. I use an aluminium rim and stainless steel sheet. These have to be precision made and are expensive, but do the job. So far, queen breeding has been easy!!? Nothing has been said about selection and genetics. Notwithstanding that, environmental conditions have to be ideal. The ideal conditions for queen breeding comprise a light nectar flow and a heavy pollen flow. Heavy nectar flows induce an “all hands to the deck” attitude. Long sunny days and relatively small variations in daily temperature help. When aiming for top technical queen quality, nothing but fresh natural food will suffice. If you don't have such conditions, migrate to another site with ideal conditions. Or sit it out, but don't raise runts and think you have achieved something worthwhile. For me, the only book that has ever been written about queen breeding is Laidlaw and Page's "Queen rearing and bee breeding." It seems surprisingly difficult to come by; try amazon.com. When you’ve bred the queens, you need to know how to utilise them in the best possible way. But that’s another story. Good luck! Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:33:22 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: HOME Subject: Bayer S.A taking French Beekeepers to court MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for Info: Bayer, producers of the pesticide "Gaucho" are in the process of taking several French beekeepers to court. Bayer insists that the molecule Imidacloprid has not been the reason for the decimation of bee colonies in France over several years. Most French beekeeping unions hold the opposite point of view. Each side presenting evidence supporting its' case. Maybe this will result in all the relevant information being properly considered and in a truly independent manner. What ever the result - this episode highlights the need for the public authorities to tackle most urgently the manner and method in which toxic materials are presented and placed on to the market. I note according to the BBC Radio 4 item broadcast today (10/09/2001) that several notable medical publishing journals will refuse to publish reports produced by pharmaceutical companies unless they are supported by truly independent organisations. This situation coming about due to the realisation that unfavorable observations relating to new drugs etc. are being suppressed. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:53:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all: I already answered this question a week ago, but something occurred this weekend that really adds a "cherry to the cake". My sons were selling my honey at "my high prices as usual" in a small farming community fair in Maryland, and they hold an auction at the end of the day. I had attended myself for a few hours, showing my observation hives, talking about the mites, and telling all the importance of honey bee pollination to our human food supply; and I came home. My sons donated two 5 Pound jars of honey, one clover and one goldenrod, to the Fair auction, and stayed there to watch the auction. The auctioneer held up the 5 pound jar of clover honey, and told the crowd that this was not Chinese honey, but MARYLAND honey, collected by Master Beekeeper George Imirie's bees, and is just another part of George's AWARD WINNING honey. It sold for an even $100. The 5 pound jar of Goldenrod Honey was not put up for auction until a half hour later, and then the auctioneer said he already had an offer of $100, so the opening bid would have to be higher, and he mentioned that Goldenrod honey had a fine taste, but it tended to crystallize quickly. That jar fetched $150; and both jars were bought by two people that I do not know. My sons talked to them and asked why they paid that much, and both replied to "help the fair finances, and to buy something of truly REPUTABLE QUALITY ". When my sons told me, I felt pretty humble, but pleased. YOU can do the same thing! IGNORE the grocery store prices, and ignore other bee- keeper prices, and sell QUALITY; but above all - SELL YOURSELF and SELL YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF apis mellifera, and after doing that, customers will come TO YOU, and you don't have to go too far to customers. I hope I have made you think, and therefore helped. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:19:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Natural Varroa Control Expanding! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee and All, Mr Barry Birkey has posted a site for all 49ers now to post > pictures of their bees chewing out varroa mites in the > purple-eye stage and beekeepers are starting to post who > have a camera. Unfortunately many don't have cameras who > are replicating the phenomona. I guess I will not be seeing the above phenomona with the SMR line because varroa does not reproduce in SMR bees cells. No need to chew out varroa in the purple-eye stage. I am glad to hear of your and other 49ers success! Please keep the list posted! Sincerely, Bob Ps. Is not using SMR queens and no chemicals natural varroa control Barry? ______________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:59:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Tracheal mites Comments: To: pdillon@CLUB-INTERNET.FR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, I will try and give you a answer but you must realize there are many different opinions on the subject . Below is only my opinion. > So, how come the America's continue to have this enormous problem? I believe the problem lies with those of us which use the Italian bee which IS the most widely used bee in the U.S.. In my opinion the Italian bee in the U.S. has a hard time dealing with the tracheal mite. Maybe you are exactly right and it is a widespread gene in the Italian U.S. bee which is the problem. Most beekeepers using Italians are very aware of the Italian bees weakness with tracheal mites. I have got Carniolans which have no trouble dealing with TM. > And why has it not been dealt with to arrive at bees that are "resistant". I know I am going to get flak over what I am about to say but say I must. My Italians out produce any other strain of bee I have ever used by at least a full super on average every year. Every once in a while you get a queen of another race which produces a huge amount of honey but If you are in the honey production business Italians are my recommendation. Year after year they out produce all others. One needs to treat for tracheal mites with Italians. In the south a crisco/sugar patty might be all that is needed to control TM. > I realise that there has been importations to try and deal with the problem - but as mentioned, why the continued great disparity? When TM first hit I went to Buckfast bees for the resistance to TM. Small honey crops made me go back to Italians. The truth is I was using Buckfast Bees from the Weavers.. One day I went to get queens and they were out of Buckfast so I tried some of the Weaver *All-American* Italian line. They outproduced the Buckfast by a couple supers on average so I said the heck with resistance and went all Italians and started treating for tracheal mites. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps.. Italian bees have got other traits which can cause beekeepers problems if they do not understand their bees but lets only do one fault at a time.. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 23:22:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Raising Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Commercial beekeeping is finding the sites that will produce bees and honey. Mass expansion of a few colonies may led to more loss of hives then the increase. The quality of queens from commercial raising queens is the best. They produce more honey and bees with queens from major queen breeders. Larger hives will make you honey money in the spring. If you are intent on trying to raise your own queens when so much equipment is needed for expansion. If you do expand at this time of year there is one saving item to remember. In the spring take brood frames from nucs of the new queens and add them to full size hive. This will jump start the full size hives and you will get production of honey. The nuc will go thur the bloom and increase to a full hive but will not produce much honey. Queen raising cage and cell cup can give you lots of cells to add to nucs. These can be purchased from any major beekeeping supply house. Drones are part of the queen raising and before they are ran out of the hive in the fall you have to have the queen cells hatched. You will need to raise drones and from the suppliers you can order drone frames. These frames will have to be drawn out with wax from healthy well fed large hives. Queen cells can be picked up at queen breeders. They can save you some money but you may have to queen them again if it doesn't start laying. If you are in an area where the African bees are this is not a good idea. Scratching a single 4 inch line on the 3 day old eggs on the lower side of brood frames with a hive tool will cause the bees to make queen cells. They have to be removed or the queen in the hive will destroy them. You can put them and the brood frame above the queen extruder. Splitting the brood frames to a nuc will develop into a hive with feeding all winter. This feeding will cost you any production money that they would make next spring. Wintering hives with 5 frames of brood and a super of honey is the smallest that should be tried. Anything less is a lost of production for next year buildup of hives. Michael Housel Orlando ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 02:13:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Vos Subject: Pro and con on 4.9. I am only a new beekeeper since last year for hobby only but willing to learn and experiment. Last April I was lucky and managed to catch a very large swarm in my neighbours garden. Last year I have collected a lot of pro and con information on 4.9 foundation from the BEE-L messages and from personal contact with the Dee Lusby. Now it only takes a crazy Dutchman living in France to order some packages of 4.9 from Dadant in the U.S. and have it shipped to France. The swarm was directly put on 4.9 foundation and a screened bottom during a honey flow. The swarm hive was set away from the other 5.5 hives with screened bottoms and all checked weekly for Varroa, but no mites were found in all of these 5 months. To me this is clear enough prove that the Varroa mites don't like drafts and small larvae, while the other 5.5 hives have plenty of them. It's just too bad that now at the end of the season I cannot shake the other hives in new hives with also 4.9 and find out what will happen. Next year this will be the first point of action with feeding if need be, but we have to beat the mite somehow to prevent great loses and hardship. And these little bees look so beautiful and active, while wash boarding often seems to be their favorite activity at the end of their working day. BEEHAPPY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:32:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Pro and con on 4.9. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John and All, > I am only a new beekeeper since last year for hobby only but willing to > learn and experiment. Last April I was lucky and managed to catch a very > large swarm in my neighbours garden. The swarm was directly put on 4.9 foundation and a screened bottom during a honey flow. The swarm hive was set away from the other 5.5 hives with > screened bottoms and all checked weekly for Varroa, but no mites were found in all of these 5 months. To me this is clear enough prove that the Varroa mites don't like drafts and small larvae, >while the other 5.5 hives have plenty of them. Congratulations on your new hobby John! I want to also congratulate Dee Lusby & Barry Birkey for the help they have given new beekeepers! New beekeepers need a helping hand in today's world of beekeeping. Today's world of beekeeping is in constant change. In the *old days* if you kept bees like Grand Pa did you would be successful. Not today in beekeeping! Now to why John is not seeing varroa in his new swarm. The answer *could* be as simple as the swarm came from a treated hive. If reinfestation is not the source of the varroa then it usually takes two years for varroa to kill a hive if left untreated. Some research says 3 years! 5 months is simply not enough time for a *swarm* to reach high infestation levels unless your bees are robbing a dying varroa infested hive. Swarms which abscond because of varroa can carry a high infestation and could possibly die in a short time. I do not wish do discourage you but teach you. I am sure Dee would agree with what I have posted as the information is common knowledge among us which have been fighting varroa for a very long time. Do not use chemicals on your swarm John and keep testing for varroa. The real test will come if the hive is still alive a year from the next April. I will have to wait two years from this spring to see if the SMR bees do as advertised. I can only sit by and be told why our efforts are not going to work( 49ers sound familiar?). It does not matter that one of the foremost bee researchers in the world Dr. Harbo is behind the project and convinced the U.S.D.A. SMR was the best choice for American Beekeepers(over 4.9mm cell size). SMR queens will be sold next spring John. Why not try a SMR queen next to your 49er for comparison? Hi Dee! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Varroa can be like ticks on a outside dog. One week you do not see any. The next week the dog is covered. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:33:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kevin Subject: Beekeepers Cookbook Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, I'm often a 'lurker' on these lists, so I thought I would venture = out of the shadows to try and start a little something... Last night I was doing some 'cooking' in my kitchen, and had a = thought, along with a mess. I was trying to make up a batch of = sugar-water for my hives, using the 1 gallon pails that I acquired this = year, and trying to figure out my volumes, and pints, and pecks, and = gallons, and teaspoons.... and blah. Anyway... has anyone ever seen a "Beekeepers Cookbook"? Not 101 = uses for honey in place of sugar, but a cookbook that lists recipes for = grease patties, of pollen patties, or FGMO strings, or the likes... I'm = interested in that... very much so. So here is my thought... if anyone has a book like this, please let = me know how to get it... If not, then I'll make one myself. I'll just = post a note to the different Lists that I read... Collect them and sort = through them... and put them in some kind of order. And mail them to = people, or ask someone to post it on their website... So what say the list? Got some secret beekeeping recipes to share? = Thinking that you can either reply on the list, or to me directly using = the same 'subject'... and I'll try and put them all together... As the = saying goes... ask 10 beekeepers a question, get 11 answers... I'll see = what happens if I as a few hundred. Kevin M. Keyfauver McHenry, IL USA electric_knife@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:22:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Raising Queens Mark, for now, start practising right away, no matter what method you decide on. I personally use a piece of wire smashed on one end with a hammer, and bent into a scoop shape. I transfer the smallest larvae into plasic cups shoved up into the groove underneath a shallow super frame. Keep humid with a damp towel, transfer into a strong queenless hive, wait 9 days, put the finnished cells into nucs, wait untill new queen is laying, and there you go. I once tried priming the cells with diluted honey to help float the larva off the wire, but I guess I did something wrong, and not one of about 50 larvae I grafted took. I know other do very well priming with honey, I use this just as an example of how something you find in the archives of a site like this might not work for you. (I hope you've checked the archives on this site). tvaughan@charter.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 19:09:16 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dr pedro p rodriguez Subject: Re: GM and AFB resistance? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello fellow listees. I would like to add an example to Mr. Damus remarks. Gaucho. I know of beekeepers who have taken their hives to sunflower fields this year and had to remove them with hardly any bees left. Room for thought, I would say. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:38:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Natural Varroa Control Expanding! In-Reply-To: <200109111129.f8BBT5J15566@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Bob - > I guess I will not be seeing the above phenomona with the SMR line because > varroa does not reproduce in SMR bees cells. This has yet to be shown to be true by Mr. and Mrs. beekeeper. I doubt very much that you will see this because it has only been noticed with bees on a much smaller cell size than what you and most everyone else in the States are use to working with. I'm very encouraged to see this 'hygienic' behavior taking place now amongst other beekeepers and not just the Lusby's. I also believe it's another point that goes a long way in debunking the idea that the Lusby's success is strapped to the back of AHB. Otherwise, the African gene is far more common in our bee stock than some want to admit to. I hope we get a good feedback from the SMR people on the signs and progress they encounter. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:55:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Chewing out varroa mites in the purple eye stae In-Reply-To: <200109102129.f8ALTkJ18488@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hey! I've seen some of my New World Carniolans doing this! On regular Plastic and wax foundation! I thought the bees were showing Hygenic characteristics, and were cleaning out Foulbrood or the like, so I pulled the supers and started treating with terramycin to give them a hand. How does one tell if the brood are being cleaned out because of Mites, or because of some other brood disease? One very weak hive definately had European Foulbrood- classic symptoms, but now I begin to have doubts about the others- maybe it was cleaning out mites. Ellen in Michigan Dee Lusby wrote: Mr Barry Birkey has posted a site for all 49ers now to post pictures of their bees chewing out varroa mites in the purple-eye stage .... http://www.beesource.com/mitechew/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:34:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: GM and AFB resistance? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Your message had 'Gaucho' in it - are you from Argentina? Apparently, alrthough you may know this already - the two places where AFB resistance was first noticed was Argentina and the U.S. - also two places that plant the most GM crops, and planted crops developed with antibiotic resistance markers. AFB appeared simultaneously in both places, ruling out transmission from one country to the other by other means. Two evolutionary advances like antibiotic resistance happening simultaneously and independently in the same organism are very unexpected, which has many thinking the GM and AFB link is real. It may be strong coincidence, however. Both countries produce a lot of honey and have very active beekeepers. In both places there are probably disciplined and less disciplined beekeepers, and if one does not treat for AFB properly (which is much worse than not treating at all - in regard to antibiotic resistance development), one may be rapidly selecting for AFB that is nat! urally resistant to antibiotics. Although I am against GM purely because we really don't need it and I don't subscribe to the concept of climbing mountains just because they are there, I would wait for more definitive evidence that transmission of antibiotic resistance has occurred from GM crops to bees. Just using antibiotics will one day result in the pathogens evolving resistance to it. We see this phenomenon emerging rapidly in humans, and in animals we use for food, so it is natural that it will happen to our bees' pathogens too. Although I'd love to shove a brake in front of the GM train, I don't think coincidence can just yet be ruled out in this case - unless anyone has heard more? Martin If you are an Argentine, Saludos! My father was born and raised in Buenos Aires and although we (his children) never learnt much Spanish, we have visited several times and will again. >>> dr pedro p rodriguez 09/08/01 01:09PM >>> Hello fellow listees. I would like to add an example to Mr. Damus remarks. Gaucho. I know of beekeepers who have taken their hives to sunflower fields this year and had to remove them with hardly any bees left. Room for thought, I would say. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:33:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Chewing out varroa mites in the purple eye stae In-Reply-To: <200109111504.f8BF47J22226@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Ellen, Great you have New World Carnolians chewing out varroa in the purple eye stage. Come on over to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biologicalbeekeeping and talk with the rest of us on straight biological controls. You will find that many have caucasian strains doing the same, also italian hybrids, etc. It's a trait in all bees irrespective of pedigree. As for what you wrote. If you look at your bees in the purple eye stage you will notice that they are white pupae being chewed upon or uncapped. This denotes healthy bees with no disease. But many times on large combs you will also notice secondary diseases that get a run on things and then the secondary spread and the bees cannot take care of both. The secondary look like darked bees remains and decomposing in the most basic of description to tell someone what to look for and the darkened larva/paupae lay on the bottom sides of the cells. These frames need to be pulled and taken out of a colony and replaced from our biological standpoint. Not medicated and kept in your beehive. Many bees on bigger combs exhbit the trait of chewing out varroa and wanting to correct the problem, but cannot due to the secondaries and the extra work required in chewing out pupae with reproducing offspring inside. You now go to 4.9mm foundation and the problem of chewing out becomes easier and secondaries come under control which gives the bees a free hand to get the mites out. Now the problem is easier because with the 4.9mm foundation the mites become non-reproducing and thus no additional offspring to have to clear out. Also with small cell the bees are on a better diet and healthier and disease doesn't take them over so easily. also on 4.9mm the bees have acess to more propolis and the extra shellac and resin helps to keep the cells more steral keeping infection low (IMPOV)to non-existant. But any one even seeing a few purple eye worker cells chewed open has bees that will handle varroa regardless of bee race/strain given the chance. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper, Tucson, Arizona deelusbybeekeeper@excelonline.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biologicalbeekeeping http://www.beesouce.com/pov/lusby/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:16:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Chewing out varroa mites in the purple eye stae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee, Wow what a bunch of claims! Can you point to research (other than your words and Barry's web site)with controls backing up your claims so I can research for myself? In particular the claim of zero varroa reproduction in the 4.9mm cell size as all documented research says varroa can and does reproduce in the 4.9mm cell size. My friends in South Africa with Scuts using a even smaller cell size than 4.9mm (Barry Seargent on this list) report varroa easily reproduces in the 4.9mm (and smaller) cell size on A. mellifera. Maybe Barry S. will comment. I have always been puzzled by your claims after my friends in South Africa report different observations. I was inclined to give the 4.9mm cell size the benefit of doubt although I stated to you by direct email a long time ago I *felt* the cell size would have to be as small as A. cerana for cell size to be a factor. You countered with Cerana and mellifera are the same size in certain areas of the world. When I checked in South Africa and found varroa was reproducing in cell size as small as 4.5 -4.6mm with mellifera I felt small cell size alone was doomed to failure. Only my opinion. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Missouri the *Show Me State* Ps. At least with SMR you can go the the Baton Rouge Bee Lab USDA web site (I posted awhile back) and see the results of tests with controls. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:13:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Raising Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Housel writes: <> I've never heard of this idea; can we have more details? Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham, UK. RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:13:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Natural Varroa Control Expanding! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob, My picture on Barry's website is from a hive headed by a open mated Harbo SMR f1 queen from Texas. Mite drop from the open mated Harbo queens has been lower or about the same as my Russian hives. I have lost my SMR breeder from Ca. The bees didn't like the degree of inbreeding and continually tried to supercede her. I grafted one round of f1's but haven't had them long enough to make any good measurements. I expect to see the same range of mite drop I have seen from the open mated Harbos from Texas. I have removed about 100 or so uncapped purple eyed pupa from several frames and found mature female adult varroa mites in all instances but two. I looked for immatures in about 25 cells and found only 1. Uncapping about an equal number of sealed brood on the same frames failed to yield a single mite, even in the drone brood. In my area of the country, chemical treatment were only 30% effective at best. Camouphos resistance has been reported in other parts of the world and now reports of resistance to Oxalic acid have surfaced. Why not put a few of those SMR's on some 4.9. Let us know what you see. Maybe the magic bullet is SMR's on 4.9 :>) Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:20:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Schlafer-Parton Subject: Re: Chewing out varroa mites in the purple eye stae In-Reply-To: <200109111505.f8BF5UJ22247@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >Hello All, Just a question concerning chewing out varroa in the purple-eye stage. I too have observed this phenomenon in New World Carniolans, Buckfasts and Italians. The pictures I have seen posted and my own observations only involve worker brood. If indeed this is the bees attempt to control varroa, and if varroa is more attracted to the drone brood, then why are we not observing the bees chewing out the drone brood more that the worker brood? Has anyone observed the same phenomenon concerning drone brood to the same extent as worker brood? Just Wondering, Joel Parton Knoxville, TN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 05:35:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Raising Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Raising queens by scratching the lower brood area. The queen cell cage on a pen can be used to deform the cells or using the hive tool scratch or depress a row of cells. This needs to be 3 day old larvae. You should mark the top of the frame and remove it above the queen extruder as soon as it is sealed. I use two, five frame nucs which I build that are the same size as one brood box set on top of the queen extruder to raise the cells. I use this system to set the new hives over the winter for early production. Exchanging the extra brood from the nucs to the main hive brood box in the spring with the outside insulation honey frames from the brood box to a box above the extruder. The two or three queen system spring start up gives you early build up for honey production. The nucs should not be left on top after the nectar flow starts as this will develop swarming because of the cramping space. I pull my main hives to pollination sites and leave the left nuc to pick up any flying bees at the site. Usually moving nucs to full hive boxes and then to the next pollination area. The last nuc is left as I have removed as much brood to the full brood hives as possible and it will build up slower for replacement of queen mess ups. Queen mess up is when I pull brood and queen to a queen right hive. Two queens seem to work fine for a pollination contract of a few weeks but will cause cramping in a single brood box and swarming. I still recommend purchasing quality queens from a queen breeder in the fall and spring. Michael Housel Orlando ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:02:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Natural Varroa Control Expanding! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dennis Murrell gave a description of his SMR results so far. > SMR breeder: The bees didn't like the degree of inbreeding and continually tried to supercede her. > one round of f1's but haven't had them long enough to make any good measurements. First, the results with the breeder from Ca. is consistent with reports from the folks doing the work. They have stated up front, and it is very clear on the breeder's web page that these bees have been inbred (perhaps excessively) to isolate SMR traits. The queens are recommended ONLY as breeders, not production colonies, and it's stated up front that customers should be prepared for the experience that Dennis described. The breeder queens are to be used to raise as many queens as on is able for as long as the bees will allow the breeders to exist. And the progeny may or may not retain SMR traits, although claims are that it is highly likely that some degree of SMR will carry over to the next generation(s). > I have removed about 100 or so uncapped purple eyed pupa from several > frames and found mature female adult varroa mites in all instances but > two. These details are sketchy. Were those "100 or so" from multiple queens or a single colony. How soon after the colony(s) was/were given the open mated SMR daughter queen(s) were the small sample size tests run? It's not hard to recognize holes in the evaluation. All in all I'd say Dennis' SMR experiment is right on track and consistent with what Baton Rouge has publicized to expect. However, it also seems to me that it's too soon and not complete enough to make valid conclusions. Aaron Morris - thinking Bob's 2-yr test period is about spot on! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:26:34 -0700 Reply-To: morharn@groucho.ctel.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Organization: Morong's Harness Subject: Re: Raising Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concerning Mark's queen question, If you need many queens the equipment and hoopla in the literature is great. I've read a lot about it and tried some techniques. However, if you need one or two new queens, the job is simple. Get a frame with really young brood from your best colony, lightly brush the bees from it, mark it, and put it in the brood area of the target colony. Then kill the undesired queen. Check every couple days for ten days for supersedure cells by shaking the bees off the unmarked frames and removing cells, but treat the chosen brood most gently and leave supercedure cells on it. In a couple weeks a virgin queen will leave a smooth hole in her cell and tear a hole in the side of other cells. If you question whether a queen is present, insert some more young good brood. If the bees make supersedure cells there is no queen, leave the cells and treat them gently. When the bees don't make supersedure cells, they have a queen; you should find eggs in a week or two more. Be merciless in culling your stock so you have only drones you would want used. Put a frame of drone foundation in each of your favorite hives not related to those from which you are taking young brood for queens. It seems to take lots of drones to make queens who have long laying lives. I'm thankful to good queen breeders for some really fine stock, and some of their good queens deserve to have their bloodlines preserved by breeding some great home-grown queens. Some of the commercially available queens are exquisite, but others in the same batch can be duds. Use your good queens to requeen the colonies with duds. Be sure to buy some good stock every year to test, and perhaps use to diversify your gene pool. There seems to be little truth in rumors of nasty hybrids, good bees seem to beget good bees, and probably the converse is also true. After several generations of hybrids, I'm still waiting for those nasty bees, and have a very nice bunch of mongrels. It's fun to do this, and the good daughters and granddaughters of good old queens bring back fond memories. Some bee families are just lovable. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:45:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Chewing out varroa mites in the purple eye stae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joel and all, > Just a question concerning chewing out varroa in the purple-eye stage. I > too have observed this phenomenon in New World Carniolans, Buckfasts and > Italians. I have also on 5.2 cells. But not like what one sees on small cells. The pictures I have seen posted and my own observations only > involve worker brood. I believe Barry has pic's of this happening in drone cells too! I have seen uncapping of both drone and worker cells on my small cell colonies. Often the bees will chew drone pupae down to remove the mite. Also only 10% drone brood is allowed on any frame to limit the mites. In the worker brood no or very little reproduction is occuring. The female mite still enters the cell however she is removed at the purple eye stage. > Has anyone observed the same phenomenon concerning drone brood to the same > extent as worker brood? Yes. It occurs in drone brood. One must remember that worker brood out numbers drone brood. Also most of us using small cells cull frames with excessive drone brood to make the bees work easier(usually not on year one however as the comb is much needed). Do not confuse this with drone trapping. It has been seen by members of bio bee list that as much as 1/3 to1/2 frames under go such uncapping at the purple eye stage. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:21:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Chewing out varroa mites in the purple eye stae Comments: cc: barry@birkey.com In-Reply-To: <200109121455.f8CEtjJ13849@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Joel wrote: I too have observed this phenomenon in New World Carniolans, Buckfasts and Italians. Reply: This is good you seeing this and is what we have been following for more than 6 plus years now. Joel also wrote: The pictures I have seen posted and my own observations only involve worker brood. Reply: Yes, this is true for the most part, but it is easy to trigger chewing out of drone brood also. Joel further wrote: If indeed this is the bees attempt to control varroa, and if varroa is more attracted to the drone brood, then why are we not observing the bees chewing out the drone brood more that the worker brood? Reply: After more then 6 years watching IMPOV there is a time and a place for this like everything else. We are currently in deep discussion on this at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biologicalbeekeeping as others are seeing the same thing in their bees. Further since anyone can trigger the phenomona with their OWN bees it is being explained how on the BioBee list. Unfortunately, the key trigger is natural range small cell size comb and culling of drones to 10% levels on anyone frame when working colonies back up, which in practice actually stimulates their active raising all year long Joel additionally wrote: Has anyone observed the same phenomenon concerning drone brood to the same extent as worker brood? Reply: Bee colonies do not work drone brood the same priority as workerbrood as mite cycles fluxuate up and down throughout the active year. Regards, Dee A. Lusby, Commercial Beekeeper(non-mirgatory) Tucson Arizona, USA deelusbybeekeeper@excelonline.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biologicalbeekeeping http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:32:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Chewing out varroa mites in the purple eye stae Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, I totally agree with Bob H that there are some very interesting and unsubstantiated claims being put forward for observing hygenic behavior in action! This is well documented by Dr Marla Spivak and other researchers. I have seen it in many colonies of different types. The bees are removing pupa that are either diseased or varroa infested. They remove diseased pupa before there are any visible symptoms present in the pupa so some of those pupa may be infected with chalkbrood or AFB for example instead of varroa. When the bees remove diseased pupa at this stage, the disease is not to the point of producing spores and so the bees are able to remove these diseases from the colonies. Good stock from a disease management point of view but Dr Spivak and others have clearly shown in published research that they are not resistant to varroa. They do slow the population increase of varroa for a while but the varroa wins the fight over time - they are not resistant to varroa. R! emember also that this trait needs to be present in bees that also have all the other important good traits for the stock to be considered good and useful stock. They have to produce good honey crops, winter well for those of us in the north, and be gentile as well as disease resistant and we also need traits like SMR that confir varroa resistance. Finding adult mites in the brood of SMR F1 queens is not by itself evidence that they are not varroa resistant. The critical observation is if they have successfully reproduced in those brood cells. I fully agree with Bob and Aaron that the two year test will tell the tale on these bees. I only have a few colonies but may have an indication by next spring ( actually during the winter ) if they survive winter since they have not been treated and they did have mites this last spring. Right now I fully expect one of the hives be killed by varroa this winter but it is not an SMR queen. Again time will tell and those willing to loose some colonies to varroa due to not treating. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:45:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Chewing out varroa mites in the purple eye stae To Blaine and Dennis, are you sure that F1 is the proper name for a daughter of a pure bred SMR queen? I think that the designation should rather go to the queens produced from the eggs layed by open mated daughters, which would be laying 25% plus SMR brood, depending on the daddy drones. This is why I wonder if we'll get good honey producers any time soon with open mated SMR daughters, as except for spotty brood, and the vigor of her hybrid offspring she herself will still have the other characteristics of her mom, right? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:21:07 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: HOME Subject: Tracheal Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, Dave and all, Thanks for your responses - interesting but not surprising! So, basic question is: Why is this situation of low resistant bees allowed to continue - esp. as it causes so much economic damage in colony and harvest loss + the great potential that in the years to come a resistance will appear making the problem even more chronic (and acute for a time) than it is at the present. Italian bees are known for their weakness to this pest - historical problem. Italian bees are renowned for there ability to harvest - as you say, in the right conditions better than most other types of bee. But, surely it would not be beyond the realms of capability for some institution (other than Buckfast inc.!) to find the trait and stabilize it into a good Italian line. If not in the states then in Canada, Europe.or else where. I realise that work has been done in Canada - Ontario regarding this problem and things have advanced. I believe that it has been on the lines of "natural selection" rather than crossing in a trait. Would be pleasing if somebody involved in the Ontario project gives their thoughts! Has it ever been calculated how much this pest costs the industry directly and indirectly? I feel that it is a situation that has been accepted as a "fact of life" - one that will continue to be a problem rather than grasping the nettle and trying to deal with it. These comments may be way out from reality - if so, then enlighten me please. Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:22:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Natural Varroa Control Expanding! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron asked: >Were those "100 or so" from multiple queens or a >single colony. How soon after the colony(s) was/were given the open mated >SMR daughter queen(s) were the small sample size tests run? It's not hard >to recognize holes in the evaluation. Hello Everyone, The "100 or so" I referred to were from several frames in one hive reflecting a single observation that mite reproduction was limited and that cells with adult mites were being actively targeted by the bees. I have been observing this behavior in multiple hives with different queen lineages. I have removed the purple eyed pupa and noted the adult mites with absence of mites in other uncapped cells, even the drones. But I had not searched for the immatures before. The open mated queens(Harbos) were obtained from Weavers in Texas and installed on 5/17/01. > Aaron Morris - thinking Bob's 2-yr test period is about spot on! I agree that Bob's test is about spot on especially for Bob, his bees, style and requirements. But what about each individuals conditions and needs? The observations of others such as the Lusby's, Hines, etc and their testing periods for their methods now exceeds the time that Bob rightly suggests. SMR may make the transition in these approaches easier and faster. Their methods may not be suitable for everyone, in every location or meet every ones needs because the real test is an individual one. This is a great time for beekeepers everywhere to try for themselves these promising approaches. I am grateful for the effort and the willingness of others to share their experiences and observations. Best Wishes and Hoping some don't miss planting the crop while watching the clouds for rain:>) Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:50:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Tracheal Mites & SMR update Comments: To: pdillon@CLUB-INTERNET.FR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, Peter wrote: > But, surely it would not be beyond the realms of capability for some institution (other than Buckfast inc.!) to find the > trait and stabilize it into a good Italian line. If not in the states then in Canada, Europe.or else where. Without a doubt the feat could be accomplished. The problem is still that Italians in my opinion have got a big weakness for the mite. Two of my friends running large numbers of Caucasians do not treat at all for TM. Many beekeepers with Carniolans do not treat. Both strains seem to tolerate TM. I always find TM in their samples but not at infestation levels. I spend less than fifty cents ( U.S.) per hive treating for TM in my hives. SMR Update The Italian line I use is the product of over 50 years of selective breeding. In my opinion they are the best bees I have ever worked with. I hope to introduce the SMR trait into the line but doubt the Italians will pick up the trait like the Carniolans will (my opinion ). The Suppressed varroa mite reproduction (SMR) breeder queens were bred strictly for the SMR trait. Next year we will be able to see how many *bad* qualities their daughters carry. Such as swarming, low honey production and temperament. I have no doubt they can be improved through breeding but will take several years. Because myself & partner start grafting in March and are still grafting we can make big gains through breeding but you need to give the SMR queens a full season before selecting a breeder queen from the open mated daughters. I would guess it might take five years to get a good production SMR bee bred. In my opinion they will NEVER produce as the current Italian line I am using does but I could be wrong. As Aaron has said the SMR project is only starting and the road is long. I have tried to give a idea of my plans AND Goals with SMR. The whole project could fail. I believe in the SMR concept. Dr. Harbo & Dr. Harris have done their part. I thank both! Now I will do my part. I will report progress as the 49ers are doing but will remain quiet for the next couple of years. . Some of the leave untreated and only test we will be running: Already using Red SMR line and our survivor Carniolan drones Yellow SMR line with Red SMR line drones( spring 2002) Red SMR line with yellow SMR line drones (spring 2002) Red SMR line with my Italian drones ( spring 2002) Already using Yellow SMR line with Marla Spivak hygienic drones Already using red SMR line with Marla Spivak hygienic drones We got our breeder queens too late for this years honey production so we do not know if they will gather a honey crop. We do know the SMR breeder queens and their daughters are prolific, gentle and hygienic but I have not checked any for the SMR trait yet. I am too busy right now trying to get the rest of the honey crop off and hives ready for winter. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:07:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Morton Organization: Central Science Laboratory Subject: Re: Resistant varroa mites in the UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White wrote: > Varroa mites resistant to Apistan are also resistant to Bayvarol. In > fact, this cross resistance it one of the strongest indicators in the > field apart from actual bioassy that > you are in fact dealing with resistance not just a bad batch of control > strips. You will need to use something else with a different mechanism > of action to control such > varroa. Options include formic acid and other organic acids such as > oxalic acid and thymol as well as the coumaphos which you mentioned. As > for where the > resistance came from - much speculation of course but likely the varroa > population that was introduced to UK already had a fair amount of > resistance to pyrethoids. The > most likely source of mites of course is the mainland where such > resistance seems to be pretty widespread now. > Medwin Bew, head of the CSL National Bee Unit has asked me to post the following comments in response: > 1. My laboratory is dealing with the resistance case in the UK. The most > likely cause is through local misuse of Apistan and not natural spread > of resistant mites. The Channel provides a natural barrier to mite > migration either from natural or human movement of bees and makes this > route much less likely. > > 2. We have been using pyrethroids in the UK since 1992. Mites may become > resistant to any chemical used routinely against them. Of course, misuse of active > ingredients of treatments or the treatment themselves rapidly > accelerates resistance onset. > > 3. The first case of pyrethroid resistance in the UK was found by > apiculture staff of my laboratory through a routine field screening > programme that includes both spot checks and targeting of sites where > treatment misuse is suspected. More information may be found on our > website (http://www.csl.gov.uk). The resistance problem was entirely > predictable and why we set up routine screening in the first place. It > is likely that other pockets of resistance will come to light as field > tests by ourselves and beekeeper organisations coninue. > > 4. Most areas of England and Wales we have tested have shown mite > numbers too low to provide valid tests or mites that are showing normal > pyrethroid susceptibility. Either way controls are working over the > majority of the country so far. The message to beekeepers outside the > resistant area is carry on using pyrethroids if that is your normal > control method, but test colonies routinely for resistance (we provide > methods to do this) and keep an eye on information coming from our > website or via our press releases that go to the beekeeping > associations. Above all the message is follow the treatment label to the > letter and don't be tempted or panicked into using so called treatments > of very dubious origin that a few people are peddling around the place > at the moment. It will only take one case of high residues in honey (we > have routine honey surveillance under EU rules) to wipe out consumer > confidence in the honey market. James -- ___________________________________________________________________________ James Morton South-Eastern Regional Bee Inspector Central Science Laboratory National Bee Unit Tel/fax: 020 8571 6450 Mobile: 07719 924 418 E-mail: j.morton@csl.gov.uk CSL website: http://www.csl.gov.uk National Bee Unit website: http://www.csl.gov.uk/prodserv/cons/bee/ ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:47:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Chewing out varroa mites in the purple eye stae Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit tvaughan@charter.net wrote in part: "To Blaine and Dennis, are you sure that F1 is the proper name for a daughter of a pure bred SMR queen? I think that the designation should rather go to the queens produced from the eggs layed by open mated daughters, which would be laying 25% plus SMR brood, depending on the daddy drones." Yes the open daughter of the SMR breeder queen is the F1 generation or hybrid. This is the cross that Harbo and Harris tested and found to have useful levels of varroa resistance. Spivak also tested this cross and showed very good honey production and varroa resistance in this hybrid cross ( open mated daughter of SMR breeder queens ). Because the SMR breeder has to be considered an inbred line the out cross of that line produces hybrid offspring ( offspring that express hybrid vigor ). When you cross these hybrids you get the F2 generation and will get separation of many of the traits. If instead you purchase another SMR breeder to raise the next generation of queens from, you will increase the SMR trait in those open mated daughters because the drones from the first generation SMR cross will carry the SMR trait. If you continue to do this for a few years you will have very high levels of SMR in your bees. You will of course want to do some selection of the colonies! and use the best for drone source so you bring along the other good traits that you want in your bees. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:18:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Resistant varroa mites in the UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi James and Everyone, In those areas where you have been using pyrethroids for about 10 years you will start to find resistance. That is our experience here and everywhere in the world where they have been used against varroa. Don't blame misuse. Resistance is the result of use, any use of pyrethoids to claim that it is only misuse that causes resistance it a flat out lie. Sorry for the frank language but any use of a treatment selects for resistance to that treatment whether the label is followed or not. Your resistance will spread more quickly than you may think and the best way to manage it is to provide and use treatments that have different mechanisms of action. For example if thymol products are available and have been shown to be reasonably effective ( note: I am assuming approved treatments with proper labels are available ) the best management course is to switch for one or two treatments to such products. In theory this should remove many of the mites that are showing increasing ! resistance to pyrethroids thereby delaying the development of full blown resistance. You would than get on a rotation program so you are not using the same treatment over and over and over. Here now Apistan ( our only approved pyrethroid treatment ) is pretty much useless for varroa control. The first documented case of Apistan resistance here in Minnesota USA was in an outfit that I am completely convinced was pretty much following the label completely but they had been treating a little longer than many other beekeepers because of picking up the mites a little before some and finding them when levels were low. Many beekeepers who are carefully following the label will find resistance when their colonies collapse due to high mite levels if you continue to hide your head in the sand and tell them that misuse is the cause. Again hard words but it happened here and caused a lot of damage to many good and careful beekeepers. Rotate to other approved treatments to try to extend the usefulness of the pyrethroid treatments you have or you will loose them more quickly than you think. Do all you can to avoid the situation we have where many many beekeepers have been forced to switch to a more toxic treatment to keep their bees alive and healthy. As you point out the residue issues from these treatments are much worse than the pyrethroid treatments. The best test for resistance is to monitor varroa populations before and after treatment so you know that the treatment actually worked. The trick is you cannot rely on mite drop on a sticky board from treatment since you need to know how many mites the treatment didn't and won't kill. Ether roll, sugar shake, and sticky board counts of natural mite fall will all work and give enough information to know if the treatment didn't work. Good luck and I really hope you can manage this resistance better than we have. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:22:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Resistant varroa mites in the UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello CSL and All, We on Bee-L admire you for coming forward on the number one beekeeping discussion list with your views. Those of us which have already been through the problem you are now facing want to help. You give excellent advice but you need to consider a couple points . > > 1. My laboratory is dealing with the resistance case in the UK. The most > > likely cause is through local misuse of Apistan and not natural spread > > of resistant mites. The Channel provides a natural barrier to mite > > migration either from natural or human movement of bees and makes this > > route much less likely. The English Channel in my opinion is not barrier. An ocean is a barrier. Fact is you have got resistance faster than anyplace in the world if you have gotten resistance in 6-7 years. Faster than even areas of misuse in the U.S. All evidense points to YOUR varroa already somewhat resistant to Apistan. > > 2. We have been using pyrethroids in the UK since 1992. Mites may become resistant to any chemical used routinely against them. True! But you are STILL not providing your U.K. beekeepers with two different methods of control so they can be alternated. In Canada the Canadians use formic acid in the spring and Apistan in the fall or viseversa. . You need in my opinion to register at least another control treatment to slow down the resistance or all bees in your country will be gone before the time YOU predicted resistance would hit. 10-11 years. Of course, misuse of active ingredients of treatments or the treatment themselves rapidly accelerates resistance onset. The bigger problem in the U.S. was in not getting a second control to alternate with than misuse ever was. You need to focus Medwin on what I am saying. The alternate control will knock those resistant mites down right away. You need to look to the future. You suggest testing which is correct BUT you provide no plan of action for those in your country finding Fluvalinate resistant mites. What would you suggest they do? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:58:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Resistant varroa mites in the UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. We do in fact have an alternative treatment available in the UK; Apiguard, which is a Thymol gel. It's marketed as a 'non-medicinal curative substance' (whatever that piece of nonsense means) in order to get round the regulations. I've used it for two seasons, and my mite numbers remain very low. However, I've found all through that I had so few mites that it was difficult to find them in the floor debris. Sticky tests yield the occasional mite, but often draw a blank. What I don't know is whether Thymol will deal with a situation where someone's hives locally collapse due to resistance. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham, UK. RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:31:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Resistant varroa mites in the UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Robert & All, The only information I have seen on the Thymol gel was done by Dr. Keith Delaplane in Georgia. Not a high kill rate if I remember but at least a control you could alternate with. Food grade mineral oil or perhaps the new folicel might help till a better idea comes along. I may be going out on a limb here but in the U.S. the U.S.D.A. does not press the issue of label violation when *food grade* controls are used. Some beekeepers put menthol cough drops in their hives to help control tracheal mites. The label on the box of Smith Brothers cough drops did not say *for use in beehives* but the FDA told me when I asked that they were not greatly concerned unless they had a complaint by a consumer of contamination. . Smear peanut butter or jelly across the frame of a hive and little notice will be taken. Misuse of chemical is another matter. At least one fine of $10,000 (U.S.) has been applied for using a chemical against label in beehives. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:44:14 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: HOME Subject: Re: Resistant varroa mites in the UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James, May I state that I am in full support with the points put forward by Bob relating to the probable source of V.d. in the British Isles - they came from a population that most probably had been in contact with pyrethoid agents for several years already. Having arrived and "settled" the advised treatment was sensible - but no one should be surprised about the relatively rapid appearance of resistance, as mentioned, their antecedents had already been doused - possibly with legal and illegal treatment methods. So, what to do now - follow official lines based on the same chemical family? It will work until it stops working - fine! - if that is to be accepted But if beekeepers realise that this is a for a relatively limited period of time and they will possibly loose their colonies many will resort to homemade techniques - just like in the rest of the world. This will be made even more likely if there is no alternative alternating treatment put in place NOW! British beekeepers must take the chance, get a second unrelated treatment method officially recognised as soon as possible to limit the spread of cardboard dipped in Amitraz etc. The pathway is already written as found in the reports filed in other countries. At the same time: really push for a genuine and extensive program of trying to create naturally resistant bees - there is a fair choice to investigate and more importantly to add to. Get that project well known in the beekeeping world, and get the beekeepers involved. Let others know what is happening - success or failure - just ensure that knowledge is passed on and not kept in the shelves of research establishments. We beekeepers and researchers need each other! Peter P.S. Thanks Medwin for your comments! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:42:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 7 Sep 2001 to 10 Sep 2001 (#2001-247) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/09/01 08:21:42 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Tracheal mites >> The licance of the only legal treatment for Acarine (tracheal) mites expired in the UK some years ago and has not been renewed. Therefore there has been no chemical treatment available and no demand for one. Generally acarine is a non problem unless one has imported bees, usually of the Italian type. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:17:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: no reply Comments: To: Barry Birkey Comments: cc: robt_m@TALK.CO.NZ, Dee Lusby , Blane.White@STATE.MN.US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry, Most beekeepers are using controls which work .Apistan in places and Coumaphos (98%). You will ONLY see pupa being chewed out with hives not treated chemically. There are simply no varroa to chew out. Not rocket science! What those pictures tell me is varroa is reproducing in small cell and those hives have got a high mite load. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:50:31 -0400 Reply-To: Barb Miller Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barb Miller Subject: Re: Beekeepers Cookbook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kevin, I have included three urls that list recipes for alternative mite treatments which I hope that you would see fit to include in your cookbook. I have just begun experimenting with the wintergreen/salt patty and the paper towel soaked with wintergreen/canola for varroa so can't recommend them myself. http://rnoel.virtualave.net/2000/part2.htm ( grease patty recipe for combating varroa mites) http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/treatmix.htm (menthol & canola recipe for paper towels - trachael mite) http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/varroa2.htm (lists recipe for honey/wintergreen/water feeding solution) Barb Miller Keeping bees in N. Central PA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:31:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Cost of Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Bob Harrison wrote: I would guess it might take five years to get a good production SMR bee bred. In my opinion they will NEVER produce as the current Italian line I am using does but I could be wrong." Bob, First I would like to thank you for the work you are doing with SMR lines. I hope you are successful in instilling this trait into your Italians. Your work can benefit us all. I started out with Italians, tried some hybrids, Buckfasts and others. In my area I find that Carnolians produce almost as well (and in some cases better) as Italians, but this may be due to location rather than race. I switched to "mostly" Carnolians a number of years ago for T-mite reasons. I still run both primarily because if I purchase any packages they have Italian queens. My highest single colony record was with an Italian queen from such a package. Most "hot" colonies I have encountered were always Italian. My point of the post is not to compare the two races but to suggest that if we look at over all production and viability of a colony possibly the costs of keeping a more vulnerable, albeit better producer, may not be in our best interest. If I am forced to constantly treat and worry about resistance and then stronger chemicals because of the resistance , maybe I am better off with less production and less problems associated with it (if I don't have to treat as often or use stronger treatments). Last year I did not use Checkmite and lost many colonies. This year, as much as I detested doing so, I used it. I am not happy on this chemical merry go around and I am not sure I will continue to ride. However if I can avoid this in the future but must sacrifice some production I am more than willing to do so. I realize that my livelihood does not depend on this production and my perspective may be different if it did. Beekeeping in the US changed dramatically with the arrival of mites. Our friends overseas are now just finding out how much. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about how things were because tomorrow they may change again. (I won't be able to board an airplane next week as easily as last week.) My goal is to cope with the changes and look for the best overall solution to the problem. I am really hoping that SMR will play a big part in this. On the lighter side, last week I heard a brand new reason why not to buy honey. "Your honey looks so good that we would just eat it all to the bottom of the jar." I guess there is a place for foul tasting, poorly packaged honey. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA +