From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:12:47 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9742490A2 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y7M017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0812A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 213543 Lines: 4801 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:00:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: News from Nebraska Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith I am afraid you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was simply pointing out that Mike whom I know would never be characterized as lazy, he is a hard working chum. Why Bush used those words, I have no idea. It struck me as odd, and I just took it from there. Anyway, thanks for your guidance, I hope Aaron reads it too. I want a better list, same as you. Pete ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:34:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: News from Nebraska In-Reply-To: <1844D49C-3AA6-48C2-B54A-5E6F294D0FED@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, really Keith I doubt our mutual friend Michael Bush will take offense. I have been a member of Beesource for a long time both under my real name and an alias. In fact banned for a period and then reinstated for not apologizing to a moderator over using cuss words in a private email. Not for what I said on beesource. Bee-L is pretty tame compared to beesource. I have seen (as you have) some serious bashing of Michael Bush on beesource! Unlike me Michael is a *turn the other* cheek kind of person. I also commend Aaron for his dedication and say I am not the person giving Aaron grief over posts. I will say I am one of the persons others have complained about to Aaron. Aaron deletes plenty of my posts. Which is why sometimes you might wonder why I did not reply to a post aimed at me. My reply was deleted an I did not care enough to try another post. At least we are getting the air cleared before Aaron returns. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 00:39:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/30/2008 5:41:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, dkburp@FRONTIERNET.NET writes: I am well aware that imidicloprid has been around a long time. I am not the one that is fingering it. What I am questioning is the sheer frequency that it is being used and the number of formulations it is used in. Is the teacup full?? That's another issue - I was responding to the statement that claimed that it was a NEW pesticide. That you can now buy it in a hardware store or one of the box stores like Lowe's and Home Depot is a different question. Jerry **************Finally, one site has it all: your friends, your email, your favorite sites. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000006) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:49:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Feeding - formerly Nosema C. In-Reply-To: <234837.62967.qm@web53408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, > I'm thinking a lot of beekeepers harvest as much honey as they can and get > a lot higher price for that honey than the cost of the feed needed later > on to carry the bees over the winter. > However, I may be wrong on this. You are not wrong but another point needs made. keeping large amounts of stored honey on migratory hives does not make sense. Even the way we do things at times we have to leave from one to four stacks of 16 hives off a load to California because of weight. When sending singles to almonds out of Georgia the hives are made up a day or two before shipping. Bees and emerging brood and only enough feed for about two weeks to hold the bees till placed in almonds. 700 hives to a semi load. Every year is different and every pollination is different. Feeding in California *if* the almond bloom is held up is far better in out of states beeks minds than sending 80 pounds of honey a box along with the bees. Migratory hives are only fed when needed. 8 frames of stored honey serves no purpose. Despite what many say its the slow feed coming in ( and fresh pollen) which cause the sleeping winter hive to wake up. What good is a hive in almonds if it has no room to place pollen and nectar? bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 02:39:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Ramona Herboldsheimer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It appears that the Nebraska talk is summarized in this on-line paper: _http://groups.google.com/group/spectre_event_horizon_group/browse_thread/thre ad/28447b5ef2a04598_ (http://groups.google.com/group/spectre_event_horizon_group/browse_thread/thread/28447b5ef2a04598) At the risk of starting a feud, a word of caution, the comments about chalkbrood fungus preventing EFB; stonebrood fungus preventing Nosema need to be considered in the context of the cited references. Like others, I've seen chalkbrood and EFB in hives at the same time; so that statement just doesn't hold up to field observations. The paper by Martha Gilliam that is cited is a good start to understanding the microbiology inside a hive. I accept Martha as an expert and her paper was peer-reviewed. She does talk about the complexity of the microbiological community inside a hive. As such, this is a good reference to the topic. But the next three references to support these two claims are Wiki pages and on-line sources, where authorship is unknown. However, in this case, the cited Wiki page correctly states that fumadil is derived from an Aspergillus fungus and that this drug is used to treat Nosema. Its also correct in stating that stonebrood is associated with several species of Aspergillus fungus. But, the Wiki page does not say that Stonebrood prevents Nosema. That's a jump in logic that isn't supported by the statements in the 'citation', and we don't even know whether the author of the 'cited' Wiki source is an authority (although in this case I'd more or less agree with the Wiki statements). Don't get me wrong, we still don't understand all of the interactions at the microbiology level. For example, there are studies that show that the bacteria Wolbachia alters the reproductive viability of its hosts, and may have other affects and interactions. My objection is to sweeping generalizations based on 'citations' to unknown authors and misquoting of references. Jerry **************Finally, one site has it all: your friends, your email, your favorite sites. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000006) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:24:16 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Fatty acids and EFB (was News from Nebraska) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe wrote > I read in an article in one of the bee mags about 10 or more years ago > that stated chalk brood has some fatty acid known as linoleic acid, which > has antimicrobial activity against bacterial honeybee pathogens. > Linoleic acid is found in in vegtable oils, and in higher amounts in > peanut oil. You can perhaps google linoleic acid and foulbrood and get > some info. I remembered that there was some research done in Australia on fatty acids against AFB and EFB. It can be found at http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-028.pdf This study found that linoleic was inactive against EFB. There were some that were and I am not sure where this research is heading. Will have to ask. The article you most likely read is the one by Shimanuki et al which is listed in the references in the above research. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:30:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: de roeck ghislain Subject: Re: News from Nebraska In-Reply-To: <008501c95351$720ef8d0$9d20a88b@user96c8c0908f> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I have heard of chalkbrood supposedly stopping AFB which in my experience is not right. There is some research on this topic by Feldlaufer, Lusby, Knox and Shimanuki, published in Apidologie I posted two URL's about this, but Aaron didn't publish them. Here there are again: http://home.euphonynet.be/archief_bijen/gezondheid/inhibitionAF.pdf and http://home.euphonynet.be/archief_bijen/gezondheid/inhibitionAF2.pdf Ghislain. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 05:53:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: News from Nebraska In-Reply-To: <1844D49C-3AA6-48C2-B54A-5E6F294D0FED@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This has become the biggest sticking point, everyone is quoting so and so as their expert without citing where it was written. No one is really upset with Aaron as much as saying we need to move the level of discussion back up. If you read it in a research article, cite it. If someone wrote it, cite that. If you heard it at the coffee shop, forget it. Michael Bush's review is on-line, the original person should have included that. Dave (usually just lurking) Keith Malone wrote >Here was the spreading of false information, putting a spin on words, >and an outright lie of what was actually wrote by Michael Bush. This >kind of journalism happens on BEE-L enough that it makes my stomach >sick. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:59:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: News from Nebraska In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > * Good luck, I have been asking for them for weeks. I know I should >have been there. Dean told me I had no business talking about Chemical >Free Beekeeping unless I advocated going Cold Turkey, which is their >main thing. I wonder if they insisted that of Mike Palmer: I wasn't going to enter this debate...if that's what it's called. But, since my name was brought up... I was well received at the Nebraska meeting, and felt I had something to offer...for both chemical and non-chemical beekeepers. As I said at the meeting, if you go cold turkey, you're going to lose bees. Wintering nucs with locally adapted queens is your ace in the hole...the only way you can wean your apiary off packaged bee replacements. I'm not one to take sides, and will let the chips fall where they may. "I agree with all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but I never agree with all of the people all of the time." I think Abraham Lincoln said that. "You can be in my dream if I can be in yours." Bob Dylan said that. Mike ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 06:25:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: News from Nebraska MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I posted two URL's about this, but Aaron didn't publish them. You don't say why, but I am sure he had a good reason. Perhaps they came up 404 or were deformed, or the message was otherwise unacceptable? > http://home.euphonynet.be/archief_bijen/gezondheid/inhibitionAF.pdf > http://home.euphonynet.be/archief_bijen/gezondheid/inhibitionAF2.pdf Thank you for the URLS. I will quote the relevant part here to save others from the need of downloading and skimming, and comment below. --- begin excerpt --- The antimicrobial activity of fatty acids and their derivatives, mainly soaps, has previously been demonstrated and reviewed (see Kabara, 1978; and references there-in). While linoleic acid is an important membrane constituent of most ascomy-cete fungi (Weete, 1974, 1980), our isolation of linoleic acid from A apis as an anti-microbial agent is an interesting example of how one bee pathogen - the fungus that causes chalkbrood disease - produces a ubiquitous compound that inhibits the growth of a competing bacterial pathogen. A related fatty acid, termed laetisaric acid (8-hydroxylinoleic acid), has been isolated from a basidiomycete fungus that has been shown to be fungicidal toward sever-al plant pathogenic fungi (Bowers et al, 1986). Currently in the United States, onlyoxytetracycline is approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for the control of both foulbrood diseases of honey bee (Shimanuki, 1990). The activity of linoleic acid against foulbrood bacteria may form the basis of a new, effective and inexpensive control. MF Feldlaufer DA Knox WR Lusby H Shimanuki --- end excerpt --- The research is interesting in that the aim is to find a substance to use as a treatment for AFB. For those who might think that this somehow proves something about the balance of microorganisms in hives, it does nothing of the kind. It is widely known that various micro-organisms are constantly generating a variety of chemicals (oh! oh!) that have negative effects on competing organisms. Actually one way new antibiotics are discovered is by taking a shovelful of dirt and investigating what the various 'bugs' in the sample are doing to one another, and what chemicals they are producing. Occasionally one of those chemicals proves to be useful in that it is minimally toxic to an animal and maximally toxic to a pathogen. Then we have oxytet or Fumigillan. Linoleic acid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_acid is not a particularly strong agent AFAK, nor is it likely to be highly targeted. I realise that some might like to read things into this straightforward piece of work, but all it really says is that there is a potential to use linoleic acid for AFB control. It says nothing about the allegedly perfect and mystical natural state of the many organisms, both beneficial and pathological, inside any given beehive. I suppose one could extrapolate the work to deduce that it may be possible that a particular larva should not be expected to succumb to both AFB and chalkbrood. Maybe I should know, but who is WR Lusby? http://tinyurl.com/5j6o89 allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ --- Wise men profit more from fools than fools from wise men; for the wise men shun the mistakes of fools, but fools do not imitate the successes of the wise. Cato the Elder (234 BC - 149 BC), from Plutarch, Lives ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:48:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Imitating Without Understanding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill >But I am still trying to figure out what Allen wanted us to look at in the >videos. All I saw were very ill behaved bees, identical to the AHB videos I >have seen. Yeah, they were pretty vicious, huh? I mean, if I had that many bees all over my head, I would have left long before that. But the curious part was the complete disconnect between the narration and what we were actually seeing. I showed some non-beekeeping folks and they were completely mystified as to why those people were even staying there. Presented a pretty ugly picture of "beekeeping", I tell you neighbor. (Good thing they have no neighbors, that wouldn't fly in my neighborhood.) pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:42:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: D=?utf-8?Q?=C3=A9j=C3=A0?= Vue All Over Again, Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>But I am still trying to figure out what Allen wanted us to look at in the >>videos. All I saw were very ill behaved bees, identical to the AHB videos >>I have seen. > Yeah, they were pretty vicious, huh? I mean, if I had that many bees all > over my head, I would have left long before that. But the curious part was > the complete disconnect between the narration and what we were actually > seeing. And the rising panic. Anyhow, I try to pull my punches here, and decided to leave the conclusions to the viewer, but I do say what I really think on my site, sometimes, and sometimes I get emails that add to my thoughts... For those people who may think they have hit on something new with the recent discussion of Linoleic acid, etc.: I got to thinking that this felt like déjà vue and punched "Linoleic" into the archive search and found some very good hits going back to 1993. We have been over this a time or two. allen http://honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/styro_hives.htm --- Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana (1863 - 1952), The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:57:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Trashing hives In-Reply-To: <200811292045.mATKW1m2027157@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Have either of you written articles about this procedure in one of the bee mags? > I have not and I do not think one has ever been done. Actually, Jack Griffiths wrote an article on it a decade or so ago, but I don't recall if it was for ABJ or BC. He called it "Yard Trashing" which was (I think) the title of the article. Jack used to participate on BEE-L but I haven't heard from him in quite a while, He was putting HIP (Honey Bee Improvement Program). Anyone know what happened to Jack? Aaron Morris - trying to catch up after taking a break! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:49:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Raised the bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Subscribers, Well, I've caught up with the flood of posts since Friday. First off let me say thanks for all the votes of support. It was not my intent to fish for accolades, I merely wanted to open discussion unfettered for comments on how the list runs. Again, my thanks. I was surprised at the volume of posts. Some took the opportunity to post comments that would never have made it through moderation, which made me think moderation is a good thing. There were the usual responses sent to the list that should have been sent to the list server, and the person who forwarded the entire digest back to the list made me certain that moderation is a good thing. But back to the volume: I was surprised at how it jumped when, moderation was turned off, and how quickly it dropped after I turned moderation back on at 10:30PM EST last evening. To subscribers this might look like the moderators are holding back on approvals, which is not the case. Two snipes have been withheld since last night, and one submission was returned for clarification. Perhaps it's merely coincidence that volume dropped Sunday night as quickly as it jumped Friday evening? Perhaps it was a weekend thing? Also surprising was how few suggestions there were regarding how the list might be changed for the better, making me glad that Jim is on vacation. Mike's suggestion regarding the "Minimal Quoting" guideline is under consideration, but I doubt I will sway much. I did not (nor will I) go back to the sysadmins requesting they reconsider their storage concerns. Resource utilization in the entire state of New York is a very hot topic right now given the dire financial situation on Wall Street and its ripple effect on NY budgets. And as Allen has already pointed out, excessive quoting clogs archive searches, and frankly, excessive quoting is simply lazy writing not worthy of a University environment! I try to be lenient regarding quotes at the same time that I try to hold the line. Some of the flack I catch comes from posters objecting to having an article cut due to quotes, and they offer examples of posts they feel contained excessive quoting. It's a slippery slope. A word about the number of moderators: At one time there were 5. Just as discussion on BEE-L sometimes puts contributors at odds, so too does the occasional disagreement amongst moderators. The 5 have dwindled to 2. There have been "guest" moderators, and some recruits have respectfully declined the offer. At times when I have considered recruiting volunteers, I realize am thankful not to have the added stress of maintaining peace amongst a large number of volunteers. I'm not sure the stress of moderation is worth jeopardizing the friendships that develop. Finally I was reassured by the vote for keeping the discussion informed. As I stated last Friday, there are some topics that come up on BEE-L that although interesting and thought provoking, require at least a modicum (or perhaps a leap) of faith to accept and practice, and said topics have been and continue to be a force that makes sailing on BEE-L less than smooth. Also observed last Friday was the fact that at times so great was the upset that lists splintered off. Witness beesource and Organic Beekeepers. I do welcome cross posting from other groups, and as noted at least some recognize the benefit of the scrutiny applied to ideas posted on BEE-L. I continue to encourage cross posting, but at the same time I feel a need to curtail the level of unsubstantiated claims allowed on BEE-L and request that ideas that remain unsubstantiated return to the forum splintered for their discussion. I'm not picking on any idea in particular here, but what's the difference between CCD and ccd? Answer: ccd is what you get if you rely solely on small cell beekeeping! And please, no flames, it's a joke! My goal is to keep BEE-L running smoothly. I welcome the introduction of what some call "fringe" ideas. But at the same time I recognize a need to present an idea for thought provoking consideration, and if it gets to a point that the idea has been discussed to a point that it obviously requires "faith" beekeeping I will end the discussion. I hope this does not relegate BEE-L to a list solely for stodgy thoughts; I enjoy thought provoking ideas as much as anyone. But at the same time, repeated assertions of unsubstantiated practices do not make them so. When ideas on BEE-L become like shampoo (wash, rinse, repeat) it's time for everyone to move on. If at some time in the future there is reason to reopen the discussion based on newly substantiated facts or research, BEE-L will still be here! Sincere thanks for continued support, Aaron Morris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 22:36:05 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Trashing hives In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341056F2A77@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341056F2A77@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu>, Aaron Morris writes >Actually, Jack Griffiths wrote an article on it a decade or so ago, but >I don't recall if it was for ABJ or BC. Was it not Jack Griffes? He was a good poster and one of my earliest corresponding friends on here, along with another from the same neck of the woods, Joel Govostes. Wonder what became of him as well? http://griffes.tripod.com/HIP1.html -- Murray McGregor ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:26:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Raised the bar In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341056F2BC0@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron just remember you are actually performing a service to hundreds or maybe thousands of readers who do not post but like me, every day for many, many years faithfully read BEE-L Dave ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:47:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Trashing hives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quote:=A0 "Actually, Jack [Griffes] wrote an article on it a decade or so a= go, but I don't recall if it was for ABJ or BC." =A0 "Yard Trashing:=A0 A Quick Way to Make Splits" ABJ=A0 April 1996, page 251-252 =A0 Don't thank me, thank my wife for not throwing my old ABJ's and BC's in the= recycle bin. =A0 Grant Jackson, MO=0A=0A=0A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:39:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Trashing hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yard Trashing: A Quick Way to Make Splits You can read it yourself at http://groups.google.com/group/upstate-new-york-beekeeping PS You don't have to join the group to download the files Pete ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 07:39:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Raised the bar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris wrote: >I welcome the introduction what some call "fringe" ideas. Right. New ideas should never be dismissed because they are new, different or outlandish. But some of the ideas bandied about are not new, and they are still outlandish. An idea that is also not new is chemical free beekeeping. But it does not "belong" to anyone. In fact, I have been interested in this all along, as is anyone who wants to be as "natural" as possible. It must have been ten years ago by now when I first called NOFA to ask them how they defined "organic beekeeping". They said it was impossible to do organic beekeeping in New York State. I replied that if I didn't use chemicals, wasn't *that* organic beekeeping? No, she said, because your bees fly to non-organic crops. Wait, I said, they are working wild plants, like dandelions, black locust, wild cherry, basswood, knotweed, aster, and goldenrod. No crops. You don't know that, she said, with the assurance of a non-beekeeper. My promiscuous little ladies are presumed guilty until proven innocent. Oh well, and I was hoping to charge double for the honey to offset my losses. Pete ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:08:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: truth check (was Raised the bar) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Right. New ideas should never be dismissed because they are new, different or outlandish. But some of the ideas bandied about are not new, and they are still outlandish. What I never see looked at on lists is some of the methods advertized in bee magazines as cure all for our current bee problems. Beeks on lists are quick to jump on Dee and the truly no treatment group when some really suspect treatments are put forth in current bee magazine advertisements. Why not at least discuss some of these advertisements ? If I had time I would make many sellers of these methods and products end up with a red face. Three adds in the December issues are suspect. 1. Full page add in December Bee Culture suggesting each of us place Checkmite in our hives to control small hive beetle (SHB). Add claims checkmite is the only *registered* in hive treatment for SHB. Bob Harrison truth check: Beeks in Florida used the SHB issue to get checkmite a section 18 so the product could be used for varroa control. also: SHB is considered a minor issue with most commercial beeks hardly worth contaminating your hive with coumaphos over. SHB get choumaphos on their bodies and cruise the hive. I imagine many hobby beeks place checkmite in their hives as a preventive year after year after reading those adds. Drench the ground with GoldStar. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:12:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: truth check (was Raised the bar) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >From the bee classifieds: THE CCD SOLUTION: This is the cure you have been waiting for! CCD solution started kits *from* $99. Has anyone tried the CCD solution and want to comment? bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:27:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: truth check (was Raised the bar) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Now my personal favorite. If works even Dee and group may want to forget small cell. Half page color add this month: "The Cyclone" >From pg. 1 of December B.C. " The cyclone and 25% white vinegar is the only *natural* remedy for controlling: 1.tracheal 2.varroa 3.foul brood ( I assume both types) 5.nosema ( I assume both types including N. ceranae) 6.chalkbrood 7.hive beetle (wow) 8.wax moth ( hard to fathom unless you leave the treatment on all the time) 9.larve ( I do not think the adds spelling is correct but believe is meant that the treatment will kill wax moth larva and surprised the author did not say the treatment would control SHB larva) 10.COLONY COLLAPSE DISORDER (forget the 4 million in research and send the money back to congress we have our solution) I am having fun with these posts and not listing the sellers but turn open a ABJ or BC and they are easy to find. Has a member of BEE-L purchased and used the above? Are you happy that the machine does all ten of the above? You beeks looking for a S.A.R.E. project all three I have spoke about would be worth submitting. comments? bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:38:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: truth check (was Raised the bar) In-Reply-To: <072420960D93482DB85656693F5B6F15@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Bob Harrison wrote: > What I never see looked at on lists is some of the methods advertized in bee > magazines as cure all for our current bee problems. I don't know. Do a search in Bee-L for "snake oil". Most recently, I trashed the swamp water cure, and I have only stayed away from Nozevit because I think the Croatians deserve a break. All the lemon grass oil in the world isn't going to fix our problems, either, IMHO -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:12:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: truth check In-Reply-To: <200812021512.mB2DcCG5016866@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't think there has ever been an implied "seal of approval" on any ad placed in any magazine. All one can assume for sure is the advertiser paid the bill. To collect in one place the three ads Bob picked out, they were: 1. Checkmite to control small hive beetle (SHB), 2. CCD solution, and 3. "The Cyclone" (white vinegar fogger?) Personally I have tried none of the above. I took a very public stand when Checkmite was first released stating I'll watch my bees die before I put coumaphos in my hives. Given what we know now about comb contamination I am glad I stuck to my guns. CCD Solution: Is it the stuff described at: http://www.theccdsolution.com/CCD%20Laminated%20Instructions.pdf ? Again, I'm skeptical. First, how can there be a solution to a problem we don't understand!? And yes I realize CCD Solution refers to a liquid solution not an answer to the CCD problem, although the ad infers that the solution is the solution! The web page doesn't list prices, but the circles of treatment using the various different formulations of the solution seem to me to border on absurdity! Spraying (the hive, 10ft, 50ft, throughout the area) seems prohibitive. I certainly can't imagine spraying that area with my garden SprayMaster! And the other recommendations are a balance of sound beekeeping practices, best case practices (if practicable), and simply outlandish! And the recommended treatment area of 2 acres hardly seems like a forage area my bees will respect. This is a case where I would welcome evaluations from the Organic Beekeepers group. Dee, are you still listening? The Cyclone: Is this the vinegar fogger? Again, no personal experience, but I understand through the grapevine that many are offered on Ebay. So yes Bob, caveat emptor! Readers should realize that the trade rags exist to make money. They need ads to turn profits. I hope Joe and Kim will correct me if I'm wrong, but as I already wrote, I doubt an ad in their magazine implies an official endorsement. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:28:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: California pollination and feeding strategies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, Bob H. posted that some Georgia guys prepare their bees for almonds and send them in singles to get more bees on a truck and limit the feed to get more bees out. It is one strategy that can maximize profit and has merit. We send our bees(doubles) out of Michigan in January heavy as hell for a Michigan winter. We only get 380 on a truck...but we don't have to worry or chase them around with feed. They come back ready to split into two. Some years they are light and full of brood and some years heavy and full of brood when they return. But in the final analysis, it is a program that works very well for us. We also have big clusters and get the $$$$. It does costs more per unit, but it costs less per unit in maintenance costs and losses due to starvation, etc. Did I mention that we don't even go to California to take care of them? We all go to Florida and raise bees and make Tupelo honey and have a ball. I always appreciate Bob's posts and his wisdom of experience in the trenches. I just wanted to mention a different approach, and as often said in beekeeping and religion, "there are many paths through the woods". see ya, K ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:16:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: truth check In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA34105781EE7@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I don't think there has ever been an implied "seal of approval" on any ad placed in any magazine. I am sure Aaron is correct and than Aaron for detailing my post! beekeeping history: Many of us Old timers remember the stir caused with the full page color adds by "Huck Babcock". I am sure both Joe G. & Kim F. does also! For those maybe not even born back then Huck was a real "Huckster". Huck took thousands of dollars for queens and packages and did not produce the packages or the queens most of the time. Huck claimed his queens were the best around in his full page adds. Huck had the largest and most colorful adds by far. The other sellers of queens & packages only had small adds. When you were lucky enough to catch Huck by phone he always had a song and dance and would say you would get your queens or packages next or he had a long waiting list but you would be moved to the head of the line. Many times the conversation would end fast as Huck would say your order was going to be sent the next day. You got off the phone with a smile on your face which the next week would be a frown and trying to contact Huck again! Now folks this went on for several years and each month complaints were sent to the editors of the bee mags. Finally I believe the mags quit running Hucks adds. *then* Huck came back after a short period with new full page adds with a different apiary name. I think "Blue Ridge Apiaries" and convinced the mags he had turned over a new leaf. A few months after the full page color adds started running the same complaints started again. Send money but no queens or packages! After awhile the mags quit running his adds and that was the last I heard of Huck Babcock. Huck Babcock is a name old timers all remember but not for beekeeping achievements. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:38:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Leadership MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/11/2008 23:24:20 GMT Standard Time, BeeResearch@AOL.COM writes: If the bees are short of good quality pollen, and if the bees collect corn pollen in its place, than perhaps we might propose that the difference is simply a substandard diet? Perhaps the problem is caused indirectly by the use of broad leaf herbicides that eliminate nearly all plants except the desired crop. This leaves the bees (and all other pollinators and creatures that live off them) with nothing but the farmer's crop for sustenance. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:09:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: truth check (was Raised the bar) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob mentioned: > "The Cyclone" There are 19 hits for "vinegar fogger" in the Bee-L archives going back nearly a decade, and in the interests of keeping the peace, I should simply note that despite 8 years of advertising, the product has failed to attract any following of enthusiastic beekeepers. This seems unusual given the very wide range of products and practices that do (or did) have "a following". As a warning to others, I recall a report that a beekeepers association was being sued over a newsletter report on a demo of that product in Indiana some years ago. It is not clear if the manufacturer filed suit against the beekeeper association or merely threatened to do so, but even threatening to sue an entity with no appreciable assets also seems "unusual". ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:41:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: California pollination and feeding strategies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirk said: We send our bees(doubles) out of Michigan in January heavy as hell for a Michigan winter. We only get 380 on a truck...but we don't have to worry or chase them around with feed. They must be heavy to only get 380 on a semi. We have never sent a load from Missouri with less than 448. 480 is possible if the bees have only about a months worth of feed. The semi's we use have a scale on front and back so we know the weight right at the loading point. We have been clearing *at least* a $100 per hive so lets see what the difference might be on sending in January with less feed. Kirk 380 = 38,000 448= 44,800 or $6800 made to pay a California beek to feed a semi load of bees once *if needed*. 3.47 a gallon for sucrose X 448 = $1554.56 plus a couple hundred for the California beek= $approx. 1754.56 $6800 -1754.56 =5245.44 over $5000 in your pocket. We have never had to feed a load of 448 when sent and we fed three semi loads only twice when sent in November one year. Unless 380 is all the hives you are sending I would adjust weight to get at least fourteen tiers or 448 hives to a semi. I am speaking doubles. I keep a calculator close by at all times. I have had a CDL since I was 18 years old (when the age for such was 18). Have drove semi's all my life. Go four high and send a load to California. Those hives do not need to be that heavy. In Georgia beeks take around 1800 double hives and trash into 1400 singles full of bees. Get top dollar as at least 8-9 frames of bees. One frame of honey usually plus what's around the brood. Makes two semi loads of 700. has been working for years! bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:22:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: California pollination and feeding strategies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kirk & All, Kirk might need to run heavy if he brings his hives back to Minnesota out of almonds and the weather is to cold to feed on return. March in Minnesota may be too cold to feed bees. We can always get feed on in late March in Missouri. Last week of March is our return date. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 17:10:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: ads and posts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Not a big deal, but there is a difference between ads in bee publications and posts on this list that promote practices that may or may not work. We should not bother to try to refute ads because they have their own forum (letters to the editor) while the posts here are directly to those on this list. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:47:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Mated Queens vs. Cells.Peter B & Bob H. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob H and Peter B both stated in previous post that if queen cells were already present that there were at least times that the hive would "honor" the cells already made. Peter then stated that sometimes bees would hold queens in their cells for some period of time. I think this is fascinating and didnt know of it. Is it common?Do the queens die in the cells? etc More info on this would be appreciated as I have never personally observed it. this isnt a challenge, simply a desire to become a more informed beekeeper. Thanks to you both, Aaron, I also am thankful for this forum. and although we have had some minor disagreements I have also told you privately that I appreciate what you do. I dont follow some of the threads too closely because I find out that if I get too caught up in them I will catch myself walking across the yard mumbling incoherently :) John Horton N Alabama ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:54:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: truth check (was Raised the bar) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What I never see looked at on lists is some of the methods advertized in > bee magazines as cure all for our current bee problems. Beeks on lists are > quick to jump on Dee and the truly no treatment group when some really > suspect treatments are put forth in current bee magazine advertisements. Yes, Bob, but they don't ever post here or interject their 'solution' into unrelated threads repeatedly. I, for one, have great respect for Dee, and we have spent a very great deal of time examining her ideas. All we ask is for truth and balance, clear and accurate citations -- and answers to simple questions we have asked over and over which have been promised, but never delivered. Allen ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:19:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Mated Queens vs. Cells.Peter B & Bob H. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John Horton wrote: >More info on this would be appreciated as I have never personally observed it. this isnt a challenge, simply a desire to become a more informed beekeeper. Oof. I guess we've been a bit argumentative as of late, I supposed I deserved that. Moving along, when a hive makes preparations to swarm, one sees a lot of things that aren't described in the basic books. In fact, if you keep bees by the book, one is apt to not see many of the more interesting things because one is not looking for them. According to the book, bees raise cells in preparation to swarm, the swarm goes, one virgin kills the others, takes over, and the hive settles back down. So we're supposed to cut the queen cells and prevent swarming. My first mentor told me that cutting queen cells was a waste of time because they have already made up their mind to swarm at that point and all you do is remove all the best cells (the most obvious ones) only to miss some crummy little cell in a corner somewhere which goes on to be the new queen. Fact is, many hives which prepare to swarm, do not actually swarm. But back to our topic, imprisoned queens. I have seen these in various states. As you know, the queen chews her way out of the cell. Sometimes she will crawl back inside looking for something to eat (the little nut of royal jelly in there). The bees may add wax to the end of the cell to prevent her from hatching or occasionally they will seal it back up after she crawls in there. I think it makes perfect sense for the bees to hold some queens while the earlier ones duke it out for the top position, because they may kill each other. Also, virgins are frequently lost on mating flights. So the question remains: why don't all hives keep spare queens trapped in this way? And, yes, occasionally they are kept locked up too long and starve to death. This and more will be described in my book, "A lifetime with the bees". If I ever write one. ; ) Pete ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:13:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Mated Queens vs. Cells.Peter B & Bob H. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob H and Peter B both stated in previous post that if queen > cells were already present that there were at least times > that the hive would "honor" the cells already made. This is reliably the case, as producing a queen is a very expensive effort for a hive, and while the hive certainly may produce multiple queen cells in their effort to produce swarms or hedge their bets in a supercedure, they gain nothing by destroying cells just because an additional cell has magically appeared, placed there by the beekeeper. Just as requeening is sometimes frustrated by the presence of a second queen in the hive to be requeened, introducing queen cells would be frustrated by the presence of any existing queen cells. > Peter then stated that sometimes bees would hold > queens in their cells for some period of time. > I think this is fascinating and didnt know of it. > Is it common? Yes. The delay of queen emergence is prompted by the queen piping of the first queen to emerge. This is likely what will happen to your introduced queen cell if existing queen cells are not removed. If the first queen emerges, mates, returns from the mating flight, and looks undamaged, the bees are likely to accept her. Your queen emerges later, and likely leads a swarm out the door. So much for consistent genetics in the yards. The instinctive rationale for the bees is to avoid the "virgin queens fighting to the death" scenario which so many people like to talk about and photograph, but is so wasteful for the bees, hence the whole complex "pipe/quack" scheme. The delay also makes sense from the standpoint of producing multiple swarms. Timing is everything. > Do the queens die in the cells? Not that I've ever read. Clearly, there is a limit to how long a queen can remain confined. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:19:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: feeding for California strategies....more Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, Bob H. is right on with sending more bees per load and getting more money as a strategy to make more money. But as he mentioned in his second post....our bees return to Michigan with snow still on the ground and the weather is unstable and still too cold to reliable feed. There is nothing I hate more than bees starving. Now the upside of sending bees in doubles heavy with honey and feed. 1) We don't go to Georgia with all the inherent costs of labor, fuel, housing, breakdowns, equipment wear, etc. That costs money and has to be subtracted off the calculated return. Big money off the profit margin. 2) Bees in doubles return jam packed with bees. That's two full boxes of bees and feed still in the box. That has value. 3) The Bees return in cold weather and are self sufficient until the weather settles. Then we have the return in the ability to split as desired, which is not only a benefit for us, but has value. We sold many nucs to local beekeepers, refilled all our dead units, and made up more hives to account for the eventual decline in numbers over the course of a normal summer. I won't attempt to put all this in numbers, but just want to point out the many different ways to manage one's bees, including lifestyle choices in the pursuit of enjoyment of one's profession. BTW, I'm always interested to hear of new ideas and approaches to managing bees, Bob. It's good to keep an open mind and try new ideas and techniques. If you get in the panhandle of Florida in the winter or spring, stop in and visit. See ya, k ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:45:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sometimes, the number of levels of wheels within wheels (a la Ezekiel 1:15) gets a little complexified. So, Bob's "truth check" seems to need a "fact check". But its complicated. Yes, it is hard to slog through all this. It should be. It was hard to write. :) > ...ad suggesting each of us place Checkmite in our hives > to control small hive beetle (SHB). Ad claims checkmite > is the only *registered* in hive treatment for SHB. > Beek[eeper]s in Florida used the SHB issue to get checkmite > a section 18 so the product could be used for varroa control. No, that's not right - Back in 1999, Florida pulled a very cute gambit, and was able to convince the EPA to allow a Section 18 for coumaphos use on BOTH varroa and SHB. See Malcolm's report from that time here: http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis99/apjan99.htm Several other states followed Florida's lead, among them NY, which got the same "special exemptions" from the EPA. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fx8jn or http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/cadusafos-cyromazine/coumap hos/index.html Where you can see that NY copied the Florida Gambit in 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 The basic problem was that under the EPA's regulations, only one "Section 18" product was allowed at any one time in any one state for any one pest, and both Api-Life and Checkmite were being sold under Section 18s, forcing states to choose between them. But it should be clear to even the casual observer that one wants to ALTERNATE one's treatments so as to avoid creating resistance, but the painful, lengthy, and expensive "Section 3" full approval process is painful, lengthy, and expensive, and the beekeeping market is not large enough to justify the expense of a "Section 3" registration unless one can utilize the lower-cost "IR4" program, and even then, it is a painfully slow process. Hence, the "Florida Gambit". But it was still disingenuous in the extreme to allow coumaphos anywhere near a beehive. At the time, anyone with a Gas Chromatograph could see the residues in wax, yet the Section 18 defined coumaphos use as a "non-food" use. No tolerances were set for coumaphos in either honey or beeswax, yet the residues were measurable with even the most primitive and obsolete gear after even a single use. The only reason that Checkmite was needed was that Api-Life was viewed as "risky" in that it was temperature-dependent, and the performance curve had not been plotted with any authority, which made for uncertainty. Some people killed bees with Thymol. The current situation is that Section 3s exist for Apistan (fluvalinate), Mite-Away II (formic acid), Api-Life VAR (thymol, menthol and eucalyptus oil) and Sucrocide ("sucrose octonaote esters", which I think has been generally found to be ineffective). But there is a groundswell of Oxalic Acid dribblers out there, and this unregistered product seems to offer the best mix of low risk to the beekeeper, low cost, decent control, and no residues. Irony. > SHB get choumaphos on their bodies and cruise the hive. They do? Why are they not killed by the contact? > I imagine many hobby beeks place checkmite in their hives > as a preventive year after year after reading those adds. I think hobby beekeepers are more concerned about the use of an organophosphate on "moral" grounds, but perhaps the hobby beekeepers I know are more high-minded than most. > Drench the ground with GoldStar. GUARDstar. GoldStar is a Korean appliance maker. :) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:43:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: truth check MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't think there has ever been an implied "seal of approval" on any ad > placed in any magazine. All one can assume for sure is the advertiser > paid the bill. Some might appreciate the article in the right sidebar at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/4dot9/, written quite a while ago, regarding commercialism and consumerism, bee product suppliers, and the evolution of beekeeping practice Although I have been a commercial beekeeper, and understand the need to make a living, I do have great sympathy with those who think we have been led astray. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/4dot9/ --- "Cast off the shackles of this modern oppression and take back what is rightfully yours, because as William Shakespeare never wrote, 'Life is but a bullring, and we are but matadors trying to dodge all the horns.'" Matthew Clayfield ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:58:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As always James is a full of interesting facts. So what would it take to get Checkmite delisted and the tolerance in wax and honey to near zero? It would appear to me that taking this material away would have nothing but positive implications for honeybees in the USA. I have written Mann Lake and Dadant about this and never received any answers. I included this paper http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-08162007-092313/ as a supporting reference. Why is the industry silent on this while waiting with bated breath for the silver CCD bullet? Not one bee organization or supply house has stepped up to the plate. James, I would love to hear your take on this. My sense is that the high level of supercedure in mated queens from large producers many beekeepers have reported in the last 8 years or so could be caused by miticide contamination as discussed in the reference. The upside potential for delisting would appear to be widespread and very positive. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 02:10:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: truth check In-Reply-To: <53F4EEF9D9FB485A8E1823B7F60E0D95@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For sure comertial beekeeping more than the biology of the bees is proportional to the logistics of the boxes... -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 03:19:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Canada Honey Crop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/calgarybusiness/story.html?id=3a6f2c52-44a7-4033-b540-0e2dddb18495 Eric Beauchesne, Canwest News ServicePublished: Monday, November 24, 2008 Canada's productivity slump has spread to bees and maple trees, but don't blame the workers, or worker bees, as it was mostly the weather's fault. Canada produced 28 million kilograms of honey this year, down 10 per cent fromthe31 million kilograms produced in 2007, Statistics Canada says, noting that the average yield per colony was only 48 kilograms, more than 4.5 kilograms less than last year. The decline was especially steep in honey-rich Alberta, which generates over one-third of Canadian honey out-put, and where production plunged by one-quarter. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 03:23:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Veterinarian uses honey on injured sea turtles Comments: cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alejandra_L=F3pez_Pazos?= , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ignacio_Del_R=EDo?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/4040614/ Veterinarian uses honey on injured sea turtles Posted: Nov. 27, 2008 JEKYLL ISLAND, Ga. =97 Months after Duffy suffered grievous cuts from a boa= t propeller, the 75-pound loggerhead sea turtle circles her tank flashing glimpses of the deep wound her veterinarians have plugged with what looks like some sort of milky, mystery paste. The sticky stuff vets at the Georgia Sea Turtle Center have used to seal Duffy's wound may have saved her life. It's a new treatment for injured sea turtles that has roots in ancient Rome -- and it's about as low-tech as medicine gets. The mystery paste is actually beeswax from a mashed-up honeycomb, generousl= y coated with honey. --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:01:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: What would it take to get Checkmite delisted? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Why is the industry silent on this > Not one bee organization or supply house has stepped up to the plate. Because this is one of the ways to deal with an emergency varroa infestation and with SHB. Used as part of IPM, it can save a beekeeper from large losses. This especially true for migratory beekeepers who may move and suddenly find a huge problem, and the same applies to stationary beekeepers who have a migratory come in. There are many differing subgroups in beekeeping, and the needs of some are different from others. The suppliers and industry try to serve them all. I hear a lot of suggestions that a one-size-fits-all solution should be applied. Unfortunately there are too many differing circumstances for that to be practical so we wind up with a compromise that may not really be that good for anybody, but oppresses the fewest people the least. Many may not like migratory but if it were not for them and the work they do in the almonds and other crops, beekeeping would be long forgotten by the governments and funding authorities. Anyhow, one of the main problems is that people get to thinking that an emergency treatment like Checkmite+ should be routine. (I am not an apologist for Checkmite+. I have never used it and never will). > while waiting with bated breath for the silver CCD bullet? Not sure if you are associating Checkmite+ with CCD? AFAIK, nobody yet knows what CCD is. Am I wrong? In an ideal world there would be no Checkmite+ -- or CCD. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ --- "One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." Elbert Hubbard ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:29:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: News from Nebraska Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen asked: > Maybe I should know, but who is WR Lusby? http://tinyurl.com/5j6o89 >From BeeFungus.pdf "Further tests confirmed that the A. Apis fungus produced a substance that inhibited both types of foulbrood. ARS entomologist Dr. Mark F. Feldlaufer, of the Insect Neurobiology and Hormone Lab in Beltsville, later isolated and purified the substance. William R. Lusby, a chemist at that lab, identified it". FWIW. allen ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:14:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" In-Reply-To: <002c01c9557f$a175f6c0$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, After reading your post it seems we are saying the same thing except maybe you pulled some information from the net ( as always) and I was on the front lines of the situation back then > So, Bob's "truth check" seems to need a "fact check". Lets let the BEE-L readers decide. First hand knowledge or information pulled off the net. > No, that's not right - Back in 1999, Florida pulled a > very cute gambit, and was able to convince the EPA to > allow a Section 18 for coumaphos use on BOTH varroa and SHB. I traveled to DeLand, Florida in fall 1998 to look at small hive beetle (in archives) and advise the beekeeper with the first find. Have you ever seen a hive infested with small hive beetle (SHB) Jim? No need to answer as really does not matter but I have seen plenty in many states. We had no effective control in SHB 1998. It seems that neither Jim nor Aaron have ever used checkmite so let me shed some light for those reading. The real beekeeping history of the time. The internet can provide information for those searching but to get all your information from the net can lead to misinformation. At the time of the small hive beetle find in DeLand ,Florida ( town I was raised in ) the beekeeping industry was losing a huge number of hives to varroa resistant to fluvalinate. In fact one Georgia researcher said apistan only killed 2% of the varroa in his tests. Florida was seeing fluvalinate resistant varroa ( apistan -fluvalinate for newbees) as was most of the commercial beeks in the U.S. After all Apistan had been in use since the first and the only legal control other than Mitacur (amatraz) for a few months followed by a strip recall. I would love to share the behind the scenes on that story but better not. I know many beeks (other than myself) do not have a copy of"The Varroa Handbook" published in 1988 but the book lists the top 100 controls effective to control varroa. Remember beeks in Europe had been fighting varroa for years. Coumaphos was listed next to fluvalinate as the next best possible control and was in use in Italy where the Italians had fluvaliante resistant varroa. Commercial beeks sought advice from many researchers and also the Italian beeks which had been using a coumaphos based strip. Fluvalinate use and coumaphos use followed what was done in Europe exactly. I in fact spoke out against the industry using both at the time because of possible long term problems. Similar to the neonicotinod issue of today I had no proof coumaphos would cause problems so was told to shut up at gatherings when I raised the issue. Proof would come later. > But it was still disingenuous in the extreme to allow > coumaphos anywhere near a beehive. Hind site is always 20-20 Jim but you were not in the circle making the decisions nor needed a cure for the problems facing the collapse of our commercial beekeeping industry. Your opinion was popular with beeks not making a living from bees but not with those needing a cure for fluvaliante resistant varroa. At the time coumaphos was being used in Italy ( I think for around 3 years) without reported problems. Strips from Italy were tested ( as finally registered under section 18) in experiments to control SHB and were found to help but not kill *all* small hive beetle and in fact some SHB seemed unaffected and tracked the coumaphos all over the hive BUT not different than bees tracking the powder all over the hive when used in the hive to control varroa. Tests on hives over threshold with varroa reveled the most potent varroa killer ever seen. Fact. I have seen over 3,000 varroa on a sticky board in a matter of hours. Compare to 200-300 for Miteaway or thymol in 24 hours. One strip would clear a hive of varroa fast. Again no reported contamination problems from Italy *at time time* nor from the maker. The industry had its back to a wall as fluvalinate resistant varroa was the big problem across commercial beekeeping country NOT SHB. SHB was always an overblown problem which never really became the scourge researchers thought it would be. Checkmite was used under a section 18 in Florida and then in other states. Beeks in states which refused to give a section 18 or drug their feet forced beeks to simply travel to states which did have a section 18 to buy checkmite. Get their fellow beeks to purchase for them. Bees became resistant to coumaphos fast which none of us have ever fully understood. Same in Italy. Three years in Missouri. Both fluvaliante and coumaphos are worthless against varroa in most areas and despite what some say trying to return to those products has not worked even after years. I have a friend which tried to return to Apistan after a researcher in Georgia said you could return to apistan after three years. Lost his whole operation. Yes I have used checkmite ( in archives) and I also changed all my brood comb years ago which had ever had fluvalinate or coumaphos used( also in archives). > The only reason that Checkmite was needed was that > Api-Life was viewed as "risky" in that it was > temperature-dependent, and the performance curve > had not been plotted with any authority, which made > for uncertainty. Some people killed bees with Thymol. Totally not true . Thymol was a choice at the time as Steve Forrest was close to registration of Api Life var but checkmite was better suited for hives with high to over threshold varroa loads. Checkimite was always go down in beekeeping history as the most effective varroa control ever used against varroa in my opinion. Its easy for many to critisize beekeeping history as hind site is always 20-20. Beeks have took a few wrong turns but so has the USDA with quarantines etc. Makers and sellers of both apistan & checkmite sang a different song back then saying both would not harm bees or queens and not contaminate wax. Fluvaliante caused drone issues and coumaphos caused queen problems in queen yards. Thanks to Jim for taking the time to pull the section 18 facts off the net. Now you know "the rest of the story" bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:11:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Honey price in time of Depression MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think I have made this question before. Or I did send it to an other list? What ever. Now that USA, EU, Japan and basically the world had accepted we are in a recession almost ready to declare a global depression I wonder what is going to happen with the honey price? Will the demand contract that much that honey won't have a price? Will the prices of sweeteners increase because a lower production, with the subsequent increase in honey price? Any one have any records of what happen with honey price in 1929 -1935? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:43:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: There's a beekeeper near my house MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There's a beekeeper near my property/house; how do I know he or she does not have Africanized bees? > Recently, Florida's beekeepers have been given guidelines (called the Best Management Practices) that if practiced will ensure their bees to be European. If the beekeeper is following the BMPs, then he or she is not keeping Africanized bees, but if the BMPs are not being followed, there is no way to be sure. If you know a beekeeper, encourage him or her to comply with the BMPs. BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR MAINTAINING EUROPEAN HONEY BEE COLONIES 1. This is a voluntary program designed to minimize the threat of Africanized Honey Bees (AHB) in Florida and to dilute any feral AHB populations that may become established in Florida as our gentle managed colonies are our best line of defense against AHB. 2. Beekeepers participating in this program must sign a compliance agreement with the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. 3. Beekeepers will maintain a valid registration with the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services/Division of Plant Industry (FDACS/DPI), and be current with any and all special inspection fees. 4. A Florida apiary may be deemed as EHB (European Honey Bee) with a minimum 10% random survey of colonies using the FABIS (Fast African Bee Identification System) and/or the computer-assisted morphometric procedure, ie. universal system for the detection of Africanized Honey Bees (AHB) (USDA-ID), or other approved methods by FDACS on a yearly basis or as requested. 5. Honey bee colony divisions or splits should be queened with production queens or queen cells from EHB breeder queens following Florida's Best Management Practices. 6. Florida beekeepers are discouraged from collecting swarms that cannot be immediately re-queened from EHB queen producers. 7. Florida Beekeepers should practice good swarm prevention techniques to prevent an abundance of virgin queens and their ready mating with available AHB drones that carry the defensive trait. 8. Maintain all EHB colonies in a strong, healthy, populous condition to discourage usurpation (take over) swarms of AHB. 9. Do not allow any weak or empty colonies to exist in an Apiary, as they may be attractive to AHB swarms. 10. Recommend re-queening with European stock every six months unless using marked or clipped queens and having in possession a bill of sale from a EHB Queen Producer. 11. Immediately re-queen with a European Queen if previously installed clipped or marked queen is found missing. 12. Maintain one European drone source colony (250 square inches of drone comb) for every 10 colonies in order to reduce supercedure queens mating with AHB drones. 13. To protect public safety and reduce beekeeping liability do not site apiaries in proximity of tethered or confined animals, students, the elderly, general public, drivers on public roadways, or visitors where this may have a higher likelihood of occurring. 14. Treat all honey bees with respect. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:40:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: apistan resistance In-Reply-To: <85029F3320DE4BD1BC8AC484B21E47D1@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob and all: > Three years in Missouri. Both fluvaliante and coumaphos are worthless > against varroa in most areas and despite what some say trying to return to > those products has not worked even after years. I have a friend which > tried > to return to Apistan after a researcher in Georgia said you could return > to > apistan after three years. Lost his whole operation. This may not *always* be the case. I had some apistan resistance starting and stopped using it for three years. After high losses due to mites last fall I used homemade formic pads this spring. I must not have done a good job making them (or the quality of the drum of acid was poor, I was diluting 85% to 65% but the bees did not seem as bothered by the pads as other times), but anyway, after two weeks the pads had almost no vapour and there were still some mites. So I put one apistan strip in each hive to clean up and had very good success. I also thought the hives jumped ahead after the pads were on MORE than could be explained by the mite treatment. I wondered if the formic also had some effect on nosema (as James Plaisted also wondered in a post on Nov 21). FWIW, Stan ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:23:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Nosema Ceranae in US Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I am quite sure that in pollen deficiency, affects royal jelly quality, and definitely amounts of royal jelly go down. Ditto. In the early spring, with less pollen available, one can observe a lot more smaller sized bees being raised. Not the case in the summer or early fall when the young bees are quite plump and uniform. Waldemar ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:01:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: apistan resistance In-Reply-To: <0FFA4B04329A4FC096AFCAF690579E06@AM1610E1202A> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Stan & All, > This may not *always* be the case. This certainly might be true. I have been called in in cases which the beek claimed fluvalinate resistance was the issue and was not the case. In cases of commercial migratory beeks many times the issue is not treating for mites often enough (especially beeks doing almonds) and treating to late after varroa loads are over threshold. In most cases kills from varroa these days are related to not keeping a close eye on varroa loads. In California some beeks are ( and have been for some time) treating for mites three times a year. I have recommended in Missouri beeks doing almonds may need to treat three times a year *if* using soft treatments. Using formic acid ( control for only 4 months- David Vanderduesen) & thymol especially. had some apistan resistance starting > and stopped using it for three years. Going back to apistan looks promising if you compare drops from 24 hours of apistan to thymol and formic. However a 24 hour drop of a couple hundred mites with apistan is nothing compared to when we first used apistan. Over 2000 varroa drop was the norm for 24 hours. Going back to apistan testing I did found a 150-200 varroa drop in 24 hours. At the time of year most might have been normal dead dropping. A word of warning to Stan and others is that the formula of fluvalinate used in apistan strips changed when resistance was reported and the new fluvalinate is a Tau fluvalinate and has been linked to bee kills . Please do not kill the messenger but I have had first hand reports of brood loss etc. using the Tau fluvalinate strips. After high losses due to mites last > fall > I used homemade formic pads this spring. I see nothing wrong with homemade pads but I have heard reports of poor results. Not sure why. I also doubt your formic was the problem. I would suspect your hives had too high a varroa load and was the cause of the problem. I would guess the high load was caused by a poor control the fall before. I am only making a few guesses Stan which may or may not be correct *but* are based on my experience dealing with varroa issues and today's control methods. I may not be totally on target but experience has shown many times I am not totally off target either. , after two weeks the pads had almost no vapor and > there were still some mites. When the temps are in the low range of the recommended temps you will not get much vapor with formic in the last week. I have found (personal experience) that miteway 2 pads are not effective for the full 21 days and provide the most kill in the first 7 days. I believe two treatments would provide a better kill but David V. and I have a difference in opinion on the subject. I do believe using formic once a year keeps tracheal mites under control. I do believe mitaway 2 pads are superior to some of the homemade pads (such as baby diapers). So I put one apistan strip in each hive to > clean > up and had very good success. What was the 24 hour drop with an apistan strip after your formic treatment? > I also thought the hives jumped ahead after the pads were on MORE than > could be explained by the mite treatment. If you are running Italian bees and do not treat for tracheal mites I suspect killing off whatever T mites were in the trachea could be what you are seeing. I do regular tracheal mite testing and always find mites in my Italians but rare to find in my Russian bees. I wondered if the formic also > had some effect on nosema (as James Plaisted also wondered in a post > on Nov 21). Maybe and needs further research but nosema ceranae once gets a strong foothold in your operation takes more than formic to eliminate. I have been using miteaway 2 for three years on my nosema ceranae test yards and does not seem to help with other than mites. I should have perhaps sent to Stan direct but perhaps the above might help other commercial beeks reading. Stan runs a profitable operation as many commercial beeks do but we all have the same battles with the old enemies of honeybees. Varroa/T. mites and nosema. Hopefully the organic group will understand both Stan & I feel we need to control mites , nosema and other problems to stay in business. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:01:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: raising virgins for stocking splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/11/2008 10:54:06 GMT Standard Time, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes: <> I've done the foil-wrapping thing successfully, several times. I always place the cell just outside the broodnest, where the queen's less likely to go. I don't know whether this makes any difference. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:47:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: apistan resistance In-Reply-To: <002d01c95646$899ff1f0$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: >> Both fluvaliante and coumaphos are worthless >> against varroa in most areas Stan said: > I put one Apistan strip in each hive to clean > up and had very good success. Both Apistan and Checkmite still sell very well. If these products did not control varroa, they would not continue sell, and beekeepers would be posting angry comments about "defective" strips, about losing treated hives in large numbers. The emergence of "fluvalinate resistant varroa" was a direct result of the illegal use of fluvalinate in forms not intended for bees, and the misuse of pesticides in general. I made a very fine living from nothing but bees for more than a decade, and somehow, I avoided resorting to Checkmite. Amazingly enough, beekeepers who did not abuse miticides still can get good results even from Apistan, which is why it still sells so well. Yes, many of these customers are hobbyists, as they tend to not try to save a few pennies per hive by brewing their own miticides, as they have far fewer hives. And yes, it is true that hobby beekeepers have not seen as much "resistant varroa" as the undercapitalized "Mom & Pop Migratories", and the difference is the hole that was dug by the smaller and mid-sized migratories with the over-use of each miticide that has come along. (This is not the "Pesticide Treadmill", it is the "Do-It-Yourself Hand-dug Grave".) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:45:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Honey price in time of Depression Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Any one have any records of what happen with honey price in 1929 -1935? I will look around, maybe I can find something. I do have some other stuff from that time listed below. Daily News Thursday, April 14, 1932 Huntingdon, Pennsylvania Bee Business Fails to Feel Depression Washington, April , 13.-—The bee business isn't, much affected by the depression, the Department of Agriculture reports. Last year's honey crop was worth about $10,000,000, and bees-wax about $1,000,000. The value of bees in the pollination of fruit was said to be great, although it is inestimable. New methods of preparing and wrapping honey have stimulated the market, the Department states. Likewise nickel candy bars containing honey and almonds have had a huge sale and consequently increased the use for honey. ====End=== During the depression, folks put much of the blame for the cause on mass production, assembly lines, and sweat shops that were putting the small home business out of business. Improvements in commercial beekeeping also puts a strain on the family bee business, giving the squeeze to this supplemental income. So here is a fun read, be-it on record that honey crop was a bit light in 1932 due to weather conditions, the blame goes else ware in the authors bid to make a statement. Middletown Times Herald Thursday, September 08, 1932 Middletown, New York Unemployed Bees Through some curious coincidence the bees are passing through lean years even as man is muddling and suffering through a period of depression. In a period when even bread is endangered for some and life needs sweetening for all the loss of honey is like denying the condemned a sip of water. Several explanations are advanced for the unfilled hives and combs. A British scientist holds that from year to year the days are getting shorter leaving fewer “shining hours” for the bees to “improve.” Another points out that bees are communists, and that while they were once endowed with reason they lost it by so ordering life as to dispense with it. And then this seeming loss of bee thrift and providence may be due to a bumbling dislike for mass production. It is argued that bees prefer personal contact with the keeper and that never again will the busy bee be busy and a willing worker unless the individualized family hive returns to sting to life the old apple orchard. Best Wishes, Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 18:00:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" In-Reply-To: <002c01c95646$881b4dc0$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian asked: > So what would it take to get Checkmite delisted Not gonna happen. The amount of organophosphate per strip is tiny, the level of use (beekeeping!) is trivial, there is a profit in selling it, and it is still an effective miticide when used with care by those who have not abused miticides and thereby created their own strains of resistant varroa, living in contaminated woodenware. > and [get] the tolerance in wax and honey [down] to near zero? But this is the exact situation now! A "lack of a tolerance" means that the tolerance is zero. Any detected amount in wax and/or honey makes the honey "unfit for human consumption" and the wax "contaminated", and unfit for sale for any food-related use. (I'm not sure how anyone would react to contaminated non-food-use wax products, like candles.) > Why is the industry silent on this while waiting > with bated breath for the silver CCD bullet? Perhaps because the bigger problem is the extent of the off-label miticide use revealed by the work looking at the influence of pesticides on CCD. The MaryAnn Frazier findings are a significant indictment of the "homebrew miticide club". The registration and advertising of Checkmite as a dual-use product was a move of pure genius. The "Florida Gambit" was a jaw-droppingly elegant way through a regulatory maze. It was not prompted by any company, but was a result of the work of the Florida Apiarist staff. Their groundbreaking work led to the dual-use Section 18s. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 05:13:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/12/2008 23:06:20 GMT Standard Time, bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM writes: Any detected amount in wax and/or honey makes the honey "unfit for human consumption" and the wax "contaminated", and unfit for sale for any food-related use. Does that mean that US foundation manufacturers will have to source their beeswax from the poorer countries of the World where chemicals like coumaphos are unheard of? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 07:57:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Acaricide used in beehives for the control of varroa often leaves residues in bee products. The behaviour and distribution of the acaricide coumaphos in honey following the application of a new slow-release strip formulation (CheckMite+) was assessed. The bee colonies were allowed to build new combs without foundation, and two strips were hung in the brood chamber of each colony for a period of 42 days. The distribution of coumaphos residues in honey in relation to the position of the frame and the duration of treatment was examined by collecting samples from each comb at various time intervals up to 145 days after treatment. > In the brood chamber, coumaphos was incorporated into honey from the first day of application, and residues accumulated mainly in combs placed next to strips. In the adjacent combs, residues remained at low concentrations with slight variations. In the honey chamber, residue concentrations on the day of strip removal ranged between 0.006 and 0.020 mg kg$B!](B1, while 79 days after application the concentration of coumaphos residues was below 0.020 mg kg$B!](B1. > Residues above the EC fixed maximum residue limit (MRL) of 0.1 mg kg$B!](B1 were measured only in brood chamber honey obtained from those combs placed next to strips. In these samples, 0.060-0.111 mg kg$B!](B1 of coumaphos was detected up to 103 days after strip removal. Coumaphos residues in honey extracted from combs that were placed at the edge of the brood chamber were found below the MRL value, even during the 42 day period of CheckMite+ strip treatment. Copyright (c) 2007 Society of Chemical Industry ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:44:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Two newly published book on CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The other night I took my wife to the movies to see the movie "Australia" now in theaters. Go see the movie as i think you will enjoy as much as we did! We had to wait for awhile for the movie to start so we went next door to Barnes & Nobles book store. The store had both of the new CCD books in stock. I bought both and plan to put in the Midwestern Beekeepers library when done reading myself. "A Spring Without Bees" by Michael Schacker I suspect might be as Jim & Peter suggested a very bias book mainly from an environmental stand point but as you can not tell a book by its cover I decided to get and read but have only thumbed through so far. The other book "fruitless Fall" I started reading at the book store and am on chapter 8 of eleven. I can say right now the book is a must read for those interested in the current bee crises. "Fruitless Fall" "The collapse of the Honey bee and the coming agriculture crisis" by Rowan Jacobsen Rowan does a terrific job of explaining the bee hive and CCD from a commercial beekeepers perspective. Rowan walks the reader from before CCD, through CCD, through problems around the world and up to todays 2008 findings. Very interesting findings about antibiotics ( other than chloramphenicol) being found in Chinese honey. from page 116 of the book: "As I write this I have on on my desk a lab report from ADPEN Lab ,a leading food safety lab, saying found in a random honey packer sample of Chinese honey 48 PPB ciprofloxacin in it. The antibiotic was also found in catfish, shrimp and other farmed seafood from China" The U.S. has zero tollerance for cipro as cipro remains one of our last best remaining antibiotics and resistance could occur if in our food supply. I am on a first name basis with the beeks he interviewed and know Rowan must have taken notes of exactly what each said as Rowan even included the cuss words from Rhodes & Bell (Florida). The book is done similar to the book "Follwing the Bloom". A must read in my opinion . Not so sure about "A spring without bees' as looks like the author simply went on the net and pulled up various research and gave his own interpitation of said research but will comment after I have read the book. On the back is praise from a lady highly respected in beekeeping circles and a member of the CCD working group. quote May B.: " The apiculture industry now has its own Upton Sinclair. Fruitless Fall is an eye opening , attitude changing , and exceptionally engaging examination of America's most overlooked multibillion dollar industry" -May Berenbaum, professor of entomology, University of Illinois, and chair of the National research council committee on the status of Pollinators in North America. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:29:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 05/12/2008 13:24:33 GMT Standard Time, =20 peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: Residues above the EC fixed maximum residue l= imit (MRL) of 0.1 mg=20 kg=E2=88=921 were measured only in brood chamber honey obtained from those=20= combs=20 placed next to strips. In these samples, 0.060-0.111 mg kg=E2=88=921 of cou= maphos was=20 detected up to 103 days after strip removal. Coumaphos residues in honey=20 extracted from combs that were placed at the edge of the brood chamber were= found=20 below the MRL value, even during the 42 day period of CheckMite+ strip=20 treatment. =20 whereas Jim Fischer wrote: and [get] the tolerance in wax and honey [down]= =20 to near zero? But this is the exact situation now! A "lack of a tolerance" means that the tolerance is zero. =20 Does this mean that US standards are tighter than those of the EU? How=20 about Canada, Australia, NZ and other countries where our readers live and =20 breathe and have their bees? =20 Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:24:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fact-Check for "Truth Check" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said: >> A "lack of a tolerance" means that the tolerance is zero. Chris Slade said: > Does this mean that US standards are tighter than those of the EU? Technically yes, but not on purpose. The "Section 18" process allows "Emergency Use" of a pesticide. Only the "Section 3" ("Full Registration") process includes the setting of residue limits ("tolerances") in various crops and foods. The usual path is that a pesticide moves from "Section 18" status to "Section 3" status. But the rest of agriculture has been moving away from organophosphates, and the EPA wants to reduce their use, so there is simply no way that coumophos will ever get a "Section 3" approval for beekeeping. So while it is true that the US standards appear "tighter", it is only because the "Emergency Use" approval process has been used for years longer than anyone intended. The net result is a statement about "zero tolerance" when it is easy to find residues. Look at MaryAnn's results for pollen and wax here: http://tinyurl.com/6x4j5l or http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/CCDPpt/WhatPesticidesToDoWithItJune08ABJ.pdf And while reading, note that the word "honey" does not appear once in the article. That's not because there is no data for honey, it is merely proof that MaryAnn and her team are not suicidal. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:45:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Nutritional Crossbreed Technology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Now, for Something completely different! "Breeding the Mite-Resistant Honeybee by Nutritional Crossbreed Technology" The main idea of this paper is to research the possibility of mite-resistant honeybee rearing by nutritional crossbreed. The larvae (Apis mellifera ligustica) are bred with the royal jelly of Apis carana carana [sic], and then the morphological index of the worker generation, genotypic frequency and gene frequency of the MDH II, genetic resemblance, and mite resistance are measured. The results show that: compared to the parent workers, the proboscis length, anterior wing area, the total length of the third and fourth dorsal plate of the abdomen, the length of the fourth dorsal plate of the tuberculum, the area of the sixth abdominal segment, and the area of wax mirrors are significantly different, but the differences in the brachium index, dactylus index, and wing claw are not significant. Moreover, there are some mutations in the genotypic frequency and gene frequency of the MDH II. The mite resistance of the nutritional crossbreed worker is significantly higher. The morphological, physical, and biochemical characters, genetic resemblance, and the mite-resistant ability of the worker generation can be changed by nutritional crossbreeding. Nutritional crossbreeding can be a new way to breed the honeybee. Agricultural Sciences in China Volume 7, Issue 6, June 2008, Pages 762-767 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:38:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nutritional Crossbreed Technology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Actually when we think of China beeks we think of keeping a hundred hives and extracting honey in tents. Although the above is true in many cases those taking the China beekeeping tour reported some pretty high techs research going on. My copy of Asian Apiculture describes many interesting experiments done in China.Dr. Larry Conner still has copies available at less than a third of what they originally sold for. I am the only person I know which purchased a copy and then only when Larry offered me a copy at a bargain price. Original retail was 80-$100 U.S. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:02:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: acetic acid /sea container In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Awhile back I received an email from a commercial beek about doing a container full of brood comb in a sea container using acetic acid. The beek said he had thought I had spoke of doing so. I post because I have looked through my email for about an hour and can not find his post. I do not remember ever seeing such a post on BEE-L. The only method I know is to stack the hives outside in a stack . Some say single but most go 7 high. Add the acetic acid and forget. When the acid is gone the operation is done. Peter Edwards has posted on methods used in England. Maybe he will comment again but an archive search with his name and acetic acid should bring up his method. *If* I was to need to do a 40 foot container the first load would be mostly an experiment but sure it could be done. You would need to do the math. I wonder if phosdin gas would not kill the nosema ceranae spores? If so I could give directions for a container. Phosdin gas although very nasty is food approved. Kills everything in the container but not sure about nosema spores. Anyone know? Sorry I did not reply to your post when received but wanted to ask around before replying. All I asked treats in stacks. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:03:47 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: acetic acid /sea container MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Acetic acid is used in Finland in containers. Not in sea container as most beekeepers here could not fill a sea container with all of their boxes. So they use insulated boxes with floor area around 4 - 10 m2. Bee boxes in, stacked in pallets crossing each others to let the air better in.. Acetic sprayed in by plant sprayer ( the type you have in your back, with hand pump) or some place the acetic for evaporation on wide pans on top. Almost all use heater that blows also to circulate the air. This is done during fall/winter/ spring when outside temperatures are too low here for effective treatments. Aim is to have temperature between + 20 - + 30 C. Don't remember the scientific data of treatments times, but most beekeepers keep the frames in for 4 - 7 days and then change for another batch. Styrofoam boxes are good in this, no nails rusting. Frame wires should be stainless steel for not rusting in process. Ari Seppälä ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 04:51:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nutritional Crossbreed Technology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/12/2008 02:08:51 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: The results show that: compared to the parent workers, the proboscis length, anterior wing area, the total length of the third and fourth dorsal plate of the abdomen, the length of the fourth dorsal plate of the tuberculum, the area of the sixth abdominal segment, and the area of wax mirrors are significantly different, This suggests that these characteristics are acquired rather than inherited; from which it follows that the science of morphometrics used to decide the race of bees, whether African or Amm/Aml etc, may need a re-think. What say you, Dave? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:08:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Nutritional Crossbreed Technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:38:22 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: >Hello Peter & All, >Actually when we think of China beeks we think of keeping a hundred hives >and extracting honey in tents. I don't. China is the world's largest producer of deciduous fruit; world's largest producer of apples. I imagine they have a fully modernized beekeeping system. It would be a great mistake to write China off, as they are at the forefront of much scientific research, especially genetic research. We may have to play catch up with them. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:33:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Xenobiotics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, but everything we thought about genetics and the acquisition of characters is being revolutionized. A few examples, not about bees directly but with far reaching implications. (Xenobiotics are substances foreign to an entire biological system, i.e. artificial substances, which did not exist in nature before their synthesis by humans) Caste Determination in a Polymorphic Social Insect: Nutritional, Social, and Genetic Factors > We examined how dietary, social, and genetic factors affect individual size and caste in the Florida harvester ant Pogonomyrmex badius, which has three discrete female castes. The diet that a larva consumed, as indicated by ¦Ä13C, ¦Ä15N, and C:N, varied with caste. Both N content and estimated trophic position of dietary input was higher for major than for minor workers and was highest for gynes (reproductive females). The size and resources of a colony affected the size of only minor workers, not that of gynes and major workers. Approximately 19% of patrilines showed a bias in which female caste they produced. There were significant genetic effects on female size, and the average sizes of a major worker and a gyne produced by a patriline were correlated, but neither was correlated with minor worker size. Thus, genetic factors influence both caste and size within caste. We conclude that environmental, social, and genetic variation interact to create morphological and physi! ological variation among females in P. badius. Epigenetic and phenotypic changes result from exposure to phytoestrogens > The evolutionary origin of new characters in a lineage is considered to be a process different from that of maintenance of these characters through generations. Embryonic development plays an important role in the origin of viable phenotypic variation, on which natural selection may act further, thus, from an evolutionary perspective it is important to understand morphogenic processes taking place during early development. Morphological transformations throughout evolutionary history have been produced from context-dependent changes in genetic processes that occur during development. Considering the genome as responsive to environment has led to the hypothesis from us and others that development and/or epigenetics can provide sources of variation that are dependent on the environmental context. Moreover epigenetic status in adulthood is directionally dependent on the animal's nutritional status during early development. Nevertheless, few studies until recently have devoted! attention to environmental compounds that could directly influence early changes implicated in the origin of new characters. Endocrine disruptors (ED) are among those compounds, since they are capable of driving or inducing the occurrence of new characters and/or phenotypes during early development. Endocrine disrupting environmental chemicals may function as estrogens, antiestrogens and antiandrogens, producing reproductive and developmental effects in a variety of organisms. Furthermore, exposure to environmental xenobiotics during early development may have consequences on adult stages. -- refs Caste Determination in a Polymorphic Social Insect: Nutritional, Social, and Genetic Factors Am Nat 2008. Vol. 172, pp. 497¨C507 Epigenetic and phenotypic changes result from a continuous pre and post natal dietary exposure to phytoestrogens in an experimental population of mice BMC Physiology 2008, 8:17 Published: 15 September 2008 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:34:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: What=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=92s?= in That Package? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "What's in That Package? An Evaluation of Quality of Package Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Shipments in the United States", by James P. Strange, et al, in "Journal of Economic Entomology" Excerpts > Of the six lines of bees for which we received packages, line 3 had no queen mortality in the first 6 wk, the lowest MPB (mite per bee) scores, no detected Nosema, and the lowest percentage of drones. Line 4 had low drone levels, intermediate MPB levels, and no Nosema; yet, lines 5 and 6 also from producer D had intermediate MPB ratios and low drone numbers, but 50% of those packages had detectable Nosema infections. Lines 1 and 2 had high MPB ratios, high drone numbers and 25% of the packages in each line had Nosema infections. > The high variances associated with both MPB ratios and the proportion of drones among producers is likely indicative of the variation in production practices of the package bee industry. Typically package bees are shaken off of frames and pass through a queen excluder that restricts the movement of queens and drone honey bees, which are too large to pass through the openings (Laidlaw 1992). Producers who use a queen excluder should have few drones in packages, whereas those who forego the queen excluder will likely have variable amounts of drones from package to package, reßecting the variation in drone levels from the source colonies. > Packages shipped from producer D were delayed in the mail and arrived dead in Ithaca, NY. Producer D was notified and immediately shipped a new set of packages which were apparently lost by the U.S. Postal Service. A third shipment by that producer arrived in Ithaca, NY, 2 wk later in good health, and it was included in the study. The producer paid the cost of the latter two shipments and replaced the bees at no extra cost. Two other producers (producers E and F) took our orders for packages, but they never shipped the packages either due to bee shortages or misplaced orders. We were not notified by these producers that shipments would not be forthcoming and only learned of it after calling them when the expected shipments did not arrive. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:37:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: What's in That Package? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the MPB (mite per bee) scores in the article made me think it would be a = good strategy to do an oxalic srip when installing new packages, = although I have no idea what would be the proper volume of oxalix/sugar = syrup to use. Comments? Pointers? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:00:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: acetic acid /sea container In-Reply-To: <000e01c95779$2ad65a40$0500000a@ari71aa1cf24c5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ari & All, Thanks Ari! Exactly what I think the beek was looking for. I am embarrassed to say I remember his direct email and problem but not his name. Hopefully he will see your post and at least reply off list. I think with your post he can do the math and come up with a formula. He will have to use less than you use by quite a bit. At times I have seen enough deadouts to fill several containers but my nosema ceranae issues from three yards are on four pallets this year . I have found when clean bees are placed the next season on those boxes I have problems. Do you use acetic acid on all deadouts? Or only for specific deadouts? bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:24:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Nutritional Crossbreed Technology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >It would be a great mistake to write China off, as they >are at the forefront of much scientific research, especially genetic >research. We may have to play catch up with them. Their food system stinks. Serious water pollution. Most of their beekeeping is as I described done in tents and honey extracted in unclean conditions. I have friends which tell me of the looks of some of the barrels shipped ( not required coatings) and what the contents look like. Much different than what the honey looks like after maximum processing. In private talks with some of the largest packers I find they worry about a serious contamination problem slipping through. A couple even quit using China honey after the Chloramphenical issue. Very little testing for antibiotics or other problems is done. Cipro ( like chloranphenical) was found by accident by a lab simply looking for different contaminates. I suspect Chinese honey with chloramphenical might still be rolling in if a food person in the U.K. had not thought to test. It is my opinion that when an antibiotic is found if farmed fish products from China its wise to look at imported honey as the government supplies the current drug of choice to its farmers I have been told. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:38:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What's in That Package? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have said repeatedly on BEE-L that the *quickest* spread of a beekeeping problem has always been with package bees ( and at times queens). I think Peters post supports my opinion. Although a commercial migratory beek might be in your area if his bees are not within a few miles you are not likely to pick up problems except from a swarm . A package (and queens for certain issues) are injected right into your bees without quarantine. I raised salt water fish for most of my life (not now as I travel often ) and always quarantined a new arrival till I was sure the fish carried no problems. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" I know a beek was not the first to make the statement but could apply to beekeeping. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:51:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What's in That Package? In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3414BA06E@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit aaron asks: > although I have no idea what would be the proper volume of oxalix/sugar > syrup to use. The usual mix ( in archives ) used in fall. I have used OA on package bees as well as sucracide mix. I think the process helps and easy to do. The Aussies recommend dunking each package in water before releasing. A process I have considered but rejected as uneccessary. Done mainly for ease of installation and to help prevent drifting. I imagine those which use the practice could add OA or succricide without a problem. I drive through the yard with the package bees on a pallet and sit each package on a hive then treat while on the lid. Pull the lid and install the package after the succricideb (OA) has ran out. I keep my bees on four way pallets and install packages late in the day but always get some drift. I equalize by taking frames of bees and shaking into hives short on bees before the queens are released. can be a pain but goes pretty fast. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: What's in That Package? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob replied, "The usual mix (in archives) used in fall." But I asked VOLUME, not concentration! Fall treatment if 50ml per = established hive. Surely a package would warrany a lesser volume, no? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 15:18:14 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Nutritional Crossbreed Technology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris > The results > show that: compared to the parent workers, the proboscis length, > anterior wing area, the total length of the third and fourth dorsal > plate of the abdomen, the length of the fourth dorsal plate of the > tuberculum, the area of the sixth abdominal segment, and the area of > wax mirrors are significantly different, > > This suggests that these characteristics are acquired rather than inherited; > from which it follows that the science of morphometrics used to decide the > race of bees, whether African or Amm/Aml etc, may need a re-think. What say > you, Dave? I presume that Chris has singled me out because I am currently studying Geometric Morphometrics at Manchester University, please do not consider that this makes me any kind of expert on the subject. Of the characters in the list above only the proboscis length is commonly used in recognition algorithms in A. mellifera species although changes in wing area will alter the layout of wing veins, which are extensively used (we do not know how much until we can see some numbers). The word significant is used, but no numbers are mentioned. It should also be noted that Morphometry is not a primary indicator of race. Behaviour is the main indicator, with morphometry able to qualify or refine certain features in a secondary and supportive manner, nobody should be making decisions based on morphometry alone. There is a possibility that morphometry may be able to become a primary indicator in future, if more parameters are taken into account, such additional features being fine structure of the tongue, measurements of leg joints and some features of the genitalia. However this work has not yet been completed, nor the linkage between biology and physically measurable features positively established. I do not think that Nutritional Crossbreed Technology will turn anything on its head, I find it an interesting concept which should be explored further in terms of artificial larval diets, but like so many other things, I can't see research money being made available for it. I also have a problem with the words... "This suggests that these characteristics are acquired rather than inherited;" All it means to me is that diet affects development. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 15:24:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: What's in That Package? In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3414BA06E@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron > the MPB (mite per bee) scores in the article made me think it would be a good strategy to do an oxalic srip when installing new packages, although I have no idea what would be the proper volume of oxalix/sugar syrup to use. The broodless condition of a package makes it an ideal candidate for lactic acid misting, providing the bees can be spread thin enough to all receive a dose. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:56:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: tolerances of miticides for honey? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I know for a fact, as I have talked first hand with packers, who find ppb (parts per billion) of miticides and antibiotics in honey(almost all beeks) and don't reject the loads if it isn't over the top. . With the measuring devices able to detect undesirable things in honey at almost the molecular level, they can find things we don't even use ourselves in hives from neighboring farms, etc. It reminds me of my home state of Michigan: When you take your drivers test and get the multiple choice in regards to how much alcohol you can drink and drive...check none to get it correct. But if you are stopped while driving and do a blow test you can get by if you have less than .08(I believe this is the number). You can't but you can. I just wanted to comment on my own confusion. Does zero tolerance exist all the time for all beeks for all contaminants? k ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Xenobiotics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline 2008/12/6 Peter L Borst > i.e. artificial > substances, which did not exist in nature before their synthesis by > humans) Phytoestrogens, the substance noted, are found in nature and the phyto specifically relates to plants. Soy and other beans are a source of phytoestrogens. Bill Truesdell. Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:32:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What's in That Package? In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3414BA06F@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron & All, I am certainly no expert on OA treatments but have attended 5 or 6 presentations on the subject mostly from Marion E. or one of his students. >But I asked VOLUME, not concentration! sorry! I am trying to do several projects at once and thought you asked the recipe. > Fall treatment if 50ml per established hive. Actually you never want to use the 50ml amount ( Marion E.) other than a general rule and then I doubt very useful when dealing with a strong hive solid in a couple boxes. Those in my opinion need more than 50 ml. I would stick to the 5 ml. per seam rule. One rule I have found is to not use OA on a hive with three frames of bees or less. Can really knock those bees back or maybe they were headed south anyway. My OA use has been mostly in experiment yards. Others which use OA regularly may have a different view. I always dose blow bees out of Nebraska with OA or sucrecide. To get those bees *for those wondering*: Hundreds of hives are sitting in a holding yard waiting to be depopulated. The beek has deemed those hives are not worth the cost of transportation to Texas and he needs the equipment for splits made in March/April.Being a businessman I can usually talk the beek out of the bees at no charge as he was going to blow out on the ground any way but many beeks charge for *blow bees*. We travel to Nebraska with a one ton load of empty package boxes and the aluminum package filler package bee sellers use. A crew starts taking frame after frame and shaking the bees into packages. The bees are broodless and the queen is impossible to found as she has shrunk down to worker size. We never fill a package over 4 pounds full but because the weather is cool we can fill a 3 pound box with an extra pound. We start at sun up and finish at dark. No breaks usually. Even then at times the beek starts depopulating bees in another part of the holding yard as he sees we will not get all done. Then return to the motel and let the bees settle. Return the next day to Missouri. drench with either sucrecide or OA to remove varroa and install. >Surely a package would warrant a lesser volume, no? The idea is to cover all bees. We work out of five gallon pails with a sprinkler or spray with a sprayer ( not used for insecticide!). We have never measured volume and in my opinion you do need to as the excess goes through the bees. bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:43:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Xenobiotics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 15:18:14 +0000, Dave Cushman wrote: >I do not think that Nutritional Crossbreed Technology will turn anything >on its head, I find it an interesting concept which should be explored >further in terms of artificial larval diets, but like so many other >things, I can't see research money being made available for it. I think it, and research like it, turns everything on its head. This basically means that characters present in the DNA coding can be switch on and off by any number of chemicals including elements in the food and environment, collected deliberately by bees (nectar, pollen, propolis), inadvertently by bees (pollution and pesticides), or introduced into the system deliberately or carelessly by us. This points to a role for external or environmental factors in altering behavior, morphology, etc. both temporarily and permanently. So it could be that we can alter bee behavior temporarily, as needed, or permanently with changes in diet! It could also account for why organisms develop resistance so quickly, more quickly than one might expect from natural selection. Again, it is the Chinese who are at the forefront of this type of research and I assure you that if they can find a way of "crossbreeding" cerana with mellifera, or somehow altering gene expression to mimic such a hybrid, they will. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:44:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: tolerances of miticides for honey? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirk said: I know for a fact, as I have talked first hand with packers, who find ppb (parts per billion) of miticides and antibiotics in honey(almost all beeks) and don't reject the loads if it isn't over the top. I also have heard the same. A tolerance exists for the level allowed for Fluvalinate, Amatraz and coumaphos in honey. Over those allowed levels is supposed to be rejected but who is looking. certain levels of approved antibiotics is allowed but not antibiotics such as chloramphenical or cipro. All honey containing even PPB are supposed to be rejected but who is looking right. . >With the measuring devices able to detect undesirable things in honey at almost the molecular level, I agree. What I do not care for is a bureaucrat saying not to worry about long term drinking in my case water contaminated with ag chemicals. My water is so I drink bottled water. As I said before in a prior post my local water dept. employees cringe when I walk in and see all the ladies at the water dept. drinking bottled water. I always say: our water is so contaminated you gals have to drink bottled water? bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:18:37 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: acetic acid /sea container MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Personally I use acetic acid only to equipment from dead colonies. If they are with bee droppings I melt all frames, but clean food frames are used after acetic treatment. ( I have all my hives tested - no afb) Using acetic acid to all frames during winter has been *normal good practice* in finnish beekeeping, but many have stopped doing it. Now I have frieds who use it mainly for EFB prvention. If they see it they treat all frames during winter for a few years. This is the use I recommend as a bee advicer. We don't normally use antibiotics for brood deseases. Ari Seppälä ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:04:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: What's in That Package? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While Oxalic dribbling of 50mls of a 3.5% solution of Oxalic in sugar syrup (which would be 35grams of Oxalic in a 1-litre bottle of sugar syrup) is one way to go, why not take advantage of powdered sugar. They are in the perfect container to apply the sugar, and one can rotate the package, shake the bees around, and otherwise make sure everyone gets exposed to the poofs of 5-micron sugar dust. The free sugar is not going to hurt them at all, as they likely need sugar, and would be encouraged to stay in the hive and get used to their (depending on package transport time, perhaps very!) newly-added queen. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Xenobiotics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:32:57 -0500, Bill T wrote: >Phytoestrogens, the substance noted, are found in nature and the phyto >specifically relates to plants. Right, but the implication is that if phytoestrogens can cause radical changes in organisms, then we should be doubly on guard against man-made estrogen pollution. Which we knew already, but this outlines some of the effects. The study demonstrates that individuals subjected to a high consumption of certain substances show altered characters, which are relevant from an evolutionary perspective, such as epigenetic and morphometric characters or sexual maturation as a life history character. "Consumption of compounds *such as* phytoestrogens by pregnant mothers may interfere with the establishment of DNA methylation in the developing embryos, leading to a change in DNA methylation and potential gene expression patterns in the resulting adults." What we are talking about is a direct environmental effect on heredity and evolution, as opposed to the indirect effect produced by natural selection. It means at least two things: 1) organisms can be beneficially altered without recourse to actual breeding programs, and 2) organisms can be negatively affected by the environment and pass these effects on to their offspring. pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 15:12:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: What's in That Package? In-Reply-To: <002301c957d5$7f1b0ea0$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, I think powdered sugar is a good idea. My testing in hives shows a good mite drop. Why not a package! bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 16:23:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Xenobiotics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline What we are talking about is a direct environmental effect on heredity and > evolution, as opposed to the indirect effect produced by natural selection. > It means at least two things: 1) organisms can be beneficially altered > without recourse to actual breeding programs, and 2) organisms can be > negatively affected by the environment and pass these effects on to their > offspring. Since one of those foods is soy beans, you would think the Japanese would be mutating all over the place. With the recent discoveries in genetics, compared to what we thought, I would be careful in taking the new discoveries to ends that had not been observed (probably because we were not looking) when we thought we knew what was happening. If you note the key word in the abstract, it is "may", the great scientific abstract modifier that really says that we are making an extrapolation that "may" have no basis at all. Then again, it may. Guaranteed that the most dramatic will be the final premise... "doom is on us" always sells. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 16:27:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: What's in That Package? In-Reply-To: <002301c957d5$7f1b0ea0$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline While Oxalic dribbling of 50mls of a 3.5% solution of > Oxalic in sugar syrup (which would be 35grams of Oxalic > in a 1-litre bottle of sugar syrup) is one way to go, > why not take advantage of powdered sugar. Thought the same thing. But there were trials several years ago that showed powdered sugar sometimes did not get mite drop. Most of the time it does, but for some reason, I believe it was in Georgia, it did not work. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 17:31:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: What's in That Package? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Most of the time it does, but for some reason, > I believe it was in Georgia, it did not work. Any idea where you saw or heard that? Georgia in known for humidity, so one possible reason for failure would be the inability to keep the sugar dry and get the fine, smoke-like "poofs" that contain the small particles that will clog the tarsal pads of the mites and make them fall. That's the problem I have with the claims about the "dump-n-brush" method of applying powdered sugar - there's no reliable production of the very fine particles that are the only known mechanism for making mites loose their grip. But powdered sugar has been my friend for eight years now, and I've treated lots of newbee's packages, as everything coming out of the Southeast seems heavily infested. 2.5 lbs of bees, and half a pound of mites, it seems! :) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 17:52:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: What's in That Package? In-Reply-To: <8c0381120812061327l4d660979s98593a73ad48ab56@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim asks, > why not take advantage of powdered sugar. I used a cup of powdered sugar last year on a few packages. It took care of a surprising number of mites. It's not without some effects on the cluster, however. I think it keeps them from finding their way around. One clump of leftover bees, left outside the hive, didn't find their way inside and the cool night killed them. (CT, Mar 30th). Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:30:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: What's in That Package? In-Reply-To: <005e01c957f2$51d0f280$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Any idea where you saw or heard that? Yes > > Georgia in known for humidity, so one possible > reason for failure would be the inability to > keep the sugar dry and get the fine, smoke-like > "poofs" that contain the small particles that > will clog the tarsal pads of the mites and > make them fall. Your guess coincides with what was surmised at the time. The person I talked to used it often for mite drop when he did not want to harm the bees with an ether roll. But the ether roll was easier and quicker. I have used both. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:58:54 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Xenobiotics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > I think it, and research like it, turns everything on its head. This > basically means that characters present in the DNA coding can be > switch on and off by any number of chemicals including elements in the > food and environment, I do not think it indicates this at all, why do we need to invoke DNA changes to explain what is merely a change in nutrition which in turn causes apparent changes in development ? Are you implying that a child fed on orange juice ends up with different DNA to a child fed on apple juice ? IF diet can change DNA in a hereditary fashion, that would be a whole new ball game. Diet is an external factor in altering bee behaviour and morphometric features both temporarily and permanently. So it could be that we can alter bee behaviour as needed, or permanently with changes in diet (after more research), but there is no need for this to come about by DNA changes or be hereditary, Mr Occam should prevail here. -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:05:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Xenobiotics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman wrote: >IF diet can change DNA in a hereditary fashion, that would be a whole new ball game. That's what I am saying. But it's not diet per se, like soy beans or orange juice. It's specific substances introduced through the diet either purposefully like when the honey bees feed specially formulated royal jelly to a developing queen -- or when estrogens or estrogen-like compounds wind up in our water supply. "Few studies until recently have devoted attention to environmental compounds that could directly influence early changes implicated in the origin of new characters." * * See references previously cited, or write to me for further info ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:25:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Xenobiotics In-Reply-To: <493BBA7E.4060002@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 6:58 AM, Dave Cushman wrote: > Hi Peter > > This >> basically means that characters present in the DNA coding can be >> switch on and off by any number of chemicals including elements in the >> food and environment, >> > > I do not think it indicates this at all, why do we need to invoke DNA > changes to explain what is merely a change in nutrition which in turn causes > apparent changes in development ? I am with Peter when it comes to changes in an organism because of chemicals, be they natural or man made. Hormones do things to organisms. An overload can do very bad things, as orgaophosphates have shown. But is the effect on DNA, proteins, RNA or what? Then you get into slippery science just because it is still in a transition state. So I also agree with Dave. I have a problem with a lot of these tests that look at a substances' effect on an organism just because they flood the system and get into the unrealistic world of eating twenty tons of a substance to get the same results in humans. Especially when the substance, like the one noted is found in many plants that we eat on a daily basis, and which, like soy beans, is a staple in many people's diets. I love soy, but then I do glow in the dark. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 09:47:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Xenobiotics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Greetings Now, I grant you that a lot of what I have been talking about is new and in some cases, poorly understood. But much of it is not new. For example, we already knew that despite the fact that workers and queens have identical eggs (and dna) they develop into completely different types of bees, as a result of differences in the composition of their diets. Further, some people have noted that even the workers may be divided into castes with profound physical differences, again cause by what they consume. That is, short-lived foragers vs long-lived winter bees. In bumble bees there are also summer bees and queens that overwinter alone. In other insects, such as ants, caste differences are even more profound. The effort to alter the honey bee has been ongoing and resulted in one of the most remarkable failed experiments in history, the introduction of the African bee to America. But the motive was correct; the European bee lacked the vigor to thrive in the tropics and Warwick Kerr desired to produce an African European cross. Unfortunately, the African bee became an unstoppable invasive pest wherever it went. So imagine, if you will, if behaviors can be regulated through substances introduced into the diet and if changes these can be passed on via heredity. If the appropriate "switches" could be found, a bee could be raised with improved hygienic behavior. Further, if behaviors are regulated via gene expression, then the bad behavioral qualities like aggressive stinging and excessive swarming could be down-regulated. If the behavior turns out to have negative side effects, it could be switched off as readily as it was switched on. Geneticists already know how to insert genetic material that can be subsequently switched on or off. We have seen that honeybees can revert to nursing even after they have been employed as foragers. They can even perform some queen-like functions such as egg laying and the production of pheromones. * * * More on gene expression in the bee and its relation to bee health > Varroa parasitism caused changes in the expression of genes related to embryonic development, cell metabolism and immunity. Bees tolerant to Varroa were mainly characterized by differences in the expression of genes regulating neuronal development, neuronal sensitivity and olfaction. > Differences in olfaction and sensitivity to stimuli are two parameters that could, at least in part, account for bee tolerance to Varroa; differences in olfaction may be related to increased grooming and hygienic behavior, important behaviors known to be involved in Varroa tolerance. > These results suggest that differences in behavior, rather than in the immune system, underlie Varroa tolerance in honey bees, and give an indication of the specific physiological changes found in parasitized bees. They provide a first step toward better understanding molecular pathways involved in this important host-parasite relationship. -- "Differential gene expression of the honey bee Apis mellifera associated with Varroa destructor infection" M Navajas, et al, in: BMC Genomics. Research article Open Access This article is available from: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/9/301 * * * >From the good news department: not all chemicals are bad! > Evidence suggests that a diet high in fruits and vegetables may decrease the risk of chronic diseases, such as cardiovascular disease and cancer, and phytochemicals including phenolics, flavonoids and carotenoids from fruits and vegetables may play a key role in reducing chronic disease risk. > Apples are a widely consumed, rich source of phytochemicals, and epidemiological studies have linked the consumption of apples with reduced risk of some cancers, cardiovascular disease, asthma, and diabetes. In the laboratory, apples have been found to have very strong antioxidant activity, inhibit cancer cell proliferation, decrease lipid oxidation, and lower cholesterol. > Apples contain a variety of phytochemicals, including quercetin, catechin, phloridzin and chlorogenic acid, all of which are strong antioxidants. The phytochemical composition of apples varies greatly between different varieties of apples, and there are also small changes in phytochemicals during the maturation and ripening of the fruit. Storage has little to no effect on apple phytochemicals, but processing can greatly affect apple phytochemicals. -- Apple phytochemicals and their health benefits Jeanelle Boyer and Rui Hai Liu Department of Food Science and Institute of Comparative and Environmental Toxicology, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853-7201 USA The electronic version of this article is the complete one and can be found online at: http://www.nutritionj.com/content/3/1/5 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:38:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Mated Queens vs. Cells.Peter B & Bob H. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > So the question > remains: why don't all hives keep spare queens trapped in this way? Yes, I've wondered that many a time. It appears that the "selfish genes" of the queen override the survival instinct of the colony. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:03:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: acetic acid /sea container In-Reply-To: <8B59470B3308435BAD7301C55279CC6E@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > a commercial beek about doing a > container full of brood comb in a sea container using acetic acid. My guess is that it would corrode the snot out of the container quickly. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:15:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Mated Queens vs. Cells.Peter B & Bob H. Comments: To: Randy Oliver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ahoy, Randy: The Selfish Gene in the very sense Richard Dawkins employs the term in his seminal book (1976; Oxford UP) you mean? Yoon ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 14:56:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Xenobiotics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am reminded of what Sue Cobey told us at Gormanston this year during her talk on basic bee genetics. She introduced the concept of epigenetics, which she defined as any process that alters or modifies gene expression - turning genes off and on - but she said the genes themselves are not changed. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 14:56:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Xenobiotics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst writes: “So imagine, if you will, if behaviors can be regulated through substances introduced into the diet and if changes these can be passed on via heredity. If the appropriate "switches" could be found, a bee could be raised with improved hygienic behavior. Further, if behaviors are regulated via gene expression, then the bad behavioral qualities like aggressive stinging and excessive swarming could be down-regulated.” A lot of ifs in there, Peter. I can’t imagine that there are so many of these genetic switching mechanisms that you could ever hope to have as much control over the behavior of bees as you might like just by regulating their dietary intake. For one thing those switches that do exist presumably have good reasons why they are sometimes on and sometimes off under natural conditions. Their expression, having evolved over the millennia, must have something to do with what is of survival benefit to the species. It is reasonable to assume that if such a mechanism existed for a given behavior, it would have arisen as an evolutionary response to some real and repetitive environmental condition. It is highly unlikely to have arisen in some random way to fortuitously be there to meet some new, unforseen challenge. I'm sure such randomly fortuitous genetic traits do exist but they are rare. Those mechanisms that do exist, such as caste development in insects, will likely be observable under conditions which we normally expect to see bees in. That they would be latent, waiting for a highly unusual dietary elixir is not likely, it seems to me. Also, I have a hard time believing we are anywhere remotely close enough to understanding how these things work to be able to slice and dice them into the gene sequence to get the kind of control that we are capable of imagining or desiring. I also have to admit that I am a little nervous about where genetic technology seems to be taking us. It seems to me that it will be really hard to account for all the possible unintended consequences of playing with genes like they were tinker toys. But I would have probably been afraid of sailing off the edge of the earth too. Steve Noble ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 06:33:19 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Trevor Weatherhead Subject: Re: Xenobiotics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote > Further, some people have noted that even the workers may be divided > into castes with profound physical differences, again cause by what > they consume. We have cases in Australia that bees working certain flowers are often deemed to be more cranky than when working others. Examples of bees getting cranky on certain flowers are spotted gum and tea tree. I know in our case for tea tree that bees will be not happy on the tea tree site but when you shift them away, within a day or so, they are quite gentle. Peter, you certainly come up with some interesting subjects. It is appreciated. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 18:42:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris Slade: > [Sue Cobey] said the genes themselves are not changed. Well, ideas are changing pretty fast. First, hardly anybody talks about genes anymore, but coding regions. Before DNA was even discovered it was assumed that "units" of heredity would be found and these were preemptively called "genes" like the blue eye gene. But now it appears that the DNA is about as decipherable as your hard drive. The information is all there, but scattered about in fragments, and without good a good indexing system, it would be utterly useless. Just as you use only a small portion of the contents of your hard drive when you perform a given task, like typing this email, the cell uses only a small portion of the DNA when it needs to perform a given function. There is a lot of stuff in the genome that may be historical evolutionary holdovers. Remember at the year 2000, when the computers were all going to crash? One fact that came out was that a very large percentage of the code in the operating systems of many "mission critical" computers was cobbled together modules and snips of code from previous OS's. A lot of it nobody knew what it was for but you had to have it in there or other parts simply wouldn't work. It's like that with the genome, evidently. Where the CPU is, though, is anybody's guess. Anyway, it appears that changes are made to the genes every time they're copied and some of these changes are responses to environmental factors, including internal cell chemistry. Some of these changes are passed on from generation. It is no coincidence that a lot more material is passed from the mother via the egg than from the father via the sperm. The sperm, as my friend Tom Glenn pointed out to me recently, is really just a DNA package, from which the egg picks up new genetic material. The egg contains much more than this. * * * Steve Noble: > A lot of ifs in there, Peter. I can't imagine that there are so many of these genetic switching mechanisms that you could ever hope to have as much control over the behavior of bees as you might like just by regulating their dietary intake. I guess I have to explain this a third time (no offense to you Steve, probably my fault in not being clear). I am not talking about some kind of redi-mix to make super bees. What I am talking about refers to, among other things, the original experiment where the researcher fed jelly from Apis cerana to Apis mellifera larvae, and observed physical (and behavioral, no doubt) changes. The composition of the jelly is responsible for profound changes in the developing larvae. Many or most of these changes are probably caused by regulators synthesized by the nurse bees in their pharyngeal glands. However, researchers discovered that similar changes could be brought about with specific chemicals that "switch" specific areas on the genome. > Well-known classes of functional elements, such as protein-coding sequences, still cannot be accurately predicted from sequence information alone. Other types of known functional sequences, such as genetic regulatory elements, are even less well understood; undoubtedly new types remain to be defined, so we must be ready to investigate novel, perhaps unexpected, ways in which DNA sequence can confer function. Similarly, a better understanding of epigenetic changes (for example, methylation and chromatin remodelling) is needed to comprehend the full repertoire of ways in which DNA can encode information. What the future holds is not clear, so call me crazy, but others see: 1) Modulation of expression of all gene products using, for example, large-scale mutagenesis, small-molecule inhibitors and knock-down approaches (such as RNA-mediated inhibition) 2) Reusable software modules to facilitate interoperability 3) Methods to elucidate the effects of environmental (non-genetic) factors and of gene–environment interactions on health and disease 4) Improved knowledge management systems and the standardization of data sets to allow the coalescence of knowledge across disciplines > Although a good start has been made, expanded interactions will be required between the sciences (biology, computer science, physics, mathematics, statistics, chemistry and engineering), between the basic and the clinical sciences, and between the life sciences, the social sciences and the humanities. Such interactions will be needed at the individual level (scientists, clinicians and scholars will need to be able to bring relevant issues, concerns and capabilities from different disciplines to bear on their specific research efforts), at a collaborative level (researchers will need to be able to participate effectively in interdisciplinary research collaborations that bring biology together with many other disciplines) and at the disciplinary level (new disciplines will need to emerge at the interfaces between the traditional disciplines). Source: "A vision for the future of genomics research" NATURE; VOL 422; 24 APRIL 2003 www.nature.com/nature If this thread is boring, please advise me and I'll drop it. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 18:47:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Mated Queens vs. Cells.Peter B & Bob H. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> So the question remains: why don't all hives keep spare queens trapped in this way? For the simple reason that hives do not all behave the same way under the same circumstances, and especially do not all behave in a predictable fashion when it comes to reproduction of the colony. This unpredictability is one of my favorite things about bee colonies, though, and makes them almost as interesting as people. A royal pain to make a living from, though. Peter B ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:39:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So where has this got us? (I am a founder member of the William of Occam Appreciation Society) Genes (or sections of DNA coding) recombine during sexual reproduction and the children won't be exactly like the parents. There's a lot of spare capacity already within the genome that can be switched on or off by stimuli (or at random?) during the reproductive phases. There's a constant trickle of mutation, some of which might be useful, most of which isn't, and some of which may be lethal. A change of diet or other chemical stimulus at the appropriate time may tend to accelerate these processes. Have I got it about right? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:43:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Mated Queens vs. Cells.Peter B & Bob H. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/12/2008 00:13:10 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: This unpredictability is one of my favorite things about bee colonies, though, and makes them almost as interesting as people. I keep telling people that colonies of bees are as different from each other as people are. I'm glad we seem to agree. It must make 'industrial beekeeping' difficult when robot bees would be far more convenient. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:04:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Queen rearing Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any comments on a good queen rearing book that specializes or at least emphasizes the genetic aspect. In my operation I own most of the hives in my particular region so therefore control most of the drones also. I have a couple of Bro Adams bools a s well as Laidlaws "Contemporary Queen rearing" Thanks John Horton N. Alabama ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:55:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Beekeeping in China Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >Actually when we think of China beeks we think of keeping a hundred hives >and extracting honey in tents. In 1949, there were only 500,000 colonies of domestic bees, including 100,000 colonies of Western bee [mellifera] and 400,000 colonies of Chinese bee [cerana]. The number of colonies of Chinese bee jumped from 500,000 in the end of the 1970s to 1 million ten years later. In 1991, China boasted 7.541 million colonies of domestic bees, 42.3 per cent more than in 1979 and accounting for 13 per cent of the world's total. [During this same period the numbers in the USA went from 6 million down to 2 million] In 1991 China's honey output reached 208,000 tons or 20 per cent of the world's total. The output of royal jelly was 1000 tons, bee pollen 800 tons, and beeswax 3000 tons. This made China the number one producer.] In Zhejiang province an average colony yield is 100 kg (220 lb), reaching 200 kg, and royal jelly production per colony ranges from 2.5 kg to 4 kg. Apiculture in China, 1993 Beijing, 100026, China pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 02:23:11 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter > If this thread is boring, please advise me and > I'll drop it. Not boring, but a bit far from the mainstream. I'm a geneticist (and talk about genes all the time!), and wonder if I've missed something important when you said: > But now it appears that the DNA is about as > decipherable as your hard drive. The information > is all there, but scattered about in fragments, > and without good a good indexing system, it would > be utterly useless. Here you are in danger of giving the wrong impression. Genes are complex entities, and it isn't always easy to define where one begins and ends. But some parts of the gene, the main bits, are very clear. 'ATG' says 'start here' then comes the code in triplets until the stop signal comes along. Of course there are complications, the introns that get snipped out, the promotor ahead of the main gene where various controlling elements have their say, micro-RNAs that make the gene products quickly labile ... but .... the gene is still a gene isn't it? The genome isn't like a badly defragmented disk, it is composed of discrete entities that can be cut out, tinkered with, and put back again, should you have a mind to do so and a regulatory system that lets you. There are complex controls over the expression of most genes, but that was always recognised as an important part of the story. It is just that now we are getting some idea of just how complex. all the best Gavin ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 22:06:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Knowledge across disciplines; was Xenobiotics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gavin states that he is a geneticist and says: "There are complex controls= =20 over the expression of most genes,,,it is just that now we are getting some= =20 idea of just how complex." =20 Working with the Army, we are getting heavily into Proteomics and bees, and= =20 I think that this may be where some of this conversation may be going. =20 FYI, all of the genes in a cell (or organism) constitute the genome. =20 Similarly, the entire constellation of proteins in a cell make up the prote= ome. =20 Proteins are made up of building 20 amino acid building blocks. =20 =20 Finally, some folks have adopted short cut terminology of calling genomics =20 and proteomics the Omics - bit cute for my taste. But in the field of =20 Informatics, you will see references made to omics. =20 Establishing the honey bee genome (mapping the blueprint) was step 1. Genes= =20 get lots of press, but it=E2=80=99s the proteins (step 2) that perform most= life=20 functions and even make up the majority of cellular structures. =20 There's not been much discussion on this list about Proteomics, but this is= =20 where the big pharmaceutical companies are looking for new treatments. It=20= is=20 still hard to replace or 'fix' a gene. Genes regulate the production of=20 proteins, and that's where many more opportunities exist, since proteins ca= n=20 turn things on and off, etc. Studying proteomics (protein expression and=20 function) promises to help elucidate the molecular basis of health and dise= ase.=20 =20 With new advances in instrumentation, we can now screen for a huge array of=20= =20 peptides/proteins in a single bee sample. Typically, we get hundreds, ofte= n=20 thousands of identifiable peptides per bee sample. Peptides are short=20 polymers of amino acids.. Proteins are polypeptide molecules (consisting o= f=20 multiple peptides). The distinction is that peptides are short and=20 polypeptides/proteins are long. =20 =20 We can match the identified peptides in a given bee sample against database= s=20 of over 64 million known peptides. Using only those peptides that pass the= =20 criteria of strong correlation/multiple peptide, we have already discovered= =20 the introduction of a new bee virus to N. America, learned a lot about a wi= de=20 array of diseases in U.S. bees, discovered much about other insect and plan= t=20 diseases in bee hives, and have found some leads that may help distinguish=20 sick from healthy bees. =20 The CA Beekeepers funded us and the Army to conduct a proteomics study of C= A=20 bees to establish baselines and profiles. =20 =20 Last week, we got a commitment from beekeepers in Canada to send us samples= .=20 =20 =20 Working with the Army, we can now offer proteomics screening to beekeepers.= =20 The price per test is a bit pricey at $250 sample, but the information=20 obtained is somewhat similar to going to your doctor for a checkup and havi= ng just=20 about every lab test known conducted at one time. We will be at the=20 National Bee meetings to present more about this subject and why it should=20= be of=20 interest to you. =20 I assume by now, some of you are saying, if proteomics is so good, why are =20 we only now hearing about it. Well, there's a downside. We having only=20 scratched the surface in understanding this data - and worldwide, scientist= s are=20 struggling with the concept that as complex as genomics is, proteomics is e= ven=20 more complex. =20 More than one article about proteomics quotes Sir Winston Churchill. =20 His words, spoken in 1942 after 3 years of war, capture well the=20 genome/proteomics era: "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginni= ng of the=20 end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." =20 Jerry =20 **************Stay in touch with ALL of your friends: update your AIM, Bebo,= =20 Facebook, and MySpace pages with just one click. The NEW AOL.com.=20 (http://www.aol.com/?optin=3Dnew-dp&icid=3Daolcom40vanity&ncid=3Demlcntaolco= m00000012) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 22:17:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: [WL] [BEE-L] Queen rearing Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You may wish to consider: Bee Genetics and Breeding Thomas E. Rinderer Academic Press1986 Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding Laidlaw and Page Wicwas Press 1997 Elemental Genetics and Breeding for the Honeybee Ernesto Guzman-Nova = Ontario Beekeepers' Association 2007 eguzman@uoguelph.ca Bee Sex Essentials Lawrence J Connor Wicwas Press 2008 www.wicwas.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * *******************************************************