From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:24:35 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E178249044 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZe4011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0305D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 200401 Lines: 4272 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Hived swarm had other ideas Robin said: > The more trouble it is however the less I feel > inclined to spend my time at my risk for most > often a poor lot of bees. Ignoring the obvious question as to why anyone who's free time was so scarce would have time to keep bees at all, let alone go chasing after swarms... ...how about at least leaving behind a "kill bottle" with one of the queen mandibular pheromone or nazarov pheromone lures? Easy to make from a 2-liter soda bottle, and "stragglers" can be just as scary as the full swarm to people who are suddenly more aware of bees than they ever have been before. While this seems cruel, the stragglers are doomed anyway, so this at least limits their period of confusion. Spray-paint exterior of bottle black, cut a 1-inch hole just below the neck of the bottle. Hang lure on a string, punch hole in cap, insert string, tie a knot so that lure hangs 1 inch from cap. Fill 1/2 full with water, cap bottle. Suspend bottle with string or duct tape. Later, return, remove bottle, wash out. Lure can be reused. But most "clients" invite me in for a drink while the bees sort themselves out and find their way into the transport package, so I will hoist the transport package close to the swarm's original cluster position if tree limbs allow. (Yet another reason to abandon woodenware for cardboard boxes for "rescuing" swarms.) Join the ASPCA today! (The American Society for the Plundering of Clusters of Apis). jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:50:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Hived swarm had other ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin & all > So perhaps Jim's idea of fitting cone escapes as entries is > the best. The more trouble it is however the less I feel inclined > to spend my time at my risk for most often a poor lot of bees. I have always considered that the taking of swarms is important PR for beekeeing and beekeepers in general. In these days the formal education system does very little about bees, and bees are no longer common in back yards so that children do not become accustomed to them. So when these children become adults they propagate their own lack of knowledge in the form of instilling dread and fear in their own offspring. By responsibly collecting swarms, we help to redress the balance. I find Robin's use of the words "a poor lot of bees" unusual... In my beekeeping career I have collected just short of 1,000 swarms... Not one of these has proved to have disease (other than a few carrying Acarine). They have been of mixed temper, but I have found that even 'evil' bees will draw foundation into comb for me in the interim before I can replace their queen. I have also found multiple swarms useful for populating mating nucs. Getting back to the swarm collecting box... There is a neat way of ensuring all the late returning bees are collected in the box. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/standardswarm.html gives details near the bottom of the page. On a similar page... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/marburg.html The Marburg Swarm box is described and this can be utilised to combine several swarms that have been housed on frames for a few days (for use as a mating nuc workforce) and at the same time filter out drones and queens. The tedium and effort in making these boxes is rapidly repayed in ease of use. You get the added PR benefit of 'looking professional' whilst collecting the bees. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:27:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards said: " Just for the record I have bees in 22 apiaries and there are many other > beekeepers in this area. Not so sure about feral colonies - my view is that > they were all killed by varroa and we are now seeing the sites inhabited by > escaped swarms - which then die out - are replaced by more escaped swarms > and so on. Should we define these as feral?" Escaped swarms are no longer managed by man in any way, so surely count as feral. They develop full-blown disease and infect managed hives in their area, making it virtually impossible for us ever totally eliminate diseases, even if beekeepers 'saw the light' and suddenly became co-operative. Peter's 120 hives seems to offer a good sample for testing the theory that just a few hives at random can suddenly show abnormal high Varooa infestation (due probably to robbing an infected colony) , if all the hives are individually monitored? Can I ask if they are? Robin Dartington > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:56:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Vaughan queried the logic when I said : "If you treat only when needed, there should be no re-infestation if all hives are regularly monitored." I admit I still feel confused on the best long-term treatment for Varooa, even after all the research tha has been published , and would welcome expert contributions on the issue that "whilst regular prophelactic treatment of all hives in an apiary once or even twice a year is the most effective means of control, it is apparently inevitable that resistance will develop from so much exposure to one chemical unless a wholy different means of control is used at intervals to kill off mites that are on the way to developing resistance". To give my best answer to Tim's particular question, >How is monotoring the hives going to keep the drones from flying back and forth?< of course it isn't. However, personally I assume at present that whilst drifting drones carry enough Varooa to infect a previously clean area, drones represent so small a proportion of all bees that drifting does not have much effect on re-distributing mites within an infected apiary. The main cause of mite transfer comes when social cohesion within a colony starts to weaken due to an excessive mite infestation, - on the way to total colony collapse. So if u an avoid letting any single colony go too far - by monitoring every hive - reinfestation of treated hives by untreated ones with only small mite populations should not be a problem. But could Max Watkins or others comment? In Tim's case, hives are apparently only 2 feet apart. That does seem to run risk of increased drifting. Colonies distribute themselves about 1/2 a mile apart in nature, so bees may not have evolved such precise orientation skills as to avoid drifting 2 feet by young bees. Bees seem to use geography to get close to the nest entrance, then switch to scent - it is common lore u can move a hive 2 feet without losing bees. Similar scents from closely related bees may be confusing. I keep my hives 6 feet apart. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:17:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: BEE-L Hived swarm had other ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim Fischer commented: =20 > "Ignoring the obvious question as to why anyone > who's free time was so scarce would have time > to keep bees at all, let alone go chasing after swarms..." >=20 > Struggling to learn how to help a bee colony maximise its performance, = thru unrestricted expression of its natural instincts, is a = fascinating hobby. Collecting stray swarms is, I'm afraid, merely pest = removal, often involving personal risk, usually for free. If u have to = wait for all the stragglers, or make a second visit, it can take a long = time. Jim's 'leave behind' killing bottle sounds good - the 'client' can = dispose of it after a few days.=20 Peter Edwards commented swarm collection is a service, not for profit. = There are however many ways of serving one's neighbour and only 24 hours = in a day.=20 Robin Dartington=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:05:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: Yes, there were rumours about antibiotic abuse, but Ministry tests last year found no evidence. I think that to say 'Many are using antibiotics illegally in the U.K.' is a bit sweeping - and probably incorrect! I almost did not answer the post as not wanting to provide information which might encourage those using the illegal methods in the U.K.but in the interest of the discussion will. If Terramycin/ powdered sugar is used correctly as is supposed to be in the U.S. there is very little chance of FDA /U.S.D.A. detection or *Ministry detection in the U.K.*. Terramycin is not a very stable antibiotic and is not very effective in syrup *unless* used by the bees right away. Terramycin starts losing its effectiveness after approx. 24 hours in syrup. Terramycin is easy to detect if given in syrup and stored by the bees. Detection of Sulfa drugs is easy when in syrup and stored by the bees. In the U.S. most terramycin is sprinkled across the frames with powdered sugar and consumed right away by the bees and almost never stored and all treatments are completed at least SIX WEEKS before the honey flow. If done as recommended detection after the end of the six weeks is almost impossible IF consumed by the bees and not stored. Peter said: The use of antibiotics (presumably OTC) to try to control EFB seems futile because the antibiotic does not kill the bacteria - it is a bacteriostat, not a bacteriocide. Yawn! Peter said: Of course, you can keep pumping in antibiotic if you wish ... (unless you live in the UK). If you are not finding detectable amounts of OTC in your honey then I must have been mistaken about the amount of illegal use of OTC in the U.K.. I apologize! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:15:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Outlaw Subject: ultrafiltration vs. honey driers? In-Reply-To: <200305220053.h4LN7neJ023020@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If I understand correctly, the objection to honey ultrafiltration is that the process removes other than water. Honey driers are not perfect molecular sieves for water either. Comments? Bill END OF MESSAGE ***************************************************************** "The reasons for my humility will become widely appreciated." . . . .prophetic protothought of Young Billybob on March 16, 1946 This message is being sent to you from my laptop. Department of Biological Science Chieftan Way, BIO 4370 Florida State University Tallahassee FL 32306-4370 FAX: 850 644-0481 Voice: 850 644-4020 Home phone: 850 893-7551 Cell (usually off) 850 591-1417 Home Page: http://bio.fsu.edu/~outlaw/who.html Ethnobotany (cane mills and more): http://www.southernmatters.com Publicly shared files: < http://bio.fsu.edu/~outlaw/shared > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 04:56:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Hived swarm had other ideas In-Reply-To: <00aa01c3203f$3fc66160$46932e50@davecush> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I have always considered that the taking of swarms > is important PR for > beekeeing and beekeepers in general. While the swarm got away, I am very thankful for the opportunity to have educated so many people about bees in the process. I spoke to about a dozen people at the site, including the policewoman who called in the report, and the newspaper photographer who arrived on the scene, all of whom were amazed to see me walk right up to this terrifying mass of bees. I later spoke to dozens more who saw my picture in the paper and wanted to know what it was all about, why I wasn't wearing gloves in the photo, etc. I give numerous talks at elementary schools about honeybees, but rarely do I have the chance to reach adults in this way. Eugene Makovec __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:11:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Hived swarm had other ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gentle Folks: In my earlier March post, I described my own frustration of using a nuc- box for swarm retrieval: how a self-respecting swarm would despise, ignore, and abandon the five-frame nuc-box swarm-catcher. During swarming, we all know this too well, bees generate unusual amount of heat, having packed their provision in their lunch box, and coupled with the small space of the nuc box, often painted in dark color, the bees can cook themselves easily—-even if the beekeeper leaves the box in the shade. Many of us, I should recall, also cooked a swarm of bees in the bucket, while in transit, during our salad days. This space and heat factor persuaded me never to use the nuc-box as a swarm-retriever, regardless the size of the swarm. Even a five-gallon bucket, with many holes drilled, or a large cardboard box, with a good vent, offers a bigger and better temporary space for the bees than a nuc box. In its place, I now use two out-of-commission, medium-doubled-up supers, stapled, with a screened bottom board. In it I place ten deep foundations, which leave a good space even between the SBB and the bottom of the dangling frames to further facilitate ventilation. So far all of my swarms, I have had only four so far this year, decided to stay put. On a different note, this year I do not get as many as swarm calls in Oklahoma. How about you folks in the south? I suspect that the cold February had killed off a good number of feral bees. Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:42:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: European Foul Brood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Everyone, Peter wrote in part: "It would seem logical that if it possible to breed bees that are resistant to AFB then the same could be done for EFB; perhaps the mechanism is the same and AFB resistant bees would there be resistant to EFB?" Well, the answer is no the hygenic trait that is involved in resistance to AFB and chalkbrood does not confer resistance to EFB. We don't understand why but other mechanisms are involved with resistance to EFB. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:33:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: drones and inbreeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I welcome your comments to this post, since it is a bit of conjecture on my part. I have three colonies now and like it that way since I do not need the extra honey. Up until last year I grew my own queens, but after the winter before last, saw a disconcerting lack of the usual vitality of my bees. So last year I brought in two new queens and left one colony with the old stock. It continued to dwindle while the new stock thrived. The recent article in Bee Culture by Larry Conner on drones brought home to me what my problem most likely was. Drones which are from the same genetic makeup of the mated queen result in less surviving brood. This is normally not a problem since there are plenty of bees in an area and the genetic mix is more than adequate to insure viability in the stock of bees in that area. But in his work, to maintain purity, there was some loss of viability because you continue to select for the best queens and narrow the gene pool. I also selected for the best queens and for many years had no problem with viability since there was an adequate pool of other colonies in the area. With Varroa, that all changed. I once had at least five beekeepers in my area. They all quit. So over the past few years, the gene pool in my area is probably only my three colonies, totally inadequate to keep the bees healthy. Which is what probably happened. Last year, as I looked at the two new colonies compared to the old one, all treated the same, it had to be the stock. I could go back to raising my own queens, but I would need to start with at least twenty colonies of non-AI queens and would have to raise queens from ten different colonies to maintain diversity with some margin. The trigger for this post was I decided to try some 4.9 foundation, and after making up one deep, wondered why I was embarking on the same path that caused the lack of vitality in my bees. With 4.9, I would have to raise my own queens, since store bought would not fit. There are still no other beekeepers in my area, so the experiment is doomed from the start. I might get great varroa resistance, but poor laying queens and eventually, failure. I wonder if many other 4.9 experiments by hobby beekeepers are also going to go down this road. Unless you have 20 or more colonies or are in an area with many other beekeepers, the drone problem will eventually be the overriding factor in the health of your hives. The final result with me, was to stop then and forget any 4.9 experiment. I also am now a queen purchaser and will not grow my own. In essence, I was a victim of my own success as a beekeeper, keeping my bees going while others in the area quit. Pride does go before a fall. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:25:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vital Gaudreau Subject: Which split part to move away? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Extracted from Allen Dick's diary on May 21st, 2003: >... After a full four or five days, check for eggs in the top box. If there >are none, then the queen is below the excluder, otherwise, she is in the >top box. Add a new queen to whichever half -- top or bottom -- has no queen >and move the the top boxes somewhere several miles away and put them on >floors, and add lids. Feed them, reduce the entrances and leave them a >week.<... p.s.: (Let us keep in mind that AD was given advices to a new beekeeper.) I imagine there will be a major subsequent difference in the development of the two split-parts if, let' s say : 1.A) Queen + young brood + nurse bees are left on original site and B) older brood + queenless bees are moved away. ...(BTW, in this case, I would strongly recommend to wait and install the new caged-queen or cell only after the move took place and not before....obvious reason). 2. Opposite...queen + young brood + nurse bees taken away and older brood + bees remaining home. The point is that with option #1 the old queen will continue to lay eggs and benefit from the foragers (original site) supplying fresh pollen, water, etc...and the split-part taken away will have almost no uncapped brood to take care of, therefore *less need* for fresh pollen for a while (no foragers) during the time the new queen will be released or immerged....i.e., there will be a no-brood period and the major duty for the remaining bees will be just to keep the capped brood warm. Furthermore, the new queen has better chances to be accepted by emerging young bees than the opposite... I simply imagine the possible damage and loss of young brood that could happen if being the part moved away due to the lack of mature bees...not to mention that the queen would most certainly stop or reduce laying eggs and be faced with possible supercedure. Open to comments and suggestions from anyone having experimented and monitered the two options. Thank you. Vital Gaudreau Sainte-Therese, Quebec _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger : discutez en direct avec vos amis ! http://messenger.fr.msn.ca/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:48:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Hived swarm had other ideas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK 05/21/03 04:21PM >>> Peter Edwards said: >I think we collect swarms as a service - certainly not for gain! Here is another perspective: a package of bees from Weaver Apiaries in Navasota (30 miles down the road) costs about $50 plus gas and time to pick it up (or shipping). A swarm of bees is "free" but can be worth the $50 (plus gas, time, etc.) I have never once in my life bought a package of bees from anybody in the world. I started my beekeeping with a swarm that emerged from a friend's hive who had good quality stock. By the way, so many people around here where I live buy bees from the Weavers that most of my swarms are headed by Weaver queens anyway in my opinion. So my opinion is that when I go out and catch a good sized swarm, I just saved/made $50, along with the opportunity to look like a hero and educate some people about bees and their behavior. I do it for fun (because I enjoy it), but also to repopulate my empty hives. I do buy replacement queens at times when I find I have picked up a swarm that is too "hot". Having picked up numerous swarms (most successfully), here is my "trade secret" (which I credit to Dr. Rodney Holloway, Texas A&M University Extension Entomology Specialist, who is also a beekeeper and a friend): I get a "tall" cardboard box (about 2 feet tall) that has a footprint of about 1 ft X 2 ft, and a lid (a shallow box) that will fit over the top. I cut off the top flaps and tape the flaps on the bottom so bees don't get under them. Then I cut a little door flap about 1 inch X 1 inch (cut on two sides and the bottom) so I can open it from the bottom. The uncut side on the top acts as a hinge. I cut the door a little below ½ way up the end of the box. I also poke a few holes around the sides of the box for ventilation. So I take this box with the "door" and top open and scoop or shake as many of the bees as possible into the box through the top. I then set the box down on the ground near where the swarm was, putting the lid on the top and orienting it with the small door flap directed toward the location of the original swarm. What usually happens is that a lot of bees start fanning at the trap door and if I have the queen inside the box, the remainder of the bees joins them and enters the box. They hang from the top and side of the box inside. Sometimes the bees all go in within about 15 minutes, but sometimes it takes 45 minutes to an hour. If I don't have time to wait, I leave it there and pick it up in the evening after work. Another hint is to take a brick to weight the top and box so the wind doesn't blow it down (as happened the last time I did this--blew down the box and blew off the lid). After I get all the bees I am going to get to go inside (there are always a "few" that either won't go in or haven't made it back yet) I just push the door closed and walk away with the box. Now that I've read what some others have written, I plan to add a small cone on the inside of the door so that the bees can go in but not be able to come back out. That will make it even easier, I would think, but the "the proof of the pudding is in the eating." I will test it and see if it actually does work better. When I get the bees back home, just prior to installing them in a hive (and I usually do it in late afternoon or just before dusk) I will gently "slam" the box on the ground hard enough to dislodge the bees from the top and sides of the box and knock them down to the bottom. I then quickly take off the lid and dump/shake the bees into the hive box. Most every time it is successful but once in a while they will leave in a day or two. I suspect that the most common cause for leaving is if I somehow catch a queenless swarm. Who knows the other reasons. There are a lot of possibilities. Often a feeder will help encourage them to stay too, but sometimes not. So far this spring I've "made" about $350 for very little effort and cost on my part. And, oh yes, I take a jar or two of my local honey along with me when I go to pick up a swarm and ask if they would like to buy some. It has a nice label with my address on it in case they would like to buy some more later. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:20:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Hived swarm had other ideas For the novice, here is my url that shows my out-of-commission mediums, doubled-up, serving as a swarm retriever. Of course, the bottom is Screened Bottom Board for maxium ventilation. http://intranet.sgc.edu/people/faculty/yskim/more_pictures.htm I am simply squirting water, not sugar water. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:31:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: drones and inbreeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & all > I could go back to raising my own queens, but I would need to start with > at least twenty colonies of non-AI queens and would have to raise queens > from ten different colonies to maintain diversity with some margin. This would be true of Non AI queens and of AI queens mated with small numbers of drone's semen loads. The answer to this 'smallness of scale' is AI, but using homogenised semen. By this method you can effectively mate a queen to numbers of drones in the 100 to 200 region with the diversity of fertilised eggs from such a queen equivelent to ten or a dozen colonies. The downside here is that you will need to generate and mate a number of queens and run them for a time while you assess the qualities of the offspring (I find this sort of work enjoyable, although some may see it as a chore). Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:23:37 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: ultrafiltration vs. honey driers? Bill Outlaw said: > If I understand correctly, the objection to honey ultrafiltration > is that the process removes other than water. Seems a fair summary. :) > Honey driers are not perfect molecular sieves for water either. > Comments? I'm not sure I understand which specific honey-drying process you are describing. The only processes I know of are the "low-end" processes that a beekeeper might use: a) "Thick Film of Honey", where a shallow tray is filled with honey, and one dehumidifies the air to draw moisture out of the honey. Takes lots of floor space, and difficult to keep clean and dust free. b) "Vacuum/Flash Heat", where the (partial) vacuum lowers the "boiling point" of the honey, and the flash heater, heating the honey to some "reasonable" temperature that is hoped to not hurt your HMF or diastase numbers) boils off some percentage of the water content. Very cool, but not cheap. b) "Thin Film of Honey", where one creates maximum surface area for minimum amounts of honey, and dehumidifies the surrounding air. (The rotating disks in a tank approach seems to me to be a great use for all those LP records that have been replaced by identical CDs, but I have yet to build one.) More cool, in that one need not heat the honey at all, not much floor space, and no need to sustain a vacuum, so this is clearly the way to go for anyone who does not have a multi-million dollar "plant". None of these processes will "filter out" anything, and while the ones using heat will certainly evaporate out some volatiles, I can't imagine any of them creating "non-honey". So which process are you thinking of? Some sort of very fancy catalytic process? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:07:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Wenner book In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030127231315.025f6b90@pop3.wcoil.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Some time ago, Adrian Wenner noted in a discussion on pests in hives that he had published a book with Hilary Dole Klein,TINY GAME HUNTING: Environmentally Healthy Ways to Trap and kill the Pests in Your House and Garden. My husband grabbed it first; I hear him chuckling next to me as he reads it in bed until he laughs out loud reads me a passage. The writing is lively and fascinating -- like the world of insects -- and well worth the read beyond it s useful contents. We have an organic farm, and the book has been valuable beyond the apiary. Wenner noted in his earlier posting that the revised edition is at The Uniiversity of California Press on sale for $12 plus shipping. Toll free number (800) 777-4726 book #3A1300. MEA McNeil :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:25:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Hived swarm had other ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/22/2003 5:24:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, yskim@CPN-NET.COM writes: > On a different note, this year I do not get as many as swarm calls in > Oklahoma. How about you folks in the south? I suspect that the cold > February had killed off a good number of feral bees. > Yoon, I too, use a 5 gallon bucket to catch the swarm after I have sprayed them with sugar water. I dump them out onto a tablecloth, which I have put in front of a medium super (I'm not able to lift the deeps). This way I can look for the queen and see the fanners. I have had 13 successful swarm calls. One was 15 feet up in a tree. I used the pole of a broken pole pruner and duct taped the bucket to it. (Ah, duct tape...my favorite tool). Then I would climb up and spray and then bump the swarm from underneath and then transfer them to the tablecloth. My worst swarm was on Main Street in Sebastopol. The bees ( I kid you not), were on the front window and awning of a business called MILK AND HONEY!!! As there was a huge crowd around I used a whole lot of sugar water to make sur e the bees didn't fly. This was at the beginning of the swarm season and I was very inexperienced, as I just celebrated my first year of bee keeping this month. Well, I didn't have a hive to dump them into, so I just kept going until I had them all in the bucket and took them home. Well, of course, you know I drowned most of the bees. It was a shame and a hard lesson to learn. It was a huge swarm. It filled half of a 5 gallon bucket. Actually, I think now, that it was 2 swarms. My funniest swarm was the one I took out of the dumpster at an apartment building. There was an old chair upside down in the garbage and the bees got inside a flap of material. The whole apartment was fascinated by the bees. I got the bees started and came back at dusk to pick them up. Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:02:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan Robin asked: > Peter's 120 hives seems to offer a good sample for testing the theory that > just a few hives at random can suddenly show abnormal high Varooa > infestation (due probably to robbing an infected colony) , if all the hives > are individually monitored? Can I ask if they are? As I said in my posting, around 15% are - and I have no plans to increase this. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:18:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: FYI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for interest's sake. For those who are interested, there are currently 585 subscribed members of BEE-L, and who knows how many who read BEE-L on the web interface... Each year, it seems we build up to over 850, then lose 300 or so at renewal time. The moderators :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:57:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Goetze Subject: Re: Sick Bumblebees Peter Detchon has a point. Maybe the mess we see is nothing more than a bee hater's eggs of mass destruction. Egg splatter is a valid hypothesis. (That's why the bees need to be examined.) However, the mess also looks a lot like the NORMAL poop I experience with "my" large carpenter bee (Xylocopa) commune. These chubby buzzers void just near their gallery entrances or on the neighbour's Jetta. They can make a big mess. "My" Bumbles have yet to make such a mess but I don't house them in bird- house structures. "Mine" are all using abandoned chipmunk (Tamias striatus) dens. When I have observed voiding, it's away from the nest entrance. (Although, I have found feces in abandoned nesting material.) There is a rumor that Bumbles will use their feces as a chemical weapon against bee haters. "My" Bumbles are Canadian, thus too polite to fling poop. Cheers. RG :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:38:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: drones and inbreeding MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bill, > The trigger for this post was I decided to try some 4.9 foundation, and > after making up one deep, wondered why I was embarking on the same path > that caused the lack of vitality in my bees. With 4.9, I would have to > raise my own queens, since store bought would not fit. I have never tried dealing with 4.9 bees. I would be interested to hear from those out there who may have tried it. Some are very strong about smaller bees. However, from what I understand from the authority (Dee Lusby) standard queens can lay in 4.9 combs. No problem there. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 07:49:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Sick Bumblebees Richard said: > Peter Detchon has a point. Maybe the mess we see is nothing more than a bee > hater's eggs of mass destruction I think that we can rule out bee hater's. The person who owns these was concerned enough to email me and picks up sick bees from the lawn and places them in the border so that they do not get trodden on. I have taken up your suggestion to email Dr Brown to see if he is interested in a sample. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 07:18:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Hived swarm had other ideas Layne said: >Here is another perspective: a package of bees from Weaver Apiaries in Navasota (30 >miles down the road) costs about $50 plus gas and time to pick it up (or shipping). A >swarm of bees is "free" but can be worth the $50 (plus gas, time, etc I agree that some swarms are well worth collecting, but if you took the total cost of all callouts, i.e. good swarms, small swarms, those that depart before you arrive, those that abscond after hiving, those that are out of reach (despite assurances that they can be reached easily), those that are not swarms at all (bumble bees, solitary bees, large number of bees working a good nectar source such as cotoneaster), then I suspect that there is little profit left. There is one additional cost: during the swarming season your own bees will need the maximum attention - there is little point in spending time collecting someone else's swarms only to lose your own! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 07:34:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Queen Mandibular Pheromone A point of clarification please. Can this be used both to attract stragglers after picking up a swarm, hive in house, etc.. and also to attract new swarms in beeyards and such? What are some sources? This sounds like a great idea, especially with large swarms in high bushy trees, sometimes you really can't get them all. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 07:44:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: drones and inbreeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The queens in the observational hives have had no problem with the 4.9 size. The abdomen tapers and fits in the smaller cells without any problems. The biggest queen I have ever seen was on all 4.9 cell size frames. She was tapered. I marker her and clipped wings before installing her. The mark came off (number) but the wing clipping stayed. This 4 frame observation hive swarmed yesterday and the status of the queen is unknown this morning. No chemicals, no mites, and no destruction from beetles and the health of hive is perfect. Michael Housel Orlandobee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 06:00:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: FYI In-Reply-To: <01c801c32096$f60c99b0$3fb85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Just curious: Do most of the 300 Lost Sheep later return to the fold, or are they replaced by new members? (Is there an easy way for the moderators to determine what kind of turnover we have on the List?) Eugene Makovec > Each year, it seems we build up to over 850, then > lose 300 or so at > renewal time. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:12:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Hived swarm had other ideas Comments: To: beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Edwards said: >I agree that some swarms are well worth collecting, but if you took the >total cost of all callouts, i.e. good swarms, small swarms, those that >depart before you arrive, those that abscond after hiving, those that are >out of reach (despite assurances that they can be reached easily), those >that are not swarms at all (bumble bees, solitary bees, large number of bees >working a good nectar source such as cotoneaster), then I suspect that there >is little profit left. There is also a wonderful invention called the telephone in our country, and I use it to the best advantage. Since I am an entomologist and have been doing this for a long time, I usually know the right questions to ask (and I ask a whole series of questions before I ever even think of going) and can usually therefore determine what I would be dealing with. For many calls, I give them advice over the telephone and do not go personally. Many people are capable of solving their own problems after having been given advice by someone with experience. I very rarely go out for a worthless swarm, and as I mentioned in my last post, I always take some honey to sell, so very rarely do I come up "empty." It's easier to sell honey to someone for whom you have just done a favor--they usually feel an obligation to buy. Since I do this as a hobby and usually do not charge for picking up swarms, I do not feel an obligation to respond to every call I receive and I set the ground rules about what I will do and when I will do it. I have learned to say no or to refer them to someone else when appropriate. Sometimes I refer them to other (particularly new) beekeepers who would like to have the experience, particularly when it is late in the season. Sometimes I just let the phone ring and do not answer it if I have something more important to do. But I also consider what I do to be a public service and my way of giving something worthwhile to my community. Sometimes just helping someone who no one else is willing or able to help is reward enough in itself. Some people have no one else to turn to when they have a problem. Coming up with a solution to a challenging problem gives me a great sense of satisfaction. Hopefully these thoughts will add a little more to the perspective and discussion. Not all things worth doing result in a financial reward, but often they do. When they don't, there are other ways of being rewarded. The Weavers never respond to swarm calls. It's not one of the things they do, but they raise good queens. I respond to swarm calls because I want to, not because I have to, and I have never once in my life purchased a package of bees. I spend as little money as possible on my hobbies. I try to make them pay for themselves. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:12:47 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan Robin said: > Peter's 120 hives seems to offer a good sample for testing the > theory that just a few hives at random can suddenly show abnormal > high Varooa infestation (due probably to robbing an infected colony), > if all the hives are individually monitored? Can I ask if they are? Let's assume that Peter is a very fast and efficient worker, and can remove a board, estimate a relative varroa count, and slide in a new sticky board in 3 minutes per hive, total. 120 * 3 mins = 360 mins 360 mins / 60 mins/hr = 6 hours Let's also assume that Peter is very fast at preparing new sticky boards, and can prepare each in 1 minute. 120 * 1 min = 120 mins 120 mins / 60 mins/hr = 2 hours So, if Peter were to use and check sticky boards on all his hives weekly, it would consume a full 8-hour workday every week!! This problem of "scale" often appears with many good ideas that are advocated by people who manage smaller numbers of hives. Problems with "scale" tend to show up when one starts to manage around 50 hives - the burden of even small inefficiencies starts to become a real pain. > whilst drifting drones carry enough Varooa to infect a previously > clean area, drones represent so small a proportion of all bees that > drifting does not have much effect on re-distributing mites within > an infected apiary. Colonies weakened by varroa get robbed by bees from uninfested colonies. Those bees come back bearing both goodies and mites. Capture and mark returning foragers landing at 2 or 3 healthy hives using a different color for each hive, and then go watch the landing board of a weak hive in the same area. You will see many pretty colors. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:38:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: FYI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Just curious: Do most of the 300 Lost Sheep later > return to the fold, or are they replaced by new > members? Subscribers come, subscribers go. Many who get dropped after the CONFIRM exercise come back, some do not. New subscribers take their place. > (Is there an easy way for the moderators to > determine what kind of turnover we have on the List?) There are options for the list owner to receive notification when new members join or when old members leave. However, I do not have these options activated. On a list this size, the volume of mail is already too great for me to follow. I have written rules to filter all but the most pertinent stuff (items submitted for approval). For every approved post, there are 3 pieces of mail generated. Submissions that are not approved generate only one. Any time mail does not reach a subscriber (network problems, user's mailbox is over quota, subscriber changed their address and left the old address subscribed, ....) the mail bounces back to me. This is the reason for the CONFIRM exercise, it removes the abandoned addresses, and for a short period I am relieved of a lot of the LISTSERV noise. You can't imagine how quiet my mailbox seems since the 15th! So yes, the list OWNER can track turnover (moderators cannot) if they care to take the time and make the effort. But it's not something I do. I'm happy to sponsor the list and glad that folks subscribe and participate. Without the subscribers, BEE-L would be nothing! Cheers, Aaron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:15:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Heinrich Schmitt Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That’s a problem with so many colonies. It is almost impossible to control the mites on 50 hives and up every week. 4 weeks ago I got my first Oxamite Varroa strips and I placed one strip cross the combs in each new colony. It works; I checked last Sunday und mites are falling. It’s a natural product and no resistance for the Varroa possible. After harvesting the honey I will put two strips in each regular colony and this protect the hives from reinventions from weak colonies in the neighborhood. Now all I have to do is a control in late fall and a treatment with oxalic acid fog if necessary. I got the strips from a US company: http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/new_oxamite.htm Has anybody already tested the strips too? Heinrich / Germany :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:49:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Reasons for Swarm Chasing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, A swarm in May is worth a load of hay. A swarm in June is worth a silver spoon. A fall from a ladder may be worth a trip to the hospital. Like most beekeepers I have caught my share of swarms over the years. There is something fascinating about a swarm and they still intrigue me. The behavior of the person calling about the swarm is also somewhat intriguing. After the main onslaught of varroa the number of swarm calls has gone down from what it was 10 years ago. We still get them so I finally set up some rules for going after them. If the swarm is one of mine; I go. If it is in an area near where I have colonies; I go. If the caller is an acquaintance; I go. If the swarm is causing a problem, perceived or real, (i.e., landing in the stands during a baseball game); again I will go. Lastly if something good for the industry's image, i.e., positive media coverage, can be gained; I will also go. All these are without charge. When I get a call, four things come into play. How high? How far? How long? and What kind of tree are they in? If its higher than 6 ft (2m), further than 10 miles (16 km), or in a pine tree or hedge; I tell the caller there will be a fee. I don't charge very much, usually enough to cover my time and travel. If they balk, I offer the names of one or two other beekeepers, and politely say good by. Some will argue, we owe it to the bees. I hate knowing something bad has happened to some bees, but I am a realist. I can't stop world hunger, nor can I save every bee. Too many times I have arrived and the swarm was gone and the caller didn't bother to let me know or I was greeted by two other beekeepers because the caller just called everyone he could regardless of the fact we all said we would be there. I have said this before. I don't owe the world a favor just because I am a beekeeper. If my car breaks down I would never call a complete strange to come over and fix it RIGHT NOW and then expect him to work for free, just because he is a mechanic. The same goes for beekeeping. If I am doing it without charge, I feel I am doing them a favor. If I am charging they are usually getting more then what they are paying for. If you love swarm-chasing, good luck, but bee careful. Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:06:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Reasons for Swarm Chasing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron Bogansky says: >A fall from a ladder may be worth a trip to the hospital. Been there, done that. I don't do it any more. A swarm is not worth a fall from a ladder. >If the swarm is one of mine; I go. If it is in an area near where I have colonies; I go. If the caller is >an acquaintance; I go. If the swarm is causing a problem, perceived or real, (i.e., landing in the >stands during a baseball game); again I will go. Lastly if something good for the industry's image, >i.e., positive media coverage, can be gained; I will also go. All these are without charge. >When I get a call, four things come into play. How high? How far? How long? and What kind of >tree are they in? If its higher than 6 ft (2m), further than 10 miles (16 km), or in a pine tree or >hedge; I tell the caller there will be a fee. I don't charge very much, usually enough to cover my >time and travel. If they balk, I offer the names of one or two other beekeepers, and politely say >good by. I really liked Ron's list of circumstances on how he decides whether to go or not or whether to charge or not. Here is my experience of the past hour: I got a call from a lady who said she has a swarm of bees in her back yard. I asked if they were in a tree or a shrub, and how big the swarm was. She said they were in an upside down 5 gallon bucket that has a crack in it and had a potted plant set on it. She moved the plant and was moving the bucket and the bees came out and tried to sting her. I asked her if the crack in the bucket was big enough for the bees to go in and out, and if it was one of those white 5 gallon plastic buckets. She said, no, it was black, and maybe 8 gallons and the bees were going in and out of the crack as well as the holes. I then said, "So it's one of those black plastic nursery pots that was set upside down with a potted plant on it and the bees built their home inside the pot?" She said yes. I asked her how many bees there were and how long they had been there. She said "a lot, and they have probably been there a long time because there is a big nest." I told her I would come and take a look at it and see what I could do. So I went, and what I found was a black plastic pot on its side, with a fair number of bees, but not that much new comb, so they had only been there a few days. As I sucked up the bees with my bee vac and examined the comb, I could see it was new white comb (about 3 or 4 small combs) about 4-5 inches long and a couple of inches wide. Had some pollen in it, almost no nectar, and just about every open cell had an egg in it. As I continued to suck up the bees, I saw the queen and made sure I got her too. In the meantime, while I talked to the lady, I found out from her that she had called everyone she could think of, and had even had an animal control officer come over and take a look. All of them told her they couldn't help her. She finally was referred to the entomology department at the University and they gave her my name. She even told me that she had called as far away as Dallas (a 4 hour drive from here) to see if she could get somebody to come and help her. She asked me if I sold any of my honey and how could she get some. I told her, I do, and as a matter of fact, just happened to have a quart and 2 pints in my car if she was interested (I don't really twist people's arms). She was delighted and said she wanted it all. That was $10 for the quart and $5 for each of the pints, so she wrote me a check for $20 and was as happy as she could be. I gave her my business card when she asked me how she could get some more when that ran out. She said she had been looking for somewhere she could get local honey, but didn't know where to find it. She then asked me if I had pollen to sell. The answer was, yes, I do when I have someone who wants to buy it. I only collect it when I get a request from a customer. She said she would call me (February and October). There you are, a new happy loyal customer, a check in my pocket, and a "swarm" of bees to install in an empty hive when I get home from work (I'm a database administrator). They seemed to be pretty nice bees too and didn't give me any trouble when I vacuumed them up. It took all of about an hour's time and was fun. All in all a positive experience. "Swarm catching for fun and profit." "Beekeeping for some balance in my life." My academic training is entomology, but like my friend in the Extension Service said, "Working for Extension Entomology sure did ruin a good hobby." Layne Westover, former Extension Entomologist from College Station, Texas--Home of the Fightin' Texas Aggies :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:06:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/05/03 05:06:41 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << and all treatments are completed at least SIX WEEKS before the honey flow. >> One of the problems in the UK is that a honey flow is an elusive, unpredictable, brief, fugitive and possibly even mythical event. Unless within range of OSR or ling an inconstant but cumulative dribble throughout the season is more typical. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:56:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance in Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/05/03 05:06:41 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << whilst regular prophelactic treatment of all hives in an apiary once or even twice a year is the most effective means of control, >> I have never understood the concept of prophylactic treatment for pests such as varroa. How can you by adding chemicals or making manipulations control beasts that aren't there? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:43:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: pheromone baited swarm traps Comments: cc: ponerine@dakotacom.net, rwthorp@ucdavis.edu In-Reply-To: <20030513140241.58951.qmail@web41603.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" On May 13th, Grant Gillard posed the following question: >Any of you use swarm traps with pheremone lures to catch swarms? > >I was curious how you go about do this and how your luck has run. I held off on responding in hopes others would provide input. The following readily available items might prove useful in that regard: Schmidt & Thoenes. 1990. The efficiency of swarm traps. What percent of swarms are captured and at what distance from the hive. AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL. 130:811 (December issue). Wenner & Thorp. 1993. Swarm choice: Survey hives or natural cavities. AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL. 133:870 (December issue). Wenner & Schmidt. 1995. Effectiveness of small swarm hives. AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL. 135:832 (December issue). In the last decade and a half, I have had more than 80 swarms occupy swarm hives baited with an artificial lure and thus have a some insight about relative success in hive placement. 1) Justin Schmidt and Steve Thoenes developed the practical model we now use. They advocated placing the hives about 9' above ground. In a natural setting, that is not always possible. Swarm hives only 5' high have been successful. 2) Swarm hives in canyon bottoms and ridge tops rarely became occupied. We feel that is due to the problem of the odor travelling downwind and becoming inaccessible to searching recruits. 3) Another person reported to me that placing the hive entrance downwind proved more successful than when entrances were placed in other directions. 4) In some cases, lures apparently proved effective more than a year after installation. 5) Swarm hives proved about equally effectively at becoming occupied as did natural cavities that had formerly had colonies in them (1993 reference, above). I hope the above information proves valuable. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:46:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance in Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade said: > I have never understood the concept of prophylactic treatment for pests such > as varroa. How can you by adding chemicals or making manipulations control > beasts that aren't there?< > > Unforetunately, once arived, Varooa are ALWAYS there The most effective treatment (Apistan) only claims 98% or so kill - so if there are 2500 mites at treatment , there are 50 left - too few tofind easliy in a colony of say 70,000 bees. These can rebuild the population back to the treatment threshold over one year - unless suppressed with say thymol, or drone brood culling , in which case the treatment intervals can be lengthened - but u need to monotor each hive with a mesh floor to know if it is safe to leave any particular colony for longer. Robin Dartington > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:11:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Reasons for Swarm Chasing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all > Ron Bogansky says: > > >A fall from a ladder may be worth a trip to the hospital. Layne Westover replied... > Been there, done that. I don't do it any more. > A swarm is not worth a fall from a ladder. I couldn't agree more, but there is an alternative... (at least this works in UK). Phone the Fire Brigade and explain what needs to be done and they will despatch a turntable ladder or a cherry picker type vehicle to assist you. Another phone call to the local newspaper will ensure that beekeeping and the fire service get good publicity. This is PR of the best substance as the beekeeper is demonstrating that he is a good citizen in removing the bees and the Fire Dept is shown as helping the beekeeper to do this 'safely'. Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 10:48:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Reasons for Swarm Chasing Dave wrote " Phone the Fire Brigade and explain what needs to be done and they will despatch a turntable ladder or a cherry picker type vehicle to assist you." Hey, that's a great idea, the Fire Department is one of the bodies that call me with swarm control requests. I'll have to try that. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 09:08:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So, if Peter were to use and check sticky boards on all his > hives weekly, it would consume a full 8-hour workday every week!! > This problem of "scale" often appears with many good ideas > that are advocated by people who manage smaller numbers of hives. > Problems with "scale" tend to show up when one starts to manage > around 50 hives - the burden of even small inefficiencies starts > to become a real pain. Jim brings up a good point that has been discussed here before, but probably not nearly enough. The problem of scale actually crops up regularly as a beekeeper builds up from two hives to ten, to twenty-five, to one hundred, to 300, to 600 and onwards. The amazing thing is how seldom it is forseen or appreciated. Focus shifts during expansion, too, from trying to find more things to do with one's bees, to how to find time for oneself, as the enterprise increases in size. There is never a shortage of good ideas. Some seem compelling and urgent, but a smart manager must decide what will pay with some certainty, and what will not; and what omission is likely to have serious adverse consequences, and what can safely be risked. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 14:38:54 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Reasons for Swarm Chasing Dave Cushman said: > Phone the Fire Brigade and explain what needs to be done > and they will despatch a turntable ladder or a cherry picker > type vehicle to assist you. Raining on Saturday AGAIN here on the east coast of the US... Our emergency services are 100% volunteer, so one simply does not ask for such favors. It is also very expensive for any emergency response unit to "roll trucks", something like several hundred dollars in direct costs to dispatch a pumper, a hook-and-ladder, an ambulance, and police cars to a fire or car crash. (The problem here is that emergency vehicles must always start on the FIRST turn of the key, so maintenance is based upon both miles and hours of use, raising the cost of each mile, each hour of service, and each "call".) The municipal electric co-op and the local cable company both have "cherry pickers", and they both ask me to take care of occasional "bees" that take up residence in their equipment. Now, properly sealed equipment is both weathertight and bee-proof, so the overwhelming majority of these cases are wasp nests that are uncomfortably NEAR their equipment, but this does allow me to justify my occasional requests to "borrow" one of their employees and his truck outside of their normal working hours. (The field employees have become smart enough to properly identify bees, wasps, yellowjackets, and carpenter bees, which I appreciate.) The liability implications of something like this are prohibitively scary for any organization that owns such equipment, so both have been negotiated simple waivers to address their concerns. In short, if I get hurt, its my fault, not theirs. If I damage their equipment in any way, it is my fault, and repairs are directly billable to me. If I am working on one of "their" problems, I am a considered a "contractor" from a liability standpoint, and must provide proof of insurance for personal injury and liability if I am to be a "contractor". But don't expect to be so lucky yourself. This is a very small community, everyone knows everyone, and there is little paranoia. It is also a farming community, where nearly everyone owns tractors, hay cutters, bailers, and other large, expensive, and dangerous mechanical contraptions. John Deer, Caterpillar, and Massey Ferguson are the subject of more ad-hoc evangelism and heated discussion than any religious or political issue. Gangs of agrarian loyalists saunter the streets identified by the color of their caps, and will often engage in drive-by tauntings of rival gang members. Some situations presented by the power co-op are simply too scary to touch due to nearby high voltage lines in their "core" distribution system. It matters very little if the lines you face are 345 Kilovolt, 230 KV, 15 KV, or 12 KV. They all have nearly identical sudden effects on the unwary beekeeper. What I do is "stand off" with a CO2 foam fire extinguisher, and fire short bursts until the (most often, wasp) nest is smashed and falls away from its support. No one is going to cut power to hundreds of homes just to remove a few wasps, but neither am I interested in coming within an arm's length of anything above 220 volts. For those really difficult residential jobs, one can rent staging from any rental equipment yard, and most of them deliver and pick up the staging. But I would never "borrow" any emergency services equipment. It needs to be ready for real emergencies. Why do you think that fire engines are backed into their firehouse bays? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 22:55:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim said: "if Peter were to use and check sticky boards on all his hives weekly, it would consume a full 8-hour workday every week!!" Yes, agreed, which is why sticky boards are such a clumsy method and a = simpler method is needed. Permanent plastic wipe-clean trays under = permanent mesh floors take say 15 to 30 seconds to pull out , glance at = for abnormal amount of mites, wipe and return - and a monthly check is = sufficient to show up the colonies getting infected from outside. So = monitoring 120 hives would add 15 MINUTES WORK A WEEK, NOT 8 HOURS! = Estimating the exact number of mites dropped in 4 weeks is needed say = once or twice a year when a decision to treat or not is needed. Even = then, with experience, a fair guess can be made just by eye, or you = count the mites seen within a 2 inch square opening in a card dropped on = the tray and factor up. =20 Ever since varooa arrived, the scientific advice has been to monitor = mite drop. So I say again, by now, mesh floors and wipable trays should = be standard equipment. Staying locked on to the old ways, and proposing = silly ways of monitoring, just in order to knock the method down, is = really no help.=20 Dick Allen said: " There is never a shortage of good ideas. Some seem compelling and urgent, but a smart manager must decide what will pay with some certainty, and what will not; and what omission is likely to have serious adverse consequences, and what can safely be risked." Isn't Varooa one of the most serious problems we have? Is it really = safe to risk not finding the colonies with abnormal growth rate of mites = , that need treatment earlier than other hives in order to avoid robbing = or drifting from weakened colonies? Are we taking any steps against = the day when Apistan is no longer effective against invasion by resitant = mites? Considering how little change there has been to beekeeping = practice in the ten to 15 years since Variooa arrived, by when will we = be ready? =20 Robin Dartington=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 20:09:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/24/2003 3:19:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, gmv47@DIAL.PIPEX.COM writes: > Yes, agreed, which is why sticky boards are such a clumsy method and a > simpler method is needed. Permanent plastic wipe-clean trays under permanent > mesh floors take say 15 to 30 seconds to pull out , glance at for abnormal > amount of mites, wipe and return - and a monthly check is sufficient to show up > the colonies getting infected from outside. Check out the ad in Bee Culture for the Trapping Tray by Serge Labesque. I use it and it is wonderful. Tells me everything I need to know without opening the hive. With the moat of oil, ants, earwigs, mites, spiders, etc. are stopped from invading the hive. See pollen, the queen is laying! Can see evidence of robbing and wax moths. Up to 30% of mites are lost from the hive with open mesh bottom boards. The moat of oil makes sure the mites don't climb back on a bee to reinfest. Well made and a great addition to the colony. Check it out. Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 20:09:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy reported: Up to 30% of mites are lost from the hive with open mesh bottom boards. Tests run at several places in the U.S. do not support the above. In some tests the hives with screened bottom boards and controls were the same. 10% is the highest figure I have ever seen given. On a final note if we move to controls like formic acid gel (or even liquid formic acid) the fumes will sink from the hive (heavier than air) through the screened bottom board without controlling varroa (reported at the 2003 ABF convention by the makers of "mitegone " formic acid pads). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:36:21 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Queen Mandibular Pheromone Tim Vaughan said, about QMP: > Can this be used both to attract stragglers after picking > up a swarm, hive in house, etc.. Yes. Works great. I keep several QMP "straws" in an airtight metal cigar tube (mostly to stabilize temperature) as a part of my go kit. > and also to attract new swarms in beeyards and such? Sorry, no. Intact swarms have their own queen, with her own unique mix of pheromones. QMP will certainly attract a few bees away from a swarm, but not the swarm as a whole. If you mean as "bait" in a swarm trap, then I think you mean "Nasarov pheromone" rather than QMP. There are those that say that Nazarov pheromone can attract swarms to traps, and quite a bit of it gets sold, much of it with swarm traps, but I don't know of any studies that showed any statistically significant advantage over traps baited with "old comb". I also don't know of any studies that showed any statistically significant advantage to using old comb as "bait". I bait my homebrew traps with "old comb" (hey, it is free...), but I wire little 8-mesh enclosures around the bait comb to keep the wax moths away. What bothers me is that the same people who make and sell the bulk of both the QMP and Nasarov pheromones persist in marketing "Fruit Boost", http://www.pherotech.com/fruit_boost_with_qmp_for_polli.html one of the many options offered as "aids to pollination" or "bee attractants". This application of pheromones has been shown to not have any significant effect in controlled studies, which forces one to wonder why any responsible firm would continue to market such products in the face of such conclusions from impartial and experienced scientists. > This sounds like a great idea, especially with large swarms > in high bushy trees, sometimes you really can't get them all. By the time the swarm is high in a tree, one has lost the chance to "attract" the swarm. The use of a "swarm trap" presumes that one will deploy them before "swarming season", in hopes that scouts will find it and appreciate the enclosure. What I don't understand is the thinking behind the "bucket-type" swarm traps. Why would any scout bee prefer an enclosure with such a large and impossible to defend "entrance"? Why would a bee select an enclosure with a interior not much larger than a 5-gallon pail? Why do these things not have a "lid" with a smaller opening? Why are these things not larger? Around here (Virginia), swarming's over, and supers are on. Now if it would just stop raining for 3 days at a time! 5.6 inches this month! jim (Who knows how to make a pheromone... ...knock down his pyramid!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 06:47:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Mint = bee repelent? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On a show on the Food Network about preparing food for a picnic, one of the tips was: "Spread mint on your picnic cloth and you won't be bothered by bees." Myth or fact? Other comments?... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:04:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Queen Mandibular Pheromone In-Reply-To: <329201c3227f$931713e0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 May 2003 at 1:36, James Fischer wrote: > What bothers me is that the same people who make and sell the > bulk of both the QMP and Nasarov pheromones persist in marketing > "Fruit Boost", > http://www.pherotech.com/fruit_boost_with_qmp_for_polli.html > one of the many options offered as "aids to pollination" or > "bee attractants". This application of pheromones has been > shown to not have any significant effect in controlled studies, > which forces one to wonder why any responsible firm would continue > to market such products in the face of such conclusions from > impartial and experienced scientists. The biggest problem is that there are often no bees to attract. For about the same cost (as treating the bloom with the pheromone), a grower could place a hive per acre, and bee sure. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:01:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Mint = bee repelent? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 25 May 2003 at 6:47, Paul D. Law (aka Dennis) wrote: > On a show on the Food Network about preparing > food for a picnic, one of the tips was: > "Spread mint on your picnic cloth and you won't > be bothered by bees." Myth. Bees aren't going to bother anyway, unless some honey is exposed, and there is a severe drought, a hard frost, or some other reason why there are no blooms. They prefer nectar. It's almost always yellow jackets that come to the late summer and fall picnics, not bees. I very much doubt mint would have any effect with them either. They are creatures of habit. If it is a public picnic place and they've been getting fed any kind of sugar, they'll be there. If you are the first to picnic there, they probably will only be a couple of curious ones, looking for sugar sources. Yellow jackets get their sugar (for energy for their wings) from brood secretions; the brood is fed insects. When they stop rearing brood in August (or September in the South), they get crazed for sugar of any kind. Here's more: http://goodbugpage.org/wonderful_wasps5.htm Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:57:50 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: screened bottom boards Bob said: > On a final note if we move to controls like formic acid gel (or even liquid > formic acid) the fumes will sink from the hive (heavier than air) through > the screened bottom board without controlling varroa (reported at the 2003 > ABF convention by the makers of "mitegone" formic acid pads). and > In some tests the hives with screened bottom boards and controls were > the same. 10% is the highest figure I have ever seen given. 1) Given that the direct advantages in terms of "natural mite fall" are too limited to provide effective control of varroa alone, of what possible value is a screened bottom if there is nothing under it, and nowhere to put a "sticky board"? As a metaphor, of what value is a temperature gauge on my dashboard if it has no needle? 2) I know that no one sells a screened bottom with a built-in solid bottom, but they seem to expect one to have a traditional solid bottom, turn it around so that the "entrance" faces backwards, and place (their version of) a screened bottom on top. 3) It is not too much trouble to cut some 1/4-inch luan plywood and nail it to the base of the screen assembly, which creates a place for the sticky board, and increases the structural strength of the thing considerably. A nailed or screwed-in solid "plug" for the front gap between plywood and screen, and a removable solid "plug" for the rear are also good ideas for those who don't like random beasties taking up residence under their hives. Cheaper than a bottom board, for sure. 4) Does the statement imply that one wants to reduce entrances when using this product to further reduce ventilation? If not, why not? 5) Did these folks mention any effort to gain EPA approval for their product, or are they only selling in Canada, and giving a wink, a nod and secret hand signals to US beekeepers? Their website solicits "US Associates", http://www.mitegone.com/usassociates.html and quotes pricing in US dollars, so one is forced to wonder if they have heard of the US "EPA". (Making pesticidal claims about an unregistered product of any sort is a great way to get the shirt fined off one's back.) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:28:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: What to do fpr a wet bee??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I got back from my bike ride it was raining/sprinling. The top of the hive had a shallow layer or water and numerous damp fallen maple buds. Also three bees lying on their backs. One was still moving her legs so I tried to offer her a lift with a twig, but by the time I found a little twig she was barely moving. I used the twig to gently push her over the edge of the hive top so she landed on the "front porch" of the hive where a dozen or so bees were hanging out (still down at the end of the hive where the opening was before I removed the entrance reducer last a week ago when I added the second hive body - five weeks after installing the package & queen.) Is there anything that can be done for a rain soaked bee (or one that's fallen into the feeder tank & been fished out with a spoon)? I don't like to stand by while an animal suffers. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:24:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Mint = bee repelent? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder which Mint? I have several times had a strong peppermint smelling honey when extracting. On the strength of that I searched and found several acres of overgrown peppermint in an unused field. Thus I assume that Peppermint in not a repellent that can be relied on to keep foragers away. Though strong smelling in extracting we could, unfortunately, NOT taste the peppermint in the honey. Then I have never been bothered by honey bees on a picnic so wonder if these bees were really yellow jacket wasps which are VERY annoying in late summer and fall. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:36:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan Allen said: > Focus shifts during expansion, too, from trying to find more things to > do with one's bees, I like that! > to how to find time for oneself, as the enterprise > increases in size. There is never a shortage of good ideas. Some seem > compelling and urgent, but a smart manager must decide what will pay > with some certainty, and what will not; and what omission is likely to > have serious adverse consequences, and what can safely be risked. Allen, I could not have put it better myself. The amateur with just a couple of hives at the bottom of the garden is often happy the his or her outlay is greater than the return, as with most hobbies. However, a commercial, or semi-commercial beekeeper, who has invested serious money in his or her beekeeping enterprise becomes much more focused on management issues and risk assessment is a major part of management. For example, we have just had some truly awful weather. It has been cold, wet or windy since 1 May. Major sources of honey (winter rape, horsechestnut, hawthorn) are all nearly finished and there is very little honey in the supers. In addition, many colonies are trying to swarm, even though in some cases there are few bees in the supers. Under these conditions inspections have been very difficult and I have had to ask myself, 'Is it better to open colonies under these conditions and risk chilling brood to prevent swarming (hoping that this will ultimately result in a better crop when/if the weather improves), or should I sit at home and let them get on with it?' Answers on a postcard please! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:11:26 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Queen Mandibular Pheromone Dave Green said of "bee attractants": > The biggest problem is that there are often no bees to attract. For > about the same cost (as treating the bloom with the pheromone), a > grower could place a hive per acre, and bee sure. Oh, sorry if I was unclear - the studies were done with bees placed in the crop for pollination. None of the products made any detectable difference at all under these conditions, assumed to be "good" placement and hive density. It goes without saying that in cases without hive placement, the studies tend to also indicate that one will also not see any difference, since these products are claimed to be targeted at honey bees, not at other ("native") pollinators. Bottom line, QMP appears to be a great short-range tool for specific narrow-focus applications, but does not appear to be an effective long-range tool for any practical application. jim (who would never be so crass as to ask "What does the Queen smell like?") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:12:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: screened bottom boards Bob said: > On a final note if we move to controls like formic acid gel (or even liquid > formic acid) the fumes will sink from the hive (heavier than air) through > the screened bottom board without controlling varroa (reported at the 2003 > ABF convention by the makers of "mitegone " formic acid pads). I had this concern about my thymol treatment when I started installing OMFs last year. However, initial results show 19% overall winter losses, but only 9% on the OMFs. I am not claiming any sort of scientific validity for these results - too many variables - but I think that it does suggest that there was not major problem with the thymol vapour being lost through the OMFs. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:08:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan Robin said: >and a monthly check is sufficient to show up the colonies getting infected from outside Can't agree with this. After a month there can be a considerable amount of debris making it very difficult to estimate the number of varroa. I have tried this in the past and then taken the debris home for a thorough count. The estimate was always wrong. There is also the matter of waxmoths - in this area your tray would be alive after a month! >Isn't Varooa one of the most serious problems we have? I am not sure that it is! In my view we lose far more bees (and therefore production) to chalk brood than to varroa, which is easily, cheaply and well controlled by my treatment regime. EFB has been a major problem in this area and that means loss of brood, comb and frames - which does not happen with varroa. Another real concern is the possibility of SHB arriving. >Are we taking any steps against the day when Apistan is no longer effective against invasion by resitant mites As someone who has never used Apistan (or Bayvarol) - Yes! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:42:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Mint = bee repelent? Not sure about bees, but mint has long been recommended for keeping flies out of the house. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 17:41:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance in Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This morning I looked at the 5 mites that had fallen from one hive over the previous 24 hours. I used a x10 magnifying glass. One was alive and kicking. Another had the wherewithall to kick, but was unable to do so as it was dead and had a couple of large dents in the carapace. The other 3 were more or less legless and 2 of these also had carapace damage, one having lost almost a third of it. This isn't the first time I have looked at fallen mites in that hive but haven't noticed the damage before. However, last year in another hive in a different apiary I recorded over a sequence of observations over several months that there was a gradual but marked increase in the percentage of fallen mites showing signs of damage. I know that these observations are not by a large margin a scientific study, merely anecdote, but they do prompt the question - Is this an indication of learning in the hive? My reason for wondering this is that I would assume a relatively constant proportion in a hive if it was random grooming or inherited instinct. What does the team think? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 17:22:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa resistance in Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/05/03 05:04:50 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: Robin Dartington wrote << These can rebuild the population back to the treatment threshold over one year - unless suppressed with say thymol, or drone brood culling , >> So it's suppression rather than prophyllaxis. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 17:17:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance in Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where is there ANY colony with 70,000 bees in it? George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 16:37:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Mint = bee repelent? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/25/2003 12:10:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, Pollinator@SC.RR.COM writes: > "Spread mint on your picnic cloth and you won't > >be bothered by bees." On another list, a beekeeper says he rubs the inside of a hive with peppermint and the bees are attracted to the trap hive. Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:21:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Mint = bee repelent? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From:Paul D. Law (aka Dennis) > "Spread mint on your picnic cloth and you won't > be bothered by bees." > Other comments?... On at least one other list, mint is recommended to rub on the inside of a box prior to catching a swarm, to get them to accept it better. Several sources I've seen recommend mint or lemon balm to grow near bees or add to a smoker to keep them calm. I doubt either would work as a repellant. Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:33:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: screened bottom boards In-Reply-To: <336401c322e7$28381660$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 3) It is not too much trouble to cut some 1/4-inch luan plywood and > nail it to the base of the screen assembly, which creates a place > for the sticky board, and increases the structural strength of the > thing considerably. A nailed or screwed-in solid "plug" for the > front gap between plywood and screen, and a removable solid > "plug" for the rear are also good ideas for those who don't like > random beasties taking up residence under their hives. Instead of a solid bottom, I build mine the same as those from Brushy Mtn -- with criss-crossed strings (slots could also be used, depending on the "sticky board" size) on the underside to hold a stiff piece of plastic (for checking mites), allowing the bottom to remain open most of the time (rather than accumulating wax moths as a nailed-on bottom or a second bottom board does -- been there, tried that). Also, it is more convenient to open an area on the bottom of the screened board (i.e., remove some of the bottom bracing at the rear), so that you can insert your "sticky board" from the rear, rather than the front. It is easier to build the bottom board to be checked from the front, but then you stand in front of the bees while messing with the board and counting mites (or move a lot). Checking from the rear, the bees seldom pay attention to you and you are less likely to get a few extra stings for your efforts. Karen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:29:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jim said: "if Peter were to use and check sticky boards on all his > hives weekly, it would consume a full 8-hour workday every week!!" > > Yes, agreed, which is why sticky boards are such a clumsy method and > a simpler method is needed. Permanent plastic wipe-clean trays under > permanent mesh floors take say 15 to 30 seconds This debate is possibly the answer to the original question: why don't most beekeepers routinely sample natural mite drops? People think it is too difficult, time consuming, technical, and that it needs too much equipment, and no matter how it is done, someone will say it's done incorrectly, to much, too little, too accurately, too casually, or with the wrong method or equipment. The point that needs to be made is this: any test is better than none, and it only takes a few minutes to make the first Mickey Mouse (tm) try at it. After that, maybe debating the details and different methods, timing, sample rates, counting procedures. meaning of results and whether to multiply by 30 or 300, etc. etc. etc. may be useful, BUT Hey, everyone, if you have never done this, grab a sheet of something stiff and white. right now, and smear it with vaseline, cooking oil, Pam (tm) or whatever, find a screen of some sort, and stick it into your hive entrance. Go back tomorrow, or in a few days and pull it out. Take a look. You'll be glad you did. Count the mites you see and multiply by 100. If the number is more than 1,000, then look for help. Post the details of what you found (and where you live etc.) here for comment, if you wish, or should I say, dare. After that, then try to figure out all the technicalities. (Hey you guys in Aus can do this too). allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Today, I'm the best equipped hobby beekeeper in this universe. 25 hives left, period. 5 trucks, a Swinger, 4- 72 frame extractors, a wax press, 5,000 supers, 2,500 gallons of syrup, and more... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:27:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Mint = bee repelent? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Fielder wrote: > I wonder which Mint? > > I have several times had a strong peppermint smelling honey when extracting. > On the strength of that I searched and found several acres of overgrown > peppermint in an unused field. George, Could also be basswood or linden which has a pronounced mint taste and smell. Not sure if peppermint nectar has a peppermint smell. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:42:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Mint = bee repellent? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Karen Oland wrote: >On at least one other list, mint is recommended to rub on the inside of a >box prior to catching a swarm, to get them to accept it better. Several >sources I've seen recommend mint or lemon balm to grow near bees or add to a >smoker to keep them calm. I doubt either would work as a repellant. Yes. About 2000 years Collumela recommended smearing crushed lemon balm and wax flowers on the inside of swarm hives. Those substances contain some of the chemicals found in the Nasanov glands. We have a lot of lemon balm and lemon grass in our yard and still have honey bees visiting. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:57:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Charles B. Cromer" Subject: Re: What to do fpr a wet bee??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hate to say this, and it may sound cruel, but if you are going to be a beekeeper you are going to kill lots of bees in your time. It is almost unavoidable. I too hate the fact of killing anyone of my girls, but sometimes one has to accept certain things in life. Killing bees is one of them in beekeeping. I don't know how many times I have winced when I place a inner cover or a super down that I hear the sickening crunch of my girls getting killed, but it is all part of it. I just suck it up and take heart in that fact that around 1000 bees are hatching shortly to make up for the 5 I just killed. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:46:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Mares Subject: Re: Outright Malice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm trying to collect a few tales of outright malice toward bees (and beekeepers). Can anyone help on-List, or off? Thanks. Bill Mares Mares Apiaries 429 S. Willard St. Burlington, VT 05401 _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:33:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: "Braking" for bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul D. Law's post about saving wet bees got me to thinking about one of = my own bee related idiosyncrasies. I brake for bees. Whenever I'm = mowing the lawn, and see a bee of any kind (but especially one of my = girls) on a flower, I stop, and patiently wait for it to move on before = I continue. I pause probably 15 times or more each time I mow. My = neighbor probably thinks I have narcolepsy... Anyone else out there admit to similar behavior? Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:40:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: "Braking" for bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anyone else out there admit to similar behavior? Guilty. Actually I just slow down enough to nudge the flowed to hurry the bee on her way. Aaron Morris - I thinkg, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:50:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: "Braking" for bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/26/2003 12:38:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, signguy@SOVER.NET writes: > Paul D. Law's post about saving wet bees got me to thinking about one of my > own bee related idiosyncrasies. I brake for bees. Whenever I'm mowing the > lawn, and see a bee of any kind (but especially one of my girls) on a flower, > I stop, and patiently wait for it to move on before I continue. I pause > probably 15 times or more each time I mow. My neighbor probably thinks I have > narcolepsy... > > Anyone else out there admit to similar behavior? Todd, We have a red plastic cup and an envelope. My husband catches the bugs in the house in the cup and slides the envelope under the cup and releases them back outdoors. I catch bees in the house by the wing and liberate them to the outdoors! I stop watering plants that have bees on them. Right now, I have Foxglove in bloom and the hummers and bees love them. I have several over 7 feet tall! Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:12:31 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote > (Hey you guys in Aus can do this too). We don't use your method but we have been testing beekeepers by sugar shake method for mites and some queen breeders by flumethrin strips. We also have sentinel hives at ports which are regularly checked with flumethrin strips. Negative results so far. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 16:43:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lance Parr Subject: Re: "Braking" for bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I brake for bees. >Anyone else out there admit to similar behavior? Of course. I do this all the time. Mowing in the apiary in front of entrances is particularly challenging. It takes a few more minutes to wait for those who miss the landing board to move, and I sometimes have to give them some help, but I would never mow down one of my girls. I don't care what the neighbors think. Take care, Lance Parr Network Specialist II Physical Plant Telecommunications Texas A&M University Mail Stop 1371 College Station, Texas 77843-1371 L-Parr@tamu.edu (979) 458-1746 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:47:23 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Outright Malice Hold onto your library cards! Looks like Bill Mares is working on another book... > I'm trying to collect a few tales of outright malice > toward bees (and beekeepers). For a wide range of classic examples of both, one need look no further than the archives of Bee-L itself! The imposition of moderation has stopped the bulk of the outright malice towards beekeepers on Bee-L but there are reports every month of practices that would most charitably described as "outright malice" towards bees. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l&D=0 jim (Who once stopped to think, and had difficulty starting again.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:30:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Mint = bee repelent? In-Reply-To: <3ED0CC9E.32260.150ED6B@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Myth. Not only won't it repel honeybees, I have serious doubts about it's ability to repel wasps. Just today, I knocked down two wasps nest within 5 feet of my wife's herb garden which includes a large and very fragrant patch of peppermint and another of lemon balm. Bumblebees love the mint when it flowers. I've only rarely seen honeybees on the mint but they don't fly around the patch either. I can endorse the use of mint in a smoker, though. I first used it a year ago almost by accident. I'd just cut the grass and had nothing else handy to trap the sparks. The smoke seemed sweeter than normal and the bees were much easier to work with. I don't know if the mint had a direct impact on the bees or if the better smell made me calmer and therefore a marginally better beekeeper. But everytime since I find that I'm happier when I use mint in the top of the smoker. Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 06:26:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Styrofoam Hives Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said, > OK, I'll bite... > > So you tested UNWRAPPED "styrofoam" hives against wrapped > wooden hives? > > And you did not add any sort of upper entrance to the > styrofoam hives? > I've never used styrofoam equipment, and am only a hobbyist/sideliner, but it would seem that some humble observations might be in order here (should I put on my flame-proof suit now? :) My understanding is that Stryofoam equipment is tight fitting, and obviously already insulated. Tar paper adds no significant insulation value, only an air/wind barrier for loose fitting wooden ware. Thus, tar paper would add no real value to styro hives, but would change the color of the hive and the solar gain. It would seem then, to achieve "good" science here, there are two primary issues: 1) The color of the test/control groups should be the same. 2) Upper/lower entrances (ventilation methods) on both groups should be identical. So, to me, it would seem that one should wrap the wooden ware to achieve "tightness" similar to foam, paint the foam hives black to match solar gain (or paint the tar paper white), and create (as closely as possible) identical hive openings between the two groups. Obviously, the more variables we can remove, the better the final data. My 2.5 cents worth of back yard bee science. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:39:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Styrofoam Hives Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1) The color of the test/control groups should be the same. > > 2) Upper/lower entrances (ventilation methods) on both groups should > be identical. One thing I forgot to mention, is that Aaron uses stryo hives and his are painted -- yellow -- as I recall. Seems to me he says his best wintering was in them, and his losses were in the (unwrapped) wooden hives. Can't recall if he had top ventilation or not. Aaron? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:33:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Styrofoam Hives Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My understanding is that Stryofoam equipment is tight fitting, and > obviously already insulated. My understanding is that people usually paint them and, from what I have seen, a dark color. (I had hoped Mats and/or Murray might jump in here). > 1) The color of the test/control groups should be the same. Well, two different sytems were under (a rather casual) test, and the idea was to use them each in the way that the originators use them, not to try to impose parts of one system on another system. I've been assured that (most?) users of styro hives do not use top entrances; there is a mesh hole in the floor to provide the necessary ventilation. > 2) Upper/lower entrances (ventilation methods) on both groups should > be identical. Only if comparing the boxes only, not to compare the systems. > Obviously, the more variables we can remove, the better the final > data. The end results of two sets of variables (systems) were actaully what were being compared. The only factors that I feel might have been uncontrolled or inconsistent with the proper method, were: 1.) a. Disturbing one group, and not the other, late in fall and b. not allowing the bees time before winter to adapt to the new hive space. 2.) Not painting the plastic boxes 3.) Using our pillows under the lids 4.) Perhaps the hive volume in two standard boxes is greater than some use in wintering styro hives. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:35:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards said [in connection with making just monthy checks of trays for varooa]:> > Can't agree with this. After a month there can be a considerable amount of > debris making it very difficult to estimate the number of varroa. I have > tried this in the past and then taken the debris home for a thorough count. > The estimate was always wrong. There is also the matter of waxmoths - in > this area your tray would be alive after a month! Regular checks just to find the odd colony that has picked up varooa from outside only need mites counts on a scale of two - 'few', or 'lots'. If there is too much rubbish to see even that, wipe clean and check again after only a week. I use yellow plastic tea trays [costing 85p - say $1.20] from the hardware shop, as mites show well against yellow. Wipe the trays with petroleum jelly so the rubbish comes away easily. If moth larvae are there, wipe them away - and be glad they were there and not right in the hive - the trays act as a moth trap. Just before u think of annual treatments, certainly clean and check again after a week as then u do need to estimate numbers as carefully as u can. UK trays have handles at the ends - cut these off to reduce the total length of the tray to 375mm - they then jam tight under the mesh floor [without need for support battens] since the walls of the hive are 371mm apart. Trays must be 2 inches or more below the mesh - mites are then unable to sense the bees above and do not crawl back even without an oil barrier. > >Isn't Varooa one of the most serious problems we have? Peter said: > > I am not sure that it is! We must not forget that varooa mites are in every single hive once they have arrived in an area, and every hive dies out with say 5 years at most if not treated effectively. Most other diseases affect only a few colonies and are not so deadly. Varooa is only controlled so effectively because of Apistan - scientists have not had as much success with thymol as Peter or we would all know of it. Even Vita [who make both Apistan and Apiguard which contains thymol] do not advocate using only Apiguard. So until another treatment as effective as Apistan is actually on the market, surely varooa remains a major threat and we need to promote methods of use that will delay [inevitable] development of resistance for as long as we can. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:10:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards mused: 'Is it better to open colonies under these conditions [wet, windy, cold] and risk > chilling brood to prevent swarming (hoping that this will ultimately result > in a better crop when/if the weather improves), or should I sit at home and > let them get on with it?' If we are looking to improve current definitions of good beekeeping practice [in order to attract more people into beekeeping], surely we have to promote regular inspections for swarm preparations - or more beekeepers will only produce more swarms and restrictions may be introduced. So there really is no choice - we have to find ways to look, even in bad weather. Once again, the problem then becomes, how can we improve equipment so that the task is easier. I realise that some beekeepers cannot envisage that the conventional tiered hive [National or Langstoth] can possibly be improved on - they should read no further. The Long Deep hive does however offer help here [and in other ways]. All brood combs are deep, and at one level - so there is no upper brood box to lift off that would expose the centre of the nest to cold - all u have to do is lift off the single layer of honeyboxes. The box is long enough for the combs to be parted horizontally within the box without lifting them up into the cold wind. If queen cells are there, the prominent ones on the comb faces show up. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:54:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon rightly queried if it was right to say EFB was apparently very infectious and also that equipment apparently remains infective for 40 years. The best written support I can find (listed below) is inconclusive. However, estimates of the infective period will only be anecdotal, as it is unlikely any scientist would seal away EFB infected combs and test at periods up to 40 years later. MAFF pamphlet: Foul brood disease .., 1996: "It appears that infection can develop over a period of months or years, debilitating but not killing the colony . During this time, signs of the disaese may become more or less severe or disappear altogether. ..Eventually the disease is likely to reach a stage where a high proportion of the brood is affected and the colony will be weakened and ultimately killed". So "infection persists for years" . Bailey & Ball, Honey Bee Pathology, 1991:p43 " .The bacteria are discharged with the faeces and deposited on the walls of the brood-comb cells. The deposits occur mainly on the base and cappings of the cell and M. pluton in them remains infective, possibly for several years". So, several years. Bailey, Honey Bee Pathology, 1991:p1963: p28 " S. pluton remains alive in dry smears . for at least three years. p136 "As S. pluton stays alive in a dormant state for several years it is obvious that equipment , especially combs, will carry infection. If it is not destroyed, it should be sterilised. Fumes of ascetic acid .for between 5 and 15 minutes ... Combs with dead brood or sealed brood should be destroyed..." So, "several years and at least 3 years". Hooper, Guide to Bees and Honey , 2nd edn 1983 p199, on AFB: " Infection can be carried over a great number of years by equipment and combs, certainly for as long as thirty-five years ." So at least 35 years for AFB - but no equally firm statement for EFB. So I was incorrect when lumping the two togther. However, as equipment is not normally out of use for over 3 years, In feel we can say that in practice all equipment has to be destroyed or sterilised when EFB has been found. As OTC merely inhibits the bacteria while OTC is in bee's stomachs - and does not clean the combs - it is difficult to understand why beekeepers use it regularly. The symptoms of EFB disappear naturally when the brood peak is passed - but return again next year , worse, if the combs remain. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:37:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan In-Reply-To: <200305220059.h4M0g6aj024738@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200305220059.h4M0g6aj024738@listserv.albany.edu>, Tim Vaughan writes >One could do that if one is willing to forget several normal harvests. I am unclear how this is so. I am now rearing from my best colonies with a view to replacing the queens of all poorer colonies as soon as I can and follow the mite falls afterwards to check which are indeed better. > But >I don't have any philosophical or religious hang-ups with using chemicals. The point is that treating uniformly rather then as needed hides good quality. If this good quality was added to the set of criteria then surely the bees would get better. Animal and plant breeders do it. The best of the best are also very gentle. In your case, if all are gentle, then further selection would be a bonus. If not, then what do you do? Requeen? -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:23:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan In-Reply-To: <005701c3230e$1455fdc0$07b687d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <005701c3230e$1455fdc0$07b687d9@oemcomputer>, Peter Edwards writes >After a month there can be a considerable amount of >debris making it very difficult to estimate the number of varroa. I have >tried this in the past and then taken the debris home for a thorough count. I sieve the debris through two mesh sizes - one to let mites through and keep pollen etc behind, the other top keep mites (mature) and let frass through. What's left is roughly 50:50 mites and rubbish - easy to count and examine. >The estimate was always wrong. There is also the matter of waxmoths - in >this area your tray would be alive after a month! Many colonies seem to drop small wax moth grubs down through the mesh and they thrive - a week is long enough! Robin said >>Isn't Varooa one of the most serious problems we have? > >I am not sure that it is! In my view we lose far more bees (and therefore >production) to chalk brood than to varroa, which is easily, cheaply and well >controlled by my treatment regime. Chalk brood seems on the increase and may have something to do with varroa. In some hives all the first lot of drone brood had chalk brood - at least it seems to be natural negative feedback culling mites. > EFB has been a major problem in this >area and that means loss of brood, comb and frames - which does not happen >with varroa. Unless you leave the treatment too long. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:47:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance in Bees In-Reply-To: <150.1f9672a4.2c02927f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <150.1f9672a4.2c02927f@aol.com>, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes >This morning I looked at the 5 mites that had fallen from one hive over the >previous 24 hours. I used a x10 magnifying glass. One was alive and kicking. >Another had the wherewithall to kick, but was unable to do so as it was dead >and had a couple of large dents in the carapace. The other 3 were more or less >legless and 2 of these also had carapace damage, one having lost almost a >third of it. This is a small number for mite damage. The most recent info I had was that grooming is a response to a larger, perhaps irritating infestation and therefore throws down large numbers. Maybe you have a colony that does it as the norm. Have you considered breeding from it? Lots of sons and daughters??? This is very promising indeed. I look forward to a serial reporting on mite fall and damage. >I recorded over a sequence of observations over several months >that >there was a gradual but marked increase in the percentage of fallen mites >showing signs of damage. > >I know that these observations are not by a large margin a scientific study, >merely anecdote, Many an anecdote builds into science. This is a serious observation from an alert chap, studying his bees. > but they do prompt the question - Is this an indication of >learning in the hive? My reason for wondering this is that I would assume a >relatively constant proportion in a hive if it was random grooming or inherited >instinct. This is what John Dews reported and he suggested (privately) it was a learned trait. This would be why it did not figure in Harbo's results, though if it is learned, then it must be inherited that they do learn. Again, Harbo's testing was perhaps over too short a time to pick it up. Though his error margins (scientific for degree of uncertainty) were high. >What does the team think? That's what I think, young man. I will forward your post to John and Albert Knight. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:40:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan James Kilty writes "The point is that treating uniformly rather then as needed hides good quality. If this good quality was added to the set of criteria then surely the bees would get better. Animal and plant breeders do it. The best of the best are also very gentle. In your case, if all are gentle, then further selection would be a bonus. If not, then what do you do? Requeen?" I requeen for gentleness, but if I could spend 2 dollars and 10 minutes once a year to make my bees gentle, like I do to keep my bees mite free, I would. And yes, breeders do it, but very few commerical farmers. It will be nice if you can breed a strain of bees that are productive, disease resistant, mite resistent and gentle. I don't have the resources or knowledge though. Regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 19:13:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: didik purwanto Subject: dorsata honey Comments: To: generalbeekeeping@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <00b101c3235b$caba29e0$2d0645c8@pc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm a part time beekeeper, raising Apis cerana, Apis mellifera, and having a good collaboration with honey hunter of Apis dorsata. When I was in Apimondia conference at Durban (South Africa) in 2002, I met somebody from UK who was interest to import the dorsata honey from Indonesia (he sold honey from Kalimantan/Borneo - Indonesia). But in any reason I lost his address. I hope some body here can help me to have a communication with him or somebody else interesting this product. regard didik --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chalk brood seems on the increase and may have something to do with varroa. U.S. research does not support the above hypothesis. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:06:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin said: We must not forget that varooa mites are in every single hive once they have arrived in an area, and every hive dies out with say 5 years at most if not treated effectively. Many hives have been left untreated to see how long it takes for varroa to kill the hive. Two years is the usual time frame when left untreated *unless* you are dealing with a hive which is very hygienic or has exceptional survivor traits (SMR etc.). Quite a bit of discussion about the subject is in the archives and will support the two year *general* statement Robin said: Varooa is only controlled so effectively because of Apistan Apistan has been history in most parts of the U.S. for quite a few years. Returning to Apistan after three or four years has met with failure also. Robin said: - scientists have not had as much success with thymol as Peter or we would all know of it. Even Vita [who make both Apistan and Apiguard which contains thymol] do not advocate using only Apiguard. U.S. tests on Thymol have never produced effiacy in the range claimed by vita Europe. I wish I could report better news. thymol does provide a certain amount of control but needs to be used in warm weather such as August in the Midwest. The problem with a control in the 50 to 60% range (thymol testing reported U.S.) is the carry over load of varroa from treatement period to treatment period. . Even formic acid liquid has trouble knocking back a high infestation of varroa and in my opinion thymol would also. I might point out for those new to the discussion that there is a point called *threshold* (or varroa mite load) when reached that the hive CAN NOT BE SAVED REGARDLESS OF TREATMENT METHOD. The point I tried to make above is when you are below threshold but not by a huge amount and you try to clear the hive with a 50-60% control you are spinning your wheels. I predict when resistance to Apistan happens you will soon find fault with thymol. The still effective Apistan treatment (U.K.) is making the thymol treatment seem more effective in my opinion. Bob Ps. In the U.S were are in the same varroa book but in later chapters. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 01:23:07 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan Yes, I know the subject has a typo. I am leaving it be so as to stay in the same "thread" for those who sort the deluge of Bee-L messages by subject/title. I have also been informed by a surprisingly large number of people who clearly have far too much time on their hands that I recently spelled "Nasanov" (pheromone) as "Nasarov". My abject apologies. To review, play something by "Nasarov" on the stereo while putting the "Nasanov" in the bait hives. :) ...anyway, Trevor Weatherhead said: > We don't use your method but we have been testing > beekeepers by sugar shake method for mites I don't think anyone who has to deal with varroa mites would say that the "sugar shake" was as "reliable" a test as an ether roll when attempting to detect a low-level infestation. I'd hazard that most experts would agree that the risk of false negatives and certainty of lower counts is a factor when using the sugar shake as compared to the ether roll. Now, the difference between the two tests is no big deal when one knows that one has varroa, and one is simply testing for that elusive "economic threshold". Beekeepers are clearly more willing to do the sugar shakes on a regular basis, since it does not force one to kill any bees. The sugar-shake test is a good thing for areas known to have varroa. But if other beekeepers would try this, and report results to the group, we may be able to prove a crucial point to those who are lucky enough to not yet have enough varroa of their own to test this: 1) Do a sugar shake, transfer the bees to a second (clean) jar, and do an ether roll. The mites that you see in the ether roll jar are the ones that the sugar shake missed. (I'll bet that even a skilled sugar shaker can get at least a single-digit varroa count in the ether bottle with ease.) 2) If you want, do multiple sugar shakes in a succession of clean jars on the same set of bees, and then transfer them to the ether jar. You will have a very good chance of getting a mite count with the ether no matter how many times you sugar shake. (I'll concede that some ether rolls may show "zero mites" after several consecutive and aggressive sugar shakes in a row.) Given the Australian goal of wanting to find the FIRST varroa mites to show up in a hive, and detect them as early as possible, I'd have to suggest that we owe it to our Australian colleagues to verify that the sugar shake is NOT a good "sentinel test" when the goal is to find very low-level mite infestations. > and some queen breeders by flumethrin strips. We also have sentinel > hives at ports which are regularly checked with flumethrin strips. > Negative results so far. I know that flumethrin is very similar chemically to fluvalinate (Apistan), but does anyone know why the USA uses fluvalinate rather than flumethrin? Again, the concern is that Australia, who has yet to see a varroa mite, may benefit from the hard-won field experience in actual hand-to-hand (ok, "hand-to-tarsal claw", if you must) combat with these mites. jim (who's mighty mites might alight in the night, or might not) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 06:11:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/05/03 05:14:25 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << So, several years. Bailey, Honey Bee Pathology, 1991:p1963: p28 " S. pluton remains alive in dry smears . for at least three years. p136 "As S. pluton stays alive in a dormant state for several years it is obvious that equipment , especially combs, will carry infection. If it is not destroyed, it should be sterilised. Fumes of ascetic acid .for between 5 and 15 minutes ... >> Thanks for that Robin. It answers a question I posed some time ago as to whether Acetic acid fumes killed EFB as well as Nosema. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 06:09:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Long Deep Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/05/03 05:14:25 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I realise that some beekeepers cannot envisage that the conventional tiered hive [National or Langstoth] can possibly be improved on - they should read no further. The Long Deep hive does however offer help here [and in other ways]. All brood combs are deep, and at one level - so there is no upper brood box to lift off that would expose the centre of the nest to cold - all u have to do is lift off the single layer of honeyboxes. >> Robin, I think there is one way the Long Deep hive can be improved upon (must get around to building one soon - trouble is all the measurements are metric and my bees are Imperial). The supers are not on the hive for most of the time. Therefore the bees don't need the gaps between the frame tops. The addition of a thin strip of wood (vaselined against propolis) to seal each gap would enable cool weather inspections of a few frames to be made without so much loss of heat or disturbance to the bees. There is plenty of bottom ventilation with the open mesh floor. One of the advantages of the TBH is that the TBs but. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 06:05:21 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: "Braking" for bees Todd said: > I brake for bees. Whenever I'm mowing the lawn... Well, here it is oh-six-hundred, and I just got in from doing some dawn-patrol weed-eater work around the wooden barracks of the "84th through 121st aerial reconnaissance squadrons" before their first sorties of the day. If you get up early enough, you can cut by the dawn's early light, and enjoy the cooler temperatures, certain that the bees are not yet foraging. Waiting until dusk is an option for those who don't remember what a sunrise looks like. Of course, you might trip and fall if it is still too dark, not a good idea with a running weed-eater or lawn mower. ...would such a fall be "brake-dancing" for bees? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 05:05:40 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote > I don't think anyone who has to deal with varroa mites would say > that the "sugar shake" was as "reliable" a test as an ether roll > when attempting to detect a low-level infestation. I would agree but nowadays with Occupational Health and Safety (OH&S) ether seems to be a no no unless you dress up in a space suit and you are licenced to use ether. New Zealand did some work to show that a double sugar shake increase the "detectability" a great percentage. At least if we do something it is better than nothing, having in mind OH&S requirements. OH&S is now going to ends where I found out that in one State in Australia, beekeepers will now have to do a risk management plan for all sorts of things such as if a person comes onto your property, you must have a plan in place, written down for inspection, in case that person gets stung. Getting a bit over the top???? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:02:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: The magic of the hexagon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nature has many examples of six-sidded structures. Honeybees and other insect make six-sided cells which conserves material and builds a rigid interlocking storage compartment; mud and permafrost tends to crack along a hexagon shape so says a geologost friend, and snowflakes are supposedly six sided. The mathematics of six sides is special in nature. In closeup photography of a honeybee's eye the individual retinal cells are six-sided. Apparently tiling a surface is made easier with six-sided cells. I give many presentations each year on honeybees and I am looking for more good examples of six-sidedness, especial with regard to honeybees, but in all of nature in general. Do you have any more examples to add to my list of the special uses of six-sidedness? Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:03:34 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anthony Morgan Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8r-Tr=F8ndelag_University_College?= Subject: Morphology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Many are aware of Dave Cushman's site with among much else information on bee morphology: http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/morphometry.html also David Eyre's site with a downloadable spreadsheet: http://www.beeworks.com/morphometry/Index3.htm And most will have (via BIBBA-L or the Apis Newsletter) seen reference to the somewhat more sophisticated programme available at: http://www.hockerley.plus.com I have just come across a pair of free programmes available from: http://www.cybis.se/forfun/index.htm namely "CooRecorder" and "CBeeWing" which are in my opinion well worth investigating by anyone interested in measuring cubital index and discoidal shift. The site also contains some very practical How-To information. cheers Tony ----------------------------------------------------------- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:12:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If Acetic acid works on EFB, what keeps it from working on AFB? Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:53:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Styrofoam Hives Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > One thing I forgot to mention, is that Aaron uses stryo hives and his > are painted -- yellow -- as I recall. > > Seems to me he says his best wintering was in them, and his > losses were > in the (unwrapped) wooden hives. Can't recall if he had top > ventilation > or not. > > Aaron? Yes, I was quick to test the styro hives when they were first marketed in the US, and I'm glad I did! I had very good wintering results (although the sample size was limited (7)). Of the 7 I lost one. All were populated late in the season (early August); only 3 built into doubles; 4 were over-wintered as singles; the one I lost was a single. Of the 6 survivors, 4 were splitable this spring (2 of the doubles and 2 of the singles). One of the doubles was split twice! First, I painted the hives a straw yellow from the mis-matched color bargain bin paint counter. I had no color-design/testing hypothesis/parameter equalization in mind when I had paint brush in hand. Second, I did provide "limited" upper ventilation. The inner cover was notched for winter access/egress, but I kept the notch on the up side of the inner cover (the bees had to use the center hole of the inner cover to walk to the notch to fly). I was advised by a prominent, now retired beekeeper to leave the notch down, but I left it up, as is my winter habit on all my hives. My original intent to test the styro hives was to evaluate 10. I purchased 20 deep boxes, 10 bottom boards, 10 inner and 10 outer covers. Some not retired beekeepers have advised to skip the styro covers based on their cost, but I wanted to evaluate the whole system. Unfortunately, due to my involvement with EAS 2002, I didn't get around to installing bees in the boxes until after the conference, so my guess is the bees didn't see the boxes much before August 15th. I don't have my records handy as I write this, but my recollection is that I moved developing splits into the styro hives. The splits were set up sometime in July, so they would have been 5-frame nucs with a New World Carniolan queen from a West Coast breeder. I had hoped with a good fall flow the colonies would have built into both deep boxes, but that didn't pan out for 4 of the 7. The bottom box contained drawn comb; the top box was foundation. Apparently it was asking too much of the colony to draw and fill the second box (although 3 of 7 did). I did not feed the bees to entice them to draw the foundation. The ones that did not fill the second deep had the second deep removed VERY late in the season (after Thanksgiving, but before December) and at least one, perhaps 2 of the 3 doubles had the boxes reversed in the same timeframe. The removed boxes were partially drawn but not filled. Conclusions? Well, having made no effort to minimize variables or set up controls I can only make anecdotal claims. It was far from a controlled scientific experiment. My successes in styrofoam about equaled my failures in wood; I lost 1 in 7 in styrofoam, I lost 7 in 8 in wood. I had horrendous losses this past winter, and have been going all out to refill my deadouts. I cannot attribute the successes totally to the styrofoam system. A blaring shortfall in the evaluation/comparison is that the styro hives ALL were splits with new queens, as opposed to the variables associated with the colonies in wood (some of the in-wood colonies had new queens, some had second year queens, all were honey production hives, many were nucleus donors, some were spits that spring, some were over wintered from 2001). My record keeping fell off right around EAS 2002, and I have been too busy this spring to attempt any sort of SWAG regarding the in-wood survivors, as their variables are all over the board. The styro-hives are easier to evaluate. So, CONCLUSIONS? Everything is anecdotal. Losses of 1 in 7 vs. 7 in 8 is to me a no brainer and I should repeat whatever it was I did with the 1 in 7 group. Thankfully, Ann Harmon is already coordinating the EAS 2003 Short Course! (Incidentally, the deadline for early registration for EAS 2003 at Bowdoin, Maine is June 14th; see http://easternapiculture.org/programs/2003/ .) I am STRONGLY suspect that the styro hives had a lot to do with the winter survival. So much so that I bought another 10 sets of bottoms/inner/outer covers with the intent to populate a full 20 single deeps with splits in mid/late July to over winter. I do not intend to set up comparable splits in wood, unless someone is willing to bankroll the experiment (bees, equipment and my time). I cannot argue that the conclusions have been reached without scientific verification. So be it. I do not see a need to wrap the styro hives; they're quite tight, well insulated and amply ventilated. But wrapping is a red herring in my beekeeping world; I do not make the time to wrap my hives. That's a management decision I make to fit MY schedule and it works most years. Perhaps my losses would not have been so bad had I wrapped my wooden hives last fall. Many will say yes, but that's in the realm of woulda/coulda/shoulda, and in MY schedule, wrapping wonta/canta/ainta gonna happen. So I'll jump to the conclusion that styro hives are the answer to wintering in the inhospitable northeast and quickly acquiesce to those who counter based on the lack of scientifically controlled experiments to back up my conclusion. I had good results as stated above. So good that I'm going to expand and see if I can repeat on what I did that worked well last year. I don't have the time/resources/inclinations to collect the emperical data to publish valid scientific conclusions, but if I can repeat and triple my styro successes, I can live with that. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:16:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: The magic of the hexagon In-Reply-To: <1d4.a86cf30.2c05ff56@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 28 May 2003 at 8:02, Rick Green wrote: > Do you have any more examples to add to my list > of the special uses of six-sidedness? The 200 inch mirror of the telescope at Mount Palomar was cast before the computer era, by technicians at Corning Glass. The engineers spent a couple years calculating with their slide rules to find the perfect shape for maximum strength and rigidity for this huge glass object, which we all know is not only brittle, but weak and subject to movement. What they came up with was the hexagon for the reinforcement structure of the back of the mirror. The first cast was cooled too quickly and cracked, so they had to redo it, and take a year to cool the castiing, with rigid control of the temperature, so that it just cooled a couple degrees each day. Of course the bees knew all along how to take a weak and fragile material and maximize its strength by using hexagons. And they didn't even have slide rules. Dave in SC USA Thinking they were taught by someone more brilliant than me... The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 07:29:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At least if we do something it is better than nothing, having in mind > OH&S requirements. In Alberta, the method used before mites arrived was Apistan(tm) and sticky boards applied by a govenment inspector. That's the method that turned up varroa here in NZ package bees a year or more before NZ first discovered varroa in NZ. The Alberta government employee who found the first NZ mites doubted his find, and a second examination showed nothing. (I guess the Apistan got them all). As reported previously, we found varroa in Australian packages, here in one of our yards, several years back. Although the find was in an isolated apiary a month after installation; there had been no rigorous attempt to ensure or verify that isolation; there have been no repeat incidents; and no one else has reported varroa in Australian bees, so the assumption has been that it is probable that the mites were somehow introduced locally here in Canada. As previously observed here, there is no possible method to prove -- practically or theoretically -- total absence of varroa witrh absolute certainty. Detection of the early stages of an infestation is very difficult. The more sensitive, frequent and widespread the testing, the greater the likelihood of early identification. Because eradication of varroa after a find is not probable or usually possible -- varroa is quite elusive, beekeepers are beekeepers, and containment has seldom worked for long -- the main value of early discovery is that the owners of the hives can get onto a detection and treatment programme before damage occurs. It seems to me that, in a situation such as the one Australia faces, there is little benefit for Australians to a highly sensitive test, any more than such a test is useful to me. Very sensitive and widespread tests in Aus would be of benefit to Australia's bee export customers, but actually costly to some Australians: early detection of very low levels might lead to an earlier reduction or cessation of bee exports and prohibitions on migration than would be the case if detection occured later. Even a quick and dirty test like the sugar shake is good enough to protect the Australian beekeepers before the mites reach economic levels, but won't give their package and queen customers much assurance. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:46:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Getting Help from City Fire Department MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bee Folks, A while back our illustrious Jim elaborated as to why we should not “abuse” the meager resources of many of our rural, volunteer fire departments, running mostly on a shoe-string budget, if at all. I agree; however, here is a slight twist in the scenario: how about a city fire department? Yesterday, when I returned from McAlester, Oklahoma, having just bought three mares (two buckskins and one Palomino) for my girls to ride, now that I am on summer vacation, I had a swarm messages recorded both at home and at work, awaiting. When I arrived at the scene there were two identical size swarms, about three to four pounder, dangling very high, about two to three hours old, at Maine and Beard, downtown Shawnee. As you can see in this newspaper article below, they were way up there, making a conventional ladder obsolete. [This year I am observing many primary swarms pitching way up there. What’s going on?] Luckily, there was a fire department, not a volunteer one, within earshot. I ran up there and pleaded my case for bees, mostly crocodile-tearing and hectoring with empty rhetoric. The crew chief then had to call the Fire Marshal if they could let me use their Engine Number One with an expandable ladder, which was located yet in another area of downtown. After haranguing and harassing them for ten minutes, I finally was allowed to use the Number One to remove “public nuisance” as far as I do not *sue* them in case I fall from using “their” ladder. (As you can see in the photo, I tried to use this safety device, at their suggestion, that would hook me into the ladder; however, it prevented me from getting up to reach the bees. So I had to abandon the device. Careful was I since there was a powerline in the way, too) I told him I was on my own like hec. Of course, I made sure the newspaper people show up with their camera so that I could promote the cause for our bees as well as for my summer-time swarm chaser. What bothers me, though, is that the lady-reporter wrote “Italy” bees when in fact I said “Italian bees,” among others. Arrrrgh. Go figure about the lack of public awareness about bees. “Italy bees” sound like a bunch of tourists coming from Italy on summer vacation—-to see what in Oklahoma, tornadoes maybe!? http://www.news-star.com/stories/052803/New_20.shtml# Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:06:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: COMMERCIAL QUEENS & COUMAPHOS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On page 18 of an article by Dr. Malcom Sanford in the June 2003 Bee Culture magazine exploring world wide use of Formic acid he makes a comment on coumaphos use which I wonder myself about. So far my fears have fell on deaf ears. Perhaps others are seeing the same thing with queens in their bees. Dr. Sanford's statement from article: "Far more problematic is the organophosphate called coumaphos. many believe the premature failure (supercedure) of many commercial queens in the U.S. can be blamed on contamination of the nest with this material." I personally believe the above has merit or at least that coumaphos queen contamination is happening . Although researchers are not finding coumaphos levels high enough for researchers to say for sure nest contamination is a problem early queen supercedure is on the rise in hives of commercial beekeepers using checkmite. Bob Harrison hypothesis: I believe the queen spends her whole life on the brood comb and in contact with bees with coumaphos while treatment is going on (Let alone actually crawling over the checkmite strip). Many treat twice a year with more than one checkmite strip so a queen in her second year could have been exposed for four treatments at the end of her second year and a queen at the end of her third year up to six treatment periods of coumaphos. Because several of my close researcher friends have said that from their testing coumaphos contamination in brood comb is in their opinion not high enough in the general commercial hive population to be causing the supercedure problem I have decided they are probabbly right and the problem is a contamination problem with the queen herself. I also believe that queens in their second and third season are at the most risk. Queen loss among commercial beekeepers this year in California was at record numbers and many were at a loss to understand why. Comments? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:52:32 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: The magic of the hexagon Rick Green said: > Nature has many examples of six-sided structures. > Honeybees and other insects make six-sided cells... > The mathematics of six sides is special in nature. Given that bees have brains no bigger than a pinhead, hexagons are a very elegant approach, and an amazing feat of engineering for an insect. But one can do much better, and at a very fundamental level, "nature" does much better all the time, as it will show anyone with some soap and a bottle. Hexagons are NOT "magic", are not "special", and are not even close to the most efficient solution to the problem at hand. What you are working on is the "Kepler Conjecture". It has to do finding the densest packing of various solids, like spheres, cubes, or hexagons. This is often called "sphere packing" as a generic name. Tiles and tiling are really the same exact game, but in 2 dimensions. Check out "Penrose Tiles" and the art of MC Escher for some good examples. A hexagon is not an "answer" to the Kepler Problem. A hexagon is not "special", nor is it "favored" in nature. No one has a perfect proof solving the Kepler Problem yet, but a number of people have gotten close enough to convince everyone that they solved it for a while. Entire lives have been wasted on this problem. Don't try solving it at home. If you put some soap and water into a bottle and shake, you can fill the bottle with a foam of bubbles, and see many of them form 14-sided regular solids all by themselves, as if by magic. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you just did a quick experiment that proves that a hexagon is NOT the most efficient way to utilize space. It is "close", but not very close. Lots of metals are "packed" into this same 14-sided shape. It is called a "tetrakaidecahedra". If any solid has a claim on being "nature's way", then it is this shape, and not the hexagon. But even it is not "perfect" in any way, and it has no claim to any magical properties. Lord Kelvin must have stared long and hard at the head on his beer back in the 1800s, and was the first to notice that this 14-sided shape was a possible solution to the Kepler Problem. In 1993, Weaire and Phelan improved on Kelvin's solution by a whopping 0.3% by using two different shapes in sets of 8 (two dodecahedra, and six weird 14-sided things that I'm not sure even have a name.) But using two different solids is considered "cheating" by some, so we are left with the tetrakaidecahedra. The hexagon is a very good engineering compromise, but there is nothing special about it, and no basic truths about nature or the universe emerge from it. (For those who took advanced math, yes, it is true that in 3-D, face-centered cubic close packing and hexagonal close packing both give the same "n" of 74 point something percent, but bees make hexagonal LATTICES, which are nowhere near as dense as "close-packed hexagons".) So, Plato started us off with his mystical mumbo-jumbo about "perfect spheres", but it turned out that ellipses are the way the universe draws "circles". Likewise, Plato drew hexagons, but tetrakaidecahedra are really the most common and best space-filling shape one can find in nature (if one uses a microscope). There's a fine line between "applied topology" of this sort and mysticism. Plato fell into the trap, and Buckminster Fuller jumped in with both feet, but their rantings were never correct, and we should NOT mislead our kids that Platonic solids are "special". They are just "simple shapes". The universe is messy and complex. We don't really understand very much of it. Bees don't understand it either. But bees CAN make hexagons without a ruler, and most of us can't. Isn't that amazing enough? jim (who is out of a job if the universe runs on magic) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:18:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Re: COMMERCIAL QUEENS & COUMAPHOS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>Although researchers are not finding coumaphos levels high enough for researchers to say for sure nest contamination is a problem early queen supercedure is on the rise in hives of commercial beekeepers using checkmite.<<< Finding residues of Coumaphos in brood combs is confirmed by my research results. Please check p322 in American bee Journal April 2003. We found Fluvalinate in wax samples (n=16) with an average of 2.58 ppm. Coumaphos was found in 83% of honey samples with a range >3-8 ppm. High levels of coumaphos (Average= 45.53 ppm, n= 8) were found in wax samples from colonies where failing queens were found and subleathal toxicity to bees were observed. Wax samples (n=8) collected from good active colonies had an average of 23.66 ppm coumaphos. These results show that coumaphos accumulated residues in the wax faster than fluvalinate. High levels of accumulated coumaphos residues in wax in brood chambers could be implicated in reported queen failure in bee colonies. In Europe, where beekeepers use Perzin which contains Coumaphos as active ingredient for varroa control, levels of accumulation of coumaphos residues in the wax are much lower than using CheckMite strips. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Pest Risk Management Unit Crop Diversification Centre North RR 6, 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5B 4K3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca --- This post was edited by moderators to remove the previous quoted article See guidelines at -- www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:30:50 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: COMMERCIAL QUEENS & COUMAPHOS Medhat Nasr said: > High levels of coumaphos (Average= 45.53 ppm, n= 8) were found > in wax samples from colonies where failing queens were found > and subleathal toxicity to bees were observed. Wax samples (n=8) > collected from good active colonies had an average of 23.66 ppm > coumaphos. I saw your abstract, and had a few questions about it. Can you confirm that all the colonies from which the samples were taken were treated strictly per instructions? I ask because any talk of unusual levels of contamination are often met with the claim that such levels must have been the result of "misuse" or "unapproved formulations". (Great marketing strategy, eh? Blame your customers.) > Coumaphos was found in 83% of honey samples with a range >3-8 ppm. When you say "honey samples", do you mean jars of final product, or specific samples of honey taken from brood comb areas? In 2000, the US EPA set a tolerance for coumaphos in honey at 0.1 ppm (one tenth part per million, aka "100 parts per billion"). http://www.honey.com/pressrm/research/coumaphos.html If the "samples" were harvested honey, does this mean that over half of coumaphos users can expect to harvest honey that is from 30 to 80 times the US "legal limit"? (Say it ain't so, please!) Even if the "samples" were taken from the brood area, what are the odds that the same few drops of honey could be moved to the supers, harvested, and end up being "sampled" during a honey test? (OK, it is a bit of a long shot, but who wants to bet their entire crop on it?) The US EPA tolerance for coumaphos in wax is a whopping 100 ppm. (See the same link, above) a) If 45 ppm in wax is associated with queen failures b) and 23 ppm does not seem to have overt short-term effects One starts plotting curves in one's head of how long before foundation made from recycled wax becomes universally toxic to bees. I don't use coumaphos, but from your numbers, I must conclude that I may soon be unknowingly exposing my bees to coumaphos simply by buying foundation. One hopes that the makers of foundation will "wake up" to this problem, and start testing wax before they use it to make foundation, but this will eliminate the "trade your wax for foundation" game, as smaller lots of wax are not "worth" the expense of such testing. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::