From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:27:44 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A794F49060 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZeS011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0302D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 205733 Lines: 4541 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:58:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Cannibalization Of Dead Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, We had a lovely day in the 40's today (the first since December) in = Vermont, so I "popped the hood" on my hobby hives. I lost one = Carniolan hive apparently early in the season - small, split clusters, = dead bees mostly in empty cells in the center of the hive, with plenty = of honey further out. There were about a hundred or so brood cells = partly chewed open. I don't see any obvious signs of disease, = especially foulbrood. This hive used to be a monster hive, but good ol' = V.D. had it's way with her. Despite two consecutive fall applications = of Apistan, the population suffered, and went into winter fairly weak. There is still about 70 lbs of honey in the hive, and lots of stored = pollen. The frames of honey appear close to spoiling, having spent the = bulk of the winter unattended (small amounts of mold on some of the = filled comb, and the honey is starting to leak from some of the cells). = The odor of the hive is still sweet - nothing nasty. My question is this: This dead hive has lots of stores, pollen in particular. Does anyone = else think it wise to cannibalize the contents of the hive for use in my = other hives? In particular, I'm wondering if providing the extra frames = of pollen, combined with syrup might stimulate some vigorous early brood = rearing, aiming towards providing some extra splits this spring. The = hives that I would put these stores into are both Russians, and seem = fairly strong, despite a hard winter and sizeable winter kills. Thanks, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 02:05:21 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Apiguard and foulbroods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Max Watkins said: > ...we have seen obvious decreases in the incidence of both European and > American foulbrood in colonies treated with Apiguard over time. > It's extremely difficult to quantify... If it is extremely difficult to quantify, then exactly how is it "obvious"? Let me explain my skeptical tone. I want to use thymol as soon as it is legal to do so. One of the hurdles that thymol faces in the US is that the EPA will not accept existing European studies on thymol, and instead, requires studies done in the US. Claims made by Europeans about thymol not backed by good data will not help convince the EPA to change its stance, and accept European studies on thymol. (And yes, I know that several people at the EPA read this list, because it has been mentioned in conversation.) Such unproven statements tend to create an aura of suspicion around a product. This makes things more difficult for Steve Forest, who is trying to get thymol approved with money from his own back pocket. I >>WANT<< to see thymol registered in the US. It is enough that thymol controls mites, even with the temperature/humidity limitations on its effectiveness noted by Bob. It need not do (or be claimed to do) anything else. Not to be pedantic, but thymol does not have to be hyped as any sort of "solution" to AFB, EFB, bad breath, yellow waxy build-up on furniture, male pattern baldness, acid reflux disease, sleeplessness, or the heartbreak of psoriasis. It just has to be less toxic than coumaphos, less difficult to handle/package than the various acids, and something that I can alternate with Apistan. Since it meets these mission-critical requirements, there is no need to make additional claims without first having statistically significant results from well-designed studies. > ...we've had many independent responses from beekeepers both professional and hobbyists > here in the UK, in France, Italy and in North Africa in particular who have used Apiguard over > two or three seasons. They say the bees are really healthy and vigorous. So do a controlled study! Please don't fall into the trap of allowing thymol to be tarred with the same brush as "essential oils" and other "magic bullet" approaches that have been touted without solid evidence. > Thymol is a natural bacteriocide, fungicide... > Apiguard is NOT a treatment for chalkbrood or for either European or > American Foulbrood If it is a "bactericide", but it is not a treatment for chalkbrood, EFB, or AFB, then what sort of bacteria is it effective against? (Again, excuse the aggressive skepticism, but why make a statement, and then add a disclaimer that directly contradicts the statement?) Sorry to be such a hardnose, but hype is not required to get beekeepers to use thymol. Hype only hurts the perception of what is otherwise a fine product. On a purely scientific level, it should be made clear that colonies with lower mite levels are known to be better able to resist other diseases, such as AFB, EFB, and chalkbrood. Strong colonies resist disease better than ones weakened by mites. So, of course Apiguard users are going to report lower disease rates. jim fischer (who has 2 Ph.D.s, and is therefore a "walking paradox") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 08:38:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: staples, was Re: [BEE-L] Nailing frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Out of curiosity - what size crown staples are folks using? Narrow or medium? Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:02:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: staples, was Re: [BEE-L] Nailing frames In-Reply-To: <3E577D61.40908@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Out of curiosity - what size crown staples are folks using? Narrow or >medium? > >Keith I use narrow crown 1 3/8 galvanized coated...2 staples at each end. Using two 10 frame jigs, I can assemble more than 500 frames a day. Once you get the feel, not many staples poke through. Wider staples are a little harder to use, but you can usually get longer staples with wider crowns. The holding power of staples is in the length, not the diameter. Bill Mraz built a nice table for stapling frames. He uses wide crown, 2" staples. The base looks like an old shave horse. The staple gun is mounted at one end in a carriage that has vertical travel. The frame is placed in one notch on the bench, and another on a vertical post, on the backside under the gun. That gets everything square, and centered under the gun.The pedal is stepped on, and the gun is activated. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:09:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Cannibalization Of Dead Hive In-Reply-To: <000e01c2d9fc$bd887d60$adad72d8@SOD> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Does anyone else think it wise to cannibalize the contents of the hive > for use in my other hives? In particular, I'm wondering if providing the > extra frames of pollen, combined with syrup might stimulate some vigorous > early brood rearing >Todd. Todd...use a pollen substitute to stimulate the hives, starting in mid-March. Use the combs from the dead hives to start the nucs in May. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:08:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Re: Nailing Frames MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You will also find that your frames will be easier to assemble with a power driver. I might suggest you make a simple jig to hold the pieces square while fastening. It will align everything and the no-impact from the power nailer will keep them that way. Dan Veilleux Vilas, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:47:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apiguard and foulbroods James writes: Not to be pedantic, but thymol does not have to be hyped as any sort of "solution" to AFB, EFB, bad breath ... PB: from what I have read, it *does* work on bad breath. The mouthwash "Listerine" contains: Menthol, Copper Gluconate, Eucalyptol, Methyl Salicylate, Thymol, etc. All of these have been tried on mites, too! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:55:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests Max Watkins writes: many trials in different countries [with beekeepers, universities and beekeeping institutes] show the efficacy of Apiguard to be an average of 93%; sometimes lower, especially in cooler climates or periods and often higher at temperatures above 25C. PB: Did anybody else notice this? Max writes "average 93%, sometimes lower". What is this supposed to mean? Has he ditched the lower figures to keep from lowering the average? I have read at least a dozen papers on thymol so far and the effectiveness seems to range from 50% to 98% mite kill. There are many references to heavy bee mortality. One study said colonies treated with thymol in the fall had 3/4 less brood in April, though they had "caught up" by May. Now the term 3/4 less is vague; I would rather read 25% as much brood, if that is what they mean. But if you have pollination contracts in April -- having your hives at 2 comb strength instead of 8 could be a real problem. I want to know if these problems have been worked out. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:01:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PB: I have read at least a dozen papers on thymol so far and the effectiveness seems to range from 50% to 98% mite kill. I see the above as the best estimate of the effectiveness of any temperature and humidity dependent product. Period! I will also say there are other factors which come into play such as openings in the hive and placement in the hive of the product. SCREENED BOTTOM BOARDS AND TOP ENTRANCES CAUSE FORMIC ACID TREATMENTS IN CANADA TO BE FAR LESS EFFECTIVE. See www.mitegone.com Pb said: . But if you have pollination contracts in April having your hives at 2 comb strength instead of 8 could be a real problem. Agreed! I have never found myself with only two frames of brood in April needing 8 but I have seen bees come out of a cold Missouri winter and be on 4 frames of brood & bees first of April. If the pollination requires 8 frames then the only thing you can do is combine or add brood to bring each hive up to the 6-8 frames needed. In the above Peter B. situation you would need to combine four 2 frame hives to make one 8 frame pollinator hive. Many may laugh but the above is done by commercial beekeepers doing April pollination all the time. Beekeepers which winter in California, Texas and Florida do not have the above problem as they can get in their hives and stimulate hives a month before needed to raise their own brood to meet the amount of brood needed. Granted stored pollen, early fresh pollen, honey and a large number of overwintered bees can change the Missouri April 1st. scenario (I have seen Italian hives on very very rare occasions with 12 frames of brood & bees coming out of a severe Missouri winter a few times). I had one hive last year and one hive the year before with 12 frames of brood and bees on April first. Every time I see a hive winter so great I wonder what the secret is as the hive next to it ( 4 frames of brood & bees) was treated *exactly* the same with the same type queen from the same queen breeder. The differences between two hives treated EXACTLY the same but ending up different has baffled beekeepers I am sure since the start of beekeeping! One reason why I take most advertised testing with a grain of salt (except of course for my own). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 09:39:28 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Queen bee performance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote under "Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests" > I had one hive last year and one hive the year before with 12 frames of brood and bees on April > first. > > Every time I see a hive winter so great I wonder what the secret is as the > hive next to it ( 4 frames of brood & bees) was treated *exactly* the same > with the same type queen from the same queen breeder. This would a typical case of what I also find. Why? Let me put forward the following points. Where you hit the nail on the head is it is the same type of queen but it is not the same queen. This sort of thing happens in Europe where I believe they call this type of queen a "blender". Take a look at nature. You have in the race horse industry horses that are better than others. You have humans that run faster than others. So why not queen bees that are better than others? You often find that the traits that make this queen a better queen are not heritable. When you breed from her those traits are not passed on. Maybe it was a fluke arrangements of the genes. They tell me that it is the same with race horses. A lot of those ones that are exceptional do not pass those features onto their progeny. With a bee breeding program, you pick the best but do not confine your selection to only one queen. You pick the top two or three. I remember Wally Maul, from Germany, telling me many years ago in their breeding program that in one case the number two choice produced, on average, better queens that the first choice. On the other hand, you must expect that there will be duds amongst what you get and again this happens in nature. Look at our race horses again. I am not in the game but those that are tell me that there are many horses breed from the best genes available that end up in tins of pet food. I think from what I have seen and experienced myself that performance of queens is close to the typical bell curve. A few great ones at the top, coming down to where the majority are in the middle and down again to a few below par performers at the bottom. So I think that you are looking for small increments in performance and that exceptional one that comes along, as Bob described, are just that, exceptional, and not the norm. It doesn't, however, stop us wondering at that occasional outstanding one that comes along every so often. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 07:07:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question I thought I'd ask . I am thinking about removing most of my hives old comb this year. I believe some of it has been there for two long. The question is this. Can I as soon as the flow begins, take all of my bees out of their hive and replace with just foundation. And let them draw new comb. Or should I just give them a new box of foundation on on top of what they have , take the honey and give them the comb back for fall honey? Just a thought preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 09:05:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Subject: Packages crashing same year Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Bob writes: Some of those beekeepers this year had their hives started from packages last spring die in late fall due to a high infestation of varroa on arrival due to failures of a few (not all) packages sellers varroa control programs failing (reported at our bee assn. meeting by several ). I would like to hear a little more about this. I had one yard of 24 new (2002) packages. No other colonies in the yard. By mid-summer the mite count was still low, 0 to 2 mites in an ether roll of about 250 bees. By fall they were full of mites. Of course, we treated. But I wonder which is more likely: 1) they had many mites upon arrival, or 2) they picked them up after they got here? Other 2002 packages that were put in yards with over-wintered colonies had many times more mites than those in the isolated yard, and some crashed before they could be treated in September. -- Peter Borst :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 19:52:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jamie Subject: Capturing Bees I am working on my Master of Science Degree studying how forest succession influences native bee diversity in Alberta and British Columbia. Is there a way that you know of to trap bees without killing them? There are various method used that I have researched all result in the death of the bee. Thank-you for any assistance. Jamie Rawlusyk Royal Roads University :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 12:57:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: Queen bee performance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor observes, “You often find that the traits that make this queen a better queen are not heritable. When you breed from her those traits are not passed on. Maybe it was a fluke arrangement of the genes. They tell me that it is the same with race horses. A lot of those ones that are exceptional do not pass those features onto their progeny.” Though interesting, the above statement, I beleive, can use some qualification. One of the major difficulties in understanding anything scientific, in general, and evolution, in particular, is the immense time period involved in genetic mutation and its consequent inheritance. (For example, 4.7 billion years is beyond anybody’s imagination no matter what clever analogy he/she may employ to explain the primordial expanse.) Similarly, our seasonal observations on exceptional or otherwise queen performance are probably too limited to draw any meaningful conclusion. In fact, a *century* of observation may not be long enough for us to talk about the inheritability of certain traits. (If certain genetic traits are indeed not inheritable, however, how do we have Italians and Carniolans with seemingly distinct traits?) Although painfully slow, incremental improvement in queen performance may be possible [punctuated equilibrium anyone?]. It must be, however, also possible that an exceptional queen and her traits are inheritable otherwise why do we bother with SMR or NWC or AHB? [The lab accelerates time, through abbreviation of seasons, in a controlled environment, or so I would like to believe] Nature does perform its own experiments, as well, using such crude yet cutthroat factors as heat, chill, fire, water, and starvation—-as well as all sorts of pestilence [mites and beetles, for instance]-—let alone other factors caused by omniscient human ants [pesticides and ill-management]. No controlled human experiment, nevertheless, could possibly involve that many variables in one shot. Hence my preference of feral bees. Pressing on this line of argument, then, all surviving species have succeeded inheriting their successful traits. Yes, Trevor, duds are everywhere, especially among politicians it seems. Mutation and its inheritance are life-savers indeed since impermanence is the only thing permanent in nature: if you don’t change, you die. FWIW, Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 13:29:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Packages crashing same year MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, I will venture a guess but I can only guess. Peter said: By fall they were full of mites. Of course, we treated. But I wonder which is more likely: 1) they had many mites upon arrival, or 2) they picked them up after they got here? The hives with high mite loads in fall and started from packages in a remote yard most likely brought a high mite load with them. Moderators will not let me publish the names of those package senders on BEE-L from which high varroa load packages were sent.. Peter said: Other 2002 packages that were put in yards with over-wintered colonies had many times more mites than those in the isolated yard, and some crashed before they could be treated in September. I suspect these brought a high varroa load with them and then picked up additional varroa from robbing other colonies and drifting drones. Peter told us earlier that he had problems with varroa last year from controls which failed. Colonies overwintering with a high varroa load became sources of varroa for new colonies started from packages. Without the packages in the isolated yard with high fall varroa counts the whole scenario could be blamed on robbing and drifting drones. Because of the isolation I suspect those packages carried a high varroa load when arriving. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:03:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Plan Ahead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Alberta Beekeepers Association 2003 convention will be held at the Fantasyland Hotel in the West Edmonton Mall on November 3, 4, & 5, 2003. The West Edmonton Mall is the largest mall in the world, and justifiably world famous.The Fantasyland Hotel and Galaxyland are located in the mall, as is the World Waterpark. Galaxyland is an indoor amusement park, and is home of The Fabulous Mindbender, the World's Largest indoor triple loop rollercoaster. Galaxyland's Mindbender rollercoaster is 14 stories tall and rated #1 in the world for G-Force. This upcoming convention is an excellent opportunity for a family vacation combined with some business. Anyone and everyone is welcome. I recommend arriving Friday night and spending the weekend at the Mall. Beekeepers typically come in at least a day early, and I expect there will be a reception on the Sunday before the meeting. Edmonton is a city of about 1,000,000 people and easily accessible from Canadian and US cities via Edmonton International Airport (YEG) or Calgary International Airport (YYC). Calgary is a 3 hour drive south of Edmonton and is one hour from Banff National Park. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 21:19:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cannibalization Of Dead Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd, WHY was the colony WEAK going into the winter? You used TWO treatments for Varroa. WHY? Did you install menthol in August to kill TRACHEAL mites, because your description of the finding of a dead hive is close to the symptoms of tracheal mites. Did you autopsy the dead bees for tracheal mites? How do you KNOW that your colony did not have AFB? Although Carniolans have a much smaller population for wintering than any other race, I have seen November clusters of Carniolans no bigger than a 3 pound swarm get through the winter in god shape. It SHOULD BE important to every beekeeper to RESEARCH JUST WHAT KILLED A COLONY rather than guess the cause. Suppose those bees died of AFB, now every piece of comb in the colony and every drop of honey, as well as the woodware of the hive may well have AFB spores, and ANY use of the comb. the honey, or even the woodware is going to infect any new bees with AFB. I hope your bees were clean of AFB; but if not, you have suffered a bitter and expensive "lesson" and hopefully you will profit from that lesson in the future. Have you treated the colony with Terramycin? Terramycin only HIDES the symptoms of AFB, but does NOT kill the spores. Many people use Terramycin as a prophylactic thinking that it will kill AFB, and some time later they find they learn the HARD WAY. The only reason that I write at all is to possibly save you more heartache because you just don't know what killed your bees. Some people might say that I am being nasty, and if so, that betrays their lack of knowledge. Just trying to HELP. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 71st year of successful beekeeping Author of Georges Monthly PINK PAGES @ www.beekeeper/george_imirie/index.html Author of American Beekeeping Federation Newsletter Hobbyist Tips Switched from Italians to Carniolans 55 years ago to take advantage of their EXPLOSIVE early spring buildup :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 21:11:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Cunningham Subject: "metal gizmo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable for Dave and who ever else is interested. The "metal gizmo" for inserting foundation into split section boxes can = be found on "kelleybees.com". Go to woodenware then supers then comb = supers. The supers and the "metal gizmo" are both there. 73 de WA9WJG, John Perrysville, IN USA =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:47:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Nailing frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On the recent subject of nailing frames, i'd like to ask a couple of questions: One of these thingies for nailing a whole bunch of frames at the same time (jig?) - how do you make one, what does it look like, anyone got a plan for one? How do you guys wire your frames? Any good gizmos for melting in the wax into the frames? I'm making a huge stack of frames this winter. My fingers have calluses in wierd places from pulling and tightening the wires. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:40:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Preacher in Missouri asked about ways to remove old comb from the hive: Removing old comb *with problems* is always a good idea. I would reduce the hive down into one box the first of April ( taking old comb) and put a box of foundation ( 10 frames) on top and feed, feed and feed until drawn out. Quit feeding when top box is drawn out. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:09:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Subject: Going Off-Label Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings Bob wrote: >SCREENED BOTTOM BOARDS AND TOP ENTRANCES CAUSE FORMIC ACID TREATMENTS IN >CANADA TO BE FAR LESS EFFECTIVE. See www.mitegone.com I was in touch with MiteGone and apparently he is encouraging US beekeepers to make their own formic acid pads, which as far as I know, is illegal. Here's a little caution: Off-Road Is Fun, But Going Off-Label May Land You in Jail EPA and FDA, in cooperation with EPA Regional Offices, USDA, and the state regulatory officials, have been investigating reports that the restricted-use pesticide zetacypermethrin (registered by FMC under the trade names Fury and Mustang) has been illegally applied to 6,458 acres of wheat in Arkansas and 18,271 acres in Mississippi to control a serious outbreak of armyworms. Zetacypermethrin is not registered for use on wheat, and therefore no wheat tolerances are established. You may remember . . . F. George Roggy, owner of Fumicor, Inc., of Edina, MN, was sentenced in St. Paul to 5 years in prison for unlawfully applying an unapproved pesticide, Dursban, on 19 million bushels of oats used by General Mills in the production of 160 million boxes of breakfast cereals. The sentence followed Roggy's November 15, 1994, criminal conviction by a jury on one count of misusing pesticides, one count of adulterating food, and 11 counts of mail fraud. Following the prison term, Roggy also received 3 years of supervised release, including 200 hours of community service in which he will lecture the community on the hazards of pesticides. PB :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:05:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Cannibalization Of Dead Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, Mike & Kevin, Thanks for the input. As to George's questions, I've thought about most of the points you made. In fact, possible infection was what led me to ask for input in the first place. I haven't autopsied for tracheal mites (because I don't know how! George - any instructions?). I have treated both spring and fall with syrups laced with wintergreen oil (menthol), and as I mentioned, I fall treated with Apistan. I've also kept mentholated grease patties in the hive thoughout the main season. This hive had some fairly heavy mite loads, which I monitored using a bottom screen and sticky paper. When I treated with Apistan I noticed very heavy mite drops, so I don't suspect any significant Apistan resistance. I don't see any obvious signs of AFB/EFB. I treated only once with Terramycin when the hive was new (3 yrs ago this spring, per instructions from our State Bee Inspector). My suspicion is a combination of Parasitic Mite Syndrome, a very hard winter (one of the worst on record here in Vermont), and a poor lay pattern. One thing I noticed when I opened the hive was the presence of fresh, healthy, partly opened brood in patches scattered around the outer reaches of the brood nest - not sensible in the winter! I think the cluster had split to try to maintain the brood. This hive also did something I think related to this queen's somewhat scattered laying pattern. When I inspected late last summer, I found that most of the honey (about 85 lbs after pulling supers) had been stored in the outer reaches of the frames. There was a round hollow area scattered with a combination of pollen and brood in the center of the brood chamber. There was no simple manipulation I could think of to consolidate the honey toward the center of the hive, such as rotating the two deeps, which I did, and putting as many full frames close to the brood nest as possible. I had planned on re-queening the hive this spring to correct this problem, but will obviously have to start over. FWIW - My other hives in the same yard are Russians, and seem to be doing reasonably well this winter. Any insights would be appreciated. Thanks, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:24:18 -0500 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Wiring frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mats Anderson inquired about wiring frames. I realize many of you probably already do these things, but new beekeepers may not know. I have a board that I use that has small blocks of wood to hold the top bar, and one smaller block in the middle of the bottom bars. It put a slight amount of tension on the frame, pulling the ends in just a small amount. I think it adds some additional tension to the wires when released. I used a mouse trap to keep the wire spool from spinning freely, and run the wire through a wooden spring type clothes pin fastened on the board to keep the wire end from springing back around the spool. I use a stout pair of long nosed (needle nosed) pliers to handle the wire. The spool of wire is positioned so it feeds into the top left hole in the frame, around a spool on the right, and back through the frame. The end is secured on the bottom left endpiece with a small wire nail. I use the pliers to grip and pull the wire, (taken off the spools, of course) prying with the pliers against the top bar. Alternately pull on the wires with the other hand until you can get a good "twang" out of the wires. Loop around a nail on the end piece, hammer in the nail, and break off the wire. It takes longer to tell it than do it, with a little practice. My board will handle several depth size frames. I made up an electric embedder, powered with a step-down AC transformer. It has metal contacts that press against the wires and heat them just enough that it sets them into the wax. I also use the transformer with clip leads to pull wires from capped frames, especially for cut comb. Leland Hubbell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: BEE-L subscribers are reminded to read and follow the guidelines for posting, which are available online at: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:57:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: question In-Reply-To: <002801c2db3c$79fc6520$d722dad0@34un9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Preacher asked about replacing old comb If you take all the comb out when the flow begins you also take out all brood, which is not good. A method successfully practiced up here in Sweden, or actually more in Norway, is to shake the bees onto foundation (only foundation) in the fall and feed them sugar syrup until they've drawn the comb and filled it with stores. You have to do this before it gets cold, though. I've done this myself to get more drawn comb. It works very well. Colonies treated like this seem to develop very well in the following spring. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:33:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Nailing frames In-Reply-To: <20030224064724.WSMR29569.fep03-svc.swip.net@mta-int.swip.n et> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:47 AM 2/24/03 +0100, you wrote: >One of these thingies for nailing a whole bunch of frames at the same time >(jig?) - how do you make one, what does it look like, anyone got a plan >for one? They typically are little more than a box that about 10 frames can fit around with two pieces of wood spring loaded (bungee cords or springs) on other side to hold the end pieces in place while you assemble the top and bottoms. I don't recall plans for one on the web, but they are very easy to build once you have seen one. >How do you guys wire your frames? I simply use a small pair of needle nose plyers. (saves my fingers). I wire mediums with 2 wires, deeps with 4. The deeps I do as two separate pieces of wire as I find it easier to thread and tighten. I usually set nails part way in a whole stack of frames then wire them. I've fired far fewer frames than many here, but I've sworn off wiring frames and plan on using plastic (with wooden frames). Much faster and easier. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:21:06 -0000 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests In-Reply-To: <200302221955.h1MJggm6027124@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter & All, To clarify - the average control of varroa mites provided by Apiguard treatments is 93%. Sometimes the figure is higher, sometimes lower, partly dependent on temperature. We have sometimes seen efficacy of 70-75% in cool conditions and 98-99% in warmer climes. The average is 93% control. The brood studies we've performed do not indicate a problem with brood mortality. This is a function of the formulation. Thymol alone can indeed do severe damage to brood. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax: +44 (0) 1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:15:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Skriba Subject: Re: Nailing frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If worse comes to worse, if you can't find the plans, Walter Kelly's sells frame nailing jigs.. for both deep and medium frames. I bought one just for a pattern, and now have 3 of each size, with 2 kids and 3 jigs and an air stapler, we can turn out quite a few frames a day. Bill Ithaca, MI :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:19:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests Greetings, I want to thank Max Watkins for his willingness to provide information in a timely manner. I realize the world varroa situation is extremely complicated with the myriad regulations, micro-climates, management techniques, etc. This presents a severe challenge both to beekeepers wanting to get the latest controls and to distributors who want to provide them. May the future bring success to us all! Peter Borst Ithaca, NY U S A :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:02:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: >SCREENED BOTTOM BOARDS AND TOP ENTRANCES CAUSE FORMIC ACID TREATMENTS IN >CANADA TO BE FAR LESS EFFECTIVE. See www.mitegone.com With the formic acid gel possibly being released this fall I see the above as valuable information to those considering gel use. Peter said: I was in touch with MiteGone and apparently he is encouraging US beekeepers to make their own formic acid pads, which as far as I know, is illegal. Mitegone lawyers have told Mitegone what they are doing is not illegal. What the EPA had to say from the www.mitegone.com: website: "It has been determined at the EPA that your product {Mitegone} is an application method of applying a pesticide. As such, it is neither a pesticide nor a device regulated by this agency. Thus,you are free to market it in this country {the U.S.A.} as long as you do not sell formic acid with it . For the sake of discussion: Is formic acid use in bee hives illegal or homeopathic? Are Canada and New Zealand losing their minds registering the use of formic acid in bee hives? Is the American Beekeeping Federation and other beekeepers out of their minds pushing for formic acid registration? After 20 years of formic acid use overseas contamination of wax or honey has never been a problem as the food industry using tons of the stuff. *Organic* beekeepers are saying formic acid is the better alternative than Apistan & Coumaphos. We have already set tolerance levels for Fluvalinate and Coumaphos in honey in the U.S. . Will we raise those levels as contamination increases? If so how many PPB will we go before honey is considered unsaleable? Is coumaphos really a safer choice for the U.S. (going to have to see a doctor about this endless twitching!) ?. I HAVE SEEN MANY beekeepers pick up Checkmite strips with barehanded. NOT Bob! IMPORTANT! I am not advocating the use of any illegal pesticide or formic acid but only putting out on BEE-L pros and cons of the situation as it exists today. In many parts of the U.S. today there is no registered treatment which works for varroa control in the U.S.. Ten of thousands of U.S. hives could crash this September if a solution is not found. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:32:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis' Subject: Re: Nailing frames (wiring) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, > >How do you guys wire your frames? I use one of two methods to wire frames. 1.nail and wrap method 2.wrap and tie method Doesn't realy matter on the pattern used. In either case I use a wire crimper to tighten. To much work with the pliers, cranking and yanking methods. Less than 5 second and the wires are crimped tight. Only about 10 US dollars for a crimper. Only good for a few 1000 frames before they wear out however. A stainless one can be obtained from Austrailia for around $50 US but will last a lifetime. I go for the cheapies. Also I use a 15 gallon drum to process culls or old combs w/ immersion heater. The frames come out,brush the wires quickly and recrimp them to tighten. Ready to go to the field after mounting foundations. Saves all that time re-wiring. I process the wax and mill into foundation. Clay :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:03:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: News from Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Sad news from the Florida Beekeeper list. The Florida State Beekeepers Assn. Board of Managers was notified that the new state budget presented by Governor jeb Bush would eliminate the Florida Apiary Inspection Division. Doc Ballard said: Further information will be forthcoming as to the means beekeepers can convey their DISPLEASURE to the elected officials in their areas. I will post the information on BEE-L as soon as Doc posts so maybe all of us can complain. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:42:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Nailing frames (wiring) In-Reply-To: <00ac01c2dc5c$fbf2f1e0$500517d1@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >How do you guys wire your frames? When my husband and I saw the film "Ulee's Gold", the Peter Fonda character, Ulee, went to work at the bench in his honey house to wire frames. We slid forward in our seats, our eyes open for the demonstration. As he lifted the first wire, the camera swung away to another character, and left us disappointed. That, we agreed, as we drove home laughing at our mutual anticipation, would have been the most exciting part of the film. MEA McNeil :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:22:13 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: News from Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Following the news that was put on to Bee-L regarding the situation in Florida. Ensuring that I remain apolitical and discrete, may I just say a big "Oh dear". and, "I do hope that your representatives really understand what they are doing" Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 22:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig Subject: Re: Cannibalization Of Dead Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Although Carniolans have a much smaller population for wintering than any > other race, I have seen November clusters of Carniolans no bigger than a 3 > pound swarm get through the winter in god shape. How much smaller (how many frames) is a typical Carniolan cluster compared to an Italian one at this time of year in your area, George? I have read in books about Carniolans wintering on smaller clusters but no one seems to quantify it. Thanks, Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:58:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: News from Florida Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: Ensuring that I remain apolitical and discrete, may I just say a big "Oh dear". and, "I do hope that your representatives really understand what they are doing" I agree with Peter. According to the vol. 183, no.5 issue on migratory beekeepers in National Geographic 130,000 beehives are moved in and out of Florida each year. Before long without inspections. Most migratory beekeepers consider inspections a nuisance but I believe a necessary nuisance. Besides the above service the inspection service does local inspections and monitors ports destroying Africanized swarms plus many other duties to numerous the mention. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 19:01:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Miller Subject: Scientific Proof? It seems in most of the bee magazines that I get and on online discussions I read that there is an awful lot of opinion as to what works in beekeeping. I have taken an approach as I learn, to pay attention to those that have had success, in particular commercial operators. But even some of these people do things very differently. Is there a scientific journal with an emphasis on beekeeping that publishes research results in a reliable format? What I am looking forward to is something comparable to medicines Lancet or JAMA. If not, what are the PHD bee people publishing their results in? Thank you, Joe Greenville NC beejb4@cox.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:54:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Nailing frames (wiring) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Mea wrote about "Ulee's gold" Mea, you got me laughing there. I love the film and i watch it now and then during dark winter evenings. I just can't figure out why they had to mix that stupid story about Ulee's son in there. The beekeeping parts are great. I hear they're making a sequel where Ulee's lives a peaceful life and spends most of the time extracting, raising queens and wiring frames. I'll be there for the premiere for sure! /Mats ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:30:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1257" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beefriends Max Watkins writes: > To clarify - the average control of varroa mites provided by Apiguard > treatments is 93%. It means that 7 mites of 100 survive. Recently we use Apistan and its efficiency at the beginning was promised higher than 99%. It means that about 1 mite of 100 survives. Does it mean that the mite resistance to Apiguard will develop about 7 times sooner than to Apistan, having a much higher efficiency? Your opinion, please. The third and fourth week of this January, after usual air temperatures between -10 and -27 C, we got 2 warm weeks with temperatures from -2 to +2 C. Some beekeeper report that they noticed the queens' activity in their hives. Usually it starts here a month later. They are worried about the provision and added some dry food (sugar powder plus honey). Now we have a usual winter with air temperatures between -5 and -10C. Best wishes Rimantas Zujus Amateur beekeeper Kaunas, Lithuania 55 North, 24 East ICQ 4201422 http://gytis.lei.lt/~zujus/ e-mail : zujus@mail.lei.lt http://www.lei.lt (Lithuanian Energy Institute) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 00:10:48 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: News from Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: > "I do hope that your representatives really understand what they are doing" To answer your question, it should first be explained that the Governor of Florida, Jeb Bush, is the brother of US President George Bush. Once this is explained, the answer should be obvious. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:26:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion Peter said: I was in touch with MiteGone and apparently he is encouraging US beekeepers to make their own formic acid pads, which as far as I know, is illegal. Bob replies Mitegone lawyers have told Mitegone what they are doing is not illegal. Peter: I *meant* that for US beekeepers to use formic is illegal. Not whatever Mitegone is doing, which is selling the pads. Anyway, YOU are responsible if you contaminate your honey with an unapproved product or if you exceed the limits of one that is aproved. I think formic is a good product and should be made available, prepackaged. I think beekeepers should wait till it is available. I have met hundreds of beekeepers and the majority of them seem to think that they should apply whatever treatments and chemicals they feel likem, govt. be damned. I don't agree with this philosophy. pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:41:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the sake of discussion and none others wanting to join in I will continue presenting the other side of the issue as presented by Mitegone & others at the ABF convention in K.C. in January. I can not stand by and let Peters position be the only position on the subject. Formic acid discussion at the ABF convention was heated. A majority vote was had by those in attendance for the present resolution. In all fairness there were nay votes! Peter: I *meant* that for US beekeepers to use formic is illegal. Although a complete registration of liquid formic acid for use in bee hives was applied for and granted in both Canada and New Zealand none has been applied for (to my knowledge) in the U.S. yet. In all *other* parts of the world formic acid use is widespread and considered a homopathec method of control such as using backing soda to control ants. Food grade mineral oil use is not registered for use in bee hives but widely accepted as a legal homopathec use. Medhat N. (of our list) has given many talks in the U.S. about the safe way formic acid is used in Canada and has stated many times it is his opinion formic acid could be the solution we are looking for. Medhat even invented a pad method of dispensing for Canada. Peter said: Anyway, YOU are responsible if you contaminate your honey with an unapproved product or if you exceed the limits of one that is aproved. Most people which have looked at formic acid use (myself) see little chance of contamination and testing in Canada have proven those people to be correct. Dr. Shiminuki (ret. head of USDA bee labs) said many times that formic acid was far less likely to contaminate honey and wax than any chemical strips which we might use (apistan & checkmite). *Bob always not afraid to put the situation in a way All can understand* Dr. Shiminuki was afraid *to put things bluntly* that the U.S. beekeeper would not be able to safely *handle* liquid formic acid without problems. Apparently we are not as capable as Canada & New Zealand beekeepers so we need to be protected from ourselves! Peter said: I think formic is a good product and should be made available, prepackaged. I think beekeepers should wait till it is available. What if safe packaging of formic acid does not happen and although registered never sees the market.? Sadly the private predictons of several researchers (at the start) about there never being a way to safely package a formic acid gel has been true so far. After all formic acid gel was a dream of Dr. Shiminuki (excellent idea by the way) but said unworkable and dangerous by many other researchers privately then and even today. My only problem with the formic acid gel as registered was that it did not work as per label (one packet) for our area . Even Bob Stevens in his "Betterbee" catalog(at the time) recommmended two packets per treatment for maximum control. I believe the new label will say two packets instead of one packet but could be wrong. Important: If the formic acid gel ever finds its way to the market and works then I would certainly endorse its use! Peter said: I have met hundreds of beekeepers and the majority of them seem to think that they should apply whatever treatments and chemicals they feel likem, govt. be damned. I don't agree with this philosophy. I agree completely! Certain beekeepers using various sheep dips have caused much grief on our industry. Only when one of those beekeepers comes in contact with a knowledgeable person like myself do they realize the errors of their ways. I have opened many eyes! Quite a bit of very bad information is passed from beekeeper to beekeeper at meetings. A few beekeepers are having to replace all the comb in their hives right now because of illegal use of a coumaphos product. It always amazes me when beekeepers which can afford legal treatments risk their whole operation on illegal methods which they would have found out by simply attending a national meeting or asking a inspector does not work and has been found to cause contamination of both honey and beeswax.. Important: Unlike most which would not enter the above debate I will share my knowledge of the subject. Checkmite & mite resistant bees are still working for me so my back is not up against the wall like many beekeepers in the south east U.S.. I could however be looking for another control within months if coumaphos resistant mites arrive in my area. I do support and voted for the resolution made at the ABF convention by the commercial beekeepers group that the ABF push for complete registration for formic acid (or at least a clarification by the USDA that use of formic acid liquid in bee hives is homeopathic as put for by many). Registration already exists for formic acid gel. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:58:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: News from Florida Bob further noted: "...130,000 beehives are moved in and out of Florida each year... ...Most migratory beekeepers consider inspections a nuisance but I believe a necessary nuisance." "Besides the above service the inspection service does local inspections and monitors ports destroying Africanized swarms plus many other duties too numerous the mention." To All: Iowa lost its Bee Inspector a couple of years ago. Last year the President almost succeded in purging $3.2 million in bee research, closing 3 of 4 ARS research labs, and reducing research personnel from 21 to 9. Now the Governor from the sunshine state wants to save a few dollars and cease its apiary inspections. Ladies and gentlemen we are up to our armpits in Florida swampwater and a huge swarm has risen out of Pandoras box which may very well in the long term produce a devastation to agriculture none like any dustbowl that we have ever seen. We are just now starting to see a trend that if allowed to continue may very well be the demise of beekeeping, commercial and non- commercial, as we now know it. This has consequences far beyond the apiary. State apiary inspection is the first line of defense. The ARS Labs are the second line of defense. If we were to lose both, yes the ARS battle is not over, the European honeybee in the Americas 100 years from today will not be a creature that is the result of scientific and selective breeding by mankind. Imagine the consequences if the Cape Bee from South Africa were to somehow obtain a foothold in Florida, or any state without an apiary inspection service. Imagine another pest new to beekeeping or perhaps a current one that has undergone "significant genetic modification" released upon the Florida landscape to be further disseminated throughout the United States. I believe that it was a Florida State Inspector who first recognized the Small Hive Beetle although it was first noticed but not recognized the year before in Charleston, SC. Imagine Florida without honeybees to pollinate its citrus crop, imagine California without pollinators for its almonds. Imagine the United States without honey bee pollinators to support its vast wealth of fruit, berries, and vegetables. Without a first and a second line of defense such a scenario as suggested above is possible. IMHO I believe that such things can happen. We live in an era of scientific enlightenment; we also live in an era of political apathy substituted for stewardship. These indeed are difficult times, they may very well be the worst of times. It was beekeepers that worked to save the ARS Labs; we need to continue this path that we have started. We need to educate and enlighten the general public, we need to continue to lobby at the state and national level; and, those kind and gentle beekeepers who have been content to be silent for so long need to speak out and be heard. We need to give our support to university and USDA ARS research; we need to give our support to our own state inspection services and others; we need to support our own industry in a manner greater than merely custodial if we want to continue to be keepers of bees! Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:11:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion Bob, My one and only point is that it is a mistake to use a product that is not approved or use an approved product in an unapproved manner. One loses all legal standing when one does this, and jeopardizes the industry as a whole. It makes no difference if the product is used safely in other countries, or is permitted under some circumstances in this country. It doesn't make any difference if the ruling is wrong, from this point of view. My point is that without the regulations, it would be every man for himself using whatever concoction he feels like. That's they way it is in many third world countries, and people get poisoned all the time. Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:13:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Re: News from Florida MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maybe we folks outside of Florida should not let bees , queens, packages out of Florida with out an inspection. I guess that would place an additional burden on Alabama and Georgia. But the rest of us could boycott Florida bees. Of course they could get around the situation. Without inspection we all could expect to get SHB, resistant mites etc. There is no good solution that I can see that won't hurt the innocent-The Florida beekeepers Dan Veilleux Vilas, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:12:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: Scientific Proof? Comments: cc: beejb4@COX.NET, phwells@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <200302250001.h1OMMJoK022896@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Joe Miller inquired: >It seems in most of the bee magazines that I get and on online discussions >I read that there is an awful lot of opinion as to what works in >beekeeping. I have taken an approach as I learn, to pay attention to >those that have had success, in particular commercial operators. But even >some of these people do things very differently. Successful commercial operators are your best source of information. At the last CA Beekeepers Convention, attendees visited three such operations during the second day and learned a great deal. Amateur beekeepers (in my experience) often exhibit superstitious behavior in their management. That approach may yield good results for a short time but may fail miserably later. >Is there a scientific journal with an emphasis on beekeeping that >publishes research results in a reliable format? What I am looking >forward to is something comparable to medicines Lancet or JAMA. If not, >what are the PHD bee people publishing their results in? The Journal of Apicultural Research, published in Britain (with editors in other countries), is the most focused on beekeeping per se. Insectes Sociaux, published in France (with editors in other countries, again), covers research on all social insects. The Journal of Insect Behavior is another source. I just had a paper published there and can mail you a copy if you furnish a mailing address. You can also access that paper at: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002 Other than those journals, researchers try to get what they consider "hot" into journals such as Nature or Science. For instance, the latter journal is now considering a paper on training honey bees to find land mines (it worked). Both Bee Culture and the American Bee Journal sometimes carry relevant papers that have gone through a review process. Hope that helps. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm **************************************************************************** * * "T'is the majority [...that] prevails. Assent, and you are sane * Demur, you're straightway dangerous, and handled with a chain." * * Emily Dickinson, 1862 * **************************************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: News from Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Norton said: > ... the ARS battle is not over. While, it does seem that one or more bee labs are threatened every few years on one pretext or another, the current battle appears to be "over". On Thu, Feb 20, the President signed the "Omnibus Spending Bill", and this (apparently) funded the Bee Labs at their 2002 levels, just as the USDA budget did. Like all the other budget bills, it was replaced by the Omnibus Spending Bill. The only specific supporting evidence I can offer is a Washington Post article, which, predictably, lists Bee Lab funding as "pork". http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18257-2003Feb16.html "From Hill With Love, A Platter of Bacon" "...$2 million for a Beltsville lab for honey bees..." In fact, bee research will only be accurately described as "pork" when pigs fly. :) This little skirmish may be won, but the "war" will not be "over" until the term "bee lab(s)" is consistently replaced by a reference to a specific research >>activity<<, such as "diseases and pests", "improved breeds", "genetics", "management", and so on. The basic problem is that "lab" means a building or facility, and buildings have a habit of being named for congressmen. This is a very bad idea, since egos create situations where some names are no longer "popular", and/or no one wants to "fund" something with someone else's name on it. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:51:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: What gives? My bees are healthy and active, many hives have very large populations, and the number of flowers from plants bee's like is so great that even where I have lots of hives, you have to look for a while before you see a bee. Last year I had lots of honey at this time, and I have nothing at all now, and have had to stop going to the Farmer's Markets completely. The weather has been nice, the ground is moist. Here's a picture I took today, you can see the number of bees coming out of a crack in back of this hive. http://webpages.charter.net/tvaughan/apiary2.html I'm hoping the large amount of pollen is stimulating the bees to concentrate on brood rather than honey, but I'm starting to get nervous. Does anyone have any ideas? There is lots of brood, and I see very little signs of large scale poisoning, which is a problem in this area. Thanks Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:41:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Walker Subject: Colony Recordkeeping Forms/Software With the start of the new season upon us, I plan to expand the hives I have via splits, etc. I am sure this is going to create a problem as far as record keeping is concerned as I was having a tough time keeping track of hives deatil I have now, let alone doubling the number under admin. Can anyone tell me where I can get a detailed hive record template, or PDF file, or software program? Or failing anything available on the internet, a detailed records book that can be purchased from a supplier? Many Thanks, Mark Walker. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:59:09 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said, in regard to formic acid: > My one and only point is that it is a mistake to use a product that is not > approved or use an approved product in an unapproved manner. One loses all > legal standing when one does this, and jeopardizes the industry as a whole. > It makes no difference if the product is used safely in other countries, or > is permitted under some circumstances in this country. It doesn't make any > difference if the ruling is wrong, from this point of view. For the record, "I agree with Peter Borst". :) BUT, what if we were to apply this same exact logic to other commonly-used beekeeping items? a) Where is the "approval" for the use of smoke? There never has been one. b) Where is the "approval" for the use of FGMO? There never has been one. (OK, it is "food grade", and therefore "generally recognized as safe" in food, but there are lots of food-grade items that, if found in honey, would be considered a "contaminant".) c) Where is the "approval" for the use of Butyric Anhydride ("Bee-Go")? There was an "exemption from the requirement for a tolerance" listed at the EPA in the 1980s, but it was quietly revoked a few years ago. (If an "exemption" no longer exists, and neither does a "tolerance" for the chemical, this can only mean that no amount of butyric is permitted in honey, and any honey contaminated with it must be marked "unfit for human consumption".) In regard to "beekeeper safety": a) Which is more "hazardous" if mishandled? Formic Acid, or Checkmite Strips? a1) To the beekeeper? a2) To the environment? a3) To the bees? a4) To the honey? b) What's the most "dangerous" item a beekeeper owns from an "OSHA" point of view? b1) Heavy supers that need to be lifted? b2) Wearing a two-cycle engine backpack blower without ear protection? b3) A table saw used to make supers? In regard to "safe" packaging, how do an Apistan strip, a Checkmite strip, and a bottle of formic acid differ in the safety precautions one would want on the label? (Hint: gloves are a good idea for all 3, but what KIND of gloves are correct for handling each? In regard to "safety" in general, at what point can we get regulators to separate "beekeepers" from "consumers", and admit that keeping bees is a avocation or vocation that requires more intelligence and care than is credited to "consumers", inherently implying the assumption of a certain amount of risk, and barring most "personal injury suits" against product suppliers and manufacturers? At the end of the road to "protect" everyone from everything, we have warning labels like the one found on a pump-top coffee carafe that sits in my conference room: "Warning: May Contain Hot Liquid" I noticed the label when the new carafe first appeared, and made it clear to my staff that the warning label should be about what would happen if I found it to NOT contain hot liquid. :) jim (a caffeine-based lifeform) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:04:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wiring Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use nylon monofilament fishing line - 60lb BS Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:06:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Scientific proof? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/02/03 05:04:07 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Is there a scientific journal with an emphasis on beekeeping that publishes research results in a reliable format? What I am looking forward to is something comparable to medicines Lancet or JAMA. If not, what are the PHD bee people publishing their results in? >> The Journal of Apicultural Research published by the International Bee Research Association, and also their magazine Bee World. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:53:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: News from Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cast my vote to ban shippers with un-inspected bees from coming into Alabama. I think Georgia would not let Alabama get ahead so they would also stop bees on comb from entering the state. Lionel North Ala. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:38:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Yoonytoons Subject: Re: Colony Recordkeeping Forms/Software Mark, For a simple record-keeping, such as you describe, you can use Microsoft Excel Spread Sheet. You don't have to buy anything if your computer came with this program preinstalled. The program is easy to figure out, as well. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 20:12:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Colony Recordkeeping Forms/Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, there is two versions of a beekeeping program for sale, with limited time free downloads at:- http://www.mynista.com/beekeeper/default.htm Peter (in Quebec at minus 25oC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Walker" Can anyone tell me where I can get a detailed hive record template, or PDF file, or software program? Or failing anything available on the internet, a detailed records book that can be purchased from a supplier? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:22:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bill & cathy brown Subject: Re: Colony Recordkeeping Forms/Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, I just purchased a Beekeeper's Backpocket Reminder, by Michael Rainville. It contains great reminders in the front section (i.e. seasonal checklists, equipment checklist, queen marking colors, installing package bees, hive inspection and feeding guidelines, medications, diseases,and hive management.) The last half of the book contain blank templates for yard and hive records. I got mine on Ebay, where the author is selling them. If you go to Ebay and do a 'beekeeping' search, you will find his book. Cost is $5.95 plus shipping. Best of all, it fits in the pocket of your beesuit. This allows the beekeeper to take notes when he needs to, during hive inspection. I have also heard of beekeepers who carry small digital recorders, transcribing data at home on the computer into Excel. Good luck! Bill Brown Willits, CA. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 19:42:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I want to thank all those which have sent me private email to improve my knowledge of the subject. Especially those in high places which say I am doing a great job and keep on with the formic acid discussion. Peter said: > My one and only point is that it is a mistake to use a product that is not > approved or use an approved product in an unapproved manner. Half the items in the kitchen have got homeopathic uses. in fact many books have been written on their use. I use salt to get rid of ants and Oatmeal to kill mice. The problem comes I have been told when I want to sell Oatmeal to kill mice or salt to kill ants on the open market. Then I need approval. According to my emails I do not need any approval for my own use. >From a email I received on the subject: "Therefore the EPA does not regulate pesticides made for your own use but certainly DOES regulate *sales* of such pesticide products". "Therefore the EPA does not consider it an illegal treatment for a beekeeper to make or buy a device to despense formic acid in a beehive and buy the formic acid and use it for a mite control on their OWN BEES. THEY CANNOT HOWEVER SELL THIS TO ANYONE ELSE WITHOUT PROPER APPROVAL AND LABELING FROM THE EPA" The sender then asked me: If the above is correct is it really wise to persue label for use in beehives to treat for mites? The motion to push for full registration for formic acid was already on the table when I sat down in the commercial beekeepers sig at the ABF convention. After hearing both sides of the issue I thought maybe we do need formic acid as another weapon against varroa when our strips fail. After reading the above I wonder if registration is neccessary. Can any on the list shed light on the above? Further clarification from an email: "Now any use of an existing , registered and labeled pesticide in a manner not given on the label CLEARLY IS an illegal use." "WITHOUT FORMIC ACID BEING AN APPROVED ,LABELED PESTICIDE THERE IS NO LABEL TO BE ENFORCED" Further clarification from an email; "We know from research that has been done that treatment during no surplus honey production periods WILL NOT result in contamination of harvested honey and the EPA has exempted formic acid from a residue tolerance in honey IN PART because formic acid is normally found in many honeys." Granted if I put large doses of salt in my hive and the salt gets into the honey then the honey can be deemed contaminated and pulled from the market. This goes for any substance found in honey without a tolerance IF in a high enough quantity . So a homeopathic control for varroa could cause honey to be deemed unfit for human consumption if the PPB were high enough (even food grade mineral oil). What normally happens with chemical strips such as Apistan and Checkmite is that the makers go to the EPA and get a tolerance level established which is what has been done with both Fluvalinate (Apistan) and Coumaphos (Checkmite) when both started appearing in honey. Levels 38 times the tolerance level were found in Florida in wax of a migratory beekeeper using the illegal coumaphos product( source the former Florida Apiary inspection service). The EPA is not stupid. No matter what your story might be those levels can not be had using Checkmite strips. Regardless of what you read in the bee magazines. I have been told privately that a couple honey packers tried to get a tolerance for the antibiotic found in Chinese honey. In fact they might have succeded had not U.S. beekeepers raised hell! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 02:51:48 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Colony Recordkeeping Forms/Software In-Reply-To: <200302252238.h1PMM2lS025774@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > For a simple record-keeping, such as you describe, you can use Microsoft > Excel Spread Sheet. You don't have to buy anything if your computer came > with this program preinstalled. The program is easy to figure out, as > well. There is just one thing about using excel as a hivenote software. Excel is build for accounting purposes, and for that matter not the best tool. First of you have to figure out what data you want to record. then you have to decide if you want to let data go for hives or for a whole beeyard or specific hives. now you have to insert rows as you work on. Access is a database tool and much better for this purpose, but you have to know something of relational databases how to set those up and how to figure out how to search and maintain. You will also dubbel your work by first have the data recorded on paper in the beeyard and then on the computer. Visiting lets say a 100 hives a day it will give you plenty of paper and computer work. Now at the end of season you have to compare all of those recorded data to get an overview and to plan next season. I can tell you this is not an easy work. Even if I have been working with databases for many years, and even are using a Palm handheld I have enough work to do by recording my lousy 30 hives. But the database I have created should satisfy most people. Special after I made it possible to alter nearly everything. I have also created a hivenotecard that can be printed out. Here you also can alter the headings to your need and it will also give you an idea of what we here in Denmark find is worth making notes about. There is of course differences between American and European ways of maintaining bees, but basically the work is the same. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software Now with extreem filtering and search facilities and free of charge for up to 10 hives. you can use it full for thirty days. It will not expire but just close some failities down that I have paid for. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:42:51 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: XML Tags MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I was under the impression that I had asked this question before, but I searched the archives and it didn't show up. Has anyone an existing set of XML tags that can be used to set up an Online database of racial characteristics, including wing venation, in honeybees... I am about to embark on such a project and rather than re-inventing the wheel, I would like to use existing tags if at all possible. It may be that there are sets of tags used for the same sort of thing with other hymenoptera, in the absence of tags for honey bees, some others may be adaptable. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:34:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion Bob wrote: Half the items in the kitchen have got homeopathic uses. in fact many books have been written on their use. I use salt to get rid of ants and Oatmeal to kill mice. Two very important distinctions must be made. One, is the product a pesticide? This is basically anything that is used to kill pests, but generally refers to toxic substances, because non-toxic substances seldom work against pests (there are exceptions). Two, is this commercial use? Home use of substances is far less regulated than commercial use. You may use things around your house in unconventional ways that would not be legally permissable in a commercial setting. Whether one agrees with these points or not, there is a certain plain logic involved. Two, since the quantities are much larger and applications are often performed by assistants, the potential for error and abuse is magnified. Two, when one is operating on a commercial level, the public is usually involved, especially in food production, or pest control of buildings and landscaping. In the past I have documented the widespread misuse of pesticides due to inadequate training, lack of care and even the problem of exceeding small print on labels. These are not off the wall opinions but ones which have been instilled in me during the training I received in getting certified to apply pesticides in NYS. Personally, I believe that it would be worthwhile require pesticide training and certification to beekeepers who apply registered pesticides and sell the honey. Nearly every single beekeeper I have ever met has misused pesticides in one way or another. (PS. Bee go, smoke, etc. are not pesticides. PDB crystals, rat poison, ant bait, etc. are) PB :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:52:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Les Roberts Subject: need correct term for vectored virus In-Reply-To: <200302260500.h1Q4t5lS004783@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There a term for a virus that is suspected of wiping out hives after normal, tolerated levels of varroa. The name has slipped my mind. Can someone help? ccrb - www.ChristianMusicWeekly.com published weekly for Christian Radio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:13:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Kids & Bees In-Reply-To: <9.a82ee9e.2b8423b6@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <9.a82ee9e.2b8423b6@aol.com>, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes >Check out the BBKA web site. They do a schools pack called 'Bees in the >Curriculum'. It is designed for the UK education system but it should adapt. It is superb. It gives pictures of British native bees (and other insects) so you'd need to replace them with your own native bees (solitary and bumble plus the tropical bees we don't have). The language is English English of course and the activities are designed for the British educational system (National Curriculum) so may also need some adaptation. Resource lists would also need to be localised. Hopefully the package could be inspirational. It has been here. The redesigned portable observation hive is excellent and available from Thornes to UK standards (National), though like any carpentry, can be made up by anyone skilled enough. They might make a Langstroth version for you. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:07:28 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Bee Imports & Exports/another perspective In-Reply-To: <000a01c2d839$ead41be0$0200000a@paramita> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <000a01c2d839$ead41be0$0200000a@paramita>, steve noble writes >There seems to be a Catch 22 here, is >there not? In selecting those genes which are most beneficial to us, we >move in the direction of lesser genetic diversity. Perhaps I am living in cloud cuckoo land, but our local project to develop varroa tolerance, in its first year still, is designed to use open mating with drone flooding and queen larvae exchange between groups. This will be a slower approach than using II but should maintain genetic diversity, especially since not all beekeepers will come into the project. I am of course in an area with high genetic diversity in the honeybee. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:18:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Apiguard, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20030220002554.0080b290@mail.wctel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <3.0.5.32.20030220002554.0080b290@mail.wctel.net>, Paul S LeRoy writes >It would seem to me that if >beekeepers, commercial and hobbyist have enough sense to apply Apistan and >Cumafous? by label that if the thymol products were labeled as being >temperature dependent and show the temperatures and effectivity rates at >different temperatures that beekeepers surely have enough sense to apply >them accordingly. With mite fall monitoring before and after and flexibility of application with Apiguard, the beekeeper is able to adapt accordingly. It does work at 12C anyway so it is a matter of getting it in at optimal times. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:23:18 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Apiguard, etc. In-Reply-To: <200302201328.h1KCodmC005343@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200302201328.h1KCodmC005343@listserv.albany.edu>, Peter Borst writes >I have searched >high and low and so far have not found reports of large scale trials. There >appear to be very glowing claims associated with thymol products, mostly made >by people who sell it. I am looking for unbiased evidence that it does or >does not work, that's all. I shall be doing some before and after mite fall measures - alas I lost many of my before samples in a fire. Subjectively it does work. Spring assessments will confirm how well. So far I am using Apiguard (approx 1/3 thymol in 2/3 gel) only when mite numbers warrant it. I am not too worried about high effectiveness, at the 90% level or better, as I am also looking for bees that bite varroa legs off. Where this has been selected for, it does improve to the 60% level or higher (Wallner, Lips, Dews). -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:00:26 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Bee Imports & Exports/another perspective In-Reply-To: <001501c2d81a$5d6bf260$2fac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <001501c2d81a$5d6bf260$2fac58d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >I find it funny that you English are so attached to your black bee that >Brother Adam found (in his opinion) to not be even close to being the ideal >bee. In my opinion Brother Adam was wrong. It is a great pity that the adoration of his many excellent contributions to beekeeping glosses over this basic error. If he had taken the view that any native stock could be improved, his contribution would have been even greater and adaptable to any country. However, he went down a breeding blind alley. In our climate it does well. I and a colleague regularly get averages of 160lb from static apiaries in areas where there is no agricultural forage. I have been complimented by Bee Inspectors on the good temper of my bees. Whilst I rarely take the risk of working without a bee suit, we do normally work without gloves. Of course my bees and those of my colleagues would not come up to your standards, given their nervousness and our own very variable climate here in Cornwall, and we are working in such high densities of beehives that we have to constantly select out those of poor temperament. Yes, people who don't select can have bees you cannot get anywhere near without armour plated suits, and I have read many posts from the US about similar bees. >I do wish I had saved at least one hive of those bees to always remind me >why I eliminated those from the gene pool . > >Dave said: >Something close to my heart is genetic and allelic diversity... In UK we >have a natural background of bees with a history of around 10,000 years in >our geographic location. >This broad based gene pool has been modified somewhat over the last 180 >years or more, by imports and selective breeding. > >*Somewhat* should be changed to *largely modified* after tracheal mites >*almost* wiped out the original black bee in the early 1900's and heavy >importation began. It depends on which part of the UK you are. In the SE, continual replacement with Italian stock (from whatever source) maintains a high Italian component to all bees. In other parts we do have near native stock. I look forward to Professor Ratnieks results on genetic testing to resolve this issue. Certainly his previous work with Pederson has demonstrated virtually pure A.m.m. stock from the few selected areas he took samples from. In any case, the original black bee was not almost wiped out - another myth promoted by Brother Adam. It seems to have been mostly Italian and hybrids that succumbed and mostly in the SE of the country. Further west and north, there was much less damage. Sensationalism in the press made it seem worse. Remember the association of CPV and TM means that it was more likely that it was the symptoms of CPV that were labelled Isle of Wight disease and that it was overcrowding in the hives due to the unusual weather conditions of the time that led to both diseases proliferating. (Recent discussion in BEE-L about the increase in disease problems attributed to TM when colonies with significant TM were moved north have not addressed this aspect). The native bees, being less prolific (not less susceptible according to recent studies) and being more able to fly in adverse weather conditions would not have had the high density of bees in the hives for so long. >Dave said: >This paucity of alleles is further reduced by modern breeding projects that >are 'quick and dirty' with little or no attention to 'quality control'. > >If you are refering to work done at the Baton Rouge Bee lab then you simply >do not understand the project. I doubt Dave meant that, but he can answer for himself. >Dave said: >We in UK and mainland Europe are attempting to retain the biodiversity >levels that we have fallen to and even increase or re-establish them if >possible, but bringing in US stock would dilute and/or displace some of our >natural diversity. > >Will your English bee survive varroa without help? Shouldn't you be leaving >some untreated and breeding from varroa tolerant bees? Yes some of us are looking for varroa tolerant bees with intent. > Would not the SMR >trait be a help to your English black bee? Yes, it might have it if we look for it. We have found quite a few hives with low enough mite fall to be hopeful. I am thankful to Harbo for discovering it and promoting it. I *desperately* want us to get ahead of this game so people don't start looking at a non-native bee as the saviour of us all. The grass is greener syndrome means people will not take responsibility for improving their own bees and would rather let someone else do the work without thinking of the consequences. I am personally enabling a project to develop "varroa tolerance" into our bees over the peninsula of Cornwall. I am also hopeful we might influence our neighbours further up the SW peninsula. Certainly other groups affiliated to BIBBA are doing the same throughout the UK. >I love to kid Dave (and others) about their beloved English bee but Dave >knows I respect Dave and all my English friends. Of course we know that and we have had many lengthy and friendly exchanges on all manner of topics including sight of an excellent video which helps us see US beekeepers at work in totally different circumstances. >We have the same type of discussion over pro's and con's in the U.S. >between Carniolan & Italian beekeepers and Ford and Chevy owners. The major difference is that we have a honeybee native to the UK. (I don't want to get into a debate about the tropical stingless bees being called honeybees!) It is versatile, hardy, productive and good tempered where the beekeeper does the right selection - that means observation, selection, rearing queens and drones and culling and replacing less good stock. It does not mean replacing queens every year interestingly, since some of our best performers are 2, 3 and even 4 years old. And I mean 160lb averages in an area where the typical hobbyist is pleased with as much as 40lb. There seems to be little discussion about racial types - if a beekeeper has carniolan, Buckfast or ligustican bees, they tend not to disclose or discuss harvests, feeding or disease levels. Ligusticans in particular tend to die out in our climate and perform poorly. Beekeepers often report an improvement in harvests after 3 generations. Temperament is another matter. This is another reason why not to import. The price we pay for anothers imports of a particularly quiet bee is increased bad temper in the later crosses, whilst the importer continues to import oblivious or uncaring about the knock-on effect of his drones. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:31:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Apiguard's efficacy proved by numerous tests In-Reply-To: <000001c2d93b$f30e6560$96ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <000001c2d93b$f30e6560$96ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >I have heard of thymol products and formic acid users talking of less >chalkbrood and nosema but NEVER of help with European and American >foulbrood. Help with foulbrood would be a plus about Apiguard! > >Are we talking of curing active EFB or AFb similar to Terramycin Max? > >I would never believe Apiguard would kill AFB spores and I am sure neither >would Max. Could a biologist please explain if thymol or other essential oils might improve bees' immune systems - or if it just might act as a disinfectant by killing the bacteria. I have been told that cows eating herbs in the pasture are healthier than those eating monoculture grass. Basic explanation please or URL. Many thanks. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:14:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: Nearly every single beekeeper I have ever met has misused pesticides in one way or another. I am happy to report even with the travel and contact with many many beekeepers I do misuse is very rare in the circles I travel in and always seems to be the lone beekeeper trying to save money using the bad information given him by another misinformed beekeeper. These beekeepers rarely (if ever) attend beekeepers meetings of any kind. . Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:17:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Janet Montgomery Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I would agree that state certification for the use of mite control products would be beneficial. This would happen if these products were placed on the restricted pesticide list. Knowledge is always beneficial when treating "livestock" and providing a food product to the public.Dan Veilleux Vilas, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:25:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: Bee Imports & Exports/another perspective MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Kilty wrote; ... "our local project to > develop varroa tolerance, in its first year still, is designed to use > open mating with drone flooding and queen larvae exchange between > groups. This will be a slower approach than using II but should maintain > genetic diversity, especially since not all beekeepers will come into > the project. I am of course in an area with high genetic diversity in > the honeybee. > -- > James Kilty I for one would be interested in learning more about this approach. Specifically, is it primarily with the goal of maintaining genetic diversity in mind that this approach is taken? In terms of genetic diversity, what are the nuts and bolts advantages, of this approach over say artificial insemination? How woud the end result of either approach differ from the other? I do not know if the gene pool of honey bees is shrinking. On the one hand there clearly seems to be a tendency on the part of beekeepers to acquire bees from breeding programs which can demonstrate what are considered improvements. Russians are becoming popular here in the States, for example. This would have a tendency to reduce the frequency of genes which are more specifically associated with other lines. I suppose it could even result in the extreme case of elimination of what at one time may have been an important line of bees since bees seem to be so dependent these days on humans for there very survival. On the other hand there is certainly a lot of diversity in what beekeepers value in a bee. Along with profit and convenience, there are apparently plenty of sentimental reasons for keeping certain kinds of bees. Commercial beekeepers, however, can hardly afford to let sentiment effect their decisions. They would tend toward improvements which would increase relatively narrow parameters. As much as big business has become characteristic of at least American agriculture, and as much as this has affected us ecologically and otherwise, there seem to be enough small scale beekeeping going on even in North America, to assure a fairly healthy genetic diversity is maintained in honey bees. Is anyone willing to shed more light on this matter? And what if any will be the effect of cloning on all this? Steve Noble > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 13:52:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Scientific Proof? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Apidologie (Germany) http://www.beekeeping.com/apidologie/apidologie_us.htm Journal of Apicultural Research (IBRA, England) http://www.ibra.org.uk/jar.html Asian bee journal (India) http://www.tamagawa.ac.jp/sisetu/gakujutu/honey/aaa/abj/e-abj.htm Honeybee Science (Japan£¬mostly in Japanese) http://www.tamagawa.ac.jp/sisetu/gakujutu/honey/aaa/abj/c-abj-1- 1.htm Below is a list of journals that I have seen bee papers published on (by no means a complete list), followed by their "impact" index (how often papers in each journal is cited, higher numbers indicate higher impact). NATURE 29.491 SCIENCE 24.595 PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AME 10.26 ANNUAL REVIEW OF ENTOMOLOGY 5.759 QUARTERLY REVIEW OF BIOLOGY 3.8 BEHAVIORAL ECOLOGY 2.869 PROCEEDINGS OF THE ROYAL SOCIETY OF LONDON SERIES B-BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES 2.755 INSECT MOLECULAR BIOLOGY 2.412 BEHAVIORAL ECOLOGY AND SOCIOBIOLOGY 2.324 INSECT BIOCHEMISTRY AND MOLECULAR BIOLOGY 2.288 ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR 2.148 GENERAL AND COMPARATIVE ENDOCRINOLOGY 1.839 INSECTES SOCIAUX 1.462 JOURNAL OF COMPARATIVE PHYSIOLOGY A-SENSORY NEURAL AND BEHAVIORAL PHYSIOLOG 1.433 JOURNAL OF COMPARATIVE PHYSIOLOGY B-BIOCHEMICAL SYSTEMIC AND ENVIRONMENTAL 1.363 JOURNAL OF EXPERIMENTAL ZOOLOGY 1.353 APIDOLOGIE 1.325 ARCHIVES OF INSECT BIOCHEMISTRY AND PHYSIOLOGY 1.28 NATURWISSENSCHAFTEN 1.279 JOURNAL OF THEORETICAL BIOLOGY 1.278 JOURNAL OF INSECT PHYSIOLOGY 1.251 ETHOLOGY 1.194 CANADIAN JOURNAL OF ZOOLOGY-REVUE CANADIENNE DE ZOOLOGIE 1.015 EXPERIMENTAL AND APPLIED ACAROLOGY 1.009 COMPARATIVE BIOCHEMISTRY AND PHYSIOLOGY A-MOLECULAR AND INTEGRATIVE PHYSIOL 0.916 JOURNAL OF ECONOMIC ENTOMOLOGY 0.909 PHYSIOLOGICAL ENTOMOLOGY 0.903 ENVIRONMENTAL ENTOMOLOGY 0.889 COMPARATIVE BIOCHEMISTRY AND PHYSIOLOGY B-BIOCHEMISTRY & MOLECULAR BIOLOGY 0.814 ENTOMOLOGIA EXPERIMENTALIS ET APPLICATA 0.787 JOURNAL OF INSECT BEHAVIOR 0.781 JOURNAL OF APICULTURAL RESEARCH 0.774 ZEITSCHRIFT FUR NATURFORSCHUNG SECTION B-A JOURNAL OF CHEMICAL SCIENCES 0.744 COMPARATIVE BIOCHEMISTRY AND PHYSIOLOGY C-PHARMACOLOGY TOXICOLOGY & ENDOCRI 0.655 ZEITSCHRIFT FUR NATURFORSCHUNG SECTION A-A JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL SCIENCES 0.529 APPLIED ENTOMOLOGY AND ZOOLOGY 0.495 SOCIOBIOLOGY 0.476 BEE WORLD 0.459 EUROPEAN JOURNAL OF ENTOMOLOGY 0.443 CANADIAN ENTOMOLOGIST 0.388 ENTOMOLOGICAL NEWS 0.366 JOURNAL OF AGRICULTURAL ENTOMOLOGY 0.329 ENTOMOLOGIA GENERALIS 0.24 Cheers, Zachary Huang Check out the Michigan State University ANR week Bee program! http://www.cyberbee.net/anr/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 13:56:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Bee Program at MSU March 7/8, 2003 please visit http://www.cyberbee.net/anr/anr2003.htm to see the 2003 program. for costs, directions and accommodations, etc, please see http://www.cyberbee.net/anr/ Zachary http://bees.msu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 17:31:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 24 Feb 2003 to 25 Feb 2003 (#2003-57) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/02/03 05:04:14 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Does it mean that the mite resistance to Apiguard will develop about 7 times sooner than to Apistan, having a much higher efficiency? Your opinion, please. >> Using these figures, the converse could be true, with Apiguard lasting 7 times as long as Apistan, as the selection pressure is so much less. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 17:42:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garrett M Martin Subject: Re: (Bee-L) Colony Records MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who would like to use a spreadsheet but do not have one there is a free ware program called 602PC Suites. This suites contains both a word processor and a spread sheet. The spread sheet is compatible with the Excel format. I have found this spread sheet easy to use and you will find the programing of it to be similar to the programing of Microsoft spread sheets. They also have a database but for a fee. You should be able to find it on www.downloads.com If not e-mail me and I will send you a link to get it. Garrett Martin Willets Lake Apiaries :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:35:35 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Oldest man in USA (112) was a beekeeper until 107 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The oldest guy in the US was a beekeeper, and still eats pollen every day. Mere coincidence? >From the Associated Press: February 26, 2003 -- BALDWINSVILLE, N.Y. - A teaspoon of bee pollen with each meal - and an occasional nip of whiskey in the morning - is the secret to a life spanning three centuries, said America's oldest man. "It's helped my rheumatism and my arthritis. I know it hasn't hurt me any," Fred Hale Sr., 112, said yesterday at an assisted-living community 15 miles northwest of Syracuse. Hale, who was born in 1898, became the nation's oldest man after 113-year- old John McMorran died of heart failure Monday in Lakeland, Fla. Until he was 107, Hale lived independently and drove a car. He walked a mile each day, mowed his lawn, tended a vegetable garden and fruit trees and kept honey bees. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:11:13 -0600 Reply-To: Al Liepins Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Al Liepins Subject: Re: Colony Recordkeeping Forms/Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Contact Glenmar Gardens at beetracking@mindspring.com for a shareware program "Apiary Tracking System" that works real well. It keeps track of Income,Expense,Apiary/Colony data for $25.00 Al Liepins :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:01:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Peter said: Two very important distinctions must be made. One, is the product a pesticide? This is basically anything that is used to kill pests, but generally refers to toxic substances, because non-toxic substances seldom work against pests (there are exceptions). Let us put formic acid to Peters two important distinctions. Peter said: is the product a pesticide. The correct question is: IS THE PRODUCT FORMIC ACID A REGISTERED PESTICIDE and the answer is NO. Two, is this commercial use? Home use of substances is far less regulated than commercial use. You may use things around your house in unconventional ways that would not be legally permissable in a commercial setting. As I posted treating ones own bees ( from 1 to a million hives) would not be against any label and as long as the beekeeper is not selling to others a product advertised as a *pesticide varroa control* One is not breaking any laws I HAVE BEEN TOLD (by people which should know what they are talking about) that using formic acid, salt or FGMO in his or her hive/hives as a homeopathic cure. If however I wish to sell my home remidy as a *pesticide for control of varroa* then I need to talk to the EPA and register the product ( Every email on the subject I recieved privately said this!) . Will somebody with greater knowledge than me and my close friends from a list of over one thousand people (and EPA/FDA monitored i have been told) please step forward and prove me wrong so I can stand corrected and we will all know if what I have been told is correct. Right now I do not have plans to use any formic acid product but things could change and I would like to know the truth of the matter. Hopefully someone from the EPA/ Fda will comment *if* they believe differently. I welcome such information as long as they are willing to post the proof of their logic (such as legislation). Sincerely, Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 16:21:32 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Oldest man in USA (112) was a beekeeper until 107 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi James & All, > The oldest guy in the US was a beekeeper, and still eats pollen every day. > Mere coincidence? <<>> Hale, who was born in 1898, became the nation's oldest man after 113-year- old John McMorran > died of heart failure Monday in Lakeland, Fla. > Probably a coincidence, It would be less of a coincidence if John was also a beekeeper who regularly ate pollen. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Black Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 17:59:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Goetze Subject: need correct term for vectored virus [BEE-L] need correct term for vectored virus Mites are referred to as the 'vectors', i.e., capable of 'spreading' the viral particles from one host to another. In the field, Varroa are highly effective vectors of Deformed Wing Virus (DWV). DWV has been found in concentrations within adult female mites at many times the level in their host honeybee's blood. The hypothesis is that the DWV survives and replicates within the mite. This is very interesting, if validated. The effect of 'concentration' of viral particles as a consequence of mite feeding should not be ruled out. However, some researchers appear convinced that concentration effects do not account for the excessive virus titers in the mites. Another interesting virus is Acute Bee Paralysis Virus (ABPV). This virus is spread by adult bee salivary secretions. There is an association with ABPV and Varroa. Bee colonies under very high infestation pressure by Varroa will experience losses of adult and larvae. ABPV causes rapid death, so establishment within bee colonies is difficult. Is Varroa a vector for ABPV? Likely. Most of the honeybee viruses belong to a group of nameless insect RNA viruses. There's quite a few and likely many more yet to be isolated. Why so many? It could be that there were multiple evolutionary pathways of infectability within this group, co-evolutionary relationships, or perhaps a generalization for insect hosts evolved independently amongst group members. It should be noted that bees can carry viral loads with NO disease. Humans, too. Best regards, Richard Goetze :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 00:18:00 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Imports & Exports/another perspective MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Kilty said: > our local project to develop varroa tolerance, in its first year still, is designed > to use open mating with drone flooding and queen larvae exchange between > groups. This will be a slower approach than using II but should maintain > genetic diversity... One thing I have never clearly understood about "breeding better bees" is the difference between bees and any other "hybrid". If one wants to develop and retain a consistent set of traits, how can one do without a "closed" program and instrumental insemination? A phrase kept popping into my head as I read this thread. It was "regression to the mean". As luck would have it, I still have my college notebooks. Francis Galton (of Galton Laboratory fame) coined the phrase "regression to the mean". Galton conducted experiments using groups of sweet pea seeds. He computed the average diameter of 100 seeds produced by each sweet pea plant. The smallest pea seeds had larger offspring. The largest seeds had smaller offspring. In another study, Galton dug up the heights of 205 sets of parents and their adult children. If both parents were short, their children were slightly taller. If both parents were tall, the children were slightly shorter. These two experiments lead Galton to coin the phrase "regression to the mean". What does one do to avoid this phenomenon, except requeen with the progeny of inseminated queens from a closed-population controlled breeding program? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:55:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: help with grant forms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am thinking of sending a hundred dollars to a couple hundred dollars (fee) and a filled out grant form for a beekeeping research grant (up to $200,000) to help solve a complex beekeeping problem. Ten copies have to be sent with the application (why the heck all the need for copies). Does not the government own a copy machine? Kidding! Filling out the forms is not a problem for me but I need an help to word things so the people (not beekeepers) approving the grant will understand the project. Many on BEE-L work at universities and apply for grants all the time. Any advice for a beekeeper trying to get funds to feed his family while doing research? Is there a government or state office which might help with wording on forms? A private company which does grant wording? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 01:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Billson Organization: hopeless...my honeybees are better at it Subject: Re: Oldest man in USA (112) was a beekeeper until 107 In-Reply-To: <01C2DDCE.3CB91840.jfischer@supercollider.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 07:35:35PM -0500, James Fischer penned: > >From the Associated Press: [snip] > ... I know it hasn't hurt me any," Fred Hale Sr., 112, ^^^ [snip] > ... Hale, who was born in 1898, became the nation's oldest man ... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Either one of these is a typo or the AP doesn't know basic math. :-) Fred was either born 1890 (91 depending on his birthday) or he's only 105. Given he apparently drove until 107, I'll guess the 1898 is a typo. I hope I can still drive, walk, garden and, of course, keep bees when I'm 107--bee pollen or not! :-) bob -- bob billson email: reb@bhive.dhs.org ham: kc2wz /) reb@elbnet.com beekeeper -8|||} "Níl aon tinteán mar do thinteán féin." --Dorothy Linux geek \) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 05:48:40 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > As I posted treating ones own bees ( from 1 to a million hives) would not > be against any label and as long as the beekeeper is not selling to others > a product advertised as a *pesticide varroa control* > One is not breaking any laws I HAVE BEEN TOLD (by people which should know > what they are talking about) that using formic acid, salt or FGMO in his or > her hive/hives as a homeopathic cure. While this may well be strictly true for the special case of Formic Acid, I think it should be made clear that Formic Acid has a number of very specific advantages over most all other possible "alternative mite treatments" that might be used by a beekeeper in the USA: a) The U.S. Food and Drug Administration permits ethyl formate and its hydrolysis products, formic acid and ethanol, to be used as synthetic flavoring agents in foods per 21 CFR 172.515. b) Better yet, formic acid is "Generally Recognized As Safe" ("GRAS") in foods by the US FDA. c) Formic acid is said to occur naturally in honey at levels up to 138 parts per million, and is also found in vinegar, wines, beer, cheese, and even in the human body. (In biochem class, I think I dozed off when the instructor started droning on about "Formate pathways", so I don't know much more than the fact that formic acid is found in amniotic fluid in the womb. At least our wives and kids are safe from varroa...) So, we have a special case of a very volatile chemical where any residues in honey would be hard to differ from "naturally occurring formates", and the chemical at issue is both "GRAS", and an approved food additive. The odds of this set of circumstances being true for other items are just about nil. Peter Borst (who I agree with more often than he might like) said: >> is the product a pesticide. Bob answered: > The correct question is: > IS THE PRODUCT FORMIC ACID A REGISTERED PESTICIDE and the answer is NO. I'll try to answer the question "as asked", rather than addressing different questions. :) In the US, the EPA decides what is and is not a "pesticide", and they can be very stubborn about imposing their opinions on others. In general, if something is USED as a pesticide, then it >>IS<< "a pesticide" under the EPA's definitions. To drive this point home, note that the EPA Office of Pesticide Programs was the group that published the original "exemption from the requirement of a tolerance for residues" for formic acid, which can be read here: http://www.epa.gov/docs/fedrgstr/EPA-PEST/1997/February/Day-05/p2712.htm So, technically, it is possible to make an accusation under a strict reading of the law of "using an unregistered pesticide" if one were to use formic acid as a pesticide against mites. The good news is that you would have a very handy defense - you could claim that your sole intent was to "flavor" the honey with the formic, and that any "pest impact" from the process was an unintentional side effect. If you could say this with a straight face, the "pesticide" case would be dismissed hands down. Also, formic acid is not "good" for the bees in of itself, and therefore, cannot really be called "homeopathic". When it kills mites, it also carries the risk of nearly unavoidable collateral damage in the form some small percentage of killed brood and dead bees, even under optimal conditions. jim (who is a "Keyboard Commando", and writes more before 6:00 am than most people write all day) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 06:05:53 -0500 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: Oldest man in USA (112) was a beekeeper until 107 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The coincidence was probably both men drank good whiskey. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 07:54:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion James writes: In general, if something is USED as a pesticide, then it >>IS<< "a pesticide" under the EPA's definitions. Peter: That is the point I was making. We may not agree with this definiton; yet -- if you use vinegar to kill weeds, then it is a pesticide but if you shake it on your salad, it isn't. I rashly stated Bee Go is not a pesticide. I should have said Bee Go is not used by beekeepers as a pesticide, therefore it is not regulated as such. The history of bee repellents began with carbolic acid, which at one time was considered safe to add to food. It tainted the honey and was very dangerous, causing sever burns to the skin. So, people began to look for alternatives. As I recall, thousands of legal food additives were tried and benzaldehyde (almond flavor) was found to work. Well, it works, but not that well (in my opinion). Then somebody stumbled upon butyric acid. Butyric occurs naturally in butter and is a component of imitation butter flavor. So in small quantities it is a food additive, though in large quantities it *may* be a pesticide. ----------- Flavorful fatty acids play an important role in the flavor of butter and are present at varied concentrations. Although long-chain fatty acids are present at higher concentrations in butter, they do not make a significant contribution to flavor. Short-chain fatty acids (SCFA), on the other hand, do play an important role in butter's flavor. Typically, SCFA are found in the serum portion of butter (aqueous solution of all non-fat components) where their flavor potential is stronger. They occur below their Flavor Threshold Value (FTV): the minimum concentration level below which aroma or taste is imperceptible. Despite low concentrations, SCFA react in a synergistic and additive manner to provide characteristic flavors found in butter. *Butyric acid* is the most widely known and most potent SCFA and is attributed to providing intensity to fatty acid-type flavors associated with butter. Butter also contains a variety of fatty acid precursors of 4-cis-heptenal, a compound which provides butter with a creamy flavor. --------- butyric acid Found chiefly in butter, this natural acid not only produces butter's distinctive flavor but also causes the rancid smell in spoiled butter. Butyric acid, also called butanoic acid, is also found in some fruits and is produced synthetically to be used as a flavoring agent in various food products. --------- EASTMAN n-Butyric Anhydride, Kosher EASTMAN n-Butyric Anhydride is a water-white liquid that hyrolyzes to butryic acid. It has a minimum assay of 98%. It is available as a kosher product for use in food as a reactant only. All kosher products produced by EASTMAN are manufactured under rabbinical supervision in full accordance with Jewish dietary law. List of Applications Flavorings Pesticides Pharmaceuticals etc. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 07:59:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> b) Better yet, formic acid is "Generally Recognized As Safe" ("GRAS") in foods by the US FDA. c) Formic acid is said to occur naturally in honey at levels up to 138 parts per million, and is also found in vinegar, wines, beer, cheese < < < What do you know about oxalic acid in this regard? From what I have been reading, oxalic is as effective, or more effective than formic, and easier to apply consistently in some circumstances. I have some oxalic and formic resource links at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/formic/default.htm (and am always looking for more good links to add there). allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:43:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Tri-County Beekeeper's Association Workshop In-Reply-To: <200302271254.h1RCsVl4019459@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Is anyone planning on attending the Beekeeping Workshop this ]Saturday in Wooster, OH? My wife and I will be there. Over 600 are pre registered as of yesterday. I'd encourage anyone who is able to attend, it is very worthwhile. I'll also be bringing with me two young beekeepers and entrepreneurs who will be venders at the workshop. For those interested, information on the workshop is at: http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/beelab/news/ -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:40:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Tracheal Mite Heads Up -- Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's that time of year again. As you may recall from previous discussions here, we do mite tests for other beekeepers on a small scale, here in Alberta. We get 300 a 300 bee sample in alcohol and do a varroa wash, check 20 for tracheal, and do a nosema test, all for $10+tax. Of course, it is a quick and dirty test and we don't guarantee its accuracy, but it is an easy and affordable 'litmus test'. It won't give you exact numbers, but it will spot an obvious wreck about to happen. We'll do larger and more thorough samples, too, but this one is popular and, as you can see here, it can show when something needs doing, and soon. Combined with natural mite drops (another simple, easy test), it is a good start on IPM. I recently received the first batch of samples from an Alberta beekeeper who winters in British Columbia and was surprised to find that he had higher tracheal mite loads than I would have expected. He also had one varroa show up in the wash although he treated with blue shop towels last spring and fall, and with Checkmite+ in the fall. He consented to my mentioning this so that others will be sure to be aware that just treating and trusting no longer works. Monitoring is the cornerstone of IPM and although I am sure he is not happy to have mites, he is very happy to know in time to do something about them. One thing I should also point out is that the bulk of his queens come annually from a producer who told me in the past (and I passed it on) that he was selecting his queens towards tracheal resistance. I don't know what happened here, but to me the message is very clear. Test your bees no matter what you used for treatment, or where you bought your queens. More info. and these lab results will be posted on my website, as time permits. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:53:50 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Heads Up -- Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen's mail as part quoted........"He also had one varroa show up in the wash although he treated with blue shop towels last spring and fall, and with Checkmite+ in the fall."..... "Although" suggests that you expected to see no mites. Having seen one varroa suggests what to you? Knowing that total elimination of the V.mite is practically impossible using accepted treatments, why do you use the word "although"? Does seeing one mite only: - prove that treatment is not 100% efficient - or that the colony is infested at "dangerous" levels? The general message of the mail is an excellent timely warning of not being too complacent. More thoughts on why you chose the word (as you do most carefully in most instances) - "although" Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:23:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tracheal Mite Heads Up -- Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > "Although" suggests that you expected to see no mites. More thoughts on why you chose the word (as you do most carefully in most instances) - "although" < < < You are right. I do try to choose my words. When I write for publication and my website, I write and rewrite, then go back the next day and pick up what I missed the first day, but on these posts to BEE-L, you'll often find small errors. Nonetheless, this was not one of those -- even if I could have separated the treatments better in that sentence. The reason I used that word here is that these small samples are very approximate. Not seeing any mites in samples this size is more meaningful -- to me -- than finding one, or more. That one mite could mean many things. If we had seen none, then we could have more easily assumed that the treatments had been effective, but with this mite showing up in a small sample, the possibility of resistance to coumaphos, one or more hives having been missed in treatment, etc. have to be considered, and more monitoring to see what is happening is needed sooner than if we did not see any. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:56:33 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick said: > What do you know about oxalic acid in this regard? From what I have > been reading, oxalic is as effective, or more effective than formic, and > easier to apply consistently in some circumstances. I guess the best description for oxalic acid would be "a naturally occurring toxin", found in very low levels in many foods". It certainly is NOT on the "Generally Recognized As Safe" list. And while it may be is "easier to use" than Formic, I don't think it would be easier to "register as a pesticide" than formic. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:55:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Miller Subject: Coumaphos I have been working with a beekeeper with a lot more hives than me that uses Checkmite. We have been removing the strips. Bee catalogs sell a nitrile glove saying they are the only approved glove to wear for this. I obtained some from work and they break real easy. Question 1: per the MSDS plain old chemical-resistant gloves ought to be okay? The MSDS says to use goggles to prevent dust getting into eyes. Q2: Any comments on this? The MSDS says that the exposure at the end use of this product should be minimal. Q3: What is the "end use" of this product and is this statment true? Q4: Basically I have some OCD traits that will serve me well to not be poisoned by this product. What should I know about Checkmite as I work with it? The guy I work with is alive and well, but I am curious what others do as far as personal protection. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:08:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen wrote: "From what I have been reading, oxalic is as effective, or more effective than formic, and easier to apply consistently in some circumstances." Just thought i'd humbly share some experience on this. There is one big difference between formic and oxalic: formic will kill mites in sealed brood and oxalic will not. I have been using oxalic dripping for two years and the whole process of applying it feels safe compared to handling high concentration formic acid. I use 3.2% oxalic acid ia 50/50 sugar syrup and drip 25-30 ml per colony, depending on it's strenght. This is done in october at temperatures around 5-10 celsius. You have to wait until the colony is brood free in the fall in order to get good results (95% mite kill). If the mite load is already high in august, the winter bees might need an earlier treatment in order to be healthy and make it through the winter as a good strong colony. I have been combining oxalic dripping with drone brood removal in the spring. This is obviously impossible for any large beekeeping operation since it's labor intensive and you get a huge messy stack of drone brood. I can assure you that drone brood removal is great for getting rid of lots of mites in the early season. What i've heard is that the bees will sometimes panic and boil out of the hive when exposed to formic acid. Application and success rate is highly depending on temperature and air circulation within the hive. Maybe someone else with first hand experience can share some more information on this. This written from Stockholm, Sweden. Climate similar to nothern US states and carnolian bees (little brood after sept 1st). Sincerely /Mats Andersson ------------------------------------------------- WebMail från Tele2 http://www.tele2.se ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:21:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Formic acid discussion What i've heard is that the bees will sometimes panic and boil out of the hive when exposed to formic acid. Application and success rate is highly depending on temperature and air circulation within the hive. Maybe someone else with first hand experience can share some more information on this. I have been involved in extensive formic acid trials at a university over the past 3 years, involving hundreds of hives. I have never seen the bees boil out. In fact, I have never seen any harm done, aside from an occasional bee getting caught inside the plastic bag we used to contain the pad. We used a fiber board pad soaked with formic, placed above the frames inside a one inch deep rim. The cover and rim is duct taped in place to keep the fumes from escaping. But it is up to the bee industry to get formic on the market. I don't know what the status of that effort is these days. pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:55:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Formic acid discussion In-Reply-To: <20030228100835.PTEW26670.fep02-svc.swip.net@mta-int.swip.n et> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >You have to wait until the colony is brood free in the fall in order to >get good results (95% mite kill). If the mite load is already high in >august, the winter bees might need an earlier treatment in order to be >healthy and make it through the winter as a good strong colony. > >This written from Stockholm, Sweden. Climate similar to nothern US states >and carnolian bees (little brood after sept 1st). >/Mats Andersson I keep bees in the Northern US, 12 miles from the Canadian border. Our broodless period never starts in September. Most years the queens shut down about mid-October, and in warm autumns, I've seen queens laying into November. Treating this late would certainly be a problem here. Varroa counts are high by this time of the year, and I would think many colonies would crash. You mention treating twice, once in August, and once when brood-less. I read the NZ use of Oxalic that Allen posted awhile back. They say not to treat more that once. Have you treated twice and had good results, Mats? Did treating twice have any bad effects on the bees? How did the colonies treated twice winter? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:57:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Flavoring with Formic Acid In-Reply-To: <200302280500.h1S4nglE017834@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed James Fischer writes: "In general, if something is USED as a pesticide, then it >>IS<< "a pesticide" under the EPA's definitions. To drive this point home, note that the EPA Office of Pesticide Programs was the group that published the original "exemption from the requirement of a tolerance for residues" for formic acid, which can be read here: http://www.epa.gov/docs/fedrgstr/EPA-PEST/1997/February/Day-05/p2712.htm So, technically, it is possible to make an accusation under a strict reading of the law of "using an unregistered pesticide" if one were to use formic acid as a pesticide against mites. The good news is that you would have a very handy defense - you could claim that your sole intent was to "flavor" the honey with the formic, and that any "pest impact" from the process was an unintentional side effect. If you could say this with a straight face, the "pesticide" case would be dismissed hands down. The above seems right on target. I asked a colleague who is trained in law and deals with pesticide issues about using formic acid. He told me it's all about "intent." That if one uses anything with intent to kill a pest (mite, fungus, etc.) then it becomes a pesticide use regulated under FIFRA. Using it as a food flavoring appears to avoid that issue. Let's see, perhaps we can convince the consumer using a targeted ad campaign: For sale: Formic Acid Flavored Honey--Direct from the hive to you this environmentally friendly honey product has a number of uses both in and outside the bee hive (need to develop a list here--no pesticide intentions please). We hope you enjoy this unique product! Dr. Malcolm T. Sanford Retired Extension Apiculturist, Professor Emeritus University of Florida, P.O. Box 110620, Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 To subscribe to the revamped Apis newsletter, see: http://apis.shorturl.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:32:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/28/03 6:10:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, man@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE writes: > What I've heard is that the bees will sometimes panic and boil out of the > hive when exposed to formic acid. Application and success rate is highly > depending on temperature and air circulation within the hive. Maybe someone > else with first hand experience can share some more information on this. > I have been using formic acid and have not seen any adverse reaction from the bees. I have experienced no queen loss. I use the method Peter mentions in his post but would add that the taping of the top board does not imply that there is NO ventilation for the full bottom entrance is left open throughout treatment. I follow Dr Medhat Nasr's development with the Ontario Beekeepers association here in Canada. that was developed with using a perforated vegetable storage bag as made by Ziploc to control the concentration of the acid fumes and carefully watched the temperature. The bees either ignore the plastic bag holding the formic acis soaked pad or build comb merrily all over it. If anyone has specific questions about how I do it, I can field them even off line. Regards, george :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:44:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/28/03 8:50:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, mpalmer@TOGETHER.NET writes: > Have you treated twice and had good results, Mats? Did treating > twice have any bad effects on the bees? How did the colonies treated twice > winter? I keep bees just north of the Canadian border in Eastern Ontario. I treat with Formic acid only in the Spring April/May depending on the temperature. One application seems to be okay but I now I use Piston in the fall to have two control that act quite differently and thus reduce or eliminate the chance of developing resistance in 'my' Varroa. ..george :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:17:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: I have been involved in extensive formic acid trials at a university over the past 3 years, involving hundreds of hives. Can you comment on results and observations? We used a fiber board pad soaked with formic, placed above the frames inside a one inch deep rim. The cover and rim is duct taped in place to keep the fumes from escaping. Sounds like the Medhat N. method? Am I correct in guessing so ? Taping the top is OK but what did you do to prevent the fumes (heavier than air ) from flowing out the front entrance? In my humble opinion fumes dropping and flowing out the front entrance is one reason many times treatments fail. Peter said: But it is up to the bee industry to get formic on the market. I don't know what the status of that effort is these days. As soon as bee equipment suppliers can figure a way to make money on sale to beekeepers movement should happen fast. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:10:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I keep bees in the Northern US, 12 miles from the Canadian border. > Our broodless period never starts in September. Most years the queens > shut down about mid-October, and in warm autumns, I've seen queens > laying into November. That's true for us too, here in Alberta. We've discussed someother methods, such as vapourization of oxalic ( http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary111002.htm#oxalic ), and in Europe, some are using towels saturated with oxalic and (I think) sugar on the top bars. Anyone reading the German magazine could maybe tell us more about this. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:57:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: steve noble Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst writes: "We used a fiber board pad soaked with formic, placed above the frames inside a one inch deep rim. The cover and rim is duct taped in place to keep the fumes from escaping." What I have heard about formic acid is that the potential risk is mainly to the handler as it can be a fairly caustic substance depending, I suppose, on the concentration. I have also heard that government acceptance has as much to do with development of a safe means of dispensing or packaging it as it has to do with anything else. Peter seems to have found what to him is a safe and effective way to work with Formic Acid. Not that a government agency would necessarily agree. Never the less I would like to hear more specific details as to how to safely handle this product. I have a feeling that there are a lot of beekeepers out there that would like to give formic acid a try and it would be a good thing if someone with experience posted a clear "how to". Also I have yet to read or hear where a person might purchase a small amount of formic acid for say "flavoring of honey". Thanks to all. Steve Noble :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:27:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Subject: Formic acid discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed George, Thanks for the info on formic use in Canada. you wrote: the full bottom entrance is left open throughout treatment. * Right, it won't do to close them in four 6 weeks ! Also, we did a side by side study of formic with regular and open screen bottoms. The open screen did not *seem* to affect the effectiveness (not published yet, so don't ask). you also wrote: but I now I use Piston in the fall * Huh? Never heard of that one ! pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:39:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Sv: Re: [BEE-L] Formic acid discussion In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030228073604.00b3f800@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer asked: "Have you treated twice and had good results, Mats? Did treating twice have any bad effects on the bees? How did the colonies treated twice winter? I only treated once in mid october. The bees wintered fine, but i feel relying on oxalic is risky. I will be using Apistan this coming fall. This is our third summer with varroa, and we're still in the early phase where some beekeepers will fail to learn (or accept) the new ways of beekeeping and their colonies, i suspect, will break down and deliver lots of mites to those who survive. For this reason, i'll use Apistan. I'm no scientist like some of you guys on the list. This is just my conclusion of what needs to be done to keep the bees healthy. A combination of formic and oxalic might do the trick when we're in a more stable state, which i've been told will follow the initial chaos years. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:39:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion In-Reply-To: <200302281221.h1SCKRl6024392@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter wrote: "I have been involved in extensive formic acid trials at a university over the past 3 years, involving hundreds of hives. I have never seen the bees boil out." OK, sorry. Whoever told me they boiled out probably made a mistake then. As i said, this was second-hand information. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:09:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Frey Subject: March 22 seminar in Albany NY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Spring into Beekeeping! The Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association (SABA) will host a spring seminar March 22, 2003, 9:00 – 4:30 on the State University of New York (SUNY) Albany campus. Dr. Nicholas Calderone, Associate Professor of Entomology of Cornell University will speak on Spring and Summer Management and recent developments at Dyce Labs, where his latest research deals with IPM strategies against Varroa mites. His second presentation will deal with spring and summer management. Kirk Webster, northern Vermont commercial beekeeper and queen breeder, will tell us about Genetics and Management for a Northern Apiary. By breeding his own queens from survivor hives, Kirk has been able to bring 100 hives through since 1998 without any mite treatments. Dr. John Skinner, Associate Professor of Entomology at the University of Tennessee, will speak about his and others’ research on physical, genetic, and isolation techniques of IPM against Varroa mites, and on the lighter side of pollination. Dr. James Tew (Jim Tew) is an Associate Professor of Entomology at Ohio State University and a well-known author of several books and innumerable Bee Culture articles. His first talk will be “Which queen for which hive?” and his second “What is it about beekeeping, anyway?” This is a question we all probably have wondered about. A raffle or silent auction of numerous items donated by dealers will take place as well. Cost : $25 per person or $40 for couples. After March 8, cost is $35 per person or $50 for a couple. Cost includes a morning coffee/snack break. At lunch, attendees can buy their lunches nearby. Hotel: A “block” of discounted rooms is reserved at the Marriott Fairfield Inn, just across the street. When people call to reserve rooms, they should call by March 7 and mention the "beekeeping seminar" to get the discount. The rooms are available for March 21 and/or March 22. Marriott Fairfield 518-435-1800, #1383 Washington Ave., Albany, NY 12206 $74 + tax = $83 for non-smoking room with 2 queen size beds. Hotel has a pool, whirlpool, and complimentary Continental breakfast. I hope to see you on the first day of spring, Anne Frey, SABA President annef@capital.net (518)895-8744 4808 Skyline Dr. Delanson NY 12053 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:04:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > OK, sorry. Whoever told me they boiled out probably made a mistake > then. As i said, this was second-hand information. Nope, my under high temperatures, or too high concentrations the bees can be chased out of the hive. Otherwise, the bees just draw away a bit from the pads (I use the Dri-loc 50 pads - see http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2000/diary101000.htm#Formic and http://www.honeybeeworld.com/formic/default.htm ) allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:07:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Starting on Foundation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adony sent me some material this morning and I made up a page at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/adony.htm showing how foundation compared to drawn combs in two tests. It's interesting, but YMMV. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:14:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Florida Inspections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could someone bring me up to date on the inspections issue in the State of Florida? Lionel Evans North Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:49:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Handling Checkmite Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all, There has been some discussion on the handling of Checkmite. Although we have discussed this in the past it may be good to think about it again. First let me say that Checkmite is a useful tool, but is not like anything else we (legally) handled as beekeepers. You don't want to come in contact with this stuff. When I do use it I have a method that keeps the possibility of contact very low. I will describe that in a second but first I should clarify something. I have worked in the chemical industry for 25 years. Not only have I worn protective gloves, I have been in the entire suit (when I was young and dumb) responding to hazardous materials emergencies. As a "survivor" I now teach and tell the "younger guys" what to do. Now that you know I work in one of least trusted industries in the world I might as well give you one more fact. I author (for my company) Material Safety Data Sheets. Information found on MSDSs has caused many discussions on this list over the year! s. (I could spend hours talking about MSDSs and what they really say.) I only relay this information in order to show that I am somewhat qualified to speak on this subject. The first time I was applying the strips I used the required gloves to handle them. Immediately I noticed some problems with this method. In my area mite treatments are applied in August or early September, usually the hottest time of the year. Wearing any type of glove in these conditions is very uncomfortable. This is an important statement. When I teach hazmat there is a section on personal protection. I always start with a quote from Robert Browning. "A man in armor is a slave to that armor". If you are uncomfortable, you tend to rush and do things without thinking. You also tend to rely too much on the armor. To illustrate this watch someone who works bees completely suited up. Then ask them to remove some of their protection or at least their gloves. Nine times out of ten, they will work much more carefully because of their "loss of armor". The other main problem is the outside of the glove is contaminated. We make a lot of unconscious movements with our hands. ANYTHING you touch with these gloves is now also contaminated. Hive tool, smoker, paint leg, pockets are all things we may contact. I noticed this with my smoker. There was visible residue on the bellows. Unless you are going to open each hive, stop to put on the gloves and add the strips, and then immediately remove them without touching anything else, you are going to spread contamination. Most of us are not that disciplined. The method I use is to decide how many strips I will need for a given number of colonies. Working outdoors and wearing gloves I open the packets and remove the strips. I then place them in an appropriate, properly labeled container that has a lid. I make sure all the "hinges" on the strips are loose and nothing is stuck together. I can then wash (decontaminate) the gloves and remove them. When I am at a colony that is to be treated I use long handled pliers to grab a strip from the container an place it in the correct spot. I still wear gloves for this operation but the chances of contact has been greatly reduced. The pliers are stored in a pouch taped to the container. These materials all get washed at the end of the day. To remove strips I just reverse the process. The goal is not to rely on the gloves as your primary defense, but to use them as a back up to good procedures. One last point. I have worked with some very nasty chemicals over the years. I treat them all the same: WITH RESPECT. I learned that as long as you respect them you can handle them safely. The key is knowledge and common sense. I long for the day when we won't need all these chemicals, but until then we need to handle them correctly and follow all the directions. Ron Disclaimer time: The above comments are mine and do not reflect those of my employer. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:54:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hoguet Subject: Re: help with grant forms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For writing guides, visit the following links: · U of Michigan (http://www.research.umich.edu/research/proposals/proposal_dev/pwg/pwgpag e.html ) Directions are clear and to the point; excellent for all disciplines and funding agencies · Additional links q The Foundation Center (http://fdncenter.org/learn/shortcourse/prop1.html ) Good outline for foundation proposals q A Guide to Proposal Planning and Writing (http://www.oryxpress.com/miner.htm ) Especially useful for foundation inquiry letter, proposal development, and examples :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:22:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Miller Subject: Re: Handling Checkmite Strips Ron, What about the MSDS statement about the product being gone at the time they are removed? What does this mean for handling? Thank you for your input. My training as a nurse and as a chemist (BA) appreciate it! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:42:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/28/03 12:27:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, peterborst@PERSIANARTS.ORG writes: > you also wrote: > but I now I use Piston in the fall > > * Huh? Never heard of that one ! > > pb > > Sorry folks I must have been asleep I meant Apistan. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:45:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Formic acid discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/28/03 12:28:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, man@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE writes: > OK, sorry. Whoever told me they boiled out probably made a mistake then. As > i said, this was second-hand information. > > /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden > > Mats I am sure that the bees would boil out if the concentration of the fumes got too strong! This could happen I am sure if it got too hot and the beekeeper did not remove the pads, or if the pads were not in the perforated plastic bags. ..george :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:22:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Amaranth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I contracted some hives out for polliantion of canola and seed clover today. The organic farmer asked about bees and his acres of "Amaranth". I know Amaranth is a wheat type plant and can be used for grain and the leaves are edible and sold in health food stores but I do not know if bees get nectar or pollen from the plant. I suspect not but wonder if the list has information. I could not find any information on the net about bees and amaranth but did not spend a great deal of time looking. I have never been asked to polinate canola in Missouri before either. Any tips on number of hives per acre and placement. Is surplus honey a possibility. Thanks in advance! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:55:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hoguet Subject: Re: help on grant forms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I made a mistake in my last post. The URLs for the University of Michigan and are out of date. The correct URLs are: http://www.research.umich.edu/proposals/proposals.html and http://www.research.umich.edu/proposals/pwg/pwgcontents.html The correct URL for www.oryxpress.com 's books on grant writing is http://www.oryxpress.com/search/subject_search.asp?list=GRAN&sub_category =Grants The Foundation Center's URL is correct. I apologize for the errors. Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::