From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:35:47 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.9 required=2.4 tests=AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648CA487CE for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3rs010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:37 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0201B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 90027 Lines: 1930 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 19:16:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Laying Workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here is a characteristic I have not read about so I wonder if "everyone" knows about it. I removed a colony of bees and all their comb from a wall and, as usual, went off and left about a quart of bees remaining. I later discovered that there was not a queen among the ones I had removed. A month later I went back and discovered that about a pint of bees had made two small pieces of new comb about 6 inches long. (This is Guam where the daily temperature range is from 87 to 75 degrees F.) I removed it into a hive body as before and noticed one had some capped brood so presumed that the original queen had remained with them. By now I had learned how to recover all the bees. (I describe this at .) But the next day when I went through this small "colony", I convinced myself there was no queen with them. Then I noticed that all the sealed brood cells were drone "bullet" cells. Presumably they were from eggs laid by laying workers. (I can't see the eggs themselves without a magnifying glass.) I have read about laying workers, of course, although I have never seen any so far as I know. But I didn't realize that the laying urge was strong enough to cause them to build new comb to receive the eggs. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:41:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: horizontal and vertical pathogen transmission Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Infestation dynamics and reinvasion of Varroa destructor mites in honey bee colonies kept isolated and in groups Apidologie 32 (2001) 453–520 Experimental colonies were kept at a military training area and at a research station, neither of which was accessible to other beekeepers. The colonies were distributed as follows: (1) isolated colonies (no other colonies within a distance of 1.5 km; n = 9); (2) colonies in groups (two apiaries, each with three colonies); (3) control colonies, which were kept at distances between 1 and 800 m from an infested apiary and were continuously treated with a contact acaricide. In all colonies, the numbers of honey bees and brood cells were evaluated at 3-week intervals (March–November) by the Liebefeld method, and samples of bees and brood were analyzed for V. destructor infestation. In March, infestations of between 100 and 1000 mites per colony were calculated. Mites on the bottom boards of the control colonies were counted at weekly intervals to record the mite invasion rate. The maximum infestation values were recorded in August with 7000–46000 mites per colony. The colonies were clearly damaged by this extreme V. destructor infestation, and only two colonies were able to overwinter. *** The mite population dynamics were independent of the number of colonies kept in the same location (isolated vs. group colonies), and independent of the initial level of infestation (r2 = 0.06 ns). The majority of mites in the control colonies were observed in August and November. During this period, an average of 2150, 1300 and 1010 mites arrived in colonies directly in the apiary and in the colonies at distances of 300 and 800 m from the apiaries, respectively. The peak arrival of mites was correlated with the breakdown of infested colonies. An infestation rate of 100–1000 Varroa mites early in the year can, therefore, lead to the damage of colonies already in summer, independently of further invasion by V. destructor. The rate of reinvasion increases significantly during the late season and cannot be effectively prevented by distances < 1 km between infested apiaries. *** For good beekeeping practice, (1) a low initial infestation in spring; and (2) anti-V. destructor treatment of all colonies at the same time is required. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:40:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Do bee diseases evolve to be more benign? Comments: cc: "queenbee@GIL.COM.AU" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor Weatherhead said: > But A. cerana is also able to tolerate V. destructor > and A. mellifera is in the situation where V. jacobsoni will not > reproduce on. > Nor will V. destructor reproduce on A. cerana that is the natural > host of V. jacobsoni and V. jacobsoni will not reproduce on the > A. cerana that is the natural host of V. destructor. > Why will V. destructor reproduce, quite successfully, on A. mellifera > whereas V. jacobsoni will not? There has been much confusion. This should help clear up some of it. Here's results from actual hands-on experiments by someone who: a) Knew up front that he was dealing with two very different mites and two very different bees b) Took an approach completely free of fuzzy thinking c) Explained himself and his tests in plain English. (Overall, excellent work. I don't know the fellow, but we each owe him at least a beer.) http://www.agralin.nl/wda/abstracts/ab3010.html Which says, in part: "Differential reproduction of mites in both host-species, A. cerana and A. mellifera, seems to be a key factor in susceptibility of honey bees to Varroa (Buchler, 1994; Rosenkranz & Engels, 1994). In European A. mellifera colonies mites reproduce in both worker and drone brood and mite numbers increase rapidly. In colonies of... A. cerana, mites invade both types of brood cells but refrain from reproducing in worker cells (Boot et al., 1997). Thus, in A. cerana mite numbers can only increase when drones are being reared. In African and africanised A. mellifera races a high percentage of mites that invade worker brood also refrain from reproducing (Camazine, 1986; Ritter, 1993). Therefore, like A. cerana, African and africanised honey bees are less susceptible to Varroa. I studied whether refraining from reproduction in worker brood is due to a trait of the honey bee or due to a trait of the mite (Chapter 6). By transferring Varroa mites originating from A. mellifera colonies to A. cerana worker brood and vice versa there appeared to be two distinct mite populations with a different reproductive strategy. Mites originating from A. mellifera reproduced in worker brood in both species of honey bee, whereas mites originating from A. cerana reproduced in drone brood only. Later, genetic studies of Varroa mites (Anderson & Trueman, 2000) made clear that the two [mite] populations in fact belong to different species. The mites that parasitise Western honey bees originate from Korea and Japan and were erroneously called V. jacobsoni and have been recently named V. destructor (Anderson & Trueman, 2000). Regardless, the entire question is more than a bit of a non-sequitor. While mites (including V. destructor) may carry diseases, they are not a disease in themselves. The original question attempted to apply a theory about microbiological forms of life (viruses, et al) to macrobiological forms of life (bees and mites). Viruses and other microbiological forms of life can go through a "generation" in the time it takes you to read this sentence. Therefore, they can mutate, "adapt", and "evolve" much much more quickly than mites and/or bees. How long have bees remained essentially unchanged? Longer than most living things currently on the planet. Did bees somehow learn to "adapt" to tracheal mites? No. Bees had to be cross-bred to create even slight advantages. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:17:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Coumaphos use In-Reply-To: <200201080500.g0850nh02438@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >My question is how did/does anyone dispose of these strips and conform with >the label. the label I have says to wrap in newspapers and dispose in a >sanitry land fill. I don't know about the rest of the country but we >haven't had a landfill in Massachusetts in 20 years. My take on it is that if you put them in the municipal trash system, you have fulfilled your obligation to the label. You cannot know where they go next. We are in the same situation here: the trash is hauled out of state to ??? pb NY ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:01:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Cell size and Varroa invasion Comments: To: Gavin Ramsay In-Reply-To: <200201061853.g06Irdh15732@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii How might small cell size impact on this behaviour? I suppose that it is not the best time to ask 4.9 trialists (in the N hemisphere at any rate) to look to see if the headspace above larvae in 4.9 cells is deeper than normal (or shallower for that matter), but does anyone have any observations? Reply: This was research written on this topic in a way, but under the heading of protruding cells way back in the 1980s. At any rate, with the 4.9mm you will have less distance and not more for broodcombs. Also spacing between frames will be less. Average of 10-11 frames is needed depending upon choice of beekeeper to fit his field methods. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 00:24:01 -0000 Reply-To: Gavin Ramsay Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Do bee diseases evolve to be more benign? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim > How long have bees remained essentially unchanged? Longer > than most living things currently on the planet. Did bees > somehow learn to "adapt" to tracheal mites? No. Bees had > to be cross-bred to create even slight advantages. I hesitate to disagree with you ... but I do! Bees are under just as much selective pressure as other organisms on the planet, and they respond to this selection. Tracheal mites are a good example - UK bees are said to be largely resistant whereas some strains in other countries are not. Why? Natural selective pressure from the mite, survival of the fittest. Just the same is happening now with Varroa destructor, the typical epidemic-devastation-recovery cycle. There are parts of the world where man has not intervened in the struggle between mite and bee, and the result was the faster emergence of resistant bees. Thomas Rinderer's Russian bees are one example. However, treating bees for Varroa breaks this selective force for resistance, and slows or stops any beneficial change in the genetics of bee populations. All the bees survive, not just those with combinations of genes that help fight Varroa. The article that started this discussion, if I remember correctly, implied that the move towards a peaceful co-existence of host and disease or parasite occurs on both sides. It may be in the interests of Varroa itself to learn how to stop hurting its host so much. Maybe - but practically we can really only help the bee adapt. You are right of course that the appearance of new mutations will be slower in bees (and mites too) than in microorganisms. But bees have the advantage that populations already carry quite a bit of genetic diversity, and this can be acted upon by selection. A major challenge for beekeepers now is to understand these natural forces, and use this insight to help shift the genetic make-up of our bees towards the accumulation of these traits that give resistance. Some are doing it already. Gavin. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:43:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leigh Subject: Re: Coumaphos use In-Reply-To: <200201081821.g08ILhh18035@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >We are in the same situation here: the trash is >hauled out of state to ??? >pb >NY Virginia - with possible unsuspecting contamination to all the workers along the line. lh VA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 11:13:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Timing of Varroa treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said "In my view, spring treatments for varroa are useless. Think about it - assume you have a single-digit mite fall using whatever test method you wish. Since you have no chance at all of killing all the mites in spring, you are exchanging one small number of mites for another small number of mites, and in the process, exposing bees, wax, and mites to a pesticide during a period that may be too cool to allow the pesticide to be fully effective." Jim is certainly not alone in his opinion, but there is also much opinion, and success, in using spring treatment. Unless I am much mistaken, for many years Medhat Nasr, while at the University of Guelph, advocated spring treatment with Apistan and fall treatment with formic acid. Absent resistance, Apistan will kill 99.8% of Varroa, leaving mite levels so low that they are unlikely to significantly damage colonies in the summer. In the fall, formic will kill something like 85% of mites. I believe that formic might have been chosen for fall treatment as the temperatures are likely to be higher in the fall than in the spring, and formic will not work well in low temperatures. The whole idea of not using two annual treatments of Apistan is to delay the onset of resistance. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release Date: 12/4/01 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 07:18:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Richtmeyer Subject: Re: Coumaphos use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I take my strip to a medical waste site. George ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:05:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: Timing of Varroa treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Lloyd, I would like to correct one thing in your statement about recommendations for use of formic acid and Apistan: I always advocated spring treatment with FORMIC ACID and fall treatment with APISTAN. In the spring, formic will kill something like 85%-95% of mites. As temperature gets higher in the spring, formic acid works better. In the fall, I found that bees tend to add propolis and wax to the perforated bags and seal the holes. When you also feed bees in the fall, bees will produce more wax and add this wax to the bags. Recently, I found that in New Jersey, honey bees have higher tendency to add produce a lots of propolis. God, those New Jersey girls are so good in producing propolis!!!!! Therefor, I am working on a different bag that can work even better in cold spring and fall. I hope that those bees will not be able to add much of propolis to the bags. In spring treatment formic acid fumes will spread in the cluster and kill mites. Any single female mite killed in the spring will result in reducing the mite population in the fall by about 1500 mites. Fall treatment of Apistan when resistance is absent, Apistan will kill 99.8% of Varroa. I support the Apistan fall treatment because you need to leave the strips in the hives for 6-8 weeks. During this long period, the bee colonies are protected from any invasion of varroa mites and mites coming with robing bees. If you use formic acid in the fall, treatment time will be 21 days (3 weeks). Bees can be reinfested with varroa mites after treatments. CheckMite can be used for replacing Apistan in areas where Apistan resistant varroa mites are found. I hope this will clarify this issue and answers the question. Have a Honey of a Year Med Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Blueberry and Cranberry Research Center Rutgers University, Chatsworth, New Jersey 08019, USA Ph. 609-726-1590 Ex 25 Fax. 609-726-1593 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:10:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Timing of Varroa treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/02 9:20:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, nasr@AESOP.RUTGERS.EDU writes: > I always advocated spring treatment with FORMIC ACID and fall treatment with > APISTAN. In the spring, formic will kill something like 85%-95% of mites. > As temperature gets higher in the spring, formic acid works better. In the > fall, I found that bees tend to add propolis and wax to the perforated bags > and seal the holes. Hi Medhat and Lloyd and all I would like to add that I was lucky enough to talk with Medhat on numerous occasions while he worked with us in the Ontario Beekeepers association. I have followed his recommendations every year but one (I missed the spring treatment with Formic acid and how I regretted that!) In that fall I had significant losses to Tracheal mites. Thus I can vouch that his recommendations work here in Ontario Canada. What is often not mentioned is that Formic acid is effective against both mites, whereas Apistan is effective only against Varroa. Medhat, in one of your presentation there was a graph that to me, a layman, indicated that Formic acid worked better on Tracheal mites in the spring when they seemed more vulnerable then than in the fall. Perhaps this is more an issue in our climate up here. You might add to that for us. I hope you will let us know when you develop the bag you mention. It sounds great and I believe that beekeepers in New Zealand would find it useful too, since they now have Varroa but not Veggie bags. Keep up the good work george ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:02:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Coumaphos use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is encouraging to see concerns over handling and disposal. While "the label is the law", the label is only the minimum requirements. One can do better. I suggest that we are obligated to do so. >> My question is how did/does anyone dispose of these strips and conform >> with the label. the label I have says to wrap in newspapers and dispose in a >> sanitary land fill. I don't know about the rest of the country but we >> haven't had a landfill in Massachusetts in 20 years. Most of the Coumaphos Section 18s are nearly identical copies of others, and say something like this (this is the Calif version) www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/sec18/pdf/01-05.htm ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS This pesticide is toxic to birds, fish and aquatic invertebrates. Do not apply directly to any body of water. Do not contaminate water when disposing of used strips. STORAGE and DISPOSAL Do not contaminate water, food or feed by storage or disposal. ....Securely wrap strips and/or container packaging in several layers of newspapers and dispose in a sanitary land fill. I was surprised to find that the EPA now feels that newspaper is an effective containment method for toxic substances, and an approved method for protecting birds, fish, invertebrates, and groundwater. This appears to be a new, creative, and innovative use of the term "Environmental Protection", one to which we hitherto have not been exposed. Face it - The "disposal" instructions are simply not clear enough to avoid the hazards described on the same label. The term "sanitary landfill" is a classic oxymoron, but worse, it is vague enough to guarantee that nearly 100% of the strips will end up in household trashcans, when any other pesticide would not be permitted to enter the general "solid waste mass". Now, imagine a junior high school biology quiz in 2045: Which was the most dangerous product created between 1920 - 2000 in the trans-national conglomerates' attempts to offer "better living through chemistry"? a) DDT b) Agent Orange c) Tang Orange Drink d) Organophosphates e) Methamphetamines f) Saran Wrap > My take on it is that if you put them in the municipal trash > system, you have fulfilled your obligation to the label. This may be the MINIMUM requirement, but the next line is the ominous hollow thunk of the other shoe dropping: > You cannot know where they go next. If you don't know where it goes, how can you send it there? Everything has to go somewhere, after all. "Somewhere" is often near birds, fish, et al. Any pesticide is a "hazardous household waste", by definition. Most towns have "collection days", where one can take all one's toxic stuff to trained pros for proper disposal. The EPA describes and lists the local programs here: http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/non-hw/househld/hhw.htm But if one were to store one's coumaphos in a tightly-sealed "paint can" type can for up to a year with plans to take it to the disposal experts on your local annual "Haz-Mat Day", would one be violating the Section 18 regulations? I can't tell from the information provided. Here's an idea - take the sealed can to your local clinic or hospital. Explain exactly what it is. Take a copy of the label. They get regular Haz-Mat pickups. If they have any civic pride, they will put it in the "biohazard" bin. If they don't want your strips, stop by the fire department. Most fire departments have someone who has taken a Haz-Mat course, and can direct you to the correct local people. As wrapping things in newspaper, please recall that Clark Kent worked at the Daily Planet, so you can infer that there is no Kyrptonite in newsprint. ji ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:49:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Timing of Varroa treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Medhat! Just "another" George. After reading your comments about using Apistan in the fall and formic acid in the spring, I had to agree with you. As you "may know" from my writings, particularly in the PINK PAGES, I have STRONGLY advocated the use of Apistan LATE in the fall and always for 6 weeks but NEVER to exceed 8 weeks. Here in central Maryland, we always have 5-6 days in December where the temperature exceeds 50°, so we can remove Apistan because the bees are not clustered. I have installed my Apistan on October 1st on my 50-100 colonies and removed it the first 50° plus day after November 15th. Since few queen bees are laying any eggs after about November 1st, the mites have no bee larvae to lay their eggs, so perhaps I am getting 99.9% Varroa kill. The proof is my sticky board tests on April 1st, which are 0-1 mite, or my July 1st sticky board test which rarely exceed 20 mites. The problem seems to be that most beekeepers are not willing to take off from work to remove Apistan of a warm weekday; and hence start using Apistan EARLY, like September 1st, and maybe do not leave it in place for a full 6 weeks. I have been unable to persuade many beekeepers to hold off until October, and then they use Apistan 2-3 times per year. They say "George, you are retired and can tend to your bees on weekdays"; but I note they going to fall baseball games, hunting, fishing, etc. on weekdays and seem to mentally justify those work vacation days, but not to take care of their bees. It discourages me. If you are coming to ABF in Savannah next week, look me up. I have to conduct a workshop there, but it will be good to hear all about your new job at Rutgers. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Starting my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:53:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: formic use recommendations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by wglord@NCMAIL.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove the entire quote of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=F8633AF8) (84 lines) ------------------- Medhat; Would you mind going over your current recommendations for using formic acid? I am interested in the means of application and timing. thanks, Bill Lord -- William G Lord, Area Specialized Agent, Environmental Education North Carolina State University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences North Carolina Cooperative Extension 103 South Bickett Blvd., Louisburg, NC 27549 E-Mail : william_lord@ncsu.edu Phone : 919-496-3344 Fax : 919-496-0222 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:26:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Timing of Varroa treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reading George Imirie's comments relating to the varying time periods that people treat bee colonies with Apistan. In other branches of agricultural industry agreed dates are stipulated for various treatments (eg. Sheep dipping in England - or at least used to be so!). Relate this to comments found in previous mail(Horizontal and Vertical Pathogen Transmission) sent by Peter Borst. Mon 07/01/2002 Would it be acceptable to do the same for Varroa/Tracheal mite. And at the same time - insist that strips bought should be returned to the supplier. If this does not occur, then quantity returned will establish quantity sold next time. This would allow proper disposal to be organised. Also, limit the strips found lying in apiaries etc.. Arguments in the civil liberties realm surely are overridden by the real need to control pesticide pollution at all levels and in all directions. We are after all I presume - a responsible group of individuals caring about the environment. Regards Peter Indre France ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 22:29:23 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: formic use recommendations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Medhat, Whilst you are in flavour of the month! and if you comment on Formic Acid - any thoughts on Queen loss during this treatment. Good to hear from you! Peter Local french supermarket is selling Fresh Cranberries direct from States. How do you do it - can't get them to sell Cheddar Cheese!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:50:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leen and Maria van den Berg Subject: Re: Timing of Varroa treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We live in Northern Alberta (Peace River area) and we are (almost) unable to leave Apistan in the fall in our hives for six weeks. In the fall of 2001 we treated one yard with relatively high mite counts after removing the last honeysupers and we were wrapping five weeks later. We don't like to leave those strips in over winter, trying to avoid resistant mites building up faster yet.. When we removed the strips, most of the colonies already clustered. We have a very short, intensive season here and in the spring we have just about six weeks after unwrapping to use Apistan and putting up our first honey supers.I cannot see us waiting for a chinook day, unwrapping our hives and taking the strips out. There even may not be a chinook that winter. We treated another yard with three single applications of formic acid (4 days interval) and we didn't see much wax nor propolis buildup on those mite wipes, even though we were feeding. We used formic for tracheal mite infestation and hope it sets back varroa at least a little bit. . Maria van den Berg. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 03:17:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Keeping highly infested colonies with varroa In-Reply-To: <200201090511.g095B6h10076@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Natural selective pressure from the mite, survival > of the fittest. When starting with beekeeping, some things can stay in your mind even after many years will pass. I will try to share one my fascination which I can say is now pretty big part of my today beekeeping philosophy. After debacle of my first bee colony due to, in that time, for me unknown circumstances, I started to work for one of the biggest beekeepers in my country. In that time he had terrible time with varroa invasion. Digression: Americans and beekeepers from many other West-European countries can learn unbelievable lot from as (Eastern-Europeans) for what you call resistance to acaricide and alternative treatments for varroa... Being part time beekeeper with 500 and more hives he barely had control over situation. In his beeyard was opportunity for me, first and last time, to see some bee colonies with such infestation that most of the bees in the colony had 5 - 6 easily visible and very vivacious varoa mites on them. (That was due to resistance of acaricide he used before) I had time to observe and think and... my fascination was born. It is hard for me to describe here how bees had acting but generally, later in the research literature that behavior was described as grooming. I had a filling that individual bees are able to be sensitive about mite presentness only when infestation is really very big, and that if we want natural and faster resistance against varroa, we must create such environment in which colonies will be terrible invaded but SOMEHOW saved from death. I even made my plan how to make an experiment, but... Experiment was never been done because it was stopped by one, as I know now, very strong barrier: scared beekeeping professionalism. Namely, the beekeeper was not ready to sacrifice dozen or more of his bee colonies for that uncertain mission, because he believed that someone else will soon find something and also his primary goal was only money from honey and nuclei sold. But from that point in my beekeeping I adopt philosophy that I will never attempt to kill all (99%) mites (when treating) because I find out that bees will survive (and be enough but not maximum productive) with quite number of them. I cannot recall when I made chemical treatment twice in one year - I always do it once but I must admit that is very important WHEN the treatment is done, and also few "minor" things, like how much care is taken about drifting of bees in the yard. I can say that in recent years, few beehives (always different) is left untreated 2 years. All this has become actualized this last autumn when I had a chance to attend beekeeping symposium in Croatia where I had opportunity to listen Dr. Ralph Buchler and Alberto Millani lectures/reports. They are starting to recommend (still very overmodestly) using two or three different alternative treatments in the year, which has 60 - 70% efficacy. Finally, here is my (maybe naive) idea about experiment which I had never had a chance to conduct: I planned to use 2 groups of bee colonies. One group will be chemically treated against varroa and other will be highly infested. This infested colonies will be saved with adding frames with mostly capped brood from treated colonies. Did anybody have heard of such keeping of highly infested colonies with varroa? And what is you opinion/prediction about eventual outcome of this trial? ===== Aleksandar Mihajlovski, editor of Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" Ul. Helsinki 41 a, 1000 Skopje, Macedonia Tel./Fax(modem): ++ 389 2 363-424 E-mail: melitagora@yahoo.com Join "Apimak", Macedonian discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apimak __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Timing of Varroa treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: > In other branches of agricultural industry agreed dates are stipulated > for various treatments (eg. Sheep dipping in England - or at least used > to be so!). > Would it be acceptable to do the same for Varroa/Tracheal mite. > Regards > Peter > Indre > France The obvious problem with this in the US is it a big country with different climates and temperatures at the same time of year. You go from tropical to tundra. And you cannot tell by latitude what the climate will be. We looked at something like this in Maine - a set time to treat for varroa-, but it never got past the look. Even here the differences are fairly large, from both north to south and east to west. So it will not work in many States. And then there is enforcement... Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:25:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: formic use recommendations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is my only 7th year of bee-having in Shawnee, OK, yet I have not lost a single colony to either mites by treating my eight colonies--mostly Russians/Italians--only once in the fall. What works for me, I realize, may not work for everyone; however, I refuse to put the honey on my table that came from the colonies, treated, not once but twice a year, whether the beekeeper had followed the label to the letter or not: 1) Given the level of infestation of both mites and given the idiosyncratic disposition of unknown individual beekeepers, one can, it appears, never completely wipe out mites. 2) Last year I collected two strong feral colonies, which, the property owners attest, had been there many a year despite the mites. Isolated anecdotes? Of course. But the fact that they managed themselves without "my bright idea" makes me wonder and ponder the scheme of things in the universe. 3) I have no desire to contribute another red cent to the pharmaceutical companies that seem to have judiciously MONOPOLIZED the market thanks to most of us: the current price for these chemicals is jaw-dropping. (I don't think they are my in-laws, either.) 4) The fine line between over-medicating and not doing it enough seems to depend on individual ontological circumstance. For instance, I refuse to terramycin my bees for the simple dread of the ubiquitous AFB spores. Let them come when they come: I will burn them to hell. (Would you take AZT, while being monogamous, simply because of your fear of getting AIDS and simply because they say it is an excellent drug?) 5) Hypochondriacs may want to medicate their bees twice proactively propelled by their perfectionist instinct. More power to them! Such aggressive treatment will aggravate human negligence, contributing to resistance: I see three survivors stagger out of the hive, having persevered the soup of torture, heading to my apiary. Almost all bee problems, according to my limited observation, did not come from the bees themselves; indeed “No good deed should go unpunished.” Think about AHB, for example. 6) Given the spongy nature of the wax, I seriously doubt that a beekeeper will completely remove the chemical residues in and on it, even if he/she follows the direction with religious vigor. How about the microscopic residues on the wood? 7) Are we assisting the bees, like a midwife, to channel their inherent nature or are we imposing our anthropomorphic iron will on the listener that cannot hear? Do you suppose that the bees will disappear if we fail to medicate when, in fact, they have survived eons on their own, thank you very much, before the advent of human gods? Yesterday, we had the second day in the 70’s F in January, a crazy weather pattern which, I pray, we all-knowing humans have not contributed to: the second week of January is supposed to be the coldest of the winter in Oklahoma! My bees flew in all eight directions, third time this winter. When I opened up the hives, the girls boiled out as if to say, “Hello there! We haven’t smelled you for a while.” Many of them have yet to touch the second deep, full of last year’s honey. And I thought out loud, “Hmmm. . . . I have been a good servant, a born monk in the monastery of my apiary.” And I am resolved to remind myself that I am their maid, an indentured servant, and never their Master. Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D. (HUMDINGER) Chair/Humanities Division St.Gregory’s University 1900 West MacArthur Shawnee, OK 74804 yskim@sgc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:36:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Cooper Subject: Coumaphos Disposal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If you are having trouble disposing the material as directed under the section 18 let your state pesticide people know (personally or through your state association) that the requirement is a problem and they need to come up with a solution and provide better directions. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:29:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Medicating Twice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is my only 7th year of beekeeping in Shawnee, OK, yet I have not lost a single colony to either mites by treating my eight colonies--mostly Russians/Italians--only once in the fall. What works for me, I realize, may not work for everyone; however, I refuse to put the honey on my table that came from the colonies, treated, not once but twice a year, whether the beekeeper had followed the label to the letter or not: 1) Given the level of infestation of both mites and given the idiosyncratic disposition of unknown individual beekeepers, one can, it appears, never completely wipe out mites. 2) Last year I collected two strong feral colonies, which, the property owners attest, had been there many a year despite the mites. Isolated anecdotes? Of course. But the fact that they managed themselves without "my bright idea" makes me wonder and ponder the scheme of things in the universe. 3) I have no desire to contribute another red cent to the pharmaceutical companies that seem to have judiciously MONOPOLIZED the market thanks to most of us: the current price for these chemicals is jaw-dropping. (I don't think they are my in-laws, either.) 4) The fine line between over-medicating and not doing it enough seems to depend on individual ontological circumstance. For instance, I refuse to terramycin my bees for the simple dread of the ubiquitous AFB spores. Let them come when they come: I will burn them to hell. (Would you take AZT, while being monogamous, simply because of your fear of getting AIDS and simply because they say it is an excellent drug?) 5) Hypochondriacs may want to medicate their bees twice proactively propelled by their perfectionist instinct. More power to them! Such aggressive treatment will aggravate human negligence, contributing to resistance: I see three survivors stagger out of the hive, having persevered the soup of torture, heading to my apiary. Almost all bee problems, according to my limited observation, did not come from the bees themselves; indeed “No good deed should go unpunished.” Think about AHB, for example. 6) Given the spongy nature of the wax, I seriously doubt that a beekeeper will completely remove the chemical residues in and on it, even if he/she follows the direction with religious vigor. How about the microscopic residues on the wood? 7) Are we assisting the bees, like a midwife, to channel their inherent nature or are we imposing our anthropomorphic iron will on the listener that cannot hear? Do you suppose that the bees will disappear if we fail to medicate when, in fact, they have survived eons on their own, thank you very much, before the advent of human gods? Yesterday, we had the second day in the 70’s F in January, a crazy weather pattern which, I pray, we all-knowing humans have not contributed to: the second week of January is supposed to be the coldest of the winter in Oklahoma! My bees flew in all eight directions, third time this winter. When I opened up the hives, the girls boiled out as if to say, “Hello there! We haven’t smelled you for a while.” Many of them have yet to touch the second deep, full of last year’s honey. And I thought out loud, “Hmmm. . . . I have been a good servant, a born monk in the monastery of my apiary.” And I am resolved to remind myself that I am their maid, an indentured servant, and never their Master. Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D. (HUMDINGER) Chair/Humanities Division St.Gregory’s University 1900 West MacArthur Shawnee, OK 74804 yskim@sgc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:11:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Coumaphos use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jim writes: >This may be the MINIMUM requirement, but the next line is the ominous hollow thunk of the other shoe dropping: >> You cannot know where they go next. >If you don't know where it goes, how can you send it there? Everything has to go somewhere, after all. "Somewhere" is often near birds, fish, et al. and he provides this link: http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/non-hw/househld/hhw.htm there you find: >Safe Management Methods > > Tip #3 > Follow any instructions for disposal and use provided on the label. > > Tip #4 > Take household hazardous waste to a local collection program, if available. My one and only point was *** Follow the label instructions! *** Many people assume that they know better than the people that wrote the label, hence all sorts of ABUSES. Jim's point , that one can do better, is well taken, -- provided it is better, and within the law. If there is a local hazardous waste collection program one would be wise to use it. If not, then follow the label, which is the law. >The Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) provides penalties for pesticide use “inconsistent with the labeling of the pesticide” and makes it illegal to store or dispose of pesticides or containers other than as directed by regulations. Pesticide containers must be stored and disposed of according to label directions. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:50:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: formic use recommendations & queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter and bee-L memebers: We use 250 ml of 65% formic acid as a single application. A fiber board (Made in Canada) (8"x 8.5"x 5/8") is placed inside a perforated veggie bag. The perforated bag has 700 pen holes in each side. The formic acid is absorbed in the pad. The pad is placed on sticks (4"x0.5" x0.5") on the top bars. This to keep the pads away from the bee cluster. This will require adding a rim 1-1.5" under the inner cover to accommodate the pad. The application time is 3 weeks. In our experiments and Ontario beekeepers' experiences we have not had any queen kill for the last 4 years. Again, I would say recommendations have to be adjusted to the location. No single recommendation will fir all. It is a temperature dependant treatment. Peter mentioned "In other branches of agricultural industry agreed dates are stipulated for various treatments (eg. Sheep dipping in England - or at least used to be so!). Hey Peter, we working with bees not sheeps!!!! (Happy new year, When will I see you again?). For Maria van den Berg from Alberta, I assume that you are using the Mitewipe multiple application pads. In this application you apply 40ml/pad/ hive. It is applied every 4 days. When I developed this pad, I found that 3 applications are good for tracheal mites and 6 applications are good for varroa mites. So, you are following the recommendation for applying formic for tracheal mites and Apistan for varroa. I understand your statement that there is no time to remove the strips in your part of the world. This statement goes again with my statement on the top. There is no single recommendation fit all. We should not have a global recommendation for a miticide to fit all beekeeping practices and weather conditions. Med Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Blueberry and Cranberry Research Center Rutgers University, Chatsworth, New Jersey 08019, USA Ph. 609-726-1590 Ex 25 Fax. 609-726-1593 ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Dillon To: Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: Re: formic use recommendations > Medhat, > Whilst you are in flavour of the month! and if you comment on Formic > Acid - any thoughts on Queen loss during this treatment. > Good to hear from you! > Peter > > Local french supermarket is selling Fresh Cranberries direct from > States. How do you do it - can't get them to sell Cheddar Cheese!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:55:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Bassett Subject: Re: formic use recommendations & queens On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:50:07 -0500, Medhat Nasr wrote: >Subject: Re: formic use recommendations > > since we are dealing with pesticide labels this week, last I knew formic acid gel was approved in the U.S. but had not been re-registered for use. Has formic acid now been approved for use on Bees in the U.S.? mike bassett massachusetts ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:41:41 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Keeping highly infested colonies with varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aleksander, Logic states that your suggested experiment would be better conducted in the locations where V.d. has been present over a relatively extended period and where acaricide resistance is highly pronounced. It would be in these regions that bees would (could) have developed a higher resistance against the presence of mites - what ever the technique! - if it has or is occurring. How about contacting IBRA in Cardiff. UK. They are putting on a conference on Bees in Temperate regions of the World in the relatively near future. Maybe they can get somebody on to the hypothesis. Peter Inure France ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:06:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Timing of Varroa treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, Nasr and all others commenting on this perennial problem, Comments arising from the suggestion trying to introduce some organisation into the periods when V.d. is treated reflect the simplistic manner in which I put my suggestions on to the list. Bill is quite right to emphasis the problems of diverse geography etc. To clarify this matter: I am not advocating that the whole of the Americas, E.U. etc. treat at the same time. What I am advocating is that at local level (County, Department, Parish, group, Association) or at what would be deemed possible, there be measures put into place where neighbouring beekeepers treat within an agreed period. This would have to take into account such matters as local geomorphology, spatial distribution of hives, normal weather patterns and other restrictions to practice. At least in areas that were able to implicate this order, the chance of rapid re-infestation of mites would be greatly limited. Problems would still occur in boundary areas adjacent to regions having other applied practices. This, it seems to me would be no worse than what is happening at the present. Spend monies on treatment material and giving time to its application - only then having the greater benefit ruled to level not much above zero due to a neighbour treating at another time. Regarding enforcement - Nobody likes being told what to do and when to do it! - But if it is explained that what you as an individual are doing will be helping yourself and others - where is the logic in disagreement! Resistance: A mite that has been dosed in one hive, moved to another as a colony breaks down or just by drifting (what ever the transfer mode) then dosed again at a level not conducive to proper control - will not this also aid development of resistance? If it was explained that non participation would eventually result in your own hives getting into trouble - most individuals would concede! I agree, there are always a few that will not co-operate. Hence, the suggestion of controlled supply and return of used strips in the case of Apistan, Checkmite. This will also limit unintended / accidental pollution by pesticides and PVC plastics (latter adding to Acid Rainfall amounts). As a group of individuals, we are good at forming groups for this, that and the other - why not medication practice. (Medhat - organised dipping of sheep was practiced in U.K. to control SCAB, caused by a mite! - but agree, bees have no wool). Returning to Formic Acid treatment and Queen loss - appreciating the the circumstances are different, Formic Acid fumigation in winter buildings appears to increase queen mortality rates - whilst appearing to be able to control V.d. (investigation underway by Dr. Rob Currie/Robyn Underwood at Univ. of Manitoba. Canada). This type of mite control presumably is of interest to those under pressure from climatic conditions, such as Maria in Peace River area, Alberta. If this type of treatment becomes possible - then what! A certain % of beekeepers treating at the end of the season outdoors, whilst others wait for a treatment indoors. - All in the name of control. There is going to be a wide difference in mite populations in these hives. Please remember that (tongue in cheek!) I am beekeeping here in France, well renowned for perfect order and organisation. Peter. Indre, France. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:13:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Timing of Varroa treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: > As a group of individuals, we are good at forming groups for this, that > and the other - why not medication practice. Peter, One other problem is we really do not know everyone in an area who keeps bees. You are supposed to register your bees, but in Maine it is estimated that there were two to five times the number of beekeepers than those registered. So you can have a program but not include everyone anyway. (That number is probably closer to two or three now.) Plus, we have over 60,000 hives visit us every summer bringing all the new and exciting problems from around the country. And they do swarm. >From a practical point of view, nature has a way of fixing the problem. Many beekeepers in my area no longer keep bees because they lost them to Varroa or other problems and it became a chore and not a "no effort" hobby. So natural selection is at work with both beekeepers and bees. And those of us who are left tend to treat about the same time anyway. So with no program we have a program. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:56:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Keeping highly infested colonies with varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Regarding Aleksander's proposed experiment to keep highly infested colonies with varroa, Peter wrote: > Logic states that your suggested experiment would be better > conducted in the locations where V.d. has been present over a relatively extended > period and where acaricide resistance is highly pronounced. I'm not sure this is necessarily so. As I interpret it, the goal of Aleksander's proposed experiment is twofold; Attempting to isolate bees that can coexist with varroa AT THE SAME TIME that he is attempting to NOT develop a line of Varroa d. that is highly resistant to manmade chemical treatments. His proposed experiment included two sets of hives: ones to be treated to keep varroa at bay and ones to be left to the ravages of varroa. If the "ravaged" hives reached critical Varroa levels, he proposed to boost them with Varroa-free brood from the treated hives. I assume it is from the ravaged hives that he would choose his stock best able to exist with varroa. The logic of conducting this experiment in the locations where V.d. has been present over a relatively extended period and where acaricide resistance is highly pronounced may give a "better" starting point towards tolerant bees, but is a bad starting place for maintaining a population of Varroa d. that is NOT resistant to chemicals. This later goal (maintaining a population of Varroa d. that is NOT resistant to chemicals) struck me as a similar strategy to the GMO Bt crops, where farmers are encouraged to plant non-GMO fields in close proximity to their GMO fields so the populations of targeted pests don't quickly develop into plagues of Bt-resistant super bugs. The rational here being that the Bt GMO survivor bugs will fly over and mate with the ravaging bugs in the non-Bt GMO fields, thereby maintaining an overall gene pool that is not dominated by Bt-resistant genes. It is plausible in theory that bugs from treated fields will mate with bugs from non-treated fields hence maintaining a general population that is not stacked at the resistant end. In reality it is doubtful that the numbers game will work out that way, but that discussion belongs on a different list. The model of maintaining an overall gene pool that is not dominated by Bt-resistant genes does not apply in Aleksander's proposed experiment due to the difference in reproduction in insects in general vs. reproduction in Varroa specifically. Insects are open mated and the gene pool mixes more freely. However, Varroa reproduction is closed within the single colony environment (brothers mating with sisters in sealed cells). This is not to say that there is NEVER gene cross-over, but the reality of the numbers game makes it even LESS likely that the population of non-chemical resistant Varroa in Aleksander's yards will stand much of a chance of thriving/surviving/propagating in an open environment that is dominated by chemical treatment survivors. The probability is that the susceptible gene pool will be overwhelmed by the resistant gene pool simply because the "open environment" has been stacked with chemical survivors. The Varroa population in the ravaged hives will be akin to "heirloom seeds"! They still exist solely because efforts are made to maintain the heirlooms. This issue of what has the Varroa gene pool become is a big part of the overall Varroa problem and a BIG reason that it is so important that chemical treatments be abandoned. As long as the majority of the beekeeping industry continues using chemical treatments, Varroa will continue to become more resistant to them. IT'S HOW THE MODEL WORKS! Tom Barret has been lamenting the futility of the chemical treatments: > So meantime we must soldier on with the chemicals, and to a > lesser extent the IPM treatments, waiting for the silver bullet IPM is perhaps the best weapon we're going to get. Integrated Pest Management INCLUDES(!) chemical treatments as part of the integrated management. The reason people won't accept IPM as a silver bullet is it's not as easy as inserting a strip today and taking it out at a later convenient date (or leaving it in until it is convenient or just forgetting about it because it's never convenient). Perhaps the "silver bullet" is a beekeepers Holy Grail. Perhaps it simply doesn't exist. Truth is, today anyone can beat Varroa destructor by employing any number of strategies that will give their bees the upper hand. Truth is, IPM is not as easy as strip in/strip out, but it will work. Folks will argue that IPM is simply too labor intensive for commercial enterprise, and I will not argue against them. The bottom line in that is there is no acceptable approved Varroa destructor treatment on today's market that will support a viable commercial operation. NONE! The chemicals aren't doing it folks! The short-lived band aid chemical solutions are failing miserably. IPM includes: mechanical controls (drone trapping, sugar dusting, sticky boards, etc) breeding controls (SMR bees, Russian bees), monitoring Varroa levels Formic (and other) acids I' not a convinced/converted 49er, but I won't count it out either. FGMO? and yes, IPM includes chemicals controls, but only after monitoring shows that the other methods aren't keeping varroa below damaging levels. Anything less and one isn't practicing IPM. And steering clear of IPM waiting for the next best chemical control is just lame beekeeping. And lamenting that one can't make a living off bees without cheap easy chemical controls is living in ignorant bliss(?) of the fact that your own ledgers are telling you that you are embracing a doomed pursuit of trying to make a living off bees without cheap easy chemical controls! Economy has no feelings! It's like Nature! Nature doesn't lament when natural disasters claim hundreds or thousands! Economics don't lament when the bottom line claims causalities either! It just is. So, to wrap up this epistle, interesting experiment proposed as it looks at the another end of the Varroa problem (breeding a better mite), but it seems an uphill battle. Silver bullet? Best practice IPM while you're waiting. Aaron Morris - thinking gone for the weekend! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:07:15 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Keeping highly infested colonies with varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, ".....The logic of conducting this experiment in the locations where V.d. has been present over a relatively extended period and where acaricide resistance is highly pronounced may give a "better" starting point towards tolerant bees, but is a bad starting place for maintaining a population of Varroa d. that is NOT resistant to chemicals......." Very interesting mail you composed. And most makes sense! BUT, as you suggest, we need to be heading towards IPM techniques to control the levels of V.d. and cut out the dependence on chemical applications. So, why would one wish to maintain populations of V.d.that were or were not resistant to pesticides such as coumaphos etc.? Surely we want bees that are resistant to V.d! Work up those in areas that have had extended exposure to the mites, and yes support and select from colonies that indicate better resistance. The supporting colonies I agree would be better maintained via an IPM program rather than treating with classic pesticide. All the better if the mites are not resistant! BUT it is the bees themselves that are to be selected and progressed with, hence the primary concern. I suppose, if I remember correctly, this is a variation on the isolated experiments taking place under the guidance of Otis Gard in Ontario with A.m.m. from France! Have a good weekend Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 21:04:26 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Keeping highly infested colonies with varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron, Aleksander & all I clipped this from Aaron's post... > living in ignorant bliss(?) of the fact that your own ledgers > are telling you that you are embracing a doomed pursuit of trying to make a > living off bees without cheap easy chemical controls! Economy has no > feelings! It's like Nature! Nature doesn't lament when natural disasters > claim hundreds or thousands! Economics don't lament when the bottom line > claims causalities either! It just is. Beekeepers, whether hobbiest or large scale commercial, have to re-evaluate their methods and the economics of those methods. Varroa will not disappear or mollify sufficiently for colony survival without fairly intensive beekeeper intervention. It is time to forget about widespread chemical use while there is still some usefulness in the materials concerned. Yes, it will mean more labour intensive methods... and that will hit the large scale commercial organisations hard, but the more these methods are explored the better we will become at using them. This is the work that we all should have started when varroa first hit, so that we could properly make use of the window that chemicals bestow. Had we all done that, then we would be better placed today as our chemicals run out of magic bullet properties. Beekeeping has never been a business of high profits, but making ANY profit in future may mean a complete rethink on colony numbers, honey and wax prices and pollination fees. It is time to start practising some of the fringe treatment schemes, that are often laughed at, after all we may find a "GEM" in one of them, it certainly will not hurt to have a battery of methods that have been widely trialled in different areas with different strains. The opinion stated is mine, but it is not held in a "humble" fashion. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:03:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Keeping highly infested colonies with varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Regarding Aleksander's proposed experiment to keep highly infested colonies > with varroa, Peter wrote: > > Logic states that your suggested experiment would be better > > conducted in the locations where V.d. has been present over a relatively > extended > > period and where acaricide resistance is highly pronounced. > > Hello Aaron and All, I remember when Varroa first hit the US. I'm on the west coast so it took a few years for me to feel the impact . To tell you the truth , I thought it was just another problem we beekeepers had to deal with using our heads with research. Good information was slow at coming and chemicals were pushed out in front for treatment of V.d. My position from the start was, chemicals will not work in the long run. It was too easy to use chemicals , so why go after other fix's. Now we have a lot more information on the mite itself. There has been a lot of good work done by researchers and the USDA has handed some tools to really work with this time. The Russian Bee has a chance and good selection and breeding we may be back on our feet with beekeeping. I like the idea of turning Varroa against varroa to keep resistant populations down. There is nature that we can always use if we try to understand how it works. One can get very deep in the cause and affect side of nature. We humans have big heads and egos that get in the way of seeing the natural side of how everything interacts.We put little parts in box's and explain them to each other.We feel good and go on finding more ideas and truths to pass around in our little circle. ( Humans ) The natural world is so complex that we can only touch the top of the iceberg. Education is a tool to get more of the iceberg. But we will never get much more than the top part of that giant piece of floating ice .The good news is, it is melting some ,so we have a higher percentage of knowledge. The best thing that we can do is look to nature itself, watch how it works. Good beekeepers have a real sense of nature. We observe our bees , but pay attention to all the environmental changes that are going on around us. (Weather, flowers, water ) Nature will provide the cure for the varroa problem. We just want to control Varroa our way. If the amber is true and Apis M. has been around for 30 million years , don't think for a second that she has not been up against something as bad ,if not worse over its life on earth. > > > This issue of what has the Varroa gene pool become is a big part of the > overall Varroa problem and a BIG reason that it is so important that > chemical treatments be abandoned. As long as the majority of the beekeeping > industry continues using chemical treatments, Varroa will continue to become > more resistant to them. IT'S HOW THE MODEL WORKS! > You hit it right on the head. If we did not have money on the mind, to save our bees ,we would not have used chemicals .We would have some bees that would have survived and would be building back at this time. I have used a few things to try to keep the mites down myself. I lost 100 out of 180 about 5 years ago. I know what it feels like to have Varroa. > > > > Truth is, IPM is not as easy as strip in/strip out, but it will work. Folks > will argue that IPM is simply too labor intensive for commercial enterprise, > and I will not argue against them. The bottom line in that is there is no > acceptable approved Varroa destructor treatment on today's market that will > support a viable commercial operation. NONE! The chemicals aren't doing it > folks! The short-lived band aid chemical solutions are failing miserably. > Aaron has hit this truth very well. The proof is all around us. Beekeepers > are not getting rich, we are seeing more and more going out of business. > IPM includes: > mechanical controls (drone trapping, sugar dusting, sticky boards, etc) > breeding controls (SMR bees, Russian bees), monitoring Varroa levels > Formic (and other) acids > I' not a convinced/converted 49er, but I won't count it out either. > FGMO? > and yes, IPM includes chemicals controls, but only after monitoring > shows that the other methods aren't keeping varroa below damaging levels. > The bottom line is IPM. I use Russian - Blue line ( I will ad different > Russian stock this spring) I have ALL of my hives on screens. I pay a lot more > attention to my bees than in the past. General health is important. I had two hives last june with Varroa. I came back 2 weeks later and could not find any varroa. Plus they are doing very well this winter , without chemicals. So I know we have something working on our side. I just need all of my hives like that and I will be keeping bees like the good old days. (before V.d) Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya ,Wa. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:35:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: ABF 2002 in Savannah GA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone else going to ABF in Savannah next week? There are lots of pubs in Savannah, not as many as Miami or Bonn, but more than we could hit in one night. Wanna start at the east end of the river, and work west? Wed? Thur? Fri? I will be taking my Volvo urban assault vehicle, which has a stereo system that violates the nuclear test-ban treaty, room for 5, and a sunroof through which we may howl at the moon. jim fischer (searching for a good single-malt since the 70s) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 11:10:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Keeping highly infested colonies with varroa In-Reply-To: <200201120503.g0C534h09083@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I didn't mention why is interesting how you manage to control highly infested colonies with varroa. At that beekeeping symposium in Croatia which I mentioned in previous post, we were informed that Croatians and Germans together are planning to conduct an experimental mating station at one of many Croatian islands. Two years ago they didn't succeeded in keeping alive 150+ colonies evenly infested with varroa at the start point, (queens were from many European countries) without any intervention, at that same isolated island. Now they are planning to start again, but now they will abandon the princip "let it be" and are planning to intervene at some point when infestation will be critical. When I asked them how they will do that, R. Buchler said that they will choose some treatment. Obviously at that time they didn't find that can be very important how controlling will be. Why they plan to make mating station? Because colonies on the island will be treated as drone builders. Their hypothesis is that only best most resistant colonies will be able to produce healthy drones in highly infested colonies. They hope that drones will somehow pass the resistance on the next generation. Obviously from some reasons they, like me, think that keeping highly infested colonies with varroa is good way to go. ===== Aleksandar Mihajlovski, editor of Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" Ul. Helsinki 41 a, 1000 Skopje, Macedonia Tel./Fax(modem): ++ 389 2 363-424 E-mail: melitagora@yahoo.com Join "Apimak", Macedonian discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apimak __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 15:40:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Varroa and temperature On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:16:06 -0400, Lloyd Spear wrote: >You can judge for yourself, but I fail to share Zachary's enthusiasm and think that freezing drone brood is more practical and just as effective. > > >Lloyd >Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. >Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps Thanks, Lloyd for your cadidate opinion. Now I have improved the design so that perhaps 15 seconds is enough. No need to open bee hives. connect the two terminals outside the hive and bingo, you are done. I think this is better than freezing, no? The main idea is to get commercial beekeepers to use the device. for someone with 10 hives, freezing would work just well. But if you have 5000 hives, you need a HUGE freezer! Right now we are trying to get funds to 1). make a die mold for a prototype and 2) conduct field experiment to show that the zapping would reduce mite population enough so that no chemicals are needed. cheers, Zachary Huang http://www.mitezapper.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:44:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: M Westall Subject: Re: Timing of Varroa treatments - every other year MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd! And many others I've missed writing from Bee-L, Lloyd talks of using varroa mite treatments only during the fall vs. spring&fall. Taking this one further, I've experienced -reasonable- success with varroa treatments every other year. Like George (Imirie) I have great confidence in LATE fall treatments. You're treating an area - of brood and bees. That mass is smallest and tightest during cluster months. With the help of an assistant and good markings on your hives (where the strips are), those strips can be removed in 5 seconds during the cold days of December or early January (treatment of Nov-1 thru 15). The might kill is so effective I've reduced treatments to every other year. Varroa kills have never exceeded 25% (last year with exceptionally long coldspell) and usually run 10% (knock on wood). This isn't a management techique I would 'necessarily' reccomend for others - but it saves time and money here given a little flexibily and effort during December/early January. The treatment period is effective enough(!) to easily sustain hive numbers within the apiary. Less treatment = less cost, less chemicals, less chemical resistance - though not necessarily less work as you have to keep a careful eye during the season for hives on the verge of varroasis. Matthew Westall -- // Earthling Bees >8(())))- "Take me to your feeder" \\ Castle Rock, CO, USA Lloyd Spear wrote: > Jim said "In my view, spring treatments for varroa are useless. Think > about it - assume you have a single-digit mite fall using > whatever test method you wish. Since you have no chance > at all of killing all the mites in spring, you are exchanging one -- // Earthling Bees >8(())))- "Take me to your feeder" \\ Castle Rock, CO, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:09:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Shakey Jake Subject: Lady Bugs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While cleaning up our honey supers, I noticed that that new Chinese Lady Bud had taken up residence in the supers. has any one else experienced this? Should we be concerned? Jake Good-Rich Apiaries Metamora, Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:23:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Martin Subject: Utah Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colleagues, I will be traveling home to Utah (Salt Lake City Area-Alta Ski Resort) Florida Saturday, January 19. I will depart Utah and travel back to Florida on Saturday, January 26. I would welcome the chance to meet with beekeeper colleagues while in Utah. After all Utah is the "Bee Hive State." Additionally, I will return to Utah through the period March 8 - March 15. Richard Martin ramartin1@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:04:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Lady Bugs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find lady bugs in my natural beekeeping sites where I do not treat with chemicals. The owners of the land and I are delighted. They fade to an orange/red instead of the bright red. They only stay for the warmth and as soon as the weather is back to normal they are gone. Sure would be nice if someone could research what they are eating? Stomach contains should be the answer. The fading of the color could be the honey. Michael Housel Orlandobee ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:37:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Keeping highly infested colonies with varroa In-Reply-To: <200201130500.g0D50Mh15273@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings! I have done this, so I can tell you how. One has to add bees and/or brood to the colonies at regular intervals. In this way, colonies with high mite populations can be maintained for years. It is similar to maintaining queenless cell-builders. It may be expensive but it will work. However, does anyone know how long it would take for "evolution" to generate mite-resistant bees in this manner? I don't think we can even speculate how long that would take! Hence, the usual route is to carry on selective breeding, rather than to sit back and wait for nature to come up with a solution to a problem which is essentially man-created. After all, Apis mellifera probably would never have gotten thoroughly infested by varroa were it not for 1) the importation of Apis m. into Apis cerana territory, 2) the keeping of so many colonies so close together, 3) migratory beekeeping and shipping of bees overseas. I suggest beekeepers must give their full support to efforts world-wide to develop mite-resistant bees. Buy these queens and use them! Do not raise queens from "local" bees or simply let the bees requeen themselves. (My $.02) pb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:03:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: IPM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I have been reading the posts regarding not using chemicals against varroa. I would like to put a question regarding the problem with reinfestation. Here in Ireland we have had varroa since 1998. As you would expect it is still somewhat patchy, and the current belief is that we must use chemicals, since hives being treated by IPM would be overwhelmed by reinfestation from feral colonies which still survive, and from colonies held by non compliant beekeepers. Thus the perceived wisdom here is that we cannot risk using IPM until varroa 'stability' is achieved by varroa becoming reasonably evenly distributed. Does experience gained in the USA and elsewhere confirm or deny what I have said? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland