From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:08:06 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.3 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,DRUG_DOSAGE,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDAE4894F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YWj017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0806D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 188511 Lines: 4204 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 07:37:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Melanoma and bee stings In-Reply-To: <47D98E7A.6060004@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who are new here, I had two bouts of malignant melanoma, one on my skin (face) about 12 years ago and the other in a lymph node in my neck, just below where the first was found, about five years ago. I started stinging myself for arthritis a little after the time the first melanoma was removed. I tried it to help with the arthritis pain because of a talk by Charlie Maraz at our State meeting, and it worked. Arthritis is an autoimmune disease, so it does have a correlation to the immune system. Charlie had you sting at the point of pain, so you were re-directing the immune system to the location where the system was not working properly (my, not his, guess). My lymph node tumor was walnut sized and had been there for at least a year, as I started to feel something there. General consensus was it was a cyst, so no big deal, but my dentist thought otherwise so I had it removed (easier than a biopsy). It had not spread since something kept it in check. I thought it might be the bee stings since they do kick up the immune system. Over the past several years, more and more has come out about the immune system and melanoma, that a strong immune system can keep it in check. Today there is additional confirmation of that http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7460743.stm When I last visited my dermatologist, he told me that he has another beekeeper who had melanoma and his experience was almost identical to mine. I take a lot of what is posted by the apitherapy people with a grain of salt, but in the area of bee stings and the immune system, there are at least two of us in the Portland, Maine area who do match the template. Know of any other hobby that fights cancer? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:38:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: AFB, plastic frames and bleach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by dvanderdussen@YAHOO.COM to = the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. -----Original Message----- From: David Vander Dussen [mailto:dvanderdussen@yahoo.com] Sent: Sun 2008.06.22 08:36 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: AFB, plastic frames and bleach =20 Hi Randy; I performed a variation of the test you suggested several years ago. I = used a 50% concentration of water to household bleach on plasatic frames = that had had the old comb scraped off and then the frames were scrubbed = with the solution. After scrubbing the frames were dripping and allowed = to air dry for a couple of days and were then inserted into marked nucs = that had been inspected and found to be free of AFB. In every case AFB = reoccured. AFB is pretty tough. Burning has been my control method of choice since = 1983. Some years AFB occurance is much worse than others. regards, David v. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 06:15:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: U.S. Surgeon Uses Honey, Polarized Light to Save Limbs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit U.S. Surgeon Uses Honey, Polarized Light to Save Limbs How Sweet it is to Use Honey to Heal Wounds By Tracy Farnham, The News Herald (USA), 6/21/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/us-surgeon-uses-honey-polarized-light.html …Dr. Frank Steele is reviving the use of honey, along with polarized light therapy, for wound care and, in some cases, an alternative solution to amputation… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:23:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Almond Pollination Unsustainable In-Reply-To: <000201c8d2e4$80c2b6c0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim and Joe's discussion brings up a question to me: When were the first *paid* pollination contracts made (as opposed to simply moving bees to a crop for mutual benefit)? I met an older beekeeper in California who remembered approaching the almond growers for the first paid almond pollination contract--they got 25 cents per colony, and the growers screamed bloody murder. Does anyone have a reference as to when the first farmer actually paid a beekeeper (in cash or kind). Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:48:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: AFB, plastic frames and bleach In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3414B9D8B@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > In every case AFB reoccured. Thank you, David! Once again, the best test is a field test. AFB spores are incredibly tough, as evidenced by Dr Rosalyn James' recent research demonstrating their resisitance to ozone. As a side note, there are a number of strains of AFB, with different degrees of virulence. All apparently infect young larvae, but some kill them in the early instars, and cause spotty brood, whereas the "normal" strain kills them after they have been capped (5th instar or pupae) and one sees melted larvae or pupae under perforated cappings. This week I found a colony with massive (apparent) AFB mortality of 4th and 5th instar larvae. They simply slumped in the cells, with a lighter color than typical AFB, and had no AFB smell at first. A few days later, they finally developed a faint AFB smell, and began to rope, and the frames finally displayed some sunken cappings with dead larvae under. And yes, I will burn and sterilize with heat. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:20:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Honey bees can count? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Honey bees (Apis mellifera) use quorum sensing to make decisions about new nest sites. Large colonies reproduce through a process called budding, in which the queen leaves the hive with a portion of the workers to form a new nest elsewhere. After leaving the nest, the workers form a swarm that hangs from a branch or overhanging structure. This swarm persists during the decision-making phase until a new nest site is chosen. The quorum sensing process in honey bees is similar to the method used by Temnothorax ants in several ways. A small portion of the workers leave the swarm to search out new nest sites, and each worker assesses the quality of the cavity she finds. The worker then returns to the swarm and recruits other workers to her cavity using the honey bee waggle dance. However, instead of using a time delay, *the number of dance repetitions* the worker performs is dependent on the quality of the site. Workers that found poor nests stop dancing sooner, and can therefore be recruited to the better sites. Once the visitors to a new site sense that a quorum number (usually 10 to 20 bees) has been reached, they return to the swarm and begin using a new recruitment method called piping. This vibration signal causes the swarm to take off and fly to the new nest location. In an experimental test this decision-making process enabled honey bee swarms to choose the best nest site in four out of five trials. Group Decision Making in Honey Bee Swarms P. Kirk Visscher, Thomas Seeley, Kevin Passino **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:29:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: The dances are never performed without an audience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by bees.msu@GMAIL.COM to the BEE-L = list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously = posted material. -----Original Message----- From: Zachary Huang [mailto:bees.msu@GMAIL.COM] Sent: Sun 2008.06.22 21:31 On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:07:52 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Is the dance language a learned trait?=20 =20 I am pretty sure that it is not learned. I have (and many many others = have too) set up "single cohort colonies" where one queen and 2000 ONE DAY = OLD BEES were used to start a colony. Unless the queen was teaching workers = to dance (which is unlikely given that she never forages and has never been observed to dance), workers in this colony, who has no exposure to old = bees, would still dance fine when some bees start foraging precociously = (around age 4-7 days old). Workers under these conditions will dance, make wax, seal honey, take care of brood, all without exposure to old bees. so = none of their behaviors are learned.=20 Zachary Huang www.beetography.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:19:01 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Next Organic Beekeeping Conference Nov 21-23, 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The following will now be the next scheduled Organic Beekeeping Conference following our first one this past Feb. D- http://www.bushfarms.com/organic_beekeeping_meeting.htm Nebraska Beekeepers Association: Chemical Free Beekeeping Conference Southeast Community College, Lincoln Nebraska, Friday November 21, Noon-5:00 pm Saturday November 22, 2008 - 8:00 am-5:00 pm Sunday November 23, 2008 - 8:00 am - Noon The details are still being worked out, but you may want to reserve the dates. The Nebraska Beekeepers Association is having a conference on chemical free beekeeping. Current speakers confirmed are: Dee Lusby Randy Quinn Dean Stiglitz Laurie Herboldsheimer Corwin Bell Kelley Simmons Michael Bush Subjects: Small cell beekeeping Experiences in natural cell beekeeping Bee breeding Top bar hives Natural cell size and varroa Small cell management Several others are in the process of deciding and making arrangements. Details will be updated as available. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 04:02:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? By Judy Foreman, The Boston Globe (USA), 6/23/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/06/does-eating-local-honey-help-prevent.html It's an intriguing idea, but even a staunch advocate of honey for this use acknowledges that there's virtually no published, scientific evidence to support his view… **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lackey, Raymond J (US SSA)" Subject: Burning Fields MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Two things: Hand held torches can be great for starting fires to burn off weeds. It is used for many crops where the crop roots are deep. In North Carolina, a friend commercially growing Peony cut flowers burns the fields every year. For a cheaper source for a torch (and a lot of other hardware), I use: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91037 On the crop flowering in 18 days, I don't think the text supports. What is said is that the beekeepers had been without the asses for 18 days. They may have been planning on moving the bees the next day or the next week but their transportation had been held hostage for 18 days. Ever had a truck break down and need an ambiguous little part that is back ordered? I think we have all experienced delays and will agree that Murphy was an optimist! Murphy's law: If any thing can go wrong, it will go wrong, at the worst possible moment! May your extractor hold up through the last load and only show need for work during cleanup! Raymond J. Lackey - Sweet Pines Apiary Phone:(631)567-1936 FAX:(631)262-8053 Cell: 631-707-1544 mail: 1260 Walnut Avenue, Bohemia, NY 11716-2176 web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html email home: lackeyray@tianca.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:07:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Midwest floods In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3414B9D90@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, 2 million acres of corn & soybeans under water reported today. This mornings AG day program reports above normal rainfall for the next month although my area is on the fringe of the predication. !993 flood for our area was called the "500 year flood". Has only been fifteen years and the Midwest Missouri flood of 2008 has seen higher levels in places already than in 1993. I have not heard of flood bee losses yet but 200 hives went down the river in a single sitting in 1993. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Missouri George Carlin (comedian) passed away. George did a skit about a weatherman. George C. weather humor : Tonight there would be a 70% chance of darkness followed by a 100% chance of light tomorrow! George also asked why the weather people always report the amount of rainfall the airport receives. People do not live at the airport. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:15:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? In-Reply-To: <20080623040207.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.ef4fa81940.wbe@email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit C Hooper wrote: (actually quotes fro the Globe article- > It's an intriguing idea, but even a staunch advocate of honey for this use acknowledges that there's > virtually no published, scientific evidence to support his view… Interesting quote from the beekeeper- > "If you take small amounts daily, it's like getting allergy shots" because you may become desensitized to the > pollens, he said. "I hear from people who are crazy about the results they get" from this, he added. > > But as for real data? Zilch. "You can't get a big bee company to do research because it [the honey] has to be > local," he said. There is a study that does disprove it. Check the archives. You could nail him for practicing medicine without a license. It is one thing to sell honey to someone who tells you that they do it for allergies, and quite another to promote it as an alternative to allergy shots. I have a friend who gets honey from me every season for allergies, even though I tell them it really does not work (certainly does not on me). They think it does and that is enough for them. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:02:11 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill said: > I have a friend who gets honey from me every > season for allergies, even though I tell them > it really does not work (certainly does not on me). > They think it does and that is enough for them. It really is worse than that. Allergy sufferers are plagued by WINDBLOWN pollen. Bees collect the NON-windblown pollen for the most part. Why? The windblown stuff must merely be lightweight, and need not be "high protein" or attractive to bees at all. So, while there may be small amounts of windblown pollen in "local honey", the bulk of the pollen one finds in local honey is non-windblown pollen, highly unlikely to ever be inhaled. Regardless, the power of the placebo effect is significant enough that it rivals many of the drugs being sold on TV these days, and one thing I can be sure about honey is that it has no side effects at all, does not cause drowsiness, etc. So, I let the cusomer lecture me on the health advantages, and become an interested student. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:23:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Lord Subject: Top Bar Hive Honey Extraction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have any experience with different methods of getting honey = from the comb in top bar hives? I am interested in efficient hygienic = techniques that can be adopted by subsistence level beekeepers to = produce a clean, raw product. I have seen hand wringing, melting with = fire and solar melters, and the uncap-and-let drip method, but am = searching for better solutions that keep the honey clean and HMF low. = This will be a large scale operation spread out over a large territory. = 50 tons of honey has been collected so far. I have thought about macerating the combs and spinning them in hand = operated cappings separators but these may be too high-tech. any thoughts appreciated. Bill Lord **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:56:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? In-Reply-To: <485FA1DA.9000100@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is a study that does disprove it. Check the archives. The honey and pollen I take certainly helps my alergies. Severe if left alone and only started around 10 years ago. > > You could nail him for practicing medicine without a license. If this was true you would arrest most health store employees. people should always consider all advice but most advice is given trying only to help. My doctor does not believe I cured my cancer with a walnut hull solution years ago but I have been cancer free for 13 years. My doctor says because I test negative for arthritis in a family tree plagued by arthritis the arthritis skipped a generation. Certainly not 48 years of bee stings. I personally think the best proof is seeing with your own eyes results. One of my closest friends is a MD but we still do not agree on many things but I am lucky to have the good doctor as my doctor and friend. There are problems for which only a surgeon will do. Especially it seems for old beekeepers. Two hernia and a rotator cuff in the last six years. The cures for those problems will not be found on the health food store shelves but in my opinion bee pollen builds up the immune system. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:23:37 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Top Bar Hive Honey Extraction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you are looking for a good product ( maybe export) you must do the extracting in central place, not by idividual beekeepers. They don't have the places or means for extracting or clean buckets for honey storage. If they produce with top bar they should sell the capped frames to collector and extract the uncapped for their own use or sale in local village. The best way to work 50 tons of thb- honey would be a mixer that beaks the combs and wax separator. But hydraulic press is most likely more economic. This way you get the wax too and in large amounts enough that it can be sold easily. Ari Seppälä Finland **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:35:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] What happens to okl frames? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Ron Taylor [mailto:rtaylor421@lowcountry.com] Sent: Mon 2008.06.23 10:24 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: RE: [BEE-L] What happens to okl frames? Hey: I have been using a pressure washer to clean both Frames and the = bee boxes. I feel that I have had good success. Depending on how old the = frame is, the pressure will bring wood to a clear wood color that is usable in = a super or brood box. . I let them dry and then put foundation in and = back in the box. If they are old they will fall apart under the pressure. I = save the pieces for parts and out the old parts in my burn pile for my wood burning stove in my shop. I have used screens to save the left over wax. I use a old deep super = where I put in 5 frames. I work one frame at a time. The water does a job cleaning them. The pressure does a good job cleaning the inside of the hive bodies and supers. I believe this is a big time saver. Question: What is the best way to feed old dark honey back toi bees. Thanks Ron Taylor Geechee Honey farm Cottageville SC **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:31:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Bees and Cancer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a lot that we don't know about bees and our own immune systems. Although there is a general lack of hard research, we do know that people differ in response to a variety of things depending on contact, inhalation, or oral ingestion. I've suffered from allergies all my life, took 5 years of shots when I was very young - started when I was 4. The shots helped a lot, and I'm a strong advocate of them for children. Allergy shots for adults generally require routine boosters. With a child and allergy shots, you have a chance to 'reset' the immune system (my terminology) with some long lasting benefits - I don't take shots anymore, and I haven't for nearly 45 adult years. Of course, some children grow out of allergies, but many don't, and some get worse. I've been lucky to have some very good allergists work with me and with our projects. One of them was among the first to discover a higher incidence of bee-related allergies among the family members of beekeepers. His also warns that skin tests are a highly unreliable means of assessing allergy to bees. These doctors generally concede that there may be some benefit to ingesting small amounts of allergens such as bee pollens. In my own case, if the honey has too much of something I'm highly allergic too, I get a reaction. And, although the primary pollen in honey are from bee pollinated sources, we've found a surprising amount of supposedly wind pollinated pollen in some honeys - e.g., pine and fir pollen in spring honey. So, I'll disagree a bit with Jim on this one - eating local honey may be a placebo effect, but there's some evidence that it may help. Unless you are like me and are highly sensitive to some pollens in honey, there's not much to risk other than eating a tasty product. I do suggest starting with small amounts of local honey if you've got severe pollen allergies. Consumption of pollen itself is something I can't do - so be very careful if you try it. My allergist friends indicate that there is some evidence that oral ingestion of some things to which a person is allergic may have an affect similar to shots - so they don't think its totally a placebo effect. Now, one other thing that I've found about allergies. I'm mildly allegic to bananas - I can eat them cooked, or cut up, but if I peel one back and the banana touches my lips - instant swelling. Uncooked apples make me nauseous. Avocados can be deadly - instant swelling, shortness of breath. Fortunately, I'm cautious, so I've managed to keep the doses small, avoided going into shock, but I've been close. In recent years, I've found out what is going on - its cross-reactivity to proteins, mainly those in trees. The same materials in resin that kill invading pathogens, have counterparts in the skin of fruit, some vegetables. Plants like birch trees, rubber trees, etc. produce proteins that are close enough to those in some fruits and vegetables that people like me have a reaction that is really based on the response of my immune system to the materials produced by these trees - so technically, I'm allergic to them and NOT to the proteins in the fruit. Funny, seems like an allergy reaction to me - swelling, itching, shortness of breath, upset stomach. Good thing I don't often encounter the primary allergen. Not many rubber (latex) trees in MT, although we have birch. Finally, as per cancer. I'd be very cautious about implying bee stings can cure cancer. Any beekeeper who gets melanoma can't really say that bees stings then cured it. Presumably the beekeeper had been stung before developing the melanoma. As per arthritis, my father was a farmer. He injured a finger joint and it froze, wouldn't bend at all. He was like that from my childhood through my college days. Then he got stung (in this case by a wasp during corn harvest). He got hit on the finger (the wasp was on the tractor steering wheel). Swelling ran all the way up his arm, we took him to the emergency room. When the swelling went down, the finger had fully range of motion, and continued that way until he died in his 80s. A single case, but fairly dramatic - and I don't think it was placebo, he didn't know anything about stings and arthritis until after the fact. Jerry **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:05:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill, After you have been in beekeeping for a few years, you will find differently. Although it does not help with allergies to work. Lionel **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:30:49 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: wind pollinating plant pollen in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Jerry Bromenshenk" > although the primary pollen in honey are from bee pollinated sources, > we've found a surprising amount of supposedly wind pollinated pollen in > some honeys - e.g., pine and fir pollen in spring honey. I learned a simple reason for this. We noticed that in some cases honeybees collect fir pollen just the same way as they collect normal pollen. We could take fir pollen from a pollen trap places in front of the hive and confirm the find with microscope. When bees bring it home you get a lot also in honey. Maybe they also collect other wind pollinated pollen. Any other confirmed cases ? Ari Seppälä Finland **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:57:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: wind pollinating plant pollen in honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Maybe they also collect other wind pollinated pollen. Any other confirmed >cases ? I've seen bees working corn tassels. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:39:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? In-Reply-To: <000601c8d55b$a8639d60$4fdad618@bige953ca8f8be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lionel Evans wrote: > After you have been in beekeeping for a few years, you will find > differently. How long makes a few years. I have been a beekeeper for over 17 years, but I know that makes me a newcomer. Took a picture of three active beekeepers here in Maine for our newsletter. At the time they had over 240 years of beekeeping combined. One was Fred Hale who lived to 113 and was the oldest male in the US. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:01:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bees and Cancer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > Finally, as per cancer. I'd be very cautious about implying bee stings can > cure cancer. Any beekeeper who gets melanoma can't really say that bees > stings then cured it. Presumably the beekeeper had been stung before developing > the melanoma. I agree. With me there was no cure, but the melanoma, for some reason, was kept in check. It is one of the few cancers whose treatment is through the immune system, since it seems to be countered by a healthy immune system. I totally agree that my case and that of the other beekeeper in my area are anecdotal. But it is interesting that the factors involved in bee stings are also involved in combating melanoma. Melanoma is a cancer that really starts early in life but does not show itself until later. Those sunburns in youth can lead to its eventual appearance. I grew up in Miami and Key West and lived in the water. That was before sun block. Plus years at sea in the Navy and then seven years stationed in Hawaii (2 and 5 year tours) kept up my UV index. My melanoma was not cured. It had to be removed, both the on the skin and later the lymph node. But, as noted, it was kept in check even though it was in my neck for what was probably several years. Most often, it is fairly aggressive and spreads to other lymph nodes, but mine stayed put even though it grew to walnut size. My Doctor, when he told me I had malignant melanoma, looked at me as if I was a dead man. He lost a close friend, with the same exact circumstances I had, a few months after diagnosis. All cancers are not alike, even those with the same name. So I could have a less aggressive malignant melanoma. I would never recommend bee stings for malignant melanoma, but I do sting myself regularly for both arthritis (which did work immediately for me as it did for your Dad) and for the melanoma. My last PET scan showed no detectable cancer. So, like those who eat honey for allergies, whether it works or not, I sting myself for the same reason. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:21:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? In-Reply-To: <7BBBD82AA897424E80BA07A61A68C1A7@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > My doctor does not believe I cured my cancer with a walnut hull solution > years ago but I have been cancer free for 13 years. Of all the sciences, food science is really in its infancy. All the posts from our apitherapy friends about the healing qualities of bee related products seem a bit far fetched, but some may hold a germ of truth. The problem with most food science is it is nearly impossible to control the variables. We eat more than one food and we have a lot of other environmental factors affect us. A robust immune system could take just about anything on and, with the proper support, could fight cancer. That support could be walnut shells, honey or bee stings. We just do not know. If you look at different diets that are touted for good health, it might be what they are eating, what they are not eating, their lifestyle or none of the above. Too many variables. It is interesting to see what finally kills some of the authors of diet books. Often, it is the diet, especially when they are fringe. Sometimes science stumbles into foods that are actually anti-cancer, like turmeric which is found in curry. Or they bounce back and forth, as with coffee, that it is bad, then good then bad and now good again (women who drink it have lower incidence of breast cancer). So my bee stings may have kept my cancer in check or Bob's walnut shells cured him. Or it could be that I like curry. Might be, might not, but who cares when you are still around to enjoy your family and friends. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:23:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: New Discovery Proves 'Selfish Gene' Exists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Biology professor Graham Thompson from the University of Western Ontario has found evidence for the "selfish gene" (the blind tendency of genes wanting to continue their existence into the next generation) by isolating a region on the honey bee genome in female workers bees. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080620115905.htm -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:19:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? In-Reply-To: <7BBBD82AA897424E80BA07A61A68C1A7@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, There are differences in honey as far as allergies. The honey which works best for my ragweed allergies is the honey produced in the bottoms in fall. Tons of ragweed and the bees bring in the ragweed pollen and place directly under the cappings. When extracting clover honey we rarely see a pollen cell on a comb. Big difference with the dark fall honey. Each frame has many pollen cells which get mixed into the honey through the extraction process. makes the dark fall honey very cloudy. Many ragweed sufferers (such as myself) report relief with in a few days of taking everyday. I can say honestly that many people take a dose of honey daily for their allergies and will say like me that if they miss a few days their allergies flare up and go away after a few days of taking Raw local honey. I am off right now to take a big dose as I have been going through Australian hives today with Terry Brown (Browns bee Australia) and my allergies are acting up. Missed my dose today and yesterday. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:55:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I seem to remember seeing an article in Bee World, probably several years ago, that found that this actually true. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:22:45 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Of all the sciences, food science is really in its infancy. One does not get that impression from reading the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition or the Journal of Nutrition. I'd say the orthodox doctors' knowledge and application of clinical nutrition is in infancy due to a lack of interest and the influence of big pharma. >>The problem with most food science is it is nearly impossible to control the variables. In science, good designs of experiment involve a definition of control and noise variables and tests are run to determine statistical significance. >>A robust immune system could take just about anything on and, with the proper support, could fight cancer. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/19/with-help-a-patients-own-immune-system-fights-off-skin-cancer/ Waldemar PS. I've had very skeptical people come to my house for honey at the urging of their friends and family. Many claim to be able to get off anti-allergy drugs. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:41:21 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: HFCS marketing push MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subj: [Organicbeekeepers] HFCS marketing push Date: 06/23/2008 9:34:59 PM Mountain Daylight Time From: isovox_bees@yahoo.com Below is a story from today's Wall Street Journal on high fructose corn syrup (HFCS). That the HFCS industry sees the need to do positive PR by advertising an industrial feedstock to the public means at least two things. First, when positive PR is needed for a relatively unknown industrial ingredient (i.e., HFCS) that means the industry has detected serious end consumer push back (e.g., grocer store studies show that Moms are switching to other sweeteners). Second, such an ad campaign also is calculated to soften the impact of impending price surges for end products (e.g., create luxury image for HFCS). Last year corn was routinely be under $3/bushel and now is over $7/bushel. The industries that buy HFCS need end consumer demand to justify the continued purchase, or the industries will switch. Positive PR is calculated to shore up that end consumer demand prior to the pass through of price increases. When the price of one substitute (e.g., HFCS) spikes up, market pressures will draw up the price of a substitute (e.g., honey) whose cost structure is not affected by the same sources of upward price pressure (e.g., CCD versus Iowa floods). In the 1970s, when HFCS came to market, HFCS both increased total demand for sweeteners by well over 50% as well as reduced demand for honey in the USA by over 25%: it created new markets and captured old markets. In the 1980s when Chinese honey was first allowed to be imported into the USA the Chinese honey captured more than 25% of reduced domestic demand for honey: imports displaced domestic production. Then the mites. HFCS is a major cost for commercial pollinators, which only will add to their cost and revenue woes attributable to CCD. (Pure speculation question: could early and constant feeding on HFCS be a contributor to CCD in the same fashion that cattle feed "too long" on corn spike their need for pharmaceuticals?) In any event, suppliers of organic honey ought to prepare for greater demand for their product as well as less resistance to price increases independent of that greater demand. from the June 23, 2008 Wall Street Journal Market Place section http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121416915596395063.html High Fructose Corn Syrup Mixes It Up Sweetener Advocate, Soured by Obesity Links, Targets Moms in Ads By SUZANNE VRANICA June 23, 2008; Page B7 The high-fructose corn-syrup business is fighting back. In recent years, there have been a series of research papers and studies linking HFCS to the rise in obesity in the U.S. While sugar has to some degree also been blamed for America's growing weight problems, HFCS, because it is manufactured, has come under greater criticism by consumers and some health professionals. Now a Washington trade group is trying to rehabilitate the reputation of the longtime sweetener. Beginning today, the Corn Refiners Association is launching a big ad and public-relations campaign to convince consumers that HFCS isn't the evil it has been made out to be. The group is running full-page ads in more than a dozen major newspapers around the country saying its product is no worse for you than sugar. The ad, which features a stalk of corn, carries the headline: "And Now a Little Food for Thought." The ad goes on to tell readers that lots of foods and beverages are sweetened with "sugars made from corn, such as high-fructose corn syrup" and that it has the "same natural sweeteners as table sugar and honey." The campaign, created by the Chicago office of Omnicom Group's DDB, includes two other newspaper ads; TV spots that begin in September; and online ads. The lion's share of the ads will run on media that specifically target moms. The group is planning to spend $20 million to $30 million on the 18-month campaign, according to a person familiar with the matter. The use of HFCS began to spread during the 1980s as food manufacturers sought a less-expensive alternative to sugar. It is used in a long list of products such as soda, salad dressing, ketchup and breakfast cereals. Some medical and health experts now say that HFCS is similar to sugar, adding that HFCS isn't metabolized by the body any differently than table sugar. Still, most agree that too much of either is not healthy. Last week, the American Medical Association, following its own investigation, announced that HFCS doesn't appear to contribute more to obesity than other caloric sweeteners. Still, the AMA called for further independent research to be done on the health effects of HFCS and also said that consumers should limit the amount of all sweeteners they use. Its decision comes after some in the medical community called for the AMA to recommend that food companies restrict the use of HFCS or recommend that food companies label products that contain HFCS with a warning. HFCS "has taken it on the chin in the past few years," says Michael F. Jacobson, executive director for the Center for Science in the Public Interest. "It's essentially identical to sugar." But Mr. Jacobson isn't a fan of either sweetener. "Americans are eating far too much of both," he adds. While the CRA has been trying to counter the bad publicity around HFCS since 2004, the group could no longer afford to rely on simple grass-roots marketing tactics such as talking with nutritionists and doctors. "The sweetener has been getting a bad rap, and a big reason is there has been no other information in the marketplace to counter the mistruths," says Don Hoffman, an executive vice president at DDB. As part of the marketing effort, the trade group will also have its PR firm conduct phone and in-person conversations with influential mommy bloggers. Even though some health researchers are now softening their criticism of HFCS, the marketing effort still faces enormous hurdles. Changing the behavior of legions of moms who are growing increasingly leery about processed snacks and ingredients won't be easy, marketing experts say. Moreover, some marketers have already removed high-fructose corn syrup from their products in an effort to capitalize on the backlash. While small food-and-beverage companies such as Jones Soda were among the first to remove corn syrup and replace it with sugar, the movement is no longer reserved for only niche brands. For instance, food titan Kraft Foods has recently come out with a Bull's-Eye Barbecue Sauce that is HFCS-free. The product "appeals to health- conscious patrons because it contains no high-fructose corn syrup, no fat and no artificial flavors, colors or preservatives," Kraft says on its Web site. Kraft products that don't include the sweetener include the Back to Nature product line; Nabisco Oreo 100 Calorie Pack Chewy Granola Bars; Lunchables Pizza and some Kraft Salad Dressings. "We know some consumers are interested in items without high-fructose corn syrup, so we have eliminated it in some of our products," says a spokeswoman for the food maker. Kraft says it has no plan to eliminate HFCS entirely from its product line. Write to Suzanne Vranica at suzanne.vranica@wsj.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:51:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? In-Reply-To: <7BBBD82AA897424E80BA07A61A68C1A7@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I?suffered year round with allergies for approximately 30 years with little relief and taking antihistamine on a daily basis until I started a regimen of taking a probiotic that contains?Bacillus Coagulans, Bacillus Subtilis, Enterococcus Faecalis, Bifidobacterium longum, and Lactobacillus acidophilus which I like to mix with yogurt.? I have gone from being unable to be outside in spring time?when pollen counts?can be over 10,000 here for more that 10-15 minutes to all day within two years.? I ate so much honey that I became allergic to it prior to this treatment thinking it would help with the allergy...but with no effect on allergies.??I can now tolerate honey in small doses. The thinking is that these bacteria rebalance the intestinal flora...eating yeast or inhibiting growth.? I have read recently that lactobacillus is in fresh raw honey and certainly the beebread/pollen would have some of these beneficial bacterial.? I have doubts that irradiated pollen or store bought filtered,pasteurized honey would have same benefits as local raw honey/pollen. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: wind pollinating plant pollen in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by wwfarm@WCTEL.NET to the BEE-L = list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material During several cold and/or wet springs here in Piedmont South Carolina,=20 I have observed bees collecting pollen from the cups formed by fallen=20 leaves. Oak and sometimes pine are blooming at the time and the rain=20 washes large amounts of pollen onto the ground, which pools in the water = from fallen leaves. When the water evaporates there is a rim of=20 concentrated pollen which the bees collect and pack into their pollen=20 sacks. I have not tested the honey to see what is present. The year I=20 first observed this I could not even taste the honey without an allergic = response. I am only sensitive to oak-related pollens, so I suspect that = at least that year they collected considerable quantities. The maple=20 had been killed by frost that year, and I had not started offering=20 open-fed dry pollen substitute in winter. Carolyn Lakeland Beekeepers Association **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 06:37:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: new book on "Bees: Biology and Management" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Bees: Biology and Management" by Peter Kevan at the University of Guelph Reflects the increasing need for apiculturalists to understand bee biology to better manage bees for honey production, pollination, and for science. Apiculture has changed greatly over the past 170 years, so this book is not only about "How to keep bees" but why bees are kept, what it is about them that makes them amenable to management and domestication: their anatomy, physiology, behaviour, diversity, ecology, and value to science, agriculture and the natural world. The main base of the information presented in this book comes from the European races of the Western honeybee, Apis mellifera, but other bees are far from forgotten. The book was written to answer the needs of teaching apiculture at the University of Guelph. The bite-sized shortness of most of the chapters allows readers to learn in short bursts, chapter by chapter, or by longer sessions of several chapters at a time. There are numerous cross-references between chapters and illustrations to allow readers to understand and appreciate how different aspects of bee biology and management are inter-linked. The book can be obtained through www.volumesdirect.com at a cost of $48.70. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:49:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Propolis and Bee Venom Effective in Treatment of Psoriasis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tuesday, June 24, 2008 Propolis and Bee Venom Effective in Treatment of Psoriasis Apitherapy in Treatment of Psoriasis: A New Therapeutic Modality By Fatma A. Abd Raboo, Ahmed G. Hegazi, Nahla E. Ramzy, Dalia M. Shaaban Faten K. Abd El Hady and Doha Y. Khader. Department of Dermatology & Venereology, Tanta University and Department of Microbiology, National Research Center [Presented at APIMEDICA and APIQUALITY 2008 in Rome.] Psoriasis is a chronic skin disease with unsettled etiology. It was suggested that T cells are of major importance in its pathogenesis through induction of different inflammatory cytokines and chemokines. Several therapeutic modalities are used for treatment of psoriasis however, none of them are satisfactory. Apitherapy is the medical use of different honey bee products e.g. honey, wax, bee venom and propolis. It was used for treatment of different dermatological conditions as eczema and herpes virus infection. The aim of this study was to evaluate apitherapy, using bee venom and propolis, as a new therapeutic modality of psoriasis. The study included 42 patients divided into: group I: (n=12) received intradermal bee venom, group IIA: (n=9) received topical propolis ointment, group IIB: (n=9) received oral and topical propolis and group III: (n=12) received intradermal bee venom and oral and topical propolis. A significant reduction in both PASI score and serum level of IL-1â was observed in all groups of patients except group IIA which showed non significant reduction in both. Correlation between percentage reduction of PASI score and that of IL-1 â showed a strong positive correlation in group I. However, positive correlation could not be detected in other groups. Conclusions: Propolis and bee venom are effective in treatment of psoriasis, with minimal tolerable side effects, when used either separately or in combination. However, combination of both can give better clinical and laboratory results. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:50:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Propolis Reduces Chicken Mortality from Newcastle Disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tuesday, June 24, 2008 Propolis Reduces Chicken Mortality from Newcastle Disease Antiviral Activity of Propolis Against Some Avian Viruses A. G. Hegazi1, F. K. Abd El Hady and A.A. Faraghli, Departments of Zoonotic Diseases and Chemistry of Natural Products, National Research Center, Dokki, Giza, Egypt. Animal Health Research Institute, Dokki, Giza, Egypt. E- mail: ahmedgaffer@mailer.eun.eg and amedhegazi128@mail.com [Presented at APIMEDICA and APIQUALITY 2008 in Rome.] Three Egyptian propolis samples were collected from Dakahlia, Ismailia and Sharkia provinces. The antiviral activity of propolis samples was investigated against some avian viruses as infectious bursal disease virus (IBDV), reovirus (RV), infectious bronchitis virus (IBV), larngotracheitis virus (LTV) and Newcastle disease virus (NDV). All propolis samples showed antiviral activity. It was obvious that Dakahlia propolis showed the highest antiviral activity against IB virus and LTV. While Ismailia propolis had the highest antiviral activity against IBDV and RV. On the other hand, Sharkia propolis showed the highest antiviral activity against NDV. The influence of administration of Egyptian propolis on chicken infected with virulent Newcastle disease virus was investigated. The mortality rate of chickens was reduced in NDV infected group which was subsequently treated with propolis. Infection with vvNDV induced a significant reduction of chicken body weight. Propolis induced a significant increase in antibody titer against NDV in the infected group which was subsequently treated with propolis. The chemical composition of propolis samples were investigated by GC/MS, 103 compounds were identified, 20 being new for propolis Dakahlia propolis was a typical poplar propolis but it contained two new caffeate esters and two new triterpenoids. Ismailia propolis was characterized by the presence of new triterpenic acid methyl esters and it did not contain any aromatic acids, esters and flavonoids.Sharkia propolis was characterized by the presence of caffeate esters only, some di- and triterpenoids. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:03:31 -0700 Reply-To: gfcg7312003@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? In-Reply-To: <8CAA3819D672B2C-13A0-545@WEBMAIL-DC08.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't make any claims personally if local honey really helps with allergi= es, but a plethora of my regular customers swear by it and return for more = because they KNOW it works. =A0 Placebo effect?=A0 Maybe.=A0 If this is the case, then the persuasive power= of this suggestion is immense.=A0=20 =A0 I'm thinking people develop mild allergies to wind-blown pollen right now, = get my honey, and after two weeks of local honey consumption=A0(coincidentl= y when the blooms of this particular allegen fade) they get better.=A0 I al= so try to inform my customers that bees don't visit grass so if this is wha= t makes them sneeze, then it's not likely my honey will help. =A0 Same goes for those allergic to cat hair, but most of these customers also = are unable to identify what they are allergic to.=A0 For all I know it may = be their laundry detergent.=A0 For all they know, or want to know, local ho= ney is the answer and based on their own experience, they come back for mor= e. =A0 Several customers also swear by a little honey with a little apple cider vi= negar in a cup of warm water helps with arthritis.=A0 They say they KNOW wh= en they miss their daily honey dose. =A0 I'm a capitalist, not a doctor, so I sell them my honey without further cla= ims on my part.=A0 The hard part is when someone wants local honey from the= field closest to their house thinking the plant varieties ten miles away a= re going to be different.=A0 In some cases they are, but for the most part,= no. =A0 Grant Jackson, MO =A0 =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:30:24 -0700 Reply-To: gfcg7312003@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Reducing swarming (was Plastic vs wood for sustainability) In-Reply-To: <003c01c8d18b$cae6c5c0$f6b3de79@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think, based on my experience, that drawn comb reduces swarming because i= t reduces the immediate congestion and competition for cell space.=A0 I def= ine congestion as the need for the storage of incoming nectar which compete= s with a queen who is laying more eggs each day.=A0 Further, cell space is = tied up for 21 days with developing brood and who knows how long with ripen= ing nectar. =A0 When available cell space become scarce due to a strong influx of nectar an= d when=A0a nice warm spell gets the queen all excited, the hive is congeste= d.=A0 In my mind, congestion is the cause that triggers the=A0swarming impu= lse. =A0 At least that's how I look at it.=A0 Congestion has very little to do with = another swarming term, "crowding."=A0 Crowd your bees all you want, if ther= e is cell space available and accessible, merely crowding your bees won't m= ake them swarm. =A0 Introducing foundation takes time to draw out, and bees will balk at plasti= c foundation and more readily accept wax foundation (as has been my experie= nce).=A0 In the mean time, while the colony waits for the foundation to be = drawn out, more nectar comes in, the queen lays more eggs and the congestio= n increases raising the likelihood of swarming.=A0 I have, however, seen ha= lf-drawn wax foundation with fresh eggs. And even if I introduce drawn comb= , I like to try and stay ahead of my bees by adding new foundation. =A0 Further, while this is not germane to this topic, I'm becoming more concern= ed about rotating my old drawn comb out replacing it with fresh foundation. =A0 Grant Jackson, MO =A0 =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:15:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Reducing swarming (was Plastic vs wood for sustainability) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Grant wrote: >Introducing foundation takes time to draw out, and bees will balk at plastic foundation and more readily accept wax foundation I don't think the problem is the *time* it takes to get fdn drawn out, but this: queens seem much more eager to lay eggs in clean black combs than either light combs or new combs. Dunno why. Sometimes when fdn is introduced into the brood nest, they just fill it with honey which defeats the whole plan which is to give more room for the queen in the brood area and get honey stored above in the supers. Again, I suggest getting fdn drawn in honey supers. A good rotation plan is to replace old brood combs with newer good combs but add fdn to supers during a strong flow. If you don't use deeps in honey supers, you can get new combs made by nucs. New queens seem willing to lay in any comb, and nucs build pretty good combs, albeit on at a time. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:26:30 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: HFCS marketing push MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Pure speculation question: could early and constant > feeding on HFCS be a contributor to CCD... Zero speculation answer: No. There's no need for speculation, as we have hard data on this specific issue. The reason that this can be answered definitively is that CCD has affected operations that never feed any HFCS, such as "self-described 'organic' operations". Despite the fact of CCD's complete indifference to "management practices", and despite the clear consensus on this point for over a year now, there are those with a personal agenda who can't stop asking questions like the one above. They just can't help but think that practices with which they do not agree are behind CCD. Let me say, once again, for the record, that there is no credible evidence at all that CCD is anything more than the net impact of multiple exotic invasive pathogens that got to the North American continent due to lax biosecurity and the same exact "world trade" that has turned this country from the world's biggest creditor nation to the world's biggest debtor nation. CCD is clearly nothing more than the result of a specific set of pathogens. A disease. A disease that no amount of righteousness will cure. A disease that we don't yet know how to avoid. Yet misinformation continues to be circulated by those who have an agenda, each one claiming that their pet peeve is a likely cause of CCD. Such speculation is no longer part of "informed discussion". It is merely attempted slander against perfectly acceptable management practices that are described by many as "Best Practices". **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:39:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Zachary_Huang?= Subject: Re: wind pollinating plant pollen in honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am highly allergic to ragweed pollen. Have seen photos of bees foraging on this plant. One year I ate a small piece of "comb honey" from an exposed colony which we harvested, and I got severe allergic reactions (stomach cramps, hives all over my body, itching all over). I susopect that there were a few pollen cells containing high amounts of ragweed pollen. Zachary Huang **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:52:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...bees don't visit grass so if this is what makes them sneeze, then it's not likely my honey will help. I used to get hay fever whenever mowing the grass around the house. I still do if I don't eat honey for say 2 weeks. Sometimes I forget to take the honey for while. It's not likely I suddenly remember to have hay fever symptoms... It's the sneezing that makes me realize I have not had honey in a while. I don't think it's placebo. Remember, reality always precedes science. I can see how airborne pollen, in its huge overabundance, ends up in the nectar of the flowers bees visit or on the bees' bodies (just as it lands on target flowers). It may take small amounts of this pollen in honey to desensitize the immune system around the digestive track. >>Several customers also swear by a little honey with a little apple cider vinegar in a cup of warm water helps with arthritis. They say they KNOW when they miss their daily honey dose. There was a study where honey injections helped osteoarthritis. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:21:34 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: wind pollinating plant pollen in honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Zachary Huang wrote: >One year I ate a small piece of "comb honey" from an exposed colony which we harvested...I susopect that there were a few pollen cells containing high amounts of ragweed pollen. ...i have a niece and nephew who have many severe food allergies. interestingly, cucumbers are a problem...but pickles are not. (and yes, i know not all pickles are fermented). since it is often stated that eating pollen does not cause an allergic reaction, i wonder if it was simply too fresh, and had not been fermented yet. this is pure speculation on my part, but it is an interesting area. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:47:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: HFCS marketing push MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Despite the fact of CCD's complete indifference to > "management practices", and despite the clear > consensus on this point for over a year now, there > are those with a personal agenda who can't stop > asking questions like the one above. They just > can't help but think that practices with which > they do not agree are behind CCD. Yes and ironically, the academic community itself is sometimes the root source of sensational claims of "catastrophic" losses in the USA due to CCD as well as the speculation that "management practices" are behind CCD. Example: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/nature/ Why are bees dying? September 6, 2007 Dr. Peter Kevan, an associate professor of environmental biology at the University of Guelph in Ontario, told CBCNews.ca in April 2007 that CCD in the United States is "an absolute catastrophe". "We've been pushing them too hard," Kevan told CBCNews.ca. And we're starving them out by feeding them artificially and moving them great distances." Kevan was referring to the practices of migratory beekeepers, who transport hundreds of thousands of beehives across the continent on flatbed trucks to pollinate crops in different states, which causes enormous stress on the bees. He conducted a study on bee ailments that lists stress factors such as confinement, temperature fluctuations and mechanical vibrations during transport, which are upsetting to the bees, akin to jet lag on airplane travellers. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:56:11 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Waldig > I can see how airborne pollen, in its huge overabundance, ends up in the nectar If you open up pollen loads collected from bees at the entrance to the hive and look at the pollen types within the load you can easily find pollen grains of airborne types, in colonies not working these plants for pollen. I've done this myself and seen grass and nettle pollen at a couple per thousand grains of oilseed rape/canola, fireweed/willowherb or clover, depending on the type of pollen the bee was trying to collect. At that time of year, these two airborne pollen types are present locally at around 50 pollen grains per cubic metre of air (at the roof of a building) averaged over 24 hours, sometimes several fold higher and often inevitably higher where the bees fly. Like others, I've also occasionally seen evidence of bees collecting grass or other airborne pollen, but I doubt that this happens regularly in favourable environments or seasons. The airborne pollen might have settled out on the flowers the bees were visiting, or been collected by impaction or even electrostatic charge on the bee's surface whilst out flying. Some of that must get into honey, or into pollen storage cells in honey supers. all the best Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:53:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: HFCS marketing push Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >"We've been pushing them too hard, And we're starving them out by feeding them artificially and moving them great distances." As has been pointed out repeatedly, beekeepers have fed syrup and transported hives for decades with minimal harm. What is happening now is different, and although it may be aggravated by these practices, it can hardly be said to the cause. Syrup feeding is normally only to supplement to natural sources, and moving bees usually takes them out of a dearth and into better pasture. Beekeepers are by and large not stupid and their practices have not changed radically. The best people in the business are saying we don't know yet, and the rest have all kinds of uninformed answers. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:13:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: AFB, plastic frames and bleach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/06/2008 21:23:11 GMT Standard Time, randy@RANDYOLIVER.COM writes: They simply slumped in the cells, with a lighter color than typical AFB, and had no AFB smell at first. A few days later, they finally developed a faint AFB smell, The smell isn't caused by AFB but by a secondary infection. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:26:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Does Eating 'Local Honey' Help Prevent Allergies? In-Reply-To: <668922.28234.qm@web86208.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The responses to this topic says a lot if you look at it dispassionately and try and keep your agenda locked up. There has been a study on this, actually two by the same scientist. The first was without controls and mostly anecdotal and seemed to show that there was a positive effect of honey on allergies, and is the one mostly reported to show it works. The second, with controls, showed that there was not. You do not hear too much about it. So far the posts that say it has helped indicate that if it is not used then problems occur. But others state that if certain pollens are present, they have severe allergic reactions to the honey. All the allergy treatments I know of are sensitization types that build tolerance up over a long period of acclimating the body to the allergen. After time, you can handle the allergen. But with honey, you have to keep taking it or you suffer from the allergen. That does not track with how to get rid of allergic reactions. In fact, one would think that adding allergens to honey would elicit the exact response noted by several who immediately suffered a reaction. There is one thing that we have overlooked in all this and it has little to do with what is in the honey but the honey itself. There is nothing to discount the effect of honey, by itself, in helping someone through potential allergies, since it does sooth the throat, certainly kills most anything it comes in contact with and may flush out some of the bad guys that cause problems. If I recall correctly, that was the assumption of the researcher. There are just too many contradictions in even anecdotal evidence to conclude that pollen in it works to combat allergies to that pollen, and too much that says you will have an allergic reaction if the pollen is truly present. Add that it is very difficult to determine just what pollen is in the honey. It may not have any pollen in it that you are trying to combat. Something may be happening, but I would give the credit to the honey, which makes me feel good even in the dead of winter, with no pollen present. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:40:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: Re: HFCS marketing push In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amen Peter, I've been saying that all along.Nothing has changed in the ways commercial beekeepers move bees,and feed them. Over the years around me the best bees,beekeepers and largest citrus honey crops were made by guys that fed non stop during the winter. The bees or the viruses (maybe pesticides with it) have changed,not the way we run them.I still say statements like that,(moving and stressing) are a cop out for not having a real answer for the cause of CCD. Sure it adds some stress,but like you said, the bees are going to a place where milk and honey flow,ie pollination bloom or a honey flow ahead,not to a grave yard. It's my story and 2 cents,but I'm sticking to it! I don't buy the pushing the bees to hard all of the sudden, there alot more gritty than we give them credit for in that area. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:56:31 +0100 Reply-To: ruaryrudd@iol.ie Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: AFB, plastic frames and bleach In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think so. AFB (Paenobacillus larvae) is a pure culture and has some properties preventing secondary infection. EFB has secondary infections running with it. Ruary -----Original Message----- The smell isn't caused by AFB but by a secondary infection. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:57:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: witch bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit seems to be more interesting bad news around but no mention of witch! type of bees in salem. http://salemnews.com/punews/local_story_176000158.html mike bassett new york **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:30:34 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: witch bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of things stick out like a sore thumb here: 1) Isn't late June a tad late for swarms in coastal MA? 2) Since when does a swarm fly around as a group in several yards? 3) Since when has a swarm stung anyone but the most persistent idiot who directly assaults the bees? 4) "Several hours"? Since when do swarms fly around for that long? 5) Where was the normal swarm behavior of settling on a branch? 6) No one mentioned a "roaring" sound, and this is what is most noticed by civilians near hives that swarm. 7) What's the furthest anyone's seen a swarm settle on a branch from the parent hive? A hundred yards? 8) The photo of the man and his dog shows no swelling or welts on a man who was purposively stung 10 or 12 times "on the head". 9) Amazing that no one visited the emergency room after being stung multiple times, isn't it? If there were a recently-arrived swarm of AHB (like the one that came to VA in a boxcar years ago) that set up housekeeping nearby, then these incidents might seem more plausible, but if this were the case, the incidents would continue. I think that the bees are being subjected to the sort of hysterical witch hunt for which Salem is well-known. I suspect that the "local beekeeper" certainly will be subjected to a witch-hunt. Anyone know any beekeepers in Salem, MA? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:16:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: witch bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sure a lot of the residents of this community had a rough time. But come on now. Several hour? I would believe at the most an hour. Hollywood and the media likes to stretch the truth for better rating or sell more papers. Russ Dean West Virginia **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:16:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: How far can swarms go Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer asks: “7) What's the furthest anyone's seen a swarm settle on a branch from the parent hive? A hundred yards?” Funny you should ask. Last summer, on the 4th of July actually, I had a swarm issue forth from a hive in my back yard. At first it settled high up in an Alder tree close by. Not able to reach them, I kept a close eye on the swarm in hopes that they would reposition themselves more to my advantage. I even set up an empty hive down in the woods about a hundred yards away. They stayed up there in that tree for two or three hours. At one point after, verifying they were still there, I went down to look at my trap just to see if I could make some improvements. When I came back not more than ten minutes later my swarm was gone. I went to look at my trap again to see if I had gotten lucky. Nothing. About a half hour latter, after I had written my bees off, I got a call. It was from a guy who was in charge of setting up the fireworks display down at the waterfront about a quarter mile away. Seems a swarm of bees had settled in a pine tree right in the middle of where a couple hundred people were just starting to gather for the festivities. He had gotten my name and number from I don’t know where and was wondering if I would be kind enough to get those bees out of there. I jumped in my truck with a cardboard box, a veil and some pruning loppers and went on down there. The sheriff's deputy let me through the cordon, and with a whole bunch of folks looking on, I commenced to capture that basketball sized swarm ehich was on an outer branch at about eye level. Everyone was quite impressed, and I had the distinct feeling of being a genuine hero. The guy who had called me thanked me profusely and asked if they owed me anything. I said no that I was happy to do it as a public service and sheepishly but very gratefully I drove back home with what were almost certainly my own wayward bees. Somehow I didn’t think it necessary to mention this at the time though. So I learned that day that swarms can settle more than a hundred yards away. Just thought you might find that story amusing. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:11:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: witch bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25355103/#storyContinued Just the facts. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:13:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Germany and France Ban Pesticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: GreenRightNow.com=20 Published June 25, 2008 10:12 AM=20 Germany and France Ban Pesticides Linked To Bee Deaths; Geneticist Urges = U.S. Ban In light of recent European bans of a pesticide linked to Bee Colony=20 Collapse Disorder (CCD), at least one key bee expert is calling for a = ban of the same pesticide in the United States. "In the United States, = drastic action is needed," says Canadian geneticist Joe Cummins, = explaining that U.S. farmers and beekeepers shouldn't have to wait for = more evidence or for an air-tight explanation for the complex syndrome, = which threatens one in every third bite of food in the United States. = Now most apiarists and scientists realize that pesticides are a factor = in CCD, he says. =20 Cummins' remarks, in an interview with GreenRightNow, come less than a = month after Germany's ban of clothianidin, a pesticide commonly used to = keep insects off of corn crops. Germany banned the pesticide after heaps = of dead bees were found near fields of corn coated in the pesticide, and = in response to scientists who report that the insecticide severely = impairs, and often kills, the honeybees that corn and other crops depend = on for pollination. The German government took the extraordinary action to protect bees and = other essential pollinators, stating that there is now enough compelling = evidence connecting the chemical to Bee Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) = in that country. The ban also will likely fuel the European debate over genetically = modified food, which involves treating crop seeds to resist harm from = pesticide treatments. Critics of such modified foods say they are = harming the environment, and have unknown human consequences, for little = or no crop gain. Some scientists in Europe have called for their ban. Full Story: http://www.greenrightnow.com/2008/06/23/germany-and-franc... = **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:53:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: insect aggression MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline And now, for something completely different: > Starve a fruitfly for a couple of hours, and it gets a little cranky. Pop it into a fruit-fly-sized ring, add seven other starving flies and just one piece of food, and you'll have a riot. "They stand up on their little hind legs and tussle," says geneticist Trudy Mackay at North Carolina State University in Raleigh. "And then there's the wing slap," adds her collaborator, Robert Anholt. > Researchers in Mackay's lab quantify aggressive behaviour by counting how often each fruitfly wrestles, slaps, or chases its competitors. They have uncovered a wide range of responses, even among members of the same species. One fly had 100 aggressive inter-actions in two minutes; others had as few as three. "Those are the pacifists," says Mackay. "They sit there and share the food." > "I'm after as much sequence as I can get, in a very greedy way," says Stephen Richards of Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas, who is an investigator on the drosophila project. Richards says that similar projects in other insects, such as mosquitoes or honeybees, could be on the horizon. Published online 25 June 2008 | Nature 453, 1154-1155 (2008) | doi:10.1038/4531154a **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:13:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Top Bar Hive Honey Extraction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/06/2008 16:40:31 GMT Standard Time, wglord@ATT.NET writes: Does anyone have any experience with different methods of getting honey from the comb in top bar hives? 1. That which has an acceptable appearance and dimensions is cut and packed as cut comb honey. 2. That which won't fit neatly into cut comb containers might be suitable for chunk honey. 3. Getting more technical, I often use a fruit (cider) press to squeeze comb that has been placed in a nylon or muslin bag for initial straining. 4. More technical still, mashing the comb in a (food grade!) bucket, warming to about fever pitch and pouring through a strainer. Other products of a top bar hive shouldn't be neglected: 5. Patches of bee bread are delicious and nutritious and should find a ready local market (if the beekeeper doesn't eat it all!). 6. By taking out one bar and easing the rest apart by a smidgeon (or the metric equivalent) a harvest of propolis can be obtained by running a hive tool down each side of the remaining bars at each opening of the hive. I was told by an African at Apimondia 2005 in Dublin that by taking out several bars they can obtain large sheets of propolis and that the ingress of light is the stimulus. I haven't tried this myself though. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:33:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Top Bar Hive Honey Extraction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a post script to my previous mail: pressed comb will still contain a quantity of honey. This can be recovered and put to good use by breaking it up, placing in a closed container with honey that was unsuitable for sale (eg from brood combs), adding herbs according to taste and availability, eg, hops, citrus fruit or apple juice, fennel seeds. The container is then topped up with water and yeast added. After leaving for a week or two in a warm place the liquid product is siphoned into bottles or a suitable sized barrel. The valuable de-honeyed wax can be recovered and purified for sale. The honey beer can be disposed of at the discretion of the brewer! Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:40:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] What happens to okl frames? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/06/2008 17:42:38 GMT Standard Time, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: Question: What is the best way to feed old dark honey back to bees. The fact that you are so concerned about cleaning frames suggests that you are very alert to the possible presence of undetected AFB spores. It seems odd, therefore, that you should contemplate feeding old dark honey (which probably acquired its hue from contact with brood combs) back to bees. It is more suitable for human consumption (baking and brewing) than for feeding to bees. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:36:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Old News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.livescience.com/animals/070904_ap_ancient_beehive.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:52:15 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "In light of recent European bans of a pesticide > linked to Bee Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD)..." Whoa, there. No pesticides have been linked to CCD. Not a one. As more data comes in, pesticides look less and less likely to play any role in this pathogen-driven problem. What happened in Germany was a simple pesticiude kill, nothing more. What happened in France is that problems with hive losses did not ease when the pesticides were "banned" under the precautionary principle, despite a lack of any evidence. Neither incident has been mistaken for CCD by anyone. > "...at least one key bee expert..." How is Joe Cummins a "bee expert" at all? Has anyone ever called him a "key bee expert"? Let's see what he says about himself in his own words, here: http://www.indsp.org/ProCummins.php Nope, no mention of bees at all. Just the usual collection of knee-jerk luddite resistance to the technologies that feed the planet. > "...is calling for a ban of the same > pesticide in the United States." Funny, he isn't calling for a ban in Canada? Only in the US? I wonder why? > "'In the United States, drastic action is needed,' > says Canadian geneticist Joe Cummins..." OK, let's take drastic action, lets ask him if he has ever even looked inside a beehive. > "...explaining that U.S. farmers and beekeepers > shouldn't have to wait for more evidence..." He'll have to excuse us for waiting for at least some evidence, any evidence at all. > "...or [wait] for an air-tight explanation > for the complex syndrome..." It stuns me to see someone who calls himself a scientist telling people to leap into action before they even have a explanation that can survive some basic critical thinking. This sort of commentary does not even earn Joe the title "Pop Tart". It only deserves to be called the work of a "Generic Toaster Pastry". Why is it that the Looney Tunes version of everything gains so much traction, not only with civilians, who can be excused for being ignorant and gullible, but also with a significant fraction of beekeepers? How do people read this sort of drivel without laughing their heads off? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:52:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Bartlett wrote: >In light of recent European bans of a pesticide linked to Bee Colony >Collapse Disorder (CCD), at least one key bee expert is calling for a ban of the same pesticide in the United States. "In the United States, drastic action is needed," says Canadian geneticist Joe Cummins, explaining that U.S. farmers and beekeepers shouldn't have to wait for more evidence * Joe Cummins is not a "key bee expert", and he is using the honey bee's problems to advance his agenda: > Genetics Professor Joe Cummins of the University of Western Ontario believes that the GM seed industry is aiming at nothing short of total control -- i.e., that certified seeds will be required for all plantings, and that these seeds will have to contain a herbicide-resistant gene. from "Are We Being Genetically Modified?" JUDY KENNEDY / CCPA Monitor Apr02 > Now most apiarists and scientists realize that pesticides are a factor in CCD, he says. Now, he is speaking for "most apiarists and scientists" as if they are in total agreement with his slanted viewpoint. I seriously doubt that "most apiarists and scientists" advocate ditching modern agriculture in favor of an all-organic world, as he does. > Organic agriculture must be widely adopted to save the honeybee. Sub-lethal levels of pesticides, including the Bt biopesticides produced in genetically modified (GM) crops covering some 30 percent of the global area, disorientate the bees, making them behave abnormally, and compromise their immunity to infections. Regulators have allowed the widespread deployment of systemic neonicotinoid pesticides based on assessments of lethal dose in bees of the pesticides alone, ignoring clear evidence that sub-lethal pesticide levels act synergistically with fungal parasites [nosema] in killing insects. The honeybees may well be succumbing to such synergistic effects. There is every reason to eliminate the use of all pesticides that act synergistically with parasitic fungi, and all Bt crops should be banned for the same reason. Obviously, these problems will disappear with the widespread adoption of organic, non-GM farming. from "Saving the Honeybee Through Organic Farming" Professor Joe Cummins **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:07:24 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: AFB, plastic frames and bleach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Once again, the best test is a field test. Why would one introduce the inherent additional layer of fog of a field test when it is so easy to first test the ability of the proposed cure against a simple petri dish of AFB grown on agar? The old exclusion zone is the gold-standard test, as it puts the presumptive "cure" in direct contact with the cultured bacteria. Nothing can work "in the field" unless it first is shown to work "in the petri dish". The usual recipe is to grow it on MYPGP agar at 37°C for 48 hours or so. Easier than baking a cake. But Cliff Van Eaton has been doing this sort of thing in NZ for years. Anyone wanting to check out "alternative" approaches to AFB would do well to ask Cliff. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 03:24:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: wind pollinating plant pollen in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/06/2008 19:35:52 GMT Standard Time, komppa-seppala@CO.INET.FI writes: Maybe they also collect other wind pollinated pollen. Any other confirmed cases ? Maize. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:38:16 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] What happens to okl frames? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Question: What is the best way to feed old dark honey back to bees? >very alert to the possible presence of undetected AFB spores. A relatively safe way may be to feed it to a swarm on foundation. Some 90% of any AFB spores will digested in the first hour. Of course, the bees will try to deposit the honey as soon as foundation is drawn somewhat... Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:37:59 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides In-Reply-To: <000101c8d72f$42dfb110$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline German beeks will receive 2 millions euros from Bayer cause of Poncho Pro damage. http://cl.invertia.com/noticias/noticia.aspx?idNoticia=200806251430_EFE_FA3067&idtel= -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:41:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10806260437r2989c8acwd0373a9d7b8c0106@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > German beeks will receive 2 millions euros from Bayer cause of Poncho Pro > damage. > Other cases will use the case as a precedent. Many can not move past the word CCD. Including some on BEE_L. CCD is this and CCD is that. Give me a break! Would have been easier for many commercial beeks if those pushing the *word* CCD had stuck with the first wording used: "Disappearing disease" Unsolved through the ages in the "cold case" files and soon to be joined by CCD. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:24:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: EAS 2008 - Carpool anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit EAS 2008 will be held August 4 - Aug 8 at Murray State University, Murray, Ky. See http://easternapiculture.org/programs/2008/ It's about an 18 hour drive from my neck of the woods to Murray State. I'll be flying. But I have friends who are interested in carpooling. Are there any BEE-L subscribers interested in carpooling to Murray, KY to attend EAS 2008? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:42:40 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Plain pool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For anyone around the southern tip of earth ... http://apicongreso.com/index.php?lang=en -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:44:39 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Old News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "They [the hives] were found in orderly rows, three high, in a room that > could have accommodated around 100 hives." So the "factory-farmed bees" that the granoloa and berkenstock crowd have disparaged as "unsustainable" turn out to be just as "sustainable" as migratory beekeeping was shown to be by Egyptain records. > "the Holy Land was home to a highly developed beekeeping industry nearly > 3,000 years ago" Yep, it was an "industry". It was farming. Still is. > "The finding is especially unique, Marcus said, because of its location > in the middle of a thriving city - a strange place for thousands of bees." Golly, even "urban beekeeping" is old hat. The burden of proof of sustainability appears to have been reversed. Mere longetivty alone seems to make the case for mainstream beekeeping. 3,000 years of tradition is hard to refute. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:15:03 +0100 Reply-To: ruaryrudd@iol.ie Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Gormanston 2008 summer course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Who is going to this course which is running from July 21st -Jul 26th? Ruary **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:37:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:41:45 -0500, Bob Harrison wrote: >> German beeks will receive 2 millions euros from Bayer cause of Poncho Pro >> damage. >> >Other cases will use the case as a precedent. I agree, what's skipped over in most blogs and news stories is this was a raw chemical incident, not a systemic poisoning which the main controversy surrounds. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:58:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would have been easier for many commercial beeks if those pushing the *word* CCD had stuck with the first wording used: "Disappearing disease" It was "the working groups, east or west?" that came up with the new name. I guess new grants are easier to obtain for new problems. After all it is a new problem ,isn't it?????? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:20:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The name CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder) was chosen because the name disappearing disease implies that one knows that the cause of the disappearance of the bees is a disease, which may or may not be true. I was involved in the phone call that discussed what to call this when it became apparent that the problem was not fall dwindle disease (another of the old names that implied that the disorder only occurs in the fall). I was the one that argued that we shouldn't call it a disease unless we knew it was a disease. Also, not all of the bees disappeared, the first symptom was a collapse. Jeff Pettis pointed out that Collapse better described what we were seeing. And, it occurred at the colony level, hence the name CCD. Now, I've been around for over 30 years, so I can say that CCD may be the same thing as the Disappearing Disease of the 70s and 60s - if you read the old reports, the symptoms are similar, if not the same. Its also been called Dwindling Disease, and a host of names such as SAD. Assuming this is something that comes around every so often, the problem with the old names is that most implied things about the problem that were assumed, not proven. And, as many on the list are quick to point out, disappearing disease had a tendency to disappear before anyone could figure it out. Unfortunately, we are into year two of CCD in this iteration (assuming it is the same problem) and it hit at the same time (maybe shifted a few weeks later) and about the same number of colonies/operations as it did the year before. Jerry Jerry **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:58:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:20:51 EDT, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: Unfortunately, we >are into year two of CCD in this iteration (assuming it is the same problem) >and it hit at the same time (maybe shifted a few weeks later) and about the >same number of colonies/operations as it did the year before. Jerry in your estimation, what percentage of operations were hit a 2nd time around this year? or in other words what percentage of operations hit are new this year? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:56:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian said: >I agree, what's skipped over in most blogs and news stories is this was a >raw chemical incident, not a systemic poisoning which the main controversy surrounds. A recent incident in France was a misapplication issue but it would be hard to say all are. Bayer says misapplication is rare but says all bee death linked to its product is misapplication. Companies have got a problem when they release statements about their product and produce tests paid for by the company to get the product registered which are later proven to be incorrect. As Brian says little proof exists to positively confirm the neonicotinoids are killing bees but proof does exist that higher amounts are found in both honey and pollen than was said to be when the products were registered and no sub lethal testing was done. Look at the way imidacloprid kills termites. It is sad that it is so easy to get a product registered *if* you have plenty of funding and so hard to get labels changed and products pulled. Many feel the payoff in Germany is what many call "hush" money. A drop in a deep bucket for chemical giants. Large auto makers have chosen for years to simply settle auto lawsuits rather than fix the problem. Cheaper in most cases. Possibly big ag will try the same. Make billions and throw beekeepers a couple million. Exxon finally settled the Valdez oil spill. Money talks and the folks of Alaska are getting a few crumbs after fifteen years. The judgment reduced by 80% I was told. To excessive an amount the court said. Why did Exxon fight so long and hard? They know the spill most likely will be only one of many down the road and sets a precedent Exxon feels they can live with. Bayer starting to make payoffs seems to show a problem exists with their products causing bee death. The problems with bees and the neonicotinoids is like a sandspur in the foot of a giant. uncomfortable but not a big deal! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:55:43 +1000 Reply-To: queenbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Top Bar Hive Honey Extraction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At Apimondia in 2005 in Dublin Swienty won a gold medal for their top bar hive extractor. Don't know if they still make it. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:28:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Based on input, conversations, sampling we've done, overall CCD hit about the same percentage of the nation's beekeepers as last year - Pettis and Van Engelsdorp numbers bracket this- one higher, one lower.? Our impression - not based on any rigorous data is that some of the folks who had problems last year are doing well this year, many have most of their operations doing very well, but still have 20-30% of their colonies slow to grow.? As a guess, I'd say about 1/3 (based on phone calls, requests to sample) are new this year. Included in the new cases are states that did not report last year and more of the organic beekeeping outfits. Jerry **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:55:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides In-Reply-To: <8CAA5F313F3624D-FF4-4924@webmail-nb09.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > and more of the organic beekeeping outfits. As nosema ceranae moves into organic outfits and the only cure most of us have found is higher than normal doses of antibiotic I expect you will many organic outfits seeing total collapse. Now that most large outfits have got a handle on N. ceranae most report best bees in years. Weather biggest issue I hear. However: Beeks in the boot heel of Missouri/Arkansas and nearby states are reporting high losses for the 4-5 the year in a row. Not knowing what is causing their bees to dwindle most claim CCD. Some have sought my help and others Jerry B.'s. I suspect one of the beeks has contaminated his comb (as per Brian's suspicions) but another ran Russians on clean comb. Another has his own version of Honey B healthy but was sure was not the source of his problems. Quite a few commercial beeks have simply pulled out of the honey rich delta and have found their problems went away. Sorting out the issue is very hard as ltttle testing is being done. . Once the Beek says he uses other than the normal methods of treatment for varroa or nosema I have a hard time with helping the beek. There seems to be a connection between using the new apistan strips and hive problems. I have not heard of any beeks using checkmite for a very long time but many still use apistan strips. Maybe a coincidence but it seems those using apistan are seeing problems. Those with the best bees (using legal treatments) are using formic acid pads. Joe traynor ( national meeting in his talk) said the beeks bringing the best bees into almonds *said* they were using formic for varroa control. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:50:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: 32 Honey Hunting Trips? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I located this factoid in an old article. Can this be referenced anywhere else to be sure it is accurate? Thanks, Joe ========> The Tyrone Daily Herald Wednesday, June 10, 1925 Tyrone, Pennsylvania "Honeybee On The Job A honeybee spends more time in the hive than she does outside and makes only about thirty-two honey-hunting trips in her lifetime. -Science Service" =========> **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:22:26 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: 32 Honey Hunting Trips? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While the notion of a "busy bee" is instantly refuted the first time one marks a forager in an observation hive and tracks what it does during a day, the "32 trips" is a understatement. Sure, foragers are not constantly foraging, but I've personally seen the same marked forager return to a feeder dish a dozen times in a single morning. Researchers with more patience likely have higher counts. A few factoids quoted from Jurgen Tautz's book "The Buzz about Bees" (soon available in English!) will help here: 1) The energy content of a full load of nectar amounts to 500 J (joules). 2) During an average lifespan, a forager carries 50 kJ back to the nest. 3) The foraging force of a colony, involving more than 100,000 individuals during a summer, undertakes several million foraging lights, and carries about 3-4 million kJ of energy back to the hive. What can we conclude from these averages? a) 50kJ is 100 times 500 J, so 100 trips per forager career seems more reasonable minimum in light of more recent science. b) Many forager careers are cut short by misadventure, which lowers averages drastically. c) The numbers are inherently sloppy. Even the book I quoted is inconsistent in its counting and math - re-read (3) above, and note that "more than 100,000" bees making "several million foraging flights", implies tens of trips per bee rather than hundreds or even a hundred. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:48:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Fw: [BEE-L] Top Bar Hive Honey Extraction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor wrote: > Don't know if they still make it. http://www.swienty.com/?pid=1&id=108600 Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 02:51:06 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Beyond the Honeybee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This should make for interesting reading! For researchers will have a job, but will beekeepers in the future, the way CCD is going, knowing there are plenty of bees still left? Or, would you disagree? http://www.amnh.org/science/papers/bee_080611.php **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:28:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides- apistan In-Reply-To: <9069802EC876442483BCBAB141D0DBEB@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > There seems to be a connection between using the new apistan strips and > hive problems. I have not heard of any beeks using checkmite for a very > long time but many still use apistan strips. Maybe a coincidence but it > seems those using apistan are seeing problems. There have been reports that Apistan was "re-formulated" and the current fluvalinate is a different version than the original, much more potent. Problem is, I have that second hand so it might be or might not be true. Anyone know for sure? If you go to the USDA pesticide sheets, there are different versions of fluvalinate which have different lethality. When you are dealing with a chemical that kills bugs and not the host bug based on concentration, any change could be a problem. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:00:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides- apistan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit it was discussed in a Maryann Frazier talk. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4115244451959719523 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:06:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides- apistan In-Reply-To: <4864CEEC.5090205@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There have been reports that Apistan was "re-formulated" and the current > fluvalinate is a different version than the original, much more potent. What I have been told is in 1995 the formula changed to a tau fluvalinate. However many of the former strips were still in bee supply houses. The first fluvalinate was only mildly toxic to bees but the tau fluvalinate is rated very toxic to bees. I think the problem started when the mites started becoming resistant to fluvalinate and in some cases beeks starting increasing the number of strips being used. 2 in the bottom box and two in the top were not unusual. I am always surprised when many beeks gasp at fluvalinate and coumaphos being the highest chemical found in brood nest comb by researchers. Fluvalinate has been registered for bees in the U.S. for almost two decades and coumaphos for around a decade. Most bee supply houses sell both. Why wouldn't both be the most found chemicals with the highest levels? In a recent experiment I placed bees on old comb which had both checkmite & apistan ( not tau fluvalianate) used for years. Nice frames of brood and the larva were snow white. I have not used apistan or checkmite myself for many years and have changed all my combs. The problems I see in my yards now is nosema ceranae and to be honest some virus issues in my opinion I which should not be seeing as I have had excellent varroa control this spring. Although only an occasional cell or two I see larva problems and only in late stage larva. Four beeks looked at what I am seeing and all had different opinions. Two thought possibly stone brood and two not sure but all thought was not European foul brood. Not really a big deal right now with supers on but I am keeping a eye on those hives to check after supers are pulled. It is a possibility I have got a light infection of European foulbrood and plan on ordering a test kit from dadant on my next order. The hives I pulled the brood from for those hives I treated for European but those hives have had no treatment. Again these hives were completely taken apart and gone through by four beeks , brood and stores counted and all frames observed. We took apart four of this years Russian/Russian hives. Found one with a cell of chalkbrood ( a first) , three out of four had superceded the marked queens. In fact two of the supercedure queens were virgins. The marked queen had a great brood pattern. These are only four of the hives I have started so may not be represntive of all. it is what it is. Please do not kill the messenger! Despite what some say hives disturbed the least produce the best when all factors are the same but in test yards complete disassembly is best to evaluate a hive. regardless of the time involved. if you have got a yard of bees with problems pick a couple hives and tear all the way down and observe all frames and bees. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:21:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides- apistan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wonder how long will apistan and checkmite be under a Section 18 so called "emergency" listing? would seem that an emergency does not last almost 2 decades? one could make the argument the new emergency is the high levels of these materials found in brood comb. now that we have formic and apiguard i'm still waiting for some industry leadership to step forward and request the delisting of checkmite and apistan if we're serious about improving honeybee health. whatever happened to the OA listing? its legal in Canada and parts of the EU, why are we still waiting here in the USA? where are the two leading honeybee organizations on this critical issue of miticide regulation? ABF asks Congress for help on CCD but is unwilling or unable to take action on the self contamination issue that they could do immediately without federal funding. what is wrong with this picture? IMO we need a new honeybee/beekeeper organization to step forward with a new set of values. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:27:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Re: Beyond the Honeybee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The arrival of CCD in North America coincides with rising honey prices, wor= ldwide.=A0 This will probably be sufficient financial impetus for beekeeper= s to stay in business, so long as they don't lose too great a fraction of t= heir colonies.=A0 E.G.: if I lose half of my hives, make only half as much = honey but sell it for double the price that I used to get for honey, I am b= etter off than before, because operating half as many hives means less oper= ating costs.=A0 Does this make any sense?=0AEric the sideliner in Howe , Te= xas=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:27:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides- apistan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Bob Harrison wrote: >I am always surprised when many beeks gasp at fluvalinate and coumaphos being the highest chemical found in brood nest comb by researchers.... >Why wouldn't both be the most found chemicals with the highest levels? this brings up a few thoughts: 1. why do beekeepers feel justified in asking everyone else (farmers, homeowners) to reduce their pesticide usage to "help the bees", yet never ever consider that the "lowest hanging fruit" as far as reducing chemical contamination in the hive is in the hands of the beekeeper? ...as these substances are both the biggest source of contamination, and deliberately put inside the hive by the beekeeper. 2. unless we are to assume that the researchers at penn state are overlooking the obvious, we can assume that the samples of pollen (both beebread and trapped), brood, foundation, bees were _not_ taken from hives that were being treated at the time. trapped pollen has _never_ been in the broodnest...either the bees themselves, or the nectar/honey they take from the hive to pack it into the pollen baskets must be the source of contamination. 3. it's one thing if there is some kind of "encapsulated contamination" in the wax...but near lethal levels in the brood should be cause for concern. 4. how would you respond to a customer who says, "i saw this video online from a bee researcher at penn state. they found that the highest levels of chemical contamination in the comb, bees, brood, beebread, trapped pollen was from chemicals put in the hive by the beekeeper...and they are specifically not testing the honey. i'm concerned that these chemicals are also in the honey." deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:47:20 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides- apistan In-Reply-To: <37EA0653B7E34E2CA55569D7105E08A7@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "The problems I see in my yards now is nosema ceranae and to be honest some virus issues in my opinion I which should not be seeing as I have had excellent varroa control this spring. Although only an occasional cell or two I see larva problems and only in late stage larva. Four beeks looked at what I am seeing and all had different opinions. Two thought possibly stone brood and two not sure but all thought was not European foul brood." Bob Over here (Chile) usually after nosema I find some larva problem. I am sure it is not EFB or other know "apis bacterial" problem, cause i have send already several times frames to test. The test shows a bacteria associate with decomposed milk (do not remember now the name and I am not at Chile close to my notes). I reckon it is an oportunistic bacteria that colonize after the larva is dead. We also have a strange larva problem when we are pollinating avocado. This is we reckon associated with the irrigation (fertigation) water. What about the water on your area? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:24:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides- apistan In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10806270947l22302010rb8db2be9ed737138@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Juanse & All, Thanks for the information about the decomposed milk bacteria.! The water could be a problem as everything around me is flood water. 1300 acres went under today. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:49:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DAVID ADAMS Subject: Re: Beyond the Honeybee In-Reply-To: <508387.50845.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am better off than before, because operating half as many hives means less operating costs.  Does this make any sense? Eric the sideliner in Howe , Texas On paper It makes alot of sense, but in the real world it don't add up. In July of 2006 I was paying 1.16 a gallon for diesel, today I got it for 4.76. The best price I seen in 2000 when the price spiked was 1.50 a pound for white honey. The best real price I know of so far is 1.50 a pound ,even though Bob H. posted some 1.60 to 70 prices being mentioned. And the sucky part ,half of the honey I produce is bakery,which sucks in price so far compared to the top end. I passed up most of the citrus crop here in FlA/USA to make back numbers still not made up from the winter of 2006 CCD losses. So there's lots of variables to the picture, if I can make another 100 percent split of the outfit late summer and the prices hold until next year, myself I might benifit them. I'm commited to pollination,long term, and have to have numbers,honey prices won't hold ( or have never held) and the crops are not dependable. Whereas if I deliver the contracted bees, I get the contracted price. Short answer to does it make sense,yes it will help for sure, but it is not as good as you would think. You have to love this line of work or you'd be doing something else alot more stable. Where there are beekeepers,there are fruits and nuts **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:00:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Honey Bee Viruses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >"The problems I see in my yards now is nosema ceranae and to be honest some >virus issues in my opinion I which should not be seeing as I have had >excellent varroa control this spring. Although only an occasional cell or >two I see larva problems and only in late stage larva. Four beeks looked at >what I am seeing and all had different opinions. Two thought possibly stone >brood and two not sure but all thought was not European foul brood." > >Bob Sounds like sacbrood. Sacbrood is much more widespread than most beekeepers realize. It has been found at levels of 80 to 90% in honey bee workers, 80% in pupae and nearly 50% in varroa mites. They pick it up by cleaning out dead larvae, and feed it to the each other and the healthy larvae. Many reports state that it is inapparent or even that it has no effect on the adults. Bailey stated more than 50 years ago that honey bees infected by sacbrood show very high levels of the virus in the brain and that this could lead to premature foraging and colony collapse. In my opinion Bailey, Ball and the rest have accurately described much of what we are now seeing. In England they are saying that hives are failing with 10% the number of mites than was formerly required to kill them. Obviously, it is not the mites that are killing them; they serve only as an indicator of the health of the colony. High mites levels mean virus levels are probably already out of hand. An infestation of sacbrood can be easily overlooked if the bees are quickly removing the dead larvae (by eating it) but if it is accumulating in the bees' brains, it could have far-reaching effects such as confusion, disorientation, premature foraging, failure to return to the hive, etc. Brenda Ball stated in 2004: > There is increasing evidence that the global spread of Varroa destructor has resulted in a significant change in the type and prevalence of viruses causing mortality in honey bee colonies. This is primarily because the mite has provided new routes of transmission for naturally occurring, endemic virus infections. > In mite infested colonies a much more successful strategy for honey bee viruses would be to multiply within the host without causing a rapidly fatal infection. The longer a severely infected individual survives in the population, the more opportunity the mite has to feed on that individual and transfer the virus to a new host. This now explains the almost ubiquitous occurrence of deformed wing virus. > After the turbulent years of dramatic colony losses that accompanied the arrival of varroa, have we now reached a relatively stable situation again where both mite and predominant virus can be managed, or could the decline in certain types of virus leave a niche open for opportunistic invaders? Only time will tell, but we should certainly be alert and prepared for more trouble with viruses. Also, in 2004, SUMPTER and MARTIN wrote: > large mite populations have been responsible for vectoring bee viruses between honey bees. The viruses, which previously spread relatively slowly and caused colony mortality extremely rarely, are now thought to be responsible for the world-wide death of millions of mite-infested honey bee colonies. > While the link between mites, viruses and colony collapse has been established, there is not as yet a full understanding of why and when a Varroa -infested honey bee colony will collapse. In particular, the important question in determining the mite load that will cause a virus epidemic and colony collapse has remained largely unanswered. Yan Ping Chen in 2007: > SBV is the most widely distributed of all honey bee viruses. Since its first identification in the United States in 1913, infection of SBV has been found on every continent where A. mellifera honey bees are present SBV infection has been associated with varroa mite infestation. SBV was detected in large amount of adult bees from varroa mite–infested colonies SEE: Honey Bee Viruses by Yan Ping (Judy) Chen and Reinhold Siede The dynamics of virus epidemics in Varroa -infested honey bee colonies by D. J. T. SUMPTER and S. J. MARTIN Prevalence and Seasonal Variations of Six Bee Viruses in Apis mellifera L. and Varroa destructor Mite Populations in France Diana Tentcheva, et al Virus infection causes specific learning deficits in honeybee foragers by Javaid Iqbal and Uli Mueller* Intricate transmission routes and interactions between picorna-like viruses (Kashmir bee virus and sacbrood virus) with the honeybee host and the parasitic varroa mite by Miaoqing Shen, Liwang Cui, Nancy Ostiguy and Diana Cox-Foster Diana Cox-Foster **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:16:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: the life span of the honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline If one were to ask how long a bee lives, the typical answer is six weeks: the first three weeks performing in-hive tasks (such as nursing, comb building, and honey processing), and the last three weeks for out-hive tasks (foraging). This textbook answer is misleading in several ways. First, it is clearly referring only to worker bees, and not queens or drones (who live a few years and a few weeks, respectively). Second, there is a lot of variation in worker lifespan and the tasks they perform. Some bees can start foraging less than a week old and die soon thereafter, while others may never forage and live for 60 days or more. Third, such an answer refers to the typical lifespan of bees during the active season. This neglects how long bees can live during the non-active months, which in some regions of the country can last as long as half the year. So-called "winter" bees are reared in the late fall and stay alive in the winter cluster for months, far longer than the lifespan quoted from the standard textbook. What's interesting about these long-lived winter bees is that they are not different genetically from their summer-time sisters; that is, a queen lays the same types of eggs sired by the same types of drones during both the summer and late autumn. What is different about the winter bees is that they are different physiologically, so that their internal cellular machinery causes the workers to have markedly different characteristics. These differences are manifested by the interaction with the environment, so that genes are differentially turned on or turned off depending on the bee's surroundings to create these physiololgical differences. In particular, the main stimulus for winter bees to develop is a queenright colony without any brood for their first 3 to 4 weeks of adult life. If the brood environment has such a profound effect on a winter bee's physiology, then it stands to reason that other major environmental factors may effect this process as well. Most notably, parasitism by the varroa mite might well cause significant changes in how winter bees develop at the end of the summer. It is this effect that a research team lead by Gro Amdam from Norway investigated in a study published in the Journal of Economic Entomology. Amdam, G. V., K. Hartfelder, K. Norberg, A. Hagen, and S. W. Omholt. (2004). Altered physiology in worker honey bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) infested with the mite Varroa destructor (Acari: Varroidae): a factor in colony loss during winter? Journal of Economic Entomology, 97: 741-747. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:14:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Simms Subject: Re: Beyond the Honeybee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My outlook was too simplistic, indeed.=A0 I guess my point is that everythi= ng in the market place is dynamic.=A0 When conditions across the marketplac= e make it harder for supply to meet demand, prices for the commodity or ser= vice will be able to increase.=A0 Some beekeepers will drop out because the= y fail to adapt to increasing pressures, but those that stay onboard and ad= apt will ask higher prices for their goods (honey) and services (pollinatio= n contracts), likely becoming more lucrative.=A0 Neither bees nor beekeepin= g=A0are=A0in=A0danger of going away.=A0 Beekeepers will have to adapt to th= e new environment, as the bees invariably have to do every time a new patho= gen or predator takes up residence in their environment.=A0 Bees are remark= ably adaptive, and so are beekeepers.=A0 I don't see the sky falling any ti= me soon.=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:21:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/06/2008 18:08:42 GMT Standard Time, pollinator@EMBARQMAIL.COM writes: After all it is a new problem ,isn't it?????? On 3 occasions over the last decade or so, the most recent being about 3 years ago, I have found hives that had on the last inspection been very prosperous, having yielded an above-average honey crop, being reduced in the most extreme case to 4 workers and a queen; the next worst about a dozen and a queen and the third, and most recent, maybe a hundred or so. In that case I re-located the queen to a nearby hive that had need of one and she did well there until replaced the next season. Although it was the wasp season there was no sign of robbing in any of these hives which were in separate apiaries. In each of these hives I had delayed treating for Varroa (although knowing that they were heavily infested) because I prefer to take my honey crop later than most people do in order to enable the bees to take down sufficient stores and pack around the diminishing brood nest to see them through the winter. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:22:25 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Beyond the Honeybee In-Reply-To: <508387.50845.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ERic Simms: if I lose half of my hives, make only > half as much honey but sell it for double the price that I > used to get for honey, I am better off than before, because > operating half as many hives means less operating costs. > Does this make any sense? Reply: No it does not! for gasoline prices have more then doubled since honey was $1.50 even a few years back, but honey has not. On top of that container prices are going up, and labor costs are going up for working our bees and equipment. HFCS will be probably double this fall for feeding if not more, so don't see gain there as much, for taking honey and then feeding back artificial stuff; and other sugars will be up also do to increased costs of producing and manufacture. Plus what you going to do with equipment not in use now? Let it rot or try to reuse it. Either way in end it will cost to set aside or replace, or redo with increased prices for paint and materials. So how are you better off, unless working in backyard and using containers secondhand somehow for selling honey? and if selling retail above $1.50, will your increased selling price balance out the getting for selling it? Certainly cannot see what you are saying, unless less work to you means physically better while all pricing across the board in our daily lives has now increased, while honey I don't think really has for main industry. Somehow you are looking too narrow and not seeing whole picture. But just my take. d- **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:46:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Reducing swarming (was Plastic vs wood for sustainability) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/06/2008 16:22:47 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: Sometimes when fdn is introduced into the brood nest, they just fill it with honey which defeats the whole plan which is to give more room for the queen in the brood area If the foundation (or my preference is for starter strips) is introduced not into the brood nest but at the edge, between the last frame of brood and the next one which often contains lots of pollen this will draw lots of young workers away from the brood nest itself in order to produce wax. This reduces congestion in the laying area which can be a cause of poor distribution of queen substance, leading to swarming. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:24:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides- apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dean asks: 1. why do beekeepers feel justified in asking everyone else (farmers, homeowners) to reduce their pesticide usage to "help the bees", yet never ever consider chemical contamination in the hive is in the hands of the beekeeper? Same reason that when I am on the interstate the guy in front of me should "get the heck out of my way" and the one behind me should "stop breathing on my neck." 2. either the bees themselves, or the nectar/honey they take from the hive to pack it into the pollen baskets must be the source of contamination. Of course the bees have miticides on them. And they transfer it to all items in the hive, including the mites. That's how it works 3. it's one thing if there is some kind of "encapsulated contamination" in the wax...but near lethal levels in the brood should be cause for concern. The important question is not: Are the miticide levels higher than external chemicals -- which they would be, of course! -- BUT -- Are they high enough to cause any harm? No one has shown that they are. They certainly *could* be. Still speculation at this point. 4. how would you respond to a customer who says, "i saw this video online from a bee researcher at penn state. they found that the highest levels of chemical contamination in the comb, bees, brood, beebread, trapped pollen was from chemicals put in the hive by the beekeeper...and they are specifically not testing the honey. i'm concerned that these chemicals are also in the honey." Short answer: Residues of chemicals exist in all food, including so-called organic food. Organic food is not checked for chemical levels on a routine basis so there is no way of comparing it to other foods. Further info: The residues of mite control chemicals in hives is low, not even enough to kill the mites after the end of the treatment period. Most conscientious beekeepers already abandoned the use of fluvalinate and coumaphos, even before they were implicated by Penn State. You will note that they did NOT detect formic acid, oxalic acid or thymol products. Environmental pollution is a serious problem which all beekeepers take dead seriously. But the effect of not treating for mites can be devastating, and can put a beekeeper right out of business. Now, you could stay a beekeeper by buying new bees every year but that is a bit of a cop-out, because you will no doubt be buying bees from someone else who is keeping his bees alive by treating them. The goal is to move away from harmful treatments and toward effective biological control. Everyone has this goal. Some are proposing practical methods (see my 3 part series in the ABJ) and some are content to give advice based upon conjecture and arid speculation. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:03:14 -0400 Reply-To: Stacy L Brockett Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stacy L Brockett Subject: Speaking of Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It looks like a small swarm has taken up residence in my husband's barn... Would anyone like to try and get it (or take a look anyway)? I'm not experienced enough to try, and I already have two hives of my own. He doesn't think they've been there long. Stacy L. Brockett SM3Pines Farm - Canandaigua, NY http://www.smthreepines.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:56:37 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Beyond the Honeybee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...if I lose half of my hives, make only > half as much honey but sell it for double the price that I > used to get for honey, I am better off than before, because > operating half as many hives means less operating costs. > Does this make any sense? I disagree, but for a more simple reason that the others in this thread have offered. While a downsized operation seem "more profitable" at higher honey prices in terms of gross revenues, those suddenly-higher honey prices are more a function of the reduced buying power of a US dollar and low interest rates than anything else, so the price of honey may not stay "high" for long. The dollar is certain to recover someday, but don't ask me when. Further, the higher costs of fuel and other beekeeper needs are ALSO a function of the devalued dollar. So, while the price of honey has doubled, the prices of gas, bread, milk, whiskey, and ammo have more than tripled. There's also interest rates to consider. Jeffrey Frankel is in Economics at Harvard, and he reasons that low real interest rates lower the cost of carrying physical inventories and increase the advantages of speculating in commodities relative to investing in and holding Treasury bills. http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~jfrankel/CP.htm http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~jfrankel/CampbellM&CPnberNov.pdf Note the correlation in the diagram here, cleaned up a bit from Frankel's: http://www.bee-quick.com/reprints/commod_scatter.gif In years when the real US interest rate was lowest, US commodity prices were high relative to other prices. Frankel predicts that "As the Fed funds rate goes back up over the coming year, one can expect commodity prices eventually to come back down." Further still, honey prices have never had much to do with what goes on in North America's beekeeping operations, so one can't expect CCD to have as much impact on honey prices as the usual efforts of China and Argentina to find new ways to sell their honey at any price they can get for it. So, I'd be working hard to keep my hive count stable, and cut my costs by not investing so much time and money in colonies that are clearly not going to produce. This means more frequent "self-grading" of colonies, and a triaging of colonies to replace failing queens and colonies with new genetics. But that's just me - I'm a hard-nose about beekeeping as a business with tangible metrics. Most beekeepers don't even track commodity prices or the relative value of the dollar. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:47:03 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides Comments: cc: jcummins@uwo.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the interest of completely refuting the claims of Joe Cummins about CCD, allow me to debunk two claims at once with one fairly authoritative quote: Here are the two quotes from Cummins: > "Now most apiarists and scientists realize that > pesticides are a factor in CCD". > "Organic agriculture must be widely adopted to > save the honeybee". Here's a quote from the journal "Science", an article titled "The Case Of The Empty Hives" published May 18th, 2007. "Pesticides can't be an explanation for why organic beekeepers are losing their colonies" - Dr. May Berenbaum Here's the article online (watch that linewrap!): http://www.bvs-inc.us/News%20Items/The%20case%20of%20the%20Empty%20Hives %20Science%202007.pdf Also, note that I am copying Joe Cummins on this message in hopes that he will explain his unsupported claims to this group in light of their being well-known to be false statements by even the general lay public for over a year. Via this group, he can explain his position to the legitimate scientific community that is doing the actual work on CCD. If he has any data to back up his claims, I'd sure like to see it, but I expect he has no data at all, as no one who is anyone has ever even heard of this person, let alone sent him samples or traded any data with him. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:48:06 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to confuse matters further, there were anecdotal reports from Italy that pre-dated the German incident, yet made the same claim - that the mere planting of seed-treated corn caused hives to suffer pesticide kills. The headline of the article that caught my eye was "Cominciano le semine, muoiono le api", which translates to "They start sowing, [and the] bees die". The article was written in early April 2008. People who work in toxicology tell me that the allegations of bee kills in Italy from seed treatment products go back a number of years (at least since 2003) and have been aimed at several different products. First it was Gaucho (imidacloprid). Then it was fipronil and thiamethoxam. Now it is Poncho (clothianidin). In the past, the Italian expert panels that have reviewed the evidence, found it insufficient to prove the claims. The German incident seems to be the result of a complex chain of failures ranging from a "glue" that did not hold the pesticide to the seed corn, to a higher-than-usual pesticide dosage to combat a specific pest, and a popular model of seed drill that raised giant dust clouds with blasts of compressed air. All in all, the German incident was essentially a reenactment of a Roadrunner cartoon, where products from Acme Industries fail on Wiley E. Coyote in bizarre and unexpected ways. But the French admit that they banned a pesticide without any evidence at all - that's what the "Precautionary Principle" is all about. And Italy seems to have cried wolf several times. It is strange that Italy would accuse the planting of seed-treated corn of being the cause of pesticide kills well before it actually happened in Germany. It is just such a strange scenario, I don't think that even any of us would have come up with it as "plausible". **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:12:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Germany and France Ban Pesticides- apistan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:24:37 -0400, Peter L. Borst wrote: >The important question is not: Are the miticide levels higher than >external chemicals -- which they would be, of course! -- BUT -- Are >they high enough to cause any harm? No one has shown that they are. >They certainly *could* be. Still speculation at this point. > if you listen closely to the Maryann Frazier video, if I recall, she said the levels of self contamination have approached the LD 50 levels. also we often hear about synergistic potential of miticides and other external contaminants. >Short answer: Residues of chemicals exist in all food, including >so-called organic food. Thats not the point - we can do better and we should as an industry. Is that really what YOU would tell YOUR customer? > You will note that they did NOT detect formic acid, oxalic acid >or thymol products. thats one of the reasons why they are called soft treatments because they don't contaminate the comb. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************