From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:52:08 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST,WHY_WAIT autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B834907C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDKV012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0405A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 101399 Lines: 2269 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 21:52:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Auction In Linden, Michigan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Coleene, I caution you! Suppose the auction had lots of hive bodies for sale at $3 each How do you know that they are clear of AFB spores imbedded in the wood? You would just be introducing AFB into your apiary. Maryland can fumigate hive parts with ethylene oxide. Massachusetts can radiate hive parts with cobalt irradiation. ALL the other states ONLY burn hive parts to kill AFB spores. Aren't you aware that TERRAMYCIN does not kill AFB spores, but only those disease "germs" in the first 54 hours of the vegetative state. In 1922, 82 years ago, my mentor, Dr. James I.Hambleton, Chief Apiculturist of the U.S. put a hive body away at the Beltsville Bee Lab that was infected with AFB spores. Each year for the past 82 years, they culture samples of wood from that hive body, and active AFB is still present. Just trying to be helpful. George Imirie Certified Master Beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 20:29:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update In-Reply-To: <000901c42eff$bcb170a0$05bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Their is still some Russian line that are still being tested that have not been put in the Russian breeding program that came out of Quarantine Station at Grand Terre Island, Louisiana last year. The Russian breeding program consist of 15 lines of Russian queens with 5 in each block, only the best two are released in the block that is under field test for that year, they are mated to drones from the other two blocks that are not under test to keep from inbreeding. Queens that make the grade are used for grafting the queens for sale as Russian breeder queens mated under the same conditions as the test queens. The Russian breeding program is a long term project (20 years), the Russian bee that was released in 2004 is better than the one released in 2003 and so on due to the constant culling and selection test done by the bee lab every year. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 896 5247 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 21:30:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob, Chuck, and Keith: You have mentioned my name FAVORABLY, and I THANK YOU; and hence I am writing. My topic might be: Russians (Are they Carniolans?), Who can decide? Where does one get "true" racial queens, of ANY race? Does anyone understand honey bee "genetics" or different "strains" of the same race? Queen "producers" versus queen "breeders"? I am older (83) than most of you, in my 72nd year of beekeeping in Maryland, NOT a commercial beekeeper in spite of 100+ colonies for many years, just a Ph.D. Nuclear physicist who designed, helped build, and tested atomic bombs for the Manhattan Project and the following Atomic Energy Commission. Hence, I don't have any formal education in genetics, anatomy, honey production, honey sales, or queen rearing. However, I am a scientist, think like a scientist, demand of MYSELF and others like a scientist, and read every thing printed by bee scientists and bee researchers. Today, I am writing to get my mind off of a SUPER problem for me. My future wife, age 75, who I first met 49 years ago when I was testing atomic bombs in Nevada is being operated on at this moment in Las Vegas for lymphatic cancer; and I already lost my 1st wife after 59 years of marriage to pancreatic cancer. We were scheduled to go to Williamsburg, Virginia in June to buy a retirement home for the two of us. Maryland is no longer an agricultural state because farms are now townhouses and shopping malls. In central Maryland (Baltimore- Washington DC) the ONLY nectar flows are in April and May from Black Locust and Tulip Poplar, and its ALL OVER by June 10th. My mentor was Dr. James I. Hambleton, Chief Apiculturist of the U. S. from 1922-66 when Shim took over. He ordered Italians for me in 1933, and I did pretty good with them for 15 years. In 1948, Steve Taber persuaded me to switch my 20 colonies to Carniolans, pointing out that they raised brood 3-4 weeks ahead of Italians in the Maryland weather and would have a much bigger force of foragers who would be ready for "nectar collecting" by April 15th. He was RIGHT! With Italians, I rarely got 100 pounds/colony; and the Carniolans always give me over 100 pounds/colony AFTER I LEARNED HOW TO CONTROL THEIR SWARMING INSTINCTS. Getting decent queens was a problem, and the old Hastings line was not real good. Finally, about 1960, I found Al Dietz, author of Chapter 2 in the Hive and Honey Bee and he sent me Carniolan queens from Georgia, but some were crossbred with Italians. About the late 70's, like a breath of spring, Sue Cobey, just a young high IQ scientist appeared on the scene, developing well bred Carnie queens by the "closed population" methods of Laidlaw-Page; and after going to Germany and visiting perhaps the world's greatest honey bee geneticist, Dr. Friedrich Ruttner, Sue set about producing 99% pure Carniolan queens via Artificial Insemination. SO WHAT, you might say. I think I know real Carniolans. Unfortunately, it is a BLACK bee with greyish-brown hairs rather than the golden Italian. The Carniolan VERY early late winter-early spring build up is unequaled by any other race. Brother Adam was AMAZED at this EXPLOSIVE buildup. The prime home of the Carniolan is the Carniolan Mountain range in former northern Yugoslavia, now Croatia; and they are the principal bee in all of Germany, Rumania, Bulgaria, and Hungary. I was there to visit the beekeepers 20 years ago. I purposely omitted AUSTRIA. There is a black bee there, thought to be Carniolan, but it over collects propolis; and true Carniolans collect almost no propolis. Let me be honest, the swarming instinct of the Carniolan bee is controllable by a well organized beeKEEPER, but it is a disaster in the hands of a beeHAVER or a lazy beekeeper. Remember the Y-2k Carniolan bee of 15 years ago brought back to the states by Tom Rinderer that was supposed to be varroa resistant? What a JOKE! That was an AUSTRIAN strain of Carniolan which collected more propolis than honey. Ha Ha. Tom is a highly competent scientist, but his staff really "screwed up" in the selection of an Austrian strain of Apis Carnica. What is the Russian lineage? In private communications, several scientists have suggested that it is either all Carniolan, or a Carniolan cross with the Caucasian bee that is widespread around the Ural Mountains and the Black Sea area. My former BEE PARTNER, Ann Harman, has been to Eastern Russia and worked with the bees, and she tells me that it has most of the attributes of the Carnie, but equally, she admits that she is just a chemist and not a geneticist. Hence, my GUESS (and that is what it is) is that the so-called Russian bee is basically a Carniolan, that has been developed into a STRAIN prevalent in Eastern Russia. I would be most happy if someone could persuade Rob Page to investigate and give us his opinion of the Russian genetics. Speaking for myself, I want NO PART of this "unknown" race, strain, hybrid or anything else you want to call it. Everyone wants to buy a new queen for $10, and believe it is the "silver bullet" to end varroa problems. I won't live to see it, but my opinion is the increased development of HYGIENIC BEES, started by Walter Rothenbuhler about 1960, endorsed by Steve Taber, with supplemental proof by Martha Gillian, and NOW were fantastic results of success by Marla Spivak will be the final end of the varroa problem and indeed maybe the AFB problem that caused Rothenbuhler to examine HYGIENIC BEHAVIOR. There is just a single problem here - the average customer, particularly the commercial beekeeper who already has a difficult time making a living from bees, is NOT going to pay the price that is going to be charged for a HYGIENIC queen. I have mentioned "strains", racially "true", queen "producers" and queen "breeders". What do I mean? When Rothbuhler was investigating HYGIENIC behavior in Iowa, there were two prime "strains" of Italian bees there, the Brown line and the Van Scoy line. The Brown line was very defensive, or NASTY, but could stay clear of diseases by its hygienic behavior of self cleaning of its brood chamber of any diseased brood. Close by was the Van Scoys line which was placid, non defensive, but was subject to diseases. Rothenbuhler was forced to drop his research about HYGIENIC bees, because TERRAMYCIN was discovered in 1970 to treat AFB in place of sulfur drugs, and everyone lost interest, but now we have Marla Spivak restoring interest. There was the Brown strain and the Van Scoy strain here, both of which were apis mellifera ligustria. Oppositely, via Artificial Insemination, Sue Cobey is producing probably the closest bee to a "true" bee, and hence cycling away its inherited changes resulting from crossbreeding, and restoring the original "true" Carniolan race. Lastly, let me mention queen "producers" versus queen "breeders". Raising queens is an ART, but raising queens for a given genetic reason is SCIENTIFIC. Bud Cale, a superb scientist, produced two well known hybrids, the Starlines and the Midnites, each designed for an explicit purpose: Starlines for honey production and Midnites for gentleness. Just as we have many, many, too many cell phone manufacturers and cell service companies today, ALL fighting to make a SALE; or the Ford competing pricewise with Chevrolet and Toyota, while meanwhile Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW won't get into that rat race, because they not only have the superior product, but have the PRESTIGE of QUALITY not enjoyed by the "price" cars. Read the ads in Bee Culture or ABJ, and their are dozens of ads for queens. However, HOW many know "beans" about honey bee genetics, selecting queens for desirable traits, changing their drone line to better the desirable qualities and diminish the not wanted traits. I call these queen "sellers" queen "producers". However, there are just a few out there that are true queen "breeders" that are trying desperately to keep their line "true", using Artificially Inseminated queens as their BREEDER queens, constantly selected new drone lines and RAISING those drones for field mating with their virgin queens, SELECTING BREEDER queens that prod uce bees with desirable traits for their market, and destroying BREEDER queens that produce bees with undesirable traits. In spite of all this research and study by the true queen BREEDER, he is forced to sell his queens at a price not too far above the price that this unknowledgeable queen "producer" sells his queens. How does the buyer know who is good and who is not so good? I can, but I am NOT going to name any names; but I think that the queen "sellers" that are involved and serve on the National Honey Board, or any of the other bee associations, whose purpose is to promote the sale of honey, crop pollination by honey bees, the importance of honey bee pollination to the ecology of FOOD for humans; and they do this without PAY, but only in the interest of public information, so badly destroyed by the Hollywood "killer bee" movies, are showing their "medal" as informed queen breeders rather than that guy only interested in a buck. xxx? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 22:54:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Red ants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you seen them carry a mite? Record big hives will have ants under them. Is it because the beekeeper doesn't work the hive for the ants or are the ants helping the hive? Michael Housel Orlandobee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 01:01:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Dettori Subject: Re: Auction In Linden, Michigan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: > Maryland can fumigate hive parts with ethylene oxide. Massachusetts can > radiate hive parts with cobalt irradiation. ALL the other states ONLY > burn hive parts to kill AFB spores. Hey George, Don't forget your neighbor to the west, West Virginia, has a mobile autoclave to sterilize AFB containing (or suspected) equipment. More states should do this, especially the cobalt irradiation. Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 09:48:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I am glad it was George that raised the following questions... > My topic might be: Russians (Are they Carniolans?), Who can decide? > Where does one get "true" racial queens, of ANY race? > Does anyone understand honey bee "genetics" > or different "strains" of the same race? > Queen "producers" versus queen "breeders"? Each of the above would make an extensive thread in it's own right, but I have some pointers that may show us where the answers lie, rather than definitive answers. The Russian bee seems to be a bit of a 'mixture' rather than an 'alloy', I have been hovering around the fringes of honeybee genetics, morphometric analysis and behavioural analysis for some years now and a few things are stating to gel in my mind. The parentage of the Russian bee is unusual and I think it has come about because two or three strains that started to diverge many hundreds of years ago have come together and recombined. (at least that is the interpretation I am currently using). Deciding 'what' they are may happen more quickly than you expect, as some new techniques in DNA analysis are showing ways of identifying characters that are specific to certain races and strains, and the results are in agreement with the morphometric and behavioural techniques that we are already using. 2 or 3 years will see some big advances in this 'new' method. > Where does one get "true" racial queens, of ANY race? Nobody yet can bee 100% definite about the purity of any stock, but I have recent data on 400 AMM stocks that were thought to be good specimens of AMM by morphometry and behaviour shows that less than 1% of them had any Ligustica genes in them at all. (this discrimination can only be made between AMM & Ligustica at the present time, but the principles should apply to other races once we have a sufficient library of the DNA code for more individual alleles.) 2 or 3 years will see some big advances in this library. I would ask list members if they have any verified code for any know honey bee allele that they pass this to me as I am currently collating such data. > Does anyone understand honey bee "genetics" Not fully, but this understanding is increasing year by year. (I know my personal understanding is improving, but I started late) > Queen "producers" versus queen "breeders"? This is one of my hobby horses, anyone can produce or propagate a queen, but BREEDING a queen requires much knowledge and records of the stocks concerned, plus a great deal of tedious testing, selecting the good, along with discarding the bad. A little luck would not come amiss either. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 07:00:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Re: Auction In Linden, Michigan North Carolina also has a system to fumigate hive parts. Normally comb,honey, and frames are destroyed and the rest are fumigated. However, there are still beekeepers that believe there is only one treatment for foulbrood--Fire. Frank Wyatt Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 07:45:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Re: Queen rearing vs Queen Breeding Our industry needs to rely on the scientist and queen breeders to lead us in the direction of the SMR and Hygenic Bees. I feel that this is where our future leads. Our queen rearers need to buck up and quit using any breeder that does not carry the SMR and/or Hygenic traits. Every drone mother hive should also have these traits. I am not a scientist or a genetist, but the quicker these traits are spread throughtout the industry the faster our industry will begin to show resistance to foulbrood and mites. SMR and Hygenic's are not the silver bullet, but represent a leap forward and away from the chemical treadmill. (I sound like Sue Cobey, one of my hero's. The other is Marla Spivak.) I have used SMR and Hygenic breeders in my yards for the last 5 years. I have reduced, but not eliminated chemical treatments by only treating hives that fail my thresholds. Rearing queens from these breeders in my yards have shown me that it takes time to develope these traits in an open mating scheme. Would it not be great to hive a swarm that you were called to pick up and be fairly certain that it has some SMR and Hygenic traits, because every hobbyist and beekeeper in the area, has purchased queens with these traits. Frank Wyatt WG bee Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 07:59:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Probabbly the best clues to the make up of the Russian bee can be found in the March 2003 issue of Bee Culture magazine on page 8 and again on pg. 45. For his monthly column Kim Flottum passed on from his notes the information passed out at both the AHPA & ABF meetings concerning the Russian bee by those working on the Russian project and commercial beekeepers using the Russian bee. >From page 8 of the column: Kim lists the list of bees which Ruttner said comprised the Russian be as: Apis mellifera cecropia (southern greece) A. m. macedonia (northern greece into U.S.S.R.) A.m. sicula (Sicily) A.m. ligustica (Italy) A.m.carnica (Yugoslav area) Quote from pg.45 by Kim Flottum: "Take home message from all this? Russian bees show resistance to both mites, PURE RUSSIAN THAT IS". By the January 2003 national meetings the Russian hybrids had been in use long enough for us to see being crossed with another bee caused big changes in the ability of the bee to handle varroa and tracheal mites. Dr. Tom Rinderer has told me personally from meetings and through direct private email that the percent of Carniolan & Italian found in the samples sent to Ruttner were so low the Russians imported could hardly be called part Italian or Carniolan but you could say a small percent of Italian & carniolan genes could be found . Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 09:33:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Red ants "Have you seen them carry a mite? Record big hives will have ants under them. Is it because the beekeeper doesn't work the hive for the ants or are the ants helping the hive?" Wouldn't it be great to find a kind of ant that liked mites but not bees? The red ants just seem to want the dead bees, there are some aggressive grey ants that try to get into the hives, but the worst are those little black ants which give beekeepers around here as much trouble as Varroa and AFB. They regularly cause hives to abscond. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 08:13:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George said: You have mentioned my name FAVORABLY, and I THANK YOU; and hence I am writing. Always remember BEE-L is a discussion list and a single opinion hardley ever stands alone on a list of over a thousand beekeepers ,researchers etc..(Bee-L is to my knowledge the largest beekeeping discussion list in the world) None of us would ever want to disrespect you George but I need to comment on a couple of the points you raised. > He ordered Italians for me in 1933, and I did pretty good with them for 15 years. I honestly have to take lightly your comments about the Italian bee because in your own words you have not had an Italian bee around your yards for over 50 years. Comparing the Italian bee which was around over fifty years ago and the bee the commercial beekeeper uses today is like comparing a model T. & a new thunderbird. >In 1948, Steve Taber persuaded me to switch my 20 colonies to Carniolans, pointing out that they raised brood 3-4 weeks ahead of Italians in the Maryland weather and would have a much bigger force of foragers who would be ready for "nectar collecting" by April 15th. He was RIGHT! I am going to have to be honest George . I see plenty of good and bad with both the carniolan & the italian bee as all commercial beekeepers do. I use both races. In Maryland the carniolan bee could (and possibly is ) your best choice. In the U.S. the carniolan bee runs a close second to the Italian bee with commercial beekeepers (or beekeepers which keep bees for a living or sideline ). The popularity of the carniolan has increased due mostly to the excellent work of Steve Tabor, Sue Colby and the Ohio Queen breeders years of II work and selective breeding within a closed system. I often wonder what the Italian bee might have evolved into if Ohio queen breeders had put as much work into the Italian bee as they did the carniolan bee. Hmmm. I thank my friend Charlie Harper for taking the time to update the Russian bee program information. I come from the "show me state" and I need to be shown. It is very hard to get me behind a new idea unless you have got a sound idea or program. I stand firmly and proudly with Charlie in saying progress is being made with the Russians. We are learning better every year the management differences and perhaps one day the Russian bee will be common in the U.S.. If not the Russian bee will go the route of the Yugo automoblie and Yugo (carniolan) bee! The point I have tried to make which Michael & Chuck both understand is let us not send the Russian bee down the road of the Yugo without being sure the project was failure. If the Russian/Russian bee will not survive varroa infestation with less treament and need treatment for tracheal mites then the Russian bee will be a hard sell to commercial beekeepers and the Russians will slip into history in my opinion. Let us not keep harping on past failures such as the Yugo bee (Tom Rinderer) and let failure keep us from looking for a bee which will tolerate varroa. Failure in research is part of the road to success if looking for a cure to a disease or a bee which will tolerate varroa. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 09:57:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dann Purvis II Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update In-Reply-To: <000e01c42e1c$fb3f2d00$35bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Are any even looking for a bee which will tolerate Varroa? In short, yes! Read on for the longer version. Others including ourselves are either too busy to respond or feel like Columbus facing another dreaded disease, flat world syndrome!! In my opinion, the only way to find disease tolerance is to recreate a similar breeding environment as the Russian bee which is believed to be a mix of several bees to include a.m. Macedonia. 90 to 120 years is the only missing factor. =20 I am sure that the time factor can be overcome. Use natural selection as a selection tool and speed it up with instrumental insemination and closed population breeding group theory. 50 to 150 colonies may or may not yield results and you will spend a lot of time and bees/money to find out you didn=B9t put the needed tools in your genetic tool box (gene pool). Likewise, an overly evaluated selection process will do n= o more than steal time and limit the genetic variance that can be chosen from= . You have to roll the genetic dice many times to identify true survivors (disease resistant). That means killing loads of bees. It means using a selection management plan that is dummy proof. Dead or alive is pretty simple!!! =20 We try for a 50% yearly loss within a much larger population. Adding drone brood for most of the brood producing period will provide for much higher V-mite population. A little creativity and forethought will provide for other disease pressure. And one other point that I am taking for granted-ABSOLUTELY NO CHEMICALS. Did I say no chemicals? I am not including other extremely important factors such as different mite populations and micro-climates/environments which must be considered. I believe the inconsistent results among honest vocal beekeepers can be explained by these factors. I understand producers can not easily do the same as a very few dedicated, committed and cash poor BREEDERS. However, it is possible. We have seen the results. Consistent 85% population/line survival without chemicals is our goal. I feel confident we will reach it sooner than later. And for yo= u purely analytical types, I can=B9t give you exact time. Bottom line is you have to provide the genetic tools (adequate genetic diversity) for a population, keep disease pressure upon this population and select FROM the survivors. I believe adding in a simple, standardized evaluation of honey production, i.e., percent weight gain will provide an effective validation while at the same time make the bees marketable. We add in identified feral and other open mated production survivors via instrumental insemination, if favorable. The biggest question is not =B3can it be done?=B2, but =B3can it be done in spite of fragile egos and financial stresses?=B2 Sorry so long-making up for all my lurking. Dann Purvis Purvis Brothers Apiaries, Inc. 5122 Trackrock Camp Road Blairsville, GA 30512 USA 706 781 3128 (voice and fax) 706 781 3376 dannzann@alltel.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 07:51:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Red ants In-Reply-To: <200404301958.i3UGVqdr021459@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim Vaughan wrote on 30 April (and included pictures) of an ant: >This kind of red ant doesn't seem to bother the bees. A nest has set up >shop next to a hive and they dismember and take away bees that have been cleared from the hive. The first picture, though fuzzy, indicates that the ant has a "beard" which keeps dust from blowing up into its mouthparts. That characteristic and others puts the ant in the genus Pogonomyrmex, perhaps in the species subdentatus. My book provides an origin for the scientific name: The bearded bearded one. That ant belongs in the subfamily Myrmecinae, most species of which forage on seeds and dead insects, not on sweets. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************************ * Everything has been said [and/or done] before, but since nobody * listens, we have to keep going back and begin all over again. * Andr Gide -- Nobel Laureate in Literature, 1947 ************************************************************************ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 19:33:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave said: > 2 or 3 years will see some big advances in this library. I > would ask list members if they have any verified code for > any know honey bee allele that they pass this to me as I > am currently collating such data. Technophobes look away now. The entire honeybee genome, all 200 Mbases, is freely available for download from here: http://www.hgsc.bcm.tmc.edu/projects/honeybee/ At the moment it is presented as files of DNA sequence, and hasn't yet been annotated. To give you a flavour, this is the start of chromosome 1: >gnl|Amel_1.1|Group1.1 TTTACGCCCGATTCCCAACACGGTCGCCTCTTATTATTTTCAAATAATTC TTCTTTCTTTTTGTCGTACATTTATAATTGGCATCTTGCCGCATCTACTT ATGTTTTCTCTATTGCGCTGCATCTCGAGCTGTACTCGCATGTGCTTGCT TTTTACTCTACATATACATATATGTGGAGCAAAAGAGAAATCAGATAAAT AGCAAACATATTTGTAATATATCTTTTAAAAATATGAATTTCGCAAGCAG ..... If you want to look in the honeybee sequence for a specific gene then one way to do it is to pick up the sequence of the gene from a related and well-studied organism (e.g. fruit fly - Drosophila) from Genbank (e.g. from here, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Genbank/GenbankSearch.html) Then use the 'BLAST' program at the honeybee site, paste in your known gene, and ask the honeybee database for something similar from honeybee. It will likely find the honeybee version for you. In theory, as the Drosophila genome is well known, you could identify most honeybee genes this way. Knowing the code doesn't mean that you understand the organism of course. However, it gives scientists the tools to achieve a lot in the future - and the honeybee race comparisons you are interested in will be one of these applications. Gavin - not a honeybee geneticist, just a plant one. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 14:36:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Red ants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With no chemicals in the hives I sometimes get nucs that don't hold a queen and everything in the world shows up. I have moved all the hives high enough(concrete block 16 inches) to give me a control on the family ants. I hope someone can come up with one aunt that we might train to eat mites. Something like the cleanner fish in the ocean. If anyone has knowledge in this area and can give me some directions I will not put that aunts into the flames of the torch. I use a self lighting propane torch for bug controls. Michael Housel Orlandobee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 16:54:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Research: Russian Bees and the Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A Happy May Day to All: Does anyone know if research modeled, underway, or completed is being directed toward "hive cleaning" behaviors associated with SHB larvae, i.e. the capture and carrying out of the hive SHB larvae? Such behavior currently exists, I have observed it in hives containing the SHB but it seems to be effective only in strong hives. This behavior was observed among my Italian honeybees. I am curious to know if this trait is expressed amongst the Russians; if so, what is the comparison with Italians and others? Is it stronger, weaker, no significant change? This same expressed trait and behavior is used to remove wax moth larvae and other ginvadersh from the hive and again is effective with wax moth larvae only in strong hives, although it does exist in weaker hives but with negative overall results- the wax moths usually win. If anyone has witnessed such behavior, Russian bees removing SHB larvae, I would be interested in these observations as well those with other honeybees, SMR, Minnesota Hygienic, etc... Regards, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 21:55:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: AHBs in the U.S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Among the articles in Mays issue of American Bee Journal is one on Africanized Honey Bees in the U.S. In the past some have speculated that the bees would mix with European bees on their way north and the more aggressive traits would be bred out. So far that doesnt seem to have happened. Because the bees spread in the U.S. hasnt taken place exactly as was originally predicted that scenario has been brought up again on another bee chat group. What I found interesting in the ABJ article is that it *may* be rainfall of all things thats been a barrier to AHB spread here in the U.S. Rainfall over 55 inches, distributed evenly throughout the year, is almost a complete barrier to AHB spread. Total annual rainfall alone isnt a barrier; AHBs have been found in areas of the Tropics with higher rainfall, But in areas with high rainfall distributed throughout the year, [the pattern] of AHB spread fit perfectly. The article in American Bee Journal was reprinted from the March 2004 issue of Agricultural Research Magazine. For those who do their beekeeping over the internet the article can be accessed here. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar04/bees0304.pdf (By the way, Bob, I was certainly glad to read in the last issue of ABJ that you guys were able to pull your bee truck out of its mess and keep it from going down into the quarry.) Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 10:38:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Gavin points out the honey bee genome availability at... http://www.hgsc.bcm.tmc.edu/projects/honeybee/ And Gavin further says... > Knowing the code doesn't mean that you understand the organism of course. > However, it gives scientists the tools to achieve a lot in the future - and > the honeybee race comparisons you are interested in will be one of these > applications. However it is not the overall sequence that will be the most help to breeders... We need to identify the differences between individual alleles that can occur at specific points in the Mitochondrial DNA, so that the racial make up can be traced and worked backwards to the point of origin. The alleles also need to be correlated to the behavioural characteristics. It is a library of these differences that I am trying to construct, luckily we are dealing with sequences (microsatelites) that are relatively short (around 300 base pairs) rather than whole genes. At least by working this way we are dealing with manageable chunks. I hope that I do not give the impression that it is a 'walk in the park', but it is not insurmountable... We are a long way from assembling strings of known alleles in order to synthesise a gene, but if we can cross bees and establish the actual alleles present that amounts to much the same thing, but increases the amount of assessment required due to large numbers of 'possible' allele arrangements. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 22:30:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dann said: I am not including other extremely important factors such as different mite populations and micro-climates/environments which must be considered. I believe the inconsistent results among honest vocal beekeepers can be explained by these factors. I agree! But like we talked about in our last phone conversation Dann moving the program horizontal and upping the amount of hives involved to around a thousand and then select survivors should speed things up for you. It will be interesting to see if you can bridge a 100 year survivor process in a few years with your program but I believe you will! Due to my shoulder injury I will not be coming to see you next week ( but will as soon as able). I will call one evening next week. Keep me posted on the Georgia beekeepers project and give me a call if you need my help! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:34:02 -0500 Reply-To: whitehousefarm@mindspring.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carol Mark Subject: additives for sugar syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII i have read that adding a tablespoon of vinegar to a gallon of table sugar/ water mix ( 1:1 or 2:/1) is helpful to the bees in digestion. can anyone comment on this practice? Carol Mark whitehousefarm@mindspring.com Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:00:16 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Breeding better bees, an update (long) In-Reply-To: <200405011145.i41BjkIR021813@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Frank Wyatt wrote: >"Would it not be great to hive a swarm that you were called to pick up and >be fairly certain that it has some SMR and Hygienic traits, because every >hobbyist and beekeeper in the area, has purchased queens with these traits." > > This goal is beginning to be realized in my part of the Western Piedmont of South Carolina. We are relatively isolated, no interstates and only a few commercially pollinated orchards over 20 miles away. Feral bees mostly died out in the mid 1990s. Thanks to my late friend Paul LeRoy, a long-time beekeeper and mentor to as many people as he could find, we have an association of hobby and sideline beekeepers who are oriented to using disease resistant bees. For 7 years I have used no treatment except screened bottom boards, some drone removal, mineral oil/beeswax coatings inside the hive bodies, and {except for the last 2 years) formic acid and essential oils. I have sucrose octoanate and Api-life VAR available, but haven't needed them yet. I open-feed syrup and pollen substitute in winter (when we have flying weather more days than not). Every time I open a hive I pipe a paste of pollen substitute, syrup and vegetable oil onto the bars. I've only had between 20 and 50 hives most of the time. Each year I've lost fewer hives to mites or other disease. Poorly mated queens in outyards and from late supercedures have been my biggest problems. Winter survival has been 90% or better. Hives showing severe mite or mite-disease damage (usually August-Sept) don't get to reproduce. Every year our beekeeping club has brought in queens from various sources of hygienic, SMR, Russian, etc. stock, tho only the poorest queens are replaced. Good older queens are reserved in nucs for weak hives, queenless hives, or future spring swarm increases. I have sought to bring in maximum genetic diversity as far as sources, races, and strains. I allow my strongest spring hives to stay a little crowded and make swarm cell splits for increases and replacement queens for myself and others during optimal drone season.The apparently dominant Russian characteristic of keeping viable queen cells handy makes splits possible whenever drones are available. Hives are near the house and queens are clipped (and of course marked), so few swarms get away unnoticed. We collect the increasing numbers of feral hives and swarms and add them to our genetic soup. Some outyard queens are mated wild and stay in the pot if they meet my primary criteria: Survival, survival, and gentleness (I prefer to work without smoke or suit or even hood, since I stay small enough that slow is OK). In our last 4 terrible weather years I have harvested only very lightly, as I've yet to breed the starvation-resistant bee. If we can get one or two decent weather years I'll have a better idea of production, tho at this point it's a tertiary selection criteria. I am a wildlife biologist, so I understand a good bit on genetics, behavior, and population biology, but I am not using scientific methods here, tho I do keep notes on each hive and can track the sources of most of my queens. My goal of 'assisted evolution' of disease resistant bees, at least for this area, seems to be working. Since some of the original 1997 lines of commercial Buckfast and Italian bees, now mongrelized, have survived without Apistan, Coumaphos, Terramycin, menthol, or Fumadil, I believe I'm getting past the "wait 3 years and they'll crash" point. Of course there may be a 10-year crash point, and our 5 years of hot dry weather may have inhibited the mites, tho I expect every year the percentage of disease/mite-resistant genes should be increasing. Now if we just had a big grant and some grad students.....Carolyn in SC, Lakelands Beekeepers Association :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 23:37:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: additives for sugar syrup >.... a tablespoon of vinegar to a gallon of table sugar/ water mix........ helpful to the bees in digestion. .....comment on this practice? This is from a post by Richard Bonney on Bee-L several years back: "Many years ago a researcher found that if no natural nectar was coming in, feeding syrup containing cream of tartar (or vinegar) caused dysentery, shortening the lives of the bees to one third that of bees fed plain sugar syrup." The entire post can be read here: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9712D&L=bee-l&P=R1827 Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 05:18:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 1 May 2004 to 2 May 2004 (#2004-123) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good morning from a very wet Southern Virginia. Regarding adding vinegar to sugar solution for feeding bees: This might be a futile effort since it does not take long before the feeder oxidizes becoming somewhat acid, same effect as if adding vinegar. One can smell the presence of vinegar in the feeding containers when opening the hives. (Another advantage of not smoking!) Best regards and God bless. Dr. Rodriguez __________________________________________________________________ Introducing the New Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:46:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re Russian Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed One thing that I have heard very little press on about the Russian bees other than someone stating that they are the only legal importation of a new strain of bee since 1920 is the fact that this new genetic material (imported bee) has generally been unbred. It is a wild type! The lines we have used for close to 100 years in the states have been carefully selected over this time period to reflect the needs of the US industry. The analogy could be made that these strains are similar to the lineage of breeding for race horses. They have very specific breeding lines of carefully selected traits. I think ( though I admit that it is only a speculation) the bees we have been used too are very predictable based on the selection of, and removal of, of genes regulating behavior (swarming, attitude, honey production, spring buildup, etc). Our standard lines of bees are a controlled population with limited expression of traits which provides a very predictive behavior. Now arrives this "Russian bee" with a whole set of genes, behaviors, traits that make for a different bird. These genes will be intermixed with other strains over time. My experience with these bees, match my experience keeping bees in N. Africa with the Tell bee. One sees variability in behavior, a less predictable wild strain! This makes it more difficult to put them to a regular set of management activities as one colony looks like this, act like this & the next is very different. The addition of the Russian genes may have an unpredictable effect on our "bees" but what I've heard both anecdotally and from the publications of scientists working with these new populations (SMR, Hygienic, Russian, Buckfast) they are affecting us all because of the distribution of drones. Recognition of the distribution of genetic material bby the drones has elevated its status somewhat! It would be interesting to have seen what effect and what timeline introduction of the yellow italian bee had on beekeeping at the turn of the century (1875-1925) as it replaced, mixed with the European lines favored during langstroth's time. Mike Griggs http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 06:18:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 1 May 2004 to 2 May 2004 (#2004-123) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The use of alochol added to the hives feeding for the winter has always been a question for me. The fish in the north have an alochol thinning in the blood. My question is; Would adding alochol to the feeding in the fall for the winter consumption help the bees live longer thur the hibernation in the cold climates? Michael Housel Orlandobee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:15:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 1 May 2004 to 2 May 2004 (#2004-123) In-Reply-To: <4C402E1B.796B4D69.023E1E12@netscape.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Pedro Rodriguez wrote: > Regarding adding vinegar to sugar solution for feeding bees: This > might be a futile effort since it does not take long before the > feeder oxidizes becoming somewhat acid, same effect as if adding > vinegar. One can smell the presence of vinegar in the feeding > containers when opening the hives. The acid formed is acetic acid (vinegar) from the fermentation of the sugar syrup. Fermented syrup is bad for bees as noted by Allen. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:32:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Feeding Bees Comments: To: Michael Housel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Housel wrote: "Would adding alochol to the feeding in the fall for the winter consumption help the bees live longer thur the hibernation in the cold climates? There is much to be read about Fall and Spring feeding in the BEE-L Archives and other informed and respectable sources of beekeeping information, far too many to mention here. Much work has been published in journals and magazines regarding the feeding of supplemental additives to honeybees. Lately queries about additives such as salt, alcohol, vinegar, and starch have popped up on the BEE-L. You must bear in mind that we are dealing with an insect, a simple insect with a rather simple digestive system. IMO, such additives even of a conservative nature, have a detrimental effect upon honeybees. Some of these additives will shorten honeybee lives other additives will flat out kill them. I would only feed my bees proven feeds such as syrup composed of crystallized sugar and water, purchased 67% sugar syrup, or high fructose corn syrup, HFCS. Feed sugar in the fall and either sugar syrup or HFCS in the spring and when appropriate, pollen substitutes. Pollen substitutes and patties are of benefit prior to naturally available sources of pollen. These are not replacements for natural pollen and should be added to the hive a few weeks prior to the availability of natural pollen. Again, you should not add additives such as those mentioned above to pollen substitutes or patties for the same reasons, shortened lives or an even faster mortality. By the way, honeybees do not hibernate, much can be learned about the clustering behavior by searching through the BEE-L Archives, various beekeeping magazines, beekeeping books, and other respectable beekeeping related sites on the Internet. Regards, Chuck Norton Nortonfs Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:35:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Re: Auction In Linden, Michigan I want to correct my previous list: North Carolinas uses a ethylene oxide chamber that will accept drawn comb and frames, but not honey. All honey should be extracted before treatment. Samples are taken before treatment and after to evaluate the success of the treatment. It is suggested that frames that have heavy amounts of pollen should be cut out and destroyed after treatment. Frank Wyatt :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 22:59:38 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Subject: Re: Research: Russian Bees and the Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck wrote: "If anyone has witnessed such behavior, Russian bees removing SHB larvae, I would be interested in these observations as well those with other honeybees, SMR, Minnesota Hygienic, etc..." I was priveledged enough to be associated with Jamie Ellis, a Ph.D student at Rhodes University in South Africa. He worked on SHB extensively. You may be interested in following that up. A summary of what he did is at the following address: http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Personnel/Ellis.htm Hope that is helpful, certainly fascinating! Regards, Paul Collett Makana Meadery/Department of Entomology, Rhodes University www.iqhilika.co.za Apis mellifera capensis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 17:09:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Subject: Varroa resistance There has been much talk of late on Varroa resistance and I am wondering as to the state of progress because many seem unsure. I understood that Varroa resistance was a thing of the future and that research was still being conducted in this field - largely by Harbo and Rinderer. What level of resistance has been established? Are resistant bees available commercially? Does resistance mean "resist" or "tolerate"? Has anybody sequenced the SMRP, or does anybody know exactly how it works? Does it neccessarily prevent mite reproduction? Does anybody know the status of SMR progress in A.m. capensis in South Africa? Sorry to ask all these questions at once, am just interested in the progress on varroa resistance. Regards Paul Collett Rhodes University Department of Entomology/Makana Meadery South Africa A.m. capensis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 17:48:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Feeding Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Apologies to All, A little technical tweeking is in order for my last post: I should have included pollen supplements in my discussion when talking about pollen substitutes and the time of application is not necessarily limited to early spring as pollen supplements can be used at other times of the year. Also, it would have been more correct to say, "I would only feed my bees proven feeds such as syrup formed or derived from crystallized sugar mixed with warm water,..." than "I would only feed...syrup composed of crystallized sugar and water, purchased 67% sugar syrup,.."etc. I am sorry for any inconvenience or missunderstanding that I may have caused. Regards, Chuck Norton Nortonfs Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 18:09:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Bottling Tank MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for a bottling tank. About 15 or so gallons. If anyone has an extra or wants to sell one, just reply to me and not the list. If you have a larger one I would consider that size. Lionel Evans North Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 08:27:26 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Subject: Re: Research: Russian Bees and the Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "If anyone has witnessed such behavior, Russian bees removing SHB larvae, I would be interested in these observations as well those with other honeybees, SMR, Minnesota Hygienic, etc..." Hi Chuck/All I sent you a page a few hours ago about SHB research, and I have just remembered another link, it has some good pictures. http://www.calacademy.org/science_now/archive/headline_science/bee_beetle.ht ml Regards Paul Collett Makana Meadery/Department of Entomology, Rhodes University www.iqhilika.co.za Apis mellifera capensis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 05:14:18 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Newbie question In-Reply-To: <200405032148.i43LJE80006767@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed First time beekeeper, replacing one that's leaving to become a full time mommy. We lost a weak hive this weekend. I have a question on something I saw on a brood frame. There were several emerging workers, the head poking out of the cell. Perhaps 7 or 8 on each side, but dead. I also saw a dead worker head in a cell. I've had a chance to see a worker emerge and don't remember any workers helping her emerge, so why would emerging workers die in such a position? Thanks in advance, Howard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 13:09:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Newbie question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Emerging worker bees emerge by themselves without any help. Not knowing any details, I might suspect death by CHILLING while trying to emerge in the absence of cluster warmth on a chilly day. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 13:59:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Newbie question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/4/2004 8:22:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, howard@HOWARDMCGINNIS.COM writes: I also saw a dead worker head in a cell. that usually can mean no more food. did the hive have stores of nectar and pollen? Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, Italian, 35 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 23:16:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: Newbie question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In a message dated 5/4/2004 8:22:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, > howard@HOWARDMCGINNIS.COM writes: > I also saw a dead worker head in a cell. I can't claim to know the answer to this but my beginner's guess would be that wax moth may have exposed the bee before it was ready to emerge. Perhaps a more experienced beekeeper may care to comment on my guess. Steve Rose Derbyshire, UK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 19:43:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, I would love to respond in great detail to your questions but due to recent rotator cuff surgery typing is a real problem. I will try a few short answers and perhaps others on the list will fill in the blanks. >There has been much talk of late on Varroa resistance and I am wondering as to the state of progress because many seem unsure. To my knowledge and from discussions with the worlds best researchers we have got colonies which can be left untreated for a few seasons but the bee which can handle varroa forever without treatment has still not been found. >I understood that Varroa resistance was a thing of the future and that research was still being conducted in this field - largely by Harbo and Rinderer. In the U.S. yes. Harbo is looking past the Russian bees and bees with the SMR trait for complete varroa resistance. He is now looking at PMIB. What level of resistance has been established? Too early to tell as the Russians have only been out a few years and the SMR trait introduced into your own bees has had varying results. Are resistant bees available commercially? Hybrid SMR and Hybrid Russian are availble in the U.S.. >Does resistance mean "resist" or "tolerate"? I would say tolerate. Consistant low varroa count is a indicator. Many times the queen has had bees which tolerate varroa and the *daughter queen* workers are not varroa tolerant. Which continues to puzzle us! Does it neccessarily prevent mite reproduction? Yes. We know varroa has almost no reproduction in certain colonies of bees. We call this SMR. (suppressed mite reproduction) > Does anybody know the status of SMR progress in A.m. capensis in South Africa? The SMR trait has been seen in all the melliferia (certain hives) which have been looked at. I would think the SMR trait would also be found in certain capensis hives. SMR by itself has not proven to be the answer we had hoped it would be. >Sorry to ask all these questions at once, am just interested in the progress on varroa resistance. I am only responding Paul because I have been out of town for two days and you had not received a response. You ask complicated questions which could take pages of reply. If the list can not fill in the blanks with new posts I would suggest searching the archives for old posts of mine on the subject. Above is about all I can say now about your questions because of the typing problem. I was forced to spend last night in an out of state motel room as the pain from my surgery was almost unbearable and could not drive. Bob Ps Fellow BEE-L people please ask questions of the list in regards to my posts ( instead of me directly) till my condition improves so others can help with answers. If questions remain unanswered I will try and find a way to reply. Thanks! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 12:55:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Morris-Knower Subject: Comments on Hive & Honeybee Website Greetings: I'm a librarian at Cornell's Mann Library, and am currently working on an article on the recently launched Hive & the Honeybee-- an online library of the most important historical beekeeping literature in English. The url for the website is http://bees.library.cornell.edu. I'm hoping that some of you might be kind enough to take a bit of time to explore the site (if you haven't already) and email me any reactions/comments you have (to jpk15@cornell.edu). I'd like to be able to use a bit of this reaction in my article. Thanks for your help. Jim Morris-Knower Public Services Librarian Albert R. Mann Librarian Cornell University Ithaca, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 19:23:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Newbie question In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040503192944.03aa0ea0@mail.e-visions.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <5.2.0.9.2.20040503192944.03aa0ea0@mail.e-visions.com>, Howard McGinnis writes >There were several >emerging workers, the head poking out of the cell. Perhaps 7 or 8 on each >side, but dead. As George said - chilling. When I leave colonies without treatment to see how well they overwinter, I often find them weaker than I wanted and with dead workers like yours. I suspect the colony loses bees due to weakening and shortened lives and just cannot keep the brood warm enough as the cluster contracts. They recover after treatment (I use a thymol based one) and where necessary, additional frames and bees from the strongest colonies. > I also saw a dead worker head in a cell. Usually starvation, but in large numbers in a foodless area of the frame. >I've had a chance to see a worker emerge and don't remember any workers >helping her emerge Not done for workers - queens, yes. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 01:41:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers: I suppose you guys down there in the Lower 48 are putting on another hive box already. Yesterday, May 4, up here in Anchorage, latitude N 61, I saw my first dandelion blossom of the season. Today, I saw maybe a dozen or so more. Some have commented in the past on the high price Alaskans receive for their honey. Now you know why. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 07:57:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees In-Reply-To: <200405060541.i4657q66022142@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen wrote: > Beekeepers: > > I suppose you guys down there in the Lower 48 are putting on another hive > box already. Yesterday, May 4, up here in Anchorage, latitude N 61, I saw > my first dandelion blossom of the season. Today, I saw maybe a dozen or so > more. Some have commented in the past on the high price Alaskans receive > for their honey. Now you know why. Bath, Maine- latitude 43.9 and also just saw the first dandelions. Another example of how local climates are not dependent on latitude alone. We had a hard freeze yesterday and near freezing temperatures are forecast for tonight and tomorrow night. Bill Truesdell bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 08:07:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Dandelions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dick, I'm in CT and I marked the little yellow guys as showing up on May = 1. Don't feel too bad. Dickm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:12:35 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anthony Morgan Subject: Re: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen wrote: > Beekeepers: > > I suppose you guys down there in the Lower 48 are putting on another hive > box already. Yesterday, May 4, up here in Anchorage, latitude N 61, I saw > my first dandelion blossom of the season. Today, I saw maybe a dozen or so > more. Some have commented in the past on the high price Alaskans receive > for their honey. Now you know why. Here at N 63 The willow is long over, maple is finished, coltsfoot nearly over, dandelions are out as are wood anemones. The winberries are starting to flower and the wild raspberry buds are fat and will soon open. In the garden all the spring bulbs are either over or in full bloom and cultivated and wild fruit trees are beginning to bloom. Temperature low twenties and the bees are working hard with ten frames of brood and their first extra box! Everything is 3 to 4 weeks earlier than normal. cheers Tony ------------------------------------------- Anthony N Morgan, Frsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Hgskolen i Sr-Trndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ------------------------------------------- Lat 63 deg 26 N. Long 10 deg 45 E Apis mellifera carnica ------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:41:18 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Dandelions blooming In-Reply-To: <409A2815.4080502@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yesterday, May 4, up here in > Anchorage, latitude N 61, I saw > > my first dandelion blossom of the season. > Bath, Maine- latitude 43.9 and also just saw the > first dandelions. > > Another example of how local climates are not > dependent on latitude alone. Laval (Qubec), close to Montreal, latitude 45.4. I saw first dandelions on May 1st in grass receiving south sunshine. All hives (3 of them were on 1 box only) pass through winter. I only gave 500 mL of syrup sugar per hive in late March/early April since singles were very light. Then I hope to harvest a respectable (in term of quality) floral dandelion honey. Floral origin will be certified by pollen analysis. Herv Yahoo! Mail : votre e-mail personnel et gratuit qui vous suit partout ! Crez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Dialoguez en direct avec vos amis grce Yahoo! Messenger !Tlchargez Yahoo! Messenger sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 08:53:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees In-Reply-To: <409A2815.4080502@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: Bill Truesdell > Bath, Maine- latitude 43.9 and also just saw the first dandelions. > > Another example of how local climates are not dependent on latitude > alone. Dandelions have been blooming here since the first week of January, and I still have a few in the yard.... sorry, I couldn't help myself.... Dave in South Carolina The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 09:12:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joan Davis Subject: Re: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees Here in Knoxville, Tennessee (not sure on the Latitude)I worked my bees yesterday and most hives have at least 3 supers of honey with 80% capped. If the honey flow keeps up, I will have to extract and put the supers back on. I hope this doesn't make you folks up north feel bad but we have had it pretty bad for the last two years in the honey production. I just hope that everyone has a great honey year. It makes the hobby a lot more fun when you get a return for all the hard work. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:20:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gilles and Lee-Ann Organization: Turtle River Apiaries Subject: Re: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen wrote: > Beekeepers: > > I suppose you guys down there in the Lower 48 are putting on another hive > box already. Yesterday, May 4, up here in Anchorage, latitude N 61, I saw > my first dandelion blossom of the season. Today, I saw maybe a dozen or so > more. Consider yourself fortunate, Here at the 51 parrallel in Manitoba, I've yet to see any dandelions blossoms. There are very few weeds growing period. The grass is making an effort to grow despite lack of rain and a manitoba maple (box elder) is struggling to blossom in front of my home. The bees have had only several decent flying days to gather pollen from willow and aspen. However it has been worse before. Wintering survival is generally considered good from most locals I've been in contact with. I think it has much to do with the strength of colonies going into winter, the bees looked great last september and winter was generally mild with a good snow cover. We only had 2 weeks of 40 below in January. Some fortunate southerners were able to experience what minus 40 with severe wind chill is really about during the CHC and MBA convention in Winnipeg. The reward for surviving these winters is a beautiful summer with about 8 weeks of nectar flow from start to finish depending on the weather that can allow a strong colony to haul in more honey than most can imagine, 150-350 lbs and sometimes more. Too bad we still can't get US package bees. Someday. Regards, Gilles :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:53:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gerald Herrin Subject: Re: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees In-Reply-To: <409A2815.4080502@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here at 37 degrees N latitude the dandelions are gone, black locust is blooming as is dutch clover in my pastures. Temperature 83 F yesterday. Gerald Herrin geraldherrin@earthlink.net On May 6, 2004, at 6:57 AM, Bill Truesdell wrote: >> Beekeepers: >> >> I suppose you guys down there in the Lower 48 are putting on another >> hive >> box already. Yesterday, May 4, up here in Anchorage, latitude N 61, >> I saw >> my first dandelion blossom of the season. Today, I saw maybe a dozen >> or so >> more. Some have commented in the past on the high price Alaskans >> receive >> for their honey. Now you know why. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:24:18 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Bee-Lining Since the spring EAS Journal has gone to press, I can now reveal that EAS 2004 http://www.easternapiculture.org/programs/2004/ (August 9-13 at Seven Springs resort, just off the PA Turnpike) http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?city=Champion&state=PA&zip=15622-4077&zoom= 4 will host the 2004 "Bee-Quick 500" bee-lining competition. No one may have ever told you, but bee-lining is a competitive sport, with cash prizes, ribbons, trophies, and much more panache and style than boring old honey shows. The rules and other details can be found here: http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/500 jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 15:23:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jesse Anderson Subject: Re: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees I am at 59 degrees N in Fort Nelson. (Mile 300 on the Alaska Highway). I hived my first two packages of bees ever on Monday. It has proceeded to snow all week with temperatures between -5 and 5 degrees Celsius (27- 37 Fahrenheit?) all week. I am a little bit discouraged. Hopefully my bees survive the week and it warms up soon. They were installed in brand new hives with hive top feeders and 1:1 sugar syrup. I have not been out to check them since Monday as they are quite a ways out of town at a friends farm. I figure that it is best not to disturb them while it is this cold. I plan on removing the queen cages on Saturday. The price of doing business this far north and in the interior I guess. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 19:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathleen Darrell Subject: Re: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees In-Reply-To: <200405060541.i4657q66022142@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On May 6, 2004, at 1:41 AM, Dick Allen wrote: > Beekeepers: > > I suppose you guys down there in the Lower 48 are putting on another > hive > box already. Yesterday, May 4, up here in Anchorage, latitude N 61, I > saw > my first dandelion blossom of the season. > Hi Dick and all; Latitude 44N in Ontario Canada, dandelions came out this last week all around us. But we live in a deep sheltered valley, Forks of the Credit, no dandelions yet Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 19:58:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: EXCESSIVE QUOTES! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Has anyone else noticed that Dick Allen's post about the first dandelion bloom in Alaska is now in the archives TEN TIMES!?! What is it about DO NOT QUOTE THE ARTICLE TO WHICH YOU ARE RESPONDING that is so hard to understand? Please folks, review the guidelines for posting to BEE-L. Specifically, guideline NUMBER ONE: 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. No further regurgitations of Dick's original will be approved. Disk space and the waste thereof is becoming a hot topic at the U of A. Please keep this in mind. Sincerely, Aaron Morris BEE-L Owner/Editor/Janitor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 21:07:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees Everywhere has it's pros and cons. I've already harvested 100-200 hundred pounds from my best hives, and I've split some hives twice already. Here's a pic of me doing double and triple splits last week http://www.pbase.com/image/28466122 But as you can see from the grass, if it wasn't for the irrigated pastures, residential landscapes and small orchards, these bees would be dead of starvation soon. It's too bad beekeepers don't make the kind of money we are making these last two years normally. Otherwise we could all buy a half dozen locations from Florida to California and north to Alaska, Dakotas, etc..and be real fat cats. But with my luck, I'd spend time and money building up my business and next year the price of honey will drop again! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 00:58:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Dandelions at Latitude N 61 degrees In-Reply-To: <200405061312.i46CFQ8u028902@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all, Quote removal button activated, verified and all seems clear............. All sense of responsibility button activated, verified and all seems clear, so: Realising that this winter was going to be cold and spring long in the coming, I planted Dandelions in trays in a series of lean to greenhouses. The plants have been in flower for 6 weeks and have supplied several pounds of excellent pollen to the colonies nearby. I am working on the next project - how to get the same for the Maples, but am not too clear on how to support the "greenhouse effect" netting. Any ideas. Peter - also in frigid Manitoba - 11 miles north from N.Dakota (49N.?). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 14:05:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Propolis Meltdown! I want to share this incident with everyone; perhaps just reading this post will help to prevent another occurrence of a similar kind. Yesterday, I was down in the eastern piedmont of North Carolina supering hives. North Carolina is famous for its pines and tulip poplar trees and together or apart they are a good source for propolis. I managed to take out of only one hive yesterday enough propolis to make a ball the size of a billard ball, and after finishing the yard I had a ball of propolis the size of a grapefruit to take home. It was after sundown when I finished and headed home; I placed the ball of propolis on the dashboard of my old 84 Ford. Two hours later I was home, a long day. This morning was spent loading my truck with drawn supers, tying them down, and in general getting ready for the day ahead. We are having really warm weather, the sun is hot and there is a wonderful honey flow going on right now. I opened the truck door about 10:30 ready to roll, and smelled the heavenly aroma of propolis. Then it hit me, it was the ball I left on the dashboard and no longer was it a ball! It was a slow moving mass of aromatic goo, which had by the time I opened the door, had entered into every crevice in its path. Ice cubes halted the flow and helped me clean the stuff up, but a lot is still somewhere below the dashboard and will probably stay there. I do have to say that the old girl smells a whole lot better! Regards to all Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:52:25 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.0 required=2.4 tests=AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D338E4907D for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKlx012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0405B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 83917 Lines: 1838 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:54:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Subject: New Mite Treatment Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LeavesI was reading the "What's New" page in Bee Culture and it seems there is a new treatment on the horizon from the UK. Exosect Ltd.. It is described as an "innovative new thymol based applicationf for use on Varroa in beehives." An electrostatically charged natural wax power is used to distribute the thymol compound which adheres to the bees and then is distributed bee to bee and even into brood cells. Anyone have any info? Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 00:06:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: EXCESSIVE QUOTES! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Has anyone else noticed that Dick Allen's post about the first dandelion bloom in Alaska is now in the archives TEN TIMES!?! Why yes.....I noticed that myself. One learns by repetition. In the past, sometimes after a day or so, Ive forgotten the precise wording of previous posts. This one seems to have been burned into my brain. Did you notice on the 6th reply, the post was suddenly attributed to Bill Truesdell? Thats going to wreak havoc for future searches of the archives. Some are going to think Bill has pulled up his roots in Maine and moved on up to Alaska. This happens on some of the unmoderated groups: A post is made by Tom. Dick replies quoting the entire original message. Then Harry responds to Dicks response and quotes both Dick and Tom. Along comes Ralph. Ralph, enjoys poking fun at others. He mockingly replies to Harry by clicking on reply without deleting any of the previous post. So now Toms original post has been sent back an forth over the internet four times and has grown larger at each reply. Tom, also has a sense of humor and makes a kidding reply back to Ralph by sending everything off again. Ralph, while he loves to mock others, is quite thin-skinned. He flies into a rage at what Tom wrote, but since the last person to post prior to Ralph was Harry, Ralph calls Harry a jerk and sends everything back again. Even if the subject is something as shallow as beekeeping, it can get quite complicated after only a few posts. Pretty soon no one is able to keep track of who said what to whom or what the original subject even was since it has probably gotten way off topic anyway. What if the topic being discussed was something deep like religion, or politics. Those who quietly lurk in the background then come out to post their opinions. After awhile it becomes a hideous monster, taking on a life of its own. As there had not been a lot of discussion lately, I sent the post off as a piece of trivia. I was surprised at the number of responses. Just think if Id posted something a bit controversial. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 07:41:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: New Mite Treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have not tried it but I do wonder what happens to the brood when the thymol gets into the brood cells. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Coleene" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:54 PM Subject: [BEE-L] New Mite Treatment > a new treatment on the horizon from the UK. Exosect Ltd.. > distribute the thymol compound which adheres to the bees and then is > distributed even into brood cells. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 12:37:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: New Mite Treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ruary wondered: > I have not tried it but I do wonder what happens to the brood when the > thymol gets into the brood cells. As someone who uses only thymol crystals to control varroa (now going into 7th year), I was interested in this product - also had doubts about the direct delivery of thymol to brood cells (and presumably all other cells!). My understanding is that direct contact with thymol can cause damage to bees - and, presumably, brood. This does not happen when evaporating thymol crystals - the bees are repelled and avoid the container. Exosect (named after the Exoset missile?) have a website here: http://www.exosect.com/solutions/products/exomite_apis.asp Note that trials were only conducted last autumn and with only 33 colonies. There clearly has not yet enough time to judge the impact on colony health. The efficiency of <90% is also less than can be achieved with the application of crystals at the right time. I also note that the powder is dyed pink. Remembering tales of green honey from dyed sugar during the last war, I wonder if there is any danger of pink honey from treated hives. The cost of treatment using this product is incredible, starting at 7.25 per colony and only dropping to 6.25 for quantity. According to their website, two packs are required for each treatment and treatments are required in the spring and the autumn. I make that 25 (plus postage) per colony per year assuming the reduced price! Compare this with thymol crystals at around 32p per treatment. I received this pricing info from the company: Prices All prices quoted include VAT at 17.5% but not delivery for which a charge to cover postage should be added. For one pack to treat one hive 7.25 For two, three or four packs 6.75 each For five or more packs 6.25 each Delivery All packs of Exomite Apis will be despatched within 3 working days of receipt of your order by second-class post. You should therefore normally allow 7 working days from ordering to delivery within the UK including the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. Postal charges These are based on rates prevailing as at 1st March 2004. For one pack of Exomite Apis 0.46 For two packs 0.69 For three packs 0.91 For four packs 1.25 For five packs 1.68 Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:18:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Beekeepers Struggle To Save the Buzz To the List: One of the nicest and industrious beekepers of our times, Ann Harman has along with other Virginia beekeepers made news, in the Washington Post: "Beekeepers Struggle To Save the Buzz", By Michelle Boorstein, Washington Post Staff Writer; Sunday, April 25, 2004; Page C07 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39944-2004Apr24.html Regards, Chuck :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:22:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gerald Herrin Subject: Queen Replacement In-Reply-To: <007801c434f0$e8e78960$6cb487d9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A question for those wiser than I: On an over-wintered hive, I noted that the queen was failing to lay large amounts of brood (a bit here, a bit there). The bees looked healthy (no deformation of wings, there seemed to be a low mite infestation level). The bees were covering maybe three to four frames of a nine frame deep hive body. The queen was found. I deduced that I had a failing queen (she was maybe two years old). The hive had not exactly thrived the past summer. Therefore, I killed the old queen and requeened with a newly purchased Buckfast queen. Due to inclement weather, it was six days before I could check on release of the new queen. The queen was still caged with attendant bees also alive, the candy was almost eaten through. I manually released her, and I noted no evidence of balling the queen. She casually looked around, sat on my finger actually, and then as I put my finger between frames, she ran off down the frames. Now, seven days later, I find no larvae in the hive, an old opened queen cell, and an unmarked, large, light colored queen on the frames (the Buckfast queen was marked). Can anyone enlighten me on the sequence of events here? I can imagine a two or three scenarios to account for what I have found. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated. Gerald Herrin geraldherrin@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 23:37:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Flea beetle controlling compound with stunning residue periods. In-Reply-To: <000d01c4346d$257d8840$1b78ead8@coleene8roq280> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Flea beetle controlling compound with stunning residue periods - as well as being a substance that is highly toxic to honey bees has been given authorisation for use. Info. may be gained from the following file. > http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/pmra-arla/english/pdf/reg/reg2004-06-e.pdf The information on pg. 29 - 32. It indicates concentrations of the insecticide may show up in pollen and nectar in concentrations that exceed the measured acute oral LD50 for honey bees. Also - what are the thoughts on allowing such a compound onto the market with such high residue time periods - running into thousands of days. Do such time periods not harp back to times when Mercury containing pesticides was still pushed as a good thing to dip onions in. I think that I have seen this situation before somewhere - and Bayer did not come out too well either. Crossed fingers, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:53:05 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Queen Replacement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit snip >Due to inclement > weather, it was six days before I could check on release of the new > queen. snip > Now, seven days later, I find no larvae in the > hive, an old opened queen cell, and an unmarked, large, light colored > queen on the frames (the Buckfast queen was marked). Can anyone > enlighten me on the sequence of events here? The most probable scenario is that the old queen was just starting to be superceded or was in the process of being superceded. They had started a queen cell but you did not see it when you looked for and killed the old queen. Now it is 13 days later and you have a queen (you do not say if it is laying). The bees have killed your introduced one (Buckfast). This happens more often than beekeepers think and you have only found it because you had marked your bought queen. If you had not marked your queen, you would most likely have thought this young self set queen was the one you bought. What to do? Well at least let the self set queen start laying some brood to keep your hive strength up. Later you can decide if you want to again try introducing a Buckfast. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 08:58:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Queen Replacement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Gerald & All, A guess is about all you will get because as you say several possible scenarios are possible. >I manually released her, and I noted no evidence of balling the queen. She casually looked around, sat on my finger actually, and then as I put my finger between frames, she ran off down the frames. The big drawback to the above method of release (which I use myself with Russians) is you need to observe for at least five minutes. Less if the new queen moves into an area of older workers. Nurse bees normally accept even new queens without an introduction period. .>Now, seven days later, I find no larvae in the hive, Assuming she started to lay right away the only larva you might find would be four days old (still very small). At times even mated queens take a few days before laying however I have direct released queens which layed and egg within the first five minutes. I believe you should *normally* at least find eggs after 7 days *unless* the queen was not mated. An unmated queen could be a possibility. > an old opened queen cell, and an unmarked, large, light colored queen on the frames (the Buckfast queen was marked). The above is the most likely reason your Buckfast queen is missing. The hive *honored* the lone queen cell and later dispatched the Buckfast queen or the newly emerged queen dispatched the buckfast queen. I still believe if you look carefully now the next time you look at the hive you will find eggs from the new unmarked queen. If the new queen is large, normal looking and laying a good pattern you might consider leaving her as the time to add honey supers in Missouri is fast approaching (if not allready on for Black Locust). If she is punny looking and the cell she emerged from is small and dinky then I would consider a replacement queen. Because you dispatched the old queen the hive might have selected a correct age larva for her replacement . Not all queens the bees raised by the bees are poor but many raised from failing hives are for sure. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:40:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Flea beetle controlling compound with stunning residue periods. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To Peter, Pollinators, Beekeepers, and The List, A partial copy of Peter's link is below. Please note that studies were done in the United States and Sweden, the UK, France, Germany, and Canada, also of importance is the simple fact the canola and rapeseed require the honey bee as its primary pollinator, pollinators beware! Regards, Chuck "Regulatory Note - REG2004-06 Page 29 6.1 Effects on terrestrial organisms Clothianidin was determined to be highly toxic to the honey bee, Apis mellifera, on an acute oral basis with a LD50 of 0.00368 g/bee. The transformation products TMG, MNG, and TZMU were determined to be of relatively lower toxicity to the bee, with an acute oral LD50 of > 152 g/bee, > 153 g/bee, > 113 g/bee, respectively. The transformation product TZNG was determined to be of moderate toxicity to the bee, with a LD50 of 3.95 g/bee. Field or semi-field studies conducted in Sweden, the United Kingdom, France and Germany as well as in Ontario (Canada) and Minnesota (United States) indicated that there were no significant impacts on honey bees compared with the controls. All of the field/semi-field studies, however, were found to be deficient in design and conduct of the studies and were, therefore, considered as supplemental information only. Furthermore, the results of most of these studies indicated that residues of clothianidin, when used as a canola (rapeseed) seed treatment insecticide, were expressed in pollen and nectar of the crop plants (or collected from foraging bees) in concentrations that may pose a risk to honey bees and other pollinators. The effects on honey bee hives from chronic/long-term exposure to clothianidin residues are unknown. "Regulatory Note - REG2004-06 Page 31 Non-target terrestrial invertebrates Clothianidin is very highly toxic to honey bees, with a 48-hour acute oral LD50 of 0.00368 g a.i./bee (= 3.68 ng a.i./bee). The transformation products TMG, MNG, TZMU and TZNG, however, were of relatively lower toxicity to the honey bees. Field or semifield studies conducted in Sweden, the United Kingdom, France and Germany as well as in Ontario (Canada) and Minnesota (United States) indicated that there were no significant impacts on honey bees compared with the controls. All of the field/semi-field studies, however, were found to be deficient in design and conduct of the studies and were, therefore, considered as supplemental information only. Moreover, the results of most of the studies indicated that residues of clothianidin, when used as a canola (rapeseed) seed treatment insecticide, were expressed in pollen and nectar of the crop plants (or collected from foraging bees) in concentrations which exceed the measured acute oral LD50 to the honey bee. The effects on honey bee hives from chronic/long-term exposure to clothianidin residues are unknown. It should also be noted that clothianidin is very persistent in soil, with high carry-over of residues to the next growing season. Clothianidin is also mobile in soil. Given the foregoing, the risk that clothianidin seed treatment may pose to honey bees and other pollinators cannot be fully assessed, owing to the lack of sufficient information and data. Clothianidin may pose a risk to honey bees and other pollinators, if exposure occurs via pollen and nectar of crop plants grown from treated seeds. " "9.0 Regulatory decision 9.1 Regulatory decision Technical grade clothianidin and the associated end-use product, Poncho 600 Seed Treatment Insecticide, for seed treatment to control flea beetle on canola/rapeseed and to control corn rootworm, corn flea beetle, black cutworm, seed corn maggot, wireworm and white grub on corn have been granted temporary registration under Section 17 of the Pest Control Products Regulations, subject to submission of the following data: Batch data Storage stability data (product chemistry) Genotoxicity studies Developmental immunotoxicity studies Passive dosimetry or biological monitoring study Field crop rotation study Analytical methodology for sediment Long-term hydrolysis study Leaching study Acute oral toxicity to bumble bees and leaf-cutter bees Chronic toxicity to hives of honey bees under field conditions Acute oral toxicity to the red-winged blackbird, house sparrow and mallard duck Toxicity to wild birds under field use conditions." :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 17:48:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dandelions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/05/2004 05:04:33 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > Another example of how local climates are not dependent on latitude alone. They also depend on altitude. I was in the Bavarian alps a couple of days ago and the dandelions were in full bloom at <48N but >800 metres, but here at 52N at about 100 metres they are mostly over. A couple of years ago in Austria at around 47N there was a patch of dandelions in full bloom at the end of July at around 2500 metres. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:33:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jesse Anderson Subject: Multiple eggs in one cell. Hello, I am very new to beekeeping and I need some input. I intalled a package last week and it proceeded to snow here on and off and has been quite cool. I openned up the hive to inspect it and remove the now empty queen cage and discovered that I had multiple eggs in some of the cells. I have read that this only happens with laying workers, but I am fairly certain that I saw the queen. I got a really good look at her. Does anyone have any suggestions? If she is in fact a laying worker, then there is really no point in replacing her, I should just try to get another package I think. I appreciate any advice. Jesse :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:45:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Queen Replacement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why did you have an old "Grandmother" queen in your colony this spring? Obviously, the bees decided to change "mothers", raised a superseding queen, and destroyed your new Buckfast Marked queen as NOT NEEDED. I don't know you, but you showed some intelligence by getting a MARKED queen so you might know what is going on in the future. What would I do from today on? I would mark that queen "GRAY or SILVER" now just so I know that her genetics are totally unknown, and let her do her best for the remainder of the nectar flow period; and then I would buy a new queen of my choice of races, either Italian or Carniolan (but never a hybrid like a Buckfast) MARK her, and requeen that colony before September 1st and you might have a great colony in 2005. Perhaps you are a beginner or novice. During our 20 year "fight" with mites, bee researchers have learned so many things that were never known before even by successful commercial honey producers, A major find is that ALL queens, irrespective of their egg laying ability, when they are over one year old can no longer produce enough Queen PHEROMONE to prevent her bees from swarming; and hence most "enlightened" hobbyist beekeepers and the majority of commercial honey producers now REQUEEN every year, and some migratory beekeepers requeen twice in a single year. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Starting my 72nd year of beekeeping near Washington, DC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:55:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in one cell. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jesse & All, >I openned up the hive to inspect it and remove the now empty queen cage and discovered that I had multiple eggs in some of the cells. Check again in a week. Caged queens sometimes take a few days of laying to settle down. Also: Many times bees to make up packages come from queenless hives and perhaps a laying worker was present in your package bees. Queens come from queen nucs for packages and the bees are shook from donor colonies at yards maintained for the purpose. A beekeeper in Florida used to fill his packages with bees brought into his honey house with supers (orange flow)and trapped on a huge screen.. >I have read that this only happens with laying workers, but I am fairly certain that I saw the queen. I got a really good look at her. Queens certainly can deposit more than one egg in a cell but as a general rule if you see multiple eggs a laying worker is responsible. >If she is in fact a laying worker, then there is really no point in replacing her, I should just try to get another package I think. A laying worker is a worker bee which lays eggs. Usually happens after a hive has been queenless for quite awhile. They look like a worker and not like a queen. If your *queen* continues to lay multiple eggs in cells I imagine your package supplier will ship you another queen and not a complete package. If your package contained laying workers shook in by accident then perhaps a complete package will need to be sent to solve the problem. If in fact a laying worker was present in your first package you need to shake those bees out away from the hive before installing your second package. If your supplier only sends bees then you will need to recage your queen and reintroduce her. Check in a few days and I bet the queen you saw will be laying one egg per cell. Ask the list for help again if you do not understand the above. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 23:17:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in one cell. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/10/2004 6:32:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, vair2@YAHOO.CA writes: If she is in fact a laying worker, then there is really no point in replacing her, I should just try to get another package I think. A new queen will sometimes lay a few eggs in a cell until she gets going. Are the eggs at the bottom? On the side? Does every cell have multiple eggs? If all cells are filled by laying workers, that means a worker has laid those eggs not the queen. Your Queen would be a drone layer, who had run out of sperm. Look at the laying pattern....all of the side of the frame. If a small amount of those cells had multiple eggs, don't worry. The queen should be fine. Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, Italian,45 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 22:09:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: The joy of Italians versus Buckfast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone.=20 Here in central Pa I am anticipating the black locust bloom in a few days. Saw a few locust blossoms 60 miles south of here in Carroll County, Maryland.=20 This week I moved my nucs I bought out into a 10 frame deep. The Italian queens had over three frames of brood with some emerging. One of the queens had 4 =BD frames filled with brood. This is doing well since they were shaken out of the boxes into the nucs on April 16. I could hardly believe it except my pictures of emerging bees tell the story. I did find out it will be a while before I requeen with another Buckfast queen. After dealing with the Buckfast the Italians are a real joy. =20 =20 Thomas Martin Shippensburg, Pa :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 22:36:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in one cell. In-Reply-To: <200405110035.i4B0SF5S024842@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jesse, Often queens will lay more than one egg in a cell when: 1. Learning to lay eggs at the beginning of her laying career - may be due to lack of experience in control of laying procedure 2. When there is a shortage of ready, polished cells to be laid in - as often is the case when a package of bees are limited in number and can only prepare a restricted brood area. They are of normal appearance, unlike the disparate, disorganised egg arrangement produced by laying workers. The situation should rectify itself - leave the package to itself for a few days. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 07:07:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in one cell. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I see this quite often with very young queens, especially if they are confined in a nuc. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 00:33:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in one cell. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jesse: >I am fairly certain that I saw the queen. I got a really good look at her. My theory is that you have a really good queen thats ready to get busy, and the workers themselves arent yet up to speed. My hives now and then have some cells with multiple eggs early on in the season, and all the eggs are *on the cell bottom* as they should be if laid by a good healthy queen. If you saw your queen and now are seeing eggs, I think you are ok and wouldnt fret just yet. If you saw a queen and she is now dead, you probably wouldnt see laying workers showing up immediately. According to the bee books, it usually takes a couple of weeks at least for workers to begin laying. A few years back I had a nuc that became queenless, so I decided to wait and see just what would happen. It was almost three weeks before the workers laid eggs. The laying workers in the nuc didnt just lay multiple eggs *on the side of the cells*, but deposited some of them on the face of the comb, too. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 00:07:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jesse Anderson Subject: Re: Multiple eggs in one cell. Thanks for your help guys. I am certain that I saw the queen. I will check again in a week and be sure that things are straightened out in there. The eggs were laid in a piece of comb about 4" by 8" that the bees had built around the queen cage. The cells with multiple eggs seem to be randomly scattered throughout this comb, but there is a larger concentration of multiple egg cells around the edges. The problem with scattering my bees and then re-intoducing the queen is that it has been so cold up here (59 deg N, Fort Nelson)that I would lose most of my bees. I also am starting with new Pierco plastic frames, so there is no established comb, unfortunately. I guess that all I can do right now is wait and see. Jesse :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:48:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nixon Ronald W NNVA Subject: Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" When I manually released my new carniolan queen into the hive (of Italians) they balled the queen. I received the new queen on Friday. Prior to placing the caged queen in the hive I dispatched the old, marked, queen and transferred the new queen (attendants removed) to an introduction cage which has mesh on all four sides. I then placed the caged queen in the middle of the brood nest. Yesterday (three days later) I manually released her onto a frame and watched the situation for about five minutes. Everything seemed OK, the bees started feeding her, etc., but I noticed she seemed a little nervous - moving quickly on the comb and hiding at the bottom of the frame (unlike the other queens released that day). I also noticed a couple of bees sort of gripped the queens abdomen with their front legs and waggled their abdomens. Then after a short while - a couple of minutes - some bees ganged up on her and started trying to sting her. The ball with her in the middle fell to the bottom board, by the time I got enough frames removed to get to the ball and get the bees off her the damage was done. Just as a note, just prior to the bees balling the queen, I noticed some of the workers attempting to sting each other. I am sure that there was no other queen in the hive. What could I have done differently other than pray God save the queen? Ron Nixon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:57:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ron & All, > When I manually released my new carniolan queen into the hive (of Italians) they balled the queen. I can only add a few suggestions: Introductions of a different race queen into a different race hive can at times be problamatic. Wait a couple days longer would be a suggestion before releasing. > Prior to placing the caged queen in the hive I dispatched the old, marked, queen and transferred the new queen (attendants removed) to an introduction cage which has mesh on all four sides. I then placed the caged queen in the middle of the brood nest. Over about to emerge brood I hope and not eggs & larva.. > Yesterday (three days later) I manually released her onto a frame and watched the situation for about five minutes. Why did you not simply remove the screened cage and leave her with the newly emerged bees or am I misunderstanding? >Everything seemed OK, Then after a short while - a couple of minutes - some bees ganged up on her and started trying to sting her. I know a chance of getting a sting on fingers is real but right then you need to enter the picture and recage the queen. Never use gloves when handling a queen bee *in my opinion*. .>The ball with her in the middle fell to the bottom board, by the time I got enough frames removed to get to the ball and get the bees off her the damage was done. I personally have never lost a queen by balling while watching. Books say balling death takes around thirty minutes (estimate). I have never seen over up to say 15-20 worker bees involved. Brush the bees away from her with the finger nail side of your fingers and then pick up the queen. Practice picking up drones as you would a queen before attempting picking up queens. Once you get adept at reaching in and picking up a drone then picking up a queen becomes very easy. > Just as a note, just prior to the bees balling the queen, I noticed some of the workers attempting to sting each other. My guess would be some of the bees had accepted her and some were rejecting her. > I am sure that there was no other queen in the hive. The only way to be sure is a frame by frame search before introduction as two queens in a hive happens. Also the requeening of an established hive is not easy. I always leave the hive queenless for at least three hours (if possible) before the queen cage is put in. Overnight is better but you really need to look for queen cells the bees have started when leaving queenless for long as plenty of eggs to raise a new queen are available usually when you dispatch the old queen . Hives will at times honor the queen cells and try to kill a new queen until the bees realize the queen cells have been destroyed and they are out of larva to start new queen cells. Good luck with the next queen! Maybe the things I have said will help. We all lose a few queens during introduction! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:03:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron, Much has been said within the BEE-L Archives about requeening, Bob Harrison recently talked about the difficulty of introduction and requeening Russians, http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa? A2=ind0310C&L=bee-l&D=1&O=D&P=956, http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi- bin/wa?A2=ind0404D&L=bee-l&P=R1712&D=1&O=D, and http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0205C&L=bee- l&P=R204&D=1&O=D. Think about it! Requeening is an unnatural thing that the beekeeper does in order to assure that the continuity, productivity, and genetic characteristics of a hive are maintained in a manner consistent to the beekeepers own particular requirements. When I do splits I requeen at the same time as taking away the old queen with the split by opening the candy side of the queen cage and place the cage with the candy-part higher or physically "up" in the honey riming the top part of the middle of the brood nest. This works well and is about 90- 95% effective since the candy is the factor that allows the delay in the releaseFThe harder the candy the longer the release. This is only for the same race from the same queen breeder! When making a lot of splits such procedure is often necessary, versus a physical release. When a queen is missing from a hive by searching and with the additional indications of lacking any uncapped brood or eggs I will usually release by hand after 5 days of introduction with a careful watch of the activity surrounding the cage placed on top of te brood nest frames prior to release. If there is aggressive behavior to the queen in the cage I just will not release her and will wait two days or longer and then repeat the procedure by placing the queen cage on top of the frames and observing. Requeening within the same race after introducing the new queen over a 3 day period is IMO not of a sufficient time; I look to 5 days minimum before a manual release. When requeening and introducing a different race or hybrid it is my recommendation for a longer introduction period around 7 days minimum. That means not uncorking the queen cage upon introduction, it also is suggested to release during the midday when the major force of workers are out foraging. When checking the activity of surrounding bees while the new queen is caged you can fairly well predict in advance whether or not the new queen will go to the ball, or will she be just another Cinderella and have to work hard the rest of her life carrying on the responsibility for the success or failure of the hive. Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:14:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nixon Ronald W NNVA Subject: Re: Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks for the responses, They are helpful. I am supposed to be getting a new queen on Thursday. I think that I will do a more extensive search for queen cells in the hive, wait 5 days prior to release in lieu of my traditional 3 days, and lay the cage on the top bars to check for aggression prior to release. Maybe it will be more successful next time around. Thanks, Ron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:35:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carole Braden Subject: reporter seeks tagalong on swarm rescue. I'm a reporter working on a story for the New York Times. It's about the option of having a beekeeper rescue a hive from your home if you have a swarm move in. I'm looking for someone who will let me tag along on a rescue--ideally a complex one, during which a wall will be dissembled or cut away to get at them. This will be the frame of a story about wild honeybees, their importance in nature and our lives and why it's not the best idea to call in someone to exterminate them, even if it's the cheaper alternative. I am hoping to do the reporting over the next week or two. Best case scenario, this rescue would take place within driving distance of New York City, but if you have an interesting project taking place further away, I'd like to know about it. Also, if you have stories of past rescues that might be of interest, please contact me. Best, Carole Braden 917-921-7979 carolebraden@yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Requeening In-Reply-To: <2E399E1EA385D341989B5462BA9A198F760ED1@nnvaexch.snews.spea r.navy.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2C6A4AAB; boundary="=======44BE3BEE=======" --=======44BE3BEE======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2C6A4AAB; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I am sure that >there was no other queen in the hive. >Ron Nixon How sure are you? You looked for a second queen, or shook them through an excluder? Mike --=======44BE3BEE=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:06:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Bob Harrison said... > Introductions of a different race queen into a different race hive can at > times be problamatic. Wait a couple days longer would be a suggestion > before releasing. I will take this a little further and give you a pointer to a method developed by Steve Taber, Albert Knight and John Dews. This method may take a little longer, but if followed precisely will result in 100% introduction of queens that are of totally different race. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/queenintro.html#ak_st_jd It does require a simple 'gadget' (observation board) that has a few details on http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/obsboard.html The Observation board page is in need of a re-write and looks a little scruffy. The 100 mm dimension for the window space has been found to be too short for some types of cage... The revamped page will amend this to 120 mm. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 07:25:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nixon Ronald W NNVA Subject: Re: Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >How sure are you? You looked for a second queen, or shook them through an >excluder? >Mike Mike, The reason that I am fairly confident that there was no other queen is because I have only three hives and they are in my back yard, so I go into them more than I should probably. This particular hive came through the winter with just a handful of bees so I know what was in there. Having gone in the hive probably once a week, they have not built any queen cells. I did not shake them through an excluder though. I did not look for a second queen just prior to requeening, maybe because I only heard of two queens cohabiting in the last few months since joining BEE-L. I believe it happens. I guess it's just another case where knowledge didn't travel from my head to my hands. Dave, I haven't had a chance to check out the web pages, but I will. Thanks, r/Ron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:04:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: hbee Subject: insurance adjuster and have a claim In-Reply-To: <003601c437f8$6690cfc0$5864fea9@orac> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! We received the below message. How would "you" answer his questions? "I am an insurance adjuster and have a claim where 384 hives were loaded on a truck that rolled over. We have no idea how to establish a value or find a replacement cost on these hives. We don't want to cheat the man that owns them because we are Bee Ignorant. I am asking for anyone that could help me to give us a reply. The hives weighed about 115 lbs each and were 2 story. They were 95/8 " high. He says they had about 60lbs of honey in each. What do we ask? Where can we find an average cost or value? Is there a registry of any type where people register their hives and the quality?" Kind regards, Herb/Norma www.mainebee.com www.stonycritters.com "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." Douglas Adams :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 22:43:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: insurance adjuster and have a claim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Herb & All, The insurance adjuster needs to work the price out with the beekeeper. I suggest he pays what the beekeeper asks and fast. A bigger problem exists if the beekeeper only wants the money and not the hives or clean up! Those hives now belong to the insurance company along with the clean up charges. If the beekeeper did his own clean up and he wants the damaged equipment then the insurance adjuster has room to negotiate. If the bees are still at the crash site then insurance adjuster has a real problem as the beekeeper can turn down the load of bees and demand payment. Then the insurance company owns the mess. I speak from experience as the 500 hives which overturned in Kansas City (was on CNN 2003) was bought by my partner from the insurance company. The beekeeper (name withheld) did not want the damaged beehives or the cleanup problem. The insurance adjuster quickly accepted my partners very low offer for the damaged bee hives and doing the clean up. Hobby beekeepers help out but if you live in a sub division placing 500 hives in your back yard is not an option. Large trucks and loaders are needed to cleanup the mess *unless* the fire dept. kills all the bees and the boxes are placed in a dumpster for the landfill (has happened many times). Herb I will advise the adjuster by email if he needs help but the adjuster bulling up to a large migratory beekeeper will not work. Losing a entire load of bees right now for the beekeeper can be costly. The adjuster needs to see first if the owner/beekeeper will even accept the damaged beehives. If so then deals can be struck If not then the adjuster has a serious problem. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:16:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all In this thread on May 12, I said... > The Observation board page is in need of a re-write and looks a little > scruffy. The 100 mm dimension for the window space has been found to be too > short for some types of cage... The revamped page will amend this to 120 mm. Since then I have re-written the page, with additions, to bring it up to date. The new version can be seen at... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/obsboard.html Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:53:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Subject: Scutellata queen rearing Hi all I am doing some queen rearing experimental work in South Africa and am having some difficulty. It is Autumn now and the Eucalyptus is just coming into flower. Night temperatures do not drop much below 7 degrees C, daytime at about 25 degrees C. I performed splits on the hives in question, taking the queenright halves away to another location (230km away). 3 days after removing the queens, I inspected for and removed queen cells. Instead of grafting I cut portions of comb containing new eggs from a hive of choice and secured them downward facing in the middle of the brood nest of these cell builders. Usually when I do this with capensis hives, the bees build queen cells from this cut comb without problem. This time however, the bees turned the eggs into workers instead of queens. I removed these worker cells and repeated the experiment. Once again, the bees made only workers and not queens. All the time, I was ensuring that no other queen or queen cells were in the hive. The bees even made "dummy cups" but did not lay in them, but refused to turn the imported eggs into queens. What could cause this behaviour? Could it just be the environmental conditions? Should I hence repeat the work in spring? What should I do with these bees that now have no queen, given that South Africa does not have the package bee industry that the rest of the world does. Many thanks Paul Collett Rhodes University Department of Entomology/ Makana Meadery Grahamstown South Africa A.m. capensis A.m. scutellata :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:05:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Subject: Splits done with Queen cells-OK? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here are the questions first, the following is the background: 1. Should I have re-queened as part of the split, or is it acceptable to split with capped queen cells? 2. Queenless in both houses? 3. New queen for the hives, or let them hatch out? Thanks for the helpJK I had anticipated doing a split on at least one of my hives from last year. The hive in question was producing prolific Queen Cells (QC), both at the bottom of the frames, as well as some on the combs (ion Both Brood chambers. I had switched the bodies in last February, and in again in March when I did an examination. Five days ago, I added seven frames of foundation when I split the hive. I pulled the requisite frames of brood; two capped; two capped/developing and one predominantly eggs. Each of the frames contained capped queen cells, although two at the bottoms of the frames appeared to have been "flattened" a bit during the manipulation. In addition, I added two frames of honey. All went into a new body, with three frames of foundation fitting out the balance. I could not, and have not seen the queen in the split (new box) at any time. Yesterday, (around 19.30) I performed a thorough search (all but shaking them through an excluder) for a queen in the new hive. The queen cells that were "flattened" were gone, and I noticed one QC in the middle of the frame that appeared to have the cap chewed off, but adjacent QC's seemed to be intact, in addition, the mammoth cell on one of the other frames appeared even larger than before (it was capped at the time of the split). The bees were going to town, drawing out comb, and making honey. Very docile. As for the parent hive, She was a new queen last year, as the original queen from the package was in the process of being superseded. They have gotten all but four frames filled in the super with honey; this is all on foundation they have to draw out mind you. They are also starting to draw out the foundation placed in the bodies during the spilt. However, capped brood, and brood about to be capped, but no eggs that I could see, and even more importantly, the existing brood frames were being packed with honey right to the developing brood. This is in spite of the new foundation added to the hive. Even more disconcerting was the apparent absence of eggs on the drawn out foundation (about 4-5mm drawn). I did not locate the queen, but as it was approaching 22.00, and be bees were getting very agitated, I put everything back, but not before noticing a mammoth QC on the east side of the third frame in from the West (3E). I "number" all hives from East-to west, and then designate sides of the frame accordingly. In a both I plan to go frame-by frame, and put each in turn in another body to search for the queen. This is the best I can do short of shaking them down. Those are the facts as I can recall them w/out going out to get the journal from the shop. Hope this helps I tried to post this from email, but JIC, I posted the normal way... Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 02:05:37 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Scutellata queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Paul, I must first preface my comments with the rider that I know absolutely nothing about Scutellata bees so what follows may be absolute garbage in your situation, but for what its worth here's my 5 bobs worth. The conditions you describe are very similar to what we experience here in Western Australia. The bees are different of course, but autumn requeening in the manner you describe is a risky business with any hive bees, especially if no fallback source of queens or cells is available. From what you have said , it seems you have very few choices:- 1. Start contacting as many other beekeepers as possible in your part of the world to source an emergency supply of cells or queens. Lots of risks attached to that too but you are the best judge there. 2. Graft some queen cells into a strong cell starter colony (or better still, several starters), and then, if successful, transfer these (with cell protectors!) to the queenless colonies. 3. Transfer some sections or complete frames of brood containing eggs or young larvae into the queenless colonies, but in the normal orientation and let the bees work them into the vertical queen cell orientation. 4. Accept the cause is lost if the colonies have declined past the point of no return, and return them to the original apiary and paper them back on to their original colonies. Good luck mate! Peter Detchon PS Western Australian season is coming to a close too, but queen cells or mated queens are still available here. Your biosecurity regulations may not permit an import, and you may not want Italian -style stock, but if you can and you do, contact me off-list and I will assist you to source them from here.This approach may salvage your splits until they can be requeened with Scutellata in the spring. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:03:32 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Scutellata queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Instead of grafting I cut portions of comb containing new > eggs from a hive of choice and secured them downward facing in the middle > of the brood nest of these cell builders. Usually when I do this with > capensis hives, the bees build queen cells from this cut comb without > problem. Maybe with the scutellata you have to put the comb in in the "normal" position. i..e up and down. They may then draw the queen cell. Worth a try. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Poncho - regret that misinformation is being circulated In-Reply-To: <200405131705.i4DGUS7O012507@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Find below info. that came into my mail box via. Manitoba Provincial Apiarist, Rheal LaFreniere. I regret also that this material appears to be on the public market that apparently have with no answers at the moment to so many basic questions, and hope that other future substances are supplied with adequate research data before release into the field environment. The attached list of questioning requests associated with this Provisional registration is IMHO incredible to read. I also regret the residue levels quoted when associated with the time periods indicated. They appear protracted to say the least. Also hope that Agriculturalists heed the advice and bury or dispose of seed in a manner that removes potential harm to other wildlife and that they follow the advice of not using the pesticide too often. Also crossing my fingers as yet another toxic substance is released into the honeybee realm. Regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: Veldon Sorensen [mailto:veldon.sorensen@bayercropscience.com] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 2:56 PM Subject: Poncho Reg Note You may find websites and circulating e-mails in bee circles indicating that PMRA has registered a compound - Poncho or clothianidin - that is harmful to bees. The source of the material is an editing omission by the PMRA in the Clothianidin Regulatory Note. This error was noted during editing, but failed to get corrected in the final report that PMRA released to the public. PMRA has agreed this was an error and are in the process of making the necessary change. Until that time, you may see this false statement being used, which states: "residue levels in pollen and nectar are above the LD50 level" (when in fact the residues are far below) and this wrong quote is now being circulated among beekeepers. Here is the calculation provided to PMRA: A LD50 of 0.00368 ug/bee is determined in tests in which bees are given sugar water spiked with test compound. Each bee ingests approximately 20 uL of sugar water. Sugar water has a density of 1.3 mg/ml, so each bee actually ingest a mass of 26 mg of solution. If the dose ingested was 0.00368 ug, then the concentration of this sugar solution is 0.00368 ug/26 mg = 142 ug/kg or ppb. Thus, a concentration of 142 ppb is required for bees to obtain a LD50 dose, and the field concentrations are in the range of <1 to 5 ppb in nectar and pollen. Hope this helps and we regret this misinformation is being circulated. veldon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 21:55:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Scutellata queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul said: This time however, the bees turned the eggs into workers instead of queens. I removed these worker cells and repeated the experiment Once again, the bees made only workers and not queens. All the time, I was ensuring that no other queen or queen cells were in the hive. My guess is the hive is queenright. As you no doubt know scut queens move around the hive when the hive is disturbed. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:34:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Flea beetle controlling compound with stunning residue periods. "Clothianidin" I am sure that this seed treatment on conola seed is illigal in Canada. It was taken off the market three or four years ago. I grow canola and remember using this stuff, It was deadly to handle, very toxic, but excellent to control the very damaging flea beetle. There is a new treatment, Vitazex as a trade name,not as leathal, but holds a much shorter residual towards the flea beetle, two weeks. If it doesnt kill a flea beetle after two weeks, then I'm sure the bees are safe. After that the only option is a douse of insecticide. I'm going to look in my pesticide bookelt and conferm Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:44:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jack Rath Subject: Mitegone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I saw Mitegone advertised in Bee Culture magazine this month. Is anyone = using this product who can comment on how it is working. Thanks john :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:47:47 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Poncho - regret that misinformation is being circulated In-Reply-To: <40A41A58.5030802@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > A LD50 of 0.00368 ug/bee is determined in tests in > which bees are given > sugar > water spiked with test compound. Each bee ingests > approximately 20 uL of > sugar > water. As far as I could understand, this kind of study failed to protect non-targeted insects in Europe for (at least) the following reasons: 1. This experience does not take into account by-products of the initial molecule in nectar and pollen. Those by-products are sometimes (often) more toxic than the initial molecule. 2. This experiment only check acute toxicity. Hives weakness or death occur even if foraging bees are not exposed to the LD50 (acute toxicity) since larvae are exposed to chronic toxicity via pollen at far higher levels since they are in devlopment and have a far lower mass than workers (like toxicity measured for adult is different from toxicity for foetus). Thus hives are more sensitive to disease and more often fail in winter, if I understood well. By the way, CDC realesed a study about pesticide in Americans. See: http://www.panna.org/campaigns/docsTrespass/chemicalTrespass2004.dv.html Herv Yahoo! Mail : votre e-mail personnel et gratuit qui vous suit partout ! Crez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Dialoguez en direct avec vos amis grce Yahoo! Messenger !Tlchargez Yahoo! Messenger sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:56:32 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Poncho - regret that misinformation is being circulated > I regret also that this material appears to be on the public > market that apparently have with no answers at the moment to > so many basic questions Well, the (USA) EPA published the document cited below a year ago, so they have had more than enough time to correct any typos or errors, and they use phrases like "potential for toxic chronic exposure to honey bees". EPA documents published under the current administration have become classic examples of the art of understatement, so it is reasonable to say that just about anyone else would say something less charitable. http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/factsheets/clothianidin.pdf Here's a few snippets from the document: Common Name: Clothianidin Trade Name: Poncho 600 Pesticide Type: Insecticide Chemical Family: Nitroguanidine subgroup of nicotinoids U.S. Producer: Bayer Corporation "Clothianidin has the potential for toxic chronic exposure to honey bees, as well as other nontarget pollinators, through the translocation of clothianidin residues in nectar and pollen." "In order to fully evaluate the possibility of chronic exposure to honey bees, a complete worker bee life cycle study will be required, as well as an evaluation of exposure and effects to the queen." "The fate and disposition of clothianidin in the environment suggest a compound that is a systemic insecticide that is persistent and mobile, stable to hydrolysis, and has potential to leach to ground water, as well as runoff to surface waters." "Available data indicate that clothianidin on corn and canola should result in minimal acute toxic risk to birds. However, assessments show that exposure to treated seeds through ingestion may result in chronic toxic risk to non-endangered and endangered small birds (e.g., songbirds) and acute/chronic toxicity risk to non-endangered and endangered mammals." A quick search did not yield any reference to any completed study on honey bees, but I did find one done on bumblebees that claimed "no impact". Please note that the "nicotinoids" group of systemic pesticides also includes the far-too familiar Imidacloprid (Admire, Confidor, Gaucho, Merit, Premier, Premise, Provado...). "Gaucho", "Poncho"... I see a trend here. Bayer seems to be talking through their sombrero to the federales. Putting a "treatment" on seed is nothing but a cheap "value added" for the seed company, a way to coax a higher price from the farmer for the same old seed. Clearly, any farmer who practices IPM is not going to want to buy or apply a pesticide to 100% of his crop, so having it on 100% of his seed is nothing but a waste of money. If the farmer wants to treat seed for a specific planting, he can do so himself "in the seed hopper" on his planting rig. Farmers don't want "Weapons of Mass Malfunction" any more than beekeepers do, and farmers certainly don't want to pay extra money for them when he does not need them. This is a key point about IPM, and the reason why local farmers now ask us to do high-resolution 3D terrain maps of their fields - they have computerized spreaders and sprayers, and are applying fertilizers and pesticides in specific doses to individual areas as small as 3 square meters. (A decade ago, the toughest problem anyone dragged before me was a bailer that had eaten a metal fence post. Now the same farmers want raster images from satellite data vectorized, just so they can get a better crop of hay for their dairy herds. The high-tech toys pay for themselves in a season or two through lower chemical use.) The good news (for beekeepers) is that seed treatments in general are being viewed as of questionable value even in the eyes of people who never met a pesticide they didn't like: http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/cespubs/pest/articles/200324d.html http://paulding.osu.edu/AG/hottopics/seedtreatments.pdf The bad news is that these treatments are being unconditionally "bundled" into the very useful BT treated "Yield-Gard" corn, just like those useless software bundles that came with PCs in the 1990s, consisting of products you had never heard of, from companies you had never heard of, and never heard from again. jim (The result of an unorthodox career path, overused library cards, massive bandwidth, and an oblique view) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:05:04 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Subject: Re: Scutellata queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor said > Maybe with the scutellata you have to put the comb in in the "normal" > position. i..e up and down. They may then draw the queen cell. Worth a > try. On the second queen rearing attempt, I tried that trick too, I tired simply putting a frame of eggs into the hive, still no response. But thanks for the try, our minds work the same way. Paul Collett :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:03:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Subject: Re: Scutellata queen rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The hive is definitely not queenright. They reared 15 queen cells from their own eggs, all of which I removed, and even a week after the failed rearing, checking the hive daily (it is a nucleus box, only 5 frames, hence easy to check) there are still no eggs. I have requeened with a capensis queen in cage with capensis workers today. She is a virgin queen. hope this works. Bob said > My guess is the hive is queenright. As you no doubt know scut queens move > around the hive when the hive is disturbed. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::