From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:19:20 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.8 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F5448F90 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdE011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0310C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 141374 Lines: 3227 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:57:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dr Seeley's comments on Bee Dance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & all > In essence it is a "chip" attached to the subject which acts like > a transponder. Seems a lot like the transponders used by aircraft > to id their positions on radar. Nothing new as far as the concept, > but a lot smaller. The diodes concerned with insect tracking are made using the same technology as microchip manufacture, but they are not 'squark' boxes, just simple passive components. Their use in conjunction with the design of the aerial (antenna) involved causes a reflection of an impinging carrier wave at twice the original frequency. There is no facility for tagging with numbers or any processing of signals or data. Having said that... It is quite feasible to create an intelligent chip based transponder that could be incorporated in a disc very similar in size to a numbered queen marking disc. This requires a factor of 10 or more increase in frequency of the radar signal and a considerable increase in sensitivity of the radar receiver. Not quite current technology, but not 'too far' into the future! Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:25:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Rain and pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ronald Bogansky wrote, "Way to much rain. My thought is if they could not get out to pollinate they were not flying or bringing in stores." Bees usually visit the flowers for the nectar. Pollination is a side benefit. If there is too much rain, this rain may have washed out the nectar in the flower's nectaries and therefore there would be little to no attraction to bees to visit the flowers for pollination. Thus you would have poor pollination results. The poor crop was due not to lack of pollinating insects but rather the washed out effects of the rain. Mike 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:08:32 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee language Adrian said: > Seeley's response to Mia (as she posted it) was loaded with > qualifications (including, "Evidently, a dance follower learns only > the general vicinity of the recruitment target, she flies to this > location, and then often has to execute a lengthy search to pinpoint > the recruitment target."), a statement that contrasts sharply with his > own statement in the book The statement you mention was made in reference to the specific case of a single feeder dish, as opposed to an area of nectar plants. As such, it was an astute observation that bees' foraging practices are clearly not optimized for feeder dishes. More "realistic" tests would be those that allow the bees to forage on actual nectar-producing plants, spread over an area. This is why we went off on the minor tangent of "harmonic radar". The folks using the harmonic radar have some very interesting data. They intend to do further tests, but their results so far seem to support the stance that bees do leave the hive and follow the vectors (dare I say "bee lines"?) described by dances, arriving in the area indicated by the dancer. As the researchers say on their website (URL in my Bee-L posting of 10/14/03): "Von Frisch published the now famous 'waggle dance' which he claimed bees could use communicate the position of suitable forage areas... We have used harmonic radar to measure the flight trajectories of bees recruited after observing the waggle dance, this has enabled us to settle (hopefully once and for all) this... in favour of Von Frisch. We are also examining our flight data to see what effect the wind has on flight behaviour, paying particular attention to the role odour plumes have in the recruitment of bees to new forage sites." > Which is it? Do bees "fly directly out" as given in the original > hypothesis, Yes, and the harmonic radar studies are yet another set of data that fail to reveal any sort of "searching", zigzagging, downwind approaches, or what have you. > or do they search about for a long time, Only when trying to locate a single feeder dish, not surprising given than a feeder dish is only a few inches in diameter, and bees are more accustomed to foraging with larger "target" areas like fields of clover, orchards, long runs of wild roses along fence lines, weedy patches, etc. > The bottom line remains, though: Beekeepers have not benefited one > bit in regard to their beekeeping operations by using the dance > language hypothesis during the past half century of its existence. > That fact carries more weight than virtually any of the rhetoric we > have had on the subject these past few years. If "dance" is useless to beekeepers, then so would be "odor", for exactly the same reasons. You continue to work in the area because it interests you! Good for you! Please continue. Expect others to also continue. jim (purveyor of subtle schadenfreude to the trade since about 1973) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:50:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Buying Russian Queens and Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got an email today, asking about US sources of Russian queens and packages for this coming season. The writer is in the USA, getting back into bees, and has not seen advertising for Russians in the short time he has been looking. Has anyone in the US found a supplier of either Russian queens and/or Russian packages that (s)he would care to recommend? Or -- without running down any suppliers by name -- any practices to watch out for? With most strains of queens, a purebred queen can often simply shipped with a package of non-purebred bees, since, usually the new queen is well accepted after riding with the bees, and within a few weeks, the newly installed hive will assume the characteristics of the queen. However it occurs to me that, perhaps, this practice might not work well with Russians, since I've heard reports about Russian queens being harder to introduce into non-Russian stock. Has anyone direct experience in these matters, and care to comment? Mentioning the above practice of shipping a queen with non-related bees, makes me think. Does anyone on the list specify, when ordering, for example, a carniolan queen, that the bees in the package must also be carniolan? Does it matter? How much? (In Canada these days, due to the difficulty and uncertainty of getting packages (or even queens) because of restrictions on bee imports, we don't get to specify anything. We just order what we can, from limited genetics, pray that the packages we order will actually arrive, (and arrive alive), and then accept anything we get. Hopefully that will change soon). allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:48:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages In-Reply-To: <003601c393ba$33ad6e70$19b85ad1@Pegasus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Has anyone in the US found a supplier of either Russian queens and/or >Russian packages that (s)he would care to recommend? Or -- without running >down any suppliers by name -- any practices to watch out for? > >allen Kirk Webster has Russian crosses. As with most who initially tried Russians, he found they superceded often, and really weren't very good bees. But, he has been breeding from the survivors, and is now having pretty good luck. The mite load is small, and his breeders haven't been treated in several years. I'm in touch with him quite often. He has told me that he has seen colonies recovering from varroa without chemicals. I was impressed with how strong his colonies were...packed with bees. He still has to treat some honey production yards, but he seems to be headed in the right direction. For someone looking for Russian stock, I would recommend queens from him...order by January. He has already done much of the selection needed to get these Russians to be suitable bees for our area. I buy his honey each year, and after a disaster a few years ago, when he lost most of his bees and made a miserable crop, his honey crop is on the rebound. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:50:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ken Parker Subject: A Good Read Hello everyone, I am a first year beekeeper and have only posted to this list a couple of times but have been humored, humbled and inspired by the goings on here. I am currently reading yet another book about bees but am enjoying it so much I thought I'd post the title and implore those of you who haven't read it to pick it up. It's called The Queen Must Die and other Affairs of Bees and Men by Wm Longgood. I've been consuming practically everything I can get my hands on about beekeeping for the past few years and this one is by far the most interesting, well-written, thought-provoking, philosophical book about bees and mankind's relationship to them that I've found. Its not a quick read but one to be savored. I only wish I could get all my family and friends to read this book so that they might better understand why I MUST keep bees. (Can't you hear the beginner's enthusiasm in this msg!) What an amazing (dare I say "smart") creature this little honeybee really is. Check it out if you haven't already. What is your all-time favorite bee book? Regards, Ken Parker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:48:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beefolks: Mike, in passing, comments that “Kirk Webster has Russian crosses. As with most who initially tried Russians, he found they superceded often, and really weren't very good bees. . . . The mite load is small, and his breeders haven't been treated in several years. I'm in touch with him quite often. He has told me that he has seen colonies recovering from varroa without chemicals.” The very fact that they supercede often, in and of itself, could be the Russian bees’ long-learned strategy in combating the VD, creating gaps in brood-rearing cycle, somewhat analogous to rebooting our computer when we find “bugs” in the system for a clean slate. In fact, we, on this list, have already noted how the Russians kept a ubiquitous supercedure cell throughout the season albeit not for swarm-purposes. This sort of “natural” response, initiated by the bees themselves, is far superior, in my view, to any genetically modified bees, especially since when we impose/create “order” on nature, the act does not always result in positive outcomes in all directions, let alone the self-contradiction that many of us dislike GM plants while embracing GM honey bees. Yoon, Almost sold out this year’s crop! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:11:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: A Good Read MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ken & All, > What is your all-time favorite bee book? > "Better Queens" by Jay Smith. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:44:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis Subject: Re: A Good Read MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Keith, > "Better Queens" by Jay Smith. Is that book a later copy of Jay Smith's book Queenrearing Symplified? Or an altogether different book? Thanks. Clay Clay's Bee Page- http://wave.prohosting.com/clay2720/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 02:33:53 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed hello all, i purchased some russian queens on ebay this past late summer from barnett apiaries and i can easily recommend the queens, the quality, and the price. the email is "JEFFREY BARNETT" all of the 5 were accepted and built up nicely. we shall see how they winter but they look good. david _________________________________________________________________ Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account has exceeded its 2MB storage limit? Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:25:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: A Good Read MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ken: You asked for an all-time favorite bee book. My favorite all time bee-book read is also ‘The Queen Must Die’. Longood freely admits in the preface to anthropomorphism. Well, so what..... Back in July John Sturman asked for a list of beekeeper’s top ten books that new beekeeper's might want. Unfortunately it seemed to me to have ended up as an argument over which were better books--old books or new books. Eva Crane’s book ‘Bees and Beekeeping Science, Practice and World Resources’ in my opinion ranks right at the top of a list of beekeeping books to have. A most excellent book. Unfortunately it went out of print a few years back, but copies are still obtainable from used booksellers. ‘The Hive and the Honey Bee’ is sometimes referred to as the beekeeper’s bible. All kinds of beekeeping information. It’s index could be improved a bit, but still a book to have for your library. Mark Winston’s ‘The Biology of the Honey Bee’ is very readable and informative Dewey Caron’s book ‘Honey Bee Biology and Beekeeping’ is another book I have and like. Diana Sammataro’s ‘The Beekeeper’s Handbook’ is considered by many to be one of the best beginner beekeeping manuals. A good reference book to have on Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases is a book by the same title edited by Roger A. Morse and Kim Flottum ‘Value Added Products from Bee Keeping’ has lots of useful information and is the U.N. FAO Agricultulral Services Bulletin No. 124. It can be read and/or copied from here: http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e00.htm Finally, although I don’t own a copy of ‘Beekeeping for Dummies’ by Howland Blackiston, I checked out our library’s copy a few months back. Some people are put off by the title, but it seemed to me to be another decent beginning beekeeper manual. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:54:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen asks: Has anyone direct experience in these matters, and care to comment? The Russian bee is difficult to introduce. The bees which were shipped with my queen order did not want to feed the queens in the cages. The bees in the hives did not want to feed the queens either while caged. I suspect the Russian queens have got different pheromones. Both of the above problems could easily be over looked by many beekeepers and result in failure. My Russian queens came in a battery pack (large box with queens caged without attendants and bees shook on top of the cages) and perhaps the bees shook in the box were not pure Russian. I doubt a hobby beekeeper buying a Russian queen with attendants in the cage would not get Russian attendants as the attendants are pulled usually the same time and from the same nuc as the queen is caged from. When I realized the bees in my battery box were not feeding my queens I went to a hive and replaced all the bees in the battery box with young nurse bees. Did not solve the problem. The nurse bees I added were not Russian. I hand fed each queen until installed by putting honey and water on the cage screen daily. I have a hard time telling the Russian worker from a carniolan worker but the Russian queens look very different than carniolan queens. I have only had the Russian queens since April so really need to wait a couple years to evaluate before commenting. About the only problem I have seen so far I do not like is the Russians use propolis more than I like. We were in a severe drought this year and had about half a normal honey crop so hard to evaluate honey production on the Russians. * About testing I had planned on doing this fall on sucrose octanoate & Apilife Var and had talked about on BEE-L:* My testing of sucrose octanoate and Apilife Var was not done correctly timing wise for me to evaluate like a researcher would so all I can say is I used both and they seemed to control varroa. The exact percentages of control will not be available. I do plan to try again to conduct accurate testing next spring. I wrote my friends at Dadant and explained why I was unable to evaluate their product correctly. Timing is important and when timing gets out of line many times the treatment will still work but the results in my opinion are flawed. I did come up with a different method of using the sucrose octanoate than removing every frame and spraying but with out proper testing and proper timing I can not say the alternate method is the way to go . I had hoped to be able to say for sure but sadly I can not so those trying the sucrose octanoate from Dadant next spring need to remove every frame until I can verify my idea works through testing. Another beekeeper is using the method but not sure if he is testing both methods or simply using the new way. I will see the beekeeper at our state meeting next week and maybe find out. About all I can say about Apilife Var (thymol registered under section 18 in Missouri on Aug. 28th.) is that the product crumbles easily. Stinks and burns the eyes if kept in the cab of the truck. Strong hives removed the product by the time of the next treatment and weaker hives tried to propolis around the product. Never did the product run the bees from the hive. Twice pices of the thymol tablet ended up in a gallon feeder of syrup. I found the piece when I refilled the feeder as the tablet floated to the top. The bees seemed unaffected. At this point about all I can do to tell if the above products worked is to put in a 98% control strip in for 24 hours with a sticky board and count the dead varroa. I have still got around nine days to go before I can do final testing on several yards. I will know in my own mind if they worked but will have to guess as to percent of control which is not what I had intended on doing. I had planned on giving the list valid testing as done by bee labs. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:57:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Yoon said.... > The very fact that they supercede often, in and of itself, could be the > Russian bees' long-learned strategy in combating the VD, creating gaps in > brood-rearing cycle, If you observe more closely, you will find that there is no gap and the brood rearing rate actually increases as the newly mated queen lays in conjunction with the older one for a period varying from a few days to several years. Supercedure is often denigrated in US circles and not seen often enough for people to understand it. The 'Russian' stocks exhibit supercedure in a marked degree as indeed do any strains that survive under conditions that only allow drone congregation area matings every five years or so. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:37:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Fwd: THE RED TIDE... OF HONEY! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > >A FOOD CHAIN RELEASE FROM METROFARM.COM > > > >Imagine sitting back on the veranda of your favorite resort hotel to >enjoy a cup of tea and a sunset. But before you open that little >packet of honey to sweeten things up, you might want to consider who >produced that honey, and what they put inside of it! > > > >This Saturday at 9AM Pacific, the Food Chain with Michael Olson >hosts Gene Brandi, Chairman of the National Honey Board, for a >conversation about the tide of Chinese honey flooding into the >United States. > > > >(Listen here: >http://www.metrofarm.com/index.asp?cat=40088) > > > >Topics will include how China is able to produce so much honey for >so little cost; how that honey is smuggled into the United States >containing a toxic antibiotic; and what impact, if any, Chinese >honey has on American honey producers. > > > >Listeners are invited to call the program on KFRM, KGET, KGOE, KMPH, >KNTK, KOMY, KSCO or TRUTH RADIO with questions and comments at >800-624-2665, or log them to the discussion page at >www.metrofarm.com. > > > >Unsubscribe: >postmaster@metrofarm.com / subject: >unsubscribe (include email address) > > > >NOTE: The Food Chain is now available to commercial radio stations >throughout the United States. Please help with the dissemination of >the program by copying the hotlink below and emailing it to the >Program Director of your favorite newstalk radio station. Tell her >or him how much you would like to hear the Food Chain in your area! >http://www.metrofarm.com/index.asp?cat=43020 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:12:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At this point about all I can do to tell if the above products worked > is to put in a 98% control strip in for 24 hours with a sticky board > and count the dead varroa. I'm wondering, why is that? ...and also, how can you *know* that you get 98% kill by using any chemical, without either doing follow-up alcohol washes before and after, or without doing natural drops after? Alcohol wash is the most definitive test, but can be time-consuming, and should be accompanied by counts of varroa in brood if total accuracy is sought. The latter step is usually unnceessary if only a good 'feeling' for the efficacy of the preceeding treatment is desired. Although there is an unknown in natural drops, due, among other things, to variability in average varroa longevity depending on season and circumstances -- possibly less predictable after the varroa has been stressed by a treatment -- the natural drop is IMO, the simplest, quickest and most non-destructive test. It gives a quick reading on the order of magnitude of the remaining infestation, and has been very useful to us. After using alcohol, sugar shakes, and 24 hr Apistan drops over the past dew years, we have settled on the natural drop over a few days as being the simplest, most foolproof, and generally the best all-round bellwether test for us. It seems to me that reliance on any chemical for near 100% kill in today's world, particularly in a migratory environment could lead to a nasty surprise, so I'm wondering what you are thinking. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Still chewing on the border... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:32:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Russian packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Does anyone of you know if you can buy pure russian packages anywhere? preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:37:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I have a question for you oldies on this list. I am making honey vinegar. It working in the crock now. Do I have to heat it up in the final stage to kill botulism and how do I know it is ok to drink without harm when it is done. Anyone who can help , please advice. preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:53:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Varroa testing (was Buying Russian Queens and Packages) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen asks: I'm wondering, why is that? ...and also, how can you *know* that you get 98% kill by using any chemical, without either doing follow-up alcohol washes before and after, or without doing natural drops after? Good question! I have been testing the strip for resistance by the bees tested and have seen no resistance yet by both alcohol washes and natural mite fall. in fact many hives in our group were treated this fall with the strip but not the hives used in sucrose O. & Apilife Var testing. We know the strip will drop a bunch of varroa if either of the tested treatments did not provide a over 50% control. The method I am using to test these hives is commonly used by researchers when a new product is tested. One of the reasons I turned down an offer to test a new product for varroa control being researched at the Tucson Bee lab by Diana Sammataro (as I wrote about on BEE-L) was I was afraid due to other projects I would not be able to devote the time to get the figures correct *like a researcher* would and I was right. Although I enjoy doing research I am a fulltime beekeeper and testing comes at my busy time of the year! Testing for the Tucson project was by natural fall/sticky boards and at certain times and all boards returned to Tucson for analysis. *Chemical strips* were provided by the lab to be used to see if the treatment worked and provide control in case the new product failed to control varroa after testing was done. I believe both Jerry Hayes (Dadant) and Diana Summataro (Tucson Bee lab) appreciate the fact that if I felt the results of my testing were not accurate I would say so and repeat the test from scratch. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. still no resistance to Checkmite in Missouri bees. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:17:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Poly Nuc Box for Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bee Friends: While on Fall Break, I have been busy removing feral bees from local schools, a job I had to oblige since as the temp drops, occasional stragglers and scouts find themselves in unwanted areas, such as inside the residence or inside the gymnasium, creating possible stinging incidents. The day time temp, around in my neck of woods, still holds at 70 F although the essence of fall feels sharp at dawn and dusk; consequently, I need to assist the bees as they must battle against time. I gave them drawn combs and heavy syrup; however, I remember reading about this Styrofoam nuc box [“Reinforced Polystyrene Five Frame Nuc Box”], as advertised by B. B., which contains a button hole, through which one can squirt syrup, “up to two liters,” throughout the winter. They are pricy at about $30.00, minus shipping. At this point I do not want to piggy- back or combine, for, if I must, I can give them Maxant Top Feeder [another poly], which holds about three gallons—-with excellent insulation at top. Oklahoma winter is not that severe, though cold at times. This nuc box sounds like a good idea, but have never tried. The ad alleges a Canadian beekeeper winters his 2,200 nucs this way successfully to headstart come next spring. If the claim holds water, one can, it surely sounds like, start a nuc any time of the year. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:54:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: vinegar In-Reply-To: <002901c394ab$63e0c820$4c21dad0@34un9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 17 Oct 2003 at 7:37, preacher wrote: > am making honey vinegar. It working in the crock now. > Do I have to heat it up in the final stage to kill botulism and how do I > know it is ok to drink without harm when it is done. Botulism is too dangerous for me to comment on. This is an inherently dangerous product. You might get by 999 times of 1000, but that 1000th time will get you. I was considering commercially producing honey vinegar, but dropped the idea after a course in food safety , offered through our state specialty food producers association, privided by Clemson University. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I became convinced that it was not a good idea for me. I would contact the Food Science Department of your state Extension University and get authoritative answers. Clemson University has a good one, if your state doesn't. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages Bob said: >> At this point about all I can do to tell if the above products worked >> is to put in a 98% control strip in for 24 hours with a sticky board >> and count the dead varroa. And Allen said: > ...how can you *know* that you get 98% kill by using any chemical, > without either doing follow-up alcohol washes before and after, or > without doing natural drops after? I think that Bob's approach is a sound one, in that the 24-hour drop test with Apistan has become the "gold standard" test used in studies, state apiarists, and extension folks, and has the largest base of published data behind it. The point is that the 24-hour drop test is a consistent test. Of course, a 24-hour "natural drop" is also a consistent test, but Bob is correct in concluding that doing one so soon after any sort of treatment could skew the numbers. I dunno how long after treatment a 24-hour "natural drop" would be valid, but I'd guess a week would be enough of a wait. ...and yeah, all this assumes that you do not have resistant varroa. That's a whole 'nother level of complexity. As an aside, the recent thread about a "Golden Age Of Beekeeping" prompts me to muse thusly: 1) The average beekeeper knows more now than ever before. Yes, much of the education has been prompted by invasive exotic pests and diseases, but the spin-off has been that "leave alone beekeeping" is no longer possible, so being educated is now a mission-critical survival tactic. 2) As such, we have developed a much more aggressive attitude, almost a siege mentality about keeping our bugs alive. No such motivation existed before. More educated and motivated people implies more progress as a result. 3) We also have all the internet sites and mailing lists, so a certain fraction of beekeepers can communicate at whim, with more joining in the discussions (arguments? riots?) every day. We also have better access to the official information and published science. Most of us live in countries where inter-library loan is 100% free, or can be had for no more than the cost of the postage, so I am not just talking about the internet here. 4) We also have much higher-quality work being done by those who do the studies and research. Part of this is technology, and part of this is the enhanced rigor of the hard sciences having an impact on the minimum rigor expected of those who publish in bee-related areas. 5) We have better tools, stainless steel is now the default material for honey handling, and toys like digital cameras, scanners, and video recorders allow us to simply "press send" to share the more unusual puzzlements with others. No one attempts to haul hives with horses any more, and this alone saves an uncounted number of hives from destruction. 6) We even have (gasp!) STANDARDS, one of them being the 24-hour drop test. When you agree on standards, progress accelerates. Maybe someday, we can even get an actual standard for the implementation of bee space among the various makers of woodenware. :) So at risk of sounding Panglossian, THIS is the best of all possible times, and to quote Carly Simon, "THESE are the good old days". The mere fact that we can all get real-time first-hand field reports from someone testing a new product should be clear proof. jim (A member of the Council For A Better Day After Tomorrow) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:08:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Buying Russian Queens and Packages > Allen asks: > Has anyone direct experience in these matters, and care to comment? > > The Russian bee is difficult to introduce. >> I suspect the Russian queens have got different pheromones. Hello Bob and All The introduction problem should have been solved by the breeders by now. The white line of Russians had the problem. The breeders should be using the blue line and up. I know that you will get some good and bad stock. All breeders are not equal.The queens will have a variance . So will the offspring. You will find a level of resistance to Varroa in the Russian stock. Some are better than others. It takes some guts and foresight not to treat when you see a couple of varroa in a hive. I wanted to kill all of them. That won't happen. If you want queen cells, the Russians can put them out. I counted 27 cells on one frame. We need to push the breeders for better queens. Let the market place work , it will clear out the bad ones. Best Regards Roy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:17:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: vinegar In-Reply-To: <002901c394ab$63e0c820$4c21dad0@34un9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit preacher wrote: > Hello, > I have a question for you oldies on this list. > I am making honey vinegar. It working in the crock now. The best way to make any vinegar is not in a crock but in jars/jugs that can be fitted with an air lock, just as if you were going to make wine (carboys and gallon jugs are excellent. They have narrow necks that allow easy insertion of an air lock.) You need fairly sterile conditions to start and a good, known mother to make the vinegar. You will get vinegar with the crock method but no telling what it will taste like or what other organisms are in it. Probably why a lot of "oldies" who made it that way are no longer around. You should use set techniques that are just like making good wine. You can get good vinegar mothers from wine making stores or on the net. Plus all the other equipment (like air locks) and campeden tablets for sterilization that will give an excellent, good tasting, safe product. Once you make your first batch, you will then have your own vinegar mother to work with. > Do I have to heat it up in the final stage to kill botulism Yes- Pressure cooker to be safe since you do not know what you have in the crock. But you do not need to do so with the proper method. If you make vinegar the air lock way and start with the right amount of sugar/honey and add a good mother, you will get strong acid content, which will keep it safe. It needs to be over 5% which is not difficult if you start with the right mix of ingredients. and how do I > know it is ok to drink without harm when it is done. > Anyone who can help , please advice. Since you started it in a crock, you get whatever has gone into it. It may taste terrible as well. As Dave said, the probability is in your favor that you will not keel over even if you do not pressure cook it since it will probably be acidic enough to keep botulism at bay, but then again.... Need a good insurance agent? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:35:17 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim mentions the ......."gold standard" test used in studies, state apiarists, and extension folks, and has the largest base of published data behind it. - this in response to Allen Dick's comment on how do you know that a good kill of varroa is being achieved. As touched upon, the use of the Apistan strip in the 24 hour drop test is fine - as long as there is no resistant or suspicion of resistant varroa being present. If Apistan is taken by the majority as the prime test material (I am not commenting on the tests procedural protocol), then the potential for a big problem is in the waiting. To illustrate: One having treated with Formic acid, which for some reason has not been efficient in dealing with a population of mites in a colony. A test with an Apistan strip is used as a follow up. Few V.d. fall! What is the usual conclusion drawn? I suggest it is .... That the formic treatment was efficient. The average beekeeper and most of the others in an area will leave it at that. Crunch - spring survival rates are catastrophic, and everybody starts asking why! Then resistant V.d. is recognised as being in the area. Too Late!!!! If using the Apistan strip in a 24 hour drop test - the efficiency of fluvalinate must be established first. If that is established as being ok, then carry on. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:28:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: If using the Apistan strip in a 24 hour drop test - the efficiency of fluvalinate must be established first. Apistan was what the Tucson Bee lab sends as a follow up. As I told the bee lab Apistan has not worked since the fall of 97 in my apiaries. I do plan on testing Apistan again in the spring to see if over six years Apistan will control varroa again. Checkmite is the chemical strip I will be installing for 24 hours. I would have had to do the same for the Tucson study as I have not found any coumaphos resistant mites so far in our bees or the bees my partner acquired this year from Iowa and Texas. I looked at bees from mine and two other beekeepers bees which wintered in California and found no coumaphos resistant varroa. The last time I installed a Checkmite in a varroa infested hive for twenty four hours I got around 3000 varroa on the sticky board. The beekeeper had just completed the 50+ day time period treating with Apistan. Natural fall can tell you many things but the chemical strip for 24 hours will give you a better (in my opinion) idea of how well the treatment worked. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:47:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: A Good Read MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Clay & All, > Is that book a later copy of Jay Smith's book Queenrearing Symplified? Or > an altogether different book? Thanks. > No, it's a rare, some what hard to find 1949, copy of a book Jay Smith wrote in the first person about what he concluded was a superior method of rearing "Better Queens". A copy in good condition will likely cost a person $90.00. Even though I do not use his method of rearing queens I do use his principals. This method he used did not utilize grafting but was the method he finally used later in his life. The principals he describes are principals all beekeepers can easily use in the field even hobbyist, without the use of specialized gear. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:20:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TxBeeFarmer Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The toxins of botulism are neutralized at a relative low temp.. If memory serves, it's 140 F. You should look that one up, obviously. The literature is filled with cases of mothers who died from botulism poisoning, but the family had no sign of poisoning. The mother would taste the food to see if it was bad and, if it passed the taste test, she'd cook it for the family - canned green beans being the most common. The cooking temp. neutralized the toxin. Having said that, I've never heard of botulism being a problem in vinegar making. (West Texas) Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:41:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Old timers used to make copious quantities of home-made vinegar, usually from apple cider (probably made from the stuff they couldn't drink fast enough before spoilage :-) ). As such, I would suspect that it's not that inherently dangerous. Same holds true for sauerkraut, although if you've ever made it yourself, you wonder how the hell anyone had the courage to eat it the first time. I'm sure there are simple, observable, detectable criteria that indicate safe vinegar, as opposed to the bad stuff (research?). Off colors, odors, or flavors are usually a good indicator that something is amiss. As to botulism, I was under the impression that it is primarily an anaerobic critter, not prone to showing up in open fermented fluids (like wine, beer, vinegar, etc.) but rather canned goods not properly prepared. Don't know about vinegar from specifically from honey, but it seems that it should work. Worst case, feed it the dog first. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:58:13 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: A Good Read MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I notice all the books quoted so far are what I would call text books. This will probably only be available in Australia but a book written back in the 1950's (as I recall) called "Following the flow" by Kylie Tennant. The author spent time with some migratory beekeepers in northern New South Wales and Queensland and tells their story. It gives an insight into how beekeeping was carried out then. Although the actual names of the beekeepers are not used in the book, older beekepers tell me you can put real names to the charcaters in the book if you know these beekeepers. Something to consider for a good light read. Ttrevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:03:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried some Russian hybrids this year (and 2 highly bred Russians last year ), and noticed they were highly inclined to supercede, no matter what. Problem was, all of my Russian hybrid queens this year (4) gave up the ghost, and no new, viable queens took their place. All seemed to occur at the end of the season. Worse, I could not successfully requeen ($54 flushed down the terlet). End result: 4 queenless hives in fall, higher than normal harvest for those hives :). This may not be normal, but it was my (frustrating) experience this year. Also, they seem highly prone to propolize the hell out of everything around them. I have one hive that became so glued together I wound up pulling a frame apart trying to pry it out of a deep. Copious quantities of very gooey, stickey propolis. Very annoying. Caveat here: I have not tried Russians in any real numbers, and only two years back to back. I'll probably try them again next year and see what happens. Also, we had very nasty weather patterns first half of the summer - lots of rain. Lastly, the original queens this year were in nucs, so I have no way of knowing their age when installed. So far, I am not impressed with Russians as opposed to Carniolans. Assuming one can keep mites at bay (probably fall/spring treatments), my (fairly short) experience tells me to stick with Carnies. Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:32:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: The US Package Bee Industry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that Canadians are hoping to re-establish bee imports from the continental USA in the near future, some of us are wondering how things are going down there in the past few years. We're out of touch. We've heard stories about queen and package shortages and also some tales about poor quality. What is the truth? Are people running strictly package bee businesses and depopulating hives in the Fall, or is everyone wintering? How bad are the queen shortages in spring? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Meditations on the 49th :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:47:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: A Good Read MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Trevor wrote about, "Following the flow" by Kylie Tennant ... Although the actual names of the beekeepers are not used in the book .... Sounds very much like "Following the Bloom" by Douglas Whynott (known to lurk on BEE-L at times) which DOES name the beekeepers. I was thrilled to meet in real life the guys I read about on the book! Highly recommended! Aaron Morris - thinking Andy Card, White House Chief of Staff? Few will get that one. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:59:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Poly Nuc Box for Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, these nucs are actually made here in Quebec under licence from the "beekeeper who winters 3,000 nucs this way". His claim holds water and the box holds the syrup! His experience holds good for him living in northern Alberta and wintering in British Columbia. Here in Quebec they do not winter too well outside ( a lot colder than B.C.) but very well inside. It's "rapido presto" to transfer them in the spring! He says he has some boxes which are over 8 years old. These are a high quality product, and the bees don't eat the styrofoam. They will need a screened cover for ALL warm weather moving - or ........ Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "yoonytoons" Sent: October 17, 2003 10:17 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Poly Nuc Box for Wintering however, I remember reading about > this Styrofoam nuc box ["Reinforced Polystyrene Five Frame Nuc Box"], as > advertised by B. B., which contains a button hole, through which one can > squirt syrup, "up to two liters," throughout the winter. They are pricy > at about $30.00, minus shipping. > nuc box sounds like a good idea, but have never tried. The ad alleges a > Canadian beekeeper winters his 2,200 nucs this way successfully to > headstart come next spring. If the claim holds water, one can, it surely > sounds like, start a nuc any time of the year. > > Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:56:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Re: vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok guys. Now you have my interest up. Here is how I am trying to make honey vinegar. The recipe says this. Take 4 1/2 pounds of honey to one gal of distilled water. Boil the water and then add to the honey and dissolve. Add one package of yeast on top of a slice of toast and float for 16 days. Skim and let it work for 4-6 weeks more. Does anyone have a better suggestion? preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 03:34:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: honey and healing In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A1090D1FAA@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just read an article that let me remember a question asked on the list some months ago : > "Can you name a necessary substance (not sugar), > found in honey, but not syrup, that is not also > found in far more massive quantities in pollen?" The question was asked when discussing about honey healing properties This study identified some non-peroxyd inhibits substances in lisozymes, flavonoides and aromatic acides families (and others still not identified). I confess the study does not precise if those susbtances are present or not in pollen. The study also document non peroxyd inhibs concentrations by floral origin. The swiss study : http://www.apis.admin.ch/francais/pdf/Produits/Inhbibin_f.pdf Hervé Logé Le Rucher d'Émélys www.emelys.com Laval, Qc, Canada ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:54:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The US Package Bee Industry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen asks: Now that Canadians are hoping to re-establish bee imports from the continental USA in the near future, some of us are wondering how things are going down there in the past few years. We're out of touch. I doubt you are out of touch as you have attended the AHPA convention in 2002 & the ABF convention in 2003. Tell your Canadian beekeepers to head south and talk face to face with U.S. queen breeders. Allen said: We've heard stories about queen and package shortages and also some tales about poor quality. What is the truth? We can always get queens when we need queens but are on a first name basis with our suppliers. Kind of like looking for a part for the old bee truck. You keep calling until you have called all the parts stores before giving up. You start with the breeders which have given you the best queens and service first. Allen asked: Are people running strictly package bee businesses and depopulating hives in the Fall, or is everyone wintering? Wow ! You really are out of touch! Several big outfits depopulate. Non migratory winter and most but not all migratory winter in California or Texas. Allen asks: How bad are the queen shortages in spring? Depends on when you want queens. Early queens can be a problem especially if you insist on a certain strain of bee. We have never had a problem getting queens but we get queens at times from other beekeepers which supply queens by word of mouth and do not advertise. They raise queens for their own operations and many times have got extra queens to sell. Bob's beekeeping thoughts: The U.S. beekeeping industry is comprised of old beekeeper families. Newcomers are watched closely before accepted into their circles. I imagine the same is true in Canada. Once accepted you can be in a rough situation. Motor blown up in bee truck. Help all quit. Land owners wants bees out of orchard today and all of a sudden you look up and your beekeeper buddies come rolling in to save the day. Also a few *outlaws* in beekeeping but what a tame world beekeeping would be without a few *outlaws*! These guys are wispered about at conventions by beekeepers and discused openly by bee inspectors at inspectors meetings! Make friends at a bee meeting with the closest beekeeper to you. You will not be sorry! The rest of the world looks at the beekeeper like he is playing with a short deck of cards. Other beekeepers understand the amount of work involved in beekeeping and are facing the same problems you do. PHD, doctor, farmer or city dweller beekeeping is the common bond which will make friendships and put the doctor and the common man working side by side going through a hive of bees!. Many hobby beekeepers in the Midwestern Beekeepers assn. work bees with another member of the club. They say beekeeping is very enjoyable when working bees together with a friend. Hmmm. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:24:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: honey and healing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The study might be nice. But is there an english version. I would like to pass it on. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:48:43 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Small hive beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been told that the small hive beetle (SHB) did a fair bit of = damage this year in the USA. If it was the case, was there any = particular reason for this? Things like climate, conditions, mites? We are still to feel the full force of SHB as yet. So far it does not = seem to be a real problem but it is early days yet. Maybe the lull = before the storm? It is in our interest to learn from others who are experiencing = problems. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:56:01 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: honey and healing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you want to see how far the use of honey for medicinal purposes has come in Australia, log onto www.medihoney.com.au and have a look at the work of one company. As you will see it has been devloped for a range of medical purposes and the research is still ongoing. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:34:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages In-Reply-To: <000b01c394f5$8bf08540$50a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Peter said: > >If using the Apistan strip in a 24 hour drop test - the efficiency of > >fluvalinate must be established first. > Apistan was what the Tucson Bee lab sends as a follow up. I was told that the reason Apistan is used, even in "resistant" hives, is it does give good mite drop, albeit they may still be alive. That was demonstrated when it was used in a Apistan/Checkmite resistant hive here in Maine. Checkmite strips were used and no mite drop. Apistan was then used and lots of mites dropped. So you can get good mite drop with Apistan even with Apistan/Checkmite resistant mites. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 04:27:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Re: honey and healing In-Reply-To: <20031018013421.31910.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For an english translation of the Swiss study (http://www.apis.admin.ch/francais/pdf/Produits/Inhbibin_f.pdf) Hervé) Logé referenced go to: http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/pdf/BeeProducts/AntibacterialInternet_e.pdf It lacks the illustrations which can be seen on the French page but covers the rest of the article. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 05:14:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Buying Russian Queens and Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I buy my Russian queens and package bees from George Kidney of Loomis California. The queens are accepted well with the packages bees after hiving. I have had the workers of these queens make the usual supersedure cells but have observed them tearing them down before the queen hatches. I like the idea that the bees are ready with a backup queen if needed. I think that the Russians are a very efficient bee and I am pleased with the way they are. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:20:50 +0200 Reply-To: apimo@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Poly Nuc Box for Wintering In-Reply-To: <001801c39502$4dfceb40$5d94fdcf@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To get a visual clue of what those five nuck boxes are I have two photos on my web. Not high quality photos but they show how they look at in the wintering apiary in B.C http://apimo.dk/canada/canada.htm Click the thumbnails for a better view Best regards Jorn Johanesson Bidata the Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software since 1997 home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:32:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: honey and healing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cara &Tom Patterson wrote: > http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/pdf/BeeProducts/AntibacterialInternet_e.pdf The Hive and the Honey Bee notes that different floral sources have different concentrations of sucrose in nectar. The same occurs with the amount of water available to the same floral sources. More water, less concentrated. The article notes that the antibacterial activity of honey (excluding the supersaturated sugar solution effects) is due to the bee and not necessarily the floral source as far as the peroxide component. But the acid content does make a difference (not the ph). It also noted that there were differences in activity in the same floral source. The hive and the Honey Bee also notes that the addition of enzymes to honey by the bee and the amount of transformation of the honey by the enzymes is directly related to the concentration of sugar in the nectar. The more concentrated, the less time the enzymes have to work on the nectar. The article also notes that just plain sugar water gives the same peroxide component and concentration as floral honey. Given all that, maybe the difference in antibacterial action by different honeys is more the concentration of the nectar than anything else. If the nectar is "thin" then the enzymes added to the nectar by the bee have more time to work and concentrations of antibacterial agents is higher. That results in higher acid content and glucose oxidaise (the peroxide component which is also an acid component). From a purely practical observation, this makes sense, because you would want the most protection during the time the nectar is being concentrated until it, by being a saturated sugar solution, can stand on its own. If the nectar is thin, without the added protection, the nectar could spoil. It is obvious that one function of the added enzymes (there are probably a lot more functions that we do not know about) is to keep the product pure in all parts of its time in the hive. The more we learn about bees the more amazing they are. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:44:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Buying Russian Queens and Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was told that the reason Apistan is used, even in "resistant" hives, > is it does give good mite drop, albeit they may still be alive. > So you can get good mite drop with Apistan even with Apistan/Checkmite > resistant mites. If that is true, it would explain why Apistan treatment in early spring, in double hives with top entrances, in Alberta, with one strip, seems to work so much better than fall treatment.with multiple strips, and why resistance has not been encountered using this method. I understand that, even in the absence of resistance, Apistan tends to drop plenty of live mites. (Is this true? I wouln't know, since the mites I see are drowned quickly in the oil on the sticky board) In Spring, the cluster is in the top box -- the bottom box is clear of bees -- and falling mites tend to drop away from the cluster to the distant floor and -- if still alive -- perish there. When treated in Fall, when bees are on the floor constantly, any mites dropping to the floor, even a mesh one, have a good opportunity to re-attach to a bee. I have been surprised by how much more efficious and cheaper the Spring treatment has proven over the past few years in our operation, when compared to the Fall, multiple strip, method. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:42:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Botulism in honey vinager solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: "Yes- Pressure cooker to be safe since you do not know what you have in the crock." when speaking of getting rid of botulism in a homemade honey vinegar solution. I majored in biology a loooonnng time ago but seem to remember that it wasn't the botulism organisms that was the trouble, it was the waste products of the botulism organism that were so deadly and I don't think that pressure cooking the batch will change the composition of the waste products. It will kill the organism but not change the deadly waste products. Anyone can certainly correct me if I am wrong in this, but wanted to insert a "Be Careful" statement on the comments already made. Mike Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:15:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Re: vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok guys you put enough doubt in my mind so I will throw out the crock. Sure hope you are right. I hate to lose it. Does anyone know where I can buy a wine kit. That ought to work shouldnt it. And my question is , what is the differance between the by products in a sealed container and one which has a cheese cloth over it? preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:36:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Poly Nuc Box for Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > To get a visual clue of what those five nuck boxes are I have two photos on my web. There are more pictures at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/pkgnucs.htm FWIW, I am told that the project shown there did not work out any better than installing package bees into normal 10-frame brood chambers. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:54:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: A whole 'nother level of complexity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The point is that the 24-hour drop test is a consistent test. > ...and yeah, all this assumes that you do not have resistant varroa. > That's a whole 'nother level of complexity. Yes it is. The thing that many forget is that resistance does not always announce its presence in the neighbourhood with the sound of trumpets and clanging of cymbals. It sneaks up and does its dirty work when people assume that their favourite chemical is still working, and when they do not check with a fail-safe test like alcohol or Natural Drop. The only way to be safe from the unexpected is to check constantly to see if the test material still works, or not use a chemical. Natural Drop will never encounter resistance problems. Neither will alcohol. Even if the meaning of the drop counts is not precise, ND never lies. I hate that word: "assume". It comes back to bite us, eventually, every time. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:58:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Mite drop with Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen et al: The dropping of live mites to the empty bottom box might explain the great success obtained here by the unnamed miscreants who put strips in during the fall and leave them until the spring. Best regards > If that is true, it would explain why Apistan treatment in early spring, in > double hives with top entrances, in Alberta, with one strip, seems to work > so much better than fall treatment.with multiple strips, and why resistance > has not been encountered using this method. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.528 / Virus Database: 324 - Release Date: 16/10/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:01:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do I have to heat it up in the final stage to kill botulism and how > do I know it is ok to drink without harm when it is done. A simple search for 'botulism poisoning' on Google or other engine will turn up more info than most would care to read. Near the top of this search: http://www.google.com/search?hl=&cat=&meta=&q=%22botulism+poisoning%22 was a page that contained this paragraph: "Home-canned foods are responsible for over 90% of all cases of foodborne botulism. However, commercial products have also occasionally been implicated. A product with an anaerobic environment allows for the growth of C. botulinum spores and toxin production. The toxins are resistant to digestion by gastric enzymes. " and "C. botulinum spores are highly heat-resistant; commercial and home-canning procedures should be done at the appropriate temperature and pressure to kill these spores. A pressure cooker must be used to can vegetables at home safely because it can reach temperatures above boiling (>212oF or >100oC). Information on safe home-canning procedures is available from local county extension home economists. Botulinum toxin is readily inactivated by heat; nevertheless, the FDA recommends that any food suspected to contain botulinum toxin be destroyed. Proper acidification and refrigeration of commercial products such as herb-infused oils will inhibit spore growth and toxin production". (See http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/3707-3917.html ) allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:21:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: vinegar In-Reply-To: <000701c395ac$437bb480$b322dad0@34un9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit preacher wrote: > Ok guys you put enough doubt in my mind so I will throw out the crock. Sure > hope you are right. I hate to lose it. We are not necessarily right, only prudent. It is probably safe to use since the acid level will be high and that is a key in preventing botulism contamination. Most problems with botulism is in non acid canning and not using pressure cooking when it is not acidic. I make pickles all the time and they are started in an open crock but then they are boiled in vinegar, so it is nice and acidic. And then canned hot and processed in a boiling water bath for 25 min. There are concerns with vinegar (both honey and cider) when not enough sugar is present in the beginning to yield a high acid product. If it is below 5% there might be problems. It is equivalent to the amount of sugar/honey you have in starting wine or mead and looking for a specific sweetness and alcohol level. > Does anyone know where I can buy a wine kit. That ought to work shouldn't it. > And my question is , what is the difference between the by products in a > sealed container and one which has a cheese cloth over it? Cheese cloth is also used as an "air lock" but is not as good as the ones sold specifically for that purpose, which are usually water type locks. Things can still get into the wine/vinegar/beer/cola you are producing and can spoil it or give results that are not what you want. Most home made ciders and vinegars are dependent on the local yeasts and bacteria, so you may end up with the most wonderful tasting vinegar ever or the foulest. (I like to gather yeasts from where my kids live to make sourdough bread so it is a reminder of them. The best I have found to date was from LA! Make all my bread from it. My local yeasts are so-so.) Stores that sell brewing supplies have everything you need. There are plenty of places on line where you can purchase them but a store owner will also give advice. Years ago I occasionally made vinegar.... but my intention was wine, until I learned that you really have to keep all the stray bugs in the air away from the fermenting brew and do have to use sterilized vessels. Otherwise you do not know what the final product will be like. I have also made cider vinegar on purpose, but did not like my home made as much as good old Heinz. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:30:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Re: Botulism in honey vinager solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Yes it is true, it is the toxin produced by the Botchulinum organisms that is deadly, however, if not mistaken, heat neutralizes the toxin. Also, the organisms cannot survive in high acid environments. That is why home canned tomatoes are not subject to botulism bacterial growth but home canned green beans, and the like are. I don't think you have to worry about your vinegar. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 03:58:08 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: honey and healing - mistaken link In-Reply-To: <3F914105.9020304@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >For an english translation of the Swiss study >http://www.apis.admin.ch/francais/pdf/Produits/Inhbibi>n_f.pdf) >Hervé) Logé referenced go to: > >http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/pdf/BeeProducts/Antib>acterialInternet_e.pdf > >It lacks the illustrations which can be seen on the >French page but >covers the rest of the article. It is a mistaken assertion. I am afraid these references are for two different studies. The English link refers to a 1997 study, the French link to a 2001 study. Authors are also different and texts are completely different. The 2001 study (in French) would probably change Bill's last comments since it focuses on non peroxid inhibits. The 2001 study is far more to date. Hervé Qc - Canada ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:57:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Comb honey I've started to put together a pictoral guide for making comb sections on a small scale using cappings. I thought I'd devote some effort to this tutoral for small beekeepers as a "thank you" for all I've learned on BEE- L. This method is easy, and I've done it several times in all different weather conditions, so I think with regional modifications a beekeeper almost anywhere could get 40 or so sections of comb in a month or two using this method. I use the Hogg's sections as they are somewhat faster to install than others, but I think one could make more profit by using Ross Rounds. And this method would also work with Ross Rounds. Here are just my preliminary pictures, but I would ask for any constructive comments. The link is to my daughter holding the final product, just click on the "comb honey" section of the gallery to see the others. http://www.pbase.com/image/22425534 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:28:14 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Giuseppe Subject: the Small Hive Beetle news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello to all here reassuming on all that that is known on the bettle http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-050.pdf it compliments the Australians giuseppe caboni gcaboni@tiscali.it :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:49:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Botulism in honey vinager solution In-Reply-To: <000c01c395c7$7fbf9b80$096cead8@cedavidson> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 18 Oct 2003 at 18:30, beekeeper wrote: > Yes it is true, it is the toxin produced by the Botchulinum organisms > that > is deadly, however, if not mistaken, heat neutralizes the toxin. Also, > the > organisms cannot survive in high acid environments. That is why home > canned > tomatoes are not subject to botulism bacterial growth but home canned > green > beans, and the like are. I don't think you have to worry about your > vinegar. The problem is that it is not acid at the beginning. The acidity develps. An acid environment, oxygen, high enough sugar content all will stop botulin from developing. But at the beginnings of the process, the acid level is low, the sugar is diluted, and the atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide. As it becomes more acid, botulin would be stopped, but by then the toxin may already be present. Yes heat will break down the toxin, but meanwhile, if contaminated, until after it is heated, it is an extremely dangerous product. Dave Green, SC USA Garden Bees: http://gardenbees.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:07:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Bears My, they really do make a mess of things, don't they? When the landowner called Sunday morning I went right out, but all six hives were eaten up, larva, honey, pollen, grease patties, and three of the checkmite strips. I hope it gets sick. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:28:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: digitization of rare historical beekeeping volumes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We may finally be able to view these books on line. Some I have never seen and I spend some time at Mann Library looking. I have only just gained entrance to"The Vault". It is not surprising, I guess, that the very act of preserving these rare volumes for beekeepers has prevented beekeepers from seeing them. This project may finally change that. If you are interested in donating to this project see; > http://easternapiculture.org/programs/phillips.pdf < Here is a brief update of progress of this project (10/20/03)! Including the Eastern Apiculture Society $1000 matching gift, combined with the $1,625 already contributed by individual Beekeepers, this brings the amount we've received for the Beekeeping Online Initiative thus far to a total of $2,625. This contribution will allow Mann to make important rare historical beekeeping volumes available to a wide public audience via the World Wide Web. Ten books have received top ranking by our contributing reviewers and have been carefully prepared for digitization. See list below! These are ready to be shipped to the scanning vendor off campus. It looks like the vendor will be ready to receive the first shipment soon. In anticipation of the beekeeping books being added to the growing library of digitally preserved historical works, Mann has recently expanded the capacity for handling post-scanning work in house. The system allows Mann to inspect and process the digital files for each book received back from the scanning vendor so that all text in the book can be easily keyword searched once it is online and all graphic images in each volume are of acceptable quality. Once the digitized volumes are processed through this phase, they'll ready to add to the publicly accessible Core Historical Literature of Agriculture collection on the Web (CHLA). Barring unforeseen delays in the scanning and quality control process, it looks like the top ten volumes will be available for viewing on our CHLA site before the end of this year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------- Top Ten List Alley, Henry. Title: The beekeeper's handy book; or, Twenty-two years' experience in queenrearing, containing the only scientific and practical method of rearing queen bees, and the latest and best methods for the general management of the apiary. By Henry Alley Published: Wenham, Mass., The author, 1883. Doolittle, Gilbert M., 1846 Title: Scientific queenrearing as practically applied; being a method by which the best of queenbees are reared in perfect accord with nature's ways. For the amateur and veteran in beekeeping. Published: Chicago, T. G. Newman, 1889. Dzierzon, Jan, 18111906. Title: Dzierzon's rational beekeeping; or, The theory and practice of Dr. Dzierzon ... Tr. from the latest German H. Dieck and S. Stutterd. Ed. and Charles Nash Abbott Published: London, Houlston & sons; [etc., etc.] 1882. Harbison, W. C. Title: Bees and beekeeping: a plain, practical work: resulting from years of experience and close observation in extensive apiaries, both in Pennsylvania and California. With directions how to make beekeeping a desirable and lucrative business and for shipping bees to California. Published: N. Y. Saxton 1860 Huber, Francois, 1750-1831. Title: New observations on the natural history of bees, by Francis Huber. Translated from the original. Published: Edinburgh, Printed for J. Anderson; London, Longman, Hurst, Rees, and Orme, 1806. Langstroth, L.L. (Lorenzo Lorraine), 18101895. Title: Langstroth on the hive and the honeybee; a bee keeper's manual. Published: Northampton, Hopkins, Bridgman, 1853. Mum, W. Augustus. Title: A description of the barandframe hive, invented by W. Augustus Munn, esq. With an abstract of Wildman's Complete guide for the management of bees throughout the year Published: London, John Van Voorst, 1844. Quinby, M. (Moses), 1810-1875. Title: Mysteries of beekeeping explained: being a complete analysis of the whole subject; consisting of the natural history of bees, directions for obtaining the greatest amount of pure surplus honey with the least possible expense, remedies for losses given, and the science of "luck" fully illustrated--the result of more than twenty years' experience in extensive apiaries. By M. Quinby Published: New York, C. M. Saxton & company, 1853. Phillips, Everett Franklin, 1878-1951. Title: Beekeeping; a discussion of the life of the honeybee and of the production of honey, by Everett Franklin Phillips Published: New York, The Macmillan company; London, Macmillan & co., ltd., 1915.. Root, A. I. (Amos Ives), 18391923. Title: The ABC and XYZ of bee culture; an encyclopedia pertaining to scientific and practical culture of bees. Published: Medina, Ohio, A. I. Root Co. 1879. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:19:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: the Small Hive Beetle news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Giuseppe said: here reassuming on all that that is known on the bettle http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-050.pdf Very interesting report. I found a few important points about the beetle were not in the report . I was also amazed that when the group met with the entire staff of the Beltsville Bee Research Laboratory all that was listed in the report was the areas of research the lab is working on (one paragraph). I can fill a page with notes when any of the eight researchers listed do a presentation let alone all in the same room discussing the current beekeeping problems.. I can not help but think better notes would have helped at the bee lab. Taking notes is a art in my opinion. You can't get engrossed in the things you are hearing and *forget* to write! Giuseppe said: it compliments the Australians Going to the front lines of a beekeeping problem is always the best way to learn. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:39:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ben Smith Subject: Re: Botulism in honey vinager solution In-Reply-To: <3F92F8DC.16716.ACC57@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On > Behalf Of Dave > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 1:50 AM > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Botulism in honey vinager solution > > The problem is that it is not acid at the beginning. The acidity > develps. An acid environment, oxygen, high enough sugar content > all will stop botulin from developing. But at the beginnings of the > process, the acid level is low, the sugar is diluted, and the > atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide. > If this is so, then why do you not hear of Botulism in Mead??? That is quite low in alcohol, and goes through the same initial stages as vinegar, also it is not heated (at least not in most of the recipes I have seen.) Is mead suspect too? Ben. (A keen Mead maker/drinker) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:24:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Botulism in honey vinager solution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben Smith wrote: Dave wrote >> The problem is that it is not acid at the beginning. > If this is so, then why do you not hear of Botulism in Mead??? There is botulism in some honey. We all know it because of the tests that were done which confirms it can be a source of poisoning for under one year olds. But There is botulism in many raw, unprocessed foods. which is why you should not grind up raw veggies and feed them to under one year olds. We eat honey and we eat the raw foods and usually suffer no ill effects because (as I was told) our digestive systems are mature and can handle botulism. Truth is, we are more likely to get ill from salmonella and other contact bacteria than botulism. The problem with botulism is in preserves and canning. If you create an ideal environment for it to produce its toxins and then eat the raw product you will get ill. The food does not smell spoiled, so there is no warning. It is hard to create an ideal environment for botulism when you produce mead. A high sugar content is not an environment where botulism will thrive. Check the canning directions for most fruits and they all call for sugar syrup (and boiling and boiling water baths). Then you progress to a high alcohol content, again, a poor breeding ground. So botulism does not stand a chance in mead. But other bacteria and yeasts can thrive in such an environment and spoil the brew- you get vinegar or off tasting mead which is why mead makers try to keep the operation as sterile as possible and keep out the unwelcome yeasts but only add their own (just like wine makers). As I noted, Preacher's vinegar was probably just fine, but we do not know how acid it is. If he stored it for any length of time (which is not out of the ordinary, since often it is fairly foul tasting and people tell you to "age" it) and it had a low or no acid content, you could get botulism poisoning. Read any canning cookbook and the most common phrases are "pressure cooker" and "boiling water bath", even for something supposedly acid like tomatoes. The Jet Star tomatoes I love are not very acidic and lemon juice is called for in canning them. The 5% acid content that keeps showing up in the literature is exactly the percent of acetic acid in "distilled vinegar" so it is actually what the vinegar should be when you use it for preserving. Generally it is diluted by about half at most, but you also boil everything and put the canning jars in a boiling water bath for about 22-25 min. Many recipes for vinegar call for additional water after the process is complete, since you usually are well above 5% and it is unpalatable. So it could be diluted to an unsafe state so it is drinkable and then stored. Bill Truesdell (Who thinks this thread has run its course and needs to be canned and preserved in the archives) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:28:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: honey and healing - mistaken link In-Reply-To: <20031019015808.50547.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hervé Logé wrote: >>For an english translation of the Swiss study >>http://www.apis.admin.ch/francais/pdf/Produits/Inhbibi>n_f.pdf) >>Hervé) Logé referenced go to: >> >>http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/pdf/BeeProducts/Antib>acterialInternet_e.pdf > It is a mistaken assertion. > > I am afraid these references are for two different > studies. The English link refers to a 1997 study, I tried to copy the French article (to put it in an internet translator) but was unsuccessful. Is there any way to get an English translation of the article? Bill Truesdell (Who will even accept an American translation) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:10:28 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cosman & Whidden Honey Subject: bee books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I believe the book Trevor recommended is titled "The Honey Flow" by Kylie Tennant, and I agree it is a great read. My nomination for favorite bee book is Richard Taylor's "The Joys of Beekeeping" which introduced me, a young man from suburbia who had never seen a beehive, to the possibility of making a living from bees, which I have been doing now for twenty years. This book captures the spirit of beekeeping, the struggles and the rewards, the satisfaction of producing honey and beeswax, and of working in harmony with these little creatures. As Taylor says " The world of men is always uncertain, seldom inspiring, often a source of discouragement and dismay. But the keeper of bees, like anyone who has welded his life to the cycles and patterns of nature, can always turn to his tiny creatures and his craft. The bees have a perpetual store of surprises in readiness for their owner, but they also have a constancy beneath it all." "Sometimes the world seems on the verge of insanity, and one wonders what limit there can be to greed, agression, deception and the thirst for power and fame. When reflections of this sort threaten one's serenity one can be glad for the bees, for the riches they yield to the spirit of those who love nature and feel kinship with everything that creeps and swims and flies, that spins and builds, to all living things that arise and perish, to the whole of creation of which we are only a part, like the bees." Tom Cosman Nova Scotia , Canada :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:13:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Maxwell Subject: New world carnolian bees I am writing to ask for advice regarding New world carnolian bees. My primary nectar flow in south Georgia is early and short, ending about May 7th (tulip poplar and gum). Then there is nothing until the golden rod in late September. I have just requeened my Italian hives with NWC. Have they done well or poorly for others in warm climates? Do you have any management suggestions? What problems have you had? How is their resistance to varroa compared to Russian bees? Thanks! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:33:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The recipe says this. > Take 4 1/2 pounds of honey to one gal of distilled water. > Boil the water and then add to the honey and dissolve. > Add one package of yeast on top of a slice of toast and float for 16 days. > Skim and let it work for 4-6 weeks more. > Does anyone have a better suggestion? > preacher First, if you add yeast, you won't get vinegar, you'll get mead. The organisms which make vinegar are bacteria (acetobacterium), which ferment sugars into acetic acid. Yeasts ferment sugars into alcohol. Secondly, I can't imagine what the toast is supposed to do. To make vinegar you need some mother from an existing batch of naturally fermented vinegar. You might try some un-pasteurized cider vinegar as a source. It's important that you get the mother from a good source (just like brewing yeast), otherwise you won't be sure of what the finished product will taste like. Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:50:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: A Good Read MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gentle Folks: Although I do not have any particular book to recommend to the list, I have been playing with the idea of editing a literary book on beekeeping: essays, poems, thoughts, anecdotes, fiascos, humors, non-fiction narratives, or whatever, collected in a book form. A moment, captured in our beekeeping activities, that seems to arrest the what-essence of life, offering us that sense of discovery which expands from beekeeping into life, that rare Aha-moment arrested in writing—-that is what I want. Nothing more, nothing less. For publishing, I will have to ask each contributor to defray part of the publication expense *upon acceptance.* The only criteria would be sincerity and intensity of the given work: no metrical- or rhyme-box stuffing. Length does not matter. I am NOT concerned with grammar as far as the content is genuine and sincere, for I prefer the humility in stutter to the glitz in any political speech: when one is sincere, one can stutter, one must, being truthful to oneself. [That's how we confessed our true love] Start sending me three to five samples to my email address. Here is a sample: SISTERHOOD Our abode is modest—small wooden boxes painted cloister-white, scattered upon a sunny hill. There we sustain our meager existence on eager diet of water, honey, and pollen we gather in the wild. We are all filial piety. We cluster around our Mother Superior, who bore us into our existence. We will defend her, our abode, and our way of worship to death. Kamikaze runs in our veins, and we each carry a dagger. Daily we divide our simple chores: baby-sitters, maintenance crews, guards, and hunter-gatherers. Practicing Puritan work-ethic, we trod miles to collect nectar, our bread and butter. Unsung environmentalists, we live in perfect harmony. We seldom talk, never balk, for we know talk is cheap. We communicate in silence and a few body-languages. We respect tranquility—-our modus operandi. We do have a few men around for emergency. Like most men, they wax their one-track minded thoughts day in day out. Large mouths, they consume three times as much, and when they are around, they call too much attention to themselves. They are expendable. At the first sign of frost, we abandon them, for they are big and fat and lazy and stupid. We rise to work at the first hint of dawn; we toil the natural soil till Vespers, the sixth of the seven canonical hours. Throughout our hard lives none of us whine—-we are content. When our body can no longer house our soul, we know the time has come. Quietly we leave our humble abode behind to meet the face of our maker, alone. Yoon http://intranet.stgregorys.edu/people/faculty/yskim/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:31:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Re: vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought all mead will turn to vinegar after awhile if left to sit in the open long enough. Is this true , or am I going to get houch instead:) preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:47:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: honey and healing - mistaken link In-Reply-To: <3F943763.8030505@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:28 PM 10/20/2003, you wrote: >Is there any way to get an English translation of >the article? Unfortunately it looks like they have protected it so that you can't copy and paste the text like you can with most acrobat files. The various online translators will handle it, but it looks like you will have to retype it. Any volunteers? -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:56:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: ID the gadget? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last weekend at the meeting of our association the son of a now deceased beekeeper was present to sell the beekeeping equipment his father had years ago stashed in the garage. We could identify all but one box of plastic plates the same size as a Langstroth deep with the ears to hang by. It is about 1/4 inch thick. The bars had about the spacing of a queen excluder. We have placed a photo of the item at http://www.geocities.com/nibaweb/whatzit.html There were many suggestions, but it is obviously a piece of beekeeping history that never caught on. We are interested in any ideas about what it might be. Any thoughts? Larry Krengel Northern Illinois Beekeepers Association :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 01:15:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: ID the gadget? In-Reply-To: <00a701c39787$4cae3410$639aacd1@Tom> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:56 PM 10/20/2003, you wrote: >The bars had about the spacing of a queen excluder. >We have placed a photo of the item at I think it probably is a queen excluder. With two of them you could confine a queen to a single frame ensuring larvae of a consistent age for grafting? There are still plastic dividers sold to divide hives into two nucs, confine queens etc. Typically though they are solid with only a small area functioning as a queen excluder to let bees come in. They also are adjustable to provide a good fit to the bottom and sides. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:36:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: the Small Hive Beetle news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I found a few important points about the beetle were not in the report. How about sharing a few, Bob? > it compliments the Australians Yes. I found it very interesting, and appreciate their sharing their experience. Given what we pay for Australian packages here in Canada, and seeing the US package bee prices shown at the bottom of their report, which are much less than the cost of Australian packages delivered to North America by air, I'm wondering how the Australians would ever sell any packages in the US -- assuming they get permission? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:24:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: vinegar MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT preacher, >I thought all mead will turn to vinegar after awhile if left to sit in the >open long enough. Is this true , or am I going to get houch instead:) > You do get hooch first, but if all goes well it gets turned into vinegar. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:27:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: phil MOORE Subject: Re: ID the gadget? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > There were many suggestions, but it is obviously a piece of beekeeping > history that never caught on. We are interested in any ideas about what it > might be. Any thoughts? > Looks like an anti swarming device I saw advertised in ABJ or Bee Culture in the early 90,s. Apparntly you alternate brood frames and the gadets in the brood box and hey presto all your swarming, disease and general beekeeping problems are solved, I recall the manufacturer took out a full page advert so he must have had some confidence in his product. Regards Phil Moore :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 06:38:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: ID the gadget? In-Reply-To: <00a701c39787$4cae3410$639aacd1@Tom> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >http://www.geocities.com/nibaweb/whatzit.html > > it is obviously a piece of beekeeping >history that never caught on. We are interested in any ideas about what it >might be. Any thoughts? > >Larry Krengel It is a type of follower board. Follower boards used to be common...in fact, I believe one (wooden) used to be included when buying hive bodies from Root. It looks to me as if it was to be used for confining the queen to one side of the brood nest...possibly for obtaining larvae of the proper age for grafting. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:46:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: vinegar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The recipe says this. > Take 4 1/2 pounds of honey to one gal of distilled water. > Boil the water and then add to the honey and dissolve. > Add one package of yeast on top of a slice of toast and float for 16 days. > Skim and let it work for 4-6 weeks more. > Does anyone have a better suggestion? > preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I'd like to hear from those who have successfully done it rather than those who have read about it or just have an opinion about it. None of the contributors on this subject have yet indicated that they are currently making honey vinegar or that they have done it with success in the past so far as I can tell. I've tried it. Didn't succeed. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:40:11 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: male sterility In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit About a post on male sterility (or at least lack of sperm) increase some days ago. "But inbreeding has a price. If a female mates with a male carrying her version of csd, half of her brood will develop into sterile males, despite being genetically female. Worker bees destroy these larvae. It's not clear why identical versions of csd cannot function together - "that's the next mystery", says Page." from Honeybee sex gene discovered - Nature web site - JOHN WHITFIELD - 22 August 2003 http://www.nature.com/nsu/030818/030818-15.html Hervé www.emelys.com ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:37:31 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Bee language Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Wenner says that my suggestion that some bees that follow a dance use the information to avoid the already discovered food in order to find new sources, is "an interesting rationale, but not very scientific". I doubt if science philosophers would see this as a proper defence of the odour hypothesis. If Adrian thinks my hypothesis is not very scientific, he should say why. `Science' is difficult to define in such a way that finds universal acceptance, but my Oxford dictionary says that a definition of science is that it is `an organized body of knowledge that has been accumulated on a subject'. My suggestion is based on such an organized body of knowlege accumulated by many researchers, (including Adrian), and so I claim that my suggestion is indeed scientific. Regards, Barry Donovan Canterbury Agriculture and Science Centre Lincoln New Zealand. ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:47:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: the Small Hive Beetle news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen asked: How about sharing a few, Bob? Below is one I believe needed further comment. When small hive beetle was first found in Florida I went to Florida to the source to learn all I could. One important finding was learned from an observation hive with small hive beetle also in the OB hive. I looked and could not see a single beetle through the glass but when the hive was moved the SHb appeared and started laying eggs like crazy. My conclusion and the conclusion of others looking at the phenomenon is that the small hive beetle is in the hive to lay eggs (which is the same for the wax moth) and when the hive is opened or disturbed the SHb will come out even in the presence of bees and lay eggs ( the adult beetle leaves the hive after the laying of eggs). Most insects carefully choose a place with food for their larva to feed upon after hatching so why should SHb be any different? Laurence Cutts and David Westervelt noted about when the SHb is disturbed in the report with the following statement " once adult beetles are disturbed they are stimulated to mate and lay eggs" on page 15 of the report I believe. It is my opinion that the removing of honey supers in Florida (especially with the abandon method ) stimulates the SHB to lay eggs. Although the SHb would prefer (in my opinion) to lay eggs in the dark brood comb when disturbed they lay in supers and also find the supers unguarded by the bees when using the abandon method very attractive. The SHB period from egg to pupation can be as short as 7 days. The egg stage lasts 2-3 days. The report is full of honey house SHB horror stories. Bob's solution to the above problem is different than every persons which commented in the report but as yet untested. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:53:09 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee language Barry Donovan said: > Adrian Wenner says that my suggestion... > is "an interesting rationale, but not very > scientific". Don't worry, your rationale is no worse (but no better) than Adrian's rationale(s). In my view, it deserves equal time, and fair consideration. I should mention that the set of places to NOT forage would be very large for any one bee colony, so I am forced to wonder how such an "exclusionary" mechanism would work, given that any one potential recruit can only witness a limited number of dances. If I were to describe all the places where you could NOT find food, even in the small town nearest me, you would get very bored long before you were able to get a grasp of where you might go looking for food. In regard to both sets of claims, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That which can be asserted without evidence clear can be dismissed without evidence. > I doubt if science philosophers would see this Isn't the term "science philosopher" an oxymoron? I certainly think so. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::