From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:39:39 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SARE_FRAUD_X4,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74354906F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3sG010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0211D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 109003 Lines: 2427 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:31:16 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Labeling Honey As "Non-GM"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Today, I picked up a can of "Rumford baking powder" in the kitchen, and noticed a prominent starburst on the label saying: "Not Genetically Modified" This is the first such label I have seen on a US national-brand product, (Ben & Jerry's ice cream has done so for some time, but they don't really count, as they are owned by "Unilever", a British company better known for soap than ice cream, which may explain some of the more unusual ice cream flavors recently created.) ...so it caught my attention. I wondered if I should start labeling my honey with a similar starburst. It also made me stop and think - what COULD possibly be "GM" in baking powder? As it turns out, there is some corn starch in baking powder, and I guess the "Starlink" corn incident prompted the Rumford people to take matters into their own hands. British and European members of this list have often mentioned their concerns about genetically modified crops. While there appears to be much less overt anger about GM crops and food in the US, there is a slowly growing public consensus building that food should be labeled if it contains GM ingredients. The UPI newswire reported this month that 88.4% of people surveyed in the US thought that GM labeling should be required. http://www.thecampaign.org/News/nov02k.htm#survey But even the "People's Republic of Vermont" (as those of us from the rest of New England call it) can't seem to get a "label law" passed. Oregon just tried in their November elections, and the measure failed. But could we put "GM-free" labels on our honey if we wanted to? I'm not sure, but the rules are... ummm... interesting. The US Food and Drug Administration only requires labeling of genetically engineered foods if the food has a significantly different nutritional property, or if a food includes an allergen that consumers would not expect to be present. (This means that almost nothing in the US is required to be labeled as "GM".) More interestingly, the FDA discourages labels like Rumford's. Examples of correct/incorrect "voluntary labeling" under the currently proposed FDA guidelines are given below: "GMO Free" or "Not Genetically Modified" Not FDA recommended. Their rationale is that "Free" implies zero content, which the FDA says is "nearly impossible to verify". (I wonder why that would be "impossible", since it would be much less difficult than the source documentation required for "Organic" labeled food.) The FDA also says that "Genetically Modified" is an "inappropriate" term, in that "all crop varieties have been modified by plant breeders". (Using this sort of reasoning, both I and the dogs at my feet are "Genetically Modified", since we have all been "bred" for desirable traits through generations of overt conscious choices by "breeders". Ooops, so have my bees. So have my rose bushes, my apple trees...) The lesson here is that whoever "controls" the terminology can frame the issues, and control the debate. "We do not use ingredients produced using biotechnology." The FDA does not mind the use of this long-winded phrase, and does not argue that this would be "nearly impossible to verify", which seems to indicate inconsistent (or fuzzy) thinking. I can cope with their being wrong, but can't they at least try to be consistent about it? "This oil is made from soybeans that were not genetically engineered." The FDA doesn't mind this either. Weird, huh? I guess the excuse about "nearly impossible" might come up in regard to soybeans, given the recent "ProdiGene" incident http://www.msnbc.com/news/835455.asp?0dm=C21CN where soybeans, corn, and some unusual unregistered drug testing all recently collided head-on in a Nebraska field with no survivors. "This cantaloupe was not genetically engineered." The FDA thinks that this phrase would be misleading, as it implies that other cantaloupes may be genetically engineered. The FDA says that there are no such cantaloupes on the market. The above makes me laugh. While the FDA's view is that "all crop varieties have been modified by plant breeders", and thus claims that the term "Genetically Modified" could be applied to ALL cantaloupes grown today, they would take issue with someone stating that one of them was not overtly "Genetically Engineered", even when the statement would be 100% true. They forget that I am consistently presented with a wide assortment of fruit (life is good!) and might want to make choices of which fruits to put in my fruit salad based solely upon which are "GM" and which are not without lugging around an encyclopedia of all possible fruit crops and their status vis-a-vis "GM" varieties. And the internet won't help much - wireless access with a Palm Pilot NEVER works in a typical produce section of a grocery. Too much RF from the lights and the cooler compressors. Darn cellphone barely works. You'd have to go over near the windows, or out in the parking lot to "check the fruit". Away from the fruit itself. Life can get complicated sometimes. :) But, the important point for honey would be that for someone to label their honey as "Non-GM", they would have to claim that someone else was selling "GM Honey", which I would suppose would be honey produced from nectar gathered from a "GM" crop, following the terminology used in the European discussions. But I'd bet that contrasting views on even that point exist. "Genetically Engineered" "This product contains cornmeal that was produced using biotechnology." The FDA would allow someone to label food as above if they wanted to, but somehow, I doubt anyone will do so willingly. "This product contains HIGH OLEIC ACID SOYBEAN OIL from soybeans developed using biotechnology to decrease the amount of saturated fat." The part in caps would be mandatory because it indicates a nutritional change. The rest would be voluntary under the proposed guidelines, so you know what parts will and will not start appearing on labels, don't you? (Remember the good old days when the terms "HIGH" and "ACID" in close proximity had only one possible meaning?) If there were a state in the USA with a high population, but negligible agriculture, that state could pass a "label law", and force the issue for all nationally-sold products without taking a self-imposed hit on its own agricultural sector. But there just aren't any. And no one wants to be first, due to the hit that local agricultural producers would take as a result. But it does seem clear that we can put "100% Fat-Free" and "Low Sodium" on our honey labels with a straight face and a clear conscience. That's what I found out in the kitchen today. Its no wonder I can't get around to cleaning up the garage. And wow - there are less than 100 days to March 1st! Time to get that woodenware spruced up! Spring is just around the corner! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:06:53 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: Cave paintings/comb in trees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dee Lusby wrote: "in a big book by Crane yesterday and saw a note about a person in the 16th= century having observed bees in Peru building combs in holes in trees the= same way as bees in Europe .... I'd certainly like to know who was= observing the european like comb by bees in Peru back then." To be able to better judge what the note in Crane's book means, we need to= know the exact wording. From the synopsis Dee gave us, it is not possible= to assume that the comb referred to is European-like. The phrase "the same= way as bees in Europe" could to be referring to either the way they make= comb or the fact they build combs in holes in trees. There are several genera of highly social, comb building, honey making= stingless bees (Family Meliponini) that live in Latin America from Mexico= south as far as Argentina, including Bolivia and other countries bordering= Peru. Many of these choose hollow trees as their preferred nesting site,= and some even have large entrance holes guarded by a cluster of workers,= much as a honey bee colony would. The difference is that, on the whole,= meliponine bees make horizontal comb, although, apparently, there are= exceptions. Matthew Shepherd ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at http://www.xerces.org/ ______________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:54:29 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Help...what are the main issues facing beekeepers today! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry said: > George makes the case that the general public, legislators, and even the > President do not consider bees to be important. Well, I can't tell you what the "public" thinks, and I'm not going to even try to figure out even IF the person currently claiming to be President thinks at all, but I can tell you that our elected represntatives not only apparently understand the issues, but have defined some of the problems in clearer and more compelling terms than anything I have read from any group of beekeepers. Not only does the US Senate have a grasp of the details, but they also have a willingness to take an adversarial tone on our behalf. Here's a quote from "Senate Report 107-156", issued earlier this year: "The Committee is disturbed by proposals submitted in the President's budget request for fiscal year 2003 that would eliminate a number of critical agricultural research projects that have been established through congressional directives over the past 2 years. The only apparent rationale for these reductions by this and previous Administrations is an attitude that research priorities of the Congress have no merit on their face and seem not worthy of, at least, a thoughtful analysis by the Executive Branch in terms of budgetary and subject-matter priorities. In addition, the President is proposing to terminate a number of important Federal research locations, including locations at which honey bee research is conducted. The accidental introduction of varroa and tracheal mites in the United States during the mid-1980's has reduced the once-thriving populations of feral honey bees by more than 80 percent. These bees are necessary for the continued pollination of crops and wild plants. The Committee finds the proposed elimination of honey bee research at three Federal locations, in spite of serious reductions in bee populations and consequences related to pollination, which might adversely affect the world's food supply, extremely short-sighted and based on an unfortunate, and mistaken, assumption by the Executive Branch that all meaningful research must originate with it. The [Senate] Committee directs the Secretary [of Agriculture] to take no action which would reduce research activities proposed for elimination in advance of congressional direction in that regard." I don't think any of us could have written a more concise, in-your-face, absolute rejection of the idea that bee research was anything less than "mission-critical". (When they say "executive branch", they mean Bush, the OMB, and associated lackeys and henchmen.) Given the relatively tiny amount of money at issue, this was an amazingly verbose and surprisingly vitriolic statement from the US Senate. jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Help...what are the main issues facing beekeeperstoday! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: > Been meaning to reply to this thread, and Jerry's mail pushed me to do so! > > Honey bees, are as most concerned individuals realise under many pressures. > > Often the contribution made by these insects via. their pollination activities is quoted. Usually > in recognition of their value in direct pollination of crops consumed by man or domesticated stock. > George Imirie touched on this area. > But also, bees are essential for the maintenance of soil fertility. Just to play devils advocate here - what do you think the soil was like, say, before we imported the little buggers? Methinks you downplay the role of native pollinators too much. Keith ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:17:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Cave Paintings In-Reply-To: <20021121015237.65674.qmail@web12406.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <20021121015237.65674.qmail@web12406.mail.yahoo.com>, Dee Lusby writes >Erik wrote: >bees in >Peru building combs in holes in trees the same way as bees >in Europe. >Dee A. Lusby (This makes me feel better about Eva Crane for >documentation is scattered and few, but glad the above is >in a book she did and now I'd certainly like to know who >was observing the european like comb by bees in Peru back >then) You have made something of a leap into the unknown by the (apparently slight) wording change between the Crane quotation and what you wrote.. The two statements do not actually match up. An observation of *extreme* age of bees building comb in cavities 'the same way as bees in Europe', does NOT actually say that the comb is 'European like'. We don't know anything about the comb in question other than it is constructed in a cavity. Nor are we likely ever to know. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:12:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Small Hive beetle-organic control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by miksahf@AOL.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove most of the quotes of previously posted material. > --- Original message (ID=7B0A4128) (39 lines) --- < > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:02:25 -0500 > From: David Miksa > Subject: Re: Small Hive beetle-organic control > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > > >CAN YOU SHARE WITH US WHAT DO YOUR USE FOR EFFECTIVE IPM PROGRAM FOR > >VARROA CONTROL IN CENTRAL FLORIDA? > > > Dear Med Nasr; > We use 6 mesh screen bottom boards on all colonies except > mating nucs, use some natural size combs, mating nucs are > caged 10 times per year disrupting Varroa cycles, using SMR > and Russian stocks, and our own that don't have susceptibility > to APV. Also we treat colonies with standard approved > chemicals before varroa cycle to high thus preventing huge > populations of Varroa to try to control. Treating with chemicals > only during a very low brood count is also important. > > Sincerely, > David Miksa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:45:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Denise Hubler Subject: honey infusions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I have a question about labeling for honey infusions. Suppose I have an infusion , say of lavender infused honey. I can't call it "lavender honey" can I, because it's not actually from lavender flowers? So would I have to call it lavender infused honey or can I come up with a catchy marketable name? Thank you for any advice. Denise Luna Apiaries ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:38:06 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: maximiliano carvalho Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?dan=E7as_das_abelhas?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sou estudante universit=E1rio e apicultor com 17 colmeias e estou a = fazer um trabalho para a Universidade de Aveiro, em Portugal, sobre o = comportamento animal , cujo animal =E9 a abelha "Apis Melifera = Iberica".Gostaria de saber quantas dan=E7as existem.Tenho conhecimento = que existem 3 mas correm rumores que existem mais.Li algures que existia = uma nova dan=E7a nas abelhas da Indon=E9sia e da Mal=E1sia com o = objectivo de as abelhas circundantes lhes retirarem as varroas, ora, = sendo verdade trata-se de um comportamento apreendido, o que seria = important=EDssimo. Gostaria de um filme, document=E1rio ou extractos = sobre todas ou algumas dan=E7as. Agradecemos resposta at=E9 10 dezembro, = pois =E9 a data limite da entrega do trabalho. Muito Obrigado maximiliano P.S. esta mensagem foi traduzida de Portugu=EAs para Ingl=EAs pelo = programa Translator 7.0 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:19:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: Help...what are the main issues facing beekeeperstoday! In-Reply-To: <3DDC50BF.2040001@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >Just to play devils advocate here - what do you think the soil was like, >say, before we imported the little buggers? Methinks you downplay the >role of native pollinators too much. there is a beautiful collection of letters, Letters from Honeyhill, written by the wife of a beekeeper that describes the soil in Wyoming at the beginning of the 20th century and why the government was encouraging beekeepers in that part of the country. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:37:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bell Teresa Y Civ OC-ALC/MASBC Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_=5BBEE-L=5D_dan=E7as_das_abelhas?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am student university student and apicultor with 17 colmeias and I am it do a work for the University of Aveiro, in Portugal, about the animal behavior, whose animal is the bee "Apis Melifera Iberica". Would Like know as much as dances exist have knowledge that exist 3 but they run rumors that exist more read somewhere that existed a news dances in the bees from the Indonesia and from the Malaya with the objectivo ofThe varroas, now, being truth treats itself of a behavior apprehended, what would be very very important thing. It would like a film, documentary or extractos about everybody or some dances. We thank answer to 10 December, therefore is the date limit from the delivery of the work. A lot Obliged maximiliano P S. this message was translated of Portuguese for English by the program Translator 7.0 -----Original Message----- From: maximiliano carvalho [mailto:maximiliano@AVEIRO-DIGITAL.NET] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:38 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: [BEE-L] danças das abelhas Sou estudante universitário e apicultor com 17 colmeias e estou a fazer um trabalho para a Universidade de Aveiro, em Portugal, sobre o comportamento animal , cujo animal é a abelha "Apis Melifera Iberica".Gostaria de saber quantas danças existem.Tenho conhecimento que existem 3 mas correm rumores que existem mais.Li algures que existia uma nova dança nas abelhas da Indonésia e da Malásia com o objectivo de as abelhas circundantes lhes retirarem as varroas, ora, sendo verdade trata-se de um comportamento apreendido, o que seria importantíssimo. Gostaria de um filme, documentário ou extractos sobre todas ou algumas danças. Agradecemos resposta até 10 dezembro, pois é a data limite da entrega do trabalho. Muito Obrigado maximiliano P.S. esta mensagem foi traduzida de Português para Inglês pelo programa Translator 7.0 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:40:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy & Isa Chase Subject: Re: RE: [BEE-L] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dan=E7as_das_abelhas?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Possessing a functional knowledge of the Portuguese language, the translation of the request for information on bee dances leaves a lot to be desired. What is intriguing is Maximiliano's reference to a new bee dance reported in Indonesia and Malaysia that involves the removal of varroa mites. Is anyone aware of such observations? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:19:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?dan=E7as_das_abelhas?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > reference to a new bee dance reported in > Indonesia and Malaysia that involves the > removal of varroa mites. Is anyone aware > of such observations? Actually, unless there is something new and recent that I have missed, this is not "new". There are some honeybees (I hesitate to use "species" or "races" because I am vague on the recollection and cannot provide references) that exhibit the behavior of shaking (actually it is more like a tremble) to alert their sisters to the fact that they have a varroa mite attached to them. The trembling bee is assisted by her sisters, who sieze upon the mite and dismember it. I have seen films, I recall it was bees sharing the same indiginous area as Varroa j. and I seem to recall hope of selectively breeding for this behavior. It was back in the days when all Varroa were Varroa j. (pre Varroa d.); back in the days when we knew very little about Varroa. Perhaps I saw the film at Apimondia in Vancouver, although that seems late in the time line. I really don't remember where it was, but it was one of the explanations given for why honeybees could coexist with Varroa. That would be a clue that the "species" was Apis cerena. I realize how vague is this post and apologize for that, but perhaps it will give clues to the students who posed the question. Aaron Morris - wondering if senior moments start before 50? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:11:20 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Help...what are the main issues facing beekeeperstoday! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Benson said: > Just to play devils advocate here - what do you think the soil was like, > say, before we imported the little buggers? Methinks you downplay the > role of native pollinators too much. The "native pollinators" are in worse overall shape than honeybees, and the decline in these native pollinators was one of the reasons for the growth of migratory beekeeping as a way of making a living. Monoculture farms and elimination of "weedy patches" through the creation of larger farm plots and use on herbicides/insecticides turned "native pollinators" into "extinct pollinators" in the areas where crops are grown. Why else would a grower pay someone to bring bees on a truck from a thousand miles away? If native pollinators could do the job, beekeepers would not need to "pollinate" so much. Here's a pair of sites that go into more detail: http://www.desertmuseum.org/conservation/fp/ http://www.pollinator.com/ I sent Rick Green an off-list e-mail with the following points, and given the number of posts on this thread, I guess that I should list them here. Fair warning, this is a very USA-centric view. 1) Invasive Exotic Pests and Diseases that have killed nearly all feral hives, and many managed hives, halving the number of hives and beekeepers in less than 20 years. 2) New "time-release" pesticides, that can be carried back to the hive by foragers, killing many more bees than traditional pesticides, which killed only foragers. 3) Newer forms of pesticides, such as "Gaucho", which clearly kill hives, but seem to be difficult to link to bee deaths via existing analysis technology. 4) Genetically modified crops, and the risks posed by these crops when bees are in the area, cross-pollinating. (Inadvertent spreading of GM traits to other plants, risk of creating herbicide-resistant weeds, etc) 5) Protecting the image of honey as a pure product when honey shipped from China is found to be contaminated with antibiotics, and testing of imports is currently spotty, at best. 6) Protecting against the continued introduction of additional exotic invasive pests and diseases when USDA APHIS is unwilling to even prohibit importation of shipments of bees KNOWN to be infested with specific diseases and/or pests, simply because those diseases or pests have been detected in some part of the US at some point in the past. (See my article in the December issues of both ABJ and Bee Culture about this) 7) Attempting to work with an administration that is utterly clueless about (1) through (6) to the point of attempting to de-fund nearly all US federal bee research (see my Nov, 2002 ABJ article about this) 8) Public perception of "bees as scary", combined with the expansion of suburbs into rural areas, resulting in attempts to "ban" beekeeping, in violation of "right to farm" laws on the books in every state. Note that I did NOT list "AHB" as an "issue". It is no longer an issue, as the media scares have died down. AHB is a fact of life in warmer places. It only stays "an issue" as long as people try to make it an issue. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:56:56 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:______Re:_=5BBEE-L=5D_RE:_=5BBEE-L=5D_dan=E7as_das_abel?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?has?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Possessing a functional knowledge of the Portuguese language, the > translation of the request for information on bee dances leaves a lot to > be desired. What is intriguing is Maximiliano's reference to a new bee > dance reported in Indonesia and Malaysia that involves the removal of > varroa mites. Is anyone aware of such observations? It's "old hat", the dance has been around since the time of Chuck Berry! It has been reported several times in the past. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:57:53 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Main issues facing beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Honey bees and Native pollinators. Before honey bees were introduced, I presume in the fairly pristine environment that existed there were many and diverse native pollinators. But as the agricultural revolution rolled over the land and irrevocably altered most in its path, natural pollinators were displaced out of large swaths of tilled land. Add to this, the constant application of pesticides which ate into remaining populations, and the need for high levels of pollination at condensed and specific periods. The result is that natural populations of native pollinating insects are unable to cope. The planting of thousands of hectares with monoculture has reduced the agricultural system to a dependency on an artificially supported insect species - Apis mellifera (L.) In the absence of colonies of these bees - a certain percentage of required pollination by native pollinators would take place - that is granted! But, a critical short fall would be present - from which dependent agricultural practices would not be able to supply our needs. Even when other " more efficient pollinators" attuned to a particular task are employed (such as the use of leaf cutters in Alfalfa pollination) - they are still unable to replace the honey bee in the overall picture. Native pollinators are essential - maintaining bio diversity levels, but at present, have little strategic role that is comparable to our honey bees. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:13:23 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rossy Castillo Orozco Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:______=5BBEE-L=5D_dan=E7as_das_abelhas?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi:=20 Aaron Morris says: "There are some honeybees (I hesitate to use "species" or "races" because I am vague on the recollection and cannot provide references) that exhibit the behavior of shaking (actually it is more = like a tremble) to alert their sisters to the fact that they have a = varroa mite attached to them. The trembling bee is assisted by her = sisters, who sieze upon the mite and dismember it. " It is true: The specie is Apis Cerana and is the original host of Varroa .They are = less injured with varroa because they have a shorter development period. = On the other hand Varroa only infests drones brood and finally A.Cerana = workers show a special cleaning or grooming behavior and can rid their = bodies of the mites, they groom themselves and other workers biting and = killing the mites and expulsing them of the hive. I think there is some confusion related to the dances and the dislodge = of the mites, they are two different things, perhaps the confusion is = because the different species of Apis make different dances and in = different places of the nest,and this two behaviors are not related. Rossy Castillo rossybee@ctcinternet.cl=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:12:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: honey bees and native pollinators Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, > Honey bees and Native pollinators. As a person which keeps both I will give an opinion. > The result is that natural populations of native pollinating insects are unable to cope. I agree with Peter on his evaluation but in certain areas of the U.S.( Wash,. Utah and Oregon) native bees do wonderful while in others the native bees are disappearing (Southern U.S.). > > Even when other " more efficient pollinators" attuned to a particular task are employed (such as the use of leaf cutters in Alfalfa pollination) - they are still unable to replace the honey bee in the overall picture. Actually the Alfalfa leaf cutter has displaced the honey bee in most U.S. areas *for commercial Alfalfa seed production* (source USDA Utah, USA.). However most Alfalfa hay growers want honey bees on their fields because they can go longer without redrilling in the field but not if they have to pay to get the bee hives. . Most honey Midwest honey producers prefer Clover fields to Alfalfa for honey production. Why? Because Alfalfa can be sprayed a couple times. Clover fields are never sprayed. In the Southwest the main crops are from irrigated Alfalfa & cotton. Both make large crops of honey because there is little else for the bees to work *but* risky business when you factor in sprays. A hive sprayed at the start of a honey season is out for the year. A fact the USDA has never wanted to reinburse for.Only replacing the bees themselves issimply not enough. > Native pollinators are essential - maintaining bio diversity levels, but at >present, have little strategic role that is comparable to our honey bees. So far Peter is correct *but* many researchers at the USDA lab in Utah believe the situation will change in the future. Could a beekeeper with a pickup load of solitary bees pollinate the same orchard as a truck load of honey bees? Research sent to me by researchers say yes (in theory on paper). I am going to be very honest about my findings concerning Osmia lignaria. I am four years into the experiment. I find that although I put out the nesting sites ( five sixteenth reeds) that Osmia L. prefers beetle holes in trees. I suspected as much last year so this spring I simply did not put Osmia L. in the orchard at king bloom. The orchard was still full of both male & female Osmia L. proving to me my hypothesis was correct. Those Osmia L. could only have came from tree nesting sites. I was told by the USDA of Utah that I would end up with a triple fold increase in bees each season. I did at first but soon noticed less and less came back to nest in the tubes (expensive) I provided. Many of the solitary bees decided to simply nest in the trees. I actually think it's pretty neat I have helped get the native bee going again in my area but see a problem with getting enough Osmia to do serious pollination with. My experiment started with only a hundred live females from Utah/ Oregon. Only a experiment. I at present keep far more Osmia L. than the original 100 females *but* I do not keep the number of Osmia L I should have had according to my estimates for this time. Maybe another Osmia .L. raiser can show me the error of my ways ? Comments? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:02:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Niagara Falls Conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a reminder: The joint meeting in Niagara Falls is only a bit over a week away now: December 4th for most of us, although the professional groups and execs will be in conference before that. The Canadian Honey Council site is the best source of detailed info. See http://www.honeycouncil.ca/meetings.html#meet and http://www.honeycouncil.ca/meetings.html#agenda for the agenda. The hotel rates are cheap -- and it's a good hotel, too! The location is inspirational. Here are some thumbnails from my visit last fall: http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/images/010210b_005_small1.jpg http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/images/010210_009_small.jpg http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/images/010210b_001_small.jpg http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/images/010210_017_small.jpg Here are the corresponding larger images, and yes, those are bees. http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/images/010210b_005.jpg http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/images/010210_009.jpg http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/images/010210b_001.jpg http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/images/010210_017.jpg I'll see you there. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:44:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: small hive beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Small hive beetles DO NOT spend all their time in bee hives. Simply destroying the hives will not eliminate a large infestation of small hive beetle from the area. The following advice from the powers that be in Australia. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/11/11/1036308633481.htm The cost estimate is 6 million (sure to cost twice the amount in the end). Quote from article by Dr. Ben Oldroyal: "A specialist in bees at Sidney U. Dr. Ben Oldroyal , has some simple advice about the idea : FORGET ABOUT IT" I have the same advice about the idea! Dumb idea and will not work! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. I suspect by now varroa exists in Australia (my opinion). As long as Austraila has sea ports the introduction of varroa remains realistic as most swarms in the world carry varroa. We also know that the small hive beetle travels in swarms of bees (David Westervelt of the Forida bee inspection service). Could not varroa have been introduced with the same swarm that brought the small hive beetle to Australia? The most logical source of introduction of the shb was from a swarm off a ship in a port ( unnamed USDA source commenting on the introduction of SHb into Australia to Bob Harrison). In my opinion since SHb is found most times in hives with a varroa problem the likelyhood of varroa also being in a swarm in which the SHB was traveling is about 95 to 99%. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:05:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: 'New bee dance' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roy Page FRES who must now be well into his nineties told me that in his teaching days one of his students ( I guess in the 50s) noticed a shaking dance such as Aaron describes. From the reactions of other bees the message was "I have this itch between my shoulder blades where I can't reach. Can you scratch it for me please?" ie an invitation to groom. This was in the UK decades before varroa appeared here. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:23:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Re: small hive beetle Pardon my ignorance, however, I have read extensively read about the SHB but have never seen a photo of one; especially realative to the bee itself. Does anyone know where there might be photos of these pests. Also, are SHB's a pest that Beekeepers in Canada have to worry about, more specifically in Vancouver, BC? Cheers, Mark Walker. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:03:09 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: honey bees and native pollinators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Good to get info. from the field as such - thanks. Question: Of the leaf cutters that "go native", what are the chances that they survive in the orchard areas, presuming that such areas are subjected to spraying regimes after the removal of dedicated pollinators? Have populations of Osmia L. increased in the area? Also, what experiences have any group members had on using this bee for pollination of blueberry fields? >From my very restricted observations - theory states one thing and practice shows an other. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:36:02 +1100 Reply-To: Bindaree Bee Supplies Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bindaree Bee Supplies Organization: Bindaree Bee Supplies Subject: Picture of SHB relative to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark Walker asked for the picture above. See the Australian CSIRO site: http://www.csiro.au/index.asp?type=3DmediaRelease&id=3DPrbees2 Regards Richard Johnston Bindaree Bee Supplies http://www.bindaree.com.au 61 2 6281 2111 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:56:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: HarrisonRW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: small hive beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a picture of the small hive beetle go to www.google.com and type in small hive beetle in the search block and then click on images. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:16:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James J. Grefig" Subject: Overwintering on Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm an old retired actuary who took up beekeeping three years ago. I have also spent a number of years on the Westchester County (NY) pest management committee and know that it is a violation of federal law to use a pesticide in a manner other than as directed by the label. While not a chemist nor a biologist it seems to me that the mites that survive in a hive that is over wintered with Apistan will be the mites that are resistant (or most resistant) to fluvalinate. As the survivors breed they will pass on their resistant genes. Is this overly simplistic? But here is something to consider. My daughter keeps bees in an area of New York State where the mites are resistant to fluvalinate. In my area (lower Hudson Valley) fluvalinate still works. While I would not do what I'm proposing, why not transport my mites to her area and let them interbreed? If we have bred resistance into the mites in some areas why not breed susceptibility to fluvalinate into resistant mite populations? Jim Grefig Crugers, NY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:04:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: honey bees and native pollinators Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Of the leaf cutters that "go native", what are the chances that they survive in the orchard areas, presuming that such areas are subjected to spraying regimes after the removal of dedicated pollinators? I do not raise leaf cutters but mason bees. I do not know if escaped Alfalfa leaf cutter bees would survive in a area of seed Alfalfa being sprayed or even if they would nest elsewhere. I doubt the mason bee would survive. Even hives of bees suffer and sometimes die when close to the typical commercial orchard. I do not use pesticides in my small orchard and there are no large orchards for miles so my *go native* mason bees seem to be doing great. > > Have populations of Osmia L. increased in the area? I have always seen Osima L. in our area. Their numbers have really increased according to the numbers I have seen last spring in my orchard . I have got a bee yard about 10 miles away with a abandoned one acre apple orchard (all young trees). I have seen Osmia L. on the blossoms ever since I have had the yard. The Osima L. work the blossoms along with honey bees but fly earlier and even in light rain. Osmia L. (mason bee) uses its whole body to polinate like the bumble bee. Researchers say one orchard mason bee can do the same polination of 100 honey bees (USDA , Utah). Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:40:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "James J. Grefig" > While not a chemist nor a biologist it seems to me that the mites that > survive in a hive that is over wintered with Apistan will be the mites > that are resistant (or most resistant) to fluvalinate. As the survivors > breed they will pass on their resistant genes. Is this overly simplistic? Hi James: This does seem obvious. However, if you treat as per the label, the survivors will also be the ones that are resistant and will pass on their resistant genes. I don't see why leaving the strips on over winter would make any difference whatsoever in the development of resistance. Best regards Donald Aitken --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.422 / Virus Database: 237 - Release Date: 20/11/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:18:13 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Which of the following is similar to overwintering with Apistan strips in one's hives? a) Pulling your ripcord with your back towards the ground rather than the sky. b) Playing "Russian roulette" with an automatic rather than a revolver. c) Bungee-jumping with clothesline. d) Ice-climbing in loafers. e) Cave diving with only one flashlight between two divers. f) Entering the Paris-Dakar Rally with no spare tires. g) All of the above The answer is (g). James Grefig said: >> While not a chemist nor a biologist it seems to me that the mites that >> survive in a hive that is over wintered with Apistan will be the mites >> that are resistant (or most resistant) to fluvalinate. As the survivors >> breed they will pass on their resistant genes. Is this overly simplistic? Yes. It is also wrong. Read on for why. Donald Aitken replied: > This does seem obvious. However, if you treat as per the label, the > survivors will also be the ones that are resistant and will pass on their > resistant genes. I don't see why leaving the strips on over winter would > make any difference whatsoever in the development of resistance. This question was well addressed by competent chemists and biologists nearly a decade ago. The short answer from the best and brightest is "no". Don't do it. Don't speculate about it. Don't theorize. Don't experiment. Just follow the instructions, and admit to yourself that you are NOT a chemist, NOT a biologist, and NOT a beekeeper who is going to be the cause of a problem for other beekeepers who have nearby apiaries. Back in 1995 a very complete discussion of this very point was held on this mailing list. The essential facts were given in this message. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9509&L=bee-l&P=R7542&D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1 Which I will paste below, just to insure that it can be read by all who might have any remaining questions on this point. So go get those strips out. ====================================================== Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter Apis--Apicultural Information and Issues (ISSN 0889-3764) Volume 13, Number 2, February 1995 Copyright (c) 1995 M.T. Sanford "All Rights Reserved" ... FLUVALINATE--USE IT RIGHT OR LOSE IT! It is now official! Resistance to fluvalinate, the active ingredient in Apistan(R), has been found in Varroa mites. This was published in the February 1995 issue of Bee Culture (Vol. 123, No. 2, pp. 80-81) in "9th International Congress of Acarology," by E. Sugden, K. Williams and D. Sammataro. According to these authors: "The most ominous report came from Dr. Roberto Nannelli of Italy. He has found areas where Varroa mites are over 90 percent fluvalinate- resistant, and his claims have been confirmed by German sci- entists." Oscar Coindreau, representative of Sandoz Agro, the company that makes Apistan(R), also verified this report at the re- cent meeting of the American Beekeeping Federation in Austin, TX. He indicated that resistance was patchy in Italy, but in certain areas, Apistan(R) provided no control. And it doesn't take much resistance before Apistan(R) loses its effectiveness, according to Mr. Coindreau, because any- thing less than 99 percent control, is in reality, no con- trol. That's because mite populations tend to bounce back so readily in populous bee colonies. All investigators indicate that the cause of this resistance is not Apistan(R), but beekeepers' misuse of other formu- lations of fluvalinate. In Europe the product is called Klartan(R) and in the United States, Mavrik(R). All agree the use of these chemical products soaked into wooden strips, cardboard, paper towels, or in some cases, simply sprayed into colonies, is a certain recipe for developing resistant Varroa mites. Although considered "ominous" in Europe, in the United States resistant mites mean disaster. That's because most other countries of the world have alternative treatments that are legal. According to the authors of the article: "In general, European scientists felt that the best way to slow development of resistance in the mites is to have at least two types of treatment which could be applied alter- nately." This advice is mirrored in many other situations where possible resistance in organisms to pesticides and an- tibiotics exists (see "When Bugs Fight Back," APIS, Vol. 12, No. 11, November 1994, which follows this article). It turns out that some European countries even have three Varroa mite treatments to turn to, rotating Apistan(R) with formic acid and amitraz. In contrast to those in Europe, United States beekeepers have only one legal treatment, Apistan(R). The only other candidate treatment at the moment in the United States is formic acid. Although generally effective, there can be many complications in using this product, including, queen and worker loss even when applied correctly. It is also caustic, one reason it is not looked on favorably by regula- tory officials. According to one German researcher, efforts need to be increased to develop a formic acid-based product that is safe and foolproof, and can be registered quickly. The authors of the article, therefore, conclude: "It may not be a question of 'if' but only 'when and where' the first super-Varroa mites will show up in North America. This should serve a warning to all beekeepers to use control methods only as directed on their labels." The best way to ensure killing as many mites as possible without developing super Varroa resistant to fluvalinate is to use Apistan(R) right and only once. This philosophy, along with proper application recommendations, was published in the fall 1994, Apiculture Newsletter, published by the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, Guelph, Ontario, Canada. Here is what the authors (G. Grant, and M. Nasr, in consultation with L. Goczan of Sandoz Agro Canada) say in their article "Apistan Strips - Use'em Right, Use'em once!": "Apistan(R) is a plastic strip that contains a miticide, fluvalinate. Fluvalinate is a contact poison that kills Varroa mite. But Varroa mites must contact the right dose before they die. "Fluvalinate does not mix with water, but it does mix well with oils and waxes. As bees walk over the strip, the fluvalinate moves into the oils found on the surface of their bodies. When bees contact each other in the hive, the miticide is passed on. In a matter of hours all the bees in the hive are covered with fluvalinate. Adult mites that contact these bees will be killed by the miticide. "As fluvalinate is picked up from the surface of the strip the concentration drops. More fluvalinate then moves out from the center of the strip to the outside surface. The strip is designed to deliver the correct amount of miticide to the surface over the 42-day treatment period. "Eventually most of the fluvalinate is removed from the strip -- the strip is spent. There is no longer enough miticide left in the strip to kill Varroa mites.... "Why a 42-day treatment period? Worker bees take 21 days to develop from egg to adult. Drones need up to 24 days to de- velop. By leaving the strips in the hive for 42 days or two worker bee generations, all adult mites and their matured offspring will be exposed to the miticide. Remember, the mite must contact the fluvalinate in order to be killed. Mites in capped brood cells escape exposure until they emerge from the cell with the adult bee. "Why not leave strips in over winter? Because two potential problems might occur: 1. Residues- fluvalinate mixes with oils and waxes. Leav- ing strips in over winter might result in a build up of residues in the wax. 2. Resistance- mites are not equally susceptible to fluvalinate. Leaving mites in contact with spent strips may kill the most susceptible mites, leaving the more resistant mites to reproduce in their place." "Use one (1) strip for every five (5) frames covered by bees in brood boxes. Some strong hives may need three strips, some weak hives will only need one. Place strips down be- tween the frames so that they contact each side of the clus- ter. The average hive will likely need two. "Can Apistan strips be reused? No, with one exception. There is no sure way of knowing if enough fluvalinate re- mains in a strip to guarantee that it will work a second time. "The exception: If the strip was used once, only for three days to detect mites, and if the strip was then stored prop- erly between use, you might reuse the strip. You might re- use it for either detecting mites for a 3-day period or for one 42-day treatment. "Store strips in a cool, dry and dark location wrapped in aluminum foil in an air-tight bag. Avoid direct sunlight. Don't store strips near chemicals or pesticides. Don't store strips where they could contaminate food, feed or wa- ter. "In Ontario, Apistan(R) is registered as a Schedule 3 pesti- cide. As with other 'homeowner' products, strips are ap- proved for disposal in municipal landfills. Some municipalities have their own special requirements for dis- posal of Schedule 3 pesticides." In the United States, the instructions on the label are the law. They must be followed, even if varying from what the authors say in the above article or other writings on the subject. In addition, when applying Apistan(R), or any reg- istered chemical, the person must have in his possession a copy of the label. Thus, when it comes to Apistan(R), the old adage, "use it or lose it," must be modified. If U.S. beekeepers are to maxi- mize the utility of the one legal and effective treatment they have for Varroa, what many consider the most dangerous organism affecting beekeeping today, they must "use it right or lose it." >---------------------< Jerry Worrell of Dunkirk, MD posted the following from the newsletter of the Pierce County Beekeepers Association, concerning the reuse of Apistan strips. Those who have reused Apistan strips in the past may want to rethink that strategy. Reuse of Apistan Several persons have reported the reuse of Apistan after some modification of the surface of the strip. Testing of this method produced the following results: * New Strips = 809 ug of fluvalinate on surface * Visibly clean strips after 45 days of use = 201 ug (24.8%) * Slightly contaminated strips after 45 days = 142 ug (17.6%) * After 45 days: brushed with electric wire wheel = 110 ug (13.6%) * After 45 days: planed on each side of strip = 70 ug (8.7%) * After 6 months use (over winter) = 38 ug (4.7%) Obviously using the strips beyond the 45 days required on the product label significantly reduces the amount of chemi- cal available to kill mites. Altering the surface of the strips actually reduced the amount of chemical available. Having low, sub-lethal levels of chemical in the presence of an organism raises the opportunity for the development of resistance to the product. Any reuse of Apistan is prohib- ited by the label and now we know it is counter productive and may produce Varroa resistance to fluvalinate. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:56:58 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan >I don't see why leaving the strips on over winter would >make any difference whatsoever in the development of resistance. >Donald Aitken Mites will be exposed to lower levels of fluvalinate as the strips 'wear out'. Many of these mites will not be killed and will then develop resistance. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:31:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This does seem obvious. However, if you treat as per the label, the > survivors will also be the ones that are resistant and will pass on their > resistant genes. I don't see why leaving the strips on over winter would > make any difference whatsoever in the development of resistance. What we have always been told by makers of chemical strips for treating varroa mites: There is always a small amount of chemical left in a strip. Not enough to use the strip again for the next treatment period. If you leave the strip in longer than the label treatment time it serves no purpose and exposes the varroa to very low levels of chemical which helps build resistance. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:46:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Gurr Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan The message <001801c29445$2a21d5f0$2ed3ad8e@HAL> from Donald Aitken contains these words: > From: "James J. Grefig" > > While not a chemist nor a biologist it seems to me that the mites that > > survive in a hive that is over wintered with Apistan will be the mites > > that are resistant (or most resistant) to fluvalinate. As the survivors > > breed they will pass on their resistant genes. Is this overly simplistic? > This does seem obvious. However, if you treat as per the label, the > survivors will also be the ones that are resistant and will pass on their > resistant genes. I don't see why leaving the strips on over winter would > make any difference whatsoever in the development of resistance. We need to get back to basics on this and ask a few fundamental questions. When fluvalinate was first introduced for the control of varroa, it was only in the region of 96% effective. What of the other 4%? Did they already have a tolerance (I prefer this to `resistance') to fluvalinate or was it quite simply that 4% of the bees in the hive did not come into contact with the Apistan strips? If 4% of the mites already had a tolerance to fluvalinate, then they would survive to breed - no matter how long the Apistan strips were left in the hive. However, if the 4% of mites remaining had survived because they simply had not come into contact with the fluvalinate, then their descendants would remain susceptible and a 96% kill could be expected every year - unless we train them to become tolerant by leaving in the Apistan strips longer than recommended. Apistan strips release fluvalinate in reducing amounts over time as the active ingredient is used up and eventually the amount of fluvalinate released will be insufficient to kill the mites and they will become tolerant to it. I am fortunate to live in a part of the UK which is still free of the mite and we have had 10 years in which to prepare our defences. When the mite arrives (as it inevitably must), I doubt very much that Bayvarol or Apistan will feature in our control measures. I have been adding copper gluconate to syrup for the last two years as a prophylactic and will probably continue to use this together with a package of other more natural control measures when the mite arrives. Phil. (Highlands of Scotland) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:37:22 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Marshall Subject: Re: small hive beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison Could you please check the address that you have given us for some reason the address seems wrong? It would make good reading. Are you suggesting that the aussies are going for elimination of SHB? Jonathan Marshall ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 4:44 AM Subject: [BEE-L] small hive beetle > Hello All, > Small hive beetles DO NOT spend all their time in bee hives. Simply > destroying the hives will not eliminate a large infestation of small hive > beetle from the area. > The following advice from the powers that be in Australia. > > http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/11/11/1036308633481.htm > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:57:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Donald Wrote: > ... However, if you treat as per the label, the > survivors will also be the ones that are resistant and will pass on their > resistant genes. I don't see why leaving the strips on over winter would > make any difference whatsoever in the development of resistance. > I may be incorrect in this analysis, but I believe that the idea behind limited application is to deliberately allow *some* mites to remain untreated (e.g. those emerging from capped cells after treatment is removed). This ensures that the gene pool retains significant numbers of mites which are *not* resistant. Otherwise, the only mites to survive would be those which have proven resistance. In a short time, these genes would be reinforced by breeding with other resistant mites, ad infinitum. This concept is intrinsic to current understanding of limited use of pesticides. When GM food crops which produce BT are planted, farmers are advised to plant non-GMO "trap" crops to ensure the survival of significant numbers of non-resistant pests, which will breed with those that may have resistance, keeping the resistance genes diluted, and keeping the pesticide effective. I guess it's wise to follow the directions. Todd. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:08:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James J. Grefig wrote: >But here is something to consider. My daughter keeps bees in an area >of New York State where the mites are resistant to fluvalinate. In my >area (lower Hudson Valley) fluvalinate still works. While I would not >do what I'm proposing, why not transport my mites to her area and let >them interbreed? If we have bred resistance into the mites in some >areas why not breed susceptibility to fluvalinate into resistant >mite populations? > Simple answer is that if you have mites, no matter resistant or not, you will have to treat or you will eventually lose your hives. You cannot afford to start a mite breeding program of a couple of years to get to the state you envision. By then, you will have dead mites and bees. If you mix the mites/bees and treat, you kill off the mites you brought in and the resistant ones are still there, so nothing has changed. It has been shown that if you treat with another, different method for a couple of years, Apistan works again. So something like an Oxalic/Formic/thymol/etc then Apistan rotation will accomplish what you are looking for. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:26:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Several folks have posted comments in this thread which don't make biological sense. The example below is from Phil but is very similar to others. Phil wrote in part: "Apistan strips release fluvalinate in reducing amounts over time as the active ingredient is used up and eventually the amount of fluvalinate released will be insufficient to kill the mites and they will become tolerant to it." This is a very basic misunderstanding of the development of resistance to a treatment. First and foremost for selection to occur some of the population ( the mites in this case ) have to be killed. If there is not enough treatment material to kill the mites there is no selection for resistance because they all live. You have to kill some of the mites to select those that are able to tolerate the treatment in order to select for resistance. The greater the percent of the population you kill, the faster you are selecting for resistance ( stronger selection pressure ). It is like breeding bees to produce more honey: to make progress in breeding you have to select the colonies with the most productive ( in terms of honey ) hives to breed from and cull those that don't produce as much honey. Any use of a mite treatment selects for resistance to that treatment. You would like to have a period of time when the mites are not exposed to the treatment ( no selection ) to help slow the development of resistance to the treatment. This is the logic of relatively short treatment periods but with treatments that are absorbed into the beeswax we can't remove the treatment by simply removing the strips. I think this is why we are seeing resistance developing to treatments that absorb into the beeswax like fluvalinate and coumaphos but don't see such resistance to things like organic acids that don't absorb into the wax. I recall a few years back an impassioned "sermon" from Dr Bill Wilson now retired from USDA regarding the manufacturers blaming beekeepers for the emergence of resistance to fluvalinate when beekeepers were not given any other treatment options and everywhere in the world where fluvalinate was used as the only or main treatment for about 10 years the result was fluvalinate resistant varroa mites. Hope this helps. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 06:57:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > Which of the following is similar to overwintering with Apistan strips in one's hives?... This question was well addressed by competent chemists and biologists nearly a decade ago... Back in 1995 a very complete discussion of this very point was held on this mailing list. The essential facts were given in this message. Which I will paste below, just to insure that it can be read by all who might have any remaining questions on this point. < < < In spite of dismissive anologies and voluminous, albeit selective quotes from a long-dead previous discussion, the matter at hand has been debated and examined here on this list -- and elsewhere -- in much more depth, and in light of more information since then, and we all know more than we did then. For one thing, although the notion was not popular at the time, it was known *from the start* by scientists and anyone who would listen, that Apistan(r) resistance would develop with high probability somewhere -- probably in a southern region -- within 10 years of introduction of Apistan(r), regardless of illegal treatments or abuse. It is just the nature of the method.. Granted, application not according to label -- deliberate or accidental -- and the application of other closely related pesticides in place of, or along with, Apistan(r), did not help matters any and could have sped the development of resistance a bit, but the end result was known and the timeframe predicted from the start. As for leaving the strips in over winter, the word "winter' has different meanings in the south and in the far northern regions of the continent. What is not reasonable in the southern US, (and, yes, I have seen hives on the California/Mexico border with BOTH Apistan and coumophos strips in January) *may* be reasonable in Canadian regions where the bees retreat from the upper brood box for months, then return to raise brood in early spring. I might also mention to anyone who has never run a commercial outfit or hired staff, that it is not at all uncommon to disassemble a hive and find a strip that has broken and/or slipped down (bad design) or simply been missed by staff when removing strips. It is just a fact of life that nothing like this is cut and dried. I am not advocating this leaving strips in over winter, since I know a better and more effective time to apply the strips, but I have heard the practice considered reasonable by persons who hold great respect in our industry. In fact, some respectable research has recently (is currently?) been taking place on this very practice. I hope we can discuss these topics without resorting to ridicule or citing long-dead arguments. The practice discussed may still be inadvisable, but we need to consider it levelly Things have changed, and will continue to change. We need to stay on top of new ways of thinking. These matters are never settled forever. IMO, anyhow. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:34:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: small hive beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I left the l off the html. Sorry for the inconvenience. I believe will work now. "Bid to wipe out Sidney's bees" > http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/11/11/1036308633481.html Bob Ps. when always in a hurry one tends to miss a small detail every once in a while! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:13:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Overwintering of Apistan Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, I am so pleased about the response given to this subject that I no longer have to stand on my soapbox, shout and yell at the "sinful" for 3 hours for leaving Apistan strips in a colony for over 56 days. I want to THANK everyone who helped, and particularly those like Jim Fischer and Blane White who wrote so much scientific information. THANKS, BEEKEEPERS! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:53:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Retail prices In-Reply-To: <40DA930B.728E5AD0.0075E3B1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds low for US prices. I've charged $4/lb retail for 3 years and sold all I have each year. In our local food coop, "raw honey" in bulk is $2/lb (unchanged for over 20 years, same man), while on the shelf 1 lb is $6.19 (12.19 for 2 lb) from one producer and 4.50-5.00 from other producers. Some other local producers charge from $3 to $4, but most are at $4 this year (up from last year). Creamed or infused honey, in 12 oz hex jars sells for $5 locally and I've never had a problem selling all I have (nor have others I have talked to). Prices in grocery stores for non-local honey is lower and one local "packer" (actually, not a producer or a packer, but who has honey "packed for" his label does sell sort of in-between in price -- but still at about $4/lb for several "varieties" of honey that are visibly undifferentiated. (clover, sourwood and wildflower all identical in color and viscosity, while all true wildflower in the area is much darker and most sourwood does not look like clover). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:20:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Labeling Honey As "Non-GM"? Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <01C291C6.DACA0520.jfischer@supercollider.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You would be suprised at the degree to which genetically modified crops have invaded the US market. With over 20 years of unregulated and unwatched growth, it would be very difficult in most parts of the US to label your honey as "not genetically modified". When I checked the current list of trees available through our state forestery department (for reforesting and xmas tree farms), they even list the only black walnut tree variety available as genetically modified (along with several others in the catalog) -- I have many black walnuts growing here naturally and no pest problems, large crops, etc (although, of course, difficult to remove). It is hard to imagine what genetic modification was necessary for black walnuts and harder to understand why that is the only choice being distributed. With no real control over the GM status of crops and trees planted within the 3-5 mile radius from the house (which includes several apple orchards, few field crops but some lumber areas), even in a non-traditional agricultural area, I could not assure the public my honey contained no GM-modified nectar or pollen (esp if anyone close by grows any kind of corn). Karen Oland TN, USA > -----Original Message----- > From: James Fischer > It also made me stop and think - what COULD possibly be "GM" in > baking powder? As it turns out, there is some corn starch in baking > powder, and I guess the "Starlink" corn incident prompted the Rumford > people to take matters into their own hands. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:10:00 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Wrote > The following advice from the powers that be in Australia. I think you need to find out who the "powers that be" are in Australia. > Ps. I suspect by now varroa exists in Australia (my opinion). Glad to see we have some expert opinion being given based on the facts about all that went on. For those who want to know it has been decided not to attempt eradication. We now have to move into a phase of control and to that end we are seeking funding from our Federal Government to do some research. Anyone who wants to know "the facts" and not some opinion that is based on some inaccurate newspaper reports, let me know and I will answer your questions. After all, I am not like some papers and let the facts get in the way of a good story. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:19:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Re: Retail prices I too packaged our predominately "black berry" honey in 12oz. hex jars and have sold out the crop at $5.00 each. Marketed primarily at a farm market and several craft fairs. The last of the marketable product should sell this weekend (approx. 100 jars) at a seniors home craft fair. Probably could've charged more! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:27:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Glad to see we have some expert opinion being given based on the facts about all that went on. The facts are easy to understand. Your country has small hive beetle and small hive beetle are spread in packages of bees. Packages from the southern U.S.is the way Missouri got the small hive beetle. Not from our migratory beekeepers. Varroa will be in every part of the world in the near future. Nothing can stop the spread. The most logical method of introduction is seaports of which Australia has. I am sure any bee researcher you ask would point to your seaports as the method of introduction. Three of our southern seaports have been linked to our pest introductions. SHB and varroa travel together in swarms. Every place SHB is today varroa exists. If your SHB problem came from a swarm off a ship chances are varroa was in the swarm also. Depopulating hives to eliminate tracheal mites, varroa and SHB has not worked any place in the world depopulation has been tried. Glad those making the decisions made the correct decision. Many beekeepers on BEE-L are very knowledgeable on the small hive beetle problems in the U.S. and willing to share information if you need information or ideas. The scope of SHb problems in your country remains to be seen. Perhaps (unlike the U.S.) SHB will only be a minor pest in Australia. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:23:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Farber Subject: Fw: United Kingdom Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ian Farber=20 To: BEE-L=20 Cc: Ian Farber=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 11:14 AM Subject: United Kingdom Beekeepers I would like to contact and then perhaps visit with a beekeeper in the = city of London and/or in the area of Salisbury, Winchester, or = Wiltshire or surrounding area between about Dec. 18 and Jan.2. Please respond off line to: Ian_Farber@telus.net I have 30 colonies in British Columbia, Canada. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:54:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle In-Reply-To: <000c01c2954f$89b9b7c0$5aac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit True. However, spread to eastern TN, western TN (approx 400 miles away) and then to western KY can be traced to ONE migratory beekeeper who will not treat and keeps moving his bees -- first from a known infested area in GA, to outside Chattanooga, TN, then to the far western end of TN. Had he treated when the beetle was first identified in his TN hives, the beetles would not (in all likelihood) be in the western end of TN and KY (where it is already causing losses). Better, had he not moved infected hives from GA (in violation of state law, but with no real punishment defined), the entire state might still be clear. Or at least, have a few more years before the beetle spread naturally. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Harrison > > > Glad to see we have some expert opinion being given based on the facts > about all that went on. > > The facts are easy to understand. Your country has small hive beetle and > small hive beetle are spread in packages of bees. Packages from > the southern > U.S.is the way Missouri got the small hive beetle. Not from our migratory > beekeepers. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:41:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However, spread to eastern TN, western TN (approx. 400 miles away) and then to western KY can be traced to ONE migratory beekeeper who will not treat and keeps moving his bees -- first from a known infested area in GA, to outside Chattanooga, TN, then to the far western end of TN. Missouri did not get the beetle from our migratory beekeepers but sure other states may have gotten their shb problems from migratory beekeepers. > Had he treated when the beetle was first identified in his TN hives, the > beetles would not (in all likelihood) be in the western end of TN and KY (where it is already causing losses). TN and KY were in the projected path of the SHB. Was bound to happen. I doubt if treatment of the migratory beekeepers hives would have solved the problem. SHB is similar to varroa in that once you get both they are with you forever. Better, had he not moved infected hives from GA (in violation of state >law, but with no real punishment defined), the entire state might still be >clear. Or at least, have a few more years before the beetle spread >naturally. It would be impossible to certify a semi load of bees coming from a known area of shb to be small hive beetle free. Hell the inspection service can't even keep the SHb out of packages. Temporary quarantines were set up at times but movement of bees with beetles has never been stopped to my knowledge. The USDA sees the spread of the small hive beetle as unstoppable. The hobby beekeepers in TN and KY might as you say have had a few more years before infestation but the need for pollination won out and the bee hives were released to move into orchards. On one end you have got a grower which will not get a crop and possibly go bankrupt without pollination. On the other end you have got a beekeeper with bees which possibly carry the shb. The USDA does not see a way to stop the spread of the SHB (nor do I). The beekeeper is given a permit to go pollinate. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:27:21 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said, about "overwintering" Apistan strips: > it was known *from the start* by scientists and anyone who would > listen, that Apistan(r) resistance would develop with high probability > somewhere -- But isn't interesting that we've yet to see menthol-resistant tracheal mites, and yet to see "resistance" to Fumadil crop up even though both have been in use for quite some time on life forms with much quicker life-cycles than varroa mites? Might it be that the subset of beekeepers who use these two (highly under-rated) treatments are also the subset of beekeepers who tend to not only read and follow label instructions, but use "treatments" only when there is an actual need to treat? Or is some form of magic at work in our beehives? > What is not reasonable in the southern US, (and, yes, I have > seen hives on the California/Mexico border with BOTH Apistan and > coumophos strips in January) *may* be reasonable in Canadian regions > where the bees retreat from the upper brood box for months, then return > to raise brood in early spring. Perhaps Canadian bees are more predictable than others in this regard, but I submit that most beekeepers in most locations cannot predict if their bees will "retreat" upwards or downwards within the hive, and suggest that there is just as much chance that clustering will take place adjacent to the strips as not. > I might also mention to anyone who has never run a commercial outfit or > hired staff, that it is not at all uncommon to disassemble a hive and > find a strip that has broken and/or slipped down (bad design) or simply > been missed by staff when removing strips. It is just a fact of life > that nothing like this is cut and dried. One would expect that having a "commercial outfit" would give one the financial incentive to strive for excellence in these areas rather than be used an excuse for sloppy practices. Lots of businesses hire staff, most hire folks with less skills and smarts than are required to work in an apiary, but the majority of them equip their staffs with checks and balances that are designed to expect, account for, and avoid human error. To me, those Apistan strips are "dollar bills", and I want to insure that they are used wisely, so they are tracked with care, just like money. They ARE money, and must be "invested" wisely. Medications have "leverage", and as many people who had margin accounts found out recently, "leverage" can work for you, or against you. Perhaps the "fact of life" is that a lack of metrics and cross-checks are a risky way to run any business, large or small. (Obvious suggestions would be thumbtacks or staple guns to keep the strips in place, and simply counting hives versus strips in hand before leaving an apiary. It's not "ISO-9001", but it's a step in the right direction.) > I am not advocating this leaving strips in over winter, since I know a > better and more effective time to apply the strips, but I have heard the > practice considered reasonable by persons who hold great respect in our > industry. A rational observer would be forced to rethink his choice of role-models. Do these respected folks also think that stop signs only apply to other people? > In fact, some respectable research has recently (is currently?) > been taking place on this very practice. There is also research taking place on the effects of anthrax on mammals, but this does not imply that the researchers think that its a good idea to expose mammals to anthrax. > The practice discussed may still be inadvisable, but we need to > consider it levelly If we agree that it is "inadvisable", what would the outcome be of additional "consideration"? What changed to prompt such reconsideration? > Things have changed, and will continue to change. But what specifically changed that might have impact on the issue at hand? As far as I know, the chemical is the same, the bees have not changed, and the mites have become resistant only in a few specific places. If mites were becoming generally resistant everywhere, I might agree that something had "changed". But they haven't. So I don't. > We need to stay on top of new ways of thinking. While "new ways of thinking" are great, some of them are simply wrong. If they are wrong, they need to be quickly identified as such, so as to not confuse novices who might otherwise be misled. But ignoring label instructions on pesticides and/or bee medications is not a "new way of thinking", it is an old way of not thinking at all. > These matters are never settled forever. Relativism is the first step to putting superstition on an equal footing with science. If changes are considered prudent by those who shoulder the burden of responsibility in this area, they will be reflected on the label. So, one chooses to follow the label, or one chooses to break the law - it's just that simple. As we beekeepers are so fond of chanting when growers use pesticides, "the label IS the law". jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:40:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Overwintering on Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But isn't interesting that we've yet to see menthol-resistant tracheal mites, I can see this is going to be a real tarbaby, but I'll take one more whack at it. How do we know we don't? > and yet to see "resistance" to Fumadil crop up... Again, how do we know for sure? And, besides what has this to do with anything? > Might it be that the subset of beekeepers who use these two (highly under-rated) > treatments are also the subset of beekeepers who tend to not only read and > follow label instructions, but use "treatments" only when there is an actual > need to treat? Interesting speculation, but, we all know -- if we think about it for two seconds -- one without any foundation. > Perhaps Canadian bees are more predictable than others in this regard, but I > submit that most beekeepers in most locations cannot predict if their bees will > "retreat" upwards or downwards within the hive, and suggest that there is just > as much chance that clustering will take place adjacent to the strips as not. Perhaps what I discussed is not possible where you live, or under your management. > One would expect that having a "commercial outfit" would give one the financial > incentive to strive for excellence in these areas rather than be used an excuse > for sloppy practices. Lots of businesses hire staff, most hire folks with less skills > and smarts than are required to work in an apiary, but the majority of them equip > their staffs with checks and balances that are designed to expect, account for, > and avoid human error. I was talking about what happens everyday the Real World, not what we think should happen. > Perhaps the "fact of life" is that a lack of metrics and cross-checks are a risky way > to run any business, large or small. Saying something is wrong, or Jim does not like it, does not change the fact that it happens. I'm not an advocate, just a messenger. > > I am not advocating this leaving strips in over winter, since I know a > > better and more effective time to apply the strips, but I have heard the > > practice considered reasonable by persons who hold great respect in our > > industry. > > A rational observer would be forced to rethink his choice of role-models. > Do these respected folks also think that stop signs only apply to other people? I guess I have to point his out once again: not everyone lives in the US and is under US or (insert your state here) law. I assume that the researcher(s) to whom I refer have whatever permits they need to do the research in their jurisdiction. > > In fact, some respectable research has recently (is currently?) > > been taking place on this very practice. > > There is also research taking place on the effects of anthrax on > mammals, but this does not imply that the researchers think that > its a good idea to expose mammals to anthrax. What does this have to do with anything? Rhetoric is no substitute for reason. Besides I think you may be mistaken about even that, seeing as that exposure to controlled doses of a weakened pathogen is often the basis for immunization -- AFAIK. > > The practice discussed may still be inadvisable, but we need to > > consider it levelly > > If we agree that it is "inadvisable", what would the outcome be of > additional "consideration"? What changed to prompt such reconsideration? Or it may not be inadvisable. That is the point of considering it -- to decide under the circumstances and in the jurisdiction in question. There are very different rules for Apistan use in different countries of the world. Each country makes its own, and discussion and research is how the rules are set -- monitored, and sometimes changed. This is an adult forum. Participants are expected to have enough moral and ethical sense to know the difference between discussing something and doing it if it is illegal in their locality, and if obeying the law is the norm in their community. > > Things have changed, and will continue to change. > > But what specifically changed that might have impact on the issue at hand? > As far as I know, the chemical is the same, the bees have not changed, and > the mites have become resistant only in a few specific places. If mites were > becoming generally resistant everywhere, I might agree that something had > "changed". We have a lot more experience. > But ignoring label instructions on pesticides and/or bee medications is > not a "new way of thinking", it is an old way of not thinking at all. > If changes are considered prudent by those who shoulder the burden of > responsibility in this area, they will be reflected on the label. In Canada, *the people* (that's us) have some say in what goes on the label. Free discussion is how these labels are written. If they don't work quite as expected or a new concept or new information comes along, we change them. > So, one chooses to follow the label, or one chooses to break the law - it's just that simple. > > As we beekeepers are so fond of chanting when growers use pesticides, > "the label IS the law". This is really not about the law. Whatever the law says where you live, that's what it says. Whether to obey the law or not is really outside the scope of this forum. Respect for the law is important, but this is a beekeeping forum, and we got to discussing the reasoning and principles around application of Apistan, and possible future changes in recommendations and regulations, on their merits. allen The subject who is truly loyal to the chief magistrate will not submit to arbitrary measures -- Junius ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:37:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: "New ways of thinking " Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen wrote: > > We need to stay on top of "new ways of thinking". Jim wrote: > While "new ways of thinking" are great, some of them are simply wrong. > If they are wrong, they need to be quickly identified as such, so as to not confuse novices who might otherwise be misled. "New ways of thinking" were of minor importance before mites, small hive beetle and other new beekeeping problems. The journals were full of better ways to winter and ways to get bigger honey crops which would only at times get you poor wintering or a lousy honey crop but you were still in business with live bees if the "new ways of thinking " did not *pan* out. With the entrance of mites the beekeeper was overwhelmed with the "home remedies" for mites. I came back from a national meeting years ago with around 20 plus solutions for varroa mites other than strips. Over the years most were eventually tested by the USDA and others with controls and found to be worthless. Several (if not many) commercial beekeepers went bankrupt following advice given by fellow beekeepers. Bad advice not properly tested had cost many three generation beekeeping families their livelihood. A recent example of the way varroa home cures get started is on page 878 of the December 2002 American Bee Journal from the article "The Bee Police". quote: "Mr. B. (not named beekeeper) decked out in his master bee suit and a pair of RUBBER GLOVES, heavily dusted the brood chambers top bars with a garlic powder sugar mixture _an organic treatment for varroa mites." I have already had a couple calls asking about using garlic and sugar for mites. Ever heard of the method? Why the rubber gloves? Is this finally the answer we have been waiting for? I bet not but will keep an open mind to "new ways of thinking". Comments? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:12:03 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: "New ways of thinking " MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > I have already had a couple calls asking about using garlic and sugar for > mites.... Is this finally the answer we have been waiting for? If the threat we faced was diabetic vampires, perhaps it would be. :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Humdinger Subject: Patterns in microbial border crossing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bee Folks, Here is a possible dissertation topic for a bee-graduate student. According to my limited observation and consequent sweeping generalization, a pathogen in nature seems to go through certain phases, especially when it crosses its geographical boundaries: initial introduction, saturation, devastation, equilibrium, and possible future outbreaks in pockets. Given that almost all bee-related diseases coexist in the original host species, Apis cerana, for instance, and that it is in the best interest for the mites not to kill every colony in the world, thus jeopardizing their own survival—-I would like to entertain that our resilient bees should be able to take care of themselves once they had persevered the initial onslaught of both mites, the baptism-of-fire devastation phase which they now *seemed* to have passed. They may have already crossed the River Styx, especially in the American South. Similarly, there are certain populations among us who will, for example, not get infected with AIDS, though exposed to fully, thanks to their unique genetic makeup. Couldn’t there be, then, feral stocks that have already established a sense of equilibrium with mites and now some undergoing against SHB, as well? It appears not all feral colonies died off--granted they are reduced and rare. It is not in the best interest for the SHB’s to wipe out its host, either, a suicidal gesture, indeed, given that they do coexist in Africa whence they came. What they want is equilibrium, not a total wipeout. The initial defenselessness against foreign mites or SHB among EHB colonies appears to be the direct result from their never having been exposed to both; hence, they hadn’t got a clue as to what to do. However, given time, the bees will probably come up with a strategy to battle against both: they got to learn to live with otherwise they will perish. Life is resilient and adaptable. (So far, SHB’s don’t seem to bother bees in non-tropical areas beyond Florida, whose climate perhaps is similar to their place of origin) The microbial crossing of geographical borders appears to analogous to what had happened to the indigenous American population at the onset of European exploration: they died right and left because they had never been exposed to European microbes, mostly gonorrhea and syphilis, just as Asian mites killed off the EHB colonies that had been isolated in a virgin territory. (Some Spaniards, it is interesting to note, did get sick, but thanks to their previous acclimatization in European microbes, they got better much sooner than the Indians who died helplessly—-one major factor for them to quickly convert to Christianity, realizing their voodoo-god did not help much!) Untreated colonies, I understand, will perish in two years or so; however, the experiment of non-treatment, in my view, merits a periodical verification, especially for those non-commercial beekeepers. I would like to hear from those who have not treated for a while. Tempus Tacendi [time to shut up] Humdinger, from People’s Republic of Oklahoma