From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:49:40 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765F048FC4 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKlf012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0408D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 264930 Lines: 5916 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:50:11 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Oxalic >> I have been noticing several DWV affected bees outside of my garden >> hives. Definitely HIGH mite levels. I cannot use Apistan, much less >> check-mite due to organic restrictions on the farm. (I would not anyway). > Use Sucrocide Jonathan if your organic status needs to be maintained. I'm not sure that the suggestion is based upon accurate information. I don't want to be so pedantic, I get listed in "Who's Whom", but I think that he should check with his certifying agent before he buys any "Sucrocide", lest he commit "organic suicide". :) If he were to use SOE today, he might be putting his farm's organic status at risk. SOE does not appear in the "National List" of substances approved for any organic use, or the "Final Amendments". http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NationalList/ListHome.html Not yet, anyway. While there is a petition pending for SOE as a "synthetic organic insecticide" for "livestock" applications, it is merely a petition. http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NationalList/PetitionedSubstancesDatabase.htm The document above is very clear about one point: "Substances On This Site May Not Be Used In Organic Production Or Handling Before The Effective Date Of Any Final Rule Adding The Substance To The National List." So, the fat lady isn't even humming yet. There is no telling if or when she might sing. And is it just me, or does the phrase "synthetic organic" strike anyone else as a classic knee-slapper? Regardless, I'm pretty sure that spraying SOE on a bee colony is going to result in some serious overspray, and some of the chemical will get on the ground. As it appears that SOE is not (yet) approved as an organic pesticide for any application, I'd conclude that he would not be able to use it in good conscience on an organic farm, even if "only on the beehive". jim (Only bloggers confuse the internet with reality) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 02:38:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 8/16/04 9:29:36 AM, alaskabeekeeper@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Science is not to be disputed. I have heard of but not seen of studies that say the opposite. I did read of one article, in the last year in ABJ, that was recommending honey over sugar and hcfs. I guess it all depends on who you listen to, and really though, how you manage the bees and the queens. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, >> I, with great reluctance, have attempted to "stay aloof" to this subject, but just can't anymore. It reminds me of the good advice of never discussing politics or religion, because you can't win; but I will take one "stab" at convincing all that bees winter best on plain sugar, and worse on ANY honey that granulates easily, such as goldenrod and/or aster. I am OLD, a retired scientist, started my first colony in 1932 (72 year ago) under the leadership of Dr. James I. Hambleton, CHIEF apiarist of the U. S. (Shimanuki's predecessor). Never interested in honey production, but only interested in good colony management techniques, I owned between a 50-135 colonies for most of the last 50 years until 5 strokes during the last decade have forced me back to just 20 colonies which I manage and work from a golf cart, because I can no longer walk. Today was the last day of my 9 day long County Fair, where I put on 4 demonstra-tions/day of opening colonies of bees, finding the queen, showing her the audience and I am dressed in shoes, shorts and tee-shirt with NO VEIL. I got one sting in these 36 demonstrations; done ONLY to prove to the public that apis mellifera is defensive only and not aggressive as shown in "killer" bee movies. Having worked and studied apis mellifera scutellata in both Panama and Venezuela, I know that the AHB is a bee with a "bad attitude"; but South American beekeepers are harvesting tons of honey and using different management techniques than we American beekeepers are used to. The point is that those beekeepers HAD TO CHANGE their management after 1957 when "scutellata" was accidentally released. CHANGE? In 1900 (just 100 years ago) most babies were born at home, NOT in a hospital. Penicillin, although discovered in 1928, was not used until treating World War II soldiers in 1942-45. Keith Malone, Bill Truesdale, and I could not "converse" 20 years ago, because computers were unknown. Today, in my bee "cage" at the FAIR, I conversed via my cell phone with my new 75 year old financee in Las Vegas, NV. Come on Guys, TIME changes things, and you cannot live in 2004 using the same methods, or believing in them, that were the "Bible" 20-30 years ago! Although often SLOWLY, science continues to always move FORWARD and providing betterment to every researched investigation; in spite of the fact that science has not yet found the proper treatment for the Varroa mite, as science as not yet found a cure for human cancer; but GIVE US TIME. Back to the subject of wintering on goldenrod honey, or any crystallizing honey, or ANY honey - and those facts compared to wintering on sugar syrup feeding! I, being a scientist, have to remind the reader of just what is HONEY, as well as just what is SUGAR (that white stuff that you sweeten coffee every morning), and just what is NECTAR; and lastly, what do bees EAT as their FAVORITE FOOD. The choice food of the bee is NECTAR, and NOT HONEY as most people might answer. HONEY is a winter SURVIVAL food for the bee, just as hardtack was for the sailor or the K-ration for the soldier "stuck in a fox-hole" for a day. What is nectar? Regardless of just what plant provided the nectar, it is primarily 75%-80% water, 20%-23% SUCROSE, and 1%-2% "Unknown things". AND YOU REMEMBER THOSE 1%-2% "UNKNOWN THINGS", because that is where the trouble lies in feeding honey. I have give you a lesson in chemistry. There are 100's of different chemical SUGARS. That one that you use in your coffee or cooking is SUCROSE, a multi-carbon disaccharide. It is also the problem of a diabetic (my dead wife had diabetes), because the body can't "handle" this disaccharide until it is broken down into "simple one carbon saccharides like glucose and fructose", in medical terminology, "blood sugars". The enzyme, invertase splits SUCROSE into the simple sugars of GLUCOSE and FRUCTOSE, which is HONEY. In nature, GLUCOSE is a solid, whereas FRUCTOSE is a liquid. Depending on the nectar source, when the SUCROSE is chemically reduced to the simple sugars of glucose and fructose, one nectar might be high in glucose and low in fructose, or vice-versa. . Those nectars, such as goldenrod or aster, break down into high GLUCOSE sugars which normally are solid, and hence granulate out of their dissolvment in liquid FRUCTOSE. Now, that 1%-2% Unknown Things in nectar "come into play", for they are what is left dissolved in the liquid fructose. Here is a colony of bees beginning the long winter sojourn of just surviving until spring, and the goldenrod honey crystallizes in the comb. It is 30°-40° outside, so bees cannot get any water to liquefy the crystallized GLUCOSE, so they "dine on" the liquid FRUCTOSE and those 1%-2% UNKNOWN THINGS that were part of the nectar gathered back in last summer. Bees don't have any PEPTO-BISMOL or IMMODIUM available to relieve that upset stomach or control diarrhea, so they are SICK, get weak, or may even die. That is PRETTY SIMPLE, isn't it? Let us compare all of the above discussion to the feeding of just plain old garden variety SUGAR (5 pounds for $1.59 in the grocery store). This is just plain old SUCROSE made from sugar cane, beet sugar, or even extracted from starches, but it does not have those 1%-2% UNKNOWN THINGS that nectar might have, and IT DOES NOT CRYSTALLIZE IN THE COMB, hence being liquid available all winter long to the bees as food. Forget what someone wrote in ABJ about honey is better winter food than sugar, and pay attention what paid eminent scientists (dare not name any in fear of NOT naming some famous bee researchers) have found by scientific research. The facts are VERY CLEAR that plain sugar syrup is far and away the best winter feed that any bee can get, far better than any honey! I HAVE SAID IT! Forget "I have said it!", and ask yourself WHY most commercial beekeepers (whose income is dependent on the success of their bees) don't winter their bees on honey, but winter them on heavily fed sugar? Go to the meetings of American Beekeepers Federation of Honey Producers Association and ASK them about wintering bees on sugar syrup. No doubt some of you argumentative souls are going to reply that these honey producers feed sugar because honey prices are high right now; but I am going to ask you do you think you know more than the research scientists? If you say, "Yes", I quit, and maybe the "trees in the forest" will listen to you. I'm TOO OLD for this argumentive "crap", so I quit, and wish every reader a fine year. George Imirie, Ph.D. Scientist Certified Master Beekeeper Author of George's PINK PAGES Author of American Beekeeping Federation Newsletter HOBBYIST TIPS Past President of Maryland State Beekeepers :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 07:37:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Defending Exterminating of Bees In-Reply-To: <001501c487ad$0569ac80$133274d5@DellDesk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Dartington wrote: > There was a problem. A solution was needed. There were two sides - health > of public v. health of bees. So, a case for negotiation. Start by > recognising the causes/strength/rights on BOTH sides - the bees may have > been bad tempered but they were provoked - the colony was located in an > inappropriate place - but the behaviour of the children was out of line and > symptomatic of ignorance of the benefit bees bring to food production and > the environment. I understand the colony was feral, not managed. So it was where it should not have been. Removing feral colonies in buildings can be a messy job, especially in an urban setting. Most beekeepers I know would not handle that under those conditions just because of the potential of stinging incidents and liability. Generally, they recommend a pest control business which has the necessary coverage, and who usually destroy the colony. As far as "provoked", it would be nice to control human nature, especially teen age boys (but then I would have lost all the "fun" of those years, like the ability to be terminally stupid). We still have animals like bears, coyotes, fishers (no relation to Jim but as fierce), wolves (at the border), and cougars (spotted but not confirmed) in our area. The old axiom, that animal rights organizations thrive in direct relation to their distance from a farm, is true in Maine. It was fine to protect the coyote until they showed up in urban settings. Then they are "removed" and sent to the country (where I live). I like the coyote around, since they do not belong to PETA and have effectively removed my deer and woodchuck problem. Bears are becoming a problem in urban areas. It will not be long before they lose their good PR and become pests. So it is nice to be in touch with nature, as long as nature is controlled or well distant. Bees are nice to have around until they sting. Good luck in changing that. Which is why just about every beekeeper on this list destroys a bad queen and does not relocate her. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 07:53:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. In-Reply-To: <7e.569ed4ff.2e599954@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: > I, with great reluctance, have attempted to "stay aloof" to this subject, but > just > can't anymore. It reminds me of the good advice of never discussing politics > or > religion Amen. Great post, George. What amazes me in threads like these is, as I said, anecdotal evidence trumps science. "It works for me" becomes a universal truth. I thought I had discovered the Holy Grail of growing my own bees from splits, but I actually grew bees that were fine for a while but eventually developed problems. Much better to bring in new stock, especially with Varroa knocking down the gene pool. Commercial beekeepers knew this and I thought I, as a hobby beekeeper, could do better. I share George's frustration, since this fall feeding battle has been going on since I joined the BeeList (and led to my wondering why my bees were not surviving like George's and Tony's). It actually was worse before moderation. Gets a bit frustrating. I note that many of the old timers have begun to sit back and let some of the "recurring" posts sit. I can share that frustration. You get to the point of just staying silent, for, in time, the problem will go away and that poster will no longer be keeping bees. It was with great reluctance that I bothered to post. Were it not for several private emails, I would have shut up and enjoyed the summer. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 07:16:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bee Attack In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" In my posting of two days ago, I included the following note: "I hope everyone realizes that newspaper accounts give little or no technical information about such events, so I can only surmise what might have taken place -- with a copy to Eric Mussen, State Apiculturist, who might have some input." ********* Eric responded with much the same message I provided. He wrote: "In theory, when a stinging incident occurs in which 15 or more stings result, that event is supposed to be reported to the County Agricultural Commissioner. The commissioner sends someone to the scene to collect bee samples for analysis. The samples are collected in alcohol and sent to Sacramento, where a mitochondrial DNA test is run on the bees. Usually the sample can be processed within 48 hours and the results made known, if the bees were Africanized (contain "sub-Saharan" mtDNA). "A number of us are on a FAX list, and we are supposed to be notified in advance, so that we don't get caught by surprise. I have received no information on those bees, as of yet (maybe someone is on vacation). AHBs in southern California is not new news. However, I was FAX'ed that the 2004 spring delimiting survey located AHBs in Madera County (a new find), but not in Fresno County. This did not stir up much media response." Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind * is reason. * Thomas Paine, 1794 ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:08:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Natick Honey Subject: poor honey production this summer Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed My 2 hives have so far produced a combined 30 lbs of honey, a rather pathetic effort during a wet and cool summer here in the Boston area. Are other beekeepers in the area faring better? If I choose not to extract, what method to people recommend to store these shallows with honey? Or, should I just extract and get it over with? Thanks! Bee well! --glen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:43:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Organic issues (was Oxalic) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I have been noticing several DWV affected bees outside of my garden >> hives. Definitely HIGH mite levels. I cannot use Apistan, much less >> check-mite due to organic restrictions on the farm. (I would not anyway). Many of BEE-L know I have problems with the whole issue of organic honey. When a person selling "organic honey" spends the money to have his honey tested on a mass spec machine to assure zero problems I might buy in. We all know large scale testing will never happen due to cost. In a recent discussion over " organic honey" over why a hive headed with a queen which had been instrumentally inseminated could not be certified as organic I raised a few other important issues. The person had bought nucs from a beekeeper (frames included) which had used both apistan & checkmite plus terramycin. Of course the future organic beekeeper was not going to use any of those things. Hmmm. Also almost all packages & queens today come from hives in which chemicals have been used. Bees raised in cells in hives which without a doubt fluvalinate and coumaphos could be found with a mass spec machine. Hmmm. I have not fault with beekeepers saying they practice "organic principals" when managing their hives. Advertise not using chemical treatments. Giving beekeepers (and large beekeeping corporations) the right to label honey as "organic" with the type of policing in place today is absurd in my opinion. The whole system is basically on the honor system. Until the person selling under the organic label can prove through testing their honey is better than mine I remain unconvinced. Serious questions: Do you really know the level of contamination in your wax (both environmental and from past beekeeping practices)? Can you say for sure that your bees are not flying over and landing on contamination? (what's in a so many mile rule?) Many illegal dumps are around (especially in the rural country). Is the current honor system enough? (Having grown and sold produce when I see perfect produce & fruits sold at our farmer's market under the organic label I have got doubts!) I grew organic fruit for thirteen years! Is the honey being sold under the organic level really purer than other honey not under the organic level? (Private testing done by a few large beekeepers and not made public says NO!) Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:15:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Organic issues (was Oxalic) Hi Guys, The concept of using bees as qualitative environmental samplers has been around for a decade or so. All that buzzing charges them up and they inspect just about everything so are quite good at bringing back a sample to the hive. And the wax/propolis acts as a chemical sink accumulating the stuff. Which can lead to wax/propolis contamination from the environment alone. If industrial polution can be detected in dust clouds from China, it is probably in my hives that haven't ever been treated. I replaced all the combs in some of my hives when I converted them to small cell size. The small cell comb allowed my bees to coexist with the mites,and the small cell hives overwintered stronger with no loss. These hives were also better producers than my other hives and the queens appeared to fair better. Initially, I attributed many of these characteristics to the cell size. But when I re-established some large cell sized hives on new comb, I saw many of the same characteristics, except for the bees ability to coexist with the mites. Could it be that the clean wax is a major factor in bee health? A commercial beekeeper(King?) in North Dakota has come to the same conclusion and published his observations in the ABJ within the last couple of years. Regards Dennis Thinking that some organic concepts might benefit everyone :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:39:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Defending Exterminating of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- From: "Bill Truesdell" " Removing feral colonies in buildings can be a messy job, especially in an urban setting. Most beekeepers I know would > not handle that under those conditions just because of the potential of stinging incidents and liability. Generally, they recommend a pest > control business which has the necessary coverage, and who usually destroy the colony" We would all agree with that. Saving a particular colony where there is conflict is often not practical. The same with trees on a development site. But in UK the common principle is that for every tree a developer must destroy, two new ones are planted in a more suitable location. So the need to destroy this colony could have been seen as an opportunity for local beekeepers to negotiate a suitable site to locate a replacement hive(s) within the city, from where care and interest in bees could be promoted to the public . In London, bees are kept on the publicly owned Kenwood estate, at Roots and Shoots and various city farms. The number of beekeepers within London is growing. Many county beekeeping associations in UK have sites in public parks. In Paris bees have been kept in full public view in the Luxembourg Gardens since the 1860's - and training courses are run. Amsterdam has the most beautiful bee gardens , where several beekeepers keep hives amongst exotic planting. All these sites do wonders for promoting beekeeping - and help to avoid incidents where holigans attack wild things out of ignorance. Exercising a love of violence for its own sake is not childish fun - it indicates lack of opportunity for the child to learn about the world into which he has been born - where 3/5 of his food is dependent on pollination by bees. I appreciate there are vast cultural differences between USA and Europe that lead to different priorities. But it seemed worthwhile to stress the possible from the incident. 'A good bee is a dead bee' is a crude slogan. Was it Einstein who said:' When the last bee dies, mankind has only five days left'? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:28:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: can the girls find their way home? Comments: To: Suzanne Geisler I would say very unlikely. Perhaps you would have 5%, if anything, showing up at the original hive. Most bees forage within 2 miles radius. They can forage up to 5 miles, but only if they have to. Zach (numbers quoted from my memory and might be wrong from books). Suzanne Geisler wrote: >I keep my two hives about 4 miles from my home. My husband and I pulled our honey tonight and brought the supers home. Will the lost girls who ended up at our house find their way home? > >Suzanne Geisler >winner of the Warren County (Ohio) Fair's Best In Show Bee Product! (cut comb)...big ribbon! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:38:51 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development >> Science is not to be disputed. Science exists and thrives only through "dispute". Without dispute, one has religion or philosophy. The inevitable outcome of "dispute" is that the truth stands up to a beating, and untrue things don't. (That said, a half-truth is like half a brick in that one can throw it further.) >> I did read of one article, in the last year in ABJ, Being printed in ABJ in itself was clear and compelling evidence that what was being said was either not submitted to peer review, or was unable to withstand peer review in one or more actual science journals. With all due respect to my buddy Joe Graham and his fine publication, it is a magazine for beekeepers, and is not a part of the legitimate scientific literature, despite the word "Journal" in the title. >> that was recommending honey over sugar and hcfs. The Canadians have looked at this multiple times in formal studies with controls, statistics, and all the bells and whistles. Bottom line, not a whole lot of difference in physiological advantages, but both sugar and hfcs have the specific advantage over honey of having no indigestible components ("ash"), and thereby better feed for bees that may not be able to fly and void wastes during winter. (I think that these studies were covered by the CHC "Hivelights" magazine, but I don't have a citation handy, and a cursory search of the CHC website found nothing.) To each his own, but the "purity" of stores for overwintering would seem to become mission-critical when one tries to keep bees in locations with winters too long and/or too cold for bees to overwinter at all without beekeeper intervention. jim (In 1995, we realized to our horror that we had created networks and software that facilitated hatred between people - the opposite of the prior 20 years of internet development. This is what happens to everything once you let everyone and anyone participate without restriction.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:18:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Defending Exterminating of Bees In-Reply-To: <001401c48888$36bbe5b0$8b8abc3e@DellDesk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Dartington wrote: > Many county beekeeping associations in UK have sites in > public parks. In Paris bees have been kept in full public view in the > Luxembourg Gardens since the 1860's - and training courses are run. > Amsterdam has the most beautiful bee gardens , where several beekeepers keep > hives amongst exotic planting. All these sites do wonders for promoting > beekeeping - and help to avoid incidents where holigans attack wild things > out of ignorance. Some good ideas for the US. I know there are some public farm (State ag farms) that run hives. Does anyone have info on US gardens or other private/public places that have colonies on exhibit? Who manages them? This would be a nice way to promote beekeeping if State Beekeeping Associations sponsored colonies in public places. Thanks, Robin. Good ideas. May even get some teen converts. When I was in my early teens I did have my first touch of beekeeping by observing a neighbor on a US Navy Base who kept hives, and I always wanted to try it. (However it did not have much behavioral effect at the time. Still a hooligan. Cultural thing. US teens are not as well behaved as British soccer fans :) ) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:47:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "John R. Cunningham" Subject: corn syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another good supplier of HFCS is Chicago Sweeteners. I get mine by the = drum from the Indianapolis office. They have a web site and several = locations where you can pick up an order. John Cunningham Perrysville, IN :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:20:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I did read of one article, in the last year in ABJ, Being printed in ABJ in itself was clear and compelling evidence that what was being said was either not submitted to peer review, or was unable to withstand peer review in one or more actual science journals. Actually many articles in ABJ are subjected by Joe for peer review. All the Lusby's articles were. Dr. Erickson did many peer reviews for ABJ before retiring. Articles which list many people as author are likely to have been peer reviewed. You can find out which articles have been by contacting ABJ as peer review is not talked about in the article. The commercial beekeeper solution to overwintering on Goldenrod is to simply feed a couple gallons of fructose (usually with fumidil) which when mixed with the Goldenrod *usually* solves the over wintering problem. When you super to obtain the Wildflower honey as I do you harvest the honey and in certain years lose colonies to poor wintering on only Goldenrod nectar. I also in certain years lose colonies to varroa trying to obtain Wildflower honey. Off to the boats now to gamble. Safer than betting against poor wintering on Goldenrod honey alone and on not getting untreated colony losses from varroa. " gamble with a percentage of your hives and only a percentage of your money when at the boats or casino's" Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:26:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: More Killer bees in California In-Reply-To: <003501c26b6f$d13ef060$436487d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Following article was in the Desert Dispatch today. They describe the hive as 100,000 bees. 2'x10'x1'. They also say that DNA testing is required to make certain the bees are africanized. The Desert Dispatch is a daily newspaper serving the communities of Barstow, Dagget, Fort Irwin, Hinkley, Lenwood, Newberry Springs and Yermo. http://www.desertdispatch.com/cgi-bin/newspro/viewnews.cgi?newsid1093188974,18879, Sunday, August 22, 2004 Killer bees hospitalize six Swarm attacks at Horton Lake in Newberry Springs By LEROY STANDISH/Staff Writer NEWBERRY SPRINGS -- A swarm of Africanized honey bees living inside a lakeside playhouse attacked 11 people -- six of them children -- on Saturday afternoon, Newberry Springs Fire Department officials said. Six people were taken to hospitals with multiple bee stings. One 4-year-old girl and her uncle were taken by helicopter to Loma Linda University Medical Center where they remained Saturday night after getting stung more than 100 times apiece. Both were recovering and listed in good condition, according to hospital officials. "This little girl had them in her nose, her tongue, she had them in her eyelids," said Dr. John Horton, co-owner of the Horton Lake Water Ski School where the attack occurred. "They estimated they had over 150 stinger bites." The attack started when the 4-year-old girl and several of her friends were playing along the shores of Horton Lake, a man-made lake in Newberry Springs, on Saturday morning. Gretchen Horton, who runs the ski school with her husband, John, watched as two of the girls entered the playhouse in front of her office window. That's when the screaming started. "The children went into the playhouse to play and there was a nest of killer bees in the playhouse," Horton said. "One of the parents heard the children scream, grabbed them and threw them in the lake to get away." Two employees of the ski school, Tony Wahl and Travis Hall, motored their boat from the opposite side of the lake to rescue the two girls. A man identified by John Horton as Butch Coley and two other unidentified adults held the girls under the water as the bees swarmed overhead and stung them repeatedly, said Steve Miller, assistant fire chief of Newberry Springs Fire Department. "They'd go in the water and the bees just hung on. They got in their nose, their ears, their mouths and they just wouldn't let go. The bees were everywhere," Gretchen Horton said Eventually Wahl and Hall dragged the children and three adults out of the lake and took them. Dr. Horton pulled the pulsing stingers out of the screaming children and the little girl's uncle, who began to have trouble breathing, so he was flown with his niece to Loma Linda. The other victims were taken to Barstow Community Hospital where they were treated and released as of 6 p.m. Saturday, according to hospital spokesman John Rader. None of the other victims were identified. Miller has trained with the Newberry Springs Fire Department on how to deal with bee infestations. He said he has handled numerous Africanized bee colonies in the last three years because they have made their presence known in the High Desert. He said he was certain the bees that attacked the people at Horton Lake yesterday morning were Africanized, popularly called "killer" bees. "I'm certain from their behavior," he said. Officials with the San Bernardino County Vector Control Program said it takes two-weeks and DNA testing to make positive identification. Joan Mulcare, of the San Bernardino County Vector Control Program, sent a member of her team to destroy the three hives infesting the play house. Miller described one hive as 2 feet by 10 feet and a foot thick. He estimated that there were more than 100,000 bees in the hive. Before anyone from the county's Vector control arrived, Miller said he and his crew of firefighters broke into one of the hives and doused it with flame retardant foam, killing the bees inside. Miller said the Africanized honey bees have been in the High Desert for at least three years. Miller said residents should periodically check their back yards and homes for small holes. A hole the diameter of a pencil can allow bees in to set up hives in attics or other undisturbed places, he said. "If they see bees congregating, dozens on one building, then they need to call an exterminator," he said. Mulcare said when bees attack, people should run, not jump into water. She said getting into water is the worst thing the victim of a bee attack can do. "You should run in a straight line as fast as you can and they may chase you for a quarter-mile," Mulcare said. "You should never jump in the water, because you have to come up for air, which is unfortunately what they did. If you can get in a place where you can close it up, that is the best." Staff Writer LeRoy Standish can be reached at leroy_standish@link.free dom.com or 951-6277. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:19:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Science is not to be disputed In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: > Hi Bill, On many newsgroups, there is a rule that you bottom post and leave all the posts in as quotes. It is fairly easy to follow the discussion, since each response is directly after the post it is responding to. Even when the thread branches off, you can see where it is going and how it related to the original post. It is difficult to follow threads on the beelist since we are not allowed to quote excessively, a good rule in view of limited storage space on the server. But the rule also leads to misunderstanding, since one is not sure who is responding to who and often the original post is lost in the responses, which go down different paths and often have no relation to the contents of the first post. Especially, if you are like me and delete prior posts to keep my inbox fairly clean. When a new post appears that I want to comment on, I sometimes I go by memory to translate the post and remember what the original post was all about. This is a long way to say that I was responding to several posts. Yours was included as were several others that were disputing scientific studies and alluding to their experience. My frustration level was reached (as obviously was George's) and I painted with a broad brush. Truth is, about three years ago I would have been totally on your side on some of your practices. But since then, I have found several of my strongly held beliefs on growing your own were wrong. Agree that beekeeping is local. I coined that phrase- borrowed from Tip O'Neil (All politics is local). That phrase is nice but not universal. There are basic truths that apply to all of us and to discount them just because our bees survive is to court disaster, but worse, lead others down a path that is wrong. We all have opinions, and the joy and danger of the internet is we all are allowed to give them and they assume equal weight with the truth. I had mine and because I have been on this list a while and also stayed with keeping bees, time led me to revise my views. That perspective has also led me to pick and chose between some who post here. I defer to them when we go down certain paths. In the old days, as a new beekeeper with lots of knowledge but little experience, I had no problem expressing my views. Even asked about menthol cough drops to control Tracheal! Not surprisingly, some said it worked. So I tried it and it did not. Keith, you bring a lot to the table and I apologize for any hurt I may have caused you. It was not done with malice. I doubt if there is anyone who has posted on the beelist for any length of time that intends to hurt, but we do get frustrated and that may be construed as personal. I have been on many beekeeping lists and have dropped all the others to stay here. It is the most "informed" and least trendy. A new idea will be thoroughly discussed (peer review) and you have to be ready to take the heat and substantiate your claims. There is a lot of bad advice out there. It is good to see it challenged. A long post, and thanks for bearing with me. I have lots of cuts on my ego from posts on this list disputing what I have said (or referring to me while the post was someone else's), but have learned it is better to stay and learn than play elsewhere where the rules are more relaxed and they let you "win". Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:56:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. In-Reply-To: <41288957.2060400@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B02223; boundary="=======66C56B95=======" --=======66C56B95======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B02223; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: >>I, with great reluctance, have attempted to "stay aloof" to this subject, but >>just >>can't anymore. > >Amen. Great post, George. >What amazes me in threads like these is, as I said, anecdotal evidence >trumps science. "It works for me" becomes a universal truth. > Gets a bit frustrating. > Amen. Great post, George. Bill Truesdell Whatever. My bees winter well on what I think to be Goldenrod. Do I have any dysentery in my bees...a little. Do I lose any bees from it...a few. So I should take all the honey and feed back syrup...50000 pounds of it?? To save a few colonies?? I hardly think so. And I better dose them with menthol and Fumidil..'cause science says so?? I think not. I guess I'll stick with my proven methods, and take my 40 ton average crop to the bank. Folks living near the Mason-Dixon line shouldn't tell me how to winter bees on the Canada border. It just isn't the same game. Remember, my "anecdotal evidence" comes from 30 + years of experience wintering bees in the north. I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat. Mike --=======66C56B95=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:31:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development In-Reply-To: <000c01c488af$5fd27960$24bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: >>>I did read of one article, in the last year in ABJ, > > > >Being printed in ABJ in itself was clear and compelling > >evidence that what was being said was either not submitted > >to peer review, or was unable to withstand peer review in > >one or more actual science journals. > > Actually many articles in ABJ are subjected by Joe for peer review. All the > Lusby's articles were. Problem is it is difficult to tell what is opinion and what has gone through review. I was the editor and publisher of our State newsletter. It was a bit of a surprise to find one of our articles lifted in total and in ABJ with no attribution or any request from them to publish it. I was meticulous in getting approval from any source to publish their articles or ideas (even posters on the beelist), so it took me back a bit when ABJ did that. I was still new to beekeeping so thought ABJ was the more authoritative of all the general beekeeping journals. They finished that for me and I eventually dropped them and stayed with Gleanings/Bee Culture. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:40:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Science is not to be disputed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, I totally disagree. Science advances by virtue of the inability of some to accept what is laid down as being necessarily true. The scientists of each generation make their names by successfully disputing the science of the previous generation. So I'll offer a modfied version; science is not to be disputed without good reason. I think the point that someone made to the effect that the artificial feeding of ash-free syrup enables bees to survive in marginal environments where they might not otherwise do so is a good one. The corollary of that is that it will enable a strain to survive where it would not otherwise do so, but another strain will. This is why I don't normally feed; I want to maintain selection pressure to eliminate ill-adapted colonies as far as I can; I've experienced them, and I don't want to do so again! Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:43:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So I should take all the honey and feed back syrup...50000 pounds of > it?? To save a few colonies?? I hardly think so... > I guess I'll stick with my proven methods, and take my 40 ton average > crop to the bank. I agree. Practical success trumps theoretical superiority every time. I hate it when we get to talking absolutes, then try to dictate a rule. Idealistic rules and citations of theory get really tiresome for those of us who have experienced the many possibilities that real situations throw at us. In this racket, everything affects everything else. No one factor can be isolated. Principles are only a guide, and one may be overruled by another in a particular situation. What works is better than what should work. Scientists prove lots of things, but in my experience, many scientists are not good beekeepers. Many are good scientists, but crappy beekeepers. They do not keep bees the way we do. Their goals in keeping bees are often very different from ours, and their results, while interesting and instructive may not necessarily reflect on what many of us are doing. Although sugar is very likely a better winter feed than many honies, for many reasons, honey has one huge advantage over sugar: is already in place in the hive, located properly and covering the pollen in a logical manner. In the real world there are costs, disruptions, and risks to removing honey and replacing it with sugar. Damage to the bees can result, particularly if they starve between the robbing and the feeding, or if winter or heavy rain (and muddly roads) comes early and catches the beekeeper in the middle of the job. Honey -- any honey -- in the hive is better than syrup in the warehouse or on truck. Besides, disturbing the bees in the fall may cause the very losses we are trying to prevent. Extracting honey close to the brood exposes the pollen to early consumption, and, moreover, brood honey may be verboten for human consumption if miticides and antibiotics have been used. In my personal experience, a *combination* of honey and sugar worked very well. I did not rob the bees so close that they were ever near starving, and I supplemented the natural feed with gallons of syrup to get the colonies up to weight. I always left them what honey they had in the brood boxes, even if it was poorer quality, but they usually took several gallons of syrup to augment it. In the real world, we cannot predict the fall flow, and, so some years, more sugar is needed than others. In any year, moreover, some colonies will be light, and, although a small-time operator can go around exchanging frames, a big operator will never have the time, and besides that practice is implicated in the spread disease. I think the question was whether bees can overwinter on some inferior honies, and I think we can see that, although some are successful, others have had problems, especially if that is all the bees have. We also see that the success may be dependant on the locale and the operator's other practices, some of which may not be easily changed. What is a person to conclude? What I get out of the whole thing is that it is a good idea to take off what is easy to take off, then to feed the colonies up with sugar as much as practical so that much of the early winter, at least, is spent on sugar stores, but not to go to extremes to avoid the fall honey. Works for me, but YYMV. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:27:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Science is not to be disputed In-Reply-To: <4129D2B2.2070004@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > We all have opinions, and the joy and danger of the > internet is we all > are allowed to give them and they assume equal > weight with the truth. [...] A new idea will > be thoroughly discussed (peer review) and you have > to be ready to take > the heat and substantiate your claims. There is a > lot of bad advice out > there. It is good to see it challenged. > > A long post, and thanks for bearing with me. I have > lots of cuts on my > ego from posts on this list disputing what I have > said (or referring to > me while the post was someone else's), but have > learned it is better to > stay and learn [...] A very wise post I appreciated a lot. Just one more tought: most of the time, the way arguments are expressed have more adverse effects on our ego and sensitivity than arguments themselves. Respect and humility help the dialogue... Hervé Lava, Qc, Canada Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:45:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rosalind James Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator In field crop IPM, we have two different terms: treatment threshold and economic injury level. The economic injury level is the level of pest infestation where the monetary loss due to damage equals the monetary cost of treatment. There is no point in spending a bunch of money on controlling a pest if the cost of control is greater than the damage due to the pest. However, sometimes you have to control a pest before it reaches the economic injury level, because if you wait, it will be too late (for one reason or another). For example, sometimes one life stage of the pest is easier to control than another. Varroa is a good example. It is easier to control varroa in the fall or early spring because (1) not much brood is present, and so most of the mites will be out where we can get to them with chemicals, fumigants, or microbials (it's very hard to kill mites that are in capped brood cells) and (2) you are not in the middle of honey production, when you have to be careful about what kind of things you put in the hive. Thus, the concept of a treatment threshold is important for varroa control. Also, in crop IPM, it is generally accepted that a pest which vectors a disease has a very low economic threshold. That is, a few pests can cause a lot of damage. I have to agree with what a few have expressed. A true economic threshold has not been established for varroa. Keith Delaplane and Michael Hood did a very nice study on the levels of varroa that will cause colony decline. However, they didn't actually do an economic analysis to show the cost of damage (nor did they show what impact varroa had on honey production). Their numbers are probably a good indicator of what your treatment thesholds should be, though. I think we are still learing about the viruses. Brenda Ball said at a recent insect pathology meeting, "I think the viruses have always been there, they just were never a problem until varroa showed up and began acting as a vector." In otherwords, the viruses didn't spread much until they had a vector. So far, the easiest way to slow the spread of the viruses in a hive is to control varroa. I am glad to see beekeepers discussing IPM. If nothing else, more careful use of pesticides in the hive can go a long way to reducing the incidence of pesticide-resistance in varroa. In the long run, it usually is worth the extra effort. Rosalind James :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:49:19 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Defending Exterminating of Bees > Does anyone have info on US gardens or other private/public > places that have colonies on exhibit? Who manages them? My Dad (confusingly also named "James Fischer") manages an observation hive at Smith Mountain Lake State Park in Virginia. Every spring, we pick the weakest colony between our collections that has a queen that is not completely worn out, and install it in his custom-build, constantly redesigned 15-frame observation hive, and install it at the visitor center. The kids love it, and the sales of Dad's honey help fund the park operations, as Virginia has been only inches away from being sold off at a bankruptcy auction for years. His land adjoins the state park, so all the honey can be honestly said to have been made from state park flowers and weeds, as Dad's land is 100% hayfields and pine forest. In general, there is nothing like an observation hive to insure brisk honey sales, but one needs a largish one if one wants to have a "zero maintenance colony". Optimal for a 15-frame set-up appears to be 5 frames of "brood chamber", with a queen excluder forcing the other 10 frames to be "honey supers". Our maintenance is limited to an optional mid-summer removal of capped frames of honey and replacement with empty comb to "keep 'em busy". Not quite "zero", but pretty darned close. After Labor Day, we either over-winter the colony in traditional wooden boxes in Dad's bee yard, or we combine it with another weakish colony for winter. The display is fairly simple - the hive is bolted down to a table to be 100% poke-proof, and the wall behind is covered with a selection from the Dadant "study print" series, with captions added to explain each print. The key point here is that the entrance is well above head height - the bees climb a clear plastic tube to to the entrance, which is near the ceiling. Magnifying glasses are lying around to allow up-close and personal examination of the bees. The display is "self-service", but Dad will go down and talk to groups who make arrangements in advance. One thing I will say is that 100% of the observation hives one can buy are too darned small for a long-term, low-maintenance colony. Other than that, one must be willing to tinker the first year or two to get things dialed in for a "set-it-up and forget it" scheme. Think modular. Think "must be carried outside to work on it". And remember that for an indoor hive, there is simply no such thing as "too much ventillation". jim (Some things have to be believed to be seen) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:34:30 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development > Actually many articles in ABJ are subjected by Joe for peer review. Yes, but the definition of "peer review" is one where the "peers" are people currently working and publishing scientific papers in science journals of record in the specific area of research addressed by the paper submitted. ABJ simply does not have a large enough pool of people who meet this criteria to be able to claim that they are "peer reviewed" in anywhere near the same way as the legitimate science journals one finds in citations to real papers. The difference is that between a single pistachio and an entire truckload of macadamias - not nearly enough nuts, and nowhere nearly expensive enough. :) That said, one can find the occasional citation to an ABJ article in real science papers, further confusing the question of ABJ's status, but ABJ is not indexed in the massive citation indexes, and if your articles ain't indexed, you ain't publishing "science". But even the indexes are not perfect. Kim Flottum informed me this summer that "Apicultural Abstracts", the journal put out by the International Bee Research Association (supposed to list "every important research paper on bees and beekeeping in the entire world") abstracted an article I wrote for Bee Culture on "Sweeteners": http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/SugarReprint.pdf To compound the error, he said that they also plan on abstracting the article I wrote for him about the impact of Global Warming on beekeeping. Neither article had any pretensions about being scientific papers, as both were mere magazine articles written for an readership of beekeepers. Go figure. jim (My Wife: "...C'est la vie..." Me: " Ok... 'La Vie!' ") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:32:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy.l.flaming@EXGATE.TEK.COM Subject: Re: corn syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" A supplier I recently found is LSI Specialty Products. They have several sites around the country and the local office (Portland, Oregon) was very helpful and easy to work with. The only odd thing about them is that to order you need to call their national office (which is listed as ADM, not LSI) and order there. You then can pick up small quantities at the local branch - they require payment on delivery, checks only, no cash. I am not sure what their minimum order is, but they were very willing to sell me 1000 pounds and a single drum sounded very possible, not sure about single pails. The price was $21.75 per hundred pounds for type 55. If you are interested call Cindy McDonald at 877-447-7732 and see if they have a local branch in your area and what their minimum purchase is. Randy Flaming Monmouth, Oregon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:34:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Science is not to be disputed In-Reply-To: <4129D2B2.2070004@suscom-maine.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bill, > It is difficult to follow threads on the beelist since we are not > allowed to quote excessively, a good rule in view of limited storage > space on the server. As demonstrated here, it is quite possible to quote enough to catch the sense of a post without getting carried away. You do not have to quote entire posts or even full paragraphs. Usually a sentence, or even a phrase will give the reader enough information to know to what you are responding. If replying to several posts, simply address your response paragraph to a person or quoted phrase. No misunderstanding need follow this practice. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:31:38 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Ascorbic Acid in Syrup-OK for bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am in the midst of doing a ton of canning. I have syrup left over = which is made of 2:1 Sugar to water. It contains Ascorbic Acid as a = freshening agent/anti-browning. I also have some syrup with peach juice in as = well. Since it is organic sugar we are talking here, and not cheap, is it = possible to use this with the bees? Thanks...JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen =D5hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:02:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: NSF funds $5 M for a honey bee database MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Funding has been obtained from the NSF Frontiers in Biology (FIBR) program to create BeeSpace here at Illinois. This 5 year, $5M project will create a knowledge acquisition environment online to complement BeeBase and extend the value of the bee genome sequence. The PI is Bruce Schatz, School of Library and Information Science, who helped build WormBase. Other co-PIs have expertise in statistical genomics, computer science, outreach, and biology (Susan Fahrbach and Gene Robinson). They will perform a functional analysis of all the roles of a honey bees within their society by combining microarray analysis, large-scale brain in situ hybridization, and a novel approach to informatics that links all sources from current genome databases to the existing scientific and natural history literatures on honey bees. Info obtained from web: http://beespace.uiuc.edu This project will analyze social behavior on an unprecedented whole-genome scale, using Apis mellifera, the Western honey bee, as the model organism. Honey bees live in a complex society governed by an age-related division of labor, with each individual assuming many roles during her lifetime. Both genetic heredity and environmental conditions determine what role a bee performs, and when she performs it. The biology research will generate a unique database of gene expressions for all social behavior, recording brain gene expression for hundreds of individuals, each with a specific societal role. These microarray experiments utilize the recently sequenced genome, supported by state-of-the-art statistics. The informatics research will develop an interactive environment to analyze all information sources relevant to bee social behavior. These include genome databases from honey bee and related organisms, linked to complete scientific literature relevant to insect behavior. New text mining technology will integrate molecular description with information from physiology, behavior, neuroscience, and evolution. The BeeSpace environment will enable users to navigate a uniform space of diverse databases and literature sources for hypothesis development and testing. The software system will go beyond a searchable database, using statistical literature analyses to discover functional relationships between genes and behavior. This research will enable all scientists who study bee genes to live on the frontier of integrative biology, where biotechnology enables routine expression analysis and bioinformatics enables functional analysis unconstrained by pre-existing categories. The broader impact of the interactive environment for functional analysis will be tested in an international community of laboratories studying honey bees and related organisms. Outreach for BeeSpace will provide integrated research and education experiences at the graduate and undergraduate levels, plus training courses and minority outreach at high school and middle school levels. The BeeSpace project is funded by a $5M, 5-year grant from NSF FIBR, Frontiers in Integrative Biological Research program at the National Science Foundation, September 2004—August 2008. Zachary Huang http://www.msu.edu/~bees :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:18:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development Jim was right, review/decision by editor does not consitute peer review, which is usually anonymous and by 2 or more other scientists. ABJ does have one "Apicultural Research" section that IS peer reviewed. The impact index (published by ISI {http://www.thomsonisi.com} to measure how often a journal is cited by scientists) is rather low, of course, for this journal. But the fact that it gets even listed by SCI is a pleasent surprise. Zachary Huang On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:34:30 -0400, James Fischer wrote: >> Actually many articles in ABJ are subjected by Joe for peer review. >submitted. ABJ simply does not have a large enough pool of people who meet >this criteria to be able to claim that they are "peer reviewed" in anywhere :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:41:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Science is not to be disputed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & All, > Keith, you bring a lot to the table and I apologize for any hurt I may > have caused you. > You could never hurt my feelings, only I can do this to myself. I just did not want to upset things. > I have been on many beekeeping lists and have dropped all the others to > stay here. It is the most "informed" and least trendy. > I do not agree, this list is also trendy and has a style too. Informed is relevant, no matter what the source is of the information it can have relevance. Everything does not always follow the books in how it plays out individually. > A new idea will > be thoroughly discussed (peer review) and you have to be ready to take > the heat and substantiate your claims. > What you refer to as claims can be my best observations in my area of apiasrianism. My observations will never pass the peer review arena because I have no credentials or hard data for back up. Be that as it may my observations are mostly made for my advantage in my location because I am a firm believer in beekeeping being local. I am not sure that you Bill coined that phrase because it was the first thing that was taught me by my mentor of old. Beekeeping is local may be the best claim of all beekeeping and that is why I subscribe to beekeepers keeping bees locally with local stock if not their very own stock. This can be disputed but I may as well give up beekeeping right now if beekeeping is not local. > There is a lot of bad advice out > there. It is good to see it challenged. > I have no problem being challenged as long as it is with respect without ridicule. Everyone should be considered as equals when in a discussion, not lop sided and bias. > but have learned it is better to > stay and learn than play elsewhere where the rules are more relaxed and > they let you "win". > The main thing I am concerned about is that the bees win in the long run, they get pushed around enough. I am not playing a popularity game, I am beekeeping and becoming the best Apiarian that I can possibly be given the intelligence the good Lord gave me. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:17:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Rosalind James" wrote: > So far, the easiest way to slow the spread of the > viruses in a hive is to control varroa. I am wondering if there has been any research into the susceptibility of colonies to viruses, particularly those causing problems when vectored by varroa. When varroa first arrived, we saw very heavy losses with most colonies clearly suffering from DWV. Now, it is rare to see DWV and varroa is much less of a problem. Has varroa eliminated the most susceptible colonies, leaving us with more resistant stock? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:38:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: More on "Bad Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith, Robin and All, "No, the kids were bad and the bees were made example of instead of the kids." (Keith) While I agree with my heart, I know in my head destroying the colony was the only solution. "If there were an unbiased official who could have justifiable authority to determine the correct course of action the bees may have had rights to be themselves and live in a location other than where they were killed." (Keith) I think the only place you can find a "Fair Witness" is in science fiction. They surely do not live in the US. Many individuals are profiting from this situation and will fight to keep it from changing. (Do a search on tort reform and read some unbelievable accounts.) "There was a problem. A solution was needed. There were two sides - health of public v. health of bees. So, a case for negotiation."(Robin) If there was a time for negotiation it was well before the incident occurred, and any negotiation would and could only cover feral colonies that are discovered BEFORE they cause a problem. Once the stinging starts, attacking feral bees will have about the same rights as a rabid dog. Any time there is the slightest threat, the public will always prevail. Just ask Dave Green to tell you how difficult it is to stop totally sanctioned "misuse" of pesticides when there is a potential threat to public health. "WE will agree to removal of these bees provided the CITY agrees that not all bees are bad and some living space should be available to bees." (Robin) Quite frankly, the city does not have to agree to anything. Bees in the city are not providing any great benefit to mankind. The arguments about pollination and the world's food supply don't apply. If bees are kept in the city it is usually for the benefit of the beekeeper. Furthermore, feral colonies are considered a nuisance at best. Don't get me wrong, I can think of many benefits, but my view is that of a beekeeper. "The children could have got badly hurt thru their ignorance..." Robin, now here is where we totally agree. I think education is key to success. An uninformed, or worse a misinformed, public is the most dangerous group on earth. They will (and have) make completely irresponsible decisions during and after a crisis. It is that very same group that acts as a stimulus for the creation of ridiculous regulations. I know of one municipality that regulates the purity of wastewater discharge from industrial sites. Their standard is so strict that if a facility wanted to discharge the drinking water (supplied by the municipality) it would first have to be treated. They don't like having industry in their area so they have a number of local regulations that really discourage anybody from coming in to set up shop. If this mentality, that flies in the face of common sense, exists it is a wonder that beekeeping is permitted anywhere. "Ron Bogansky clearly has all the skills/experience to draft a 'negotiation manual for beekeepers for use when bees are under attack in urban locations'. What about it , Ron? " Robin, I take that as a compliment, so thank you very much, but I won't put my dog in that fight. I will say this. Usually when bees, or anything else, come under attack the cause is one of two reasons. A negative incident, which at best all you can do is damage control, because the Genie is out of the bottle, or an uninformed individual that just assumes having the bees in the area is cause for concern. There is a possibility of working with this one but it just may be easier to move to the country. Seriously, the best thing we can do, as already mentioned by others, is put forth a positive image and work really hard to educate the public. Right now I am wondering what has been benefit of my starting this discussion . I guess I should go back to extracting and not think so much. That's the problem with extracting honey, it gives you too much time to think which leads to posts on BeeL or honey spilling on the honey house floor. Ron Bogansky Keeping bees somewhere in the US, where you can be sued by an individual who is injured on your property while trying to steal your television. + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:54:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Rosalind James" wrote: > So far, the easiest way to slow the spread of the > viruses in a hive is to control varroa. Why chase rainbows when the above has shown to be the best method. Peter asks: I am wondering if there has been any research into the susceptibility of colonies to viruses, particularly those causing problems when vectored by varroa. The USDA-ARS bee labs looked at ( I should say document)viruses back when varroa first arrived in the U.S.. I sat through many presentations at bee meetings and talked directly with many USDA people. Because viruses most likely will never be able to be cured in bees & viruses usually only do the most damage when varroa loads are at high levels the only logical method is to control the varroa (as Rosalind said above). The researchers which follow the research laid out by Bailey many years ago on honey bee viruses have documented many bee viruses but have provided little so far in controlling bee virus. The key to the bees surviving varroa in my opinion is in cutting the number of varroa in the hive. Period! Most researchers in the world stand with me. I believe virus research should continue but I am against spending a huge amount of our precious research money in the area. Peter asks: Has varroa eliminated the most susceptible colonies, leaving us with more resistant stock? Sure! The Russian bee which has seen varroa pressure for many many years is proof of the bee adapting to varroa (and only took around a hundred years). The problem is the number of years and amount of dead hives it took the Russian bee to adapt and many of the Russian lines imported demonstrated poor varroa tolerance here in the U.S.. The U.S. with its huge pollination needs could not afford to simply let hives die as the Russians did. The U.S. beekeeping industry was put on Chemotherapy. Interestingly many beekeepers which said they would never put a chemical strip in a bee hive in 1987 (later did after most of their hives died) are the beekeepers which are the hardest to convince the time has come to get off the chemical treadmill (or at least find softer chemicals to use). Perhaps a hobby beekeeper in a small city will come up with a cure for varroa or a bee which will tolerate varroa but I would bet my money on the very small group of researchers & beekeepers doing serious varroa research. I will say that varroa like all pests seem to go through periods of being more problematic in certain years than others. So far we do not understand why. One of the problems in studying varroa is the short life span without a host. Diana Sammataro told me this year a method of prolonging the life span of varroa in the lab so far looks promising. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:24:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Peter Edwards" " I am wondering if there has been any research into the susceptibility of colonies to viruses, particularly those causing problems when vectored by varroa". Prof Mark Winston, Simon Fraser University, has lectured in Uk showing he has reserched variation in the level of varroa that kills colonies depending on level of virus. Google gives 378 hits for Mark Winston Varroa - somewhere in there......? Can anyone point closer? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:50:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Apol Subject: roundup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Roundup(tm). A wonderful herbicide that is as safe as Ivory Snow..... not to even worry that getting bees drenched will hurt them...it will not!" (http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0206B&L=bee-l&P=R898) In performing a search of the bee-l archive (4 years back), I could only find the above mentioned post relating to the use of Roundup at and around hives for weed control. Currently I have 8 hives immediately next to a small 2 acre plot of weeds that are due to be sprayed with Roundup. Does anyone have any other experiance they would care to share on using this chemical close to their apiary? Roundup is in general use on soybean fields within foraging range within our general area. Is there an optimum time to spray? Eg, spraying at dusk while the bee's are in the hive? Has anyone had proven bad experiances with Roundup? The comment in the above referenced post says not to worry about getting bees drenched with roundup. That is quite a statement if it is true. Any input would be greatly appreciated. ------------ Jason Apol ><> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:43:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator >Now, it is rare to see DWV and varroa is much less of a problem. I wish that was true in my case. Last summer I had more bees with shriveled wings in my hives than I've ever had in the past. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:13:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: 2004 FALL PROGRAM NOTES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The West Virginia Beekeepers Association, incorporated on September 15, 1917= ,=20 enjoyed a rebirth in 1969, and celebrates its 35th year of rebirth. Many=20 things in Beekeeping have changed, but still there are those who aspire to b= ecome=20 masters at the craft that fascinates them. Especially now the need increases= =20 for the finest and most skilled beekeepers - the goal for which our=20 association was founded. WVBA Fall Meeting By paying registration, room, and board through the=20 Association, we are able to pass on to you a savings of five or more dollars= . =20 You are urged to return your registration for ASAP because space is limited.= =20 Deadline to register is _______________ =20 If you are coming alone and wish to share a room, please indicate this on=20 registration form because adequate time must be allowed because no arrangeme= nts=20 can be made at the Conference. Deadline for shared rooms is _____________=20= =20 =20 Door Prizes Participants are invited to donate door prizes in addition to=20 those given by Bee Supply Companies. These prizes need not be strictly bee=20 supplies, e.g., new pint or quart canning jars with lids or items that you f= ind=20 useful in your bee and honey chores would make good prizes. Evaluations Please let us know what you think of this year=E2=80=99s progr= am. =20 Your comments aid us in constantly improving our programs. Suggestions fr= om=20 past years for more time for the main speaker, additional time to get to and= =20 from the cafeteria, and time for a group picture are reflected in our 2004=20 program. Please be sure to turn in your evaluation at the last session (Awa= rds &=20 Auction) or at the time you leave, if you have to leave early. Program Folders contain: 1) Fall Meeting Program, 2) Program Notes, 3)=20 Program evaluation form, 4) State Honey Cookbook (WVDA) 5) A Parasite Bookle= t from=20 MAAREC and 6) A Bee Supply Co. Catalog. =20 SPEAKERS Dr. Richard D. Fell is a Professor, Department of Entomology at VPI and SU.=20= =20 He received both his masters degree in 1977 and doctorate in 1979 at Cornel= l=20 University. =20 His research includes 1) development of an environmental surveillance progra= m=20 utilizing honey bees and other insects, 2) reproductive physiology of queen=20 honey bees and the impact of miticides on queens and drones, 3) studies on t= he=20 foraging behavior and food preference of carpenter and odorous house ants, a= nd=20 4) possible approaches to carpenter bee control. His extension program is primarily devoted to assisting the beekeeping=20 industry in Virginia. He also provides help with pollination recommendation= s for=20 fruit and vegetable growers, help to the pest control industry in=20 recommendations and training for house infesting ants and stinging insects,=20= and assistance=20 in forensic entomology to the Chief Medical Examiners Office in Roanoke. While research and extension work are a major part of Dr. Fell=E2=80=99s occ= upation,=20 consistent awards for excellence in teaching from 1985 through 2002 speak we= ll=20 of his love of his subject and caring for his students. =20 Charles (Chuck) Cienawski, an extremely talented mead maker will be doing a=20 demonstration/talk on Mead Making. Chuck is chairman of the WV Queen=20 Committee, Treasurer of Marion Co. Beekeepers, and WVBA=E2=80=99s 2004 Beeke= eper of the Year.=20 Milford Bragg has the distinction of having been Beekeeper of the Year in=20 two states, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Having contagious enthusiasm, he=20 frequently puts on programs for local and state associations.=20 George Clutter, WV State Apiarist since 2001, will update conditions and=20 happenings around the state, giving us a glimpse at the bigger picture. As o= f July=20 1 this year, the State Apiary Program is under the WVDA=E2=80=99s Marketing= and=20 Development Division. George can be reached in Charleston at 304-558-2210=20= or at=20 home at 304-847-2151. James, Debbie Copenhaver and Bill Troup James, Debbie, and Bill are all=20 EAS Master Beekeepers. Bill also went through the WV Master Beekeeper Progra= m,=20 reaching the Master level last fall. For several years James and Debbie have= =20 meticulously judged the Honey, Wax and Baking Show --always late into the=20 night. They are also a familiar sight, teaching a gathering around the open=20= hive at=20 our state meetings. Bill with his expertise is a welcome addition to the=20 crew. =20 Helen and David Freese Both are gifted crafts persons, particularly in=20 needlepoint and sewing. Both will be guiding participants with our T- or=20 Sweat-Shirt project. It had been suggested that a craft workshop be given du= ring=20 another program to offer a choice. Project details are given below in the=20 Activities section. Robert Clarke Bob is retired from practicing law in Charleston, and he has= =20 been invaluable to WVBA in his experience with the state legislature. Bob= =E2=80=99s=20 legal background makes him an ideal commentator on a Texas Appellate Court=20 decision that upheld a judgment against two beekeepers. WV Beekeepers will=20= listen=20 closely to this case and do some planning. =20 Nancy Troup, An EAS Master Beekeeper, has a practical interest in her topic.= =20 Nancy is experienced in raising Alternate Pollinators, specifically the=20 Japanese Horned-face Bee. Nancy will share some interesting information in=20= her=20 presentation. =20 ACTIVITIES Field Demonstration - Bring your bee veil -- a chance to see Different=20 Methods of Queen Introduction with Debbie and James Copenhaver. Bill Trou= p will=20 explain the Pros and Cons of removing attendant bees from the queen cage. OR T- or Sweat-Shirt Project- (please read carefully) Those interested should= =20 bring their own heavy weight T-shirt or a low nap sweat shirt. The shirt=20 should be pre-washed and ironed. That way each person gets the background c= olor=20 of his choice and the correct size for fit. Templates, brushes and paint wi= ll=20 be furnished. The Freeses=E2=80=99 will also bring an ironing board and iro= n as that=20 is needed to =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D the colors. Cost for supplies is $2. per person at the time of project. In order to tak= e=20 this class, you must INDICATE INTEREST ON YOUR REGISTRATION FORM because= =20 an accurate count for supplies is needed 2 weeks before the meeting. The=20 pastel stenciled art work has a yellow skep in the center with 4 bees circli= ng and=20 flowers on both sides of the skep at ground level.=20 Idea Factory is a look at recommended equipment, gadgets and processes tha= t=20 you might want to use or duplicate. Bring a gadget, piece of equipment or=20 idea with you to share. For example, Gabe Blatt from Huntington will bring a= =20 valued piece of equipment, his 2 wheel steel hand truck and lift for moving=20= bees. Honey, Wax and Baking Show In an attempt to make the honey show entry=20 registration run more rapidly and smoothly, we have a time set aside before=20= the=20 Meeting begins so you can register your entries on Friday morning. There=20 will also be a =C2=BD hour =E2=80=9CLast Call=E2=80=9D for entries at 6 PM.=20 WV Master Beekeeper Test James and Debbie Copenhaver, both EAS Master=20 Beekeepers, started the WV Master Beekeeper program in 1991. The program ha= s three=20 levels: apprentice, certified, and master, each having more demanding=20 requirements than the previous level. WV members who have attained the Mast= er level=20 include: Paul Poling, Tim Tennant, Tom Kershner, and Bill Troup. Tests=20 include a written, laboratory and field section. If you would like to know=20= more or=20 to take the test, contact James or Debbie Copenhaver at 76 Fiesta Drive,=20 Bunker Hill, WV 25413 or (304) 229-8730 by the deadline of Monday, September= 13th. WV Beekeeper of the Year (2005) This honor will be voted at the Fall Genera= l=20 meeting on Friday evening, September 24th. Nominations must be presented in= =20 writing before the meeting. Each local association is encouraged to present= a=20 candidate. =20 Requirements state that the candidate must: 1) Own and/or currently manage or maintain honeybee colonies. 2) Have an adequate working knowledge of honeybee diseases and their=20 diagnoses and control. 3) Have an adequate working knowledge of honeybee management with respect t= o=20 swarm control, honey production, division, queen rearing, etc. 4) Be a member and play an active role in State and local beekeeping=20 association functions. 5) Be active in local beekeeping education and honey promotion. 6) The nominee=E2=80=99s spouse is encouraged to be included. ***************************************** Janet, =20 Note there are 2 blanks to be filled in on =E2=80=9C WVBA Fall Meeting=E2= =80=9D section =20 (registration)=20 I would like to include: a free ad now and tomorrow send the following 2=20 items: A short article on recent activities of Marion Co=20 Beekeepers =20 A short article on a visit to the Co-op in June late= =20 on a Sat. afternoon =20 =20 Free Ad: Beekeeping Books for sale, over 25 titles: also Honey Bee Healthy, 8 oz.=20 bottles. See Tom/Aretha Kees at Fall Meeting. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin said: Prof Mark Winston, Simon Fraser University, has lectured in Uk showing he has reserched variation in the level of varroa that kills colonies depending on level of virus. Old news Robin. Winston is simply repeating what was learned early on at the start of the varroa problem. Come up with a solution other than a reduction in varroa load in the hive and beekeepers might pay attention. I do not mean to be blunt but the beekeeping industry world wide needs anwers to the varroa problem and fast. On a positive note a bee which will tolerate varroa has been found but is the result of a closed breeding plan from many lines. The bee is not a product of the USDA-ARS but queens from various U.S. sources have been used. Private beekeepers have got the bee. The problem now is as Allen Dick said many years ago would be is that the production queens will have to be bought every year as was the case with the Starline & Midnight line from Dadant as the lines used to produce the line will need to be maintained in their pure state. Raisng queens from the daughters will not produce the same bee as the mother queen (which I will not know go into but most should know the reasons on the list) which those of us which have used the Starlines & Midnights will attest to. The line I speak of is not (at this time) available to the general public. I had hoped the above would not be the case but but so far looks as if will be until a good selection program can be done with the best of the Russians ( might take a few years). With all due respect for Tom Rinderer ( head of Russian project)I voice an opinion: The Russian program might have been handle differently in my opinion. The reason being hives carry varroa loads for many reasons as shown clearly by the Dr. Harbo & Dr. Harris research. If I had been involved in the Russian program from the start I would have taken every queen which Tom Rinderer pinched their heads off and removed to an area for further evaluation. Done properly I believe the Russian queen evaluation program should have taken around 20 years as suggested to me before the program started by Dr. Shiminki (project founder). I realize Tom Rinderer and his people (USDA-ARS Baton Rouge , LA>) were under tremendious pressure to come up with a Russian bee which would tolerate varroa as fast as possible. The bee given to us by the bee lab in my opinion is a crude version of the bee we wanted but I commend the USDA-ARS for at least giving us the material to perfect! The cost to import & run the Russian project was expensive. I wish a queen from each line imported was still around for further evaluation. Tom Rinderer had to make a choice as to ruthless culling or years of looking and he decided on ruthless culling to speed up the process. I have been asking around and I do not believe a breeder queen from each Russian line selected for release ( sent each year to Glenn Apiaries) over the last six years is still around today. Are queens from each line sent to Glenn Apiaires for Russian breeder queens still around Charlie? I myself hope to work a few of the *bugs* out of the Russians but I am told by queen breeders my project will most likely fail due to a lack of alleles. To add different alleles I may have to come up with a hybrid Russian instead of the Russian/Russian I am working with. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:23:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: roundup In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Roundup will kill bees. The surfactant that is in roundup will kill the bees. It is like soapy water, and all of us know not to spray with soapy water unless we are trying to kill them. Lionel -- 3Mbps Cable Modem provider ( http://pclnet.net/ http://pclnet.net ) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:39:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: roundup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear said: "Roundup(tm). A wonderful herbicide that is as safe as Ivory Snow..... not to even worry that getting bees drenched will hurt them...it will not!" I would not be drenching my bees in any herbicide as said by Lloyd above. I have had herbicide loss in bees on occassion. I do use roundup as weed control in yards but find in certain years I need to keep using again to control weeds. A better herbicide (granular) is sold by a bee supply house ( Mann Lake) but at a higher cost (and not sold by Wal Mart). Jason asks: >Is there an optimum time to spray? Eg, spraying at dusk while the bee's are in the hive? ALWAYS TELL FARMERS TO SPRAY PESTICIDES & HERBICIDES AT DUSK WHEN BEES ARE NOT FLYING. Jason asks: >Has anyone had proven bad experiances with Roundup? I have not heard of any but maybe others on the list have heard? Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:14:26 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: roundup In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Don't know if that post is even true, but I do know that most formulations of sprays have surfactants in them that will kill most insects on contact, just as soap does. For many chemicals, the active ingredients are relatively safe but the "inert" ingredients are not. Don't have any sources handy, but this was based on a review of virtually all available literature on in-situ effects of agricultural practices on aquatic and riparian creatures for the Ca Water Quality Control Board in the early 80's. This was in ancient times when literature searches involved going to many libraries and the hot new tool was huge volumes of keyword-compiled abstracts (g). Carolyn in SC Ahh, if we'd had the internet in those days......on the other hand some of the best stuff (bibliographies, anyway) was in gray literature found by searching the shelves. Jason Apol wrote: >"Roundup(tm). A wonderful herbicide that is as safe as Ivory Snow..... not >to even worry that getting bees drenched will hurt them...it will not!" >(http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0206B&L=bee-l&P=R898) > >In performing a search of the bee-l archive (4 years back), I could only >find the above mentioned post relating to the use of Roundup at and around >hives for weed control... >Any input would be greatly appreciated. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:09:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: More Killer bees in California Hi Guys, It's time for my yearly AHB rant. There's been much discussion about the rights of bees. Beekeepers tend to defend the better characteristics of their bees much like some parents do with their children. Yet, that can be just a part of the story. I've actually spoken to a few beekeepers who deny the existence of the AHB, a very irresponsible position based on ignorance I hope! Yet, our appearence when working the honeybee betrays that sentiment. When we are suited up in veils, suits, sometimes glovs, and surrounded by our protective smoke the public gets another impression entirely :>) Sure, sometimes we work our bee without any smoke or protection. But it's a foolish beekeeper who doesn't have some kind of protection nearby. And for good reason. Bees are not domesticated pets. They can surprise us and react badly to our meddling at times. Only our armor and our knowledge prevents us from becoming a victim. I have worked with an africanized hive. Most of the time a beekeeper can work them the same as other bees. And they are easily controlled with a little smoke. But they are extremely defensive of their hive. The slightest hive disturbance without smoke sends them into a frenzy which has to been seen to be believed. And they stay worked up for the rest of the day. I had forgotten my smoker but decided to inspect a yard with a half dozen regular hives and one africanized hive. I worked the 'normal' bees without any problem. When I removed the cover on the AHB hive, I was covered with bees. In less than 10 seconds my socks were completely cover so that no cloth was visible. Any movement attracted hundreds and my breath enraged hundreds more. In less than a minute thousands of stinging bees were after me. I gently set the lid back on the hive and retreated to my truck. The bees continued to attack the truck. They would attempt to sting anything black like the door and window moldings. The slightest sting odor from my clothing would attract hundreds more to the small amount of ventilation that was escaping from the cab. And they would attack any birds flying overhead, killing the smaller ones who couldn't get away fast enough. I have worked bees commercially since 1968. I've worked thousands of hives in all kinds of weather and under the most unfavorable conditions. I have seen very angry hives and very angry yards. I've been stung too many times to count in a single instance. Yet, I've never experienced anything like this. A healthy non-beekeeper in such a situation is risking their life unless they can run fast and far. A child, or an elderly person who couldn't run away under such stinging could easily be killed, if not from being doused with gas or drowning in the lake, surely from the stinging itself. That yard was near a road and a farm house was a half mile away. I decided to stay in the truck and at the yard for the rest of the afternoon. The risk was just too great that someone would come along and get attacked. What if a child riding a bike had come by that yard? The bees frenzy abated somewhat after about 2 hours. But they were still going after the birds 4 hours later. Any movement within 1/4 mile brought an instant response with dozens of stinging bees 6 hours later. Thankfully the sun set! Bet you can't guess what happened to that hive. I would like to suggest that beekeepers take the high ground. Let's be seen as defenders of the public good. When the public is threatened by errant bees, it will be the beekeepers to the rescue. After all, we are the guys in the white suits:>) And we should know what to do, whether to save or destroy depending on the situation. The public should look to us, with our knowledge and experience of bees, to assess the risk. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:44:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: My most recent mistake.... was to stack extracted supers over two supers of very good honey AND put moth-killer (PDB?) on top. This was two weeks ago - have I ruined my honey for use by bees or humans? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:07:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: roundup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Has anyone had proven bad experiances with Roundup? > > I have not heard of any but maybe others on the list have heard? I've heard anecdotes that bee colonies have gotten very angry and stung passersby after Roundup was used on nearby fields. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:53:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: 2004 FALL PROGRAM NOTES Comments: To: kim@beeculture.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry about that Kim, with so much we tend to forget the basics. Cedar Lakes, Ripley, West Virginia Starts in the morning Sept 24 and ends in afternoon of the 25th :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:17:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: More on "Bad Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bogansky." Usually when bees, or > anything else, come under attack the cause is one of two reasons. A > negative incident, which at best all you can do is damage control, > because the Genie is out of the bottle, or an uninformed individual that > just assumes having the bees in the area is cause for concern. There is > a possibility of working with this one but it just may be easier to move > to the country. Seriously, the best thing we can do, as already > mentioned by others, is put forth a positive image and work really hard > to educate the public. > Right now I am wondering what has been benefit of my starting this > discussion " Well, it's August - hot , wet and the silly season for news. We had some fun with this one - so worth it on its own. Obviously, when suggesting negotiation in the midst of 'pandemonium' , my tongue was in my cheek. But the theme was surely useful in discussing that the public should be induced to take a balanced view of bees - colonies cannot be left where they endanger humans but unless space is provided for bees in suitable places then the public will miss out on understanding their true nature, and dangerous incidents can happen. The kids who threw stones could easily be dead now if the colony was truly AHB that behaved as just described by Dennis. More positively, selling honey depends (in UK at least) on a positive association of bees with the 'good life', the mythical golden days of old, purity, food of the classical Greek gods. I would not sell many jars of 'killer juice' in the market. I was seeking to make the point that any publicity gives the opportunity to propose change - the suggestion could have been made, after the bees had gone, that there should be a place where bees are kept in the city , and parents and schools can visit for interest. As has been said, there are many places in Europe where bees are on public display, most often on sites provided by city authorities. In my small town the 'city farm' has an obs hive and beekeepers hives alonside the cows, pigs and chickens. And of course there are many reportsof bees being kept peacably in US towns. Mayor Richard Daley put three hives on the roof of Chicago City Hall; David Graves advertises for private New York roofs and sells 'New York City Roof-top honey' for 8 dollars a half pound. There are said to be 300 hives within Paris - and there are far more in London where beekeeping is said to be trendy. Bees are NOT inherently dangerous (unless AHB) - any more than guard dogs. French beekeepers get annual insurance for 1 euro (=1 dollr) ; UK beekeepers get insurance included with their subscription. All the public sites will have been obtained originally thru negotiation - cooperation between local beekeepers and authorities. Keth and I entered the fray because the general reaction on the list was so one-sided. Acording to the media reports only 4 people got stung - before the fire brigade arrived and caused the pandemonium. My colonies are often quiet enough not to need a veil - but put one in a city and throw stones and I could get a better sting-count. So this was a fuss about nothing , but everyone was saying 'BAD bees, that should be destroyed without a second thought'. If beekeepers do not promote a reasonable attitude to bees, who will? Ron says 'easier to retreat to the country, you cannot argue bees are doing good in a town'. I am surprised. Perhaps noone has a garden in US towns? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:23:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" "Mark Winston is simply repeating what was learned early on at the start of the varroa problem." Yes, but this theme has shown beekeepers are forgetting. To solve a problem, you must remember what the problem is. So, again, it is virus that kill colonies - as virus cannot be treated directly so we control varroa as the 'carrier' (in a loose sense). However, kill all varroa and the colony still has the same high level of virus - until it dies down naturally, perhaps over say 6 to 10 weeks. What we have been discussing is not the importance of controlling varroa but to what level - at what threshold to treat. The agricultural concept of 'economic injury level' and treatment threshold were introduced and I feel made clear that varroa control is far less calculable than crop IPM where beetles eat berries on bushes. Farmers treat if the value of saved berries will be greater than the cost of treatment, not when the bush itself will die if they delay - whereas beekeepers have not yet reached the stage of thinking of saving honey, but only of stopping colonies from dying. In UK, we have taught to treat if varroa will exceed 2,500 by autumn - not to treat if only at a low level. Now lower figues are mentioned - because virus increases with much lower levels, and takes time to clear. I begin to wonder if we will not end up feeling 'a good varroa is a dead varroa' - that ANY level is harmful to honey production. If so, then the best strategy will be constant attrition, not an annual treatment that goes for one big kill. Again , Bob, nothing new, but worth discussing. Your concern is for the honey industry and you are clearly going hard for bees that will keep varroa at low levels by themselves. But as u say, beekeepers will become dependent on buying all new queens from a few pure lines. As said before, that may suit the honey industry but not hobbyists who far outnumber the professionals. We will stay interested in ways to introduce attrition into the management of our locally-adapted bees. It will help us when the association of virus with varroa is better understood and we knew better what maximum level of varroa an attrition strategy should really aim for. Till then, we are shooting blind when culling drone brood, forming artificial swarms, adding formic acid pads, spraying SOE or whatever. You say: " Come up with a solution other than a reduction in varroa load in the hive and beekeepers might pay attention" Still the search for the Holy Grail. I suspect enough solutions for a workable attrition strategy already exist, after the vast efforts of the last 15 years. The problem now seems to be to find more practical ways of applying them - not new ideas, but better practice. Perhaps releasing thymol vapour at low levels all year round by pressing capsules into the centre of the brood nest, rather than from cages partly dependent on outside temperature. Perhaps quickly dumping bees outside and spraying SOE as they run back, rather than frame by frame. Perhaps simpler, cheaper ways to vapourise oxalic acid, on the analogy of self-heating soup. I appreciate any such approach will always be too labour-intensive for professional beekeeping. As professionals have more influence than hobbyists on research grants, and you are going for bee breeding, amateurs and professionals may have to go different ways on this - I have been told several times in UK that beekeepers will have to take responsibilty for finding their own ways to manage varroa post-Apistan - and have a fear I know what underlies this - that we are indeed on our own. We can start by remembering what Mark Winston explains on virus/varroa - then try various combinations of successive treatments that lower varroa at each stage - record results - and hope a world-wide database on experience so gained will be set up one day. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:25:32 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: HFCS 55 on its way. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just ordered the drum (from LSI). It will be here the day after Labour = Day. I could have had it Monday, but we are on Holiday nest week. = Shipping was $68.00, for a total of around $277.00 for 635# of product. = My math is not so good, but that ballparks to around $.46/lb. That is = almost four times the cost of sugar, but without the mixing, mess and = hassle. I am not certain of the conversion loss for sugar syrup, but = say it is 50%; then the difference in net costs (w/time, etc) approach = zero pretty fast. I am already looking forward to spring feedings, = faster buildup and drawn comb as never before <>. JK =20 Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen =C5=90hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net=20 =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:49:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Re: roundup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "Roundup(tm). A wonderful herbicide that is as safe as Ivory Snow..... not I have had experience with roundup used on beans around my hives. Bees that are hit directly will die period. Another case of chemical company's lieing to the consumer preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:53:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: roundup In-Reply-To: <001101c489f0$91577200$44bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:39:35 -0500 From: Bob Harrison > ALWAYS TELL FARMERS TO SPRAY PESTICIDES & HERBICIDES AT DUSK WHEN BEES > ARE NOT FLYING. 1. I think some farmers will laugh, because herbicides are pesticides. Using this terminology is like saying fruit and oranges. Farmers are pretty knowledgeable about pesticides, and the use of such terminolgy will likely result in some stories told among farmers.... I think what you are trying to say is insecticides. 2. I don't worry about herbicide use. There's no point in being picky about something that is basically non-toxic to bees. Yes, I know the surfactant will kill bees, but the farmers aren't spraying them directly on the bees. Even if the hives are hit, you would only lose a few guards at the entrance. Insecticides are the ones that hurt bees at economic levels. And spraying non- residual materials at dusk is one of the best gereral strategies if insecticides have to be used. Another is to make every effort to get control of insects before bloom. Dave Green SC USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:33:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tony Bloor Subject: Re: My most recent mistake.... In-Reply-To: <200408241644.i7ODiv9o021370@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Milt I notice Thornes (GB) have stopped selling PDB crystals. There's a small paragraph in this year's catalogue: "recent research has shown this product poses a contamination risk to beeswax and honey. PDB is readily soluble in beeswax and is toxic to bees in high concentrations". That being said I can't say I've noticed any marked adverse affect in my bees over the years (used in the traditional fashion for over wintering my empty supers and a good airing in the Spring). I did go overboard with a box of wax that was to be melted down as a colony of moths had set up residence. I can still smell the PDB in the wax 'ingots' months later. Thornes are now selling Sulphur strips as an alternative to PDB. If I was you I'd use the honey for the bees and forget about human consumption. Regards Tony Bloor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:19:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: More on "Bad Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin & All, > Obviously, when suggesting negotiation in the midst of 'pandemonium' , my > tongue was in my cheek. But the theme was surely useful in discussing that > the public should be induced to take a balanced view of bees Yes, something needs to be done educating the public that not all bees in the AHB zones are AHB. People, I assume in these zones, automatically cry AHB when bees are noticed. > The kids who threw stones > could easily be dead now if the colony was truly AHB that behaved as just > described by Dennis. This was one of my points. This colony did not at all appear to me, by the information provided, to be an AHB colony. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't. At any rate with education and an aware official, considering the incident was provoked by stoning, the colony could maybe have been saved by a beekeeper. I could very well be wrong in my opinions but it is for the love of honey bees I suggested what I did. > Keth and I entered the fray because the general reaction on the list was so > one-sided. Thanks Robin, You did a far better job of clearifying my thoughts on the matter to the list. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 04:17:41 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: My most recent mistake.... In-Reply-To: <000001c47208$e4d6e550$0100a8c0@mastercomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ..." Thornes are now selling Sulphur strips as an alternative to PDB. If I was you I'd use the honey for the bees and forget about human consumption. Regards Tony Bloor..." What is the effectiveness of Sulfur, and does it not leave a residue as well? Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 04:53:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: roundup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/08/04 03:48:29 GMT Daylight Time, preacherc@CVALLEY.NET writes: <> I've heard reports that it damages beneficial insects (which presumably include bees), and is associated with non-Hodgkins lymphoma. I'm extremely suspicious of vague claims that a chemical 'breaks down' without telling me what it breaks down to. I did read somwhere that it broke down to dioxins. I can't verify any of this; does anyone know more? Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:36:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Honey Pricing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok Guys and Gals, I realize this is regional in many respects, but I'd like a bit of advice on pricing my crops this year. Here is what I have 1) Pints of almost water white 2) Pints of almost water white with comb 3) Cut Comb in plastic trays from Kelley (3.5 x 4.5 inchs ) 4) Pints of medium amber 5) Quarts of medium Amber 6) Pints of Dark amber 7) Quarts of Dark amber All measurements are in mason type jars Thank you for being there guys, I learn a lot!!!! Tim Morris Pulaski Tennessee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 05:23:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: roundup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > ALWAYS TELL FARMERS TO SPRAY PESTICIDES & HERBICIDES AT DUSK WHEN BEES > ARE NOT FLYING. Dave said: . I think some farmers will laugh, because herbicides are pesticides. Using this terminology is like saying fruit and oranges. With orchard owners in the Midwest the terminology most use for pesticides is "poison". They say : "get those hives out as we need to get the poison on". They are trying to kill bugs. fungicides most times will not kill bees (has been my experience) and are mostly for disease. I have seen bees sprayed with fungicides often. Especially in apples & almonds. I have never seen a problem even when bees were flying but others on the list may have. Herbicides most often refers to the chemical used to kill weeds and some will kill bees if sprayed directly on the bees foraging on or around the weeds the farmer is trying to kill.. All of the above can be carried back to the hive if sprayed directly on bees and the bees are not killed. Dave said: Farmers are pretty knowledgeable about pesticides, and the use of such terminolgy will likely result in some stories told among farmers.... I doubt the farmers I deal with would put out a story about my terminolgy afraid I might get upset and not pollinate their crops and they would be in big trouble. Dave said: I think what you are trying to say is insecticides. I think you paint the picture with a very broad brush. Even below you refer to herbicide. When a farmer calls and says he is going to spray around my bees he uses terminolgy like pesticide (or poison), herbicide and fungicide. I had a big kill (foragers) in a yard this year when a farmer called and said he was spraying a herbicide in an 80 acre field next to the bees. I told him OK as long as he sprayed when the bees were not flying. I later found from a neighbor he sprayed in the morning at a time the bees were in his weed field (no till farmers are the worst). The hives did not die but were knocked back so much they did not produce a honey crop. Dave said: 2. I don't worry about herbicide use. There's no point in being picky about something that is basically non-toxic to bees. Yes, I know the surfactant will kill bees, but the farmers aren't spraying them directly on the bees. Even if the hives are hit, you would only lose a few guards at the entrance. You sound like a few of the farmers I deal with. Lets take a chance with Bob's bees and spray when the bees are flying. I did not charge the farmer for the bee kill because he called me but should have as I knew he sprayed the herbicide (weed killer). All hives were effected and the dead bees out front clearly displayed the problem. Bob Ps. Farmers are famous for mixing their own mix of sprays to save labor. A few of these combinations can kill bees (and I believe have killed mine before). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:33:52 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Ascorbic Acid in Syrup-OK for bees? > I have syrup left over which is made of 2:1 Sugar to water. > It contains Ascorbic Acid as a freshening agent/anti-browning. > I also have some syrup with peach juice in as well. How much ascorbic acid? If, as I suspect, it is a tiny amount, I can't imagine that the bees would mind, as some people add all sorts of strange concoctions to their bee feed on one excuse or another, and often in amounts that might seem excessive. I think that the most common anti-mold bee-feed additive is vinegar, with some people adding as much as 1/4-cup to a 5-gallon batch of feed. Vinegar is a dilute (10% to 20%) acetic acid solution. The peach juice should be a no-brainer - there's nothing in pure peach juice that would hurt a bee in the least, no matter what the concentration. Bees love to forage in fall on fruit that has fallen to the ground and rotted. jim (There's lots of comedy and romance on television. Does that cause comedy and romance in the streets?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:58:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Re: Corn Syrup Lloyd mentioned that Cleveland Syrup would ship 5gl pails of corn syrup. Would you please provide the list their contact information. I am sure someone would be interested in calling them. Also the contact information for Chicago Sweetners, Indianapolis. Many sideliners and hobbyist would welcome the opportunity to purchase syrup with out chasing someone that buys in bulk. I intend to present this information to our local beekeepers association and to the State association so that more beekeepers will have access to this data. I partner with 2 other beekeepers in purchasing #55 HFCS by the tanker load. We provide syrup to several hobbyist while we can. One thing that should be mentioned when purchasing bulk that 10% water should be added to the #55 to prevent the syrup from geling when is cools off. Information of this sort shared freely over this list creates and invaluable asset to other beekeepers. Thanks Frank Wyatt :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:44:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Apol Subject: roundup / bee seed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all of you for your input. I took a couple of hours last night at searched the bee-l archives back to January 1990. That is a very valueable source of information! We are quite fortunate to have all that available for our use. All things considered, I am going to use roundup to kill all the junk weeds in that lot. The crud growing there is mostly yellow dock and ragweed and it has next to no value to the bees. That said, I will be planting a replacement pasture shortly thereafter. Can anyone recommend a seed mixture that would compliment both bees and large farm critters? The use of the pasture will be mainly beef cattle and / or horses. (Probably a goat or two thrown in for good measure.) I am also toying with the idea of keeping one acre for just hay, with the big critters in mind I would lean toward a typical alfalfa / orchardgrass / clover mix. Any specific suggestions on a more pro bee mixture? This idea came from a post to bee-l about a fellow doing some independent reseeding of roadside roundup spraying. (http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9701A&L=bee-l&P=R4603) Thanks, and all the best, ------------ Jason Apol ><> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:01:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: More on "Bad Bees" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I agree with this point. Although AHB colonies should be eradicated and the public needs to be protected, there was a chance this was a EHB colony. It would have been great for the image of beekeeping if a beekeeper had been called to see if he could remove the bees. If a beekeeper managed to pacify the bees with smoke and removed the bees and combs WHILE folks watched from a distance, the public would have learned more about bees than just getting the impression that all bees should automatically be killed. If he could not pacify the bees, then it would have been an indication that these bees belonged to the 'bad' race and had to be destroyed. Kids grow up these days with less parent teaching and discipline that they used to. They often know less about nature that previous generations. Any positive experience is bound to leave - hopefully - a lasting impression. Regards, Waldemar >>This was one of my points. This colony did not at all appear to me, by the information provided, to be an AHB colony. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't. At any rate with education and an aware official, considering the incident was provoked by stoning, the colony could maybe have been saved by a beekeeper. I could very well be wrong in my opinions but it is for the love of honey bees I suggested what I did. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:14:47 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Honey Pricing > I realize this is regional in many respects, > but I'd like a bit of advice on pricing my crops this year. No matter what prices you arrive at, try this: Pick a small size (let's say the pint) Get two different containers for that size (for example, a plastic squeeze bear and the plastic "BuzzyBee" container, claimed to look like a bee, but I think it looks more like Casper the Ghost...) Price one at a dollar more than the other. Try to make both look exactly as nice, use similar labels, etc. Now, track your sales. Watch the more expensive honey fly off the shelf for NO APPARENT REASON. This will convince you that you are selling a boutique product, one where higher price alone implies higher quality, higher value, and thereby desirability. Repeat the process with a price delta of $1.50, $2.00, $3.00... there's no telling what your local market will tolerate. Once you have found the highest price at which honey still flies off the shelf, use the extra money to buy some really fancy glass. Hexagons are a good bet to start, and Crabtree and Evelyn have sold overpriced jam and marmalade in them for decades. There's a gazillion different containers out there if you look around and order lots of catalogs. Once you are bottling in fancy glass, you have a package that can be re-priced in the same experimental manner as before, leaving your original retail price on a plastic container looking like a real bargain. Now you are done. You are serving both the "snob" market and the "families with kids" market, and you are making more money than you thought you would on the same net harvest. Congratulations, you just skipped 2 years and about $70K getting an MBA from Harvard, and now know more about pricing than all the other beekeepers that sell honey at retail. Tell your family that your degree is in "Microeconomic Pricing Theory and Arbitrage". jim (The proof that intelligent life exists on other planets is that they have never tried to contact us.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:40:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Robin Dartington" wrote: > Prof Mark Winston, Simon Fraser University, has lectured in Uk showing he > has reserched variation in the level of varroa that kills colonies depending > on level of virus. I think that it was Brenda Ball who first suggested the link with viruses and we have therefore known for some time that if there is virus present then higher levels of varroa will cause more virus to be injected and therefore more bees will die; I would suggest that would be a fairly obvious assumption once you know about the link between varroa and virus. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:55:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bob Harrison" wrote: > On a positive note a bee which will tolerate varroa has been found but is > the result of a closed breeding plan from many lines. > The problem now is as Allen Dick said many years ago would be is that the > production queens will have to be bought every year as was the case with the > Starline & Midnight line from Dadant as the lines used to produce the line > will need to be maintained in their pure state. Another treadmill? The same was seen here with Buckfast bees, but in their case the problem is the bad temper often produced by a first cross - as my father found to his cost when he went for Buckfast. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:47:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Dick Allen" wrote: > I wish that was true in my case. Last summer I had more bees with shriveled wings in > my hives than I've ever had in the past. So perhaps you have a particularly susceptible strain of bee? Most of mine are mongrels and treatment with thymol for the last 7 years - no Apistan or Bayvarol - resulted in moderate (up to 30%) winter losses at first. Now losses are much lower and DWV is virtually absent. Average crop (measured on colonies fed for winter) has improved slightly - although the appalling summer (monsoon season?) here will probably dent it a bit this year. Incidentally, I heard on the news tonight that this has been the wettest August on record; they were talking about 'once in a thousand years' - well, I can cope with it if we don't get another before 3004! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ . :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:33:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to my posting about susceptibility of bees to viruses: Bob: > The key to the bees surviving varroa in my opinion is in cutting the number > of varroa in the hive. Period! Most researchers in the world stand with > me. Surely, cutting the number of varroa in the hive does not enable the bees to 'survive varroa' - it simply enables the bees to survive with the viruses present by reducing the number of bees/larvae infected by injection of the viruses into the haemolymph. Here,as we all know, lies the treadmill - since it is necessary to keep on attempting to eliminate varroa. My point was that we seem to be concentrating on the varroa, which is the vector, rather than looking at the real cause of the problem, the viruses. If we had bees that were not susceptible to these viruses (esp DWV and APV), then varroa would be much less of a problem. Of course, the stock answer is that we cannot control viruses, so must keep killing the varroa. But is this true? Sac brood is caused by a virus, but is easily cured by requeening from a resistant strain. Perhaps if more work was done on resistance to DWV and APV, rather than ways to kill varroa, then we might move ahead more quickly. > The U.S. with its huge pollination needs could not afford to simply let > hives die as the Russians did. I am not suggesting that anyone should simply let hives die! I am just questioning the approach to the problem. > Perhaps a hobby beekeeper in a small city will come up with a cure for > varroa or a bee which will tolerate varroa but I would bet my money on the > very small group of researchers & beekeepers doing serious varroa > research. Maybe so, but this does not preclude hobby, or side-line, beekeepers from doing useful work. For example, in order to get good tempered bees we could wait for 'scientists' to produce a strain of docile bee and then breed large numbers of queens from that stock. On the other hand, hobby beekeepers could select for docile stock, either by queen rearing from the best - or by culling the worst. I theorise that we can apply a similar approach to the virus problem associated with varroa and in this case the varroa themselves will do the culling - if we let them. By attempting to kill virtually all the varroa we remain on the treadmill; but if we use less effective treatments and tolerate a moderate (to be defined!) varroa population, then the most susceptible colonies will not survive. Of course, we do not want varroa levels to be so high that virtually all colonies die (because the US has huge pollination needs!), but should be able to cope with slightly higher losses if this leads to resistant bees. I know that much work has been done on killing varroa (because there is money to be made); I know that much work has been done to establish the how, when and why of colony collapse due to the viruses vectored by varroa. What I ask is whether any work has been done to establish variation in susceptibility to the viruses, especially when they are injected directly into the haemolymph. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:18:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Science is not to be disputed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/08/2004 05:02:10 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > Beekeeping is local may be the best claim of all beekeeping and that > is why I subscribe to beekeepers keeping bees locally with local stock if > not their very own stock. This can be disputed but I may as well give up > beekeeping right now if beekeeping is not local. > BIBBA, the Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders' Association has suffered several name changes over the years. It started out 40 years ago as the Village Bee Breeders' Association as its founder, Beowolf Cooper, posthumous author of The Honeybees of the British Isles, noticed that each village had its own strain of bees. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:13:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Matt Olmstead Subject: Bee o pack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was woundering what people were charging for their bee o pack honey ? = I have a store that wants all of mine,I think I ended up with about 70 = that I will sell. If you want you can email me at druid1@pshift.net Thanks Matt :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:26:59 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: roundup In-Reply-To: <000901c48a3d$7166fef0$c223dad0@D54HBR41> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit preacher wrote: >>"Roundup(tm). A wonderful herbicide that is as safe as Ivory Snow..... >> This statement just penetrated my brain....Ivory Snow will kill bees just as quick as every other soap,, :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:43:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Lavender Just so that it is in the archives, if you put 7 strong hives on 5 acres irrigated lavender, don't expect more that a few pounds per hive. Next year I plan on trying maybe 3 hives. Best to the list Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:04:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: egbean Subject: cottonseed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm wandering if anyone has tried using cottonseed cake or cubes for = smoker fuel and if so what is your take on it's use? Thanks :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:57:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Peter Edwards" if there is virus present > then higher levels of varroa will cause more virus to be injected and > therefore more bees will die; ... fairly obvious ......" We have to go beyond the obvious to devise a control strategy. Mark Winston shows charts of the % of colonies that die with various varroa loads...some numbers. The UK strategy so far has been to allow varroa to rise to a peak in late summer (say 2,500), and reduce with Apistan (95% efficient) to say 125 - then apply Apistan again in spring if varroa level is too high to wait until late summer once more. This has ignored the virus effect - that a high level of virus in late summer will take until say mid autumn to die back when the effected bees die out(and their direct contacts) die. And , as has been said, noone has got to the point of sophistication where we can estimate the loss of honey production due to the rising level of virus during the early summer. So we need more numbers on the effect of virus and the associated varroa level. Perhaps the varroa problem is 'solved' when we know the level varroa should be kept down to throughout the year (say 300 and 1,000) - calling for a succession of mild treatments, each of which does not need to be highly efficient. A 50% reduction would curb 1,000 back to 500 - and substances (such as thymol) that reduce varroa reproduction might slow if not stop population growth. So we could consider again various substances (?tea tree oil?) that have been discarded because they were not efficient enough for the one big annual hit strategy - but could help in a persistent attrition strategy. These thoughts are not new but where is the leading edge today on this approach? Can anyone say? We do need an alternative to the breeding of a few super-lines of resistant bees that would make all beekeepers dependent on a few queen producers. This thread started on the question of how to relate mite fall to overall varroa population. That is an essential part of any control system - and we do not seem to be too sure whether the factor in summer is 30x daily mite fall or 100. Still a very confusing picture to explain to the new beekeeper. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:00:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Small cell size In-Reply-To: <200408221615.i7MExrV5009163@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis Murrell wrote: > I replaced all the combs in some of my hives when I converted them to small > cell size. The small cell comb allowed my bees to coexist with the mites,and > the small cell hives overwintered stronger with no loss. These hives were > also better producers than my other hives and the queens appeared to fair > better. Dennis, I appreciate your past posts on the status of you work with small cell size. They are the most objective I have seen on the subject. Could you give us a more detailed review of where you currently stand, including treatments, if any? Bill Truesdell Bath, AMine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:54:13 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: roundup / bee seed > Can anyone recommend a seed mixture that would compliment > both bees and large farm critters? The use of the pasture > will be mainly beef cattle and/or horses. Unless you have an existing large hayfield or pasture, you'd get more blossoms from a few of the more popular nectar-producing trees than from an acre of plants. (Consider the number of blooms in the "blooming spherical volume" of a tree versus the "blooming planar surface area" of a field.) Dollar for dollar, your best investment for both bees and browsing mammals would be in a decent mix of overseeded early and late-blooming clovers. A mix of "White Dutch", "Ladino", and a sweet clover (white or yellow) simply spreads out the bloom periods to further extend the nectar production period. For the mammals alone, toss in a light overseeding of alfalfa. The bees won't care, but horse owners love to see it in the bales. I spent the past 5 years overseeding a 550 acre hayfield to both "make hay" and "extend the nectar flow" for colonies not hauled up into the mountains for Sourwood. The first 4 years were drought, and the 5th year was a spring washout in Virginia. Lousy weather for beekeeping. But this year has been rewarding. Everything came up, and the colors were vivid. The hay from the first cutting alone sold out quickly at a very nice price (in square bales for horses), generating much more revenue than the honey ever could. That said, uncontrolled browsing/feeding on clovers can cause some problems for both cattle and horses: Horses can get liver damage from excessive red clover consumption, with the only external symptom being rashes on the lighter areas of their coats. Any type of clover can cause "the slobbers", a harmless, but socially unacceptable condition for riding horses. Cows can get "bloat" from excessive clover, but this varies from farmer to farmer. My neighbor is a dairy farmer, and would have been happy to buy my entire hay crop in the event that rain ruined it for the horses during the drying period. He overseeds his hayfields with giant red clover as a protein booster for his cows. jim (Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:07:26 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator > This thread started on the question of how to relate mite fall to overall > varroa population. That is an essential part of any control system - Howso? What possible advantage is provided by from knowing how many mites are in any specific colony? > and we do not seem to be too sure whether the factor in summer is > 30x daily mite fall or 100. Nor do we care. (By "we" I mean myself and a few other folks who own both a white lab coat and beehives, and therefore have no excuse for not keeping up with science and "implementing best practices".) > Still a very confusing picture to explain to the new beekeeper. Naw, its easy: a) You cannot control that which you do not measure. b) You can't count all the mites, and you can't count all the bees. c) Both populations are moving targets. d) There is a very high correlation between mite drop and total mite population. As long as your measurement method is consistent and your rules for counting consistent, you have a valid basis for a trend line representing mite population growth. e) There is no point (e). Nothing else matters. jim (USA politics for UK residents: Republicans are just like your Conservative Party. Democrats are also like your Conservative Party.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:10:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: AHB in Alabama MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This headline from the Birmingham paper... Africanized bees, nicknamed "killer bees," have been trapped for the first time in Alabama, state Agriculture Commissioner Ron Sparks said Tuesday. The more aggressive bees were caught in Mobile County in a routine trapping program conducted by the Department of Agriculture and Industries. In the last two weeks, four of the six bee swarms trapped there have tested positive as Africanized bees. First time east of Texas, in any numbers I believe. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:47:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Dick Allen" wrote: > I wish that was true in my case. Last summer I had more bees with shriveled wings in > my hives than I've ever had in the past. So perhaps you have a particularly susceptible strain of bee? Most of mine are mongrels and treatment with thymol for the last 7 years - no Apistan or Bayvarol - resulted in moderate (up to 30%) winter losses at first. Now losses are much lower and DWV is virtually absent. Average crop (measured on colonies fed for winter) has improved slightly - although the appalling summer (monsoon season?) here will probably dent it a bit this year. Incidentally, I heard on the news tonight that this has been the wettest August on record; they were talking about 'once in a thousand years' - well, I can cope with it if we don't get another before 3004! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:44:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small cell size Hi Bill and Everyone, My small cell hives haven't received any mite treatments. I have stopped monitoring natural mite fall as the numbers have remained consistently low. The bees can take care of mites by themselves so they are no longer an issue for me. These hives build up faster in the spring. They are great producers at double the local average. And overwinter better than my large cell hives did. I haven't lost a single small cell hive yet. Although, I have had to replace a few queens after the third season which is to be expected. I established a few colonies on large cell comb to test some ideas concerning small cell size and seasonal bee size. These hives were in the same yards as my small cell hives. The natural mite fall increased through the season in these hives and one of them began showing symptoms of PMS. I treated the large cell hives with oxalic acid to avoid contaiminating the comb. I also built a top bar hive to see what the bees would freely build for themselves. The results were quite surprising. The broodnest has a definate location and structure. The comb inside the broodnest tapers in size from top to bottom with small cell sized comb located where the bees would concentrate brood rearing during the spring and fall. I have seen this same structure repeated in three additional top bar hives. You can read about it at: http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/cells.htm I now think that the bees do better on small cell because it's a better match with what they would build for themselves, expecially during the spring and fall. And also, because they are on clean wax. But small cell beekeeping has it share of problems mainly related to the expense of getting enough small cell comb drawn and the great number of hives lost while regressing. Small cell size has been promoted as a panacea for all beekeeping problems. It was based on the idea that bees have been 'artificially' enlarged by the use of large cell sized foundation. My research indicates that just didn't happen. http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/musin.htm The Lusby's pointed me in the right direction concerning the importance of the broodnest comb to bee health but for the wrong reason. Most of the speculation and the methodology attached to small cell beekeeping is based upon this erroneous premise. But the results of using small cell are real. Although I still keep six small cell hives, small cell beekeeping is no longer my primary focus. I am working with natural comb in my top bar hives. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:39:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB in Alabama In-Reply-To: <8518F15BB956014C90B2E2CC0D4C4F9F455EA2@w2k3telnet.root.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kim Flottum writes: The more aggressive bees were caught in Mobile County in a routine trapping program conducted by the Department of Agriculture and Industries. In the last two weeks, four of the six bee swarms trapped there have tested positive as Africanized bees. Reply: Amazing that where the biggest concentrations of small cell beekeepers have changed over their whole outfits this seems to crop up. Bolling Bee must be doing good then. Yet Question: Since all yellow and black bees as small are still lumped together in the USA for ID for AHB, instead of ID by race/strain, then what are they really seeing? Regards Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:45:22 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: roundup / bee seed Comments: To: jfischer@SUPERCOLLIDER.COM In-Reply-To: <000001c48b63$68398600$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You have to be careful with Ladino clover, and other clovers. It can be toxic to horses. I will look up the exact chemicals, developmental stage (of the clover) and post the specifics to the list, but if horses are involved, I sure you are aware they are gastronomically delicate.. Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:40:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: roundup Perhaps a few of you forget who grows the billions of flowers and provides our bees with sutch an abundance of nectar, we are able to make a living off honey collection. It is the farmers field to which we use to gather nectar. It is our responsibility to inform the farmer to ensure proper communication when insecticide programs are going to be used. Herbicide losses are very raire, nad anyone who says otherwise has not alot to complain about. General applications of herbs are done in eary plant growthe before any real nectar sources are out, except of dandilions and especially on no till farms. Concentrate your resources on insecticides, the real problem to beekeepers. We cant stop farmers from contoling damaging bugs. It is all economics, and I'm sure we all can understand that,. To stop them from making a living will directly affect the way we make a living. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:28:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Check out WVBA Home Page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New beekeepers web page http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/ Click here: WVBA Home Page :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Cunningham Subject: Chicago Sweeteners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The contact information for Chicago Sweeteners that I use is for = Indianapolis. They have a web site that lists all of their offices. Info for Indy is 317-844-6688, this will put in contact with Jeff = Anderson. =20 John Cunningham 100+ hives in Indiana :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:47:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB in Alabama MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee said: Amazing that where the biggest concentrations of small cell beekeepers have changed over their whole outfits this seems to crop up. Bolling Bee must be doing good then. Yet Question: Since all yellow and black bees as small are still lumped together in the USA for ID for AHB, instead of ID by race/strain, then what are they really seeing? I agree most AHB id in the U.S. is primitive as most ID still follows wing venation ID set up by Ruttner over 25 years ago. Some DNA testing goes on I am told but most ID is done by wing venation. Size (small cell bees) has nothing to do with AHb ID by wing venation but *race* (as Dee points out can as Ruttner wrote was unable to delimit Apis mellifera adansonii (Latreille 1804) from Apis mellifera capensis (Escholtz 1822 ) on the basis on wing characters ( The Hive and Honey Bee 92 edition pg. 36). In other words bees from one of the African races which are not aggressive might test AHB and not be aggressive at all. Might not the monticola bee test AHB? In my own looking into the matter with a friend and a microscope we see bees with a certain amount of wing hooks seem to be aggressive regardless of race. Have others doing research on aggressive bees noticed the same thing or simply a coincidence? Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:41:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: More on "Bad Bees" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On the New Zealand beekeeping web site Jim Fischer brought to the list’s attention several months back there are several recent articles on AHB encounters here in the U.S. http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/News-index.html After reading the articles, click on ‘Archives of stories’ for a few more reports of AHB encounters. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:16:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: Re: roundup In-Reply-To: <003c01c48a8d$87422f60$0dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Might be informative to check out the label and msds sheets on roundup--try the following web site: http://www.cdms.net/pfa/LUpdateMsg.asp Jim (another one) Smith Tulelake, CA State of Jefferson Klamath Basin (where we have irrigation water so far) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:21:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tony Bloor Subject: Re: My most recent mistake.... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, Jonathan, I'm no chemist. I can only quote what's in the Thornes catalogue. "When ignited the strips give off Sulphur Dioxide which is heavier than air and sinks though the pile of supers and frames....." "Sulphur Dioxide is one of the most effective methods of controlling wax moth. Sulphur Dioxide .....is highly volatile, not fat soluble and there poses very little risk to bees, wax and honey. It is used extensively in the wine industry for fumigating wine barrels and vats". They go on to say that this method of Wax Moth control has been used on Continental Europe for many years. So whether there are any "Continental European Bee-L ers" with experience of Sulphur Strips who wish to comment? I think quite recently in the UK, at least, there has come a raft of new legislation about the use chemicals(I understand a lot of weed killers etc that have been used domestically for years have been taken off the market because of it). The Health and Safety Executive have apparently informed Thornes that the use of PDB crystals for fumigation purposes is illegal, so I suspect that the two issues are connected. I assume that all beekeeping suppliers in the UK will follow Thornes' lead and I suppose from a legal viewpoint they'd be unwise not to. Which, of course will mean we(in the UK) will have no choice but to use a method other than PDB whether we like it or not. Regards Tony =========================== What is the effectiveness of Sulfur, and does it not leave a residue as well? Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:58:48 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small cell size > Small cell size has been promoted as a panacea for all beekeeping problems. > It was based on the idea that bees have been 'artificially' enlarged by the > use of large cell sized foundation. My research indicates that just didn't > happen. I spent a few hours at the Ohio State (Wooster) bee lab this spring with Dave Heilman, and he gave me his very extensive tour of the "Bee Museum". I asked about the collection of foundation mill rolls, and he answered that many of them were "small cell". Perhaps they made the same error that you mentioned on your web page: "The 4.83 that the Roots refer to, works out to about 5.21mm to 5.375mm cell size using the table in the text! That's the size range of foundation produced in the US today!" Not having brought a micrometer or even a good steel rule, I did not measure them myself. While Dave no longer works at Wooster due to state budget cuts, Jim Tew could show you the rolls, or have someone measure and photograph them for you. jim (If the "war on terror" was about stopping terrorism, it would be the "war on terrorism" or "on terrorists". Therefore, the "war on terror" isn't about stopping you from being afraid, its about making you more afraid.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:05:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tony Bloor Subject: My most recent mistake.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jonathon The address you require is: https://secure.thorne.co.uk/ If you enter the on line shop, scroll down and enter the 'Health Section', scroll down towards the bottom there are details of the Sulphur strips. Regards Tony :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:30:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CAIR Subject: Need hard copy or link for article on Pollen-Bee Bread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Does anyone know where I can find the following article, either a hard copy or a link? Herbert, E. W. Jr.; Shimanuki, H. (1978) - Chemical composition and nutritive value of bee-collected and bee-stored pollen, in Apidologie 9, pp.33-40. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:31:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small cell size Hi Jim and Everyone, The 'mistake' that AI Root made would be a logic and very easy one to make especially if the engraving technology of the day required a single cell size. When looking for a single size, I'll bet they selected comb from the center of the broodnest. It would be small cell size there and the most logical place to measure. They built the mill to enhance comb building and probably found just what AI did. That rather than be readily accepted and enhance comb building, it retarded the process and was rejected after awhile. That's the same experience small cell beekeepers repeat today. That's why so many of the posts concerning small cell beekeeping deal with getting enough acceptable comb drawn out. It is not easy or cheap. AI and others probably suspected they made an error measuring the comb. Going back to the hive, they wouldn't find much comb smaller than those first measurements. But they would find lots of worker sized brood cells that were larger. So they adjusted the cell size upward, although it was still within the natural range for worker cell, and the bees readily accepted it. Those that didn't move the cell size upward probably had lots of unhappy customers who readily switched to AI's product:>) It's interesting to note that the same error is made by both large and small cell proponents. The large cell camp asks if small cell is so natural, why is it so hard? That's a great question! The small cell camp can't adjust the foundation size upward without loosing the positive results seen, so blame the bees 'artificially enlarged' genetics. And much time and effort is spent by the small cell camp trying to find the right bee and keep it 'pure'. Yet, both camps are stuck on a single cell size and fail to see the importance of the broodnest structure. Sticking to a single size has negative consequences whether large or small sized foundations are used. It just doesn't match what the bee do when left to themselves. I think when we beekeepers get it right using the bees biology as a guide, the bees will have all the advantages of both camps without the liabilities of either. Maybe there will be lots of foundation mills donated to the bee museums:>) Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:51:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This posting was acknowledged, appears in the archive, but does not appear to have been distributed. PE. In response to my posting about susceptibility of bees to viruses: Bob: > The key to the bees surviving varroa in my opinion is in cutting the number > of varroa in the hive. Period! Most researchers in the world stand with > me. Surely, cutting the number of varroa in the hive does not enable the bees to 'survive varroa' - it simply enables the bees to survive with the viruses present by reducing the number of bees/larvae infected by injection of the viruses into the haemolymph. Here,as we all know, lies the treadmill - since it is necessary to keep on attempting to eliminate varroa. My point was that we seem to be concentrating on the varroa, which is the vector, rather than looking at the real cause of the problem, the viruses. If we had bees that were not susceptible to these viruses (esp DWV and APV), then varroa would be much less of a problem. Of course, the stock answer is that we cannot control viruses, so must keep killing the varroa. But is this true? Sac brood is caused by a virus, but is easily cured by requeening from a resistant strain. Perhaps if more work was done on resistance to DWV and APV, rather than ways to kill varroa, then we might move ahead more quickly. > The U.S. with its huge pollination needs could not afford to simply let > hives die as the Russians did. I am not suggesting that anyone should simply let hives die! I am just questioning the approach to the problem. > Perhaps a hobby beekeeper in a small city will come up with a cure for > varroa or a bee which will tolerate varroa but I would bet my money on the > very small group of researchers & beekeepers doing serious varroa > research. Maybe so, but this does not preclude hobby, or side-line, beekeepers from doing useful work. For example, in order to get good tempered bees we could wait for 'scientists' to produce a strain of docile bee and then breed large numbers of queens from that stock. On the other hand, hobby beekeepers could select for docile stock, either by queen rearing from the best - or by culling the worst. I theorise that we can apply a similar approach to the virus problem associated with varroa and in this case the varroa themselves will do the culling - if we let them. By attempting to kill virtually all the varroa we remain on the treadmill; but if we use less effective treatments and tolerate a moderate (to be defined!) varroa population, then the most susceptible colonies will not survive. Of course, we do not want varroa levels to be so high that virtually all colonies die (because the US has huge pollination needs!), but should be able to cope with slightly higher losses if this leads to resistant bees. I know that much work has been done on killing varroa (because there is money to be made); I know that much work has been done to establish the how, when and why of colony collapse due to the viruses vectored by varroa. What I ask is whether any work has been done to establish variation in susceptibility to the viruses, especially when they are injected directly into the haemolymph. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:12:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Robin Dartington" wrote: > We have to go beyond the obvious to devise a control strategy. The 'obvious' is sometimes overlooked by those who bury themselves in a surfeit of data. > Mark Winston shows charts of the % of colonies that die with various varroa loads... But only under the conditions applying at that time - he could not possibly have looked at every possible variable. > The UK strategy so far has been to allow varroa to rise to a peak in late > summer (say 2,500), and reduce with Apistan (95% efficient) to say 125 - > then apply Apistan again in spring if varroa level is too high to wait until > late summer once more. 'The UK strategy' is a bit too broad brush for me! It may be the official line from the NBU, but their hands were tied in the strategies that they were able to recommend. Many of us have used alternative strategies very successfully for a long time. > This has ignored the virus effect - that a high > level of virus in late summer will take until say mid autumn to die back > when the effected bees die out(and their direct contacts) die. Surely that is not entirely correct? Which virus are we talking about here? My understanding is that APV present in late summer will, if there are sufficient varroa present to act as vectors, lead to winter bees that will only survive for an average 88 days - so the colony probably dies out, slowly, and probably collapses in January. DWV can reduce the number of foragers dramatically, leading to early collapse of the colony. > This thread started on the question of how to relate mite fall to overall > varroa population. That is an essential part of any control system Not necessarily. It depends on your definition of control system - and there are other ways of monitoring. >we do not seem to be too sure whether the factor in summer is 30x daily mite > fall or 100. And never will - there are just too many variables. A single multiplier could only work under standard conditions - colony strength, type of bee, type of hive, the season, forage, numbers and type of other pathogens present - need I go on? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:39:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Lavender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Tim Vaughan" wrote: > if you put 7 strong hives on 5 acres > irrigated lavender, don't expect more that a few pounds per hive. Something wrong there, surely? Eva Crane in 'Honey' gives lavender as a group 4 plant - 101-200kg per hectare - and the French produce tons of the stuff! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:05:12 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Lavender Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I recall an article by Mark Winston in Bee Culture in which he mentions coming across some piece of information that claimed that lavendar honey contained some substance that's harmful to humans. I believe Mark said he'd continue to occasionally enjoy the delicate taste of lavendar honey despite of the news... Waldemar LI, NY PS. I never had the pleasure to try lavendar honey. I once stayed at a B&B in Provance in France. The lavendar row that surrounded the swimming pool had a lot of visiting bees... ============================== "Tim Vaughan" wrote: > if you put 7 strong hives on 5 acres > irrigated lavender, don't expect more that a few pounds per hive. Something wrong there, surely? Eva Crane in 'Honey' gives lavender as a group 4 plant - 101-200kg per hectare - and the French produce tons of the stuff! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:14:00 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Sucrocide. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I just ordered a pint of sucrocide to rid my bees of mites. I have not treated for mites in 3 years and now see a lot of bees with shriveled wings and mites. Has anyone tried applying Sucrocide with a Windex-type plastic spray bottle? Or do I need to get a high-pressure garden-style sprayer? Any comments regarding your experience with Sucrocide - as to its effectiveness or lack thereof, queen vulnerability etc. - would be most appreciated. Some folks in my area have tried and like to use food-grade mineral oil applied with a Sears fogger. Anyone else have good experience with it? Waldemar LI, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:47:29 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: Sucroside. In-Reply-To: <20040827.111445.15747.442298@webmail10.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "... Has anyone tried applying Sucrocide with a Windex-type plastic spray bottle? Or do I need to get a high-pressure garden-style sprayer?..." Make sure you don't have any contamination in the sprayer you use, if it has been used before. I have an out-yard I manage for another beekeeper. I used a sprayer that has the graduations on the side so I could see how much I applied per frame. I only did one hive out of ten, and had boards under the hives. Funny thing is the hive with the treatment dropped less thatn30/day, where as the others (untreated) dropped closer to 50. Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:55:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Small cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yet, both camps are stuck on a single cell size and fail to see the > importance of the broodnest structure. Sticking to a single size has > negative consequences whether large or small sized foundations are > used. It just doesn't match what the bee do when left to themselves. > > I think when we beekeepers get it right using the bees biology as a > guide, the bees will have all the advantages of both camps without > the liabilities of either. Maybe there will be lots of foundation > mills donated to the bee museums:>) Amen. I am sure we had this same discussion here before, more than once, and calls to reinvent beekeeping for the current era. I won't repeat them all here, but they are in the logs. The Langstroth hive has its place, but there is room for diversity. The laws requiring moveable comb,, in particular, are archaic. With current levels of beekeeper education, the current tools and knowledge we have, and the many diverse uses we have for bees, other configurations make a lot of sense. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:57:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I theorise that we can apply a similar approach to the virus problem > associated with varroa and in this case the varroa themselves will do > the culling - if we let them. By attempting to kill virtually all > the varroa we remain on the treadmill; but if we use less effective > treatments and tolerate a moderate (to be defined!) varroa > population, then the most susceptible colonies will not survive. Of > course, we do not want varroa levels to be so high that virtually all > colonies die (because the US has huge pollination needs!), but should > be able to cope with slightly higher losses if this leads to > resistant bees. This makes sense, but there are other considerations, too. If -- and this is a big IF -- the beekeeper has committment to a breeding program, and if that beekeeper has the resources -- money, time, education, discipline -- to follow through, then this can be a worthwhile avenue. However, for most of us, I suspect that completion of such a project is doubtful. I know from experience that we may have big plans, and great expectations, but we often wind up buying replacement stock from a convenient supplier, moving, retiring, getting sick, losing interest, changing direction due to an opportunity... etc., etc. It happens more often than not. In such cases, little is accomplished in return for the effort and sacrifice. Unless we are certain that we can -- and will -- persevere, we may be wiser to leave this selection and breeding to those who can and do -- and support their efforts by buying their stock in preference over others, and limit varroa populations in our own hives, however we can, to assure that we do not take needless and pointless losses. Another thought: We know that the problem of virus transmission becomes a lethal problem when mite loads increase to where multiple foundress mites are found in more than the occasional cell. AFAIK, varroa do not by choice enter cells already occupied by another foundress, and thus, we can deduce that these chance multiple infestations are likely to increase with mite populations (many seekers) and reducing brood area (fewer choices of cells). We need to be particularly careful to maintain the ratio of varroa to brood below the level where frequent occurences of multiple foundresses per cell become a statistical certainty. The probability function (multiple foundresses/cell) rises much more rapidly than the mite/brood cell ratio, and explains why colonies tend to collapse suddenly as the varroa load increases and at the end of the summer when the brood rearing slows. Anything we can do to avoid a high mite/brood ratio saves colonies. Unless we are committed and capable breeders, failure to control varroa levels will not do us -- or anyone -- any good. IMO, anyhow. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:25:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Catch The Buzz Changing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Catch The Buzz is Changing, and you'll need to change with it. After several years of sending these messages in the same format, both Catch The Buzz, and the entire Bee Culture web site are changing. Effective early next week, when you head for www.BeeCulture.com, you will notice a significant difference in the format and content of our web page. But now, because of this change, we need you to signup for the Buzz again. It's simple, really. Simply go to http://24.144.208.22/content/catch_buzz.cfm and fill out the form. You may be able to click directly on this link, or, you may have to use the control button and click on this link, or, you may have to copy and paste it into the address line on your browser to get to the page. In any event, get there this weekend or early next week and sign up for Catch The Buzz, so you don't miss even one exciting Buzz message. Thank you for all the years of following our Buzz articles. We plan on having lots more. The Editors. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:57:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis said: The small cell camp can't adjust the foundation size upward without loosing the positive results seen, so blame the bees 'artificially enlarged' genetics. If not I would blame the bee they are using. I am seeing everything I want on 5.1 mm. foundation. Lusby's method: (4.9mm) I see positive results from the Lusby's using only pristine cappings wax to make their comb. I also consider rolling your own and wiring very labor intensive let alone expensive. Bob's method:(5.1mm) I find by using an unwaxed plastic foundation and getting the bees to draw all new comb the same thing as above with a hell of a lot less effort as far as getting uncontaiminated comb. The unwaxed plastic is very hard to get drawn but you do not have to worry about getting any possible contaminated wax. Putting wax from from own cappings on plastic foundation works also. Dennis said: And much time and effort is spent by the small cell camp trying to find the right bee and keep it 'pure'. We are all looking for the *right bee*. I have three different lines I am currently working with which produce honey as well as my old varroa crashing lines, are actually gentler, requeen better after swarming and may never need a varroa or tracheal mite treatment again. Time will tell. Off on another subject but will return to topic later! I guess this post might be the time to say I am working on a time saving method of using the avachem sucrose octanoate product of Dadant with a special formula of Fischer Bee Quick from Jim Fischer. I thank Dadant for supplying the S.O.E. and Jim Fischer for supplying the special formula Bee Quick. I ordered some new fume boards today for the testing and have made up a special design board for the bees to exit the hive on. The idea: After the last supers are removed you simply leave the fume board on the hive and all the bees exit the hive to be sprayed down by the beekeeper and then re enter the hive after treatment with the SOE. Both the BEE quick and the SOE are safe for the beekeeper and do not contaminate wax and honey. I do recommend the board as driving the queen into the grass might not be the best idea but only my opinion and further testing might prove the board I made not needed. Will keep the list posted. Back to topic: I can not see a reason for me converting to a smaller cell size. I wondered a few years ago if downsizing might be the answer but now believe dropping a couple mm in cell size and picking up some Lusby queens would not be the solution I was looking for. Allen Dick said he saw varroa in brood when he looked at the Lusby's bees. I have got bees which you can not find varroa in except by natural fall or tearing apart all brood comb. All hives carry varroa these days but when varroa first arrived you could find varroa on every brood comb you looked at in Augest in Missouri. I do believe changing brood wax to be a step in the right direction for healthy bees. Luby's were the first to say change wax . I believe much of the brood comb in use in the world needs replaced! Dennis said: Yet, both camps are stuck on a single cell size and fail to see the importance of the broodnest structure. Sticking to a single size has negative consequences whether large or small sized foundations are used. It just doesn't match what the bee do when left to themselves. I keep a frame of plastic foundation around to show beekeepers what little control beekeepers have over the size cells bee draw from foundation. The bees completely ignored the worker cell size and drew about 60% of the cells drone size. Something to think about when considering cell size: If any fertilized egg can become a queen (research says a perfect insect) and the egg/larva/pupa is raised in a cell we consider too large and of sloppy porportions then how important is cell size really. I have seen tens of thousands of normal worker bees raised in drone cells? The research of Elbert Jaycox in the book "Beekeeping in the Midwest" showed that bees could be raised which were up to 17% smaller than what was considered *normal size* for the period. Efforts at a smaller sized failed. Jaycox also showed a bee could bee raised which was approx. 17% larger. Efforts at a larger A. mellifera failed. Excellent post Dennis! I appreciate your honesty and points made. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:16:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, The simple answer to your post would be that when I control varroa I do not have a virus problem. Only do I see a P.M.S. problem when varroa loads approach threshold. Do others on the list see the same thing? Interesting that all the buzz about "Kashmir Virus hits B.C. Bees" being published in bee mags & Speedy Bee completely looks past varroa as part of the problem but only a method of spread. The beekeepers grapevine points to those bees having varroa problems and PMS ( real problem and not the Kashmir virus). I am only passing on information told to me and possibly not accurate so maybe I should not even post as I am not on the front line in B.C.. Comments? Maybe Allen Dick will comment as many U.S. beekeepers are puzzeled by Paul Vanwestendorp placing the blame directly on the Kashmir virus and not varroa. It is my opinion and of several other beekeepers that if varroa was controlled in those BC hives the Kashmir virus would disappear but what do we know. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:01:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Small cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen Dick said he saw varroa in brood when he looked at the Lusby's > bees. Actually, we did not find *any* varroa the bees had not already discovered and uncapped, and that was only in a few cells per hive. Some had none that we could see. The article is at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/dick/bcjun02.htm FWIW, we tried some plastic 4.9 foundation that Dee kindly sent us. It didn't work out too well, but that was our fault. Joe just made up some hives of the foundation and dumped some bees in. See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm#cellsize | Trying 4.9 plastic foundation for the pictures. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:26:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Kashmir Virus and Sour Gas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Maybe Allen Dick will comment as many U.S. beekeepers are puzzeled by > Paul Vanwestendorp placing the blame directly on the Kashmir virus > and not varroa. I know Paul well, and he is no fool. I think the article http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/displayarticle1597.html was qualified subsequently by http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/displayarticle1597.html, but I imagine the reporter did not comprehend the mention of varroa, if it was made. All this fuss was at about the time of the avian flu (a vurus) outbreak in chickens in BC that resulted in millions of chickens being slaughtered. See http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_chickens20040405 Reporters hear what they want to hear, and will try to tell you what to say. Near Calgary, there is a big stir about sour gas wells being drilled in the region (with very stringent safety measures). The opponents seize on anything -- honest or not -- to try to create public panic. Somehow a story got into the Globe & Mail about bees being affected by sour gas wells and I had a reporter phone up yesterday for corroberation. I had a very hard time getting her to hear what I said, not what she wanted to hear. What she was describing apparently came from some professor who had linked snail problems with H2S and somehow extrapolated it to bees. It sounded more like ithe effects of imadaclprid. Whatever. I said it *might* be possible, but I had never heard of it and doubt it -- and I use gas well roads for bee access all the time. They are well graveled :) I guess I should not have allowed that 'anything is possible'. She wanted to quote me. I finally had to tell her flat out that someone was pulling the presses leg as far as I can tell, and that she needed to track down some credible beekeeper who had actually seen what she described. It wasn't going to be me. When you talk to reporters about something you know a little about, and you see what they are ready to believe, you start to think that maybe it isn't really worth watching the news. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:21:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "allen dick" responded: > Unless we are committed and capable breeders, failure to control varroa > levels will not do us -- or anyone -- any good. Agreed, but we need to explain what we mean by 'control varroa levels' - are we talking about attempting total annihilation (the Apistan approach) or keep to a level where most colonies survive but are exposed to a moderate level of varroa and the associated viruses. I believe that there are two approaches to selection. The first - and most difficult for small-scale beekeepers with limited resources - is selection and breeding from the best. The second - and easily practised by everyone - is to cull the worst. Just imagine the progress that would be made if all beekeepers took the second route. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:33:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bob Harrison" wrote: > The simple answer to your post would be that when I control varroa I do not > have a virus problem. Only do I see a P.M.S. problem when varroa loads > approach threshold. Hello Bob But this still leaves you on the treadmill of constantly trying to kill varroa. My original post asked whether any work was being done to identify variation in susceptibility to viruses. When I was in southern India last January, they told me that Apis cerana had been devastated 10 years ago by Thai sac brood virus. However, populations have now recovered and TSB is no longer a serious problem. I wonder if we could achieve the same with APV and DWV; varroa would then not be the problem that it is today for so many. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:47:54 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Lavender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Something wrong there, surely? Eva Crane in 'Honey' gives lavender as a > group 4 plant - 101-200kg per hectare - and the > French produce tons of the stuff! I was at a lavender farm in Western Australia a few months back and I was amazed at the number of lavender varieties that were growing there. Would not it be the case that certain varieties of lavender may produce nectar in different quantities? If so, in this case you would need to determine which variety was being worked. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:56:38 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Small cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Langstroth hive has its place, but there is room for diversity. The > laws requiring moveable comb,, in particular, are archaic. With current > levels of beekeeper education, the current tools and knowledge we have, and > the many diverse uses we have for bees, other configurations make a lot of > sense. I'll bit. In the words of Julius Sumner Millar "Why is it so?" I cannot see why in our Australian situation we would want to go away from the moveable frame hive. We do have provision in some States for fixed fame honey supers but these must be above queen excluders. One State allows for bee tubes for one off pollination jobs but these are destroyed after pollination. We are flat our getting some beekeepers to go below excluders to look at brood. They do not have a clue on diseases and often, if they migrate, are the ones carrying diseases such as AFB and infect other unfortunate beekeepers who happen to be next to them. So why are moveable frame hives archaic? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:04:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Small cell size In-Reply-To: <000d01c48c67$d27639a0$0bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Yet, both camps are stuck on a single cell size and fail to see the importance of the broodnest structure. Sticking to a single size has negative consequences whether large or small sized foundations are used. It just doesn't match what the bee do when left to themselves." Why hasn't anyone tried to market any foundation closer to the differences found in a top bar hive. If the broodnest structure varies in cell size, why doesn't the foundation also vary. Doesn't seem like it would be hard to design a press or a mill to fabricate foundation with varying size and structure. Has anyone developed a foundation with varying sizes, with the smaller cells to the center and the larger to the outside? If you wanted to go all out, you could design every frame differently in the hive to perfectly mimic what is seen in nature. Josh Jaros --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:53:55 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: Small cell size In-Reply-To: <002101c48c67$6c55d0e0$2cb85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was to a seminar with Günter Hauk. His method is to put a small strip of foundation in the frame so the bees "get some direction," and draw out fresh comb. I have a few hives that in their second year seem to have packed pollen into cells that the queen is having to lay around. Since my foundation on organic wax is none too cheap, I am considering this. Will the bees draw this out in the fall when I load them up with HFCS? I was planning on doing a comparison between drawing comb on 2:1 vs. the HFCS, but figure it has been done before. I searched the archives, but did not find this information. I am going on Holiday for a week starting tomorrow. Wife suggested I stay home and work and come down later. As a workaholic, it is hard to resist...JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:27:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Dettori Subject: Re: Lavender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My math says you all are saying the same thing. > > if you put 7 strong hives on 5 acres > > irrigated lavender, don't expect more that a few pounds per hive. > > > Eva Crane in 'Honey' gives lavender as a group 4 plant - 101-200kg per hectare - :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:54:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The second - and easily practised by everyone - is to cull the worst. In my outfit, they cull themselves. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:59:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Small cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Josh & All, > Has anyone developed a foundation with varying sizes, with the smaller cells to the center and the larger to the outside? If you wanted to go all out, you could design every frame differently in the hive to perfectly mimic what is seen in nature. > Nature is chaotic and difficult duplicate, so no foundation will or could be made to mimic nature, in my opinion. If you have ever let bees make their own comb you would see bees make combs faster than when they have foundation to start. If you want combs that mimic nature let the bees build it from scratch. There are beekeepers who do this and have very good success keeping bees with no treatments. Sorry I had to respond. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:07:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Small cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & All, > FWIW, we tried some plastic 4.9 foundation that Dee kindly sent us. It > didn't work out too well, but that was our fault. > Dee also sent some to me to trial. Nothing I did made them draw it. I think it may have had something to do with the vanilla that was put on at the manufacturers that the bees did not like. Maybe I should have bathed the foundation first but I did not. From what I understand when it was first made they put vanilla on it to hide the smell of the fresh plastic, this turned out to be a mistake on their part and that was stopped before it was put on the market. It probably was not your fault that the bees would not draw it but the vanilla instead. Dee, please correct me if I am incorrect about the vanilla. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:18:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Small cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor & All, > So why are moveable frame hives archaic? > I'll bit too. Not as much archaic as against the nature of the bee. Archaic to me would be like ancient, but maybe someday movable frame hives will be ancient and most beekeepers will use skeps or other forms of hives where bees are allowed to build comb to their liking instead. Maybe then feral bees will make a comeback and bees in nature will be happy bees again. c]:~)> Natural comb is not at all straight and narrow like frames in Langs. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:39:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Small cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > One State allows for bee tubes for one off pollination jobs but these > are destroyed after pollination. I like the first part. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 05:51:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Small Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You don't actually need to use foundation at all, or very little of it. I have had a swarm hive itself in a brood box with frames but no foundation and they did a perfect job. I would have difficulty in distinguishing those combs from foundation - based. However I have also had a swarm go against the run of frames. On my top bar hive a bead of wax along the centre drawn with a soldering iron is sufficient. On conventional hives nowadays I use a starter strip of foundation and wire the frames with fishing line and it works fine. The Danes change all their brood comb every year as a health promotion measure. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:30:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato In-Reply-To: <004e01c48c86$7171b480$89ad87d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > But this still leaves you on the treadmill of constantly trying to kill > varroa. My original post asked whether any work was being done to identify > variation in susceptibility to viruses. An analogy here. Malaria exists and we have drugs to fight it, but the better solution is to eliminate to the extent possible, the carrier. Otherwise, you consign millions of people to the threat and possible contraction of the disease and allow the pest free reign, even though not all mosquitoes carry the disease. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:03:11 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato > But this still leaves you on the treadmill of constantly trying > to kill varroa. My original post asked whether any work was being > done to identify variation in susceptibility to viruses. A few points about viruses may need to be stressed in all this speculation. Viruses (for example, influenza, "the flu") are very difficult to fight due to their moving-target nature. New strains of human flu appear yearly, and they vary in virulence. Regardless, influenza kills millions every year. There is no single shot that can protect one from both last year's flu and this year's flu. Every year's influenza vaccine is an ad-hoc, custom-designed mix of multiple "killed" viruses that mimic the viral surface antigen(s) that mediate binding to the host cell. (This is a whole lot like matching crystalline structures.) With bees, vaccines are assumed to be impractical. It has been shown that viruses are spread between varroa through bee larvae when the varroa feed on the larvae. It has also been shown that there is a direct correlation between the number of adult varroa feeding on any one bee larvae and the odds of the bee getting a virus. The kicker is that if an infected varroa feeds on a bee larvae, all the other varroa feeding on that larvae get the virus, and one has a sudden upswing in the number of virus-carrying varroa just when varroa populations are high enough to assure multiple varroa entering each brood cell. If one can keep varroa populations "under control", one avoids the overwhelming outbreaks of viruses, as the viruses are not known to be spread by other means anywhere near as easily. So, to summarize, if we could deal with viruses easier than we could deal with pests, we would have done so for human viruses. If we could breed domestic animals that were somehow resistant to viruses, we would have breed poultry that were resistant long before now. We haven't because we can't. Calling the current approach a "treadmill" does nothing to advance understanding. Beekeepers are just now starting to get the message that one must monitor varroa populations, a message that the researchers and extension people have been pushing for years. So, in these troubled times, perhaps we all need reminding that when we all work together and really put our minds to something, we still can't achieve the impossible. :) My personal dilemma has to do with the "economic threshold" as applied to beekeeping - a) Assume I have a colony that presents a very low, but non-zero mite count in fall. b) If I decide not to treat that colony, I certainly will have a higher initial mite population next spring, which will give that colony's varroa a "head start" on colonies that are treated, and can be assumed to start in spring with a zero (or very near zero) varroa population. c) There is a very good chance that this untreated colony will have to be pulled out of production in summer to be treated due to the "head start" I gave the varroa by not treating in fall. d) There is also a good chance that this untreated colony will become the source of varroa spread to the treated colonies via drifting bees. To me, it seems that it is not a question of "if" one should treat a colony, but instead, a question of "when", except in the unique and rare case of no detectable varroa at all. Clearly, the worst-case economic impact for a honey producer would be to not only spend money on treatment, but also be forced to pull a colony out of production to do so. I have asked several card-carrying experts "...and what happens THEN?" when they get to the point in their presentation where they talk about making a decision about treating or not treating. I have yet to hear a coherent response that has any good news for next mid-summer's crop from this low-varroa-count colony. They can think ahead as far as next SPRING's crop, but if asked to think about the SECOND honey harvest of the season, they start to act like small mammals cornered by a lynx. jim (Political skill in the absence of statesmanship is the first act of a tragedy) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:43:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Kashmir Virus and Sour Gas On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:26:14 -0600, allen dick (that's me) wrote: >Near Calgary, there is a big stir about sour gas wells being drilled in the >region (with very stringent safety measures) ... Somehow a story >got into the Globe & Mail about bees being affected by sour gas wells. I listed the articles mentioned in my previous post, including the G&M article http://www.honeybeeworld.com/links/ for one-click access, since the original URLs are too long to easily present here. I notice that I made an error in one of the links to the Kasmir references I gave previously, and that is corrected on the page of links. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:33:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small cell size Hi Josh, >Why hasn't anyone tried to market any foundation closer to the differences >found in a top bar hive. I hope a suitable method can be found. Several tbh beekeepers had stated they would try and build a foundation mold from some natural comb and give it a test. I was one of them, but won't get it done this year. I did try to use three different sizes of foundation wired together on a single frame. You can see it at: http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/vari.htm The attempt was a failure. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:50:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small cell size Hi Keith and Everyone, >If you have ever let bees make their own comb you would see bees make combs >faster than when they have foundation to start. If you want combs that mimic >nature let the bees build it from scratch. That's been my experience and my conclusion as well. The combination of new wax and an uninterrupted broodnest structure with its variable sized cells in the right location are working great for me. I'm a hobbiest and find that a top bar hive meets my needs. But I also know that commercial beekeeping needs are quite different. The ultimate combination would be a Pierco type frame with a variable, tapered cell size. Such a combination might allow for the health advantages of small cell with the ruggedness,utility and compatibility required by the big bee guys. These frames could also be scraped to obtain new, clean wax without the expense of wiring in new foundation. My experience with the currently availble small cell plastic foundation hasn't been good. It suffers the same fate as small cell beeswax foundation. And the bees don't like it's texture or cell wall design. I have pitched mine out. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:55:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small cell size Hi Guys, I was part of the initial test of the vanilla stuff. And I later purchased the unscented version from Dadant. The acceptance was the same with both kinds. I coated them with beeswax with the same results. I would suggest that anyone trying out small cell beekeeping stick with the beeswax and avoid the small cell plastic foundation. You will have all the fun you want culling the improperly drawnout beeswax based comb :>) Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:57:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Simple event turned into killer bee story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More on the gullible and inventive press... http://honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=876&nID=433 allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:31:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato In-Reply-To: <01b201c48d10$22c3b1a0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > To me, it seems that it is not a question of "if" one should > treat a colony, but instead, a question of "when", except in > the unique and rare case of no detectable varroa at all. > Clearly, the worst-case economic impact for a honey producer > would be to not only spend money on treatment, but also be > forced to pull a colony out of production to do so. I hope I understand the question, so if I am far afield, please correct me. "Economic threshold" is covered fairly well at http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/ipm444/test/NotesThreshold.htm It is interesting that the term seems to be interpreted differently and is not consistent. I did some searching and that was the article that seemed to draw together the complexity of the issue of "economic threshold". Most IPM applications I have seen are to not just treat the affected field but to trigger application of pesticide to the entire crop. That makes the system economical, since labor is generally the larger cost in most enterprises. So if you hit whatever threshold, it makes sense to apply the treatment uniformly and not discretely to each section of a field, even though the rest of the field may not be as infected with pests. Generally, IPM uses limited samples to trigger response to a pest. It can give skewed results, since the sample may not be uniform, so it makes sense to treat all the crop. You do not want to come back over and over again just to treat each affected area in turn. Same with bees. In a large operation it would seem to make more sense with limited sampling to treat all the colonies rather than discrete colonies, unless you can show that there is no Varroa in a colony, which is difficult. One of the few things I learned from a statistics class was when one fluorescent bulb went out in a factory (at about its normal life), it was more cost efficient to replace them all than just the one, since the others would be going out also. That way, you would do the same thing the next time and actually be more cost efficient than a piecemeal approach. Again, labor is the driving factor, not the cost of the bulb. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:45:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bill Truesdell" wrote: > Malaria exists and we have drugs to fight it, but the > better solution is to eliminate to the extent possible, the carrier. How many beneficial insects have been killed and how much pollution has been caused in the attempted elimination of mosquitoes? Have they been eliminated? Do we now have mosquitoes that are resistant to some insecticides? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:52:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Lavender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Mark Dettori" wrote: > My math says you all are saying the same thing. Not sure how you work that out. 5 acres should give, roughly, between 500 and 1000lbs of honey. 500/7 = 71 1000/7 = 143 Of course, we do not have data on the optimum stocking rate, but that seems more than a few pounds of honey to me - but perhaps you are used to larger crops than I am. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 21:47:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Dettori Subject: Re: Lavender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1 hectare = 100 acres 1/20 hectare = 5 acres 1/20 * 101 kg to 200 kg = 5 kg to 10 kg = 10 lb to 20 lb 10 lb to 20 lb / 7 hives = around 3 lbs per hive > Not sure how you work that out. 5 acres should give, roughly, between 500 > and 1000lbs of honey. > 500/7 = 71 > 1000/7 = 143 > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 21:58:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: But this still leaves you on the treadmill of constantly trying to kill varroa. Unless you have got bees which can maintain a varroa load you ARE always trying to kill varroa! In a breeding program in order to find varroa tolerant hives the best way is to apply varroa pressure. Sadly only a couple of private beekeepers doing research do so. In fact the Russian bees were treated upon entrance into the U.S. and early on in research I have been told in talks on Russian bees I have attended. Apistan strips and crisco patties were found in a certain bee labs survivor project by beekeepers which found the location of the projects hives and went looking. Shame on you beekeepers but thanks for the info! We have bought queens from the bee mags which advertise bees which can handle varroa and done varroa pressure testing. Sould we publish the results in a bee mag? Would not gain friends in queen rearing circles so will keep quiet. Peter said: When I was in southern India last January, they told me that Apis cerana had been devastated 10 years ago by Thai sac brood virus. However, populations have now recovered and TSB is no longer a serious problem. I wonder if we could achieve the same with APV and DWV; varroa would then not be the problem that it is today for so many. What did the beekeepers in India do to control the alleged outbreak of TBS besides let the virus run its course. Only ten years to get control. perhaps a change in vocation would be in order. sent to me on the subject: The beekeeper grapevine tells me varroa kicked butt for ten years in India until they finally got a handle on varroa and the viruses went away. Many beekeepers went to India to show beekeepers ways to control varroa I am being told. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::