From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:57:14 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3679486E3 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpIX016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:16 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0702B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 235968 Lines: 5674 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:35:56 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Nutrition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I couldn't resist posting on this as I've been researching the disappearing > disease. Seems it appeared regularly in AU. On theory was that the poor > soil > in certain localities provided poor pollen. Bees were helped when their > pollen was trapped out of the hive and supplements were fed. One wonders > if > it could apply in US right now. I have sent this reference to Jerry previously to see if he thought it had any connection. Just a couple of comments from one who has experienced this muck. It is on acid soils. If you have a hive that is showing symptoms and shift it onto say good agricultural country symptoms disappear with a day or so. The one big difference, from what I have been seeing on Bee-l, is that the muck exhibits itself as EFB. You do not seem to be seeing either the dead bees nor larval death. Many beekeepers have in the past been treating muck as EFB. With all my experience, both in the Department and commecially, I would not say one was positively muck or EFB without a lab diagnosis. However, time of year, it occurs aound September to December in our part of the world, and the area i.e. soild type give you a very good idea as to which is which. >From my perspective, it basically boils down to a heavy metal poisoning. When the PH of the soil drops to a high acidic value, it seems the plant has the ability to take up more of these metals and they appear in a greater concentration in the pollen and nectar. If it rains and the PH rises i.e. goes from say highly acidic to slightly acidic, then symptoms disappear. FWIW Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Hoping you have looked at www.apimondia2007.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:05:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: The African Bee in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The African Bee in Africa Anyone interested in the African bee, should obtain a copy of "Honeybees of Africa" by H. R. Hepburn (Springer, 1998). In he presents the results of his "odyssey wending from the Cape of Good Hope to the foothills of the Pyrenees". There are chapters on everything from the different bio-geographical areas to the various creatures that prey upon African bees in these various regions. Especially interesting is his chapter on "Colony Defense". He gives references that cite the extreme aggressiveness of "scutellata" that go back to 1912. He states "episodes of intense stinging are recorded in response to simple movement or even an odour". According to Hepburn, the unprovoked aggressiveness of "adasonii" is NO MYTH. Other types such as "capensis", "monticola" can be worked with ease, without protective clothing or even smoke. Evidently, the aggressiveness is highly variable. It may be affected by the time of day, the weather, and the season. Within the same country, highland bees are often more docile than lowland ones, but some researchers noted the opposite. "Scutellata" is said to be especially aggressive when swarming. Increase aggressiveness was associated with strong nectar flows. In one study 22 colonies were observed during manipulations that involved measuring the areas of brood. Some colonies were "very docile" and could be subdued with careful use of smoke. Some became very agitated and did not settle down for up to two hours. The most aggressive colonies would attack at 200 meters (more than 600 feet) "before he even got near them, much less opened them". Another section of interest is the discussion of cell size of various African species. He mentions Ruttner's description of the correlation between latitude, altitude, and the size of honey bees. However, he warns against generalizing because of the many exceptions that can be noted. The average cell size of African bees ranges from 4.6 mm (1080 per square decimeter) to 5.0 mm (925). The smallest sizes are not confined to the equatorial region, nor do the large ones necessarily occur in the more temperate sections of Africa. The two smallest are "lamarckii" which is found in Egypt, and "litorea" which ranges from the equator to 30 degrees south. "Scutellata" cells average 4.9 mm, making it one of the larger African bees. It is found from the equatorial region, southward past 30 degrees, to the tip of southern Africa. Similar latitudes include all of tropical America and the southern US. -- pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:39:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Stealth Small Cell Plastic Frame In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D. Murrell wrote: > Hi Guys, > > CS Shaw was measuring cell size on plastic frame/foundation and discovered > that Mann Lakes standard plastic frame has a cell size of 4.9mm. I measured some of mine that I used back when I was running trials of plastic for our state newsletter. It was a cursory measurement and came out to about 5.0 (using a ruler and converting) so could easily have been 4.9. It was drawn out fairly well but the bees fared no better than on other foundation. In fact, that colony was always a poor producer, survived winters but with small number of bees and eventually died. The problem in any trial like mine is the low number of colonies I tested, so I have no real idea if it was the bees or the foundation that lead to their eventual death. The bees on the larger plastic foundation did not do much better while the ones on wax did well. I did trial Dadant 5.0 wax foundation back when there was only tracheal and they did exceptionally well. I had one colony that just would not die, even with no treatments. But it was just a survivor and not a producer. I gave it to another beekeeper who lost all of his bees every year and it continued to survive. But was it the bees or the foundation? I had other colonies on the same foundation that were good and bad. When I was not able to manage them during my ill health, they all did poorly and some died. I had to re-queen the lot. That experience has tempered my acceptance of small cell as the cure-all of beekeeping, but my experience also leads me to believe that it can help, to an extent. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been posts, from time to time, on high priced honey, so we are again plowing old ground.. "The archives are good." (Mantra for the day.) There are standard features for high priced honey: 1 Perceived rarity. 2. Small, and I do mean small, quantities. 3. Esoteric names. 4. Ego enhancers. 5. Great containers and labels 6. Advertised in posh magazines. 7. Hinted at health benefits (enough to get by the FDA). I bought some expensive Hawaiian honey. It was Lantana honey. It was crystallized in a container so small it would get lost in a gnats eye I wanted to see what it tasted like and it, in my opinion, was foul. But it did look good with a great container and label. I could show it off to my friends here in Maine, so it served its purpose. A nice tourist item to commemorate a visit to Hawaii. I doubt if most people got as far as I did and actually ate some. It is amazing that people will buy an expensive item and think it must be of the highest quality only because it costs more. There is really nothing new here. My wife is an artist and I finally convinced her to push the price of her paintings up. She felt sorry for the buyer and wanted them to be able to afford her paintings, even though they were almost at cost.When she upped the price, she sold more. She is an award winning painter, but when the price was low, people thought otherwise. The higher price confirmed that she was an award winner. The same can happen with honey, but you have to have a market that will purchase it. Small operations can succeed this way but large ones have more trouble. The rarity of the product is what can drive the price up. Honey is not rare. Add to this the fact that people will buy the cheapest food, namely sugar over honey, and you need a National Honey Board to promote honey for any and all of its benefits, real or imagined. If you want a exorbitant price for your local honey, marketing is the all in all. Not quality, not purity, not taste. Sustainability comes from PT Barnum, "there is a sucker born every minute". Same for Tourists and magazine readers. (This post has been certified to be Walmart and Organic free.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:57:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: honey...you're fired! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit anybody seen this wonderful promotion Sue Bee is doing with Mr Trump? http://www.suebee.com/apprentice.asp -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:27:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:18:25 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: > >If you want a exorbitant price for your local honey, marketing is the >all in all. Not quality, not purity, not taste. really? consumers can detect no differences between a raw varietal honey and Souix Bee? so most honey is the same just sweet eh? Bill for all of your interesting and insightful posts that comment is absurb ...I wonder if you even believe it. Come on.... The notion that food should only be cheap and that there is little difference in food quality is IMO just plain ignorance. I would also argue that the label is less important then what's in the jar for repeat business. The implication that someone who pays a high price for a jar of honey is getting ripped off is utter nonsense. If the label is misleading or contains false information then I can agree its misrepresented and the term rip off may apply. I do agree too that there is some average food posing as "fancy" food in a nice package. To dismiss all nicely packaged expensive food as a rip off though seems ill informed. I suppose the wine industry is a big rip off too? IMO some of the parameters of a high quality honey that a consumer can discern are: age (honey loses some of its finest flavor qualities in the first 18 months) location it was collected moisture content flavor, (assuming it has any flavor: floral, citrus or earthen etc) clarity aroma (some not all exhibit this) texture (some honeys vary considerably) color (some honey has an interesting or different color) Producing honey, wine, cheese etc can be an art or a merely a task that is hurried through. The producer decides how he/she wants to run their business and charges accordingly. What I've seen is some folks just don't comprehend the many possibilities in the food world. They are most happy when they return from the grocer with the most for the least$ and assume that is how the rest of the world shops....NOT. Millions of people around the world shop for flavor, quality, ethics and other parameters and not all are fooled by the posers who try and offer average food in a fancy package. My advice to any beekeeper is to produce a high quality product, differentiate it from the mass produced version and sell it at whatever the local market will pay. I believe that this is the way to produce a more sustainable beekeeping industry and is more stable financially then the commercial route. Just look at European beekeepers to see how this can work, they have a lot more smal-medium sized producers who sell to the public. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:46:55 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: nutrition and minerals in honey In-Reply-To: <45CA67CB.2010401@suscom-maine.net> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 2007-02-07 at 18:59 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: > Lots of research. Dear Bill and all I meant research on the mineral content of honey over the years. It would be interesting to know if it varied greatly between crops on areas where no trace minerals were added to the soil to replace those taken, and areas where the soil is naturally rich (as in volcanic soil) or where rock dust has been used to replace minerals. Trees may be different in that roots are deep and wild areas, where there is no cropping, may show no change same mineral content. > You can have natural mineral depletion since there can > be different concentrations of minerals in different locations. All soil > is local. Indeed. > > I would take some of this with a grain of salt, since if we were really > in such dire straits since 1936 there would be a host of dietary > diseases directly related to mineral deficiency, but there are not. > Instead we are in better health than any time in history. There is a rise in many different states of unhealth, some where mineral deficiency is implicated. Many are immunity diseases. > > As a cancer survivor, Me too. And I was advised by an M.D. who had abandoned traditional medicine for approaches where diet was primary - I was advised to add carrot juice (for the vitamin - A or E I forget which), vitamin C, spirulina, and avoid the usual culprits: sugar, white flour and dairy products, red meat, tea and coffee. I eat organic foods wherever possible from my own land (an excellent shale/granite soil), from a local organic farm, or from supermarkets - that is most of my food. I am personally reassured I get what I need and much less of what might support the bowel cancer. My honey is from hedgerows and trees, no agricultural forage except unpicked cauli left too long. So, I am happy with my honey which is prized for its flavour. I am intrigued by the observation that when animals are given the choice between an organic food plant and an "inorganic" one, they choose the former. > I take much on the Internet with caution since > much of it is quackery. Me too. I look for the author's" pedigree!. > There are good sites and most are specific disease related etc I like sites devoted to health. Diseases are many and varied, health is one. If we lose it and get it back, we prize it. How about cornucopia.org which I came across by recently mistyping co-cornucopia? Back to bees and honey. What of modern studies of the mineral content of honey, selected for soil etc? Best wishes james kilty http://www.kilty.demon.co.uk/beekeeping.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:54:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Honey Moon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline At the Sue Bee website, they have bee "facts" including: The term "honey moon" originated with the Norse practice of consuming large quantities of mead during the first month of a marriage. * * * According to Oxford English Dictionary, the term in English goes back to 1546, and it is: 'The first month after marriage, when there is nothing but tenderness and pleasure' (Johnson); originally having no reference to the period of a month, but comparing the mutual affection of newly-married persons to the changing moon which is no sooner full than it begins to wane. * * * Do any of you honey lovers out there have more information about honey moon beyond this? -- pb picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:27:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: honey...you're fired! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, >anybody seen this wonderful promotion Sue Bee is doing with Mr Trump? I actually knew the piece was coming. Excellent promotion! Why do you dislike Sioux Honey Brian? Sioux is a coop of the U.S. largest beekeepers. True the coop still has to buy some honey to keep up with demand but for the most part U.S. beekeepers honey. Sure its processed but so is ALL larger packers honey. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:13:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: honey...you're fired! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:27:26 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: >Why do you dislike Sioux Honey Brian? Sioux is a coop of the U.S. largest >beekeepers. True the coop still has to buy some honey to keep up with demand >but for the most part U.S. beekeepers honey. > >Sure its processed but so is ALL larger packers honey. > >bob I would not say I have any particular feelings toward just Sioux as an organizartion or as a packer other then indifference....you're right they are probably the more ethical of the packers at least in our region. I just don't see the path that commercial beekeeping is on as being sustainable so I don't support the packer industry. I sell what they are not.....so they are quite useful as a comparative product. We do not share many of the same goals or objectives With the interstate movements of bees and the chemical treadmill the big guys are on its just one cluster after another. For all we know today they could be bringing the fall dwindle disorder or whatever we call it this week to my and your back yard in the coming months. This is lunacy! The packers are part of this problem too as the low price of honey (which they help sustain) makes interstate movement more appealing. I'm pissed off too that the Mn state bee regs have been disbanded so I cannot even find out where the small hive beetle keepers are near me, nor will there be any oversight for any beekeepers to contend with anymore. When I asked the MN Honey Producers Associations' president at the winter meeting if they would consider requiring their members to provide bee yard locations to other members like myself they were not interested (they were behind the disbanding of state regs). What a self serving position eh? I guess the message was go big or stay home chump. BTW, Marla Spivak got a fresh load of beetles last spring from a Mn hive beetle keeper who sells packages from his TX location and now has them in her research colonies at the U/M campus in St. Paul. What's wrong with this picture? I see the commericial bee industry as the equivalent to a feedlot type of industrial food production system where often ethics take the back seat to profits at anyones expense. Its just not my cup o tea... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:47:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Arnot forest bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is an abstract from an article by Tom Seeley published in ‘Apidologie’ on feral bees in the Arnot Forest of upstate New York: http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2007/01/m6063/m6063.html Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:15:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: honey...you're fired! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian, Well pardon me, but I don't think all of us are in that group, nor want to be, not that some haven't been trying to change things, though it makes life hard for us at times! Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:08:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: much Please note the subject line. "$40/lb honey". We are not talking about a roadside stand or farmers market, we are discussing selling honey as if it were a rare commodity. That is strictly marketing. Snob appeal has not yet left the human race. BTW, for those interested, I have some fine 86 "Kennebec Gold" in limited quantities. It is an exceptional prize winning vintage I only take Krugerrands. Bill Truesdell (never gives change) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:23:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: nutrition and minerals in honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Trees may be different in that roots are deep and wild areas, where there is no cropping, may show no change same mineral content. Many gardeners near the coasts collect seaweed for its rich mineral content and work it into their garden soil. I have been doing it for about 2 years on a limited scale and my vegetables seem much tastier (and more resitant to insects and fungii). I atribute it to the richer mineral content of my soil. >>Back to bees and honey. What of modern studies of the mineral content of honey, selected for soil etc? Honeydew honey is richer in mineral content than floral honey. Eva Crane, for one, had some numbers. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:29:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: nutrition and minerals in honey In-Reply-To: <1170971218.5283.27.camel@Vigor12> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit james kilty wrote: > Dear Bill and all > > I meant research on the mineral content of honey over the years. There has been lots of research on minerals in honey and the ranges of concentrations in different countries and locations. There is good info in "The Hive and the Honey Bee". Every time I open that book I learn something new. An example of different concentrations is Potassium which can range from 110 to 4733 ppm. There is not one standard mineral content for honey. I think it would be nearly impossible to show any kind of trend with those kinds of ranges. > It > would be interesting to know if it varied greatly between crops. It would vary between crops since different plants take in different quantities of minerals. That is reflected in the color of the honey. The darker the honey, the higher the mineral content. You run into a problem with plants, since specific plants like specific soils. When you do something to the soil, like adding lime, you are selecting for specific plants that thrive in that soil type. Same goes for the mineral content. There are some excellent books that allow you to identify the kind of soil you have from the weeds that grow in it. The bees also get their minerals from pollen. One interesting fact is that bees will not take nectar from a plant that has too high a mineral content in its nectar. > There is a rise in many different states of unhealth, some where mineral > deficiency is implicated. Many are immunity diseases. > Now we are getting into an area that has lots of opinion and nothing to do with beekeeping.. There is lots about this on less than scientific sites. There is no question that we need minerals, but the amounts are not great and are found in a variety of foods. A poor diet has more to do with eating any carrot no matter where it was grown instead of chips (Cape Cod jalapeño cheddar are to die for). One interesting thing that has come up in research is MS responding to intestinal worms. It seems that worms slow the progress of MS. Bee stings also seems to slow the progress of the disease. Both kick up the immune system. MS is rare in non-developed countries. Many people have intestinal worms in those countries. It is hypothesized (guessed) that their immune system has to fight the worms so is kept busy and does not attack the body, which is what MS and many auto-immune diseases do. So if you took the data- high MS in developed countries; highly developed agriculture so mineral deficiencies (not really a given, but in for sake of argument) caused by those methods means MS is caused by mineral deficiencies caused by modern agriculture. But good research show something else is at work. > I was advised by an M.D. who had abandoned traditional > medicine for approaches where diet was primary - I was advised to (clip) avoid the usual culprits: sugar, white flour and dairy > products, red meat, tea and coffee. Interesting since I have read in many articles on the benefits of tea and coffee. Milk has been show to be a cancer fighter as well as good for dieting. If sugar is bad, then honey is in that group. (Moderation is the key here.) Food nutrition and disease seems to have a flavor of the day. I have a standard caveat for all who go down the route of natural cancer cures. (No problem, James, with what you are doing since any high fiber, fresh food diet is good. I grow my own, also.) Every single cancer cure has survivors that will testify that their program works, after all "Here I am and I survived". 100% of the testimonials come from the successful use of the product. The problem is you cannot get a testimonial from all the dead people who tried it and died. We both survived cancer, but, for me, it was because it was cut out and had not spread. I could easily ascribe it to Cape Cod jalapeño cheddar potato chips. I would be ridiculed for that but not if I said it was my intake of green tea (or any other cancer fighting herb or food). > I am intrigued by the observation that when animals are given the choice > between an organic food plant and an "inorganic" one, they choose the > former. > I would love to see that study, but my guess is it is anecdotal. Present a horse with a carrot or Cape Cod jalapeño cheddar potato chips and the chips win every day. Bill Truesdell (did I mention Cape Cod jalapeño cheddar potato chips?) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:33:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: The African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Feb 9, 2007, at 12:00 AM, BEE-L automatic digest system wrote: > monticola Peter--this is a great book! I have always wondered--but know its playing with fire--what kind of cross (or cross bee) would come from some monticola stock. "According to Hepburn, the unprovoked aggressiveness of "adasonii" is NO MYTH. Other types such as "capensis", "monticola" can be worked with ease, without protective clothing or even smoke." We know that in a african --european match-up is uneven as the european bees get converted--could another "kinder Gentler" African race be integrated successfully to reduce the aggressive tendencies and still be competitive in an open mating situation. ie could this gentler behaiver persist once introduced or would adonsonii take them over as well? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:11:08 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > really? consumers can detect no differences between a raw varietal honey and Souix Bee? > so most honey is the same just sweet eh? Subject your view to a "blind consumer taste test", and you will find that for the overwhelming majority of people, Bill's observation is absolutely correct. Anyone who sells honey to the consumer will have several funny tales of buyers asking for "more of the same honey you sold me last time", with praise being heaped upon honey that the beekeeper is bemused to recall did not seem all that exceptional to him. If you hand your honey to an experienced honey judge (such as Ann Harmon here on the East coast of the USA) he/she may be able to tell you the plant from which the majority of the nectar was gathered, and, by tasting alone, tell you other detailed things about the "quality" of your honey. But don't expect the customer to become a connoisseur without education, so be prepared to do some education if you want to build a "following" for your honey based upon your view of "quality". But can the consumer do this without education? Heck, I still can't do it myself. I've attended several dozen "honey tastings" in the past decade or so,and I am lousy at even telling one varietal from another, even when I am given a list of what honey varieties are presented. If I can't match names to tastes, lots of non-beekeepers can't either. The good news is that, for most beekeepers, "local" sells well, and can command a higher price than honey from far away, or from who-knows-where. Consumers have become aware of the advantages of "local food". So, simply promoting your honey as "local" may be enough to differentiate your product, and doing so does not create the sort of ethical dilemmas presented by using meaningless and misleading terms like "raw" to describe honey. (But don't forget to call it "fresh"! Everyone asks "is it fresh?", as honey is perceived as perishable produce. They also ask how long it will "last", and are happy with the answer "forever". Funny how no one has recognized the cognitive dissonance between the two questions, and laughed out loud, but who are we to argue with paying customers?) Beekeepers are often affronted by the ignorance of the general population who buy honey, but the same ignorance exists in the mind of the consumer about ice cream. Many "premium" brands are only premium because the label makes the claim, even though cheap ice cream versus great ice cream is easier to subject to a blind taste test with compelling and consistent results. The difference is that the makers of ice cream don't bemoan the lack of sophistication on the part of the consumer, they make and package ice cream at both the "budget-conscious" customer between paychecks, and the "high-end" consumer who wants to "treat themselves" with something that they perceive as self-indulgent. (Another difference is that ice cream makers tend to know, for example what the "Black-Scholes model" for pricing options is, and what it implies for ice cream. I've yet to meet any beekeepers or honey co-op marketing types who even knew the names "Black and Scholes", proving that, as a group, we lack basic education, let alone MBAs. We don't want to admit to ourselves that we are in the food business. We all want to think that beekeeping and honey is somehow different. It isn't.) My favorite example is olive oil. Go to any of the "whole foods" type markets, or better yet, an ethnic market, and marvel at the entire wall devoted to olive oil. Luxurious bottles, exotic labels, some labels without a single word of English (but mysteriously still having a UPC code compliant with US standards, clearly proving that the lack of English on the label is pure marketing), and much of it produced in such small quantities that any one "brand" may be on the shelf for only a few weeks per year. Now, can YOU tell the difference between a $5.00 bottle of olive oil, and a $25.00 bottle? I sure can't, but if someone is willing to pay $25.00 for a bottle of olive oil, I'm pretty sure that they have convinced themselves that it is worth the price, for whatever reason. Funny how a bunch of small family operations on the other side of the planet have become such sophisticated marketers of their products that I must be nimble to buy their olive oil at my local store before it sells out, while beekeepers still speak of "getting rid of honey" as if it were a liability. Maybe $40 is a tad over the top for you. But what prevents you from at least packaging up a "gift bottle", perhaps a Muth bottle, putting a really nice label on it, and selling it at an appropriate price that nets you more profit than your usual honey? Learn from the ice cream companies and the olive oil producers. If you are buying whatever containers the bee supply houses sell, and having your labels overprinted on the usual stock label artwork, you are missing out, and leaving money on the table. I'll "give away" an approach that can get you at least an extra $2 a pound for your crop, but you'll have to just trust me and try it to see it work: 1) Get some Ball jars with metal bails. 2) Have a rubber stamp made up with your label information on it using a font that looks like hand-printing. 3) Buy a package of brown-paper lunch bags, and HAND RIP them into rough squares to be your "label". Stamp them with the rubber stamp. Apply them to the Ball jars with glue that you apply with a sponge or brush. 4) Fill the jars with your honey. 5) Set these "primitive" packages next to your best efforts using modern plastic containers and 4-color labels, and price them higher. Cover the extra cost of the more-expensive container, and then add $2 (or more!) to the price. The result is very "backwoods". One can almost hear the banjo music. If asked, explain that this honey has been produced the "old fashioned way", extracted at room temperature, not run through fancy high-tech equipment, and so on. (For most of us, a truthful description of our actual harvest and processing methods would be "the old-fashioned way", so this is not even stretching the truth!). Watch the faces when people look at the two kinds of packaging for what you know to be the same exact honey. Keep a poker face as you put the money in the pocket of the worn-out jeans you keep in the closet to only wear to the Farmer's Market. Yes, what you wear matters too, as you are part of your "product packaging", like it or not. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:21:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Need your Help with Digitization of First 20 Issues of ABJ In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Fellow beekeepers --I need your help! As you may know I have been working with the Cornell Library to get Books from the EF Phillips rare beekeeping book collection digitized for all beekeepers everywhere. If you have a computer & (fast) internet connection you can view these important volumes from early american beekeeping. Our latest choice has been the first 20 volumes of American Bee Journal from the years 1861 through 1880. This would be an incredible new addition. I have had great assistance from the beekeeping community from across the US. This last effort has slowed & we are only half way to our goal of $3000 to complete this segment of digitization. I agree that it does seem expensive but these items are very fragile & get the best of care while being scanned. Our local club acknowledges our officers efforts & past members by gifting to this cause. It is a gift that will be useful to beekeepers world wide. I was hoping that I could get each of you to bring up this at your state or local beekeeping meetings to see if we could get to this target! If you have any questions see; http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ or ask me or the library Thanx Mike Griggs President Fingerlakes Beekeepers -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:33:30 -0800 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: The "Black-Scholes model" for pricing options MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...Another difference is that ice cream makers tend to know, for example > what the "Black-Scholes model" for pricing options is, and what it implies > for ice cream. Let me the first to confess my ignorance. Frankly, I'm struggling to see what "the "Black-Scholes model" for pricing options "has to do with pricing underlyings, or "what it implies for ice cream"-- or honey for that matter. It's an interesting idea, so I'm hoping you'll expand what you were suggesting, for me, and for the rest of the class. >... I've yet to meet any beekeepers or honey co-op marketing types who even >knew the names "Black and Scholes", proving that, as a group, we lack basic >education, let alone MBAs. Maybe you've met some, and just didn't ask the right question? I've met a lot of well-educated beekeepers, and also happen to be a beekeeper that has been acquainted with the "Black-Scholes model" for a long, long time. I find it of some use in trading options, one of my hobbies. In support of your claim about lack of basic (financial) education, however, I must admit I was floored to discover a while back that the co-op I was shipping to had no currency hedges in place for their large forward sales contracts (and no clue about such things) and were getting badly beaten up by sudden and rapid the rise in the Canadian dollar at that time. As for MBAs and education, though, even the highest awards and a lofty academic position cannot guarantee wise decisions. Myron Scholes and his ideas contributed significantly to designing a financial train-wreck of historic proportions, Long-Term Capital Management. Any beekeeper or honey marketer I know has never have been able to make that large or disastrous an error. --- Note to the list: I realise that I've gotten involved in quite a few topics, and haven't replied in some cases, or acknowledged some good points made. For that, I apologise. I'm on the road a lot lately, and have been from coast to coast and back a few times, and expect to be for a few more weeks, so, please note that I'm not ignoring people. I'm just constantly on the move. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:05:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: The African Bee in Africa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Griggs Mike wrote: >Peter--this is a great book! I have always wondered--but know its >playing with fire--what kind of cross (or cross bee) would come from >some monticola stock. Yes, Hepburn really knows his stuff. Like to meet him someday. But -- I am a big proponent of Northern Bees. I would put my eggs in that basket. Especially for northern beekeepers who want to avoid bees from the south altogether. Bear in mind that that the hoarding instinct and the ability to over-winter is strong in European bees, and the instinct to abscond and migrate is strong in African & Asian bees. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:20:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Selling it. In-Reply-To: <000001c74c54$25881e70$5941edcf@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim noted that most of us cannot tell what plant a honey comes from. Tony Jadczak brings a variety of honeys to meetings and I never get them right nor do most. What is a fair truism, which I have observed at fairs, is the young and people who eat little or no honey prefer lighter honeys while the older folk and honey eaters like dark honey. I have shown this over and over in blind taste tests. It is all in the flavors of the darker honey. More "substance". The other observation I have is a that anyone who thinks their honey is the same from year to year, even in the same location, is fooling themselves.You can get entirely different tastes and color from colonies which are side by side in the same season.. It is never "my" honey. It is the bee's honey and they get it from wherever they want. I will have an occasional year when basswood comes in and it is, depending on your taste, an excellent honey that smells of mint. It can be a great seller, but, again, it is from the same colony I got a nice bland honey the year before. The colony right beside it might have none. About the only group that can claim a fairly uniform honey are the commercial beekeepers (AKA CV beekeepers- continuously vilified) who pollinate specific crops, but even then you can get the weeds that border the fields. Purple vetch under my apple trees draws the bees better than a host of apple blossoms. And the first honey of spring is more apt to be maple than dandelion. We are selling a product that is non-uniform except for the seller. We are the constant and forget taste and color and whatever else you want to add, it is really your ability to sell that is the number one factor. That has been very obvious from my time behind the counter at Fairs. If you go after the customer you sell. If you smile at them they pass you by. My brother was and is a great salesman. He had some serious health problems when young so his growth was stunted. He sold papers and would look at you with those "painted on velvet" waif's eyes and you had to buy a paper. I took his route when he was sick and had to explain I was his brother and he was getting the money. It is all in the salesman. The product was the same. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:38:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello to all, Well, the almond pollination has begun here in Calif. Like last year = there are bees still listed in the news paper ( modestobee.com = fresnobee.com ). One thing that I see often now, is that keepers are = listing ( no pkgs), they want the growers to know that there bees are = not made up from packages, also I'm getting phone calls from growers = that are looking for bees and asking if they are packages or established = hives with brood. The growers are becoming very wise to what's a good = hive and what's a dud. The keepers with good bees are doing well this = year in the almonds. Hope all do well that are here in Calif almonds, Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:07:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Midwestern beekeeper report: Calls are being made to the Midwest asking ( begging) for hives. Standards which were asked early on have been dropped. Four frames of bees minimum are NOW being accepted.. The original was for a 7 frame minimum which did not interest Midwestern beekeepers so most stayed home. Loads are starting to move towards California. I am involved with a load leaving Monday. I do not believe calls for hives would be happening if a glut of bees. Package bees: I had a call from Australia a couple weeks ago and the package shipper said he was over booked on package orders with a waiting list ( numbers up from last year). The package bees being shipped in ends as soon as hives are placed in almonds ( orders stop!)so if not going into almonds either as a package or to boost hives then where are they going? Why would beekeepers pay over a $100 for a package in January/february if they did not think they would get a return on their investment? bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:00:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Need your Help with Digitization of First 20 Issues of ABJ MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Griggs Mike" To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 9:21 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Need your Help with Digitization of First 20 Issues of ABJ > Fellow beekeepers --I need your help! > Out of curiosity Mike, how many clubs have contributed so far? I know a couple with meager fund have helped. Alden Marshall NH -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:26:37 -0800 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Selling it. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The other observation I have is a that anyone who thinks their honey is > the same from year to year, even in the same location, is fooling > themselves.You can get entirely different tastes and color from colonies > which are side by side in the same season One of my most successful marketing efforts was very simple: I moved about ten drums of soft creamed (natural granulation) honey in to my foyer and advertised. People came and lifted lids, tasted each drum and scooped out as much as they wanted into pails from the drums they liked best. It was huge hit. These drums were just of honey that was extracted and run directly into drums, then skimmed. The room was warm and the honey was soft enough to scoop. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:37:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Selling it. In-Reply-To: <45CCAD49.70302@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I segregate my honey from the different areas where I have my bee yards, and your tests confirm what I've found as well, that younger people seem to like the lighter honeys and older people prefer the darker honeys. I set up my table at the farmer's market and invite people to take my "taste challenge." You would be surprised how many people step up to my table and confess they haven't had honey since they were a kid, and until they try my honey, they had no real desire to begin eating it again. As I tell people my honey is "local," we have some interesting discussions on what constitutes "local." Some people will buy honey, irrespective of taste preference, if they know it comes from an area within two miles of their house. Why two miles? Beats me. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 07:49:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: The African Bee in Africa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Guys, Eric Osterlund has worked with Monticola - Buckfast crosses. His Elgon bee is the result. You can read about the adventures in Africa at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/osterlund/index.htm Brother Adam was part of the earlier search efforts. Be sure to look at the pictures linked to the article. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:30:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: the African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At first blush, the South Africa situation may not hold much meaning for honey bees elsewhere, but the identification issue can be applied to the present "Africanized" bee situation in the Americas. The so-called "hybrid zone" in Argentina, which includes both European or African subspecies or mixtures may be the same kind of phenomenon as found between capensis and scutellata. With reference to the "Africanized" bee in the Americas, Dr. Hepburn said in his judgement they were simply nasty, little bees from Pretoria in most of their tropical range, when queried for his opinion at the meeting. How the Africanized honey bee will play out in temperate North America is still in question and is one of the quintessential beekeeping conundrums that must be faced in the future. It is of more than passing interest that Africanized honey bees in Arizona have in fact been determined to have a higher degree of thelytoky than their European sisters. This suggests a biological reason for requeening failures sometimes reported by beekeepers trying to introduce European stock into tropical America. For more, see the review of the 2001 Apimondia Congress in South Africa: http://www.squidoo.com/beekeeping_associations/ Malcolm T. Sanford Professor Emeritus, University of Florida http://beeactor.vze.com 352-336-9744 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:43:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: HFCS (was Organic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/02/2007 13:19:22 GMT Standard Time, randyoliver@INFS.NET writes: Northern Calif beekeepers got hit hard by bad syrup this year. Too much HMF, and possibly other problems. What does HMF do to bees? They must have been exposed to it in small doses for ever. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:00:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I understand Dee correctly, what she is saying in essence is that cell size is not a reliable rapid test for AHB in areas where the size has been reduced by the beekeeper for unconnected reasons. Wings venation is taken as being a good pointer towards distinguishing between the various races of European honeybees and they are listed in Ruttner's book. Can the same test be applied as a reliable indicator of AHB? This would not be as accurate as a DNA test but could be done by the amateur beekeeper with little trouble, given some instruction. Are the wing vein indices for AHB listed anywhere? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:51:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > It is of more than passing interest that Africanized honey bees in Arizona have in fact been determined to have a higher degree of thelytoky than their European sisters. Thelytoky simply means : the origin of females from unfertilized eggs. What is being observed in Arizona is best described as *parthenogenesis* which is the ability of workers to parthenogenetically produce diploid workers and QUEENS as well as haploid drones. Only one race of bee on the planet is famous for *parthenogenesis* and it is NOT A.m. scutellata. scutellata can not survive "take overs" by A.m.capensis. Dr. Hoffman ( Tucson Bee Lab) and Myself in public (and others in private) are deeply concerned about bees in Arizona with *capensis like traits* ( thelytoky / parthenogenesis). Five years ago Dr. Hoffman expressed concern that if bees with "capensis like traits" were to enter the large commercial migratory operations doing almond pollination the industry could be in trouble. As usual the data being presented fell on (for the most part) deaf industry ears. Dr. Hoffman came back the next year with a similar warning but still not much interest from the industry. To those which do not see those docile little BLACK bees with capensis like traits as industry future problems just phone Robin Mountain to learn how capensis put Robin and his father out of the bee business in South Africa. Robin & I were speakers at the same beekeepers meeting a few years ago and we spoke on the subject of those bees in Arizona with *capensis like traits* privately. Robin said : If the USDA-ARS thought those bees were truly capensis I would have been given a call to go and look" I disagree. Dr. Hoffman presented her findings and gave her opinion. If no response from the industry she simply moves on to other research. The beekeeping industry is in dire straits right now. Beekeepers can not keep healthy hives. Beekeepers when told by the USDA-ARS what they think will help the problem ignore their advice and simply look for some new chemical or drug to solve the problem. Five years ago efforts to stop bees with capensis like traits in Arizona could have been controlled. Beekeepers could have been educated on depopulating and a plan could have been implemented. Instead the Arizona inspection service was disbanded. To me all this talk of disappearing disease is hogwash. Jeff Pettis (USDA-ARS) has given talk after talk on replacing contaminated comb! Jeff Pettis said all the large Migratory beekeepers which reported the problem had European Foulbrood in their hives. Duh! The answer is simple. They all quit using terramycin and went to using tylan. TYLAN does not control EFB. Most thought EFB was PMS. Why wouldn't they as they had not seen EFB in years as they had been using an antibiotic for years which prevented EFB. Back when the question of disappearing disease raised its head decades ago no solution was found. Many things were pointed at by Wilson and Rothenbuler but the mystery remains today and the mystery will not be solved this time. The problem is to put it simply more than one problem. Those of us which choose to drive old trucks realize when those trucks start running poorly we do an overhaul. The beekeeping industry needs an overhaul. A new direction off the chemical treadmill , with new comb and sound solutions for our beekeeping problems. This year is the year for problems to hit the largest operations. Losses are high and huge problems are going on in almonds as we speak. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:07:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > Can the same test be applied as a reliable indicator of AHB? Reliable? Even the bee labs want DNA in serious stinging instances. >This would not be as accurate as a DNA test but could be done DNA is only as accurate as the sample (as pointed out by Allen Dick earlier). Australia import service does not think much of the DNA verification provided by our USDA-ARS. Should we be worried? >Are the wing vein indices for AHB listed anywhere? They Fabis wing indices were provided to the Florida inspection service by the Tucson Bee lab. Yes they are available but not sure how to locate. The bee labs have got the program I wrote about in my ABJ article on AHB in Florida and received the CD-ROM from Tucson. FABIS is a step above simply wing indices. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:37:23 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The "Black-Scholes model" for pricing options MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Frankly, I'm struggling to see what "the "Black-Scholes model" for > pricing options... implies for ice cream" -- or honey for that matter. Don't puzzle too long - I pulled it off the top of my head (or perhaps from somewhere else!) as something that MBAs are taught that most folks never hear about. My only "point" (if there was one) was that "the market sets the price", so if honey can be sold to multiple people at $40/lb, this implies that the honey was/is "worth it", per Black-Scholes, as values don't really even "exist" until money changes hands. > Myron Scholes and his ideas contributed significantly to designing > a financial train-wreck... It was a bad and hasty choice of "textbook subjects". Whadayawant at 140 WPM? How 'bout Menger's "marginal utility" theory, instead? If there's anything with "marginal utility" to the buyer, it would be honey. I also recall the old saw about "diamonds and water", which may be more to the point when it comes to high-priced honey. > I was floored to discover a while back that the co-op > I was shipping to had no currency hedges in place for > their large forward sales contracts (and no clue about > such things) and were getting badly beaten up by sudden > and rapid the rise in the Canadian dollar at that time. I just happen to know of that co-op, and their creaky old gas-chromatograph is just as big a joke when it comes to "chemical analysis". Golly. No financial acumen to protect their members, technical assets 30 years out-of-date, ya kinda wonder what they did with all the money they skimmed off the sales of your honey, dontcha? :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: <000501c74d55$4fa4ae60$1abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Jeff Pettis said all the large Migratory beekeepers which reported the > problem had European Foulbrood in their hives. Duh! > The answer is simple. They all quit using terramycin and went to using > tylan. TYLAN does not control EFB. > The only time I have seen EFB was when I was with Tony Jadczak when he inspected commercial migratory beekeepers on the blueberry barrens. My understanding was it was normal to see a lot of it (which I did) when bees were under stress. Nothing more to add here, just an observation. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:00:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: HFCS (was Organic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What does HMF do to bees? They must have been exposed to it in small doses > for ever. Toxicity of a poison is all in the dosage. Too much HMF is toxic to bees. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:42:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: <000501c74d55$4fa4ae60$1abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Your comments regarding the ongoing colony losses in the US caused more than a raised eyebrow. I am not on site, nor in contact with any individual who has (is) directly involved! - But, picking up on the statement that all commercial outfits that had lost colonies has EFB, and at the same time mis-diagnosed it for PMS make me ask: If they thought it was PMS, then any test to indicated V.j. load levels would have sorted that point out to a negative or positive. The EFB point again, if this is the main culprit - then why are there no statements in public stating the fact that this is the simple cause of the losses. Heck, EFB would not be difficult for the academics of this world to id. Would it not also be in the gossip rounds that colonies have died but had combs containing larva appearing to have acute stomach ache even though varroa levels were below threshold. Are there so many individuals who cannot id. EFB? Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:14:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:11:08 -0500, James Fischer wrote: >> really? consumers can detect no differences between a raw varietal honey >and Souix Bee? >> so most honey is the same just sweet eh? > >Subject your view to a "blind consumer taste test", and you will find that >for the overwhelming majority of people, Bill's observation is absolutely >correct. > ok lets pick say orange blossom, buckwheat, tupelo, italian chestnut and a pure dakota sweet clover ....no difference... none to the consumer or average person ? they could not tell one from another in a blind taste test? also how then do you explain the time and money packers spend to blend their honey if it all tastes the same? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:01:17 -0800 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Putting Words in Others' Mouths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dr. Hoffman ( Tucson Bee Lab) and Myself in public (and others in private) > are deeply concerned about bees in Arizona with *capensis like traits* ( > thelytoky / parthenogenesis). I am very disappointed to see indiscreet words put into anyone's mouth, and especially when it is bound to cause ill-will, if believed. When I was a BEE-L moderator, we repeatedly refused to OK your posts, Bob, using that phraseology, and misquoting DR. Degrandi-Hoffman. In fact, I sent her a copy of the submission at the time, and asked specifically queried Dr. Degrandi-Hofman if these were here words. Normally, I am very discreet in sharing my correspondence, but, seeing as this was posted to BEE-L, I shall share her response: Here is what she said: November 14, 2003 3:55 PM I appreciate that. I have tried to be very careful in stating that the traits we have found in our African bees also are found in capensis, but I did not say our African bees have strong capensis traits. In fact they do not. Although we have seen thelytoky, it is at no where near the frequency that it occurs in capensis. Best Regards, Gloria Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman Research Leader Carl Hayden Bee Research Center USDA-ARS 2000 E. Allen Road Tucson, AZ 85719 Ph. 520-670-6380 #104 FAX: 520-670-6493 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:55:45 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: New Book Presents Beekeeping In The Worst Possible Light MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "James Fischer": " a new book positions beekeeping as one of the basic influences that turned a young German boy into Adolph Hitler." The antidote is Bee Wilson, The Hive: The Story of the Honeybee and Us, John Murray 2004. Wilson is a Research Fellow in the History of Ideas at Cambridge University UK. Goes on and on about the changing symbollism attached to bees according to the prevailing human morality. Quotes Rev Chas Butler for example telling beekeepers 'Thou must be chaste, cleanly, sweet, sober, quiet and familiar, so they (the bees) love thee and know thee from all others'. And Rudolf Steiner's view that the sexual drive in worker bees was repressed in order to acheive a higher kind of love: 'The whole beehive is permeated with life based on love. In manyways the bees renounce love , and thereby this love develops within the entire beehive. You'll begin to understand the life of bees once you're clear about the fact that the bee lives as if it were in an atmosphere pervaded thoroughly by love.' And on and on. 'Good' or 'evil' are in men, not nature. Thank goodness for scientific objectivity! Robin -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 07:47:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: New Book Presents Beekeeping In The Worst Possible Light MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by jdphipps@OTENET.GR to the BEE-L = list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously = posted material. ________________________________ From: John Phipps [mailto:jdphipps@otenet.gr] Sent: Sun 2007.02.11 06:22 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: Re: [BEE-L] New Book Presents Beekeeping In The Worst Possible = Light Bees in Literature. I find Leo Tolstoy interesting as regards his comments on bees. In Ressurrection he writes: "We may deal with things without love - we cut down trees, make bricks, hammering iron without love - but we cannot deal with men without it, just as one cannot deal with bees without being carerful. If one deals carelessly with bees one will injured them and will oneself be injured." Interestingly, in his same book, Nekhlyudov who seduced Maslova - who was then deserted and became a prostitute - feels that their earlier, happier and chaste relationship was something she struck out of her recollections "closed up and plastered over so that they should not escape; as bees, in order to protect the results of their labour, sometimes plaster up a nest of wax-worms". Tolstoy was a beekeeper and bees are often alluded to in his works, but I have never come across honeybees dealing with waxmohs in this manner. John Phipps Editor: The Beekeepers Quarterly Neochori, Agios Nikolaos, Messinias, Greece 24024 webpage: www.iannisphoto.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 04:25:34 -0800 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: The "Black-Scholes model" for pricing options MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My only "point" (if there was one) was that "the market sets the price", > so if honey can be sold to multiple people at $40/lb, this implies that > the honey was/is "worth it ...as values don't really even "exist" until > money changes hands... ...As in the old saying, "The more you pay, the more it's worth". Value, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That is a big part of the picture, alright, but to a greater or lesser extent, a lot of people don't go along with that idea, and believe that there is a right, or "honest" value for things. Many believe that "value" relates to more than money, and that markets cannot be allowed to be totally unrestrained by ethical considerations or other outside factors. I can see both sides of this, and don't think that this question is something that is simple to discuss or reconcile, but that we all have an intuitive understanding. Any one way of arriving at valuation falls short of giving the whole picture, except, perhaps at one brief point in time. Markets are notoriously irrational at times; emotion, deceit and ignorance distort prices temporarily (as is possible in this case). Sometimes over-arching considerations enter the picture, as, for example, when CNOOC decided to buy Unocal. Seems to me that totally unrestrained markets can lead to well-documented abuses (robber barons), just as the end point of the "honest value" approach leads to price controls, scarcity and abuses, too. Consider Venezuala lately. Most of us prefer a mix. > I just happen to know of that co-op, and their creaky old > gas-chromatograph is just as big a joke when it comes to "chemical > analysis". Golly. No financial acumen to protect their members, technical > assets 30 years out-of-date, ya kinda wonder what they did with all the > money they skimmed off the sales of your honey, dontcha? It's not as if the management are taking it home. Successive managements and boards have just proven to be unsophisticated and misguided, but somehow, in spite of that, been lucky enough to manage to keep on keeping. Plus, the members are willing to put up with a lot and subsidize the repeated losses through reduced returns, with hardly a whimper. Moreover, more than a few beekeepers have been ripped off by artbitrary and capricious policy changes, and/or actions directly contrary to the direction from the membership, and just silently gone away. I am one. It is the Canadian way. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 07:38:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Morphometry as a Tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/02/2007 08:31:33 GMT Standard Time, rrudd@EIRCOM.NET writes: AHB by behaviour that can be traced back to Kerr's experiment. ARS would be able to develop the database by the measuring of colonies which were tainted by AHB, Have we a reader in Africa who can measure African bees of the race (Scutellata I think) that Kerr used? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 07:51:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > ok lets pick say orange blossom, buckwheat, tupelo, italian chestnut and a pure dakota sweet > clover ....no difference... none to the consumer or average person ? they could not tell one from > another in a blind taste test? > We are going far afield here and it is difficult to keep on the subject which is $40 honey. Tell them that there are two kinds of honey and they will group them in two groups. Tell them three and there will be three. Add two of each and they will be hard pressed to identify two of the same, except for buckwheat which is a member of the tar group and used in upper NY to pave roads. Your main point was your local honey. But you bring up honey, some of which does demand high price since it is "rare" but certainly is not collected by bees in Minnesota.. We in Maine ask for higher prices on blueberry and raspberry honey, but not $40/oz.. > also how then do you explain the time and money packers spend to blend their honey if it all > tastes the same? > Again, we are talking about selling it for $40. There is more than taste to honey. There is also color and viscosity. Commercial sellers want uniformity. Put two bottles of the same label with different colors on a shelf and the buyer will think it one is "off" and will not buy either. Which is just what happened to a jar of my honey I sent to a friend.. It was fresh from the comb and had a little trace of wax on the top. They thought it was mold and had gone bad and threw it out. Cost $10 just to ship it to California. Bill Truesdell (die horse, die! But we do get exercise kicking it.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:04:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing - The Rest of the Story? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris: Are the wing vein indices for AHB listed anywhere? Reply: Not as you think they would have been, and disclaimers were in original FABIS measurement guides for using bees not in the original doings for area specific taken from.So most nowadays IMPOV are just comparing apples to oranges, and no one I know compares to scutts like the european do.By the way when we blind tested the system in the 1980s even we were already over 90% AHB long before they were even close with bees in our area, so much for that! Just my take. Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:55:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20070210112618.04607640@pop.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Malcolm T. Sanford It is of more than passing interest that Africanized honey bees in Arizona have in fact been determined to have a higher degree of thelytoky than their European sisters. This suggests a biological reason for requeening failures sometimes reported by beekeepers trying to introduce European stock into tropical America. For more, see the review of the 2001 Apimondia Congress in South Africa: http://www.squidoo.com/beekeeping_associations/ Reply: Especially when the trait was noted here prior to, along with smaller cell size in most of all southern Arizona as we took the whole local club with us, not that most all now from 125 bearly number even 9 anymore due to politics of the game. For you too Malcolm to refresh your memory of family doings Ed and I freely shared to help not hurt industry. Traits that are found in many races/strains besides Capenis FWIW, but who cares for reality checks anymore!: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/bsmay1991.htm D- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:09:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>$20-$40/lb honey is in no way remotely "sustainable". >Really the guy is turning business away what's not sustainable about his operation? Is "sustainable" not a word you use yourself, for example, with you organically inclined customers? If so, what do you mean by it? What do others of you on the list mean by it? Certainly, sustainable beekeeping must sustain/profit the beekeeper, but if we're talking long-term profitability, then we're also talking profit that doesn't come at the expense of ripping ANYBODY else off: not himself (as you pointed out), but also not his customers, not his workers, not his suppliers, not posterity, not even the topsoil, or the gene pool, etc., etc. Of course, nothing's perfect, but sustainability isn't some simple, narrow standard. Production and marketing methods that rely heavily on non- renewable resources would commonly be called "unsustainable" in circles that talk about "sustainability." I'd also be hard pressed to define "sustainable" without talking about "local." I'm not trying to make a case for sustainability here, but *IF* we're going to talk about sustainability, I feel very strongly that we ought to do so with some integrity. >>Seems exceedingly obvious to me that the guy is ripping people off. I'm >>sure you agree, at least implicitly, because I'm sure you don't buy $20/lb >>green beans, $40/gallon milk, and $60/lb pork, or do you? >What is obvious from a cornfield in Iowa is a different reality in NYC. Even in NYC, the kind of people that pay over ten times the conventional price for honey, aren't paying over ten times the conventional price for green beans, milk, or pork. (And that's not to say they aren't getting ripped off even still.) Brian, do you really think $40/lb isn't a rip- off? If $40/lb isn't a rip-off, what is? We've been over this before, though. There are always going to be unsustainable standards that we can choose to gauge prices by, for example, the elite of New York City. If their standard is the standard by which our prices get set and our marketing is defined and, in turn, our management methods are defined, then our beekeeping is being defined by a very unsustainable standard. If my neighbors are eating Chinese honey (or corn syrup) because I'm selling my honey at high prices to New York City, then I, as someone that values sustainability, see that as a failure on my part. >Your generalization on lawyers... I believe the only generalization I made about lawyers (that move to Hawaii) was to assume the guy probably had plenty of money to start with. That his honey is an unsustainable rip-off at $40/lb is true whether he's a lawyer or not. >If you knew much about organic food production in the USA you would know that Walmart is the >largest seller of organic food and has promised to sell organic at pennies above the other non- >organic slop they peddle. I know enough about organic food production to question the truth of that claim. Can you substantiate it? Or does it not mean what I (and most others) first took it to mean, i.e. Walmart sells some organic food and Walmart's total sales exceed any other organic retailer's total sales? >You comments about making a living; Eric when or if you move up beyond your sideline operation >and pay your bills 365 days a year with your bees maybe we can discuss some of the economics of >producing, packaging and marketing honey. I think I can say that $40/lb honey is an unsustainable rip-off from about any vantage point. Nonetheless my half-time farming ventures, for which honey provides two-thirds of my profit, do generate enough income to pay our (family of four) bills 365 days a year. My other job, which is bee supplies, provides a welcome cushion, but I could pretty easily expand my beekeeping to provide a comparable cushion. The way I set my prices, for perspective, is to charge $2/lb wholesale or $3/lb retail, plus the cost of the jar and label, plus 50-75c/lb extra for special varieties I separate out. On average, I make about $3/lb. That average would drop if I expanded, because I'd have to sell more wholesale, but $2/lb wholesale might actually be more profitable than $3/lb retail by the time I count all the time and money and mileage that goes into farmers' markets, etc. As for my "organic" credentials, I haven't used any medications at all in over a year. The only medication I used the two years prior to that was sucrocide, and then only very selectively. I have fed sugar syrup in the fall (15-20lbs/hive avg.) >One of the central messages in the Ominvores Dilema is that the cost of food is held artificially >low ... >So small beekeeps that produce a raw or organic honey of high quality should do what? I guess >your alleged option might clear that up? Obviously selling it cheap as you apperently imply.... ... >I'm interested to hear your ideas Eric on how to make a FULL TIME living from beekeeping other >then going commercial? I don't want to give you the idea that there's just one other option. I'm pursuing one model, as one example, that I would consider fairly sustainable. My model is nothing super special or unique. I also think (thinking of Allen's recent reminder about good questions) that your insistence on "FULL TIME" is potentially misleading. Maybe I should drive around to twenty different farms to keep bees, but maybe it would work out better (and more sustainably) if twenty different farmers kept bees on the side on their own farmsteads. I certainly wouldn't dismiss that option as you seem to want to do. (The division of labor generally runs contrary to sustainability.) Nonetheless, having made those qualifications, I'll try to give you some answers. First, I think, yes, we should "sell it cheap," insofar as that means avoiding certain costs. As much as possible, I think we should avoid transportation costs. The closer to home we can sell our honey, the better. I also believe in selling honey primarily as food as opposed to a gift or as a status symbol or as medicine or as a specialty product. There are substantial marketing costs to selling honey in these other (other than food) ways. I also think we should avoid middlemen as much as possible. If you think my $3/lb average is "cheap," I'll remind you that I'm making 200-350% of what goes to the beekeeper for the average pound of US honey. I'm guessing you, Brian, will sympathize with my next cost-cutting suggestion, which is to avoid trucking costs (for moving our bees) as much as possible. Hopefully, you can see how this is starting to paint a picture for a system that can produce honey both more sustainably AND affordably. >What truly baffles me about your disdain for pricey honey is how much the honey/bee industry has >struggled in the past 2 decades. If we all are getting a fair price then why has the number of >beekeepers in the last 15 years dropped like a rock? If you're going to talk about big picture issues like this, you're going to need to welcome business models that provide honey to people that can't afford $40/lb. Your recommendation may keep a half dozen full-time beekeepers in business across the country, but you're talking about an extremely limited market (and a very unsustainable model). If you don't want the number of beekeepers to keep dropping, you need to welcome sideline beekeeping and all other sorts of beekeeping at the margins, and you need to think of honey as a viable and affordable food for regular people. With a proper, healthy cost-accounting, I think that's quite possible. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:56:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Politics of the beekeeping industry, Re: [BEE-L] the African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: <807216.38199.qm@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: Dee Lusby not that most all now > from 125 bearly number even 9 anymore due to politics of > the game. I am small potatoes beekeeping-wise and am apparently ignorant as to the politics of the industry. But since they come up when the discussion of smaller bees, and changing cell size, thelytoky and all of the things this manipulation is said to do for the bees and the beekeeper alike come up, I would like to know what political fallout has driven these beekeepers out of business? Is beekeeping so fraught with political intrigue that 92.8% of the beekeepers you refer to have been eliminated from the "game"? My experience is that "politics" is often used as a scapegoat for normal processes/attrition. Can anyone show me that this is not the case in this instance? I have asked this before, and never received a strait answer. And IF so I think the answer may have a rather significant impact on the industry as a whole, commercial, sideliner and hobbyist. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:01:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Putting Words in Others' Mouths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, In fact she did say *at the time* and also a year later at another of her presentations i attended * capensis like traits*. Not thelytoky as all she was seeing. With a full room of beekeepers its hard to dispute what was said. As I remember correctly you were not in the presentation. I have got the tape recording of her presentation and attended both of her presentations. Many times the USDA-ARS moves to silence. I believe they did in this case. I am well informed on capensis. We have had this conversation before on BEE-L and I stand my ground as I did then. I have got the presentation on tape. I asked Dr. Hoffman the first question about her use of capensis like traits. Robin Mountain was in the same presentation and as much an expert on capensis as we have got in the U.S. and he was first in line to speak directly with her after the presentation. I saw the slides. I rest my case! If I did not have the tape ( and my notes) perhaps I would not be so bold. Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:44:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 07:51:52 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Your main point was your local honey. But you bring up honey, some of >which does demand high price since it is "rare" but certainly is not >collected by bees in Minnesota we do get exercise kicking it.) It was? Please reread my posts. I was defending the ability of ANY beekeeper to charge the market price for organic or other raw varietal honey. In many large cities around the world including the USA there is a vibrant market for this kind of honey. You and Mr. Fisher then tried to broadbrush all honey as being the same which is hogwash. Unlike the artisan cheese or wine industry the U.S. bee/honey industry appears to be full of stubborn and or ignorant types who persist in the notion that anything expensive is a rip off. This high end market for honey is riding the wave of interest in natural and organic food. For those who don't care fine, for the rest of us we are tring to move beyond the ubiquitous honey bear and find a way to make a living off from several hundred colonies. This model is the opposite of the approach deeply ingrained in the US bee industry which is the IMO stale and financially unattractive game of producing commodity-like honey. I might add that the model I am advocating allows for proper management of colonies not conveyor belt beekeeping that relies on massive numbers of hives and on a variety of questionable ethics and/or inputs . As many have noted our industry is in trouble, why not look at a new way of doing things that is more sustainable for our bees and for our company ledger? I don't understand the fierce resistance to this concept on this board. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:49:52 -0800 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Putting Words in Others' Mouths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In fact she did say *at the time* and also a year later at another of her > presentations i attended * capensis like traits*. Not thelytoky as all she > was seeing. > > With a full room of beekeepers its hard to dispute what was said. As I > remember correctly you were not in the presentation. It's been a while, but it seems to me that, at the time, you were referring to the previous Phoenix meeting, and, if you were, both Aaron and I were in the room, as I recall. At any rate, knowing both you and Dr. Degrandi-Hoffman about equally well, I would take her word about what she said over your version of what she said. Moreover, in the event she misspoke herself, that, her statement presented here indicates what she was trying to say and what she means. > I have got the tape recording of her presentation and attended both of her > presentations. You say you have the tape. Well, let's hear it. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:35:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Politics of the beekeeping industry, Re: [BEE-L] the African Bee in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, Haven't heard from you in awhile (except on another list). I assume you are referring to bee lab politics? I actually wish beekeepers and others feeding information to the press were as cautious as bee lab releases. All bee labs I have been involved with writing about censer all published data. If reporters for the news media would do the same then accurate information about the die off would be done. I have got an article which will be in the April issue of ABJ about a bee lab. The first step was a meeting between the head of the bee lab and the head of the unit in the unit meeting room. Both wanted to know what I was going to publish. They gave their approval with the condition the lab got to read first and edit if needed. I was given many documents pertaining to the lab such as when built and the current research and a list of employees. Once my article was done (from my notes and spending the day interviewing) the finished article was sent for approval. Was reviewed by the powers that bee at the USDA-ARS. A single edit was asked for which was a change in the wording of a single sentence. Now if you ask me I listen very well and take accurate notes. All the labs compete for various research projects. Misquoting is a problem. Back to the original discussion. I point to the heading of Dr. Hoffman's power point presentation which was to inform she felt these bees were a threat to the almond pollination if the entered to apiaries of large migratory operations. Hello? I am fairly busy today but the exact presentation title was posted by me in the prior archive discussion. I can dig up in stacks of papers but if a BEE-L member goes back to those discussions please post the title of her presentation. Thanks in advance! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:55:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Putting Words in Others' Mouths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, >It's been a while, but it seems to me that, at the time, you were referring to the previous Phoenix meeting, and, if you were, both Aaron and I were in the room, as I recall. I was not at the Phoenix meeting but you both were at Savannah ABF ( or I am pretty sure you were which was when the presentation we are discussing was ). I think the next year was in Kansas City. >At any rate, knowing both you and Dr. Degrandi-Hoffman about equally well, I would take her word about what she said over your version of what she said. I hope you and I can agree to disagree( again) ! Not worth rehashing again but I am sure Dr. Hoffman does not want to push the issue any farther than a one line statement to you. I certainly think Dr. Hoffman is an excellent researcher and is doing work which is of benefit to the beekeeping industry. I do understand why she would recant later ( maybe under peer pressure or not). I am willing to drop the subject an move on. After all the posts last go around we ended up having to "agree to disagree" bob Ps. In poker when you have a wining hand you go "all in" "All in" -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:16:06 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: <45CE7481.3080403@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 2007-02-10 at 19:42 -0600, Peter Dillon wrote: > -Heck, EFB would not be difficult for the academics of this > world to id. Nor even the amateur - white guts, knobbly, instead of pollen coloured. James Kilty http://www.kilty.demon.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:21:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: HFCS (was Organic foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How much is too much? Would it be total intake or so many parts per million? Chris In a message dated 11/02/2007 05:09:48 GMT Standard Time, randyoliver@INFS.NET writes: What does HMF do to bees? They must have been exposed to it in small doses > for ever. Toxicity of a poison is all in the dosage. Too much HMF is toxic to bees. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:40:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/02/2007 05:10:39 GMT Standard Time, pdillon1@MTS.NET writes: Are there so many individuals who cannot id. EFB? Peter: In a word 'Yes!' Until the advent of the new Vita test kits (and even they aren't always right) it was impossible accurately to diagnose EFB outside a laboratory as so many other things can be confused with it. The only time I saw it, just a couple of cells in a nuc, in my bees I called in the Bee Inspector as the law (UK) demands. He said he thought it was probably a touch of sac brood but sent off a sample anyway. It tested positive. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:40:45 -0800 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Putting Words in Others' Mouths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With a full room of beekeepers its hard to dispute what was said. Well, with all those witnesses, I haven't heard anyone else stand up and say you got it right--and Dr. Degrandi-Hoffman herself disputes your interpretation of here words.. > I have got the tape recording of her presentation and attended both of her > presentations. I rest my case! If I did not have the tape ( and my notes) > perhaps I would not be so bold. Well, let's see them, Bob. Also, remember, we all know that, by selective editing, anyone can be made to say anything. Context is everything. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:33:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, I am only saying what was told us by Jeff Pettis ( head of Beltsville Bee Lab) at the American Beekeeping Federation meeting in Austin , Texas. The presentation: "Finding the TRUE CAUSE of Colony losses" ( Friday Jan.12 11:15 Am.) Jeff said multiple factors seem to be involved and explained. Jeff Pettis " M. pluton was found in samples from deadouts of the large migratory bee kills". The largest beekeeper involved and first to report large scale losses ( personal longtime friend) is having ALL his deadout comb treated by radiation. He is on top of the situation. He accepts what Jeff has said and is acting accordingly. He asked my advice on two occasions and I think he is on the right track and by taking what Jeff said to heart his bees will be back booming again this spring! The others I spoke with are back to business as usual. Jeff pettis has repeatedly warned beekeepers about rotating out comb on which fluvalinate & coumaphos has been used and pointed as a possible cause for the new problem of dying hives. Jeff pointed to the virus issue. The work presented by Diana Cox- Foster ( Penn State) was a real eye opener about bees being able to pick DWV off blossoms such as in almonds and bring the virus back to hives without DWV. Also the best way to rid the hive of past virus contamination on comb was to replace comb and POWER WASH boxes. I told my friend above in my opinion radiation would kill the virus contamination along with EFB & AFB. Private conversation with USDA-ARS researchers seem to share the same opinion. Sadly in my opinion many of the large beekeepers are becoming box movers and bee feeders ( feed lot beekeeping) instead of real in the hive beekeepers. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:44:16 -0800 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Getting it Right MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Five years ago Dr. Hoffman expressed concern that if bees with "capensis > like traits" were to enter the large commercial migratory operations doing > almond pollination the industry could be in trouble. Actually, in taking myself back, I do seem to recall some part of her discussion that, out of context, could have been misinterpreted that way, but the words were in the *hypothetical* and also parenthetical context of what would happen if someone somehow imported the problematic mutation of capensis, not in the context of any existing North American bees. The off-topic comments, possibly in response to a hypothetical question, were about capensis itself, and what it would do to beekeeping if or when it arrived in North America. I don't recall the phrase "bees with "capensis like traits", but then, capensis, if they ever did arrive, would, by definition have bees with "capensis like traits". However, remember, this was a *sidebar*, a distraction, in a discussion of what is actually being observed in the South Western US, and possibly was these speculations were misunderstood by some to be actual, rather than hypothetical. This is a perfect example of why politicians, and smart civil servants try to avoid conjecture and hypothetical statements or potentially misrepresentative sound bites. It seems that large percentage of the population either aren't listening well and perk up during a part where they missed the underlying premise, or can't tell the difference between, "let's pretend for minute", and "this is real". I see this a lot when I carefully write an article, only to have some readers pick out a few words here and there and react to them, missing the meaning entirely, and often seeing the reverse of what I am saying. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:04:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Getting it Right MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In response to Bob's posts Allen wrote, > It seems that large = percentage of the population either aren't listening well and perk up = during a part where they missed the underlying premise .... < =20 This is closer to my recollection of the presentation. I remember = perking up at times and wishing I had more coffee. It was the first = time I heard tell of the manner in which AHB can take over a hive. = That's the piece of the presentation that caught my attention. I'm too = small potatoes and too far removed from the southwest to have = appreciated the impact on the entire industry. I believe it was in San = Diego in 2001, although memory may not serve me well here, which is why = I have not weighed in on the exchange. =20 Aaron Morris - wondering if I heard what she said, or if I heard what I = think she said or if I remember hearing what I thought I was thinking = she was saying when I may have heard her say something else. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:55:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Cost of a jar of honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Brown wrote: > > The way I set my prices, for > perspective, is to charge $2/lb wholesale or $3/lb retail, plus the cost of > the jar and label, plus 50-75c/lb extra for special varieties I separate > out. On average, I make about $3/lb. That average would drop if I > expanded, because I'd have to sell more wholesale, but $2/lb wholesale > might actually be more profitable than $3/lb retail by the time I count all > the time and money and mileage that goes into farmers' markets, etc. What I am going to add is also well covered in the archives, and that is the actual cost of that jar of honey. Side line beekeepers tend to not figure actual costs, which includes labor and all the attendant costs of that labor. You allude to it in your time and trips to the market. I know you understand that is only a part of the labor expended. Most employees do not know the actual cost to the employer of their labor. Only the self employed really know, since they pay all the costs up front and transparently. Even then the self employed often omit medical and retirement from their costs and hope for the best. In essence, your take home pay from your job is about half or a bit less than the total cost to the employer, so if you take home 30k it is costing your employer 60k or somewhat less, depending on the level of benefits (closer to 60k for government and lower, maybe 45-50k for non-government). I agree with you that "sustainability" is being incorrectly used. What should be discussed is "what is the business model". There are many examples of "rarity" and price used to keep a market going. Just look at cosmetics and perfume industries. Forget the $40 per pound. Here we are in the ounce and fraction of an ounce. Forgive me for the last paragraph, but I could not resist the additional kick at the horse. The problem with the $40 thread is it is now all over the place and no one has any idea of what they are talking about, since there are so many divergent ideas and you have no idea just what is being addressed- $40 honey, "sustainability", my honey tastes great, less filling, ... Bill Truesdell (who now understands why he is so often in the fetal position after reading the BeeL) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:58:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] the African Bee in Africa Hello Chris & All, Chris wrote: >In a word 'Yes!' > The only time I saw it, just a couple of cells in a nuc, in my bees I called in the Bee Inspector as the law (UK) demands. .When I was on the Irish Beekeeping list years ago the subject of European Foulbrood ( E. F.)came up often. When I was asked about the U.S. and E F. I think you might remember my answer. "All the U.S. treats spring and fall with terramycin and most beekeepers would not know E.F. if they saw it." I have seen plenty of EF through the years mainly because I only treated when necessary. Before Parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) E.F. was easy to see for most beekeepers because E.F. only effects the very young larva and AFB the late stage larva pupa. However now PMS effects the larva so looks like E.F.. I have not had a hive with PMS in over five years. A friend had over a thousand boxes with what he believed was PMS this year. Another beekeeper friend in Florida emailed me last year that treating with terramycin cleared up his PMS and thought I would want to know. I passed the information on and the beekeepers said that was not possible. Thinking back I think what he had was E.F. E.F. & AFB 101: When looking at larva for E.F or AFB."White is right" If yellow or brown I would suspect E.F.in very young larva. A few cells might be sealed with E.F. but for the most part . E.F. effects the still coiled larva in the base of the cell . AFB is usually in the late larval stage. Discoloration of mature larva or pupa is one of the main indicators of active AFB. Once you smell AFB then smell helps in detection as well as being ropy. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:28:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: Need your Help with Digitization of First 20 Issues of ABJ Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >Alden Marshall asked how many clubs have contributed so far? Alden, I have turned all money collecting over to the library offices! they do list who has donated as a means of giving credit See this link for recognition for previous donations; http:// bees.library.cornell.edu/b/bees/credits.html See this link to see the donation list for the present task; http:// bees.library.cornell.edu/b/bees/ABJ.html You too can get on the list by donating a small amount! Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:40:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, Re:EFB identification. Agree with you. My point is that Commercial beekeepers one would think be able to see and react to brood in a state of ill health as exhibited by the symptoms of EFB. Definite ID would need proving in a lab. One symptom that I consider EFB give-away in the field is the appearance of visible tracheal pathways on the infected larva. Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:52:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: HFCS & Atrazine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was thinking about possible atrazine residues in corn syrup and atrazine's overaall impact on bees. reading from the NYT's " A couple of years ago, a U.C. Berkeley herpetologist named Tyrone Hayes, while doing research on behalf of Syngenta, Atrazine's manufacturer, found that even at concentrations as low as 0.1 part per billion, the herbicide will chemically emasculate a male frog, causing its gonads to produce eggs — in effect, turning males into hermaphrodites. Atrazine is often present in American waterways at much higher concentrations than 0.1 part per billion" Europe has banned the use of the chemical while presently it's used on 70% of all corn in the USA. If this stuff is that powerful in small amounts to an amphibian what are the potential effects on bees who in some regions live in a cloud of this stuff, pick it up in the water and then my question about corn syrup exposure too. Does anyone know of studies looking at bees and atrazine? and what levels it can be found in corn syrup? Seems like the jury is still out on this material concerning human risk so why would we not be concerned about it with honey bees? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:29:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: CCD update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The CCD is getting some press - and as usual, some of it is wrong. I'm just back from California, where the CCD looked at colonies. Jeff Pettis and Nathan, Dennis VanEngelsdorp, David Westervelt, Scott Debnam, and myself examined colonies, took samples. Still no definitive answers. We found colonies with the same symptoms as I and David saw in Florida. Severity of the disorder ranged from mild to over 60% loss. In one situation, three holding yards were in the same field, each about .5 mile apart, forming a triangle. One yard had collapsed - over half the yard contained dead outs, and about half of the remaining colonies were more or less gone. None of the remaining colonies were adequate for pollination. Another yard in same field had some dwindling colonies. The third yard was fine, bees or all ages, good food stores. These three yards came from three different states. As we've seen before, bees in the collapsed yard were not robbing OR being robbed by bees from the other two, relatively nearby yards -- yet each collapsed hive had a good 30-40 lbs of honey. In the best yard, the few deadouts (< 1%) that were found, had been robbed out, or were being robbed. Note, the collapsed yard had lots of food, and had to have had strong colonies at some time. Food stores and pollen stores were plentiful in the stacks of deadout boxes. We did not see as much chilled off brood as in Florida -- but it was cool in California, without a lot of blossom. Some pollen was being collected. Looks like most hives had a brood break as evidenced by a lack of capped brood -- but most colonies, whether displaying the dwindling or not, had newly laid eggs and young larvae. Looking in the stacks of deadouts -- we did find brood frames with chilled off brood, as in Florida. So, the collapse occurred when both food and brood were plentiful. At a California meeting/dinner of beekeepers (~ 100 beekeepers) last week, a show of hands indicated some beekeepers had less than 20% losses, good bees, some had 20-40% losses - but there were a fair number reporting losses of 40-60%, and even a few with 60% or greater. As in Florida, this disorder is evidenced in many migratory operations, but it is also seen in non-migratory bees. We keep adding states, the latest seen in California added Idaho and Utah. As per the press -- I did not say that any colony had collapsed 'after they had been put in the almond groves' as indicated by the Palm Beach Post. I did say that many colonies had collapsed in CA before being placed into the groves AND that I hoped that beekeepers did not combine affected colonies, because that could lead to later collapses in the groves. This disorder continues to look like it may be communicable. Add good bees to bad, you've got a recipe for additional losses. That experiment has been conducted by several beekeepers -- in some cases yards recovered, but in about 50% of the cases, adding good bees to bad resulted in loss of both. As per shortages of bees -- the meeting that we went to and conversations with beekeepers seem to indicate that there is NO SURPLUS of bees, nor is there a severe shortage in California, as of end of last week. Most beekeepers had placed their colonies and were meeting their contract obligations. There were reports of a few hundred unplaced colonies here and there (as of last Thursday). However, there were rumors of growers who were waiting until the last minute to get bargain prices on bees -- they may be in for a rude shock. Prices aren't likely to drop, unless a new batch of bees gets delivered to CA -- and anyone needing large numbers of colonies may be hard pressed to find them. Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:27:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Politics of the beekeeping industry, Re: [BEE-L] the African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: <001301c74e02$f80dbee0$12bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello Keith & All, > Haven't heard from you in awhile (except on another list). > Been around, largely lurking - the 7 week old leaves little time for active participation. > I assume you are referring to bee lab politics? > I don't know - I do know trhat some folks like to balme the reduction in the number of beekeepers today by slinging the word politics around and I just want to know what political intrigue could possibly decimate the numbers of beekeepers as Dee described. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:38:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: radiation treatment specs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The subject of radiation treatment for EFB or AFB is being discussed but radiation sources and treatment parameters were not described. I searched the archives and could not find a definitive answer to that question. So if a beekeeper was looking for a company to do some radiation treatment of combs and equipment what are the specs one would be asking for? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:56:49 -0500 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] radiation treatment specs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You may wish to view the Canadian Honey Council document: http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=3D5218 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:00:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Politics of the beekeeping industry, Re: [BEE-L] the African Bee in Africa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Benson wrote: ,,,I just want to know what political intrigue could possibly decimate the >numbers of beekeepers as Dee described. Hello Keith! Would this be an example of ‘politics’ decimating beekeepers, and or having great potential to do so? Politics and Beekeeping: http://www.honighaeuschen.de/index.php?id=587&L=2 Betrayed and Sold Out: “What one does not want to accept is simply not mentioned. All this has fuelled our mistrust, and it raises the suspicion that the bee monitoring was only intended to keep beekeepers quiet and to give the chemical industry time to continue unhindered in using the plant protection products that were the focus of criticism.” "Never sink so low that you will even drink the mess they pull you through!" http://www.honighaeuschen.de/index.php?id=1017&L=2 Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:12:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Five years ago efforts to stop bees with capensis like traits in Arizona could have been controlled. With all the other capensis traits aside, are capensis-like bees tolerant of varroa? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:04:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: radiation treatment specs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, > radiation treatment for EFB or AFB is being discussed but radiation sources and treatment parameters were not described. I had several discussions on the above and also the possible use of Ethylene Oxide Fumigation. Quite a bit of research was done on ETO fumigation back in the 80's by Dr. Shiminki.. Roy Thurber (retired military and writer for bee magazines was a strong supporter). In fact a semi was even built for ETO fumigation which could be taken directly to the bee yards. A picture of the semi ( pg.199)and smaller units ( 198 & 202)can be seen in the last section of his book (which is a collector's item) if you can find a copy. Roy was decades ahead of his time. Washington State beekeepers have got rights to the book I believe and could do a reprint if enough interest I believe. James Bach ( was on BEE-L at one time) would know . ETO is used by hospitals and I do believe would kill virus contamination. No doubt will kill EFB & AFB spores. I believe ETO would be cheaper long term than radiation. A source to do radiation on comb has been found in Florida. The dosage used is being kicked up to the maximum I was told. The cost is not cheap but I was told the company can do a pallet at a time which is what the semi ETO would do. In fact the semi ETO WOULD DO 20 PALLETS AT A TIME. Commercial beekeepers are lined up to use the Florida machine. I will point those wanting the service for radiation or to locate and knock the dust off the old ETO semi in the right direction *off list*. The radiation is running around six dollars a box or approx. $2000 U.S. a pallet. Reluctantly I was told a reduction in fees is being made for the larger number of boxes by the company. Radiation on comb is new to my knowledge. ETO can be done on a small scale with gases purchased locally and being handy with tools to make the chamber. All the directions are in Roy's book. Used ETO machines might be purchased from hospital salvage. >So if a beekeeper was looking for a company to do some radiation treatment of combs and equipment what are the specs one would be asking for? I heard some figures but would rather let those be set by the company doing the radiation. Enough to kill AFB & EFB and virus contamination. Beekeepers are opting for the higher dose I have been told. Jerry B. Research done at Penn State has shown that a queen infected with DWV , ABPV or other virus passes the virus on in her eggs and every bee which emerges is infected. Also when looking at CCD you first need to eliminate the common everyday problems. Not possible in most cases as your tests are showing tracheal and varroa mites. Many cases EFB & AFB. In most cases around three viruses present. In most cases comb contamination from past varroa miticide use. To top things off several weather related problems could cause CCD like symptoms. Also beekeeper neglect . AND lets not forget off spec fructose, pesticides and pollen contamination. The sad problem ( being realized by beekeepers maybe even for the first time this year) is without taking positive steps to correct the problem you are going to see the same thing next fall. Tossing in another package this spring may not be the correct move. I had wished Jeff Pettis had said the above at his ABF presentation but I expect he was afraid the beekeepers in the room would kill the messenger! Jerry B. You are one of the smartest researchers I ever met! Please tell me the above is not correct. I will not get upset. bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:08:51 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: $40/lb Hawaiian honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You and Mr. Fisher then tried to broad-brush all honey as being > the same which is hogwash. Please understand that Bill and I were expressing the opinion that many people (ourselves included) have a hard time IDENTIFYING many varietal honeys accurately at honey tastings, due to less-than connoisseur-grade taste buds and pallets. (Sure, I'd wager that both Bill and I could consistently tell orange blossom from buckwheat, even after drinking the bar out of tequila, but those are two very distinctive honeys.) I think I also made it clear that there was a lot that could be done to enhance the perceived value of any beekeeper's crop (assuming that one packages one's own product, which is the norm for the bulk of beekeepers). This is very very different from "broad brushing all honey as being the same". > the U.S. bee/honey industry appears to be full of stubborn and or > ignorant types... Perhaps so, but I've yet to meet or speak with any of these "types" of which you speak. :) > who persist in the notion that anything expensive is a rip off. Only when we are buying supplies, not when we are selling. :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:28:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Radiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is one state, I think one of the Carolinas, that uses a portable Ethylene Oxide tank. Correct me if I'm wrong. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:03:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: radiation treatment specs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Ontario we are fortunate to have a facility to irradiate material. >From the Ontario Recommendations for Honey bee Disease Control by our Provincial Apiarist --Treatment using 1.2 M rads will completely sterilize the combs and hive parts. For those who want to use the facility in the future contact Steve Bowman in Whitbly Ontario at 905 432-1106 Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:08:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Bob's CCD Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable said to Jerry B . Yes, and Bill Wilson thought disappearing disease may have=20 been from a genetic defect (i.e., queen related - maybe it wasn't a defect=20= but a=20 queen transferred virus? Just a guess.) (that's why we need beekeepers to fill out our survey at=20 _www.beesurvey.com_ (http://www.beesurvey.com) ). With multiple variables,= we need to=20 know what those affected have been doing And EQUALLY important, hear from=20 some who have never experienced CCD -- and I mean relatively large scale, l= ong=20 term beekeepers. If you've only had bees two years and have 1 hive, your=20 information isn't going to help tell us what might work to stop this thing. This is not correct, only tracheal was in recoverying bees, and yes= ,=20 viruses were found - but not at level normally considered to be above=20 background. Only a few of the field cases (looking in hives in all of the=20= state's=20 we've visited) have revealed much, if any deformed wings, etc. =20 This=20 statement is out of context. Viruses were present in samples taken just af= ter=20 first collapse - but not at high levels. EFB only showed up weeks later, o= n =20 collapsed equipment. David Westervelt and I did not see EFB or AFB in Fl o= r=20 CA in recently collapsed colonies. David and Jeff both reported that EFB=20 showed up later in FL -- probably because the remnant bee population could= n't=20 keep up the brood nest with lots of chilled off brood. Initial results did= =20 show a fungus in the guts of many bees - remains to be seen whether this=20 happens in ALL cases for many different states. And the new Nosema was in=20= one=20 hive in FL, but also found in TN - and Jeff has other information about thi= s=20 across the U.S., but it may/may not be correlated with the cases of CCD see= n. I=20 doubt that its the cause, another of the its there, but not the smoking gun= . =20 Well,=20 many beekeepers were using all kinds of chemicals, often illegal, often mor= e=20 than one at a time. PA has found traces of one chemical that they were loo= king=20 for - in one set of samples, but it was a crop applied chemical. To my=20 knowledge, the results from all sites and from the rest of the team aren't=20= in - I=20 know my chemists are still working on samples, haven't verified initial=20 results, so we haven't said this. =20 That said, common sense dictates that using off label chemicals and =20 unspecified dosages and other things we saw ARE NOT GOOD and are likely to e= nd up=20 with contaminants in comb. In fact, I'm surprised that some beekeepers did= n't=20 kill their bees outright when throwing multiple chemicals in a hive, all at= =20 the same time. But, right next to them were beekeepers who DID NOT do this= ,=20 and I've got an organic beekeeper who experienced this on new comb. =20 =20 Our surveys go into a database linked to Google Earth AND to weather data.=20= =20 We've seen some interesting correlations for specific locations like those=20= in=20 Florida. Again, on a national level, we need beekeeper input. Weather per= =20 se is not likely to cause CCD symptoms, but it may trigger something else,=20 just like all of the other stressors mentioned above, and other stresses li= ke=20 trucking bees, poor nutrition, etc. =20 Some of the worst cases were not stunning examples of good beekeeping - but=20= =20 other beekeepers who were doing a good job also had the disorder.=20 =20 Our chem analysis should answer the off spec fructose question, and we and =20 the rest of the team has asked for additional funding to address a wide =20 spectrum look at pesticides and pollen contamination. NHB made the first =20 contribution, and it went to PA for their virus work and to send Dennis and=20= Dave to CA. =20 I've a freezer full of samples. And, my company and the Army has already=20 spent more than $20k just getting out there to look at CCD and collect samp= les=20 - we (my team) has been in PA, GA, FL, and three weeks in CA. =20 If anyone wants to donate to a war chest to pay for some of these tests -- =20 PAms has agreed to serve as the banker for the CCD and to not charge for an= y=20 account service) Chris Heintz says Please send contributions to: =20 Project Apis m.=20 1750 Dayton Rd.=20 Chico, CA 95928=20 Have the contributor put =E2=80=9CCCD=E2=80=9D in the memo line.=20 . I agree, but we don't know the rea= l=20 source of the problem, so we can't suggest corrective action, other than be= =20 better beekeeper - which MAY NOT solve the problem.=20 My one specific recommendation, don't combine affected colonies or add =20 packages to them - this thing looks likes its communicable. . =20 That's been tried, worked in some case for the short term, but did not work= in=20 others -- whole yards were lost when 'healthy' bees were added to affected=20 colonies. Similarly, bringing affected bees into yards of apparently healt= hy bees=20 often resulted in all of the colonies being affected, failing. As per what someone did/did not say -- the CCD is still trying to get a fix= =20 on the nature of the problem. Lots of guesses, and I have my own, but I've= =20 also changed opinion since I've seen so many cases in so many areas. As pe= r=20 my own smarts - haven't solved this yet. Funny, the CSI teams on TV do thi= s=20 in an hour. =20 Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: ETO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >There is one state, I think one of the Carolinas, that uses a portable >Ethylene Oxide tank. Correct me if I'm wrong. North Carolina has the tank/fumigation chamber. I don't believe it's especially portable. The NC bee inspectors sometimes help transport equipment to the chamber, though. The whole process is heavily subsidized by the state. I thought I heard Maryland has a similar set-up. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:31:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron & Eefje Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] radiation treatment specs In-Reply-To: <000801c74e9c$f360f1b0$b65ed4c7@homepc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That calls the question though: Of the two treatment methods named on that site, which materials are compatible and which are not? Ron van Mierlo Keith B. Forsyth skrev: > You may wish to view the Canadian Honey Council document: > http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5218 > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:31:29 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Putting Words in Others' Mouths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I hope you and I can agree to disagree( again) ! We never agreed on that. This issue is too important to let you get away with making an attribution you cannot or will not prove. > Ps. In poker when you have a wining hand you go "all in" > "All in" You're bluffing. I see you and call you. Let's see your hand -- ifyou have one. You are putting your , and the reputation of others, on the line with this one, and we need to see the proof. 1.) We need to hear the tape, and 2.) we need to know exactly where these supposedly capensis-like bees are being observed. Failing that necessary proof, we all can see that you are actually folding and throwing in your cards, face-down, not going, "All in" For what it is worth, I'd love to be proven wrong, 'cause that's the fastest way to learn. But empty words don't prove anything. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:44:25 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Getting it Right MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are many who don't want their names dropped, to get dragged in controversy, or be even remotely associated with misinformation. Nonetheless, many are watching, and some venture an observation or two in the background. Here is a comment I received recently. Name withheld. I left off one comment of a personal nature at the end. --- begin quote --- Subject: thelytoky Not to be a nit picker but; (1) Parthenogenic reproduction and reproduction by thelytoky are not the same. Parthenogenic reproduction is asexual, i.e. "cloning", barring the very rare event of an autosomal mutation. Thelytoky on the other hand is sexual, albeit the same individual provides the "sperm" and the "egg" which is a product of reduction division, hence reassortment occurs. (2) Thelytoky has been around a long time in the US. My photocopy of an article lacks a readable citation but I believe it is Journal of Economic Entomology, vol 36 pges 465-467 June 1943 in which Otto Mackensen has an article entitled "The Occurrence of Parthenogentic Females in Some Strains of Honeybees". Well before Kerr in Brazil you might want to note. (3) Taber has a column in Gleanings (8/89) in which he mentions Arizona thelytoky. I talked to him about this at a later date but he never mentioned the beekeepers name (Lusby?) It had come about before he retired from Tucson (4) Ruttner worked out the mechanism of thelytoky in Apis mellifera capensis and reported his results in Apidologie 1983 vol 14 (1) pges 41-57 among other places. --- end quote --- FWIW, I know that the Tucson lab was working on thelytoky a few years back when I visited, but do not know if it was ever completed, or whether the pheremone work eclipsed it. And, also, many of us think that thelyoky is a useful property in bees, and in no way threatening. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:39:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >From the associated press. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070211/ap-on-sc/dying-bees Interesting to me how little real information is released to the public. Here on BEE-L you will get your best information. Statements like below from the AP article: " from the outside of the hive the hive looks normal" Please! Give me a break! . leaving in a few minutes with a load of "good Midwest bees" ( loaded yesterday) bound for California. We are off loading in Kansas to a semi bound for California. Heavy snow is predicted but like the post office saying the: "mail will go through" we say " the bees for California will get loaded" regardless of weather! See "loading bees in a Missouri Snowstorm" ( April 2004 ABJ) for a look at what we might be looking at later today. " Loading bees in a Kansas Snowstorm"( ABJ 2007?) bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:15:44 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: ETO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >There is one state, I think one of the Carolinas, that uses a portable > >Ethylene Oxide tank. Correct me if I'm wrong. ETO has been discussed on BEE-L before, with a mention of many good reasons not to use it, and why Alberta junked ours, many years back. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:17:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Foul Broods - was the African Bee in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/02/2007 23:47:03 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: "I have seen plenty of EF through the years mainly because I only treated when necessary. Before Parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) E.F. was easy to see for most beekeepers because E.F. only effects the very young larva and AFB the late stage larva pupa. However now PMS effects the larva so looks like E.F.. ......." We don't have anything labelled PMS in the UK although we have had varroa since 1992. If it is so similar to EFB could it possibly be EFB? As you know, when infected larvae are sufficiently well fed, ie there are plenty of nurse bees, they survive to pupate and emerge and then soon start feeding their younger siblings, which is how they too become infected. Could it be that severe varroa infestation reduces the quality and quantity of nurse bees thus allowing otherwise hidden EFB to become apparent? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:47:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Getting it Right Comments: To: allen dick In-Reply-To: <031a01c74ec5$11e6ca10$6401a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > > (1) Parthenogenic reproduction and reproduction by thelytoky are not > the same. Parthenogenic reproduction is asexual, i.e. "cloning", > barring the very rare event of an autosomal mutation. Thelytoky on > the other hand is sexual, albeit the same individual provides the > "sperm" and the "egg" which is a product of reduction division, hence > reassortment occurs. > > (2) Thelytoky has been around a long time in the US. My photocopy of > an article lacks a readable citation but I believe it is Journal of > Economic Entomology, vol 36 pges 465-467 June 1943 in which Otto > Mackensen has an article entitled "The Occurrence of Parthenogentic > Females in Some Strains of Honeybees". Well before Kerr in Brazil you > might want to note. > > (3) Taber has a column in Gleanings (8/89) in which he mentions > Arizona thelytoky. I talked to him about this at a later date but he > never mentioned the beekeepers name (Lusby?) It had come about before > he retired from Tucson > > (4) Ruttner worked out the mechanism of thelytoky in Apis mellifera > capensis and reported his results in Apidologie 1983 vol 14 (1) pges > 41-57 among other places. > (snip) > > And, also, many of us think that thelyoky is a useful property in > bees, and in no way threatening. For paragraph 2- is that in the US? if so, I am sincerely confused since it looks like both are in US bees since paragraph 3 looks like it is. Or were they just looking and nothing has been found? Thelytoky is the Cape Bee trait which we do not want in the US so why would it be a good thing? I know from reading about the problem between the Cape Bee and AHB in South Africa, that there is a strong effort to keep the Cape Bee in its place because it is a bad trait. So South African Beekeepers do not think it a good thing. So what is in the Arizona bees, thelytoky or parthenogenic reproduction or neither? I need a little education on this since I thought I knew what thelytoky was all about, but 1-4 have confused me a bit. Help please. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:22:51 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Getting it Right MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > allen dick wrote: > (1) Parthenogenic reproduction and reproduction by thelytoky are not the > same. etc. Actually, I did not write that part. I relayed it. >> And, also, many of us think that thelyoky is a useful property in bees, >> and in no way threatening. I wrote that part. > For paragraph 2- is that in the US? if so, I am sincerely confused since > it looks like both are in US bees... AFAIK, the first is not observed in the US, the second is observed to some extent in all honey bees. > Thelytoky is the Cape Bee trait which we do not want in the US so why > would it be a good thing? We've been over all this in great detail, and it should still be in the archives. (The archive really should be mentioned in the BEE-L tagline, but is not). > So what is in the Arizona bees, thelytoky or parthenogenic reproduction > or neither? Maybe someone would care to take this on? Again? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:33:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Foul Broods - was the African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, Try and treat PMS effected colony with Oxy-Tet. and wait for an improvement in the health of the brood of that colony. You will have to wait a long time! There will be no improvement. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:48:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: CBS Evening News, Katie Couric, tomorrow night, Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) Comments: cc: ccdworkinggroup@lists.cas.psu.edu, dplummer@beealert.blackfoot.net, ltarver@beealert.blackfoot.net, colin.henderson@mso.umt.edu, steven.rice@beealert.blackfoot.net, sherrie.wright@mso.umt.edu, Rita.Munzenrider@mso.umt.edu, Dan.Dwyer@mso.umt.edu, Judy.Fredenberg@mso.umt.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All Last week, a network film crew followed us (the CCD group) around California, also filmed unloading of bees in the almonds, large holding yards, and a beekeeper meeting. They were hoping to get footage of the almonds in blossom before going to air, but the sudden press on AOL and other news services has caused them to hurry up. Tentatively, the piece should run tomorrow night. CBS shot a lot of video. They expect to get about 2 minutes of it on prime time. If something bumps this piece, I hope to get a notice of the rescheduled time to air. Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk Bee Alert Technology, Inc. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:15:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Bob's CCD Comments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, Many thanks for your mail ([BEE-L] Bob's CCD Comments). It supplies info. for those interested in the problem but not having direct contacts with the ongoing investigation. It hopefully will limit second hand communication that often will degenerate into a rumour mill level of comment. IMHO, more direct communication to the wider beekeeping community is required from those who are working on apicultural issues. My concern is that having colonies that are no more than several hundred of metres from the USA border (Canadian-USA), will this problem show up in Canada! Bees fly into Canada from the US, then collect canola nectar and conversely bees from here fly south. Regards Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:28:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: nutrition and minerals in honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit you wrote: >One interesting fact is that bees will not take nectar from a plant that >has too high a mineral content in its nectar. > This is not altogether true as it would depend on the type of bee and selective breeding. For instance, in avocado honey is rich in different minerals, especially potassium. It is suspected that potassium, which is reported to repel honey bees from onion nectar, may be a repellent component in avocado nectar as well. When New World Carnilian bees were tested against Italian bees for avocado pollination. Based on analysis of avocado sugar perseitol in their honey, it was found that NWC‘s collected 1.4 to 18.1 times more avocado nectar than the Italian bees, and suggested a possible genetic basis responsible for a foraging preference for forage containing high mineral content. A genetic basis for the propensity to visit avocado flowers was further supported by the consistently high honey perseitol content of selected colonies over two years. A genetic component for preference to target crops attests the possibility of breeding honey bee strains that will be effective pollinators where competition with alternative flora may be a problem. Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:53:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Tucson "thelytoky" (was: the African Bee in Africa) In-Reply-To: <23266699.1171129192666.JavaMail.root@m11> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (breaking my self-imposed standard of lighting only one brushfire/year); With proper respect to my former work station, many of us onboard at the time believe the "thelytoky" results from Tucson to be flawed. - John Edwards Malcolm T. Sanford wrote: > ... It is of more than passing interest that Africanized honey bees > in Arizona have in fact been determined to have a higher degree of > thelytoky than their European sisters. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:36:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: stealth small cell--I measured some Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All Re Dennis Murrell's post that Mann Lake is selling an unpromoted small cell size in their standard plastic deep frames. I went to Mann Lake Woodland today. I brought along a high quality mm ruler. I measured ten cells center of wall to center of wall, and measured cells in all three directions, at several places on the comb. Virtually all measurements came out at 50mm. Therefore, the cell size appears to be 5.0mm. That said, Dee, you claim that 5.0 is a world of difference from 4.9mm, and that we will have incredible brood disease problems with 5.0mm. To be candid, this strains my credulity. The difference between a 4.9 and 5.0mm cell is 0.1mm, or 100 microns. That is about the thickness of a human hair. It is difficult for me to understand how we can keep bees with minimal brood disease on 5.5mm, and virtually no brood disease on 4.9mm, yet suffer major brood disease on 5.0mm. I understand that your claim is based upon empirical tests in the field. Do you have a theory to explain why 5.0 is less conducive to larval health than a smaller or larger size? Thanks, Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:49:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Smith Subject: CA Almond MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A link with some interesting stories.FYI http://www.almondgrower.com/ Jim Smith State of Jefferson USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:53:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bob's CCD Comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon asks about transfer of the CCD problem across the U.S. - Canada border. We have heard that a few beekeepers in western Canada have already reported a similar disorder. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:06:55 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Tucson "thelytoky" (was: the African Bee in Africa) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > many of us onboard at the time believe the "thelytoky" results from Tucson > to be flawed. Thanks for the teaser, but now, maybe give us an idea of how they were flawed? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:51:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: stealth small cell--I measured some In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy: I went to Mann Lake Woodland today. I brought along a high quality mm ruler.I measured ten cells center of wall to center of wall, and measured cells in all three directions, at several places on the comb. Virtually all measurements came out at 50mm. Therefore, the cell size appears to be 5.0mm. Reply: First of all I am in the process of measuring the combs sent to be by Mann Lake. Second Randy, you here are measuring plastic foundation, and not real beeswax combs,or wax foundation taking into consideration how it is embossed, and there is a big difference with all,in doing actual real measurements, so don't be so quick here. As for splitting hairs with measurement, to you it may not be much, but to a bee it is and could be a wide as the wrist you have relative to a bee for change. Something to think about for now. Will get back in a day or two as I go thoroughly over the foundation sent. Have already talked to Jack Thomas for what I will be looking at. Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 03:56:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Getting it Right MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/02/2007 22:29:00 GMT Standard Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: <> I believe it was first observed in the 1890's, in 'Punic bees' imported to the UK from Tunisia by John Hewitt. I don't have references for this (does anyone?) but if memory serves me right, that first queen ended up in the British Museum of Natural history. I'm not sure what subspecies these would have been, but obviously not Capensis. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:11:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From the producer, as of 10 MST, this morning. We're still in the broadcast for tonight, though they trimmed our story because of all the other news...shooting in Salt Lake City, North Korea arms deal, bad weather in midwest. So I'm a little disappointed but glad to get something on the air. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:15:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Beekeeping Workshop, Missoula, Feb 24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All We will be hosting a day long beekeeping course, including a discussion of the CCD, on Saturday, Feb 24 in Missoula, MT. Location: Bee Alert Tech, 1620 Rodgers St, Suite 1, Missoula, MT Please RSVP - call 406-541-3160 _www.beealert.info_ (http://www.beealert.info) Go to Home, Event. Workshop is from 9 to 4. Western Bee, Patty Denke from MT State Apiculture, myself, Scott Debnam will be conducting a workshop for beginning beekeepers, general information, including a discussion of the latest on the CCD. There is a $15 charge. Thanks Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:16:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: stealth small cell--I measured some Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >you here are measuring plastic foundation, and not real beeswax combs,or >wax foundation taking into consideration how it is >embossed, and there is a big difference with all, in doing >actual real measurements, so don't be so quick here. Every type of foundation, whether wax, plastic, or aluminum, can be measured in order to determine the number of cells per inch or decimeter, and hence the size of the cell. The thickness of the cell wall should not enter in, if you measure from center to center. In any case, it is simple matter to measure larger numbers of cells, thereby minimizing the potential for error. I don't really think that a slight difference in size matters much anyway, since natural comb varies all over the place. Honey bees are far less particular about these matters than their owners. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:55:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Tucson "thelytoky" In-Reply-To: <13474213.1171340252404.JavaMail.root@m11> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (sorry if this is a duplicate - my email program and I are having differences....) allen dick wrote: >> many of us onboard at the time believe the "thelytoky" results from >> Tucson to be flawed. > > > Thanks for the teaser, but now, maybe give us an idea of how they were > flawed? > allen As I remember, the high school students actually doing the field and lab work were told that all bee eggs hatch in three days, so some combs were not completely egg-free when hived to test for laying workers. Our suggestions to their supervisors on this subject were not welcomed. Oh, well, such is the research game. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:52:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: stealth small cell--I measured some In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter and all: Here is the current thread in discussion by the way for the Mann Lake Product now three pages long and growing: http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=007175;p=1 As for measuring plastic different then wax, it does matter depending how the cell walls are built and how high. But for first regression down, this is looking interesting so far......... Also with it so close size wise, and so many having already bought it and used it in large numbers, certainly a simple change out into the broodnest for better varroa control after extracting.......... But you read thru the comments and those measuring so far and just see what is being said it is........and how hard to draw out FWIW. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:57:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Tucson "thelytoky" In-Reply-To: <45D225A7.30000@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John Edwards: Okay, since I remember no high school students, John was this a later experiment then what Ed and I were involved with in the 1980s, when I was video taping daily happenings, etc. with all the small nucs we brought in confined in the greenhouse? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:16:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa In-Reply-To: <45CE62AA.6080904@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > The only time I have seen EFB was when I was with Tony Jadczak when he > inspected commercial migratory beekeepers on the blueberry barrens. I'll always associate EFB with the smell of rotten fish. Tony Jadczak found some in a couple of my hives last spring and put a dab of it on my veil. I smelled it all day. He also mentioned the tendency of EFB to occur in the blueberry belt but he didn't offer any explanation for it. George- ------------------------------ George Fergusson Whitefield Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:04:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jerry & All, Myself and another beekeeper watched the CBS program tonight. We both agree the frame held up by the woman beekeeper Louise showed signs of parasitic mite syndrum (PMS). Over the years I have looked at thousands & thousands of these type frames. The bees in the hive shown died from PMS (virus and other issues) vectored by a high varroa load. No mystery there. David Vanderdusen and I had a long talk a month ago and he has said in todays environment varroa control unchecked will kill a hive in FOUR MONTHS OR LESS and varroa control needs done every four months in the active season. Check her varroa control Jerry. bees in the shown hive crashed from varroa and drifted to other hives (perhaps for the same fate). Also we started seeing PMS signs in deadouts which were not over the suggested threshold about three years ago. Virus problems are so common now that threshold is a poor way to judge hive health. bottom line: To control virus you have got to control varroa! I spoke at length with Lance S. ( beekeeper interveiwed) last month about the semi load he lost in California ( Jerry B. will know what I am talking about) and he has been having varroa issues in his bees. These are tough times in commercial beekeeping. Every bee supply catalog has pages of treatments for varroa which either . Do not work any longer in most areas .Checkmite or Apistan or .Are very temperature and humidity dependent and need verification after the treatment period that the varroa control worked. I don't want to dispute the experts but I know PMS signs when I see it as do most of us which make a living from bees. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:42:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: the African Bee in Africa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/02/2007 23:14:54 GMT Standard Time, gsferg@SWEETTIMEAPIARY.COM writes: He also mentioned the tendency of EFB to occur in the blueberry belt but he didn't offer any explanation for it. Poor pollen - underfed larvae- unable to compete with bacteria that were there anyway- larvae die and bacteria don't get to be passed around to reinfect. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:13:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: CBS news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob says: Myself and another beekeeper watched the CBS program ...we,,, agree the frame held up by the woman beekeeper Louise showed signs of parasitic mite syndrome (PMS). Bob: You make the mistake of thinking that everything shown by CBS had been seen by the CCD team. The bit with the tearful beekeeper was NOT of any equipment that my team saw -- I don't know who she was, where she was at in terms of part of the country, when that bit of video was shot, or who examined her colonies - if anyone. I am sorry for her loss. We have occasionally seen PMS, but NOT in the majority of the CCD hives that we've examined from many different states. My team has visited FL, PA, GA, CA (three weeks in that state) and have examined hives in CA from WA, Nebraska, MT, Idaho, PA, MN, and other states. Her hives are not typical of what we've been seeing. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:40:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:04:55 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: >I don't want to dispute the experts but I know PMS signs when I see it as do >most of us which make a living from bees. > Bob I would not dispute that you and your acquaintances/friends know high mite load symptoms and understand foul brood etc. However I'm always amazed at how many commercial or larger sideline beekeeps I meet who don't understand: - the mite life cycle - differences or limitations of mite treatments - the connection between mites and viruses - that antibiotics only cover up foulbrood - how drift and robbing transfers mites and FB - I could list more >From what I have observed most BEE-L participants have a better understanding then maybe the average beekeeper so we may not realize how in the dark some of the rest of the beekeeping world is in a day and age were beekeeping has gotten more technical and complex. To further validate my thought, why would we have resistant mites & AFB and susceptible stock if the bulk of beekeepers had a grasp of mites and FB? I'm starting to come to the same conclusion that maybe Bob has and that is the only disorder in this "disease" is the disorder in the minds and operations of some beekeepers......... I guess maybe we can assume that is the answer if there is never a clear cut diagnosis or explanation for CCD. I actually hope that is the case as that would mean the problem is solve-able and not a new crisis. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:06:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/13/2007 8:33:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: bottom line: To control virus you have got to control varroa! As beekeepers we all know what to do about varroa. So when the virus hits, then what? What do you do about the virus and keeping it from spreading or is it too late Walter Ontario -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:30:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Tucson "thelytoky" In-Reply-To: <26895424.1171409184062.JavaMail.root@m11> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, more like the late 1990s. Dee Lusby wrote: >John Edwards: >Okay, since I remember no high school students, John was >this a later experiment then what Ed and I were involved >with in the 1980s, > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 06:25:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, It always touches my heart when even a single person hears my message. makes the hassle worthwhile. Doesn't matter if you agree or not but that you at least heard another possible scenario. I have written an article which explains some of the current problems of CCD can be traced to feedlot beekeeping and HFCS. I might also add the cost of HFCS is going to rise (heard it first here) as the price of corn has tripled in the Midwest. The only thing holding down the price of HFCS (in my opinion and based on my research ) is the giants of the industry realize the end users will switch to other ingredients and once formulas are changed then its hard to get the business back. They are not industry giants because they are stupid. Here in the Midwest farmers are planting corn on corn which is farmer terms for corn year after year. You will see more corn this year than any time in history. Also genetically modified. Four companies control the business. Have been *accused* of price fixing before. The other small percent simply follow what the big guys do. IF HFCS doubles ( triples?)in price due to high price of corn then honey will be again attractive to use in many products increasing demand ( yes!) but cost of feeding bees might double for large producers ( bad!). Think ahead larger beekeepers and be ready to put your plan B in place! No plan B? Sad? I believe HFCS is a poor bee feed and shortens longevity in honey bees. Two studies done by the bee labs support the claim. ( USDA-ARS Tucson & USDA-ARS Weslaco) consider: CCD is more prevalent in operations pumping high amounts of HFCS to bees. Those using sucrose are healthy form my research. Here is a web site about HFCS. I have verified some of the information as fact but not all. Decide for yourself. Worth a visit. http://www.westonaprice.org/motherlinda/cornsyrup.html Sincerely, Bob Harrison "wonders why if the average person believes that 6-7 cans of regular cola ( with HFCS) a day is bad for health but he/she would give their bees an even higher dose" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:49:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings! You can hear Maryann Frazier talk about honey bees & CCD: http://podcasts.psu.edu/node/265 -- pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:29:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/02/2007 13:40:11 GMT Standard Time, littlewolfbees@AOL.COM writes: <> An individual bee with the virus has had it; all you can do is control the vector, which we know to be varroa in most cases, and hope the colony lasts long enough to raise a new generation of healthy bees. I had three colonies with DWV last October, after a sudden influx od mites from collapsing hives in the area. After a hasty treatment (I had been intending to use oxalic over the New Year), I appear to have saved two. The third, which had the most serious outbreak - a good dozen bees with crumpled wings seen in a rapid inspection, as opposed to two or three in the others - died out in December. I can only assume it was more susceptible, and if so, good riddance. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 06:42:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote, >HFCS. I have verified some of the information as > fact but not all. Decide for yourself. Worth a visit. Well Bob, its funny to see your coming around on what's good for bees, in the archives you spoke differently. UC Davis, has said for YEARS that sucrose was the best for bees. Corn prices going up? Gosh, is that why Mann Lake is offering syrup on the futures market, I thought they just wanted our money. Feed Lot INC. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:47:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 In-Reply-To: <000501c75033$3d7ffa60$1fbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Think ahead larger beekeepers and be ready to put your plan B in place! No >plan B? Sad? Ok, the first question. What is your plan B, Bob? >"wonders why if the average person believes that 6-7 cans of regular cola >( with HFCS) a day is bad for health... And, next question. Would this consumer of cola be any healthier if the soda pop was made with honey? Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:56:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: CCD update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Jerry! I wanted to know if you could please answer a few questions I had about CCD. In private discussion's there as been talk of a possible OA connection common amoung opperations having CCD, maybe you could expand on. And I also have a few observations, weather associated or not, I do not know. Maybe you could help clear up theses questions. In the 'CCD preliminary report' -----o In section 2. Chemical use: "b. Miticide use: all but one beekeeper had applied a miticide treatment over the course of 2006. The products used, method of application, varied." -----o What treatments were applied? And was Oxalic acid, or other acid type treatments used in these colonies?,,, particularly during the spring or during mid summer lul? If the question of OA was asked of these beekeepers having losses, I would suspect that pesticide regulations could potentially hinder cooperation OR honesty somewhat from those being interviewed. Was this subject of OA and other 'non approved and misuse of treatments' addressed in such a way that satisfies the researchers that creditable, honest and accurate accounts of 'all treatments used, and method of application' was obtained from those interviewed? I was also wondering if there was observation of virus type symptoms apparent in these colonies (even at low level), early in the season? And also, did any beekeepers notice a higher than normal occurrence of ‘acute colony initiation failure’ in swarms and package bees between the period of colony initiation and 3 weeks into the growth stage? Thanks! Best Wishes, Joe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:34:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, To answer Keith also I have fed plenty of HFCS over the years (as well as sucrose in the form of cane or beet sugar) BUT I only feed when absolutely necessary. Moving bees on to heavy fall flows trumps feeding bees in fall but then in California those are not available. Saves money and the bees do better in my opinion. All beekeeping is local and in California beekeepers have got to do what they need to do to survive. Note Missouri is not a state listed as CCD disaster. However if disaster funds are tossed around 100's of beekeepers with hands out could appear! > What is your plan B, Bob? 1. Continue to move bees on to better bee pasture after the summer flows. 2. feed less HFCS ( maybe a mix like Keith does to get rid of the rest in the big storage tank) 3. Try to bring in some liquid sucrose ( like is available in California) but has not been available in our area in the past. 4. Go the cane/beet sugar route like in the past. My friend and I do get those big sugar bags (2000 lbs.) from a source from time to time. HFCS has been easy for beekeepers. Perhaps to easy. I would be happy with a HFCS/sucrose mix this spring when bees are flying but will be feeding sucrose (if needed ) this fall. Horace Bell had a saying: "I could buy a new King Ranch or Harley Davidson model Ford pickup for what it takes to feed my bees a single time. " Scale the saying down to the little guy like me and still words of wisdom. There are two reasons to feed bees. 1.starving or stores for winter 2. to raise bees ( pollination, splits, honey flow buildup or package bees) I am in the second year of a very interesting experiment about not feeding bees at ALL! Last year ended in drought so need an average year to confirm results. The bees in the experiment had to be fed which I suspect will happen from time to time. > next question. Would this consumer of cola be any healthier if the soda pop was made with honey? Many of us believe a lot healthier because none of us including the researchers from Tucson or Weslaco knows* exactly* why HFCS shortens life span in rats & bees. There are two hypothesis so you can take your pick. How many people would be chugging cans of soda pop ( with up to the equivalent of 12 teaspoons of sugar each which is not helping the obese problem in the U.S.) *if* research suggested the heavy use of products with HFCS would shorten life span.????? I doubt research on the subject could ever be proved beyond a doubt especially with the money behind the soda pop makers and Archer Daniel's Midland. For now all I am saying is drink pop in moderation & consider the fact HFCS if feed feedlot style might be problematic. If a bright side CCD is helping our beekeeping industry by making us take a long look at the way we keep,medicate and feed our bees! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:02:19 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: The cost of HFCS is going to rise (heard it first here) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I might also add the cost of HFCS is going to rise (heard it first here) I suppose that this may come as news to some, but, actually, the likelihood of higher HFCS prices became apparent to most of us who keep up with such things, way back in the fall when corn reached and exceeded the 2004 highs. Moreover, corn prices, the effect of the profusion of new ethanol projects and the resulting impact on HFCS costs were also featured in Kim's detailed and insightful keynote address at the AHPA meeting in Phoenix. A quick glance at the chart http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/M shows, however, that corn prices have spiked before and then fallen back. Will happen again? Many think not, but the current run-up may well be exaggerated by hedge fund speculation. These funds run things up, then back down. The fundamentals seem to indicate that the rise will last, but, then, life is full of surprises. If corn prices stay up, then we will see a long term rise in HFCS prices, but, if the price spike is short-term, then the HFCS producers can protect their customers somewhat, having purchased their corn supplies in advance. They have a pretty good handle on supply and demand, and also know what they can charge without damaging their market, so they will see what they can get away with, but there is--contrary what some say--competition that tends to limit increases. The long and the short of this is that, by the time we actually need a load, the price may have been up--and back down. Who knows? > I believe HFCS is a poor bee feed and shortens longevity in honey bees. > Two studies done by the bee labs support the claim. ( USDA-ARS Tucson & > USDA-ARS Weslaco) Calling HFCS "poor bee feed" may be a bit too sweeping for some of us. There are many kinds of HFCS, and some are far better than others for bees. The best HFCS is pretty well as good as sucrose for most purposes. Wintering is the most demanding application, and HFCS has proven to be a good winter feed in Western Canada over many years. Canadian research has confirmed, however, that there is a slight difference between the best HFCS and sucrose syrup in terms of caged bee longevity. I know many large beekeepers up here in the Great White North who feed HFCS for wintering and have no problems, BUT they are careful, and know what they are buying. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 06:55:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As beekeepers we all know what to do about varroa. > So when the virus hits, then what? > What do you do about the virus and keeping it from spreading or is it too > late Hi Walter You may wish to refer to my "Strategy" article in the recent ABJ. I discuss this paper: Sumpter, D. J. T. & Martin, S. J. (2004) The dynamics of virus epidemics in Varroa-infested honey bee colonies. Journal of Animal Ecology 73:51-63 www.lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/pdf/Martin%2064.pdf You can draw your own conclusions. Randy Oliver - -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:02:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 In-Reply-To: <000501c75033$3d7ffa60$1fbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > Here is a web site about HFCS. I have verified some of the information as >fact but not all. Decide for yourself. Worth a visit. >http://www.westonaprice.org/motherlinda/cornsyrup.html Where does it say in this article that HFCS is bad feed for honeybees? Are rats the same as bees? consider: CCD is more prevalent in operations pumping high amounts of HFCS to bees. Those using sucrose are healthy form my research. This isn't what Jerry B. has been saying. Are your research methods different/better than his team's? I found the CCD preliminary report very informative, and good science. Please publish yours, Bob. None of us like being kept in the dark. Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:57:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Michael & All, Where does it say in this article that HFCS is bad feed for honeybees? The article is NOT about bees! Does say volumes about HFCS. I did not say HFCS was bad for bees. I did in earlier post point to the fact ALL HFCS contains two sugars which by themselves are shown to be TOXIC to honey bees .I also pointed to problems lately with off spec and high HMF in HFCS.( well documented) I also pointed out the the toxic sugars found in ALL HFCS are not found in sucrose (beet & cane sugar). I point to the fact that bees feed sucrose have got greater longevity than bees feed HFCS. (Roy Barker 1974 Tucson Bee Lab & Pamela Gregory 2008 Weslaco Bee Lab ) I might also point out to my friend Allen Dick that Dr. Gregory's tests were also done on outside flying bees ( 2006) to show the results were the same.( Back in 1974 many beekeepers debunked the Barker USDA-ARS research saying the results would be different if the bees had been flying) Roy Barker only used caged bees. The research can be read about in my article in the April 2007 American Bee Journal and published in its entirety in apidologie before long. >This isn't what Jerry B. has been saying. Are your research methods different/better than his team's? I haven't read the CCD report. I can say when at the American Beekeeping Federation meeting and we all compared notes one of the things we came to realize was that the beekeepers using only sucrose had good bees without CCD problems. Example: Pat Hietkam ( panel member )6000 healthy hives fed only sucrose. >Please publish yours, Bob. None of us like being kept in the dark. Glad you asked! I have been told I have a way of being able to put complicated information in a way the average beekeeper can understand. Which is what I did in the article for ABJ ( April 2007)concerning HFCS/sucrose. The information in the article is correct. No misquotes! The article has been approved by at least these three people: 1. Head of Weslaco USDA-ARS research Unit 2. head of bee lab 3. Pamela Gregory (lab researcher.) I did leave out about the bee blood work done on the bees used in the testing. Was really over my head and hard to explain. However the results of blood work on the bees from the test is included in the published (or soon to be) paper for apidologie. Also the charts. I wish Dr. Gregory's research could have been published in a bee magazine but not what top of the line researchers seem to do. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:57:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20070214095500.032a8af8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Here is a web site about HFCS. I have verified some of the information as >fact but not all. Decide for yourself. Worth a visit. >http://www.westonaprice.org/motherlinda/cornsyrup.html At some point the writer says: Sucrose is made of Glucose and fructose. Do any of you have trouble with this statement? Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:15:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Bee-L I have been wondering ever since this "Fall Dwindle" thing first came up: Just how is it different from what we have been seeing all along? I worked at the Dyce lab for quite a few years and we often left hives untreated for one reason or another. For example, we bought a dozen strong hives from one guy and used them to obtain a steady supply of varroa mites for studies. We did not treat them for mites in September and they proceeded to die, one right after the other. Very often the bees would just vanish. Another time a whole yard died off in the middle of the summer. So my question is: how is this CCD different from that? Maybe what we are seeing is a combination of: 1) chemicals no longer working; 2) beekeepers waiting too late to treat; and/or 3) earlier build up of mite populations. Personally, I don't think syrup is at fault because a lot of this crashing is taking place after the summer honey flow, *before* any fall feeding has commenced. Peter Borst -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD on CBS - tonight, 2/13 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dakota Gunness makers of uncapping equipment in NoDak advertise #1 liquid sucrose sugar in tanker loads for those in the upper Midwest and CA. 1.888.553.8393 I have dealt with these folks and have nothing but good things to say about them, honest and very helpful. Also how can one access the prelim report on CCD which has been discussed? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:02:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I noticed many northern states listed in a map of CCD. Seems misleading as any upper midwest hives are in -20F right now so any bees from MN for example are not from MN but TX or where ever south. So news reports of states affected does not seem worthwhile information but maybe disinformation. I too question the accuracy of beekeeps being honest about chem use, plus you figure how many beekeeps can diagnose EFB or mite related virus failures accurately. How many so called losses are easily ID'd but the researchers cannot visit everyone surveyed. Seems an impossible task to sort any sense from this. To claim even a nationwide problem seems to be stretch considering the simplicity of the survery data and complexity of variables. Another peice of anedocetal data is many queen and package producers have ample bookings the last I checked. Far cry from fall of was it 2005 when we had a massive varroa crash nationwide and most packages and queens were booked by Jan 1st. This implies to me that the losess are insignificant so far. I am impressed at the response by the USDA and research community though as compared to other crys of WOLF in the past. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:52:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: CCD update Comments: To: Brian Fredericksen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: >I noticed many northern states listed in a map of CCD. Where'd you see this map? pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:10:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Tucson "thelytoky" In-Reply-To: <45D2AC89.6010007@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John, Thank you for replying, for then the late 1980s info would still stand, and go hand in hand with Mackenson,Ruttner, and Tunisa/Punic bees, and other races looked at (mellifera & Italian). http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/bsmay1991.htm This is a trait found in all races FWIW if looked for, and again I have always considered it a necessary good trait. Also to go back to a natural system of beekeeping without treatments, you must accept what it naturally there, and it's really not that hard to work with. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:28:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: stealth small cell--I measured some In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy Oliver and all: Wanted to let you know I've spent over two days going over the frames Mann Lake sent me and comparing physically side by side with the S. Korean Plastic 4.9mm that Dadant sold under contract, and the Dadant beeswax 4.9mm currently sold, and also what I physically hand make. Randy is right in that the plastic appears to be 5.0mm sizing, measuring from all three basic positions, and for 10 linear cells, and 49.mm measured length, or whole rows measured. To bees there is a big difference between 5.0mm and 4.9mm sizing and this is DEFINITELY 5.0mm size for the Mann Lake product. I cannot see it 4.9mm at all. The cell walls on the Mann Lake product are more pronounced then the S. Korean plastic foundation and also would therefore tend to keep the combs drawn more to the 5.0mm sizing also, which would then make for difference in royal jelly richness for first teather of JGH for triggering varroa reproduction. Here I would like to say, Ed and I after 8 years were forced to retool, due to our bees living day to day with the mites, but having more and more problems with increased foul broods, and not making productive crop for honey for resale. With then going down .1mm smaller the growing foul brood problem stopped(here I am talking EFB/AFB with parafoul biggest problem),and has never returned, along with chalk etc in our hives. For a first regression down tool I see it as a fine product and will let Jack Thomas know with Mann Lake, But for control of broodnest problems and already knowing we could only cure it for the colonies we keep by going smaller the extra 1.mm, I would recommend upon drawning out and usage that then 4.9mm size be fed into the heart of the broodnest for the center 4-6 frames in broodnest boxes whether 1 deep or 3 deeps for those practicing unlimited broodnest management.The 5.0mm sizing could then be used in the side frames and honey supers, and as beekeeprs are already using in honey supers for over a year, should be any problem, as it is already being done. But for seed comb for converting broodnest this like honey super cell, looks like a go FWIW. Congratulation Randy for measuring right on it would seem IMPOV. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:48:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: HFCS and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob H. and I can agree on one issue: If a bright side CCD is helping our beekeeping industry by making us take a long look at the way we keep,medicate and feed our bees! And, I'd add, the industry (and researchers) need to stop making excuses for bee losses. Bee losses are telling you something. I'm from a cattle industry (beef and dairy) background. If we had routinely lost 20% or more of our cows, we'd have been considered very poor cattle men, and probably would not have remained in business. By excuses, I mean taking the easy way out = picking your favorite culprit of the day. In the 60s, early 70s, pesticides killed the majority of bees. In the 90s, mites killed bees, or mites and viruses. In recent years, its new pesticides, and because of some bad batches of HMF in California earlier this year, its now HMF. If not, the new nosema. And, when none of these fits, the driver left the truck in the sun or its toxic honeydew. All of these can and are causes of bee losses. But, common sense says pesticide usage hasn't diminished, and some beekeepers in specific regions of the U.S. have been very vocal about this -- yet most beekeepers that I know have assumed for the last couple decades that they somehow WERE routinely not exposed to the same chemicals - until the CCD. Why are pesticide kills occasional nowadays, with more and I'd contend, riskier chemicals being used in recent years? Because its mites that kill bees, as everybody knows - or thought they knew. The CCD has brought some regional favorites - causal agents- to light. Toxic honeydew - or just poor nutrition from honeydew - seems to be real in some areas at some times -- but where's the proof? So far, its always been -- my dad told me, another beekeeper told me. In some cases, honeydew was blamed for the CCD when that region produced no honeydew (at least not that any plant industry or other beekeepers know about). I'm sure that there are regions with toxic plants -- but just because bees fail in a region doesn't prove its from a toxic plant source. Maybe someone ought to sample, find out once and for all - is it real, or is it a myth? Is something else in the area causing the problem? For example, MT beekeepers are concerned about death camas - and I'd say its a fair question. But the patch of death camas next to my 60 colony research yard never gets any visits. Our beekeepers want to prove me wrong, and I hope they do - but my bees are at no risk from this plant. So, I will now continue picking on Bob, who said: "I haven't read the CCD report " Bob, why not read the report? I'd have thought you'd be one of the first to grab a copy. Bob also said: "I can say when at the American Beekeeping Federation meeting and we all compared notes one of the things we came to realize was that the beekeepers using only sucrose had good bees without CCD problems." Did you ask all of the beekeepers at the ABF whether anyone had fed only sucrose and yet, still experienced the CCD? The answer we've been getting is Yes. That said, we at Bee Alert/UM are sampling for HMF residues, just in case - but I no longer think this is the main issue - maybe it is in a few cases. Unfortunately, the response that Bob found at ABF may be a perturbation of the sample size, mixed with some correct information. I don't know that anyone will argue that HFCS is the best food for bees - but it may be better than starvation - maybe not. Our surveys, and remember, we've been in a lot of states and have received input from a lot of beekeepers indicate that HFCS is NOT, in many cases, a factor. It may contribute (as another stressor), but we've got beekeepers who have never fed HFCS with the CCD problem. We have bees that had great stores of honey and natural pollen, STRONG bee populations, and the bees crashed with CCD. And feeding with sucrose does not necessarily protect the bees from CCD. Note, no one wants a simple fix more than I do, but it just isn't happening. Good beekeepers and bad have the CCD -- and by bad beekeepers, I mean lack of mite control, lots of illegal chemicals, etc. By good, I mean new comb, little or no chemicals. Nothing jumps out of the surveys and hive inspections - there's no simple solution or smoking gun. Getting contradictory information is part of this overall problem. I asked colleagues going to the Canadian National meetings to ask about CCD in Canada. Several said: We've not seen this, and no one at the meeting said that they had seen it. But, one of the speakers at the Canadian meeting, talking about the problem in the U.S. had several Canadian beekeepers come up later and admit to the syndrome. So, in the meantime, in my usual stubborn way, we will keep plugging along - and all of the other members of the CCD are putting forth a concerted effort to get at the source of this problem. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:09:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Maps of CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The maps of CCD are based on the beekeeper survey posted on _www.beesurvey.com_ (http://www.beesurvey.com) . All state reports must be confirmed by followup interviews, inspections. The maps are based on a 12 month period -- not all states are experiencing the CCD at this time. For a state to be added to the list, we look for evidence of collapse in the state itself, as well as any collapse in states like California of Florida. Most recently, CCD has been playing out in CA, OR, OK, and TX, as well as some continued failure in SE states. Several beekeepers have indicated that we should go back 2-3 years. As per honest responses -- we've made a concerted effort to protect beekeeper confidentiality (read the intro to the survey). In fact, after the latest map was posted, some state inspectors called or e-mailed us, wanting to know WHO the reporting beekeeper(s) were. We told them that we can only share that information IF the beekeeper has checked the box on the form allowing us to do so. Not surprisingly, state regulatory officials are the one group that several beekeepers do not want to receive specific information. Once again, the only way we can get correct data is if you, the beekeepers, provide it. We need to know where and when the CCD has been seen, actual locations of affected yards - to see if it spreads to nearby yards, and management information that may help us understand what beekeepers without the CCD are doing differently, if anything, from those with the disorder. As such, not only do we need to hear from beekeepers who have experienced the CCD, but we need to also need to have beekeepers who have managed a reasonably large number of bees for several years without seeing the CCD. (A beekeeper with 1-2 years experience and 1-2 hives is too small to tell much - may have just been lucky). So, rather than argue the correctness of the survey, please participate. These surveys depend on adequate input. We need your assistance. Our maps are based on the best available information, and that information mainly comes from beekeepers. Where possible, we try to get independent confirmation, but we have to trust the beekeeper in the s ame way that the beekeeper has to trust that we will protect the confidentiality of the information. Finally, the map on CBS last night is already out-of-date. You can all add Washington to the list of affected states. And before you ask, no, we have not posted the map on our survey site. We'd just as soon not influence participation by having a respondent look at the map before deciding whether to fill out the survey. Thanks Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:03:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Bobs HFCS comments(+ Bill truesdale) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, i do appreciate your ability to communicate, and feel as if i have benefitted from yours and several others comments. Thank you for passing your article in front of the eyes of the 3 researchers noted in your original post. I do, at times,on BEE-L,feel like the man in the fairy tale i read to my girls when they were little: He had finally captured a Leprechaun, and everybody knows the rules are that if you do that, the litte fellow has to show you where the gold is buried. Well, the Leprechaun led him to a tree deep in the woods under which the gold lay. The man tied a yellow scarf around the tree so that he could find it after going to his house to retrieve his shovel. The man made the Leprechaun promise not to remove the scarf, and since Leprechauns cannot lie, the man released him and returned for his shovel. Coming back to the woods, to his horror, he found all the trees had yellow scarves tied around them! That was free-now to my question. Bobs comments: > I point to the fact that bees feed sucrose have > got greater longevity than bees feed HFCS. > (Roy Barker 1974 Tucson Bee Lab & Pamela Gregory 2008 Weslaco Bee Lab ) > > I might also point out to my friend Allen Dick that Dr. Gregory's tests > were also done on outside flying bees ( 2006) to show the results were > the > same.( Back in 1974 many beekeepers debunked the Barker USDA-ARS research > saying the results would be different if the bees had been flying) My comments / question: Bill Truesdale (I am 95% sure-pleaase comment if Im wrong Bill) noted that a study was done across the water that concluded that the best winter feed is: Sucrose Best HFCS (at least some specs) 2ndBest Honey 3rd Best What kind of life span difference are we talking about here-days , weeks..? I am feeding HFCS, so this is really more than academic for me. I have about 300 hives. I regularly heat it to over 100 deg F for brief periods. Doing this for months, and thus far no noticeable effects. Thanks much for any substantive comments John Horton > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---