From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:28:15 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.3 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2411349085 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SF1MME014128 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0608B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 111715 Lines: 2551 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 19:50:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: open feeding bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Some more hints: 1. Straw absorbs moisture. To a barrel, I start with 1/4 bale. Push it down until the syrup barely covers the top. Go back in 2 days, and the straw will have come up so far that the bees can't get to the syrup. Repeat above. The bottom layer of the straw will be saturated and the rest will be partially saturated. Usually after the second dunking most of the straw will remain above the syrup, but some pockets of pure syrup will form. The bees will stand on the exposed syrup and fill up! I've had a yard of 20 hives take a barrel of syrup in a week, with (I estimate) fewer than 200 drowned bees. That is 30 lbs. a hive, usually just about what I want. 2. Rain water will sit on top of the straw/syrup and the bees will ignore the barrel contents. It is really a MESS to mix the rainwater with the syrup/straw. To minimize the effects of rain, I leave the barrell top on, and tip it up so rain will drain to one side by putting a 2 x 4 under the cover on the uphill side of the barrel. This will leave a 1.5 inch opening for the bees, which is plenty, and will divert 90%+ of the rain water outside the barrel. 3. Yes, the strongest colonies will get 'most' of the syrup, but so what? Those are just the colonies you want to go through the winter. Do you really care if your weak colonies don't make it through the winter? If so, why? In the days of wild bees, open feeding meant feeding them. They are largely gone from the Northeast US, and I don't personally mind feeding those hanging around. Feeding a neighbors bees is a different issue. If there are other yards within 1/2 miles I would not use open feeding. Fortunately, I don't know that I have that problem. Hope this helps. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 20:34:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeffrey Hamelman Subject: skunks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a persistent skunk, who comes at night and takes up residence = under the bottom board of one of my colonies, and then eats who knows = how many bees all night long. Any advice? Jeffrey in Vermont -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 22:11:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: ApiGuard, Menthol and Requeening- How to do all three? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:55:10 -0400, Brad Young wrote: > Can they both be done at the same time, >during August, or would that be too much foriegn vapor for the bees and >cause them to abscond, or die? Secondly, can I requeen while one or both >of these medications are being administered? 1) Are you certain that you need both? Perhaps the thymol will be adequate. Mixing it with menthol is probably NOT a good idea, as these products presumably have never been tested together. 2) Personally, I think it would be a mistake to attempt to requeen at this time. Good acceptance normally requires good conditions and having the hive filled with chemical fumes is not my idea of a good condition. 3) You may be able to requeen later, if you will have queens available. I have requeened with excellent success in the broodless period in the fall. The bees really have no choice but to accept the queen at that point. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:38:12 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Organization: Vita (Europe) Ltd Subject: Re: ApiGuard, Menthol and Requeening- How to do all three? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brad, We haven't tried using menthol alongside or after Apiguard. In the development of the product, we showed pretty good control of tracheal mites with Apiguard (thymol) alone and even though the main target is varroa mite, Apiguard is used extensively in some areas to control tracheal mite too. If you want to use both Apiguard and menthol, I would do the menthol treatment after (separately from) the Apiguard. Otherwise the bees might object to the extra odour. You may otherwise overdose. Likewise, I would re-queen after the Apiguard treatment, as essential oils can sometimes affect egg laying for a few days. Regards, Max Dr Max Watkins Director Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0)1256 473 177 Fax: +44 (0)1256 473 179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 05:58:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Special Edition Stamps Issued for APIMEDICA 2006 in Greece MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII See the stamps at: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:29:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: hay in sugar water? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen I have read with interest the suggestions that the number for drowned = thirsty bees would be diminished by mixing sugared water with portions = of hay bales. At present my bees water themselves in the water troughs = that I leave out for livestock and birds. While I possess many hay bales = it seemed to me that a better solution would be to float small pieces of = styro-foam packing in the pool of fluid thus leaving less opportunity to = for the little girls to drown. Surely someone has tried this out. I am = curious about how it went before I go out and try and re invent the = wheel. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:13:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Williams Subject: Re: skunks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit go to _http://www.bugspray.com/catalog/products/page600.html_ (http://www.bugspray.com/catalog/products/page600.html) I've never had a skunk problem, but this might help! George Williams FLA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:54:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: skunks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try placing a piece of plywood with spiked carpet strips under the hive Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 11:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: skunks In-Reply-To: <003a01c6ba82$78d46ca0$6401a8c0@jefferya8sisex> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeffrey Hamelman wrote: > I have a persistent skunk, who comes at night and takes up residence under the bottom board of one of my colonies, and then eats who knows how many bees all night long. Any advice? > 22 long rifle. I know that skunks are good, but not for bees. You can elevate the hive so the skunk has to get up on its hind legs to feast and lay down nails, spikes and the like, but I have found that it is better to remove them permanently. For a long time I would capture them and release them elsewhere, but you are only creating a problem for someone else. (Found out that my area was the release area for the town, so I decided to make it a terminal point.) If you do decide to capture them, use a "have a heart" trap. Bait it with a hard boiled egg.. You will catch it that night, since skunks are dumber than skunks. Put a tarp up in front of you and cover the trap, then transport it to where you wish to release it. I was fearful of being sprayed when I released them, but they generally just took the whole thing as an inconvenience, with no umbrage. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:02:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: hay in sugar water? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Joe wonders why not use styrofoam blocks or something else that floats instead of straw (hay)? Good question. I have tried styro blocks and they don't work...meaning that lots of drowned bees result. Why? I don't know, but I can speculate. Around here, when barrel feeding time arrives it is mid to late fall. The purpose of barrel feeding is mostly for getting enough winter stores into the hives. There is little to no natural flow at the time, and the hive populations are essentially at peak levels. The result is a feeding frenzy with tens of thousands of bees in the air and in the barrel. (Together with a horde of yellow jackets, bald-faced hornets, and other flying critters.) If one looks in the barrel, when there are pieces of styro they are black with bees and the syrup is full of bees. When the straw in properly positioned there will be so many bees on it that the entire mass is constantly quivering and moving. My guess is that the drowning occurs because feeding bees are literaly pushed into the syrup by others and can't crawl back up without getting pushed back. Properly positioned straw seems to give the bees room to stand without providing enough open syrup space for the feeding bees to get pushed in. Just a guess... How would a bushel of styro peanuts work? Don't know. May work as well as straw. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 08:50:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: skunks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *** I have a persistent skunk, who comes at night and takes up residence under the bottom board of one of my colonies, and then eats who knows how many bees all night long. Any advice? *** I use a German Shepard. If your not into deodorizing dogs, you might want to raise the hive on a slightly higher hive stand. If the skunk has to stand to harass the bees, it exposes its less protected belly to stings. The other option is a bed of nails, a board full of nails right in front of the hive entrance on the ground. My hives that are about 12" off the ground have not been bothered. If you raise the hives and weed whack, the skunk should not nest under there. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 14:12:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: skunks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are probably not losing many bees at night Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 14:17:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: hay in sugar water? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Styrofoam will ride high in the syrup and does not have any capillary action to wick the syrup. The bees will still have to get to the syrup. Straw will allow the bees good footing and capillary action. The classic method has been a wood block covered with burlap for the same reason. I have always felt that open feeding is a great way to spread bee diseases. Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 14:51:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] hay in sugar water? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by annbal@COMCAST.NET to the BEE-L = list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously = posted material. =20 > it seemed to me that a > better solution would be to float small pieces of styro-foam packing = in the pool > of fluid=20 > I purchased Eli's Aquifers from Brushy Mountain. They consist of = plastic rectangular buckets with a detachable rim, little brightly = colored styrofoam islands and a tiny-holed white mesh overlay. The = styrofoam islands hold up the mesh allowing the bees to walk on it and = drink. We purchased three of them (they're fairly inexpensive) and had = them in place before our neighbors opened their pool (!!) and when we = installed the packages.=20 Here are some pictures:=20 http://www.annzoid.com/images/forums/aquifer1.jpg http://www.annzoid.com/images/forums/aquifer2.jpg So far so good! Ann Hanson, MA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 18:04:10 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ann Rein Subject: Re: hay in sugar water? I purchased Eli's Aquifers from Brushy Mountain. They consist of plastic rectangular buckets with a detachable rim, little brightly colored styrofoam islands and a tiny-holed white mesh overlay. The styrofoam islands hold up the mesh allowing the bees to walk on it and drink. We purchased three of them (they're fairly inexpensive) and had them in place before our neighbors opened their pool (!!) and when we installed the packages. Here are some pictures: http://www.annzoid.com/images/forums/aquifer1.jpg http://www.annzoid.com/images/forums/aquifer2.jpg So far so good! Ann Hanson, MA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 19:58:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: hay in sugar water? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I have always felt that open feeding is a great way to spread bee diseases. I don't like open feeding but please elaborate your point on it spreading disease. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:10:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: ApiGuard, Menthol and Requeening- How to do all three? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Max Watkins wrote: >If you want to use both Apiguard and menthol, I would do the menthol treatment after (separately from) the Apiguard. Otherwise the bees might object to the extra odour. You may otherwise overdose. Furthermore, these chemicals could react together in some unexpected way. It is best not to mix things that have not been tested *together*; this is essentially the same as using an untested chemical. Let the researchers use their bees as guinea pigs; if they contaminate the honey they can afford to dump it. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:10:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: ApiGuard, Menthol and Requeening- How to do all three? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-67395555 > Mixing it with menthol is probably NOT a good idea, as these products >presumably have never been tested together. ApiLife Var is Thymol, Menthol, and Eucalyptus oil Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date: 8/4/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 00:38:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: hay in sugar wate==disease spreadr? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If a colony has foulbrood and the bees visit the open feeder the spores could infest the water and be transported to other hives.. Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 07:27:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: ApiGuard, Menthol and Requeening- How to do all three? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes but in what proportions, and quantities? Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Palmer" > ApiLife Var is Thymol, Menthol, and Eucalyptus oil > > Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:55:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Fw: [BEE-L] ApiGuard, Menthol and Requeening- How to do all three? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McFawn" To: "'Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology'" Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 7:29 AM Subject: RE: [BEE-L] ApiGuard, Menthol and Requeening- How to do all three? > Why don't you just go ahead and purchase some. That way you know it is > the right mixture and it has been tested and it works > > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu] On > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:58:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Fw: [BEE-L] MS and bee stings. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lehr, Carl " To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:20 AM Subject: RE: [BEE-L] MS and bee stings. > Here in Maryland, Pat Wagner has an incredible story to tell regarding her > MS affliction and subsequent success with bee venom therapy. Here's her > info. Hope it helps. Dave > > Pat Wagner > 5431 Lucy Drive > Waldorf, MD 20601-3217 > (301) 843-8350 FAX (301) 645-0944 > Contact Pat At: beelady@olg.com > View Pat's Page At: www.olg.com/beelady. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 13:06:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Fw: [BEE-L] skunks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "DaveHamilton" To: "'Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology'" Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: RE: [BEE-L] skunks > Lift the hive higher so he/she has to stretch and expose their belly when > reaching .. The bees will leave a message > > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu] On > Behalf > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 13:07:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Fw: [BEE-L] Hot hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "DaveHamilton" To: "'Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology'" Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 6:17 AM Subject: RE: [BEE-L] Hot hives > I've had hives like that, come right out and greet you. I give those > hives > to my wife. > > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu] On > Behalf > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 22:45:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: ApiGuard, Menthol and Requeening- How to do allthree? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps because it is not licenced in Ireland. I am quite content to Apiguard by itself but the original message was about using Apiguard and Menthol, not about using ApiLife Var. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- > >> Why don't you just go ahead and purchase some. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 21:58:32 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Fischer Alchemy Subject: Re: skunks Another approach would be to simply take your male dog (or a friend's male dog) to the apiary with you on a regular basis. The dog will do what dogs always do - mark the territory. Skunks and other critters will give the area a wide berth. Look for tracks around the edges of the apiary, and you will see that the dog can establish and maintain a nice varmint-free DMZ around your hives. If you must put the dog on a leash and walk him around the perimeter to get him to mark the edges, do so. No muss, no fuss, and best of all, everyone comes through the experience alive. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: hay in sugar wate==disease spreadr? In-Reply-To: <000d01c6bb6d$98d4f380$6401a8c0@DanJan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:38 AM 8/9/2006, you wrote: >If a colony has foulbrood and the bees visit the open feeder the spores could infest the water and be transported to other hives. Unless there are abandoned hives in the area I think such a risk would be minimal. Your hivetool, hands (or gloves), and drifting/robbing bees are a much bigger risk. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:40:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: hay in sugar wate==disease spreadr? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >If a colony has foulbrood and the bees visit the open feeder the spores could infest the water and be transported to other hives. I doubt foulbrood spore concentration on bee bodies is high enough to transfer into the feed for other bees to carry back to their hives in sufficient concentration to cause an outbreak of foulbrood. There should be no spores in the feed unless you mix in honey from foulbrood colonies. What could potentially happen though is this: after the open feed is exhausted, greedy bees scatter looking for weak colonies to rob. If such colonies are weak due to a loss of brood to foulbrood, their contaminated honey will end up in the robbers' hives. Foulbrood spores are very numerous in the honey and wax of colonies with clinical symptoms of foulbrood. Some say though that you can take the bees [alone] from an infected colony, hold them in a box for 3 days [so they digest the honey with spores in their stomachs], shake them into new equipment and not get foulbrood symptoms. Winston published that bee stomachs filter out most spores [, pollens and other particles] in the honey in about an hour. I don't recommend this approach since the official NY state policy is to burn colonies with clinical symptoms. A lot of beekeepers inappropriately try to contain foulbrood with terramycin only to preserve and spread foulbrood. No, I don't believe opening feeding spreads disease but I know it results in a disproportionate distribution of the feed. Just like with nectar gathering, the strongest colonies will gather the lion share of the open feed. If the strong colonies have ample stores to start, they will plug up the entire nest as well. The needy colonies are not helped by this unless you later redistribute frames with stores. In-hive feeding, and only as needed, is the way to go. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:45:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: open feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There's been a lot of discussion on this list now about open feeding, and I agree with the concerns expressed about robbing, robbing leading to the spread of diseases, disproportionate and poorly directed feeding, etc., but I have yet to see any mention of what for me is the BIGGEST concern of all, namely contamination of honey. How many places are there in America where you can be sure that someone else within flying distance doesn't have any supers on his hives? I talk to *a lot* of beekeepers every week, and I know there are circumstances that might lead someone to have supers on his hives any month of the year. I really don't even think it's right to contaminate the honey in bee trees with syrup, let alone someone else's hives. If I'm feeding syrup in the open within flying distance of someone else's hives, it seems I'm telling all my neighbors that they don't have a right to have honey supers on their hives. Where do I get that right? (The one noteable exception I can think of are places like Montana where, as I understand it, beekeepers are excluded from establishing yards within 5 miles of other beekeepers' yards.) I think we ought to show a little more respect for our neighbors and not impose our way of doing things on them unilaterally. To my own shame, I speak from some (limited) experience. And along these same lines I have a story to re-tell from my nextdoor neighbor. He's older now, but when he was young there was a man that grew watermelons down by the river. (He still does.) My neighbor and one of his friends would swim down the river, steal the watermelons, and float them downstream to a store to sell them. To thwart the stealing the man that grew the watermelons put up a sign that read, "One of these watermelons has been poisoned." As the story goes, my neighbor and his friend put up another sign that read, "Two of these watermelons have been poisoned." Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:14:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: drone trapping comparison test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've got the first mite drop results from a rough experiment I've been running since about late March. As soon as my hives started raising drones I put a drone frame in each of my test hives. Before the drones hatched (with one or two failures on my part) I would remove the frame and immediately replace it with a spare frame. The drone were eliminated and the frames were frozen before returning. The drone trapping ended when my hives basically stopped raising drones about the second week of July. My results are as follows, expressed in terms of per 24 hour natural fall (my 48 hour count divided by 2): for the eleven control hives: 127.5, 117, 16, 12.5, 9.5, 10, 7.5, 68.5, 44, 21, 1 for the ten drone trapping hives: 31.5, 5.5, 11.5, 15.5, 6, 4.5, 4.5, 4.5, 4.5, 5.5 Of course, there are a lot more details that I could share, but I don't have time to present everything now. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:08:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: skunks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have skunks in most of my yards. Have used the same solution for 25 years with great results. Simply sprinkle about a teaspoon or less of lye crystals in the skunk-scratched soil in front of the hives. The crystals will absorb water and dissolve into the soil. Makes the soil taste bad. Skunks will stop immediately. If they move to another hive, treat that one, then they will give up entirely. Apparently doesn't hurt the skunks. I like to coexist with wildlife--even skunks and bears! In really bad skunk yards, I just walk down the front of all hives at move in and sprinkle lye. Occasionally is necessary to retreat after a rain. Used to find Red Devil lye at any grocery, but now must find lye crystals in the plumbing section of a hardware store. Randy Oliver Calif -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:32:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: drone trapping comparison test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks, Eric, for sharing your data. Mighty impressive! There is a hobbyist areound here who runs about a dozen hives and is on her fourth year with no treatment other than 'drone trapping'. I personally try to freeze 4 sets of drone brood per hive/per year. We normally get a full set for each month, April through October (seven months). I'd say I always get the first and second sets, which are the most critical, but miss one of the next three due to other beekeeping pressures. I do not have data, but have not lost a hive in August-October in several years and, to me, that says something good about keeping populations down. In the fall I have been treating with Mite-Away and this year I will add Oxalic in December/January. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:42:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nicholas S Behrens Subject: Eating honeybees? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This was a question my Entomology teach was asked, and then passed on to me, does anyone know anything I can tell him??? >I am a teacher in Kansas. I have a bee hive and discovered that >honeybees are delicious. I have not been able to find out any >information about the advisability of eating freshly killed >honeybees. Do you know anything about the subject? there really >should be recipes for honeybees since they are delicious! I have >talked a number of people into eating them with a tiny amount of >honey. Everybody agrees the bees have a delicious taste, completely >different from the honey. They are the best insect I have eaten. > thanks Nick Iowa State -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:43:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Ag Research Article Summary on DHS Newsletter In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060810174118.01e58210@nbehr.mail.iastate.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Department of Homeland Security publishes a daily newsletter, available at http://www.dhs.gov/infrastructuredailyreport. This article appeared in today's issue. August 09, Agricultural Research Service — Russian bees more resistant to mites. The bee has had a rough time of it lately. Parasitic mites are beating down this insect that's crucial for producing more than $15 billion worth of U.S. crops each year. But according to scientists with the Agricultural Research Service (ARS), there’s hope for American bees. It comes from the hills of southeast Russia. According to recent studies done at the ARS Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics and Physiology Research Unit, Russian bees are capable of deflecting three of the honeybee’s worst assailants: varroa mites, tracheal mites and cold temperatures. Ten years ago, ARS bee researchers led by Thomas Rinderer trekked through Russia’s Primorsky Territory in search of bees that could naturally hold their own against varroa mites. There, bees have become battle−hardened against the blood−sucking mite, which has been harassing Russian bees for more than 150 years. Since Russian bees were first imported by Rinderer, they have continued to impress researchers. In fact, ARS entomologist Jose Villa recently discovered just how the bees fend off tracheal mites, which kill honey bees by invading and clogging their airways. Villa and fellow ARS entomologist Lilia De Guzman have also confirmed that Russian bees are excellent cold−weather survivors. Source: http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=1261 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:55:00 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Eating honeybees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Everybody agrees the bees have a delicious taste, completely >different from the honey. They are the best insect I have eaten. Does think person eat adult bees or brood? In parts of Asia where protein is lacking, people often raise beees to specifically consume the brood. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:49:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: drone trapping comparison test In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-32D51BB > In the fall I have been treating with Mite-Away and this year I will add >Oxalic in December/January. Temperatures for treating with Oxalic Acid should be 5 deg above freezing. Will you reach this in December and January? Perhaps November would be a better time to treat. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date: 8/4/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:57:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Eating honeybees? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060810174118.01e58210@nbehr.mail.iastate.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:42 PM 8/10/2006, you wrote: >This was a question my Entomology teach was asked, and then passed on to me, does anyone know anything I can tell him??? >> I have not been able to find out any information about the advisability of eating freshly killed honeybees. Do you know anything about the subject? The online book "Value-Added Products from Beekeeping" ( http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e00.htm ) has some information on the topic, including nutritional facts (protein, fat, vitamin content), advice how to prepare them and recipes. (See chapter 8: http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e19.htm ) The insect zoo (part of the National Museum of Natrual History, http://www.insectzoo.msstate.edu/) has this to say: "Bees are consumed by Congolese, rural Thais, Laotians, and American Indians. Some German children in Lower Saxony also eat honey bees. These insects are commonly consumed as bee brood--a mix of bee larvae and pupae. When bee brood is baked, fried, or deep-fried, it becomes dry and flaky like a breakfast cereal. Deep-fried bees can taste nutty or caramelized, and they have been compared with sunflower seeds, shrimp, walnuts, Rice Krispies, or pork cracklings. Chocolate-covered bees and bees in syrup are considered a gourmet item in Mexico. These products are canned also for export. " -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:28:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Eating honeybees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you catch the drones, they do not have stingers and venom sacs. The removal of drones will not adversely affect the hive dynamics if you do not take them all. They are plumper also. If you can eat ants, honeybees should be a definite upgrade--no formic acid Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:15:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Eating honeybees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The UN's FAO publication 124 "Value Added Products from Beekeeping", chapter 8 pages 241-253 may be a starting point? http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e00.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicholas S Behrens" To: Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 6:42 PM Subject: [WL] [BEE-L] Eating honeybees? > This was a question my Entomology teach was asked, and then passed on > to me, does anyone know anything I can tell him??? > > > Iowa State > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:12:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: eating bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In reply to Mr Behr, a woman friend from my youth once presented me with = a honey bee dish which she said was a favorite on Mindinao (Phillipines) = it was prepared with milk and sweet. The bees were much larger than = ours. I am sure that if there are still people on the list who served = in the Phillipines during WW2 they could give you more details. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:16:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Eating honeybees? In-Reply-To: <002101c6bd4a$0d58a2a0$6401a8c0@DanJan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Dan&jan wrote: > The removal of drones will not adversely affect the hive dynamics if you > do not take them all. What makes you think that removing drones is not damaging ? Bees are not wasteful, they make the number of drones that they require, artificially removing them, disturbs the rhythm of what the bees consider 'normal'. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:09:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Eating honeybees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Bees are not wasteful, they make the number of drones that they require, artificially removing them, disturbs the rhythm of what the bees consider 'normal'. Absolutely. Drone trapping is taxing on a colony. Colonies will raise and maintain a certain number of drones in the warm months in order to have their genetics well represented in the drone congregation areas for local virgins' matings. If you remove a lot of drones, the bees will strive to raise replacements which of course requires resources (material, labor, and drone cells). I know that drone trapping helps to keep varroa numbers in check but the idea has little *moral* appeal to me. I hate achieving a goal by sacrificing the troops. :) Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:35:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - ">Used to find Red Devil lye at any grocery, but=". Rest of header flushed. From: walter weller Subject: Re: skunks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy said:=0D=0A=0D=0A>Used to find Red Devil lye at any grocery, but= now must find lye crystals in=0D=0A>the plumbing section of a hardwar= e store.=0D=0A=0D=0AReason is nobody mops wooden floors with lye any m= ore. (Dissolves the grease, you know.)=0D=0A=0D=0AWalter Weller=0D=0A= =0D=0A= -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: open feeding In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Brown wrote: > but > I have yet to see any mention of what for me is the BIGGEST concern of all, > namely contamination of honey. Sugar is sucrose which the bees break down (somewhat) to fructose and glucose. Nectar is sucrose, fructose and glucose with one or more sugar predominate. Not quite sure how feeding bees sugar syrup in the spring as a supplemental feed contaminates honey since some flowers are predominantly sucrose. But I will post those flowers with no trespassing signs to keep my bees away so they do not contaminate my honey. Glad to know that many beekeepers keep supers on all the time, so will do so this winter. Might get some surplus honey. I learn so much from this list. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:20:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: response to drone trapping comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:16:18 +0100, Dave Cushman wrote: >What makes you think that removing drones is not damaging ? Bees are not >wasteful, they make the number of drones that they require, artificially >removing them, disturbs the rhythm of what the bees consider 'normal'. I'm skeptical of this line of reasoning. Can I then say, bees are not wasteful, they make the amount of honey that they require, artificially removing it disturbs the rhythm of what the bees consider 'normal'? In fact, isn't the whole idea of *keeping* bees to achieve something that isn't 'normal,' which is to say something other than what would occur in the wild? Besides which, what if the usefulness of those particular drones isn't especially useful to me? Can my advantage not diverge from the supposed 'advantage of the bees' to any degree at all? On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:09:28 GMT, waldig@netzero.com wrote: >Drone trapping is taxing on a colony. Colonies will >raise and maintain a certain number of drones in the warm months in >order to have their genetics well represented in the drone >congregation areas for local virgins' matings. > >If you remove a lot of drones, the bees will strive to raise >replacements which of course requires resources (material, labor, and >drone cells). That's a possibility, but it's far from self-evident to me. I think the question is where the feedback takes place, by which I mean do the workers maintain a certain amount of drone comb, or does the queen lay a certain number of unfertilized eggs, or does the colony seek to feed a certain amount of drone brood, or does the colony seek to achieve a certain level of mature drones, or how do these multiple factors combine, or what other factors are there? Until we can answer that question, I think it's highly speculative to say what the 'energy cost' of removing a frame of drones is. My experience actually leads me to suspect that removing and replacing a frame of drones about to emerge doesn't lead to an attempt by the hive to raise replacements (at least not beyond the replacement drone frame that I put in the old one's place), but I'd certainly be interested in seeing more research on the subject. >I know that drone trapping helps to keep varroa numbers in check but >the idea has little *moral* appeal to me. I hate achieving a goal by >sacrificing the troops. :) I wouldn't call what I do sacrificing the troops to a false god; I feed them to the chickens. I also don't see any basis for 'moral' qualms about it, but it's a fair amount of work, and I'm still not sure if the mite kill is sufficient to justify the labor cost, especially labor with strict calendar deadlines. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:25:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: levels of genetic selection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:58:18 -0400, Peter Borst wrote: >If they had the egg stealing trait, would this lead to their survival and >the perpetuation of this trait? Of course not. They would survive as a >colony, but the trait would not be retained because the blood line of the >colony has been replaced by that of another colony! > >Contrast this with the trait for stealing honey from other hives. If >colonies lacked this trait, they could starve when they ran out of food >supplies; if they have this trait, they gain an advantage. > >An advantage allows them to outcompete other colonies and therefore the >trait would be passed on to future generations. A trait for egg stealing >will never be passed on. If the colony simply perishes -- or if it survives >by stealing eggs -- the net result is the same: that blood line is finished. First, I hope the moderators will allow the long quote. I've been wondering about genetic selection mechanisms, and Waldemar's and Dave's recent posts on the subject of removing drones has brought me back to some similar thoughts. It seems in the quote above that Peter assumes that all genetic selection takes place at the colony level, and particularly not on any larger level. This seems questionable to me. Incidentally, I am very skeptical of "egg stealing," but that has nothing to do with what I'm wanting to say here. What I want to ask here is whether there couldn't be any genetic advantage to a trait that didn't perpetuate the exact blood line of the specific colony. In other words, is it possible that a trait could help perpetuate a race or a whole "family" of colonies without perpetuating the direct blood line of the colony exhibiting the trait? Although this kind of behavoir would seemingly have to be a very minor selection factor, I'm inclined to think it's a possibility. The examples I had in mind were the "egg stealing" of the previous thread and, secondly, a non-robbing trait. Let me give a human analogy to "egg stealing." Say one group of people has a cultural practice of adopting the orphaned children of relatives. Compare that group with another group that allows its orphans to die. Could the group with orphan adopting trait not theoretically gain a genetic advantage? I guess what I'm saying is: is there no genetic advantage to perpetuating the blood line of a close relative? Or on an even larger level, is there no genetic advantage to perpetuating the species as a whole? As for non-robbing, I was thinking that while robbing could be an advantage to particular colonies, robbing could be inefficient behavoir for a whole population (of all the colonies in an area.) In other words, while one colony might benefit, all the colonies would suffer a net loss of production, because energy would be devoted to zero-sum-gain activity that might otherwise be devoted to net-sum-gain activity. I'm not trying to say this would *necessarily* be a genetic disadvantage, but it could be, couldn't it, at least as one factor? Couldn't the advantage of greater- than-colony level groupings matter at all in genetic selection? Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:32:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: NAIS and beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Any truth to the rumors that while chips are out for bees now, that barcodes and labels are in for tagging equipment/colonies and making big headway in EU and Nordic States for beekeeping animal ID? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:45:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: levels of genetic selection In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric writes: What I want to ask here is whether there couldn't be any genetic advantage to a trait that didn't perpetuate the exact blood line of the specific colony. Reply: Yes, as for perpetuating race/strain in a way. Also what is an exact blood line of a specific colony you talk about since a queen can mate with 10-17 drones? What specific blood line are you referencing in this instance? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:50:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Beekeepers field day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Event: 10th Annual Beekeeper Field Day Date: November 04, 2006 Description: The staff of the USDA, ARS Honey Bee Breeding Laboratory, in cooperation with the Louisiana State Beekeepers’ Association invites you to the 10th Annual Field Day on Saturday, November 4, 2006 at our facility in Baton Rouge. Contact Info : Dr. Jose D. Villa USDA, ARS Honey-Bee Lab. 1157 Ben Hur Road Baton Rouge, LA 70820-5502 http://www.ars.usda.gov/news/events.htm?eventid=529&modecode=64-13-30-00 -- Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:43:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: open feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:09:59 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >But I will post those flowers with no trespassing >signs to keep my bees away so they do not contaminate my honey. Perhaps I should have said adulterate or dilute. Bottom line: I and most everyone else value honey much more highly than syrup. I want my honey to be honey, not syrup, not 10% syrup, not 2% syrup. The idea that we can adulterate honey with syrup because it has a similar chemical analysis seems pretty weak. >Glad to know that many beekeepers keep supers on all the time, so will >do so this winter. Might get some surplus honey. First of all, I'm not talking about winter in Maine, because I assume the bees aren't flying, which means you wouldn't be able to open feed either, right? In fact, I assume 90%+ of open feeding takes place at times (like in the fall) when the bees are still foraging and collecting some nectar. But the idea of having harvestable honey on the hive in winter isn't so far out there either, and that's my point: I don't think our assumptions about how bees are managed should dictate to our neighbors how and when they can produce pure honey from their own hives. Checkerboarding, for instance, is an idea that's had a lot of publicity, and it involves spreading overwintered frames throughout the honey supers, if I understand the idea correctly. I don't do that, but I'd like to be free to do so with my own bees if I chose. As another example, I've seen some research (I believe from Harbo?) recently about optimal bee per liter numbers which might suggest putting supers on hives at times when a surplus might not be expected. On a simpler level, I know beekeepers that keep hives in places where they don't get to very often, and they sometimes harvest their honey really late. Or perhaps more significant, beekeepers that don't use pesticides might want to produce a fall crop. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:58:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Eating honeybees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess I figured that removing drones for mite control would be in the same category. I guess I stand corrected Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:05:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: open feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello to all, Boy, this has been a hot subject here on BEE-L. Here are a few of my own observations,=20 plugging out the brood nest, I feed the first round, one gallon thin syrup then wait two weeks, by = that time queenee has layed up as much as she is going to and then feed = heavier and as much as you need. When open style feeding the bees, the bees will start filling from the = bottom up, just the opposite happens when feeding top or inside feeding = type. It is a very quick way of feeding, a thousand gallons in two hours is no = problem. The ranch I winter on is 40 thousand acres (10 square miles) you do need = to be careful not to have other bees near you. It probably isn't the best way by beekeeping standards, but in this day = and age, on feed lot style feeding it is a fast economical way with no = labor.If some of the smaller ones still don't get enough spot feed the = rest.It is crucial to get the feed down in the brood nest before winter = set in because pollen patties are just around the corner.We put = medication & fumagillin-B in the mix.If your worry about spreading = dieses ,we burn as we find it .=20 Hope you all are busy pulling honey this fall. Keith Jarrett Calif. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:32:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: Eating honeybees? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Nick comments: Do you know anything about the subject? there really >>should be recipes for honeybees since they are delicious! There are some, Do a Google on bee brood + human consumption -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:08:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: levels of genetic selection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > As for non-robbing, I was thinking that while robbing could be an advantage to particular colonies, robbing could be inefficient behavoir for a whole population (of all the colonies in an area.) In other words, while one colony might benefit, all the colonies would suffer a net loss of production, because energy would be devoted to zero-sum-gain activity that might otherwise be devoted to net-sum-gain activity. Reply: But are you not now assuming that there is some "benefit" for the species to have large numbers of colonies? It seems fairly obvious that fewer, stronger colonies would be a better scenario for the species than a large number of colonies competing for the same resources. It appears that robbing is a good example of how the individual colony is trying to prevail, at the expense of any and all others. Where this would lead, perhaps, is fewer and fewer more powerful colonies, -- but this is offset by swarming. When you think about it, you might wonder why a colony should swarm at all? Why not just become bigger and bigger? In nature, though, honey bee colonies do not become huge; perhaps there is an average size that is most efficient for the colony -- neither too small, nor too large. But of course, we know that there has to be a minimum number of individuals in a population or they become so inbred that they can go extinct. So there is a maximum and a minimum number of individuals of a species can survive. The complicated system of outcrossing that honey bees have seems to have arisen to prevent inbreeding where there are a small number of colonies. By the way, so far as I know, there are no final answers on any of this. Science is process of discovery. There will always be more to be found out, to be learned, and perhaps to be unlearned as new information is uncovered! pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:44:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: levels of genetic selection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Evolutionary biology is probably too big a subject to do justice in brief emails shot back and forth, but here is some relative info on individual vs group and/or species selection. Note particularly the implications of group selection in the parasite that is mentioned. * Selection at the level of individual organism Selection at the level of the organism can be described as Darwinism, and is well understood and considered common. When a gazelle, for instance, has a trait that allows it to run faster than others and therefore to avoid predators more effectively so that ultimately it manages to stay alive longer and reproduce over more breeding seasons, the causation of the higher fitness of this gazelle can be accounted for fully only if one looks at how individual gazelles fare under predation so one can come to the conclusion that the faster gazelle's speed allows it to avoid predation better. * Selection at the level of the group Specific syndromes of selective factors can create situations in which groups are selected because they display group properties which are selected-for. Some mosquito-transmitted rabbit viruses, for instance, are only transmitted to uninfected rabbits from infected rabbits which are still alive. This creates a selective pressure on every group of viruses already infecting a rabbit not to become too virulent and kill their host rabbit before enough mosquitoes have bitten it, since otherwise all the viruses inside the dead rabbit would rot with it. And indeed in natural systems such viruses display much lower virulence levels than do mutants of the same viruses that in laboratory culture readily outcompete non-virulent variants (or than do tick-transmitted viruses since ticks do bite dead rabbits). * Species selection and selection at higher taxonomic levels That selection can operate at and above the level of species remains controversial among biologists. One particular defender of the idea of species selection is S.J. Gould who has proposed the view that there exist macroevolutionary processes which shape evolution at and above the level of species and are not driven by the microevolutionary mechanisms that are stressed by the Modern Synthesis. If one views species as individuals that replicate (speciate) and die (go extinct), then species could be subject to selection and thus could change their occurrence over geological time, much as heritable selected-for traits change theirs over the generations. For evolution to be driven by species selection, however, the patterns of differential persistence of species over geological time must be the result of selection for species-intrinsic properties rather than for properties of genes, cells, individuals, or populations of the species involved. In other words, species must be shown to have been units of selection whose properties were directly evaluated by selection. While the fossil record clearly shows differential persistence of species, examples of species-intrinsic properties subject to natural selection have been much harder to document. SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_selection -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:04:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: NAIS and beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/08/2006 12:59:13 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: that barcodes and labels are in for tagging equipment/colonies and making big headway in EU and Nordic States for beekeeping animal ID? Bees are naturally designed to be identified by bar code readers. As an example an automatic bar code reader placed at a hive entrance and linked to a computer could be used to identify the patrilines that do most work. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:17:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: open feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps, to ensure absolute confidence that you aren't inadvertently adulterating later honey crops with syrup, food dye should be added to the feed whether open fed or not. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:01:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: response to drone trapping comments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric > I'm skeptical of this line of reasoning. Can I then say, bees are > not wasteful, they make the amount of honey that they require, > artificially removing it disturbs the rhythm of what the bees > consider 'normal'? There is a flaw in this... Bees are opportunists and will gather as much honey as they can (for a rainy day), the keyword here is 'surplus', bees can survive on 'X' amount of honey, if, by their diligence, they achieve 4X amount of honey, then they can still survive if 3X is taken away. This is the premise that beekeeping is founded upon and if it were wrong then we would have seen bee stocks dwindling over the thousand or so years that we have any sort of record of. Going back to the drones, the numbers require to be high, because only something like one in 200 of them ever get the chance to mate in their lifetime. The biggest problem for drones is the erroneous human observation (of a century or so ago) that drones are 'lazy' or 'useless' which colours beekeeper's judgement even through to the present day. > Besides which, what if the usefulness of those particular drones > isn't especially useful to me? Regardless of whether you require the drones for breeding purposes, you will gain more of a honey crop from bees whose needs for drones are satisfied, than from colonies that are under artificial stresses, due to shortage of drones. There is another portion of your post that deals with 'beekeeper requirements' versus 'bees requirements'. I can see that beekeeper's agendas may be different to the bees needs, but it is still worthwhile to work on the basis that if you work 'with' the bees, you will achieve more than by trying to work 'against' them. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:23:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: open feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:17:54 EDT, Chris Slade wrote: >Perhaps, to ensure absolute confidence that you aren't inadvertently >adulterating later honey crops with syrup, food dye should be added to > the feed whether open fed or not. It sounds like a reasonable idea. The results would certainly be interesting, one way or the other. Is anyone going to try? Maybe the NHB should send out free dye. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:53:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: response to drone trapping comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dave, >if, by their diligence, they achieve 4X amount of honey, then they can > still survive if 3X is taken away. But why 4X? Why not 10X or 100X? It seems to me that enough and a little extra just in case is all that bees have an incentive to naturally produce. After that, why not produce more offspring (swarms) instead of producing extravagant surpluses? Is it natural for any wild animal to produce four times as much milk as its babies need? I suppose squirels might store away far more nuts than they need, but they have issues of waste and competition that are different. >This is the premise that beekeeping is founded upon and if it were wrong >then we would have seen bee stocks dwindling over the thousand or so >years that we have any sort of record of. I'm not sure I followed your point here. Are you saying that beekeepers have over most of the last thousand or so years simply robbed surpluses, and that populations managed that way haven't suffered? I'm inclined to think that a lot of my manipulations as a beekeeper should be aimed at redirecting the bees from swarming to extravagant honey production. And by providing hives, by putting queens in otherwise doomed colonies, by making divides in ways that are more efficient than natural colony reproduction (i.e. swarming), etc., I can compensate for hindering their reproduction. >Regardless of whether you require the drones for breeding purposes, you >will gain more of a honey crop from bees whose needs for drones are >satisfied, than from colonies that are under artificial stresses, due to >shortage of drones. You say this pretty definitively. I've heard things like this a number of times, but I've never really understood why people say this? Assuming this is true, is the mechanism (an explanation) known? Even if it's true, if we don't know what the mechanism is, it seems we might find a way around the issue. We do lots of other things to 'fool' the bees: we switch positions of hives to strengthen weak colonies, we use various 'tricks' to get colonies to accept foreign queens, etc., etc. Why, when it comes to drones, do we have to just submit? >it is still worthwhile >to work on the basis that if you work 'with' the bees, you will achieve >more than by trying to work 'against' them. Certainly, but I think part of this is 'convincing' the bees to work 'with' you. I don't want to be working 'against' them, but I'd rather they work 'with' me than for me to work 'with' them. Is that a valid distinction? Thanks for playing these thoughts out with me. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:53:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Eating honeybees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In addition to the online book Tim and Keith mentioned, the book ‘Entertaining with Insects’ by Ronald L. Taylor is available for a reasonable price from used booksellers. The book has recipes for several insects including honey bees. Some of those tasty sounding recipes include: Cricket Crisps, Beetle Sausage, Honey Bee Souffle´, Insect a l’Escargot, Cricket Pot Pie, Honey Bee Granola Bars. Also in the small book are instructions on raising your own insects as a food source, including rearing wax moths, Galleria mellonella (as if beekeepers don’t already know how to raise those!) Bon Appetit´ Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:52:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: open feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Sugar is sucrose... Nectar is sucrose, fructose and glucose with one or more sugar predominate. Last time I checked the good books, floral nectar was a bit more than a bunch of sugars... ;-) One reason, I like using my own honey only. I feed in the spring very spraringly - only if the weather stayed bad for a long time which is not often - and let the bees build up on the natural flow. But I know at least one beekeeper who feeds with abandon and then brags about tons of lily-white *honey*. Thanks but no thanks. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:53:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Should I be concerned? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I removed a large, thriving colony out of the hollow empty space above a large picture window yesterday. The homeowner told me there had been a honey bee colony on the left side above the window. She killed that colony with a wasp spray 2 years ago. The new colony I removed, was on the right side above the same window. The hollow above the picture window is one hollow. The window is about 8' wide. The colony on the right that I removed had lots of stores - in fact, I collected 12 shopping bags of comb honey (a record for me) - and a large brood nest with very healthy looking larvae and a very good brood pattern (although I saw some shriveled wings and varroa). My question is: is the honey good for human and/or bee consumption? I know the nectar from this year was not contaminated but could the wax in the new colony absorb chemicals through travel stains or from the air and release them into this year's honey? Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:46:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: open feeding In-Reply-To: <20060812.115315.713.450005@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: But I know at least one beekeeper who feeds with abandon and then brags about tons of lily-white *honey*. Thanks but no thanks. Waldemar The secret here is to know when to stop spring feeding so that the feed does not migrate into the subsequent honey that is used for our purposes. If the beekeeper desires to build up colony strength so that he can harvest the early spring flow as honey, he needs to start feeding about five to six weeks before the anticipated spring nectar flow and also ensure that the colonies have adequate pollen stores to supplement the syrup feeding for brood rearing. Here in Alabama our early spring flow will start at the end of January into middle February. This means that we need to start feeding at the end of December to initiate increased brood rearing. Our weather, at least here in lower Alabama (LA), is such that the bees generally have flight weather at least one day a week and usually four or five days a week. A beekeeper further north of me tells me that he does this each year, builds up his colony populations very early and generally harvests over 150 pounds of honey per colony. Now, the feeding stops about a week to two weeks before the supers are added so that any syrup honey made by the bees is either used for brood/hive feed or is capped and so there is no danger of the honey being contaminated by what was fed earlier. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 13:19:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: response to drone trapping comments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric A few more playful thoughts... >>if, by their diligence, they achieve 4X amount of honey, then they can >>still survive if 3X is taken away. > > But why 4X? Why not 10X or 100X? It seems to me that enough and a > little extra just in case is all that bees have an incentive to > naturally produce. It may not be apparent to US beekeepers who have the benefit of a considerable and reasonably steady honey flow, but Bees did not originate in the Americas, they were endemic in the area that I live in, which has a nectar production that is low and switches on and off many times per day. Under these conditions it is possible for a normal healthy colony that has not swarmed to make a net loss on honey in a season, but these conditions only occur about every five or so years, rarely would they occur two years in succession. > I'm inclined to > think that a lot of my manipulations as a beekeeper should be aimed at > redirecting the bees from swarming to extravagant honey production. Unfortunately the present day has been preceded by a long era of skep beekeeping that has selected for the excessive swarminess of the bees we have today. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:18:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hugo_Thone?= Subject: new queen takes 5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I introduced young (mated) queens in 3 production hives on july 20. Two queens continued laying egg's and built a nice brood nest. The third one didn't lay one single egg and the bees did not gather any pollen. I noticed that the bees where cleaning cells as if they were preparing a new brood nest. Now all old brood has emerged and since a day or two, I see some bees entering with pollen, so I guess this one started laying eggs eventually. Is there any reason why queens sometimes wait until all brood is emerged before they start laying fresh eggs ? cheers, Hugo (half a bee) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:20:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: new queen takes 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hugo wrote: >The third one didn't lay one single egg and the bees did not gather any >pollen. I noticed > that the bees where cleaning cells as if they were preparing a new brood > nest. Now all old brood has emerged and since a day or two, I see some > bees > entering with pollen, so I guess this one started laying eggs eventually. Are you sure that the queen that you introduced is still there? Was she marked? I would suggest that a possible explanation is that there was a new queen (virgin or newly-mated, but not yet laying - perhaps they were superseding) in the hive when you introduced your queen. Your queen would have been killed immediately and the new queen has now started to lay. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:26:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: new queen takes 5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:18:20 -0400, Hugo Thone wrote: >Is there any reason why queens sometimes wait until all brood is emerged >before they start laying fresh eggs ? The most likely explanation is that the queen you introduced was killed and the colony has raised one on their own. Certainly enough time has elapsed. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:55:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: new queen takes 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hugo, You may need to check in a few days to make sure you do not have a laying worker. The hive may have killed the queen and a worker has started laying. Or the queen may be a drone layer, which in any case I would keep close watch on this one. You did not say where you are located, this hot and dry weather we are having in Alabama, has slowed the brood rearing process. If the hive did not have sufficient stores of honey and pollen the queen may not start laying. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:08:56 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron & Eefje Subject: Re: new queen takes 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hugo Thone wrote: > Is there any reason why queens sometimes wait until all brood is emerged > before they start laying fresh eggs ? Could it be that in fact the queen did not wait at all with her laying of eggs, but that some of the eggs or sperm that she carried and used at the time was infertile? Was the reason for the bees to clean those cells perhaps the fact that bad eggs had just recently been removed from them? Regards, Ron van Mierlo -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:18:48 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Do queens need R and R? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reading the "new queen takes 5" string has stimulated another question = in my mind related to queen physiology. Our climate here in Western = Australia is usually described as "warm temperate", or "Mediteranean". = Because of this and the abundant melliferous flora, our hives can be = producing all year, and the queens will continue to lay all year, except = in what can be described as unusual circumstances. Migratory beekeeping = means that the hives are moved to new sites with strong flow conditions = as soon as the conditions start to decline on their current sites. This = means that the queens almost never get to take a rest from intensive egg = laying. Sure we see variations in activity in response to day length and = temperature fluctuations, but in real terms, for her its a full-time job = with no holidays, no days off, no sickies! Net result is that we do wear = them out quickly, and for most commercial honey producers here, annual = replacement is a fact of life. The question is, would a holiday give = them a new lease of life? Would, say a month or so on cool dearth = conditions, where the colony survived on stores without foraging, and = the queen shut down laying, reinvigorate both the queen and the hive to = the point where annual replacement would not be required? Would any = other benefits accrue to the hive (and the beekeeper) that would make = this an attractive option? I know this is an experiment I can easily try, but there is so much = experience here on this list that I am sure someone will have an = interesting and scientifically valid response! Peter Detchon Western Australia -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:24:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: hay in sugar wate==disease spreadr? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think Tim and Waldemar's thoughts are about right. There is little chance of spreading AFB by open feeding. While I was a NYS Inspector we were told of a project at Penn State where they tried to inoculate brood with AFB with a hive tool. They apparently went so far as to coat the end of the hive tool with diseased brood and then scrape the result onto brood of the right age. They could not infect a single larvae! Hands, hive tools and gloves and unlikely infection sources as are bee bodies. On the other hand, if one does not treat hive prophylacticly AND has the odd hive or frame of AFB every year or so, the likely source is an infected hive in the area. Moreover, it is possible the bees/larvae in that hive are more or less immune to AFB. In such a case it is possible that extensive robbing as part of or after the feeding could spread the AFB more than it otherwise would. Otherwise, I don't think that open feeding is at all likely to spread disease. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:41:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: New Book on Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Asian Honey Bees: Biology, Conservation and Human Interactions by Benjamin P. Oldroyd and Siriwat Wongsiri Harvard University Press: 2006. reviewed by Francis L. W. Ratnieks http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v442/n7100/full/442249a.html excerpts: > These studies have also discovered examples of nature at its most wonderful, of which two deserve a mention here. > Workers of A. cerana defend their nest against giant hornets by encasing the hornet in a living ball of bees, which generate heat and literally cook the hornet to death before it can send a pheromone signal to recruit more hornets to the attack. Indeed, the scout hornet's pheromone alerts the bees. > Colonies of giant honeybees, A. dorsata, often migrate 100 km. At certain times of the year the bees abandon their nesting trees, flying to better areas for a season before returning. Genetic studies show that the same colony with the same queen may return months later to the same tree. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:35:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: open feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>so that any syrup honey made by the bees is either used for brood/hive feed or is capped and so there is no danger of the honey being contaminated by what was fed earlier. Mike, while I agree with most of what you've said, I must point out that bees will uncap cured sugar syrup and move it right up into the supers as they expand the broodnest. And they will do it very quickly. One can't assume they will use it exclusively for brood-rearing at all. In fact, bees will first use incoming nectar to feed the brood and move the already cured honey/syrup up into the supers above the brood nest. Why should they dilute the cured stuff and then evaporate the incoming nectar? It would not make sense - it would be extra, unnecessary work for the bees. I think it's good to stimulate brood rearing but not with the vast amounts of of sugar syrup some folks use. You should always adjust the amount of feed to the number of covering bees. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:08:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Do queens need R and R? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Net result is that we do wear them out quickly, and for most commercial honey producers here, annual replacement is a fact of life. I've always wondered about the claimed need to replace queens annually... Is this based on the claims of queen producers? ;o)) In my neck of the woods, most good queens will not show an appreciable decline for 2-3 years. Perhaps in Austrialian conditions where flow conditions exist year round, queens exhaust themselves quicker? Perhaps, as you suggest, a winter lull such as in the northern US, give queens a chance to recoup after a busy season? You raise some interesting questions. It would be nice to survey more Australian beekeepers about on this. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:55:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Do queens need R and R? In-Reply-To: <20060814.060905.15626.557329@webmail04.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:08 AM 8/14/2006, you wrote: >I've always wondered about the claimed need to replace queens >annually... Is this based on the claims of queen producers? ;o)) I'm assuming it's to maximize production and to reduce problems such as swarming, etc. According to studies done by Sue Cobey (Columbus, OH) she was seeing queens lasting 18 months (average) both for open mated and instrumentally inseminated queens in full production hives. It seems their longevity is tied pretty closely to how much sperm they store and how many eggs they lay. In small nucs they can last much longer as breeders in Europe have observed. Naturally mated queens stored 3 to 6 million sperm, and II queens 4-5 million (possibly less than NM but more consistent) We also know that queens actually release 5-10 sperm for each egg fertilized. Now assuming an average of 1500 eggs a day for 6 months out of the year. This means the queen could last 2.22 years before failing completely, though we do know they get pretty poor and often are superceded well before they run out of sperm completely. (30days/month * 6 months/year * 7.5 sperm/egg * 1500 eggs/day = 2.025mil/4.5mill=2.22 years) (Some assumptions are from http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/beepop/life.html ) Now for queens worked year long this is little more than a year's worth of sperm (and just short of a year's worth at 4million). So it does seem to make sense to me and does seem to match the longevity observed (even the queen that's productive for 3 years with 6 million sperm). Of course there are other factors at play (disease, etc.) And I do wonder if some queens consistently have more muscle control and release fewer sperm than others (thus having a longer life). Could this be something that can be selected for? -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:17:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: new queen takes 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/08/2006 01:21:14 GMT Standard Time, ron-eefje@TELE2.SE writes: Hugo Thone wrote: > Is there any reason why queens sometimes wait until all brood is emerged > before they start laying fresh eggs ? What else happens during that waiting period? The house bees of the time of introduction mature and become foragers, while their young sisters emerge who know only the new queen. Could it be that the 'worker police' (see Prof Ratnieks' work at Sheffield University) are removing the eggs for reasons known only to themselves, but upon which it is fun to speculate? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:13:30 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Do queens need R and R? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You raise some interesting questions. It would be nice to survey > more Australian beekeepers about on this. At the risk of being accused of being biased as I am a queen bee breeder, I can assure you that under Australian conditions, particularly those in Queensland, there are a lot of very successful commercial honey producers who have based their operations on annual requeening. >From my own experience, I keep about 5 of the best producers from one year for use in my breeding program. I know this because I have a record of the number of supers that come off hives because of my barrier system. It happens that those queens that produce the most honey for the season are " always" well behind in production for the next season when I compare them to hives that have been requeened in the previous autumn. These kept queens are now just past 17 months of age whereas the requeened hives are headed by queens that are 5 months old. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---