From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:18:31 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57AB948F04 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZd6011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0311C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 153337 Lines: 3423 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:38:42 -0800 Reply-To: mejensen2@pacbell.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Jensen Organization: No Junk Mail Subject: Where did GM Plastics go? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Last year I bought some panel bears from GM Plastics in Bristow, OK for a very good price. I understand that they closed up but are operating under a new name. Does any body know how to get in touch with the new company or Bret Gragg and Roy Messer probably somewhere around Oklahoma City? Thanks in advance. Mark Jensen mejensen2@pacbell.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:06:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Rotation of Varroa Treatments James wrote ""Tim Vaughan writes >Chris, I'm almost at a loss for what to do." I use Apiguard and it is easy to put it on the top bars of the brood chamber (on each if you have more than one). I imagine any other registered thymol based treatment would be done this way. So, it is quick to apply. It needs to be applied when there is no honey being made." Thanks, James, I've been watching the postings concerning this. Around here, I treat in Oct.- Nov. and sometimes it's 80 degrees F outside. Do you or anyone else think I would run a risk treating my bees with this product? And what do people who have used it over a long period think of it's effectivity? Regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:24:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in upstate NY, our winters are as bad as Canadian, so I was wondering > what our northern neighbors use for a winter wrap. What material and the > best way to apply it. So any wintering tips would be greatly appreciated! > Don Campbell > > Mohegan Lake, NY > I use black roofing felt (tarpaper) that you buy at a hardware store. I've always felt that the only benefit of wrapping using the black is that on cold sunny days the black would absorb some of the heat and give the bees a slight chance to move about. I use a staple gun to attach it ( you don't need many). I also try to shelter the bees from the wind so I use the forest and a hill to my advantage, prior to that I built a fence for a wind break I put hardware mesh along the entrance to keep out the mice and give good ventilation so the condensation that the bees generate can escape. Kent Stienburg Kingston Ontario Canada :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:59:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Winter Wrap So any wintering tips would be greatly >>appreciated! Wind can be deadly to beeyards, Winter wrap up here in the prairie provences of Canada is a must. Around the sides and ontop with insulation covered with tarpaper in groups of 4 works for me. I keep the inner cover hole open for venting of water vapour and for an enterence, the snow can get deep here. A young queen also helps. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:55:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: (West Virginia) State Apiary Program for 2004 in Possible Danger Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said; A state bee program that was even providing free mite treatments is clearly one that was spending more money than would be prudent under the triple whammy of reduced tax income due to the ongoing economic downturn, reduced federal money available to the states, and increased numbers of "unfunded mandates" (Federal regulations that force action by states, but do not provide Federal funding to cover the expenses). I did not know any state was handing out free mite treatments? If so how long would a hive have to reside in a state to qualify? Jim said: Beekeepers are clearly a "special interest group", and without a thriving set of pollination customers to complain that bee inspection and extension services are mission-critical to THEIR crops, they are the sole voice to explain their plight. The USDA and many senators are well aware of beekeepers but as Jim says we do not command many votes. Jim said: Even our State Apiarist has a multi-purpose title - he is the "State Apiarist" and the "Endangered Species Coordinator", a juxtaposition of roles that I find eerily amusing, if not highly appropriate. Endangered species should include beekeepers. Maybe we could get a section of prime honey producing area given to us for our habitat? Jim said; Clearly, numbers matter, as votes tend to be the lingua franca of government. And aalso the numbers involved in donations ! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 00:30:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in West Virginia we've have just about quit using winter wraps. The bees need fresh air more. Matter of fact we live the screen bottom board on and open all year, they seem to do better. Just have some wind break until the wind don't blast up in the hive. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 07:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I"m seriously thinking about giving up apple pollination. It's hard to = imagine honey prices going back down below a dollar again and at 35 a = hive for rental its starting to look like a loosing proposition. This = past season was defiantly a looser. It was a late wet spring and the = bees went into the orchards light and came out worse. I should of fed = but didn't and the bees never built up properly for the summer flow. = Usually I can't tell that big a difference between hives that get moved = and those that aren't but this year it was obvious. If I new for sure = the honey prices where going to stay above a dollar I'd give up the late = night adventures. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:01:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Pollination In-Reply-To: <001e01c3ab72$196ea950$9aa25b40@rickWG5N33DUTV> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are many discussions in the archives about the economics of pollination. Generally, successful pollinators know their true costs. The problem is in first weeding out the ones who depress the market by charging less than their actual costs, either through ignorance or a desire to get contracts. It is usually the former. In more than a couple of years it would have been more economical to keep bees in Florida for the honey than bring them north for pollination. But then you would lose the pollination contract in other years when the economics were reversed. It all boils down to the obvious. The most successful pollinators are the best businessmen first and beekeepers second. In my area here in Maine, there were several "hobby" pollinators who mostly pollinated blueberries. I know of only one left and he is tenuous. Since he sells his honey retail, most years he is losing money pollinating. Your colonies can go into a blueberry field heavy and come out light. Plus, he picked up AFB from other pollinators which lead to loss of those colonies and equipment. If you do not keep good records of what it is actually costing you, it looks like you are making money (he has a well paying day job). Which is why he still does it. After seeing what pollinators go through here in Maine, I am amazed that they do what they do. It is a difficult, marginal business. But it is also essential. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Dewey Subject: Melting old comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've got a trash can full of comb taken from used frames that I recently purchased. I need an efficient way to render this. I was wondering if anyone had used a crock pot - It would seem that I can keep the temperature high enough to melt the wax but well below the flash point. Any thoughts? I really don't want to purchase expensive equipment for a one time project. (The combs were inspected for scale prior to my purchase.) Thanks! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:15:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Melting old comb In-Reply-To: <000001c3ab92$f8949d90$1697c3d8@homebase> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:10 AM 11/15/2003, you wrote: >I've got a trash can full of comb taken from used frames that I recently >purchased. I need an efficient way to render this. I use cheap stockpots to render my cappings. I use two of them, one slighly smaller than the other so I can use them in a double boiler arrangement. They periodically seem to go on sale half off. They are lighter weight and fairly cheap, but work well. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:18:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Rotation of Varroa Treatments In-Reply-To: <200311150006.hAENoceJ024095@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200311150006.hAENoceJ024095@listserv.albany.edu>, Tim Vaughan writes >I treat in Oct.- Nov. and sometimes it's 80 degrees F outside. Hot for us!! > Do >you or anyone else think I would run a risk treating my bees with this >product? No risks have been reported to my knowledge. I have seen "beards" forming if a nuc was given a full treatment and some bees hanging outside for a few days after a treatment. I now put the Apiguard to the side of the nest. I also prefer to put it on a plastic sheet now (I use tubs and vary the dose to suit the colony size). > And what do people who have used it over a long period think of >it's effectivity? I have not used it long enough. My strategy is to treat when needed, and I am still feeling my way to establish the critical levels of mite, as indicated by mite numbers, which require treatment. Leaving it too late, as already posted, ensures that the spring bees are diminished through losses to viruses and brood damage is intensified. I am hoping that as the years go by and breeding concentrates valuable characters, that the frequency of treatment drops. I am still checking and I have found one colony which might be marginal (500 mites in a month) so a second opinion based on the next mite count will establish if I have to try a different treatment, or wait till the weather warms (soon or perhaps in February) and give it a dose. I would have to rely on a lower effectiveness if the temperature didn't get to the magic 15C which gets evaporation going well adding to the dispersal by the bees (it was about 11C today and bees were flying in the sun) and then give the second recommended treatment in spring. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:48:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Spagnolo Subject: thoughts on wintering in a shed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After several years of experimenting with different wintering methods, I built a shed and am wintering 45 hives inside this year. I am interested in the experiences of others who have tried this method. I live in northern Minnesota. Our winters are very similar to what you would expect in Winnipeg, with snow from October through March and several months of below freezing temperatures. Pollen usually becomes available in mid-April. The past few winters have been moderate, with little snow. I have tried wrapping, not wrapping, feeding and several other combations. My success has been limited and not dependable. My shed is 8 x 8, insulated, ventilated inside and out, and thermostatically controlled to 36 degrees F. I have 45 hives stacked inside. The hives went in last week. I don't anticipate taking them out until mid March. All hives were in heavy singles, with 2003 carniolan queens from Kona Queen in Hawaii. They all produced a good crop and were medicated for tracheal mites, foulbrood and nosema. Each hive has a screened bottom board and an inner cover with a screened hole for ventilation. I have been told that I will have to add some humidity into the shed in February when the queens will begin to lay new brood. Any thoughts on this? Although they hives have only been inside for ten days, they are calm. The clusters are spread across the frames. The heat source has not turned on as the inside temperature has remained between 38 F and 48 F, from the heat of the colonies themselves. Earlier this week the outside temperature dropped to -12 F and the shed stayed at 38 F.! I am interested in any thoughts or advice that anyone might have concerning my "experiment". I have been reading this list for many years, first when I worked at Kona Queen and for the past five years when I have been keeping bees in Minnesota. I have learned a lot and hope that I will be able to learn more now! Mark in Keewatin, Minnesota :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 22:41:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Melting Old Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At 11:10 AM 11/15/2003, Andrew wrote: > >I've got a trash can full of comb taken from used frames that I recently > >purchased. I need an efficient way to render this. *********************** Efficient rendering: store the comb in a cold place for the winter and melt it in a solar wax melter next summer. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@fast.net (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 39.95 N 75.53 W :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 03:09:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: winter wrap In-Reply-To: <200311150500.hAF4mLfJ000793@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:00 AM 15/11/03 -0500, you wrote: >I live in upstate NY, our winters are as bad as Canadian, so I was wondering >what our northern neighbors use for a winter wrap. What material and the >best way to apply it. I live in Prince Edward Island and have never wrapped my hives in the 11 years I've been beekeeping. Generally my four hives come through the winter just bursting, and I've never lost one. I use an entrance reducer and there is an upper entrance in the inner cover. My hives are now sheltered from the north by forest but I have also had them in an exposed location. I have nothing to base my opinion on really, but it seems to me that not wrapping them (in my climate) is preferable. The first year I had bees - only one hive - I neglected to put the rock back on the lid. A rain/snow storm in November blew this heavy lid off during the night. The next day I was horrified to see the exposed frames completely covered in ice and snow. I put the lid back on and thought that was that. About a month later, I put my ear to hive and heard buzzing. In the spring this hive was so strong it sent out a huge swarm. Sharon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:28:34 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Melting old comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Andrew Dewey asks... > I was wondering if > anyone had used a crock pot Assuming that the 'crock pot' is what we in UK call a 'slow cooker' the answer is yes, put a little water in the base of the pot, fill with comb fragments inspect every 5 or six hours and add more comb, until the amount of liquid reasonably fills the pot, decant into plastic pudding basins and repeat the process. Throughput is not high, but it is not very laborious either. The power usage is small and the temperature is not high enough to damage the wax or cause ignition of the contents. This method is ideal for many small scale hobby beekeepers that might not otherwise bother with wax recycling. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:30:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: huestis Subject: Re: Melting old comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I have used a crockpot for many years to melt cappings and non-brood combs. However it becomes much harder to process brood combs in a crock pot due to all the slum. If you plan to stay in beekeeping and possibly expand you may wish to use something like this. Here is what I use to render combs: http://wave.prohosting.com/clay2720/4.9mm_comb_drawing.htm/rendering.txt It may be more than you need at this time but is something to consider in the future. Clay, NY Clay's Bee Page- http://wave.prohosting.com/clay2720/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:21:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Winter Wrap Beekeepers: A few decades ago the USDA did a study on insulating hives. Barry Birkey has posted the study on his web site for anyone interested in reading it: http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:35:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Melting old comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Clay said If you plan to stay in beekeeping and possibly expand you may wish to use something like this. Here is what I use to render combs: http://wave.prohosting.com/clay2720/4.9mm_comb_drawing.htm/rendering.txt It may be more than you need at this time but is something to consider in the future. If you need a larger wax melter Clay a 55 gallon drum can be used in the same way with one or two belt heaters or you can find a 55 gallon drum with a lower bung hole and adapt your immersion heater to fit but will need to drill a small hole in the drum side as the bulb length is to short to reach when used over the side. The heater in your picture is made by Walter Kelley company but sold by several bee supply houses. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 20:27:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Bob Harrison gets mentor & TM testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I recently found out a retired USDA researcher from the Tucson Bee Lab has moved close to me. He did a program for our bee club tonight with slides of several countries he visited researching bees. He has done quite a bit of work on African bees. He has concented to mentor me (his idea) on the way the bee labs run experiements , keep records and raise queens. On another subject: I have got a friend which teaches biology. I give her frozen bees to look at and the class disects the bees as a classroom project and reports back the problems found. Hmmm. Maybe a solution which might work for many on the list! What would take me all day they do in an hour. She called me last week and asked if the last sample I sent were Russian bees ( she knows I have been working with Russian bees) as the bees had a different head shape than their pictures in the books. I said I thought all mellifera head shape was basically the same. I guess I always cut off the head so really never looked close. Can you tell a Italian from a Carniolan by head shape? The last sample I sent her were a sample of bees I took off a semi load of another beekeepers bees (Nebraska)which had been in California to test for tracheal mites. I found no tracheal mites when I checked. The beekeeper did not believe me so I sent the biology teacher bees from the same batch I tested from a sample I took last January. She finnally found one tracheal mite in 24 bees. I do not know the strain of bees he uses as he buys queens from several queen producers. I was really not surprised as the bees had been treated for TM the fall before by a method I had shared with him. Bob Hopefully I will be able do spend many hours working with my new mentor next season! "Never to old need a mentor !" Ps. If the retired USDA researcher listens carefully he might learn a few beekeeping secrets from Bob not found in books or ever wrote about on the internet! My new mentor is friends with many people I have only read about in books. I am still amazed that a person which spent a lifetime researching bees and in his seventies would still keep a couple hives and still want to research. I guess a "patch" needs to be invented to help people quit beekeeping! Maybe Bob will need such a patch. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:43:20 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Melting old comb Melting comb in crockpots? What a crock! :) Why use an electrical appliance, when you can use the sun for free? If insulated, these things work even in winter, and work well without posing any of the risks inherent in putting wax near a heating element. One really needs something big enough to accept the largest frame size one uses, to permit "melting down" a complete frame or two at a time. Why? Comb has a "useful lifespan", beyond which it becomes a risk to the entire apiary. Here's a primitive solar wax melter http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/solmltr.htm Here's one made from a Styrofoam picnic cooler (or "foam fish box", if you work in the food service industry in New Zealand). http://www.beehive.org.nz/tips-and-advice/taa-easy-solar-wax-melter.htm Here's a fancy one that requires tools and skill to make. If you can't make it, someone who owns a table saw can. http://www.beesource.com/plans/solmeltr.pdf Here's one you can buy, if you have over $200 to spend http://www.mannlakeltd.com/publications/solar%20wax%20melter%20hh185.pdf The basic concept is an insulated box with a glass top, a mesh or tray to hold comb, and a collection container to hold the melted wax. Clearly, there are an infinite number of variations possible. jim (Have you ever found yourself rooting for a cow struggling to cross a rain-swollen river on Amazing Animal Videos while eating a hamburger? Beekeeping is kinda like that.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 06:02:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Melting old comb Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said: The basic concept is an insulated box with a glass top, a mesh or tray to hold comb, and a collection container to hold the melted wax. Clearly, there are an infinite number of variations possible. The drawback to solar is solar melters do not work very well in winter but they are the best choice for the smaller beekeeper and easy to make. Hwever a couple larger beekeepers I have met use solar. Rainbow Honey Farms uses two old refrigerators laid on their backs in a channel iron frame (door removed and seal left) with a pexiglass top to render wax. The frame also has wheels so the solar melter can be turned three times during the day to help with melting. In other words turn your melter to the southeast in morning. south at noon southwest in afternoon. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:18:51 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Melting old comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim & All > Why use an electrical appliance, when you can > use the sun for free? If insulated, these things > work even in winter, There is just the difference, my heavily insulated, double walled, shiplap clad, double glazed solar melter only causes wax to melt to a fully fluid state on a few days in the year (and I tune the angle of incedence for maximum possible insolation). (latitude 52.38) Even at it's best it will only melt just over a pound of wax per day. On the other hand a crock pot/slow cooker is a very low wattage and will melt it's way steadily through one or two pounds of wax per day, any day. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 05:50:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Cannaday Subject: Re: Melting old comb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 When I first started I used a large wax melter purchased from Kelly's. After using it for a few years I went to a Solar Wax Melter and have never used the Kelly's unit since. I place all my wax in a paint strainer bag which is like cheese cloth and let the sun do all the work. The cheese cloth cleans all the unwanted particles and leaves me with some really nice wax. On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:43:20 -0500, James Fischer wrote: > > Melting comb in crockpots? What a crock! :) > OhioBeeFarmer Getting kids involved in Beekeeping http://www.Bee-Keepers.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:47:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bob Harrison gets mentor & TM testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" > "I was really not surprised as the bees had been treated for TM (tracheal mites) the fall before by a method I had shared with him". Sorry to be elementary once more, but I have never bothered with TM but would like to be able to clean up now as Prof Winston makes the point strongly that : varooa on their own, not to bad; TM on their own usually no problem at all; varooa plus TM , absolutely deadly. So just what is the modern way to deal with TM now Frow Mixture has long gone? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:59:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Melting old comb In-Reply-To: <002901c3ad02$bb8066c0$42a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >In other words turn your melter to the southeast in morning. > >south at noon > >southwest in afternoon. I once saw an article in an old gleanings about a solar melter that rotated during the day. It was mounted on a shaft, that fit inside a pipe, that was mounted on a barrel filled with water. The shaft had a pin, that fit inside a spiral slot, cut in the pipe from top to bottom. On the bottom of the shaft was a float. The bottom of the barrel was fitted with a small faucet, which was opened very slightly. As the water leaked out the faucet, the water level dropped. The solar extractor rode the shaft down through the pipe, on its float, following the sun throughout the day. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:01:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bob Harrison gets mentor & TM testing In-Reply-To: <005601c3ad1a$caeb9ea0$a278bc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > varooa on their own, not to bad; TM on their own usually >no problem at all; varooa plus TM , absolutely deadly. The same I would say with TM and dysentery. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:54:23 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bob Harrison gets mentor & TM testing Bob asked: > Can you tell a Italian from a Carniolan by head shape? Why bother? Carniolans are (generally) so dark, and Italians (generally) so light, you can tell one from the other at 5 yards when the bee is in flight. But, like you, I assumed that morphology would be very similar, if not identical between the two. jim (And in other news, a whole bunch of horrible depressing stuff also happened around the globe, but we'll ignore that for now.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:58:14 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Melting old comb Mike said: > I once saw an article in an old gleanings about > a solar melter that rotated during the day... Wow, that's getting fancy. Next thing you know, someone will rig up a focused parabolic melter, and not only vaporize wax in seconds, but cause the frames to burst into flame! :) Seriously, if anyone is not getting adequate performance out of their solar wax melter, there are a few tricks of the trade that can help. I've designed and built several "solar enhanced" houses, so I've done the math more than once: 1) DOUBLE GLAZING Double glazing with a thin "dead air" layer between can really help, as most of the heat loss will be radiated through the glass. Sometimes one can find existing double-gazed window panes in metal frames, and they are worth the kludging required to adapt them to your melter. 2) ADD THERMAL MASS Get some bricks, paint 'em black, put them in the chamber. They will get hot, and radiate heat, keeping the temperature higher for longer. 3) CLEAN THE GLASS I'm not kidding here. Squeaky clean glass is important to getting a nice hot chamber. 4) ADD MORE INSULATION Can't hurt. Just wrap the chamber in some insulation batts. Extra credit for cutting a larger box from the Styrofoam sheet material, and gluing it to the surfaces of the box. 5) "SILVER" PAINT ON THE INSIDE OF THE BOX Assuming that the sides of the box have little thermal mass themselves, you want to reflect the light around inside the box and get more of it to hit (and warm) the combs. This may be the most marginal of the improvements one can make. 6) PARABOLICS Never tried this with a solar wax melter, but I did cover a 3-meter satellite dish with reflective Mylar and melted aluminum cans at the focus to make some castings once. Parabolics are scary, and can generate temperatures that, even when off-focus, require one to wear welder's gloves and goggles. A "trough" type parabolic might be safer for melting wax. You could fabricate one from roof flashing, but it would take some math and woodworking skills. The good news is that even a lousy parabolic will generate very impressive heat with very little sun. But don't blame me if you blind yourself and/or get nasty burns. You have been warned - parabolics are "weapons grade" solar collectors. 7) TRACK RACKS Get an old satellite dish actuator (from the old days when one pointed a C-band dish at different birds), and hook up a 555 timer and a relay to "kick" the dish every few minutes to track the sun (they run on 12 Volts DC, so a car battery or a lawn light transformer can be used). Manually adjust the height for the season with an "elevation" bolt. Adjust the "return" microswitch in the actuator to reverse the direction of movement during the night, so that the dish ends up pointing back towards dawn at dawn. This is clearly silly overkill, but who am I to limit your aspirations? jim (Hive yourself a happy Thanksgiving!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:35:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Melting Old Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm puzzled by the advice (from several sources) about painting the inside of a solar wax melter either white or silver. Mine is black inside and out. I paint it black to absorb light, not to reflect light. The absorbed light is radiated as heat. A light-colored surface might reflect some of the light back out of the box. Some of the heating effect would be lost. When we walk across an asphalt parking lot in summer, we feel the heat radiated back from the pavement. Sunlight hits the asphalt; heat is radiated from it. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@fast.net (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 39.95 N 75.53 W :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:40:19 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Melting old comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim & all > Wow, that's getting fancy. Next thing you know, > someone will rig up a focused parabolic melter, > and not only vaporize wax in seconds, but cause > the frames to burst into flame! :) During my time as a bee equipment manufacturer I spent quite a bit of time and energy trying to get some performance out of solar wax extractors... The sun does not shine very strongly or very often where I live. I had a project 'on the back burner' whereby there were nine pieces of aluminium rainwater guttering that were highly polished inside the box. They were cylindrical rather than parabollic in shape, but a focussing effect of sorts existed. The melted wax running along the channels into a collector at the bottom. The idea was that even when the direct insolation was not enough for actual melting the focussing would locally raise the temperature enough to cause melting, but like many projects this one fell foul of the bankruptcy of Apex Enterprises. One useful tip is to make your double glazed top much wider than the box that it fits on so that as the sun tracks across the sky the anlged rays at the start and end of the day can still enter the box. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:09:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cee Dempsey Subject: Re: [BEE] Melting Old Comb In-Reply-To: <004101c3ad63$7349f4a0$c0605cd1@w6b5r7> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I made a honey heater from a article in one of the bee mags. with 2 100w bulbs and a thermostat from a electric water heater you can set the temp. from 90 F to 170+ F and melt two, 5gal. buckets of cappings or wax in 48 hr. Dan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:32:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Melting Old Comb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Tim wrote in part: " Mine is black inside and out. I paint it black to absorb light, not to reflect light. The absorbed light is radiated as heat." Regarding his solar wax melter. I agree with Tim. My casual observations is that the wax melts from the top of the tray first - always. Which indicates to me that the melter works by heating the air to melt the wax. You want the interior of the box dark to absorb the solar energy and heat the air. I would probably leave the outside light but the unit would work better if the inside were dark. My melter works fine here in the summer at 45 degrees N lat but there is no way it would come close to melting wax in the winter! I have always wondered why folks continue to suggest painting the interior light when simple observation indicates otherwise. FWIW blane :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:39:07 +0100 Reply-To: apimo@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Melting old comb In-Reply-To: <008201c3adb8$15785060$0a00000a@DaveCushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Danish company have made a solar waxmelter out of stainless steel or was it high polished aluminium. The idea is to keep the accumulated heat inside the waxmelter. I myself lost interest but this was because of the price involwed. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software since 1997 version 7 is out with update facility with thank to Daniel Fishe home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:56:39 +0100 Reply-To: apimo@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Melting Old Comb In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Tim wrote in part: " Mine is black inside > and out. I paint it black to absorb light, not to reflect light. The > absorbed light is radiated as heat." > Regarding his solar wax melter. I agree with Tim. My casual > observations is that the wax melts from the top of the tray first - > always. Reflecting walls will reflect the sunbeams and throw those into the wax. This is not a problem but a benefit if the frames to be melted is laid down because of the thickness of the frame. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software since 1997 version 7 is out with update facility with thank to Daniel Fishe. Looking for some more translators to help me volundtary in multilizing the software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:48:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Melting Old Comb In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White wrote: >Which indicates to me that the melter works by heating the air > to melt the wax. You want the interior of the box dark to absorb the > solar energy and heat the air. I would probably leave the outside light > but the unit would work better if the inside were dark. You are trying to heat the frames and wax first. Everything else is secondary and a waste of available energy. The color of the interior is dependent on what you want to heat. If the interior is black, you will heat the walls of the box very well and also lose heat through the walls more rapidly, especially if the exterior is also black. If the walls are white and/or reflective, then what is in the interior gets the rays from the sun and that heats up (the frames and wax) but the walls remain "cool" and less energy is available for transfer to the exterior. Add a brick or two, as Jim suggested, and the heat will be longer lasting but the maximum temperatures will be arrived at later than if the bricks were not there. There is only a specific quantity of energy available in the box from the sun, so if you heat the walls then that portion will not be available to the frames and wax that you want to heat. Same with the bricks. It is interesting that old frames are usually dark, as is brood comb, so it should be what captures most of the heat from the sun's rays (with a white interior, the best of all worlds). You will not see any problems in lower latitudes because of the amount of energy available, but as you move north, you want the maximum heat to be on the frames and wax, not the walls. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:54:55 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Melting Old Comb Blaine said: > My casual observations is that the wax melts from the top of > the tray first - always. Which indicates to me that the melter > works by heating the air to melt the wax. You want the interior > of the box dark to absorb the solar energy and heat the air. There's another way to look at what you are seeing. The wax is melting on top because it is exposed to the direct radiation of the sun. The bottom and sides of the wax are not melting as fast because you are NOT reflecting the light onto the sides and bottom of the wax. If the air temp in the box was doing the majority of the melting, the sides and bottom would melt just as fast as the top, since air quickly reaches an "equal" temperature throughout the fairly small volume of the box. You could test this with thermocouples, or even some cheap thermometers. and Tim said: > I paint it black to absorb light, not to reflect light. The > absorbed light is radiated as heat. A light-colored surface > might reflect some of the light back out of the box. Some of > the heating effect would be lost. These are accurate statements if (and only if) the walls of the box have a significant thermal mass (stove brick, thick metal, etc) and/or were insulated on the outside. If the walls of the box have no significant thermal mass, and/or no insulation, it is better to reflect than to absorb light and heat. If the wax were in direct contact with the walls of the box, then even a tiny amount of thermal mass (like sheet metal) would be hotter if it were black and "absorbing" heat. Most melters have the wax up on a screen or mesh, hence my advice to reflect the light, and heat the thermal mass in the box (most often, this is the wax itself. > When we walk across an asphalt parking lot in summer, we feel the heat > radiated back from the pavement. Sunlight hits the asphalt; heat is > radiated from it. A layer of asphalt has a significant thermal mass. It also has "insulation" on the side not facing the sun in the form of an "infinite" mass of gravel and dirt with lots of "dead air pockets" between the pebbles. The exterior walls of a wax melter (wood or metal), if uninsulated, will radiate to the outside just about everything absorbed on the inside, since the outside temperature is lower than the inside of the box, and heat seeks "equilibrium" across any temperature gradient. Just to review, here is my personal explanation of the oft-mentioned "First 3 Laws Of Thermodynamics: 1. You can't win. 2. You can't break even. 3. You can't even quit the game. The trick is to minimize the unavoidable losses. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:26:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Melting Old Comb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have made solar ovens for cooking purposes (and of course the same principles can be used in a solar wax melter) and they work very well. They always recommend that you either paint the interior or cover it with with some highly reflective material so the radiation will be reflected back into what you are trying to cook or heat. The pot you put in the oven could be painted black, but the inside walls of the oven should not be. They should be relective (aluminum foil is usually recommended because it is inexpensive). Doing an Internet search on solar cooking or solar ovens would provide lots of useful and good information that could be applied to solar wax melters. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:04:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Check out Petition Comments: To: g.bess@att.net, CBow3952@cs.com, J5butcher@aol.com, A50CROSLEYTRK@aol.com, mountaineer001@msn.com, teresia.fought@mail.wvu.edu, smokey3206@msn.com, stephanie.kidd@camc.org, 2leadman@wv-cis.net, Rreed@aol.com, SpirWomen@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PETITION TO THE SENATORS AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF DELEGATES OF THE WEST VIRGINIA LEGISLATURE CONCERNING THE STATE APIARY PROGRAM Click here: Petition :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:18:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Stein Subject: Winter Ventilation In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031116025621.0230cc40@mailer.isn.net> In the November 2003 issue of the ABJ, Glen L. Stanley, Beekeeping Specialist from Des Moines, Iowa has an article on preparing hives for overwintering. Concerning ventilation he has this to say: "Now, with all else in place, it is time to do the final act that will conclude your bee work until April. Begin by inserting a middle entrance. We tried them all, but the best was the one originated by Dr. O. W. Park at Iowa State University, while he was doing bee research there. Acquire two pieces of cedar shingle, about an inch wide and two pieces of lathe 7 1/2 inches long. Place the shingles along the sides of the lower brood chamber (using two brood chambers) with the thick end forward. Place the lathe along the front from each side, so the entrance is in the middle. All will be glued in place shortly by the bees." (He then goes on to describe how he closes off the escape hole in the inner cover with screen or a thin piece of aluminum and places a 3/4 inch piece of Styrofoam the size to fit the top of the inner cover. The inner cover "should be made of wood only, Using some type of fiberboard looks like insulation, but it absorbes moisture and remains wet, freezing and thawing all winter long, so it is not recommended.") Again from the article: "Dr. Eric Erickson, while doing research at the USDA lab in Madison, Wisconsin, concluded that if there was a vent under the inner cover allowing the humidity to escape, the bees simply create more of it, as a colony requires some humidity, even in cold weather. Such a vent only caused the moist air to freeze as the bees created more. So make sure the inner cover is firmly seated on the upper chamber." He then describes how he wraps his hives with 15 Lb. felt. He claims that he has obtained consistent success using his method of winter preparation. I have read on Bee-L and other sources about placing the upper ventilation entrance on top of the second brood chamber under the inner cover or by drilling a 5/8 inch hole on one side of the front hand hold of the upper chamber. Glen Stanley's recommendations seem to have merit also. I would appreciate comments from those who have experience with using both at the top of the second chamber and middle (between the two chambers) methods of providing ventilation. Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jstein@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:55:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Winter ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim quoted "Acquire two pieces of cedar shingle, about an inch wide and two pieces of lathe 7 1/2 inches long. Place the shingles along the sides of the lower brood chamber (using two brood chambers) with the thick end forward. " I use exactly the same pieces of shingles, but nail them to the underside of the inner cover, thick end forward. The only difficulty I see in putting them on the underside of a brood chamber is that then the chambers could not easily be reversed. I do not wrap. I have tried it, and it works fine, but no better than not wrapping. AFAIK the only advantage of wrapping in this cold climate (but not as cold as mid-Vermont) is in the spring the tar paper works great in front of the hives as weed/grass control! Upper ventilation is the key! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:09:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Winter ventilation In-Reply-To: <003d01c3aeb5$7f5a8c20$cae9d518@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The western part of MT is relatively dry and not severely cold (20 below for 1-2 weeks is as bad as it gets). I have worked all over the U.S. My one comment - one size does not fit all. In humid, not severely cold areas, moisture is a major problem. So ventilation is a must. And bottom screens will work in many areas, even those that get winter, but I'd be cautious if you don't get snow fall. To wrap or not wrap. The main advantages of wrapping in roofing felt, boxing in waxed boxes, etc. are: Keeps the wind from roaring through the hive and 'stealing' cluster heat Provides a bit of warming on sunny days that may allow the cluster to move -- this is critical in northern states where under protracted periods of cold, the cluster may consume all of the honey stores under them and not be able to move laterally to uneaten food (honey) stores. Generally, they move up, but you don't want them trapped in February with the central core eaten and too cold to re-distribute. As per the wind -- my analogy is my truck in the winter. I drive it to the University every day. Engine's warm by the time I get to the campus. Snow on the hood is melted off because of engine heat. Normally, I park and don't worry, regardless of how cold. With a good battery, the truck will start in the evening. And, if I go out during the day, that engine has residual heat for several hours. But, add to that a roaring Hellgate wind (we get arctic "breezes" through Hellgate canyon and onto the campus in the winter). In fact, that's happening today. On those days, the engine heat is gone in a flash, and I go out to start the truck at noon, otherwise its going to be so stiff as to be iffy about starting in the evening. Consider the cluster to be similar to the engine. Bees don't heat the "box", but that buffer zone is important. Winds pouring through the hive suck any heat out, making them really work. That's stressful and increases food consumption. Now, if you are in a warm climate, you probably don't want to wrap. Your problem is that the bees are too active, eating honey like there's no tomorrow. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:57:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Check out Petition In-Reply-To: <188.21aa21bb.2ceb8f0a@wmconnect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" West Virginia faces even more challenges if the apiary inspection program is cut. Cuts in inspection programs and travel for inspectors, plus lack of proper training in many states has resulted in a return to the conditions of the 60's with respect to the issue of bee damage from pesticides. Since Dan Mayer moved to Montana, he and I have been getting more and more calls for help from around the nation. These calls coincide with the emergence of new pesticides that may be having unexpected impacts on bees -- but with the lack of trained inspectors, dollars to enforce regulations, etc., its difficult to know what problems are from mites, from nutrition, from monoculture agriculture, from urbanization, and from pesticides. As such, the beekeeper is left with virtually no help, but many are getting fed up and have started filing lawsuits - and by that, I mean class action suits involving lots of beekeepers and lots of states, with a strong possability of involving Canadian beekeepers. Lessons learned in the 60s about basic orchard management, bee protection, and related topics seem to have been forgotten. At least one judge has proclaimed pesticide labels to be simply advisory. If that stands, the pesticide labels will be worthless. We've seen a bit of movement. EPA is going to hold a meeting shortly after the first of the year to talk about some of the new generation pesticides. We're hosting a national forum on bees, other pollinators, and pesticides next summer in Montana. Now is not the time to cut apiary inspection programs, outreach, and education. Mites and africanized bees aren't the only challenges to beekeeping, and high honey prices may or may not continue. I don't mean to sound alarmist, but the industry has to look beyond the crisis of the day (e.g., mites) and look at the condition and future of the whole. Jerry Bromenshenk Bee Alert Technology, Inc. At 10:04 AM 11/18/2003 EST, Russ Dean wrote: >>>> PETITION TO THE SENATORS AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF DELEGATES OF THE WEST VIRGINIA LEGISLATURE CONCERNING THE STATE APIARY PROGRAM <Click here: Petition :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: SPAM: ------------------------ Spamnix Spam Report ------------------------- SPAM: Spamnix identified this message as spam. This report shows which SPAM: rules matched the message and how many points each rule contributed. SPAM: SPAM: Content analysis details: (6.4 hits, 5 required) SPAM: DOUBLE_CAPSWORD (1.1 points) BODY: A word in all caps repeated on the line SPAM: CLICK_BELOW (1.5 points) BODY: Asks you to click below SPAM: UPPERCASE_50_75 (3.0 points) BODY: message body is 50-75% uppercase SPAM: CLICK_HERE_LINK (0.8 points) BODY: Tells you to click on a URL SPAM: SPAM: --------------------- End of Spamnix Spam Report --------------------- <<<<<<<< :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:55:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: West Virginia Apiary Inspector Cuts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" West Virginia faces even more challenges if the apiary inspection program is cut. Cuts in inspection programs and travel for inspectors, plus lack of proper training in many states has resulted in a return to the conditions of the 60's with respect to the issue of bee damage from pesticides. Since Dan Mayer moved to Montana, he and I have been getting more and more calls for help from around the nation. These calls coincide with the emergence of new pesticides that may be having unexpected impacts on bees -- but with the lack of trained inspectors, dollars to enforce regulations, etc., its difficult to know what problems are from mites, from nutrition, from monoculture agriculture, from urbanization, and from pesticides. As such, the beekeeper is left with virtually no help, but many are getting fed up and have started filing lawsuits - and by that, I mean class action suits involving lots of beekeepers and lots of states, with a strong possability of involving Canadian beekeepers. Lessons learned in the 60s about basic orchard management, bee protection, and related topics seem to have been forgotten. At least one judge has proclaimed pesticide labels to be simply advisory. If that stands, the pesticide labels will be worthless. We've seen a bit of movement. EPA is going to hold a meeting shortly after the first of the year to talk about some of the new generation pesticides. We're hosting a national forum on bees, other pollinators, and pesticides next summer in Montana. Now is not the time to cut apiary inspection programs, outreach, and education. Mites and africanized bees aren't the only challenges to beekeeping, and high honey prices may or may not continue. I don't mean to sound alarmist, but the industry has to look beyond the crisis of the day (e.g., mites) and look at the condition and future of the whole. Jerry Bromenshenk Bee Alert Technology, Inc. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:15:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hugo Tremblay Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Donald and all, A well-known beekeeper here in Quebec proposed using "Thermofoil" as wrapping material for the hives, with a styrofoam on top of the inner-cover, wich is also covered by thermofoil. It is critical not to block the hole on the side of the inner-cover, because it is a "vent-hole" allowing humidity to escape. It is also used by the bees when temperature is high enough to perform a cleansing flight. I'm personnally trying this method for the next winter. Here is a link for a description of the method. It is in french, but the pictures tell it all: http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/hivernage.fr.html Regards, Hugo Tremblay Alma, Québec (above 48th parallel north !!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:42:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Ripe Drone This is about the grossest picture I've ever taken, but in the interests of the bee breeding industry, I post it. I was holding a drone to get a picture of his eyes, and I held to tightly, triggering that thing. http://images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10128/medium/47784.jpg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:02:07 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hugo & All, > A well-known beekeeper here in Quebec proposed using "Thermofoil" as > wrapping material for the hives, with a styrofoam on top of the inner-cover, I have been using the same material for wrapping hives here now for about five years with what seems to be good results. The material also goes by the brand name of Reflectix, you can read more about it at this URL; http://www.reflectixinc.com/ You can also check out how I wrap my hives at this URL near the bottom of the page; http://balder.prohosting.com/~starrier/index.htm Like I said I have had good results in the past, and in recent years I have been trying this wrap compared to Styrofoam hives and no wrap at all. I have also tried upper vent compared to lower vent only. What I think I am seeing is I see very little to no difference if wrapped or not and that the upper vent is paramount so this year I have gone with no wrap at all and an upper vent for all but one hive. Also I think it is very important to have some sort of insulation on top of the inner cover, I have been using the last two years a 1/2 inch piece of urethane sheeting that has foil on one side with the foil facing down. The urethane came cheap for me as it was road kill that I found on the side of the road. This year will be a great test for how I am wintering the colonies because right now we are experiencing a normal Alaska winter, Cooold. This winter will answer my final question about wintering bees in Alaska. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:50:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: Melting Old Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have used a solar wax melter very similar to the one referenced by Fisher at http://www.beesource.com/plans/solmeltr.pdf except that I added wheelbarrow type handles and a wheel so I can follow the sun and move it to cut the grass. This year, I was unable to locate the clear, thick, greenhouse film that I have always used in the small size I needed. So I paid a visit to my local glass dealer. I told him, in detail, including inside temperature, the problem I was trying to solve and ask him to tell me what I needed. I made sure he understood I was trying trap heat unlike what most door and window glass is designed to do. He recommended what he called "insulating window glass". He advised that most medium to large glass dealers make it themselves to customer dimensions. It consists of two 1/8 inch thick clear (in my case) glass panels spaced 1 inch apart, sealed all around and the space between the glass is filled with inert gas (no more trapped moisture). I paid $50 for a 21 x 37 inch panel and picked it up in 3 days. This panel is really easy to clean. It is heavy enough to force a good air seal yet light enough to handle. I added a wood cleat across the bottom end to prevent it slipping off when I move the "wheelbarrow melter". I have used this melter for a lot of years and this is the best solution I have arrived at. I think the secret is to tell your glass dealer what you need and let him tell you what to use. Bob Fanning Huntsville, AL USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:07:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Les Roberts Subject: ISBA Journal Free Download In-Reply-To: <200311190500.hAJ4Lufd013073@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The December 2003 edition of the ISBA Journal, published by the Indiana State Beekeepers Association is available for free download at http://www.HoosierBuzz.com/document/i0312.pdf Back issues are also availble at http://hoosierbuzz.com/document/newsletters.html Rob Green Editor ISBA Journal _______________________________________________________________________ CMW - www.ChristianMusicWeekly.com published weekly for Christian Radio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:06:29 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Ripe Drone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim > This is about the grossest picture I've ever taken, but in the interests > of the bee breeding industry, I post it. I was holding a drone to get a > picture of his eyes, and I held to tightly, triggering that thing. > > http://images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10128/medium/47784.jpg And if you squeeze a little more you will get full eversion and a blob of semen over a blob of mucus. The semen can be collected in a glass tip and 'hey presto' you have instant II. Perhaps it is a little more complex than that, but II really is a simple technique that can be mastered quite easily. There are courses run in USA and we in UK hold sessions every year, which would become more frequent if demand increased. In UK we have a formal association now... Previously known as IINGRIDD we are now called "The Instrumental Insemination Group". I am merely the newsletter editor of this group, but if anyone requires more details or if any researchers have some information for dissemination, they can contact me in the interim, as our secretary is recovering from surgery for a week or so. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:51:07 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Melting Old Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Almer's Apiary" "insulating window glass". It consists of two 1/8 inch thick clear (in my case) glass panels spaced 1 inch apart, sealed all around and the space between the > glass is filled with inert gas (no more trapped moisture). I paid $50 for > a 21 x 37 inch panel" This sounds like the 'double glazed units' now flooding UK, usually set in plastic frames. The problem with solar wax melters in UK is they only work well in July/August, which is NOT when I want to melt old combs. So they are only supplementary. In that case, spending a lot - such as n a new glazed unit - is uneconomic. However, these windows are fitted by specialist firms who are always removing old units, which they dump in their waste skips. I now have 4 units (being a natural squirrel) - waiting for inspiration on future use. As the UK problem is the intermittance of sunlight as the power source, why is it not common practice to make solars with 'dual fuel', by adding electric heating thru simply light bulbs? Is it beause solars are in fact pretty inefficent whatever u do? The (possible) inefficency may come from using dry heat - the melted wax then sinks into the dry cocoons and recovery of free flowing wax is reduced. The results I have seen here indicate u can get dry dross finally with little wax in it if u leave the combs a long time, like a full week of sun - but that incurs the penalty of slow throughput. Steam seems to work both fast and efficently - fast like 5 minutes or less, efficient because while the comb heats up steam condenses on the cocoons , filling the fibres with water so that they then do not absorb melted wax. The problemn for the UK obbyist is what equipment is economic compared with the value of wax recovered. Putting rough figures to it, say the complete set of brood combs is changed annually (which avoids any build up of brood disease to clinical levels, minimises drone cells so inhibits varroa, and provides unlimited laying space not peppered with old pollen) u have say 9 deep frames per colony a year. New foundation costs 0.85GBP per sheet but only 0.18GBP if wax is returned to the suppliers - so a possible saving of 6 GBP per colony. However, only about 80% of wax is recoverable from old brood frames so say 5GBP per colony per year. (You have to cap up with a little cappings wax). To recover wax by steam in autumn, I have tried: A. a deep s/s stockpot (10GBP) with a shallow collander lying in the rim ( 3GBP), and a small plastic bowl floating in the boiling water underneath (Total = 14GBP). Disadvantage: small capacity of collander = 1 deep comb per filling, difficulty of getting receiving bowl out without burning fingers. B. a 3-tier vegetable steamer (15GBP ) - comb in top, receiving bowl in middle section, water in bottom. Better, in that if middle section is lowered into a bowl of water the receiving bowl floats up and can be handled safely. A large catering size steamer would give good capacity but cost a lot more - and for some reason does not seem available locally here. C. a 'pasta' steamer - consists of a deep s/s pan with a collander inside 3/4 depth plus a second collander inside that to 1/4 depth. Allows two modes of action: (1) small bits are put in top collander and steamed so wax drops into receiving bowl in deep collander - removed by immersing in water so bowl floats up; (2) old combs are put in deep collander and boiled to a mush (4-5 combs at a time) taking say 5 minutes max, then a 'splash cover' (fine metal mesh in a circular rim, made to sit over a frying pan and stop fat spitting) is pushed down (u can buy just the right size, but have to cut the handle off) , forcing the mush below the water and letting the wax float up. The outer section of a cake mould (a deep ring of tin, no bottom) is put in to hold the splash cover (effectively, the strainer) down while the wax/water is poured out into a bucket to cool. The collander is then taken out to tip out the residual mush and u start again. It sounds a long process but can be done with your brain set on automatic. My preferred method as the capacity is reasonable and the dual mode deals with both complete combs in autumn and wax trimmings during the summer. But a 'pasta steamer' is 45GBP even in the local market. Umm! Needs 9 hive-years to get the money back, counting labour at zero! I can do carpentry but not metal work. Has anyone found a better way to use standard household items efficently for this messy task? Since steam works seems to work better in separating wax from old cocoons, the next experiment might be to add steam to a solar. In UK u can buy a 1.2KW steam wallpaper stripper for 22GBP with a flexible hose. Would this work if simply plugged into a well insulated solar that was big enough to hold say 10 complete frames? How does 1.2KW compare with the solar gain needed to melt old combs? Alternative 2KW models are available @ 29GBP. Robin Dartington. so a call can get Anyone trying here > > This panel is really easy to clean. It is heavy enough to force a good air > seal yet light enough to handle. I added a wood cleat across the bottom > end to prevent it slipping off when I move the "wheelbarrow melter". I > have used this melter for a lot of years and this is the best solution I > have arrived at. > > I think the secret is to tell your glass dealer what you need and let him > tell you what to use. > > Bob Fanning > Huntsville, AL USA > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:22:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TNT Apiaries Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the past we tried three different types of the foil backed bubble products with limited success. After one manufacturer/distributor came to the Alberta Beekeepers Convention several years ago, a local beekeeper switched 100% to this material for wrapping his 100+ hives. We looked at the space our traditional Western Canadian fibre insulated wraps & pillows took up for a couple thousand hives and thought he might be onto something. Depending on how you do them, in spring the foil/bubble insulation can be rolled into a 2-4' by 6-10" dia. package. A great saving on storage. The mice don't seem to want to chew it and the they can't live in it. The skunks seemed less inclined to scratch at it as well. I know the following will cause some of your eyes to roll, but it is as scientific as we get around here. For 4 years, with 3 different products, we randomly choose 4 packs (4 hives) out of 8 to 10 packs in each of 5 to 6 yards. I stress the word random. We used a single layer on the sides and doubled it on top. This was supposed to be equivalent to R10 to R12 and R20 to R24 respectively depending on the product. Our traditional black poly/fibre insulated wraps have R12 sides and R20 tops. All hives have a upper entrance in the inner cover. For us the results were always the same. At the time our winter losses ran between 7 & 12%. The foil wrapped packs were always at least a little poorer by spring. In spring we rate our hives 0 to 5 (0 dead/5 booming right across the box)and compared to the rest of the yard these hives would average 1 to 1.5 points less than the rest of the yard. These numbers were very close to using only roofing felt with no insulation. Not sure really why and frankly didn't care. This was our experience in the Canadian Aspen Parkland. These products may work well for others. Like most things in this business though, I can never reccommend enough that people try a few themselves before they try a lot. Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:24:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: The Future of Bee Inspection In-Reply-To: <200311200506.hAK49Sib003243@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I echo Jerry Bromenshenk's sentiment: "Now is not the time to cut apiary inspection programs, outreach, and education." >It is a tall order in these times to get politician support; sweetening >the pot in various ways may help. See my view >http://home.earthlink.net/~beeactor/free/papers/bee%20inspection.htm Malcolm T. Sanford Professor Emeritus, University of Florida http://beeactor.vze.com 352-336-9744 or 392-1801 x 150 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:59:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Inspection Programs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry and Malcolm agree...""Now is not the time to cut apiary inspection programs, outreach, and education." Hmm...I agree totally and completely with the "outreach and education" part of this statement. I do not agree that the "inspection" part must be part of the statement, but I know that in some special instances it is, and has been very successful. I also know that in some instances the "inspection" program spends a great deal of taxpayer money with little benefit to the beekeeping industry or the public. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:57:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Inspection Programs In-Reply-To: <004301c3af87$a8a3aad0$cae9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > Hmm...I agree totally and completely with the "outreach and education" part > of this statement. I do not agree that the "inspection" part must be part > of the statement, but I know that in some special instances it is, and has > been very successful. The problem with omitting inspection is you lose a vital part of what you need to sell the program. Outreach and Education is easy and does not require anything except pamphlets and an extension agent. If you are trying to save a program, I would not omit inspection since it, more than the other two, is tied to a real, experienced beekeeper. Bill Truesdell bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:40:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Winter Ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said; In the November 2003 issue of the ABJ, Glen L. Stanley, Beekeeping Specialist from Des Moines, Iowa has an article on preparing hives for overwintering. I believe the second paragraph of the article gives the most important information about wintering if one does not wrap. "where north and west winds prevail during winter months,it is best to select a location in FULL SUN with a NORTH AND WEST windbreak." Bales of straw make a nice windbreak. When wind chills drop into -20 to -80F for long periods you are going to get deadouts in the Midwest without wrapping OR windbreaks. Luckily wind chills of those temps and for long duration do not happen all the time in our area but always make for a increase in deadouts when they do. . I keep a large supply of straw bales on hand (wire tied works best in my opinion) in case the need arises. About once every five years I need to go out and set straw bales. One bale high has worked for me as the bale creates a wind flow up and over the hive even if in two hive bodies. Wintering used to be the most discussed subject by northern beekeepers before "mites"! I do not agree with Dr. Erickson's conclusions on wintering but he has the right to his opinion! I was never as hard on Dr. Erickson when his report came out years ago as many northern beekeepers were! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:15:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Inspection Programs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi ALL READERS, I Always say TOO much, and many think I should keep my mouth SHUT; but in this case I can't to it. Inspection is of VITAL importance, not so much as AFB is found and HOPEFULLY destroyed, but the great majority of inspectors are very talented beekeepers that are daily aware of the ever changing beekeeping picture. These inspectors are the FIRST LINE of Outreach and Education of so many new beekeepers and indeed, even some of the Stubborn "good old guys" who are still trying to keep bees like "Daddy kept bees" 40-50 years ago. Daddy did NOT have mites, SHB, antibiotic treatments, "killer bees", SMR queens, HYGIENIC queens, pheromone knowledge, or plastic foundation; all of which we have today. The new beeHAVERS are buying packages, setting them out in April, watching them work from 50 feet away, and expecting honey running out of the front entrance by Labor Day. TOO EMBARRASSED to ask for help from a MASTER BEEKEEPER or too cheap to buy a NEW BOOK (written in the past 10 years so it covers today's problems) and if buying one, too lazy to read it, that bee INSPECTOR is the first one that he can consult with and respect because the state has seen fit to pay this person based on his beekeeping knowledge. All those people truly interested in beekeeping should do all we can to save bee inspection programs, even if YOU ARE MAD AT ME, because of my BLUNTNESS. George Imirie, Retired Scientist Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 72nd year of beekeeping near Washington DC Author of George's PINK PAGES found monthly on the Internet Author of American Beekeeping Federation Hobbyist Tips Past President of Maryland State Beekeepers :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:11:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The following was posted on another group. Jim said I could post this on Bee-L for comment. Tom Patterson, Aurora CO Now for something that I'd never seen before and was wondering if anyone else had seen this before - First a bit of background on the related hives - One has five hive- bodies and is filled to the brim with honey and pollen and has a huge population of bees (this hive usually issues 4 to 6 swarms every spring) and is from all indications healthy. The second hive is located about 100 feet from the 'super hive' and is three hive bodies deep and again is filled nearly to capacity and healthy. A third hive is the same setup as the second hive and located a couple hundred feet from the other two. Now about 2 weeks ago as I was walking by the second hive the air was filled with bees (much like when bees start to swarm - but these bees were MAD so I had to back off a bit and try to observe what was happening!). This went on for the whole day and finally later in the afternoon I donned my suit and went in for a closer look. When I got to the hive I was surprised (stunned may better describe it) to see many thousands of dead/dying bees on the ground in front of the second hive. The dead bees were 4 or 5 inches deep on the ground. The activity was still going on and the only way I can describe it is a 'war'. I started following the bees leaving the attacked hive and they were all going back to the super-hive and the bees leaving the super-hive were going directly to the second hive. This continued until dark, by which time the second hive had been greatly reduced in population. First thing the next morning the activity resumed - mortal bee combat unlike anything I'd ever observed. I had been trying to figure what I should do and decided since it was so late in the year to let Mother Nature take it's course and observe. By noon on the second day every bee from the second hive was dead and predictably the honey was continuing to be robbed out by bees primarily from the super-hive (I still don't know where they were putting it!). At about noon, the bees from the super hive attacked the third hive - same frenzied action of the day before at the other hive. The third hive bees had plugged their entrance over the summer to close all but two small holes for entry and exit. Again the 'attack' continued till dark. A few bees from the third hive died, but they seemed to hold of the attack successfully. They weren't attacked again the next day and all seems to have returned to normal with all the remaining hives. Question - has anyone else experienced this sort of bee war? I realize in bad years stronger hives rob out weaker ones if given a chance, but this wasn't a bad year and the robbing bees didn't need the supplies (or really have a place to put it!). Hope this wasn't too rambling to follow! Have a better BEE day! Jim Glennon Valley Farm Rabbits Possum Valley, Arkansas jimglennon@yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:20:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Hubbard Subject: bees at night? I got home after dark yesterday and (without smoke, gloves or veil) took off the outer cover, removed a syrup feeder pail, and proceeded to reverse the inner cover so the notched opening is facing up. There were loads of bees on the inner cover and on the top bars of frames underneath. My actions did not phase the bees at all! (temp was about 65 deg F) Is this surprising or not? I'm not suggesting anyone move to night handling but I was surprised that not one bee seemed phased by me popping off the inner cover. What's the deal with bees at night? Mark H. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:09:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When the honey flow is over bees to look other sources of honey. Reduce entrances on all hives after main flow. Especially weak hives. Most commercial beekeepers would NOT keep those hives of five deep hive bodies. You want all hives in the apiary the same strength. Decide on the size you want (one, two or three hive bodies) and stick to the rule. Next spring take a couple hive bodies away (from the bottom) as those below should be empty. Swarming is fun to watch for the hobby beekeeper but is considered a big loss in honey production by the professional beekeeper. Take off all lids in the yard when robbing starts and the bees should settle down. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:47:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Mapping proteins In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3223318.stm Interesting article on the mapping of proteins in fruit flies. This research is where genetic research is going since proteins are what are behind our biological processes and will be the key to disease elimination and/or control. We know that it is not Varroa but virus that actually kills off the bees. If you could control the virus, you could save the bees. Still a long way to go, but it is interesting that they are as far along as indicated. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:54:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: bees at night? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark asks: There were loads of bees on the inner cover and on the top bars of frames underneath. My actions did not phase the bees at all! (temp was about 65 deg F) Is this surprising or not? I'm not suggesting anyone move to night handling but I was surprised that not one bee seemed phased by me popping off the inner cover. What's the deal with bees at night? Bees crawl at night for the most part. You can get plenty of stings at night but mostly from bees crawling. Bees are clearly easier to handle at night as far as moving goes. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 18:24:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Take off all lids in the yard when robbing starts and the bees should settle > down. Bob, Help me with this. This is the first time I've heard of this tactic. If it works... why? I throw grass in front of the entrance. I liked the system of 50 years ago recently noted in one of the Bee Mags of putting a container of water on top of the hive and arranging for a constant drip at the entrance. Bees stop robbing in the rain. Anyone ever do this? Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:25:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: mysteries of the hive (was Hive robbing ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Help me with this. This is the first time I've heard of this tactic. If it works... why? It works most of the time. If robbing has been going on awhile the method will not be as effective. The closer the hives are to each other the better the tactic works. I first heard of the method over 40 years ago from my mentor. Dick asks: Why? Not sure but figure when their own hive is open the robbers attitude changes. Bees are very aware when their hive is open. My 90 plus year old former mentor used to say when you look in a hive and the bees are all looking back at you they are about to swarm. ALL the bees looking up at you is a unusual sight but every once in awhile I see the sight because I am looking. When you open the hive and all the bees stingers are in the air caution is advised. My mentor was almost blind but he could glean quite a bit of information about a hive by the sounds they made. I doubt I will ever be on his level but I can tell a queenless hive most of the time by sound. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:09:48 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Hive robbing Bob said: > Most commercial beekeepers would NOT keep those hives of five > deep hive bodies. You want all hives in the apiary the same strength. The statement above is not just false but silly. Anyone wants to maximize their honey crop. Big hives do the job of 2 or 3 smaller ones. Of course hives will differ within an apiary. Of course you should give hives all the brood space they can use, and stack supers with the aid of a stepladder, if required. A robust colony will produce twice the harvest of a "typical" colony, and these robust ones are the kind of hives our grandfathers and fathers had more often, which is one reason why current per-hive yields are lower than in tales of old. I assume when "five hive-bodies" is mentioned, this means 5 mediums, rather than 5 deeps. A colony that requires 5 deeps to overwinter would be worth sending out a film crew to document. :) In regards to robbing, removing the lids is a short-term solution. Clearly, one cannot leave the lids off overnight when it is cold. The "rain" trick works well, but is often impossible, given the lack of running water at most apiary sites. But reducing entrances is the key. A weaker colony near such a monster is easy pickings when fall comes and a bee's tiny little mind turns to criminal behavior. The weaker colony needs the smallest entrance possible, just to give them a chance of defending their stores. As for the constant swarms, the answer here is to make splits before the swarms get a chance to leave. jim (Living each day like it was the weekend since the 1980s.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 01:38:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glen van Niekerk Subject: Re: bees at night? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:20:22 -0500, Mark Hubbard wrote: Mark wrote: I'm not suggesting anyone move to night handling but I >was surprised that not one bee seemed phased by me popping off the inner >cover. What's the deal with bees at night? ____________________________________________________________________ Dear Mark, Here in South Africa most, if not all bee handling is done at night. This is done because our bees are extremely defensive of their hive, queen, honey and brood. I personally don't like working at night because of the bees crawling all over. They usually cluster on your back because of your body heat. I must agree that the bees are more “docile” when working them at night. Here, it is not a good idea to start working any hive at midday. My activities usually start at dusk and end before it gets too late because of safety reasons. Sincerely, Glen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:51:13 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Hive robbing In-Reply-To: <001501c3afb2$fc67b3c0$5ca59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <001501c3afb2$fc67b3c0$5ca59bd0@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >Most commercial beekeepers would NOT keep those hives of five deep hive >bodies. You want all hives in the apiary the same strength. Ah......... the things winter dreams are made of. Correct of course that management is a lot easier in a yard of hives where they are of broadly equal power. However..... I would just love them to be all of THAT size, and just going into a major flow. Doesn't ever happen of course (at least over here in Scotland), but we can still dream. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:27:01 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Cara &Tom Patterson" Question - has anyone else experienced this sort of bee war? I > realize in bad years stronger hives rob out weaker ones if given a > chance, but this wasn't a bad year and the robbing bees didn't need > the supplies (or really have a place to put it!)." IMHO such robbing only starts if the weak hive has a poor queen. Bees seem well able to defend any reasonable entrance if morale is high - sheer extra numbers in the stronger hive should not give overwhelming advantage. But if the queen is starting to fail, morale goes down, and robber bees seem able to detect this. So if u have monster hives, ensuring ALL hives have well-mated young queens would be wise. Leaving a hive alone that is being attacked seems crazy to me. Once stirred up, a robber hive is a danger to other hives and to people. If all hives have open mesh floors, it is simple to shut up both the weak hive and the robber for a day, without need for additional ventilation. The reason why taking the tops of hives as a first quick way to slow robbing may be, IMHO, that robbing is led by the same group of bees that supply the hive guards. If the home hive suddenly needs extra guards to protect a new sudden opening that places the home at risk, then that group may switch priorities. If however, all foragers have been recruited to robbing, it is too late for the method to work so well - IF my theory is correct. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:14:47 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: bees at night? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Mark Hubbard" " I got home after dark yesterday and (without smoke, gloves or veil) took > off the outer cover, removed a syrup feeder pail, and proceeded to reverse > the inner cover so the notched opening is facing up. " I would be very careful indeed on working bees at night without a veil. As others have said, bees do not fly (unless there is a strong moon) but if disturbed, they crawl - which is worse. They get into every gap and cannot easily be brushed off. They get on your back and when u pull off your top before getting into the car they crawl down your neck You beat ourself black and blue. I have had some very unpleasant experiences, chiefly when preparing bees for a move. On the other hand, bees do hang quietly at night so a quick simple manipulation can be done before they notice - but nothing more. Interesting that techniques have been worked out for African bees . I wonder if water spays are better than smoke for regular night working? Robin Dartington. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:06:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: bees at night? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark and the gang: Anyone who has experienced moving bees at night, soaked wet in the dead heat of summer, wonders how in the world the bees always find themselves inside the veil and under the sticky coverall—-no matter how tightly he/she has water-proofed the armor, an experience that will put an end to moving bees at night in short order. Night does not factor in here; rather, it is the shortening daylight hours and the gradual temperature drop that do. Although Mark indicated the temp was 65 F, the little burgers knew the seasonal change and perhaps the futility, speaking anthropomorphically here, of launching kamikaze attacks at this time of the year. Such phenomenon is especially common when the temp shoots up, in a warm spell, in dead winter. In fact, if you must open the hives this late, you will notice that many bees will just bang against the veil in a bluff rather than actually stinging although a few will do that, but not as many as you would encounter in summer. Had you done the same in summer, I guarantee, you would have related a different story. Dropping temperature has demoralized and hence demobilized the bees. Remember bees are reptilians, their fang modified into a sting at the wrong (?) end. Furthermore, at this time of the year, the temp can easily drop into 40’s even when the daylight temp had been in the 60’s or 70’s. To say the obvious, fall is perhaps the most depressing season for beekeepers, more so than winter since during winter we all know spring is a-coming. I am always anxious to hear Dave’s first report of coming spring. (As soon as the northwest wind starts to rake the leaves on the ground, I feel depressed and already miss spring. Don’t we all?) When we visit the apiaries in the fall, we sense this demoralizing lack of vigor that permeates around the colonies and the bees, in particular, as if someone had sprinkled cyanide over them or as if the bees were going through this seasonal manic depression of bipolar disorder as some of us do. Frost works like DDT on bees. On NPR [National Public Radio] I heard a few days ago that the sun had gone down in this Eskimo town above the Arctic Circle not to show up again till January 23, 2004. Although they do get the never-setting sun in summer, I wonder if I can survive such Cimmerian landscape. Wouldn’t it be great if we all could migrate to southern hemisphere during winter so that we could keep bees year around? Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:11:39 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: bees at night? Robin Dartington said: > I would be very careful indeed on working bees at night > without a veil. As others have said, bees do not fly > (unless there is a strong moon) but if disturbed, they crawl. The overwhelming majority of bees that are climbing will climb >> upwards << without fail, which is the key point to note when working with hives at or after dusk. So, the dress code is pant cuffs into socks, shirt-tails into pants, and long sleeves, but I don't see a specific reason for a veil, as I use them only when I must. I've never had a problem with bees crawling on me, but I've never torn down a hive at night. Added supers, sure. Filled feeders, sure. Emptied pollen traps, sure. By the time the sun sets, I am done with anything involving heavy lifting. The only actual work I do at "night" is when I move hives. I walk along the hive lines as dusk approaches and shove bent sections of 8-mesh into each entrance to seal the hives, and loop a ratchet strap around each, from bottom board to cover. My hives all sit on pairs of cinder blocks front and rear, or on ski-doo trailers rescued from certain death at the hands of the scrapyard, allowing the strap to be applied without moving the hive at all. After a hive is placed, the mesh comes off. A special case to note is that hives placed near a dawn-to-dusk flood light (or street light if you live in the big city) will seemingly NEVER stop launching sorties. The ways to disable those lights are many, with the least destructive being the removal of the "cap" on top, which contains the light sensor. Placing the hives in an area not illuminated by such lights is much easier. I've never seen bees flying on a clear night with a full moon, and I know that I have walked with the dogs along the hive lines often enough. (A dog lifting his leg here and there near the hives seems to do wonders towards intimidating pest mammals like skunks.) jim (Which is worse - e.coli in our food, or broc.coli?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:46:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray said: Correct of course that management is a lot easier in a yard of hives where they are of broadly equal power. However..... I would just love them to be all of THAT size, and just going into a major flow. Doesn't ever happen of course (at least over here in Scotland), but we can still dream. The reason *in my opinion* is in the way you manipulate your bees and possibly lack of labor needed to do the kind of kind manipulation we follow. In the circles I travel in we all work our bees in the same manner. Very labor intensive. We have no trouble keeping a few hundred to 50,000 all in two deep hive bodies , a deep and a half or similar config. YEAR AROUND. Without a complete teardown of each hive at times the process would not work. We are always amused when U.S. migratory beekeepers tour other countries and see apiaries with a yard of say 40 hives and each hive has a different assortment of size *brood nest* boxes. The methods we use are known to us and have been put in print in both ABJ and Bee Culture. I have alluded to these methods on BEE-L. I agree that many hobby beekeepers shudder at the thought of the complete teardown of a hive which we do each spring( and possibly other times) in order to keep bees within a system of boxes. Keeping bees in five deep *brood nest* boxes in my opinion has amateur beekeeper wrote all over it. Why dig through five *brood nest *boxes to find the queen, check for disease etc. I do not see a problem with five Illinois depth *brood nest boxes* as Dr. Farrar used BUT I know of no commercial beekeeper using such a system. . If the bees need space to cluster add supers. Many hobby beekeepers do keep hives in 3-6 deep boxes which fall over, blow over and are a big pain to move by hand if the need arises. The big difference in my opinion between the beekeeper non migratory and migratory is the beekeeper which moves bees has a strict system he follows. One man and a forklift can load the average semi load of 450-500 hives in two hours (when in uniform boxes). When I kept bees in Florida the queens kept about five frames of brood most of the year. We had to stimulate the hive by feeding to get the hive to build big populations. Why would you want to keep the hive in five deep boxes? Exception to rule: I see no reason to keep bees in five deep bodies throughout the year unless you harvest honey from the brood nest as Dee Lusby does because she uses no chemicals and is non migratory. When a beekeeper which has his hives in many different size boxes wishes to sell his hives he usually gets less of a price due to the fact the migratory beekeeper has to go through and get all the hives uniform. We pay bottom dollar and a big stack of tops, bottoms, inner covers and odd boxes left when we leave. All most migratory beekeepers buy is equipment they can use. I say the above because if you keep around a hundred hives in the U.S. and need to sell your hives in a hurry the migratory beekeeper usually will be the buyer of your bees. The idea of BEE-L is to learn. Many hobby beekeepers reading the above might have trouble understanding the above but those U.S larger and migratory will be nodding their heads in approval of what I have written. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:57:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Most commercial beekeepers would NOT keep those hives of five >> deep hive bodies. You want all hives in the apiary the same strength. > > The statement above is not just false but silly. Actually, the first statement is true and wise, the second is false, and if anything is silly, I leave it to the reader to decide. Bob's reply was from a commercial perspective, based on decades of experience across many state lines. AR, where these bees apparently were/are kept, is not far from his home. It is very true that almost no commercial beekeeper would leave hives in five bodies after the flows are past, and with winter coming. Most would take measures to keep them roughly equal in strength -- partly to avoid a robbing scenario like this -- and also reduce entrances by November. Some would leave them in three standard bodies, most in two or less, and most would feed, partly to have good wintering, and partly to avoid the type of thing that happened here. In fall, well-fed bees, housed in an appropriate -- slightly restrictive -- number of boxes, are calm bees, and they don't roam the neighbourhood looking for food, or wear themselves out before winter arrives. During a dearth, especially, in a cool fall which keeps them confined, a strong colony of bees will empty the comb near their brood at an amazing rate of a kg a week or more. After a week or two of confinement, all that empty comb stimulates the foraging instinct. When things warm up, they will go looking for food. Bees always prefer to gather feed at a distance, and will ignore honey -- or a feeder -- a foot or so away in their own hive to go to get what they can in any neighbouring hive. If a nearby colony is dormant -- perhaps having finished brood rearing and therefore not consuming feed as fast, and thus not being hungry -- the hungry bees will enter freely at first since the victim bees will be clustered, and progressive robbing starts in the bottom of the victim hive, where the cluster does not reach. By the time the victim colony gets wise, it is too late especially if the weather has turned warm and the entrances are wide open. These differing activity levels of nearby hives can be caused by many factors, including differing genetics, disease, mites, predators, differing amounts of shade and sun, hive colur, and amount of empty comb near the brood. Cluster size is a factor too, since the metabolic heat of a large population will warm the interior of their hive earlier than a smaller cluster, and thus a larger hive gets get flying at lower temperatures. Clusters in the top of a tall hive also are in warmer air than those near the ground. Hives in a low spot or shade awake later than those up higher or in the sun. Maintaining hives in similar, slightly restrictive, configurations in fall helps prevent the kind of disparity that will give one hive a jump on the others or motive to initiate robbing, and also ensures that there are not regions of stores within a hive that may not be well protected by the cluster. Reducers keep the hives warmer and more spread out, and also make for a smaller opening to protect. I don't know how carefully people read the original post, but the facts are, as far as I can see: There are only three hives involved, separated by distances of one hundred and two hundred feet. The hives are in varying numbers of boxes. The hives are in Possum Valley, AR. The time was early November. The owner is a rabbit farmer I could not find Possum Valley on my map, so unless it is a trendy suburb of some big city with a cool name, it is smaller than Swalwell (and that is *small*). The hives are separated by more distance than normal for a yard of bees, but seem to belong to one person, so I assume that the location is rural. Since they are not set close together, and since AR has a tradition of casual gum keeping, and since a number of swarms happen each year, I assume that the hives are not intensively managed, if they are a managed much at all. Just assumptions. The actual state of disease and mites, etc. is not known other than what we can gather from this: "One has five hive-bodies and is filled to the brim with honey and pollen and has a huge population of bees (this hive usually issues 4 to 6 swarms every spring) and is from all indications healthy. The second hive is located about 100 feet from the 'super hive' and is three hive bodies deep and again is filled nearly to capacity and healthy. A third hive is the same setup as the second hive and located a couple hundred feet from the other two". If we were to conjecture here, we could speculate that, maybe, the smaller hives were small for a reason, and perhaps overcome with mites or disease, and that this figured into the episode as well. "From all indications healthy" and "filled to the brim with honey and pollen" may or may not be accurate descriptions. Such descrpitions can be highly subjective. I've often found my own observations to be at odds with reports like this when visiting other beekeepers. We'll likely never know exactly what happened here, but we do know that competent commercial producers seldom encounter a robbing incident of this sort, even when using open feeding methods, due to the things we commercials do automatically, as a matter of course. We reduce the hive volume in fall, keep our hives at similar strengths, medicate and treat for mites as required, feed well and early, eliminate or manage weak colonies, and reduce entrances as indicated. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:01:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Inspection Programs In-Reply-To: <183.236acc9d.2cee6cb5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I couldn't agree more with George, inspectors are the first line of outreach and education, especially in areas with lots of small bee operations. In our part of the world - west of the Mississippi, where bee operations may range from 2500-60,000 colonies, inspection takes on an addition, vital task. Health certificates for migratory beekeepers are critical if you want to cross state lines, and you want to be sure that the inspector knows something about bees. When I started in bee work (30 years ago), every state had a full or part-time bee inspector. Now days, you are lucky if the person who checks out the spuds and cherries is also authorized to check out bees. Many inspectors don't know how to inspect a hive, and some are down right afraid of bees. George may not know about this issue - Maryland is one of the last hold outs with some very talented and committed people in a state-supported inspector/education program. Taken a step further -- without dedicated or properly trained inspectors, essential concepts like basic orchard management (don't spray with understory flower in bloom) fall out (e.g., Minnesota popular groves). Some state inspectors don't recognize pesticide kills, and EPA thinks 25% bee losses are acceptable!! Even if the inspector does recognize a possible pesticide problem, they don't know how to investigate, keep chain of custody records, properly acquire, label, store, and handle samples. State analytical labs are virtually out of business, and I and Dan Mayer are probably members of a very short list who remember when EPA had a test lab for pesticides in bees. With respect to Imidacloprid, few labs are set up to analyze for nicotinic insectides, and getting a copy of the lab's standard operating procedures is like pulling teeth. The labs assure us that they follow Good Laboratory Practices. That means nothing to me unless you show audited results. Anyone can claim GLP, but if the lab won't produce evidence of performance, the claim and any subsequent data is useless. Since the beekeeper indemnity program vanished, getting any restitution for bee losses is problemmatic and an expensive, drawn-out process. One that's futile if the state doesn't have someone who knows how to investigate the alleged incident -- and I assure you, most don't. There are some exceptions - Washington, California are a couple that stand out -- they may not be perfect, but they at least still have some idea of how to go about it, and have someone to do it. Its no wonder that EPA thinks bee kills from pesticides are something only a few beekeepers experience, or that they are reading public comments from 6 years ago for the first time (they've been busy with other things), and that states drag their collective feet when it comes to investigate alleged bee kills. Keep in mind, many inspectors are so poorly trained, they think a bee kill must be from mites. And, we've got beekeepers, big beekeepers, who are buying into the same idea. First bee drop and they worry about mites. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Taken a step further, it shouldn't be surprising that we encounter situations such as: 1) a state judge declaring pesticide labels are guidelines, advisory 2) a state attourney general trying to talk me into consulting for the state AFTER I told him that I would represent the beekeepers. He didn't seem to see any conflict there - I could represent the beekeepers and consult to him. Somehow, I didn't agree. 3) a large beekeeper complaining about loss of 50% of his hives this year from a plane spraying a new pesticide on cotton, who had no idea of why he should be concerned that other beekeepers were complaining of suspected bee kills from imidacloprid, one of the nicotinics. That is, until he learned that the new pesticide that killed his bees was another nictonic product like imidacloprid. 4) bee and beekeeper research groups focused on mites to the point that they haven't realized that pesticide problems are at an all time high. None of this is to dismiss mites, SHB, killer bees, or dumping of honey. But, I think its time that the industry took a deep breath, and looked around. Feuding over the honey board may be mute if mites, AHB, SHB, AND PESTICIDES put everyone out of business. And, with this posting, I expect to join George in being too blunt and saying things that many won't like. However, just answer my phone or e-mails over the last two years, and you might understand why this issue is taking on such importance to Dan and I, and we think, it should, to the industry. Thanks Jerry Bromenshenk Bee Alert Technology, Inc. beeresearch@aol.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:32:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Charles B. Cromer" Subject: Re: bees at night? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/2003 8:16:53 AM Central Standard Time, yskim@STGREGORYS.EDU writes: >>Remember bees are reptilians, their fang modified into a sting at the wrong (?) end.<< Hmm.... not to be nit picky, but I can't help but point out this error. While Bees are "cold blooded", they are not reptilians. Nor did their sting evolve from a reptiles fang. Sorry if that is a bit nit picky, but don't want someone who doesn't know any better to take this in. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:40:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Waldemar Galka Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bob, Would you please briefly describe how you perform your spring teardown? Is the goal to evaluate the queen and check for disease? And I would like to know if you use queen excluders? Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY >>Without a complete teardown of each hive at times the process would not work. We are always amused when U.S. migratory beekeepers tour other countries and see apiaries with a yard of say 40 hives and each hive has a different assortment of size *brood nest* boxes. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:56:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) In-Reply-To: <002601c3b03e$50aecdc0$48a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <002601c3b03e$50aecdc0$48a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >The reason *in my opinion* is in the way you manipulate your bees and >possibly lack of labor needed to do the kind of kind manipulation we follow. > > In the circles I travel in we all work our bees in the same manner. Very >labor intensive. This seems a little presumptive Bob. I am not sure you know what the nature of our management is (nor I yours of course), but it is intensive for sure, as we cannot get a honey crop which keeps a roof over your head here without doing so. We do not keep colonies 5 boxes high all year, or even aspire to: That is misreading what I wrote. We manage our colonies closely, using established and understood (but ever evolving) systems all through spring and early summer, using known brood areas and excluders. They are an essential management tool. They remain this way till the end of June or early July. We have a major value honey crop, heather, in August here which has returns proportional to bee power. The more bees of the correct type and age, the more honey. To maximise exploitation of this harvest we take away the excluders 5 to 6 weeks ahead of the onset of the flow (the flow itself is in a window about 4 weeks long), and allow the queen unrestricted laying area. This provides a large wave of young bees for the middle and late part of the flow in August. There is an old saying that 'heather eats bees'. A colony on a restricted brood area gives a crop over a part of the period, but late on the strength declines sharply. Plenty brood coming forward and the colony has more staying power. Hence my delight if the colonies were of massive power *at this time*. As the heather season wears on to its end the bees 'fill in' with honey down the colony as they retreat to the lower boxes and it is rare for the queen to be found in other than the bottom two boxes. By the end of the heather season in early Sept your colonies are down to wintering size and queen finding is simple. We generally, but not without exception, winter on singles, as this is adequate for our type of bee, and their relatively low winter stores consumption. they will eat a third as much as an Italian strain colony. The five boxes bit was just a romantic musing (as bee men do out of season), nothing more, and as has been pointed out, not a thing you really want to be faced with controlling except in a few specific circumstances. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 21:34:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray said: This seems a little presumptive Bob. I am not sure you know what the nature of our management is (nor I yours of course), but it is intensive for sure, as we cannot get a honey crop which keeps a roof over your head here without doing so. I actually do understand the way you keep bees because you explained your methods to me on the Irish list and I explained mine (or maybe I didn't). Check archives. Our goals are the same but our methods differ greatly. I learned the most about producing large honey crops from Dr. C.L. Farrar and his studies on two queen hives in Wisconsin (1958) and the amount of brood needed for max honey production. If the list can find either of these two pieces of hard to find literature I believe you will find both very interesting. Two Queen colony management for production of honey by Dr. C.L. Farrar 1958 (USDA-ARS) Dr. Farrar kept at one time 400 two queen hives and carefully documented what was going on in the brood chambers. Another must read: "The Relationship between colony populations and honey production as effected by honeybee stock lines "by Dr. F.E. Moeller (1961) USDA -ARS I had copies of both for years but have lost both over time. Although I can almost recite both from memory I would be interested in buying either piece of literature if a member of the list has a copy or would at least love to hear from a BEE-L person with the literature. Another "must read" if interested in honey production is the book "Honey Getting" by Lloyd Seagrist from around 1944 I believe. In my humble opinion Dr. Farrar , Moeller and Lloyd Seagrist have forgot more about producing a large crop of honey than Ormond and Harry Aebi (current holders of the Guinness book of records for honey from a single hive). The Aebi book " The Art & Adventure of Beekeeping (copy 1975 is an interesting read but I believe there is more to producing a large honey crop than the nine entrance cleats shown on page 144 of the book or the placement of supers shown on page 92. Thanks for the reply Murray! I power washed the honey house today and am ready to call the season over. I plan now to repair equipment and read my friend Adrian Wenner's book "Anatomy of a Controversy" first this winter as I promised Adrian when he shipped me the book. Hope to see a few BEE-L people in Jacksonville at the ABF convention. My friend George I. sent me a email today saying he is planning on attending. Glad George is feeling up to attending! I never fail to learn from George! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:14:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar asks: Would you please briefly describe how you perform your spring teardown? Is the goal to evaluate the queen and check for disease? And I would like to know if you use queen excluders? Every hive is reduced into one deep box, queen is evaluated, only a certain amount of brood is left ,checked for disease & mites, and honey stores are adjusted and fed if needed. The other box is gone through and painted if needed and returned later. So every box gets looked at at the shop every other year. I use excluders because brood in the honey supers is a problem for many reasons. Certain areas of the U.S. get by without excluders but the queens seem to chimney up through the supers in our area if excluders are not used. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::