From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:49:06 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.0 required=2.4 tests=AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4184848F92 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKld012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0409D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 70553 Lines: 1583 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 06:58:32 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Yet Another New Sweetener To Be Imported To Compete With Honey If you thought ultra-filtered sweeteners with an appearance disturbingly similar to honey were a problem, be advised that there is a much larger supply of Glycoaldehyde out there. While the distance might seem a problem, one need look no further than the round-the-world travels of some honey with trace levels of nitrofurans (Argentina to Austrailia to USA to Canada) to realize that honey importers don't pay attention to shipping costs. http://www.astrobio.net/news/article1205.html jim (Dmitry Sklyarov proved that we have turned into a country where certain equations are actually illegal.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:40:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Yet Another New Sweetener To Be Imported To Compete With Honey In-Reply-To: <025701c4a093$19ee49a0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > If you thought ultra-filtered sweeteners with an appearance > disturbingly similar to honey were a problem, be advised that > there is a much larger supply of Glycoaldehyde out there. A new nectar source for our bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:18:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Yet Another New Sweetener To Be Imported To Compete With Honey In-Reply-To: <415172C3.4030001@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok Jim, So where IS the Honeymoon !! Killing several birds with one message - Thanks to Peter Keating and Jim Fischer for the advice on how to get an accurate calibration for my refractometer. Quick visit to a lab. in Winnipeg proved that there was no need for a correction to be performed as the instrument was spot on. Now, Canola honey extraction in my part of Manitoba has been to say the least, difficult. Many frames are containing granulated honey, well granulated whilst a good 30%+ in the centre is still runny honey. This being due to weather conditions, bloom prolongation. Canola fields in some areas finishing whilst others just dragged on and on, giving a constant trickle of nectar. Blooms have just finished. Early extraction was ok - but the last 5 apiaries are a trial.(100 hives) What are the thoughts on giving back over the brood chamber the semi extracted frames for the bees to clear - supplying a partial winter feed? The frames have been uncapped, therefore exposing the granulated cell contents. The supplying of a honey that has concrete characteristics for winter feed (be it only a proportion) is out of my experience. Notes taken on mails relating to Aster and other fall honeys "ring loud". In this area, with its rude winter climate - is it possible to keep the uncapped frames and use the honey as a spring feed. Fermentation is not going to be a problem until next May at the earliest. Dribbling maybe! Cowan wax spinner - yes, trying to get clean wax from this machine defies all! That is unless honey is at 50 degrees centigrade and/ or 25% plus water content. The Canola honey is just held back in the spinning container, with wax plugging up the small holes. Limiting the amount of material that is spun still results in a creamy mixture sliding off the outlet area into the collecting barrel. Contacting Cowan gave a response that one should maybe add more water! I need to collect the honey to barrel and not start up a mead manufacturing operation. Some honey passes through and out of the correct orifice, but a fair few kilos remain in the machine - only to gently consolidate itself into a block of lard by morning. To remove this appears to require the total dismantling of the spinner! Was this item meant to be only used in tropical climates? Maybe I am missing something, but I cannot see how it can be used in areas producing thick canola honey. Any comments most welcome - especially ones that show up my limited abilities in dealing with this Canadian speciality. Ta, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:44:06 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: Bare foundation. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Listers, Does anyone know what causes areas of bare foundation in brood combs, both wax and Pierco? I have a couple of hives that have chewed cell walls down to the foundation in areas as large as a hand-span in several combs where the surroundings are packed with brood. The surface of the chewed area almost looks slightly powdery, but scraping and/or brushing doesn't result in cell building. The areas have been bare for several years, and the bees just don't seem to want to have anything to do with these `deserts'. Can anything be done to get the bees to rebuild the cells? Thanks very much. Regards to all. Barry Donovan, New Zealand. Visit our website at http://www.crop.cri.nz ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:47:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Extracing Canola honey. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter: Canola honey is difficult to filter because the small growing crystals plug up the holes in the filter. You get a sort of gel with honey, crystals and wax chips. I imagine that this is the case with the spinner as well. It is essential to extract Canola as soon as the frames show significant capping. This results in high moisture honey. Our co-op has the ability to deal with this but if you are selling privately, you will have to arrange some sort of drying process. I would feed sugar syrup in the fall and use the granulated frames in the spring. Best regards Donald Aitken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Dillon" --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:58:03 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Subject: Re: Bare foundation. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a couple of hives that have chewed cell > walls down to the foundation in areas as large as a hand-span in several > combs where the surroundings are packed with brood. I have sometimes noticed this phenomenon in hives when they are capping brood or honey. Wax is stolen from the foundation to cap the other cells. I have no idea why the bees do this. I have also noticed that those areas are never drawn again. Once the embossing of the foundation is chewed away, the bees seem to build elsewhere instead. Yesterday I was looking at a hive that had drawn a supa and started filling it, but had cleared the foundation on the two outer frames in the brood box. Not many solutions, but you are not alone. regards Paul Collett :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:38:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Extracing Canola honey. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is essential to extract Canola as soon as the frames show > significant capping. We extracted without waiting for any capping at all, and found that our moisture was usually quite low in warm, dry periods. However, in damp spells, we found that moisture in extracted honey was high, regardless of capping. Capped honey is, however always drier than new nectar, and for that reason, we are careful when pulling honey toward evening on a good flow day. Since up to 30 lbs of nectar can come in in one day and will be very thin, it needs to sit in the hive overnight to dry, at minimum. > This results in high moisture honey. Our co-op > has the ability to deal with this but if you are selling privately, > you will have to arrange some sort of drying process. Most packers can use high moisture honey for blending if they are told that it is high moisture. Since most honey they receive is far drier than the 18.6% they target for #1 White, they can certainly use some thinner honey (instead of a bucket of water) to adjust the moisture. Some may try to take advantage of worried beekeepers by discounting by more than the percentage difference in solids between high moisture and thin honey, but honest buyers will generally be happy to pay a fair price and help you out. The biggest concern is making sure the thin honey is packed before it starts to ferment, but usually you have several months minimum before it becomes a problem. That interval will depend on the temperature of storage, the moisture reading, and the cleanliness of the honey. Also, some beekeepers -- including many that are not aware of the fact -- run their extracting/settling system hot enough that the honey is effectively pasteurized, and that honey will not ferment for a long while, if packed in clean drums. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 05:41:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Canola honey in Cowen spinner In-Reply-To: <200409230401.i8N1rQAX018770@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Was this item meant to be only used in tropical climates? Maybe I am missing something, but I cannot see how it can be used in areas producing thick canola honey. THe only thought I would have would to be to heat up the entire honey house where the spinner is located to the point where the canola honey reliquifies. Otherwise, as previously mentioned, spring feed, hoping that you have no AFB spores in the honey. Mike --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:28:00 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: For the Bleeding-Edge Beekeeper Here are 6 Gmail accounts for beekeepers who might want one. First come, first served. (I'm tried of trying to think of who might want one, and sending them one by one to individuals.) Don't know what Gmail is or why you might want an account? Then you likely don't need to know, and don't need a Gmail account. http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-63b4eff13a-d4c81845f2-8ae569ee42 http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-63b4eff13a-3b5621838c-5e265ed5eb http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-63b4eff13a-679984f6df-bbbb1304c9 http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-63b4eff13a-25d90a93ee-4b8c191dce http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-63b4eff13a-7220f0d8f8-3c0f4fd373 http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-63b4eff13a-4c94fa9e72-b124d8d98b Details about Gmail are here http://gmail.google.com/gmail/help/benefits.html If you get a web page saying "this account has been issued", then someone else beat you to it. Try one of the other links. jim ("Digital Rights Management" is as if your record player suddenly becomes the sole property of whomever's records you are currently playing.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:12:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Yet Another New Sweetener To Be Imported To Compete With Honey >>Maybe I am missing something, but I cannot see how it can be used in areas producing thick canola honey. Hey Peter You are working in an exceptional year here in central Manitoba. This year has been difficult right from the get go. I too have been having great difficulty in extracting my last pull of honey due to the abundance of canola flower so late in the season. Granulation has been a problem in most of my frames. I too have the same problem with at least 1/3 of the frames granulated. What to do with them? Canola honey granulates very quickly when the temperature drops below 10degrees C. It supprised me for my supers had only been out for three weeks at the most. I have never produced so much extra white and white honey as this season. Only two barrels of buckwheat honey, rest graded white or higher. Good for a marketing stand point, hope the price recovers a bit.,, I ended up with 154 lbs/hive. Never thought I would reach the 150lbs mark a month a go. Bees are going into winter heavey and stronge. I hope the winter is mild and next year is more towards the normal. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:29:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Re: For the Bleeding-Edge Beekeeper In-Reply-To: <035e01c4a1b4$33ad5800$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here are 3 more Gmail account invitations for people who may have missed the opportunity from Jim http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-b827cbf665-c4bb6d8f24-44ac136d11 http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-b827cbf665-bc5329c7f0-1a3fe074d7 http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-b827cbf665-fc39dcc4bc-6fba5ec42f Details about Gmail are here http://gmail.google.com/gmail/help/benefits.html If you get a web page saying "this account has been issued", then someone else beat you to it again. Try one of the other links. Tom Patterson Aurora, CO :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:13:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Yet Another New Sweetener To Be Imported To Compete With Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Many frames are containing granulated honey, well granulated whilst a > good 30%+ in the centre is still runny honey. I guess I should mention that the best solution we found for this problem is to uncap the granulated frames as deeply as possible. That way, as much honey as possible can be recovered in the cappings. If a good cappings system is available, then the honey can be sold. Trying to use the honey for feed is a loss of income, since honey is worth at least 4 -- and liley much more -- times the price of feed. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 20:31:23 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Yet Another New Sweetener To Be Imported To Compete With Honey If you get this highly thixotropic honey often, the best tool to use may be a bed-of-nails fixture such as those used for heather honey. Here are some really good photos of one "in action": http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/biodling/ljung/ling-2.htm I don't claim to know anything about these things, other than knowing the word "thixotropic", which is a perfect game-ending, shouting-match starting, OED volume throwing, nuclear weapon in Scrabble. (We play Scrabble for serious money around these parts, and "X" is worth 8 points...) Offhand, I'd guess that no on has one lying around up there, and that the order leadtime would make it a fine Christmas present. Well, there's always next year... For the comb at hand, what about simply warming the combs one extractor load at a time by pointing two or three of the very bright (and very hot) quartz worklamps that are sold at the hardware store into the extractor until you raise the honey temperature to somewhere around 110F, and then running the RPMs well beyond any prior definition of "prudent"? That said, the honey is not worth anything close to what the drawn comb is worth in my accounting, so I'd give up if I blew apart the first test batch of combs. The astute (or perhaps very foolish) beekeeper might remove the diac/triac electronic speed control, and replace it with a bulky old rheostat of the proper amperage/voltage to insure that he is truly pushing his motor at maximum rpms, but I do NOT suggest wiring directly from the 110 or 220 plug to the motor, as the sudden starting torque when you flip the breaker on might pull the extractor leg bolts right out of floor, and launch it on a trajectory that would require recovery operations to be attempted by the International Space Station. ...and while we are on the subject of unique aspects of Canadian honey, what gives with this "wax white" honey from Canada, anyway? It looks more like a candle in a honey jar than a jar of honey, as the color is just "too white" to resemble honey. Problem is, no wick... :) It apparently crystallizes on the truck between packer and store, as I have never seen a single bottle not crystallized, but it has such fine crystals, it looks at first glance to have been "creamed". But it cannot be "creamed honey", as the label has instructions for re-liquefying the jar. Just what IS the nectar source? jim (Who who cheerfully wanders into immensely dangerous situations and effortlessly makes them much worse) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 05:17:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: granulated honey in supers In-Reply-To: <200409260402.i8Q3itUj005644@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Speculation: At what temperature does most of this honey reliquify? 120 - 130 degrees? What happens to the honey comb in this temperature range? Can we heat up the entire super to reliquify the honey in the comb, then bring it out into the honey house for uncapping and extracting? Mike --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:27:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Honey with 99.9% albedo properties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim et al, The super white honey that you comment upon is I suggest something to do with the thousands of hectares of little yellow flowers. These were present in our and several other areas during the months of July, August and September. Not having the capacity to actually pinpoint via. pollen count etc., this presumable "canola honey" amazes me. Its taste varies - from a bland super sweet liquid, through to examples of very pleasing (IMHO) finished honey. Common to many honeys, the material that leaves the beekeeper has very different taste characteristics compared to the material that is sent out onto the market. Changing the subject: As ever more stringent hygiene requirements come into force for honey producers - what are the thoughts of regarding the suitability of present day extracting equipment and how it fits into ease of keeping clean during the honey extraction process? Material I am using is reasonably well built, but has many rough corners, open rivets, areas which are practically impossible to clean without pressure washing. This done, removal of trapped water under plastic strips, turned steel edges etc. is impossible. Daily wash down is not easy! - esp. where vulnerable electrical components are strategically placed. Peter. PS: Summer has arrived for the next several days!!!!!!!!!!! I could go on with many more examples, but would rather read other peoples comments first! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 16:53:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: suitability of extracting equipment today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: As ever more stringent hygiene requirements come into force for honey producers - what are the thoughts of regarding the suitability of present day extracting equipment and how it fits into ease of keeping clean during the honey extraction process? Although health departments are concerned with the items you said. The top problems still remain filth, insect & rodent problems, buildings not sealed from outside and not washing hands. Once cleaned and sterlized with clorox and water before the extracting starts ( all areas need treated) little actual health problems come from most present and past honey extraction equipment in use today acording to the health inspectors I have talked with. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 16:37:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dieter Schuerer Subject: Small cells and small beehive beatle European papers on the small hive beatle (which has fortunately not arrived in Europe yet) say that one means of fighting agains the beatle is to have a high population of bees on the combs. As far as I see, the density of bees on small cells is higher than on normal combs. Has anyone in the states where the SHB is a problem gained experience on this topic? Could the small cells with smaller bees be a good weapon agains the beatle? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:41:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dieter said: As far as I see, the density of bees on small cells is higher than on normal combs. Bee population in a hive is regulated by many factors. small cell does not mean a larger hive population even if there are more cells for the queen to lay. Most hives stay at a certain level of population. Commercial beekeepers do things to increase hive population. Dieter asks: Has anyone in the states where the SHB is a problem gained experience on this topic? SHB preys on weak hives. A queen breeder recently lost around 600 nucs to the SHB. Dieter asks: Could the small cells with smaller bees be a good weapon agains the beatle? A strong hive is the key. Not a smaller size bee. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:56:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: granulated honey in supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Mike Stoops" speculated: >At what temperature does most of this honey reliquify? 120 - 130 degrees? What happens >to the honey comb in this temperature range? Can we heat up the entire super to reliquify >the honey in the comb, then bring it out into the honey house for uncapping and extracting? I have to say that I have been surprised by this thread. We have to deal with rape honey that has granulated in the comb on a regular basis and I had considered asking the group how they coped - expecting the our Canadian friends would certainly have some good answers to the problem, given the amount grown there. The situation here in the UK has become worse over the years because modern varieties of rape seem to flower earlier than previously and milder winters are also bringing forward the flowering time. When I started beekeeping in 1981 we expected rape to start flowering around the end of the first week in May - now there may be significant flower in February and fields completely yellow in late March. With the crop flowering so much earlier, it only needs one cold night for the bees to go back to a winter cluster and leave the supers unattended. The honey goes cold and starts to granulate - this will then seed whatever is gathered later so this granulates as well. Earlier flowering also produces an extended flowering period due to less reliable weather - again leading to granulation. As far as I know, it is impossible to reliquefy the honey in the comb. Buckets of rape honey take 1-2 days at 120F, depending on their temperature when placed in the warming cabinet. Combs collapse long before the honey liquefies. I can suggest three methods to deal with the problem: 1 Avoid it by extracting earlier - OK on a small scale, but almost impossible for anyone with more than a few hives (remember that this is also heading into the swarming season and there is a great deal of apiary work to do). 2 Scrape combs back to the midrib - the hook of a hive tool (stainless - not painted) works well. 3 Chop out the entire comb. For 2 & 3 the wax and granulated honey is heated to melt out the honey. This can be done with a heated uncapping tank or tray, in buckets in a warming cabinet, or using a purpose made heated tank such as that sold by Swienty. Some commercial beekeepers in the UK allow all the rape crop to granulate in the comb and then deal with it later (perhaps during the following winter), using starter strips of unwired foundation to make it easier to cut out the comb. Leaving a small strip at the top of the frame will then provide a starter for next time. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:56:03 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Yet Another New Sweetener To Be Imported To Compete With Honey In-Reply-To: <200409270402.i8R3wj3q004006@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Should change subject to crystallized honey, but then we loose the thread so... Up here on lat 60 we are used to this stuff. Seems we got more than our fair share. When canola is grown regularly, both autumn and spring sown, most yards have access to it some time during summer. The pollen is very attractive to bees and they fly far to get it. > > If you get this highly thixotropic honey often, the > best tool to use may be a bed-of-nails fixture such > as those used for heather honey. > No Jim, that is a totally different story. Equally tricky to get out of the comb, but don't mix up thixotropic with crystallized honey. You can get the ling heather out, but no way you can melt crystals without damaging the comb. At least in a commercial operation with some demand for efficiency. I can only see two options for Peter. One is to cut out and melt the whole combs, but then there is the need for a melter with a large bottom surface, thermostat heating etc. The other is to put the boxes under the brood nest in spring and let the bees do the job. Usually the way to go, bees use the honey for spring build up and get a jump start --> better crop later --> and you get some of it back. Regarding the Cowan spinner: I got one of those too once upon the time. Took me a season to realize it isn't the best thing for the job. When using a wax spinner, one has to empty it regularly during the day to avoid honey building up in the wax block that is created. The way to go is to have a small sump under the uncapper that holds around 50 liters of wax/honey. That is pumped to the spinner, and the spinner is run until the sump under the uncapper is filled again with wax/honey. Spinner is stopped, clean wax is scraped off the perforated walls of the drum, and the cycle is repeated. This way the spun out wax will hold very little honey, some of the crystals will even go with the honey instead of building up in the wax. Scraping the wax out takes only a minute or two, you loose less honey, and don't have all the work to get that big hard cake of wax out of the spinner at the end of day. A far better way of using a spinner, thinks me who tried both ways.... http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/biodling/exline-nf.htm there is a picture of the home made spinner I used earlier. For the smaller operator there is another way of separating honey and wax. It works for extracting up to 1000 kg a day. A stainless sump with bottom heating (heater+thermostat in water, double bottom) approx. 1000 x 500 mm bottom surface is used. Outlet in one of the short sides. Bottom sloping towards the outlet with 50-100 mm. Use under the uncapper, or uncap manually with knife into it. Temp is kept below wax melting during the day, most honey is liquefied and run out without getting warm for long time. End of day the temp is turned up near water boil, wax and remaining honey is melted and run out during the night. If there is cocoons or pollen in the wax, a perforated sheet of stainless should stop it from entering the outlet pipe. Bend it in a half circle in front of the outlet to get big enough surface to avoid clogging. A lot of people use this system here, it's simple, safe, and relatively cheap to make. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:35:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed my experience with the small hive beetle SHB, having lost a hive or two, indicates too that the more bees ie stronger hive is the best weapon. the other prongs of the beetle life cycle need attention. killing the pupae in the ground can only help too what is the overall experience with the new SHB trap - a screened bottom board with tray of oil below. the beetles and the larvae fall through the screen into the oil and done. david :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:12:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Yet Another New Sweetene/thixotropic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim & all Heather honey in UK is much sought after and commands a high price... Now here is one for experiment, (I thought about this years ago but never got around to testing it). What about vibration to liquefy the thixotropic gel type honeys? I reckon this is worthy of some experimentation, I have no idea of what frequency range we should be looking at, but I reckon I would try 50 Hz or 60 Hz first, because of the ease of utilising domestic power frequencies. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:13:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > small cell does not > mean a larger hive population even if there are more cells for the queen to > lay. > Most hives stay at a certain level of population. > So a cluster of a given size or weight will have the same number of individuals no matter whether the bees were born on large cell or small cell? > Commercial beekeepers do > things to increase hive population. > What? > A strong hive is the key. Not a smaller size bee. > I have no experience with SHB, but I have heard that a strong colony is the key. I do use small cells and a cluster of a given size of small cells, from what I understand, will produce more bees per square inch than bees on larger cells. With more numbers I would think there would be a greater division of labor, enabling more duties to be accomplished. More division of labor, more gets done in the hive by the colony. Bob, What is your hands on experience with small cell beekeeping? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:38:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" First off, it's small hive beetle. This Saturday is the 35th anniversary of the release of Abbey Road, arguably the best albumn ever released by any group, not just the Beatles. Anyway, someone wrote: > ... a cluster of a given size > of small cells, from what I understand, will produce more > bees per square inch than bees on larger cells. This is apples and oranges. It is true that a smaller cell size will produce more cells per square inch, that is a given. The speculation here is that because there are more cells per square inch it follows that there will be more bees in a hive of small cell comb than there will be in a hive of larger cell size. This is not necessarily so. I believe Bob's point (at least that's how I read it) was that simply because there are more cells available to a queen to lay in, it does not necessarily follow that the queen will automatically use all of the cells at her disposal to lay more eggs. The limiting factor is not the number of cells available, the limiting factor is the queen. Before this becomes another cell size donnybrook, think about what is being said. Bob stated that the limiting factor in keeping SHB at bay is hive population. This is not (or was not) another round of small cell vs. large cell, it started on a speculation that small cell hives will have an advantage because there will be more bees raised in a small-celled colony because there are more cells available for the queen to utilize. Bob correctly points out that more cells doesn't necessarily mean more bees. That's all. There's no need for the samll cell proponents to get their hackles up here. As are many things in keeping bees, a major deciding factor is the queen. Aaron Morris - thinking before I leap! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:26:55 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Small cells and SHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob said: >>Bee population in a hive is regulated by many factors. small cell does = not mean a larger hive population even if there are more cells for the = queen to lay.<< I have to give my view on this particular point. A comparison of 5,5 = with 4,9 cell size gives a an increase of around 25% in the number of = cells in any given area. This obviously means that early in spring the = small cell colonies are at an advantage as 25% more bees can be = warmed/raised by the cluster of ''winter bees'' AND also means that = there is the potential for 25% more bees per generation if conditions = (food supply and queen fecundity) permit it. It also means that the = small cell hive is able to change from a ''winter bee'' population to a = ''spring bee'' population more easily and pass through this critical = period more comfortably. Our and others experiences with small cell = have shown quite clearly that there is a real explosion of bee = population in the spring in comparison to large cell colonies. This = actually maybe one of the ways that the small cell hives manage to stay = ahead of damaging Varroa populations - though there are many other = factors as well that affect this relationship. I would have thought = that more bees per hive would be a good defence against Aethina tumida. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:07:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Small cells and SHB In-Reply-To: <002301c4a4bf$9206e250$1d8a9ac2@haris8cjgnhodj> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:26 PM 9/27/2004, you wrote: > Our and others experiences with small cell have shown quite clearly that > there is a real explosion of bee population in the spring in comparison > to large cell colonies. Is the brood cycle for small cell bees any different than normal? If it were shorter I would expect it to help against varroa as well. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:41:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: cell size & hive population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger said: I have to give my view on this particular point. A comparison of 5,5 with 4,9 cell size gives a an increase of around 25% in the number of cells in any given area. In the U.S. I use 5.1mm foundation which I consider the correct size. I know of no 5.5 mm even offered for sale. The queen is the key plus management. Cell size is a moog point in my opinion. I use the "open brood nest" system of management as outlined in the book "honey getting" by Lloyd Seachrist ( 1946). The queen always has cells to lay in. Under my system a couple mm make no difference. With *proper management* the queen will never be able to fill 20 9 5/8 deep frames with brood. When I kept bees in Florida the queen only wanted to maintain about four frames of brood ( periods between honey flows) unless being pushed through feeding etc. We had to use many methods to entice queens to lay maximum egg production. Through experience I have learned queens once shut down for winter will not start back up until the days start getting longer. In california we tried without success to build a fire under queens . Fresh pollen helps but the bees know the time to get serious about brooding up is when the days start getting longer. Years ago I did research on the amount of eggs laid by a queen in a 24 hour period and was amazed at the difference between queens (both of the same race and of different races) . I was also amazed at the number of times all queens in a yard shut down for a week or a couple days. I chuckle at the general rules of 1500 to 3000 eggs laid by queens per day. I wonder at times if those people ever checked queens for egg laying. Queens lay only the amount of eggs (normally) that the workers can care for which is the controlling factor. The egg laying raises as bees to cover and nurse are raised ( assuming plenty of stores are available). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:11:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: So a cluster of a given size or weight will have the same number of individuals no matter whether the bees were born on large cell or small cell? I imagine there would be a greater amount of bees in a 3 lb. by weight package of small cell bees. Research by Dr. Jaycox found a bee could be downsized by up to 17% (and also enlarged by up to 17%) from the widely accepted normal size for a honey bee. > Commercial beekeepers do > things to increase hive population. What? many things such as combine hives, add brood, use two queens , feed both pollen & honey etc. In China they requeen a hive going into a certain floral source with a queen/race which does the best job of honey getting (told on China beekeeping tour). > A strong hive is the key. Not a smaller size bee. > Keith said: . I do use small cells and a cluster of a given size of small cells, from what I understand, will produce more bees per square inch than bees on larger cells. Aaron explained my position very clearly. Thanks Aaron as we are on the same page! Bob, What is your hands on experience with small cell beekeeping? Very small scale. I was the first ( I believe) to name comb which is between the size used normally and 4.9mm as *transition comb*. When the Lusby's first came on the scene pushing the small cell size (was not 4.9mm at first) and discussion was taking place I saw the 4.9ers needed a word to explain the change. I looked up many words in the dictionary but settled on *transition* which is now commonly used on small cell web sites. " transition: "1. the act or state of passing from one place , condition, or action to another: change." I have yet to see the results worth the labor/cost with small cell but keep an open mind. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:09:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Granulated Honey in Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People seem to have this fixation with extractors which blinds them to other, more practical, methods of getting the honey from the hive to the customer. With smaller areas of set honey found when extracting I simply scrape the comb down to the mid rib and chuck it in with the cappings to be dealt with later. When several combs or a whole super of set are encountered, then they merit a bucket of their own, to be dealt with later. In Peter's situation with thousands of acres of oilseed rape (Canola to him) where masses of spoon bending honey are a certainty I wouldn't bother with foundation or even frames, but merely use laths in castellated spacers with a bead of wax starter drawn at appropriate intervals. The comb can then be sliced off the laths and dealt with later. Dealing with later means separating the honey from the wax. Put simply, this means bashing it about to disrupt the cell structure, then putting it GENTLY to warm. Blood heat should be enough. Peter is a scientist and will have the figures available. The wax will float above the honey which can be run off through a tap at the bottom of the container. GENTLE heating shouldn't damage the honey unduly unless prolonged. Inevitably the wax will retain a goodly amount of honey. This can be recovered by wrapping the wax/honey in muslin and putting it in your fruit press. Knowleable customers may ask you to put pressed honey aside for them. It is sought after. There may yet be a smidgeon of honey left in the cakes of wax. Turn it into mead. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:20:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Will Crow Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the queen is most certainly not the limiting factor. It's the size of the cluster of bees in spring. Thus the argument, cluster size being equal. More cells are covered. Resulting in more bees produced in a given area. It's a matter of logic not cell size?? Will :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:23:53 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Cell sizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob said: >>In the U.S. I use 5.1mm foundation which I consider the correct size. = I know of no 5.5 mm even offered for sale.<< That may be so - but in Europe 5,4 and 5,5 are quite normal and even = 5,7. The range of size that our bees will accept is probably 4,8-5,7. = When left to themselves they will build cells within this range, even = the so called ''downsized'' bees that were born on 4,9. Have a look at = Dave Cushman's website for a good overview of the different sizes = available around the world. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:43:16 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anthony Morgan Subject: Re: Yet Another New Sweetene/thixotropic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman wrote: > Heather honey in UK is much sought after and commands a high > price... We produce more heather (lyng) honey in my area than any other type. Despite the extra work involved the price level is the same as for any other honey. > Now here is one for experiment, (I thought about this years ago > but never got around to testing it). What about vibration to > liquefy the thixotropic gel type honeys? > > I reckon this is worthy of some experimentation, I have no idea > of what frequency range we should be looking at, but I reckon I > would try 50 Hz or 60 Hz first, because of the ease of utilising > domestic power frequencies. I have thought about this many times but never got a roundtuit... What about ultrasonic vibration? I use a simple motorised honey loosener (bed of nails type) but would love to be able to forgo the extra work and time this involves. cheers, Tony ------------------------------------------- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ------------------------------------------- Lat 63 deg 26 N. Long 10 deg 45 E Alt. 55m Apis mellifera carnica ------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:54:15 +0100 Reply-To: Phil Moore Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: cell size & hive population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . I use the "open brood nest" system of management as outlined in the > book "honey getting" by Lloyd Seachrist ( 1946). > > Bob Would it be possible to give some more detail of this method? Regards Phil Moore :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:26:51 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M & T Weatherhead Subject: Re: cell size & hive population In-Reply-To: <005301c4a4da$bb35af60$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote > Years ago I did research on the amount of eggs laid by a queen in a 24 hour period and was amazed at the difference between > queens (both of the same race and of different races) . I was also amazed at the number of times all queens in a yard shut down > for a week or a couple days. What were your figures for the amount of eggs laid in a 24 hour period? Thanks. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.770 / Virus Database: 517 - Release Date: 27/09/04 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I imagine there would be a greater amount of bees in a 3 lb. by weight > package of small cell bees. Research by Dr. Jaycox found a bee could > be downsized by up to 17% (and also enlarged by up to 17%) from the > widely accepted normal size for a honey bee. When I was visiting Lusbys, seems to me that Dee showed me some Egyptian research that demonstrated that bees raised in smaller cells have greater density -- to a significant degree -- than the same strain raised in larger cells. Don't recall how much. > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the queen is most certainly not the > limiting factor. It's the size of the cluster of bees in spring. Thus the > argument, cluster size being equal. More cells are covered. Resulting in > more bees produced in a given area. It's a matter of logic not cell size?? Although logic is appealing, a little logic turns out to be inadequate in this case. Available nutrition, queen capabilities and propensities, and other factors enter in. Besides, apparently, there is a limit to how many larvae an individual nurse bee can feed well. The matter is complex, and although logic is useful and fun, only observation under a variety of conditions will ultimately tell the real truth. If cluster heat is the only factor limiting greater brood rearing, then the logical conclusion will be correct, but if the other factors, or one of them, are the limit, then there will be no effect from bees covering more cells. FWIW, we did find significantly faster buildup using package bees on new Pierco plastic frames (5.25 mm) than on other brands of plastic foundation (5.35mm). allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:35:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle In-Reply-To: <007601c4a4f9$4e80c390$f2ebfea9@HOME> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will Crow wrote: > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the queen is most certainly not the > limiting factor. It's the size of the cluster of bees in spring. And race, and winter conditions, and health, and colony size going in, and type of hive (open bottom, styro, etc.), management techniques, and wrapping/no wrap, and moisture control, and hive location (valley, slope, sun), and frame spacing, and frame configuration (holes, top bar...) ...and there are obviously more than that to consider. If you have 40,000 bees going in to the winter, all those factors come into play and it does not matter what the cell size is. In the spring, all things being equal, it will be the queen that limits the size of the colony. If there are 3,000 empty cells and she will lay 3,000 eggs, then you will get 3,000 bees no matter what the cell size. (It would be interesting to see, from a mathematical point of view, just how much difference there is with smaller bees covering small cells compared to larger bees covering larger cells and cluster size.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:15:17 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the queen is most certainly not the > limiting factor. It's the size of the cluster of bees in spring. Cluster size differs between breeds, and can be very misleading. If you ever have the pleasure of getting some of Sue Cobey's NWC queens from an NWC producer, you will find these REALLY SCARY small clusters in fall. So small that you will be certain that you are about to lose every single hive simply due to a lack of "critical mass" to keep itself warm. If you can resist the impulse to combine these "weak" colonies, you will find that they survive the winter with aplomb, and consume far less winter stores than you thought they would need. If you toss a pollen patty and a little feed on these clusters well before last frost, you will then witness the main attribute of NWCs - they are highly nimble and efficient exploiters of even limited resources. The colony expands so early and so rapidly that the only word one can use is "explosion". Also, Aaron said: > First off, it's small hive beetle. This Saturday is the 35th anniversary of > the release of Abbey Road, arguably the best album ever released by any > group, not just the Beatles. Its strange, I pulled out my "Abbey Road" album, and found what may be evidence that SHB has been a problem in the UK longer than we had thought: http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/the_beatles.jpg jim ("I'd stop at nothing to help you." "But you've done nothing..." "Yes, exactly - that's why I stopped!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:03:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, Thanks Bob for reply. > Bob, What is your hands on experience with small cell beekeeping? > > Very small scale. I was the first ( I believe) to name comb which is between > the size used normally and 4.9mm as *transition comb*. > >From history I understand that this is just about the time that peirco 5.25 mm plastic comb came about on the scene. 5.25 mm would be somewhat close in sizing to what would be a transition size and is a good comb to use in regressing and downsizing bees and comb in a colony. I used drawn peirco comb when I down sized bees from a package bee headed by Russian queens. It worked well. Those Russian colonies are still doing well so far three seasons. I just whish that Nick at the same time would have made peirco combs in the 4.9 mm size also. > Aaron explained my position very clearly. Thanks Aaron as we are on the same page! > But apparently there are more factors that are in play than just the queen that may be in the colony as pointed out by others on the list and some not proponents of small cell comb, like myself. Even though I may be a proponent I only recommend small cells be tried and trialed before deciding to switch or not. > > Commercial beekeepers do > > things to increase hive population. > > What? > > many things such as combine hives, add brood, use two queens , feed both > pollen & honey etc. > Well I think hobbyist use these too, I was hoping for a real secret. In reality, besides using two queens, these things to increase colony population is merely propping up poor genetics in some but not all cases. To be honest the queen is a large part of how many numbers of bees there are in a colony but is not the limiting factor. > I have yet to see the results worth the labor/cost with small cell but keep > an open mind. > You may want to take the time to go and visit the Lusby's and see their results with Labor/Cost with using small cells, but you already know some of that history. It might be worth it to you to see them again since you are with an open mind. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::