From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:30:07 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-84.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0815E49095 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SF1MMS014128 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0612A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 179889 Lines: 4243 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 07:56:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Use In-Reply-To: <0A7DC92F-2C0F-43E6-809A-463DC818AADF@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bob darrell wrote: > > Resistance to various chemicals is documented, but I have never seen > any reports of resistance to Formic acid or Oxalic. > Takes time. There were no reports of tolerance to any of the other pesticides until the mites developed it. The shorter the generation, the faster the tolerance, which is why scientists love to study fruit flies. It seems that ten or so years is the norm for Varroa reacting to something completely new, like Apistan. And, as Randy said, a mix of treatments will go a long way to keeping tolerance from occurring. I use the term tolerance instead of resistance because that is more of what happens. You might have resistance in some of the mites but not all, so you still get kills even with Apistan and a "resistant" colony. In fact, Apistan is still used to get a quick mite drop count in field trials. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 08:45:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Digitizing First 20 Volumes of ABJ Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed An exciting opportunity exists for American beekeepers to help make spectacular volumes from the E. F. Phillips Beekeeping Collection at Cornell University's Albert R. Mann Library available to the public via the World Wide Web. The Phillips Collection, inspired by Cornell professor Everett Franklin Phillips, is a major repository of information on bees and beekeeping. It is one of the three major apiculture library collections in the United States and includes several thousand volumes, many published before 1900. The Phillips Collection features many volumes from the personal library of L.L. Langstroth, who popularized the moveable frame hive. Among these are Munn's Description of the bar-and-frame hive (1844), Mills' Essay on the management of bees (1766), Gelieu's Bee preserver (1829) and Townley's Practical treatise on humanity to honey bees (1848.) Although Prof. Phillips initiated the collection, beekeepers themselves supplied the funds for the library's growth by contributing the proceeds of designated hives. These donations established an endowment that today continues to support new acquisitions of modern apicultural materials for the collection. In return, Phillips intended the library to be a storehouse of knowledge for the beekeeping community. Seventy-five years after working beekeepers helped Phillips create his library, a new generation of apiculturalists is leading efforts to digitize major parts of that collection. In April 2004, Mann Library launched The Hive and the Honeybee (http:// bees.library.cornell.edu/), a new and growing online collection of the most important historical publications in beekeeping. The idea for The Hive and the Honeybee emerged following the 2002 conference of the EasternApiculture Society, which was held that year on the Cornell University campus in Ithaca. Individual beekeepers and beekeeping organizations from around the country responded generously to a seed challenge announced by the Eastern Apiculture Society in Fall 2003. Their contributions made the creation of The Hive and the Honeybee possible. Now the Tampa Bay Beekeepers Association (TBBA) is offering another exciting challenge to help grow the online collection. The TBBA will match all new gifts in support of The Hive and the Honeybee on a 1:1 basis up to $1000. The Hive and the Honeybee presently consists of the full text of ten books from the Phillips Collection, chosen by a team of scholars for their historical importance and usefulness to beekeepers today. The collection will grow as funding allows, and it is hoped that eventually it will contain every major pre-1925 beekeeping work in the English language. To make a donation in support of The Hive and the Honeybee digital collection, please fill out the form below and send it along with your gift to the address given. You will receive written acknowledgement of your contribution, and the support of you and the Tampa Bay Beekeepers Association will be recognized on the Hive website. If you have any questions or for more information on the digitization of the Phillips Beekeeping Collection, please contact Janet McCue, Director of Mann Library, at (607) 255-2285 or jam7@cornell.edu. Thank you for your interest and your support! I wish to make a gift of $________________ in support of The Hive and the Honeybee at Mann Library. Name_______________________________________________ Address____________________________________ City______________________ State & Zip_________ I can also answer questions about this as I have been sending out solicitations to beekeepers! Our current target is the first 20 Volumes (1861-1880) of ABJ Mike Griggs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 10:47:17 -0600 Reply-To: john@outdoorplace.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Caldeira Subject: Prokopovych Beekeeping Museum: Virtual Tour In-Reply-To: <2F90BA0D-AB13-4FB6-B69B-042A10317BC5@cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Those interested in beekeeping art, history and technology are invited to view a photo album virtual tour of the Prokopovych Beekeeping Museum in Kyiv, Ukraine. This beekeeping museum is among the best in the world, named after reknowned beekeeper Petro Prokopovych. These photos we taken in June, 2006. http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/slideshow?ID=556138744 (Click the 'play' arrow to start the slide show) Sincerely, John Caldeira John Caldeira 972-890-3725 (mobile) http://www.outdoorplace.org -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 17:00:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Vote for Waldo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 104 years of age, please vote for Waldo... http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/01/assignment_america/main2221629.shtml ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 21:32:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Open Air Feral Honeybee Nest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Joe and Everyone, Thanks for the natural comb photos. I have seen a few colonies like that one in my area. I think the lack of suitable nesting sites is a factor. Maybe they just could not get a consensus and stayed where they had clustered. For, like that colony, the ones I have seen seldom have any stored honey and will not survive. A close inspection of the last picture shows the variation in cell size found in natural comb. The general structure can be seen. But any assessment of cell size or spacing would need more control that these shots allow. There is just too much room for distortion and it lacks any kind of scale. The outer comb appears to have cell sizes that increase vertically. With the smaller cells toward the top of that comb. It could be possible. But it could also be a good indication of a high degree of distortion caused by a high angle photo shot and the curvature of the camera lens. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 18:35:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob , Bob wrote, > The question of publishing articles about methods of treatment not yet > registered has been problematic for both ABJ & BC. I would have to agree, I know a keeper that is using a/o in a smokers type method(blower)and is very happy with it. The dribble method is to slow, if your a large outfit and short on time. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:58:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Bob wrote, >> The question of publishing articles about methods of treatment not yet >> registered has been problematic for both ABJ & BC. Hi Bob, Joe Graham and I discussed this issue at length re oxalic acid. It is largely a judgement issue. If the treatment has been well tested elsewhere, and proven to be effective, safe, and not to contaminate the honey or the hive, then it would be reasonable to publish details. Joe and I decided that it would be timely to go ahead and publish information that is readily available. I was cautioned by some authorities to remove references to my own considerable experience in using OA, which I did. The oxalic issue is a tough case, since the ABF is paying to get it registered, and will be selling premeasured doses to help recoup costs. I mention this in the next article, as I found out the details after deadline. I don't want to take away sales from an organization that went to bat for beekeepers in registering OA, but also know that many will buy the generic product. On the other hand, it would be irresponsible to publish the trade name of the product which contains the active ingredient of Hivastan. Some will figure it out anyway, and I hope we don't have them dumping it into beehives as they have with Mavrik and Tactik. In reply to Keith--putting oxalic into one's smoker is, IMO, really a stupid thing to do. (Can I say "stupid" on this list?) Randy Oliver P.S. The ag inspectors at Truckee told me tonight (as I was entering Calif with my bees) that they are seeing lots of SHB entering the State, but are only reporting loads with LIVE beetles--dead beetles don't count. They think that is crazy, but that is the rule they were told to go by. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 01:18:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Howstuffworks "How can you train honeybees to sniff for bombs?" Comments: To: BEABOB61@ADELPHIA.NET, geniebee@juno.com, David.Rectenwald@WVCHAR.ang.af.mil, j.rectenwald@earthlink.net, ebw104@juno.com, SBall10623@aol.com, honeylady60@yahoo.com, beefarmgfc@yahoo.com, Teresia.Fought@mail.wvu.edu, reidapiary@bright.net, 2nail@citynet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Howstuffworks "How can you train honeybees to sniff for bombs?" Russ Dean H. A. S. 2008 @ Marshall University, Huntington, WV Nollaig Chridheil agus Bliadhna Mhath Ur -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 07:32:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Vote for Waldo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Dee & All, I wrote an article for Bee Culture on Waldo McBurney in Sept. of 2004.(vol. 132 no.9 pg.35 ) "Centurian Beekeeper" I kept asking Kim Flottum to publish the article as soon as possible as I was afraid Waldo might pass on before publication due to his age. Kim Flottum did as I asked but here we are two years later and Waldo is alive and well. I saw Waldo and his young wife (in her nineties) in Oct. 2004 at the KHPA meeting and got a signed copy of his book he had just finished. "My First 100 years " "A look back from the finnish line" R.Waldo McBurney Waldo was born in a sod house on the Kansas prairie in Quinter, Kansas and has lived in Quinter his whole life. The book was published by Leathers Publishing Leawood ,Kansas www.leatherspublishing.com Most of our talk during the interveiw was of all the records he held in senior olympics and his life growing up. On beekeeping he said he still had around a 100 hives and sold his crop at his honey store in Quinter ( with help from a neighbor). He expressed the importance of top ventilation in winter and reducing entrances in winter. He also said he walks the mile and back to his store everyday but he still has a Kansas drivers license ( or did then). His main means of support has been his bee hives but he has held several jobs but not many. His daughter Ruth Mann helped with the book or we would not have a record of his life. I hope to see Mr. McBurney again but Oct. of 2004 was the last AHPA meeting he has attended ( and was a regular). He gave me a signed copy of his book then. To Bob Harrison Keep up your writing We like to read what you write. October 2004 Waldo McBurney A couple interesting facts are he was college educated which was very rare for those in his time period and he may possibly be the longest cancer survivor on the planet. He had cancer when he was around sixty years old. He is always smilling and happy! The only time he got sad in our interveiw was when he said outliving all his family and friends is tough. Reminded me of the ending story line of the charactor Tom Hanks played in the movie "The Green Mile". My beekeeping mentor ( in his nineties) when I was a boy years ago in Florida once looked at me with misty eyes and took my small hand and said " After God makes a beekeeper he breaks the mold which is why they are all different" Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 09:45:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Open Air Feral Honeybee Nest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Dennis! The nest: http://birdbanding.blogspot.com/2006/11/honeybee-hive-at-ruthven.html I’m finding it difficult to to make any accurate conclusions of cell size variation from the last (5th) pic, maybe my sight is not so good. :) But I was able to enlarge the 4th pic and compare cell sizes from the lower most cells to the top most cells, and did not detect measurable difference in cell size. Although I’m not disputing that the sizes may be varying slightly, it just seems not large enough a difference to be measured at this scale. I do however see what appears to be larger cells in the foremost comb in pic number 4 and larger drone cells on the second comb inward. David asked about measuring bee space, which is very fascinating in this nest and others of this type. From looking at a small natural nest I have here in the house and in my own colonies. Bee space in a less traffic area in capped honey can be as narrow as ‘around!’ 5/16 from 'cap to cap'. But in broodnest, where bee traffic is heavy on both combs, bee space increases from ‘around!’ ½ to 5/8. And out at the perimeter of this open air nest, it appears a bee space of 1 inch or more is prevalent. So the question is, might bee space between comb be regulated by the need to facilitate traffic flow, congestion, or maybe the need to keep bee space in the broodnest narrow enough to aid in essential brood nest functional communications and not so important for communication at the perimeters where it is build wider, intresting? Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Ecologicalbeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 09:56:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Prokopovych Beekeeping Museum: Virtual Tour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John Caldeira wrote: >view a photo album virtual tour of the Prokopovych Beekeeping Museum I just want to thank you for posting this! I thoroughly enjoyed "visiting" the museum! pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:11:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Prokopovych Beekeeping Museum: Virtual Tour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Apropos: Ukrainian hives This summer I worked as a bee inspector for NY State and came upon several apiaries of unusual hives. The most interesting one was near Syracuse. A man in his nineties was keeping some twenty colonies in hives patterned after the ones in the "old country". Not sure where, Russia or the Ukraine. They were like chests with legs. The cover was hinged and when you opened it, it hung there at an angle, held in place by a small chain. Under the cover was a heavy quilt, and instead of an inner cover, there were many slats. There were no supers, just a lot of large frames (maybe 30). The bees were healthy, they were treating with Apistan. I didn't meet the owner, I guess he doesn't come outside that much, but his son was looking after the bees for him. His son said they put standard supers on some of the hives this year to make things a little easier. I guess they put two side by side. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 11:29:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Frank Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Use In-Reply-To: <000e01c715ba$88471a50$e663f504@wendyf10934cd0> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The dribble method is to slow, ... Just out of curiosity, since oxalic treatment seems to be beneficial, if excessive moisture in winter hives is detrimental to the health of the bees then why is not harmful to squirt or dribble any kind of a solution into the hive and onto the bees in the middle of the winter? I was hoping this would be addressed in Randy Oliver's recent article in ABJ as I haven't seen addressed elsewhere. Bill Frank Norfolk and Nelson County, Va -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:41:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Frank wrote: The dribble method is to slow, ... To Bill et al: We have been fortunate here in Canada to have had Oxalic acid approved . It simply works. Two weeks ago a friend of mine had finished treating his hives with Coumophos and wasn't satisfied with the results, so just after pulling the strips and before closing he used the trickle method . The next day the mite fall amazing. The landing boards etc were covered with dead mites as if one were to have taken a pepper shaker with a course openings and given hit several shakes. I passed this by our Tech people -the research end of the OBA and our provincial apiarist both suggesting resistance to Coumophos. The same thing can happen with Apistan also. In the spring the Pettis test will be run to verify the above. By the way, if you prepare your material /syringe etc. it doesn't take that long and really, the amount of wetness is insignificant. Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 15:48:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Randy, Randy wrote, > In reply to Keith--putting oxalic into one's smoker is, IMO, really a > stupid thing to do. (Can I say "stupid" on this list?) I was being vague on propose, It's a enclosed canister which is heated and compress with air, a long nozzle is then put into the entrance and so on, you guys get my drift how it works. We all, Randy, Bob and others just got finish talking about A/O not being legal for use in the states.I though I could be of some help to others without self incriminating my own self , but I guess some didn't follow my drift. All right, I guess I'm stupid. Hope all you guys have low mite counts and don't have to be bother with this. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 21:56:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: oxalic acid use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, The solution is a high percent sugar/fructose solution so even in winter has not been problematic. The first person to recommend oxalic to me was Medhat in Canada. He suggested as a clean up after treatments like apilife var & apiguard and even formic acid. The problem with OA from the research I have done is keeping the hive below varroa threshold until the broodless period. The second problem is figuring the exact kill you got is hard as many times it takes a couple weeks for varroa to die.\ With hard chemicals you stick a strip in ( when still working) and you get thousands of dead varroa the next day. With OA you may only find a couple hundred on the sticky board. Many beekeepers are going to OA alone. I believe you need to treat at least once with another treatment in our area. Apilife var and apiguard have been the most used treatments in our area. Very temp and correct spacing of treatments dependent. A commercial beekeeper in our area used apilife var last fall and for whatever reason did not get a good kill. He had hives crashing in summer. I believe that now many are using soft treatments you need to test test test. Feed stores can supply a ivomec measured sprayer used for spraying the ivomec on cattle. I have been told the method works for spraying OA. I caution I have never used the ivomec sprayer but the information comes from a reliable source. My ABJ and Randy Olivers article came today so plan to read. Friends have said an excellent article on OA. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 23:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Frank wrote: if excessive moisture in winter hives is detrimental to the health of the bees then why is not harmful to squirt or dribble any kind of a solution into the hive and onto the bees in the middle of the winter? Never thought of it Bill, normally the dribble is done in fall, not in the middle of winter. Done before the bees are tightly clustered, so I doubt that a few ml of water would hurt. My next article addresses OA vaporization for midwinter treatment. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 23:09:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: almonds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, There are beekeepers offering hives at discount in Calif. All it takes is a few, and the word spreads among growers. I was hoping that things would be stable, but now don't know. One buddy who has a few thousand very strong colonies called me today to ask about the situation. When I told him that growers only wanted to pay $125, all he said was "I guess I'd better place my order for Hawaian queens." In other words, if that's all the grower is willing to pay, then he'll split his colonies and rent more boxes at a lower rate." Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 01:58:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Croteau Subject: Re: Open Air Feral Honeybee Nest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very interesting Joe, Confirms using 1-1/4" bars in the brood nest may be the right thing to do. And 1-1/2" for honey-bars. Which I'm doing already. Thanks, Dave -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 20:54:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: New Varroa control In-Reply-To: <053201c71490$1f042540$0fc2b8a1@laptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant Hicks wrote: It was with interest that I read the agenda of the California State Beekeepers Ass. recent convention. One of the advertised speakers was from Wellmark. Could someone who was at the meeting comment on that presentation. >Hi Grant > > The new product is Hivastan. It is a gel containing fenpyroximate--a pyrizole mitochonrial inhibitor. The active ingredient is an agricultural contact miticide. Hivastan is 85-95% effective. But it is lipid soluble, and "very stable."--Welmark doesn't know about buildup in combs, but assume it will. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 00:39:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy, I just finished reading your OA article. Looks like you put many hours into research. I have got a question. On page 1046 of your oxalic article you quote Anton 1999 by saying: "The rub is, OA is only effective when dribbled in a sugar solution (Anton 1999), not in plain water" I was always under the impression that when OA was first tested in Switzerland by Imdorf Anton and the original 112 test colonies in 1994 & 1995 the OA solution used was 30 grams of hydrated OA desolved in one litre of water . Its late and i have not tried to track down the original studies but I did go to Allen Dicks web site and what he has posted says the first testing was only OA & water. http://honeybeeworld.com/formic/oxalictrans.htm Has Allen got it wrong? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 01:03:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Bee article in Time magazine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, In the Nov. 6th. issue of Time magazine on page 56 & 57 is an article about the honeybee. "The Buzz on Bees" These kind of articles put our troubles and the plight of the honey bee in front of the public and in the case of Time many politicians. The articles text was done by two people ( Jeffery Kluger & Kristina Dell) and quote as sources Gene Robinson, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Neil Tsutsui University of California at Irving. The article goes into detail about the honey bee genome. I thought the article was good for the beekeeping industry but got a kick out of the glaring mistake on page 56: "Tracheal mites First spotted in the U.S. in 1987 attack the respiratory system of adult bees and can KILL AN ENTIRE HIVE IN A MATTER OF HOURS" I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW THE TEXT WRITERS GOT THINGS SO WRONG BUT HOPEFULLY THE ERROR WILL DRAW ADDED ATTENTION TO OUR BEEKEEPING PROBLEMS. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:49:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: oxalic acid use In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-33F87C44 > The problem with OA from the research I have done is keeping the hive below >varroa threshold until the broodless period. Exactly, Bob. Which is where breeding comes in. The VSH (SMR) bees keep the mite levels down to a level where the colony will reach the broodless period, without crashing. The colony can then be treated with OA, cleaning up most of the rest of the mites. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:28:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Application of Manuka Honey Improved MRSA-Contaminated Ulcers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Application of Manuka Honey Improved MRSA-Contaminated Ulcers Topical Manuka Honey for MRSA Contaminated Skin Ulcers Palliative Medicine, Vol. 20, No. 5, 557 (2006) This paper reports on three hospice patients for whom topical manuka honey (MH), applied daily, improved ulcers contaminated with methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA)… To view the entire article, go to: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:56:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: oxalic acid use Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The problem with OA from the research I have done is keeping the hive below varroa threshold until the broodless period. This is true. I use this to my advantage to select breeder hives that can handle varroa loads from one fall to the next w/o any additional treatments to raise queens from the following spring. >>The second problem is figuring the exact kill you got is hard as many times it takes a couple weeks for varroa to die.\ I don't bother counting mites since I am sure of the method's efficacy (to my surprise, I don't see varroa in capped drone comb until the following September or so). I place 1" thick styrofoam, as winter insulation, under the screened bottoms in the late fall before the OA treatment. When I remove the styrofoam in the spring, I do see a lot of mites in the debris. >>Many beekeepers are going to OA alone. I believe you need to treat at least once with another treatment in our area. Apilife var and apiguard have been the most used treatments in our area. Another late-summer treatment may be needed in areas where very large bee populations are required to make it through very severe winters. In my area (zone 7, downstate NY), just the OA dribble seems to work fine. In some hives I will see PMS bees in October but the colonies don't collapse and winter fine. We do get several good days here in the winter for cleansing flights. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 19:01:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I was always under the impression that when OA was first tested in Switzerland by Imdorf Anton and the original 112 test colonies in 1994 & 1995 the OA solution used was 30 grams of hydrated OA desolved in one litre of water. An Italian study compared OA in pure water and in 2 different concentration sugar water solutions. The OA sugar water solutions resulted in higher varroa kills. It's either because the sugar water solution stuck better to mites/bees or was more eagerly ingested by the bees. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:24:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: OA vaporization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Keith, I would never consider you stupid--you're a model of a successful beekeeper to me! OA in a smoker WOULD be stupid. An OA vaporizer with a tube is a different story! They are generically called "crackpipes," and there are plenty of plans for them on the internet. Medhat Nasr is designing the premier model. The main issue is thermostatic control of the heating, so as not to overheat and decompose the OA. My article on OA vaporization will be in print in a month--I can't release it yet, since ABJ bought rights for first publication. Randy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 09:09:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: oxalic and request for info In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: I just finished reading your OA article. Looks like you put many hours into >research. >I have got a question. > >"The rub is, OA is only effective when dribbled in a sugar solution (Anton >1999), not in plain water" > >Hi Bob, I started going through my files for the original source. You're right, I read oxalic literature until I nearly went blind! The original authors you want to look for (separately) are Imdorf, Charriere, and Nanetti. I'm sending you three attachments privately. The best graphs comparing various sugar strengths, or sugarless, are in Nanetti Apiacta 38 (2003) 81-87. > > To All, I have a website nearly up, and I will include all my articles as they get published, and all sources and links. I will let you know. It is very time consuming to research these subjects, and I can save you all a lot of time. On the other hand, you are all a great help to me. My article on breeding for varroa resistance is in print. I'm writing the article on mite thresholds and sampling techniques right now--I'd appreciate any input. Specifically, I'm looking for: 1. Regional threshold recommendations (I've got UK, Dewey Carron, Imdorf) 2. Mite drop records for an entire season without treatment for survivor colonies, 3. Correlations between various sampling methods, e.g., how does a ether roll correlate with sticky board count? Thanks, Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 13:59:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: oxalic acid use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to all, >>>The problem with OA from the research I have done is keeping the > hive below varroa threshold until the broodless period. >From what I have been hearing you don't have to wait until there brood-less. A friend of mine has his own (jerry-rig) system.Sort of like a smoker but not, the working principals are the same as a smoker. A canister that can be compressed with air, with a thermal-coupler and thermostat built in.A pressure regulator for accurate delivery of product. You do have to go back three times if their is allot of brood, kind of like most methods used.The one treatment and out of here, is hard to find, but we are all looking for it.. I'm still using formic acid with my own model for delivery, but also looking for plan B when this quit working. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:01:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: oxalic and request for info In-Reply-To: <457304DA.9050407@infs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy, Just in case you do not know of this link - but I suppose that you do! > http://www.capabees.ca/eil.htm Economic Injury Level for Varroa on the Canadian Prairies by Dr. Rob Currie, University of Manitoba Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 15:48:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Use In-Reply-To: <45702686.4030109@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > The shorter the generation, the faster the tolerance, which is why > scientists love to study fruit flies. Varroa routinely inbreed so in addition to having a short "cycle time" so to speak, they're particularly good at propagating "favorable" traits. Foundress mites typically enter singly into cells to breed. Only when 2 or more foundress mites enter a cell do their daughters have a chance of mating with males other than their own brothers. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:07:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: O A vaporization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Randy & All, I have had many discussions with beekeepers in Germany about vaporization of OA. Use of OA in Germany goes back almost two decades. I was told you needed no protection but try to keep from breathing the fumes. Around two years ago beekeepers from Germany started reporting beekeepers using OA had contracted a rare from of cancer. All the same type of cancer. The last report I had heard was 6 had died. The update was on another list but could be found. As with many things precaution is tossed to the wind until a problem comes up. Those planning on using the vapor method need to wear a mask. Also there are many tests which have been done on dribbling in summer. The effiacy is LOW! Most tests show 40-60% after three treatments with some brood and egg kill. Night & day difference between a once a year winter dose and three summer doses. Oxalic acid use around the world is not new news. Perhaps to many on this list. Formic acid use is not new news. Thymol is not new news. We have got a member of BEE-L which has used thymol for over a decade I believe. All are soft treatments and temperature and timed treatment dependent. Controlling varroa is a never ending problem with the above soft treatments. You knock varroa back and hope varroa will not raise to a level at which no treatment will save the hive before you knock varroa back again. Hedging your bet with varroa tolerant stock certainly helps with soft treatments. I have got varroa tolerant bees which survive varroa without treatment which I would love if a hobby beekeeper but are not of as much value to me to use in pollination and honey production. Placing varroa tolerance at the top of the queen selection list can hurt the commercial beekeeper in my opinion. Despite claims wax contaimination is always a chance when any chemical is used in a bee hive. Reports of formic acid eating up the nails in bee equipment are already being heard out of Canada. Off topic: Several beekeepers have questioned my sanity in running a small cell experiment this season. Certainly not the first time! The main reason I try now when I did not before (other than a very small project) is that evidence has been mounting that I can place my prolific line of bees on small cell and see the same results. If you search the archives you will see the forty niners always said you needed a three part plan which included a certain bee and no artificial feeds. Dennis Murriel & others have told me this has been disproven. A very large commercial beekeeper which has quietly converted all his hives to small cell has said the same thing. So the test will go on! Back to putting together frames and installing small cell foundation. I am running into problems with wiring as the foundation seems thin. If I was to order another 25 pounds I would have Dadant run a thicker foundation or buy from a small beekeeper making and selling a thicker small cell foundation on the net. My first project years ago involved foundation sent me from South Africa and was used by those keeping AHB. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "What we don't know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:42:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: BIBBA can now take payments in US dollars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I know many of you have been put off from subscribing to the Bee Improvement Magazine, because of the high cost of exchanging dollars for UK pounds. This has now changed, the BIBBA shop can now take online payments in pounds sterling, US dollars and Euros... http://apple.clickandbuild.com/cnb/shop/bibbashop Just select membership and the magazine comes free. There are a few other BIBBA publications that may also prove useful for those of you that are about to embark on forming a northern states bee breeding group. -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 09:27:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: > >Around two years ago beekeepers from Germany started reporting beekeepers >using OA had contracted a rare from of cancer. Those planning on using the vapor method need to wear a mask. > > Absolutely! Here's an excert from my next article: German researchers, Gumpp, et al. (2003), state that “By appropriate use there is no risk to the health of the apiarist.” Their feeling was that the OA vapor quickly recondenses into an aerosol of tiny crystals, which are less dangerous than a vapor. They suggest wearing safety goggles, acid proof gloves, and a disposable cloth dust/mist mask equivalent to NIOSH N95 (“N95” will be stamped on the front—they cost anywhere from $12-$36 from Conney.com). >Also there are many tests which have been done on dribbling in summer. The >effiacy is LOW! Most tests show 40-60% after three treatments with some >brood and egg kill. > > My experience confirms this. I've used it the past two summers, and it kept my bees alive, but I plan to use Apiguard or MiteAway next year. >Night & day difference between a once a year winter dose and three summer >doses. > > The winter dribble is incredibly effective! >Hedging your bet with varroa tolerant stock certainly helps with soft >treatments. > > In my opinion, soft treatments are a stopgap measure as we breed better bees. >Placing varroa tolerance at the >top of the queen selection list can hurt the commercial beekeeper in my >opinion. > > I totally agree! Production comes first, then everything else, within reason. I've learned this several times in my breeding programs over the past 25 years. >Despite claims wax contaimination is always a chance when any chemical is >used in a bee hive. Reports of formic acid eating up the nails in bee >equipment are already being heard out of Canada. > > I'm concerned about overuse of oxalic. One a year in fall/winter should be it! >Off topic: >Several beekeepers have questioned my sanity in running a small cell >experiment this season. > I applaud you. We need far more well-conceived, and controlled experiments in many areas. > Randy Oliver > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 12:48:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Around two years ago beekeepers from Germany started reporting beekeepers > using OA had contracted a rare from of cancer. All the same type of cancer. > The last report I had heard was 6 had died. The update was on another list > but could be found. Vapor or drip? It sounds like vapor. I get more OA tending my rhubarb patch than with the drip method. I tried google to find anything on this and could not, but I did fine lots of sites that recommended ingesting high amounts of OA to cure cancer and almost every other aliment around. Same for formic. I would not think of it. If it is true, that it is a carcinogen and is the vapor method, it would fit into a common (in chemistry) problem of a hazard that is not usually a hazard when used in its normal state. I do not know of many uses of OA as a vapor but many as a liquid. So the industries where it is used in liquid form have lots of history on its long term problems. In that state it is harmful but not know to be a major health issue. Beekeepers are finding the long term problems when it is used as a vapor. There were several posts on the immediate hazards of OA as a vapor and they were dismissed since the manufacturer of the equipment said it was safe to use that way. Problem is, we do not know the long term hazards. I recall, when I was in graduate work, of two researchers who died working on what was considered a fairly safe chemical, but they were working with it in the vapor state. They even used ventilation but still were poisoned over a long period. My prof made sure I got the picture, since I also was working on several chemicals that were in a vapor state and normally solid. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 18:27:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: O A vaporization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Also there are many tests which have been done on dribbling in summer. The effiacy is LOW! Most tests show 40-60% after three treatments with some brood and egg kill. It does not make sense to use OA with sealed brood. Low efficacy and risk of injury to the queen with repeated exposure. As far as I know, no one recommends it. I would not use it that way. >>Oxalic acid use around the world is not new news. Perhaps to many on this list. Yeap, I read the Russians used it back in the early 80's. >>Controlling varroa is a never ending problem with the above soft treatments. You knock varroa back and hope varroa will not raise to a level at which no treatment will save the hive before you knock varroa back again. For sure - until we develop resistant/tolerant bees that are productive. :) >>Reports of formic acid eating up the nails in bee equipment are already being heard out of Canada. I may be wrong but this sounds like chemical abuse. The nails are in the wood and the acid would have to penetrate the wood to get to the nails. >>Several beekeepers have questioned my sanity in running a small cell experiment this season. Certainly not the first time! Bob, I am thinking of trying small cell myself :) next year since I've seen 5,0 mm in the center of brood combs of thriving feral colonies. It will be nice to see 4.9 mm in action for myself. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:42:25 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Oa > cancer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Maybe the cancer in the beekeepers has nothing at all to do with OA and = it is the result of contact with some other chemical that was used in = the past by all the beekeepers. =20 Best regards Roger White Cyprus. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:32:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: BIBBA can now take payments in US dollars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, =20 Make sure the price is correct. The advert for the Bee Improvement magazine=20= =20 in An Beachaire (the Irish beekeeping magazine) says the price is =A32.50. =20 Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:37:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: PMS problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I was going to email this new information directly to Randy Oliver as might be useful in an article but decided to post instead. I was raised in Florida and have kept close contact with beekeepers in Florida for most of my life. I have made at least one trip a year to Florida and at times many trips. I reported on BEE-L that I saw bees in Florida crashing from virus( PMS) when varroa loads were not above what Keith Delaplane and others considered treatment threshold. I told Keith so this fall at the KHPA meeting. He was suprised. My own testing which I also reported on BEE-L showed comb on which bees have crashed from varroa and have displayed parasitic mite syndrum (PMS) signs will crash from virus with varroa loads below what is considered by our researchers to be high enough to warrent treatment the next time a swarm is placed on the PMS comb. UNLESS THE VARROA IS KEPT IN CHECK I suggested changing all PMS brood comb. I shared on BEE-L about how one large Florida beekeeper would run his deadout comb through a bogi uncapper and cut half the comb off to help with virus. I was told today that to combat the PMS comb problem commercial beekeepers in Florida are using radiation on brood comb to kill the virus. The cost I was told was$6 a box or $12 a double hive. The radiation process is time consuming and I would recommend replacing comb but my source said radiation does kill all virus on comb. In many areas commercial beekeepers have used so many chemicals in hives and have had hives crash several times with PMS that those beekeepers are having big troubles keeping hives alive. Uncontaminated wax and brood comb which has never had PMS signs is step one to keeping a healthy hive today. Again and worth repeating: Varroa in check then no PMS. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:25:29 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: PMS problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote > The radiation process is time consuming and I would recommend replacing > comb but my source said radiation does kill all virus on comb. We use irradiation and it is very cost effective when you consider the time taken to put new frames together, wire, foundation in and then have bees draw that comb. If irradiated, the combs are able to be used straight away. We use a 15kGy dose which is effective against AFB, EFB, nosema and chalkbrood as well as the viruses. The one proviso would be that if the combs are contaminated with chemicals. Then I don't see the irradiation removing that chemical residue from the comb. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Melbourne in September 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:36:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Oa > cancer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Roger & All, I was not aware of any problems with the crack pipe method of OA treatment or any serious problems with breathing OA but on another list many were discussing the use of a respirator when doing a vapor treatment. I was a lurker reading the information. I had never used OA. Then the list got input from two beekeepers from Germany. They said six beekeepers which had been using OA for a long time contracted a rare form of cancer and in fact died. Like Roger some beekeepers on the list thought the beekeepers death was only a coincidence. I still would not apply OA vapor without a respirator. There were many laughs at some of the crack pipe posts. Crude jokes by most standards. It seems other than working bees some beekeepers have been crack ( cocaine in rock form) heads in a former life! Example: Friendly advice in one post was to "not use the same crack pipe to treat your bees with OA you smoke crack with" Another was to "make sure you blow into the pipe and not inhale." un moderated lists go to strange places at times. bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 18:01:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <25934599.1165255073938.JavaMail.root@m23> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy Oliver wrote: >> > I'm concerned about overuse of oxalic. One a year in fall/winter > should be it! > From National Institutes of Health: Oxalic acid contained in rhubarb, slippery elm, and sorrel, can cause serious adverse effects when taken in high doses (particularly in children). Oxalic acid toxicity/poisoning may be associated with nausea, vomiting, mouth/throat burning, dangerously low blood pressure, blood electrolyte imbalances, seizure, throat swelling that interferes with breathing, and liver or kidney damage. Deaths from oxalic acid poisoning have been reported in an adult man eating soup containing sorrel and in a 4 year-old child eating rhubarb leaves. The lethal dose of oxalic acid for adults has been estimated as 15 to 30 grams, although doses as low as 5 grams may be fatal. The amount of oxalic acid in Essiac® preparations is not known. In cases of suspected oxalic acid poisoning, medical attention should be sought immediately. Regular intake of oxalic acid may increase the risk of kidney stones. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-essiac.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:13:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Howstuffworks "How can you train honeybees to sniff for bombs?" In-Reply-To: <7315336.1165077164390.JavaMail.root@m23> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, guess I'll stick my foot in it again... This DARPA-funded scam has been going on for much too long. It is not ever going to be an effective tool, and anybody who has read any news in the last four years knows that most people, places and things in the populated areas of Iraq/Afghan. now have explosives residues on their surfaces. It continues to be touted and funded - why? (just my humble opinion) - John Edwards 39 years experience observing and training bees Russ Dean wrote: > Click here: Howstuffworks "How can you train honeybees to sniff for bombs?" > >Russ Dean > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:14:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <4574D2E1.3080505@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Randy Oliver wrote: > >> I'm concerned about overuse of oxalic. One a year in fall/winter >> should be it! > >> John Edwards wrote: > > Regular intake of oxalic acid may increase the risk of kidney stones. My concern was as far as mites developing resistance. The amount absorbed during dribble application is far below that of acute health risk. Chronic exposure can lead to kidney stones, but if one only treats once a year that would not be an issue. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:29:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: PMS problems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: >I reported on BEE-L that I saw bees in Florida crashing from virus( PMS) >when varroa loads were not above what Keith Delaplane and others considered >treatment threshold. > I've seen the same in my colonies at FAR lower levels than Delaplane recommends. At the first sign of virus, thresholds go out the window. >My own testing which I also reported on BEE-L showed comb on which bees >have crashed from varroa and have displayed parasitic mite syndrum (PMS) >signs will crash from virus > > Judy Chen's presentation at CSBA showed how viruses are found in honey, wax, and pollen. Good thing to keep in mind. But Bob, I haven't seen a case of what I'd call PMS in quite a few years. Curlywing collapse, yes, but not full-blown PMS. Are you others seeing it? Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 09:35:17 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: PMS problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The English Central Science laboratory recommend a treatment threshhold of only 1000 mites, this is because of the impact of virus Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" > > I reported on BEE-L that I saw bees in Florida crashing from virus( PMS) > when varroa loads were not above what Keith Delaplane and others > considered > treatment threshold. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 19:16:43 +0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: PMS problems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bob_Harrison >My own testing which I also reported on BEE-L showed comb on which >bees have crashed from varroa and have displayed parasitic mite >syndrum (PMS) signs will crash from virus with varroa loads below >what is considered by our researchers to be high enough to warrant >treatment the next time a swarm is placed on the PMS comb. >I shared on BEE-L about how one large Florida beekeeper would run >his deadout comb through a bogi uncapper and cut half the comb off to >help with virus. Hello Bob, Was this clean comb or comb contaminated with cumaphos and/or any homemade products? There is no secret that there are other veterinary products made for treating animals, that has/is being used against varroa. > my source said radiation does kill all virus on comb. No doubt. But are you sure this will help? From info I got virus will not survive outside the host cell for long. But so far there don't seem to be any proper test done on DWV on that. I got this from Ingemar Fries when I asked. What I know regarding persistence of DWV is that in colonies with serious symptoms and high content of DWV in brood and in adult bees, the provable (PCR) level of infection in brood will disappear when mites are removed with chemicals. The infection level in adult population will not disappear as quickly. No long time studies available. This would to me indicate that the hives you were referring to were affected more from contaminated comb than from virus. I know we talked about this recently. But if virus really would survive outside of a colony it would affect us badly as we would have to start replacing comb at a much higher rate. Costly radiation treatment might not be the cure to you friends hives, the bogy approach sounds more realistic... and burn the vax cut off! Residues are starting to show up here in vax comb returned from foundation producers. Next problem might be to check that your foundation supplier has clean vax :-( And like you I will try some hives on 4,9 mm comb next season. Start with a couple of yards, half small and half 5,3 mm cells. It will probably take me several years to get it drawn out in the brood nest with the short summer we have. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 07:55:27 -0500 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: PMS Problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit To Randy and All, Randy Oliver wrote: It has been our experience the last three to five years that the severity of PMS has been in a gradual decrease in intensity but PMS, I feel, still persists. No specific numbers to go to press with, just my own opinion. The last two years, I made the determination to treat only 30-40% of our colonies, immediately after honey pull in August when temps allow to treat with Apilife Var. Did follow up with Formic around Thanksgiving. I wish I had kept better records and could give exact numbers but it has been way under half of the colonies which would be experiencing mite drops of 15-40 per day. You can tell very quickly which hives tend to be "dragging or lagging" and a simple sticky board test for a few days will either confirm the need for immediate treatment or tell you to look at other problems such as the queen, comb, disease, etc. I have found it best if the D&L hives are isolated to our infirmary yard or Intensive Care Unit here at home base. If they crash is ! Sept. or Oct. and get robbed out, where do all the mites go. Hey, you don't let sick calves continue to eat with healthy ones, do you? If you wait till a broodless time to treat with Oxalic you can save your time as they won't be worth treating. Having treated thousands of cattle with Ivomec guns I can tell you that dispensing 30 - 50 ML can be irratic and difficult to maintain much level of accuracy, let alone 5 ML. Stick with a good sprayer (not a 19.00 Walmart Garden special) and monitor the time for dribble per simple calibrations as Randy mentioned. To quote your article Randy, which was excellent I might add, from page 1036, "Mind you, this is only a transitional approach as we, and the mite apply selective pressure upon the bees to do the job themselves." I haven't seen alot of educated discussions on this very important issue of Selective Pressure and the role it plays in the general theory of the Survival of the Fittest in regard to Varroa. I had been asking myself several questions this year and will now ask all: Do we have the same mites overall that completely decimated complete yards in '97 and '98 in my area? Or have the mites that have survived been the less insidious ones that drain the hive of its energy to be a good honey producer or pollinator, but bees and mites still manage to survive? Doesn't selective pressure apply to the predator species as well? Do we have the same Viruses that wiped out complete yards in 2000 through '02? Do we have the same genetic equivalent of bee stock that we had in previous years or are the survivors leaning to adapt due to selective pressure? Have we actually been a deterrent in this selective process by our overuse of chemcials? Been reading with much interest the very informative discussions recently on the use of Oxalic and having been in the exterminating business for 18 years simply cringe at the thought of thousands of beekeepers Vaporizing Oxalic using whatever methods they can dream up to do so. Not good for beekeepers or the honey industry. I have spent the last three years turning over all of our old comb. It has all been worth it. My only regret is that I have not used any alternative cell size foundation to do some experimentation as Bob is going to do. Will be interested to see what he comes up with as we are both pretty close geographically. I do intend to do some in the coming years. I do feel every one should be on a comb rotation program of between three and five years, especially if you have ever used Coumophos or even worse concoctions of personal design. Only combined eight hives down to four this year. Smallest number in years. Yes, it could be better queen stock, better fall honey flow ( fed less than a barrel of Corn Syrup as opposed to 9 barrels last fall ) could be the weather, but I still feel the comb rotation is a large part. We are now beginning to discover that the most contaminated invirons to live in today is our home, probably the same for the bees. Just my personal opini! on. Pray for our young people in perilous places, Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 04:56:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Using radiation on bee hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: Hello All, I was told today that to combat the PMS comb problem commercial beekeepers in Florida are using radiation on brood comb to kill the virus. The cost I was told was$6 a box or $12 a double hive. Bob, The people using the radiation treatment, were they in the panhandle of Florida? I, too, have considered using radiation on my brood combs, but to treat AFB infected combs, not PMS. At $6 a box, that is a lot cheaper in money, time, and resouces than replacing everything. What type of radiation were they using? Mike --------------------------------- Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 20:24:13 +0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been a lot of talk about vaporizing oxalic acid recently. I tried both this and dribbling four years ago when the first vaporizer was presented. Direct link to my result for those new on the list: http://beeman.se/research/oxalic/oxalic-0-nf.htm http://beeman.se/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm When we don't wrap hives fore winter here, trickling would be by far the best way to go. It took me 1,5 min per hive with the 3,2% solution. A friend helped me in the pictures when I was holding the camera, apart from those I did most of the treatment myself. The tiniest sniff of oxalic vapor will tell you it's not to play with! Now having said that, what method that's best for the bees is another thing. It's been proven that dribbling cause damage to bees and gives a slower springt build up. Claims have been made that vaporizing don't cause so much damage, but haven't seen any reasearch yet to prove it. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 09:09:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: O A vaporization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As the subject has returned to OA, I thought that some may like to know what I purchased regarding my request for mask info. I contacted many beekeepers before contacting 3M and the following is what was recommended for vaporising. 3M 6800 full face mask (CAN$123) Organic vapour cartridge 6001 ($9 pr.) Pre filter 5N11 ($3 pr.) and 2 plastic retainers at $1.75 each. I haven't used them yet ( haven't wrapped the hives yet either!). But 3M said that the full face protects better than mask and goggles and is more comfortable. With the recent remark about beekeeper deaths, I feel that I am not exaggerating regarding protection. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 09:52:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Oa > cancer In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Harrison > Then the list got input from two beekeepers from Germany. They > said six > beekeepers which had been using OA for a long time contracted a > rare form > of cancer and in fact died. Did they say exactly what kind of cancer they had? Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 07:05:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Howstuffworks "How can you train honeybees to sniff for bombs?" In-Reply-To: <4574F206.1040902@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John Edwards Now this might not be so bad, for once training is in place, and we can get bees to go and find explosives and other things by smell, then they could be re-routed for finding illegal pesticide usage and/or drugs, not couldn't they? Now wouldn't that help all us beekeepers? Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:04:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: PMS problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Some short answers as need to leave office in a few minutes but enough to keep discussion going. Ruary: 1000 mites! Wow that's a low threshold for a strong hive of 60,000 bees in August in our area. P-O: A well thought out post! I think you are right on about contaminated comb being a big part of the problem but no illegals were used in this beekeepers case. The Boganshutz cutting down of brood comb could be a possibiltiy instead of comb rotation for those using plastic foundation. The machine can be set to take almost all the wax off. The drawback is the cost of the machine and used are hard to find. Also labor. Mike & Randy: I was told the radiation was to rid the comb of PMS and curlywing virus. I do not know the type or dose of radiation. Tim: You ask the same questions the rest of us ponder. Virus is a new area. e best information I have had to go on has been from the virus researchers in the U.K.. I have been informed that Norman Carrick & Brenda Ball have been let go so the worlds virus research is in peril. What I know from those emails is simple: 1. keep varroa under control and virus stays at low levels. As Ruary said 1000 mites in the hive. 2. I now know beyound a shadow of a doubt that PMS comb will cause the virus to cause problems early in season. Has happened Every year with a friends hives. 3. I also believe that contaminated comb in combination with comb with a large amount of virus are worse than comb with only virus contamination. The above are serious issues to the huge U.S. commercial beekeeping industry. Many beekeepers are in denial. many are dumping suspect comb on the new "gold in California beekeepers". The bright side is many large beekeepers have expanded number of hives to use in almonds and are noticing the hives with the new comb are doing much better than their hives with old problem comb. A picture is worth a thousand words! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 08:55:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: UK Nursing Magazine Outlines Evidence for Use of Honey in Wound Care MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII UK Nursing Magazine Outlines Evidence for Use of Honey in Wound Care Honey Dressings in Wound Care Nursing Times (UK), 2006 May 30-Jun 5;102(22):40-2 Irene Anderson outlines the evidence that is available to support the use of honey in wound care and provides practical points for clinical practice Bees collect sugar solutions from plants and concentrate the solutions by allowing water to evaporate. The bees also add enzymes, one of which converts sucrose into glucose and fructose and another which converts some glucose into gluconic acid, so making the pH of honey too acidic for microbes to grow in it. This reaction also produces hydrogen peroxide (Molan, 2005). The type of honey from Leptospermum plant species (such as manuka) is known to have a broad spectrum of antimicrobial activity (Molan and Betts, 2004). A range of presentations of honey is available with a CE mark; some are available on the Drug Tariff. Indications and contraindications for using honey are listed in Boxes 1 and 2... SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 16:24:44 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: O A vaporization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit P-O Gustafsson gave the links to his pages on oxalic. I note that these pages state that the oxalic solution will only keep for a short time (and that is what I have always understood) - but I do not know why. Is it unstable? My question is prompted by the news from BBKA today the use of 'soft' treatments is now to be allowed (officially!) in the UK. Apparently, these substances are to be known as 'hive cleansers' rather than medicines and will then be considered to be outside the scope of the Veterinary Medicines Regulations (back to Non-medicinal Curative Substances?). However, BBKA is recommending that beekeepers should buy the solution ready made, rather than making it themselves. Although I am not using OA, I did try trickling it in the first year of varroa, and can see little danger is making the solution provided that precautions are taken not to inhale any dust. Of course there is a huge cost difference: I know someone who has just paid over £7 (+ carriage) for a litre of the solution and with OA at around 1p per gram it seems to me that someone is making a nice profit. I do now wonder about the position of Apiguard; if thymol is a 'hive cleanser', then presumably Apiguard is now outside the scope of the Regulations. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:24:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Howstuffworks "How can you train honeybees to sniff for bombs?" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John Edwards wrote: >OK, guess I'll stick my foot in it again... >This DARPA-funded scam has been going on for much too long. >It is not ever going to be an effective tool Right on John! My sentiments exactly. But then, I have seen so much money poured down the toilet on research projects -- don't even get me started! Peter Borst -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 19:31:05 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Burgess Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <031501c71889$e06d3cb0$5ac26a58@office> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:24:44 -0000, Peter Edwards wrote: > > I note that these pages state that the oxalic solution will only keep > for a short time (and that is what I have always understood) - but I do > not know why. Is it unstable? > I read somewhere that HMF increase quite rapidly to toxic (to bees) levels, presumably due to the acidity of the OA. Refrigeration should slow things down. Regards, John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 15:56:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sent by Jerry Bromenshenk for posting to BEE-L Subject: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things =20 Regarding the press release on work at LANL, John Edwards said : "...this DARPA-funded scam has been going on for much too long. It is not ever going to be an effective tool, and ... populated areas of Iraq/Afghan. now have explosives residues on their surfaces." And Peter Borst agreed. =20 I'm sorry to see John Edwards and Peter Borst drawing conclusions based on false assumptions, with no specific information. They usually speak from a knowledge base. =20 This is the same type of logic that Mark Winston used some years ago when he said that there was no need for a better method to find landmines -- farmers knew where they were. =20 =20 As someone pointed out, if that was the case, how do you explain the 20,000+ people hurt or maimed each year by these devices -- 50% of whom are children? Are the farmers committing suicide by running out into the fields and throwing themselves on mines? If you wonder about the need for better landmine detection technologies, ask anyone in the Mine Action Centers in countries all across the world, or Noel Mulliner from the Landmine Program of the United Nations. =20 Ok, to the extent that I am free to talk about our work and the work of others using bees to find things: =20 1. John is correct in saying many areas are grossly contaminated -- but we and others have hard data that says bees sort this out, ignoring elevated background levels, showing the real things of interest. That's one of the reasons for so much research -- lives are at or will be at stake; false hits, and even worse, missed devices would be a big problem. Knowing the exact limitations of a bee-based detection system is critical. I fully anticipate that I will be the first person to walk a minefield cleared by bees - so I take this seriously. =20 2. The main hold up has not been the ability of bees to find things or the number of false hits, it has been our inability to find the bees at a safe standoff distance. That was resolved last summer. We now, with our colleagues at Montana State, have portable, battery-powered lasers than can precisely locate (map) bees across large areas. The lasers key on the flash from the bees' wings. As such, the laser sees bees and only bees. =20 3. The United Nations and the Canadian government underwrote a new, large scale, proof-of-concept trial for landmine detection last summer -- the U.N. and others from the landmine detection community see this as possibly the biggest advance in the last 15 years, a technology that has application in over 60 countries and that could reduce the time needed to clear mines from 500 years down to 50-100. =20 =20 Unfortunately, the trial was put on hold because of concerns about sharing the technology with other countries (technology export). =20 4. We have published successful landmine detection trials, including the use of lasers to map bees across minefields -- type in my name or that of Joe Shaw (the lead developer of the laser systems) to pull up peer-reviewed articles from the internet. =20 5. Dee Lusby is correct, we can easily transfer this capability to train bees for uses such as the detection of drugs, meth-labs, and even dead bodies -- we are currently working with the U.S. Department of Justice on these applications. If it has an odor, we can probably train bees to seek it out. And the LANL folks have a similar technology using bees in a box as a 'sensor' that can be carried to whatever you want to scan -- in fact, LANL is using a technology used in the U.K. and developed by a company called Inscentinel. =20 6. We also now know that we can use the same conditioning systems to change the pollination efficacy of bees on crops (the Russians had it right, you can train bees to crops). =20 7. The portable lasers should provide a revolutionary tool for optimizing pollination -- we can now examine how forager bees discover fields, disperse relative to hive number and placement -- we're negotiating projects with seed companies. Questions about how to isolate hybrid seed fields, best strategies for hive placement, interplay between different pollinator species can all be visualized, mapping each and every bees across space and through time. =20 8. We also use bees to warn of releases of poisonous gases (e.g., Homeland Security) -- using the sounds that bee colonies produce to provide an alert in 30 seconds or less - and the sounds tell us what type of chemical was released. =20 9. This same sonic technology is showing remarkable promise for being able to scan bee colonies to detect and characterize the levels of infestation/infection of foul brood, varroa mites, africanized bees, etc. In fact, we think that this could dramatically improve bee management and are looking for investors to get this system out the door and into the hands of beekeepers by next summer. =20 10. All of the hive security systems that we can now offer the beekeeping industry are a spinoff of our military studies. =20 11. By next summer we anticipate having satellite-ready pallets that can report basic metrics back to the beekeeper from hundreds of miles away -- things like hive weight, rainfall, etc. Consider the cost benefits of not having to drive to every yard to check on things -- never having colonies starve without your knowledge, knowing when nectar flows have begun in time to get equipment on the hives, not sending trucks to pick up crops that didn't materialized because of localized drought... =20 We have a reasonably affordable satellite uplink system that covers all of North America and most of the developed areas of the world (i.e., Europe, parts of Australia, much of S. America). Our cost estimates are in the ballpark of $5 month per yard. =20 The biggest problem with our military projects is that the military is not particularly interested in agriculture, even as a strategic resource. Our challenge now is how to get these technologies out to the beekeeping industry, where we anticipate seeing changes that will parallel those of cereal grains (e.g., yield mapping), bringing the advantages of precision agriculture and cost reductions to commercial beekeeping. =20 I fully anticipate that within a year or two we will be able to make a big difference in the global landmine problem, saving thousands of lives. I also think we have the technology to rapidly improve beekeeping efficiency for large beekeeping operations. Putting these systems in place is the challenge, especially if people dismiss the concepts based on opinions, not facts. =20 =20 Beekeepers haven't cornered the market on making statements that aren't true -- we've had reviewers say bees won't be able to find things because they fly in tear drop formations, that bees will sting everyone in the area, that bees are in short supply in areas of the world where we know there are more bees than in the U.S., that bees have a poor sense of smell, that bees can only detect pheromones and floral scents, etc. =20 Jerry =20 J.J. Bromenshenk =20 P.S. I will be presenting an overview of bees as sensors at the national meeting of the entomological society of america, next week, in Indiana. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:13:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "It's either because the sugar water solution stuck better to mites/bees or was more eagerly ingested by the bees" What exactly is the mechanism by which the oxalic acid in the trickle method kills mites? This is key to making some decisions about its use at this time of year, especially as to whether to crack the boxes in two box hives, which is fairly intrusive to a nicely sealed and tightly clustered unit. How would ingestion work??? Also, the instructions I have for trickling are "35 grams per litre of solution, and 5 ml per line of bees with a maximum of 50 ml per colony". But the number of lines of bees is dependent on temperature. We had fairly good temperatures doing the first couple of thousand hives but today was down to minus eight and even strong colonies did not not have many "lines of bees". We can't really wait for warmer temperatures as even today it was getting hard to get through the snow into the yards. I understood that oxalic trickle could be done at cold temperatures. Is that correct??? Regards Stan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:49:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Article - Worker Policing by Queens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Intresting Article: 'Why do some queen bees eat their worker bee's eggs?' http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-12/uocp-wds120406.php Best Wishes, Joe Waggle EcologicalBeekeeping.com ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:50:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Brian_Fredericksen?= Subject: Re: Oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:13:11 -0400, Stan Sandler wrote: . I understood >that oxalic >trickle could be done at cold temperatures. Is that correct??? > my understanding is weather you are using either trickle or vaporize technique, the temp must be above freezing for the treatment to be effective. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 19:51:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Oxalic In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-50423D6B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Stan Sandler: >. I understood > >that oxalic > >trickle could be done at cold temperatures. Is that correct??? > >Brian Fredericksen: >my understanding is weather you are using either trickle or vaporize >technique, the temp must be above freezing for the treatment to be effective. This question was answered by Ari Seppala on 11/10/06 I have been using dripping method for several years and have done it many times in - 2 - - 10 C. Only noticed difference is that the person working is getting colder. I admit the efficacy might be a bit less when very cold as the bees then maybe do not spread the oxalic so well to each others. But we have not seen diffrerence Ari Seppälä -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/567 - Release Date: 12/4/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:30:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: O A vaporization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:24:44 -0000, Peter Edwards wrote: > > > > > > I note that these pages state that the oxalic solution will only keep > > for a short time (and that is what I have always understood) - but I do > > not know why. Is it unstable? > Peter, you want to read "Storage of oxalic acid sucrose solution" by Bogdanov, et al. I'll email you a copy. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:45:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding the press release on work at LANL, John Edwards said : "...this DARPA-funded scam has been going on for much too long. It is not ever going to be an effective tool, and ... populated areas of Iraq/Afghan. now have explosives residues on their surfaces." Hi Guys, I've spent some time seeing Jerry's presentations, and looking at his data. I'm pretty impressed! And I'm tough to impress. I think Jerry's land mine work has the potential to save a lot of innocent lives. And the spinoffs are only limited by your imagination (or lack thereof). On a more pragmatic note for beekeepers and agriculture, some of his new developments could really help beekeepers, and the military is paying for the basic research. For example, he's got incredible data on how bee-emitted sound frequencies correlate with colony problems. His laser tracking could also be used to determine bee foraging in almonds, for instance. He hasn't mentioned this to me (you listening, Jerry?), but how about a bee scent scanner that we train our own bees, then wave it in front of colonies to determine queenrightness, africanization, foulbrood, chalkbrood, or varroa levels in seconds? He has the technology to develop this. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:01:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: O A vaporization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter John Keating" < recommended for > vaporising. > 3M 6800 full face mask (CAN$123) Organic vapour cartridge 6001 ($9 pr.) > Pre filter 5N11 ($3 pr.) and 2 plastic retainers at $1.75 each. Hi Peter You can't go wrong with a great mask like that, but Gump in Germany feels that since the OA vapor recrystallizes in the air, that you only need a good particle mask--not organic vapor. I'm just reporting, not recommending. I've never used vapor myself. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 23:33:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kirsten Traynor Subject: Show off your commercial beekeping operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Here is a chance to show off the size and scale of your commercial beekeeping operations overseas! I am looking for photos of commercial beekeeping operations in the United States. The reason for my request is that I am currently based at the largest beekeeping institute in Germany on a one year scholarship from the Humboldt Foundation investigating the differences between the German and American beekeeping industries. I will be speaking at the largest commercial beekeepers conference in Germany in early January and I would like to show the audience the scale of commercial beekeepers in the United States. Unfortunately I am lacking photos. I know many of you are hard working beekeepers and very proud of your businesses. If you have photos of your operations, please share them with me, so I can inform the German beekeepers about their American counterparts. (Rest assured that I always give appropriate photo credit) Many German beekeepers I have spoken with are very interested in the American beekeeping industry and would welcome informational exchanges. I am happy to arrange for conversations between German and American beekeepers, translating if necessary. They are very eager to learn from the U.S. and are very envious of U.S. pollination fees. I think this could be an excellent opportunity for beekeepers to learn from one another, since we are all facing similar problems. Some problems like varroa German beekeepers may have more experience with as they have been fighting the pest longer, while other problems like small hive beetle are better understood by Americans, who have more first hand knowledge. I welcome all photos and contacts. My goal is to work as liaison between Germany and the United States beekeeping industry and welcome any questions or suggestions you might have. Sincerely Kirsten Traynor Humboldt Scholar Institute for Bee Research Celle Siedlungsweg 7 29223 Celle Germany Office: 49 (0) 5141 9050365 Home:: 49 (0) 5141 3491480 Mobile: 49 (0) 178 7625814 Email: kirsten@mdbee.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 19:50:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Bee article in Time magazine In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I took those two pages in Time magazine, cut them from the magazine, and took them to my print/copy center. I had them laminated and will use them as an eye-catching display on my bulletin board at the Farmer's Markets this next summer. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 22:31:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Cluster sizes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whilst placing hives into winter storage here in Manitoba. I have really been amazed at the ability of the bee clusters to vary in size. Vary in size due to temperature. Being temporarily stored in a enclosed area (therefore allowing easy access to the hives even in poor conditions) without any heat, the clusters were 3 frames across - judged from looking via. the bottom entrance. Some boxes still had Miller feeders on them - these were removed as the boxes were placed in final storage position. The clusters were impossible to see as the bees were too deep in the frames but was interesting to see how much hoar frost there was in the boxes. Once in the relatively warmth of the wintering room (+4 to 5 degrees celsius) - the bees in most cases after 24 hours had spread and filled 50 to 75% of the box width. I have various types of bee - most being Carnolian (or open mated Carnolian offspring) with some yellow items from Kona (labelled Carnolian). Is there any information on cluster size change when registered against external temperature? Also, what is considered as a normal winter cluster size for Carnolian bees (at beginning of period of queen inactivity)? - realising that there are a multitude of variables. I presume that this topic must be of fundamental interest to any beekeeper sending colonies down from a cold climate into a warmer climate - as do Dakotan apiarists into the Californian almond groves. Accurate cluster size measurement in cold conditions must be gauged to know what they are going to look like in the Californian conditions, especially under the regime of present day requirements. Thanks, Peter in Manitoba, where it is: -19 degrees outside with a wind chill of -31 degrees celsius. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:29:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <002501c718d6$2a63ccc0$ad25fea9@jps.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Randy Said... > Peter, you want to read "Storage of oxalic acid sucrose solution" by > Bogdanov, et al. It is on the web at... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/oxalicstorage.html Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:29:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I'm sorry to see John Edwards and Peter Borst drawing >conclusions based on false assumptions, with no specific information. Well, as usual there is more than one side to this story. Certainly there are many points upon which we may respectfully differ. No one can deny that billions of dollars have been squandered on research projects AND military ventures. QUOTE: In an August 2003 article, Los Angeles Times reporter Charles Pillar noted that DARPA has put forth some of the "most boneheaded ideas ever to spring from the government" -- including a "mechanical elephant" that never made it into the jungles of Vietnam and telepathy research that never quite afforded the U.S. the ability to engage in psychic spying. Little has changed. According to DARPA's current chief, some 85%-90% of its projects fail to meet their full objectives. The Environmental Protection Agency's "National Center for Environmental Innovation" is a far cry from a DARPA-like entity. It doled out a mere $737,500 in seven state-innovation grants in 2003. DARPA, by comparison, spent about $3 billion on some 200 projects that ranged from space weapons to unmanned aerial vehicles. In 2002, DARPA researchers demonstrated that they could remotely control the movements of a rat with electrodes implanted into its brain using a laptop computer. In 2003 and 2004, DARPA's "Robolife" program researchers will turn their attention to the "performance of rats, birds and insects in performing missions of interest to DoD, such as exploration of caves or covert deposition of sensors." Militarizing the animal world, however, carries its own risks. Take World War II's Project X-Ray in which bats with incendiary explosives strapped to their bodies turned on their military masters and set fire to an U.S. Army airfield. Just imagine what an army of Army rats might do! More at: http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_201.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:08:12 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Burgess Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <45767F4C.2080903@lineone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 08:29:00 -0000, Dave Cushman wrote: > > Randy Said... > > > Peter, you want to read "Storage of oxalic acid sucrose solution" by > > Bogdanov, et al. > > It is on the web at... > http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/oxalicstorage.html > The english version of this paper contains a couple of translation errors: Oxalic acid dEhydrate should be dIhydrate, and the solutions are made in "sugar-water" (1:1), and not in water. Regards, John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:03:49 -0500 Reply-To: chrissy shaw Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: chrissy shaw Subject: Re: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----Original Message----- >From: randy oliver >Sent: Dec 5, 2006 8:45 PM >To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu >Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Bees and Detection of Harmful Things > > Excuse me for the interjection, but in regards to Randy Oliver's comments about waving something in front of hives; someone needs to train K-9 that could be walked through yards at night that could indicate mites, AFB, nosema infection and perhaps AHB signature sent. One could then mark such indicated colonies for inspection and treatment. Teaching bees would seem to me to require breeding, workers can not live long enough in the field to be taught. Therefore a strain of bees inclined to be drawn to a chemical signature would be required. If all that work is to be done it would further seem to me to be better handle by remote robotics and existing sensors which need neither breeding or training. So i am guessing that there is a special training method and since (if something of this nature is possible) it is a national security item, i don't even want to know. Chrissy ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 04:27:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Bees and detection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chriss Shaw wrote: >>>>Teaching bees would seem to me to require breeding,<<<< Not true. Bees respond to reward. When rewarded with syrup bees were "trained" to care for queens that were low on pheromone production. (Hazy on details, it's in a book by J B Free) I think the training would be the easiest part. Run some syrup through a land mine and the bees, having learned that landmines give nectar-will go looking for them. The former is called behavioral (Operant)conditioning and the latter is called classical (Pavlovian) conditioning. On the subject of DARPA wasting money, truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. In the early stages of WW-2, a young psychologist received a grant to teach pigeons to fly guided missiles by pecking at buttons. Remember, radio was just becoming common and portable radio had a long way to go. I was told the project was successful but was scrapped because of development in radio. The psychologist, BF Skinner, went on to write the theory of operant conditioning which moved the science into a great leap forward and is used daily to understand human and animal nature. The money wasn't wasted. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 18:20:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>What exactly is the mechanism by which the oxalic acid in the trickle method kills mites? I've heard mixed opinions with most theorizing that bees ingest the solution during the clean-up after trickling. >>...whether to crack the boxes in two box hives, which is fairly intrusive to a nicely sealed and tightly clustered unit. I avoid having to separate my hive bodies - I also overwinter in 2 deeps - by cracking the bottom deep lose from the bottom board and inverting the 2-deep combo on a fork lift lowered to the ground. With the bottom deep now facing up, I can trickle the OA solution into the bottom deep. >>How would ingestion work??? The theory (I am not aware of conclusive research) is that the ingested solution makes the bees' blood pH more acidic. Tolerable to the bees but too acidic to the mites. When the mites feed on the treated bees' blood, they drop dead. >>...even strong colonies did not not have many "lines of bees". I believe this is all right. The bees are concentrated and just about all will be exposed to the solution. >>I understood that oxalic trickle could be done at cold temperatures. Is that correct??? As others have said, the ambient temperature is not a significant factor. The warm temperature in the clusters should allow for a good distribution of the solution among the bees as long as the solution gets passed the outer layer of bees... I am thinking: in the cold temps the cold solution may kill some outer-layer bees although this kill may be insignificant. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:25:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit chrissy shaw wrote: >Teaching bees would seem to me to require breeding, workers can not live long enough in the field to be taught. Chrissy I am sorry but you are quite mistaken in thinking that bees cannot be taught. They are easily trained to visit stations where sugar syrup is provided and not only will they return to the same spot, they can be taught that the syrup will be available at a certain time. I would refer you to Karl von Frisch's book "Bees: Their Vision, Chemical Senses, and Language". In it he describes experiments where he trained bees using color, scent, shape, and taste. This training, of course, utilizes abilities they already possess for the assessment of the quality and the memorization of the location of flowers in order to make optimum use of them as food sources. They have an acute sense of locality and are able to memorize the appearance of landscapes as well as buildings and even locations inside buildings. I have seen them find and return to a particular super (one with honey) in a warehouse full of bee hives. Of course, they learn and recognize the location of their own hive. The queen does this in her first week alive, since she has to go on multiple mating flights. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:33:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Oxalic In-Reply-To: <20061206.102024.1570.902778@webmail07.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6FC31D27 > >>What exactly is the mechanism by which the oxalic acid in the >trickle method kills mites? > > The theory is that the >ingested solution makes the bees' blood pH more acidic. When the mites >feed on the >treated bees' blood, they drop dead. Marion Ellis, U of Nebraska, has been doing work on trickled Oxalic and sugar syrup. I heard him talk at the NY Empire State meeting, last fall. He believes that the bees spread the syrup onto each other by rubbing against each other, and the mites are killed by contact with the acid. He in fact said that he didn't believe the bees actually ate the syrup. I think he said that syrup on the top bars remained on the top bars, without being cleaned up by the bees. Aaron, you were at that meeting. Have I got it right? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/567 - Release Date: 12/4/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:21:20 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Cluster sizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, Here is exactly what you are looking for in two formats; http://balder.prohosting.com/starrier/beereport1.html/ http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm Happy reading, . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:26:10 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Burgess wrote: > > The english version of this paper contains a couple of translation > errors: > > Oxalic acid dEhydrate should be dIhydrate, and the solutions are made > in "sugar-water" (1:1), and not in water. > > Regards, John Burgess > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > John are you sure of this? I would have thought that by "dehydrate" the translator might have meant "without water" which would have been "anhydrate" and I understand that most recipes assume anhydrate when they specify the concentration. My limited knowledge of chemistry tells me that the only difference between the 2 when making up aqueous solutions is that the heavier dihydrate molecule would call for a very slightly greater proportion of oxalic acid. Perhaps a chemist out there could confirm this and perhaps even tell us how mush more dihydrate is needed. Regards Steve Rose, England -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:28:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst quoted Mother earth and the LA Times: > including a "mechanical elephant" that never made it > into the jungles of Vietnam and telepathy research that never quite afforded > the U.S. the ability to engage in psychic spying. They are using the classic and reprehensible technique of citing a couple of projects and tarring the entire body of work. God help us if our lives were judged by some of our posts here on the BeeL. You could easily go into the archives and find posts where I (or anyone) did not get the facts right. That does not make our entire body of work incorrect. In essence, because one project may have been a waste of money, it does not make Jerry's or all of DARPA's work a waste of money. > According to DARPA's current chief, some 85%-90% of its projects fail to > meet their full objectives. > > I love this sort of quote that is totally misunderstood by the reporter, but it is the LA Times and Mother Earth, so not unusual. Truth is, if DARPA is meeting 10 to 15% of their objectives for pure research, that is the unusual fact. I would not have expected it to be that high. If so, it is money well spent. It also means that they are coming close in a lot of areas and may fail in others. That is not unusual with pure research. After all, it is research. My friend and I worked on our thesis projects. We both set out to prove something and I did and he failed since he did not meet his objectives. Truth is, we both succeeded since he actually proved something could not be done, at least by his methods. Sometimes research fails but succeeds in failure. How may trials have you conducted that failed? I know I have done plenty. If you read magazines like MIT's Technology Today, you will see DARPA is behind most of the cutting edge research they cite. Truth is, if you want to make some money, just check and see what DARPA is interested in and invest there. But don't invest in the LA Times which is hemorrhaging readership. Finally, if Jerry succeeds only in a small part, he is a major success in my eyes. The number of land mines in the world is staggering and people are killed and maimed daily. If his bees are a way to rid countries of that scourge, he will have done more good for the world than any of the recent recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:52:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Using radiation on bee hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/12/2006 13:05:53 GMT Standard Time, mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: I, too, have considered using radiation on my brood combs, but to treat AFB infected combs, not PMS. Mike This may kill the bacteria but the scale will remain. This means that at a visual inspection at a later date the comb will appear to have AFB and you will be unable to say whether the scales are old irradiated ones or fresh and active ones. The bees will have less use of those combs also as they tend not to use cells with AFB scales. Fire is cheap, safe and certain. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:27:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <45771952.7030902@tiscali.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Rose wrote: > My limited knowledge of chemistry tells me that the only difference > between the 2 when making up aqueous solutions is that the heavier > dihydrate molecule would call for a very slightly greater proportion > of oxalic acid. Perhaps a chemist out there could confirm this and > perhaps even tell us how mush more dihydrate is needed. > The molecular weight of OA is 90.04, add 36 (and change) for the two water molecules and you get 126 for OA dihydrate. The problem then becomes what the studies used then compared to what we know now. Because the amounts varied from study to study and OA and OA dihydrate both were used it was a bit of a problem keeping the amounts straight. You were never sure of the correct amounts and concentration. Eventually, most of the early European formulas were 70 gm OA dihydrate to 1 liter water and 1 kg sugar which is what I settled on since it was consistant and was in the range of the most effective concentrations.. I see that Randy has 56 grams for winter, so that is new to me, but still lists the 70gm formula for spring/summer. For our European friends in cold climates- do you use the new, 56 gram formula or are you still using the 70 gram formula? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:42:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable More from Jerry Bromenshenk: =20 "With respect to Chrissy and Peter's recent comments: =20 1) Bees certainly do live long enough to train, and our systems make = training self-sustaining. Each day bees are lost from the forager = group, but new ones come into that function. They rapidly learn from = other bees -- and our patented systems use microprocessor control = systems to sustain the conditioning -- up to weeks and months. =20 As per how long it takes to train a bee, we have a video on Youtube = (i.e., Griz Bees) whereby a bee flies through a maze following the logo = of our Grizzly football team. Whole thing took 2 1/2 hrs from start of = training of the bees to completion of the final video. =20 2) DARPA can spend lots of money -- their philosophy, high risk = research, with high payoff potential. Failures are easy to find, but = keep in mind that DARPA also produced the Internet (not Al Gore nor NSF) = and the Stealth Bomber. There wouldn't be a Bee-L without DARPA. =20 Jerry" =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:45:08 -0500 Reply-To: chrissy shaw Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: chrissy shaw Subject: Re: Bees and detection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----Original Message----- >From: Dick Marron >Sent: Nov 26, 2006 4:27 AM >To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu >Subject: [BEE-L] Bees and detection > >Gentlemen... Yes, Pavlovian training can occur, the problem i forsee is this; worker bees live six to eight weeks, thus the new foragers would have to be trained in the sweet mine field over and over and it is my most humble opinion that the work force will aim its efforts at the sweet field alone, since recruiting will not be fruitful in dry locations. If one is using NATO id'd explosives you could front load the material, trace of comb or honey signature, perhaps queen substance, the problem is not every builder of explosive devices is going to use NATO bases. I don't see how the re-enforcement characteristic in Pavlovian or Skinnarian training would be effective. I am well aware of recall in honeybees. Winter-overed colonies will dispatch field forces early and return exactly where they oriented from the previous fall. I can't recall where i put my glasses five minutes ago. Chrissy ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 21:09:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >2) DARPA can spend lots of money -- their philosophy, high risk research, with high payoff potential. Failures are easy to find, but keep in mind that DARPA also produced the Internet (not Al Gore nor NSF) and the Stealth Bomber. There wouldn't be a Bee-L without DARPA. Yes, well, this is getting a little too sticky. I am quite certain that we, as a human race, would have produced the internet, given the desire and the money, one way or another. My point earlier was that the big bucks are in the military coffers and in order to get the money, researchers like Jerry have to cue up to the DoD. Would that it were otherwise; would that we could get billions spent on research for Peace. (PS: where did all those land mines come from in the first place?) pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 18:24:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Cluster sizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Peter Dillon" > Accurate cluster size measurement in cold conditions must be gauged to > know what they are going to look like in the Californian conditions, Hi Peter, This was apparently a problem last year when there was a "heat wave" during winter in the midwest. Beekeepers looked at clusters not realizing that they had already expanded due to the warmth, and still assumed that they would expand in Calif. They didn't, and the beekeepers were surprised when graded. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 18:49:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The theory (I am not aware of conclusive research) is that the ingested solution makes the bees' blood pH more acidic. --- Hi Waldemar, Ellis and Alianos experiments put the nail into the coffin of the acidic haemolymph hypothesis. I'll send you a copy of my article. No one knows the action. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 21:25:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Cluster sizes In-Reply-To: <006701c719a6$cbf5d620$ad25fea9@jps.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks to Keith Malone for the links supplied - real interesting read. Randy Oliver wrote: "Beekeepers looked at clusters not realizing that they had already expanded due to the warmth, and still assumed that they would expand in Calif." Ah! - I imagine the problem. So, logical question is: At what temperature does a beekeeper grade his or her colonies. Behind this, whatever the temperature, the objective is to have a colony that is going to perform its task of pollinating to a required economic level. And reading that the graders in Cal. want "8 frames" - the minimum "8 frames" are seen at what temperature minimum for minimum # of bees ? What would this cluster size and associated temperature translate to for somebody measuring in say N. Dakotan temperatures at same period of time. This seems to me to be juggling with a bucket of eels on heat!! Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 21:35:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <25366804.1165311035662.JavaMail.root@m23> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree - but I've met several beekeepers who are cooking it up on homemade smoke-injectors, and that's my concern. - John Edwards > The amount absorbed during dribble application is far below that of > acute health risk. Chronic exposure can lead to kidney stones, but if > one only treats once a year that would not be an issue. > Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 21:42:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Howstuffworks "How can you train honeybees to sniff for bombs?" In-Reply-To: <7405703.1165332080360.JavaMail.root@m23> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Dee - glad to see you're still stirring the pot! Sure, but they'd also stop everybody driving out of the 3-Points Range! I did like the photos of all the bees taped into their little individual paper tubes - reminded me of some of the useless stuff I did in Tucson......... - John Edwards Dee Lusby wrote: >John Edwards >Now this might not be so bad, for once training is in >place, and we can get bees to go and find explosives and >other things by smell, > >Dee A. Lusby > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 07:35:36 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Waldemar >I am thinking: in the cold > temps the cold solution may kill some outer-layer bees although this > kill may be insignificant. Waldemar and others ! The weather here usually gets cold before I get a chance to use oxalic. Like I wrote before temperatures below 0 C are almost a norm for me and no problems . But I do use warm oxalic liquid. + 20 - + 30 C. I have the jar in a cooler box with a canister of warm water and only take out the amount needed for one yard at a time. Sugar syrup with oxalic runs through a syringe much easier when warm and also makes smaller drops. I think that I can hit the bees better with smaller drops and maybe get a better result. The oxalic solution should not be kept this warm as acidity breaks the sugar for HMF which is harmful for bees. I keep mine cold, and take it in to the house previous day to warm up. Normally I only make what I need in the next 2- 3 days. I am using 75 g / 1 litre of water / 1 kg sugar I know smaller amounts around 60 g do also still work quite well, but 75 is no a problem for bees so I use it. Ari Seppälä Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 22:03:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things In-Reply-To: <4252291.1165373975285.JavaMail.root@m23> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with much of what you say, but having worked in bee research for close to 40 years, and trained many bees, AND seen or read many of the landmine proposals, I can't see it happening. Chemical residues are too long-lived. I only really take issue with you on one point, Randy: randy oliver wrote: "....and the military is paying for the basic research. ...." It really is us, isn't it? Most sincerely, - John Edwards former bee trainer, identifier, tracker, analyser, and microsurgeon -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 22:20:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things In-Reply-To: <24904844.1165353834126.JavaMail.root@m23> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, I have never doubted your dedication or morals, just your methods (regarding land mines). I do think your laser systems may prove fruitful - lots of people have tried to solve the same problems (disease, foraging, q-rightness), but your approach using new tech is unique. - John Edwards Aaron Morris wrote: >Sent by Jerry Bromenshenk for posting to BEE-L > > Subject: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things > >..... many areas are grossly contaminated -- but we and others have hard data that says bees sort >this out, ignoring elevated background levels, showing the real things >of interest. That's one of the reasons for so much research -- lives >are at or will be at stake; false hits, and even worse, missed devices >would be a big problem. Knowing the exact limitations of a bee-based >detection system is critical. I fully anticipate that I will be the >first person to walk a minefield cleared by bees - so I take this >seriously. > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 22:43:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: OT: Harmful? In-Reply-To: <10589182.1165464347976.JavaMail.root@m23> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, now that I've got you all lathered up over DARPA, I'll probably go back to sleep for another year or two........ We all need something to think about in the wintertime, as Andy Nachbaur would say - boy, I miss him. - John Edwards -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:34:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <45775FED.3070802@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Bill Asks... > For our European friends in cold climates- do you use the new, 56 gram > formula or are you still using the 70 gram formula? I give a quote from 'the Wally Shaw document' that is widely circulated in UK... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/wallyshaw.html "The treatment material is 3.2% oxalic acid in a 1:1 sugar solution. The recipe for making this is as follows:- Make up a sugar syrup consisting of 1 kg sugar in 1 L of water. To this should be added 75 g of oxalic acid dihydrate and well mixed. This will make 1.67 L of treatment material." Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 07:10:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <4577E02C.5020107@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > > I give a quote from 'the Wally Shaw document' that is widely > circulated in UK... > http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/wallyshaw.html In that document is the following: "After the oxalic treatment has been completed, the top insulation should be re-instated and any top ventilation closed-off." Why close off top ventilation? Or is this just part of the continuing argument over top ventilation in winter? If so, I understand but is it connected to the OA treatment? I do appreciate the info but the UK does not have the kind of winters I am asking about. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 07:37:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bees and Detection of Harmful Things In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This thread has devolved quickly into non-beekeeping territory. However one thing stands out, and that is the lack of "informed discussion" on Jerry's research. Several of the comments are on the order of "it cannot be done" while it is being done, or do not understand the actual issues or research. Instead we are in the normal, for the Internet, my/your truth, science/Luddite, peace/war or military/social spending issues where strong views prevail and reason takes a backseat. So before Aaron has to fire another warning shot, it might be nice (but not as much fun) to actually get back to an "informed discussion of beekeeping" . I suggest the archives to learn much about Jerry's work. Truth is, the reason we do not see many researchers on this list is exactly because of the progression of this thread. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:19:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <457804AF.3090702@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill > Why close off top ventilation? Or is this just part of the continuing > argument over top ventilation in winter? If so, I understand but is it > connected to the OA treatment? It is a wintering thing, not the treatment... There are many arguments about whether or not top ventilation is beneficial, many of these arguments are based on over simplified physics, to be really successful in very cold and harsh winters requires no ventilation at the hive top and a considerable layer of insulation material within the hive cover. However, for this to work it relies on the bees being attuned to the conditions encountered, such that they actually shut down for winter. If you use a bee that is inappropriate for the cold region, you are likely to end up with a population that is too numerous for this shut down to occur and the larger population will remain quite active, consuming large quantities of stores and making the moisture problem worse, to such an extent that top ventilation has to be brought into the equation to compensate. So it not a case of whether top ventilation or no ventilation is 'right' it depends on whether the bee is right for the conditions. If the bees are not 'right' you have to make the best of a bad job and use top ventilation and the high amount of winter stores that need to be fed to keep the over active bees alive. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:28:53 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy, >>Ellis and Alianos experiments put the nail into the coffin of the acidic haemolymph hypothesis. I'll send you a copy of my article. No one knows the action. You've done a nice job on the article! I am open to all hypotheses and I am sure one day soon we'll learn the precise mode of operation. Re. possible ingestion, I'd think bees have to clean the syrup solution off themselves. It's hard for me to imagine that mere rubbing against other bees would satisfy the bees. They would use their probosis to ingest [temporarily?] the syrup. I am not sure if OA sugar syrup is so unpleasant to them that they would not do it at all but I have seen whitish looking syrup deposited in certain areas of the comb immediately after treatment and not eaten/removed up from those cells for weeks afterwards [were they waiting for the OA concentration to naturally drop before using this syrup?]... Was it the OA syrup? I did not want to taste it and did not have other means to analyze it. Re. blood pH, I wonder if it would be easy enough to measure the pH before and after OA treatment... Some folks have very interesting research to carry out indeed. :) Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:23:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ari wrote: " I am using 75 g / 1 litre of water / 1 kg sugar" This is almost twice the concentration suggested by our provincial = people (which I think came from the Canadian Honey Council) of 35 g / litre of 1:1 syrup. Do you still use 5 ml per line and 50 ml max per hive, Ari? Thankyou all for the interesting replies to my query. Stan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 07:40:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote: I did not want to taste it Why not? A taste of OA won't hurt you at all! did not have other means to analyze it. Inexpensive pHydrion papers will test it quickly for Ph. To test for oxalate ion, just get a little calcium chloride (for melting ice on sidewalks), mix a little calcium chl solution with a little dissolved OA, and you will immediately get a white precipitate of calcium oxalate. I did this with my elementary science students to test for oxalic acid in weeds. Very impressive! We also tasted the weeds--easy to detect oxalic. Re. blood pH, I wonder if it would be easy enough to measure the pH before and after OA treatment... I'm working on ways to deal with mitigating the pH drop in the bees' haemolymph. Looking for some private funding of a research project this coming season. Anyone out there with some cash? Randy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:25:59 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Burgess Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <45771952.7030902@tiscali.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 19:26:10 -0000, Steve Rose wrote: > I would have thought that by "dehydrate" the translator might have > meant "without water" which would have been "anhydrate" The original German text which is also available on the Swiss Dairy website is clear that it is the dihydrate which has been used. > I understand that most recipes assume anhydrate when they specify the > concentration. The dihydrate is the commonly available form of oxalic acid, and is the form used in most recipes. Scientific papers often refer to concentrations of the active ingredient, but this is not the case in this instance. There is quite a large difference - anhydrous OA has a molecular weight of 45 and the dihydrate 63. It is important to be precise about which form of a chemical is being used if you want to get the desired result (and not kill any bees!) Regards, John B -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:36:13 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Burgess Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: <45775FED.3070802@suscom-maine.net> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 00:27:25 -0000, Bill Truesdell wrote: > The molecular weight of OA is 90.04, add 36 (and change) for the two > water molecules and you get 126 for OA dihydrate. > The observant amongst you will have noticed that the mol weights in my last message were exactly half of Bill's figures. I won't go into the reasons for this, except to claim priveledge for old age! (and Bill is right) John B -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:25:20 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >" I am using 75 g / 1 litre of water / 1 kg sugar" >This is almost twice the concentration suggested by our provincial people >(which I think came from the Canadian Honey Council) of >35 g / litre of 1:1 syrup. The difference is not that big. 1 litre of water + 1 kg of sugar makes about 1,6 litres of 50 % solution. I use and recommend here 4 ml / seam filled with bees, 40 ml max for hive with one box. 50 ml max for hive with 2 boxes full of bees. When talking about grams it is always important to know what we are talking about. Iam talking about the weight of oxalic dihydrate, the normal powder that is sold in many places . Sometimes recipies mean the weight of just oxalic acid. Dihydrate has water in it so 75 g of dihydrate has much less oxalic than 75 g of pure oxalic acid. Sometimes scientists say the amounts in just oxalic acid. Have never seen oxalic acid on market in any other way than dihaydrate. Does pure oxalic acid exist in powder form ? Ari Seppälä Beekeeper and advisor Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:14:52 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>"I am using 75 g / 1 litre of water / 1 kg sugar" This is almost twice the concentration suggested ....35 g / litre of 1:1 syrup. 1 litre of water + 1 kg of sugar result in much more than 1 litre of 1:1 syrup. :)) I know it's deceiving (the first specified the amount of ingredients, the second the amount of solution). Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:22:52 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I did not want to taste it Why not? A taste of OA won't hurt you at all! I did not see a smiley :) at the end of your line so I don't know if you were teasing, Randy. [Prolonged] OA consumption can lead to kidney stones according to some sources. Better not taste it especially since one does not know for sure if the concentration has changed. I know, if anything, you'd expected the concentration to drop over time but still... better safe than sorry. >>Inexpensive pHydrion papers will test it quickly for Ph. To test for oxalate ion, just get a little calcium chloride (for melting ice on sidewalks), mix a little calcium chl solution with a little dissolved OA, and you will immediately get a white precipitate of calcium oxalate. Very interesting. Will have to try it one day. Shows who's got a good chemistry background. :) I'd like to understand how much more acidic is OA sugar solution over honey (which also contains OA and is acidic). Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:53:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: O A vaporization Comments: cc: Roy Panasiuk In-Reply-To: <45745A8A.3020504@infs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" It is interesting to read a lots of good information and sharing experiences about the use of oxalic acid. I would like to add some information based on my research over the past several years, specially in the last three years in Alberta, Canada. I gave a talk at California State beekeeping meeting about "Soft Chemicals". I did not like the labeling of oxalic acid, formic, etc. as soft chemicals. This is a turn off for use of these chemicals to control mites. If you have varroa infestation and you need an immediate control method, would you resort to soft chemicals or look for the nearest gun to shoot'em? I like to call these chemicals "Alternative Chemicals" Mites have become resistant to conventional chemicals (pesticides) and we are left with alternative chemicals. In fact, the so called soft chemicals which we are using, are harsh, corrosive, toxic and kill. I would rather to call these chemicals "alternative chemicals". These chemicals require specific conditions to achieve acceptable efficacy levels. It also requires special handling to be safe for bees and applicators. few comments: 1. Oxalic acid used for treatment of varroa is Oxalic acid dihydrate 2. Oxalic acid can be trickled or sublimated in bee hives for treatment of mites. Concentrations of applied acid for various geographic locations have been published. Warm climate areas, according to research from Italy, it is recommended to use high doses. In cold climate areas, it is recommended low doses. Please use the proper dose recommended for your location. It does not mean more is better. The less chemicals thrown in the hive is good for the bees. 3. It is safe to handle the acid with the use of chemical resistant gloves and mask. It was mentioned earlier by Keating "a good mask for vapor is highly recommended". These safety gears are recommended for a purpose. If the oxalic acid spilled or the syringe broken, the gloves will be handy protecting your hands and goggles protecting the eyes from splashed acid. In addition, for those who use OA to treat thousands of colonies, the risk is higher for exposure and accidents. Please use the proper safety gear when handling these products. So, you stay healthy to enjoy your alive healthy bees. No point to keep healthy bees and you suffer and don't get a chance to enjoy them!!!! 4. We tried feeding caged bees OA in sugar solution at very low to high concentrations. Bees did not even touch the lowest concentration of OA sugar solution. This experiment confirmed that bees don't ingest that applied OA for varroa treatment. It is a contact miticide. When OA dripped or sublimated in the hives OA crystals will cover the bees and mites. Mites will be killed as the dose is high enough to kill mites, but not bees. 5. To get consistent results, OA should be applied when their is a minimal brood/broodless conditions. keep in mind not all the hives will shut down the brood production at the same time. Too many variables will determine when a colony will shut down brood production. Just think of these variables; queen age, strain of bees, colony size, pollen availability, feeding, day light length, etc. 6. In Alberta, we found that application of oxalic in a liquid form late in the season requires too much work. You need to break the two boxes to get to the bottom box to treat it first. After feeding bees, Good LUCK breaking these boxes apart. Therefore, we are recommending using sublimation for late fall treatment. 7. The most interesting challenge is "how will a beekeeper treat 2000, 5000, 15,000, or more colonies with OA?" These number of colonies can be typical numbers in commercial beekeeping operations in North America. The question is: how many syringes will be needed to finish the application in a reasonable time? The use of garden sprayer will never deliver the recommended 5 ml/ bee space occupied with bees. We tested this delivery method. We found more than 5 ml were applied and caused killing a large amount of bees. It also decreased the brood production. Please use the recommended dose 5ml/ occupied bee space. I understand these type of questions have not been addressed by any research. It is left to beekeepers to figure it out. In my research program, I have been working on finding a simple, efficient and reliable method to deliver the recommended dose for commercial operations. We are getting there. The same challenge is applied to the use of sublimation tools "Evaporizers" applicators. We have too many models out in the market and many more home made. The question is are these tools standardized in terms of heating temperature. Oxalic acid applied to these hot plates will produce fumes that could contain oxalic acid, water and carbon dioxide. We need to maintain the integrity of oxalic acid that applied to the hive, not to break it down all the way to water and carbon dioxide. Imdorf from Switzerland tested different evalprizers, and reported variable efficacy results ranged from 20-95%. Therefore, tested applicators are important to use to achieve good control. Additionally, How many kids should we hire to do the application in commercial operations in a reasonable time and safely? These are the kind of problems that need to be addressed and standardized. 8. Yes: Oxalic acid is not the silver bullet. It will work nicely with other tested methods for controlling mites such as; resistant bees, formic acid, Apilife var, etc. Think integration!!!! What is important? Monitor and make decisions? What is the appropriate method to use. Don't forget to monitor after you treat to know if you have achieved good results or you need to retreat. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:57:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Burgess wrote: > anhydrous OA has a molecular weight of 45 and the dihydrate 63. My handbook of Chemistry and Physics list OA's molecular weight as 90.04. It is ethanedoic acid, HO2CCO2H or 2 carbon (24), 2 Hydrogen (2) and 4 Oxygen (64) which gives you 90. Formic acid is about 45, so maybe you are thinking about it instead? Plus, if you add 2 water molecules you would get a MW of 45+36=71 for OA dihydrate (but the dihydrate is listed as 126, which makes sense 90+36). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:36:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: O A vaporization In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can see from the posts on this topic just how confusing the amounts can be for a proper OA solution especially when the dihydrate is used. The density of OA is about 1.9 gm/ml so add two ml of water to one OA and you get 3.9 gm. Divide that by 3, since there are three molecules involved and you get 1.6 gm/ml for the density of the dihydrate. So you cannot even rely on densities when talking about OA unless you are very specific. Interesting, that if you take the 35gm specified by Canada and consider it pure OA, it would be close to but on the low side by 5 gm of the recommended winter dose in Randy's article. But who knows. There was a study made a while back in Germany on the different concentrations of OA and what worked best and the 3-4% solution range was most effective. Higher hurt the bees and lower than that was less to not effective. The 70gm dihydrate/1ltr H20/1kg sugar gives a solution in that range. 35gm of dihydrate would be well out of the range and probably not very effective. I goofed on my computations quite a while back and came up with recommended amounts for OA using cups and teaspoons. Interesting that what I ended up with is the current suggested amounts for winter (1 2/3 tsp OA dihydrate per cup of water and cup of sugar give about 13 gm per cup which is exactly the same as Randy's winter mix). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:50:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A taste of OA won't hurt you at all! I did not see a smiley :) at the end of your line OK, for the record, I do not recommend tasting oxalic acid, unless you are tasting it in spinach, chard, pepper, rhubarb, etc. The 3.5% solution tastes like strong lemonade. If you were inadvertently to taste a little OA solution, it wouldn't hurt you in the least (no kidding). You've got to eat a fair amount for a long time for kidney stones. Read the toxicological references in my article. Randy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:06:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Bee article in Time magazine In-Reply-To: <841713.58886.qm@web31608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Time Magazine 11-6-06 illustrations are beautiful. Be sure to correct the contents of that article for your customers: 1) It confuses honeybees with yellow jackets by calling them the creatures that "terrorize us at a picnic" 2) As critical as they are to pollination, honeybees do not pollinate grapes, which are mostly wind pollinated or self-fertile. Mea McNeil Grant Gillard wrote: > I took those two pages in Time magazine, cut them from the magazine, and took them to my print/copy center. I had them laminated and will use them as an eye-catching display on my bulletin board at the Farmer's Markets this next summer. > > Grant > Jackson, MO > > > > --------------------------------- > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---