From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:55:20 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D412E4907F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpIj016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0711C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 242092 Lines: 5379 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:43:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bee Trees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I often saw swarms living in bushes. I figured they simply gave up looking for a suitable place and stayed where they were. I good size swarm in favorable weather, if it does not pick a nest site in the first few days, will often build a small comb where it landed and the queen will start laying eggs. Once eggs and larvae are present, the bees shift from nest hunting to nectar/pollen hunting. I've removed several swarms from bushes to find a small comb attached to a branch. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: wanting to modify double screen board Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everyone, I've been toying with an idea for a management scheme, but I feel like there's a piece missing from the puzzle yet and I wanted to see if anyone could help with ideas. The scheme would begin in the spring as soon as I've got queen cells ready (typically about five weeks before the main honey flow starts here) and would apply to full strength colonies with swarm pressure mounting. I'm thinking of removing all the capped brood with a very minimal number of bees and placing it above something like a modified double screen board. Optionally, I could leave a trap frame of open drone brood in the parent hive. The parent hive could then be used to draw new comb, much as if it had swarmed, except it would have at least a few frames of open brood, honey, and pollen. In theory, most of the varroa mites would be removed with the capped brood and most of the remaining mites could be trapped in a drone frame, reducing the mite load -- I would guess -- by a very high percentage. The capped brood, meanwhile, would hatch out above the double screen board with the new queen. Optionally, I could use a less than 14-day old queen cell or maybe put the capped brood above a queen excluder for a few days before replacing the queen excluder with a double screen board to ensure that all of the transferred brood hatched out before the first of the new queen's brood was old enough to get infested with varroa. I could then add a laid up trap frame of drone brood from the parent colony below that could catch mites in the brood gap when all the mites would be phoretic and there was no other brood to infest. At the start of the honey flow I could either kill the old queen and combine or set off the split or run a two-queen colony. Besides the labor cost -- which in exchange for swarm control, new drawn comb, natural varroa control, new queens, and optional prepared splits seems reasonable, at least for my circumstances -- the one big problem I can foresee is mites migrating through the double screen board back to the parent colony. I'd like to keep the colonies together, though, both for easier subsequent combining and in order to be able to keep most of the bees with the laying queen (while ensuring against the brood getting chilled in the split). I'm not very content with the only solution I've thought of, though, which is to put a layer of fine mesh between the two layers of regular 8-mesh hardware cloth. The idea would be that the heat could still rise up through the fine mesh, but the bees wouldn't be able to get at it to propolize it. Of course, the idea is that the mesh would be fine enough that mites couldn't pass through. Alternatively, maybe I could just replace the upper layer of hardware cloth with a fine mesh, and maybe the small number of bees above wouldn't propolize their floor until after the brood had hatched. What recommendations can you all make for optimizing/fine-tuning such a scheme? And do you think my goals could be achieved with the scheme? Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 06:51:09 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? In-Reply-To: <20071115.044324.7874.0@webmail18.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hawaii was "blessed" by the presence of varroa "officially" in April 2007. I say "officially" because I believe it has been on Oahu for several years, but because we were supposed to be varroa free, no one was looking for it and it managed to get a foot hold. The big fear is that it will get to the Big Island where the queen rearing companies are at. While I think the BI people are a little concerned about my plight, I think their concern is their livelyhood. Reasonable. It was proposed early on to attempt what New Zealand tried (and failed at) - total eradication of the mites by eradicating the bees, then re-introducing them to Oahu. Some of the BI queen rearers support this and "offer" to restock our bees. Rumor has it that the feds are coming here to seriously contemplate an eradication program with "fines and penalties for non-compliant beekeepers that do not surrender their hives". Supposedly there will be a compensation package as well. Rumor has it that "the national guard and other organizations" will be mobilized to locate all feral colonies. Who destroys them is unclear at this time. Oahu is 600 sq miles of varying terrain. Prominent are the Koolau and Waianae mountain ranges that provide plenty of inaccessible areas. My questions are: 1. Has any other US state or territory attempted total eradication? (I believe the answer is going to be no). 2. Is this legal? Can the USDA command us to surrender our hives in an effort to eradicate the mites? What authority gives them this power? 3. Is this even viable? I believe that it is impossible, short of nuking us, to eliminate all bees, let along all mites. If so, the mite will reestablish itself and we'll have done all for naught. 4. Did the NZ plan even have a chance? 5. Does it make sense to destroy hives that do no present with mites? What about low mite count hives? 6. Should I care about the queen rearing companies? After all, it's a dog eat dog world and while I sympathize, my livelyhood is honey. Kill my bees, especially my best producers and you kill me. The compensation has ranged from $150 to $500 per hive. Our average is 100 lbs per hive and "Lucky we live Hawaii!" - I get top dollar, averaging about $8/lb. What is my true loss? I think this is a "MIssion Impossible" senario. I don't believe it has my best interests in mind, nor will the outcome be any different - we'll still have mites on Oahu. Any comments? Any thoughts? Howard Dirt Poor Oahu Bee Farmer ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:20:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? In-Reply-To: <20071115165118.7C1DD14F01A2@ip-208-109-232-36.ip.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I think this is a "MIssion Impossible" senario. I don't believe it has my > best interests in mind, nor will the outcome be any different - we'll > still have mites on > Oahu. Howard it is my opinion and most researchers that there are two kinds of beekeepeers in the *world*! " Those which have not got varroa and those waiting to get varroa."' The last time killing off hives because of a mite discovery in the U.S. (tracheal mites) happened it did little to stop the problem and I believe the USDA now understands such action is not the answer. Those six (I believe ) beekeepers were put out of the business without compensation. I know you are talking rumors Howard but I doubt you are going to get $100-150 compensation for your hives if a depopulation happens. Takes special legislation to provide funds. The research behind depopulating hives is sound ( with one big *what if*). Varroa will be gone from those hives after a week or so and replacing with varroa free package bees will eliminate varroa in those colonies but what about *feral swarms*(possibly even the source of your varroa and arrived off a ship) ? I believe you are most likely correct about varroa being in your area for a few years. If so I would hope the USDA would simply understand you now have got varroa in your area and we can all move on. Hope things work out for you Howard! If I can be of help please contact me by email. Let me know the name of the person which might want to depopulate hives and perhaps I would be on a first name basis with the person so would try to contact said person and see if I could help. Hopefully you can learn about ways to handle varroa and your world will go on. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:24:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Maryam Henein Subject: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello BeeKeepers, After seven months of hard work, my partner and I have finally finished = putting together a trailer on the vanishing of the bees. Please come to = www.vanishingbees.com and watch it. It's = under 'trailer.' Please understand that this is aimed at investors who likely don't know = about bees period. In the actual film we will go much more in depth and = we aim at educating people about the importance of the honey bee in our = world. We don't want to suggest that there is a beeapocalypse on the = horizon. We've been paying out of pocket which is why I haven't had the = chance to include the latest on IAPV. The buck stops here until I can = raise some funds.=20 With that said, we have teamed up with a non-profit organization in = order to accept tax deductible donations. If you feel like supporting, = any amount is greatly appreciated. I know this is a very tough crowd so = I hope you will appreciate what we've done. Our aim is to get the facts = straight.=20 Bee a part of the solution - help get this film made today. Your gift is = fully tax deductible as we've joined forces with Empowerment Works a = non-profit organization . All donors receive a credit and a DVD of the = finished film. Any amount is greatly appreciated. You can easily pay = online via PAYPAL. Checks should be made payable to:=20 Empowerment Works 1837 Grace Ave Los Angeles, CA 90028 EIN: 31-1796801 info@empowermentworks.org Empowerment Works is the non-profit=20 (501c3) fiscal sponsor of the film. Thank you. Maryam Henein Writer/Producer/All-around Raconteur www.vanishingbees.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DzXircJ_eJ1Y http://ossmedicinejewelry.etsy.com=20 (place link in browser) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: variety brand honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't know where it came from, but I came into possession today of some pretty comb honey labeled "APPLE BLOSSOM brand HONEY" (with the word brand about a fifth the size of the other words). I've seen the same thing with sourwood several times around here (NC). It blows my mind. I've never seen Angus brand Holstein beef or pink lady brand rome apples or merlot brand concord wine. What's the difference? Why just honey? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has any other US state or territory attempted total eradication? You've clearly never heard of the "Citrus Canker Eradication Program" in Florida: http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/canker/pdf/cankerflorida.pdf http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/canker/ ...which suspended the Bill Of Rights and imposed a form of "martial law" in Florida. Mere possession of a citrus tree within 1900 feet of any detection of citrus canker was cause for the state to: a) Enter and search your property without a warrant and without any prior notice b) Seize and destroy any citrus trees they might find, also without any warrant or due process c) Arrest anyone who attempted to prevent or slow this process in the least, including arrests for simply asking them to not destroy the remainder of one's garden when cutting down and cutting up a valuable and pleasant citrus tree. d) These "police powers", in direct conflict with several major Constitutionally-granted rights, were often wielded by mere commercial tree-pruning employees, some who spoke no English working in areas where English was commonly spoken, and others who spoke no Spanish working in areas where Spanish was the more commonly-encountered language. So, these guys with chainsaws break down your locked gate, shoot your dog, who merely puts up a ruckus when confronted with strangers, start cutting down your tree(s), and call in the Sheriff's deputy to arrest you when you object to the cutting down of a tree in a manner that has branches falling into your pool, and both tree hunks and muddy boots smashing your prize petunias. If you did NOT have a citrus tree, they merely break down your gate and shoot your dog, and arrest you for daring to object to any of that. And you pay a fine or do time. And all to "eradicate" a "disease" that merely makes citrus LOOK less attractive, a minor issue in a state where the overwhelming majority of citrus are turned into juice. But the hurricanes blew the fungus everywhere, thereby making everyone realize that they needed "control" rather than eradication: http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/press/2006/01112006_2.html > Is this legal? An astute question! Sadly, under the banner of "public health", none of us have any tangible rights. People have been incarcerated when they had drug-resistant TB, and refused to stay on the "take your medication every day under the watchful eye of a nurse" program. Now bee health is not exactly as mission-critical as human health, so one would wonder just how draconian the state (and USDA) might get. But then you remember citrus canker, and abandon all hope. > Can the USDA command us to surrender our hives in an > effort to eradicate the mites? What authority gives > them this power? No, the state would, by passing a law giving the state Ag folks the actual power. The USDA would merely provide "support" to the state Ag people, and run the overall program. > Is this even viable? Oh, I'd say it was "perfectly possible", if I could get a trip to Hawaii out of the deal. :) On the other hand, I'd also be able to offer compelling arguments that it is not just "Mission Impossible", but "Mission Ridiculous", once again, if I got a nice trip to Hawaii out of the deal. :) I am one of a very tiny number of people who can be called "professional bee-liners", and I'd jump at an all-expenses-paid trip to Hawaii to go bee-lining every day for a few months. Where do I send a resume? :) But in fairness, it must be admitted that the only prior attempt at something similar, when The Santa Cruz Island Reserve hired Robbin Thorp (non-apis bees) and Adrian Wenner (apis bees) to eradicate all non-native bees and hives on a very small island, a task that seemed to them, circa 2001, to be nearly complete: "The feral honey bee eradication project by Dr. Adrian Wenner, UCSB, which is down to one 'weak' hive located in just north and east of the main ranch in the central valley." http://nrs.ucop.edu/Reserves/scir/highlights.html#HL01-02 ...but somehow ended up taking several years more, and was only "successful" because of varroa making its way to the island: "It appears that the introduction of Varroa onto the island of Santa Cruz did what he and Dr. Adrian Wenner could not do manually - finished off the honey bee populations on the island." http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/03-04-04.pdf But not to worry, I don't make the error of mistaking the anti-penultimate hive for the last hive, and I think I would be the ultimate playing field for a worldwide bee-lining competition. It might even become one of those "Reality TV" shows. (Hey, this could turn out to be a serious hunk of change for multiple beekeepers, more than you'd make off several honey crops. Think about that.) > Did the NZ plan even have a chance? Given the lack of napalm use, they were certain to miss a few feral colonies, as they did not deploy a "trap line" of automated foraging bee detector feeding stations. (Of course, no one has ever used them except me, as I'm the only person to enjoy bee-lining enough to create and run a "trap line".) > Does it make sense to destroy hives that do not present > with mites? What about low mite count hives? That's a judgment call, but what part of the term "eradication" led you to think that some hives would be spared for any reason, or that any reasoned input would be solicited? > Should I care about the queen rearing companies? If they are willing to "make you whole", you should be willing to help protect their businesses against what they apparently fear. No, they should provide incentive over and above "make you whole". > The compensation has ranged from $150 to $500 per hive. > Our average is 100 lbs per hive and... $8/lb. > What is my true loss? Like I said, "make you whole" would include covering all losses, not just replacing bees. One of the oldest and most basic examples of "equity" in law is that when your neighbor's dogs kill your cow, you are owed not just the value of the cow, but the value of both the cow and the milk it would have produced. Somehow, I see a similar situation here. If you have business records going back several years, I'd say that media attention alone would get you paid, but an injunction would not be expensive to get, either. But wouldn't be easier to simply make your view of "equitable compensation" known to the queen breeders up front? They might just write you a check. I'd start with Gus Rouse, he's a reasonable person. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:01:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bee Trees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I often saw swarms living in bushes. I figured they simply gave up looking for a suitable place and stayed where they were. > >A good size swarm in favorable weather, if it does not pick a nest site in the first few days, will often build a small comb where it landed and the queen will start laying eggs. Right, but I am talking about swarms living year 'round outdoors. Not uncommon at all in regions with a Mediterranean climate. But I don't think they do it by choice. I am pretty sure they would much rather be in a hollow tree or a cave than living unprotected in a bush. The problem is scarcity of suitable cavities. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:43:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: variety brand honey In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > "APPLE BLOSSOM brand HONEY" Or how about..."Buckwheat Flavored" capping melter honey. Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:42:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "carimona@GMAIL.COM" Subject: Re: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The movie focused on some important issues in Ag and beekeeping, like over working the bees and pesticide useage. I did not like the underlying tone and message of the movie though. IMO the problem with this movie is the same problem with 90% of the printed media on CCD, it assumes that there was a big near catastrophic loss. The story is built on a false premise. Many of us beleive that the true percentage of hives lost nationally to CCD was 2-5%. To back that statement up with real world facts, consider that the CA almonds were pollinated without a shortage and there was never a shortage of package or queens bees in spring 2007. Sorry we just did not have a huge national loss or shortage of bees! We are no were near collapse as the movie intoned at the end. This is just more sensationlistic hooey. It implies we can do nothing as CCD is One BIg Mystery.. The fact is we can and should change the system of how bees are kept and moved in the USA. No big mystery here what the problems are. I would recommend that attention be given to the fact that if CCD was a contagious disease that randomly affected any hive that with the mass movement of hives each year we have a wonderully efficient system of spreading deadly problems across the nation within a couple of months time. That to me is more interesting and mind boggling then CCD that was possibly nothing more then a flash in the pan. Who cares about CCD that hardly affected that many hives. Why not focus on how we will deal with the next Big One someday if we keep allowing free for all mass movement with no plan for quarrantine in the event we really did have a deadly pathogen. How stupid would the industry look if the average Joe realzed that we have NADA, Nothing, Zero, in place to stop the quick spread of deadly disease via migratory beekeeping. While all beekeeping is local I would add to that refrain - most bee related problems are essentially a result of bee movement by humans. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:52:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? In-Reply-To: <20071115165118.7C1DD14F01A2@ip-208-109-232-36.ip.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Howard & All, Thanks for the email Howard! Will see what I can do! Thanks to Jim Fsicher for his information which rings true except the problem has been taken to DC. instead of the state level. Remember Howard a trip to DC many think will solve their problems. Has not been my experience. Is the finding of varroa in your area a real crisis? A huge problem for the queen producers? I certainly would not want to see my tax dollars spent on such a depopulation. If as Jim says the queen producers cover your losses then why not? You might even come out ahead of the game. if both groups come to an agreement than you really do not need to involve the USDA and simply depopulate your islands bees and try to eleminate all feral colonies. I still say a big waste of time and resources and doomed to failure *in the long run* but why involve the Usda? I have to wonder (based on the amounts you provided) if the queen producers would consider the possible future varroa problem serious enough to fork over they amount of money you want. I have been involved with trying to get the *powers that be* to compensate beekeepers for decades and other than the old indemnity program ( $18 a hive) all doors were shut in our faces. Even efforts in DC to get compensation for hives lost in Katrina failed. No help for those beekeepers which kind of surprised me. In fact beekeepers do not even enjoy many of the farm programs other ag people do! We are in the words of my friend David hackenberg "the red haired stepchild of agriculture". My best guess is the queen producers will not want to come up with the money to pay for the losses and DC will not provide the money as the arrival of varroa in most areas of the world will in most opinions happen in time. bob " thinking trips to DC without bearing gifts usually will only get a senator handshake" -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:05:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Maryam Henein Subject: Re: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I mentioned in my initial email, this is geared for the masses, most = of whom don't even know bees pollinate. Second, the quotes included were = from real people. This is a trailer aimed at getting money. With a film = you need to show that the stakes are high. When I have the money to = complete the film I will go into much more detail on many fronts. I am = not PBS or SIxty Minutes with a slot to fill and ratings to get. I = generally care about the bees and this is a window into CCD. CCD is just = a launching pad, the more important thing is how the bees are treated. = Re-queening ad nauseum, giving them corn-syrup, stressing them for job = to job are all under question as practices that are compromising the = bee's immune system. The quote at the end is from a beekeeper. I did'n't feed him lines and = he is near bankruptcy.=20 CCD is a wake up call to tell the public that we need bees. That we need = to respect nature. And that we've gone to far in the way we farm. when = the way a fruit looks is more important to the way it tastes. Maryam Henein Writer/Producer/All-around Raconteur www.vanishingbees.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DzXircJ_eJ1Y http://ossmedicinejewelry.etsy.com=20 (place link in browser) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: carimona@GMAIL.COM=20 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu=20 Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP = -- please view! The movie focused on some important issues in Ag and beekeeping, like = over working the bees=20 and pesticide useage.=20 I did not like the underlying tone and message of the movie though. = IMO the problem with this=20 movie is the same problem with 90% of the printed media on CCD, it = assumes that there was a big=20 near catastrophic loss. The story is built on a false premise.=20 Many of us beleive that the true percentage of hives lost nationally = to CCD was 2-5%. To back=20 that statement up with real world facts, consider that the CA almonds = were pollinated without a=20 shortage and there was never a shortage of package or queens bees in = spring 2007. Sorry we just=20 did not have a huge national loss or shortage of bees! We are no were near collapse as the movie intoned at the end. This is = just more sensationlistic=20 hooey. It implies we can do nothing as CCD is One BIg Mystery.. The = fact is we can and should=20 change the system of how bees are kept and moved in the USA. No big = mystery here what the=20 problems are. =20 I would recommend that attention be given to the fact that if CCD was = a contagious disease that=20 randomly affected any hive that with the mass movement of hives each = year we have a wonderully=20 efficient system of spreading deadly problems across the nation within = a couple of months time. =20 That to me is more interesting and mind boggling then CCD that was = possibly nothing more then=20 a flash in the pan. Who cares about CCD that hardly affected that many = hives. Why not focus on=20 how we will deal with the next Big One someday if we keep allowing = free for all mass movement=20 with no plan for quarrantine in the event we really did have a deadly = pathogen.=20 How stupid would the industry look if the average Joe realzed that we = have NADA, Nothing, Zero,=20 in place to stop the quick spread of deadly disease via migratory = beekeeping.=20 While all beekeeping is local I would add to that refrain - most bee = related problems are=20 essentially a result of bee movement by humans. =20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * = http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 02:00:44 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Many of us beleive that the true percentage > of hives lost nationally to CCD was 2-5%. I haven't heard "many" people express this view, but a few persist in making the claim despite being firmly and repeatedly contradicted by the people who have actual feet on the ground doing things like counting CCD deadouts, tallying the confidential survey responses, and so on. > CCD that was possibly nothing more then a flash in the pan. If it was a "flash in the pan", then prepare to move from frying pan to fire. It helps to read the papers, take a few phone calls from one's collogues in the business, read one's e-mail, and so on: http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/10/25/BEES26_COX.html Apparently, they're baaaack. http://wavcentral.com/cgi-bin/log/log.cgi?id=4754&sound=/sounds/movies/p oltergeist/pg2back.mp3 > Who cares about CCD that hardly affected that many hives. Everyone who is not whistling past the graveyard, blaming "management practices" while hoping that virtue and clean living will protect them from the problem, which appears to be everyone except a tiny but vocal group of people who seem to want to deny science itself. > important issues in Ag and beekeeping, like over working the bees I'm not exactly sure how one can "overwork" an insect that works when it pleases and rests when it pleases, but maybe some developed a very tiny little time clock? Perhaps the bees need a union? (If so, they should join the I-Bee-E-W!) > and pesticide usage. Well, while pesticides aren't off the table any more now that a certain virus seems much less compellingly associated with much of anything, it must be pointed out that work done so far has found nothing more than one would expect - tiny low-level traces of everything one could think of, but nothing that looks like a good suspect to associate with CCD. > if we keep allowing free for all mass movement with no plan > for quarantine in the event we really did have a deadly pathogen. That's an issue that has been discussed many times here on Bee-L, but, just for entertainment value, below is the complete list of agricultural quarantine efforts that have ever succeeded: None > Nothing in place to stop the quick spread of deadly disease > via migratory beekeeping. Funny you should mention - are you aware of how many NON-migratory operations, well off the usual migratory routes have been hit by CCD? Also, what should we do about all the packages and queens being shipped hither and yon within the US, many to brand-new beekeepers with shiny new smokers who wouldn't know a varroa mite from a small hive beetle from a drone bee? Guess we'll have to just tell them to close up shop. And what about swarms? They worked pretty well to expand Africanized Bees all the way from South America through Central America, and into the US? Guess we'll have to eliminate swarming completely. > most bee related problems are essentially a result of bee movement by humans. Across oceans, yes. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:40:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! In-Reply-To: <000301c8281e$6883b0d0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim Fischer said: >Funny you should mention - are you aware of how many NON-migratory operations, well off the usual migratory routes have been hit by CCD?< -------------------------------------------- CCD is totally outside my field of expertyise, and I keep out of any discussions about this issue. But, I am curious: about the answer to Fischer's rethorical question? Have non-migrating operations, far off the migration route been hit by CCD? Have non-migrating opersations, well on the migratory operations been hit by CCD? The reason I ask these questions is that I have become intrigued by a suggestion recently brought up by one member of this forum who proposed one possible effect of migrating with bee-hives, that has nothing to do with "overworking" the bees, or spreading disease vectors. He proposed that keeping the bees in closed hives for the many hours often required to transport them, may have a detrimental effect by interfering with the bee's ability to control the temperature inside the hive. If such an effect exists at all, it certainly would not be "infective. Nor do I know why it would manifest itself in the way CCD is reported to show up, with beekeepers reportedly finding hives with brood & food, but very few adults. But, it is an interesting possibility to consider. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 06:34:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! In-Reply-To: <7dd5575e0711160440q4b17b251mf3fc5542a28d7fb2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I watched the trailer, and like Ruth, my ignorance reminds me that silence is the better part of discretion. I just don't know enough to really make an informed opinion. However, let me open my mouth and confirm what they say about the village idiot. First, I totally disagree about the notion of "overworking" bees. They were designed to work and no one forces them to work. They live to work and provide for future generations. The same overworking argument could be applied to my clock in the kitchen. Am I overworking it by allowing it to run 24-hours a day, 7-days a week? Should I not turn it off when I'm at the office during the day? Nonsense! Clocks were made to run. Bees were made to forage. My other thought was on the assessment and determination of what CCD really is and do I have it? It seems we've lost a lot of bees lately, but CCD has some very particular symptoms. Last spring some local beekeepers lost their bees. When asked about what they saw when they opened the hive they basically described a tiny cluster that froze because it could not generate enough heat to move another 2" to reach the honey. And they're asking, presuming and concluding they have CCD. How many other mismanagement errors are being blamed to the no-fault conclusion of CCD? And the news media seems to salivate over anything that represents doom and gloom. I've given up on depending on any catastrophe-driven "news" media to give me an accurate assessment of what's really happening in the world. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:35:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bill bartlett Subject: tulip popular honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Over thirty years ago when I started to keep bees, I remember a map of = the United States that showed the US broken up into regions depending on = what was the main nectar source was for that area. For me here in = Southern Maryland, our area was called the tulip popular region. For = many years we did real good with the nectar flow from tulip popular. It = was a dark honey with a nice taste; not a strong taste that you might = expect from a dark honey. For the past 15 years at least, we got no tulip popular honey. We talked = about it at our beekeeper meetings (Association of Southern Maryland = Beekeepers). During the past several years I have watched a tulip = popular tree that is right next to my deck. Anytime I looked I saw no = bees on the large tulip shaped flowers. No one seemed to know why but we = all recognized that the bees weren=92t working the tulip trees. I was = asked if I checked early in the morning. I hadn=92t. The following year = I checked at all times of the day. No bees; only an occasional insect = would come by to inspect the flowers.=20 I live on a small tidal pond next to a large river. As a young boy and = for a short while after I got married, we ice skated on this pond every = winter. It has not frozen over enough for ice skating for many years.=20 It recently occurred to me that the warming we are experiencing may have = an effect on the tulip popular trees. Maybe the trees need a long hard = freeze to produce the nectar. The only things I am sure of is that the = weather is warming and the bees are not working the tulip popular trees. = Has anybody else noticed changes like this with their plants or trees? Bill Bartlett 19124 Lake Drive Leonardtown, Maryland 20650 wbartlett@md.metrocast.net ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:37:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: extent of CCD losses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Many of us beleive that the true percentage >> of hives lost nationally to CCD was 2-5%. >> To back that statement up with real world >> facts, consider that the CA almonds were >> pollinated without a shortage and there was >> never a shortage of package or queens bees >> in spring 2007. Sorry we just did not have >> a huge national loss or shortage of bees! > >I haven't heard "many" people express this view, >but a few persist in making the claim despite being >firmly and repeatedly contradicted by the people who >have actual feet on the ground doing things like >counting CCD deadouts, tallying the confidential >survey responses, and so on. The "actual feet on the ground" sound like statistically insignificant anecdote (can't see the forest for the trees), which is about all we can say for the big picture provided by non-random surveys; almonds tell an aggregate story, as does the supply of package bees. Don't almonds and packages tell the most reliable stories about the broad impact of CCD? "Actual feet on the ground" may have immense value in understanding details, but that's a very unreliable place to find an accurate big picture. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:29:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: extent of CCD losses In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Don't almonds and > packages tell the most reliable stories about the > broad impact of > CCD? Almonds give the best information these days on the majority of the U.S. hives as clearly 2/3 of U.S. hives are moved into California. Not being able to get package bees and queens (which happened in the spring of 2006 in the U.S. ) clearly showed the extent of losses over the 2005/2006 winter (blamed by most beekeepers as either SSDD or varroa related) which from my sources was greater numbers of dead hives industry wise than the 2006/2007 winter. In Missouri in spring 2006 we called the entire list of queen and package producers looking for queens (as we needed other than the 100's we had ordered the year before which were sent) to make extra spilts as our bees were super strong and needing split to keep out of the trees. Hives returning from almonds were super strong needing split. We place an order for so many each spring from several queen producers and then when we see exactly the number needed we call for extra amounts. Always has worked until a big die-off happens. When making calls looking for extra queens all the queen and package producers in spring 2006 said they were overwhelmed with beekeepers looking for package bees and queens. Surely others on the list had the same problem in spring 2006 as we did? We were finally able to get a 500 queen order out of Australia but their season was over and took some talking to get the queens. Commercial beekeeping keeps getting harder and harder and the headaches bigger and bigger. CCD is only one of many new problems. Unless I change my mind next spring I am moving into the sideliner class and slowly getting out.( except for a couple hundred hives in the backyard for honey for family and friends ). Sadly my wife said last year I will have to stop putting a couple hundred hives in the field next to the house as a new neighbor is allergic. The neighbor said as a kid she stepped on a bee barefoot and her foot had swollen up. Ever try and convince a person her reaction was normal? Hard to do!I guess it does not matter that I was here first and the bee farm was a pasture when I started. I was feeding bees this morning when my faithful ton and a half four-wheel drive feed truck started making a noise. I pulled in the repair shop in Higginsville and was told the flywheel flex plate was cracked. Good news and bad news I was told. Good news is the part is not expensive but the bad news is the transmission and transfer case need pulled to replace the part. A decade ago I would change the equipment to another flatbed ( I have several others standing by) and go on but today I am shutting down and pumping hot water through the lines and will worry about the problem next spring. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:43:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: CCD, Almond Pollination, Bee Shortage In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "carimona@GMAIL.COM" wrote: The movie .... (Discussion of the trailer) The story is built on a false premise. Many of us beleive that the true percentage of hives lost nationally to CCD was 2-5%. To back that statement up with real world facts, consider that the CA almonds were pollinated without a shortage and there was never a shortage of package or queens bees in spring 2007. This discussion seems to tie in the bee loss with the ability to provide for almond pollination. Package bees were brought in from Australia. How many packages? How many of the packages were relegated to the almond groves. Would there have been a significant shortage if we had not had the importation? How many of the Aussie packages made up for a potential shortage of packages last spring? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:04:38 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > about the answer to Fischer's rethorical question? It wasn't a rhetorical question. But wouldn't a "reTHORical question" involve the repeated use of thunder, a hammer, or pleas to Odin? :) > Have non-migrating operations, far off the migration route been hit by CCD? Yes. The person claiming both that CCD did not exist, and that the problem (the one that he claims does not exist) was being spread by migratory operations was clearly not aware of these CCD cases. > Have non-migrating opersations, well on the migratory operations been hit by CCD? Also yes. There's just no clear pattern apparent at this point that would allow ANY single mechanism or type of entity to be blamed for the transmission and spread of CCD. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:34:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: extent of CCD losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit View from on the ground in California--returning from the State Convention. No sense arguing anymore about whether colony collapses are real. The industry is having a hard time, and many beekeepers are indeed experiencing collapses. Could be CCD, but not critical what percentage due to that cause. Mites, N ceranae, and poor nutrition due to weather are likely the cause of many--these are real, identifiable problems, not mysteries. There is no informed person here who would venture a prediction as to how we are going to look come February. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:47:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From my point of view, a properly conceived eradication program on Oahu (only 600 sq mi) has a high chance of success and should be seriously considered. There will be a critical window of opportunity in about two years when we would expect the feral population to crash nearly completely. The main sticking points would be compensation of beeks, and pollination of crops during the eradication period. I've detailed suggestions to the State. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:00:41 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: extent of CCD losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The "actual feet on the ground" sound like statistically insignificant > anecdote (can't see the forest for the trees), I'm not sure how an inspection and sample collection effort that resulted in peer-reviewed "statistically significant" data could be dismissed as somehow statically Insignificant in terms of metadata (the detailed descriptions of symptoms and conditions noted about each hive, yard and operation from which samples were collected). > which is about all we can say for the big picture provided > by non-random surveys Now one can't have it both ways - if neither a dedicated effort to inspect large numbers of hives in detail using consistent criteria nor a nationwide self-reporting survey are sufficient, doesn't at least the general agreement between the two add considerable confidence? > almonds tell an aggregate story I disagree strongly. Higher fees for almond pollination will attract new players who might have otherwise stayed home, so the market is far top fluid to think that there would be a one-for-one impact between losses taken by less than all operations and hives made available for rental. In fact, even those affected to extraordinary measures to build up colony numbers, buying packages, making splits and generally scrambling to be able to continue to meet their contracted commitments. The problem is, all this cost extra money, for no extra income above what they might have earned anyway. And you can't track that until operations start going bust. That's the sort of "proof" I'd rather not have, thank you. > as does the supply of package bees. To my knowledge, there was a report from one single package operation of what might have been CCD symptoms, which was then promptly retracted when they realized the implications of what they were saying. Its not clear that ANY package operations were affected by CCD. > Don't almonds and packages tell the most reliable stories > about the broad impact of CCD? No. Its more complex than that. Much more. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:10:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: tulip popular honey In-Reply-To: <00c401c8285d$e0f3c200$5e0924d8@D651JL91> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill, I have?several hundreds?of big tulip poplars?filled with blooms and dripping nectar on the ground?within a mile of my hives and in 5 years I have never to my knowledge gotten a tulip poplar honey crop.? They do seem to occasionally work the tulip poplar for pollen as there?are some trace amounts of tulip poplar pollen in the honey harvested in that time frame.? They seem to have a preference for other blossoms that perhaps have a higher sugar content in my area. Jerry Wallace Atlanta, GA ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:37:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: tulip popular honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit bill bartlett >For the past 15 years at least, we got no tulip popular honey. I think it is important to realize that a particular plant may be an excellent honey plant, but if there aren't enough of them, honey bees will simply work on something else that is more productive. Tulip poplar has been harvested for its cabinet grade lumber to the extent that there may not be enough of them still left to attract bees, especially if there is something else that is attracting them during the bloom period. In other words, a field of a particular flower is going to give the hive better returns than a single tulip tree in somebody's yard, even if that flower is not a real great honey honey plant. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:08:46 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? In-Reply-To: <010401c82891$f30c55e0$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, From my point of view, a properly conceived eradication program on Oahu (only 600 sq mi) has a high chance of success and should be seriously considered. Yes, but only eradicate the managed hives/colonies, let the feral population live. If varroa kills all of the feral bees after a period of years then good. If the feral population crashes down to mite tolerant bees then good. When and if the feral population rebounds then study the feral bees and copy. This Island has the rare opportunity to deal with varroa with natures help. All one needs to have nature help is to eradicate the beekeeper for a little while. Keith Malone On Nov 16, 2007, at 11:47 AM, randy oliver wrote: > From my point of view, a properly conceived eradication program on > Oahu (only 600 sq mi) has a high chance of success and should be > seriously considered. There will be a critical window of > opportunity in about two years when we would expect the feral > population to crash nearly completely. > The main sticking points would be compensation of beeks, and > pollination of crops during the eradication period. I've detailed > suggestions to the State. > Randy Oliver > ****************************************************** > * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * > ****************************************************** ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:11:02 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? In-Reply-To: <010401c82891$f30c55e0$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, > From my point of view, a properly conceived eradication program on Oahu (only 600 sq mi) has a high chance of success and should be seriously considered. > Yes, but only eradicate the managed hives/colonies, let the feral population live. If varroa kills all of the feral bees after a period of years then good. If the feral population crashes down to mite tolerant bees then good. When and if the feral population rebounds then study the feral bees and copy. This Island has the rare opportunity to deal with varroa with natures help. All one needs to have nature help is to eradicate the beekeeper for a little while. Keith Malone ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:00:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? In-Reply-To: <9B9C2FC541F049B898522B3B7641EBF6@bobPC> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 15-Nov-07, at 10:52 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: > If as Jim says the queen producers cover your losses then why not? > You might even come out ahead of the game. > if both groups come to an agreement than you really do not need to > involve the USDA and simply depopulate your islands bees and try to > eleminate all feral colonies. I still say a big waste of time and > resources and doomed to failure *in the long run* but why involve > the Usda? Hi All Why not ship the bees from your Island to California for almond pollination, supported by Big Island Queen producers, then let the powers that be eliminate the feral colonies. Once you are free of varroa, have the Queen producers supply you with new "clean" bees. The money from California should help with losses in production. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada(kinda like Hawaii(160W20S) only colder) 80W44N ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:58:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Bee Trailer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All To my knowledge, there are at least a dozen film makers currently working on documentaries about bees. Some are focusing on beekeeping per se, some on CCD, some on individual beekeepers, etc. Some are well funded, most are working on spec. If you wish to donate to one, check them out, see if you agree with their focus -- each has their own take on things. Just because someone asks for money to produce a bee film doesn't mean that you don't have other options - lots of choices at the moment. Jerry ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:01:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bee Trailer Comments: To: BeeResearch@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jerry, =20 > Just because someone asks for money to produce a bee film doesn't > mean that you don't have other options - lots of choices at the = moment. Any pointers regarding what and where? =20 Aaron Morris - thinking Google is great with the right search = arguements! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:00:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Royal Jelly May Help Maintain Healthy Brain Function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Royal Jelly May Help Maintain Healthy Brain Function AMP N1-oxide, a unique compound of royal jelly, induces neurite outgrowth from PC12 cells via signaling by protein kinase A independent of that by mitogen-activated protein kinase Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine (eCAM), 10/29/2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/11/royal-jelly-may-help-maintain-healthy.html …AMP N1-oxide is a unique compound not found in natural resources so far other than RJ. Therefore, it may be the molecule responsible for RJ-specific physiological actions on the CNS. Our study provides molecular-based evidence that RJ regulates neuronal functions through A2A receptor signaling enhanced by AMP N1-oxide... Elucidation of the physiological roles of AMP N1-oxide in brain function is important to develop RJ as an evidence-based complementary and alternative medicine. Taking RJ as a source of AMP N1-oxide may be promising to maintain healthy brain functions. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:58:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! In-Reply-To: <002101c8287b$27f5ae80$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline So, do those who engage in migrating-operations and transport honeybee colonies to an orchard , say, leave the hives there until the trees in the orchard stop blooming, i.e. until all the petals are shed, and no new flowers appear? Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("Prickly pear") ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:05:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: extent of CCD losses In-Reply-To: <00d901c82890$228df730$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit randy oliver wrote: > No sense arguing anymore about whether colony collapses are real. The > industry is having a hard time, and many beekeepers are indeed > experiencing collapses. Could be CCD, but not critical what > percentage due to that cause. Mites, N ceranae, and poor nutrition > due to weather are likely the cause of many--these are real, > identifiable problems, not mysteries. The most accurate synopsis of just what is going on. But it also carries the problem that CCD causes the industry. CCD is a symptom looking for a cause. There are some who say that the symptoms are unique, but they are not. The symptoms have been seen with mites, nutrition and combinations of factors by those who see thousands of colonies from many different organizations yearly. They have been seen for years. CCD is looking for a singularity (IAPV) or something combined with it (pesticides). While Randy has spoken what the real problem is and that is the industry is in trouble. But that is not the focal point of research. Instead, we have zeroed in on an ephemeral. The house is burning to the ground while we looking to see if there is a doghouse we can save. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:10:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bill bartlett Subject: Re: tulip popular honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Wallace wrote: I have?several hundreds?of big tulip poplars?filled with blooms and dripping nectar on the ground?within a mile of my hives and in 5 years I have never to my knowledge gotten a tulip poplar honey crop.? Bill Bee: Since you are in Atlanta, Ga, south of me, that would mean that my theory about the cold doesn't hold. I have read and heard that poplar trees "drip nectar." That will be what I do next year is to pull some flowers and see what is in them. It still seems strange that for many years we got tulip poplar honey and now the bees don't touch it. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:03:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: CCD, Almond Pollination, Bee Shortage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Since the beekeepers on this list can't agree on the extent of CCD, is it any wonder that the media and film makers present a distorted picture? :) My customers and co-workers often ask about my bee losses with concern and are very suprised to hear I have not lost any colonies. They then ask about the media reports to which I can only say that I SUSPECT the losses occur where hives are near big ag or are used for pollination contracts. My local [retired] bee inspector has often said beekeepers who moved hives to pollinate crops on farms outside of the suburbia here frequently come back with AFB. Seems the locations contain lots of spores. I have not heard of CCD cases in this area. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:32:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said > This Island has the rare > opportunity to deal with varroa with natures help. All one needs to have > nature help is to eradicate the beekeeper for a little while. Hi Keith, True, but I'm not sure how rare. There are islands in Europe purposely being used this way. What got me thinking about eradicating Oahu was a proposed long-term budget that I saw for dealing with the mite. In my mind, it appeared far cheaper to simply let the mites do the work of depopulating the island, and starting fresh. It's kind of nice to have a totally mite-free state. Perhaps the island could be restocked with virus- and nosema-free bees. Infestation will likely occur again, but we would at that point better understand the cost of total eradication. This is a bold proposal, but I feel that it is one in which a cost-benefit analysis should be done. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:40:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?GB2312?Q?Zachary_Huang?= Subject: ueen Bees Control Sex of Young After All Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Recent comment from Science journal: http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2007/1115/2 Queen Bees Control Sex of Young After All By Matt Kaplan ScienceNOW Daily News 15 November 2007 Royalty has its privileges, even in the insect world. Queen honey bees can choose the sex of their offspring, a new study shows. Like a sharp stinger, that finding pokes a hole in the notion that queens are merely mindless egg layers and that worker bees have the final say on whether the queen lays eggs that give rise to males or females. Every young queen goes on a mating flight and then stores the sperm she collects from multiple matings for the rest of her life, using it up bit by bit as she lays eggs. Males, called drones, emerge from unfertilized eggs, and females emerge from fertilized ones and become the workers. So if the queen adds sperm to an egg, it will produce a female; if she withholds sperm, the egg will produce a male. That would appear to give the queen control over the sex of her offspring. However, the dogma among entomologists is that workers control the type of eggs the queen lays. The workers build the cavities, known as cells, in which the queen will lay her eggs. A queen will lay an unfertilized egg in a particular cell only if the cell is big enough to accommodate a male larva, which is bigger than a female one. So by controlling how many cells they build of each size, the workers can limit how many male offspring the queen produces. Despite these constraints, the queen can still tip the gender balance of the hive, report Katie Wharton and a team of entomologists at Michigan State University in East Lansing. To prove it, they confined queens inside their hives in specially built cages. Each cage was placed so that the queen could not reach the large cells where she could lay drone eggs but only the small cells where she could lay worker eggs. After 4 days, the cage was removed and the queen allowed to roam free in the hive, which had ample empty cells of both sizes. The queen then sought out the larger cells and, on average, laid nearly three times as many drone eggs as usual, apparently making up for the skewed hive gender ratio that resulted from her incarceration, the researchers report in the November/December issue of Behavioural Ecology. "The workers and the queen clearly share control of honey bee demographics," Wharton says. "It was like discovering a checks-and-balances government inside the hive." The queen's ability to make "her own decisions" adds a new layer of complexity to life in the hive and raises questions about what stimuli the queen is responding to, says Lars Chittka, an entomologist at Queen Mary University in London. "Is she remembering how many eggs she has laid, can she sense how much sperm she has used, or is there some sort of chemosensory cue telling her how many drone larvae are in the cells?" Chittka says. "Following this new research, it's anybody's guess." ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:45:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: nay-sayers perpetual Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >below is the complete list >of agricultural quarantine efforts that have ever succeeded: The US-Canada border closure worked for ~5 years Since, 15 yrs, the border has been continued closed for no good reason (except to ensure the employment of bureaucrats) >CCD is a symptom looking for a cause. There are some who say that the >symptoms are unique, but they are not. Clearly you don't have ccd. What about the effects on ants and wax moth larvae?? Tell me where you have seen this before >I can only say that I SUSPECT the losses occur where hives are near big ag or are used for pollination contracts. Not me, and I got it from a NZ Queen(or attendants) dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:09:15 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? In-Reply-To: <01fc01c82937$8212a820$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, > True, but I'm not sure how rare. There are islands in Europe > purposely being used this way. Rare in this case would be only a few. This is interesting, could you tell me more? How many Islands, for how long have they been used this way, and how are they being looked at or monitored? > In my mind, it appeared far cheaper to simply let the mites do the > work of depopulating the island, and starting fresh. That may be true assuming that all colonies, managed and Feral, would die. If they all die then that would say that the 10% that is said would survive because they are mite tolerant is untrue. If some do survive then the Island would repopulate with mite tolerant bees from the Feral. I still think it would be best for experimental reasons, is to eradicate the beekeeper and then observe what happens to the bee from that point for about six or more years. > It's kind of nice to have a totally mite-free state. There are still the other Islands. Also it would be nice to have bees that could tolerate mites and have a place where bees could go wild and show researchers how they would handle mites on their own. Another thing is what would be so good having a mite free state? I tried for years to get package bees from Hawaii and found out it to be very difficult for one reason or another. Beekeepers there are a unique lot but aren't all beekeeper unique. We could make Alaska a mite free state but beekeepers here are a unique lot for sure. > Perhaps the island could be restocked with virus- and nosema-free bees. Where would those bees be found. What makes this a "Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable?" is beekeeper influence. Keith Malone ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:34:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: nay-sayers perpetual Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I can only say that I SUSPECT the losses occur where hives are near big ag or are used for pollination contracts. Not me, and I got it from a NZ Queen(or attendants) How can you be certain? CCD may have been low level or 'dormant' in the hive prior to the queen intro. Are NZ queens allowed into the US? I assume you are in the US. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:44:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: wanting to modify double screen board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric, Similar principles are applied in a method advocated in the UK - thus: make an artificial swarm and put the queen on a frame of open brood on the old site, completing the box with foundation. If you add the QE and super of drawn comb you might get some extra honey if there's a flow as the bees will have nowhere but the super to put it. The flying bees, complete with phoretic mites, rejoin the queen. During the next few days the mites enter the open cells. You remove and destroy that comb when the cells are sealed. The parent colony raises/ is given a queen who should take some time to mate and come into lay. During this time the old queen's brood hatches, complete with mites who have nowhere to go for a while. When the new queen starts to lay, the mites will be keen to enter the new brood as soon as it is at the optimum stage for them. The beekeeper waits until the first comb is sealed and removes and destroys it. The colonies can then be run on separately or re-united if that would be more advantageous. You will have got rid of a high proportion of the mites at a cost of 2 frames of brood; drawn new brood combs; re-queened; obtained the extra bees from running 2 queens for a while, and possibly gained an extra super of honey while the foundation in the brood box was being drawn. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:45:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: nay-sayers perpetual Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Not me, and I got it from a NZ Queen(or attendants) > >How can you be certain? CCD may have been low level or 'dormant' in the hive prior to the queen intro. > >Are NZ queens allowed into the US? I assume you are in the US. Ontario No, no ccd previous to Summer 06 With ccd comes a higher level of "dinks", higher than you would normally have. This is only clear in retrospect (ie 15% vrs 5%) And no new bees into my yards in 05 dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:13:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "carimona@GMAIL.COM" Subject: Re: CCD, Almond Pollination, Bee Shortage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:03:44 GMT, waldig@netzero.com wrote: >Since the beekeepers on this list can't agree on the extent of CCD, is it any wonder that the media and film makers present a distorted picture? :) > the Mn and NoDak Apriary Inspectors have gone on record in the media as saying no CCD up there. call them and check it out. no one at the state bee meetings in that region had any stories either about CCD. no one ever had problems getting bees either even with last minute calls for queens in May. i'd disagree with your comment that beekeepers on this list disagree. most of the people on this list who are most vocal insisting that CCD is this big deal don't even keep bees anymore. they sell consulting services or act as experts when the media calls. they live in big cities or spend alot of time at a desk. while it did afflict a small number of beeks its pretty safe to say that the media version is pretty much a hoax as they make it out like the sky is falling. billions and trillions of bees disappeared, with losses from 50-90%. we'll all be eating rice next year. ROTFL my customers too seem surprised when I reply "you mean the Y2K bee story of 2007"? they all seem disappointed when we have no horror stories to tell. it must be real we saw it on TV!!! its becoming a religious sect. - you know the kind. liberal tree hugging types worried about GMO's and global warming. many with no science background at all. now the so called disappearing bees is another beleif system neccassary to be worsiping in the house of doom and gloom. of course the bees MUST be disappearing as the world is coming to a tipping point of environmental crisis. for a real life wake up slap to the face just wait til the 2007 honey crop report comes out. what i hear is it will be close to 2006 production. so how did we pull that off with an apocalyptic bee loss of histrorical proportions? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:41:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "carimona@GMAIL.COM" Subject: Re: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:58:25 -0500, Ruth Rosin wrote: >So, do those who engage in migrating-operations and transport honeybee >colonies to an orchard , say, leave the hives there until the trees in the >orchard stop blooming, i.e. until all the petals are shed, and no new >flowers appear? i grow apples and keep bees for a living. usually the orchardist is eager to get rid of the colonies as the first insecticide spray goes down at petal fall. often times fungicide is sprayed before or during bloom to combat scab in apples. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:49:28 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...assuming that all colonies, managed and Feral, would die. > > If they all die then that would say that the 10% that is said > would survive because they are mite tolerant is untrue. While the opportunity to learn more using this situation as a "lab" for the experiment is tempting, I don't think that either "side" of the issue would put up with being guinea pigs for the rest of us. Even if some "varroa tolerant" colonies survived, the risk of infesting the other islands with varroa would then still exist. This would make the queen producers very nervous. To them, the money and effort would have been wasted. Those same (fabled) "varroa tolerant" colonies would be ongoing sources of varroa to reinfest managed hives, creating an endless cycle of monitoring and destruction for the beekeepers on the island infested with varroa. This would get very tedious at some point, as no one likes to build up colonies only to see them gassed. (And from where did you pull a number like 10%?) But the actual draft plan: http://www.hawaii.gov/hdoa/pi/ppc/varroa-bee-mite-folder/varroa-mite-sit uation-reports/ (watch that listserv line-wrap!) Says that they (only) want to eradicate INFESTED hives, based upon Apistan-driven drop counts. The wording implies that these would be infested managed hives only. Nothing is said about feral colonies at all. It is as if they are not aware that feral colonies exist. But given issues of drift and robbing alone, combined with the feral colony population, I don't see the practical advantage of eradicating managed colonies found to be "infested" when there is no plan to first eradicate the nearby feral colonies that would be the most likely local sources of varroa reinfestation. I would point to Wyatt Mangum's work as the basis for the whole "varroa reinfestation" problem, as he did a meticulous job of data collection. I think he published in ABJ, but he may have only done presentations on this. The general pattern here would be varroa crash of a feral colony, which is robbed out by a managed hive as it weakens, and thereby infests the managed colony. The same thing could happen in reverse, with feral colonies robbing managed ones, and thereby getting infested. Lather, rinse, repeat. > If some do survive then the Island would repopulate with > mite tolerant bees from the Feral. This assumes several things: a) That "varroa resistance" exists as a latent trait at all, which is a highly speculative assumption, given zero confirmed cases of this in the past 20 years of varroa on the mainland US, and focused efforts by mutiple breeders using every trick in the book. b) That a small population of feral colonies on an ISLAND, which just screams "limited genetic diversity", would somehow contain the gotta-be-rare genetics required to make (a) come true. This assumption seems to be at the far edge of "Mission Implausible", and slightly into the realm of "Surely You Must Be Joking". c) That the process of allowing varroa to kill off "unfit" colonies would complete before the varroa spread to the other islands, which is nothing more than wishful thinking. Given that one group of on-island beekeepers would be forced to kill off a significant faction of their hives every year, and that the queen producers on the other island(s) would not enjoy even a slightly smaller risk exposure as a result, I think it would be a race between the two groups to see who could form a bigger mob quicker to beseige the office of the state official who approved any such plan. > I still think it would be best for experimental reasons, > is to eradicate the beekeeper I agree. After all, what's one beekeeper, more or less in the grand scheme of things? But let's start with Keith Malone, who proposed this approach. :) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:51:51 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, > I agree. After all, what's one beekeeper, more or less in > the grand scheme of things? But let's start with Keith > Malone, who proposed this approach. :) > I agree, I will be the first to quit and self eradicate with or without you. It is done, I am finished with all the discord present in beekeepers and beekeeping. > a) That "varroa resistance" exists as a latent trait at all, > which is a highly speculative assumption, given zero > confirmed cases of this in the past 20 years of varroa > on the mainland US, and focused efforts by mutiple > breeders using every trick in the book. > AHB, and there are others. You only speak of man doing the picking and not the letting of nature taking its own course. Man messed it up but maybe man can not fix its own debotchery. Keith Malone ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:53:56 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? In-Reply-To: <751F8D77-5FA5-434E-8AB0-88CEBE38FE58@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> a) That "varroa resistance" exists as a latent trait at all, >> which is a highly speculative assumption, given zero >> confirmed cases of this in the past 20 years of varroa >> on the mainland US, and focused efforts by multiple >> breeders using every trick in the book. >> > AHB, and there are others. Now, if my choices are between AHB and varroa, I'll stick with the varroa if its all the same to you. I doubt if Hawaii will allow anyone to introduce AHB into the islands, not matter what the claims made. > You only speak of man doing the picking and not the > letting of nature taking its own course. I considered the scenario with care, and pointed out the very basic problem inherent in the case at hand - the limited pool of genetic diversity on the island at issue. For "nature to take its own course", there must be enough "nature" for it to be able to diverge from the course set by man, and truly take its "own course". > Man messed it up but maybe man can not fix its > own debotchery. I agree that if not for man and his pesky habit of "Trade", neither varroa nor AHB would be in the Western hemisphere at all, but then, neither would be the current "best bet" source of exactly the genetics that might help bees combat varroa, the "Russian" breed of bees. But what "others"? Beside AHB, and how might these "others" have evaded detection, despite the many people looking so hard? And how would any of these "others" have been introduced to a very small island with few beekeepers? Be specific and detailed in your list. I really want to know where you think these traits are, as I don't see them out there, moreso in a limited genetic pool like an island. jim ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 07:26:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/11/2007 13:14:29 GMT Standard Time, rosinbio@GMAIL.COM writes: He proposed that keeping the bees in closed hives for the many hours often required to transport them, may have a detrimental effect by interfering with the bee's ability to control the temperature inside the hive. If such an effect exists at all, it certainly would not be "infective. It might be infective if the inability to defecate outside the hive whilst shut in multiplied Nosema (A or C) at a season where normally it would diminish. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:39:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: wanting to modify double screen board Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >The colonies can then be run on separately or re-united if that would be >more advantageous. You will have got rid of a high proportion of the mites at a >cost of 2 frames of brood; drawn new brood combs; re-queened; obtained the >extra bees from running 2 queens for a while, and possibly gained an extra >super of honey while the foundation in the brood box was being drawn. Chris, Thanks very much for the reply. That sounds almost exactly like what I'd like to achieve (at least as one option). The difficulty I see is in the timing and the way things get divided up. When would something like the above take place? As a swarm prevention measure it seems it would have to take place before the honey flow, which in my part of the world means it would have to take place when lows are in the 30s and 40s with occasional freezing temperatures. If I separate all that brood from the majority of the bees, it might very well get chilled, and that's probably the most valuable generation of bees of the whole year, i.e. that's the generation that makes my main honey crop. On the other hand, if I put more bees with the brood, then the remaining hive with the laying queen won't draw much comb and there won't be the comb or the nurse bees for that queen to continue producing. I could almost just as well kill all my queens and let all my hive go broodless the month before the honey flow. Is there a way around this dilemma? The beekeepers that do employ similar methods in the UK, do they do this in the early spring? Is there less cold during the main swarm season in the UK? Does this kind of method simply require huge numbers of bees, where enough bees can be removed to care for 8 frames of brood and a full, strong colony still left behind, too? Can anyone envision a solution in a kind of double screen board that would stop the return migration of the mites, or am I chasing a practical impossibility? Thanks, Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:50:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: extent of CCD losses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Don't almonds and packages tell the most reliable stories >> about the broad impact of CCD? > >No. > >Its more complex than that. >Much more. Complicating the issue probably isn't the path to a reliable understanding of the big picture. I'm much more inclined to trust simple (easily understood), transparent facts to provide the most reliable generalizations. Those generalizations may not take us very deep, but I think they probably are our most reliable accounts of the big picture. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:10:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: tulip popular honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >It still seems strange that for many years we got tulip >poplar honey and now the bees don't touch it. I think the best answer to your questions is simply that bees (and even moreso the matrices of their interactions with plants, weather, land use, etc.) are so complicated that a lot of what they do can only appear strange to us. There is a lot that blooms at the same time as tulip-poplars, though. I'm amazed, especially at that time of year (I'm in the t-p region, too, western NC piedmont), how inconsistent (in terms of type) my crop is from year to year. There are black locusts, blackberries, white Dutch clover, blackgums, hollies, wild cherries, privett, persimmons, and more... all claimed as possible major honey sources by beekeepers I would generally trust. I would say my spring crops over the last four (not all consecutive) years in my most recent location and the last seven years altogether in NC t-p territory have all been dramatically different in character. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:12:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: The Vanishing of the Bees Trailer is finally UP -- please view! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/11/2007 13:54:50 GMT Standard Time, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes: keeping the bees in closed hives for the many hours often required to transport them, may have a detrimental effect Another detrimental effect might be enhanced transmission of viruses by direct contact (rubbing shoulders) as described by Bailey in that unnatural and stressed environment. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:38:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Varroa tolerant bee In-Reply-To: <001201c8220a$e9f4a1c0$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Varroa is not the problem. It is the virus. So you can keep Varroa levels low and call the bee Varroa tolerant, but, if KBV, IAPV or any of the other variants are there, with just a small added push (winter cluster, nutrition, dysentery, etc.), the combination of virus and Varroa will cause bee mortality. Tracheal mites were well studied by Norma Carriak (sp?) and it was not the mite that was the problem. It was what was also in the colony.Bees can handle high mite loads. Once the bees get the virus, they can spread it without any additional assist from the mites. It is not the exponential increase in mites but the increased spread of virus.So you can have high mite loads but no major losses (look at parts of Canada), or low mite loads (usually after treatment) with major loss (look at US commercial operations ). So any exercise in Hawaii may create a "Varroa Tolerant" bee but with no virus present, you are in a fool's paradise. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:17:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "carimona@GMAIL.COM" Subject: Re: nay-sayers perpetual Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit dinks have been around as long as there has been beekeepers. sure the reasons have changed over the last 2 decades and beekeeping is more complicated. poor queen mating - bigger problem in the last 5 yrs contaminated comb - have you used apistan or checkmite? EFB chalkbrood nosema AFB mites viruses its up to you the beek to figure out whats wrong. dinks in the spring are not a sign of CCD. unless you're claiming that your bees flew the coop during winter. nosema or tracheal can leave a dink cluster after winter. you keep crying wolf about CCD - you got a story of a decent hive one day and nothing but brood and a small cluster a short time later? I'm not talking after 5 months of winter either. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:49:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "carimona@GMAIL.COM" Subject: OA approval status Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit what ever happened to getting approval for the legal use of OA in hives to treat varroa in the US? the last I heard here was that training materials were being made and certification was near. I think that was in 2006 we had that discussion here. ABF if I recall was leading the way? anyone know what the status is? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 11:34:30 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Varroa tolerant bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Once the bees get the virus, they can spread it without any additional > assist from the mites. It is not the exponential increase in mites but > the increased spread of virus. So you can have high mite loads but no > major losses (look at parts of Canada), or low mite loads (usually after > treatment) with major loss (look at US commercial operations ). Who told you that? Here's two things that may change the way you look at bee viruses spread within a colony. First, colonies that look fine tends to carry low virus levels. These "inapparent infections" are seemingly universal. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=535170 Second, there is a direct, and compelling correlation between the number of mites in a cell at the same time, each trying to reproduce, and the number of viruses transmitted between the bee pupae and the mites. Judy Chen showed this clearly in her work where she looked at specific viruses in individual bees and individual mites added by hand to individual cells. (I don't have a handy copy to verify, but I think that the paper with this data was "Horizontal and vertical transmission of viruses in the honey bee, Apis mellifera" (Judy Chen, Jay Evans, Mark Feldlaufer) in the "Journal of Invertebrate Pathology". Her work showed clearly that mites became unwitting virus carriers only after feeding on bees, and that with more mites per cell, the odds of the bee pupae and the mites transmitting one or more viruses between them went up in direct correlation with the number of mites per cell. So it is exactly "the exponential increase in mites" that CAUSES "the increased spread of virus". So, we have firm evidence that: a) Bees can not just tolerate, but thrive while carrying viruses among their population, and that these viruses remain at low levels, remain "undetectable" in terms of overt symptoms. b) That these viruses are NOT transmitted within the colony at any sort of rate that would be called an "increased spread of virus" by the bees themselves without a significant varroa load. c) That once one has a significant varroa load, one DOES get an "increased spread of virus" . Mites certainly can and do show up on a drifting forager carrying multiple viruses, but the mite picked up all these viruses from bees in a hive with a high varroa load, and hence, multiple viruses at high levels. If, as you claimed, bees could "spread it [a virus] without any additional assist from the mites", then hives would be dying with things like DWV and ABPV at random, regardless of mite level, which does not happen. If, as you claimed, bees could spread any of these bee viruses, they would be spread more in late spring and early summer, when bee populations peak. Late summer and fall is when one can use casual naked-eye inspections to detect things like DWV, which also underscores varroa's role in spreading the viruses, as this is when varroa populations peak. So, while you are correct when you said "Varroa is not the problem. It is the virus.", the lack of a set of anti-viral tools forces us to focus on the mite end of the problem. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:32:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: CCD, Almond Pollination, Bee Shortage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>i'd disagree with your comment that beekeepers on this list disagree. most of the people on this list who are most vocal insisting that CCD is this big deal don't even keep bees anymore. I don't know about this. You may be right about who keeps bees and who doesn't but there have been disagreements about the EXTENT of CCD. >>while it did afflict a small number of beeks its pretty safe to say that the media version is pretty much a hoax as they make it out like the sky is falling. Without good statistics, the real extent of CCD is anybody's guess. I certainly don't know although I don't know of anyone personally who has it. >>liberal tree hugging types worried about GMO's and global warming. On the other hand, everyone should be concerned about GMOs. If folks were not concerned, Gerber would have removed GMOs from baby food. And Bill T. :)) would not be an organic gardener despite his claim GMOs are perfectly safe for you. >>many with no science background at all. I'd argue one with no science background can have common sense and see through the facts in a rational way. The problem is not judgement or analysis but getting repeatable and reproducable facts without pseudo-scientific bias due to a compromising sponsor. >>of course the bees MUST be disappearing as the world is coming to a tipping point of environmental crisis. The increasing deserts worldwide and diminishing water in US west and southwest are evidence enough of climate change. I am one of those concerned. >>for a real life wake up slap to the face just wait til the 2007 honey crop report comes out. I had a record crop in 2007. The trend elsewhere may be distorted by a momentary spike in a given year. >>what i hear is it will be close to 2006 production. so how did we pull that off with an apocalyptic bee loss of histrorical proportions? Good point. Playing the devil's advocate, I'd say a low level CCD - I assume it be out there - could bloom without notice and cause a crisis. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:20:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is as if they are not aware that feral colonies exist. Yes, this oversight is amazing, and makes the rest of the plan a complete waste of money. Rather, if they studied the experience of varroa epidemiology, they might see that varroa could easily self destruct, if beekeepers didn't repopulate the feral population from managed hives. The incredible mite immigration into feral colonies as their neighbors crash completely overwhelms any colonies having resistance traits. Adrian Wenner's experience demonstrated that varroa can be used as a weapon for its own suicide. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:29:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Keith, You asked about islands being used for mite resistance experimentation. The best reported is the island of Gotland in the Baltic sea. I come across references to various other island breeding experiments, but haven't written them down, sorry. Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:39:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: OA approval status MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >what ever happened to getting approval for the legal use of OA in hives to >treat varroa in the US? I spoke with Dr Marion Ellis last week. He was the lead man on doing the research for approval. He was curious himself as to why it's not registered yet. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:45:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Island Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian Wenner wrote: > In an experiment on Santa Cruz Island off the coast of Santa Barbara, we found that all colonies survived the introduction of varroa a good two years with no treatment. In the third year, colony demise occurred quite rapidly on the island. A few of the monitored colonies survived that year, but by the beginning of the fourth year all monitored colonies had perished. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:16:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: nay-sayers perpetual Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >you keep crying wolf about CCD - you got a story of a decent hive one day and nothing but brood >and a small cluster a short time later? I'm not talking after 5 months of winter either. And this is why its barely worth writting here Here I've been called a liar (by implication) by someone who is barely literate I suggest you reread my post and PAY ATTENTION The 'search the archives' link is also useful Since O so many have come out of the closet search on FROM: my name AND 2007 In nearly 30 years I've never seen anything quite like this past summer I'm not one to wish people ill, but there are some that I STRONGLY wish had personal experience Fortunately I get the feeling that the virulence is dropping I really wish I understood how this happens Jim?? any thoughts? dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:29:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Bee Trailer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe it's time for Monsanto, Dupont & John Deere to start working on a documentary film that shows uncensored footage of what's really happening with pollinators and other wildlife in the GMO crop monocultures of the USA. Maybe it's time they show the public that industrialized ag landscapes like these in the upper Midwest: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/trud.jpg are actually teaming with nectar feeding insects and pollinators: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/true.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/syr3.jpg http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/dybeea.jpg The flowering weeds surrounding GMO crops set lots of seed: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/pods.jpg which is further evidence that native pollinators are abundant. Dragonflies are abundant as well: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/drag.jpg In fact, just keeping your car windshield clean of flying insects in the GMO crop growing regions is a challenege: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/windshield.jpg Other wildlife that can be found around GMO crops include Frogs: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/frogb.jpg In the photo above frogs were so abundant I estimated the density to be one frog per two square yards of GMO crop margin. There are Snakes as well: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/snake.jpg Racoons: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/racoon.jpg Birds: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/birds.jpg And much more. Sometimes the margins of GMO crops are State designated game refuge habitats: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/game.jpg Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 16:13:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: wanting to modify double screen board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/11/2007 13:55:31 GMT Standard Time, abejero@JUNO.COM writes: When would something like the above take place? I know nothing of your climate..We don't have climate so much as weather. Logically the earliest time to do it would be when you see the first drones flying; the latest, when you hear of the first swarm (preferably somebody else's). Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:38:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: nay-sayers perpetual Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Fortunately I get the feeling that the virulence is dropping Does that mean you have the feeling that CCD isn't going to be a from-here- on-out problem but rather something that gets filed in the history books under 2006/07? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:48:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Varroa tolerant bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >or low mite loads (usually after >treatment) with major loss (look at US commercial operations ). I suspect the leading explanation of the above circumstance is treatment that comes too late and/or hard side effects from the treatments themselves. Tens of thousands of malformed bees with deformed wings, for instance, aren't going to get a colony through the winter even if every last mite in the hive has been killed. The mites are still to blame. I suspect treatments/mite manipulations that don't take care of the mite problem a full two to three months before hives go broodless (or near broodless) lead to a lot of "major losses" with "low mite loads." ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:57:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: nay-sayers perpetual Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >.Does that mean you have the feeling that CCD isn't going to be a from-here- >on-out problem but rather something that gets filed in the history books >under 2006/07? Yes, until the next time around This is just a guess, I hope I'm right I wouldn't wish this on any other BK and I feel this year has been a large waste of time & effort dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:17:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Bees & Migration for Pollenation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade wrote: ... keeping the bees in closed hives for the many hours often required to transport them, may have a detrimental effect ..... It might be infective if the inability to defecate outside the hive whilst shut in multiplied Nosema (A or C) . Temperature would have more effect on the transportation of bees than time. Most of the bees are transported from one site to the next within a 48 hour time period. Those who do the transporting please correct me if I am wrong. In any event, being sequestered to the hive for the short period of time that the transportation requires would not suffice to create a hardship due to lack of flying time. The time period would be a lot less than experienced in the winters up north. Mike --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:02:50 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? In-Reply-To: <028b01c82a08$85a8db40$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Randy, < I come across references to various other island breeding experiments, but haven't written them down, sorry. < http://esa.confex.com/esa/2005/techprogram/paper_22428.htm Here is an interesting one in which the supposed AHB strain of bee (I think it just well may have been only the feral strain of bee that already was originally there to begin with, being feral that bounced back from near crash) bred themselves gentle. Not you Randy, but I think there is some sweet possibilities for honeybee genetics but there are some hardheaded folks out there who seem to refuse to even entertain the idea that it can happen, but it can happen even with the loathed and feared AHB. For that matter the loathed and feared German Brown Bee (Apis mellifera mellifera), thought by some to be as fierce as the AHB of today being "mean and nasty". Thanks Randy for replying. The "Mean and Nasty", Keith Malone ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:07:39 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: extent of CCD losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There are some who say that the symptoms are unique, > but they are not. This statement evinces a lack of understanding of the by now, well-known symptoms unique to CCD. > The symptoms have been seen with mites, nutrition and > combinations of factors By who? Where? When? I am sure that the scientific community would be interested in hearing this, if it is anything other than a deliberate attempt to offer a generalization of prior "disappearing disease" events as somehow similar to CCD symptoms. I just sat in on an enjoyable talk by Dewey Carron (UDE) on Saturday where he discussed the lack of success in attempts to recreate CCD-like symptoms when "stressing" bees in various ways, including attempts to simulate truck transport, with bees placed in cages, subjected to heat and dehydration for extended periods. > by those who see thousands of colonies from many different > organizations yearly. They have been seen for years. Well that's good to hear! Please, list some names and contact info, so that all the people working nights and weekends on CCD can take advantage of these first-hand accounts. > Complicating the issue probably isn't the path to a reliable > understanding of the big picture. Rather than "complicating the issue", I was merely pointing out that your suggested "key leading indicators" (almond pollination and package availability) are inherently TRAILING indicators, rather than indicators with any predictive or tracking value. First, only after every other possible option has been exhausted will there be a pollination contract that goes unfilled. Hives can be borrowed or "rented", contracts can be re-juggled to admit a new player, and so on. Second, only when a larger beekeeper cannot make splits will he pay the higher cost of packages. A package shortage would certainly follow a widespread fall or winter die-off of hobbyist colonies, but not in larger operations, who are used to buying only queens or queen cells. Regardless, it does not reflect what is happening now. I'm intrigued that we have a small but very vocal minority who want to deny the plight of their collogues simply because they have not seen any cases with their own eyes. Do you think everyone involved is lying, that the photos are faked, that there is some sort of widespread conspiracy to get funding for research work that is not needed on a problem that does not exist? What would anyone gain from such a conspiracy? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:10:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Mission Impossible? Mission Improbable? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think there is some sweet possibilities for honeybee genetics HI Keith, I recently heard Dr Marion Ellis speak of his summer in France, working with an apiary of A.m.m. that have not had mite treatment for 8 years. They display strong VSH. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:53:38 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Hive Registration In-Reply-To: <5CBBAAA8-CCEB-4510-8B1F-622FBA307A40@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How many areas (City, county and/or state) require registering hives? Are there per hive fees? Per apiary? Thanks, Howard in Hawaii ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:01:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: extent of CCD losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Do you think > everyone involved is lying, that the photos are faked, that > there is some sort of widespread conspiracy to get funding for > research work > What would anyone gain from such a conspiracy? Funding = papers published = academic career advancement Example: In 1999 an ASSISTANT entomology professor at Cornell made headlines around the world over an issue that ultimately turned out to be much ado about nothing: http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/May99/Butterflies.bpf.html These alarming headlines generated SIX figure research grants. Five years later that same assistant professor had advanced to FULL professor. Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:21:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: extent of CCD losses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Rather than "complicating the issue", I was merely pointing out You said you favored a more complex, a much more complex analysis of the situation, implying that the complete absence of unusual pressure in almonds or on packages (on supply or, in the case of packages, also on demand) was misleadingly oversimplified. I think it's absurd to discount two of the very biggest aggregate indicators when looking for the aggregate story. >that your suggested "key leading indicators" (almond pollination >and package availability) are inherently TRAILING indicators, >rather than indicators with any predictive or tracking value. You're absolutely right that they're inherently "trailing" indicators, and I believe that's what this discussion has been about: how badly overblown was the "trailing" reporting on CCD? >Regardless, it does not reflect >what is happening now. Not exactly, but beekeepers' fears about the future threat of CCD are all viewed in the light of what CCD has done to beekeepers in the past. >I'm intrigued that we have a small but very vocal minority who >want to deny the plight of their collogues simply because they >have not seen any cases with their own eyes. Do you think >everyone involved is lying, that the photos are faked, that >there is some sort of widespread conspiracy to get funding for >research work that is not needed on a problem that does not >exist? As for me, I'm not denying the existence of CCD at all; I would, however, argue with anyone that wanted to insist that overall losses from CCD last year (06/07) were clearly, beyond all reasonable margins of error, 2+% on aggregate. The issue I've been addressing is the overall extent of CCD. It's not that people are lying (although plenty of beekeepers, especially of the like I mostly talk to, wouldn't know CCD from a hole in the ground -- even then I haven't heard any more stories of holes in the ground than usual) or that photos are faked. The point is that a thousand perfectly true anecdotes don't reliably prove the EXTENT of the damage CCD did last year. What's your conspiracy theory on why I'm questioning the extent of CCD? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 05:50:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Study: Honey Has 'Valuable Therapeutic Role' in Wound Care MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Study: Honey Has 'Valuable Therapeutic Role' in Wound Care Antibacterial Honey(Medihoney'): in-vitro Activity Against Clinical Isolates of MRSA, VRE, and Other Multiresistant Gram-negative Organisms Including Pseudomonas aeruginosa Narelle May George; Keith F. Cutting , Wounds, Volume 19 - Issue 9 - September 2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/11/study-honey-has-valuable-therapeutic.html The clinical use of honey has received increasing interest in recent years, particularly its use as a topical antibacterial dressing.Results thus far are extremely encouraging, and demonstrate that honey is effective against a broad range of microorganisms, including multiresistant strains. This in-vitro study complements the work of others and focuses on the impact that a standardized honey can have on multiresistant bacteria that are regularly found in wounds and are responsible for increased morbidity… The findings of the present study add to the body of evidence and clearly demonstrate that honey has a valuable therapeutic role to play in wound care, often where modern approaches have failed… Book Review - 'Honey: A Modern Wound Management Product' Honey: A Modern Wound Management Product Edited by RJ White, RA Cooper, P Molan Wounds - ISSN: 1044-7946 - Volume 19 - Issue 9 - September 2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/11/book-review-honey-modern-wound.html Honey:A Modern Wound Management Product is a timely addition to the knowledge base that concentrates on the use of honey in modern wound management. Richard White, Rose Cooper, and Peter Molan-all experts in their respective fields, have made invaluable contributions to this text. Published by Advancis Medical in 2005, this is the only book available that is dedicated to this particular wound treatment modality.The book comprises 10 insightful chapters with contributions from 9 additional authors.This well-organized text is enjoyable to read and features photographs, flow charts, and algorithms.The book is also unique in that the contributors are a multidisciplinary group and hail from across the globe... Honey: A Modern Wound Management Product is suited to both specialist and generalist practitioners or for anyone interested in gaining a greater understanding of the role of honey in wound management.The rapid evolution in wound healing research, and the continued publication of in-vitro and in-vivo studies that involve honey substantiate the fact that although such materials were published in 2005, the literature will require an update within 5 years. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:10:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Hive Registration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How many areas (City, county and/or state) require registering hives? Are there per hive fees? Per apiary? In West Virginia its just a requirement to registrar. No fees at all. But registrar people have many benefits. Free medications when available, cost sharing on packages and feed. Russ Dean webmaster _West Virginia Beekeepers Association_ (http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/) ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:16:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Fact or fiction? In-Reply-To: <473F0344.2000000@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote (and many have opined), "There are some who say that the symptoms are unique, but they are not. The symptoms have been seen with mites, nutrition and combinations of factors by those who see thousands of colonies from many different organizations yearly. They have been seen for years." I too over the weekend attended the event to which Jim Fischer referred, where Dr. Dewey Caron stated emphatically that in his 40 year career he has seen nothing like a hive that exhibited "classic" CCD symptoms. I am paraphrasing what Dewey said, not quoting precisely. It is my opinion that Dewey's expertise is about as qualified as it gets. I have seen a LOT of speculation regarding CCD on this list. I cannot speak to the validity of the discussions regarding whether CCD is or is not the phenomenon it has been made to be in the press, I can but read what contributors claim and decide whether I accept (or not) the claims. And I have to admit that I am more inclined to accept the assertions put forth by those who I see attending local, state, regional and national meetings. Personally I try to get to as many of the presentations as my schedule and wallet allows. Secondly, I tend to base my acceptance (or not) of authors' assertions based upon their beekeeping credentials. If I know assertions are being made by someone who has been successfully keeping bees for more than a few years, I am inclined to accept said assertions more than I am inclined to weigh assertions made by contributors who are new on this list, whom I've never seen at meetings, and of whom I have no idea if they keep a few or many hives and have been doing so for few or many years. There have been many assertions lately that CCD is an unsubstantiated flash in the pan, portrayed as more of a California wildfire by the media. I have also seen assertions that commercial/migratory beekeeping is the bane of the industry, dragging the hobbiest/sideliner/static community down with them. My personal observation is that those who are making such claims are unknown to me, that I have no idea of the magnitude of their beekeeping operation/experience/expertise and that I have not met these authors at meetings I attend. And I readily admit that my knowledge or lack thereof of a contributior in no way affects the validity or lack thereof of their contribution, but it does impact how willing I am or am not to accept and/or consider their contribution. I was at a national meeting two years ago, in a large auditorium where a gentleman made a claim that the Russian Bee may be the Varroa tolerant bee that the industry is looking for. His claims were far more glowing than I have written here, but the claims aren't germane to point I am trying to make. When he made his claims from the back of the auditorium, I queried from the front of the auditorium, "Who is the gentleman making these assertions and what are his beekeeping credentials?" I think the man was a little taken aback by my query, but he gave his name and credentials, and I put a lot more weight into the statement he just made than I had only moments before when I thought the Russian praises were being sung by a newbie who had a positive season with a few hives of unknown Russian descent. Afterwards I had the pleasure of meeting Carl Webb. So where I'm going with this is, the assertions that CCD is an overblown phenomenon and the assertions that migratory beekeeping is the bane of the industry make me wonder what are the beekeeping credentials of those making the claims? I am not challenging the rights of anyone to their own opinion, but the assertions being made are contrary to what I am being told at meetings I attend where speakers' credentials most likely qualify their assertions, a fortiori, than the assertions being made on BEE-L. Remember, this is a list for informed discussion, not fervent opinions. Aaron Morris - thinking this will open a can of worms. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:17:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Bee strategy helps servers run more sweetly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.kurzweilai.net/news/frame.html?main=/news/news_single.html?id%3D7505 -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:32:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Varroa tolerant bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/11/2007 15:17:46 GMT Standard Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: <> I wonder whether all bees are equally susceptible to viruses. Last year I had a major influx of mites from other people's collapsing hives, and as a result had an outbreak of DWV. One hive had it much worse than other hives of the same strain right next to it, and promptly died out. This makes me wonder about virus resistance; has any work been done on possible variations in susceptibility? Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:55:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Hive Registration In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:10 AM 11/19/2007, you wrote: > >How many areas (City, county and/or state) require registering hives? Are >there per hive fees? Per apiary? Normally it's the state that does this. Requirements, fees and benefits vary by state, there is no standard. In Ohio each apiary must be registered and there is a $5 fee per location regardless of number of hives. I don't know of any source that has the requirements for all states listed. You'll probably have to check out each state individually. Some cities and towns have some beekeeping laws, but it's not as common and there is no standard here as well. I'm not aware of any that require registration. Most are an attempt to either impose reasonable restrictions, or to just eliminate bees because of the perceived hazard (ignoring the fact that sidewalks are far more deadly.) -Tim ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:32:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Hive Registration In-Reply-To: <20071119055326.852EB14EEB02@ip-208-109-232-36.ip.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Howard McGinnis wrote: How many areas (City, county and/or state) require registering hives? Are there per hive fees? Per apiary? Howard in Hawaii Alabama urges all of its beekeepers to register their hives with the state. Some don't, but usually they contribute to some of our problems. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:02:08 -0600 Reply-To: whalen-pedersen@mchsi.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "E. Whalen-Pedersen" Subject: Re: Hive Registration In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ Dean wrote: > > How many areas (City, county and/or state) require registering hives? Are > there per hive fees? Per apiary? > Here in Illinois there is no fee for registration but registration of hives is required annually under state law. We do have an Apiary Inspection program and a request for inspection carries no fee. There are also random inspections under the program throughout the year. The location of hives is left up to the individual. There are varying ordinances in communities throughout the state but there are so very few are even prohibitive in nature. Erik ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:19:23 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Varroa tolerant bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley > I wonder whether all bees are equally susceptible to viruses. I am sure that they are not. Sacbrood is caused by a virus, but can easily be cured by requeening. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:20:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Hive Registration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This summer an amendment was tacked on the existing apiary inspection law in NY State, making registration of bee hives mandatory. It is unclear if, how, or even why this will be enforced. With all the problems they have already, do beekeepers really need state agencies telling them what to do? Personally, I support the interstate movement of bee hives. It is a longstanding tradition in this country, as well as most others where beekeepers have the resources to migrate. The fact that bee laws vary from state to state seems self-serving and not helpful. There is an awful lot of talk these days by very uniformed people who are trying to blame the disappearance of bee populations on modern agriculture and especially moving bees on trucks. In my opinion, the latter is nonsense. Imidacloprid, on the other hand, has become far more ubiquitous than I ever dreamed. I just learned that it is routinely rubbed on cats and dogs to kill fleas. > The acute toxicity of imidacloprid varies widely among bird species. It is 'highly toxic' to certain species including house sparrow, Japanese quails, canaries and pigeons. Based on these tests, the ecological effects branch of the US EPA concluded that their 'levels of concern' were exceeded for both non-endangered and endangered songbirds. Imidacloprid causes abnormal behavior such as lack of coordination, lack of responsiveness and an inability to fly, even in birds for which it is not highly toxic, such as mallards. www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/imidaclo.htm pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:49:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Propolis to Make Jump from Health to Food Preservative? / Imported Bees Not Source of Virus Associated with Colony Collapse Disorder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Propolis to Make Jump from Health to Food Preservative? By Stephen Daniells, FoodNavigator-USA http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/11/propolis-to-make-jump-from-health-to.html Propolis, the waxy resin collected by honeybees and currently marketed for its health benefits, could also find use as a natural food preservative, suggests new research… "It may be concluded that, the ethanolic extract of propolis tested, in the performed experimental conditions may successfully inhibit the E. coli development in vitro, at safe levels for human consumption and, consequently, they could be useful as ground fresh beef natural preserver or as unspecific antibacterial food preserver," wrote lead author Enzo Tosi in the journal Food Chemistry. Tosi and his co-workers from Argentina's National University if Technology looked at the effect of Argentinian propolis extracts against Ecoli, and thereby as a preservative for foods. "Most propolis components are natural constituents of food and recognized as safe substances," added Tosi… Imported Bees Not Source of Virus Associated with Colony Collapse Disorder By Kim Kaplan, U.S. Fed News, 11/19/2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/11/imported-bees-not-source-of-virus.html BELTSVILLE, Md., Nov. 19-Scientists from the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Agricultural Research Service (ARS) have found that the Israeli acute paralysis virus (IAPV), a virus recently shown to be associated with Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) of honey bees, has been in the United States since at least 2002, according to a note published in the American Bee Journal. Research entomologists Yanping (Judy) Chen and Jay D. Evans, both with the ARS Bee Research Laboratory here, conducted a detailed genetic screening of several hundred honey bees that had been collected between 2002 and 2007 from colonies in Maryland, Pennsylvania, California and Israel. "Our study shows that, without question, IAPV has been in this country since at least 2002," said Chen. "This work challenges the idea that IAPV is a recent introduction from Australia."… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:48:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Who was that masked man? In-Reply-To: <20071115165118.7C1DD14F01A2@ip-208-109-232-36.ip.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron's post began with a quote from my post and proceeded to slash and burn from there. I sent him an email and he assured me that I was not the object of his post, even though it was difficult for me to see that, since I was the only one referred to by name. I do agree with him that unless you know the background of a poster, you do have to maintain a bit of skepticism as to the authenticity of their observations. After you know more about them you can color your judgment. So. like St. Paul, here are my particulars and from that you can judge the content of my post. I do not measure up to one of Aaron's criteria, which is attendance at National meetings, unless you give me credit for running the registration for two EAS meetings (ten years apart) in Maine, and I do attend our State Annual Meeting. I have published several times in Gleanings (ABJ stole one of my articles in our State newsletter, so there also); was the State point of contact for all thing bees for about 10 years; taught bees schools; editor of the State newsletter for seven years; State Beekeeper of the Year; beekeeping for over 15 years, and posted here on the BeeL for longer than most all here. I have worked with the State Apiarist in the field, mainly as an observer, inspecting commercial, migratory, and hobby beekeepers.I am a "disciple" of George Imire and Tony Jadczak both of whom taught me the art of successful beekeeping. I am a hobby beekeeper but with a scientific bent mainly because of my Masters of Science in Chemistry. I cannot and never will suggest I know more about the nuts and bolts of beekeeping compared to someone like Bob Harrison, who lives it. For me, on this list, it is a scientific interest, while in my backyard, it is for pollination. I do not need many hives and wife does not like honey. Because of the scientific part, I keep in touch with several people and talk over things like CCD and other problems in the industry. I take the "Informed Discussion" of our list seriously. Which brings me to a problem, and one which has bothered me with every post I have made on the subject of CCD. I know too much and by speaking I do come close to violating confidences. It is difficult, when you comment on something, to differentiate between your own views and what has been told to you, especially when you agree. So I am going to shut up on this subject except for generalities and questions. I will keep other's observations out of the discussion since I agree that, from a scientific point of view, unless I can directly attribute my sources, it is unscientific. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:09:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Hive Registration Comments: To: Peter Borst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Peter: While dismissing those who “blame the disappearance of bee populations on modern agriculture and especially moving bees on trucks” as “nonsense,” Peter opines that “It is a longstanding tradition in this country, as well as most others where beekeepers have the resources to migrate.” Would you care to provide documents (peer-reviewed and printed) on this—- to wit that the tradition of migratory beekeeping in this country and else where has a longer history than stationery beekeeping in human history? Let's say that Americans brought bees to the new world in 1859, the very year when Darwin published his seminal book. So, let's start from that date to establish the benchmark. Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:20:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Hive Registration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yoon wrote: "... let's start from that date (1859) to establish the benchmark." I'm sure Peter will speak for himself, but the first thing that popped = into my head was, "Why start at 1859? Why not start with ancient Egypt = when hives were moved up and down the Nile?" And if you want to stick = to the continental US, post 1859, the first example I can think of is CC = Miller moving hives in horse drawn wagons. I am sure there are plenty = of other examples. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:15:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Hive Registration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>This summer an amendment was tacked on the existing apiary inspection law in NY State, making registration of bee hives mandatory. They should really first make the availability of a bee inspector a priority. My part of NY state has not had a bee inspector since John Moloney retired. >>...imidacloprid... is 'highly toxic' to certain species including house sparrow, Japanese quails... I keep Japanese quail for the eggs. I hope the feed I buy for them is free of imidacloprid... >>Imidacloprid causes abnormal behavior such as lack of coordination, lack of responsiveness and an inability to fly... Have they studied what it does in humans?? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:54:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Aaron, Thank you for sharing your excellent observations! As I see it, whether or not collapses should be attributed to CCD specifically is of minor importance, if it distracts from the fact that a number of beekeepers worldwide are experiencing losses far above the "normal." I talk to these guys, or correspond with them, and feel the frustration of experienced beekeepers watching their operations collapse. Just last night, as we were hauling a couple of truckloads of bees home, a California commercial beekeeper called to share the extensive collapses that he and several of his fellows were experiencing these past weeks. I'm writing this before I head out to unload them, and I have little idea of what I'll see in my own boxes. I checked all these colonies closely a few weeks ago, and all appeared to be heavy and in good health, yet as I loaded them last night, some 5-10% felt like they had been robbed out. The extent of losses in France (2005-2006) is sobering--see http://www.api-connaissance-sanitaire.fr/mortalites%20colonies.htm --excerptedbelow. Note that these were small yards--not large commercial beekeepers. Randy Oliver % de mortalité de colonies dans certains ruchers du département Alpes-de-Haute-Provence 100 % (57/57) Aveyron 60 % (15/25) Cantal importante (sans données chiffrées) Deux-Sèvres 38 % (243/637) Dordogne 100 % (25/25) Haute-Garonne 100 % (57/57) Hérault 100 % (38/38) Indre 21 % (nombre de colonies non précisé) Loire 50 % (22/44) Lozère 1 93 % (29/31) Lozère 2 70 % (30/34) Puy-de-Dôme 91 % (21/23) Pyrénées Atlantiques 74 % (52/70) Hautes-Pyrénées 75 % (15/20) Sarthe 1 50 % (nombre de colonies non précisé) Sarthe 2 100 % (nombre de colonies non précisé) Vienne 40 % (30/75) Haute-Vienne 75 % (18/24) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:57:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Varroa tolerant bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This makes me wonder > about virus resistance; has any work been done on possible variations in > susceptibility? Hi Robert Ilam Sela documented bee resistance to IAPV, others have demonstrated that some mites are resistant to DWV, and do not transmit it to bees. I haven't heard of anyone doing specific breeding work, but I will be discussing this with certain breeder/researchers next week. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:58:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Hive Registration In-Reply-To: <20071119055326.852EB14EEB02@ip-208-109-232-36.ip.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To the best of my knowledge, Missouri has NO registration of hives. If it does, I'm horribly out of compliance, but if registration is mandated, I'll like remain out of compliance. We also have NO money for hive inspection and inspectors, so other than the gov't knowing where my bees are at or how many colonies I'm running, what good does registration do? Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:24:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Hive Registration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron: First of all, I should have spelled that “stationary,” and not “stationery.” My apologies for writing on the fly, for I felt frankly flabbergasted. Now, the reason why I set that arbitrary date was not to embarrass the original poster for the simple fact that when man used bees in prehistoric time, (I am trying to avoid the word “domesticated” here), he must have kept them stationary long enough to figure out the ways of the bees, probably longer than the migratory practice, which came at a later date, just as man had to figure out farming, first, long before he figured out monocrop-farming. I tend to think that there were migratory beekeepers, though not in modern scale, BEFORE monocroping; however, the seeming allegation that migratory beekeeping has a longer tradition than stationary beekeeping, even in America, needs to be verified. Also to be considered is what percentage of these beeks were migrating against how many non-migratory beeks? How does one judge “tradition” in the context of numbers or volumes of crop? Yoon ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:51:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Hive Registration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Montana has a very specific apiary registration law that is periodically reviewed and updated, and it is enforced. Basically, it sets a 3 mile limit (space between bee yards owned by different beekeepers). Registration is mandatory, there is a fee, and each site has to meet the registration guidelines as per distance to nearest neighbor, with some flexibility for landowners and hobby beekeepers. All sites have to be renewed each year, and each site has to be reported as to its geographical location (GPS preferred). Jerry ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:08:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Migratory beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yoon Sik Kim wrote: > Would you care to provide documents (peer-reviewed and printed) on this—- > to wit that the tradition of migratory beekeeping in this country and else > where has a longer history than stationery beekeeping in human history? > Yoon, You answered your question. Migratory beekeeping in the US goes back to the date bees were introduced to the Americas. I think what you want is - when did commercial pollination services start in the US. Bees have been moved by people since people figured out how to confine them to a vessel of their choosing, be it a log, pot, skep or whatever. So migratory beekeeping in history goes back to before there was history. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:15:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? In-Reply-To: <04c301c82b8d$93841870$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit randy oliver wrote: > Hi Aaron, > Thank you for sharing your excellent observations! > As I see it, whether or not collapses should be attributed to CCD > specifically is of minor importance, if it distracts from the fact > that a number of beekeepers worldwide are experiencing losses far > above the "normal." (snip) Amen. > The extent of losses in France (2005-2006) is sobering--see > http://www.api-connaissance-sanitaire.fr/mortalites%20colonies.htm > --excerptedbelow. Note that these were small yards--not large > commercial beekeepers. Interesting that these losses are well after imidacloprid was outlawed in France. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:49:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Barry_Digman?= Subject: Re: Hive Registration Comments: To: Howard McGinnis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New Mexico requires registration of commercial beehives depending on where the hives are and how many are in an apiary. If a beekeeper is north of I- 40 and has 15 or more colonies, they require you to register and pay a whopping $3.00 per location. If you are south of I-40 and have 25 or more colonies, registration is required. (In no case is a commercial beekeeper required to pay more than $200, regardless of locations or numbers). In 2006, the state registered 387 commercial apiary locations with 13,320 hives and 15 commercial beekeepers. We also have regulations for "organic" honey. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:45:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "carimona@GMAIL.COM" Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:16:26 -0500, Aaron Morris wrote: >So where I'm going with this is, the assertions that CCD is an overblown >phenomenon and the assertions that migratory beekeeping is the bane of >the industry make me wonder what are the beekeeping credentials of those >making the claims? I am not challenging the rights of anyone to their >own opinion, but the assertions being made are contrary to what I am >being told at meetings I attend where speakers' credentials most likely >qualify their assertions, a fortiori, than the assertions being made on >BEE-L. > >Remember, this is a list for informed discussion, not fervent opinions. > I maintain a sizable stationary operation and make my living full time with bees. I have many freinds and acquantances who are migratory beekeepers. I spend time between the West Coast and the Midwest. I have obviously been quite critical of the scope of the scope of CCD claims, reread my posts and I have never said CCD is not real (although Mr Fisher has claimed such about me). My issues are the extent and scope of the problem that is being published. This particular segment of the CCD topic EVERYONE is an expert and NO ONE has any definitive answers since the evidence is weak and or generated by a "consultant". What I see is that the research/consultant/media experts bunch are the most fervent and vocal in their insistance that CCD is this random wide ranging disorder. Aside from Mr Hackenburg and a few other beeks hit hard, few beeks are crying wolf. Mr Harrison has recently back that point up with his travel notes. Take for instance the current situation now in fall and early winter 2007, its starting to look like from my contacts that CCD was a flash in the pan in late 2006, any return cycle of CCD appears to be smaller then last year. Of course this could change quickly and I'm sure we all hope it was a flash in the pan. I do not see the evidence anywhere from my vantage point that this has widely affected the industry or a huge number of beekeepers. Unfortunately the printed "evidence" is weak and leaves much to speculate. I have seen few from the research/consultant/media experts group who were willing to step forward and acknowledge that the winter kill which unfolded in the north in spring of 2007 was NOT CCD. There are some though who were brave enough to go on record. From what I can determine there was not much of an attempt by that community to set the record straight that a dead out in spring is not the same as CCD. Some may have been happy to let that little fact blow by as the estimates ballooned beyond reality. To me this is an argument over the scope and extent of CCD not whether its a real affliction or not as Aaron implied. As far as migratory beekeeping is concerned, I believe my point about no contingency plan when the big one hits is valid. Poultry and livestock have protective measures in place for when and if Avian Flu or Hoof & mouth are discovered. Why should we not have a similar plan in place to protect the static hives which are clearly owned by the MAJORITY of beeks? Why do we let 1000-1400 beeks and a couple of hundred large almond ranchers decide whats best for beekeeping in the USA? This minority of people have too much power IMO and need to be reigned in. Its all about the money and I do not see descisons or policies evolving which are meant to consider the long term health of our honeybees. Aaron let me ask you as I assume you are a static beek from what I have read in your posts. IF you beleive that CCD is to be feared and your colonies are looking good as we speak. Would you mind if someone moves a couple of hundred hives nearby next May after they come back from almonds? Would you lose any sleep if you counted on your bees for your next mortgage payment? Would you be angry if your bees picked up CCD, SHB or some other new affliction next summer? Remember there is no way to prove that any new problems came from your new neighbors. Science is not going to be of much help now my friend when you're screwed and left cleaning up a mess you did not probaly even create. Would you cast a wary eye then towards the 100's of colonies near your static operation? Would you then beleive that something needs to change? Who has a right to keep clean and healthy bees without external interference? To me this thread of topics has become a policy debate, not a scientific discussion. Policy debates involve opinions. Policies shape industries, we need this discussion right now. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:50:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Hive Registration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yoon Sik Kim wrote: >however, the seeming allegation that migratory beekeeping has a longer tradition than stationary beekeeping, even in America, needs to be verified. I never said that. You completely misunderstood. I merely stated that migratory beekeeping has a longstanding tradition, and I seriously doubt that it is the cause of our current woes. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:08:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: migratory beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris wrote: > And if you want to stick to the continental US, post 1859, the first example I can think of is CC Miller moving hives in horse drawn wagons. I am sure there are plenty of other examples. Apropos migratory beekeeping: back in the 1970s and 1980s I knew lots of beekeepers who pollinated and moved their hives around from honeyflow to honeyflow. They had great looking bees and got huge honey crops. The price of honey was soft then, so it wasn't exactly a gold mine, but some did really well. Those same beekeepers are now having a hard time keeping their bees alive. What changed? Mites. We have not really got a handle on it. Nosema. No doubt it's contributing. But the one thing that didn't change: trucking bees. Bees have been trucked around big time since at least the 1940s. This is not the cause of current problems. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:09:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Hive Registration Comments: To: Peter Borst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: For the record, I thank you for shooting straight. Always, Yoon ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:45:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Migratory beekeeping mid 1800's In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yoon Sik Kim wrote: Aaron: (1) First of all, I should have spelled that “stationary,” (2) ....... man had to figure out farming, first, long before he figured out monocrop-farming. (3) I tend to think that there were migratory beekeepers, though not in modern scale, BEFORE monocroping; however, the seeming allegation that migratory beekeeping has a longer tradition than stationary beekeeping, even in America, needs to be verified. Also to be considered is what percentage of these beeks were migrating against how many non-migratory beeks? . . Short history lesson I'm sure everyone on this list knows. (1) Mid 1800's - A trip at this time was walking or, if well to do, on horseback or wagon/carriage. At any rate, the trips were usually less than ten miles and took most of a morning or most of an afternoon, usually both because these were round trips (no motels, you know). Extended families, for the most part, rarely moved more than fifteen to twenty miles from the old home place - in their life time. Travel was an ordeal, not normally a pleasure. Where does this place migratory beekeeping at the time? A very rare occurrence. (2) Most farming at this time was subsistence farming with a little extra crop production sometimes to bring extra money in. The presence of team drawn farm machinery was just emerging. Most farms grew everything the farm needed for its own needs. There was no conception of monocroping. (3) Most migratory beekeeping involved chasing one's own swarms through the countryside until it decided to land. Beekeeping was farming and farmers didn't move around unless they were headed west to new land. The "Tin Lizzy" made migratory beekeeping possible because it was almost impossible to use horses to go from one portion of the country to another (horses weren't fast enough nor were they cheap enough). Just my little two cents worth on the advent of migratory beekeeping in the U.S. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:00:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: Hive Registration In-Reply-To: <20071119055326.852EB14EEB02@ip-208-109-232-36.ip.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alabama Law requires that all beehives be registered. There are fees on a scale relative to the number of colonies. There are fines for non compliance. Alabama currently has 2 full time bee inspectors. Queen and package producers MUST be inspected and certified every year. Honey producers are inspected at random and average a minimum of one inspection every 2 years. Beekeepers can request an inspection and the inspectors react quickly. On request the inspectors will inspect any hives one is planning to buy which is great for new beekeepers buying established hives. See http://alabamabeekeepers.com/documents/State%20Registration.doc for fee structure or http://alabees.com/buzz.htm click on Alabama Law, Title 2, Chapter 14 for the section of Alabama law that applies to Alabama beekeeping. Bob Fanning North Alabama USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:58:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: Hive Registration In-Reply-To: <004201c82bea$aaba5920$0200a8c0@bob3> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My recent post on the same subject was meant to supplement the response by Mile Stoops and certainly not to contradict it. Bob Fanning North Alabama USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:47:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Hive Registration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tradition vs. Reality Peter: I did not mean to come off contentious, or worse belligerent, when I asked you to back up your opinions with facts. I apologize if I came off rough to you. I will do my best to maintain civility in the following discourse. Without any substantiation, nevertheless, statements such as migratory beekeeping has not caused any harm to beekeeping industry overall are just too broad, a sweeping generalization, indeed, particularly in the light of at least one article a list member had provided a while ago which attests to the contrary. In fact, you had asked the same member, claiming to the contrary to your position, to present hu’s (sic) hard data over and over. You would concur, I am sure, that you should be asked to present your data, as well. (I believe this was what Aaron was concerned about in his recent email: stop townhall-gossiping) Before I sweat my teeth, though, allow me to offer a working definition of “migratory beekeeping”: “A massive-scale, modern, hybrid beekeeping practice in which beekeepers move a huge number of colonies across the state line to serve the pollination needs for industrialized monocrops to profit solely from the pollination contract.” Fair enough? Please feel free to add, edit, revise, tear apart this definition since this is just my working definition for this particular discussion. But allow me to point out the gap in your opinion. On the one hand, you believe that migratory beekeeping should go on given its longstanding tradition here and elsewhere; on the other, you realize in the following the problems it is facing: “Those same beekeepers are now having a hard time keeping their bees alive. What changed? Mites. We have not really got a handle on it. Nosema. No doubt it's contributing. But the one thing that didn't change: trucking bees. Bees have been trucked around big time since at least the 1940s. This is not the cause of current problems.” Tradition is a great thing when the external variables remain steady. But the external variables never remain steady in nature “red in tooth and claw.”: mites, SHB, AHB, CCD, agricultural intensification through more toxic sprays, dwindling forage areas, imports of bees and honey in global trade, global warming, to just name a few. I have not even mentioned Cashmere and Israeli viruses. The tradition you speak of here lives forever in the past, frozen solid inside the picture-frame with a vintage pickup or wagon, because such tradition is no longer viable due to changes in the external reality. The variables in the good old days were much simpler than now; all they had to deal with were AFB, mites, and nosema; they were able to make up their loss via swarm-catching. Fast foreward into modern beekeeping. Facing these myriad variables, factors heretofore unknown to us, one must reexamine the viability of the old paradigm. Although I do not claim myself a seer, I am afraid that there will be time when migratory beekeeping will be regulated, particularly given all the stresses coming from eight directions to beekeeping and to bees themselves. Now I did not state “stopped” cold but regulated, deservingly so, due to the reasons many beekeepers on this list have expressed. Even as I type my thoughts, there is a war going on against tradition in the Pacific. It has been the Japanese tradition to catch and eat whales, a practice, they insist, that must continue, for it is their stinkin’ “tradition” to do so. But the reality is that there are only limited numbers of whales, particularly sperm whales, left in the world. Worse, due to their long baby-rearing cycles, nobody knows which number of whales represents that equilibrium, the sustainable number between eating them and letting them go. Let’s say there are only five sperm whales left in the world, but as the Japanese insist on their longstanding tradition, they have eaten all the five, effectively making those whales into dodo’s, once and for all. Or should we re-examine the tradition, this age-old practice that has failed to reflect the so many changes in reality? For my part, I’d say they should start eating anchovies since they have already finished with cods. Wishing every one a great turkey day, another longstanding tradition that has nearly wiped out the indigenous species via inbreeding the Perfect Standard, Yoon ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:14:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: The problem with CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I share Randy's position which is there is a problem in the beekeeping world. There is also a problem in the CCD world. As noted many times, CCD is not an identified pathogen, but an identified symptom. The work is in trying to attach something to the symptom. This is what happened with parasitic mite syndrome PMS, an acronym which ,for some reason, fell into disfavor). A symptom was discovered (in Maine) which looked like symptoms from bee viruses only seen in the lab (by Tony Jadczak), and confirmed by Beltsville researchers that it was virus (Dr S.). The symptoms reported then, were very much like CCD. CCD has been said to have unique symptoms never seen before. However, the main thrust of researchers in the Easter US is based on colonies near to Varroa collapse. Then you have the additional problem with different observations from Jerry's group compared to the eastern group and CCD becomes a little more difficult to pin down. Then the eastern group reports definitively (or maybe not so, depends on the press conference) that the answer has been found. (BTW, it still is definitive to some in that group.) Then add anomalies such as 60,000 colonies entering Maine every year from all around the country, and no CCD was found. But those same colonies in Florida have, according to some posts, rampant CCD. Nor has CCD spread to other beekeepers who reside full time in Maine or to those local commercial operations which move to Florida for the winter. CCD like symptoms have been seen in Maine by competent inspectors but were nutrition related. Some CCD almond colonies that sparked off the whole firestorm came from drought ridden parts of the US. Which brings us full circle, to Randy's point. The industry is in trouble. My personal opinion is that the problem is primarily Varroa and all else flows from that. Control Varroa and most all beekeepers do well. But some have low Varroa loads and have problems. I would check what they are using for miticides. There are many commercial operations which are using non-approved miticides and at doses that will insure pesticide resistance. Remember when Apistan lost its effectiveness and colonies crashed. Add proper, adequate nutrition and you go into the world of those who have few problems. So what might CCD be? The symptoms exist. It might be the decade (or more) recurring disappearing disease, magnified by the impact of Varroa. Or it could be a combination of mites, virus and nosema, the same combination that led to massive bee deaths long ago, but then the mite was Tracheal. So if you do not want CCD, IMO, have low mite loads from managed approved treatments (not from last minute treatments of unauthorized pesticides), good nutrition, and nosema controls. What the CCD team really needs is not just a group of University researchers but a good epidemiologist from the CDC to pin down the origins of the symptom. That might help separate the chaff from the wheat. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:34:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Commercial pollinators In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is always interesting to read these threads since they do fall into "Aaron's Rant" (I like the term since it sounds Biblical). The hobby beekeeper wants all commercial operations ended to save beekeeping as we know it, even though it means an end to some of the things they take for granted, plentiful seeds for their gardens (bees are trucked in for that too) and cheap food. Commercial operations are in difficulty, so why blame them when the problem is Varroa (IMO) and virus (and nosema?). They did not create the mite.Truth is, were there not a large commercial beekeeping industry, you would have very little money for Varroa research and hobby beekeeping would do just what it has done in my area, which is decrease to one solitary beekeeper. The native pollinator crowd would then have the wherewithal to outlaw honey bees as an invasive species, and don't think they would not do just that. End of beekeeping as we know it. So the commercial operations that some (and it is a small group) condemn, should be looked on as the savior of the small beekeeper since the commercial pollinators are the engine that drives the political and money machine to save our bees and make saving the honeybee a national priority. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:20:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Hive Registration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > statements such as migratory beekeeping has not caused any harm to beekeeping industry overall are just too broad, I agree. This is not a simple subject in any way, and far too complex for broad generalizations. On one hand, migratory beekeeping is no different than herding your sheep up to mountain pasture during the summer (which is exactly what I do with my bees, although I load them on a truck). It also allows "efficient" (although likely nonsustainable) monocrop agriculture, as per the almond industry. On the other hand, there are clearly competition and pathogen dispersal issues. A stationary beekeeper can have his honey crop "stolen" by a semi load of bees dropped nearby. This issue can be addressed by registration and spacing of apiaries, as in Montana. Another impact, since the advent of varroa, is rapid mite transfer from one operation to another. I received an email last night from a startup sideline operation. He had a very successful year in mite and disease control, and had happily looked forward to a good winter. Then his bees suddenly were overwhelmed by mites--a semiload of mite-infested colonies had been placed a half mile away from his yard. He has no legal options in Calif other than to move his home yard away, and to try to save his colonies with last-ditch treatments. The main impact of coast-to-coast movement of bees is in the epidemiology of pathogens. Indeed, a case could be made that due to geographic isolation, California could have remained mite- and beetle-free for many years, had it not been for the influx of out-of-state bees. Few bee pathogens can disperse across 5000 miles in a single year, unless assisted by 18 wheelers. This puts our entire industry in the same sorry state of infection within a year or two of the arrival of any novel pathogen. We do not get to enjoy the luxury of the benefit of a learning curve that would develop as a pathogen slowly dispersed on its own across the landscape. Similarly, new pathogen mutations, such as chemical resistant mites, or TM resistant AFB are rapidly spread. Another issue is that the constant redistribution of bee genetics via swarms and drones issuing from transported colonies prevents the development of locally-adapted stocks. Breeders who wish to control natural matings can have their plans completely disrupted by unseen drops of hundreds or thousands of colonies. I make the above assessments as a participant in migratory beekeeping, and state them merely as facts to be considered and addressed in discussion. Our current agricultural model would suffer without migratory beekeeping, and many of our largest beekeepers would not survive if they didn't move their colonies. Yet, the current model clearly has problems associated with it, some to the clear detriment of other beekeepers. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:14:42 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: migratory beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Peter Borst said "Bees have been trucked around big time since at least the 1940s. This is not the cause of current problems." Well...not quite true. If migratory beekeeping did not exist, the distribution of AFB resistant to Terramyacin, Trachael Mites, Varroa mites resistant to fluvalinate and coumaphous, Varroa mites, chalkbrood, CCD, small hive beetles and much more would have been *significantly* delayed here in the Northeast and perhaps even more significantly delayed in places such as California. The speed at which these pathogens and pests could naturally travel is far slower than the speed of 18 wheelers. Moreover, in the 'old days' a migratory beekeeper in the Eastern part of the country would put his hives on just *one* crop (usually apples) at just one location before putting his hives out for honey. I'm not so old that I can remember when beekeepers were excited because of Maine blueberries opening up for pollination because it meant they could get *two* pollination sets before being placed for honey. Today, the trucks are much bigger and can carry much larger loads. The interstate highway system (yes, there was a time we did not have four-lane highways going hither and yon) means pollinators have significantly reduced their travel time. These factors, and more, have reached the point where one large eastern pollinator has said he places the same boxes in up to 20 different locations a year! Obviously, that is not the same as saying that identical bees are placed on 20 locations, but it is true for the frames, bee decendants, and pest and pathogen decendants. At each stop the hives pick up local pests and pathogens and 'drop off' pests and pathogens from previous locations. Please do not stick your head in the sand. As practiced today, migratory beekeeping is a large part of today's beekeeping problems. I don't know the solution, but I am convinced that increased government regulation *should not* be a part and that it is in their best interest for migratory beekeepers to be more responsible concerning the industry effects of their actions. If they do not somehow band together to reduce or at least better control the impact of their actions, the result will be that someone else will do it. Almost certainly some government agency. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:21:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Hive Registration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit couple of excellent posts by Yoon and Randy. I completely agree. Let me point out that numerous organic/sustainable/environmental groups are taking on the honeybee as the canary in the coal mine - meaning they are the canary for industrial farming. non beekeepers a worried and concerned. this is the down side of the over blown gas bag media stories. people beleive that stuff and want to do something to "Save the Bees!" The sheer mass of members and financial resources of these organizations of concerned citizens dwarf ABF and AHPA. my sense is these organizations are in the research and learning stage regarding honeybee issues and understanding how migratory beekeeping has different needs then the pastoral kind of beekeeping portrayed in many peoples minds. once the issues are better shaped and understood I could see where these organizations could be a major force in a push for common sense regulation of the movement of bees. momentum and politics will come into play and the pollination industry may not like the outcome. too bad we don't seem to have any leadership in ABF or AHPA or elsewhere in the industry to step up to the plate and do this internally in the industry. instead we have people digging their heels in acting like all is well and that somehow there is a god given traditional right to infringe on other beeks who are stationary. from the outside looking in tradition and the interests of a few hundred large almond growers and what 1000 migratory beeks will not carry much weight. the system looks out of control to a non beekeeper. best wishes to the old ways ..........they will make nice memories. as someone recently noted all beekeeping is local - and most bee related problems are caused by movements of bees. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:54:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: The problem with CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My personal opinion is that the problem is primarily Varroa and > all else flows from that. Bill, we had collapses before varroa, so IMO, varroa would be classed as a secondary contributor. But a damn strong contributor nonetheless. I've been checking a lot of bees for nosema of late. Hard to find in most of my yards. But the one place that I can always find it is in the "sick yard" that I brought all my most varroa infested colonies home to for experimentation. Could be coincidence, but I'd sure like to see a study as to whether nosema thrives in varroa-infested colonies. Pete, have you seen such a study? Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:47:11 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Saving ob hive brood [and colony]. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I support on a voluntary basis an observation hive at a local nature center. The bees are covering 1 3/4 deep frames and were requeened a few weeks ago. The queen is laying well but I noticed that the bees are opening some sealed brood. There is very little pollen in the cells - almost none - and I think they are using the older larvae as a protein source. I only have a small jar of pollen left that I will work into a paste and feed to them. This amount may be adequate for 3-4 weeks. I am feeding them sugar water to help them increase their numbers for the spring laying but will need to supply them with more protein mix in about a month at the latest. Any suggestions on which commercial pollen supplements / substitutes are most suitable? I think I'll need only a pound of supplement or so. I've never used any myself. Thank you. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:19:49 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Migratory Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "I think the shipments of package bees contribute equally to the spread of mites, beetles, [and AFB to a much lesser extend]. The pests migrate with the bees in the packages and get injected directly into apiaries." Maybe, but I don't think that packages could possibly be an 'equal' contributor to the speed at which the pathogens and pests are traveling. SHB may be the exception to the rule. By defination, bees in package operations are healthy. One just cannot get good 'shakes' from a hive that is weakened very much. So that hive really stands out to the producer and his crew. And if they do shake it, they will accelerate the demise of that hive, and will pay dearly when the beekeeper sees the bees he gets. The past two Aprils I have treated my packages with an Oxalcid dunk. Got the bees from different producers. AFAIK the dead varroa 'float' (at least some do), and there were very few. Fewer than 5 per package. Of course, the results could have been far different in late May. Dunno. Varroa took what...4-6 years to saturate the country? Resistent AFB took 2-4 years...? IMHO, robbing bees would have taken 2X-3X as long. *My* Varroa did not have to travel by bee wing from Florida to upstate NY to get into my hives... Several 18 wheelers did the trick in 48-60 hours, and then *my* varroa only had to travel 60 miles to get to my bees! What could be more clear? -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:17:59 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Molokai Meli LLC Subject: Effects of CCD Hit Home Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed When we were asked by data collectors in the industry earlier this year if we had experienced CCD losses, we carefully looked over the symptoms before giving our negative reply. Even though we had a larger per cent of winter deadouts than any other year, it was clear it wasn't CCD. If anyone were to ask me now if we have been affected by CCD, I would have to answer, "Positively." It is not a case for media headlines: "CCD HIts Hawaii". No, it's a case for every one of us beeks to understand that all of this information and misinformation as well as cartoon movies for kids that have come about because of this CCD issue, we are now the enemy of the bees. It used to be that the kids respected us for the work we do for the bees, and taking the time to educate them. Now I hear questions like, "You're not one of those people that use smoking guns on the bees, are you? or "Do you really keep thousands of bees in a tiny box?" It seems not to matter in the view of the public just how you keep your bees or what you do to them or for them, if you're a beek, you're the cause of CCD. I see the CCD losses to have gone far beyond the number of hives disappearing mysteriously. Molokai Meli ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:30:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precis: A concise or abridged statement. I enjoy the concise statements Aaron puts at the end of his messages. However I found his post starting this thread to be a little long winded (I'll resist the urge to quote him). So here is my attempt to precis what he said. If you're someone I don't know, Your opinions rank quite low, But if you're someone I admire, Your pithy words will rank much higher. Ted Thinking: Lloyd George knew my father.... Also thinking: James Fischer could use a little precis practise (and I could use a lot of poetry practise). ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:53:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Commercial pollinators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit while some may condem or want to shut down migratory some of the more rationale voices are simply calling for some common sense regulation. CA may need to solve some of their own issues regarding almonds. its not fair for beeks across the country to feel the after affects of this mass migration. they haver blindly moved forward with huge acreage increase with no forethought as to what that means. clearly there will and are limits on the numbers of hives and the affects of having more hives in the future being moved for one industry. what this means to me is the little guys need to be acknowledged and given some protection rather then being treated like jack nothing. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:26:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The problem with CCD In-Reply-To: <06e601c82c67$8b054090$3eaa5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit randy oliver wrote: > > Bill, we had collapses before varroa, so IMO, varroa would be classed > as a secondary contributor. But a damn strong contributor nonetheless. As I noted before, Varroa and the bees can get along with high Varroa loads if there is not added factor, such as virus. Then it depends on which virus, since there are many. There were collapses before Varroa but the most recent were caused by Tracheal, again a mite that can be in a colony with no problems unless there are added factors. It is a semantic issue since, I agree, that Varroa is not the killer, but it is the door opener for the pathogens to do their work. Just as Tracheal mites were earlier. My contention is that most reported CCD in the eastern US is Varroa related. The reports in the west (where you are), which were the original ones, seem to have no common base, including Varroa, but there was a drought which may have muddied the water. If there is something that causes CCD, the answer is in the west, not the east. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:20:05 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: The problem with ccd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bill said "The reports in the west (where you are), which were the original ones, seem to have no common base, including Varroa, but there was a drought which may have muddied the water. If there is something that causes CCD, the answer is in the west, not the east." Today I heard from a guy who runs close to 1,000 colonies in central Idaho. This fall he reports a loss of 50% because of CCD. For past few years varroa was treated successfully with Peppermint Oil (the real stuff, as it is grown in the area) and Apistan (?). This year they went through a terrific drought and nothing worked. Sounds like his fall losses might be classic Varroa, but he said "CCD", and from 3,000+ miles away I was not about to question him further. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:27:34 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Commercial Pollinators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian said "what this means to me is the little guys need to be acknowledged and given some protection rather then being treated like jack nothing." Yeah...but once the government gets involved, who knows where this will go. I am 67, so can be more sanguine than some. But my guess is no government regulation will come forth, and matters will finally get so bad that the guys with 1,000+ hives run primarily for pollination will go belly up. Then a mass scramble and, hopefully, some more rational behavior. Can you imagine some government employee somewhere writing regulations regarding rational responsible behavior for those who produce honey bees for pollination? I can't. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:27:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: migratory beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was accused of making a broad generalization when I said I don't think migratory beekeeping is the source of our current problems. My statement was really a response to unsubstantiated generalizations I have heard condemning modern beekeeping and modern agriculture in general. The burden of proof rests on those people, not me. I am saying that if you think moving hives around causes more problems than it cures, prove it. Most large scale operators move south to build up. This move is to avoid the high cost of package bees and/or to get better bees in the spring. The purpose, therefore, is to get better bees. The movement of bees is not new, it has been going on for centuries. In 1922, the US banned the importation of bees to prevent tracheal mite from getting here. It got here anyway. The ban was kept in place to keep put varroa and African bees, which it did not do. The ban was loosened to allow Australians access to our markets and they get blamed for Israeli virus, which it turns out we already had, along with Nosema ceranae, which also got in despite the ban. Bottom line, restricting movement of bees did not prevent these things and so there is certainly no justification for restricting bee movement at this time. Pollinators are doing a major service to this country by getting honey bees where they are needed. They get a good living from it, and they should. If you study modern agriculture, increased productivity raised the average yield of US farms by 250% from 1948 to 1994. Beekeepers helped bring this about and they have every right to expect to have similar increases in productivity as they modernize their operations. If people want to raise all their own food or eat only local food in season, that's their prerogative, but most people want fresh food daily and this means the movement of frutis and vegetables all over the world, constantly. I understand the reaction against globalization and the whole modern system of expensive transport of bees, livestock, people, you name it. Luddites are not compelled to participate in the modern world. But if you think the whole world should stop doing what they are doing, there have to be some facts. Either show me some facts that conclusively prove migratory beekeeping does more harm than good, or else get off my case. See: "Agricultural Productivity in the United States." By Mary Ahearn, Jet Yee, Eldon Ball, and Rich Nehring, with contributions from Agapi Somwaru and Rachel Evans Resource Economics Division, Economic Research Service U.S. Department of Agriculture Agriculture Information Bulletin No. 74 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:10:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Fact or fiction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit carimona@GMAIL.COM wrote: > Why should we not have a similar plan in place to protect the static hives which are clearly owned by the MAJORITY of beeks? > > Why do we let 1000-1400 beeks and a couple of hundred large almond ranchers decide whats best for beekeeping in the USA? RESPONSE: > The latest Census of Agriculture by the U.S. Department of Agriculture reports that there were about 17,000 operations with 2.4 million bee colonies in 2002. Other available data for 2006 indicate that there were also 2.4 million bee colonies during that year. The majority of these, more than 2 million bee colonies, are reported to belong to commercial migratory beekeepers. from "Recent Honey Bee Colony Declines" Updated August 14, 2007 by Renée Johnson, Analyst in Agricultural Economics ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:09:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Migratory Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Maybe, but I don't think that packages could possibly be an 'equal' contributor to the speed at which the pathogens and pests are traveling. You are right on the speed. :) I was merely referring to the contribution. >>By defination, bees in package operations are healthy. That's relative, of course. My first and only package was rather loaded with mites and the resulting colony was weak at the end of the season. It may have been an exception to the rule but it only takes a handful of healthy pests to colonize an area. >>One just cannot get good 'shakes' from a hive that is weakened very much. In the case of varroa, some strong colonies can be loaded with varroa, at least for a while until other factors kick in. >>Several 18 wheelers did the trick in 48-60 hours, and then *my* varroa only had to travel 60 miles to get to my bees! What could be more clear? We don't get 18 wheelers loaded with hives in my out-of-the-way area but we do get packages every year so for our small group packages are a much bigger factor. It's probably just the opposite in your area, of course. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************