From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:41:44 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F9249081 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sQ010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0208C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 141595 Lines: 3283 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 01:20:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: dark honey Bill writes: >[honeydew] does taste good. Much better than buckwheat honey according to my taste buds. >But that same mineral content can be bad for bees, especially oeverwintering bees. As I well know! Last summer one of my hives refilled their top super with honeydew right after I had extracted. Knowing the conventional wisdom on trying to overwinter with honeydew, I decided to see for myself if it was as bad as claimed. It was. The bees survived up until about the first of January and the inside of the hive was a mess. It had the smell of a barn. This spring the unconsumed honeydew was fed to a new package of hived bees. They seemed to build up ok and went on to make as much honey as those started on sugar syrup. But, of course, they had the ability to do cleansing flights which those overwintering bees generally could not. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:50:39 -0500 Reply-To: Bob Fanning Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Fanning Subject: Re: Questions: Wax Melter and Separator, Cappings Spinner,dark wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Layne wrote: >The leftover slum gum, pollen and impurities/debris I >throw into my compost bucket where the soldier fly larvae >make quick work of it. Very interesting post. One suggestion, the coffee filters with slumgum and some wax make excelent fire starters for fireplaces and wood stoves. I am no authourity on what teh residue in teh smoke will do to your cheminy with respect to creosode. In that respect, use at your own risk. Bob Fanning Huntsville, AL 35802 USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:26:20 -0400 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: effects of mosquito spraying? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lasr year here in North Florida they sprayed one day at 6:30PM and managed to kill all of my field force. So the spray will kill your bees if done in the daylight hours. It also killed all the butterflies, bumble bees and everything other insect type that was outside. A commercial beekeeper near my location was also hit hard.. I called the EPA inspector and bee inspector. They took samples of dead and dying bees for examination. Several months later I got a letter for the lab that did the work, stating they could not find any spray residue etc...so I guess all the insects committed suicide when they say the plane come over..Anyway, I had to dump thousands bees from the hive bottoms boards. The hives did recover. Only benefit I noticed was no fall swarms.. and yes the pesky mosquito was back the next evening...No notice was given to beekeepers or the inspectors. This spraying was done in the daylight hours, they said, because they were behind in their schedule. If it had sprayed according to the LABEL, it has a 12 residule and should dissipate by morning and would have killed the mosquito and not everything but. Will Lewis. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:36:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey for allergies. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garry Libby wrote: > > Bill Truesdale wrote: > "......I note that it has done nothing when it comes to ragweed and me." > > Bill, wouldn't the honey have to have ragweed pollen in it to help set up > the bodies antibodies to prevent allergic reaction? Do bees visit ragweed? I > think the people that aren't helped are the ones allergic to pollen that > honeybees don't collect, wouldn't that be a reasonable explanation? Interesting question.. are there are pollens that bees do not collect? My guess is there are none, since they collect any pollen like substances and take it back to their hives. I have seen them collect corn dust from my bird feeder. They will be all over my cedar trees in spring. It is known that they will collect pesticides that are pollen like, which can be devastating to a colony. So my guess is that the pollen in honey and the hive can give a good indication as to what is available in the area. Bees are not too particular if they need pollen. Bill Truesdell BAth, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:59:07 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Beekeeper wanted: NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Beekeepers wanted... One of New Zealand's most progressive beekeeping operations requires two experienced beekeepers. Apiflora NZ Ltd is based in Tauranga and is involved in pollination, honey productio, as well as raising queens and exporting package bees. Applicants should have a broad range of beekeeping skills, and a clean HT licence is preferable. Above average wages with twice yearly bonuses. Contact Steve Weenink Lower Kaimai Road R D 1 Tauranga New Zealand Phone 0064 7 543 0984 Fax 0064 7 543 0989 Email apiflora.nz.ltd@xtra.co.nz http://www.packagebees.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:14:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jack Grimshaw Subject: Demonstration hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question on demonstration hives that I'm looking for a little help on.In 10 days I will be hosting a family reunion and having a number of hives on my property,I'm anticipating many questions.I would like to set up a demonstration hive of gentle bees for those who are interested.My problem is that the main nectar flow is over,the fall flow has'nt quite started,the weather is hot and dry and my bees are slightly defensive.I don't want to set up a feeding station with 1:1 syrup as I still have honey supers on.My thoughts were to split one of my gentler hives,taking the queen,some brood,honey and pollen,install a feeder with 1:1 syrup,and move this about 50 ft.away from the other hives.I would leave at the original location the rest of the brood and the honey supers.My reasoning is that by shrinking the brood nest, the queen would be easier to find and the more defensive field bees would return to the old location.I would combine the two later,maybe with help from the audience if they were interested.Will this work and/or what else should I be considering. Thanks,Jack ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:10:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: effects of mosquito spraying? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greg, my land-grant ag university, and probably yours, publishes a pest control handbook with a section on bee poisoning. Studying it will reveal a number of pesticides which, when sprayed during late and early hours, and evenings, lose their honeybee toxicity before the bees fly. Malathion serves this regimen very well. Your description seems to follow this tactic. Dan --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:09:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mick, I keep a queen excluder under my hive during swarm season and if/when they swarm they self-retrieve when they find they don't have a queen with them. If someone was watching, they would look just like you described. Dan --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:16:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jack Grimshaw Subject: EAS 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just returned from EAS 2002 at Cornell and am fully charged for another year of beekeeping.I would like to thank all involved for a job well done.A special thanks to Mike Griggs(2002 President),Aaron Morris(short course),Nick Calderone(main conference), Ray Lackey(workshops),and Lloyd Spear(vendors).Also,EAS Chairman Kim Flottum's dedication to Beekeeping and choice of hats is greatly appreciated. Jack Grimshaw ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:54:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lynn, Susan Lang" Subject: Ragweed pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a commercial grower of sweet corn who tries to keep the weeds under = control using mechanical methods, it does bring a smile to my face when = I watch the bees collecting pollen from the occasional Ragweed that has = survived the jaws of the cultivator. Lynn Lang ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:46:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Honey Bee Genome Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The "Proposal for the Sequencing of a New Target Genome: White Paper for a Honey Bee Genome Project" contains a number of ringing endorsements, including these two: 1. "Obtaining the genomic sequence information of the honey bee would provide important information and myriad positive implications for apiculture, entomology, human health, human biology, ecology and agriculture" -- Troy H. Fore, Jr. 2. "Because both the brain and social organization are simpler and more accessible in honeybees and other social insects, principles are likely to be discovered early on that have application to the understanding of human social behavior." -- Edward O.Wilson ------------------------- A counter argument follows: How Science is Perverted to Build Fascism, by Steve Rosenthal [excerpts] E.O. Wilson is a Harvard professor emeritus of entomology, the study of insects. In the 1970s he updated the old social Darwinist ideology that human societies are shaped by the biological nature of humans. Just as the nature of ants creates colonies of queens, drones, workers, and slaves, the nature of humans creates racism, sexism, patriotism, wars, religion, and class exploitation. Wilson used this "revelation" to argue that efforts to fight against racism, sexism, and imperialism go against human nature and are thus exceedingly difficult, and to claim that communism is unscientific and cannot work. Wilson proudly says of himself, "At my core, I am a social conservative, a loyalist. I cherish traditional institutions, the more venerable and ritual-laden the better." There is no genetic basis for tribalism, racism, sexism, or other features of present societies. These ideologies and behaviors in the world today reflect the class interests of capitalist rulers, and millions of workers throughout the world have fought against them. In universities today capitalist control over science has been tightened up. Biotech, pharmaceutical, and military interests control public and private research funding, and pressures to obtain grants preoccupy most scientists. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 01:53:23 -0400 Reply-To: jbc@buffalo.edu Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J.Beth Ciesielski" Subject: Proverbs about Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear friends of bees, Does anyone know of a book or information on bee proverbs? For example, "When the bees look out, you look in." (There is trouble inside the beehive when bees sit and look outside.) I am not asking for proverbs or poetry mentioning bees or honey. (unless you have a favorite and less known one.) I am asking for any bee lore/ quotes or sayings about bees that help beekeepers to remember things about working with bees. Anything about the weather that might affect them..when or what to do they swarm, how to understand them, how to live with them, how they teach us, etc. Thank you very much, Beth ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:20:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Ragweed pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lynn, Lynn wrote: it does bring a smile to my face when I watch the bees collecting pollen from the occasional Ragweed that has survived the jaws of the cultivator. I see the bees collecting plenty of ragweed pollen in my area also Lynn. Sadly many beekeepers have not a clue which plants produce the honey or pollen in their hives. The uninformed beekeeper in Missouri says if its light its clover and if its dark its wildflower. Many other plants can produce a surplus in Missouri. For honey to help with allergies you have to remember to take a teaspoon of raw honey *every* day. NOT WHENEVER YOU THINK ABOUT IT!. Off the subject. Many people say there is simply no research which proves that bee sting therapy helps people. Like *honey and allergies* the proof is in the form of statements by those people which have been helped . Sincerely, Bob Harrison "What we do not know is so vast that it makes what we do know seem absurd" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 01:03:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: unseen AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen Dick and I have spent a few nights talking intensely on the issue of how AFB might cycle through its life in a colony even though no visible signs of disease can be seen in the brood nest. The conversation about AFB cycling and no disease symptoms usually comes up when we are talking about antibiotic resistance, because Allen questions how resistance could possibly have evolved as a consequence of selection from continued antibiotic use, when during antibiotic use you never see the disease, and presumably, no generations of AFB pass. I have seen things over the last few months that make me think it is not so crazy that AFB does cycle below levels where beekeepers can spot it. I am helping out on a big experiment looking into different ways to detect AFB spores from colonies, and it is from this I am seeing things about AFB I did not know about. As many of you know, spores are not only found on ropey larvae or scale, but they are also in honey, on wooden ware and on adult bees. For years people have noticed that even if you find spores in colonies, you might not actually see any diseased larvae. Where do these spores come from? They could be immigrants, having floated in on the occational drifting bee returning from an unclean drum of honey or having hitched a ride on a frame that was previously housed in an infected colony. Another theory is that larvae are continually being infected with the disease and workers are ejecting them before we can see them, but not soon enough to prevent a cloud of spores in the colonies. Camilla Brodsgaard, in Denmark, and her collegues state this theory the following way in the discussion section of one of their papers: "There may be several reasons explaining the lack of visible signs of AFB when P. l. larvae spores are present in the honey of honey bee colonies. The present study suggests that, the ability of the nurse/cleaning bees to remove infected brood can be an important factor". In the trial I am involved right now we have set up 5 different yards and have inoculated 10 x 10 cm patches of 1st instar larvae with spores of increasing concentration at each yard (yard 1 has no spores and yard 5 has 2 billion spores applied to each patch). Each week we have carefully examined the brood nest and have taken honey samples, from both the surplus honey and the brood nest, from adult brood nest bees or from swabs of the spaces between frames in the brood nest. I have noticed the following remarkable things: 1) Larvae that have recently died from AFB are sometimes still white, hold their shape and do not rope but are packed with spores (I only new this because I grew some larvae out that were slightly funny looking... I would not have picked them out of the line-up otherwise) 2) Many larvae that are inoculated with spores are ejected before they show signs of symptoms 3) Scales can form within a week of first observing ropey larvae and can be completely removed within another week, 4) Following a flush of infected larvae from the inoculation there is often a one week period where no symptoms can be seen, followed by a second week were symptoms are ambiguous, followed by a 3rd week (which hasn't actually happened yet, but I am expecting it) with diagnostic symptoms. Although we are waiting for a slow time to grow out the samples, I expect there will be many times we go to the colonies and do not see clear AFB symptoms but there are many spores floating around. Allen, I hope I have not misrepresented you. If I have, know that it is because I did not understand you properly, likely because you had given me to much mead that particular night. I don't want to get into the evolution of antibiotic resistance, beacuse you long ago showed me how complicated those questions are, but I thought you all might appreciate the observations. Regards, Adony ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:33:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Honey Bee Genome Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The "Proposal for the Sequencing of a New Target Genome: White Paper for a Honey Bee Genome Project" contains the following statements: >The bee community has met three times to mobilize for a HBGP (#1 >organized by Robinson in Bellagio, Italy; #2 organized by Menzel in >Berlin; #3 held as part of a USDA Comparative Insect Genomics >workshop). At all three meetings a HBGP was recognized as a high >priority; at #3 the honey bee emerged as one of the top two insect >prospects for genome sequencing >honey bees live in societies that rival our own in >complexity,internal cohesion,and success in dealing with the myriad >challenges posed by social life, including those related to >communication, aging, social dysfunction and infectious disease. I do not wish to advance a particular point of view, but a large number of people have already weighed in heavily in favor of full speed ahead. What is particularly interesting is the rationale behind this endeavor. The effort to obtain funding and priority has compelled the proponents to make some bold claims for the potential benefits. One is an understanding of "social genes". But do these even exist? Maybe not. Read on: Excerpts from The Evolutionary Dynamics of Social Organization in Insect Societies By Joachim Erber & Rob Page Insect societies have intrigued natural historians and biologists since Aristotle. Scholars have puzzled over the self-sacrificing altruism expressed by sterile colony members-the workers-as well as the complex division of labor and the capability of mass-action responses to the environment. For example, a colony of 20 to 30 thousand honey bees, at one moment in time, may have several thousand individuals engaged in foraging behavior; and thousands of others engaged in nest construction, feeding young larvae, or processing honey; while others guard the entrance or thermoregulate the nest. However, when an intruder challenges the entrance of the nest, hundreds or even thousands of worker honeybees may respond immediately by stinging the intruder and, in doing so, sacrifice their lives. Social insects presented Darwin with major difficulties for his theory of evolution by natural selection. How can you explain the evolution of self-sacrificing worker castes when evolution is a result of the survival and reproduction of individuals? Even more perplexing is the question of how the sterile workers evolved their own traits, different from their reproductive mothers (the queens) when they don't reproduce. The social behavior of insects is a result of complex interactions at different levels of biological organization. Genes give rise to proteins and peptides that build the nervous and muscular systems, regulate their own synthesis, interact with each other, and affect the behavior of individuals. Social behavior of an insect colony emerges from the complex interactions of individuals. Division of labor self-organizes within groups of cohabiting individuals. This has been demonstrated in two empirical studies. Sakagami and Maeta (1987) forced females of the solitary carpenter bee, Ceratina flavipes, to share the same nests. Normally, these bees excavate their own nests by burrowing into the centers of pithy plant stems. ... When pairs of females were forced to share the same nest, a division of labor occurred in every case. One bee became the principal egg layer and guard, while the other did most of the foraging. Hence a task and reproductive division of labor emerged between these normally solitary individuals. This occurred in the absence of an evolutionary history of nest sharing. Jennifer Fewell demonstrated a similar phenomenon with the desert harvester ant, Pogonomyrmex barbatus. Like most species of ants, young queens excavate a nest in the ground. ... In every case, one female did significantly more of the nest excavating. Queens were tested for the amount of time they spent digging before they were paired. In every case, the queen in the pair that did more digging on her own, also did more digging when paired. These simple relationships, stimulus-response and the correlation of behavior and the stimulus intensity, represent mechanisms that transform individual behavior into a social organization. The result, division of labor, is an inescapable property of group living because of the behavioral properties of solitary individuals. The evolutionary transition from solitary life history to social life does not require any new genes or new features of the neural system, or new forms of behavior. Insects that live solitary lives already have all of the necessary behavioral components for organized social living. There is no "social genome" directing the organization of colonies. The genes responsible for social organization reside in individuals just as they did in their solitary ancestors. In many social insect species the individuals that demonstrate a division of labor are sterile, the workers. The genes affected by selection must change properties of the neural system that affect the interactions of neurons and the behavior of workers. Changes in division of labor emerge from changes in the interactions of the behavior of the colony members and their environment. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:27:02 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kauko Kangas Subject: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last night, when we were preparing bees for winter, my wife started to wonder, what was the sound she did hear every now and then. She described it as wild and like a kittens scream for her mother. She did hear it during a long time, more than half an hour. I did hear it a couple of times, and it was very small sound not like beeb but like screetch or like a beeb with varying tones. The length of the sound was about 1 - 1,5 seconds and the interwalls between piping varied from tens of seconds to minutes. She has a green beesuit, and there was about 15 bees under her collar just near her ear and one (?) of them did make the sound. At that time the night was just darkening and we could not identify individual bees. Maybe it was the sound of a queen, a flying one, because otherwise it could not have been on the beesuit so high up. The evening was warm, about 24 centigrades, no wind, no clouds. Swarming time is here over now. We inspected two hives at this time, and both of them had plenty of room. At least the second hive had a queen cell, but this piping bee came probably from the first hive. Kauko Kangas, beehaver for five years Nummi-Pusula (near Helsinki) southern Finland, Europe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 02:12:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: unseen AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen Dick and I have spent a few nights talking intensely on the issue of how AFB might cycle through its life in a colony even though no visible signs of disease can be seen in the brood nest. That's the truth. I think this is really a crucial question. > The conversation about AFB cycling and no disease symptoms usually comes up when we are talking about antibiotic resistance, because Allen questions how resistance could possibly have evolved as a consequence of selection from continued antibiotic use, when during antibiotic use you never see the disease, and presumably, no generations of AFB pass. I realise that this is a rather questionable assumption, but a useful one. In the real world, no medication regimen is ever 100% on-dose and on-time. With hygienic behavior, there are degrees of performance and the time lag between infection and detection can vary considerably. Other controls that seem simple and obvious, like destruction of infected colonies and burning the hives, can also have some unexpected complications and unanticiped effects on the evolution of AFB as well. > I have seen things over the last few months that make me think it is not so crazy that AFB does cycle below levels where beekeepers can spot it. I don't think that this has ever been in doubt. To me one important question is under what circumstances can this occur and what the mechanisms are -- and the degree of spore formation and spread, compared to the natural deterioration and elimination of spores in a colony. > I am helping out on a big experiment looking into different ways to detect AFB spores from colonies, and it is from this I am seeing things about AFB I did not know about. It is good to know that the assumptions are being tested. An understanding of the mechanisms of the various varieties of AFB is going to be very important in determining the best approaches to AFB management in the future. This applies whether drugs, AFB resistant bees, depopulation, burning, radiation, comb renewal or chemical disinfection are used, alone or in combination. Each of these methods applies differents pressures to the survival of AFB and knowing how AFB lives and functions at sub-visible levels will help us predict the potential failures and weaknesses of each approach and tell us how to combine these very useful and potent controls for optimal and long-lasting results. > As many of you know, spores are not only found on ropey larvae or scale, but they are also in honey, on wooden ware and on adult bees. For years people have noticed that even if you find spores in colonies, you might not actually see any diseased larvae. Where do these spores come from? And how quickly do they dissipate? What is the half-life of an average AFB spore in a honey bee colony under varying conditions? > ... Another theory is that larvae are continually being infected with the disease and workers are ejecting them before we can see them, but not soon enough to prevent a cloud of spores in the colonies I have noticed the following remarkable things: > > 1) Larvae that have recently died from AFB are sometimes still white, hold their shape and do not rope but are packed with spores (I only new this because I grew some larvae out that were slightly funny looking... I would not have picked them out of the line-up otherwise) Were they "packed with spores" or with a vegetative stage? This is one of the crucial questions that has had me wondering. If the larvae are thrown out while the infection was still vegetative, would not the effect be different, particularly in a medicated environment? At what point do the spores form? Is dessication necessary, or what are the triggers? It is the sporulation that is the persistant and most potent factor in AFB transmission as far as I know. > 2) Many larvae that are inoculated with spores are ejected before they show signs of symptoms. While containing new spores, or vegetative growth? > 3) Scales can form within a week of first observing ropey larvae I am presuming you mean hard scales? That seems to me to require drier conditions than I would expect in a normal brood area. > 4) Following a flush of infected larvae from the inoculation there is often a one week period where no symptoms can be seen, followed by a second week were symptoms are ambiguous, followed by a 3rd week (which hasn't actually happened yet, but I am expecting it) with diagnostic symptoms. I am assuming that this is in the absence of any medication? > Although we are waiting for a slow time to grow out the samples, I expect there will be many times we go to the colonies and do not see clear AFB symptoms but there are many spores floating around. I think we are all agreed here. The real questions are under what conditions the spore load increases and under what conditons the spore load diminishes, and what the normal rate of attrition is for existing spores if there are no new ones being added to the colony. Theoretically, at least, the control measures listed above, and perhaps others, help a colony resist formation of new spores while the old spores are germinating and either failing to reproduce and/or physically being removed from the colony over time. > Allen, I hope I have not misrepresented you. Nope, I think that is pretty close. Of course there are too many subtleties to cover all the questions and their supplementary issues in a few paragraphs, but I think you covered one aspect of the question well here. I am also sure we all have, and will continue to have, slightly different understandings of the various factors and priorities involved, and IMO that is a good thing. Through dialogue, questioning and observation we expand our factual base, and reduce the assumptions we make. I'm happy to hear that some of the assumptions are being tested. IMO, AFB and its control is one of those topics where there is much more speculation and assumption than actual knowledge. Moreover, there may be more variables than we have considered, and even some unique events that are impossible to study. > If I have, know that it is because I did not understand you properly, likely because you had given me to much mead that particular night. I don't want to get into the evolution of antibiotic resistance, beacuse you long ago showed me how complicated those questions are, but I thought you all might appreciate the observations. I sure do. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:40:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Proverbs about Bees Comments: To: jbc@buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Beth, Beth wrote: > "When the bees look out, you look in." (There is trouble inside the > beehive when bees sit and look outside.) Many old beekeepers believe when you open a hive and the bees stop movement and look up at you they are about to swarm. I have never checked the theory out myself. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. I do know what is on the bees minds when I open the hive and all movement stops and stingers are pointed up. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:03:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kauko, Unless there is new information only queens make the piping sound . Look through your hives again. Many times the bees swarm as soon as the queen cells are capped and you said you found a capped queen cell in one of your hives. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:37:57 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For some years our beekeeping co-op imported extra queens, a hundred or so at a time, in individual cages. This "piping" sound came from them. Quite a chorus when several did it at the same time! Eunice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:07:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Unless there is new information only queens make the piping sound Try http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0111D&L=bee-l&P=R548 allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:57:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Wayne F. Young" Subject: Re: Swarm In-Reply-To: <20020816020953.19758.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:09 PM 8/15/02 -0700, you wrote: > Mick, I keep a queen excluder under my hive during swarm season and > if/when they swarm they self-retrieve when they find they don't have a > queen with them. If someone was watching, they would look just like you > described. Dan > > > >--------------------------------- >Do You Yahoo!? >HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs Hi Dan, Since you must have vent holes in your bodies,and supers,do you place a wire screen or something similar over the vent holes to keep the Queen from escaping through them? Wayne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:24:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Questions: Wax Melter and Separator, Cappings Spinner,dark wax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Layne Westover writes: "...styrofoam "ice chests" that I have cut down .... They are difficult to cut down and keep a smooth edge." If you have a foundation wire imbedder, I think that might make a very good tool with which to cut your styrofoam. IE: A very hot wire will cut styrofoam like a hot knife through butter. Mike in southern Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:39:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen posted concerning workers piping: Try > > http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0111D&L=bee-l&P=R548 Interesting observation by Trevor . I on the other hand have never heard a worker make a piping sound. However when Trevor says "is the piping sound we call queen calling actually the workers" that the story has problems. Trevor sites his experience as being around many queens with attendants. Although I have got the same experience I also have experience with hundreds of queens without attendants (battery box queens less workers) piping away. I have also been involved with a large incubator full of queens (without attendants) piping. I have been around pounds and pounds of queenless bees with never the first piping sound. I do not dispute that Trevor did not hear a worker piping (I never have) but do dispute the hypothesis he presented in his post that it might be the attendants doing the piping and not the queen. Comments Trevor? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:22:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Honey for allergies. In-Reply-To: <20020813005633.24525.qmail@web20607.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eugene Makovec writes: > I have heard a teaspoon per day most commonly. I haven't been on the BEE-L list for several years, just got back on, but remember some time back some discussion about the honey drained from cappings being better for treating allergies because of the high pollen content. Evidently the honey just under the cappings have a considerably higher pollen content than honey stored deeper into the cell cavity. Coments? Mike in southern Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:47:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hoguet Subject: Re: Proverbs about Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This anonymous rhyme comes from The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations 2nd Edition (London: OUP 1953): A swarm of bees in May Is worth a load of hay; A swarm of bees in June Is worth a silver spoon; A swarm of bees in July Is not worth a fly. -- Old Rhyme I hope it helps! :) Mark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:43:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 14 Aug 2002 to 15 Aug 2002 (#2002-220) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/08/02 05:04:45 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Knowing the conventional wisdom on trying to overwinter with honeydew, I decided to see for myself if it was as bad as claimed. It was. >> And yet in the forested areas of continental Europe honeydew has been a mainstay of bees for thousands of years for over wintering. Maybe you need the right sort of bees for a honeydew area. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:10:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Demonstration hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack, There are so MANY ways to do this, but your SUCCESS will be guaranteed by having only NURSE bees in the colony with the queen! Put two empty bodies together and transfer 18 frames into them from one of your colonies. Transfer the QUEEN, 2-3 frames of OPEN brood (eggs and larvae), 2-3 frames of CAPPED brood (emerging brood is always interesting), 3-4 frames of HONEY in various states of frame completion, and empty frames. Do NOT add any feeder! NO FEEDER! Set this new colony any distance you desire away from the parent colony 2-3 days in advance of your party. All the forager age bees will leave and return to the parent hive, leaving behind the gentle, young, nurse bees. When your party is over, RECOMBINE this new colony and old parent colony using he newspaper method. I repeat - You do NOT want any forager age bees in a demonstration hive, as those are the ones that will be defensive. Use only nurse bees! I like your comments about EAS. I missed it this year, my 2nd miss in over 30 years. I am putting on colony demonstrations at my county FAIR 4 times/day for 9 days of opening colonies, finding and displaying the queen while I wear ONLY shoes, shorts, tee-shirt, and NO VEIL. This is my 16th year doing it, and almost NO stings; and I attract CROWDS of spectators I USE NURSE BEES! I hope I have helped George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 70th year of Beekeeping in Maryland and Virginia Past President of Maryland State Beekeepers Author of George's Monthly PINK PAGES Author of American Beekeeping Federation HOBBYIST HELP column in semimonthly newsletter. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey for allergies. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike, Evidently the honey just under the cappings have a considerably > higher pollen content than honey stored deeper into the cell cavity. > Coments? I had never heard the above but does not make it not so. >From my experience bees store pollen and honey in seperate cells for the most part. In Missouri you see cells filled with pollen stored in abundence in a super placed over the brood chamber in a fall flow. When uncapped you see many , many cells of pollen. When uncapped and extracted the fall pollen is spread through the honey and at times makes the honey cloudy. The bees will only store above the brood area after the brood area is full of honey and pollen for winter. A true wildflower honey without clover mixed in is not a easy product to produce in Missouri. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:36:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Honey Bee Genome Project In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , Peter Borst writes >There is no genetic basis for tribalism, racism, sexism, or other >features of present societies. Anyone working in the field of human potential in its myriad forms, empowerment and networking and so on recognises this. Wilhelm Reich said it all. Those in power are mostly very repressed and heavily defended. Which is why they heavily defend their own status and the status quo. Once we transform or transcend our own repressions we find loving relationships. > These ideologies and behaviors in the >world today reflect the class interests of capitalist rulers, and >millions of workers throughout the world have fought against them. Classic head and heart split arising from this. So, we cannot learn very much about our destiny from the Bee Genome Project. But the curiosity to find out how it all works is a vital expression of our nature. Unfortunately as with all these things, someone, some business, will exploit the knowledge gained to the general disadvantage with the delusion of advantage. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:03:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Proverbs about Bees Also it may be of interest that the Greek and Arabic translations of the Old Testament add an extra sentence to the famous Proverbs 6:8 admonition to the sluggard to "Look to the ant". I quote from my copy of the Septuagint: "Or go to the bee, and learn how diligent she is, and how earnestly she is engaged in her work; whos labors kings and private men use for heath, and she is desired and respected by all: though weak in body, she is advanced by honouring wisdom." While this is added to the Hebrew text, it was used early; Clemens of Alexandria quotes this. Perhaps the Muslim view of honey for health derives partially from this addition? The Arabic version originates from the Greek Septuagint. It is also worth noting that the Septuagint was translated around 150 B.C., and the bee is called "she". Regards to the list. Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:27:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Proverbs about Bees How about the Romanian proverb: Not everything that flies makes honey :-) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 05:54:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Proverbs about bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lupin time is swarming time. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:16:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Trattle Subject: Re: Proverbs about Bees In-Reply-To: <200208170303.g7H205cE023201@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can't remember where I heard this but how about "Bees in wood ne'er do no good" Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:01:14 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jan Tempelman Subject: Re: Do we have any experts on UK pollen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo Peter, can you make a pollen prep??? see http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/PollenCollMaken.html and then a jpeg or gif, as on http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/pollen98.html -------- The 1998 POLLEN REPORT from my backyard (West Europ, Rotterdam). All pictures: Casio QV-11, unedit GIF. I attach the camera direktly to the tube of the microscope ------- perhaps we can find the pollen in the reference books regards, jant Peter Edwards wrote: > I have recently noticed an unusual colour pollen in two of my apiaries, both > in combs and on the varroa floor. > > The colour, a purple/blue, -- Met vriendelijke groet, Jan Jan Tempelman Annie Romein-Verschoorpad 2-4 NL 4103 VE Culemborg tel.:0345-524433 mobile: 06 10719917 -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 07:01:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 14 Aug 2002 to 15 Aug 2002 (#2002-220) In-Reply-To: <76.20e451c6.2a8eda2b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << Knowing the conventional wisdom on > trying to overwinter with honeydew, I decided to see for myself if it was > as bad as claimed. It was. >> > > And yet in the forested areas of continental Europe honeydew has been a > mainstay of bees for thousands of years for over wintering. > Maybe you need the right sort of bees for a honeydew area. Or the right sort of winters? I would expect that honeydew would not be a problem where the bees are able to leave the hive on a regular basis. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:28:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 14 Aug 2002 to 15 Aug 2002 (#2002-220) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > << Knowing the conventional wisdom on > trying to overwinter with honeydew, I decided to see for myself if it was > as bad as claimed. It was. >> > > And yet in the forested areas of continental Europe honeydew has been a > mainstay of bees for thousands of years for over wintering. Maybe you need > the right sort of bees for a honeydew area. Might, but it is more likely the honeydew. There are many variants which are related to the plant/tree and to the insects secreting the honeydew. Some honeydews are definitely harmful to any sort of bee, winter or summer. I have noticed here in Maine that if someone gets thorough the winter with losses of 1/3 or more, they think that is the standard for all, since some of their friends also suffer the same sort of losses. While there are those who have few winter losses and they are considered abnormal. So even though there may be "no problem" with something it does not mean there is no problem. Bees are very forgiving. All depends on our expectations or the standards we set. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 07:56:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Just what is Foul (AFB/EFB) ? Comments: cc: OrganicBeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, NorlandBeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Allen and all: Allen I just read your and another thoughts concerning AFB. But there is a whole lot more to the problem, especially the soup mixtures of bacteria that really are presumptive evidence and present, that are looked at for AFB and EFB,to tell beekeepers what they supposedly have for troubles. Yet, it is B. alvei in many cases that is highly resistant to drugs and not the B. larvae and M.pluton. Other frequently found bacteria in these soup mixtures are A. eurydice, and B. laterosporus for presumptive evidence of the disease EFB. So if other bacteria have to be present for presumptive evidence and always there, then why do we get told it is AFB and EFB and as commercial beekeepers not given the whole picture? Especially if B. alvei is showing high resistance triggering out of control problems in many cases! Just figured I'd ask you about it and get you comments and thoughts. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:55:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Trattle Subject: Re: Proverbs about Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>"Bees in wood ne'er do no good" I think this is to do with bees intolerance of damp conditions and doing better in a sunny location. I'm pretty sure this is an British proverb so we're talking damp climate here. Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:08:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: what is foul (AFB/EFB)? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Allen and all: Since we have been talking about this very subject on Biobee I figured I'd post one here to get comments and thinking going more and add to your already on going thoughts on AFB. I think the thoughts of others need to be gotten on this subject matter: In a message dated 8/16/02 4:18:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pdillon@club-internet.fr writes: > To ensure that this fits with the philosophy of the list - a greater > understanding of the > bacterial inter-relationships would surely benefit biological > beekeeping, since there would be a better awareness of a natural situation > within bee > colonies. Peter, yes, this is very badly needed for in the study it was written: A. eurydice, B. alvei and B. laterosporus were frequently found in cases of EFB and are considered PRESUMPTIVE EVIDENCE of the disease, the causal agent being M. pluton. So here we have EFB and para-foul together, but also two others. Quite a soup mix! But why isn't this information given to beekeepers, especially today with the lesser like para-foul showing the high resistance setting the EFB off?? The article says: A. eurydice and B. laterosporous are secondary bacterial invaders and are considered to be PRESUMPTIVE EVIDENCE of EFB. So if they know EFB has this co-contained, shouldn't beekeepers know all the culprits causing their colonies to have troubles? I know that I would certainly like to know. Also, for AFB to quite often show that B. larvae, the cause of AFB is many times successfully isolated from mixed spore populations of B. larvae and B. alvei or even B. laterosporus as viewed by SEM (Scanning Electron MIcroscope by the way for those wanting to know what SEM means) , shouldn't this also be explained to beekeepers? Especially commercial in today's world of woes? Maybe if beekeepers knew they were up against more then one isolated problem they might react differently as to how they approach keeping such under control in their colonies. I know when we first found out, the unknowns were the ones killing our bees, I went ballistic, for who would know unless advised or told? and then to find them the resistant ones, left only one way out. . . retool or dope with what if nothing else approved for usage and we not like all these various dopes anyway. You have heard me say it. We were living with mites on 5.0mm - 5.1mm sizing, but not making a crop due to secondaries in la nina years and playing ketch up in el nino ones. But we had to break out of the time warp loop. We did this by betting on .1mm smaller for natural control of the secondaries. But in the meantime, where is the research on multi-infection of colonies which appears to be the norm, rather then isolated happenings? Why no one want to talk on it and let beekeepers believe otherwise? This to me is the big question! Best Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:07:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hensler Subject: Re: Ragweed pollen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" > Sadly many beekeepers have not a clue which plants produce the honey or > pollen in their hives. The uninformed beekeeper in Missouri says if its > light its clover and if its dark its wildflower. So how do you recommend we learn to identify exactly what plants the pollen and honey in our hives originated from? I can understand if one is marketing varietal honeys that he/she should be able to state with a fair degree of accuracy where the honey came from, but does the pollen really matter? Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:03:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: what is foul (AFB/EFB)? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all on Bee-L, Dee Lusby has quoted some of my comments as posted on BioBee -L. I hope that it is not considered bad form to try and put the discussion into context for those who do not follow BioBee -L. If offense is taken - my apologies and I hope that the moderators do their task! I have been puzzled by the background references to Para-foul brood and Parasitic Mite Syndrome for a while. Quote as posted on BioBee-L. "Dee, Your mail summarizing the article "Comparison of laboratory techniques for the detection of significant bacteria of the honeybee, Apis mellifera, in Argentina". Journal of Apicultural Research 30(2): 75-80 (1991) by Adriana M. Alippi Have not the possibility to read the original article, hence these questions! 1. In cases where AFB/EFB are not diagnosed but similar symptoms are present - it is then suggested that B. alevi is the cause? 2. If B.alvei is usually associated with M.pluton and in some cases P.larvae* - samples sent in for analysis return with which brood disease? i.e, those samples with M.pluton + B.alvei, are they classed as suffering from EFB? those samples with P.larvae + B.alvei, are they classed as suffering from AFB? or what. 3. When does the presence of B.alvei result in the decision that the colony has Para-foul brood instead of AFB or EFB? 4. Is it the case that EFB and Para - Foul Brood may be confused as the two causative agents coexist, but AFB and Para foul can't be, as either one or the other causative agent are present*? (note the contradicting positions*) I am really interested in what your thoughts are (or any other willing soul) on this topic that at the moment is confusing me, (hopefully just due to lack of info.) Many regards Peter" Therefore Bee-L subscribers, I was wondering how to tackle the situation where similar topics were being discussed on two lists - you have my attempt to square the circle! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:34:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Proverbs about Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit He who shareth honey with the bear hath the least part of it! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:46:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dan hendricks Subject: Re: Swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wayne said: "Since you must have vent holes in your bodies,and supers,do you place a wire screen or something similar over the vent holes to keep the Queen from escaping through them?" Wayne, when I have a queen excluder under my hive to force swarms to self-retrieve, I am careful to have no other openings available. Are you wondering about drone escapes? My sytem traps the drones in the hive. Moreover, when I inspect the hive, I wait until it is too late in the day for the bees to think of swarming while the hive is open. Dan --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:59:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Ragweed pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Skip, Skip wrote: >So how do you recommend we learn to identify exactly > what plants the pollen and honey in our hives originated from? The officers of the Midwestern Beekeepers assn. of which I am current vice president and former three term president feel id of pollen and honey plants is very important. As did the beekeepers of our club before us. We set aside a certain portion of each meeting to discuss the above. We also elect a "honey plants" person to give a report at each meeting. The honey plants person brings in samples of various plants each month and those plants are passed around for all members to look at. We also take the time to explain the color of the pollen produced by each plant. Our club was started in 1946 ( we have had a monthly meeting every month for 56 years without a miss) and each year we have had a honey plants person. For decades the honey plants commitee met each month to discuss "honey plants" in addition to our regular meeting (not meeting at present time ) I do not know if you have got a beekeeping club in your area Skip but they are a excellent way to learn about the honey and pollen producing plants in your area. In todays beekeeping with large areas of bee forage being lost yearly one needs to be aware of the honey and pollen producing plants in your area. Pick the brains of those older beekeepers (before they are all gone!). Skip wrote: I can understand if one is marketing varietal honeys that he/she should be able to state with a fair degree of accuracy where the honey came from, but does the pollen really matter? Probabbly not but if you observe your hives on a regular basis you will most times know the source of the pollen the bees are storing. Each pollen is a different color but at times many are close to the same color. Pine pollen and dandelion pollen can be difficult to tell apart by looks so you need to catch a worker at the entrance with your fingers and strip a pollen and taste the pollen. The flavor is very different. I could fill a book on the subject. My previous post only backed up the post by Lynn Lang on her observation that bees do gather and store ragweed pollen. Because ragweed pollen is at the top of the list for pollen allergies I find raw honey with ragweed pollen suspended to be the most effective honey for helping those with allergy problems. Most overprocessed store honey (not all store honey is overprocessed)has had all the pollen filtered out and is *useless* for allergies but still tastes great on pancakes! Buy the overprocessed honey for your pancakes if you want but hunt up local unprocessed honey for help with allergies. Excellent questions Skip! Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:36:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Ragweed pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Taken from the book "American Honey Plants" by Frank C. Pellett. pg.336: The great ragweed (Ambrosia trifida) is often called horseweed. This is a very common weed , growing to a height of 10 or 12 feet in North America. The ragweed does not produce nectar, but furnishes LARGE QUANTITIES OF POLLEN IN *late summer* and fall. Bob harrison: Late summer and fall eliminates most midwest clover honey extracted before Spetember as containing very much ragweed pollen. IN MY OPINION if the allergy is mainly from ragweed you need unprocessed honey with suspended ragweed pollen in order to help the body adjust to ragweed. Every allergy sufferer is different but those which suffer *cold like symptoms* during ragweed season *usually* find relief FROM MY EXPERIENCE if they take a teaspoon (or tablespoon) a day of unprocessed local honey (with suspended ragweed pollen) 30 days prior to the start of ragweed season. In my opinion the body adjusts to the ragweed slowly and does not produce a huge amount of histamines when the ragweed season starts. Hope this posts helps a allergy sufferer! Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:11:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J.J.Harrier" Subject: Re: Swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nah. They knew you were watching, so they thought they'd lull you into a false sense of security by going home again. So what did they do after you left? J. J. > I watched in amazement this swarm. Thoughts of, geesh > this one is going to get away and prolly die from lack of storage this > winter. Then all of a sudden, they all went back into the box they > came from. Huh ? Go figure, a practice swarm. mick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:33:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee In-Reply-To: <002401c24547$7829e000$50ae73d1@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Bob Harrison wrote: > > Unless there is new information only queens make the piping sound Allen Dick responded: >Try > >http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0111D&L=bee-l&P=R548 Try also: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/sci1964.htm Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:40:01 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I haven't replied sooner, Been doing my duties at the Brisbane Show where the beekeepers have a stand. > Interesting observation by Trevor . I on the other hand have never heard a > worker make a piping sound. I heard it again earlier this year. Same situation where I was looking for a queen bee in a nuc. I heard the piping coming from a frame I was looking at but did not see the bee doing the piping this time. When I put the frame down to look in the nuc, the queen was running around the bottom of the box. So it could not have been her making the piping noise but a worker. > However when Trevor says "is the piping sound we call queen calling > actually the workers" that the story has problems. The piping sounds the same to my ears. It may be that it is different if you were to be able to analyse the piping on some sort of machine. > I have also been involved with a large incubator full of queens (without > attendants) piping. So does the queen and worker make the same sound? Is it a similar sound that sounds the same to the human ear? > I do not dispute that Trevor did not hear a worker piping (I never have) but > do dispute the hypothesis he presented in his post that it might be the > attendants doing the piping and not the queen. I cannot prove it. All I know is that I have heard and seen workers piping. Bob has heard the piping from queens only in an incubator with no attendants so the queens must be doing the piping in that case. There was research project here in Australia to looking to see if the piping sound could be used to find queen bees. Will have a look to see what I can find on its conclusions and post it. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 19:53:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Accurate labeling of honey for Floral Source MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dan and All, Dan wrote: > The question is how do I ethically label a honey with respect to it's source? The rules for the floral source are general in the U.S. AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT LABEL PURE CLOVER OR PURE WILDFLOWER. The USDA will come down on you if you label a floral source as *pure*. Pure honey is ok but not a pure floral source. When shipping to many countries a claimed floral source you need a floral source certification from a laboratory that the honey is over a certain percent Tupelo, orange etc. > How do I guess how many apple blossoms in the orchard I set the hives (or adjoining orchard) vs how many cherry blossoms in an orchard 1 or 2 miles away? Bees like apple blossoms and hives strong enough can produce a surplus. The bees do seem to prefer dandelions and clover over the apple blossoms at times so you need to mow the orchard before pollination to keep the bees working the apple blossoms. You can label the honey *Apple blossom honey* but not PURE APPLE BLOSSOM HONEY. The majority of the honey should be from apple blossoms but if you were in Missouri would also include dutch clover, dandelion, and nectar from several trees such as Maples and willows. In my opinion bees are not going to travel 1-2 miles for cherry blossoms when there are plenty of apple blossoms to work within a acre of the hive. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:58:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Adrian and All, Adrian wrote: > Try also: > http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/sci1964.htm Interesting hypothesis Adrian. Twenty years trying to prove Von Frisch incorrect. Wow! I had to chuckle at Adrian saying Von Frish kept the recordings of bees Adrian sent . Used the tapes and did not give Adrian credit for the work. Is there no honor among researchers? Quote from pg. 285 of the new "Hive and the Honey Bee" by Adrian Wenner: "a train of pulsed sounds is made at the low frequency of 250-300 Hertz with a pulse duration of about 20 milliseconds and a rep frequency of approx. 30 per second". We all know these sounds are inaudible to the human ear (reason I never heard the sounds). Are you saying Adrian that because you have got tape recordings of workers making sounds inaudible to the human ear while doing the waggle dance that workers are capable of piping? Have you got a tape recording of a worker piping? Do workers make the same sound as the queen piping in your opinion Adrian? I skimmed your research papers and could not pull up the first page you posted. Did I miss a page on workers making the piping sound? I certainly have not got the knowledge on the subject as you do but you have aroused my curiosity. I certainly do not have the experience to say which hypothesis is correct. I suspect both to a degree. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:10:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hoguet Subject: Bee Book Recommendations Requested MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am trying to put together a small library of bee books for myself and would greatly appreciate if people on the list could recommend books that they have found particularly helpful either in giving them new insights into bees and beekeeping or in helping them to solve a particular problem. What book has really helped you or inspired you or changed your way of thinking? Thanking you in advance. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 07:53:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Beesound, piping bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Swarming is initiated by a special dance, the Schwirrlauf, the German word for whir dance. During the Schwirrlauf, workers move without stopping in straight lines across the comb. Every couple seconds, they vibrate their partially spread wings. These dancers also make occasional five second contacts with other worker bees. During this contact the bee makes a continuous piping sound. http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/beepop/wild.html ------------------------------------ Worker piping in honey bee swarms and its role in preparing for liftoff by Thomas D. Seeley and Jürgen Tautz Abstract: Worker piping, previously reported only in hives, was observed in swarms as they prepared to liftoff to fly to a new home. Pipers are excited bees which scramble through the swarm cluster, pausing every second or so to emit a pipe. Each pipe consists of a sound pulse which lasts 0.820.43 s and rises in fundamental frequency from 100-200 Hz to 200-250 Hz. Many, if not all, of the pipers are nest-site scouts. The scouts pipe when it is time to stimulate the non-scouts to warm themselves to a flight-ready temperature (35C) in preparation for liftoff. The time-course of worker piping matches that of swarm warming; both start at a low level, about an hour before liftoff, and both build to a climax at liftoff. When we excluded pipers from bees hanging in the cool, outermost layer of a swarm cluster, we found that these bees did not warm up. The form of worker piping that we have studied in swarms differs from the form of worker piping that others have studied in hives. We call the two forms "wings-together piping" (in swarms) and "wings-apart piping" (in hives). -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:59:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "a train of pulsed sounds is made at the low frequency of 250-300 Hertz ... > We all know these sounds are inaudible to the human ear (reason I never > heard the sounds). 250-300 Hz is well within the frequency range that most humans can hear. http://www.allchurchsound.com/ACS/edart/fmelc.html http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm In fact 'Middle C" should be 256 Hz on a properly tuned instrument. http://www.bcm.tmc.edu/oto/research/cochlea/Volta/03.html Some people can recognize this frequency (and others) and detect slight deviations from it without a reference tone. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:38:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Susan Nielsen Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee In-Reply-To: <006501c24780$3a1f21e0$f27dfea9@allen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Allen Dick wrote: > > We all know these sounds are inaudible to the human ear (reason I never > > heard the sounds). > > 250-300 Hz is well within the frequency range that most humans can hear. Furthermore, whether _we_ can hear it is hardly to the point. What we can hear with our auditory apparatus is hardly a measure of what a bee perceives without the same equipment. We can record things now that cannot be heard by the unaided ear. And we can certainly analyze the effects of sound outside our perceptual range. If what a modern telescope "sees" can be called a picture, a recording of something we cannot hear can certainly be called "sound." But, as Allen says, most people would have no trouble hearing sounds in the range of Middle C. Susan -- Susan Nielsen | Beehive: If you build it, snielsen@orednet.org | they will comb. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:10:01 +0100 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Honey for allergies. Comments: To: Bob Harrison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The nectar carried from the flower to the hive contains pollen grains in numbers varying from about 300 grains to 5000,000 grains per 10 gm of honey. This is seperate from the pollen carried in on the "pollen baskets" which is stored sepearately just above the brood. Ruary Rudd ----- Original Message ----- > From my experience bees store pollen and honey in seperate cells for the > most part. > Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:05:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Catch The Buzz Article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: kim@airoot.com To: undisclosed-recipients Sent: 8/19/2002 8:22 AM Subject: Catch The Buzz Article We're probably not going to sell tons of honey for this purpose, but the PR can't be beat. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Honey Helps Fight Flys Feeding honey to a parasitic wasp from Brazil helps it attack pest flies in the United States more vigorously, Agricultural Research Service scientists and cooperators report. ARS scientists at the Center for Medical, Agricultural and Veterinary Entomology in Gainesville, Fla., and cooperators at the University of Campinas in Brazil are evaluating the Brazilian wasp as part of an effort to screen exotic wasp species from that country that may be biocontrol candidates against flies in the United States. Certain parasitic wasps native to the United States are now used to control houseflies and stable flies, which are nuisances on livestock and poultry farms and transport disease-causing organisms, according to entomologist Christopher J. Geden at the ARS lab in Gainesville. The parasitic wasps reduce insecticide use while saving farmers time and money. Farmers can buy native parasitic wasps from commercial insectaries. But the effectiveness of native parasitic wasps is limited, because they will only feed on and lay their eggs inside fly pupae. One foreign wasp species being evaluated (Tachinaephagus zealandicus) attacks flies in the earlier larval stage. Used together, the native and parasitic wasps could attack flies in their larval and pupal stages, resulting in more effective fly control. Unlike native wasps, however, foreign wasps do not derive energy from their hosts, according to Geden. So they need an energy boost. The researchers found that feeding the wasps honey tripled their attack rate on target flies and increased the amount of progeny developing in flies. The Gainesville and Brazilian researchers also discovered that honey treated with the antibiotic rifampicin helps T. zealandicus ward off a debilitating new disease transmitted from females to their offspring. Infected wasps take longer to develop into adults and lay substantially more male eggs--a real barrier for rearing wasps for biological control. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine http://www.airoot.com/beeculture/index.htm For an archive Catch the Buzz postings, visit: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/buzz/index.html To unsubscribe to this emailing, simply goto: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/buzz/unsubscribe.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:52:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Honey and heart disease I see from a report on teletext tonight that the University of Illinois has published research that shows that eating honey helps prevent heart disease. This needs more publicity! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:28:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Accurate honey labelling for floral source MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/08/02 05:03:49 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << The bees do seem to prefer dandelions and clover over the apple blossoms at times >> Bob, In the UK I have never seen clover in flower at the same time as apples.. Do you have different varieties to us or is it the climate? Dandelions do coincide with apples although dandelion wine-making time does vary from year to year according to the weather between (in the south) the first and the third week in April. Last year while on holiday in Austria just after midsummer I found an alpine meadow flushed with dandelions at about 7,000 feet. Clovers were also flowering at that time and place. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:42:06 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Honey Bee Genome Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A number of people have offered opinions on the pending Honey Bee Genome project. Positions have ranged far and wide, but I get the impression that people don't "get" the basic point of the effort. The point of the effort is not to manipulate DNA. No one will be manipulating DNA to attempt to create a "Super Bee", a "Frankenstein Bee", or recreate any of the 1950s Japanese monster movies (which were clearly "B Movies"). The point is to create a "map", and to locate the genes associated with various traits of interest. This has been done with the fruit fly (Drosophila), and the results have been impressive. Check out http://www.fruitfly.org to see just how much one can do with a well-understood genome. Then, when breeding bees through NORMAL MEANS, one can compare the DNA of the newly-bred bees with the "map", and quickly see if the desired trait's associated gene is "on" or "off". This beats the heck out of current trait-testing methods, which are not far removed from those used by Gregor Mendel back in the 1800s. The value is in being able to SCREEN bees, and avoiding all the time-consuming testing one might otherwise be forced to endure. Cloning bees would take skills and equipment beyond the means of the typical bee breeder. Cloning is still at best a hit-and-miss undertaking even when attempted by well-funded experts. Most cloning attempts don't make it out of the petri dish. Any commercial bee breeder that tried to clone his bees would quickly go bankrupt. You can (and should!) support this effort, and you can do so without any fear of anything getting out of hand. You haven't seen any giant teenage mutant ninja fruit flies buzzing around, and the fruit fly fellows are way, way ahead of us. jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:47:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Accurate honey labelling for floral source MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris and All, Chris wrote: > In the UK I have never seen clover in flower at the same time as apples.. Do you have different varieties to us or is it the climate? We get white Dutch early in the season before the main honey flow from white Dutch. Because the apple groves we pollinate skimp on the number of hives ordered we insist all orchards be mowed. To be precise the bees work the apple blossoms and dandelions most of the day but the white Dutch only for a couple hours when conditions are right. Sometimes they ignore the white Dutch until the main flow for reasons I do not FULLY understand. In my opinion it would be hard to label any source a pure source. These three examples are as close to pure at times . I am sure other BEE-L people can list others from their home areas. Orange in Florida with only orange groves for many miles . Irrigated Alfalfa and cotton in the desert can be very close to pure source. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:32:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and All, Allen wrote: > 250-300 Hz is well within the frequency range that most humans can hear. I am a beekeeper and out of my area of expertise but will comment of the three websites Allen provided. The church study says "256" cycles per second for middle C . Are cycles the same as Hertz? The "Fletcher Munson" study Allen provided says hearing starts at 500 to 1500 Hz. Which would make the quote by Michelson correct or am I missing something? I did not understand the other site provided. I did not know the level of Hertz when most people can first hear when I did the post and only commented after reading the statement by Michelson.from pg. 286. I should have added this sentence by Michelsen from page 286 of the 92 "Hive and the Honey Bee "(the sentence directly follows my earlier quote) : "These sounds (250-300Hertz )are produced by the wings of the dancing bee and are INAUDIBLE to the HUMAN EAR"( Michelsen 1987). If 250-300 Hertz is very much within the range of human hearing as Allen suggests then the above quote taken directly from pg. 286 need to be changed in the next edition of "The Hive and the Honey Bee". Is 250-300 Hertz beyond the hearing of humans? If Allen is correct then I will contact my friends at Dadant for a correction in the next edition of " The Hive and the Honey Bee". Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Any comments on the Michelsen statement( pg. 286 first sentence) from Dadant by Joe Graham or Jerry Hayes? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:18:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Honey Bee Genome Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" James writes: >The point of the effort is not to manipulate DNA. No one will be >manipulating DNA to attempt to create a "Super Bee" However, in the "White Paper for a Honey Bee Genome Project" you can read: >[the] HBGP is necessary for efficient genomic bio-prospecting and as I quoted before, Daniel Weaver says: >As a honey bee breeder, I am particularly excited about what the >sequence information could do to accelerate breeding superior honey >bees. The information gleaned from the HBGP will dramatically >improve our ability to develop new strains of honey bees that resist >parasites and disease, tolerate insecticide exposure and exhibit >reduced defensive behavior. So I say, wrong James. They DO want to manipulate DNA, they DO want to breed a "superior honey bee". I suggest you and everyone else get a copy of the proposal and read it. This technology is NOT "value-neutral" and it is NOT just about science. Genomic bio-prospecting is mainly about making money. Which is not a bad thing, of course, but who says it won't get out of hand? There is ample evidence that companies like Monsanto do NOT have a handle on where their patented genes are going. And we still don't have a solution to all the problems the nuclear power industry created. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:50:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J.J.Harrier" Subject: Re: Proverbs about Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This does refer to the days when bees were kept in skeps, of course. J. J. > A swarm of bees in May > Is worth a load of hay; > A swarm of bees in June > Is worth a silver spoon; > A swarm of bees in July > Is not worth a fly. -- Old Rhyme ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:35:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The church study says "256" cycles per second for middle C . Are cycles the > same as Hertz? Herz is the 'new' term for cycles per second. It became the standard unit sometime in mid-twentieth century AFAIK. > The "Fletcher Munson" study Allen provided says hearing starts at 500 to > 1500 Hz. I searched, but could not find any such statement. I did find this: "From about 500Hz to roughly 1,500Hz the line is flat on the 10dB scale", but this does not mean the same thing at all. Perhaps you could point us to the exact spot? > Which would make the quote by Michelson correct or am I missing > something? Well, I'm fairly sure Michelson is correct. It seems quite clear to me that 'inaudible' in this case was intended to suggest a low sound amplitude, and that suggestion was so obvious to the writer, knowing as he did that 250-300 Hz is centred well within the normal human hearing range, that he did not see any need to explain further. Understanding technical material requires an understanding of the topic and the underlying definitions, as well as the assumptions and the conventions of the field. For those outside the field, it is very easy to misunderstand what is being said, become very convinced of that misinterpretation, and even cite the authority to be saying something that was not even imagined by the writer (or speaker). > "These sounds (250-300Hertz )are produced by the wings of the dancing bee > and are INAUDIBLE to the HUMAN EAR"( Michelsen 1987). > > If 250-300 Hertz is very much within the range of human hearing as Allen > suggests then the above quote taken directly from pg. 286 need to be > changed in the next edition of "The Hive and the Honey Bee". No, IMO the passage is fine as it stands. > Is 250-300 Hertz beyond the hearing of humans? It can be if the amplitude is sufficiently low. > If Allen is correct then I will contact my friends at Dadant for a > correction in the next edition of " The Hive and the Honey Bee". I'll be interested in their response. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:09:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Book Recommendations Requested MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mark, Mark wrote: >I am trying to put together a small library of bee books for myself and > would greatly appreciate if people on the list could recommend books There are many excellent books on bees. I would start with books which correspond to your level of beekeeping and then work up to the higher level books. The books of the last 20 years are the best for getting you up to speed on today's beekeeping. ABC and XYZ( A.I. Root) and Hive and the Honey Bee(Dadant) are without a doubt the most popular beekeeping books ever sold in the U.S.. Almost all public libraries carry these books. The new edition of ABC and XYZ of beekeeping is about to hit the market. Kim Flottum says many changes has been made in the new edition. (beginner to advanced) The Beekeepers Handbook / Diana Sammataro is one of the best beginner and intermediate beekeeping books on the market The Hive and the Honey Bee (1992) / Dadant would be my pick for the intermediate to advanced beekeeper.(until I see the new ABC/XYZ) As I have said before on BEE-L my family has instructions to donate my beekeeping books to the library of the Midwestern beekeepers assn. upon my death. I add beekeeping books to the inventory every year. Several ways to get older bee books without paying top dollar. 1. attend bee equipment auctions 2. look in old book stores and give owners your phone number 3. Give your name to auctioneers to buy old bee books for you. (Currently I have got three auctioneers looking for books) 4. Give your name to dealers in used books ( I see these folks once a year and usually buy the books they have found for me). Some of the books the dealers buy for a cheap price (maybe less than a dollar) but charge me a price quite a bit higher (still less than internet prices). In my opinion you need to let the used book dealers make a reasonable profit or they will stop looking for books for you. The dealers really do not know the value of old beekeeping books. I tell the dealers if the book is about bees and reasonable chances are I will buy the book. Over the year the dealer will pick up from a couple books to a dozen. Many times the book they think I most likely are not interested in is the book I am interested in the most. Prices are negotiable but keep in mind the dealer will lose interest in the arrangement is he can not make a profit. Last year I traded hive products for the books they found for me. Most old beekeeping books are NOT in pristine condition. Remember you are most interested most in the information the book contains. The used book dealers price many times on the condition rather than the rarity of the book. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:26:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee/hearing range MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I will stick my oar in this one... > 250-300 Hz is well within the frequency range that most humans can hear Absolutely, hearing does vary between individuals, but the lower end of the 'heard' spectrum starts for most humans somewhere between 8 Hz and 30 Hz. The upper end depends on age, as it declines from somewhere in the region 30 kHz - 50 kHz in young children. This deteriorates to 10 kHz - 30 kHz for individuals at 65 years of age. > Are cycles the same as Hertz? Cycles per second = Hertz > The "Fletcher Munson" study Allen provided says hearing starts at 500 to > 1500 Hz Balderdash, Most notes on musical instruments would never be heard if this were true. Human hearing varies between individuals, quite widely, but 250-300 Hz will be easily audible to anyone that is not actually deaf. 500 Hz is often used as a lower limit in communications circuits, because the human ear can cope with minimal information, not because low frequencies cannot be heard. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:59:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Free Newsletter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a reminder that Tom Sanford offers his Apis Newsletter free to anyone who is interested. It is the original and still the best. To subscribe to Apis, send an email to: Apis_Newsletter-subscribe@yahoogroups.com allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:17:23 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Owen Watson Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Does anybody have any urls for the actual sounds, rather than just descriptions? -- --Owen Watson --at home in Wellington, New Zealand --Don't reply to erewhon@rsnz.govt.nz -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:42:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Honey Bee Genome Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" From "White Paper for a Honey Bee Genome Project": >[the] HBGP is necessary for efficient genomic bio-prospecting What is Bio-Prospecting? The hunt for new genes to exploit for profit is regarded as a vast new frontier in science and industry. "Bioprospectors" are mining the rich genetic resources of the Third World for pharmaceutical compounds and other products, often using indigenous knowledge as their guide. As a result, indigenous communities could end up paying royalties for products based on plants and knowledge that they have been using for centuries. The neem tree, a native of the Indian subcontinent, has a myriad of applications in traditional Indian Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine, agriculture, and household use, as well as being symbolic as "Gandhi's favorite tree." Its usefulness is known throughout India. The Latin name, Azadirachta indica, is derived from the Persian for "free tree," as even the poorest families have access to its beneficial properties. However, it is possible that Indian citizens will soon be required to pay royalties on the products produced from the neem, since a patent has been granted to the U.S. company W.R. Grace on a compound in the tree (azadirachtin) for the production of a biopesticide. In 1993, over five hundred thousand South Indian farmers rallied to protest foreign patents on plants such as the neem, and launched a nation-wide resistance movement. Under free trade agreements such as GATT (General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade), countries of the developing world will feel strong pressures to implement U.S.-style patent systems. Multi-national corporations can make large profits on their "discoveries," while depriving the communities which have fostered this knowledge for centuries of the choice of how they would like to use their own knowledge and native species. No individual, institution or corporation should be able to claim ownership over species or varieties of living organisms. Nor should they be able to hold patents on organs, cells, genes or proteins, whether naturally occurring, genetically altered or otherwise modified. http://www.actionbioscience.org/genomic/crg.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:25:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Accurate honey labelling for floral source In the central coast area of California, pure Eucalyptus isn't hard to come by in Jan-Feb. Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:18:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen, I must have misunderstood the study. Below is the entire sentence. Be gentle Allen as I do not understand the whole phons and hertz business. (The loudness level in phons is a subjective sensation--- this is the level we perceive the sound to be at) From about 500hz to roughly 1,500 hz the line is flat on the 10b scale. Does the above not indicate that human hearing of sound begins around 500 hz? Would not 500hz be in line if the Michelson quote was correct saying that between 250hz to 300 hz was inaudible to humans? Even with my limited knowledge (and your saying that the quote I presented by Michelson 1987 should stand) I can not help but to believe that 250 to 300 hz is beyond the hearing range of most people working a bee hive outdoors. Sincerely, Bob > The "Fletcher Munson" study Allen provided says hearing starts at 500 to > > 1500 Hz. Allen wrote: > I searched, but could not find any such statement. I did find this: "From > about 500Hz to roughly 1,500Hz the line is flat on the 10dB scale", but > this does not mean the same thing at all. Perhaps you could point us to > the exact spot? > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:57:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mike.rossander@CGEY.COM Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii excerpted... > (The loudness level in phons is a subjective sensation--- this is the level we perceive the sound to be at) From about 500hz to roughly 1,500 hz the line is flat on the 10b scale. > Does the above not indicate that human hearing of sound begins around 500 hz? No, it does not indicate that human hearing begins around 500 hz. The threshold of human (and any other) hearing is a combination of the frequency (measured in Hertz - also called cycles per second) and amplitude. Frequency is the pitch of the sound. Think of the keys on a piano. The amplitude is the intensity or energy of the sound wave (measured in decibels). Think of hitting the same key harder or softer. Your perception of loudness is measured in phons. The perception of loudness is non-linear. The human ear is optimized to hear best in the middle frequencies. As you get further to the ends of the frequency spectrum, the sound has to have more energy for you to hear it (or to perceive it to be the same loudness). So, a tone at 5,000 Hz will require more energy (more decibels) to sound the same loudness as a tone at 500 Hz. The frequency limits of human hearing are the highest and lowest frequencies that can be heard regardless of how loud the sound is. This varies by person, by age and by a number of other factors. I remember learning that the average frequency range for human hearing is approximately 50 to 50,000 Hz. A 10 Hz sound (elephants communicate in this range) can not be heard by human ears even if you're standing right next to it. A 100,000 Hz sound (dog whistle?) can't be heard by a human ear (most people anyway) even though an oscilliscope can show that it is putting out as many decibels as a police whistle. Okay, that's not exactly true. The 50-50,000 range was defined at a constant but low energy level. Put enough energy into a very low sound and you might hear something even though it's "outside" the frequency range. What the original quote says is that within a certain range, you can approximate hearing as linear. If you make a 10 decibel tone, it will sound approximately the same loudness whether it is at 500 Hz or 1,500 Hz. A graph would make this much easier to understand. Here's a couple of good links. http://www.rwc.uc.edu/koehler/biophys/9d.html http://www.engr.uky.edu/~donohue/audio/fsear.html Sounds in the 250-300 Hz range are well within the range of human hearing. If I remember right, that's about middle C to about D sharp. ______________________________________________________________________ This message contains information that may be privileged or confidential and is the property of the Cap Gemini/Ernst & Young Group. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:23:38 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Honey Bee Genome Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My fellow scientist James 'supercollider' provides a useful sketch of some aims of sequencing bee DNA. I add a few comments. GM is considerably more complicated than even complex technology such as nuclear power. If ever there was a policy whose technical basis is unintelligible to most people, yet whose effects could harm them, gene-manipulation is it. Gushing enthusiasm devoid of scientific basis will not do - and should not be posted here, especially from non-members. I have been startled to find that many of my few attempts to alert beekeepers on this list to some main concerns about GM have been suppressed. None of the moderators has declared freedom from vested interest in the issue, which I happily declare again regarding myself. Also worth repeating are the main sites http://www.ucsusa.org and http://www.psrast.org/ James wrote: > the basic point of the effort is only to use DNA sequences to speed >identification of particular genes, as if this could supplant genetics as >we know it. Well-funded plant-breeder scientists are already using this technique , termed 'marker-assisted selection', to speed development of hybrids with high concentrations of particular compounds (Plant Breeding News 118, 31.10.2000). Here's a good summary: CORN GENETICISTS ADVANCE USING BIOTECH TO SPEED CLASSICAL PLANT BREEDING September 12, 2001 USDA ARS News Service Biotechnology, somewhat like the proverbial hare in its contest with the tortoise, raced speedily to bring forth corn transformed with a bacterial protein to resist insects. But now the new science is set to help hasten traditionally slower classical plant breeding to develop insect-resistant corn breeding lines, without the foreign genes. For example, through 15 years of work, researchers developed corn inbred line Mo47, which is renowned for its ability to resist both first and second generations of the European corn borer. On U.S. farms, European corn borers are responsible for annual damage and control costs exceeding $1 billion. Recently, Agricultural Research Service (ARS) scientists at Columbia, Mo., and their University of Missouri colleagues, in three years, used fast-paced biotechnological tools to find locations of DNA sequences that confer borer resistance to Mo47. Soon corn geneticists, in a process called marker-assisted selection, may use the information to quickly develop improved insect-resistant corn from diverse genetic resources. Marker-assisted selection is a way of dealing with the fact that typically, multiple genes govern a single trait of economic importance. These genes' locations are called quantitative trait loci (QTLs). In DNA marker-assisted selection, researchers conduct DNA tests on corn breeding lines to find out whether they have the most desired QTLs. Lines that do are used for breeding. The scientists in Missouri found, on six chromosomes, nine QTLs associated with Mo47's resistance to first-generation European corn borer leaf feeding damage. The researchers also found seven QTLs for resistance to second-generation borer stalk tunneling damage. ARS geneticist Michael D. McMullen and collegaues in Missouri found, on six chromosomes, nine QTLs associated with Mo47's resistance to first-generation European corn borer leaf feeding damage. The researchers also found seven QTLs for resistance to second-generation borer stalk tunneling damage. ======== James wrote of this: > This beats the heck out of current trait-testing >methods, which are not far removed from those used by >Gregor Mendel back in the 1800s. >The value is in being able to SCREEN bees, and avoiding all the >time-consuming testing one might otherwise be forced to endure. 'Nineteenth-century' does not equal 'inferior', let alone 'supplanted'. Effects of novel synthetic genes on phenotype still have to be checked in real biology, rather than casually assumed from the Lego model of biology invented by the gene-jockeys. Selection of organisms for particular traits is, to an important extent, pegged to the time-scales of real biology. If you think you've got a better organism, it will have to be studied for a few generations. But marker-assisted selection will indeed speed, to some worthwhile extent, the identification of desirable lines of bee for testing. >The point is to create a "map", and to locate the genes >associated with various traits of interest. This has been >done with the fruit fly (Drosophila), and the results have >been impressive. Check out http://www.fruitfly.org to >see just how much one can do with a well-understood >genome. I doubt many would see any accomplishments on the front page of that site. Could we have a summary of how sequencing that fly DNA has helped? >The point of the effort is not to manipulate DNA. No one >will be manipulating DNA to attempt to create a "Super Bee", >a "Frankenstein Bee", or recreate any of the 1950s Japanese >monster movies (which were clearly "B Movies"). Several C Movies are currently being run by Monsanto, Syngenta, etc. >Cloning bees would take skills and equipment beyond the means of >the typical bee breeder. Cloning is still at best a hit-and-miss undertaking >even when attempted by well-funded experts. Most cloning attempts don't >make it out of the petri dish. That will not stop some enthusiasts from trying - as they have done with cows, goats & sheep. > Any commercial bee breeder that tried to >clone his bees would quickly go bankrupt. This constraint does not apply to J Celera Venter or hundreds of other sequencing-enthusiasts. When the BBC World Service interviewed me on the enormous venture-capital bubble of DNA sequencing, I stated the 'human genome project' is a vulgar con-trick. I stand by this condemnation. I see little reason to feel any more confident of the honey-bee sequencing caper. Nicholas Wade, one of the most experienced science journalists, wrote in the New York Times 2y ago that nearly all GM corporations had yet to win a dollar of revenue, let alone net a profit. Stock-market ramps up into mid-air are the usual situation. I would be glad to send details in RTF to anyone who requests direct. >You can (and should!) support this effort, and you can do so without >any fear of anything getting out of hand. I cannot agree with this view, which I consider short-sighted. Many hazards for bees would be entailed in anything like what has been attempted so far with gene-manipulation of other animals. > You haven't seen any giant >teenage mutant ninja fruit flies buzzing around, and the fruit fly fellows >are way, way ahead of us. I agree profoundly that our distasteful subject cannot be long discussed without adding some humour. However, I would discourage this kind of slang. To postulate ridiculous scenarios, and then say they haven't happened yet, is unhelpful. Mark Chase et 99 proposed, 3y ago, that classification of the flowering plants should no longer be on the geometry of the flowers but on DNA sequences in non-coding parts of 3 particular genes. Not only children but even you & I would be thus prevented from identifying flowering plants by family in fieldwork. The lotus _Nelumbo nucifera_ was not closely related to water-lilies as had always been thought - these Kew etc experts announced by newspaper, and then in a respectable scientific journal - but to the plane-trees of London. It is disturbing for outsiders to glimpse the sudden, spectacular degradations of science by the DNA-fanatics. Please don't blame the messenger. That is one glimpse of how the DNA fad has been spinning out of control. I have yet to see how it can much help beekeeping; and I do not doubt that some key operatives do, as James denies, intend to apply bee-DNA sequencing to "improving" bees by inserting artificial genes. This has been done to soybeans, cotton, potatoes, etc, and attempted with mammals; why should we believe the power-crazed gene-jockeys will lay off the bees? The last big NZ govt grant ($500,000) for varroa research went to a researcher (in a commercial rather than govt-controlled) lab who has since been speaking warmly if vaguely with beekeepers about his attraction to gene-manipulation of bees. It is naive to suppose that only marker-assisted selection will be attempted by such researchers. They haven't read Genesis 3 lately, if ever. Can we expect better than personal insults & suppression for those who say 'be afraid; be very afraid'? I happen to have 3 decades experience saying to that effect about various dangerous technologies, mainly within my little country; and I have never been so worried as I am about GM. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:22:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike, Thanks for explaining the examples Allen gave. Would you mind explaining what is correct and what is missing with the quote of Michelson? > "These sounds (250-300Hertz )are produced by the wings of the dancing bee and are INAUDIBLE to the HUMAN EAR"( Michelsen 1987). In other words why does Michelsen say we can not hear these sounds if we can as you, Chris and Allen say ? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 02:15:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: unseen AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The conversation about AFB cycling and no disease symptoms usually comes up when we are talking about antibiotic resistance, because Allen questions how resistance could possibly have evolved as a consequence of selection from continued antibiotic use, when during antibiotic use you never see the disease, and presumably, no generations of AFB pass." Allen, Dangerous to presume that no generations of AFB pass! And once this is admitted that this is not correct - then surely resistant P.larvae in the presence of antibiotics is possible. If a lethal dose of antibiotic is committed to the bacterial colony - all susceptible material dies. BUT, if due to natural mutation, a select cell resists, the bee colony will show no visible signs of AFB, even though a strain is present which may if conditions allow develop into a resistant population. If this is not considered as a viable route or method, how do you explain resistance arising in V.d (and many other such problems presenting themselves in the agricultural and human health domain)? Antibiotics are also invariably applied in a way that quantities present throughout a bee colony are not equal. Hence, lethal, non lethal situations exist. This, itself would possibly allow for specific cells that are able to metabolize limited quantities of antibiotic (biocide) to survive, allowing in turn future generations of more tolerant bacteria to arise. The logical end point is a fully resistant strain arriving on the scene - in such quantities that symptomatic evidence again presents itself after a period of apparent absence. Also - is it held that AFB is due to the presence of only and uniquely P.larvae? Peter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:10:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Re: Gm crops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mr. Mann, Holler all you want on the GM. I had some hives next to the gm crops. And was losing them fast. Moved them , some were weak but finally came through. I wont keep any near them knowingly. The problem is now you cant steal corn along the roads:)) Those roasted ears were so good:) Now they may kill you. preacher ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Beesound, piping bee In-Reply-To: <001101c24898$231988a0$88ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Would you mind explaining what is correct and what is missing > with the quote of Michelson? > > > "These sounds (250-300Hertz )are produced by the wings of the > dancing bee > and are INAUDIBLE to the HUMAN EAR"( Michelsen 1987). > > > In other words why does Michelsen say we can not hear these sounds if we > can as you, Chris and Allen say ? Michelsen has not said that we cannot hear sounds of this frequency, he said that we cannot hear this particular sound. Perhaps it is simply not loud enough (as could be true of a sound at any frequency). Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:43:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: leaf blower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I just tried out some advice some of you talked about. I got a weed blower and used it removing bees. And I believe my bee ecsape days are over. Worked great, no mad bees, and quicker time made. thanks preacher ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:48:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Gm crops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" preacherc@CVALLEY.NET wrote: > Holler all you want on the GM. I had some hives next to the gm crops. > And was losing them fast. Moved them, some were weak but finally came > through. I won't keep any near them knowingly. An interesting tidbit that I picked up second hand at EAS was that the BT Pollen from GM Corn (the same pollen that raised all the concern over Monarch caterpillars) is killing wax moth larva in the hive! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:59:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Human Hearing-Frequency range MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The generally accepted range is 20 to 20,000 Hertz (Hz)(Cycles per second), although there does of course have to be a certain volume of sound. A common low frequency sound is the AC hum coming from electrical equipment such as transformers and fluorescent lights. This is the mains AC frequency of 50 Hz (60 Hz for you turbocharged Americans). This was the original speed at which 2 Pole AC alternators could be reasonably driven (3000 RPM - 3600 in America) by the old steam engines -this frequency is very accurate for anyone that wants to carry out a frequency check, since the utility companies are mandated to maintain accuracy in order to keep our electric clocks accurate. Alan Riach Bathgate,Edinburgh Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:17:59 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Honey for allergies. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garry Libby asked: >> Bill, wouldn't the honey have to have ragweed pollen in it to help set up >> the bodies antibodies to prevent allergic reaction? Do bees visit ragweed? I >> think the people that aren't helped are the ones allergic to pollen that >> honeybees don't collect, wouldn't that be a reasonable explanation? ...and Bill Truesdale replied: > Interesting question.. are there are pollens that bees do not collect? > My guess is there are none, since they collect any pollen like > substances and take it back to their hives. I have seen them collect > corn dust from my bird feeder... But the "trace amounts" of pollen in honey is going to be from the plants where the nectar was gathered. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that honey not filtered within an inch of its life will contain pollen, but no pollens from "non-nectar" plants like ragweed or corn. There is a growing practice of identifying nectar sources, and thus, the legitimacy of honey, by looking at pollen grains in honey with high-powered microscopes. Vaughn Bryant of Texas A&M will even do this as a service (for a fee) to food inspectors who want to verify the pedigree of substances claimed to be honey, or beekeepers who want to be very, very certain of their floral sources. There is even a book one can buy with photomicrographs of various pollen grains that acts as a "field guide to pollen" for the small number of people with a high-tech filter or a centrifuge, a decent microscope, and far too much time on their hands. A pollen trap would allow one to collect pollen from plants that are not nectar sources, but I have no idea what an allergic person would do with the pollen pellets. I'm not sure that eating pollen pellets or honey would help build tolerance to something that irritates one's breathing hardware. As a practical example, we all eat lots of pepper in our food, but most of us still sneeze if we get a good whiff of it. Is there an allergist in the house? Further complicating the issue is the fact that bees can't gather much of the "windblown" pollens that are the most common allergens, simply because the wind blows much of the pollen away before the bees can get to it. The non-windblown pollens that bees commonly collect can't be very significant allergens, as they are not "wind carried". All in all, I can't give too much credence to the claims that local honey will help people with allergies, but I would never argue with someone's reason for buying honey, because I know that honey certainly cannot hurt, and seems to have a good anecdotal track record, even if the only effect is that of a placebo. It looks like pollen may be all I get as a "fall crop". The drought in VA is so bad that I went to EAS 2002, then spent the following week vacationing, and came back to a lawn that needed no cutting. Only rains of biblical proportions can pull us out of this, as this is the 4th consecutive year of what even the official experts call "drought". It's been so dry that I saw a tree following a dog the other day! jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:04:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Human Hearing-Frequency range MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan, Thanks for the info on human hearing-frequency range.. *Fact remains however* The wing sounds could not be heard by human ears in the *opinion* of Michelsen. Thanks to all which responded. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps I have watched many many a waggle dance over the years and have never heard a sound. I will however try to listen closer. One hardly opens a hive in spring and summer without observing the waggle dance. I am taking a doctors stethoscope with me when I go to the bees in about an hour. I will also listen for workers piping. Never heard a worker piping but slightly over 40 years among the bees might not be enough time. In my opinion most queen piping is done when queens are removed from the hive or caged. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:03:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: LLOYDSPEAR Subject: Pollen in honey and allergies Jim Fischer makes good points concerning the ability (or lack thereof) of pollen in honey to alleviate the symptoms arising from allergic reactions to windblown pollens. I also agree with Jim that there may be more to this story than is immediately evident. I have no medical training, and my knowledge of biology is limited to the standard stuff taught in biology 101. With that out of the way, I have a daughter who was (is?) allergic to just about everyone of the more than 100 substances that she was tested for AND a good customer who is an allergist. My understanding is: 1. A person is never 'cured' of an allergy. However, various treatments may result in that person no longer displaying allergic symptoms such as eyes watering, runny nose, hives, headaches, etc. Relief from the symptoms would make the typical person very happy. Otherwise, they don't really care if they are medically allergic. 2. When one is told that they are allergic to ragweed pollen (or any other pollen), this is just shorthand for saying "by testing, we have found that you are allergic to ragweed pollen. 'However, ragweed pollen contains several ingredients that are also found in other pollens, so you are highly likely to also be allergic to ingredients in other pollens that are not found in ragweed. 'While it is impractical for us to test you for reactions to all pollens or to find out just which pollen ingredients are producing the allergy, we can relieve your symptoms in a variety of ways." The prescription drug way of relieving those symptoms is through use of histamines. Histamines are more (over-the-counter type) or less (prescription only) generalized. They will relieve the symptoms (and all have some side effects) but not prevent the production of allergens which, in turn, produce the symptoms. The only way to reduce the production of allergens ("cure") is through gradual exposure to the underlying ingredients so that the immune system no longer recognizes them as 'foreign'. An allergist who is a customer tells me that consuming pollen in honey MAY mean that persons initially allergic to windborne pollens become immune. Whether they no longer show allergic symptoms will depend on how much pollen they consume as well as the ingredients of the pollen in the honey. He buys my honey for his wife who is so allergic that unless her symptoms are relieved she may as well just stay in bed for 3-4 weeks every August! He and his wife moved to this area from California (where she had the same problem and used the same 'treatment') about 5 years ago. The first year she suffered but by the second she had become acclimated to the local pollens and since has not had any difficulties. I have sent a blind copy of this message to my customer, and invited him to add comments or correct my feeble way of explaining what is a complicated subject. I hope I have helped beekeepers understand just 'why' consumption of local honey seems to help so much. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:07:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ross Langlands Subject: Heather honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is the first time I've had my bees at the honey in Scotland. Watson in his book "Sixty Years with Bees" states that in his experience the bees take no further honey off after the 6th of September and that he always brings his hives back by the 11th September. This seems like a stunning generalization dependent on site, season and altitude. I would welcome any advice. Ross Langlands ********************************************************************** The information contained in this message may be confidential or legally privileged and is intended for the addressee only, If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. **********************************************************************