From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:30:06 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED504907A for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZeq011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0312A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 238329 Lines: 5209 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:24:03 -0800 Reply-To: lwood@mindspring.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lyle Greenwood Subject: Re: Label problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII My black ink jet printing will survive a dishwasher, but the color ink will bleed from just moisture in the air. I have been going to a large dept store, in their automotive dept, and getting their Dupli- Color, Clear Coat, instead of the clear coating you find in their paint dept. It won't turn yellow. Lyle Greenwood Northern Alabama. > [Original Message] > From: Kathleen Darrell > To: > Date: 11/29/03 2:28:18 PM > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Label problems > > On Thursday, November 27, 2003, at 08:57 PM, Joe Miller (Bethel NC > USA) wrote: > > > Labelling my jars needs some improvement! > > > > I switched to some Avery labels with my ink jet > > printer and have 2 problems. 1-The ink bleeds with time, especially > > the > > colors. 2-The label does not put up very well with moisture, in other > > words the integrity of the paper does not hold up > > Dear Joe and all, > > I also use my ink jet to produce labels for the various sizes and > varieties of honey I produce. I also have problems with rain causing > the ink on my labels to run. I sell my honey from an honour table at > the end of the driveway, so am not always nearby to cover up during a > shower. I have always lived with the problem but recently found a > local supplier of non water soluble ink to refill inkjet cartridges. > I havn't tried it yet, but will next season. > > > Bob Darrell > Caledon Ontario > Canada > 44N80W > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:18:29 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size Dennis said: >> We were told in years gone by by the experts here in Australia that >> bees do not get bigger after they are born.... The standard phrase that I have read multiple places goes something like "Insects have no mechanism to 'grow' their cuticle." There are clearly several "moltings" during the larval stage of a bee, but what books I have read (I'd guess the most "authoritative" would be Dade's "Anatomy and Dissection of the Honeybee") do not mention any ability to "grow" a larger head or thorax. Note that I did not mention the abdomen in the above. It can expand and contract. Bill said: > Question for the experts. Is the exo-skeleton segmented or continuous? > If it is segmented, which I believe it is, that would allow for some > expansion or growth. I'm no expert, but I've post-mortemed enough bees to know that the abdomen is segmented. There are 9 segments, but you can only see 6. The other 3 are part of the stinger, and are "retracted". You hope! :) There is an "upper" and "lower" plate in each segment, and there is some overlap between them. The muscles that control the expansion and contraction of the plates are fairly fancy, with dedicated "protractor", "retractor", "compressor", "dialator", and "torsion" muscles all controlling the armor plate that lurks beneath the cute fuzzy coat. All the fancy musculature is to allow honey stomachs to expand and contract, and also allow mated queens to have bigger abdomens after they mate. The thorax also is constructed of plates, but they cannot move any more than is required to allow the wings to operate. Most texts say that the plates are "fused" to each other. I'd guess that bees that appear "smaller" are victims of poor nutrition (or just plain underfeeding) in the larval stage. If eating "brood food" after emerging could make for a bigger bee, some number of young bees would do so even under extreme pollen shortages, and be larger. But heck, take two eggs, feed one more, and you get a queen from it. >From the other, you get a worker. I don't really know exactly how that works, either. jim (The word "Politics" comes from two Greek roots: "Poly" [many], and "Tics" [blood-sucking parasites]) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:29:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Winter Wrap >Even with feeding corn syrup your managing cost is still 3-5$/hive/winter? No I meant my yearly winter wrap costs 3-5$/hive/winter? All depending on rodent damage, Even though cold can >kill a single bee if exposed to it, cold will not kill a cluster (like >George I. has said so adamantly) because they are working together as on >organisms. extreem conditions, long lengths of cold can prevent colony clusters from moving into honeystores. A wrap helps by holding a losser cluster during these spells, >people are only doing as they were taught right or wrong. I don't think beekeepers are that foolish. Wrapping and winter losses are very costly. It has forced hives to indoor facilities. You are telling me that all this winter prep is done without any understanding of honeybee wintering behaviour >have weather that has all these attributes also, hopefully not all at once. A good old Manitoba winter, ha ha >A hive needs ventilation also, more than most beekeepers think and I think >some wind will not kill the bees. Most all wrapps I have seen provide ventilation. I have seen hives in the middle of fields, wind must play a factor in there wintering losses. I try to keep my hives near tree bluffs. > >In this trail and error, did you ever not feed some hives and instead leave >them with honey to winter on. In these trails did you ever notice any dead >outs with soiled entrances, soiled top bars, unripened sugar syrup stores, >or any with no feed left. If so it could be pointing to a problem of poor >winter stores and not whether the winter was cold or not or whether they >were wrapped or not. >Just a note; I would be looking at your strain of bees your keeping and the >quality of your stores used for wintering. These were factors I found >important for wintering in Alaska and not the wrap. You are suggesting poor beekeeping management? I think when analizing any winter loss you are looking at all factors. the conclusion I came up with was that there was a higher winter loss, in unwrapped or lightly wrapped colonies in my beginning beeyards. It was not a scientific studdy, but my conclusions favoured wrapping. Spring strength of colonies was another factor that favoured wrapping. stress of a long cold winter makes our job as beekeepers difficult. When I prep the hives for winter, I expect and prepare for a harsh winter always. hoping for a average winter Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:36:12 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Trattle Subject: Re: Label problems In-Reply-To: <200311280157.hAS1vpe7022477@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Epson have a range of inkjets using DURABrite™ inks which they claim to be "Water and smudge proof ". I've not tried them myself but you should be able to get a local dealer to give you a demo to check out their claims. Joe Trattle :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:59:28 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ian & All, > No I meant my yearly winter wrap costs 3-5$/hive/winter? All > depending on rodent damage, > You would find zero rodent damage to your wrap using Reflectix and no risk of fiberglass contamination. > You are suggesting poor beekeeping management? I am not suggesting poor beekeeping management but simply beekeepers doing what they think is right and taught to them by mentors. I myself was taught to feed syrup in the fall to insure the colony survival, I found this to be a wrong thing for me to be doing. > I think when > analizing any winter loss you are looking at all factors. the conclusion > I came up with was that there was a higher winter loss, in unwrapped > or lightly wrapped colonies in my beginning beeyards. It was not a > scientific studdy, but my conclusions favoured wrapping. Spring > strength of colonies was another factor that favoured wrapping. > stress of a long cold winter makes our job as beekeepers difficult. > When I prep the hives for winter, I expect and prepare for a harsh > winter always. > hoping for a average winter > You did not answer my questions so I will try to ask them again because I think it has bering on the outcome of wintering in any condition, wrapped or not. 1) In this trail and error, did you ever not feed some hives and instead leave them with honey to winter on? 2) In these trails did you ever notice any dead outs with soiled entrances, soiled top bars, unripened sugar syrup stores, or any with no feed left? These are not hard questions to answer and if you were observing the dead outs you would have noticed these problems. Even if you are still now seeing these problems in your dead outs it points to poor winter stores in my opinion, wrapping will not help this. You should answer these questions to the best of your ability because even if you do wrap you will have better results if your stores are of better quality. > Even though cold can > >kill a single bee if exposed to it, cold will not kill a cluster (like > >George I. has said so adamantly) because they are working together > as on > >organisms. > > extreem conditions, long lengths of cold can prevent colony clusters > from moving into honeystores. A wrap helps by holding a losser > cluster during these spells, > There are other things that can happen to a cluster when wrapped when the temperature falls sharply for an extended period of time. 1) While it is warm the cluster is able to move freely and consume more stores than if they were not wrapped and kept cooler. 2) When it is warm out side it is even warmer inside, the cluster can begin to brood in a period of time they normally would not have and again more stores would be consumed than normally. Lots of stores are used when they brood. 3) When the temperatures do drop sharply for an extended period of time the cluster will contract and will not be able to reach the stores that was not rearranged during the warm period. If this cold period lasts to long they will die from starvation even though the stores were only inches away. This can happen even if they are wrapped if temperatures drop sharply for long periods. If a colony is wrapped the colony will require more stores than if they were not wrapped, in my opinion. > Most all wrapps I have seen provide ventilation. > I have seen hives in the middle of fields, wind must play a factor in > there wintering losses. I try to keep my hives near tree bluffs. > You would be surprised that the bees can take more wind than you would think. > I don't think beekeepers are that foolish. Wrapping and winter losses > are very costly. It has forced hives to indoor facilities. You are telling > me that all this winter prep is done without any understanding of > honeybee wintering behaviour > Yes, to put it bluntly. Things are not at all what I was lead to believe by the older beekeepers in my area when I first started beekeeping. Only by looking at things for myself did I find what I needed to do to make conditions better for the bees I keep. obviously you neglected to respond to some of my other conclusions in my previous post, you either agreed, disagreed, or did not know how to answer back, I do hope that if nothing else I may inspire you to see these things for yourself and not trust all you hear and read. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 23:30:07 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim quoted: "Insects have no mechanism to 'grow' their cuticle." Books = I have read (I'd guess the most "authoritative" would be Dade's = "Anatomy and Dissection of the Honeybee") do not > mention any ability to "grow" a larger head or thorax. > Bill said: "Is the exo-skeleton segmented or continuous? > > If it is segmented, which I believe it is, that would allow for some > > expansion or growth." The question is whether the thorax can expand. Apart from Dade, = Anatonmy and Dissection of h Honeybee, 1962 there is the heavier = Snodgrass, Anatomy of the Honeybee, 1956 - 330 pages. The thorax = consists of 4 segments, fused in the adult - but at what age? Fusing = makes the thorax strong enough to take the forces of the wing muscles - = but bees do not fly for the first few days, the same days young bees = feed up on pollen. Maybe the thorax is like a baby's skull - the plates = do grow a little before fusing? Neither Dade nor Snodgrass appear to = to mention differences between day old and week old bees.=20 Jim again: " But heck, take two eggs, feed one more, and you get a queen = from it. > From the other, you get a worker. I don't really know exactly how that = works, either." Not quite like that. According to Snodgrass, Weaver in 1955 fed larvae = unlimited brood food but failed to produce queens. Weaver suggested the = bees add something special to suppress worker characteristics in queens = - or an inhibitory hormone may be produced by the queen itself but had = not been found by 1956. Snodgrass emphasised that "The problem of caste = determination is not one of rich feeding but of bilateral inhibition" as = workers also inhibit some queen characteristics (which can still develop = later to some extent in queenless colonies).=20 In contrast, a bumble queen still retains all worker characteristics - = honeybees have been able to evolve further into specialisation of the = castes as they over-winter as colonies and the queen is never required = to do all duties herself Robin Dartington=20 =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 07:55:00 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size Robin said: > According to Snodgrass, Weaver in 1955 fed larvae > unlimited brood food but failed to produce queens. Is the most recent work in that area as old as 1955? I'd guess that these days, one could simply collect brood food from both worker and queen cells, and compare the two using all the high-tech chemical analysis developed since then. > Weaver suggested the bees add something special... But did Weaver ever watch the bees that feed both worker cells and a queen cell? Any one bee appears to be feeding a large number of cells, and the same bees will feed several worker cells AND the queen cell. This tends to make me think that they are "feeding all from the same pot", unless someone wants to propose that some sort of special enzyme is added by the nurse bee when regurgitating to a queen cell. > Snodgrass emphasised that "The problem of caste determination > is not one of rich feeding but of bilateral inhibition" as > workers also inhibit some queen characteristics (which can > still develop later to some extent in queenless colonies). But if this were strictly true, how could a queenright colony raise queens for swarming? jim (Money doesn't grow on trees, but banks do have branches) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:16:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TxBeeFarmer Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Rewaxing Plastic Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll be switching the rest of my brood nests over to 4.9 foundation this Spring. This will leave me with hundreds of frames of brood comb on plastic foundation. My goal is to recycle these for use in the supers. I could just scrape the brood comb off, but remnants will remain in the base of the cell imprints. If I truly clean the foundation, using hot water or a power washer, the wax coating will need to be replaced somehow, IMHO. Soooo, I need ideas on how to recoat the foundation? Dip um? Spray um? Rub with a block of wax then smooth out with a heat lamp? Comments and help please. Don't forget, we're talking several hundred. Thanks (West Texas) Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:51:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: re-using plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For reasons that are not clear (and I do not need to know them) Mark wants to destroy cells drawn on plastic foundation and then re-use the foundation in extracting supers. He said "the wax coating will need to be replaced somehow, IMHO." Nothing could be further from the truth! Bees will draw uniform beautiful cells on plastic foundation without any wax coating. In fact, all of the commercial beekeepers I know that use the plastic foundation buy it uncoated...to save a few pennies...and the bees draw it just fine. Unfortunately, many hobbyists do not know how to get foundation drawn properly, and beekeepers such as myself don't take the time to comment on how to do so. Briefly, do either: 1. Let the bees first fill a box with nectar and start to cap it, then put a box of foundation under that box and directly above the brood nest. This is how most commercial beekeepers I know draw entire boxes of foundation. 2. Feed, feed, and more feed. Use a top feeder (not a Boardman or a frame feeder) and either 55% corn syrup or a sugar water mixture of 2 sugar to 1 water. Feed until the entire super is drawn and is started to be capped. If you want a hive to draw more than one super of foundation (in conditions similar to those in the Northeast) plan on doing it by feeding. One cannot count on our flows lasting long enough to do more than fill one super with drawn comb plus drawing foundation for another. For all hobbyists, I recommend feeding as it is mightily discouraging to find a super that has all 9 or 10 frames only 2/3 finished as the flow quit too soon for the bees to finish. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:50:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: Rewaxing Plastic Foundation In-Reply-To: <02e001c3b8ef$9e249d00$0fc43745@me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TxBeeFarmer wrote: > ... the wax coating will need to be replaced somehow, IMHO. Soooo, I > need ideas on how to recoat the foundation? Dip um? Spray um? Rub with a > block of wax then smooth out with a heat lamp? I would think a pot of hot wax and a paint brush would do the trick. AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:29:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Winter Wrap 1) In this trail and error, did you ever not feed some hives and instead leave them with honey to winter on? No, fed up with surip in fall. About a pale and a half ave. ~2.5-3.5gal 2) In these trails did you ever notice any dead outs with soiled entrances, soiled top bars, unripened sugar syrup stores, or any with no feed left? Besides the difference in losses, I found that the difference was that the wrapped colonies I made more splits from. Unwrapps came through weaker and more dead, made fewer splits form them. Some had little to no stores, few had dysentry. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:53:25 -0700 Reply-To: ttownsen@telusplanet.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Townsend Organization: TPLR HONEY FARMS Subject: Re: re-using plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Nothing could be further from the truth! Bees will draw uniform beautiful >cells on plastic foundation without any wax coating. In fact, all of the >commercial beekeepers I know that use the plastic foundation buy it >uncoated...to save a few pennies...and the bees draw it just fine. > > As a point of interest, we did some pretty involved field testing with waxed and unwaxed frames over a five year period, involving several thousands of frames. The conclusions that we arrived at showed that the bees drew the waxed sooner, with less burr comb, brace comb, and intermediary and drone cells. With the unwaxed they took an average of 40% longer to draw, and contained around 20% more intermediary cells (drone, burr and brace). I guess if you are not concerned about the misdrawing, then it's probably fine, but I felt at the current pricing of honey, I wanted the frames drawn out and filled as soon as possible. > > >If you want a hive to draw more than one super of foundation (in conditions >similar to those in the Northeast) plan on doing it by feeding. One cannot >count on our flows lasting long enough to do more than fill one super with >drawn comb plus drawing foundation for another. > > I would like to comment here that if you are feeding to draw, that's fine, but make sure you don't extract that honey, there has been enough adulteration of honey without it being done in the name of drawing foundation. Tim Townsend >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:49:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Seasonal bee size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/12/03 05:04:24 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > I'd guess that bees that appear "smaller" are victims of poor nutrition > (or just plain underfeeding) in the larval stage. If eating "brood food" > after emerging could make for a bigger bee, some number of young bees would > do so even under extreme pollen shortages, and be larger. > > If I am quoting Norman Carreck corectly from a recent lecture at Buckfast, > bees that emerge with 5 varroa mites may be as much as 18% lighter than > uninfested sisters but within 3 days are the same weight. He did not say whether > the weight gain was accompanied by an increase in girth. > > Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:53:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Rewaxing Plastic Foundation In-Reply-To: <02e001c3b8ef$9e249d00$0fc43745@me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:16 AM 12/2/2003, you wrote: >Soooo, I >need ideas on how to recoat the foundation? Dip um? Spray um? Rub with a >block of wax then smooth out with a heat lamp? Comments and help please. >Don't forget, we're talking several hundred. I just paint them with melted wax using a cheap foam brush. It goes on thicker than the normal prewaxed sheets and tends to coat the rims of the cells more than anything else, but the bees fix it up and seem to draw it faster that plain or prewaxed sheets. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:13:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Winter Wrap I was not trying to poke insult at you or your beekeeping management. And if I have, it was unintentional. You are free to do what you want with your bees, and subject to your own thoughts and conclusions, as am I. Just challenging your ideas aginst my ideas. You are making a very bold statement. Beekeepers are mearly managing their hives by the way they were taught. This leads me to the conclusion that you must feel beekeepers have little to no understnading of beekeeping and beebehaviour. It is one thing to state that you feel that wrapping is unecissary, but to state ignorance amoungst beekeepers for wrapping is a little arrogant. A big factor I feel is climate, to which ours differ extreemly(as mentioned). So our conclusions will differ because of it. I realize you feel strongly about this, and seem convinced that wrapping is detremental to the hive, but all I can gather is that you are still mearly speculating. We will have to wait and see how your trial ended up. I can scrape up some trials which favour wrapping if you want. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:45:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Winter Wrap In-Reply-To: <200312021913.hB2IaeCL002733@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian wrote: > I realize you > feel strongly about this, and seem convinced that wrapping is > detrimental to the hive, but all I can gather is that you are still merely > speculating. We will have to wait and see how your trial ended up. I > can scrape up some trials which favour wrapping if you want. Ian, I think you are a bit harsh on Kieth, since he said that he found that wrapping did not make a difference, not that it is detrimental. The argument on wrapping/not wrapping goes back a long way and is covered very well in The Hive and the Honey Bee. So far, all that has been posted on this issue has been more anecdotal than a true trial. At least we are consistent (and I include myself. Opinion always trumps facts and it is a lot more fun). Bill Truesdell (who wraps himself but not his bees.) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:30:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: re-using plastic foundation Comments: To: ttownsen@TELUSPLANET.NET In-Reply-To: <3FCD25F5.6030202@telusplanet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim Townsend wrote: > I would like to comment here that if you are feeding to draw, that's > fine, but make sure you don't extract that honey, there has been enough > adulteration of honey without it being done in the name of drawing > foundation. Strictly speaking, this is not adulteration. It may be unnatural and unethical to sell the honey as natural but it is honey. Bees do not care where they get the nectar. They process it into honey, in this case it is corn syrup, hcfs or cane sugar honey. It is still honey. Adulterated honey is honey which has had other sweeteners added to stretch the honey. a·dul·ter·ate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dlt-rt) tr.v. a·dul·ter·at·ed, a·dul·ter·at·ing, a·dul·ter·ates To make impure by adding extraneous, improper, or inferior ingredients. You could stretch it and say it is adulterated nectar but not adulterated honey. Then you are really in trouble, since, if you feed, bees tend to move stores around, so if one gram of that feed made it into a super, it would make the honey adulterated. But that is a sophism. soph·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sfzm) n. 1. A plausible but fallacious argument. 2. Deceptive or fallacious argumentation. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:06:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Rewaxing Plastic Foundation Mark: My goal is to recycle these for use in the supers. I could just >scrape the brood comb off, but remnants will remain in the base of the cell imprints.... I have found that gently scraping off old brood comb with a hive tool followed by cleaning with a high pressure air gun that has a sharp high- volume flow pattern will give quite a sufficient cleaning of plastic frames. I usually hold the end of the nozzle about 4-6 inches away from the frame at an angle and with a raster type motion and allow the high pressure jet from the air gun to take off all wax, waste, and cocoon remnants. Sometimes the old remnants are rather stubborn to remove; however by changing the angle of attack of the air stream and or the distance from the air gun nozzle to the frame I find that I can work anout a frame a minute be it a deep or a medium frame. This works great for snap-in foundation as well. Caution should be given, the use of safety glasses is recommended since you are working with compressed air at about 110 psi. At this pressure even the most insignificant piece of debris can become a blinding projectile. After air cleaning I simply return the cleaned framed to their respective hive body or super, no recoating needed. My experience with re-using plastic frames is with Pierco plastic frames and snap-in inserts only; however, considering that the material composition of most of the brands available are the same type plastics I would suggest using this method as well. Try it! Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:58:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: re-using plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill said that is not adulteration to feed bees corn syrup or sugar water and call it honey. This may, by a stretch of the imagination, be honey to a small number of unknowing people. This is why the U. S. agriculture dept. has to keep a check on products that say PURE and may not be pure or nor even close. HONEY, as beekeepers present the product, is from nectar of plants. NOT MANMADE. Leather is from some type of animal not a chemical plant. Let us make every effort to be as honest with our customers as we want other producers of other products to be with us. Lionel Evans North Ala. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:28:17 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: re-using plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not in the EC where under Directive 2001/110/EC honey id defined as: Quote Honey is defined as the natural sweet substance produced by Apis mellifera bees from the nectar of plants or from secretions of living parts of plants or excretion of plant-sucking insects on the living parts of plants, which the bees collect, transform by combining with specific substances of their own, deposit, dehydrate, store and leave in honeycombs to ripen and mature. End Quote Perhaps, for once the E.C. has got soemthing right. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Truesdell" > > Strictly speaking, this is not adulteration. It may be unnatural and > unethical to sell the honey as natural but it is honey. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:55:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Looks like the discussion between Ian & Keith about wintering has finnished. Each sticking to his own way of beekeeping. Actually the way many beekeeping discussions on BEE-L end. As I have said many times on BEE-L beekeeping is a complex subject. Years ago about the only way to dig deeper into complex beekeeping was to talk to researchers. Today only the best beekeepers are left as those which would not learn about modern problems simply went out of business. Wintering is far more complex than the simple issues of honey versus syrup or wrap or not wrap. For those wanting to look a little deeper I recommend reading Dr. Sanfords article in this months "Bee Culture" called "Nutritional management of Honey Bees" (Dec. 2003 pg. 26). In my opinion BEE-L's own Dr. Sanford writes one of his best articles to date. With help from our own Allen Dick's discussion of pollen patties which Allen gave at the Canadian Honey Council, May 2003. It is very true we do know quite a bit about honeybee nutrician but most studies on protein were done over thirty years ago (but are still available). What we don't know as Dr. Sanford points out in the article is vast! Another article on feeding which Dr. Sanford talks about and I highly recommend was done by Dr. Jim Tew in Sept. 1996 (page 520) called "Focus On Feeding". I myself have refered to the Dr. Tew article on BEE-L myself. I believe (could be wrong!) that if you called A.I. Root at 800-289-7668 or emailed at www.BeeCulture.com and said you would try a years subscription to Bee Culture they would copy and send you the "Focus on Feeding" article ( Sept. 1996) and start the subscription with the December issue. The staff of both Bee Culture and the American Bee Journal have been very heplful to me and other beekeepers over the years wanting information. Although the ABJ library was on the upper floor of the Dadant building in Hamilton. Il. when the top of the building was partially distroyed by a tornado I believe Joe Graham told me they still have got a complete set of ABJ back to the start of the magazine. 1927 is as far as I go back. I also believe Bee Culture has copies of all their magazines. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:14:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am looking for information about the former "Tri State Bee Farm" while the outfit was based in Kalona, Iowa and the owner Jacob. The 2000 hive outfit left Iowa bound for Missouri in 1983. Thanks in advance and email me direct. Jacobs story is very interesting to me and I want to write his obituary and possibly an article for a bee magazine . Jacob died about eight months ago in a remote section of the Missouri ozarks. I am not sure of the last name spelling for Jacob but when my partner gets home tonight I can post if needed as the name is on the receipt for his outfit (or whats left). Please email me direct if you remember the operation or owner. Jacob bought his equipment from Dadant (according to his family)but not sure which branch but suspect the Hamilton branch. Thanks in advance! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:09:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The argument on wrapping/not wrapping goes back a long way and is > covered very well in The Hive and the Honey Bee. This topic has also been covered extremely well here on BEE-L, and is available to all in our archives. It has also been covered from differing perspectives in Bee Culture recently, and other magazines over the years. The topic is *not* a simple one by any means, nor is the answer a simple yes or no. Nor is it resolved for the wholle world by success or failure in one or several years, as, seemingly, many would wish. As with most beekeeping techniques, the use of wraps requires some expertise, judgement, and powers of observation. Moreover, whether wrapping will pay off or not, is not always predictable in advance, as no one can predict unusual weather that may be encountered. There are winters here when, looking back, we realise that we would have been fine without wraps. In other winters, the wraps make their biggest contribution in spring, or at least at the time of year when we normally expect spring :) Each beekeeper has different different circumstances, different goals, and are satisfied with varying levels of success. As with many questions in beekeeping, the best answer is "Depends...". allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 19:28:34 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Waldemar Galka Subject: Re: re-using plastic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I think this is one of the reasons why ethical beekeepers view store-shelf honey with suspicion. It's sad. Honey should only be pure and plant nectar-derived only. In a couple of former communist countries, there used to be - thankfully ! - a short-lived practice of selling a product labelled 'industrial honey' extracted from hives fed sugar syrup. There were very few takers for the stuff and the product disappeared... At least, they were honest about what they put on the label! ;-) Waldemar Long Island, NY > Strictly speaking, this is not adulteration. It may be unnatural and > unethical to sell the honey as natural but it is honey. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:23:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Bob said: Another article on feeding which Dr. Sanford talks about and I highly recommend was done by Dr. Jim Tew in Sept. 1996 (page 520) called "Focus On Feeding". I came in from doing bee work to take a break and picked up the 1996 Bee Culture from above and in the questions and answers section by Richard Taylor saw a very interesting question sent in by Arthur Young of Norwalk, WI. I wonder what kind of answer the beekeeping minds of BEE-L would give Arthur for an answer. Arthur Young's question from 1996: Honey Production: "An old bee book I have says that per colony honey crops average 235 lbs. in 1909, and the figure is 250 lbs. for 1916. Our average now is about 60 lbs. THIS SUGGESTS THAT, IN SPITE OF ALL THE EFFORTS TO IMPROVE HONEY BEES , BY SEARCHING ALL OVER THE WORLD FOR BETTER BEES ,THERE HAS BEEN NO IMPROVEMENT AT ALL." Comments? Bob Ps. Many beekeepers said after most of the feral bees were lost to mites that honey production would double for commercial hives without the competition from feral swarms yet averages have stayed about the same. Hmmm. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:07:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: re-using plastic foundation In-Reply-To: <20031203.112850.3579.1059758@webmail10.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mea culpa. OK, it is not honey. But it is also not adulterated which was my point. (Nothing is added to the final product.) And I agree, it is not Honey. From the classical definition, true honey comes from nectar or other plant secretions (the same definition in the US and Europe so we are not different). So please do not condemn US beekeepers because my pen got in front of my brain. I was not advocating it nor do I know of anyone who feeds to produce "honey", including me. As noted in my original post- it is unnatural and unethical. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:26:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: re-using plastic foundation In-Reply-To: <20031203.112850.3579.1059758@webmail10.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar Galka wrote: > In a couple of former communist countries, there used to be - thankfully ! - a short-lived practice of selling a product labelled 'industrial honey' extracted from hives fed sugar syrup. There were very few takers for the stuff and the product disappeared... At least, they were honest about what they put on the label! ;-) Or, they simply quit labeling it that way and kept on selling it... AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:37:40 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > Honey Production: > "An old bee book I have says that per colony honey crops average 235 lbs. in > 1909, and the figure is 250 lbs. for 1916. > Our average now is about 60 lbs. THIS SUGGESTS THAT, IN SPITE OF ALL THE > EFFORTS TO IMPROVE HONEY BEES , BY SEARCHING ALL OVER THE WORLD FOR BETTER > BEES ,THERE HAS BEEN NO IMPROVEMENT AT ALL." > > Comments? Perhaps it was their smaller brood cell size that they were possibly using that made the difference. At this period of time the push and the change in cell size and breeding for bigger bees had not caught on full swing yet. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:06:28 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" Honey Production: > "An old bee book I have says that per colony honey crops average 235 lbs. in > 1909, and the figure is 250 lbs. for 1916. > Our average now is about 60 lbs. THIS SUGGESTS THAT, IN SPITE OF ALL THE > EFFORTS TO IMPROVE HONEY BEES , BY SEARCHING ALL OVER THE WORLD FOR BETTER > BEES ,THERE HAS BEEN NO IMPROVEMENT AT ALL." > > Comments? The answer in UK would be reduction in forage - in 1916 sheep grazed clover-filled hillsides - agricultural practice has been to swamp wild flowers with fertiliser that favours grass. Farmers have been paid to grub out thousands of miles of hedgerow to make bigger fields - they are now being paid to put some back (it's all right, it's only the tax payer who has to pay twice for nought). England had had orchards for 2,000 years - now an extreme rarity. Even wheat fields glowed with poppies, now hardly seen. Super bees can't do better tha locally reared bees withhout something to collect. Nothing to do with winter wrap either. Can we have a new theme? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:09:00 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: re-using plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Tim Townsend" > I would like to comment here that if you are feeding to draw, that's > fine, but make sure you don't extract that honey, there has been enough > adulteration of honey without it being done in the name of drawing > foundation. What do u do with a super that is full of sugar honey if u do not extract it? Wasn't the purpose of feeding to draw the combs so u could get empty combs ready for the flow - so they sure have to be emptied first! Then u should flush the sugar honey down the loo - but are we sure everyone does that? Bill Truesdell said : "It may be unnatural and unethical to sell the honey as natural but it is honey. Bees do not care where they get the nectar. They process it into honey, in this case it is corn syrup, hcfs or cane sugar honey. It is still honey." What Bill omitted is that , as well as unethical, 'honey derived from bees fed on sugar syrup, candy etc, is not legally honey in any of the countries here considered' - I quote Eva Crane in her momumental 600 page 'Honey, a comprehensive survey', 1975, para 13.67. She outlined the regulations (in 1975) in Europe, Americas, Australasia . 'France, Germany, Spain, Switerland, and Latin Codex countries expressly say such honey would be illegal.........This does not exclude the use of sugar to feed bees, but it does not recognise as honey any product stored by such bees during the period of sugar feeding . In germany, such a product may not even be called artificial honey but in France it may be sold as sugar honey.' In USA, honey was defined in Food and Drug Act 1906 as' Honey is the nectar and the sugary exudations of lants which have been collected, modified and stored in combs by honeybees' - which does not include hive-fed factory-processed sugar as a source. So for Bill to say 'It is still honey' is not only wrong - it is dangerously misleading to the inexperienced. Padding out floral honey with sugar honey is something of a world-wide problem. Serious problems in Greece were reported in Beekeepers Quarterly last spring - a beekeepers who had has a phenominal harvest has ordered a complete container of sugar for next year. Beekeepers who knowingly sell honey containing sugar honey are committing fraud and are CROOKS. I have long feared that this particular manifestation of human greed may deal honey production a body blow. Ann Harman in Bee Biz Apr 2003 reviewed the USA National Honey Board survey on why people bought honey. 'Consumers consider honey to be good value because it is a natural product that is nutritious. .... Information about honey is usually obtained from the media - magazines, newspapers, and some from TV.' There is a great opportunity to sell more honey in the current scare about the health effects of eating sugar - and the rise in obesity and diabetes, even in children. But when the food writers find 'honey' may contain 'sugar' , the public who have paid 12 times the cost of sugar will feel cheated. And it will be totally an own goal. Quite often on Bee-L there are posts that clearly indicate sugar is being fed in ways that must result in sugar honey in supers - such as to draw out plastic foundation. Sometimes, any sign of criticism has been shouted down as liable to create a scare. Sort of ' We will be alright if noone realises what is happening'. Small hope! Small beekeepers have got away with suspicious processes because their crop size has not justified the cost of testing. Now in UK, Ministry Inspectors are starting to test samples of beekeepeers honey for residues and contamination. I quoted the honey heavyweight, Eva Crane. If regulations defining honey have changed materially since 1975, no doubt someone will say. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:00:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Rewaxing Plastic Foundation >>Rub with a block of wax That is all you really have to do. All you need is the smell of wax to attract the bees to the sheet. I don't think you have to completely coat the sheats withwax, although some feel it is nessicary. My supplyer is ordering a higher walled plastic foundation, not sure who makes it. They tell me that the higher walled foundation,even though it is not wax coated, will be worked without hessitation commonly found when drawing out foundation of any type. And the comb is rarely droned up. Anyone here have experience with this? Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 19:48:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: re-using plastic foundation >>What do u do with a super that is full of sugar honey if u do not extract it? Wasn't the purpose of feeding to draw the combs so u could get empty combs ready for the flow I'm sure the combs are prepared to be used in the brood chambers as replacement comb or for increase. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 17:34:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Sugar Honey (was re-using plastic foundation) In-Reply-To: <005f01c3b9fa$fcdcd7c0$4c3c74d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I feel like I'm about to stick my face into buzzsaw here, but some very strong things are being said about the "ethics" and "purity" of honey which seem a bit over the top. First, my qualifier. I am a hobbyist, not a producer. My point of view is purely that of an educated consumer of honey. 1. Last I heard, sugar was still derived from plants. (Yes, I acknowledge that it's factory-processed.) Even given the legal definitions that have been cited, you have not yet convinced me that sugar-based honey is definably different from other-based honey. 2. Sugar is not dangerous to eat (excluding obesity risk which is not the point of the discussion). Throwing around the word "contamination" in the context of sugar in my honey strikes me as irresponsible. "Contamination" is an emotionally laden word with very strong connotations of toxicity and danger. Please find a different word. 3. Feeding sugar with the INTENT to dilute or replace nectar-based honey certainly falls over the line of consumer deception, but ... 4. Trace or insignificant amounts of sugar-based honey does not automatically spoil the whole batch. (Please do not use the strawman that this argument means that trace amounts of miticides are therefore acceptable. See 2 above - sugar is not toxic.) "Pure" anything is a myth. We can strive for purity. We can achieve 99.99...% of purity. But we can never achieve a guarantee of "purity". You may not feed sugar, but do you really want to set a level of consumer expectation that will put you at risk if your bees rob a little from the hive of a neighbor who does? (And just to preempt the strawman that got used during the "organic" honey discussion - even in the most isolated apiary, how can you be sure that some hiker didn't leave a half-full can of lemonade around?) Can we move past the emotional rhetoric of absolutism and purity to a more nuanced discussion of intent and maybe thresholds? Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 18:25:25 -0800 Reply-To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carm Subject: Beekeeping Interview In-Reply-To: <200312040100.hB3H0X3F014687@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello all, I have to do a career project for school, and one of the things I have to do is interviews. Below are some question I hope some of you will answer for me. Also if you have any info that would show beekeeping to be an occupation that either is or is not a wothwhile occupation to get into, please send it to me. Also any trend statistics in beekeeping would be appreciated. Thanks a alot!. Carm Interview: 1. On a typical day, what do you do? 2. Has the work changed recently due to technology, marketplace, competition, etc.? 3. How did you find your job? 4. How do you see jobs in this field changing in the future? 5. How does your work contribute to the organization’s overall goals or mission? 6. Is there a “career path” in your field? 7. Is there a demand for people in this occupation? 8. What are the basic prerequisites for people in this occupation? 9. What do you like least/most about your job? 10. What entry-level jobs are best for learning as much as possible? 11. What is the salary for entry-level and more advanced positions in the field? 12. What is your level of freedom to solve problems and take action on the job? 13. What opportunities for advancement are there in this field? 14. What part of the job do you find most satisfying? Most challenging? 15. What personal qualities or abilities are important to being successful in this job? 16. What potential downside do you see for this field in the future? 17. From your perspective, what are the problems you see working in this field? 18. What special advice would you give a person entering this field? 19. What special knowledge, skills, or experience did you have or need for this job? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:27:59 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Sugar Honey (was re-using plastic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike the EU definition states (my emphasis) Quote Honey is defined as the natural sweet substance produced by Apis mellifera bees from the NECTAR of plants or from secretions of LIVING parts of plants, Unquote As far as I know sugar comes does not derive from nectar but from ground up parts of plants ,which having been harvested, are no longer living. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Rossander" > > 1. Last I heard, sugar was still derived from plants. (Yes, I acknowledge that it's factory-processed.) Even given the legal definitions that have been cited, you have not yet convinced me that sugar-based honey is definably different from other-based honey. > Mike Rossander :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:23:16 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: re-using plastic foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Ian" " I'm sure the combs [filled with sugar honey] are prepared to be used in the brood chambers as replacement comb or for increase." Ian believes in the goodness of human nature - oh, the good old days, I remember them well! The problem is that stores in the brood area are liable to be moved around by the bees especially if the nest is expanding, as will happen when stored combs are uswed for spring feeding, or given to a split or a colony newly formed from a swarm. This was amply demonstrated to British beekeepers who were given green-dyed sugar in wartime - their honey turned green. Any beekeeper who does not accept this should buy some food colouring and try it - the whole crop might have to be fed to pigs - or used to make Green Mead, a new brand to accompany Crabbe's Green Ginger Wine, which is wonderful stuff. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:34:41 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Sugar Honey (was re-using plastic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Mike Rossander" .......some very strong things are being said about the "ethics" and "purity" of honey which seem a bit over the top." With all respect to Mike, this seems always the first defence when an existing practice is questioned. 'Over the top ...If some sugar honey gets into honey on the shelf, it really doesn't matter'. Well, everyone has their own opinion. In my world, consumers know less and less about how any food is produced, or any manufactured product. Milk comes from plastic bottles, honey from jars, cars from showrooms. At the same time, consumers are becoming more cautious and expect everything they buy to be of a guaranteed standard. They want full disclosure of what it contains and are suspicious of any ingredients that may be a potential health hazard. (In UK, there is wholesale rejection of GM as yet another industralized practice that is not needed under UK conditions but which could well introduce as yet unknown risks). Hence the traditional appeal of honey, as picked up by the survey I quoted, that honey is a pure 'natural' product. Once u breach consumer confidence on that - and substitute 'honey is a product made by bees from sugars originating from plants, some of which may have been factory processed before being artificially fed to the bees' - you will , IMHO, cross a serious boundary. Apart from anything else, honey in UK sells for 3.00GBP and Golden Syrup (a viscous golden-coloured syrup containing acid-inverted sugar) for 0.35GBP. So consumers are paying 3.00-0.65= 2.35GBP for the difference. Put another way, honey is say 20% water, 78% sugars, and around 2% traces of other components that come with plant nectar. The sugar is worth 78% x 0.25GBP = 0.20GBP , so consumers are paying 3.00-0.20=2.80GBP for the 2%, so at the rate of 2.80/2%= 114 GBP per lb, almost 500 times the price of sugar. If u start to tell them that up to 25% of the source sugar was factory refined and was simply 100% sucrose, will they still want to pay such an on-cost for the components that provide flavour and arguably healthy additions? Why should beekeepers mind what others may be doing if they do not do it themselves? Well, the problem is that 'honey' is product name used universally around the world. The consumer tends not to differentiate as much as they should - though they are learning. Many people in UK would never touch beef they know comes from USA, as US producers are believed to use growth hormones. Similarly, some people will not touch US soya as it is GM - with the unforetunate consequence that forest is now being cleared in South America for growing GM-free soya. US beef may in fact have been cleared of hormones a long time ago, but a whole generation of beef eaters will have to die out before the prejudice disappears. That could happen to honey if beekeepers world-wide do not keep it clear of aulteration/contamination/call it what u will. Mile went on: " 1. Last I heard, sugar was still derived from plants. (Yes, I acknowledge that it's factory-processed.) Even given the legal definitions that have been cited, you have not yet convinced me that sugar-based honey is definably different from other-based honey." Well, the definations of honey used in regulations around the world appear to manage the differentiation. I am not a scientist - here are just a few comments from a 'concerned beekeeper'. I have already quoted from Eva Crane, a world authority, Honey- a comprehensive survey, 1975. It contains a wealth of information about what is in honey - but as sugar-honey cannot legally be sold as honey, not surprisingly, there does not seem to be much information on the differences. The list of sugars and of trace elements that can be in floral honey is very long - depending on the plant source. The sugars appear (if I get it right) to be manfactured by the bees from nectar that is predominently sucrose - so sugar honey is a similar mix of sugars and enzymes added by bees, but lacks traces of minerals, vitamins present in nectar. I do not myself know of serious studies into the properties of sugar-honey , hopefully others will point these out. In previous theads we have discussed the healing properties of at least some floral honeys (Manuka in particular) and the work by Dr Rose Cooper and others on the differences in anti-bacterial action between floral and sugar honey. The point is that floral and sugar honey are made thru different processes - field collection of nectar expressly produced by the nectaries of plants for collection by bees and hive-feeding of a refined chemical made by chemical processing of plant juice obtained by harvesting and smashing the complete plant. The first process is 'natural' and subject to all sorts of difficulties so is expensive but valued by consumers. The second is simple but counts as a part of industrialised food production. Mike again: 2. "Sugar is not dangerous to eat (excluding obesity risk which is not the point of the discussion). Throwing around the word "contamination" in the context of sugar in my honey strikes me as irresponsible. "Contamination" is an emotionally laden word with very strong connotations of toxicity and danger. Please find a different word." Again, this is potentially dangerously misleading. Sugar IS dangerous to eat, in quantity, because the human body is not adapted to its conversion, and diabetes can and is resulting. Honey does not cause diabetes (so I believe), as the % sucrose is tiny. Now, sugar-honey does not contain sucrose, so is also safe (so I believe). But what matters is not my belief but consumers' perceptions. While regulations world-wide state that selling sugar-honey as honey is illegal, someone clearly thinks there IS a difference. > Mike continues: "3. Feeding sugar with the INTENT to dilute or replace nectar-based honey certainly falls over the line of consumer deception, but ... 4. Trace or insignificant amounts of sugar-based honey does not automatically spoil the whole batch." Once again, Mike (a producer) is challenging what is or is not acceptable, in denial of world-wide regulations laid down for consumer protection by food standards organisations. "Trace or insignificant amounts" - how much is that? Rothamstaed found that up to 25% addition of sugar honey was not perceptible by taste. So, those who believe honey is no more than nicely-flavoured sugar may say 25% is insignificant. Does the consumer? Mike pleads: "Pure" anything is a myth. We can strive for purity. We can achieve 99.99...% of purity. But we can never achieve a guarantee of "purity". You may not feed sugar, but do you really want to set a level of consumer expectation that will put you at risk if your bees rob a little from the hive of a neighbor who does? " Oh dear, this one again. 'We cannot acheive 100% (as we all now live in a polluted environment) so there is no difference between 99% and 75%'. Well...... A recent UK survey of 155 people found levels of toxins in their bodies up to 100 times the 'safe' level. So lets all just be complacent and keep producing / eating whatever is just most conveneient. Well ............ Mike ends: " Can we move past the emotional rhetoric of absolutism and purity to a more nuanced discussion of intent and maybe thresholds?" That's a discussion u should have with the food standards organisations. Your argument that it's easier and more profitable for beekeeper to use sugar feeding to the extent that, perhaps an (unknown) bit is likely to end up in the crop, may go down well ....or not. But let's end on a positive note. There is absolutely nothing wrong (so far as I know) with sugar-honey as a food. It just has to be sold as such - and priced honestly and fairly. It is easy and reliable to produce. It could be a mainstay for beekeepers in areas with irregular forage. An enormous market could exist in say sports drinks - althletes recover faster with drinks made from honey than sucrose. Althletes panting by the roadside are not interested in the fine flavour of a speciality honey - nor particularly are children tired after school. A whole host of vitaminised or medicinal sugar-honeys are possible. Naum Iolrish, Bees and People, Mir Publishers Moscow, 1974 listed Russian experiments with: egg/milk/rosehip syrup (milk honey has a whitish yellow colour and tastes of fruit drops - when I tried it, I got a horrid mess in the combs), calcium cloride for calcium honey, foxglove for medicinal digitalis honey. Carrot juice honey was No. 59, to give an idea of the list. Does anyone know if the Russians contnue to produce a range of sugar-honies? Eva Crane's reference to sugar-honey being legal for sale in France suggests an industry. Unforetunately I can find nothing in just the three French manuals I have. Can anyone illuminate the situation in France? How is sugar-honey priced alongside floral honey? Robin dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:01:18 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi All, Well, I haven't written on this list for a while. On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Murray McGregor wrote: > We have a major value honey crop, heather, in August here which has > returns proportional to bee power. The more bees of the correct type and > age, the more honey. To maximise exploitation of this harvest we take > away the excluders 5 to 6 weeks ahead of the onset of the flow (the flow > itself is in a window about 4 weeks long), and allow the queen > unrestricted laying area. This provides a large wave of young bees for > the middle and late part of the flow in August. I just read this and thought I'd expand on it a little for those without heather. Heather yields quite late in the season here and usually in areas that are fairly high by UK standards. Although the bees like the forage, they're often working in quite cool conditions, so are preparing themselves for winter. Their behaviour in these circumstances is, generally, to store the honey in the brood nest, however we as beekeepers want it in the supers. In the UK most of us use Queen excluders to keep brood nest and crop apart. But in the cool and often damp conditions on the heather moors, leaving in the QX is akin to shutting the bees out of the supers. In these cool conditions, they just don't like going past the wire. I've heard many people call Queen excluders "honey excluders". Mostly I don't agree, but on heather I most certainly do. ATB, Gordon -- Gordon Scott http://www.gscott.co.uk Linux ... Because I like to *get* there today. Hey, I'm looking for a new job! See -> http://www.gscott.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Winter Wrap In-Reply-To: <000b01c3b9e3$a881cee0$4ea59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:23 PM 12/3/2003, you wrote: >Arthur Young's question from 1996: > >Honey Production: >"An old bee book I have says that per colony honey crops average 235 lbs. in >1909, and the figure is 250 lbs. for 1916. >Our average now is about 60 lbs. What was Arthur Young's quote based on? Observation from a particular geographical region? probably. I doubt it truly represents the average over the entire world (or even just the us). Those numbers may have just been two good years in a good location. It it taking in account hives that get moved to take advantage of multiple good flows, or just those left in the same location all year long? Does it only count production hives, or all hives (new splits and swarms, etc.) What did they use for their harvesting methods? I know I could get another 40-80lbs per hive if I harvested everything and fed the bees. Without knowing the basis for Young's numbers it's impossible to compare them to my situation (or any one else's). Some areas do produce in the 200+ range, but I know that certainly isn't true for my area (even though occasionally you will get a strong hive or two that will pack a 200lb surplus) -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:22:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a reminder, the beekeepers of Jackson County will be having a meeting this Saturday at 10:30am with guest speaker George Clutter of the State Department of Agriculture Apiary program. ANYBODY interested in beekeeping in any way shape or form is welcome to attend. This invitation is open to anyone including Extension office personnel, FFA/FHA, 4H in Jackson, Roane & Wood County. Meeting will be at the Jackson County Junior Fair Grounds in the McDonald Building. Saturday, December 6th 2003, @ 10:30am Russ Dean Jackson County Beekeepers :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:24:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Caste Determination in Queens In-Reply-To: <200312030500.hB33KGIv022599@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 07:55:00 -0500 >From: James Fischer >Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size > >Robin said: > > > According to Snodgrass, Weaver in 1955 fed larvae > > unlimited brood food but failed to produce queens. > >Is the most recent work in that area as old as 1955? There is newer work on this. My mentor Al Dietz did some: AUTHOR: Dietz, A. ARTICLE TITLE: The Influence Of Environmental And Nutritional Factors On Growth And Caste Determination Of Female Honey Bees. JOURNAL TITLE: Diss. Abs., Sect. B. 27(12) Pt.1:4599-4600 YEAR OF PUBLICATION: 1967 NOTES: KEYWORDS: Development Metamorphosis Methods Caste AUTHOR: Dietz, A.; Lambremont, E. N. ARTICLE TITLE: Caste Determination In Honey Bees. II. Food Consumption Of Individual Honey Bee Larvae, Determined With 32p-Labeled Royal Jelly. JOURNAL TITLE: Ann. Ent. Soc. Amer. 63(5):1342-1345, Tables, Refs. YEAR OF PUBLICATION: 1970 NOTES: 'Newly Emerged Honey Bee Larvae Apis mellifera L. (Hymenoptera; Apidae), Were Reared In The Laboratory On 32p-Labeled Royal Jelly. The Resulting Adults Were Classified As Workers, Intermediates, Or Queens, Depending On Their Morphological Caste Characters. Larvae Destined To Become Queens Ate 13% More Food Than Worker Larvae During The First 3 Days Of Larval Life. This Difference Increased To About 40, After 6 Days Of Larval Life. The Mean Rate Of Ingestion Was 8% Less In Intermediates As Compared To Queen Larvae During The First 3 Days After Hatching, And 16% Less After 6 Days Of Larval Life. Queen Larvae Consumed An Average Of 5% More Royal Jelly Than Intermediates, And 19% More Than Workers. The Results Are Discussed In Relation To The Known Differences In Growth Rates Of The Queen-Worker Castes.' Part I Appears In International Apiculture Congress, Proc., College Park, 21:470; 1967. KEYWORDS: Larva Behavior Food and so did Yaacov Lensky. His work had to do with sugars in the food and hormonal balance as we now know about the various kinds of juvenile hormone and the relationship between them and the adult hormone, ecdysone. Contemporary work is going on by Anna Rachinsky: http://www.d.umn.edu/~lshannon/Biology_2002/faculty/Rachinsky_page.htm In highly eusocial Hymenoptera such as the honeybee Apis mellifera, we find two specialized morphs - or castes - within the female sex: queen and worker. There is no genetic difference involved in caste determination. The developmental pathway of a female larva is determined solely by the composition of the diet that is provided during critical stages of development. The differences in diet affect the endocrine system of a honeybee larva, resulting in caste-specific differences in hormone titers, which then trigger caste-specific differentiation of target tissues. Juvenile hormone (JH) has been identified as the prime endogenous signal for the induction of queen development in honeybees. I am interested in several aspects of JH biosynthesis regulation and in effects that JH has on caste-specific tissue differentiation. You can also see references at the bee biology bibliography by searching for caste determination. Malcolm T. Sanford Professor Emeritus, University of Florida http://beeactor.vze.com 352-336-9744 or 392-1801 x 150 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:33:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: re-using plastic foundation I have been using 5-frame nucs to draw foundation. By staking the boxes with foundation (plastic or wax) over strong 5 frame nucs and with heavy feeding you will be amazed how quickly the frames are drawn.Multiple nucs, rotation of the frames and continueal feeding will generate quanities of newly drawn frames for replacement, new hives, or additional nucs. I use top feeders that are kept full at all times. I believe that the confined space is just right for the bees to work upward in an attempt to expand their nest. Frank Wyatt Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:38:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Stay focused! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm just chiming in to remind folks to keep focused on "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology". Honey/Sugar/Diabetes is straying off topic. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:13:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Sugar Honey (was re-using plastic foundation) In-Reply-To: <002601c3ba5a$b672b6a0$703e74d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: >Mike again: 2. "Sugar is not dangerous to eat (excluding obesity risk which >is not the point of the discussion). Throwing around the word >"contamination" in the context of sugar in my honey strikes me as >irresponsible. "Contamination" is an emotionally laden word with very >strong connotations of toxicity and danger. Please find a different word." > >Again, this is potentially dangerously misleading. Sugar IS dangerous to >eat, in quantity, because the human body is not adapted to its conversion, >and diabetes can and is resulting. > Let us be specific - the consumption of sugar does not cause diabetes. This is an old wives tale. Massive over-consumption of calories (of which sugar is often a significant componant - though not the only one) and a reduction of caloric expendatures (mordern living for the average American) can lead to obesity. Obesity can lead, especially in those genetically predisposed, to NID diabetes. The simple act of eating sucrose does not. Moderation, it is all about moderation. Sucrose is not evil. If you eat to many calories from eating honey - you run the same risk. Why is sugar singled out? Two reasons - big companiues own sugar factories, and make easy targets for the disenchanted. More importantly - it is everywhere, and in everything, at least in the US. (OK everwhere and everything are absolutes - but it is remarkably abundant) You have to try really hard to avoid the stuff. If honey replaced it at the same levels of consumption on a per calorie basis - nothing would change in terms of diabetes and obesity. Type the following into Google.com "does eating sugar cause diabetes" There is a plethera of websites that will fill you in o the details - and I am not talking about the websites of the sugar industry. > Honey does not cause diabetes (so I >believe), as the % sucrose is tiny. > The fact that honey does not cause diabetes has little if anything to do with the % of sucrose contained within. > But what matters is not my belief >but consumers' perceptions. > Bingo - and I agree - the instant honey is perceived by the general consumer as no longer a special product and simply seem as just another sweetener (which I do not necessarily disagree with) with interesting floral and regional differences, they will expect it to be priced more in line with other sweeteners, i.e. lower. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:11:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: Honey Production - Back When MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: Honey Production: "An old bee book I have says that per colony honey crops average 235 lbs. in 1909, and the figure is 250 lbs. for 1916. Our average now is about 60 lbs. Comments? Have you considered how the foraging areas and sources have changed? Mike, located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:20:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: Sugar Sourced Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Grey wrote: What do u do with a super that is full of sugar honey if u do not extract it? Wasn't the purpose of feeding to draw the combs so u could get empty combs ready for the flow - so they sure have to be emptied first! Uncap the sugar sourced honey in the early spring, place the frames full of the sugar honey above the brood nest of nucs or newly installed package bees and let them empty the comb to feed and build down below in the brood nest. Of course, you would want to use source material from hives that are free of transmittable diseases such as foul brood. Put the cappings above the inner cover to be recovered by the bees also. Mike, located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:31:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Sugar Honey (was re-using plastic foundation) In-Reply-To: <20031204013407.45497.qmail@web41608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > First, my qualifier. I am a hobbyist, not a > producer. So am I. > you have not yet > convinced me that sugar-based honey is definably > different from other-based honey. The difference seems huge to me: the difference between a first quality product and a looks-like-honey product. I can easely differenciate tastes between "sugar-honey" and honeys in a blind test in spite of the 25% sugar-honey proportion without tasting impact R. Darington refered. Honeys flavours, I would say parfums in my language, mostly come from aromatic acids in nectar. Sugar honey is just sweet. I produce my own honey only for a rare taste (I mean uncommon on the market of blended honeys and so-called floral honeys). Here is most of the difference for me. > 2. Sugar is not dangerous to eat (excluding obesity > risk which is not the point of the discussion). For once, the debate deals with honeys quality instead of honey safety. Let us stick with honey quality, thus with taste although those two separated concepts have been merged by major food industries. > 4. Trace or insignificant amounts of sugar does not automatically spoil the whole batch. Imagine a famous vine maker saying " Trace or insignificant amounts of apple juice does not automatically spoil the whole batch of my vine". Would you pay top price for such product ? You may like it, taste is more a question of culture, I would say of "taste education", but you probably would not accept to pay the same price as for a famous great vine, would you ? > "Pure" anything is a myth. We can strive for > purity. We can achieve 99.99...% of purity. But we > can never achieve a guarantee of "purity". Anectodic incidents are not a justification for lowering working methodologies. In the spring, as part of my quality program, I extract any "winter honey" I can, just at the beginning of dandelion blooming, in order to obtain the best floral honey I can. The "winter honey" is used at home for cakes, tea, jams, etc. I can easely make the difference although I let some honey to my bees for wintering. I use only 5 to 10 kg of dry sugar (in solution of course) per hive. I can easely compare those two products, and yes, honey sugar tastes like some (bad or medium) honey I eated in the past. It aslo granulates the same way. It just mean the honey I bought from a local beekeeper at that time was a low quality product. Hervé Le Rucher d'Émélys www.emelys.com Canada - Québec ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Avec Yahoo! soyez au coeur de la récolte de dons pour le Téléthon. http://fr.promotions.yahoo.com/caritatif/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Honey Production - Back When Quoted from the following url on bee health: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9007&L=bee-l&P=R83 Mr. Nachbaur describes two major constraints to successful beekeeping in the 1990s. These are finding *high quality bee pasture and renewing colonies that die for whatever reason* [Yoon's empahsis]. Actually, it turns out the second constraint is also very much related to the first. That is, Mr. Nachbaur says, "The ability of beekeepers to renew or replace colonies that die out, or become so poor as to be a liability, is a serious problem that can be met by applying rule number one: keep your bees on high quality pasture." Failing this, Mr. Nachbaur says that dramatic loss of colonies, such as those experienced by California beekeepers in 1987-88, will continue. In addition, there may be even more frequent unexplained losses causing SAD and BAD bees in the future. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:29:09 -0600 Reply-To: davehamilton@alltel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DaveHamilton Subject: Honey clean up and what to do with it In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031204105800.05a4b9f0@pop.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK .. This is not as scientific as some other discussions here but I had a pail of honey crack in the melter and 60 lbs went on to the carpet .. After several shampooing its still sticky .. Any "experienced" ideas? Also I might as well feed the honey I scraped up back to the bees .. How do you feed it back? Dave --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.545 / Virus Database: 339 - Release Date: 11/27/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:18:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sugar Honey In-Reply-To: <20031204193111.7074.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hervé Logé wrote: > I can easely compare > those two products, and yes, honey sugar tastes like > some (bad or medium) honey I eated in the past. It > aslo granulates the same way. It just mean the honey I > bought from a local beekeeper at that time was a low > quality product. The glucose content of honey is the main factor in granulation, so a high sucrose honey would be less prone to granulation. If it granulates the same way, it could be from several factors- 1. other nectars (especially if in fall feed and extracted with fall honey) 2. thin syrup so the glucose content would be higher as more time creates more glucose (more likely with spring feeding and thiner syrup). Back to the mess I started. The prime difference between sugar syrup "honey" and natural honey is in all the other things that give Honey its character. From a purely chemical basis, sugar syrup "honey" has the same basic mix of sugars and acids that nectar honey has since it is the bee that converts both nectar and sugar syrup. But from that point on the paths are much different. Every honey is different depending on its source. It has different colors, flavors, even "thickness" (moisture content). It also has minerals and other sugars (some good and some bad). You could look at sugar syrup "honey" as the foundation of a gravy a cook prepares. The basics are flour, liquid and oil and are found in most all gravys. If you stopped there you would lose customers. It is the drippings, type of oil, herbs and spices that are added that give the gravy its heart. Bill Truesdell (still penitent) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:26:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sugar Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gosh Bill Truesdale, DON'T start another debate about GRAVY. By the way, I liked your remarks about sugar honey, and thought most of the criticisms would find fault with Christmas, the bi-cameral system of voting, neutering pets, or the best taste of pizza. HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL! George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:46:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathleen Darrell Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 09:01 AM, Gordon Scott wrote : > Their behaviour in these circumstances is, > generally, to store the honey in the brood nest, however we as > beekeepers want it in the supers. In the UK most of us use Queen > excluders to keep brood nest and crop apart. > Hi all, This year I converted my colonies to single brood chambers. No problems with swarming nor honey in the brood chamber plugging it up for the queen. All the honey was stored above the queen excluder. The brood nest was amazing, wall to wall and top to bottom with brood at all stages. My first concern was that the queen would run out of room. The fellow that convinced me to try it did a calculation for me. With 5.2 mm cell size there would be more than 3600 cells per frame side, or 64800 in 9 frames. At 2000 eggs per day it would take the queen 32 days to lay every cell, but 2000 bees emerge on the 21st day. Taking this into consideration, why 5 deeps for brood rearing in heather honey production? I am a small beekeeper(4 colonies this year) producing 980 lbs of liquid and comb honey combined, with the best colony at 350 lbs and the lowest 200 lbs. Does anyone have comments on single brood chambers(pro or con)? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 02:53:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Sugar Honey In-Reply-To: <3FCFA49F.8050309@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The glucose content of honey is the main factor in > granulation, so a > high sucrose honey would be less prone to > granulation. I disagree on this point. Precisely, the book's author I have here disagrees. Quotes are my free translations : "The higher the ratio fructose/glucose, the slower the granulation. Theorically, honey remains liquide when the ratio fructose/glucose is higer than 1.3" from Être performant en apiculture, Hubert Guerriat, 2000 - p.363 So I understand that honeys with higher glucose content granulates faster. There are several other facors influencing granulation as far as I understand what I read. Another one linked to glucose content is the ratio glucose/water. "Generally, honey is likely to granulate when the ratio glucose/water increases. Honey does not granulate under a ratio G/W of 1.6, and when this ratio is higher than 2.2 it always granulates fast". Same book, p.362 So, same conclusion. I repeat I understand ther are other factors. But it seems to me that glucose content increase leads to faster granulation. And saccharose is broken down by bees enzyms into glucose and fructose, if I am not mistaken. Then, in a pure sugar honey, the ratio fructose/glucose should be 1. So, sugar honey is more likely to granulate, isn't it ? By the way, although "sugars" content in nectar varies from flowers to flowers (and temperature, and soils, and so on), it remains that fructose is predominent in nectar. The reference I have gives a fructose content average in honey of 38% and 31% for glucose which means an average ratio of 1.2 (instead of 1 "theoric" for sugar honey). I can look for more refrences but I guess the concluion will remain. > 2. thin syrup so the glucose content would be higher > as more time > creates more glucose (more likely with spring > feeding and thiner syrup). I do not understand this one. May be to tired, my english translator is off. > > Back to the mess I started. The prime difference > between sugar syrup > "honey" and natural honey is in all the other things > that give Honey its > character. That is was I was writing when mentioning flavours, "parfums", aromatic acids and taste. Sugar syrup dilutes molecules responsible for the taste. So you obtain a less tasty product... IMHO of course. I like harvesting floral honeys. I like tasting them, changing of toast tastes each morning. I would not be interesting in harvesting a non-tasty standard product as honey sugar. Hervé ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:10:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bo Darrell said: >This year I converted my colonies to single brood chambers. No >problems with swarming nor honey in the brood chamber plugging it up for the queen. Running a hive in a single brood box in spring and through the honey flow is not uncommon. Running year around in a single box can be a problem as without supers on the bees WILL plug the brood chamber if a unexpected flow happens. > All the honey was stored above the queen excluder. And usually is IF you give the bees plenty of room to store surplus honey. If not in the brood nest the honey goes. > The brood nest was amazing, wall to wall and top to bottom with brood at all stages. I have had two queen hives with around four deeps "wall to wall" brood. Single queen with two deeps of wall to wall brood (but not an easy feat to accomplish). > My first concern was that the queen would run out of room. Not a problem if you do the math and start your hive/nuc with X amount of frames of brood X amount of days before the main flow starts. >The fellow that convinced me to try it did a calculation for me. With 5.2 mm cell size there would be more than 3600 cells per frame side, or 64800 in 9 frames. At 2000 eggs per day it would take the queen 32 days to lay every cell, but 2000 bees emerge on the 21st day. The problem with your calculations is that the bees will use a certain amount of cells in the brood nest for bee bread. No two hives are the same but usually a arch is around the top with brood in the center. There are a few tricks to force the brood chamber full of brood only but they will only work for awhile. >Taking this into consideration, why 5 deeps for brood rearing in heather honey production? Murray confines the queen in a box or two then removes the excluder giving the queen free rain of the five boxes which are also to store the honey in. Murray does not winter in five deep boxes. I believe I have got Murray's methods correct but I am sure he will correct me if wrong. Grandpa used to keep bees in four or five deeps and simply pull honey combs from any one of the four or five boxes. I believe Dee Lusby still uses Grandpa's methods but if one uses chemicals of any kind Grandpa's methods would not work today > I am a small beekeeper(4 colonies this year) producing 980 lbs of liquid and comb honey combined, with the best colony at 350 lbs and the lowest 200 lbs. Wow ! That's a 245 lb. average from four hives in single brood chambers. Well done! However undocumented I consider large honey crops like I do "big fish stories" but congradulations anyway! Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:07:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...producing 980 lbs of liquid and comb honey combined, with the > best colony at 350 lbs and the lowest 200 lbs. Does anyone have > comments on single brood chambers(pro or con)? I imagine Robin will want to know how much sugar you fed. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:20:59 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) In-Reply-To: <002901c3badd$664f07e0$0fa59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <002901c3badd$664f07e0$0fa59bd0@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >>Taking this into consideration, why 5 deeps for brood rearing in >heather honey production? > >Murray confines the queen in a box or two then removes the excluder giving >the queen free rain of the five boxes which are also to store the honey in. >Murray does not winter in five deep boxes. >I believe I have got Murray's methods correct but I am sure he will correct >me if wrong. OK. To avoid further confusion, Bob is comfortably nearest the mark here. We run our bees one singles for most of the season, rotating broodnests, splitting, equalising, requeening etc etc as needed. Above the nest there is an excluder, and all the rest of the boxes are above that, including honey supers and brood nests placed there to hatch out. (This is the local version of Demaree, where, once the nest is approaching capacity, you raise it to the top of the hive, and put the queen back on the floor in a fresh nest, under the excluder, with just one bar of eggs for company. Prevents swarming preparations for 18 to 21 days before it needs repeating. Our US cousins will laugh at the work levels, but with black bees everything is different.) So, although the queen is confined in a single, it is not a cramping system we use, just one where the management of a swarmy strain is easier to control. Free rein management produces larger crops....of huge swarms. Swarming generally tails off in early July around here, and we pre-empt that by ending the invasive management phase a little before that and taking away the space constraint on the queen. We do NOT give 5 deeps for brood rearing, rather decide on merit how much space each colony need prior to the heather migration, and give it that much. A modest colony probably goes up as a double, strong ones as a triple, rarely as a four high. But that is unrestricted space, for all purposes. At the heather we visit weekly to see how much space (if any) needs to be added. This is when we reach 4, 5, even 6 boxes high (deeps). Using shallows or mediums makes for even more, and a friend of mine had lots on 3 deeps and 6 shallows this year, far better than me (I had 50% of my hives in an area affected badly by dry conditions). 4 would be more normal, and this will include all the honey. I would NEVER expect to see 5 boxes used for brood. A lot in the bottom box, perhaps 6 or 7 bars with substantial amounts of brood in the second box, and possibly a few patches in the third, would be the most I would expect. If you see substantial amounts of brood in the third box or higher they have probably little or nothing in the bottom. My remark about the 5 box colony was simply that I could dream of the amount of foragers that would give me at the heather and fantasise about the potential crop from such a monster. My original comment was nothing more than a ....'WOW, I WISH!'...kind of moment, with little reflection in the practical situation I live in. As the bees fill in they force the queen down to the bottom box, sometimes the bottom two, and we rearrange things so that we get her all down into one box for winter, bring them home from the mountains then feed for winter. So no 5 box colonies into winter. the occasional double, but not many, all the rest on singles. Hope this clarifies things a bit, but might just bring more questions. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:07:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bernard SAUBOT Subject: Sugar Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The information given in the last days that "sugar honey" could be = legally sold in France is absolutely wrong . In that matter, the french legislation is following 100% the text of the = Codex Alimentarius : honey is nothing but the natural substance = elaborated by the bees -Apis mellifera - with plant nectar etc..; Then, you can of course make and sell that "sugar honey", but without = using at all the word "honey" . Tremendous rains in Provence and Rh=F4ne valley this week . Six people = died, and so many hives ... Bernard SAUBOT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:07:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Honey Production - Back When I just love average production quotes. In our valley in South Africa there were 15 farms producing export table grapes. They got ripe in November bringing a huge premium, and everyone would go on and on about their "average production". For some people this would be the total number of boxes of grapes sold divided by the total number of acres that were in prodution. For others, it was the total number of boxes divided by their best 10 grape vines... So when I see rounded numbers like 235 pounds, to me that is a red flag. When you think about all the people who produced 25 to 50 pounds, there must have been a whole lots of folks who regularly got 500 pounds per hive, but I'll want to see detailed stats before I'll do anything but write off the 235 figure. It is well known that 94.7 percent of statistics are just made up. :-) As to foraging areas, I would say on the whole there probably isn't much difference between now and 100 years ago. In my area of California we now have eucalyptus which people who are familiar with this area can attest, can give you a shallow super every two weeks in Jan. and Feb. where we didn't have any before. And the sage crop, while diminished by developement, was never even used to anywhere near full capacity. Even now there are thousands of acres of sage pasture without a hive in site. And due to the irrigation of gardens and all the old trees and hedges, the hive I keep in my backyard in town produces so much more than the hives I have in "wilderness" that you can't compare them at all. Sure, you have to subtract parking lots, big cities, etc.. but when you factor in greater access to forage due to roads and things like that, I wouldn't be suprised if total accessable forage hasn't increased. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:04:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Drawing Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Wyatt described his feeding methods, and I have some questions: 1. "continueal feeding will generate quanities of newly drawn frames for replacement, new hives, or additional nucs" APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY FRAMES CAN YOU HAVE A NUC DRAW WITH THESE METHODS? 2. "I use top feeders that are kept full at all times." ARE THESE HOMEMADE OR HAVE YOU FOUND A GOOD SOURCE FOR TOP FEEDERS TO FIT 5 FRAME NUCS? ARE YOU PERHAPS USING STANDARD TOP FEEDERS OVER A DEEP THAT IS DIVIDED TO HOLD TWO 5-FRAME NUCS? 3. "I believe that the confined space is just right for the bees to work upward in an attempt to expand their nest." LITTLE TO NO DIFFICULTY WITH SWARMING? I ask because I know someone who says that he creates two queen hives by using two divided deeps with an excluder above, and then uses these to draw 50-60 deep frames above the excluder. He uses a full size Miller-type feeder on top of the frames to be drawn and also creates a top entrance just above the excluder. The workers from the two hives 'mingle' above the excluder. He also says that using two-queen hives such as these (without the feeder) are best way he knows of to produce large quantities of comb honey from a short flow. He says he will often get 5-6 Ross Round supers filled and has got as many as a dozen! I am looking forward to Frank's further response. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:16:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sugar Honey In-Reply-To: <20031205015315.60877.qmail@web20812.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hervé Logé wrote: > > The glucose content of honey is the main factor in > >>granulation, so a >>high sucrose honey would be less prone to >>granulation. > > > I disagree on this point. Precisely, the book's author > I have here disagrees. Quotes are my free translations > : > "The higher the ratio fructose/glucose, the slower the > granulation. Theorically, honey remains liquide when > the ratio fructose/glucose is higer than 1.3" > from Être performant en apiculture, Hubert Guerriat, > 2000 - p.363 > > So I understand that honeys with higher glucose > content granulates faster. We are saying the same thing but using different measurements and references. The Hive and the Honey bee uses glucose concentrations as the measure of granulation. It is the excess glucose that precipitates out and forms a lattice-work that traps the other sugars and is the state we call crystallized honey. Nectars can be a combination of sugars and concentrations. If we start with pure sucrose the bees will add enzymes which invert a portion of the sucrose to glucose and fructose. If the nectar concentration is high, the conversion will be less than if low. The ratio of fructose to glucose will be the same for pure sucrose as a starting point, but the amount of glucose will not, depending on the starting concentration. So glucose concentration will be a better measure of granulation speed. The fructose/glucose ratio will be constant with sugary syrup as a starting point. However, you will get different glucose concentrations as a part of the whole, depending on the starting concentration of the sugar syrup. A high moisture content honey will still have inversion taking place so you will end up with a higher glucose content and, faster granulation. (Which is also in agreement with your post.) To get a different fructose/glucose ratio you need to start with a different combination of sugars, not pure sucrose. A low fructose/glucose ratio nectar will granulate faster (as you noted) since you start with a higher glucose concentration. Using the fructose/glucose ratio to evaluate different nectars gives a good comparative measure of speed of granulation. High glucose gives a lower ratio and the lower the ratio the faster the granulation. (The sucrose level will have little effect, since it inverts at a constant ratio. However, concentration of the nectar will have an effect since it will change the amount of glucose - which again agrees with your post.) So we agree with what happens and that it is directly tied to glucose concentrations. You use the fructose/glucose ratio (which is a measure of the starting glucose level therefore a good indicator of nectars which granulate faster) and I am using the glucose level as a part of the sucrose, fructose, glucose combination. Bill Truesdell (who hopes I have not added to the confusion) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:43:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Honey Production - Back When MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim and all, I hope you have lots of red flags! I worked for a beekeeper in Western Canada and one year he had an average of 380lbs. per hive with 1500 hives. It was very easy to calculate - in one corner of the warehouse were the empty packages (2 lb. ) and in the rest of the warehouse were all the full barrels (of 100% honey). It was a two queen system. Does that make it 190lbs. per queen? Peter Now living in Eastern Canada and dreaming about a 380 pound average ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Vaughan" To: Sent: December 5, 2003 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Honey Production - Back When > > So when I see rounded numbers like 235 pounds, to me that is a red flag. > When you think about all the people who produced 25 to 50 pounds, there > must have been a whole lots of folks who regularly got 500 pounds per > hive, but I'll want to see detailed stats before I'll do anything but > write off the 235 figure. It is well known that 94.7 percent of statistics > are just made up. :-) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:34:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Litherland Subject: Re: Sugar Honey In-Reply-To: <3FCFA49F.8050309@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > You could look at sugar syrup "honey" as the foundation of a gravy a > cook prepares. The basics are flour, liquid and oil and are found in > most all gravys. If you stopped there you would lose customers. It is > the drippings, type of oil, herbs and spices that are added that give > the gravy its heart. > > Bill Truesdell (still penitent) > Bath, Maine And your analogy for the gravy lumps would be??? :) Your gravy analogy triggered a thought - since a popular honey product is flavored honey sticks, wouldn't sugar honey lend itself perfectly to this application? AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:59:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Waldemar Galka Subject: Re: Sugar Honey (was re-using plastic foundation) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Honey for sale should only have floral or honey dew origin. There are things we cannot control such as bees coming across a discarded bottle of sugar-laden Coke or other sweet human junk but a beekeeper should not extract & sell sugar honey. If I can speculate that SOME beekeepers engage in this wrong practice, I will not buy honey from ANY beekeepers unless they can PROVE their honey does not have sugar syrup. Bees do move their stores around in the hive as they expand their nest. Nevertheless, no one should feed sugar syrup once the supers go on. I do not believe that anyone who breaks this rule will extract the sugar honey to discard or feed to other colonies! Be patient and draw your super frames on a strong honey flow. You will get better drawn frames in no time. Waldemar Long Island, NY PS. If you state from the outset that some sugar honey is ok, then where do you draw the line at 1% or 99%? You are going to turn honey customers off. ==================================================== 3. Feeding sugar with the INTENT to dilute or replace nectar-based honey certainly falls over the line of consumer deception, but ... 4. Trace or insignificant amounts of sugar-based honey does not automatically spoil the whole batch. (Please do not use the strawman that this argument means that trace amounts of miticides are therefore acceptable. See 2 above - sugar is not toxic.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:45:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray said: (This is the local version of Demaree, where, once the nest is approaching capacity, you raise it to the top of the hive, and put the queen back on the floor in a fresh nest, under the excluder, with just one bar of eggs for company. Prevents swarming preparations for 18 to 21 days before it needs repeating. I used the above method for years but moved away from the method when I put the first Apistan strip in. I use no deep for honey production which has been treated with a chemical but I am sure many still do. Completely removing the filled brood chamber from the queen is a way to get egg production up and prevent swarming. The method I use now is similar to the method Bob D. explained but with two brood chambers. Because of the scale I am on I need the two brood boxes for management reasons. Murray gives good advice and if Bob D. finds the lower brood area plugged before the main flow next year he might consider moving a few frames of brood up (or out) to prevent swarming. Murray said: Our US cousins will laugh at the work levels, but with black bees everything is different.) Many U.S. beekeepers laugh at the amount of labor involved in the methods I use (or talk about me behind my back!) It has been my experience that those which put the most effort into beekeeping reap the most rewards. Even a beekeeper with poor management skills can be successful if he/she puts in the hours to work the bees. You can not know what is going on in those hives from your easy chair with a TV remote in your hand. Many large beekeepers play a guessing game (Bob talking about his friends behind their back now!). Ok UNTIL they guess wrong. I like to check a few yards before making a large scale move such as feeding, reversing, changing locations, MEDICATING, splitting, equalizing etc. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:48:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J" Subject: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Boy, I really miss Andy at times like this. He had a way of addressing the debates and making the points that were always great regardless on which side of the issue you weighted in on. I really wanted to hold back on this one but my medication must have worn off. :-) Statements of point: 1) If anyone is knowingly feeding huge amounts of sugar with the idea of harvesting it and marketing it as Honey; they are WRONG no matter how you look at it. 2) If sugar, corn syrup, or anything else is intentionally added to honey, that is criminal! 3) Using the word contamination to refer to honey that may have a trace amount of "sugar honey" is also VERY Wrong. If this discussion somehow made its way from this list to the media, something would start that none of us would benefit from. 4) Anyone claiming to have 100% pure honey only obtained from flower nectar that has their bees anywhere within a few miles of human existence is misleading. Using this fact in the "my honey is better than your honey" argument is again very wrong. (Those of you living in the mountains or deserts, don't get too smug, just yet.) I doubt if anyone has issues with 1 or 2 so I will only expand on the rest. Contamination in a true definition would indicate anything in a product that does not belong there. However in today's society contamination usually refers to something that is HARMFUL and does not belong there. This could be chemical, bacteriological, or any other nasty thing you can think of. When you start using the "C" word you may end up down a path that you really don't want to be. A few years back we were traveling along Interstate 95 through the state of Maryland. We stopped at a rest area and I noticed a trash can with a large number of honeybees coming and going. At first I thought a swarm had taken residence but quickly realized they were working the "nectar source" that included Coke and Pepsi (why they would choose Pepsi is beyond me), Snapple, Very Fine fruit juice, a piece of watermelon and some other items. I thought because of where I was these may have been some of George Imire's bees but then thought otherwise when I saw them on the Pepsi. My point is if the keeper of these bees never fed them sugar can he/she still claim 100%. I seriously think not. O'l Andy referenced many times the strange things bees would bring back to a colony. Feeding sugar, too keep bees alive in a dearth, getting them started in Spring, or to draw some comb is not a bad practice and should not be constantly challenged as poor beekeeping. If a small amount of this "man made" honey gets into the beekeeper's final product it would have to be a such a trace amount, probably equivalent to the garbage can bees, that even discussing it is ridiculous. We have too many important issues to improve beekeeping, so why should we be attacking each other? I have followed this list for many years. I have learned that when someone puts forth a statement that is incorrect or just plain bad, a number of folks, who are well respected members of the list, will be quick to point out the error. Other topics that seem to go on and on usually do not find our "List Elders" wasting too much time commenting, other than to get things back on track. Lets get back to good bee and beekeeping discussions. One last comment on point 4. Those living in remote areas and claiming a higher standard of honey, a few final thoughts. You are very lucky not to have to deal with pollution, pesticides, etc. But........ A fellow beekeeper of mine had some colonies in his backyard. He also had a dog pen with two dogs; a Husky and a Labrador Retriever. Every morning the Husky would pee on the fence and few minutes later the bees would bee there. Surprisingly they ignored the Lab. We nicknamed his product "Husky Honey", which took a blue ribbon at the State Ag show. My point here is that even remote locations have potential for bees frequenting areas that we would not want to share with consumers. Take care and enjoy the upcoming holiday season. Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:25:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Rewaxing Plastic Foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/3/2003 5:44:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, steppler@CICI.MB.CA writes: That is all you really have to do. All you need is the smell of wax to attract the bees to the sheet. The last warm day we had here had the bees flying.......right to the honey house...it looked like a swarm at the front door....I have been making christmas candles. There were several hundred candles and just as many bees. LOL Kathy Cox, Northern California, Italian, 17 hives :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:45:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Sugar Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi George: In reference to your comments: >.....DON'T start another debate about GRAVY >......or the best taste of pizza. Is the tryptophan that many consumed last week the cause of all this? Doing a Google search using the terms ‘honey pizza’ and ‘honey gravy’ brings up some info for you cooks out there in cyberland. Interestingly, many of the honey gravy recipes are for turkey dishes. What a coincidence, huh? A few years back an old-timer here in Anchorage fed his bees sugar syrup mixed with orange juice to produce ‘orange juice honey’. This next spring, of course, we will probably again be receiving Bee-L posts from people asking about using maple sap to produce ‘maple syrup honey’. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:56:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/5/03 4:43:03 PM GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: > I used the above method for years but moved away from the method when I put > the first Apistan strip in. I use no deep for honey production which has > been treated with a chemical but I am sure many still do. Completely > removing the filled brood chamber from the queen is a way to get egg > production up and prevent swarming. > The way round that problem Bob is simply to rotate them. By the time it is needing done again most of the brood in the old nest has hatched, leaving primarily drones to emerge. Especially vigourous strains might need three boxes, one in use by the queen, and two at various stages of hatching out. If a flow comes on they can fill them in remarkably quickly though so your avoidance of extracting from any combs exposed to Apistan could prove difficult at times. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 18:05:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) To Bob and Murray. About what percentage of the time would you guess that the bees make a new queen above the queen excluder and you end up with a two queen hive using the method that Murray now uses, and Bob used to? Thanks much. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 18:51:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/12/03 05:03:50 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > . Does anyone have comments on > single brood chambers(pro or con)? > It avoids beekeeper's back. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 20:08:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim asks: About what percentage of the time would you guess that the bees make a new queen above the queen excluder and you end up with a two queen hive using the method that Murray now uses, and Bob used to? If you move eggs up also and put the old brood nest a full deep above the excluder many times queen cells are indeed made. More so if you do not regularly replace your queens and have got old queens with low pheromone levels. I tried to only bring up sealed brood about to emerge and not the whole box as Murray did so I had a small instance of rearing queens above. When I did simply bring the whole box up I suppose 20 to 50% made queen cells. If you did not return in time to cut cells then the first virgin killed her sisters and usually you would find an unmated virgin trapped above the excluder along with any drones moved up on the brood comb. If you waited very long you would find dead drones and a dead virgin above the excluder . An opening to the outside changes the scenario and you get a laying queen up but she is of little use because her offspring emerge to late in our area to provide help with the major honey flow. The object is not in my opinion to raise a new queen or even have two queens laying at once but to prevent swarming and open up the brood nest to encourage the queen to lay a higher percentage of eggs per day. You can however raise a new queen with the method if you have an upper entrance. I use the Dr. Farrar method of two queen and combine (pull the excluder) the first week of the honey flow which is totally different than what I am describing. If you return as often as Murray says you can simply cut the queen cells out. If not you will find usually a single virgin queen trapped in the top section if there is no upper entrance to the outside. Queens mate at approx. 75 feet in the air so she is unmated . Using the method Murray used I would simply let the bees fill the former brood cells with honey. I usually did not pull the excluder ( as Murray does) as brood in the honey house hatching is a pain in my opinion and enough sealed brood is brought in with honey supers where queens have found a way past the excluder to lay eggs anyway. I suppose we average a couple boxes of sealed brood brought in in every hundred supers even though we are looking. Those bees emerge and don't fly to the window screen but land in sumps and in water jackets of tanks fouling the water and are a pain. I my self don't really mind but the help gets nervous with all those bees flying around. bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:08:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Winter Wrap >>3) When the temperatures do drop sharply for an extended period of time the cluster will contract and will not be able to reach the stores that was not rearranged during the warm period. Why would the wrapped colony not rearrange the stores during the warm periods? >>If this cold period lasts to long they will die from starvation even though the stores were only inches away. This can happen even if they are wrapped if temperatures drop sharply for long periods. My point was that insulated colonies can withstand the cold long weather better. They hold a losser cluster, covering more surface space in the colony. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 20:20:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . Does anyone have comments on > single brood chambers(pro or con)? > Chirs said: It avoids beekeeper's back. About the only way to avoid beekeepers back is to stay a hobby beekeeper with a couple hives, keep in shape, warm up with light exercise before lifting and lift correctly. The weight of boxes and supers are not above the lifting capabilities of an in shape human. Commercial beekeepers fingers are another subject which I believe has not been discussed on BEE-L but all larger beekeepers know exactly what I am talking about! If a beekeeper which works bees year around holds his hands out flat they seem to curl in the shape of a handhold. My doctor told me that the hand muscles develop to to the strain of lifting created by the common poorly designed langstroth half moon handholds. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:27:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Drawing Frames Lloyd, I got the idea for drawing frames this way from an article in American Bee Journal March 2003-"Experimenting with Nucs" by Roy Hendrickson. 1,)I use this method to increase the number of mating nucs that I use for Queen & Nuc Sales. This year I used 10 nuc setups(3nuc brood boxes) for drawing frames. I did not keep records on the frames made as I was trying to make as many as possible. Approximate quantities 10-12 frames per month per nuc, at times better. It would start out slow and build faster as the bees and brood matured. I used a queen excluder & confined the queen to the bottom nuc this fall and was able to create straight clean frames of "sugar honey" for the bees to feed on this winter. I am trying to overwinter 50 five frame nucs as singles and doubles. 2.) The feeder I use is a Miller type feeder made to the size of a 5-frame nuc. My originals were purchased from Brushy Mountain Bee Farm in NC and the queen excluders came from Rossman Aparies in Ga. 3.) Concerning swarming- Since I am continually robbing brood, drawn comb, and/or sugar filled frames and adding them to new mating nuc's, replacing old brood comb, or equalizing hives; I have not had any problems with swarming. The above article is very interesting and can give a different point of view as to the multiple uses of nuc's. Hope I have answered your questions sufficently. Thanks Frank Wyatt Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 18:31:48 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Winter Wrap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Ian & All, >Why would the wrapped colony not rearrange the stores during the >warm periods? > They would but not all the honey would be rearranged and if the next cold period last to long they will be left away from the rest of the available honey stores. >My point was that insulated colonies can withstand the cold long >weather better. They hold a losser cluster, covering more surface >space in the colony. > And eat more stores in the process, and can run out of stores before winters end. I beleive Tom Elliot concluded that is what happened to him last winter with one of his colonies he keeps. My point is that both ways will work but they will use more stores when insulated. Another point I made is Strain of bees used and quality of stores is the key to wintering successfully. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 _________________________________________________________________ Browse styles for all ages, from the latest looks to cozy weekend wear at MSN Shopping. And check out the beauty products! http://shopping.msn.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:39:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: Honey in carpet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Hamilton wrote: a pail of honey crack in the melter and 60 lbs went on to the carpet .. After several shampooing its still sticky .. Any "experienced" ideas? Dave, got an inexperienced idea. If the carpet is not tacked onto the floor, take it outside and let the bees work on it. I know it's not nice to make fun of another's bad fortune, but I couldn't resist. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 23:37:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Honey in carpet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, after scraping up as much honey as you can, Soak up more with plain kitty litter. It has worked for me. Then scrape that out(side). You can give all of this back to the bees for feed. They will take it. Now go rent a rug doctor and stream it clean. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:52:15 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Bob said... > If you move eggs up also and put the old brood nest a full deep above the > excluder many times queen cells are indeed made. > > More so if you do not regularly replace your queens and have got old queens > with low pheromone levels. The whole business of regularly replacing queens is outside of my experiance. I reckon to breed new queens on the basis of improving the quality of stock, not because the old ones are 'worn out', but British queens have a longer working life than it seems is usual in US. It seems to me that the high level of queen cell building that Bob is expecting, would come from the bees recognising some deficiency in the queens... Is this deficiency part of a wearing out process or was it present when the queen was new? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:14:55 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Drawing Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd & Frank Drawing frames in two story 5 frame nucs works well in UK, I have used it to draw many reduced size mating nuc frames over the top of swarms, I got the tip from a bystander at an apiary demonstration about 30 years ago. I made some Bro. Adam type feeders that were half the standard width and had two feeding stations (there was another separate reason for this). I have no idea why this method is more effective than a full sized hive, but both productivity and quality of drawn comb appear to be better. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:27:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: frozen honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A while back someone on the list mentioned that when frozen comb honey = is taken out of the freezer it will crystallize sooner then if it had = not been frozen. I have been told this many times but never understood = why. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:36:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) Thanks, Bob. I keep trying to think of better methods for my locality, what with huge amounts of nectar available from now till about April, then afterwards often very dry. Right now is when I need strong hives, and this year I've combined hives in three apiaries (late November) to see if it will help. Perhaps this in conjuction with what you and Murray describe (swarms happen very early in the year here) I'll be able to significanly boost my production. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 14:25:57 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Five deeps for brood rearing (was Hive robbing ) In-Reply-To: <200312052305.hB5N2YBN027674@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <200312052305.hB5N2YBN027674@listserv.albany.edu>, Tim Vaughan writes >About what percentage of the time would you guess that the bees make a new >queen above the queen excluder and you end up with a two queen hive using >the method that Murray now uses, and Bob used to? The answer to that question is that it very much depends on the condition of the colony at the time of performing the operation. Take a colony which has been reaching the capacity of the box, but not yet commenced swarm preparation. No cells commenced, and outer bars still predominantly eggs or very young larvae, in other words still in an expansion phase. In this case the drawing of cells in the now isolated nest at the top of the hive would be unusual, perhaps 10% of colonies. The frequency of going on to produce a crop of cells increases the further on you get with cell preparations, and if you have reached the stage of cells which are capped or nearly capped the process is futile and more radical action is required. IF they go on to draw cells upstairs you are left with a number of options, so it is not necessarily a bad thing. You can remove all but one and stagger the boxes so the young one can fly and mate from above, you can insert a board to seperate the colony into two, raising a split that way, remove the old nest to a new location, or simply wipe all the cells out. You have to be aware though, that cells in the top can also mean the fever spreading to the bottom box and cells being drawn there, and mother can try to go off in a swarm. Providing you have not left anything in either box in the way of cells you have 10 days to get back and decide your next course of action. (If any.) If I find swarm cells at all advanced (cells elongated) then I never use this basic system, opting for a splitting strategy instead, and that is another game altogether. This will all seem so laborious, but we have a window from start of May to start of July to get all colony development done and all major operations, and you have to try to operate a 10 day cycle (or as close to it as circumstances permit) during that time to make the best of the limited opportunity. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 14:44:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone In-Reply-To: <004401c31f57$b9a303f0$49b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Using this fact in the "my honey is better than your >honey" argument is again very wrong. Respectfully, I think that was not the point of the discussion. The initial statement which generated the debate (which remained civilized and polite, I think)was "you have not yet convinced me that sugar-based honey is definably different from other-based honey". However, I do think there are different qualities in honeys market. When I came to the list, P. Borst wrote that pointing out others weakness (contamination with pesticides, use of miticides,etc) was not a good strategy for the beekeepers community. And I made this assertion mine, so I believe in highlighting higher standards for honeys. Limiting sugar syrup content in honey is one of good practice that preserve honey quality and credit (sorry, I find hard to find my words this morning). >My point is if the keeper of these bees never fed >them sugar can he/she still claim 100%. I seriously >think not. It is always the same rhetoric. Of cours, absolute is unachievable. But it is not a justification for lower practices. No, you can not guarantee absolute, but you can guarantee best practices. A doctor never guarantees you will recover. He guarantees he will follow state-of-the-art methods to make you recover. Same thing with almost professionnals: they rarely guarantee results. They guarantee methods, experience and tools to try to achieve objectives. Something like "the best practice available". > Feeding sugar, too keep bees alive in a dearth, >getting them started in Spring, or to draw some comb >is not a bad practice and should not be constantly >challenged as poor beekeeping. I agree, one can use sugar syrup. In the North, I would say we have to. But one should have practice to make honey as per legal definition, namely from nectar. > If a small amount of this "man made" honey gets into > the beekeeper's final product it would have to be a > such a trace amount, probably equivalent to the > garbage can bees, that even discussing it is > ridiculous. Respectfully, it seems to me this assertion should be demonstrated. 1% saccharose content, in my fields of practice, is not considered as trace. In ppb, in ppt, yes, it may be considered as trace. Moreover, when measuring saccharose, you do not take into account saccharose that has been broken down into fructose and glucose (assumed to be honey then... but not from nectar which is inconsitant with the legal deifinition) > Lets get back to good bee and beekeeping discussions. I still think this is a valuable matter of discussion for beekeeping, although I may be young, although I will stop my posts on the subject to get reasonnable. >We nicknamed his product "Husky Honey", which took a >blue ribbon at the State Ag show. My point here is >that even remote locations have potential for bees >frequenting areas that we would not want to share >with consumers. I understand this anecdote can shock our minds. But honey is a natural products and yes bees take elements in ponds, wells where organic matter is transformed and who knows where the carbon in our honey is coming from ? And so what ? You also eat salads which grew in compost. Bees find there minerals, salt and so on where they can. Fine. But it remains anecdotes are no excuse to lower practices. Respectueusement, Hervé ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:30:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, I suppose a beekeeping discussion list would work better if divided into the different categories of beekeeper. At our American Beekeeping Federation meetings we do break our workshops down this way. George I. of our list many times does the hobby. A noted queen breeder does the queen breeders and a commercial beekeeper does the sideline & commercial people. The beekeepers which make a living (or try to) from bees look at things very differently than the hobby and even many sideliners. Most commercial see things similar but I never met two beekeepers which kept bees in exactly the same way. The way we keep bees in the U.S. is very different than in the U.K. and our methods might not be needed in the U.K. and the U.K methods might not work for us (as Murray pointed out). That said I will try and answer Dave's questions from my perspective. >The whole business of regularly replacing queens is outside of my experience. It is a PROVEN fact that a older queen can fail at any time due to many factors AND pheromone levels tend to drop as the queen ages. I agree there are exceptions but most commercial beekeepers are not willing to take the chance on queen failure so regularly replace old queens. Three year queens are picked on the most but there are beekeepers which replace queens every year. >I reckon to breed new queens on the basis of improving the quality of stock, not because the old ones are 'worn out', but British queens have a longer working life than it seems is usual in US. There is truth in what Dave says about queens in the U.K. with a longer working life. Queens in high honey production areas actually do wear theirselves out at the pace they keep. In areas of low production a queen might indeed last longer as far as becoming a drone layer. >..It seems to me that the high level of queen cell building that Bob is expecting, When I kept bees in Flroida which is considered tropical the bees were content to maintain a small level of brood rearing. To increase brood rearing to get larger honey crops certain manipulations were done not unlike the manipulations Murray uses. >would come from the bees recognising some deficiency in the queens... Is this deficiency part of a wearing out process or was it present when the queen was new? I thought everyone knew that if you seperate the brood nest far enough that the queens pheromones are not strong in the isolated section that bees will make queen cells. Quite a bit of unknown exists on the question of why bees build queen cells. One of the strange things I have learned from the keeping of the Russian strain this year has been that the bees many times will keep a single queen cell in reserve and tear down before hatching. Then start another and then tear down before hatching. Very strange but true and talked about on BEE-L by Charlie Harper. I never saw another race of bees due this *on a regular basis* but I have seen the phenomenon before in late spring. Maybe Charlie H. will comment. I believe Charlie and I are running the largest number of Russian queens from members on the list but would love to hear any comments from others which have got Russian bees about their observations. The most common cause for the making of supercedure cells is a low pheromone level from the queen but there are other reasons we know about and I AM SURE a few we do not know about! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Missouri, U.S.A. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:08:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Russian Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Those interested in the new Russian bees need to check out the Charlie Harper/ Kim Flottum article about the Russian bees in the December issue of Bee Culture (pg. 42). Also Charlie Harper will be speaking on the Russian bees at the AHPA meeting in San Antonio next month. Too early for me to tell how well I like the Russian bees ( I got my first last April) but I remain optimistic! Charlie Harper is the person with the knowledge on the Russian line as he has been involved from the start! We went through the worst drought in a 100 years this year and honey production overall was poor both Russian and other lines. I have no idea how well the Russians will winter in Missouri but reports from Iowa are that they will winter great. I may or may not put a few on a semi for California in February which would be a test of how well they travel. Mine and my partners bees are wintering in Missouri instead of California this year and so far so good. The weather has not been severe and only cold enough for the bees to cluster so low store consumption BUT things can change in a hurry in Missouri and over two months of possible hard winter left. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 13:57:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings: “It is a PROVEN fact that an older queen can fail at any time due to many factors AND pheromone levels tend to drop as the queen ages. I agree there are exceptions but most commercial beekeepers are not willing to take the chance on queen failure so regularly replace old queens. Three year queens are picked on the most but there are beekeepers which replace queens every year,” says Bob. Bob is quite right about the above scientific fact, especially given his commercial paradigm based on his diligent reading of modern bee literature. But, here, Dave seems to be referring to the aggressive requeening practice, which almost all beekeeping books baptize nowadays—-that every fall or spring, the beekeeper must requeen no matter what to, at least, avoid a name calling. True, the ultimate benefit of replacing a queen is to maximize the honey production although my experience tells me there are duds among new queens, too. Let us revisit this issue of automatic, annual requeening practice, which seems, in the long run, to accelerate the weakening of the bees, a point that has been raised on and off here on Bee-L. For example, such annual requeening robs the colony the necessary time to acclimatize to local conditions, in general, and worse, the invaluable time necessary to build up a possible resistance to the local pathogens, in particular. Along with chemical usage and misusage, I believe this annual requeening is yet another culprit that has *helped* us create weak bees that don’t know what to do with mites. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:43:43 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bogansky,Ronald J" "Feeding sugar, too keep bees alive in a dearth, getting them started in Spring, or to draw some comb is not a bad practice and should not be constantly challenged as poor beekeeping. If a small amount of this "man made" honey gets into the beekeeper's final product it would have to be a such a trace amount, probably equivalent to the garbage can bees, that even discussing it is ridiculous. " I thought this thread had run its course but this post is disappointing as it suggests we have not advanced an inch. Feeding sugar to draw comb IS a questionable practice and whenever publically recommended it SHOULD constantly be challenged as potentially dangerous to the interests of ALL beekeepers. How can Ol Drone seriously claim a only trace amount could get into the final product - and it is ridiculous to discuss it -when only when we had a post on 2 Dec recomending: ""Unfortunately, many hobbyists do not know how to get foundation drawn properly, ...... Briefly, do either: 1. ....... 2. Feed, feed, and more feed. Use a top feeder (not a Boardman or a frame feeder) and either 55% corn syrup or a sugar water mixture of 2 sugar to 1 water. Feed until the entire super is drawn and is started to be capped. If you want a hive to draw more than one super of foundation ..... plan on doing it by feeding. ....... For all hobbyists, I recommend feeding as it is mightily discouraging to find a super that has all 9 or 10 frames only 2/3 finished as the flow quit too soon for the bees to finish."" It is specifically addressing this advice to hobbyists that really makes my blood run cold. Posts on Bee-L have been very helpful in showing the expertise that professionals employ - and the care they have to take not to damage entire shipments to packers. But hobbyists are another matter - in general they have insufficient training and knowledge, only few checks or inspections - so very great care is needed on the advice that is publicly available. In UK we have at most 500 professionals and so the other 22,500 are more like hobbyists , that's 97% of all UK beekeepers. Maybe the situation is quite different in other countries - tho it has been said the USA is no so differtent for one. A hobbyist who fed, fed, fed more, with supers on, thru a short honey flow would end up with so much sugar honey in the crop that it ought to be regarded as unsaleable. At the least, any such advice ought to have a risk warning attached. Are Herve and I really so alone in this list? Where I do now agree with Ol Drone is that the meaning or contamination is shifting and it is too strong in this context. 'Dilution' of floral honey with sugar honey might be a better description - accurate and less inflammatory - but still a worry ! And IMHO far from ridiculous as a topic for Bee-L to discuss! Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:19:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bogansky,Ronald J wrote: > ........ A fellow beekeeper of mine had some colonies in his backyard. He also had a dog pen with two dogs; a Husky and a Labrador Retriever. Every morning the Husky would pee on the fence and few minutes later the bees would bee there. Surprisingly they ignored the Lab. We nicknamed his product "Husky Honey", which took a blue ribbon at the State Ag show. My point here is that even remote locations have potential for bees frequenting areas that we would not want to share with consumers. The dog was probably diabetic. The same holds true for human urine - if you take a leak and it attracts ants (or honeybees) you might want to get checked out. AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:30:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sugar Honey In-Reply-To: <3FD09783.1070608@hcis.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Litherland wrote: > And your analogy for the gravy lumps would be??? :) > > Your gravy analogy triggered a thought - since a popular honey product > is flavored honey sticks, wouldn't sugar honey lend itself perfectly to > this application? When I make gravy, there are no lumps :) It probably could be done since there are many posts on this list about flavors as well as colors from sweetened drinks getting into honey. Coke comes to mind. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:43:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone In-Reply-To: <20031206134419.10966.qmail@web20813.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hervé Logé wrote: > Respectfully, it seems to me this assertion should be > demonstrated. 1% saccharose content, in my fields of > practice, is not considered as trace. In ppb, in ppt, > yes, it may be considered as trace. Moreover, when > measuring saccharose, you do not take into account > saccharose that has been broken down into fructose and > glucose (assumed to be honey then... but not from > nectar which is inconsitant with the legal > deifinition) This discussion (thanks to my error) has gone far afield. I do not think you are saying that sucrose is a contaminant of honey, since it is a component of nectar and in some plants, the dominant and nearly exclusive sugar. In essence, those plants are producing "sugar syrup". I do not know how you can separate the sucrose in cane sugar syrup from the sucrose in nectar since sucrose is sucrose. So if any sugar syrup "honey" ends up in a super it would be undetectable as an added sugar, and truth is, would have little effect over all since it would be overwhelmed by the sucrose already present in the nectar brought in by bees. Especially if the bees were collecting from plants whose nectar was primarily sucrose. I have some difficulty with any definition of "pure" honey since it gets us into the morass of "organic" and the like. Honey that comes from nectar (and aphids) can also have other collected "nectars" (like soft drinks) as has been noticed by most beekeepers. We do not treat that Honey as impure since the bees are just doing what they do best, which is collect sugars in solution and convert it into Honey. They, obviously, are breaking the law since they are not collecting exclusively from plants. Maybe we should call it "Free Range Honey", since we usually have little idea just where it did come from. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:08:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Winter Wrap >They would but not all the honey would be rearranged and if the next cold >period last to long they will be left away from the rest of the available >honey stores. Im sorry, I dont understand what you mean, >And eat more stores in the process, and can run out of stores before winters >end. Iguess it makes it important to know how much store your colonies need for the winter Another point I made is Strain of bees used and quality of stores >is the key to wintering successfully. I use the carniolian type bee. I think it is well adapted for our colder climate. I have used Italian type bees, but feel they need more stores to winter compared to carniolian type bees. I think surip provides the bees with a good quality of winter stores. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:07:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anonymous Ok Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I most rtecently cut a bee hive from a tree that has 8 brood about 8 to 10 inches across.What can I use to (paint ) or seal this item as I would like to show it at the fair or our state bee meetings.thanks JIM :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:10:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/6/03 7:13:53 PM GMT Standard Time, yskim@STGREGORYS.ED= U=20 writes: >=20 > Let us revisit this issue of automatic, annual requeening practice, which > seems, in the long run, to accelerate the weakening of the bees, a point > that has been raised on and off here on Bee-L. For example, such annual > requeening robs the colony the necessary time to acclimatize to local > conditions, in general, and worse, the invaluable time necessary to build > up a possible resistance to the local pathogens, in particular. Along > with chemical usage and misusage, I believe this annual requeening is yet > another culprit that has *helped* us create weak bees that don=E2=80=99t k= now what > to do with mites. You have me a little puzzled here Yoon. I presume you are actually referring to the practice of annual requeening=20 with purchased queen raised in an environment well away from where they are=20= used,=20 in which case you may have a point (although even then I doubt it). However, in many many cases they are using the cells produced within their=20 own units, and in this case I think you are quite wrong in the assertion tha= t=20 annual requeening accelerates degeneration in the bee stock. Far from it. The regular selection of decent queens off good strains, mated=20 to the locally active drones (the vast majority of queens are still open mat= ed=20 everywhere I have heard of), in local conditions, should, if done annually,=20 accelerated the adaptation of the bees to the local conditions. New combinat= ion=20 selected (by natural forces under beekeeper influence) every year rather tha= n=20 every two or three. Has to be a positive move in my book. Too many queens selected from too narrow a gene base can give rise to=20 problems, but most are aware of this and open mating becomes a valuable way=20= of=20 maintaining the number of alleles in the local population. Calluna :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:46:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: frozen honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A while back someone on the list mentioned that when frozen comb > honey is taken out of the freezer it will crystallize sooner then if > it had not been frozen. I've never heard this, but I have often stated the opposite, and have written on this topic on this list. (See archives). In fact, years ago, when we produced tens of thousands of comb sections, we routinely 'froze' them to maintain them in a fresh state and to temper them against quick granulation. Another method of keeping honey liquid is to maintain it above 80 degress F or so. I recall buying sections from a gentleman in California who kept his orange blossom sections in a special room in his house for up to a year. Orange blossom honey is known to otherwise crystalize quite quickly, apparently. The problem with using warmth, rather than 'freezing' to maintain the liquid state is that 1.) the honey may darken and change over time, and 2.) if there are any wax moth eggs, they can hatch and make a mess. 'Freezing', on the other hand, kills wax moth and very much slows the chemical activities in honey, and also vastly slows the migration of molecules that can result in crystalization or separation. What we see when we examine 'frozen' honey, is a very thick, viscous substance, that handles like 'solid' tar, or like toffee. 'Freezing' is possibly the wrong word for what happens to honey when subjected to the temperatures we can achieve in a freezer or outdoors, since, (for these purposes), honey can be considered to be basically a supercooled and supersaturated solution of sugars and water. As such, it is a natural anti-freeze. I'm not sure at what temperature, if any, honey could be considered to be actually frozen, but, if it actually freezes, my thoughts are that the freezing point is very low. My understanding of these phenomena is limited. Perhaps someone can correct me, or add to this. As for the after-effects of 'freezing', I have compared it to tempering steel, although I am sure that is not an exact analogy, either. At any rate, what I do know, is that after 'freezing', *our* honey took very much longer to granulate after removal from cold storage that honey not so conditioned. Although, I had heard previously of this effect, and have always assumed it to be general, I cannot say if it applies to the honey from your region. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Visions of the future, a new Canadian Honey Producers Association, and more... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 13:48:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: frozen honey In-Reply-To: <002f01c3bbfc$ae8af1c0$84a45b40@rickWG5N33DUTV> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:27 AM 12/6/2003, you wrote: > A while back someone on the list mentioned that when frozen comb honey > is taken out of the freezer it will crystallize sooner then if it had not > been frozen. I have been told this many times but never understood why. I suppose there is a period of time when thawing out the honey that is above freezing but less than room temperature, which promotes the start of crystallization. Crystals in the honey tend to speed up crystalization even after thawed. That said. I have not notice a big difference. When thawing honey I do make sure to separate the containers to let air circulate around them and put them in a warm room (or heated box) to minimize the time it take to thaw. Just leaving jars or comb all together in a box works much like a cooler and keeps them quite cool for a long time which likely would promote crystalization. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 16:28:40 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps Yoon said: > But, here, Dave seems to be referring to the aggressive requeening > practice, which almost all beekeeping books baptize nowadays-- > that every fall or spring, the beekeeper must requeen no matter what I had assumed up until now that this was due to the decline in "drone quality" we have seen. (Dare I say lower sperm count?) I do not replace queens that appear to be doing well in terms of brood pattern and quantity, but I must agree that I have been forced to requeen more often in recent years, even when basing such decisions on clear and compelling metrics. Offhand, I'd guess that I have bought half again as many replacement queens in recent years versus what I bought in the early 1990s. jim (The Shopping Mall Santa: A strange man wearing a disguise who asks children to sit in his lap.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 17:26:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Check out Petition Comments: To: Sportageman1951@wmconnect.com, lballard@cfw.com, CBow3952@cs.com, J5butcher@aol.com, A50CROSLEYTRK@aol.com, mountaineer001@msn.com, teresia.fought@mail.wvu.edu, dave@darkmatterfactory.com, geniebee@juno.com, ken.harper@charlestonfire.com, smokey3206@msn.com, 2leadman@wv-cis.net, JRectenwald@aol.com, Rreed@aol.com, SpirWomen@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After signing the petition send it directly to; Dwian Lilly 603 Overlook Drive Beckley, WV 25801 Click here: Petition He needs it ASAP by December 15, 2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:58:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Long-Term Consequences of Annual Requeening Greetings, again: Of course, Murray, I am not talking about using queen cells to requeen, a too time-consuming procedure for most American commercial outfit, operating on efficacy-paradigm. I am talking about simply ordering hundreds or thousands of queens for immediate replacement, for they will start laying eggs immediately without losing the valuable time, especially at the onset of a heavy honey flow. Similarly, I am not talking about requeening with Russians for improvement of the stock, either. I am merely talking about requeening solely to invigorate the egg-laying and thus maximize the honey production. I nevertheless always appreciate many of you Brits brining different perspectives to the table, though. To start, I would like to hear about any research done on the *long-term consequences of annual requeening*, if such study has ever been done. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 23:14:45 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone Bill Truesdell said: > I do not know how you can separate the sucrose in cane > sugar syrup from the sucrose in nectar I do. > since sucrose is sucrose. Not exactly. The carbons, hydrogens, and oxygens that make up the glucose and fructose that are joined to form sucrose have slightly different isotopes depending upon their source. There are likely detectable difference at even lower levels, but as it is Saturday night, I'll stop after pointing out that groups of three quarks are rumored to be held together with quark screws. :) > So if any sugar syrup "honey" ends up in a super it would be > undetectable as an added sugar There would be several ways to detect this. The easy test would be a carbon-13 test, which would detect the cane sugar. To my knowledge, "processing" by the bees would not change the carbons. Sugar Cane is a "C4" plant, while most all nectar plants are "C3" plants. This means very different ratios of carbon isotopes. That said, these tests cannot even detect low-level (5% or so) overt adulteration, so they are not going to detect low-level amounts of "pseudo-honey" made from "fed sugar". If you are really interested in this subject, you can read this http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/SugarReprint.pdf jim (There is a big difference between "Being Stoned" and "Getting Stoned") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:44:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & all > The way we keep bees in the U.S. is very different than in the U.K. and > our methods might not be needed in the U.K. and the U.K methods might > not work for us I am not knocking the differences... The differences exist and I would like to find out why they have arisen. Murray said... > The regular selection of decent queens off good strains, mated to the > locally active drones (the vast majority of queens are still open mated > everywhere I have heard of), in local conditions, should, if done annually, > accelerated the adaptation of the bees to the local conditions. I agree that some breeding should be done every year, but only to the extent of replacing those that are judged to be poor, not replacing every queen. I find it bizarre that anyone would consider replacement of all queens in one go... That really is throwing the baby out with the bath water, all the heritage in the drones of the stocks that were best suited to the conditions are wiped out, how does that benefit the beekeeper or his future stocks? I can imagine that in US you might need to replace as many as 30% per annum whereas in UK we can replace much smaller percentages, because the queens have a longer life and many of the strains involved use supercedure as a means of retaining useful genes and replqacing queens with low pheromone levels. But if 50% are required to be replaced on a two year cycle then I reckon there is something missing in the quality of the queens in the first place. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:38:38 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone In-Reply-To: <3FD20749.9060005@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <3FD20749.9060005@suscom-maine.net>, Bill Truesdell writes >This discussion (thanks to my error) has gone far afield. I do not think >you are saying that sucrose is a contaminant of honey, since it is a >component of nectar and in some plants, the dominant and nearly >exclusive sugar. In essence, those plants are producing "sugar syrup". Sucrose is indeed a natural component of both nectar and syrup. The fact it is not of floral origin is of little importance as it is chemically identical. Not all nectars are themselves of floral origin, and extra floral nectaries are not that rare (cotton?). These are really producing a sap much in the same way as sugar cane does. Once the bees process the nectar and/or syrup there is little discernable difference between the two, as the inversion and splitting process ends up with much the same result. A mix of mono and disaccharides tasting akin to a syrup ON THEIR OWN. The focus on the sugars is actually missing the point altogether, as it is the absence of the other, apparently minor, components which renders sugar derived 'honey' inferior. The proteins, the essential oils, the acids, the pollens,....all the things that distinguish one honey from another. Various honeys analyse with 2 to 11% sucrose in them (the latter is very high and is naturally found in some samples of Borage honey) A carbon isotope test can distinguish between sugars of nectar and non nectar origin, but at low levels this is hard because a result might fall within the natural range. It is also expensive, and is largely the preserve of enforcement bodies over here. Pollen analysis is of little use, as the pollen spectrum is not altered, just a bit more dilute. However, sugar syrup, and invert syrup in particular, may also show up in an elevated hmf. Invert syrups can already be close to the legal max for Europe, with no apparent discolouration or other off grading of the feed. Can be a useful indication in apparently unheated honey. Such products can also have a significant 'ash' reading in analytical results. Yes, of course sugar derived honey is inferior to the real thing (though there are some truly awful honeys out there), but chemically at the sugars level there is little distinction, so low levels are hard to find and of practically no impact on the organoleptic properties of the final product. Thus SMALL amounts finding their way into the supers from winter stores being shifted about is not significant. Abusive feeding, and YES it IS done, even here in the whiter than white UK (possibly even ESPECIALLY so in this country ), is extreme malpractice and should be stamped out. I listened to one beekeeper in mainland Europe one day and he fed his bees in April, again in June, about 14 Kg each time, and then gave them 35Kg each in the autumn. He rarely loses a hive, and is delighted with his average of about 50Kg a colony. > >I have some difficulty with any definition of "pure" honey since it gets >us into the morass of "organic" and the like. Honey that comes from >nectar (and aphids) can also have other collected "nectars" (like soft >drinks) as has been noticed by most beekeepers. We do not treat that >Honey as impure since the bees are just doing what they do best, which >is collect sugars in solution and convert it into Honey. Yes its a morass, for sure. Bees collect a plethora of things we would actually like our clientelle to know about. Round here the favourite watering hole is the ghastly black liquid which leaches out of the bottom of dung middens. It is alive with bees even in the midst of a nectar flow from floral sources. OK, they are thought to be after minerals, but this stuff stinks and must contain all sorts of foul pathogens and toxins. Against that, a pound or two of winter syrup finding its way into the harvest (and not even consistently so) is a minor issue. > >They, obviously, are breaking the law since they are not collecting >exclusively from plants. > >Maybe we should call it "Free Range Honey", since we usually have little >idea just where it did come from. No Bill, you are perfectly well aware where the vast majority of it comes from, to the point that it will have all the correct characteristics, and be indistinguishable from, the product of the guy along the road who religiously avoids all feeding. Just tell them what it is and leave it to others to muddy the waters. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 20:55:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I can imagine that in US you might need to replace as many as 30% per annum > whereas in UK we can replace much smaller percentages, because the queens > have a longer life and many of the strains involved use supercedure as a > means of retaining useful genes and replqacing queens with low pheromone > levels. But if 50% are required to be replaced on a two year cycle then I > reckon there is something missing in the quality of the queens in the first > place. I doubt on average that queens in UK live longer than queens in US. Queens that are managed for maximum brood rearing may run out of sperm sooner than others, but IMHO UK queens and an US queens setting side by side and managed the same would average similar life spans. The US has very diverse beekeeping regions some similar to the UK. The US also has beekeepers that practice every imaginable management style and some not imaginable. Some management styles and some beekeeping regions may lend themselves to longer lived queens. It is well documented that as queens age it is more likely for a colony to swarm and maintain brood rearing at acceptable levels. It is up to the beekeeper to decide at what point in the queens life she is no longer useful. I have kept a few breeder queens 5 to 6 years. Marc Studebaker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:13:35 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray wrote: > Various honeys analyse with 2 to 11% sucrose in them (the latter is very > high and is naturally found in some samples of Borage honey) I believe that some of the testing on borage honey a couple of years ago found levels of sucrose up to 28%. Interestingly, the tests also found that the highest levels were from borage grown in the North of England (the area around Beverley), whilst that from the Midlands was (from memory!) in the region of 11-12% and that from the South-East was only 2-3%. I have yet to see any explanation for these variations. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:05:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim, I would HANG each comb in a cool place and let it drip dry for a few days and then FREEZE it in your freezer to preserve it until your state meetings. George :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:03:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Frey Subject: Seminar Feb. 28 in Albany NY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association will host a 2004 seminar. SABA’s seminars are always worthwhile! Date and Time, Location: Saturday February 28, 2004, 9 AM-4:30 PM in Lecture Center One on the SUNY uptown campus in Albany, NY. Speakers and Topics: Dr. Nicholas Calderone, Associate Professor of Entomology and leader of honey bee research at Cornell University since 1996 will speak about "AFB: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow." Dr. Wyatt Mangum, a frequent columnist for American Bee Journal and Bee Culture and well-known bee photographer and mathematician, will present "A Close Up and Intimate Look at Queen Cells" & "Debris Under a Screen Floor, an Indicator of Colony Condition: Experience from 100 Colonies." Dr. Thomas Seeley, Assistant Professor of Neurobiology and Behavior at Cornell, will teach us about "Forest Bees and Varroa Mites" & "House- hunting by Honey Bees." Dr. Seeley focuses his research on using honey bee colonies as model systems for studying functional organization at the group level. Cost: $25 per person or $40 per couple, if received by February 13 (check or money order). After February 13, cost is $35 per person or $50 per couple. Cost includes a morning coffee/snack break. Attendees can buy lunches nearby. Hotel: A “block” of discounted rooms is reserved for February 27 at the Marriott Fairfield Inn, just across Washington Ave. When you call to reserve rooms, please call by February 13 and mention the "beekeeping meeting" to get the discount. $74 + tax = $82.14 for non-smoking room with 2 queen size beds (regularly $99). Hotel has a pool, whirlpool, and complimentary Continental breakfast. Marriott Fairfield 518-435-1800, #1383 Washington Ave., Albany, NY 12206 Contact: SABA, C/o Anne Frey, 4808 Skyline Dr., Delanson, NY 12053-3932 (518) 895-8744 AnneF@capital.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 07:51:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The regular selection of decent queens off good strains, mated to the >> locally active drones (the vast majority of queens are still open >> mated everywhere I have heard of), in local conditions, should, if >> done annually, accelerated the adaptation of the bees to the local >> conditions. We are talking about *entirely* different ways of operating, on vastly different scales, in very different regions. What may be a primary concern to some, such as raising one's own stock, may not be of any interest or value to others. Some, or even many, of the beekeepers who replace all their queens every year may, or may not, raise their own -- or even get them from a supplier within 1,000 miles of their operation. Moreover, their operation may move thousands of miles over a year, and the owner and his crews may be a thousand mles from some of the hives at any given time. There are no 'local conditions' in such an operation. Not for long, anyhow. How the bees can adapt to that, I don't know, but Florida queen supplier Dave Miksha says that his customers buy his queens because they withstand constant moving, and still perform. Some queens don't like being moved constantly. I can attest to that. I assume that he gets exceptional queens fed back to him from customers, to use in breeding. > I agree that some breeding should be done every year, but only to the > extent of replacing those that are judged to be poor, not replacing > every queen. Those who replace all queens every year are not breeding, they are producing honey and pollinating. Many do not raise any queens, intentionally anyhow. They buy what they need from proven suppliers who specialize, at a time of year when the supplier can supply, and when the beekeeper has the staff and the bees in a place where it can be done. You can't just stick in a queen here and there any old time and expect the kind of results you can get, and need, if you were to do it the right way, at the right time. We've covered that here before. Those who replace annually have their good reasons for replacing the queens when they do, the way they do, or they would not do it. They are good businessmen and don't waste time or effort, if they can help it. Requeening as hard work, and expensive. They requeen routinely for number of reasons, among which are: 1.) Many of these beekeepers are in the South, where one non-stop year in the life of a queen is like three years in the life of a queen in more northern areas. Riding on trucks tends to make queens disappear. Not necessarily immediately, but within a month or two. To add to wear and tear, many push their queens with patties and syrup to have them ready to go to the next job, or make package bees for sale. 2.) These beekeepers are seeking the fast buildup and big populations that young queens are known for. Many are paid by the frame for pollination, and older, more conservative queens cost them money. Some sell package bees at some point in the year, and need highly prolific queens. 3.) They also like to have uniform hives for easy management, and supercedure queens can lead to variable hives. In their travels, they can pick up some bad characteristics (AHB?) if supercedure queens are allowed to continue. Regular requeening can forestall that. Additionally, if a beekeeper is using hygienic stock, supercedure queens prove susceptible, and cause breakdown with disease. 4.) Migratories, in particular, cannot afford swarms, for numerous good reasons, and young queens throw fewer swarms. 5.) From experience, these beekeepers know statistically that, as queens age, they fail. Large commercial beekeepers are set up to do things in batches for efficiency and uniformity, not to deal individually with each hive; if they know that a certain number of queens will fail by a certain time, they premptively replace them all, at their own convenience, so that when they go pollinating, they are not embarrassed by an inspector or grower finding hives in various stages of supercedure and/or apparent queenlessness. 6.) Some beekeepers just go through their whole outfit annually and make up new colonies from the old, redistributing everything and replacing all queens. That way they know what they have, and it is all the same. Horace Bell does that, from what I hear, and, last I heard he has about 35,000 hives, scattered around the country. Therfore, it must work. Buddy Ashurst does something like that too. These guys are pros. > I find it bizarre that anyone would consider replacement of all > queens in one go... That really is throwing the baby out with the > bath water, all the heritage in the drones of the stocks that were > best suited to the conditions are wiped out, how does that benefit > the beekeeper or his future stocks? I think we can see that is of no concern to these big beekepers. There are many degrees between these commercials who run up and down the Interstates in America, and a beekeeper with a few hives for pleasure somewhere on a big island in the North Atlantic. Bizarre or not, as demonstrated above, we are all in very different realities, with very different goals and methods. Nonetheless, we are all beekeepers of some sort, and getting together on a list like this is very educational. After all, to much of this planet's population, beekeeping is bizarre. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:06:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, Dave said: I agree that some breeding should be done every year, but only to the extent of replacing those that are judged to be poor, not replacing every queen. Many U.S. larger beekeepers use this method. My two associates do but mainly because of the high costs of mated queens and the labor involved with installing. My partner and I had bees in a 35 acre rented former rock quarry last spring. Monsoon rains can come and we will never get stuck. Semi's can move in anytime of the year. Last spring he worked around 300 hives using the replace as needed method in the time I dequeened and installed a hundred Russian queens. So I would guess the cost per hour (labor) per hive of annual requeening ( I do not annual requeen my operation) would be three times the labor cost per hive of Dave's method. Replacing queens which are obviously failing is not rocket science. What else are you going to do and what are you risking as the hive is already in trouble. Many beekeepers have no idea if a queen in their operation is a new supercedure queen or five years old. None are marked. Is their method inferior to mine? Not really as they simply work on a percentage factor. Many years the method (most commonly used by larger beekeepers in the U.S. outlined by Dave above) works but when the outfit slips to mostly four or five year queens then a whole years honey production can be lost to swarming bees and drone laying queens. Dave said: I find it bizarre that anyone would consider replacement of all queens in one go.. Actually quite a bit of work is also involved which equals the price of the queen. When to replace queens is a often discussed topic at bee meetings. Less by hobby beekeepers which I have seen even name their queens and become quite attached. A few thoughts to ponder: One large commercial operator out of Oregon replaces his queens twice a year. Maybe he has an interest in a queen producing business. Dunno! Brother Adam said he was convinced that queens produced larger honey crops in the second year. I am not totally convinced but do agree that a overwintered hive with a second year queen which has only been given swarm control measures does *usually* produce a better honey crop than a hive started from a nuc but there certainly are exceptions. Almost all commercial honey producers will say that queens in the third to fifth year are swarmy and the queen can fail at any time. These queens can be laying a perfect pattern one week and a week later be putting out a prolific drone pattern. A hobby beekeeper doing weekly checks will see the problem quickly and make the necessary corrections but the larger honey producer will simply lose production from the hive. Beekeepers which are in the bee breeding part of beekeeping certainly see things differently than the commercial position (U.S.) but in the U.S. most commercial bee breeders are also commercial pollinators and honey producers. The Weavers (Texas )and Wilbanks (Georgia) run thousands of hives besides the queen and package business. The production queens they sell are field tested in their own hives. Something a small queen breeder can't say. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:44:52 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Marc & all > I doubt on average that queens in UK live longer than queens in US It is 'average' life length that would show distinct differences between US & UK. I would suggest that on average UK queens live a about a year longer, with breeder queens also lasting longer than 5 or 6 years when laying rate is curtailed. The long lived queens also sometimes get a little help from daughter queens laying alongside for a season or two, which takes the pressure off the older queen. > UK queens and an US queens setting side by side and managed > the same would average similar life spans. This could not really happen, as you would be hard pushed to manage such different colonies the same, or at least if you did... One or other of them is going to end up in a mess. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:22:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Time to think of the US meetings coming up in January MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's time to think of the US meetings coming up in January, again, so I went to their web sites to get the lowdown. It's not that they both haven't sent me stuff in the mail. It's just that my paper filing system for that kinda thing leaves something to be desired, and the web is just so much easier to search. I expected that everything would be laid out there. (Sound familiar)? Seems that neither the ABF http://www.abfnet.org/ nor the AHPA http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/ have much on their web pages, although the ABF at least mentions the upcoming meeting, and provides a few links, including one to the hotel, that does not work -- the Sawgrass Marriott Resort and Beach Club. The AHPA appears to be still a year out-of-date, with no mention of a 2004 meeting. (And I was complaining about EAS)! Anyhow, I dug up the info: ABF: 61st Annual ABF Convention Jacksonville, Florida Jan. 14-17, 2004 AHPA: 35th Annual Convention Omni Hotel, San Antonio, Texas Jan 7-11, 2004 I did a quick analysis, and it seems that the two meetings are 1,100 miles apart, with two days in between. For those wanting to drive between, and the suppliers with displays to haul, that does not leave much time for dropping into Mobile, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, or Galveston on the way by. So far, I have not decided which one to attend, or both. I *want* to go to Florida, but I have business in Texas. At any rate, the point is this: if you have never been to one of these meetings, you simply have to go, if you possibly can. Although there is a cost involved, the friends you will make, and the information you will absorb at either meeting is invaluable, and will pay you back several times over within a year. Whichever meeting I attend, I hope to meet some of my BEE-L friends there. Note: On the topic of finding association sites on the web, Dmoz, the Open Directory Project that feeds Google and other search engines, has a category for beekeeping associations. Many are listed there already, but if you have an association, and you have a web site, why not visit http://dmoz.org/Science/Agriculture/Animals/Insects/Beekeeping/Associations/ and submit your site, using the link at the top? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 18:05:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Queen replacement - was 5 deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/12/03 05:02:07 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > The most common cause for the making of supercedure cells is a low > pheromone > level from the queen but there are other reasons we know about and I AM SURE > a few we do not know about! Or as an even more famous American was recently given an award for saying: There are known knowns and known unknowns and unknown unknowns. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:42:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/7/03 9:47:54 PM GMT Standard Time, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM writes: > > We are talking about *entirely* different ways of operating, on vastly > different scales, in very different regions. What may be a primary concern > to some, such as raising one's own stock, may not be of any interest or > value to others. I can assure you Allen, that even on my comparatively tiny scale, if a supplier could offer me queens effective in my area they would get a big order every spring. We even had a couple of abortive efforts at sending our own best queens to a breeder. As may have been clear from my full posting, I do not happen to believe a lot of the stuff about bought in queens being naturally inferior to what you breed and know that requeening with a fresh and vigorous young queen of good quality eliminates a whole heap of the work in more labour intensive systems. Real producers want good queens and good service from good breeders. If a supplier does not meet these criteria they slip down order of preference the guys who really mean business. Where they place their orders is highly significant, as the plum orders follow the plum suppliers. Bad suppliers, or suppliers of sub standard queens are left till last to be booked up, and tend not to be around for as long as the good ones. Tried getting on the Kona supply list for May? I've been wanting to get on it for years without success. The big boys, many of them in Canada, have had them fully booked so far ahead that I may never get on that list. > > Some, or even many, of the beekeepers who replace all their queens every > year may, or may not, raise their own -- or even get them from a supplier > within 1,000 miles of their operation. Moreover, their operation may move > thousands of miles over a year, and the owner and his crews may be a > thousand mles from some of the hives at any given time. There are no 'local > conditions' in such an operation. Not for long, anyhow. These guys are a special case. However, even then, as you go on to state later, they > require a bee suited to the task in hand. Some bees just do not like being > migrated and others are quite unfazed by it, so there is again a type of > selection pressure at play, and they will only buy queens which are OK for their > operation. > > Those who replace all queens every year are not breeding, they are producing > honey and pollinating. All those participating in this thread and think they have somehow found an enlightened point of view would be best to read that sentence. It is absolutely the key. Making value judgements on the way the real professionals operate from any perspective outwith that is unlikely to give you the correct conclusion. Bees are not just a cosy eco friendly thing to do, they are serious business. If the vast majority of the population are to have honey available to them at an affordable price it needs the big guys with their often denigrated methods. If pollinators get scarce my beloved smoked almonds might get expensive, and that would never do. (G) > > 1.) Many of these beekeepers are in the South, where one non-stop year in > the life of a queen is like three years in the life of a queen in more > northern areas. This is a point missed frequently by many northern beekeepers, especially over here. They make a false assumption about inferior queens because of their shorter life, but our queens only have to lay flat out for two or three months and just do not burn out the same as ones with a longer season to contend with. My friend in California requeens far more frequently than is done over here, and during a talk to an association they were horrified and wondered why he had such poor queens. Just didn't understand how many eggs such a queen has to lay in 6 months or so, compared to the relatively easy time our queens get. Riding on trucks tends to make queens disappear. Snap. Black bees are especially susceptible to this due to being more highly strung. > Horace > Bell does that, from what I hear, and, last I heard he has about 35,000 > hives, scattered around the country. Therfore, it must work. Buddy Ashurst > does something like that too. These guys are pros. Just where do they go about sourcing 35000 queens? Not doubting it, just curious. > > After all, to much of this planet's population, beekeeping is bizarre. > Murray :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::