From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:48:26 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033C349053 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDK7012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0410D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 203170 Lines: 4477 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:31:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Hayes Jr, Jerry" Subject: Re: Metarhizium anisopliae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually Allen there are two groups working on this the USDA lab in Logan,UT and the Weslaco group. We have major projects for field testing this product with both groups. It needs some fine tuning but we have hope based on preliminary data generated this summer. Jerry Hayes -----Original Message----- From: allen dick [mailto:allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 10:58 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: [BEE-L] Metarhizium anisopliae http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct04/bees1004.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:05:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Metarhizium anisopliae In-Reply-To: <08A9A34A42FD0E4E87A1BE23C10A0ABA08C08922@tlhexchange1.doacs.state.fl.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mr Jerry Hayes writes: there are two groups working on this the USDA lab in Logan,UT and the Weslaco group. We have major projects for field testing this product with both groups. It needs some fine tuning but we have hope based on preliminary data generated this summer. Reply: This is good information to know, and since major field testing is planned would it include, if I may ask: Since there are several types of mites in a bee colony, of which some of beneficial............that stay with pollen, or are on the debre floor for example.....would this hurt all the mites in the colony.....leaving a void, or is it specific to varroa mites only? Will this be a part of the field testing looked at? (Knowing for example, also that there are both bad and good bacteria, fungi, viruses too within a colony, and how is this all sorted out by those treating, or should it be? though not being looked at in this case, just what is mentioned here at the site) Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:06:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle in Portugal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My understanding is that the package bees that were illegally imported into Portugal complete with SHB came from the USA and were accompanied by an official certificate as to their health & well being. Can anybody explain please how such certificates are issued and what checks are made to ensure that they are accurate? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:46:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Metarhizium anisopliae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry & All, > We have major projects for field testing > this product with both groups. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct04/bees1004.htm > "While Metarhizium doesn't kill as fast as fluvalinate and coumaphos, the result is the same," Kanga says. "Metarhizium gets the job done, and we won't have to worry about Varroa becoming resistant to the fungus." > Lastly, this article claims in the above quote. The article previously states the quote below. "We tried to find a pathogen of Varroa, and we did it!" says ARS entomologist Walker A. Jones, research leader of the BIRU. Tests showed that Metarhizium was as effective as fluvalinate, even 42 days after application. "Commercial beekeepers are very edgy about using fluvalinate and coumaphos and are eager to see this natural control get to market," Jones says. My opinion; First, unless this fungus naturally occurs within a colony of honey bees it really does not make it a "natural control", other wise it is an intrusive fungal control. Second, stating that "we won't have to worry about Varroa becoming resistant to the fungus" is a bold statement that probably is not proven yet. I suspect longer and more testing needs done. If it does not eliminate varroa, resistance may occur. If this fungus is released upon the main population of this social honey bee and does not cause other problems in the future for honey bees and beekeepers it will surprise me because it seems to me that most things mankind tries to fix by introducing unnatural things winds up failing somehow in the long run. If I were a beekeeper, I would be very cautious of putting an unnatural substance in a clean colony of honey bees without a life time of testing being done on the substance. With feral honey bee colonies making a foot hold in some areas in the world, vorroa resistance and tolerance selection succeeding in some breeding programs, Primorsky Russian, SMR, and survivor feral colonies already tolerating vorroa, and a natural range of worker cell size working not only for AHB but for many beekeepers world wide, we really do not need a fungus invading honey bee colonies without thorough testing for all known and unknown results of doing so. Don't forget about the unknown factors which are inherent in all scientific study and experimentations. It appears that this fungus leaves some mites alive, lingers with the colony, and is suggested to be natural control even though it does not occur naturally in a honey bee colony. This all suggest to me that this control can let varroa become resistant, and present unknown problems for honey bees and beekeepers alike in the future. Watch out!! Honey bees are already naturally fighting back, beekeepers just need to let them do it on their terms and not with unnatural help from impatient individuals. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 03:52:13 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle in Portugal > My understanding is that the package bees that were > illegally imported into Portugal complete with SHB > came from the USA and were accompanied by an official > certificate... By definition, anything "illegally imported" would have bogus paperwork that might look "official", but could not include any legitimate and true "official certificates". It could be that the paperwork was intended to merely meet the requirements for shipment between US states, paperwork that described bees other than the specific bees shipped, or forged paperwork. Depending upon the state in the US to which one is shipping or transporting bees, the inspections and paperwork can be just as rigorous as those required to "export" bees, as in the US, each state calls bees from every other state "imported". (It should be made clear that the "United States" are much less "united" than the EU on such issues. In many regards, the states are more "untied" than "united".) > Can anybody explain please how such certificates > are issued and what checks are made to ensure that > they are accurate? The short (but mostly useless) answer for international shipments is that specific requirements are negotiated between the two countries, based upon the WTO SPS guidelines and the OIE bio-sanitary rules, with each negotiation perhaps resulting in a slightly different set of requirements depending upon the specific "science based" concerns of the destination country in their "risk analysis". The shorter, plain English version is "You never get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate". But does anyone know more specifics than are revealed in the press release on the web? What I have read raises multiple questions. http://www.bbka.org.uk/news/news/small-hive-beetle-found-i.shtml "The SHB has this month been intercepted in an unauthorised consignment of queen bees imported into Portugal from Texas...." Sadly, the "unauthorised consignment" got past Portuguese customs inspection staff and into multiple apiaries before the fraud was discovered, and before the SHB were detected: "Veterinary Authorities took rapid action to isolate the apiaries, destroy all colonies and associated beekeeping equipment and treat the soil." Keith Tignor (VA State Apiarist) would have set up a "bait" colony on the site with an SHB trap to attract, detect, and kill off any surviving SHB that might later emerge from the soil, rather than prompt them to travel further afield, but Keith is a Jedi-Master Beekeeper, which is rare for a PhD entomologist. Can someone who speaks Portuguese suggest this tactic to the Portuguese authorities? Note that "certification" is demonstrated yet again to be a poor replacement for port-of-entry inspection. Inspection would have found the SHB on the bees regardless of the integrity and/or competence of the shipper and receiver. (To review, one needs a system design that is independent of "trust", rather than completely dependent upon it. One also needs a system that expects and handles human error, rather than assuming human perfection as a given.) Given the quote above, I'm not sure what is meant by the use of the term "intercepted". Where I come from, "intercepted" would be used if the consignment was stopped at the port of entry, before reaching the beekeeper. A more accurate term would be "fumble" in the US, and "own goal" everywhere else. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the UK has the ONLY adequate program for detecting and preventing such incidents. They remove all attendants, replace them with locally-bred workers, and send the (killed) attendants to a lab for analysis. Anything less is... uh, less. If the "unauthorized consignment" was the act of a legitimate queen producer, rather than a smuggler, someone screwed up badly, which is not terribly surprising consider the complexity of the WTO regulations and the EU's own regulations, which conflict with, and in some cases violate, the WTO treaties. (This is not unique to the EU, all WTO members are openly gaming the system in one way or another, or at least interpreting agreements in very self-serving ways.) If detected at port of entry, then there would be no doubt that the SHB came from that queen shipment. (Canada had a very similar problem a while ago with bees from the other side of the planet. Accusations were tossed back and forth, strict proof was demanded, the evidence was less than compelling in the view of the exporter, and no one learned anything as a result, nor did anyone change their systems to expect and account for future human error or disagreement.) As an aside, the WTO has published 900+ pages of regulations to date. How can this possibly be called "free trade"? It certainly isn't fair trade, is it? jim (Single-handedly consuming a large fraction of the last of the world's dwindling irony reserves) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 09:16:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle in Portugal In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed Firstly, I understand it was queens, not packages. It was two suspect larvae in the queen cages, not adult beetles. Subsequently confirmed as SHB larvae It was detected at the border inspection process. If all the above are true it does not fully explain how there had to be some colony destruction unless it was entirely precautionary, or some of the queens had been introduced or banked before the results of the inspection of packaging etc. became known. Perhaps the recipient had had an earlier consignment from the same source. We don't know enough yet. Certificates are issued at origin by the veterinary authorities. Before casting any doubts on the certificate you need to know exactly what it said. It may be that SHB was not even mentioned or looked for. After all, if it is an illegal shipment all bets are off about any health matters. Privately I have been told the probable source, and they are a professional and reputable outfit, who are most unlikely to have offered a bogus health certificate. Murray In message , CSlade777@AOL.COM writes >My understanding is that the package bees that were illegally imported into >Portugal complete with SHB came from the USA and were accompanied by an >official certificate as to their health & well being. Can anybody >explain please how >such certificates are issued and what checks are made to ensure that they are >accurate? -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:58:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Yet Another New Sweetene/thixotropic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave > I suspect that the vigour and excursion of the vibration was not > strong enough by an order of magnitude or more. > Before writing it off as 'not working' or increasing the > frequency, I would investigate a higher power. You may be right, but I do not have the equipment to try this. I also wonder what effect the 'order of magnitude' would have on the comb! To be honest, I am also not very interested in spinning out the heather honey - it introduces very small bubbles that give the final product a muddy appearance. I use a modified rack and cloth wine press that gives a clear honey with good sized bubbles that sparkle - prize-winning honey! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 06:44:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle in Portugal In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-257443A5; boundary="=======18884F60=======" --=======18884F60======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-257443A5; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Can anybody explain please how >such certificates are issued and what checks are made to ensure that they are >accurate? >Chris It was probably a certificate claiming to be free of AFB. Seems nobody cares about SHB. I just found beetles this summer in northern Vermont. They were sent here in nucs from South Carolina. Mike --=======18884F60=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 07:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Metarhizium anisopliae In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: > My opinion; First, unless this fungus naturally occurs within a > colony of honey bees it really does not make it a "natural control", > other wise it is an intrusive fungal control. If we get too worried about things being "unnatural" we might as well get rid of all honeybees in the US since they are "unnatural" having been brought in by Europeans. In some places, honeybees are considered intrusive, per Adrian's comments on the channel islands (if I remember correctly). You could even consider Varroa and SHB to be "unnatural" to US bees since they were introduced by beekeepers. So why not use an "unnatural" natural control. Truth is, organic beekeepers would have little problem using something "natural" like a fungus to control Varroa, based on their use of other kinds of controls for livestock and plants (think BT). Dee's comments are correct since they address legitimate concerns about the effect of the fungus on other organisms in the colony that are beneficial but could be affected by the fungus. All beekeepers commit "unnatural" acts on bees just by keeping them. (Pun intended.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:22:41 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle in Portugal > Seems nobody cares about SHB. I just found beetles > this summer in northern Vermont. They were sent > here in nucs from South Carolina. If SHB are not firmly established and widespread in your state, it is well worth having a talk with your state apiarist to find out the state's stance on this issue, and lobby for a much more strict enforcement. There are two possible major vectors for introduction of the pest, Package/Queen/Nuc producers, and Migratory Beekeepers, both for-profit businesses subject to regulation by the state apiarist. Please spare me the convoluted excuses about the "natural spread" of SHB, as SHB certainly can walk and fly, but every introduction in a new far-away area has correlated to the deliberate movement of live bees by people who can be expected to know better. The problem is that the state apiarists in general are forced into a reactionary mode, so they not only must close the barn door only after the horse is gone, but must also clean up the horse droppings. The other problem that state apiarists have is the basic "presumption of innocence" in regard to liability for the costs of a clean-up. The only "proof" would be to re-inspect the package/queen/nuc shipper, and find SHB in his operation. Anything less, and the shipper can make transparent excuses, which are just more horse droppings. Of course, beekeepers themselves lack the will and the motivation (and in some cases, the knowledge) to take the time to rigorously inspect introduced bees from even KNOWN-infested places before putting them near their existing inventory of colonies. Not everyone can afford the time or hassle of having an "isolation yard" and running their own homebrew "quarantine program". When shipping to VA, package and queen producers are expected to certify that they are, among other things "SHB Free" if SHB has been found near their apiaries. Screw up, and you will be banned from shipping any queens or packages to VA for as long as the Apiarist feels appropriate. Migratory beekeepers are of course expected to be inspected before they leave for Virginia, with the same enforcement potential. The whole "detection" issue is where things get complicated, as one has to doubt that the 100% of the hives of a migratory beekeeper are ever going to be 100% inspected by an under-funded, undermanned, or in some cases, no longer existing field inspection team. Likewise, one is forced to doubt that if a relatively new beekeeper, getting his first package, could ever be expected to detect ANY pest or disease when hiving the package. The problem is made worse by the demographics of hobby beekeeping in the US, where the typical beekeeper gives up the hobby after an average of only 5 years, down from 7 years not so long ago (this is from the Bee Culture survey of beekeepers, perhaps the only statistically significant survey of hobby beekeepers done). So, we have two types of for-profit entities, both who can externalize their costs, while internalizing their profits. Both would claim that constant inspections at their expense would disrupt their operations and be "too costly", yet not a year goes by without an incident linked by compelling evidence to one or the other. As for us, we are forced to pay for their mistakes in the form of costs for inspection and treatment of our colonies, yet we are powerless to demand that the industry tighten up on both types of assumed-to-be "professionals" who want to posture and pose as being the best of the best beekeepers. On the other hand, if everyone "cared", the regulation and inspection regime would be described as "draconian", the price of queens, packages, and nucs would be higher, and new beekeepers would be allowed by law to hive packages only at local bee association workshops or under the supervision of experienced eyes. As compared to the diseases and pests, this really does not sound so terrible, does it? Its a battlefield out there, but no one wants to impose martial law, let alone admit that widespread diseases and pests clearly increase short-term profits for both queen/package/nuc suppliers, and increase the price paid for a migratory pollination colony, creating some very interesting potential conflicts of interest. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:40:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike said: > Seems nobody cares about SHB. I just found beetles > this summer in northern Vermont. They were sent > here in nucs from South Carolina. If you buy packages from known areas of SHB then you run the risk *regardless what an underfunded inspection service says* of getting a few SHB. If you buy queens from a area known to be an area of Africanized hybrids then you might get a AHB queen. Since the AHB has arrived many of us have seen *hot* bees with AHB traits. You simply dispatch the queen and requeen. Jim said: If SHB are not firmly established and widespread in your state, it is well worth having a talk with your state apiarist to find out the state's stance on this issue, and lobby for a much more strict enforcement. Legislation & enforcement has not stopped a introduced bee pest yet. SHB is not a big enough risk to beekeepers to shut down the huge migratory pollination industry, southern states or California queen & package bee business. Checking every package is simply not possible and northern beekeepers need the southern & California packages and queens. With tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now more than ever (from varroa resistant to both Apistan & Checkmite) do beekeepers need those bees & packages. How many beekeepers would be keeping bees in five years if you could not get a replacement queen or package over the next five years? Hmmm. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:25:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle In-Reply-To: <000701c4b9df$d062d4c0$27bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5D3D2DC3; boundary="=======CAF73F2=======" --=======CAF73F2======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5D3D2DC3; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >How many beekeepers would be keeping bees in five years if you could not get >a replacement queen or package over the next five years? Hmmm. > >Bob Those that have become self sufficient by raising their own bees and queens? Mike --=======CAF73F2=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:52:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now more > than ever (from varroa resistant to both Apistan & Checkmite) do > beekeepers need those bees & packages. Some of us were talking last year about getting motions passed at the AHPA and ABF meetings to get formic and oxalic approved for use the USA. Somehow, the idea came to nothing, and now, it is looking like a fumble that could lose the game for many. Of course, not being a US beekeeper, it is not my problem, and I hope my friends will forgive me for butting in and expressing an opinion on what is really none of my business, but here goes... My perception is that many, if not most, US beekeepers are simply not well informed -- or have even been deliberately misinformed -- on the topic and do not realise that a cheap, reliable alternative to expensive pesticides is right at hand. I've followed US discussions on the matter, and found that many misperceptions abound. In particular, I attended a discussion on the subject at the ABF last January, and, frankly, I was so shocked at the conviction with which misinformation about formic and oxalic was presented by people I very much respect that I was reluctant to speak up and correct them. That is not to say that there are not many US beekeepers who have seen the light and decided to seek out information. Canadian beekeepers are often asked for details of the treatments by desperate US counterparts. Most concerns are about safety, and although there are risks, AFAIK, these chemicals and/or very similar chemicals are widely used in various commercial applications in the US and are, AFAIK, available to the public without special permit, (sometimes under a proprietary name?). Moreover, formic and oxalic are in use legally in many jurisdictions in Europe, (and Europeans are often derrided for being fussy and prone to overregulation of everything). Canada has approved formic some time ago, and formic is officially recommended for use in combatting mites, and Canada is now well on the way to getting oxalic approved as well. Experiments are underway to verify the efficacy of oxalic methods under Canadian conditions, as we speak. In fact, a researcher was here, just the other day following up on some test applications in my hives. For those who want to know the details of oxalic and formic application and efficacy, there is no shortage of information on the 'net. Some say that these chemicals are too dangerous for Americans to use, but what does that say about Canadians and Europeans? Are they better educated, more careful, or just more daring and their regulators foolhardy? IMO, coumaphos is more dangerous, yet is in widespread use -- and now it doesn't work in an increasing number of places. Too bad that the motions to get approval for formic and oxalic never got to the convention floors. Will they make it past the secretaries this year? If not, then what? allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:18:56 -0400 Reply-To: Dutchmans Gold Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dutchmans Gold Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob said: How many beekeepers would be keeping bees in five years if you could not = get a replacement queen or package over the next five years? Hmmm. Here in Ontario Canada we have managed to stay in business and even = prosper since 1989 when the border was closed to American queens and = packages, because of a concern over the possibility of importing Varroa = and Tracheal mites. Now the powers that be have decided, (in their = infinite wisdom and some arm twisting from some well heeled beekeepers = in Alberta), to re-open the border with the assurance that all queens = and attendants will be inspected for SHB , AHB, etc. The fact that you = are finding these pests in southern and California packages, that make = there way to states that border on our province does nothing to calm my = fears that we will be seeing all these problems in our vicinity in the = next year. It makes me think that maybe those southern packages are part = of the problem instead of the solution. respectfully John Van Alten :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:37:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle In-Reply-To: <000701c4b9df$d062d4c0$27bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Harrison writes: With tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now more than ever (from varroa resistant to both Apistan & Checkmite) do beekeepers need those bees & packages. Reply: Where are your figures coming from for this information or is this just a statement of your beliefs? Could you please outline where these crashes are occurring by region or stare, or expected to occur, between now, and the next pollenation's upcoming season. Respectfully Submitted: Dee A. Lusby __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:11:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Here in Ontario Canada we have managed to stay in business and even > prosper since 1989 when the border was closed to American queens and > packages, Some have, many have not. Were it not for the weak Canadian dollar in recent years (now ended), resulting in decent prices for honey to Canadian producers, and the advent of canola pollination a bit over a a decade ago, the attrition would have been much worse. > Now the powers that be have decided, (in their infinite wisdom > and some arm twisting from some well heeled beekeepers in > Alberta), to re-open the border Any province can refuse to accept imports, and Ontario has banned bees from other provinces all along, so nobody opened the Ontario border to imports -- unless Ontario, itself, decided to jump on the bandwagon and not be left out. It seems that may be the case? FWIW, Ontario is a vocal, but fairly insignificant part of the Canadian beekeeping industry, however it has managed to control the agenda for many years and enforce measures that disadvantaged the rest of the country. Recently, however, the majority and the most economically important portion of the industry has been able to get measures in place to ease the queen bee supply shortages and perhaps permit expansion. IMO, further liberation of trade would certainly help too. > with the assurance that > all queens and attendants will be inspected for SHB , AHB, etc. The > fact that you are finding these pests in southern and California > packages, that make there way to states that border on our province > does nothing to calm my fears that we will be seeing all these > problems in our vicinity in the next year. All evidence I've heard thus far indicates that, although _adult_ SHB can live quite a while in northern areas, they do not reproduce very successfully. Since the reproductive stages cause the problems, we don't anticpate problems, even if an occasional SHB were to slip in. Besides, Ontario has been importing bees from Australia all along, and from what I have heard, the SHB in Australia is very close to some Australian exporters. > It makes me think that > maybe those southern packages are part of the problem instead of the > solution. Sure would be nice if we could have that problem here in Alberta. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:54:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle In-Reply-To: <000701c4b9df$d062d4c0$27bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Harrison writes: If you buy packages from known areas of SHB then you run the risk...... of getting a few SHB. Reply: Think this is understood since first finding and identifying, and just one SHB found does technically mean infestation doesn't it! Bob Continues: If you buy queens from a area known to be an area of Africanized hybrids then you might get a AHB queen. Since the AHB has arrived many of us have seen *hot* bees with AHB traits. You simply dispatch the queen and requeen. Reply: Think too this is understood, and if you buy queens from an area known to be an area of European hybrids then you might get a European queen and not a complex hybrid. And, like all hot queens/hives in the past written about in every local since the 1800s, you simply dispatch the queen and requeen. Jim said: If SHB are not firmly established and widespread in your state, it is well worth having a talk with your state apiarist to find out the state's stance on this issue, and lobby for a much more strict enforcement. Reply: Yes, here IMPOV fright is everything to help enforcement for finding similar beetles in general, that later in identification could/may be another subfamily or closely related by "point of infestation for ID purposes". Bob Harrison writes: Legislation & enforcement has not stopped a introduced bee pest yet. Reply: Words on paper never will, and enforcement can not be all places at same time. Bob Harrison continues: SHB is not a big enough risk to beekeepers to shut down the huge migratory pollination industry, southern states or California queen & package bee business. Reply: Wasn't for AHB either, but was that the intended purpose?... or was the intended purpose for introduction of something else for control, or is it attempting control?... for with control you get end of problem and money line stops. Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. LUsby _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:54:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison writes: With tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now more than ever (from varroa resistant to both Apistan & Checkmite) do beekeepers need those bees & packages. Dee asks: Where are your figures coming from for this information or is this just a statement of your beliefs? Could you please outline where these crashes are occurring by region or stare, or expected to occur, between now, and the next pollenation's upcoming season. I am directly involved by phone with two commercial outfits with many crashing hives (Nebraska & North Carolina). I n Missouri I know of four crashing. All have treated with an approved mite control (three different types) as per label and have found varroa loads over threshold (after treatment period). Examples of treatment failures I have been told about when they have asked my opinion. Checkmite failed and now using Apistan Apistan failed and now using Checkmite Checkmite & Apistan failed and now trying Apilife Var. Sucrose failed and now using Apistan Sucrose failed and now using checkmite I am puzzled by the sucrose failures as they said they pulled every frame and treated three times. One did say he treated at five day intervals ( instead of 7) which might be the problem. Maybe both got the timing wrong ? Don't know! An editor of one of the leading bee magazines sent an email wanting me to write an article on my talk at the Kansas Honey producers meeting because he is getting reports from all over the U.S. of hives crashing from varroa. The beekeeper which we would send hives with to California (*if* we decide to send bees to help with the severe shortage) has close ties to Almond pollination as he sends around 8,000 hives of his own each year. He said California beekeepers are seeing massive deadouts and are afraid they will not be able to fill pollination contracts this year. Asking for help with pollination. (KHPA meeting Oct. 16,2004) I was invited to attend the meeting of the National Honey Board in Kansas City this week and talked to many large commercial beekeepers. Same story. (Oct. 20&21 ,2004) I am deliberately holding back outfit names but the talk of the meeting was of a large California queen breeder with enough varroa losses to consider getting out of the business. (NHB meeting Oct. 20-21, 2004) Large Missouri migratory beekeeper received a call last spring from a large Texas queen breeder wanting to buy hives as his were crashing from varroa. Around 4,000 .We later heard he bought thousands in the Dakota's. Shall I go on? The situation is not as bad as when tracheal mites arrived in the U.S. and beekeepers lost half the commercial hives. Or as bad as when varroa first arrived and over half the commercial hives were lost. But the problem is growing. I saw the problem coming as did Dee Lusby, Barry Birkey, Dennis Murriel and others and if you read back several years to our discussions ( 2001-2002 on BEE-L) you will see we predicted the current problem. My own bees are doing great. I last used chemical strips three years ago. I have since put over half my operation on new comb. Hoping to raise and install varroa tolerant queens in the rest of my hives next spring. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:49:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] Re: Metarhizium anisopliae Comments: To: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Bush on OrganicBeekeepers writes: The fungus had already gotten EPA approval for a variety of applications from sugar beet worms, to termites. It has been shown to be harmless to people. I don't know of any long term research on it's effects on bees. Reply: So then good enough in beehives for wax worms then? termites on bottom boards with hives still on top then? Would probably be non-discript then in killing all mites, both beneficial and harmful then, creating imbalance probably? Then if it kills this on other crops,and termits, but doesn't kill the bees...................the bacteria feeding on beneficial fungi inside the hive, would it not hurt? There is a big difference between just killing termits and sugar beet worms, to the inside of a beehive with a whole system of beneficial parasitic host relationships that could be killed off too, just not the bees! Any one have any thoughts on all of these questions/thoughts above? Regards, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:45:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) In-Reply-To: <000801c4ba24$c62acfe0$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison mentioned: > An editor of one of the leading bee magazines sent an email wanting me to > write an article on my talk at the Kansas Honey producers meeting because he > is getting reports from all over the U.S. of hives crashing from varroa. This has causes me to wonder if the above described situation is specifically a US problem , or one that is also happening in Canada - separated only from the US by a paper line. If it is specific to the US, then is it thought that the losses will also eventually occur in Canada in the near future? As Allen Dick suggested, treatment against V.d. north of the border is different to that of the US due to beekeepers having Formic acid available. Is this difference protecting Canadian beekeepers at the present from the situation developing in the US? - THAT IS if there is an actual difference in colony losses percentages from Varroa. I do observe that once "Apistan" resistant varroa are found on Canadian territory, the Provincial apiarists recommend the use of "Checkmite" strips. This suggests to me that they presume that the majority of beekeepers in these areas are not ready or capable of implementing a generalised IPM strategy. Noting that Coumaphos resistance is already a reality in Ontario; rather than extending the strip treatment mentality, I would have thought that a published IPM strategy is more than overdue. Maybe that is the root cause of the lack of transfer from strip to IPM mentality - there is no easy pamphlet to read and act upon. If so: without the strips - relatively few beekeepers know what to do! From each Provincial Apiarist (read "local equivalent" depending on nation), I suggest that a pamphlet entitled "Life without Strips" is published. It indicating actions that may be undertaken to protect bee colonies. Its objective being to enable beekeepers in any locality to obtain and implement a working strategy on how to protect against/treat varroa mites. Simple really! Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:06:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Weaver. [Was: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bob wrote: >>I am deliberately holding back outfit names but the talk of the meeting was of a large California queen breeder with enough varroa losses to consider getting out of the business. (NHB meeting Oct. 20-21, 2004) I was impressed with a brochure from Weaver in Texas that said they have not treated for varroa for some 3 years now. Perhaps they have found varroa resistance? I don't know that their bees are good for the north. Regards, Waldemar LI, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 06:31:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 23 Oct 2004 to 24 Oct 2004 (#2004-285) In-Reply-To: <200410250401.i9P3ixcQ016309@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dee A. Lusby wrote: "... killing the inside of a beehive with a whole system of beneficial parasitic host relationships that could be killed off too, just not the bees!" Dee has mentioned several times in her posts to the list "beneficial 'symbionts' ". I would be interested in learning about these beneficial sumbionts. Could you please expound on this Dee, or provide some pointers to sites on these symbionts? Thanks, Mike _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:21:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 23 Oct 2004 to 24 Oct 2004 (#2004-285) In-Reply-To: <20041025133157.56621.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mike Stoops writes: Dee has mentioned several times in her posts to the list "beneficial 'symbionts' ". I would be interested in learning about these beneficial sumbionts. Could you please expound on this Dee, or provide some pointers to sites on these symbionts? Thanks, Mike Reply: Here you would want to read thru works written by now retired microbiologist Dr Martha A. Gilliam of the USDA, one researcher I have respected for many many years of the old school who did much work concerning beneficial bacteria, yeasts, and molds, etc within beehives and their harmonious relationships. Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:57:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] Re: Metarhizium anisopliae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] [Organicbeekeepers] Re: Metarhizium anisopliae > There is a big difference between just killing termits and sugar beet worms, > to the inside of a beehive with a whole system of beneficial parasitic host > relationships that could be killed off too, just not the bees! Hi Dee and All, I'm also very much interested in the overall affect on the hive. Metarhizium anisopiae may be found in some beehives at this time. I do not know if that has been studied or not. The idea of system balance is very important to the survival and health of a colony.That is the paradigm that has to be used in beekeeping. We need to back out in our observations and look at the whole picture. More questions than answers when it comes to honeybees. I'm learning all the time and that is after 38 years of beekeeping. Very complex system. I hope that Metarhizium anisopliae can work out without negative side effects. Since it is in nature now, we may have a chance to work with it.Don't ever look at one thing and think it is a magic bullet. Too complex of system that is changing all the time. I'm interested in any study that can find M A in the hives at this time and how it is working. Not just the ones we have putting it in. That will give you the answer. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya Wa. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:58:10 -0400 Reply-To: info@miteaway.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "NOD Apiary Products Ltd." Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now In-Reply-To: <006f01c4ba03$350c4000$3fb85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Some of us were talking last year about getting > motions passed at the AHPA > and ABF meetings to get formic and oxalic approved > for use the USA. > > allen > A Beekeeper's Diary: > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ An overview of the formic acid situation in Canada: In 1994, on the initiative of the Canadian Association of Professional Apiculturists (CAPA), a PROPOSED scheduling of formic acid, PMRA document C94-05, was issued. It lays out the standards and the manner in which Canadian beekeepers may use formic acid to control tracheal and varroa mites. It is available on the web. Just type into a search engine "C94-05". The beekeepers took this as an OK for legal use of formic acid, mostly by word of mouth. Many, if not most, have never even heard of C94-05, never mind having read or followed it. The Pest Management Regulatory Agency (PMRA), the Canadian government agency that oversees pest control products, was shifted from being under the Agriculture Ministry to Health Canada in 1995. Since then all pest control products have been undergoing review. In 2001 formic acid came up and the PMRA reviewers were not impressed with what was going on in the beekeeping community. The use requirements set out in C94-05 were not being followed. Provincial Apiarists were publishing their own recommendations with no scientific review of new application methods. Industrial grades of formic acid with excessive levels of impurities were being sold through bee supply outlets, and beekeepers were not training themselves or their staff in basic safety procedures for handling such a highly corrosive product. Reports were coming out of beekeepers losing the skin off their hands by not using the right gloves, skin off their legs and arms from splashes going through clothing. A friend working with Mite-Wipes had a bucket he was carrying slosh acid that struck him in the face, run down behind his goggles and into his eyes that led to permanent partial loss of vision as well as leaving extensive acid burns to his face. PMRA had had enough. In November of 2001 the industry was told it would require the registration of formic acid products or permission to use formic acid in beehives would be officially removed. The agency was willing to work with the industry through a transition period. At that point Apistan was still fully effective and beekeepers did not have to rely on any other products or management for varroa control. None of the bee supply outfits or Medi-Vet decided to pursue the registration of liquid formic acid. Mite-Wipes decided not to pursue registration. As far as I know, PMRA has not received any form of application for registration from MiteGone. NOD Apiary Products, producer of Mite-AwayII, has been working with PMRA since January of 2002, and submitted a registration package in January of 2003. The PMRA review was completed August 24 this year, they officially decided the application has "merit",issued a PRDD, and it will soon go into the public review process. The Canadian Honey Council(CHC) and CAPA Chemical Committee have been kept informed of this process. January 2004 the CHC voted to request PMRA to have all non-registered formic acid applications off the market in two years. They realize in the era of resistance to hard chemicals, now spreading in Canada, beekeepers need formic acid applications that are proven to work, treatments the industry can rely on. It is not known what PMRA will do with this request, but it is likely that 2005 will be the last year any form of working with liquid form acid will be legal in Canada. The Canadian beekeeping industry has managed its approach to varroa very well. The Canadian border closure since 1987 delayed the coming of varroa until 1992, and the emergence of hard chemical resistance until two years ago. It has had 11 years to work with formic acid, to work the bugs out. It has a proven soft chemical management strategy in place, with the full registration of Mite-AwayII imminent and for oxalic acid underway. I was at the North Dakota Beekeepers Association meeting last week and there were commercial beekeepers there talking about the collapse of their colonies over the last six weeks. A lot of these colonies were to be heading to California for almond pollination, and now there were no bees. My heart went out to them as they struggle to keep these family outfits viable. Many were envious of the Canadian situation and are looking forward to the completion of the EPA registration of Mite-AwayII by the end of 2004. Hopefully an approach to registering oxalic acid for use in the US will be worked out by the US beekeepers. yours truly, David VanderDussen NOD Apiary Products ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:29:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: Weaver. [Was: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Mr Walddig, I have had Weavers' Buckfast bees for eight years and I love those = bees. They start flying about forty minutes before the Italians and I = have had great success with them. My only reason for not ordering them any more is the way the Postal = system treats them. Two years ago My six packages were left on the = Dallas Airport tarmac all afternoon, they all arrived dead. I cannot = stand cruelty, Buckfast reshipped My order but I don't want to see that = happen again. Luckily My bees survived the past few winters so I did not = have to buy more. We now buy Our bees from a Man on Cape Cod Who drives = down to Georgia and straight back with bees that are so healthy that = they look like they had been put in the packages that morning. But if = You try them I am positive You will like them. They winter very well and = I've never had any of the aggressiveness that has been reported a few = years ago when a hive replaced it's queen. They also winter very well = and make an impressive honey crop. I have also purchased Buckfast Queens = from Canada with very good results. If You try them I wish You luck. If = it weren't for the Post Office I would have all Buckfast bees. Garry Libby Attleboro. Massachusetts, U.S.A. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:39:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Beneficial Micro Organisms Assoc With Honeybees Comments: To: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dieter Schuerer wrote earlier on organicbeekeepers: > > In a report from Sweden, I read that there are about 40 micro > organisms in a beehive that live in symbiosis with the bees and thus > help them survive. These micro organisms are probably harmed when > using acids and other chemicals and certainly also when using anti > biotics. > > Does anyone have more information on what type of microfauna there > is in a hive? I have not found anything on the internet on this. Reply: Dieter, earlier I referenced Dr Martha A. Gilliam to you. Here is a little more for how deep she went into the subject matter. In her search for beneficial bacteria, yeasts, and molds of the bee world, Gilliam worked with and combed hives of the familiar European honey bee, Apis mellifera, in the United States and abroad. Her sleuthing throughout her career I believe yielded some 8,000 strains of microbes that she painstakingly isolated and identified. Over 1,000 alone she used to keep in a freezer for her lab work. These are relative to our honeybees by the way, so I would think that there are more then 40 micro organisms we as beekeepers would have to consider hurting, when we apply various treatments within colonies,. that also means contact with the body of the bees themselves in beneficial parasitic host relationships. Regards, Dee A. Lusby :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 19:26:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Subject: Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LeavesHi all, I have read several threads on homemade propolis tincture. Can anyone tell me if propolis will dissolve in warm oil. In addition to my bees, I am also a hobby soaper and would like to add propolis, not only for the fragrence, but for the antibacterial properties as well. Alcohol based tincture will not work as well. Thanks much for any and all help. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:35:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 23 Oct 2004 to 24 Oct 2004 (#2004-285) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee, Mike & All, Mike wrote; > Could > you please expound on this Dee, or provide some > pointers to sites on these symbionts? Thanks, Mike > Dee Replied; > Here you would want to read thru works written by now > retired microbiologist Dr Martha A. Gilliam of the USDA, > I found these links related to here work; http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/aug98/bees0898.pdf http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/aug98/bees0898.htm http://members.aol.com/queenb95/breeding.html http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/cupric_salts.pdf http://www.apicolturaonline.it/mailmr00.htm http://www.wasba.org/articles/page12.html . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:08:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Weaver. [Was: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks for the info, Garry. I was curious as to Weaver's claims that their bees have not needed a varroa treatment in some 3 years. Have folks here bought queens from Weaver's and seen that? Did your Buckfast bees build up as fast as other races, say Carniolans, in your neck of the woods in Mass.? I've had New World Carniolans and Italians and was happy with their early build up. The NWC were out flying about an hour earlier than the Italians but I thought the Italians' flights were more intense/frequent. The production was about the same. Regards, Waldemar LI, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:50:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > An overview of the formic acid situation in Canada: I wondered when I read this interesting article, and it was not long until my phone rang. My source is very close to the CAPA, the CHC Chemical Comittee and PMRA discussions, and takes issue with the suggestion that these bodies intend to withdraw or limit the use of either formic by Canadian beekeepers. Specifically, my source tells me that in a conference early last year, CAPA, CHC, and PMRA agreed to leave formic use as-is and also decided to work towards approval of oxalic acid for general use, employing data from Europe and also local experience from tests in Canada. I'm also told that it almost seems that several Canadian beekeeper/entrepreneurs are trying to gain control of formic and oxalic treatments and generate a profit by developing proprietary applications, then attempting to discredit and outlaw the inexpensive, effective methods that are proven and recommended in our different regions. If there is any pressure to limit the use of liquid formic, I'm told that this is where it is coming from, not the authorities. Don't get me wrong, these proprietary methods certainly have their place, particularly for small operators or those who are not prepared to learn what they need to use formic safely or effectively, but I am also told that they do not work in all circumstances, and that, for example, the NOD treatment has problems where time is short, and a quick fix is required. This is not to say that it is not good, but that the various other applications definitely have their place. In short, if there is a move under foot to limit the use of formic and oxalic by beekeepers, I have not heard. Au contraire. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:41:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Coleene & all > Can anyone tell > me if propolis will dissolve in warm oil. It is not so much that propolis will or will not dissolve in warm oil, there is a degree of solubility, but it takes a very long time (months, maybe even years) to achieve. Dissolve your propolis in the alcohol first then mix the resulting liquid with your oil for making the soap. Even this method takes a longer time than most will realise, as propolis takes a long time to fully dissolve in alcohol (weeks). Regards & Best 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Temporary Conditions... Using 'PATCHY' VPN pass-through server 2nd build :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:28:49 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now > Some of us were talking last year about getting motions passed at the AHPA > and ABF meetings to get formic and oxalic approved for use the USA. As far as formic acid goes the following approvals were obtained: 1) During 1996 through 1999, "For-Mite" obtained various approvals from the EPA, including a "tolerance in beeswax and honey". It is not known why no product was marketed by the applicant after all the effort, but Mann Lake (the applicant) can be assumed to have been happier selling CheckMite strips than Formic Acid, likely due to liability concerns. 2) Later on, the USDA itself developed Formic Acid Gel, and BetterBee took it all the way to a full-bore "Section 3" EPA approval. Some gel-packs were shipped, but they tended to have the same impact on dealer warehouse shelves and floors as the green slime that the creatures "bleed" in the "Alien" movie series, so back to the drawing board. 3) Most recently, the Mite-Away folks have worked with the EPA to get what is said to be full "Section 3" approval for their product, rumored to be slated for this winter. If this many approvals can be obtained, clearly "approval" is not the problem, is it? Anyway, such resolutions are not worth the paper they aren't printed on. If a large group of beekeepers want change, they should realize that 1,000 paper letters from 1,000 real beekeepers to their individual elected representatives would have a lot more impact than anything from either of the self-proclaimed representatives of all US beekeepers. Elected officials listen to their constituents more than they listen to what they view as "trade groups" or "pressure groups". (From a practical standpoint, neither group has anywhere near as many attendees as the Ohio Tri-County meeting each March, so if one wanted to talk about constituencies, they would both be competing to be #3, as EAS would clearly be #2 in terms of numbers of beekeeper members.) Of course, both organizations want to claim to represent more of the large beekeepers, ignoring the fact that large-scale beekeeping has about as much in common with small-scale beekeeping as marching bands have in common with string quartets. Even if a US Congressperson or Senator agreed that the plight of beekeepers was severe, "breaking" the system to grant relief to beekeepers on pesticide regs would be like amending the law to exempt beekeeper's trucks from all safety inspection and licensing requirements - indefensible nonsense. The Chairman of the House Agriculture Committee happens to be my congressperson, so I know for certain that while such resolutions would get a polite response, it would not prompt action that would do more harm than good. One must think with care about one's goal before one starts lobbying. (For example, ABF's position on bee imports was "just say no". This was a childish demand in light of the WTO treaty, which does not allow "just say no". The ABF was an embarrassment to those of us who were trying to make tangible progress towards biosecurity.) The good news is that the system isn't broken. Mite-Away sailed through EPA approval with ease, and is rumored to be due a full "Section 3" registration just in time for Christmas, clear proof that anyone who wishes could register anything they wished. After all, regulators who will approve an organophosphate clearly have approved something just short of weapons-grade plutonium in terms of human toxicity. Would all beekeepers be willing to sign a waiver of liability indemnifying the manufacturer and dealer of any/all liability resulting from use or handling of either Formic or Oxalic as a precondition to buying either? Somehow I doubt it. > My perception is that many, if not most, US beekeepers are > simply not well informed... I was so shocked at the conviction with > which misinformation about formic and oxalic was presented by people > I very much respect... Would YOU admit to being "well-informed" on a technique that would not only imply at least fines, if not criminal charges, but might also cause your entire honey crop to be rejected by your buyers if the story "got out"? For an object lesson, let's wait and see what happens to those that are implicated in the sodium cyanide incident. I can detect the faint odor of burning woodenware from here. Did you ever stop to think that otherwise well-informed people making statements and asking questions so clueless might be indulging in some deliberate misdirection to give the impression that they had not even thought about doing something that they really had been doing for a while? Beekeepers are a highly creative group of people. Yeah, "creative" - that's the ticket. jim (The worst defense is a bad offense) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 06:26:19 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Weaver. [Was: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle)] Nothing against B. Weaver, R. Weaver, or even X. Weaver, where "X" is an member of the set "A" to "Z". (Danny Weaver is a Ramones fan, so he is certainly my kind of beekeeper!), but... > I was impressed with a brochure from Weaver in Texas > that said they have not treated for varroa for some 3 > years now. Perhaps they have found varroa resistance? Hold on there, walk slowly through what you just said. While you made a true and accurate statement, your use of the term "impressed" means that you have not thought slowly enough about what you said: a) They were talking about what THEY can do with THEIR hives. b) They carefully avoided making any statement at all about the open-mated progeny of those hives that you would be sent. c) If they made no firm statements about the specific bees that they would send you, but instead spoke only about their hives, this is an attempt to get you to draw a conclusion that they themselves are apparently unwilling to draw. It should be crystal clear why they would be unwilling to draw a conclusion that would be a major selling point, if true. If the above does not make you first laugh and then slowly pound your head against the nearest wall, then you still don't understand it fully, and need to read it over again until you do. And if you mean the B. Weaver brochure with the "blue work shirt" cover and the really good photography, that came in the mail months ago, you may have not read the following, and realized that the art and the production values were so good because they had to be good to draw attention away from the free prizes one might find inside every box: "Small Hive Beetle is now in Texas, and we have found them in some of our colonies. We will do our best to avoid shipping hive beetles with package bees or queens, but there is no effective method of assuring that package bees do not harbor adult hive beetles, Aethina tumida. It is somewhat easier to be reasonably certainly that queen shipments do not contain hive beetles and we will take precautions to keep them out of you queen shipments. Unfortunately, since small hive beetles are now here in the US, and are seemingly prone to spread like wildfire - as Varroa did, there may ultimately be little any of us can do to stop its advance through honey bee populations in many parts of North America." My question is how would this be any different from playing Russian Roulette with multiple bullets in the gun in regard to SHB? As for the statements about "spreading like wildfire", it seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes from a firm that ships thousands of packages and queens each spring all over the country, many to beekeepers who would not know a small hive beetle if it landed on the bridge of their nose. It would not really spread "like wildfire", but at the slightly faster speed of the UPS and US Mail delivery trucks! jim (The furthest fringes of the culture can be found on the internet, providing a glimpse of where you will find yourself in the future. The good news is that beekeeping is so "fringe" we may all someday become "cool".) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:08:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Susan Jordan Subject: Allergies and Canadian Beekeepers Hi, I have read up on the archives about allergies and have just a couple of questions. I have kept bees for almost 10 years, and this past september I had what the CHC webpage calls a dangerous reaction that left me in the emergency room. Natually I don't want to give up the bees and I would get allergy shots. I was just wondering how effective they are, past experiences, and for those Canadian beekeepers, the cost of the shots, as I don't have a health plan that would cover them. I now carry an epi pen (which i was shocked to find out they cost over $100 cdn) and I try even harder not to get stung. I haven't been stung since, and wondered if this was a one time thing or is now going to be 'normal' for me. Any advice would be great. Susan Ontario, Canada :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:11:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Benjamin Benavidez Subject: Beekeeping MeritBadge Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain the beekeeping merit badge still. I have checked on many merit badge pages and have noticed that they discontinued it two years ago. But, I want to know if you are still allowed to receive it. Does anyone have any badges that they could send to me? I will pay shipping for them. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:49:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Beekeeping MeritBadge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I spoke to Jeff at the national boy scout office a few years ago myself. He said they might bring it back and update it. As a former boy scout myself and beekeeper, I made suggestions on how to try to keep it from becoming obsolete too fast. He number then was 972 580-2000. Russ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:57:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Allergies and Canadian Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would > get allergy shots. I was just wondering how effective they are, past > experiences, and for those Canadian beekeepers, the cost of the > shots, as I don't have a health plan that would cover them. They worked for our son, who was allergic when in preschool, but went on to work as a beekeeper with us for a while before moving on to other things. The cost was so minimal that I don't recall, or was covered by Alberta Health, since the condition could be considered life threatening. I was pretty broke at the time, so my wife or I would remember if it cost anything much at all. > and wondered if this was a one time thing or is now going to > be 'normal' for me. I wrote my impressions (YMMV) some time back and posted them at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/stings.htm In short, there is no way to know without being stung -- or tested by a competent doctor. Most GPs are pretty much in the dark about bee stings, and you may need to ask to see a specialist, or even two. Ask your provincial beekeeping organisation and authorities for references. That is the kind of essential info they should have current and handy at all times. If they have no clue, contact the ABA at http://www.albertabeekeepers.org I recommend that you ask around until you get the answers you need. Start with your own doctor and move on from there if you aren't satisfied with the answers you get. You have a right to get the treatment you need for your safety. Good luck, and don't give up. Although there are no guarantees, you stand a very good chance of putting the allergy behind you. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:14:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Bee-L: In response to several beekeepers' calls regarding NOD's e-mail to Bee-L. I asked Heather Clay, Canadian Honey Council, National Coordinator to verify the published information. I included her reply at the end of this message. "NOD indicated in the post at Bee-L that Canadian beekeepers would lose formic acid applied with various methods in two years." The CHC did not vote in their resolution to have all none-registered formic acid application off the market in two years as indicated in NOD's post. The CHC voted to ask the PMRA to maintain the existing C94-05 to permit using formic acid in bee hives for a further 2 years. As I understand and being with the rest of provincial apiculturists, representatives of the CHC on a conference call with representatives of PMRA, most of the provincial apiculturists requested from the PMRA to maintain the C94-05. This would allow beekeepers to use formic acid in forms that are effective and safe as at meet their own environment. Limiting the use to one method of application with a single recommendation will not fit a country of a size like Canada. In recent reports, several beekeepers have experienced brood loss when applied MiteAway II in the spring as reported by some beekeepers in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Quebec. Beekeepers in the Prairie provinces have short spring and fall with quick changes of temperature. For example, we have 2 feet of snow on the ground since October 15 after having the first snow storm in the middle of September. Beekeepers got caught with bad weather as they were feeding and treating. This change of temperature does not allow them to rely on Mite Away or any other type of single application of formic acid. In limited areas, some beekeepers are using it, but so far the multiple application is the preferred method of application. The short season and intensive management would allow beekeepers to visit their hives in the spring or fall once every week. Thus, beekeepers would be able to apply formic acid on regular bases. With the same frame work in mind, the CHC is heading the way to register oxalic acid with PMRA. It is always a good policy to give several options to beekeepers to choose from. This will allow beekeepers to adopt the method that fits their management system and their environment. medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North Heather Caly response: Hi John and Medhat The CHC voted to ask PMRA to maintain the existing arrangement for formic acid for another two years. The intention was to allow beekeepers access to the various applications of the product during that time. The wording is below. #15 Carried Whereas the treatments using formic acid fit within Integrated Pest Management and will be used on an immediate and long term basis. Be it resolved that the Canadian Honey Council asks the PMRA to maintain the existing C94-05 to permit using Formic Acid in beehives for a further 2 years" http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=2725 Best wishes Heather :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:37:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: merit badges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wish the Boy scouts would redo the beekeeping book and badge but my local council said From: joburns@bsamail.org (John Burns) To: Deanapiary@wmconnect.com as far as I know, once a merit badge is retired, it is GONE. You make have your District Executive check into it with the national office. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:56:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Beekeeping MeritBadge In-Reply-To: <200410261411.i9QDlBu0012808@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Keep an eye on E-Bay. Search under "beekeeping." You find frequent offers for merit badges and the merit badge books offered at auction. Prices vary, of course. I bought a merit badge book just for fun. When I was a Boy Scout, I didn't have an interest in bees and consequently didn't work toward the beekeeping merit badge.. Likewise, I too, was disappointed they discontinued the merit badge of late. Since attaining my Eagle rank under the "old system" of 21 merit badges, much has changed in the Boy Scouts. Some of the changes have helped include more boys, some changes seemed to have watered down the heart of scouting--but that's an issue of this topic. I would love to get some Boy Scouts involved in keeping bees. But the headquarters won't know unless they hear from the grass roots. Grant Silver Palm Eagle Scout Troop 6 - Albert Lea, MN Benjamin Benavidez wrote: Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain the beekeeping merit badge still. I have checked on many merit badge pages and have noticed that they discontinued it two years ago. But, I want to know if you are still allowed to receive it. Does anyone have any badges that they could send to me? I will pay shipping for them. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:17:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Medhat Nasr, Ph. D Sir, both you and Allen Dick and others have given some insite into the Formic Acid in usage in Canada and I sure appreciate that, but; Is it possible to go over how Canada is handling the heavy metal side of the formic acid treatments and what they are doing and/or how regulating, to not worry about hive product contaminations of honey, wax, propolis, and pollen? I hear that there is a difference in over the counter Formic Acid sold say vs. that for food usage or isn't this true? Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:50:53 -0400 Reply-To: info@miteaway.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "NOD Apiary Products Ltd." Subject: Now formic and oxalic in Canada (was) Re: [BEE-L] Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now In-Reply-To: <001a01c4bb0f$73b17610$41b85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- allen dick wrote: > > An overview of the formic acid situation in > Canada: > My source is very close to the CAPA, the CHC > Chemical Comittee and PMRA > discussions, and takes issue with the suggestion > that these bodies intend to > withdraw or limit the use of either formic by > Canadian beekeepers. CHC Resolution #15, January 2004 requested a 2 year sunset for C94-05. It's on the CHC website. There was no time frame closure recommendations for C94-05 until this resolution was passed after being debated on the floor, including input from John Gruzka, chair of the CAPA chemical committee, and PMRA people in attendance. The original resolution was to keep formic available as is. After discussion it was amended with the 2 year time frame and passed by the delegates. Specifically, my source tells me that in a > conference early last year, CAPA, > CHC, and PMRA agreed to leave formic use as-is and > also decided to work > towards approval of oxalic acid for general use, > employing data from Europe > and also local experience from tests in Canada. > > I'm also told that it almost seems that several > Canadian > beekeeper/entrepreneurs are trying to gain control > of formic and oxalic > treatments and generate a profit by developing > proprietary applications, > then attempting to discredit and outlaw the > inexpensive, effective methods > that are proven and recommended in our different > regions. If there is any > pressure to limit the use of liquid formic, I'm told > that this is where it > is coming from, not the authorities. We strongly encourage, and have done so since 1997 when beekeepers got together to form NOD, anyone with a soft chemical treatment, be it thymol, oxalic or formic based, to register. If NOD Apiary Products(NOD) had not started the registration process with PMRA in January 2002 there was a good chance 2001 would of been the last year for C94-05. We probably extended the umbrella of C94-05 for Canadian beekeepers by four years by initiating the registration process. PMRA was taking this very seriously. They actually sent two PMRA people from Ottawa to the NOD research sites in August 2002 to examine our protocols and familiarize themselves with the industry. They spent the day with us and Provincial Apiarist Doug McRory, questioning all pesticide uses and fumigants used in the beekeeping industry, as well as formic acid. They went right to the trial sites, and suited up to go into the hives. We opened bee hives for them and, along with Alison Skinner of the OBA tech transfer program, took them through what they were seeing. We were then audited by a Health Canada auditor who came down from Guelph to check out our tests sites, and then were audited from the Research Auditors from Revenue Canada in Ottawa and the local Revenue Canada office here in Belleville, who again came on site, to make sure the reports written up were valid. Over all, just from the federal level, we had five different experts come to make sure our trials were on the level. > Don't get me wrong, these proprietary methods > certainly have their place, > particularly for small operators or those who are > not prepared to learn what > they need to use formic safely or effectively, but I > am also told that they > do not work in all circumstances, and that, for > example, the NOD treatment > has problems where time is short, and a quick fix is > required. This is not > to say that it is not good, but that the various > other applications > definitely have their place. Mite-AwayII has the shortest varroa treatment time frame, formic or other, and the shortest withdrawal time. It is designed for the commercial beekeeper. Have you read the label? Checked out the website? www.miteaway.com I am not sure who your source is, but there were two national meetings in the summer of 2003 to try to get oxalic acid (OA) available to the beekeeping industry. I was at both of them. The first was a pre-meeting to the meeting with PMRA, and the second was the meeting with PMRA in September, which Provincial Apiarists and industry representatives from across the country joined by conference call. For the meeting with PMRA I took a bottle of OA with me purchased from my local drug store, MSDSs for OA, and copies of a data package from Europe. I explained why no one would be willing to take on the risks and cost of registering an OA and suggested CHC hold the registration (there must be a registrant, the government won't end up holding the registration as they ended up doing with C94-05, which they described as a "mistake"), and the label could go out with the annual Provincial Apiarist disease control recommendations to registered beekeepers, as well as being posted on the net. PMRA seemed to think this was all possible. In order to get this all off the ground as soon as possible, NOD offered to compile, submit, and do the follow up for the OA registration on behalf of CHC, who would remain the registrant. NOD sent in an offer to the CHC office to do this for $20,000.00, which, if anyone is at all familiar with what has to be done for a pesticide registration submission would realize, doesn't even cover off the expenses. This offer of registration assistance should be seen as a service to the industry, not an attempt to control or make money off it. If CHC had accepted our offer, OA would probably be legal for use in Canada this fall, right now. There was the political will behind it, and a person in place at PMRA to expedite it. As it is, CHC had to decide if they wanted to be the registrant, and then decided to do the fund-raising first, making sure the money was in the bank before committing it, which are solid risk-taking and business decisions on CHC's part. NOD has been working in the background for the beekeepers for the last eight years, and will continue to do so. Beekeepers have not had to rely on soft chemical treatments. We had to document what Mite-AwayII will do for mite control. PMRA folks are very nice to work with, they want to see a healthy food supply too. The more options available to the beekeepers proven to work the better. yours in beekeeping, David VanderDussen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:21:19 -0400 Reply-To: info@miteaway.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "NOD Apiary Products Ltd." Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." wrote: >> I asked Heather Clay, Canadian Honey Council, > National Coordinator to > verify the published information. > > "NOD indicated in the post at Bee-L that Canadian > beekeepers would lose > formic acid applied with various methods in two > years." > > The CHC did not vote in their resolution to have all > none-registered > formic acid application off the market in two years > as indicated in NOD's > post. NOD did not bring or have any resolutions presented at CHC. Indeed, only delegates can bring resolutions, so this is impossible. regards, David v ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:42:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Re: Allergies and Canadian Beekeepers I started beekeeping in 1980 and until 1999 never had any reaction. In the spring of 1999 I was reversing brood boxes late one evening after work, without my suit, gloves and only using a veil. I dropped a box. The resulting stings that I received after putting the boxes back togather caused immediate iching, flushed feeling, increased heart rate, nausia, and vomiting. Luckily my wife is a nurse and she did all the right things. I went to my doctor who recommended me to a specialist( allergy doctor). At the first meeting I caught this specialist reading up on bee stings because he/she did not know much about them. After being tested I was told/pronouced to be allergic to honey bees and hornets. It took 3 1/2 years of shots to be pronounced non-allergic. I recommend that you find a professional that is familiar with these types of allergic reactions. Keep searching until you find someone that does not have to refer to a book ,but has experience in this field. I have since been told by my current physican, that the reaction I experienced from the large number of stings in his opinion was venom poisoning and not an allergic reation. I spent money every week that may not have been needed. There is a lot of information on the internet concerning allergic reactions. But, there is nothing better than an "experienced physican". Since 2002 there have been no reactions, I work the hives without gloves (except when taken honey) and seldom can even find where I was stung that day. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:05:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>The CHC did not vote in their resolution to have all non-registered formic acid application off the market in two years as indicated in NOD's post.<<< > > NOD did not bring or have any resolutions presented at > CHC. Indeed, only delegates can bring resolutions, so > this is impossible. No one suggested that NOD made a motion. The first statement is correct. Actually CHC just routinely asked for an extension of formic use. 2 years is the usual extension period for this sort of thing, as those of us who fought the border closure know well. The usual process, for regulations under observation, is to extend two years, then -- if conditions have not changed -- another two, and another 2... I hope the impression here is not that NOD is under attack. We all appreciate NOD's efforts to make formic treatment simple and safe. We do not, however, agree that approval for other uses should be curtailed in favour of only NOD's product. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:58:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Now formic and oxalic in Canada (was) Re: [BEE-L] Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> My source is very close to the CAPA, the CHC >> Chemical Comittee and PMRA >> discussions, and takes issue with the suggestion >> that these bodies intend to >> withdraw or limit the use of either formic by >> Canadian beekeepers. > > CHC Resolution #15, January 2004 requested a 2 year > sunset for C94-05. I am told that John takes issue with that statement, as do others who have been instrumental in developing formic treatments. FWIW, here is the entire text of the CHC motion mentioned in the previous article. It reads: "#15 Carried Whereas the treatments using formic acid fit within Integrated Pest Management and will be used on an immediate and long term basis. Be it resolved that the Canadian Honey Council asks the PMRA to maintain the existing C94-05 to permit using Formic Acid in beehives for a further 2 years" Please note the whereas. It mentions treatments (plural) and immediate _and_ long term prospects. I think that readers might wish to read http://www.pmra-arla.gc.ca/english/pdf/reg/reg_c9405-e.pdf for themselves. To me it seems like an intelligent document. Also, reading the posts at http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S2=bee-l&q=formic+label&s=&f=&a=&b= could be helpful in understanding the context as well. > PMRA was taking this very seriously. They actually > sent two PMRA people from Ottawa to the NOD research > sites in August 2002 to examine our protocols and > familiarize themselves with the industry. They spent > the day with us and Provincial Apiarist Doug McRory, > questioning all pesticide uses and fumigants used in > the beekeeping industry, as well as formic acid. They > went right to the trial sites, and suited up to go > into the hives. We opened bee hives for them and, > along with Alison Skinner of the OBA tech transfer > program, took them through what they were seeing. We > were then audited by a Health Canada auditor who came > down from Guelph to check out our tests sites, and > then were audited from the Research Auditors from > Revenue Canada in Ottawa and the local Revenue Canada > office here in Belleville, who again came on site, to > make sure the reports written up were valid. Over all, > just from the federal level, we had five different > experts come to make sure our trials were on the > level. It almost sounds as if NOD is stirring up trouble where there was none. I gather that emphasizing the risks and waking sleeping dogs is part of NOD's strategy to lock out competition from simple remedies. Please tell me it is not. > Mite-AwayII has the shortest varroa treatment time > frame, formic or other, and the shortest withdrawal > time. It is designed for the commercial beekeeper. > Have you read the label? Checked out the website? > www.miteaway.com Yes, I have, but that is not the question. Sometimes a full treatment as prescribed is in order, and sometimes it is not. Not everyone is using formic for varroa, either. Some want a quick hit to knock back tracheal. Others want release control and don't want to risk putting that one big hit into the hive and take chances on release. Others have a system that works for them. see Jean-Pierre's site: http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/flash.en.html. Frankly, most of us do not want a commercial formic product, or to see anyone stirring up trouble. > NOD offered to compile, submit, and do the follow up > for the OA registration on behalf of CHC, who would > remain the registrant. NOD sent in an offer to the > CHC office to do this for $20,000.00, which, if anyone > is at all familiar with what has to be done for a > pesticide registration submission would realize, > doesn't even cover off the expenses. This offer of > registration assistance should be seen as a service to > the industry, not an attempt to control or make money > off it. If CHC had accepted our offer, OA would > probably be legal for use in Canada this fall, right > now. Wonder why they did not jump at the chance? > NOD has been working in the background for the > beekeepers for the last eight years, and will continue > to do so. I hope that raising all sorts of objections to beekeepers using formic the way they have for the past ten years or so is not part of that agenda. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:11:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is it possible to go over how Canada > is handling the heavy metal side of the formic acid > treatments and what they are doing and/or how regulating, > to not worry about hive product contaminations of honey, > wax, propolis, and pollen? I recall looking at the chemical profiles of commercial formic some many years back, and concluding that the levels of contaminants in commercial formic are only slightly different from higher grades and negligible when considering the following: 1 how tiny an amount of formic is used 2 what a tiny part of the formic contaminants are 3 the long period of time between treatments 4 that it is used in the brood chamber only 5 the amount that is in the surrounding environment 6 that the formic is diluted with water that may contain the same minerals, 7 bees may carry similar amounts oif similar elements into the hive with water they gather 8 that most of the formic diffuses out of the hive 9 there is no proof that significant residues remain in the hive 10 the fact that bees consume most of the honey and pollen in the brood chamber Of course, others might reach different conclusions, depending on their assumptions and what they need to believe. Allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:18:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Subject: Re: Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks much Dave, Since I posted I have had a chance to do a bit more research. There is a site that, in book form( probably is a book book too!) that examines hive products. The book describes an oil extraction method that I will try as well as other methods requiring way more expertise and chemistry lab equipment than I will ever want. I will post the results if anyone is interested. Thanks again, Coleene > Regards & Best 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY > http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net > Temporary Conditions... Using 'PATCHY' VPN pass-through server > 2nd build > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:56:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dee Lusby wrote: Is it possible to go over how Canada is handling the heavy metal side of the formic acid treatments and what they are doing and/or how regulating, to not worry about hive product contaminations of honey, wax, propolis, and pollen? I hear that there is a difference in over the counter Formic Acid sold say vs. that for food usage or isn't this true? DEE: Our regulations and recommendations require that formic acid should be Food Grade quality. The chemical companies provides Certificate of analysis of the product including heavy metals and MSDS sheet with any product. The beekeepers' suppliers keep these information in file. These documents are examined by the Pest Management Regulatory Agency and Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA)Inspectors. Any violators are fined. As a mater of fact, one supplier was fined few years ago. The other quality is industrial grade that is not allowed for use by beekeepers. In addition, the CFIA annually analyze hundreds of samples for antibiotics residues, heavy metals and adulteration. Our beekeepers work hard to maintain the quality and they are very good in observing these regulations. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:53:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Now formic and oxalic in Canada (was) Re: [BEE-L] Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now In-Reply-To: <001201c4bba6$e1c29ed0$6ab85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, Quoting your mail: > Frankly, most of us do not want a commercial formic product, or to see > anyone stirring up trouble. Most do not wish to see a commercial formic product on the market for treatment needs , or most do not need or require a commercial formic acid product on the market for treatment needs? Presuming that you meant your comment to be interpreted as the latter phrase presented above. If this is the case - them I agree with you - if it is not the case, I disagree with you. Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:05:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Weak colonies and winter preparations In-Reply-To: <001201c4bba6$e1c29ed0$6ab85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having feed and nearly finalised colony winter preparations, I find that I have some colonies that have not taken up sufficient feed to "ensure" winter survival. These colonies produced well over the last season. Presuming absence of disease or any other debilitating condition resulting in a lack of syrup storage, what methods are there for colony combining. I have used several techniques in the passed - but due to climatic conditions, am not sure if simple "one brood box on top the other" is applicable. I do not wish to enter the brood chamber. Therefore will be unable to seek out one queen and dispatch, leaving the other heading the joined unit. But at the same time am rather reluctant just to leave the two to fight it out - that is unless advice forth coming suggests otherwise. I am talking about 10 colonies here - from different apiaries! Thanks for any comments, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:57:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Metarhizium anisopliae, formerly known as Entomophthora anisopliae Comments: To: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all: Since it was mentioned soft skin insects might not be hurt by Jim Fischer I decided to look around. It is said here: "It has been reported to infect approximately 200 species of insects and other arthropods." Wonder what these 200 species of insects are? Think I will look around! By the way, below...mosquitoes.....are they hard shell? And we are talking spiracles again for effective treatment???? Wow...... Regards, Dee A. Lusby _http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/mbcn/kyf607.html_ (http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/mbcn/kyf607.html) Metarhizium anisopliae, formerly known as Entomophthora anisopliae, is a widely distributed soil-inhabiting fungus. The first use of M. anisopliae as a microbial agent against insects was in 1879, when Elie Metchnikoff used it in experimental tests to control the wheat grain beetle, Anisoplia austriaca. It was later used to control the sugar beet curculio, Cleonus punctiventris. A member of the Hyphomycetes class of fungi, M. anisopliae is categorized as a green muscardine fungus due to the green color of the sporulating colonies. It has been reported to infect approximately 200 species of insects and other arthropods. Although M. anisopliae is not infectious or toxic to mammals, inhalation of spores could cause allergic reactions in sensitive individuals. M. anisopliae generally enters insects through spiracles and pores in the sense organs. Once inside the insect, the fungus produces a lateral extension of hyphae, which eventually proliferate and consume the internal contents of the insect. Hyphal growth continues until the insect is filled with mycelia. When the internal contents have been consumed, the fungus breaks through the cuticle and sporulates, which makes the insect appear "fuzzy." M. anisopliae can release spores (conidia) under low humidity conditions (<50%). In addition, M. anisopliae can obtain nutrition from the lipids on the cuticle. The fungus can also produce secondary metabolites, such as destruxin, which have insecticidal properties on moth and fly larvae. Some insects have developed physiological mechanisms to reduce infection by fungi such as M. anisopliae. For example, the desert locust produces antifungal toxins, which can inhibit the germination of spores. In addition, insects can escape infection by molting rapidly or developing a new integument before the fungus can penetrate the cuticle. The successful mass culture of M. anisopliae and development of methods of mass-producing infective spores has led to the commercial development of this fungus as a microbial insecticide. M. anisopliae is grown on a large scale in semi-solid fermentation-- similar to that used in the production of _Bacillus thuringiensis_ (http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/mbcn/fea207.html) --and the spores can then be formulated as a dust. The fungal spores can also be grown on sterilized rice in plastic bags for small-scale production. M. anisopliae is sensitive to temperature extremes; spore viability decreases as storage temperatures increase and virulence decreases at low temperatures. Bioblast is a commercially available formulation of M. anisopliae that is used to control termites such as Reticulitermes sp. The fungus is applied into wood known to contain active termite galleries. Termites in these galleries are exposed to direct contact with the fungus. In addition to direct contact with the fungus, infection of other termites in the colony occurs when grooming individuals exposed to the fungus spread the pathogen to healthy, non-infected individuals in the population. Laboratory studies have shown that death occurs within 4 to 10 days, depending on temperature. No other products containing M. anisopliae are currently registered, but the fungus has controlled many other insect pests in experimental trials, including Japanese beetle, black vine weevil, and mosquitoes. Sprayable formulations have been used to control meadow spittlebug on sugar cane and coffee leafminer and the froghopper, Tomaspis saccharina, in Trinidad and Grenada. M. anisopliae is highly pathogenic to many species of ticks, and is being considered as a microbial control agent for the management of ticks and Lyme disease. However, this fungus may also infect and kill beneficial organisms. In laboratory assays, the thrips predator _Orius insidiosis_ (http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/mbcn/kyf101.html) showed a high rate of susceptibility to M. anisopliae. - Raymond A. Cloyd, University of Illinois ____________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:07:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Weak colonies and winter preparations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Peter Dillon" wrote: > Having feed and nearly finalised colony winter preparations, I find that > I have some colonies that have not taken up sufficient feed to "ensure" > winter survival. These colonies produced well over the last season. You could feed fondant if you do not really want to combine them - see: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/PENotes/Fondant.htm Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 01:16:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Weak colonies and winter preparations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have used several techniques in the passed - but due to climatic > conditions, am not sure if simple "one brood box on top the other" is > applicable. That's what we used. > I do not wish to enter the brood chamber. Wise decision, IMO. Out of curiosity, what was your cutoff weight? We found about 90 lbs, including floor and lid was the lower end. Also, since the bees do not eat much feed until Feb or so, there is the chance of early feeding in March for marginal hives, but they must be watched. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 01:37:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Now formic and oxalic in Canada (was) Re: [BEE-L] Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > most do not need or require a commercial formic acid product on the > market for treatment needs? > > Presuming that you meant your comment to be interpreted as the latter > phrase presented above. Sorry. Sometimes it is hard be clear. I really do not want to disparage the NOD product because IMO it definitely has its place (niche?), but I guess I must say that the product and the process upon which it was based originally has been under repeated refinement due to some drawbacks such as trouble controlling the rate of release, the duration of the treatment, brood loss and subsequent reduction in crop, and reported inefficacy under some conditions. Maybe the current version has overcome all the difficulties. Maybe it has not. I think that I indicated elsewhere that IMO, in Canada, there is, indeed, a place for a commercial product like this, as long as it does not displace or endanger the simpler, more versatile and cheaper methods that have been proven over the years. We long ago agreed to develop many methods of formic application and to permit them to be used, subject to cautionary statements and guidance by our experts. In the States on the other hand, maybe NOD is the only answer because the beekeepers and researchers have not agreed (AFAIK) to work together to come up with methods by which beekeepers can use formic without involving a proprietary process or to accept that there is seldom any entirely safe and idiot-proof method of doing things. As it stands, the likelihood of having a serious formic incident is possibly less than the risk of being in a vehicle mishap on the way to the job, but people think the formic is dangerous and their vehicles are safe. I'm thinking that if a company got it approved and paid people to lobby and sell it, formic would be hit in the US, but we really don't have a great need for that in Canada, except for some situations where the aplication is small and/or expertise is lacking. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 02:15:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let me add several other things to my previous comments: When we used formic, it was evaporated from pads, which were discarded. 1. I do not know if the minuscule amounts of impurities documented evaporate with the formic or stay in the pad. 2. Apparently the formic dissipates from the hive fairly rapidly, leaving no measurable residue after a time. I do not know if the impurities leave with the formic, but if they are so bound with the formic that they have not been left behind to that point I wonder. Any such question is a good question. Assumptions should be tested, and sometimes in the process, we are surprised by what we learn. Also, with the rapid expansion of knowledge underway these days, what was assumed correct ten years ago may be subject to reconsideration today. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 05:21:09 -0400 Reply-To: dutchmansgold Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: dutchmansgold Subject: Re: Allergies and Canadian Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan asked for any information on bee sting allergy shots. While thankfully I don't have any personal experience, perhaps this info would help. Recently our Provincial Apiarist, Doug McRory sent an email around asking for names of Doctors who do allergy treatments, with the intent to compile a list. She and anyone out there who may have helpful info should contact him . His email address is doug.mcrory@omaf.gov.on.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Jordan" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 8:08 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Allergies and Canadian Beekeepers > Hi, > I have read up on the archives about allergies and have just a couple of > questions. > I have kept bees for almost 10 years, and this past september I had what > the CHC webpage calls a dangerous reaction that left me in the emergency > room. Natually I don't want to give up the bees and I would get allergy > shots. I was just wondering how effective they are, past experiences, and > for those Canadian beekeepers, the cost of the shots, as I don't have a > health plan that would cover them. I now carry an epi pen (which i was > shocked to find out they cost over $100 cdn) and I try even harder not to > get stung. I haven't been stung since, and wondered if this was a one time > thing or is now going to be 'normal' for me. Any advice would be great. > Susan > Ontario, Canada > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:09:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Metarhizium anisopliae formerly known as Entomophthora Anisopliae Comments: To: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all: Found some more info and am I seeing soft shelled insects again (not that bees are soft exoskelton insects) listed looks like. Regards, Dee _http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/biocontrol/pathogens/fungi.html_ (http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/biocontrol/pathogens/fungi.html) Fungi * Primary hosts: aphids, whiteflies, leafhoppers, flies, beetles, caterpillars, thrips, and mites; some beetle larvae * Key characters: reduced feeding, lethargy; dead insects swell, and may be covered with fungi * Crops: many * Commercially available: several, including antagonists of fungal disease and a product (Metarhizium anisopliae) which is used against household cockroaches Some insect species, including many pests, are particularly susceptible to infection by naturally occurring, insect-pathogenic fungi. These fungi are very specific to insects, often to particular species, and do not infect animals or plants. Fungal growth is favored by moist conditions but fungi also have resistant stages that maintain infection potential under dry conditions. Fungi have considerable epizootic potential and can spread quickly through an insect population and cause its collapse. Because fungi penetrate the insect body, they can infect sucking insects such as aphids and whiteflies that are not susceptible to bacteria and viruses. Several fungal species have potential as microbial insecticides and, in some countries, are commercially available in formulations that can be applied using conventional spray equipment. Habitat (Crops) Most crops including soybeans, greenhouse crops, vegetables, cotton, citrus, and ornamentals; also interior plantscapes and forests. An aquatic fungus infects mosquito larvae of some genera. Pests Attacked Most insect pests are susceptible to fungal pathogens. Some fungi, such as the Entomophthora and related species, are fairly specific with regard to the groups of insects affected; others, such as Beauveria, have a wider host range. Mode of Action Fungi invade insects by penetrating their cuticle or "skin." Once inside the insect, the fungus rapidly multiplies throughout the body. Death is caused by tissue destruction and, occasionally, by toxins produced by the fungus. The fungus frequently emerges from the insect's body to produce spores that, when spread by wind, rain, or contact with other insects, can spread infection. Symptoms Infected insects stop feeding and become lethargic. They may die relatively rapidly, sometimes in an upright position still attached to a leaf or stem, perhaps in an elevated location or concentrated near crop borders. The dead insect's body may be firm and "cheese-like" or an empty shell, often but not always with cream, green, red, or brown fungal growth, either enveloping the body or emerging from joints and body segments. Infected aphids can be swollen and discolored; infected root maggot flies may be clustered on shoot tips, tall grasses, or other prominent features. Relative Effectiveness Insect-pathogenic fungi usually need moisture to enable infection, and natural epizootics are most common during wet or humid conditions. The effectiveness of these fungi against pest insects depends on having the correct fungal species and strain with the susceptible insect life stage, at the appropriate humidity, soil texture (to reach ground-dwelling pest species), and temperature. The fungal spores, which can be carried by wind or water, must contact the pest insect to cause infection. Naturally occurring fungal epizootics may decimate aphid, root maggot fly, caterpillar, leafhopper, and thrips populations. They can be an important natural control of aphids in potatoes and other crops. Many insect-pathogenic fungi occur in the soil. There is evidence that application of some soil insecticides, fungicides, and herbicides can inhibit or kill these fungi. For example, even quite low concentrations of some herbicides can severely limit the germination and growth of Beauveria bassiana fungal spores in soil samples. Commercially Availability Metarhizium anisopliae is registered in the U.S. for control of household cockroaches. Beauveria bassiana Strain GHA (trade names Mycotrol GH-OF and Mycotrol GH-ES) is registered to control grasshoppers, locusts, and Mormon crickets on rangeland, improved pastures, alfalfa, corn cotton potatoes, rapeseed, safflower, small grain crops, soybeans, sugarbeets, and sunflowers. Paecilomyces fumosoroseus Apopka Strain 97 has been approved for use on ornamentals, non-food crops in greenhouses, and interiorscapes to manage whiteflies, aphids, thrips, and spider mites and is sold by Thermo Trilogy Corp. In addition, there are fungal antagonists available to combat various fungal pests. Some Common Insect-Pathogenic Fungi Entomophthora muscae infects flies. Susceptible pest species include the adults of the onion maggot, cabbage maggot, and seedcorn maggot. The fungus multiplies within the body of the adult fly which becomes enlarged; yellowish bands of fungal spores stripe the abdomen. Related species include Pandora neoaphidis, a common, naturally occurring pathogen of aphids that can be particularly effective during moist periods. Zoophthora radicans is another common fungus, with a broad host range. Strains have been isolated from several caterpillars, including diamondback moth, leafhoppers, aphids, and some weevils. Other related species infect thrips. Beauveria bassiana is an insect-pathogenic fungus found naturally on some plants and in the soil. Epizootics are favored by warm, humid weather. It is known as the white muscardine fungus because infected insect larvae eventually turn white or gray. Beauveria is used as a fungal microbial insecticide in some countries. It has an extensive host list that includes such important pests as whiteflies, aphids, grasshoppers, termites, Colorado potato beetle, Mexican bean beetle, Japanese beetle, boll weevil, cereal leaf beetle, bark beetles, lygus bugs, chinch bug, fire ants, European corn borer, codling moth, and Douglas fir tussock moth. It has even been found infecting the lungs of wild rodents, and the nasal passages of humans. Unfortunately, natural enemies, such as lady beetles, are susceptible too. One possible application method that may avoid harming beneficial insects is the use of fungus-contaminated insect baits that are attractive to pest species only. There are many different strains of the fungus that exhibit considerable variation in virulence, pathogenicity and host range. It occurs in the soil as a saprophyte. Metarhizium spp. is being tested as a natural enemy of corn rootworm, white grubs (scarabs), and some root weevils. It has a very broad host range and is extensively used in Brazil against spittle bugs in sugar cane and alfalfa. Other species of insect-pathogenic fungi have been tested as microbial insecticides for the control of pests. Verticillium lecanii is used in Europe against greenhouse whitefly and thrips and aphids, especially in greenhouse crops. Neozygites floridana has been successfully tested against spider mites, and Nomuraea rileyi has activity against green cloverworm, cabbage looper, imported cabbageworm, armyworms, corn earworm, and tobacco budworm. Hirsutella thompsonii infects mites and was previously registered for use in the United States. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 06:44:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Weak colonies and winter preparations In-Reply-To: <417F1085.9010407@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5E30358; boundary="=======DA87997=======" --=======DA87997======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5E30358; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > what methods are there for colony >combining. >Peter I have united colonies like this by drenching each with thick syrup and uniting. By the results the following spring, I would guess both queens lived. Or...why not winter each as singles on top of the inner cover of another colony. This is a great way to winter singles in the north...as long as there is a good population. Mike --=======DA87997=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:45:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Beekeeping MeritBadge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Benjamin Benavidez" " Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain the beekeeping merit badge still?". What was this system? Did it offer a badge to say children who bothered to learn a new craft? If so, did the system designers find a way to interest chidren in bees? I ask as I am about to start tutoring a school group in UK who have chosen beekeeping as one part of their programme for getting Duke of Edinburgh's Award - a scheme that has run for many years. It has taken years for the shool to add beekeeping to the options and it will be a new game. Does any one have a comparable syllabus for use on a 6 + 6 weeks @ 2 hours course with teenagers? Robin Dartington ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:15:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "allen dick" " When we used formic, it was evaporated from pads, which were discarded. I do not know if the minuscule amounts of impurities documented evaporate with the formic or stay in the pad." The issue originally raised by Dee was on contamination by heavy metals. As formic is being applied in ways that depend on evaporation, not direct contact with bees, contamination could occur only if the contaminants are volatile. Can some chemist say if heavy metals could be part of any volatile? They sound more likely to be in in a salt to someone of my ignorance. If so, and provided the pads are removed (not left to be torn up by the bees), isn't the risk of such contamination a red herring? I ask because in UK we have many beekeepers who keep only a hive or two or three and who now face restistence to Apistan. They have to learn new methods APPLICABLE TO BEEKEEPING ON SUCH SMALL SCALE. One of several problems is obtaining small quantities of organic acids for testing in their situations. Formic acid at 54% can be bought in local hardware shops in 250ml thick plastic bottles with safety tops, marked 'Kilrock-K kettle descaler'. The Materials Safety Data Sheet can be downloaded from www.kilrock.co.uk. There is no mention of anything except the acid. Questions: can such a Materials Data Sheet, published in conformity with EC Directives, be relied on to mention contaminants if present? Is formic acid available to the general public in this in other countries? Recommendations on treating hives usually suggest applying 250ml of 65% acid to pads - would 250ml of 54% work adequately provided the pad size was increased ratio 65:54, or do we need to complicate the appication by applying 250 x65/54= 300ml, a bottle and a fifth? Is this what many beekeepers are doing/have been doing ? In passing, Oust All Purpose Kettle Descaler comes as 3 x 50ml plastic sachets just in a cardboard carton - packed properly under EC Directives, so cannot be considered a great safety risk. The Data Sheet from dylon.co.uk says it consists of 50-70% lactic acid. Clearly many think using liquid formic in any way at all is an unacceptable risk. Kilrock-K has been sold to housewives for 50 years for them to open the bottle and tip the contents into their kettles, waering at best household rubber gloves. Why would emptying it onto a pad in a beehive constitute a greater risk? There is no comparison with carrying acid in open buckets at a factory. None of us yet know what alternative treatments will prove most useful in the period before resistent bees are available to all - IMHO we need all the methods available as options. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:58:24 -0400 Reply-To: info@miteaway.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "NOD Apiary Products Ltd." Subject: Re: Now formic and oxalic in Canada (was) Re: [BEE-L] Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now In-Reply-To: <001201c4bba6$e1c29ed0$6ab85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- allen dick wrote: > > It almost sounds as if NOD is stirring up trouble > where there was none. I > gather that emphasizing the risks and waking > sleeping dogs is part of NOD's > strategy to lock out competition from simple > remedies. Please tell me it is > not. Just a case of "shoot the messenger". NOD has only responded to the FA-PMRA situation, not caused or ever stirred it. They came to us in Nov. 2001 threatening to pull C94-05 unless registration took place. The PMRA "dog" has not been sleeping, and by giving an overview of the Canadian FA history at this time, when the Mite-AwayII application is in the final stages, will hopefully wake someone up who is willing to register liquid formic acid and keep it available to the Canadian industry. There are the bee suppliers, Medi-Vet, the co-ops and others that could step in. I'm sure PMRA will do their best to assist whoever comes forward, but there are processes to be followed. To anyone thinking about taking this on, go for it! > If CHC had accepted our offer, OA would > > probably be legal for use in Canada this fall, > right > > now. > Allen says: > Wonder why they did not jump at the chance? I do try to keep things short but I should have put more information here. The PMRA OA meeting was Sept.30, 2003. Heather Clay had to leave right at the end to catch a plane. Several of the rest of the industry folks stayed behind with the PMRA rep who would be in position to help work the OA registration through the registration process. When I got home I considered different ways to try to help to get OA available for 2004. NOD staff had just worked through the application process for Mite-AwayII for both PMRA and the EPA. We were in the best position, as far as I could tell, to quickly put the application together and get PMRA reviewing it. However, there was a catch. I had to know by November 30, since I estimated it would take us three months to get the data together, verified, compiled to PMRA standards, and submitted. I'm a commercial beekeeper, and come March preparing to start the season has to take first priority, plus the time frame would be too short to get it through the PMRA process for fall 2004, the goal being aimed for. CHC just didn't have time to deal with the offer. Heather Clay is always juggling a lot of high priority issues. Fall for beekeepers is very busy. The concept itself of the CHC being the registrant had to go though due process. There were no funds allocated for such a thing. Due process is to draw up a resolution for the AGM, discussion, amendments and vote, leading to: #14 Carried Be it resolved that the CHC proceed in having Oxalic Acid registered for use in Canada with MRLs Heather Clay could now officially start up the OA funding account and CHC could chart it's course for the registration process. best to all, David v ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:23:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Weak colonies and winter preparations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 27/10/04 14:17:39 GMT Daylight Time, mpalmer@TOGETHER.NET writes: <> Why do you say this? Did you ever find the two queens present together, which is the only real test I know? If you're referring to the strength of the hive the following spring, two queens in one brood nest don't produce a larger colony than one. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:26:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Weak colonies and winter preparations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have united colonies like this by drenching each with thick syrup > and uniting. By the results the following spring, I would guess both > queens lived. We never bothered with drenching. We just united them on a nice day. At this point, though, it is getting very late on the Prairies, so maybe some drenching would help. > Or...why not winter each as singles on top of the inner cover of > another colony. This is a great way to winter singles in the > north...as long as there is a good population. I have heard this recommended often, and maybe it works south of the 49th, but any time I've tried it, the bottom colony has suffered -- often to the point of being lost. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:50:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Re: Allergies and Canadian Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in the US we can get a doctor, in my case also a beekeeper, to train us to use ephedrine syringe and an ampoule. We receive a certification good for 4 years. The training consists symptom differentiation between a local vs a systemic reactions which is the deadly one, use of the ampoule and needle etc. The session lasted 1.5 hours We have had epipen delivery failures, so we opted for the syringe method. Reactions can be caused by other allergies besides bees. Reactions can lie dormant for years from many other factors, such as spiders, foods, medicines and almost anything one can think of. A member of our beekeeping group recently had a reaction and used an epipen which saved her life as she was in a remote location and alone. This gave all a dramatic wake up call. This same doctor has trained our local first responders last year and they have used it 15 times already. Not all were insect stings. If a systemic reaction occurs you have around than 20 minutes to get treatment before you start to die from shock. Many times there is a 'bounce back" 20 minutes after the initial reaction so it behooves us to have two doses. This can be costly with epipens. The ampoule containing 0.3mg of epinephene and a syringe cost me $5.60. There is enough for three shots. I actually bought 3 kits, one for my beekeeping equipment, one at home and one for my truck and keep each in an old eyeglass case. One wonders when we read of an old beekeeper "having a heart attack" while working his bees if it might have been shock? Dan Veilleux The Boone area In the Mountains of NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:50:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Formic acid at 54% can be bought in > local hardware shops in 250ml thick plastic bottles with safety tops, > marked 'Kilrock-K kettle descaler'. The Materials Safety Data Sheet > can be downloaded from www.kilrock.co.uk. There is no mention of > anything except the acid. Questions: can such a Materials Data > Sheet, published in conformity with EC Directives, be relied on to > mention contaminants if present? In a word, no. Before I proceed, here are a few URLs of interest for varying reasons: http://shop2.chemassociates.com/shopsite/Chemassoc2/PAS-formicacid.html http://www.fact-index.com/f/fo/formic_acid.html http://www.nsc.org/library/chemical/FormicAc.htm http://www.univarusa.com/assistmsds.htm http://www.univarcanada.com/ Anyhow, what would tell the tale is a Certificate of Analysis, not an MSDS. I've had trouble finding any recent COAs for formic on the web. Anyone got COA URLs for the various grades handy? > Is formic acid available to the > general public in this in other countries? Yes. > Recommendations on > treating hives usually suggest applying 250ml of 65% acid to pads - > would 250ml of 54% work adequately provided the pad size was > increased ratio 65:54, or do we need to complicate the appication by > applying 250 x65/54= 300ml, a bottle and a fifth? Is this what > many beekeepers are doing/have been doing? That is the long term application, much like what NOD is selling. There are other application methods that are more suitable to varying conditions. See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm (and choose the mite topics) IMO, 54% would work just fine. The main reason for dilution with water is to control the evaporation rate. At full strength, the formic vapours are too powerful. > In passing, Oust All Purpose Kettle Descaler comes as 3 x 50ml plastic > sachets just in a cardboard carton - packed properly under EC > Directives, so cannot be considered a great safety risk. The Data > Sheet from dylon.co.uk says it consists of 50-70% lactic acid. Lactic acid? > Clearly many think using liquid formic in any way at all is an > unacceptable risk. Kilrock-K has been sold to housewives for 50 > years for them to open the bottle and tip the contents into their > kettles, waering at best household rubber gloves. Why would emptying > it onto a pad in a beehive constitute a greater risk? There is no > comparison with carrying acid in open buckets at a factory. There are risks, but they can be mitigated by following good practices and having an ample (and redundant?) emergency supply of water at hand. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:07:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Now formic and oxalic in Canada (was) Re: [BEE-L] Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just a case of "shoot the messenger". NOD has only > responded to the FA-PMRA situation, not caused or ever > stirred it. They came to us in Nov. 2001 threatening > to pull C94-05 unless registration took place. Perhaps, perhaps not. These authorities seem to be attracted to any private party making claims. An oxalic promoter on the West coast got his wings clipped, too, by CFIA for making claims, but those doing research or responsible private treatment in consultation with provincial apiarists are left alone. I suspect that, by attempting to create a commercial product that you have raised the bar, and attracted attention to, and endangered, a tacit working agreement made between those authorities and CAPA. > CHC just didn't have time to deal with the offer... > Due process is to draw up a resolution for the AGM, > discussion, amendments and vote... True, CHC is very cumbersome, and often has trouble making good decisions for those reasons. I do definitely know about that! Personally, however, I think you are forcing the issue and bringing formic registration to the front burner by your activities, and in the process may well make it difficult for the many Canadian beekeepers who have a safe, effective, and inexpensive formic regime in place. Moreover, we know by experience that your product is not the answer for many of us in the West. Maybe we do need to work together to get a formal general registration place to allow all existing formic use, but, to date, no one has had big problems with the status quo, and everyone was careful not to rock the boat and possibly bring on overregulation. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:47:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Metarhizium anisopliae formerly known as Entomophthora Anisopliae Looking up the link that Dee gave, http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/biocontrol/pathogens/fungi.html, I noticed the statement: "Metarhizium anisopliae is registered in the U.S. for control of household cockroaches." Hmmm, perhaps once Metarhizium anisopliae is FDA registered hive roaches may no longer be a nuisance in Metarhizium anisopliae treated hives, at least for a while until they too, roaches, become resistant to the primary treatment. Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:58:08 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: [BEE-L] Weak colonies and winter preparations In-Reply-To: <003701c4bc30$fa411d80$2cb85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> This is a great way to winter singles in the > > north...as long as there is a good population. > > I have heard this recommended often, and maybe it works south of the 49th, > but any time I've tried it, the bottom colony has suffered -- often to the > point of being lost. Inner cover off, replace with a sheet of plastic. little family on without button. drill a hole as flight opening. cover on. a little family about 5 kg of feed until spring, then move the little family to a new place and give another five kg of feed. I personal use this technique to winter three spare queens on top of a strong hive. about 80% success. Danish climate about the same as British Columbia. Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility. Version 8.0.2.7 now translated into 12 languages with more to come. hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk forum = http://apimo.dk/apimo_forum e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:44:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Weak colonies and winter preparations In-Reply-To: <9f.505c018c.2eb0fb47@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7707F17; boundary="=======5A916F75=======" --=======5A916F75======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7707F17; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I would guess both queens >lived.>> > Why do you say this? > Robert Brenchley Well, yes, by strength. I united two weak two story colonies in October. The next March, they had a broodnest..in four brood boxes...that could only have been created with two queens...in my opinion. They even stored a super of something around soft maple bloom. Mike --=======5A916F75=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:07:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Weak colonies and winter preparations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 27/10/2004 05:11:34 GMT Standard Time, Peter Dillon writes: > I do not wish to enter the brood chamber. Therefore will be unable to > seek out one queen and dispatch, leaving the other heading the joined unit. > Peter, Why not? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:38:28 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now > Is it possible to go over how Canada is handling the heavy metal side > of the formic acid treatments and what they are doing and/or how > regulating, to not worry about hive product contaminations of honey, > wax, propolis, and pollen? Commercial break, bottom of the 5th, 3-0, Red Sox!!!!! (I expect to wake up at any moment to find that this is all a dream.) In regard to heavy metal contamination as a result of formic acid treatments, I don't see any basis for setting keyboards on "shrill". It is rare to find "heavy metals" liberated from anything at temperatures less than combustion temperatures, and most often, very high-temperature combustion, such as industrial processes and waste incineration at 1200 F and above. There's a reason they're called "heavy metals". They're heavy. That said, bee smokers are not regulated in the least, and the long list of toxic substances produced by smokers does include some trace amounts of heavy metals that are produced in the smoke from the combustion of smoker fuel. When one considers the frequency of smoker use as compared to the relative infrequency of formic acid exposure for any one colony, a rational person would regulate smokers long before worrying about formic acid "impurities". (Catalytic converters for smokers, anyone?) Another potential source of heavy metals in a hive would be the annoying habit bees have of collecting things like road tar as "propolis", but again, the heavy metals would stay in the "goo", and once again, would have a very hard (dare I say "impossible"?) time getting "into" the honey from this source. jim ("History" is the litany of things which could have been avoided had we been more careful) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:48:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Weak colonies and winter preparations In-Reply-To: <417F1085.9010407@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2A2A4EEA; boundary="=======15E88E2=======" --=======15E88E2======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2A2A4EEA; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >Having feed and nearly finalised colony winter preparations, I find that >I have some colonies that have not taken up sufficient feed to "ensure" >winter survival. These colonies produced well over the last season. Peter We've just finished feeding here in Vermont. Talking with a friend, and comparing notes, we both agree...it is easy to tell the colonies which are in trouble because they won't take up their syrup. Whether it is because the colony is weak, has queen problems, or is severely mite infested...the results seem to be the same. The colony won't take up their syrup. I have little mating nucs, four frame nucs, 10 frame nucs, and full sized colonies....all take syrup with no problem. All except those with problems. Perhaps you should look a little deeper into the situation. Mike --=======15E88E2=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:09:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: Entomopathogenic Fungi--Metarhizium anisopliae In-Reply-To: <200410280400.i9S3kLhU002514@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: Entomopathogenic Fungi--Metarhizium anisopliae There are a couple of aspect s of Metarhizium anisopliae (& the group of entomopathogenic fungi--a group of fungi found to infect insects) not spelled out in Dee's list of articles. Different strains have varying virulence against different families of insects (lepidoptera, coleoptera, hymenoptera, etc. Second these fungi are often very effective in a controlled setting but can have variable response because of changing environmental conditions during field evaaluation which makes it a challenge for commercial development. Lets start with strains--My guess is that the Metarhizium anisopliae strain selected for mite control has very little effect on honeybee's. Same species ( as far as scientist can tell) but different strains have a profoundly differing effect on differing families of insect. For example I'm currently working with a strain of entomopathogenic fungi that is very effective on a beetle, quite effective on a moth but will not touch a looper. Go figure! Genetic screening may lead to better information on why this is so. I can select (from the ARSEF culture collection, http://www.ppru.cornell.edu/mycology/ARSEF_Culture_Collection.htm) strains that have been found on specific species of insects that are ineffective against others in the same family. This can be exploited, tested for in the lab, selected for. So the specific strain selected for mite control probably has little to no effect against the Honeybee. Number two--These fungi are very sensitive to environmental conditions, particularly temperature & relative humidity. Again laboratory screening & selection can fine tune final selection of a safe & effective strain to be commercially developed to target a specific insect (or mite in this case). Safety to concurrent non-target or beneficial insects is always done prior to roll out. You could not develop a product that is shown to kill what you are trying to protect. Sometimes the actual site of effect is the separator. For example, If a fungus only works at cool temperature, say 20 degrees, probably will not be a threat to a colony of bees where the internal temperature is well above that, in effect thermally neutralizing the fungus. However, one concern might be--but again this will be screened for, this strain must operate where the mites are which is in a hive at a fairly warm temperature (by fungal standards) and might be of concern if M. a. were to slightly infect honeybees. Overall these fungi are very family specific, very safe ( hey I've screened hundreds in the lab and never gotten sick) and I hope it works. We need a diversity of tools to help beekeepers. As I have seen it it looks like it would be great if it could be rolled out as a traditional biocontrol. By this I mean that the beekeeper could spread out the pathogen once and the fungus would remain present slowly killing mites ever after. However it would probably need to be an ameliorative release where spores would be spread periodically more like an insecticide--in this case a mycoinsecticide. However after a good number of years of working with entomopathogens leads me to a pragmatic view- If Metarhizium anisopliae can be developed as a control it will not be a silver bullet. It will be another tool in our arsenal. It may work well sometimes at others it may not. IT may be difficult to come by as a commercial product--many companies producing & selling fungal pathogens as registered control agents have not survived long ($$$) and finally there may be some dust--fungal spore contamination issues, pollen collectors may not want to dust, and there may be some weird microbial balance disruptions because once you add something to a biotic system things change. Mike Griggs http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:45:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Weak colonies and winter preparations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: >Having feed and nearly finalised colony winter preparations, I find that I have some colonies that have not taken up sufficient feed to "ensure" >winter survival. These colonies produced well over the last season. If these were your high population colonies from the season I would suspect a problem like varroa. Mike said: We've just finished feeding here in Vermont. Talking with a friend, and comparing notes, we both agree...it is easy to tell the colonies which are in trouble because they won't take up their syrup. I agree. The exception in my opinion is when you use migratory tops and only slide the top enough to expose the feeder to fill. Robbing is not uncommon when you have got strong hives. I always find a few which have been robbed which leaves the feeder empty. Not a big deal but something I see. I am afraid the first thing my hives would do when the fall flow ends is rob out Mikes nucs if close by. The problem only seems to present itself in late fall. I have moved all hives from the home yard to protect my valuable breeder queens but will bring back when fall ends and the robbing impulse stops. What can I say my bees will steal honey for winter. Even from hives with reduced entrances. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:37:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Overwintering singles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Or...why not winter each as singles on top of the inner cover of > another colony. This is a great way to winter singles in the > north...as long as there is a good population. I have heard this recommended often, and maybe it works south of the 49th, but any time I've tried it, the bottom colony has suffered -- often to the point of being lost. I have had no problems with overwintering two-4 frame nucs on top of strong hives. HOWEVER, it is a must to give the lower colony lots of ventilation. I use a 1/2" opening across the entire width of the top box of the lower hive. I also have no difficulty overwintering singles packed with corn syrup. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:43:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now Hi Guys, It's a wise precaution to know what is going into our hives. But the environment is much more contaiminated that most think. Out west, everything is concentrated around water resources. And so were the smelters, industry, agriculture and the pollution they produce. A few notable exeptions exist concerning our countries nuclear production and testing. Not much is said about the contaimination resulting from hundreds of nuclear tests. But it's certainly measureable and has been distributed over a very wide area. I was involved, for over a decade, in cleaning up these kind of sites. And many of the contaiminates, including the heavy ones, are concentrated by plants. And a few studies have show that they are also concentrated in beehives. Some have suggested that hives be used to qualitatively monitor environmental change. Sometimes I think it's easy to focus on only the parameters we control by what we put into our hives. But it would be interesting to see what the big picture is really like. Then, effective management practices could be used, if necessary, to reduce the contaiminates inside the hive. Regards Dennis Having wondered how healthy propolis is when harvested from supers and lids painted 40 years ago with "white" paint. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:07:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Overwintering singles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Lloyd and others, Not having tried it myself, I have a question regarding placing nucs/singles over strong colonies. I assume the goal is to transfer some of the heat from the strong colony to the colony/colonies above. If the strong colony has a 1/2" full-width upper opening, wouldn't the temperature there be just about equal to ambient? How does this benefit the nucs/single? I'd reason you might as well leave them on their own stands. Thanks, Waldemar LI, NY =================================== I have heard this recommended often, and maybe it works south of the 49th, but any time I've tried it, the bottom colony has suffered -- often to the point of being lost. I have had no problems with overwintering two-4 frame nucs on top of strong hives. HOWEVER, it is a must to give the lower colony lots of ventilation. I use a 1/2" opening across the entire width of the top box of the lower hive. I also have no difficulty overwintering singles packed with corn syrup. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:21:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some time ago, someone told what to use to remove propolis from the floor. Does anyone know what to use? Lionel ------------------------------------------------- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by PCLNET, and is believed to be clean. Visit www.pclnet.net and get a 3Mbps cable modem! ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:34:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In reviewing recent discussion here and where the topic has gone, I realise that, perhaps I need to clarify my original intent when i wrote: > Some of us were talking last year about getting motions passed at the > AHPA and ABF meetings to get formic and oxalic approved for use the > USA. Somehow, the idea came to nothing, and now, it is looking like a > fumble that could lose the game for many. I appreciated NOD's contributions, because it illustrates that there are numerous perspectives to the topic, and how the development of commercial product or products a situation can compete with and threaten non-proprietary applications using generic products. Speaking very generally, the claims that developers of branded products need to make to differentiate themselves and to justify their 'value added' to what are often really commodity items, intentionally raise concerns in prospective customers, and the public, and can alarm regulators. Marketers and developers of new processes typically emphasize safety, efficacy, and convenience in their own products, and, even if they do not intentionally denegrate the alternatives, this strong emphasis on the desirable properties of their product or process (even if they are marginal advantages) raises doubt about competing products or processes in the minds of listeners. The strong emphasis on safety, convenience, and efficacy, true or not, necessarily implies -- human psychology being what it is -- the lack of these characteristics in competing concepts or products. Otherwise, the listener thinks, why would anyone mention them? Few really bother to check the facts, and most go along with what is most familiar. Since the promoter invests money and time into promotion, while others may not bother, we wind up with the best promoted product, and not necessarily the best product. I'm writing this on a Windows(r) computer, and I think that amply proves my point. Anyhow, back to the original point: My friends who were discussing AHPA and ABF motions were not looking for a commercial sponsor, but thinking more along the lines of how formic and oxalic have been used in Canada and Europe and hoping that such use could be permitted -- or at least not prosecuted -- in the US. In actual fact, it very much appears that the several attempts to come up with a commercial formic product in the US, which have failed, have distracted the industry from what it really needs: a go-ahead to use the products as they are used safely and successfully elsewhere in the world. That's where the motion came in: We think that the ABF and AHPC each must make it an official policy to work towards obtaining official approval -- or at least official indifference -- for (at least temporary) beekeeper use of formic and oxalic, without having that approval tied to any proprietary product. Let's hope, for the sake of the bees -- an the almond industry -- that something makes people wake up and see that beekeepers need to do this for themselves. It CAN be done. Of course there are those who can make very powerful arguments that it cannot, but if they get onside and turn their minds and their writing skills to the job and prove of why it CAN be done, instead of wasting effort proving why it cannot happen, everyone will benefit. After all, the US bee industry has put up the funds and willpower for countervail, and created the NHB. I cannot believe that thay cannot manage to get approval for at least some generic formic and oxalic applications. I'm sure that the almond people would put up some bucks and pull some strings. Anyhow, it is really not my business. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:38:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now In-Reply-To: <200410281940.i9SFrVbq020852@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday 28 October 2004 03:21 pm, Lionel wrote: > Some time ago, someone told what to use to remove propolis from the floor. > Does anyone know what to use? Well alcohol is the best safest substance. Turpentine works too, but its not so safe. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:29:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar said 'If the strong colony has a 1/2" full-width upper opening, wouldn't the temperature there be just about equal to ambient? How does this benefit the nucs/single?' I don't know just how much heat passes up to the colonies above, but I think it has to be some. There is no cover, as such, on the deep colonies. Instead, the bottom board of the nucs serves as the cover (3/8" plywood), with blocks at the front corners for ventilation of the colony below. Since the bottom board of the nucs extends beyond the entrance by 3 inches, the opening to the lower hive is not directly exposed to cross winds. Perhaps some of the heat goes through the plywood. I don't think the R factor can be more than .5. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:56:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Lionel" asked: > Some time ago, someone told what to use to remove propolis from the floor. > Does anyone know what to use? > Washing soda, 1kg : 5 litres water, plus a dash of washing up liquid. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:15:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Entomopathogenic Fungi--Metarhizium anisopliae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike & All, Thanks for the posting. > there may be some weird > microbial balance disruptions because once you add something to a > biotic system things change. > This is exactly one of the main concerns of those beekeepers who use organic method and try to keep bees as natural as humanly possible. To change the balance by creating an imbalance within the hive and colony will do irreversible damage. We must move slowly and carefully with this stuff. There are other non-intrusive methods of controlling mites, this is what we should be discussing. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:30:45 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the thread on wintering small colonies Peter Edwards suggested using = fondant, and gave some links to webpages on using fondant, and what = fondant is. If I understand correctly, the fondant is "candied" at a temperature = higher than boiling. But I have always thought that scorched honey from = a wax melter was bad for bees because at that temperature some sugar is = caramelized and this is hard on the bees, especially in winter when they = cannot fly regularly. What am I misunderstanding here? Stan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:47:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: overwintering nucs A couple of years ago, I set a smaller hive on top of a larger hive separated by a 3/8 inch sheet of plywood. One of those combination indoor/outdoor thermometers was hung on the outside of the hive with its probe laid on top of the plywood sheet. The temperature from the inside probe read just about the same as the outside air temperature. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:26:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Just a tidbit about Formic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis92/apjul92.htm#3 Click on Extender Patties & Formic Acid to get to the pertainent parts. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:39:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: Weaver Buckfast.] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Waldemar, I like Buckfast because they build up fast in Spring but not as intense = as Carniolans. I've had colonies prepare to swarm about the same time as = The Italians. There was discussion a year or two ago about Weaver had = not had semen imported from Buckfast Abbey in some time, while the = Canadian Buckfast Producers had, as recently as last year. If You try = Buckfast I wish You success. Garry Libby=20 Attleboro, MA, U.S.A. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:46:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A couple of years ago, I set a smaller hive on top of a larger hive > separated by a 3/8 inch sheet of plywood. One of those combination > indoor/outdoor thermometers was hung on the outside of > the hive with its probe laid on top of the plywood sheet. The > temperature from the inside probe read just about the same as the > outside air temperature. That's right, and putting one hive on top of another makes checking the bottom hive difficult, plus it means that the bottom hive gets no top insulation, and if any part of winter wrap matters, top insulation is it. Moreover, bees will tend to drift up to the top hive in spring, sometimes depleting it somewhat. In my opinion any real boost the top hive gets is from being up, off the cold ground -- especially if the hives are in a dip or on a flat spot where a hive is close to the ground, like a single, will suffer compared to hives where the cluster is higher up, like doubles and triples. The same effect can be had by rigging a high stand, or, as we did, placing the single on a dummy hive. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::