From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:35:36 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489C64806E for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEFvLA013111 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0501A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Status: RO Content-Length: 50963 Lines: 1188 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:37:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond pollination Comments: To: lloyd@rossrounds.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd asks: I was just told by a customer in Idaho that he signed a 2005 pollination contract at $100 a hive! Any confirmation of that? I would love to see a copy of the fine print of the contract? We had an offer of $100 for double deep hives with eleven frame of bees and keeping the hives for orange before shipping back. Of course eleven frames is impossible for us to meet *on average* so when looked at and frames of bees averaged the price would be back in the $50 & up range. Small growers always offer higher prices to attract beekeepers but most large growers are below $70 this year I HAVE BEEN TOLD. Many Almond growers are hiring local beekeepers to check *out of state* hives for frames of bees this year which we never had a problem with before as they realize many weak hives (and deadouts) will try to be used this year to polinate Almonds. Many growers are wanting written pollination contracts this year which we never had to do before. Not to protect the beekeeper but the grower. Blueberries in Maine offer a higher price for stronger hives but the price always drops with Tony's average. Lloyd asks: I wonder what that will mean to East Coast pollination, where the going migratory rate for apples has been stuck at $35 for as many years as I can remember, and Maine blueberries have been going at $45-$50? Supply & demand is the reason for the higher price for Almond pollination. Period. In our Midwest area: As long as beekeepers are willing to under cut the competition then growers will take advantage of the beekeeper. Every year an out of state beekeeper will undercut a pollination bid in our area. Then when the bees do not do the job our phone rings. All the growers know the price goes up when our bees are brought in to pollinate *if* the out of state beekeeper brings in weak hives or nucs instead of hives. Last year the out of state beekeeper was using an old jeep with a forklift mast. The harmonic balancer flew off and went through the radiator. Our phone rang to save the day. Several years ago 450 hives (another beekeeper) were brought from Texas to pollinate an orchard we pollinated the year before but lost the bid by trying to raise the fee by a couple bucks a hive.. A desperate grower called as the Texas bees were barely flying. We looked at the hives (really nucs) and they barely had enough bees to cover the brood. The temp was too low for the bees to leave the brood. Not rocket science. Again we saved both the Texas beekeeper & the grower by bringing in hives so strong many were ready to were swarm as they had been building up in pollination in California the week before. Now that honey prices are sinking fast ( like a rock!) then many beekeepers will look again at pollination. It is interesting as I was told by a California Almond grower if Midwest beekeepers stopped coming to pollinate Almonds in order to make a honey crop instead they would never pollinate Almonds in California again! Not in 2005! Bob Happy New year to All! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:22:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew W." Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Lloyd Spear" >I was just told by a customer in Idaho that he signed a 2005 pollination > contract at $100 a hive! Any confirmation of that? From: "Lloyd Spear" >I was just told by a customer in Idaho that he signed a 2005 pollination > contract at $100 a hive! Any confirmation of that? There's a fellow in California (whom I spoke to & confirmed, VP of Ca Bee Assoc.) signed 1000 8-frame singles for $100/ea. What's interesting about the arrangement is he gauranteed four(!) frames of bees as the minimum. Lyle Johnston (pres. of American Honey Producers Assoc.) was asked recently by a grower, "can't you beekeepers make money at $60/hive for pollination?" & answered with "like the almond market, pollination is set by supply & demand; same as when growers raised prices on almonds from $.84(cents) /pd to $2.85/pd in three years". Many beekeepers are eyeing 10-frame singles as the way to provide enough coverage for the growing almond demand. This morning there was word someone from Washington State found contracts at $150/ hive. With over a month away from the drop-dead date for almond pollination there will surely be alot of interesting stories shaking out. The rise in price has also spurred theft of beehives. With CA mite resistance, theft & increased transportation charges there are plenty of variables to think about before sending your bees out for hire but certainly the opportunity has become more attractive. Matthew Westall - E-Bees - Castle Rock, CO -thinking it's been a mild winter so far for Colorado. 3 months :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:44:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Almond pollination In-Reply-To: <001901c4efa0$50b547c0$6501a8c0@ecapital83wvji> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6F08AC9; boundary="=======11626A35=======" --=======11626A35======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6F08AC9; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Lyle Johnston (pres. of American Honey Producers Assoc.) was asked recently >by a grower, "can't you beekeepers make money at $60/hive for pollination?" Well? What's the answer? Can a beekeeper make money pollinating almonds at $60/colony. Or apples in the northeast at $35. Or Blueberries in Maine at $50? I quit pollinating apples in the northeast at $35. Even with honey prices at $.80/lb, I felt I was losing money. Pollinators make a super less honey...that's $25. And then there's all the extra work getting the bees ready, and moving in and out, and damage to equipment, and extra help to hire. With our short season in Northern Vermont/New York, pollinating apples at $35 is not economical. And what about Maine Blueberries? The bees really took a beating last year on the Blueberry barrens, and many were too weakened to make a honey crop later in the season. The pollination check looks great early in the season...if you haven't managed your finances well, but for me...pollinating is a losing proposition. Mike --=======11626A35=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:20:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Formic acid seminar Comments: cc: JoTraynor@aol.com In-Reply-To: <000901c4d86d$85be69a0$d80c0a3e@max> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A note for those in Southern California: Bill Ruzicka will give a formic acid seminar in Escondido at 9:30 AM, Mon. Jan. 10th at the Farm Bureau Bldg. 1670 E. Valley Pkwy. (Pkwy exit off I-15). Alan Mikolich is in charge of this; you can contact Alan at (909)261-6710 in case of any last-minute change in scheduling. Admission charge is $10 to help cover Bill's costs. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind * is reason. * Thomas Paine, 1794 ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:16:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, it seems the growers are looking around, alright. Everywhere. Even Canada. I just got a call from a guy in California saying he is "looking for about 1500 hives - minimum 6 frames. " This guy will be at the Reno meeting, looking for supplies. (BTW, I'll be there too, but just to keep up with things, and I'll be in Tucson, too). Seems APHIS closed the US border to a potential supply of pollination bees from Canada just before the emergency arose. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 07:36:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew W." Subject: Re: Almond pollination Comments: cc: mpalmer@TOGETHER.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Michael Palmer" >>Lyle Johnston (pres. of American Honey Producers Assoc.) was asked >>recently >>by a grower, "can't you beekeepers make money at $60/hive for >>pollination?" > > Well? What's the answer? Can a beekeeper make money pollinating almonds at Hi Michael, I'm sure you implied but felt your point might be missed -- The answer to that question is of course different for every beekeeper. Lyle has moved to California and pretty happy with the increase in pollination fees (last week signing some at $75 & $80). Lyle still moves bees to Colorado & we have a late season on everything from weeds to produce, allowing plenty of time to manipulate bees up to speed for honey. Some areas won't 'start' producing until August with thistle/knapweed, sometimes alfalfa. So the answer for Colorado is you can make money from both pollination/honey provided other risks are contained --- mites, theft, shipping... The answer for me? I'm not pushing bees to California this year. With recent hands-on experience with Apistan-resistant mites from 100 packages purchased from California last spring ('03), I'm keeping the remainder of my apiary spared until a better mite treatment is closer to market. You're guaranteed to share mites along with every other disease. So I'll leave my apiary where they sit until we have better tools (on the market!) to ensure their survival. (fungus in late fall???). I'm sure I'm not alone with that thinking. -------------------- as a side note --- Something I hadn't noticed before -- It's not the 'new' packages (w/new mites) that were so much at risk but instead the surrounding full size hives which mites transferred. With our greatest honey season in 10(+, perhaps ever) everything worked perfectly for those mites to take down bursting '3-deeps in brood' hives within a couple months. I haven't seen that kind of devastation since ~'95/'96. Seems there would be room to test the cycles (mite vs. bees) somewhere as the results at these out-apiaries were predictable ---- mite damage everywhere but the older hives with 10-100x larger brood were the first to fall. All were queened with Sue's NWC work. Or maybe Sue's newer queens are that much more groomed for hygienic behavior? Regardless, those 'imported' California mites have added a huge cost to beekeeping here in Colorado. Definitely a cost to consider if you throw your bees to almonds. Matthew Westall - EBees - Castle Rock, CO :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 10:44:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew said: So I'll leave my apiary where they sit until we have better tools (on the market!) to ensure their survival. (fungus in late fall???). I'm sure I'm not alone with that thinking. Matthew has made an excellent point and perhaps the main concern of Midwest beekeepers. Matthew said: With our greatest honey season in 10(+, perhaps ever) everything worked perfectly for those mites to take down bursting '3-deeps in brood' hives within a couple months. I haven't seen that kind of devastation since ~'95/'96. I have talked about these super mites before on Bee-L. They are not a figment of beekeepers imaginations researchers! Until you experience these varroa first hand you have a hard time understanding. I have! Researchers are reacting slow to our claims but I have seen these varroa all summer. They came into Missouri (my opinion) from California Almond pollination. They are in my partners yards but he bought a wrecked load of Texas bees and several other operations out so hard to tell exactly the source. Through my extensive testing these varroa are NOT in my yards so far. In his yards Apistan, checkmite and ApiLife var did not control these varroa. Purvis Brothers survivor queens and the Russian bees did in many cases turn the situation around but reinfestation from crashing hives was a big problem. My opinion: I believe these super mites were created by beekeepers using illegal treatments which were ineffective. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 10:22:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Mike asks: Well? What's the answer? Can a beekeeper make money pollinating almonds at $60/colony. All beekeeping is local and situations vary. I can not imagine why a California beekeeper would not pollinate almonds. I can see why a Florida beekeeper would have concerns. A pollination at a time when when his main honey production and build up to period is not effected is always of interest to the beekeeper. I have decided to write an article for the bee magazine about the pro's and con's of Almond pollination from the Midwest beekeepers persepective. The pitfalls are many. Mike said: I quit pollinating apples in the northeast at $35. Even with honey prices at $.80/lb, I felt I was losing money. Pollinators make a super less honey...that's $25. Again all beekeeping is local. I have seen bees come out of Almonds & apples so strong they are ready to swarm *and* also weak and starving needing feed. The chance you take in any pollination. Especially agriculture crops which require a large number of hives and produce little nectar. Every year is different which is a big part of the problem. Apple pollination in our area effects spring work but because in our situation only a percentage of hives are used we check those hives first before apple pollination and work the apple polliantion hives last after the rest of the hives are worked. Mike said: And then there's all the extra work getting the bees ready, and moving in and out, and damage to equipment, and extra help to hire. I believe Mike has said he is not migratory. If so then I understand completely. Moving bees in cool weather is a easy job for my partner and myself. The two of us move hundreds of bees each night without incident. The work is boring for me (partly because my partner is instantly asleep the minute the truck starts moving) .The hours long but moving bees is the easiest part of our beekeeping work. Between us are decades of bee hive moving which makes the work go smoother. Both my partner and I move whole loads of hives by ourselves during the regular season. Both of us feel working alone at night using equipment is dangerous but the job is accomplished easily *in our situation*by a single person. We do the long haul pollination jobs together to keep down fatigue problems. Mike said: And what about Maine Blueberries? The bees really took a beating last year on the Blueberry barrens, and many were too weakened to make a honey crop later in the season. The problem is not as great for local Blueberry pollination beekeepers as they can check on hives and feed etc. but is huge for out of state beekeepers. Another problem with Maine Blueberries is the pollination comes at a time of peak honey production in the Midwest. Fees would have to be higher on Maine Blueberries to interest most Midwest beekeepers but not Florida beekeepers as not *in most instances* a big honey production time in Florida. Mike said: The pollination check looks great early in the season...if you haven't managed your finances well, but for me...pollinating is a losing proposition. Pollinating is many times a losing proposition but creates cash flow many times at a time when cash flow is low. At times hives overflowing with brood and bees from pollination is a big plus. Beekeeping is a gamble. The big plus for pollination is the fact you know you are going to collect payment. Honey production can be like commercial fishing. All signs you will harvest a big crop of fish are around. The weather is perfect and the wind is from the right direction but when you return to collect the fish the nets/baskets are all but empty! Happens in beekeeping also at times when you return to pick up supers! Sincerely, Bob Harrison I come from a commercial fishing family on my fathers side. Only one family member now remains a commercial fisherman. His son is not interested in becoming a fisherman and mine is not interested in becoming a beekeeper. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:45:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have talked about these super mites before on Bee-L. They are not a > figment of beekeepers imaginations researchers! Until you experience these > varroa first hand you have a hard time understanding. I have! Researchers > are reacting slow to our claims but I have seen these varroa all summer. I'm wondering about these mites. Do they build up faster than the normal mites, or is it just that they do not respond to treatment? My understanding has been that reasonably clean packages should not need treatment the first year. How is it that they could collapse themselves and adjacent hives the first year? Or were the packages carrying a heavy load on arrival? allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:00:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Thermocouple arrays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In response to Dave Cushman's query about thermocouple arrays Robert Hegerberg responded: "This may be what you're looking for... This http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm is a great site about hive temperatures with more information than I care to try to digest. Be sure to click on the various hypertext links (Figure 1, etc.) to see the various diagrams. The results of this study are based on a total of 1,200,000 temperature readings made from 1,600 to 2,000 thermocouple installations." :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:46:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: thermocouples in hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi: BIggest trials of this type were many years back in hives in the midwest. Trying to decide whether to wrap, not wrap, etc. Lots of hives, lots of temp probes, so many that one sees pictures of meters showing the current draw. Some decisions were made, but to the best that I could find out, the investigator had no real means of dealing with the data -- hundreds of thermometers, but had to average the output. This isn't a trivial issue -- its one that took us some time, even considering modern day computers, A/D setups, etc. Five years ago, it was time consuming, today its a snap. Robert Madsen, the Science Instructor at Dull Knife Community College (its a Native American Tribal college in eastern MT) has been coming to Missoula with a group of students for the last 5 years, working on temp regulation in hives outfitted with temperature probes (one per every inch of space). Its two months per summer, so its taking a bit of time -- but the 3-d movies of temp changes are something to see. Anyway, he was hopeful that last summer would answer some critical questions, provide enough information to write a good article. Bottom line, much of what we thought was happening inside bee hives ISN'T. That's why its taking so long -- better information changed the paradigm, which in turn generated a lot more questions that had to be answered. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:50:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: modern tech for bee management, bees and pesticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All, I will be at both of the National Meeting -- Tucson and Reno. I've been asked to coordinate a group purchase of RadioFrequency I.D. tags by commercial beekeepers for beehive marking/recovery. I'll also address current state of the art with respect to handheld readers -- the request came from AHPA. We'll have a Table at AHPA -- come by, we'd like your input about what the industry needs to more economically manage bees and we want to get better documentation of pesticides issues -- no less that 3 major litigations ongoing in U.S. by commercial beekeepers. If you want to sign on to a group buy of RFID chips, let us know. Current price, about 40 cents per chip, will go down if we can order 50,000 or more. Thanks Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:17:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Super varroa. [Was: Almond pollination] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain With all this talk about super mites from California, is there risk in buying queens from California breeders this spring? These super mites could arrive on attendant bees. Regards, Waldemar Long Island, NY > I have talked about these super mites before on Bee-L. They are not a > figment of beekeepers imaginations researchers! Until you experience these > varroa first hand you have a hard time understanding. I have! Researchers > are reacting slow to our claims but I have seen these varroa all summer. I'm wondering about these mites. Do they build up faster than the normal mites, or is it just that they do not respond to treatment? My understanding has been that reasonably clean packages should not need treatment the first year. How is it that they could collapse themselves and adjacent hives the first year? Or were the packages carrying a heavy load on arrival? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:53:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: thermocouples in hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you doing any work on winter clusters? Things may be very different in your climate with your bees, but I'm beginning to wonder whether, in theUK at least, the traditional winter brood break really happens at all. I think there may be intermittent short breaks, but what seems to happen is that there is a small amount of brood present for much of the winter, perhaps most of it. But its hard to be sure, as I don't want to open hives in cold weather. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:46:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: thermocouples in hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry and all First may I say thanks to all of those that that gave me information offlist, it is refreshing to know that so many knew the details, but I am also pleased that the list was not clogged up with the replies. Now specifically to Jerry's post... > but the 3-d > movies of temp changes are something to see I reckon you can guess my next question :-) How can I access or gain a copy of such video ? My reason is simple, we have the opportunity to organise some co-operative research in UK and Ireland (and possibly wider afield) based on the 'Irish List', and are at present discussing what topic would be the most useful to pursue. The most likely candidate at the moment is a study of brood rearing during what are considered 'winter months' (which in turn would give us information about windows for dribbling acid treatment). > Bottom line, much of what we thought was happening inside bee > hives ISN'T. That's why its taking so long -- better information > changed the paradigm, which in turn generated a lot more questions > that had to be answered. Exactly why we wish to look deeper, most of what we think we know about this subject is either conjecture or thoughts handed down over generations without being properly checked. Regards and Best 73s, Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net 'Fall Back', build 4.6 (almost stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:05:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: thermocouples in hives In-Reply-To: <005401c4f23a$0b47db20$0400000a@fallback> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dave, we haven't done any over-wintering work in Montana -- I can vouch that there is no brood in the boxes when its minus 40+ degrees F. We did run multiple hives with 3-5 temp probes in hives in Maryland, year round. Have to revisit the data, its been nearly 8 years. One tip, thermal regulation reflects hive reproductive status. In the warm/growing season, the hives maintain very constant temperature, if brood is present. In very cold weather, bees also tightly regulate temperature in the middle of the cluster. However, if the queen stops laying in mild weather, the colony will slack off on temp control. While eggs are present, the colony still does a good job of temp control. Soon as eggs are gone, bees will ease up a bit. When both eggs and larvae are gone, the colony gets even looser in its temp control. No brood, and the colony tends to reflect ambient temp -- little or no thermal regulation. Jerry At 01:46 AM 1/4/2005, you wrote: >Hi Jerry and all > >First may I say thanks to all of those that that gave me information >offlist, it is refreshing to know that so many knew the details, but I am >also pleased that the list was not clogged up with the replies. > >Now specifically to Jerry's post... > > > but the 3-d > > movies of temp changes are something to see > >I reckon you can guess my next question :-) >How can I access or gain a copy of such video ? > >My reason is simple, we have the opportunity to organise some co-operative >research in UK and Ireland (and possibly wider afield) based on the 'Irish >List', and are at present discussing what topic would be the most useful to >pursue. The most likely candidate at the moment is a study of brood rearing >during what are considered 'winter months' (which in turn would give us >information about windows for dribbling acid treatment). > > > Bottom line, much of what we thought was happening inside bee > > hives ISN'T. That's why its taking so long -- better information > > changed the paradigm, which in turn generated a lot more questions > > that had to be answered. > >Exactly why we wish to look deeper, most of what we think we know about this >subject is either conjecture or thoughts handed down over generations >without being properly checked. > > >Regards and Best 73s, Dave Cushman G8MZY >http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net >'Fall Back', build 4.6 (almost stable) > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:23:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Change of Travel Plans, Tucson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All, I had to cancel my trip to Tucson this morning (ouch, I paid some steep penalties this morning). I'm going to try to reach Joe Traynor/Steve Park at AHPA. We'll try to get a PDA-based RFID reader and tags to them by Fed Exp., so for anyone interested in using radio frequency identification tags and a reader (compatible with the HP iPAQ pocket PCs [pda]) for equipment marking, theft recovery -- talk to them, or contact me directly. I demonstrated these tags last year, but at that time, the tags were twice the cost and hand-held readers were not available. A warehouse reader/scanner connected to a notebook computer was the only system available then. That has changed with the advent of hand held PDA readers and tag prices about 40 cents (small orders). If we can round up enough takers to buy 50,000 tags; we can drive the tag cost down. This is the same system as being used by WalMart for inventory control. These tags are like bar codes on steroids. You can bury them in the boxes, frames, combs. You can read them from 10 ft with the little PDA system. Each tag has a unique identifier code. The tags don't fade, wear out, etc. There's been a lot of misinformation about these tags. They contain the same type of information as an optically scanned bar code. They only respond when within range of a reader. You can lock the information on the tags, and its unlikely that anyone is going to crack the locking code. They don't spy on anyone, collect data, or transmit on their own. I've hammered on the tags (literally, using a claw hammer), dunked them, they are tough. Can you defeat them -- well with a lot of time, energy, knowledge, and the right equipment (and you'd still have to do it hive by hive, or even frame by frame (depends on how many chips in the beehive)? These tags are small, but the antennae takes some space, so you CAN't stick them on a bee. There is an industrial grade, hand held reader available, but its still very pricey >$3-4k. We'll work get information and a sign up sheet to Joe/Steve for distribution at the AHPA meeting. Our goal is to get a list of beekeepers, numbers of tags and readers needed, combine the list from AHPA and ABF (now there's a thought - coorperation -- sorry, couldn't resist, aren't politics wonderful), and order up a bunch of tags and some readers. I still intend to be in Reno next week. Sorry about the change of plans -- if anyone sees Joe or Steve today, ask them to call me (if they haven't already) 406-544-9007 Thanks Hate to miss a good meeting. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 21:06:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Oxalic Acid Solution Spraying. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Can someone direct me to good web sites with information on OA solution spraying (as opposed to OA dribbling/trickling)? I'd like to learn about the technique. Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:37:43 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Temps inside hive in winter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, you said "No brood, and the colony tends to reflect ambient temp -- little or no thermal regulation." Do you mean this? At 40F below? How about at 10F below? Lots of implications if there is little to know thermal regulation at these temps. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:36:39 +0100 Reply-To: d.schuerer@confidentia.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dieter_Sch=FCrer=2C_Confidentia?= Subject: AW: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid Solution Spraying. In-Reply-To: <20050104.130649.11102.176356@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Here is a good pdf on the spraying of OA, but it is in German. Perhaps you could get an English version at the author. http://www.apis.admin.ch/de/krankheiten/docs/saeuren/os_spruehen_d.pdf Contactform of Mr. Imdorf: http://www.apis.admin.ch/de/ueberuns/feedback.php?nummer=3 regards, dieter schuerer, Switzerland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:44:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Temps inside hive in winter Comments: To: Lloyd Spear In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Lloyd: .."No brood, colony reflects ambient temperature" -- that's only during warm or mild weather (spring, summer, fall). When it gets cold enough to threaten the queen and maybe themselves, they'll go back to work controlling hive temperatures. Great little economizers. Long as it doesn't threaten the adult bees, who cares what the hive temperature is in the absence of brood. I assume that they'd go back to work under severe heat, but know that they don't bother at temperatures in the 90s. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:50:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: RFID chips and readers, Tucson AHPA Demo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi: Since I had to cancel my trip to Tucson at the last minute, I've recruited a fellow beekeeper from the country next door to try/demo the PC Card reader/tag system. Look for Allen Dick (should be easy to spot, since he always wears sandals). By 10:30 tomorrow, he should have a PCMCIA reader/writer and a couple of chips. With a bit of luck, he'll get them working with his Sony Notebook. Thanks Sorry to miss Tucson, still intend to get to Reno. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:06:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christopher Reed Subject: Nutritional Properties of Beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some of my comb honey customers are asking about the nutritional effects of eating honey in the comb. Would there be any difference in a nutrition label on extracted honey and a nutrition label on comb honey? Can you cite any scientific literature regarding the nutritional properties of beeswax? Christopher Reed Arlington, Virginia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:14:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Nutritional Properties of Beeswax I've heard there may be more yeast? But I have the same experience, especially from ethnics, who are totally convinced comb honey has special health virtues. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:53:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ed Geels Subject: Re: The Nutrional Properties of Beeswax Some information on the nutritional values of beeswax on lowering LDL cholesterol can be found at: http://www.loweringcholesterol.net/story/buzz-on-beeswax Ed Geels :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:31:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Nutritional Properties of Beeswax In-Reply-To: <12b.53cf8076.2f0df73f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Maybe the honey board has some information? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 04:24:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: OA and exposed brood In-Reply-To: <200501071353.j07DBw6L014157@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >My question is this: is there a reason you could >not, or should not use vaporized OA when exposed >brood (eggs and larvae) is present? Is it merely a >resistance to the labor of repeat treatments? From >the archives, the adult bees don't seem bothered by >OA fumes. Why limit this treatment to broodless >periods? Hi Grant, I was expecting more responses from more experienced people than me, allthemore as this subject is debated times to times. If you look the Swiss center web site (but also some Swedish, Finnish (in English) or German -if you speak a bit of German - sites), OA was used as a polishing treatment in a full year cycle management strategy including biotechnic/chemical measures to maintain varroa population at an acceptable level untill late autumn (drone brood removal, thymol, formic acid, etc.). IMHO, it is wise to use a tool when its efficiency is optimum. I considere using OA in repeatitive treatments when brood is present (low efficiency around 12% perhaps) is not IPM, but it is just my own philosphy. Such low efficiency is a waste of time and effort, which is unacceptable for lazy people like me. OA seems - from what I understood but I may be mistaken - to damage varroa by chemical burning so that it can not feed or so that is lifesan is seriously reduced when it is not immediately killed (the reason why one has to monitor mites falls for 1 to 3 weeks if one want to verify/measure OA efficiency). As far as I understood, European gave doses after extensive field tests that demonstrated no observable adverse effects. No observable does not mean no effects, as usual. I would think repeatitive chemical burns, if it is the true mechanism, may eventually damage bees also (and this is my most diplomatic English!). That is an important difference with FGMO. OA, IMHO, is a valuable tool to prepare...the next season (not to repare the current season), namely to reduce mites population as low as possible for the next spring with treatment accepted in organic certified practices, at least in most countries. The mite population in early spring, is a very important factor to go until next late autumn in not to bad shape. The question in September (or late August at worst)becomes then : Can this colony wait for an OA treatment in October or November or should I act right now. The answere depends - for me - on the varroa natural fall, the consequently extrapolated population and the varroa population threshold for winter bees raising. When I thought the varroa population would have been to high for winter bees, I treated by flash formic acid treatment to chop the mite growth. Only 3 hives over 10 needed such treatment this past year. If I can take reasonnably take the risk to keep doing nothing (and doing nothing is already doing something!), I save time, effort and potential adverse effects on bees...and maybe chemical lifespan. Now, if I could get rid of any treatment I would (sing it : oooh...if I could, I would... Simon & Garfunkel ?). I'll give a try to small cells to check. Hope this helps. Hervé www.emelys.com Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::