From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:38:46 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670FA48FD8 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEFvLg013111 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0503A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 86129 Lines: 1867 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:32:42 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Feeding with pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I thought the idea was to retain the brood, not to have the bees kicking them out of the hive.(:-). Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "josh jaros" >and they'll kick out the brood like you wouldn't believe. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 03:34:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Feeding with pollen In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: WHO is Brewtech? Address and price? George Imirie Brewtech sells all sorts of animal feed. They have plants all over the country I think. I got my last batch from a commercial beekeeper for 25 dollars for a 50lb bag. You can do a search on the internet for them. Not sure what their address is but I know that if you buy 1 or 2 bags and have them shipped the price will be higher. Some beekeeping suppliers carry it but you'd have to check. Josh Jaros __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:15:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Bee Pollen for Human Consumption In-Reply-To: <200503010500.j215015S024416@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This continues to be an interesting topic. For more see: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AA158 Malcolm T. Sanford Malcolm T. Sanford Executive Secretary Florida State Beekeepers Association http://floridabeekeepers.org Subscribe to the Association's electronic mailing list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/F_S_B_A/ and Doc Bullard's all about Florida beekeeping at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FloridaBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:53:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Feeding bees with pollen In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050301071338.02925cb0@pop.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If I use frozen pollen to feed bees before first bloom : - What is the diseases spreding reduction rate ? - What are those diseases ? What bacteria/pathogenic agents ? What is their surviving rate after freezing (let's say -15C for 48hrs)? - What are the consequences (for bees consumption) of cells membrane rupture by water cristals ? There is a food and medical products irradiation center (MDS Nordion) in Laval, Qc, just a few km from me, using a Co60 source if I remember correctly. When I worked for them as a consultant, I have seen they irradiate a lot of food products like spices. I know they conducted some trials with hives as well. But I doubt it would be a viable alternative at my micro-scale activity. Moreover, I wonder why it is forbidden to sell irradiated pollen for human consumption in Australia. Hervé Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:19:29 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Feeding with pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In case you didn't know, a great number of the Calif. queen producers exclusively use Brewer's Yeast and corn syrup, mixed in cement mixers, for an early spring protein boost. Brewer's Yeast, I am told, is the primary ingredient in every pollen supplement or pollen substitute that is sold. Here is the web site referenced by others http://www.iicag.com/brewtech%20export.php. I have no personal experience with the product, but some of those I respect swear by it so I believe it works. Here in the great northeast, patties should be put on about now as we are just about 60 days away from our first flows. The difficulty is that yards can't be got to by truck, and the fields have 9"-15" of snow. While snowshoes would do the job, it is too easy to wait for red maple bloom about March 20. So, we let the bees build on the first flows...we know better, but we don't do better. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:09:02 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Feeding with pollen In-Reply-To: <20050301113411.33192.qmail@web60007.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You folks who live outside may find things different, but I normally buy 50# bags of feed grade yeast for around $25 from my local feed store. It is readily available and it works great. And the bees take it, unlike soy based substitutes. >I got my last batch from a commercial beekeeper for 25 dollars for a 50lb bag. You can do a search on the internet for them. > Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:26:45 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Feeding bees with pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >- What are those diseases ? What bacteria/pathogenic >agents ? What is their surviving rate after freezing >(let's say -15C for 48hrs)? The main one will be American foulbrood. Freezing does not kill it but preserves it. >Moreover, I wonder why it is forbidden to sell irradiated pollen for human >consumption in Australia. Government decree. No food for human consumption in Australia is allowed to be irradiated. This has been brought about by pressure from groups opposed to irradiation. However, they are happy to use medical equipment such as bandages and syringes that have been irradiated and also condoms. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:57:58 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Bees in history MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A long time ago, there was a beehive in the middle of a forest. Every day, as worker bees do, they would go out into their fields, gather pollen from the flowers, and bring it back to make honey. The bees had a problem, though, because every so often an intruder would come around, such as a bear who wanted the honey, or kids who thought it'd be fun to throw rocks at the hive. Finally, the bees got tired of it. Being the intelligent bees that they are, they built an alarm system for the hive. They built it such that one bee pulls a lever, which triggers the alarm that the bees will hear from the fields, and then the bees can come back to protect their home. There was one bee who was exclusively assigned that job, and he was aptly named the "Lever Bee." His job was to watch for potential adversaries, and pull the lever to raise the alarm. Now obviously, the security of the hive depends on this one Lever Bee. So he has to be constantly ready and on the alert to be able to do his job. And that, dear beekeepers, is why people still say, "I'm as ready as a Lever Bee." Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:03:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Feeding with pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In case you didn't know, a great number of the Calif. queen producers > exclusively use Brewer's Yeast and corn syrup, mixed in cement mixers, > for an early spring protein boost. Yes, we researched that years ago and discussed it here on BEE-L. We bought a lot of pallets of yeast from California Spray Dry before they shut down, then went to International Ingredients for supplies. We customized several cement mixers, but found them a pain. I suppose that if we mixed a thinner dough and just ladled it out out of buckets onto the frames, that this would have worked better, but we wanted patties for simplicity and because we hire help, and that takes a fairly thick dough. Anyhow, we made our own patties for years, incorporating ideas shared here on the list and that experience is documented at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/ and http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm. For a few patties, the work is not bad, but for thousands of pounds, the thrill wears off quickly. After a while, we tired of the mess and expense of making the large quantities we needed and were lucky to find the guys who set up Global, and they built a big machine and make the patties cheaper than we can make them ourselves, and, within a few years pretty well all the big commercial guys went to them because of the cost savings, quality work, and convenience. > Brewer's Yeast, I am told, is the > primary ingredient in every pollen supplement or pollen substitute > that is sold. and > 50# bags of feed grade yeast for around $25 from my local feed store. > It is readily available and it works great. Yup, but there are some kinds that are not suitable. A search of the archives could save any people thinking of doing this some grief. We also discovered that unused yeast and soy in bags deteriorates quite quickly if it is not fresh and not fed promptly. That's one reason we pool our orders and go factory-direct. Medhat did some studies this year, and plans more this spring. Maybe he will comment. > And the bees take it, unlike soy based substitutes. We use both yeast and soy, and have found the bees will eat our patties at any time of year. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 04:14:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bees in history MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom said: A long time ago, there was a beehive in the middle of a forest. Every day, as worker bees do, they would go out into their fields, gather pollen from the flowers, and bring it back to make honey. Sorry Tom but bees do not make honey from pollen. I am sure just a typo but needs corrected for the archives! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:01:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Research May Help Fight Tiny Bee Pests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=624&ncid=753&e=10& u=/ap/20050301/ap_on_sc/bee_pests :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:38:51 -0500 Reply-To: Kate Henderson Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kate Henderson Subject: Feeding Bee Pollen mix Josh, Can you give a recipe for your mix? Can I use regular corn syrup from the supermarket? I only have 6 hives. Are they made up as patties and put on top bars or can they go on top of the inner cover . I don't want to chill the bees opening the hive's too soon, but am worried about spring feeding in time prior to brood rearing. How soon can I do it here in the Northeast, more specifically in the Hudson Valley area of New York. Its 20 degrees and we had 14 inches of snow yesterday. *** Kate Henderson Sheepy Valley Farm kate@sheepyvalley.com www.sheepyvalley.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:08:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Feeding Bee Pollen mix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Kate Henderson asks about feeding pollen patties "in the Northeast, more specifically in the Hudson Valley area of New York where it's 20 degrees F and we had 14 inches of snow yesterday." Unless one "needs" to jump start their bees (for instance to make splits or to have large populations to meet pollination contracts), feeding bees is probably not necessary in the Northeast, and in fact may be counter productive. Feeding bees is an artifical way to start the season early. Once started, feeding must be kept up until the season catches up with the beekeeper. If a colony is jump started, and the artificial source of feed runs out, it can be a sever setback for the colony and cause the bees major stress. The colony may end up worse off than if just left alone. Furthermore, a colony artifically jump started, and continued jump started properly, is almost guaranteed to swarm when the season is right unless said colony is split. Dr. Roger Morse (Cornell University) used to teach that feeding colonies in the Northeast (where he kept bees) is an unnecessary exercise. The soft maples will start blossoming in 3 or 4 weeks, which is "about" the proper time in the bee season for build up in preparation for the honey flows in this area. Spring feeding bees pollen patties is covered extensively in the BEE-L archives. There is a lot of good information, including recipes and warnings such as I've written here. If a beekeeper is considering feeding their bees because it sounds like a good idea, it may not be as good an idea as it sounds. There should be a reason to feed bees, it should be done properly, continued once started, and the beekeeper must be highly successful when it comes to swarm control. Otherwise, leave the bees alone. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:40:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FW: Feeding Bee Pollen mix In-Reply-To: <63D883CB0A1B204EB053673DD882CB530B3C6F93@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Unless one "needs" to jump start their bees (for instance to make splits or > to have large populations to meet pollination contracts), feeding bees is > probably not necessary in the Northeast, and in fact may be counter > productive. I add candy over the cluster every year. It is not feeding in the classic sense but insurance against starvation. The main problem we run into here in Maine is you can lose a colony in March/April through starvation, even if there is plenty of honey in the hive and maples are blooming. The reason is a sharp and long cold snap. The bees will cluster around the brood and can starve even though honey is just inches away to the right or left. By having candy right over the cluster, they do not have to move since they are in contact with it. I learned to use candy after looking at my healthy, bursting with bees hives and went to DC for a wedding. Came back and one colony starved and another was near starvation after only one week, just because of a sudden and week-long cold snap. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:08:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Feeding Bee Pollen mix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Under a thread titled "Feeding Bee Pollen mix" Bill Truesdell added comments about feeding candy over the cluster. Candy feeding is far different than pollen feeding. Candy feeding is subsistence feeding whereas pollen patties is stimulative feeding, the intent of which is to jump start one's bees to raise abundant brood at a time when they would normally be raising minimal brood. Aaron Morris - thinking apples and oranges :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:16:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Contact information for Bill Wilson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Can anyone provide contact information for Bill Wilson? After he retired from Weslaco, he moved to St George, Utah. Went through this fall, no listing in the phone book. He talked about moving on to the NW, on the coast. Can anyone help? Thanks Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:20:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bees in history In-Reply-To: <000701c51f10$a8f82660$06bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bob corrected Tom about pollen and honey. There's one other error -- never seen a drone (male) yet that did any work in the hive. So the lever bee undoubtedly was female (she, not he). Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:49:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders In-Reply-To: <000001c51da6$142bd240$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Realising that there are many ways of answering the question of how to clean queen excluders! - I would like to read about methods of physically cleaning them. I have about 500 excluders, some nearly totally blocked with wax. They have been in this state, I presume for many years - just placed on top of brood boxes when needed, without maintenance. Suggestions please. Did try the archives, but no reply from the server over several hours!!!!!!!!!! Thanks, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:51:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Realising that there are many ways of answering the question of how > to clean queen excluders! Two words: Pressure Washer. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:34:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: josh jaros Subject: Re: FW: Feeding Bee Pollen mix In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all, I have to echo Aaron Morris on his good advice. I like to make splits in the spring and for me to do that I need to get them going early. This means that once I get them going I can't stop, and I could even starve them if I didn't watch their stores. It's important to know how your bees are going to react when you jumpstart them. Nature will prepare the bees on its own for the spring flow without your help, and the timing will be perfect. This is a manipulation you should only attempt if you have done your homework. Josh Jaros __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:21:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL BOEHM Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Dillon" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 7:49 PM Subject: [BEE-L] Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders To quickly remove a lot of wax from the wire excluders stack about five at a time on a old hive body and blow the hot air from a heat gun on them, works fast. I use a milwaukee heat gun with 2 settings 500 and 1000 degrees, low works fast. Use leather gloves the wire gets hot. You could probably stack them higher but I never tried. Al Boehm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:35:34 -0500 Reply-To: Kate Henderson Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kate Henderson Subject: Physical Methods of Cleaning Queen Excluders I have a homemade solar wax melter that I can fit about 6 at a time in. On a sunny day, the excluders are clean in a couple hours and I have the reclaimed wax as well. Maybe someone here has directions on building a solar wax melter. I got mine used at an auction. *** Kate Henderson Sheepy Valley Farm kate@sheepyvalley.com www.sheepyvalley.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:43:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Feeding with pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am going to mix a batch patties of pollen, pollen substitute and > fructose this week in an electric cement mixer. Can the list provide > pointers on the process of mixing and making the patties? Sorry. Shoulda given you this URL: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/makepolpat.htm It's been a long time. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:57:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TNT Apiaries Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I have about 500 excluders, some nearly totally blocked with wax. If they are truly that blocked, I'd boil the wax off first. You'll be surprised at how much you'll recover. Then on to Allen's suggestion. >Two words: Pressure Washer. The pressure washer by itself can be a long old grind on heavily waxed excluders. We do 2000+, every year in an average day with three guys. Usually pay for one with the wax recovered. Use a tank that is 24"l X 48"l X 32"d. I know some guys use Drilling Rig Wash (Acidic) and then a rinse. Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:11:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Hi Peter: I have a steam chest for melting old frames. It works equally well for queen excluders, doing about 50 at a time. A fair amount of wax is recovered which may be significant now that the price of honey is below the price of wax. Best regards Donald Aitken -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 01/03/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:20:14 -0500 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: FW: Feeding Bee Pollen mix-homework? In-Reply-To: <20050303013435.49017.qmail@web60003.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "...This is a manipulation you should only attempt if you have done your homework..." Josh Jaros And what homework would you recommend. While I have been in the midst of tracking down Dr. Imrie's Pink Pages, and making PDF's from them, I don't know much else to look for except in the latest hive and the honey bee (got a great deal on eBay for it George-Thanks for the tip...) I need to learn, and seems that a time to start would be, well, NOW. I lost 50% of the hives this year due to my own stupidity (perhaps I can kill the rest too). The only ones still going are the ones with Arheit's Queens BTW...Of course I killed two others with his queens, but again, they starved because I was asleep at the wheel...JK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:05:42 -0500 Reply-To: markp@together.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Payton Subject: Re: Physical Methods of Cleaning Queen Excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can find solar wax melter plans at these sites: http://www.beesource.com/plans/melter.htm http://members.aol.com/beetools/solar.htm http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/small_beekeeping/equipment_plans.htm http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/abeng/plans/6265.pdf Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 03:56:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...If they are truly that blocked, I'd boil the wax off first. You'll > be surprised at how much you'll recover. Then on to Allen's > suggestion... > ...We do 2000+, every year in an average day with three guys. > Usually pay for one with the wax recovered. > Use a tank that is 24"l X 48"l X 32"d. Yes, as several have pointed out, It pays to boil excluders from time to time if you have enough to justify the setup. For only a few, just a scrape will do. Some people like them factory-clean, though. Obviously, the bees don't, however, and, frankly, in recent years we quit cleaning excluders much, since we found the bees move wax around in the hive to suit themselves, especially if we use foundation near them and they need the wax. Bees wax and unwax everything in the hive to suit their own needs. IMO, usually a quick scrape for the worst ones is all that is needed, just so they fit into the stack without jacking up the frames above them too much. If you get a good flow, bees generally wax excluders no matter what you do. Here's a picture of the tank we used when we were doing thousands: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary052002.htm It is full of water, heated by a large propane torch underneath. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 04:17:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Feeding with pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > Sorry. Shoulda given you this URL: > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/makepolpat.htm I also should have read that page all the way to the bottom. In case you're wondering if you should really call me, the page was actually made for some people we had making patties on contract, so, no, you probably don't need to :) It is hard for someone who hasn't done it to imagine how many things can go wrong in a big, expensive messy project like that, and how 'creative' people can be -- or how many unique ways they can misunderstand simple instructions, especially if you go away for a while. That's why we so much appreciate being able to count on professionals who have been in the food preparation business for decades, to make our patties for us. Having said that, though, I should point out that my comments are aimed at professional beekeepers with thousands of hives. For hobbyists and sideliners, patty making can be fun, and accomplished in a few hours. Here's the page designed more for the public: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/ Of course, we have changed our thinking a bit, the minute that the page was done, years back, but hopefully, it should be useful for getting started. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:01:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Cleaning queen excluders HI! Obviously, one wants to handle excluders as little as possible. Even a slight bend in the wires can render the device *worse than useless*. I suppose a solar melter is the best plan, but for those of us with less than enough sun, especially in winter, I invented an "electric solar melter". I took an empty deep super, nailed a piece of plywood on it, and mounted four heat lamps. I put the waxy queen excluder on a drip board, and place the heat box over it, with the lamps pointing down. It takes a minute or two to completely clean the excluder. The wax drips into the drip board, which has a hole in the rim to let the wax drip into a bucket. This year I improved it slightly by fastening the box to the drip board with hinges, and I tilted it a little to keep the wax from pooling up. I use this to clean 200 excluders each winter. It requires very little attention. I also wired in a wind-up timer on it so that if I forget about it, it shuts itself off (instead of bursting into flames, which it could do). pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:24:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why clean wax from queen excluders? Bees will more readily pass through an excluder if some burr comb is present to act as a ladder on a bound excluder. Bees must go to the effort of building new burr comb if it has been removed. Of course if the excluder is more than 50 percent covered with wax, it would make sense to remove it. Do most beekeepers remove wax from excluders every year? Marc Studebaker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:55:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders In-Reply-To: <005801c52050$8b4562e0$b3b21242@D99JVT51> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks for the varied answers to my mail relating to Queen excluder cleaning. The ones that require remedial action are approx. 75% plugged with wax that is over 1 cm. thick. Not the fresh kind either. Burr comb - tolerated, obliterated wire - another situation! They are in good condition when relating to the gaps (they being wire type excluders) and worth dealing with. Um, thinking about what I have just written - they worked, keeping the queen in the required place last season. Just hope that after having being relieved of their burden, oversized gaps do not appear. Thank again. Peter PS. Aaron, the archives came up just fine after the mail was sent! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:53:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Cleaning Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The bees don't seem to particularly appreciate pristine new looking excluders, they like a bit of coating, but I have noticed that they are fussy about the dimensional construction of excluders. Here in the uk, some of the equipment makers construct wire excluders with the wire in the centre of the frame(incorrectly IMO), some with the wire neatly set in a wire depth on the underside of the frame(underside for top beespace hives). The centred ones are always more waxed than the offset ones, I guess because the bees are confused as to where the beespace is. (All components put on the hive should have a clear top beespace and no underspace) Alan Riach Edinburgh :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:44:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: queen excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All of the discussion about cleaning excluders begs the real questions: Do excluders actually work as well as the proponents think -- in our research, we've seen a lot of queens slip through, whether metal or plastic. Are excluders good management -- do they actually do more good than harm? How much is the use of excluders based on actual data -- or are they being used because that's the way things should be? Frankly, I've seen excluders cause tremendous disruption to colony dynamics - queens superceded, balled, aborted. Brood ripped out, etc. Comb torn down. Resources moved about -- all during nectar flows. This may seem to be what you want -- shut down the queen's laying, fewer mouths to feed after the nectar flow. But it may also affect the dynamics of nectar gathering, overall foraging activity, and your honey yields. Might more honey harvested offset some of the additional mouths to feed? Maybe you'd be better off to go in after the flow, find the queen, remove half of the old bees - sell them for dog food or make splits? That would accomplish what you want -- reduce population size, and stimulate the queen to produce more young bees -- who might just winter better? I realize that there are different dynamics in different climates -- excluder users generally a) want to shut down the queen, keep population size smaller post-nectar flow, and/or b) don't want brood in the honey boxes (reason many commercial folks use them). My problem, how much of this is beekeeper lore or convenience, how much based on real knowledge? Me thinks this may set off a debate - hopefully more interesting than 100 other ways to clean excluders. Don't get me wrong, the first few posts were interesting -- but I think that thread has run its course. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:39:42 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Cleaning Queen excluders In-Reply-To: <422813E5.20609@which.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <422813E5.20609@which.net>, Alan Riach writes >The bees don't seem to particularly appreciate pristine new looking >excluders, they like a bit of coating, but I have noticed that they are >fussy about the dimensional construction of excluders. Having hundreds of both styles in service I can honestly say there is not a lot of evidence in our outfit to say the bees prefer one to the other. Get the spacing between the boxes (and the frames above and below) correct and all seem almost equally well accepted. Even the perforated zinc sheets, with no addition of bee space, are passable although we use these last. >Here in the uk, some of the equipment makers construct wire excluders >with the wire in the centre of the frame(incorrectly IMO), some with the >wire neatly set in a wire depth on the underside of the frame(underside >for top beespace hives). Dave Cushman might come in on this, but I think you would be hard pressed to find centre placed ones made much after 1970, if even so recent, as I cannot date any we have to later than 1960. This is a pattern normally called a Waldron, and the support for the excluder wires lies vertically and it was necessary to centre the excluder in the frame to allow the wire to have enough room in the bee space between the boxes. They were superceded almost immediately the somewhat superior Hertzog grids became available. This grid allowed placement on one side of the frame, reducing the fragility of construction that the Waldron entailed. The bees may prefer it a little, but we cannot say that there is much difference as far as the bees are concerned. The biggest issue we find is the British practice of having different spacings in the brood chambers and in the honey supers. ( I refer to the practice of Hoffmans in the brood boxes and Manleys in the honey supers, a practice that, if starting again today, I would never adopt ) This causes ventilation issues and if the wood of the boxes shrinks a bit with age, can also cause bee space problems and obstructed passage up the hive for the bees (especially over the centre combs of the nest), and this in turn sometimes leads to some quite spectacular burr/brace comb issues in the excluder area. Reasonably accurate bee space and same spacing above and below radically reduces these issues and make the choice of excluder type secondary. > (All components put on the hive should have a clear top >beespace and no underspace) Of course this depends what hive type you have and even then, what your national variant is like. Even something as universal as Langstroth is top bee space most places, but bottom bee space in some. As for cleaning excluders? Well I agree most with Allen. Unless the wax is causing an obstruction to the bars above sitting down properly we just leave them as they are, and the bees do what they want with the ladder comb. Quick rip off with the butt end of the hive tool if some has to be removed. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:42:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We use excluders on the hives throughout the year. Comparative tests = here and in Israel have shown quite conclusively that a single = Langstroth broodchamber is ample for a good queen in our conditions and = the use of the excluder gives the maximum crop. We have tested all the = combinations of double broodchambers,1+3/4 and 1+1/2. The use of an = excluder during some periods of the year appears to cause more upset = than is wished for and doesn't allow the broodnest to become stable. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:03:25 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do excluders actually work as well as the proponents think -- in our > research, we've seen a lot of queens slip through, whether metal or > plastic. Yes I have the occasional queen slip through the excluders we use. It is a pain but we put up with it. We use welded wire ones. I have never been a fan of plastic ones. They tend to stick more to the hive when taking the hive apart and do not lend themselves to cleaning in boiling water. > Are excluders good management -- do they actually do more good than harm? If they are doing harm then I am prepared to wear it. For me I could not produce honey, particularly at today's prices, without excluders. > Frankly, I've seen excluders cause tremendous disruption to colony > dynamics > - queens superceded, balled, aborted. Brood ripped out, etc. Comb torn > down. Resources moved about -- all during nectar flows. >From our experience there could well be some of the above but it is only in very small numbers. We tend to not loss many queens during the season. We know because we mark our queens. As for the resouces being moved, we want the honey shifted from the brood chamber up to the honey supers. > My problem, how much of this is beekeeper lore or convenience, how much > based on real knowledge? It is, in our case, convenience. I nearly said necessity but I suppose you could run hives without excluders but it would entail a lot more work and that translates to cost of production. There is not knowledge as such available that I am aware of, just anecdotal evidence from other beekeepers and our own experience. For me, it is because of our climate and conditions that I choose to use excluders. I can imagine in some parts of the world you could run hives without excluders. Reasons I could think of are the way the honey flow comes in, the price of labour and the price you get for your honey. All this does not mean that I do not believe the information that Jerry has posted just that I could not profitably run honey production colonies without excluders. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 05:36:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Queen Excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/03/2005 05:13:13 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: > I realize that there are different dynamics in different climates -- > excluder users generally > > a) want to shut down the queen, keep population size smaller post-nectar > flow, and/or > b) don't want brood in the honey boxes (reason many commercial folks use > them). > > I have just been through all my stored combs. The brood combs have plenty of wax moth. The honey combs from above quen excluders have none. They are stored in the same conditions. Chris (UK) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:10:25 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Cleaning Queen excluders In-Reply-To: <9Gxo8wAeWNKCFw0X@denrosa.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Murray mentions... > but I think you would be hard pressed to find centre placed ones > made much after 1970, if even so recent, as I cannot date any we > have to later than 1960. This is a pattern normally called a Waldron, > and the support for the excluder wires lies vertically and it was > necessary to centre the excluder in the frame to allow the wire to > have enough room in the bee space between the boxes. They were > superceded almost immediately the somewhat superior Hertzog > grids became available. I can't firm up the dates mentioned by Murray, but they seem about right to me, the only excluders that I have seen recently with half and half bee space were made in New Zealand. The Framed Herzog excluders stand out for ease of colony manipulation and speed of apiary work. I have also used Herzog grids that were unframed and the full size of the hive top. The grid specification was exactly the same, but they attracted more wax than the wood framed ones, so I cut them up for use on nucs and making gadgets. The only perforated sheet ones that I used were framed and had a central frame strip that allowed placement over a pair of five frame nucs. Looking at them from an economic point of view I would say the framed Herzog excluder comes out best, it is not the cheapest to purchase, but the efficiency savings in speed of use, more than repay the extra price. They are also about the most difficult to damage as the wires are high quality stiff material. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:46:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: peterborst Subject: Queen Excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" RE: >All of the discussion about cleaning excluders begs the real questions: >Do excluders actually work as well as the proponents think -- in our research, we've seen a lot of queens slip through, whether metal or plastic. >Are excluders good management -- do they actually do more good than harm? >How much is the use of excluders based on actual data -- or are they being used because that's the way things should be? >Frankly, I've seen excluders cause tremendous disruption to colony dynamics - queens superceded, balled, aborted. Brood ripped out, etc. Comb torn down. Resources moved about -- all during nectar flows. Greetings! I have kept bees for thirty years, sometimes a few at a time, sometimes hundreds of hives. I have managed hives without queen excluders and with them. Using either approach, you have to thoroughly understand the method, implement it correctly, and be willing to shift gears as needed! The primary reason for using the queen excluder is to *organize the hive* into a brood area and a honey area. Of course, honey bees will normally do this on their own -- but the line is never as distinct as it is with the queen excluder in place. In my view, there is only one appropriate place for the excluder: *over the second story*. If you put it over the first, you'll cramp the queen. If you put if over the third, they will probably pack the second and third with honey, and neglect to go through the excluder. With no excluder in place, one usually "top-supers", rather than put a new super under the older, because if you under-super with no queen excluder, you can pretty much bet the queen will fill the combs with eggs. Early in the season that would cause no particular harm, because eventually the brood hatches and the bees move the nest back down as the supers fill up. But if you want to keep the brood out of the supers, best to put empties on top -- the full supers act as a natural barrier to the queen. Further, top supering is much easier and will probably net you just as much honey, depending on flow conditions. With the excluder in place, you can put the empty right over the excluder, and put fuller boxes on top. This is more work, but it may help to prevent the brood nest from getting honey-bound and it certainly is nice having the full supers on top of the partials, when you are using a fume board. It is much easier to handle the honey supers, when you know that the queen is *not* in them. There is virtually no danger of crushing the queen when checking or removing the honey. In fact, the honey comes off much easier when there is *no* brood up in the supers. (Yeah, I know, sometimes she gets through a bum excluder, but I find this is *very* rare, if you take care of your excluders) Most problems arise from *lack of follow up*. If you use the excluder, you must make sure the bees are passing freely through it. If not, it may be best to remove it until the bees are well up into the supers. Then, the hive can be reorganized by physically moving the queen and brood down, inserting the excluder and moving full frames of honey out of the brood area into the supers (not possible if one uses deeps for brood but mediums or shallows for the supers). Another approach is to leave the excluders off for the first half of the season. Then, try to take as much honey off as possible and reduce the hives to two stories. Re-super, putting the excluder in the correct place. At this point the hives should be boiling with bees and the excluder should prove no hindrance. So, to answer Jerry's specific objections, if a person is doing something because they think *they should*, that's obviously a mistake. You need to do what works best for you, via *trial and error*. If the excluder flat won't work for you, give it up and learn to manage the hives without it. If you want to use them, you have to learn to recognize the problems and fix them. A queen excluder most definitely can cause a "disruption to colony dynamics". Of course, if the queen excluder was *solely* to blame for this, it would be worse than useless. But it isn't. It can be used to great advantage, if you *thoroughly understand the method, implement it correctly, and be willing to shift gears as needed!* pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:26:56 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Queen excluders -necessity or nuisance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The need for them seems to depend on the time of year and the strength of flow. In the spring/early summer flows, our queens migrate up into the honey supers if excluders are not fitted (single 40 litre broodbox system). There seems to be a tremendous pressure upwards in the late spring. However in the autumn (fall) heather flows there seems no need for excluders, the queens stay below quite happily. Alan Riach, Edinburgh :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:34:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 4 Mar 2005 to 5 Mar 2005 (#2005-65) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good morning fellow beekeepers and other readers out there in cyber space. Queen exluders: This has been and probably will continue to be a subject to be much argumented about. In my opinion it has its pluses and its minuses. It is up to the user to use it properly to obtain best results. If not, the user will be the first to state that it is "no good." Personally, I still remember the words of my beekeeping mentor in my childhood days: "queen excluders exclude more than just the queen." After 65 years of beekeeping, my observations induce me to agree with him. Have a wonderful day and God bless. Dr. Rodriguez Proclaiming The Lord´s expression and creation with our honey bees. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:24:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: FW: queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All >this does not mean that I do not believe the information that Jerry has >posted just that I could not profitably run honey production colonies >without excluders. I am not really sure I agree with that assessment as a blanket statement. So long as there is plenty of forage for your bees, the more bees you have, the more honey you get. It is also true that a colony that is very strong produces more honey than two colonies that add together to equal strength. If you keep bees in a ULBN arrangement or something similar, allowing the bees to manage their own breeding capacity, you most often find that your production levels increase a great deal. As far as I know, and according to most commercial beekeepers that I know. Queen excluders are these days most often use by hobbyists and smaller operations. The largest operations avoid them as an added expense and increase of labor. Scot Mc Pherson Linux From Scratch http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:46:44 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: FW: queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am not really sure I agree with that assessment as a blanket > statement. So long as there is plenty of forage for your bees, the more > bees you have, the more honey you get. I did not make it as a blanket statement and the reverse applies where I do not believe a blanket statement can be used to say it is better without excluders. The more bees I have the more honey I get with excluders and, provided of course, there is producing blossom to work. > As far as I know, and according to most commercial beekeepers that I > know. Queen excluders are these days most often use by hobbyists and > smaller operations. The largest operations avoid them as an added > expense and increase of labor. This is in your part of the world. In our part of the world large operations use excluders. I am unaware of anyone running a commercial operation that does not use excluders. If they did not they could not produce honey in the quantities they do without excluders given current prices and labour costs. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:01:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Grant Gillard Subject: Looking for Bob Horr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm looking for Bob Horr. He wrote articles published in the ABJ, and of my most recent notes, lived in New York State. I'd like to make contact via e-mail, so if you're out there, Bob, please give me a toot at: gfcg7312003@yahoo.com Thanks, Grant --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:08:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/03/05 18:28:12 GMT Standard Time, jjbmail@SELWAY.UMT.EDU writes: <> One of the fattest queens I ever had went through an excluder. I was smoking the bees (under the SBB) when I saw a kestrel drop on something s few yards away, just beyond the hedge. I waited, and saw it fly up with what looked like a small mammal, then realised I was still pumping the bellows; the bees must have been half gassed. A few moments later, I found the queen crawling about on the excluder. There were no eggs in the supers, so I have to asume I'd just driven her upstairs. Since most of my queens are quite significantly slimmer, they could probably get through if they wanted. I don't like excluders, since bees don't seem to like going through them, and I find they delay the occupation of the supers. I use them any time there's no honey arch at the top of the broodbox, but once this is established, I find that it keeps the queen below quite efficiently, and therefore remove them. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:14:13 -0500 Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Juan_Carlos_Fern=E1ndez_Campos?= Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Juan_Carlos_Fern=E1ndez_Campos?= Subject: Re: queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry, If handled properly excluders seems to work OK; are you shure that yuo are adding suficient space to queen's chamber after the placement of the excluders? Are you shure taht the old sealed larva combs where moved up? In that way it work fine to me, got clean honey, lot of brood, non stoping layering queen, and stronger colony.(I use plastic) Julio. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Bromenshenk" To: Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:44 AM Subject: [BEE-L] queen excluders > All of the discussion about cleaning excluders begs the real questions: > > Do excluders actually work as well as the proponents think -- in our > research, we've seen a lot of queens slip through, whether metal or plastic. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:38:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Check out Messier Object 44 Comments: To: beefarmgfc@yahoo.com, honeylady60@yahoo.com, ALIMBEES@msn.com, geniebee@juno.com, drectenwald@earthlink.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can see why I'm sending this if you Click here: Messier Object 44 Russ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:09:19 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Person search Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I'm looking for Bob Horr." Last I heard he had permenently relocated to Southern Europe. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:23:10 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Queen Excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "As far as I know, and according to most commercial beekeepers that I > know. Queen excluders are these days most often use by hobbyists and > smaller operations." Strange how some can live so close together and yet have totally different views of the world: I have been 'taught' how to use queen excluders for extracted honey by commercial beekeepers. I don't think most hobbyists know how to use them. We don't have a lot of commercial beekeepers in upstate NY, but the following have taught me a lot about using queen excluders: 1. Doan's, near Rochester. 4,000 hives. 2. Finster, near Utica. 3,000 hives. There are only a couple of other outfits the size of these in NY, and I don't know what they do. I do know of another two large operations in Vermont who also would not think of running hives for extraction without using excluders. As someone else said on this thread, excluders are used to keep brood out of supers to facilitate extraction. In upstate NY we often have a 2-3 week summer period with little nectar flow, and then a large fall flow. During the summer dearth, bees will often consume honey in supers and the queen will move up and lay in the available cells. With a three-week window needed for brood to mature and the cells to become available for nectar, the brood is often still there when extracting commences. This makes for a real mess in the honey house. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:09:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few years ago whilst visiting beekeepers in Nova Scotia I saw that they had devised a motorised wire brush for cleaning excluders. It was basically about six (150mm x 25mm) wire wheels mounted on a single shaft, and coupled to a motor via a "V" belt. The wheels were set into a small bench and the excluders were just slide across them. It worked really well when it was cold. Ideal for Canadian winters! I have been cleaning mine with steam from an old wax melter but find that the wire bound excluder becomes black, and that this "blackness" (oxide) is transferred to the next seasons wax. I should build myself a wheelly cleaner? Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:50:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter asks: I should build myself a wheelly cleaner? Never use a hive tool or a wire brush on a queen excluder as they both remove the plated coating and then they RUST. Rust on excluders tears bee wings. The small beekeeper can simply place his excluders inside a dark plastic trash sack kept from the sack by small boards . In full sun the wax will melt and fall to the bottom of the trash sack. Be very careful as you can burn your hands when removing the excluders from the sack on a hot day. Very hot water in a tank is the best way for a large amount. Simply dunk using gloves and set aside. Both the above lets you save the wax. When the tank cools the wax will form at the top of the tank to be saved. Pressure washing is common but messy. You get wet and perhaps a face full of water. You blast the wax and propolis all over the place. At times you blast an excluder off the wall from the pressure. Yes pressure washing excluders still works and the method of choice for a few old beekeeping dinosaurs. He He. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:31:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Waggle Subject: Feral Colony Estimates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ok, We’ve all heard it: In the wild, "only 10 percent of all feral honeybee colonies remain within the northeastern United States," according to Caron and his Penn State colleagues, Maryann Frazier and Scott Camazine. But what does 10 percent mean? I’m looking for reference material that might give me some idea of the ‘actual estimated pre mite feral populations’ per lets say, square mile. ,,,,And the first person that says 100 percent ,,,, %&*#$%#& LOL Just kidding, I would never do that :>) Thanks, Joe :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:07:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/7/05 5:43:28 PM, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: << yes, pressure washing excluders still works and the method of choice for a few old beekeeping dinosaurs. He He. >> I am an OLDER dinosaur, and I agree with all you have written about cleaning excluders. George :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 19:39:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Physical methods of cleaning Queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes pressure washing excluders still works and the method of choice > for a few old beekeeping dinosaurs. He He. Okay, truth! Frankly, I have never used my pressure washer on excluders, but I thought it was worth a try. Once in a while, we boiled them, and got some wax. The rest of the time, we just used them as-is. Many years ago, I made a stack, threw gasoline on and lit a match. That really cleaned them off. Surprisingly, they were still fine and lasted another twenty years and I sold them for more that I paid for them. Just the same... there are better ways. As bob says, they have a fine finish and are a precision instrument. I don't know if I agree, though, with the statement someone made that bending one wire makes them useless. Some time back, I heard that only the centre part matters (probably on BEE-L?) and the queens just hunt around the middle part, so we put a whole bunch on crossways -- like a thousand? A few queens went up, most didn't, but we stopped doing that. Anyhow, this is a great discussion, and we are hearing lots of differing views. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::