Received: from [169.226.1.21] by relay.internode.net (SMTPD32-3.02) id A7E9D6400CE; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:02:49 -0700 Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1308; Tue, 12 Nov 96 15:02:33 EST Received: from CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1) by CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 2368; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:02:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:02:16 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at ALBNYVM1 (1.8b)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9607B" To: "W. Allen Dick" X-UIDL: 382 Status: U ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 02:11:33 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Brian Tassey Subject: Re: To many supers :( Mark, Pull the frames out that are not completed and consolidate the filled ones into fewer boxes. Wait until they have filled out the lower boxes before giving more. Oversupering is easy to do when you see heavy flight during a honey flow. It's like counting your frames before they're filled or your chicks before they've hatched, something like that! Brian Kaykin@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 06:57:00 +0000 Reply-To: jdalexa@his.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: John Alexander Subject: New Hive - Many questions Hello all, After all of the reading, acquiring of equipment, finding of bees, and so forth, I finally got my start in beekeeping. Got bees and three frames of brood one day and installed them (clumbsily). The queen went in the next day. From the exterior, things are looking good. Field hands are coming to and fro with loads of pollen and they are taking syrup like it grows on ??trees??. Couple of questions: When I put the queen cage in, the hive got very "excited" by the sound of the humming. It had been a little over a day since the bees had been removed from their original hive and even before I put the queen in, there were a number of bees on her cage. Quite the ??welcoming?? committee when I put her in. Is this normal?? They were VERY aggressive when I opened them up to install the queen, but have since calmed down VERY considerably. How long should I wait before going in to remove the cage and to check on what is going on? So far, there's no sign of a dead queen (2 days now) in front of the hive. There seem to be a large number of drones - in proportion to the worker force coming and going. Normal? - Given that I'm feeding them heavily. What are the signs of robbers coming and going and what can I do to thwart them? Any other advice or things to watch for? Thanks for your patience with a brand newbie. This is absolutely fascinating. I've been spending hours watching them. John Alexander mailto:jdalexa@his.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 14:06:56 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: G C Allison Subject: Re: 8 frame spacer and the 6 O'clock news In-Reply-To: <199607061508.QAA12701@typhoon.dial.pipex.net> > >"Paul Cronshaw, D.C." wrote > > Is there an 8 frame spacing tool available? > > Paul, Why not use 48mm plastic end spacers; if they are used overlapped you can= get 11 frames into the super to get the bees started on drawing comb, then = take out 3 frames move all the spacers to the frame ends and you get the remainin= g 8 evenly spaced. I use different coloured spacers so I can distinguish unw= ired [for cut-comb] from wired foundation frames. Geoff Allison Dalbeattie, Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 14:32:02 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: G C Allison Subject: Re: Quick Swarm Catchers In-Reply-To: <199607052337.AAA02958@typhoon.dial.pipex.net> > >Peter T. Kneeland wrote > > My brother and nephew dumped the swarm into a > large box and set it down. Before they could get the rest of the bees > collected the entire lot left the box and returned to their original = hive. > I've just returned from work to find the hive behaving in a fairly > normal fashion. > > My question ..... is this normal? Has anybody ever had this experience= ? > Peter, I have a similar tale to tell; about three weeks ago I had almost been = round all my colonies looking for swarm preparations and taking precautions and was = sitting quietly in the garden when one of two hives I keep there decided to misbe= have. The hive has a last year's queen and when I went through it at 11am that = day it was strong but quiet - there was a good distribution of eggs, open & clos= ed brood and was happily working in the honey super. At 3pm it swarmed, unusually the swarm broke up, most settled in a nearby gorse bush but thr= ee smaller clusters formed in other bushes/trees. Fortunately all were acce= ssible so along with my wife I collected the clusters and put them in a bait hiv= e together with a frame of open brood from the parent hive. The bees ran into the = bait hive eagerly [I didn't see the queen] and appeared to settle. I had to go to an out-apiary to finish my round for the week, and when = I returned home 2 hours later the bait hive was empty but for a few bees covering = the frame of brood but the parent hive was "throng", with bees covering the = front. Since that time there has been no discontinuity in egg laying in the hive= and no queen cells have developed, from this and the continued strength of the = parent hive I am convinced the swarm returned. The weather was hot & humid and came several days into a hot spell after = a very delayed spring, and at the end of a nectar flow - I think that what I exp= erienced was a heat-swarm - I removed the entrance block and put on another super = to give better ventilation and more clustering space, and have had no troubl= e since. Comments? Geoff Allison Dalbeattie, Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 12:37:34 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: quality of queens On July 5th Allen Dick commented: >> > Do the methods that the queen breeder uses have an affect on the > quality of queens? Various reports over the years have shown pretty conclusively that the conditions under which queens are raised is generally more important than the genetics (assuming reasonably closely related strains). Well-raised queens from average to poor stock outperformed queens from good stock that were poorly raised. >> ------------------------------- This is not what I have observed Allen. From my own queen production I have noticed that queens from good strains are always better, even if raised under non optimal conditions, that queens from a poor strain raised under ideal conditions. The point that should be clarified is what do we mean by "poor conditions". If we mean qeens raised from cells from cell finisher colonies that are not properly stimulated and that are loaded with too many cells, then maybe you are right. Anyway I would be curious to read the "various reports" you are refering to. Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines/ queen breeder 1282, rang 8, Saint-Adrien-de-Ham, Quebec, Canada (819)828-3396, fax: (819)828-0357 chapleau@login.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:09:56 +0000 Reply-To: jrickert@chatlink.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: John Rickert Subject: Another New kid on the block... Hi All, I also am new at this. A friend of mine put 30 hives on my property about two months ago. He had an extra suit and mask so I have been helping him work the hives. In the beginning, the hives were swarming at least once every two days. Things have settled down now and it has been over a week since the last swarm. I have been building hives and frames every spare minute of the day to house the swarms that have been taking place. Next to the hives are three cedar trees with the largest being about 12 feet tall. Every time there is a swarm, you can count on them landing in one of those trees and generally on one of the lower branches. It has been so easy to just walk over to where they are, lay the bottom box under the swarm, cut the branch and lower it into the brood chamber. Once in, I give a little shake and remove the branch. Most all the bees just stay there while I place the lid on. Inside I have already placed two frames of brood and honey from the hive that the swarm has come from. I then fill it up with frames with foundation only and move it over to the area where the majority of hives are. I have done this about 6 times and have had absolutly no problems. All hives are actively producing eggs and life just goes on. I'm hoping that this is normal! I've heard others say that a good bee keeper shouldn't be letting his bees swarm so much. My friend sort of agrees but works fulltime and has very little time to spend on them like I do. We both sort of agree that with the devastation that bees have seen in Southern Oregon, he is doing a good thing to let a lot of swarms go back into the hills. Any comments? By the way, I belong to many repeater services like this but none have the activity this on has. Sometimes I feel that I am in overload with all the information available here. Thanks you all for such a good service. ========================================================== John A. Rickert >> (541)-846-6041 441 Horizon Hills Road >> jrickert@chatlink.com Williams, Oregon 97544 >> ========================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:42:21 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: quality of queens > > Do the methods that the queen breeder uses have an affect on the > > quality of queens? > > Various reports over the years have shown pretty conclusively that > the conditions under which queens are raised is generally more > important than the genetics (assuming reasonably closely related > strains). Well-raised queens from average to poor stock > outperformed queens from good stock that were poorly raised. >> > ------------------------------- > > This is not what I have observed Allen. From my own queen > production I have noticed that queens from good strains are always > better, even if raised under non optimal conditions, that queens > from a poor strain raised under ideal conditions. The point that > should be clarified is what do we mean by "poor conditions". If we > mean qeens raised from cells from cell finisher colonies that are > not properly stimulated and that are loaded with too many cells, > then maybe you are right. That's *exactly* what I mean. > Anyway I would be curious to read the > "various reports" you are refering to. Yes, as I recall, the study I remember best was one where scientists gathered specimen queens from a number of US breeders and installed them and ran them a season and compared honey production. It varied from about nothing to a bumper yield -- all in the same yard. They then raised daughter queens from them under controlled and similar conditions and repeated the experiment to find little difference in production between the various hives. The conclusion: That the quality of the queen raising methods employed by the suppliers was responsible for most of the variation between the original queens. Of course one has to assume that only half the original genetics was present in the daughters, but even then... I forget where I read this sometime in the last 30 years or so, but remember the moral of the story. I suspect it was in ABC/XYZ or The Hive and the Honeybee in one of their various editions released over the years. Maybe someone on the list can put a finger on the source, and perhaps correct any errors in my recollection, and perhaps even cite other studies. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:24:28 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: 8 frame spacer and the 6 O'clock news > Why not use 48mm plastic end spacers; if they are used overlapped > you can get 11 frames into the super to get the bees started on > drawing comb, then take out 3 frames move all the spacers to the > frame ends and you get the remaining 8 evenly spaced. I use > different coloured spacers so I can distinguish unwired [for > cut-comb] from wired foundation frames. Hi Geoff I'm not familiar with these. I wonder if you could describe them further and mention where they are obtained.? TIA Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:38:33 -30000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steve Diana Subject: comb honey containers Hi, I have been told that cardboard containers are available for retailing cut comb honey. These apparently use a plastic bag inside the box. Can anyone tell me where to find these? I would like to use packaging that is more environmentally friendly than straight plastic. Although the cardboard boxes use a plastic bag I expect that the total plastic use is less. Thanks, Steve Diana ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:23:08 +1200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Cliff Van Eaton Subject: Re: quality of queens I would also like someone to help with the reference Alan Dick refers to which showed that the rearing of the queen was more important than the genetics of the queen. The only direct reference to this subject I can recall is a 1981 article by Steve Taber in the American Bee Journal entitled Scientific Queen Rearing (January issue). In the article Steve reports on work done by C.L. Farrar in the '30's-'40's where he undertook a programme to determine which of the many advertised bee stocks offered by queen producers were best and could produce the most honey. To start everything out equal, all queens were hived with two-pound packages. Some of the package colonies could barely make winter, while others produced from 150 to 200 lbs of surplus. However, one producer consistently turned out queens that developed colonies which produced from 250 to 400 lbs of surplus. According to Steve, Farrar came to the conclusion that the stock from this particular queen rearer was not any better genetically than that available anywhere else. Farrar found that when they reared queens from the queen rearer's stock and stock obtained from the poorer performing stock, all resulting stocks performed similarly. Steve says in the article that "it wasn't the stock that so so good, it was the queen breeder himself" (ie, the way he reared his queens). The thing that stood out in his queen rearing was his care and selection of each queen and queen cell at every step of the production cycle. I don't think this is the work Alan is referring to, so I would be very interested in hearing if there has been subsequent research which supports Steve Taber's contention that the rearing is more important than the genetics. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:13:05 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Organization: N/A Subject: Yellow Rain Can anyone remind me of past discussions on removing bee feces from cars, windows, etc. I seem to recall some such discussion, but once again I am one who failed to record such vital information. Thanks Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:24:03 +0900 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kiyoshi Kimura Subject: address of Dr. Milne Dear sir/ma'am, I posted the following message before, but nobody responded. I am afraid that the previous message was not reached there by my mistake. So I am going to post it again. ****************************************** I would like to contact with Dr. C.P. Milne Jr., who used to be an associate professor at Washington State University. I heard that he gave up science and moved to bee buisiness. If you know his address, email, fax number etc, please let me know. Thank you in advance. Kiyoshi Kimura, PhD Lab Apiculture, Department of Animal Genetics, NIAI Tsukuba Japan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:55:50 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Apistan in hives over winter Comments: To: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Regarding leaving Apistan in colonies over the winter; if you can possibly avoid doing it, don't do it. It won't give you any more protection than treating in late autumn and/or in early spring and it will increase the risk of selection for tau-fluvalinate resistant strains of Varroa mite. I'm not saying you WILL select but the risks are higher if you've already exposed mites to the pesticide earlier in the season and then you extend the treatment for a further 3-4 months later on. Treatment should be 4-6 weeks only and should be performed at a maximum twice per year, each treatment several months apart. I know it's difficult sometimes to time withdrawal of the strips before a cold spell hits but it's to your and to all your beekeeping neighbours' benefit if you can do this. If you really can't avoid the strips being in the hive over winter, take them out as soon as you can in the spring and don't treat again with Apistan until late summer/autumn. If the colony becomes very highly reinfested in the meantime you should try using another type of intermediary treatment, maybe such as formic acid, if available. As Technical Development Manager for Sandoz I've seen first hand how resistance can develop by submitting Varroa to all-year-round hive treatments in Italy - admittedly with uncontrolled dosage of illegal preparations such as Mavrik and other, different actives - but the result is potentially the same - resistant mites. ANY preparation (including natural products) which is efficaceous can lead to selection of resistance in its target species if the exposure is not controlled. In the case of Varroa treatments, Apistan is a very good tool but a tool is only effective if used skillfully. Beekeepers have the power to control Varroa resistance and the [long-term] effectiveness of Apistan - or of any other hive treatment product - by using the product wisely and to follow the label directions as closely as practicable. Accepting that it's not always possible to follow label directions to the letter, it's probably the best guide you can get. Hope this helps. Max ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Apistan Author: owner-bee-l@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU at INTERNET1 Date: 02/07/96 00:50 Thanks for the many replies to my earlier inquiry regarding Mite Control using the new MITE SOLUTION. Apistan wins hands down. Now one more question please. What are the effects, if any, if the Apistan strip is left in over the winter, say from October 1 to May 1? Make it easy on Bee-L and rsvp direct to gordonstowe@juno.com. Thanks a million-no make that 2 million. 73s. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:32:05 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: Bumbles & swarm >snip< >Two questions. I placed a couple of 4inch chunks of apistan treated >honeycomb on the topboard(under the cap). >snip< What is apistan treated honeycomb? I have never heard of this method of treating for mites. I thought the only proper method of using Apistan was putting the strips in the hive. The fluvalinate in Apistan is not water-soluble and will not get into honey, so I'm not sure how you could "treat" honeycomb with it. I also thought that fluvalinate (the miticide in Apistan) was topical. The bees are supposed to rub against it, not eat it. Eating it wouldn't help the bees any. Other formulations of fluvalinate that are not registered for bees are water-soluble and will get in the honey. Did you apply a different formulation of fluvalinate to this honeycomb? I have heard of people using other formulations in their hives. At the risk of sounding like a nag: DON'T PUT FLUVALINATE IN YOUR HIVES UNLESS IT COMES IN THE APISTAN STRIPS!!!!! The other formulations get into honey. You will end up with contaminated honey. Do you want honey with poison in it? The last thing the industry needs is a contaminated honey scare. Non-Apistan fluvalinate also helps create fluvalinate-resistant mites. This is another last thing the industry needs. Case in point: Italy can't treat with fluvalinate any more. The mites are resistant. Italian beekeepers used fluvalinate that wasn't registered for bees. They thought they'd save a few bucks.... Just buy the Apistan and use it. It's not expensive. At current retail prices for small quantities, the Apistan will probably cost about $10.00 per year per hive (2 treatments of 2 strips each). Sorry to make a big deal out of this, particularly since I'm not sure what you meant by "apistan treated honeycomb" (those wild guesses always get me into trouble!). I just worry about the consequences of using poisons incorrectly. As for your other questions, feeding a swarm is always a good idea. It gives them a jumpstart. And there is no problem having both hives together on the roof. You could have put them closer together if you wanted. Our locations often have hives less than 2 feet apart, with no problem. If there is no honey flow and the bees are robbing, it doesn't matter if the hives are 2, 10, 30 or 40 feet apart--the robbers are perfectly happy to fly that far. Reducing the entrance on a weak hive will help them defend against robbers. Shawna Roberts Gypsy Bees Hollister, California ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:12:39 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Queen Breeding. I really must put in my 5 cents worth on these Queen Rearing posts of recent date. I have never read such a load of twaddle in my life. To say that 'rearing is more important than genetics' is a slap in the face for all good breeders including Br Adam, who spent a lifetime doing just that. Selection of the Queen Mother plus good rearing is the only answer. Regretfully there will always be breeders who are solely interested in numbers and the bottom line, but that does not include all of us! If one wants to breed their own queens, good, and I for one will offer any help to anyone who wants to try. But first you must establish what is good. If you are dissatisfied with your stock, then change it! There is no point in breeding from poor stock. All good rearing will do, is produce vigorous queens with good ovaries, which will lay lots of eggs, and maybe last longer in years. It will not improve the basic imperfections of the basic stock. This is why good breeders will spend a small fortune on selected breeder queens. Someone suggested replacing workers in long time queen cages with bees from the top of the hive. Bees in this position will be full grown and older. It is better to replace with young bees newly emerged. If you use old bees from a queen right hive there is a danger of them killing what they consider to be an interloper queen. Which might be the reason why someone reported parts missing from queens which had been banked. In that case they should be banked on their own, not with other workers. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:49:56 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: quality of queens I don't believe that the most important thing about a queen, is the way she is raised. I have proof here at Hybri-Bees that Genetics plays an important role. Having said that I will elaborate on the discussion at hand. I do belive that the way a queen is raised contributes to what she is able to do for the following reasons: Basic animal and insect Breeding is as follows Genenotype and the enviroment in which the individule is raised, is equal to the individule. Or to make it simple Genotype + Enviroment = the Individual. Having stated this know biology fact, it is clear that you can not have a really good queen without both. The fact of the mater is that with bees you have castes of females. The problem this makes for evaluation of the bees is the enviroment the indvidule is raised in determines its caste. So long as the enviroment the queen is raised in enables her to develop to 100% of the queen caste, then what the she becomes after that is due to her Genotype. The way a queen is raised has a lot to due with what she is in relation to the queen caste. It influences things such as the number of ovaries, morphology and if she is a true queen or an intercaste. The study of these factors is very well described in a book the name of which is QUEEN REARING Biological Basis and Technical Instruction. the book was Edited by Dr. F. Ruttner Printed in 1983. This book I belive will clear up many of the questions that you have and will also provide answers to questions already asked in regards to the rearing of queens. It also reveals strong support for the work done by Farrar. However If you read all of Dr. Ruttners books you will also see that he belives in genotype as well. The book Breeding Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the Honeybee written by Dr. Ruttner and published by the BIBBA in 1988 proves this and will also confirm that you need both to have a great queen. One other note the work in question was in fact done by Farrar. The other important place to look for this information is within the USDA. They have most of the obscure information that has been published in tech. bulletins around. A real good source for this information is WIC-WAS Press If I can be of any help with this issue please feel free to e-Mail direct. I am all to glad to help. It is refreshing to see that there are people that are concerned about their queens. Dean M. Breaux Executive Vice President Hybri-Bees Breeding Better Bees ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:11:40 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: Queen Breeding. I posted the comment on taking bees from the top of the hive as these workers are removed from the queen scent and are not old as they are still performiong hive dutys, also very young bees that are less than a day old are ill suited to take care of queens. All of the afore mentioned as it regards to age of bees and their hive fuctions are explained in the hive and the honey bee. If you look close at a queens court you will not see day old bees attending to a queen I have watched at least 30 queens in obsevation hives and do not see day old bees attending to a queen. If after you reaserch what I have said and still in doubt get 6 or 7 day old bees put them in a cage with a queen and ship them. I can assure you will have very poor results. One other note many queen breeders bulk fill their cages with bees from a hive and then place the queen in with them. This method is described in Contemporary Queen rearing By Harry Laidlaw on page 112. In refrence to missing body parts I have seen this with all types of banking systems AND THE QUEENS HAD NO ATTENDENTS in the cage. It has also been documented by many other reaserchers. Dean Breaux If I can be of any other help let me know. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:02:56 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Laura A. Downey" Subject: Ruined honey? I opened one of my supers today, to discover a royal mess! The comb and honey collapsed, making a sticky oozing mess all over the inner cover. There is not one single frame that has comb intact. (I had the inner cover with one-way exit in place to clear the super of bees.) There are dead bees mixed in with this mess. I used cut comb foundation in medium supers. Is it possible to salvage this honey for human consumption? I'd rather have it for myself, but will sacrifice it to the bees if I have to. How can I separate the honey from the wax and dead bees? Thanks in advance for all replies! Laura Downey Anne Arundel Co., Maryland corvi29@smart.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:18:30 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dan Mihalyfi Organization: sccoe Subject: Re: Ruined honey? Comments: cc: corvi29@smart.net > Is it possible to salvage this honey for human consumption? I'd rather have > it for myself, but will sacrifice it to the bees if I have to. How can I > separate the honey from the wax and dead bees? > Crush it all up by hand in a strainer, and then pass it through a fine mesh strainer cloth. The honey should taste fine, even if it had dead bees in it. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:34:41 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Queen Breeding. > To say that 'rearing is more important than genetics' is a slap in > the face for all good breeders including Br Adam, who spent a > lifetime doing just that. I don't think anyone said that. but I notice several people seemed to get that out of the discussion, so maybe some statements weren't clear, if so, and if any were mine, I apologise for poor writing. But if it were true, it would not detract from the importance of good genetics, it would only indicate that there is a very important co-factor. Additionally, it is not a slap, but a testament to these people that they are able to derive the best individual specimens of each genetic type to compare. This could only be accomplished by skillful queen rearing. What was said was that queens that are poorly raised are no good no matter how good the genetics might be. Moreover, the quality of queen rearing is likely to vary more than the quality of the genetics between two competitive queen producers -- IMO at least. In the previous posts, no comment was made about queens that were well raised from good stock except that in the study cited, the second generation queens all performed somewhat similarly. It is entirely possible, even likely that the original queens were all from selected stocks and had good genetics, and that the only difference was that some were not well produced -- possibly due to season, green help, demand pressure, or any of the myriad things that cause some commercial queen producers toi release substandard specimens to market. > Selection of the Queen Mother plus good rearing is the only > answer. That is exactly what everyone is agreed on -- in a nutshell. Both are essential. It is not a question of one or the other. Thanks for pointing that out. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:57:02 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: quality of queens The discussion about the relative importance of good rearing technique versus good breeding (so to speak) is a *nature versus nurture* issue. If you think about it some, you can see that some conclusions seem reasonable, even without documented research. (Although I'd like to see the research, too.) Lamarck and Lysenko aside, rearing queens by excellent or poor methods will have no effect on the genetic background of the queen or on the genetic makeup of her offspring (assuming adequate mating with unrelated drones). If queens of a particular line tend to produce large honey crops (through tremendous fecundity, or worker longevity, or hoarding behavior, or early build up, or whatever), then rearing methods will have no effect on the *potential* for that line to produce excellent queens whenever rearing conditions are also excellent. The individual worker bees produced from a bad queen with good genes should show the same longevity, hoarding behavior, etc. as they would if the queen had been excellent. Where poor queen rearing methods *can* diminish the honey production of a colony headed by a queen from a highly productive line seems to me to be limited to the effects on her ability to lay lots of worker eggs at the right time, that hatch into larvae that nurse bees like to care for. To the extent that queen rearing methods affect those characters, then they also should affect the honey production of her colony. Her offspring would be the same, but there wouldn't be as many of them. There seem to me to be lots of possible ways that poor rearing might result in poor fecundity or low brood viability. If I starve a queen cell or a newly-mated queen, will her mature ovaries produce fewer eggs, or eggs with lower inherent survivorship? Does a queen that emerges from a poorly-tended cell become unattractive to worker bees? Maybe big queens smell nicer than little queens, and get fed more often. A few weeks ago, I read here about a brood disease that resembled EFB, but was apparently caused by rejected larvae coming from a queen that was poorly fed during ovarian development. This would certainly affect honey production of her colony. Maybe a poorly-reared queen has some glandular imbalance that causes workers to ignore her eggs and larvae. I'm speculating on most all of this, but who knows? The general question of whether genetic background is more important than rearing methods seems to me to be so broad as to be unanswerable. If it is reasonable to say that rearing methods have a real effect on a queen's rate of reproduction (measured by emerging, healthy worker bees at the right time of year), then rearing methods should have a real effect on honey production, given queens of similar genetic backgrounds. Likewise, the queen's genetic background should also have a real effect on honey production, given queens raised under similar (and adequate) methods. Which one is more important than the other depends on which one happens to be the limiting factor in a given situation. Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 05:24:42 -0400 Reply-To: aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kevin R. Palm" Subject: When to requeen?? Comments: cc: ohbee-l@sun1.oardc.ohio-state.edu Hello all!! A quick question: My county bee inspector checked my hives this past weekend and advised me to requeen my failing Yugo hive, as it is very weak, especially compared to my Buckfast hive. When would be the best time to requeen? Now, so she can build up the colony for overwintering, or early fall, to take advantage of the fall flow?? This hive isn't doing me much good right now anyways, so I'd definitely appreciate some advice!!! Thanks, Kevin Palm -- Kevin R. Palm <*> Beekeeper (2 hives, 2nd year) Grafton, Ohio USA <*> RED DWARF/Babylon 5/NYPD Blue/ER/Pooh fa (25 miles SW of Cleveland) <*> "The future isn't what it used to be..." aa2363@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu <*> Member IECC/IECG/NOST/WTECC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:48:54 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Ruined honey? >I opened one of my supers today, to discover a royal mess! The comb and >honey collapsed, making a sticky oozing mess all over the inner cover. >There is not one single frame that has comb intact. (I had the inner cover >with one-way exit in place to clear the super of bees.) There are dead bees >mixed in with this mess. Yeeck! what a mess! I would dump the whole mess into a hive top feeder and let the bees clean it up. Any other way is real messy. Did you try clearing the bees on a hot day? When I 'do' cut comb I don't use a clearer board, just brush the bees off. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 08:07:19 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: When to requeen?? > A quick question: My county bee inspector checked my > hives this past weekend and advised me to requeen my failing > Yugo hive, as it is very weak, especially compared to my > Buckfast hive. When would be the best time to requeen? Now, > so she can build up the colony for overwintering, or early > fall, to take advantage of the fall flow?? This hive isn't > doing me much good right now anyways, so I'd definitely > appreciate some advice!!! Requeen ASAP. Delaying has no benefits whatsoever, but a new queen will get to work and rebuild the populations to a healthy level. Good wintering, as well as good crops depends on several successive generations of healthy balanced bee populations preparing the hive and increasing stores of honey and pollen. bees raised in stressed hives can be undernourished and incapable of making crops -- or overwintering. It will take 6 weeks after the new queen gets to work for the hive to become reasonably normal if it has run downhill very far. There are also risks in requeening, so you want to allow time for another try if the first attempt fails. Good luck . Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:20:31 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Allen Subject: Re: keeping caged queens Recently I lost a queen about four weeks after starting a new colony from a 3# package. I replaced her with another of unknown shipping and storage record. After two weeks there was no sign of eggs or brood. I was nearly pancked but after checking this morning I was relieved. New eggs ,larva and some capped brood in a tight pattern. Perhaps she had been held to long and was not in good health when received but with good syrup and good workers she is now on the way to a good career. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:18:56 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Allen Subject: Re: Queens and the postal dept. In Worcester County Massachusetts a friend received a shipment of over 100 3# packages in April and allin good condition. It just about filled the little post office where he lives and it all went well. They had been advised and were ready. The important thing is that the colonies were locked together and about 6 inches apart on wooden strips.No way that you cut off air. It is important that the shipper, the Postal Service and the receiver keep in good communication and that all take reasonable precautions. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 08:28:57 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: quality of queens > The general question of whether genetic background is more important > than rearing methods seems to me to be so broad as to be > unanswerable. If it is reasonable to say that rearing methods have > a real effect on a queen's rate of reproduction (measured by > emerging, healthy worker bees at the right time of year), then > rearing methods should have a real effect on honey production, given > queens of similar genetic backgrounds. Likewise, the queen's > genetic background should also have a real effect on honey > production, given queens raised under similar (and adequate) > methods. Which one is more important than the other depends on > which one happens to be the limiting factor in a given situation. Thanks for the intelligent discussion of the topic. Another factor which comes in is the expected productive life of the queen. Should she fail after introduction or some time during the year, production or even colony survival is at risk. Queens that are well raised definitely do last longer by far. When we started requeening regularly with our own carefully raised stock, we noticed a big drop in colonies that went drone layer over winter -- as well as weak colonies in fall. This of course results in larger production, and lower expense. The next question: Seeing as a number of writers have emphasized genetics as if it cannot be assumed to be reasonably equal between sources, what are the chances of buying a genetically poor queen from a commercial queen breeder? My assumption has been that that risk is lower than the risk of getting a poorly raised queen or one that has been banked too long, hence my assumption that we can assume good genetics and focus on the rearing methods and scrupulousness of the breeder. Maybe the breeders know something about this that I don't know. One thing I should point out is that several responders assumed local markets -- particularly USA and Eastern Canada -- and mid-season queen rearing. In our case, we were involved in buying offshore queens that were raised at the very end of the bee season in the counries in question and had losses approaching 30% in some batches. We assume that in this case the rearing and holding methods were the limiting factor -- by far. We also find need for queens in early spring and we have had some first hand experience with the quality problems that arise when trying to fight nature. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:49:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: chemical mis use of warnings > DON'T PUT FLUVALINATE IN YOUR HIVES UNLESS IT COMES IN THE APISTAN >STRIPS!!!!! The other formulations get into honey. You will end up with >contaminated honey. Do you want honey with poison in it? The last thing the >industry needs is a contaminated honey scare. >Shawna Roberts >Gypsy Bees >Hollister, California Let us not forget that the bee world is bigger then California and the USA and in many areas of the world there are other treatments other then the few so called recommended legal one's used in California and the USA. In fact there have been and may still be areas of the USA that have permits to use material's other then what we can use in California. NO one want's honey with poison in it, and NO ONE should be so confident about what they are today doing including FLUVALINATE when used according to the label directions, that do not guarantee that you do not get it in the honey, only at levels that are thought not to be harmful, TODAY, the same promise of any chemical used legally in the past, some of which have caused great harm to someone's environment with high confidence levels it was not because it was not legal, and not recommended and sadly used by all. I won't waste time in naming them other then there number now is greater then what can be used with reasonable safety today, and many of these former safe, legal and recommended chemicals are still in our environment years after their safe, legal, and recommended use was halted and manufacturing stopped. When you post such blanket statements as quoted above you are talking down to some people who may know more about controlling a pest that may be devastating to large number of beekeeper in the US or the world that are using the legal prescribed remedies without luck, and our future may be more dependent on what some one is trying today then on what we are all doing according to local bee or chemical laws or customs. I for one want to know what is going on, and I don't know a better way then for all of us to be tolerant and open about what we are doing. At the same time I do not suggest to anyone that they brake any law just to keep there bees healthy, or do I not understand that some in the bee regulatory, research, and bee extension business are sometimes compelled to remind us of the laws in their own area. I hope we beekeepers leave that job to them, its one of those dirty jobs that someone has to do.. ttul Andy- Los Banos, CA (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ "Where there is honey, there are beekeepers" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:49:30 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kriston M. Bruland" Subject: Re: When to requeen?? In-Reply-To: Allen Dick "Re: When to requeen??" (Jul 9, 8:07am) On Jul 9, 8:07am, Allen Dick wrote: > Subject: Re: When to requeen?? > > A quick question: My county bee inspector checked my > > hives this past weekend and advised me to requeen my failing > > Yugo hive, as it is very weak, especially compared to my > > Buckfast hive. When would be the best time to requeen? Now, > > so she can build up the colony for overwintering, or early > > fall, to take advantage of the fall flow?? This hive isn't > > doing me much good right now anyways, so I'd definitely > > appreciate some advice!!! > > Requeen ASAP. > > Delaying has no benefits whatsoever, but a new queen will get to work > and rebuild the populations to a healthy level. > You may also want to give them a frame of brood from the other hive, if it's strong enough. This will build the population faster. Kris Bruland Member of Mt. Baker Beekeeper's Association Bellingham, WA U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:04:54 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kriston M. Bruland" Subject: Foundation / Green Honey Hi Everyone, I've got two questions for the list: First, does anyone have suggestions for enticing bees to draw out foundation into comb? We're in the middle of a heavy blackberry flow here in Western Washington State, U.S.A., and my bees are bringing in a full and capped western super every 12 days when they are given comb. I have nine colonies. Now I'm out of comb and have given them some boxes of foundation, which have been largely ignored. Are there any tricks to making them draw it out, other than the "hurry up and wait" method I've used in previous years? I would like to have more boxes of comb so I don't have to extract so frequently, and to increase production. Also, last year I got some honey around blackberry time which had a distinctly light green color to it. The taste was mild and very good. I have heard that purple loosetrife (sp?) can produce this, but most of it has been eradicated here by a noxious weed control program. Does anyone know what else could make green honey? Another keeper in my bee association who doesn't live far away also had green honey. We have a booth at the state fair every year with a honey display and the variety of different kinds and colors is really amazing considering they are all produced locally. Thanks! Kris Bruland Member of Mt. Baker Beekeepers Association Bellingham, WA U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:04:10 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Subject: Re: Ruined honey? In-Reply-To: <199607082202.SAA27634@smarty.smart.net> from "Laura A. Downey" at Jul 8, 96 06:02:56 pm Laura; Number one, don't read too many expert bee books and expect them to apply to the southern part of the world (you are south of the Mason Dixon Line). It is too hot in this part of the world to use bee escapes. Having said that, you can salvage the honey by scooping it into a pair of panty hose or a paint strainer (available from commercial painting stores, get the 5 gallon size) and wring the mess out. The honey will be fine. Bill Lord Louisburg (94 F today) NC, USA > >I opened one of my supers today, to discover a royal mess! The comb and >honey collapsed, making a sticky oozing mess all over the inner cover. >There is not one single frame that has comb intact. (I had the inner cover >with one-way exit in place to clear the super of bees.) There are dead bees >mixed in with this mess. > >I used cut comb foundation in medium supers. > >Is it possible to salvage this honey for human consumption? I'd rather have >it for myself, but will sacrifice it to the bees if I have to. How can I >separate the honey from the wax and dead bees? > >Thanks in advance for all replies! > > >Laura Downey >Anne Arundel Co., Maryland >corvi29@smart.net > > -- WILLIAM G LORD E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 9194963344 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:24:53 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Ruined honey? > you can salvage the honey by scooping it > into a pair of panty hose or a paint strainer (available from > commercial painting stores, get the 5 gallon size) and wring the > mess out. The honey will be fine. That's good advice. I've been thinking about how many bees are in the mess. If there aren't too many, the main problem will be the wax. I've wondered about using a solar melter -- possibly jury-rigged for temporary use, seeing as it seems you have already started on the melting route, albeit accidently. This will avoid mashing the bees and allow the honey and wax to run off quietly. Another possibility is to put it into pails and place it in an oven or warming oven if your stove has one at a temperature around 200 degrees F -- warm enough to melt everything and cool enough not to melt the plastic pail. The wax will form a skin on top, and the bees and honey will be in layers below. I used this before I set up an old fridge with light bulbs for the job. If you time things right, the honey shouldn't be overheated (much). My main reservation is the number of bees. A few won't matter, but a large number might affect the honey -- even if they are candied, since wringing might cause the entire mashed bee to become part of the recovered honey. Good luck. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:50:43 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Subject: royal jelly packs Bee Liners; I am interested in learning about processing royal jelly for sale. I am going to Eastern Europe next month to work with a small company that wants to learn to process the product. Any information would be appreciated. Bill Lord -- WILLIAM G LORD E-Mail : wglord@franklin Internet: wglord@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : 9194963344 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:47:54 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Moroney Subject: Re: Some odd queen questions In-Reply-To: <<199607061506.PAA16573@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca> Thanks for the reply. > I suggest that if the queen has not yet been > released then either: > 1. There is a queen somewhere in the colony. Very unlikely since I made a "package" from another hive and the location of the marked queen of that hive was known. > 2. There are queen cells somewhere in the colony. Even less likely, see above. > 3. The candy is too hard for the bees to remove. Could be although it didn't seem hard and it appeared they didn't even try to eat it. I think the real reason was the bees were moved into a winter-killed hive which had lots of honey in it, some leaking (and fermenting - yuk). Regardless when I released the queen she seemed to be accepted since I saw another bee feed her almost immediately. All for nought, they were dead a few weeks later. I figure the bees were just plain too old to take care of the queen (or even survive) before brood emerged once she finally had a chance to lay. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:45:32 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Piepenburg, Joel R." Subject: Willmar, Minnesota At the end of July, I will be moving to the Willmar, Minnesota area, and would like to contact some beekeepers in that area, with the idea of trying to learn more about beekeeping from an experienced beekeeper. I have kept bees for the last couple, and know enough about beekeeping to be dangerous (to the bees), but would like to learn more. Anyone knowing the name, phone number, or email address of beekeepers in that area, please send a note to my personal email address (not to the list!!). Thank-you. *****************Have a Great Day!!!***************** Joel Piepenburg Information Services 507-284-8818 Internet=jpiepenburg@mayo.edu Officevision=AP00149 ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 13:32:32 PDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Day Subject: Re: Sulpher against wax moths sulphur is / was sold as a small block with a wick in it, much like a candle and would burn for a few hours. check with your local hardware store. (\ John /) {|||8- in -8|||} (/ Santa Cruz \) California ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:58:10 +1000 Reply-To: timl@ion.com.au Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Timothy Lynch Organization: Sun Energy Subject: bee image Guys where can I get some pictures of bees? Please email me at timl@ion.com.au ta! Christopher Langlands www.ourplanet.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 14:37:57 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Swarm Hi, Paul. I stopped at the Cota St. magnolia tree this morning and sized up the situation somewhat --- though I will have to inspect the area more closely when time permits. It certainly is not far from the Olive/Haley St. location (across from the church on Olive), which has received a couple of swarms in the recent past. The fact that the swarm was up in that tree means that the parent colony from which the swarm issued is likely to be close by. That is, when swarms first emerge, they cluster right nearby, usually spend a few days there, and then move on to the new location. In Montecito, you can see a feral colony in a large pepper tree at 440 Cota Lane (what a coincidence!), between East Pepper Lane and East Valley Road. You need not go into the property, since the best view of the activity is from the street, about 10' up the tree (at the hedge top). Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 11:35:44 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Swarming and varroa Comments: cc: SOCINSCT@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Sorry, Folks. I meant the message about the Cota St. swarm in Santa Barbara to go only to Paul Cronshaw. I thought I was replying to another message he had sent me personally. How about a message now that might interest the entire network (and those on the Social Insect network)? ************** All of you might be interested in the fact that we have had a high incidence of swarming in our region, even in areas where we know of no one keeping bees and in a year of low rainfall. Also, I have spoken with some beekeepers in our region, who have reported an abnormally high incidence of swarming in their managed colonies. In the above connection, consider the following circumstances: 1) Quite a few scientists are now trying to find a feral colony somewhere that might have a special hygienic or other characteristic that might permit them to survive the varroa infestation. 2) If one finds such a colony, it would be only the beginning of a long, arduous experimental procedure to mate and select queens to find out what trait might be responsible for that resistance. 3) Unfortunately, our European bees have become highly mongrelized by the indiscriminate transportation of bees all over the world. Each colony thus has a great number of uncertain characteristics, maybe only one of which might help fend off varroa. ******* Let us instead consider an entire group of feral and commercial honey bee colonies infested with varroa mites in a given region (one must consider all such colonies as part of complex, due to robbing and in-air mating). Without a carefully scheduled application of Apistan, formic acid, or other treatment, which colonies might survive? HYPOTHESIS: I believe that we can expect that those colonies with a high propensity to swarm will be the ones most likely to survive varroa infestation --- according to the following rationale: 1) The swarming event breaks the mite reproduction process, permitting both parent and offspring colonies to begin a new lease on life. 2) The healthiest drones that circulate about in the drone aggregation areas will be those from colonies naturally selected for a high propensity to swarm. 3) Those drones will be the healthiest and will be the most likely to mate with queens on their mating flights. 4) The end result will be an ever-increasing propensity for frequent swarming, just as occurs in the Africanized bee colonies. ******** Implications for beekeeping: 1) One can expect swarming rates to increase. 2) A new protocol for beekeepers to follow might be for rather frequent colony division (artificial swarming) as part of their management program, with later uniting of colonies once the mite reproduction cycle has been broken. I will need to think a little more about this last point. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:50:43 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Foundation / Green Honey >First, does anyone have suggestions for enticing bees to draw out foundation >into comb? We're in the middle of a heavy blackberry flow here in Western >Now I'm out of comb and have given them some boxes of foundation, which have >been largely ignored. Are there any tricks to making them draw it out, other >than the "hurry up and wait" method I've used in previous years? I would like We have found a quick way to pull bees up into foundation is to move open honey frames up into and interleave the new top box. We also do this with sealed brood when adding a second box. >Also, last year I got some honey around blackberry time which had a distinctly >light green color to it. The taste was mild and very good. I have heard that >purple loosetrife (sp?) can produce this, but most of it has been eradicated >here by a noxious weed control program. Does anyone know what else could >make green honey. I bet ten to one your bees have been in the Basswood or Lime trees. We have a lot of Basswood and our honey at that time is distinctly pale green and has a slight minty flavour. Our Basswood are late this year, and only just coming into bloom. **************************************************** * David Eyre 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, * * The Beeworks, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1. * * beeworks@muskoka.net 705-326-7171 * * http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks * * Agents for: E H Thorne & B J Sherriff UK. * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:18:08 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bee dance reply - I Comments: To: Social Insect Biology Research Comments: cc: entomo-l@uoguelph.ca, hadfield@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu, schram@popmail.bio.uva.nl, cveldink@ctc.edu, iscp@sci.uw.edu.pl, greenber@twsuvm.BITNET, massaro@fuzzy.ucsc.edu, gmichel@condor.depaul.edu, moorec@umbsky.cc.umb.edu, tobach@amnh.org, VADASR@cwsvan.dots.doe.ca, VADAS@MAINE.MAINE.EDU, BIOL_HW@centum.utulsa.edu, barthell@aix1.ucok.edu, buchmann@ccit.arizona.edu, ohtani@nat-musuem.sanda.hyogo.jp, jschmidt@ccit.arizona.edu We have once again had a flurry of exchange on the honey bee language controversy --- the fourth time in a little more than a year on various networks (this time primarily on the SOCINSCT network). Not much new seems to have emerged, particularly since bee language proponents have yet to address fully the list of 16 problems with the dance language hypothesis that I posted on the Internet last January. Some points, though, beg for further comment. However, Bruno Latour's 1987 comment (as quoted in the book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY...) applies here: "We have to understand first how many elements can be brought to bear on a controversy; once this is understood, the other problems will be easier to solve." Rather than attempt to reply to the several points raised in one lengthy message, I will post sequentially a few relatively short comments about each point raised in the last few weeks. ******** FIRST COMMENT (Just what is the bee language hypothesis?): We once had a concise statement of the language hypothesis, but too much evidence is now at variance with that original hypothesis (as outlined in the 16 points posted in January). Some individuals still have a deep attachment to the idea of a "language" use by honey bees but seem to no longer embrace any concise scientific statement of that hypothesis. Under the circumstances, Julian O'Dea's alternative ("idiothetic/mnemonic") hypothesis seems as likely as the dance language hypothesis as an explanation for the teleological question, "Why do bees dance?" (He asked: "But why has so little attention been paid to the possibility that the bees do the dances [in order to memorize] the location of resources?") Deep conviction to a hypothesis may reflect an unconscious commitment to a status quo attitude of the scientific community; however, as one scientist wrote (paraphrased): The strength of a conviction has no bearing on whether a scientific hypothesis is true or not. (In that connection, witness what happened with the "cold fusion" episode). Enlightment on that point may be found in one section of an excellent book, as follows: Fleck, Ludwik. 1935. Pp. 20-51 in GENESIS AND DEVELOPMENT OF A SCIENTIFIC FACT. Univ. of Chicago Press. (translated into English and republished in 1979. [To order (only about US$12): 1-(800) 621-2736 --- ISBN: 0-226-25325-2] Look for the SECOND COMMENT that follows shortly (why "compromise" has little place in science). Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:52:27 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bee dance reply - II Comments: To: SOCINSCT@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Comments: cc: entomo-l@uoguelph.ca, hadfield@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu, schram@popmail.bio.uva.nl, cveldink@ctc.edu, iscp@sci.uw.edu.pl, greenber@twsuvm.BITNET, massaro@fuzzy.ucsc.edu, gmichel@condor.depaul.edu, moorec@umbsky.cc.umb.edu, tobach@amnh.org, VADASR@cwsvan.dots.doe.ca, VADAS@MAINE.MAINE.EDU, BIOL_HW@centum.utulsa.edu, barthell@aix1.ucok.edu, buchmann@ccit.arizona.edu, ohtani@nat-musuem.sanda.hyogo.jp, jschmidt@ccit.arizona.edu, HPSST-L@QUCDN.QueensU.CA On the question of bee "language": ******** SECOND COMMENT ("Compromise" does not lead to progress in science) In this recent interchange we were once again asked to believe: "1) sometimes the bees do dances, and their nestmates use the information in these dances to influence where they themselves seek forage, and 2) [at] other times the bees still do the dances but their nestmates make little or no use of the dance information [as to] where they end up foraging." That position seems to serve as a "security blanket" of sorts. If I do an experiment with only single controls (as von Frisch, Gould, and other language proponents have done) I can get results supportive of the language hypothesis --- that is, condition #1 (above) prevails. However, if I do strong inference or double controlled experiments (as Wenner and co-workers did) and obtain evidence not in agreement with the language hypothesis (whatever that might be now), then condition #2 (above) prevails. We thus have a peculiar circumstance --- any set of results is acceptable, and we need not concern ourselves with hypothesis testing. However, where would we be today if geneticists in the 1940s and 1950s had compromised, as follows: "sometimes DNA carries the genetic information and sometimes protein carries that information." (Would we have "genetic engineering" today?) Or, what if Pasteur and fellow scientists had compromised: "sometimes life arises by spontaneous generation and sometimes life can only come from life." (Would we have pasteurized milk today?) I suggest that bee language proponents now get together and agree upon a concise scientific statement of the hypothesis they believe in, one that can be tested experimentally. (Language proponents now seem to agree that the conclusions of von Frisch were not justified on the basis of the evidence he had gathered.) On this point I am reminded of a recent statement by Harold B. Hopfenberg (1996. "Why wars are lost." AMERICAN SCIENTIST. 84:102-104): "The biased hypothesis...provides valuable scaffolding for sincere inquiry as long as the methodology and subsequent interpretation of data do not result in the confusion of hypothesis with conclusion." Look for the THIRD COMMENT that follows shortly (Why scientists necessarily rely more on experimental results than on "consensus"). Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 893-2838 (UCSB office) Ecol., Evol., & Marine Biology (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara (805) 963-8508 (home office & FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:30:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: mvdfv@mvcss.att.com Subject: Baggie Feeder Comments: To: att!BEE-L@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU Noticed for sale this year a new way to feed bees. It's called baggie feeding. BM sells them. They look like a cut down honey super. Does the baggie feeder have a bottom? Dave Verville Plaistow, NH mvdfv@mvcss.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:31:22 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Foundation / Green Honey At 10:04 AM 7/9/96 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Everyone, > >I've got two questions for the list: > >First, does anyone have suggestions for enticing bees to draw out foundation >into comb? We're in the middle of a heavy blackberry flow here in Western >Washington State, U.S.A., and my bees are bringing in a full and capped western >super every 12 days when they are given comb. I have nine colonies. > >Now I'm out of comb and have given them some boxes of foundation, which have >been largely ignored. Are there any tricks to making them draw it out, other >than the "hurry up and wait" method I've used in previous years? I would like >to have more boxes of comb so I don't have to extract so frequently, and to >increase production. Place a frame or 2 of foundation in every super used during the flow. They will at lease start drawing it. I have always found it difficult to draw full boxes. With 2 frames in a box (not side-be-side) you may find that other frames are full and caped and the foundation is drawn somewhat and only a little honey is stored. Extract the box anyway and the next time around the new frames will be treated as any other frame of drawn comb. Good luck. by the way - what is a 'Western super'? Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:43:48 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Milkweed - risky pollination I observed bees pollinating milkweed plants and noticed that the pollen packets got stuck to their legs. Frequently the bees expended great effort trying to free themselves and after getting free spent a long time trying to get the packets off their legs. I even found a couple bees that died in the process, dangling, one leg firmly stuck to the flower!. Has anyone else noticed this, and are there other plants that are potentially lethal in this way? The succes rate on polination is very low with only one or two of the flowers going to seed. It seems to be a different pollination mechanism from the typical powdery pollen of most plants bees visit. The milkweed nectar seems to flow most of the day and night as I also noticed moths at night on the flowers and bees and ants at all times during the day. The nectar is very aromatic and I had noticed the aroma coming from my hives in the evening before realizing that is was milkweed. Last question, what is the quality of milkweed honey? Thanks in advance, Jim Moore moore@aiag.enet.dec.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:18:52 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "(Kevin & Shawna Roberts)" Subject: Re: chemical mis use of warnings >Let us not forget that the bee world is bigger then California and >the USA and in many areas of the world there are other treatments other >then the few so called recommended legal one's used in California and >the USA. In fact there have been and may still be areas of the USA that >have permits to use material's other then what we can use in California. I will internationalize my statement: Do not put any fluvalinate in your hives that is not properly registered for use in bee hives. Mites becoming resistant to fluvalinate is not just a U.S. concern; it is a world-wide concern. Improper use will hasten the time when fluvalinate will no longer control the mites. >...our future may >be more dependent on what some one is trying today then on what we are >all doing according to local bee or chemical laws or customs. >I for one want to know what is going on, and I don't know a better way >then for all of us to be tolerant and open about what we are doing. At >the same time I do not suggest to anyone that they brake any law just to >keep there bees healthy, or do I not understand that some in the bee >regulatory, research, and bee extension business are sometimes compelled >to remind us of the laws in their own area. I hope we beekeepers leave >that job to them, its one of those dirty jobs that someone has to do. I love it when beekeepers try other methods of treatment. I think that it is their willingness to take risks that will give us alternatives to fluvalinate, when the mites develop resistance to it. I am very interested in the people who are experimenting with the plant-based essential oils like spearmint oil and the Mite Solution stuff. I wish them well, and hope they are successful. I would never discourage anyone from experimenting with new ideas. However, when beekeepers use an unregistered formula of fluvalinate, they are not trying anything new. We already know fluvalinate works. They are just being cheap, and endangering the reputation of the industry and the livelihood of other beekeepers as well. When it comes to defending my livelihood, I don't believe it is proper to leave the "dirty" work solely to the regulatory guys. It's not their bees who will die when the Apistan stops working; it's not their honey that won't sell because the general public suddenly gets the idea that honey is loaded with pesticide. Some situations call for being tolerant and some situations call for telling someone that what they are doing is wrong; apparently we disagree about the appropriate action for this particular situation. That's okay; we can agree to disagree. By the way, my original concern was over a gentleman who had placed "apistan treated honeycomb" in his hives. He has since written me and explained that he was not inventing a creative treatment for mites. He was feeding honey that had been in a super on a hive when he had treated with Apistan. Rather than extract it, he was feeding it back to the bees, because he considered it contaminated. So my concern in this case was unfounded.... Regards, Shawna Roberts Gypsy Bees Hollister, CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:44:07 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kriston M. Bruland" Subject: Re: Foundation / Green Honey In-Reply-To: Eric Abell "Re: Foundation / Green Honey" (Jul 10, 3:31pm) On Jul 10, 3:31pm, Eric Abell wrote: > Subject: Re: Foundation / Green Honey > Good luck. > > by the way - what is a 'Western super'? > > Eric Abell > Gibbons, Alberta Canada > (403) 998 3143 > eabell@compusmart.ab.ca >-- End of excerpt from Eric Abell Hi Eric and all, "Western" is the term commonly used here for a Dadant 6 5/8" medium honey super. I didn't realize that this term might be a local one until now! Kris Bruland Member of Mt. Baker Beekeepers Association Bellingham, WA U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:01:10 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Florida Extension Apiculturist" Subject: Last issue of APIS! To receive further copies, please subscribe to Apis-L. Distributed to: USR:[MTS]INTERNET.DIS;87, mts This is the last copy to be sent to this list. From now on, all issues will go only to the Apis-L list as described in the attached issue of this newsletter Tom Sanford FILENAME: JULAPIS.96 Florida Extension Beekeeping Newsletter Apis--Apicultural Information and Issues (ISSN 0889-3764) Volume 14, Number 7, July 1996 Copyright (c) 1996 M.T. Sanford "All Rights Reserved" THE APIS-L LIST--APIS GOES INTERACTIVE Electronic delivery of this newsletter has changed not only how it is distributed, but the very nature of the publication itself (see December 1995 APIS). Originally it was a paper document carrying on the tradition of information delivery begun back in the 1950s. I began to send out the newsletter as electronic copy in 1984 on BITNET (Because It's Time Network) which has now been retired in favor of the Internet. It was a short-year-and-a-half ago (see January 1994 APIS) that I noticed it was being collected at several Gopher sites around the country. All back issues are now mounted on our site at the College of Agriculture (IFAS): (gopher://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/11gopher_root3%3a%5bdatabase%5d). One added advantage of this (for IFAS ONLINE users only at the moment) is that it is keyword searchable. In October 1994, I reported that this publication had its own World Wide Web site: (http://www.gnv.ifas.ufl/~entweb/apis/apis.htm). This makes it possible to follow certain topics by linking to past issues. In spite of these archives, I continue to get requests from around the world to receive the newsletter electronically as it is published. In accordance with its mission (see June 1996 APIS), this newsletter is still available in a paper version to residents of Florida only and can be requested in writing or by telephone, either through county agents or this office. The paper edition is sent to about 800 subscribers, down from its high of 1,800 in 1972. I have also maintained a list of those asking for the electronic copy and have routinely delivered each issue to the BEE-L discussion list (BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU), which has more than 450 subscribers and several other lists. To make it easier to comply with requests for the electronic version and to take the APIS traffic off other lists, I have resorted to an automatic list manager at the Northeast Regional Data Center (NERDC) on this campus. Anyone around the globe can now automatically subscribe to this newsletter electronically via the Internet. During the two weeks after my preliminary announcement, some 155 persons had already added themselves to the list. It's easy to do. Send an electronic message to: LISTSERV@NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU, and on the first line of text, enter the following: subscribe Apis-L First Name Last Name You should receive a verification message to send back. After that, the listserver will send a final confirmation that you are added to the list. Using the Apis-L list has advantages. I no longer have to keep up with requests for subscriptions and deletions; interested persons can subscribe or unsubscribe at will; other lists do not have to carry full issues of the newsletter. The listserv program also gives subscribers other options, including reviewing the subscription list to find e-mail addresses. Anyone on the list can also send a message out to everyone else, providing an opportunity for subscribers themselves to add to and comment on the newsletter's contents. Finally, I, or any other subscriber, can send occasional tidbits of information to the list which I might add to the paper edition. I did this recently, reporting informally on my recent trip to Uruguay and Brazil in conjunction with bee meetings. There are some downsides to using a listserv. Although the technology has been around awhile, many people still don't use it correctly. Those new to the automatic discussion list concept inevitably make errors and violate list "netiquette" as they learn its use Because an unthinking machine is managing the list, self-interested subscribers can take over the list for their own purposes. This is particularly true for those who engage in "spamming," sending out commercial messages to huge numbers of people whether they want them or not. Electronic junk mail may also be generated by subscribers who purposely or naively monopolize the list to espouse their own points of view. As a consequence, here are some initial guidelines for the Apis-L list that I'm asking subscribers to adhere to: 1. Use the list only to comment about specific topics mentioned in the APIS newsletter. Please don't submit general beekeeping questions or queries. These should be sent to either the BEE-L or the USENET group (alt.agriculture.beekeeping), which are designed to handle these kinds of things. 2. Use the "reply" button with care; this command will usually send your message and a copy of what you receive. I have received thank you notes for sending the newsletter, for example. However, a full copy of the APIS issue for which I am being thanked was attached. In order to see the one word "thanks," I have had to page through six screens. Besides the annoyance, some subscribers may have to pay for every word received from the list. They could wind up paying the APIS electronic freight a huge number of times! Beyond automated delivery, implementing the Apis-L list could be a huge change for author and subscribers. In the past the paper edition, authored by myself, was a one-sided view of events. Now, however, the readership is able to become more involved; the newsletter can be more "interactive." As an example, I plan to submit the newsletter first to the list for feedback before issuing the final paper copy. Subscribers will, therefore, have a chance to correct any errors or add important points before the paper and World Wide Web editions are published. In essence, the electronic readership will now have more "ownership" of the document. These are privileges and responsibilities not to be taken lightly, however. I will be interested to see how the readership responds. MORE ON DOMESTICATION Beyond the communication I got asking whether honey bee domestication was relevant to my audience (see April and June 1996 APIS), I also received notes from several folks who were intrigued with the topic. Jennie Bester (Jbester@idpr1.agric.za) in Zambia quoted from a book, Domesticated Animals from Early Times by Juliet Clutton-Brock, published by British Museum (Natural History), London and William Heinemann Ltd., 10 Upper Grosvenor Street, London W1X9PA in 1981, concerning the criteria for domestication. She said these were proposed by Francis Galton about 1865 and are still used today by archeozoologists. Candidate organisms should: 1. Be hardy, requiring minimum care. 2. Have an inborn liking for humans; be a social animal whose behavioral patterns are based on a dominance hierarchy so that it will accept man as the leader, and will remain imprinted on him in adult life. 3. Be comfort-loving and not be adapted for instant flight as are, for example, many members of the antelope, gazelle and deer families. These animals will not feed or breed readily if constrained in a pen or herded too close together. 4. Be found useful. 5. Breed freely, a necessary factor for successful domestication, as can be seen from the difficulty of maintaining breeding colonies of many species in zoos, even under the most favorable conditions. 6. Be easy to tend. The honey bee fits most of the above points. I wonder what most readers think about numbers two and three. In the end, however, the insect may not qualify, as Ms. Bester further quotes Galton: "A man irritates a dog by an ordinary laugh, he frightens him by an angry look, or he calms him by a kindly bearing; but he has less spontaneous hold over an ox or a sheep. He must study their ways and tutor his behavior before he can understand the feeling of those animals or make his own intelligible to them. He has no natural power at all over many other creatures. Who for instance, ever succeeded in frowning away a mosquito, or in pacifying an angry wasp by a smile." Perhaps, Ms. Bester concludes, the honey bee is merely an endangered species dependant on humans for its survival. NATIONAL HONEY BOARD REFERENDUM Next month is set for the third National Honey Board referendum. Formal notice was published in the Federal Register on July 2. Ballots will be mailed to known producers, producer- packers and honey importers in July; voting will take place between the first and 31st of August. Those eligible must have done business from January 1, 1994 through December 31, 1995. If you do not receive a ballot and are eligible, contact Richard Schultz, Research and Promotion Branch, Fruit and Vegetable Division, Agriculture Marketing Service, USDA, Room 2535-S, P.O. Box 96456, Washington, DC 20090-6456, tel 202/720-5976. In two previous referendums, according to Mr. Troy Fore, Secretary-Treasurer of the American Beekeeping Federation, the National Honey Board has received widespread support. Initial approval of the Board in 1986 was voted by 87.5 percent of those voting, representing 87.3 percent of honey produced and imported by all voters. The followup vote in 1991 was even more supportive; 90.73 percent of voters approved continuation. They represented 89.01 percent of honey produced and imported by all those voting. These favorable ratings are also found in other commodity programs. In his March/April 1996 newsletter, Mr. Fore relayed the results of a survey by The Agricultural Issues Forum made up of 15 different California commodity organizations. Eighty-one percent of farmers and public policy leaders found mandated programs to be "very important" or "important" for doing research, responding to legislative/regulatory issues and providing information to farmers and advertisers. The overriding conclusion was that commodity organizations serve a vital communications link between producers and consumers. For voters who need more information, I recommend the Official National Honey Board Handbook. This document discusses the history of the organization and shows in graphic detail the rise in retail honey prices since the Board was formed. In 1986, 60 million pounds were sold in the United States. Ever since, however, there has been an annual increase in most years, reaching a high of 90 million pounds sold on the retail market in 1995. The Handbook lists the following efforts that have contributed to much of this increased demand: full-color advertisements in many national magazines; new and improved uses for honey; affordable marketing materials; recipes, press releases and photographs; honey hotline information; regular newsletter; market research; and others. The results of many of these efforts have been reported in the pages of this newsletter (see February and March 1995 APIS). A breakdown of the funding for the Board is also shown in the Handbook: Advertising and Public Relations 51.5% Product Research and Technology 21.2% Office Expenses 9.2% Export Marketing 8.7% Industry Relations 4.5% Board Expenses 2.8% USDA Expenses 2.2% Finally, the publication concludes with a list of things it cannot do based on its charter. These include: lobbying Congress directly, suggesting how much producers should charge for honey, and setting quality standards for honey. For a copy of the Handbook, send a request to the Board, 390 Lashley St., Longmont, CO 80501-6045, ph 800/553-7162. Sincerely, Malcolm T. Sanford Bldg 970, Box 110620 University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Phone (904) 392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX: 904-392-0190 BITNET Address: MTS@IFASGNV; INTERNET Address: MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU APIS on the World Wide Web-- http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apis.htm Copyright (c) M.T. Sanford 1996 "All Rights Reserved" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:38:56 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Neighbor's Swimming Pool; honeybee nuisance My neighbor has a swimming pool about 50 m from my apiary which consists of 17 top bar hives. I have tubs of water for the bees to use near my hives. The bees do pick up water from the tubs which have plants, a concrete block, and mesh screen for the bees to move on when picking up water. The bees also pick up water at two bird baths at the same neighbor's house. There are streams nearby where they can water also as well as two lakes within a km. A problem arises from honeybees getting into the pool then stinging them or visitors when they swim. I went over to the pool to see if they were picking up water at the pool. They apparently are not, but rather were flying into the pool...perhaps disoriented with respect to the location of the pool surface which was calm at that time. I suggested that he adjust the output of the pool pump circulation to make the surface of the pool have a ripple. He did this and we watched for a while, but bees would still fly into the pool, especially at the calmer end away from the pump influx. There may be a hundred or more bees that fly into the pool on a sunny day with no pump circulation. Any suggestions for remedying the situation would be appreciated. I don't like for the bees that I'm keeping to be a nuisance for my neighbor...we get along well. I don't think that the bees are going after chlorinated water though I've read of that before. Do any of you add NaCl to tubs of water that you provide your bees?? Do bees "prefer" chlorinated water or salty water?? You may wish to email me directly with any comments that you have. I'll summarize your responses if you deem this thread not to be of general interest to BEE-L subscribers. BTW, I saw the giant European hornet *Vespa crabro* at my hives yesterday. This was the first sighting this year. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:35:55 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kriston M. Bruland" Subject: Re: Neighbor's Swimming Pool; honeybee nuisance Comments: cc: biojdsx@panther.Gsu.EDU In-Reply-To: James D Satterfield "Neighbor's Swimming Pool; honeybee nuisance" (Jul 10, 5:38pm) On Jul 10, 5:38pm, James D Satterfield wrote: > Subject: Neighbor's Swimming Pool; honeybee nuisance > My neighbor has a swimming pool about 50 m from my apiary which consists > of 17 top bar hives. I have tubs of water for the bees to use near my > hives. The bees do pick up water from the tubs which have plants, a > concrete block, and mesh screen for the bees to move on when picking up > water. The bees also pick up water at two bird baths at the same > neighbor's house. There are streams nearby where they can water also as > well as two lakes within a km. > > There may be a hundred or more bees that fly into the pool on a sunny day > with no pump circulation. Any suggestions for remedying the situation > would be appreciated. I don't like for the bees that I'm keeping to be a > nuisance for my neighbor...we get along well. Hi Jim, If you just put the water out near your hives, it will take about 3 weeks time for the bees to use this water only and not visit the pool, and even then the still may not. I read somewhere (Hive and the Honeybee?) that the old bees will continue to use the pool until they die off, but the newer ones which hatch will probably use the closer water source. For faster results, you could relocate the hive, wait about 5 days for the bees to reorient, and then move it back to your house. Then they hopefully would discover the close water source and use it exclusively. Also, this would show whether all the bees in the pool are yours. If bees continued to appear after moving yours, they would be from another source, which is possible. Good Luck! Kris Bruland Member of Mt. Baker Beekeepers Association Bellingham, WA U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:18:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Michael L. Wallace" Subject: Re: Foundation / Green Honey At 10:04 7/9/96 -0700, you wrote: >I've got two questions for the list: > >First, does anyone have suggestions for enticing bees to draw out foundation >into comb? We're in the middle of a heavy blackberry flow here in Western >Washington State, U.S.A., and my bees are bringing in a full and capped western >super every 12 days when they are given comb. I have nine colonies. > >Now I'm out of comb and have given them some boxes of foundation, which have >been largely ignored. Are there any tricks to making them draw it out, other >than the "hurry up and wait" method I've used in previous years? I would like >to have more boxes of comb so I don't have to extract so frequently, and to >increase production. > I know that it's tempting to want the bees to draw comb quickly, because it means potentially more production. However, to try to force them to pull wax, right now, is self defeating. You say you're in the middle of a flow. If you want them to pull wax right now, they will have to consume stores to make the wax. Plus, you will be taking bees away from the storing process to make wax. For right now, keep extracting and rotating the supers you have, until the flow is over with. Then, once it's over, you can artifically stimulate them to pull wax by feeding them sugar or corn syrup. >Also, last year I got some honey around blackberry time which had a distinctly >light green color to it. The taste was mild and very good. I have heard that >purple loosetrife (sp?) can produce this, but most of it has been eradicated >here by a noxious weed control program. Does anyone know what else could make >green honey? Another keeper in my bee association who doesn't live far away >also had green honey. We have a booth at the state fair every year with a >honey display and the variety of different kinds and colors is really amazing >considering they are all produced locally. > Can't answer this one. Haven't ever seen green honey. However, just last night we extracted bright yellow honey (maybe clover?). >Thanks! > >Kris Bruland >Member of Mt. Baker Beekeepers Association >Bellingham, WA U.S.A. > Cheers, Mike Wallace Sar Shalom Apiary McKinney, Texas USA "Out of the heart, the mouth speaks." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:10:00 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Organization: WILD BEE'S BBS (209) 826-8107 LOS BANOS, CA Subject: BEES LOOKING FOR HOME originally in conference IN-BEEKEEPIN on WILDBEES (WILD BEE'S BBS) ---------------------------------------- *FYI* fREE bEEs From: "Sue Sloan [L-Team]" <75300.1157@CompuServe.COM> Date: 10 Jul 96 13:19:59 EDT Subject: Still have bees Andy, I apologize ahead of time for bothering you again, but the beekeeper that I thanked you for did not work out. But, I have had the area where the bees are located under a roof edge opened up so they would be real easy for someone to "vacuum out" at this point. There are 8 combs about 4 feet long!!! Around 60,000 bees, and they are VERY HEALTHY. They survived the very bad winter up here in N Y and also do not appear to have the mite problem I have heard about. So, could you post a message to see if a local person would like to finish removing these bees??? They can have the bees free, if I can keep the honey.. Local to me is Westchester/Putnam/Orange counties in NY, Farifield county in Connecticut. Also northern NJ is close enough. Thanks again. I would really like to see these bees saved! Sue Sloan 914-764-8376, Pound Ridge, NY --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ - Busy As A Bee With This Mail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:25:09 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jean-Pierre Chapleau Subject: Quality of queens Cliff van Eaton wrote: << According to Steve, Farrar came to the conclusion that the stock from this particular queen rearer was not any better genetically than that available anywhere else. Farrar found that when they reared queens from the queen rearer's stock and stock obtained from the poorer performing stock, all resulting stocks performed similarly. Steve says in the article that "it wasn't the stock that so so good, it was the queen breeder himself" (ie, the way he reared his queens). The thing that stood out in his queen rearing was his care and selection of each queen and queen cell at every step of the production cycle. >> I can send any of you very good producing stock but there is little chance that you can rear from these queens daughters that would be as good as their mothers. You would have to work as hard as I do as a minimum. Anybody can graft from a good queen. Most of the time the daughters will have great variations in their performance. What you will have to do is graft from several good queens from the selected stock, evaluate the daughters from each breeder queen and pick the one that has the best and more stable offspring. You may loose also some quality because you do not have mating areas stuffed with drones from a good compatible stock. To be a good breeder you have to have some good genetics but you also have to know how to use it. Jean-Pierre Chapleau eleveur de reines / queen breeder 1282 rang, 8 St-Adrien-de-Ham, Quebec, Canada chapleau@login.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:53:31 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kevin & Ann Christensen Subject: mites- plant some herbs? I recently heard about someone planting spearmint ect. in their bee = yards and that it was an effective control for mites. I assume it was = t-mites. Maybe it's a big joke. Sounds interesting. Any comments? Kevin Christensen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:15:01 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: quality of queens Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <199607091319.AA31539@internode.net> On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Allen Dick wrote: > > The general question of whether genetic background is more important > > than rearing methods seems to me to be so broad as to be > > unanswerable. If it is reasonable to say that rearing methods have > > a real effect on a queen's rate of reproduction (measured by > > emerging, healthy worker bees at the right time of year), then > > rearing methods should have a real effect on honey production, given > > queens of similar genetic backgrounds. Likewise, the queen's > > genetic background should also have a real effect on honey > > production, given queens raised under similar (and adequate) > > methods. Which one is more important than the other depends on > > which one happens to be the limiting factor in a given situation. > > Thanks for the intelligent discussion of the topic. > > Another factor which comes in is the expected productive life of the > queen. Should she fail after introduction or some time during the > year, production or even colony survival is at risk. > > Queens that are well raised definitely do last longer by far. When > we started requeening regularly with our own carefully raised stock, > we noticed a big drop in colonies that went drone layer over > winter -- as well as weak colonies in fall. This of course results > in larger production, and lower expense. > > The next question: Seeing as a number of writers have emphasized > genetics as if it cannot be assumed to be reasonably equal between > sources, what are the chances of buying a genetically poor queen > from a commercial queen breeder? Hello All, I have missed the last few days on the list and wished I was on the start of this topic. We do have many ways to get poor queens. The process of raising good queens needs very good attention to the stores, quality of pollen , age of bees to feed the larva , ventilation for the starter and healthy bees.Plus a few more that will come up later. Lets look at the queen cells on the bar as for starters. Some queens have a bunch of workers around her all the time and many more than some of the other queens. Now thats genetics.So the queen with all of this attention will get more care. Queen breeding good queens all the time is a big job.If you have good stock to start with and keep selecting for the best as breeders you will get into trouble at some point.What do we use to select good queens to head up our hives.On the genetic side we will run into problems with loosing some genes that are needed in conjunction with other genes that may control pheromone production. Now we have a change in behavior do to weaker pheromones or missing pheromones.Now comes the real inside curve.Because of different inviornments that the bees will work in, we have different phenotypes. Geneotype + enviornment= phenotype. So we can have queens doing well down south and poorly up north. This subject has had me reading and observing for the last 15 years at least.I have Bee Genetics and Breeding by Dr. Rinderer 1986 and Contemporary Queen Rearing by Dr. Dr Laidlaw 1985.I have Steve Tabers book on breeding super Bees. My opinion is , beekeepers need to give the breeders feedback, both positive and negative. We need more ongoing research on genetics. I think we know less than we need to make a good conclusion to this debate.We need breeders educated to what we know in 1996.If we want better queens it takes both a very good gene pool to start with and a list of traits that the beekeepers want and need.We have problems with supercedure and I think that has both factors working on that problem. Poorly raised queens will supercede and I would bet that genetics has a play in it also. Some bees are hard to introduce into hives.More of a problem when they are not laying , but I have seen laying queens get superceded in a week or two.( and a bunch of them) This subject did bring plenty of people off of the fence.I would like to see more breeders involved with this subject.We need no rock throwing , but it would be very good to hear there problems. We have had some feedback, but we need more.The Buckfast project in Europe has been amazing to me.700 people keeping the same kind of Bee with many different traits.I think that we in the US can learn something from that type of partnership.You don't do beekeeping because you have to, its different reasons for different people.But we all like or love are bees and we do get enjoyment out of them. I have to hand it to the big operators , it takes guts and brains to make a living out of bees. If your a good beekeeper, you have something to be very proud of. Mans knowlege is limited and we have been studying these bees for a long time.We will be asking questions right up to the end. Allen Dick , I want to thank you for the fuel that made this topic a learning expierence.We could get very technical and if you like that part read Dr. Rinderers book. I did and it took me 3 years. If it has no Protons and electrons and Newton is not involved , it comes slow to me. Best To Everyone Roy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:49:14 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James D Satterfield Subject: Incidence of Queenlessness I have one of my tbh colonies that appears to be hopelessly queenless. I am curious about the incidence with which this might occur. Suppose a beekeeper has 100 colonies of Italian bees, queens of mixed ages, etc. In the course of a season, how many of the colonies could be expected to become hopelessly queenless? I realize that there are many variables involved here: location, skill of the beekeeper, disease incidence, etc., so that the incidence should vary from place to place. Initial quality of the queen would probably be a large factor also. If you wish to offer an opinion or have some data on this issue, please email me directly, and I'll summarize the replies should it not be desirable to start a thread on this topic. Cordially yours, Jim --------------------------------------------------------------- | James D. Satterfield | E-Mail: jsatt@gsu.edu | | -------------------------------- | 258 Ridge Pine Drive Canton is about 40 mi/64 km | | Canton, GA 30114, USA north of Atlanta, Georgia USA | | | Telephone (770) 479-4784 | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:09:23 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Incidence of Queenlessness > I have one of my tbh colonies that appears to be hopelessly > queenless. I am curious about the incidence with which this might > occur. > If you wish to offer an opinion or have some data on this issue, > please email me directly, and I'll summarize the replies should it > not be desirable to start a thread on this topic. Actually there *is* a thread going on here about this, more or less -- the one on quality of Queens. This question is right in the middle of the issue, so I'm sending my reply to the list. Don't be afraid to jump in and get something going. This is a good question. I would venture that -- in my experience -- on average about 10% to 15% of the hives in a large outfit (in our area) will, left to themselves become queenless or develop a queen that is poor, but for some reason isn't superceded. Swarming will sometimes leave the parent colony hopelessly queenless. Over a year about 25% will encounter trouble from which they are unlikely to recover well without assistance. Part of this is due to the fact that queens that fail during late fall, winter or spring cannot be easily replaced by the hive due to lack of drones, mating weather, etc. > Initial quality of the > queen would probably be a large factor also. True. Initial quality often does not show up until late in the season, when the lack of stamina becomes apparent in drone laying, disappearance, or a generally weak colony. Of course this is hard to prove at that point, but if a whole batch of queens from one source goes bad at about the same time... Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:23:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Garey B. Spradley" Subject: herbs & mites I have heard of feverfew being planted near a hive entrance - the bees land on the plant and the varroa mites are repelled by the pyrethrum in the feverfew. Anyone have experience with herbs & bees? Also - what kind of foundation/frame would y'all recommend - plastic or wood? Judy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:29:01 BST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Malcolm Roe Subject: Re: Swarming and varroa In-Reply-To: <199607110403.AA241757834@hplb.hpl.hp.com>; from "Adrian Wenner" at Jul 7, 96 11:35 am Adrian M. Wenner wrote: [....] > HYPOTHESIS: I believe that we can expect that those colonies with a > high propensity to swarm will be the ones most likely to survive varroa > infestation [....] > Implications for beekeeping: > > 1) One can expect swarming rates to increase. > > 2) A new protocol for beekeepers to follow might be for rather frequent > colony division (artificial swarming) as part of their management program, > with later uniting of colonies once the mite reproduction cycle has been > broken. An interesting thought. It ties in nicely with a biotechnical varroa control technique discribed by Johan Calis on Bee-l last year which combines drone trapping and colony division. I could just quote the log reference (LOG9504) but, since I just looked it up to refresh my memory, I thought it was worth reposting. It's too complicated for a large scale beekeeper but for people like me it could be quite practical and I intend to try it next year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 12:30:33 +0100 From: johan calis [....] Briefly the method: We combine treatment in two colonies. During early spring (now) we put drone comb foundation in our colonies and remove this after capping (two drone combs on the edges of the brood nest are placed and replaced after capping). This can be combined with regular inspections. This in fact is the original drone-comb method which works well but not well enough. Generally it can be assumed that at least the growth of the mite population can be prevented with drone comb removal in a queen right colony with brood in all stages. Than comes the period of swarm prevention. We work in the colonies weekly at the same day. Week 1 Colony 1 & 2. We place a drone comb in the middle of the brood nest, because we want the queen to lay eggs in it during the following week. Week 2 Colony 1: we remove all the brood except for the drone combs with larvae and put this brood into colony 2. In this broodless colony 1, all mites are now on the bees and can be trapped with the drone combs that are being capped. This colony is mite'free' after one week, and is being used to produce drone combs with larvae for the other colony. Therefore we also put an empty drone comb next to the drone comb with larvae. Colony 2: We put the queen together with at least one drone comb with larvae and an empty drone comb in an otherwise broodless super on top and separated with a queen excluder of the other supers with all the brood of colony 1 & 2. Week 3. Colony 1 : In most cases the drone brood will be capped and can be removed (but the drone brood will not emerge for at least another week and can therefore remain in the colony when still a large portion of the drone brood cells are open). The colony is now clean. The newly produced worker brood of colony 2 is removed from there and put into colony 1 (brood younger than 7 days is still not being invaded by mites, so this brood is and (since it's being tranferred to the already mite free colony 1) remains mite free!). The drone comb with larvae is being replaced by an empty drone comb. Colony 2 : The top super, with the queen, is taken from the colony and placed on a bottom board. As mentioned the young worker brood is transferred to colony 1 and this artificial swarm is, containing at least 7/8 combs of bees, the queen and at least one drone comb with larvae, is being placed on a other stand to prevent the uncontrolable loss of flight bees. That leaves colony 2 queenless with brood aging at least 1 week. We remove all (urgency) queen cells if present. In this colony you can now breed new queens by e.g. offering larvae in queencups. Week 4. Colony 1: The drone comb with larvae is replaced with an empty one. Artificial swarm of colony 2: The drone comb can now be removed and similar to colony 1, week 3, this artificial swarm is now mite 'free'. Colony 2: The capped brood ages at least 2 weeks. A drone comb from colony 1 with larvae is placed into the middle of the colony. Week 5 Colony 1: The last drone comb with larvae is transferred to colony 2. Colony 2: Young queen emerged from queen cell. All the old brood is now emerged; all mites are now on the bees. The drone cells can now trap with a high efficacy the mites from the bees . week 6/7 Colony 2: The capped drone combs have to be removed and than also this colony with a young queen is mite 'free'. We started with 2 colonies and now we end with 3 colonies. Capped drone combs can be reused. To clean them cut the caps away with a breadknife, shake the drone pulp out (chickens love it!), clean with water with a handspray and let dry carefully. This is briefly the method as we use it, but many variants can be considered. Important rules of the thumb are: -You can only trap mites when they are on the bees. You have to trap in broodless colonies or colonies that have brood younger than 7 days. -You need 500 capped drone cells per kg bees (10.000 bees) to trap more than 95% of the mites in a broodless colony. -Brood younger than 7 days is not yet invaded by mites. -Never let drone combs emerge, than you will be breeding mites instead of trapping them. -Also natural swarms of unknown origin can be de-mited with a comb with drone larvae. Good luck! Johan.Calis@medew.ento.wau.nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Malcolm Roe mdr@hplb.hpl.hp.com Hewlett-Packard Laboratories Bristol Filton Road, Stoke Gifford, Bristol, BS12 6QZ, UK Tel: +44 117 922 9331 Fax: +44 117 922 8128 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:08:41 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Subject: Re: Ruined honey? > >OK. Time to add some other comments. By the way, all of the >suggestion I have seen sound good and clearly all of them will work. > >How about. > >Dumping the mess onto a screen - 1/4 inch mesh would be nice but use >what you have. Window screen will be just fine. Place it over a tub >and let it drain over a few days. Occassionaly mix it around a little >and mush it up and after a few days a great deal of honey will drain >out with little wax or bee parts in the honey. Less mushing and more >time will yield cleaner honey. > >What to do with the stuff left on top. The more you mush it the more >honey will be removed. Why not deal with it as you would with >cappings? You could also offer it to the bees when there is no flow >and they will remove the remaining honey and you can deal with the was >as you normally do. > >Good luck. > >Eric Abell >Gibbons, Alberta Canada >(403) 998 3143 >eabell@compusmart.ab.ca > > > Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:44:51 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kevin & Ann Christensen Subject: Re: herbs & mites ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6F48.6D6E6360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have heard of feverfew being planted near a hive entrance - the bees = land on the plant and the varroa mites are repelled by the pyrethrum in the feverfew. Anyone have experience with herbs & bees? ----------------- I touched on this topic yesterday on the list. I said that spearmint = was planted but I was wrong. I remember now that it was fennel and = pepermint which were planted in the bee yards and I was told that it = controled mites. I did not see any of this first hand and I assume the = person that told me this was refering to tracheal mites. 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Wallace" Subject: Re: herbs & mites At 09:23 7/11/96 -0400, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology >Poster: "Garey B. Spradley" >Subject: herbs & mites >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I have heard of feverfew being planted near a hive entrance - the bees land >on the plant and the varroa mites are repelled by the pyrethrum in the >feverfew. Anyone have experience with herbs & bees? > Can't answer on this topic, BUT... >Also - what kind of foundation/frame would y'all recommend - plastic or wood? > There are folks, on this list, that will whole-heartedly disagree with me. However, you couldn't pay me to have plastic frames or foundation. Why? Because I have seen plastic frames so warped, from the heat, that you couldn't get them in the hive. I, also, have seen plastic based foundation that, once the wax was eaten off, by the bees, they wouldn't build on it again or they would build comb crossways, between frames. The bees don't seem to like it, so I don't use it (of course, this is MHO). >Judy > Mike Wallace Sar Shalom Apiary McKinney, Texas USA "Out of the heart, the mouth speaks." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:29:19 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Miller Subject: On Drawing Comb I have always found that the absolute best time to get good comb drawn was in the middel of a strong nectar flow. While one can get some comb drawn by heavy feeding in the absence of a nectar flow, the result has almost never struck me as worth the effort (you get a lot of cross comb). Accordingly, I always get my new frames drawn out during a nectar flow. True, you will lose some potential crop, but you gan the drawn comb for future use. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:35:23 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: On Drawing Comb > I have always found that the absolute best time to get good comb > drawn was in the middel of a strong nectar flow. While one can get > some comb drawn by heavy feeding in the absence of a nectar flow, > the result has almost never struck me as worth the effort (you get a > lot of cross comb). Accordingly, I always get my new frames drawn > out during a nectar flow. True, you will lose some potential crop, > but you gan the drawn comb for future use. If you keep to 10% new combs or less, I am not sure you do lose potential crop. It depends on the flow. Sometimes -- even producing comb honey -- hives seemed to produce as much comb as extracted honey. Other times, definitely not. It all depends on the flow rate and the condition of the bees. Comb production is sure more efficient during flows! Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:30:46 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Organization: N/A Subject: ANP Comb - What is it? I was rereading Michael Moroneys posting of a few days ago which mentioned ANP comb. I had intended to ask about that then, but it got over looked. Briefly, what exactly is ANP comb? Tom Elliott Eagle River, Alaska ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 06:24:20 +0000 Reply-To: jdalexa@his.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: John Alexander Subject: Bee Carpentry Greetings I hived about 3 lbs of bees last week (4 july) with 3 frames of brood and introduced a queen on 5 july. The colony seems to be increasing nicely, judging from the activity I'm seeing. I've noticed that there are a number of bees doing the renovation thing on the entrance reducer (I've got it on small) trying to enlarge the opening. Makes quite a racket! Should I take this as a sign and give them the larger opening? I'm planning on going in and inspecting today if the weather holds so it would be a good time. Thanks much John Alexander Beltsville, MD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 07:16:58 -0500 Reply-To: MTS@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Re: SOLICITO INFORMACION Comments: To: Martinez Villalobos Juan Manuel-FMVZ Comments: cc: hshimanuki@asrr.arsusda.gov In-Reply-To: Bueno, Aqui esta una respuesta del Dr. H. Shimanuki. Estoy pasando la pregunta a la lista que se llama bee-l; para entregar una subscricion a la lista, se puede communicar con listserv@cnsibm.albany.edu y en la primera linea se pone: subscribe bee-l first name last name El Dr. Shimanuki dice: Yes there are three possibilities for the ELISA technique for detecting tracheal mites. Unfortunately I do not know of nay method for Nosema without checking the bibliography. From memory these are the three people or groups that have worked on the ELISA for detecting tracheal mites. Ragsdale and Furgala at the U of Minnesota published a paper that may have appeared in ABJ. Gordon Grant from Beaverlodge did develop a kit which was sent to some people for testing. On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Martinez Villalobos Juan Manuel-FMVZ wrote: > Dr. Tom Sanford. Florida, University. > Solicito a usted informacion sobre Acarapis woodi, Tecnica ELISA. > Asi como Nosema apis, Tecnica ELISA. > Tecnica Inmunohistoquimica, para ambos parasitos. > Saludos, Antonio Zozaya Rubio y Cristina Guerrero Molina. > Ojala que se encuentra ayuda de la lista bee-l. Tomas Sanford +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Malcolm (Tom) Sanford Extension Apiculturist University of Florida Mailing Address: Bldg 970, Hull Rd., Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Voice phone 352/392-1801, Ext. 143 FAX 352/392-0190 INTERNET:MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU ==================================================================== Publisher of APIS -- http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~entweb/apis/apis.htm Instructor of Principles of Entomology, ENY 3005-- http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/eny3005/eny3005syl.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 23:41:56 +1300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Subject: Fermenting Honey I have a question that some of you may be able to help with. A while ago we came across some honeydew that had fermented. Nothing unusual in that. However on testing for moisture with a refractometer, we recorded 16.2% water! All the literature I have read and a recent post to the list (I think) indicates below 17.1% will not ferment. Yes our refractometer is up to scratch and calibrated, we ruled that one out first, ditto temperature correction. We have three hypotheses. 1. The refractive index of the spectrum of sugars in our honeydew is higher than the average sugar spectrum for honey thus giving us a lower than actual reading. 2. The different sugars have a different osmotic effect (pressure) than normal honey sugars, hence yeasts are able to become active at higher sugar concentrations. 3. This particular honeydew is produced in an area that has a great deal of sooty mould on the trees. Under some conditions the "nectar" ferments on the trees. i.e. there a *gazillions* of yeast spores in the collection environment. Obviously a combination of the above factors is on the cards. Are these valid thoughts? Any other suggestions? Its coming up to extracting time down North so this may be a timely discussion for moisture levels etc. in the *civilised* hemisphere :). Cheers. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Bray, Airborne Honey Ltd., PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 p.bray@netaccess.co.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 07:39:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Re: Nuevamente desde Mercedes, Uruguay Comments: To: Fabian Perez In-Reply-To: <199607120633.XAA26021@adinet.com.uy> Otra vez estoy responiendo. Ya mande el APIS del diciembre 1995 en cual hay informacion sobre bee parasitic mite syndrome. Hice una busqueda de numeros pasados del APIS sobre disappearing disease. Encontre una descripcion en: 1984 Vol. 2, No. 6 1987 vol. 5, No. 2 1991 vol. 9, No. 6 1990 Vol 8, No. 7 Estoy mandando en mensajes separados estos numeros.. Tom Sanford On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Fabian Perez wrote: > COMENTARIO A MODO DE INFORMACION: >=20 > MORTANDAD DE COLMENAS DE CAUSA DESCONOCIDA >=20 > Esta situaci=F3n se est=E1 dando en nuestro pa=EDs desde hace unos a=F1os= en forma > expansiva y masiva, con las consecuencias econ=F3micas que =E9sto implica= ; a la > cual se ha denominado SINDROME DE DESAPARICION O DESPOBLAMIENTO MASIVO DE= LA > COLMENA ( seguida generalmente de muerte de la misma ). > El fen=F3meno se da principalmente en OTO=D1O-INVIERNO comprob=E1ndose un= a r=E1pida > despoblaci=F3n en el transcurso de 4 a 6 semanas que lleva a la muerte de= la > colmena; pudi=E9ndose hallar a la reina con un pu=F1ado de abejas e inclu= so, > s=F3lo la reina. > Las colmenas muertas se caracterizan por tener reservas de miel y polen, = lo > que indica que no es el hambre la causa. > Se ha visto que en las colmenas afectadas, la reina va desplazando el =E1= rea > de la cr=EDa de un panal a otro, abandonado paralelamente la cr=EDa operc= ulada e > incluso deja de poner huevos. > Esta cr=EDa se encuentra muerta, en estado de pupa, viendose abejas como > naciendo, con la cabeza fuera de la celda y con la glosa extendida. > Tambi=E9n se ven abejas vivas con malformaciones y peque=F1as que pueden = ser > consecuencia del mal criado de las cr=EDas y no de la causa propiamente d= icha > de la enfermedad. > No se ven abejas muertas dentro de la colmena ( salvo la cr=EDa ). > Este s=EDndrome se da tanto en apiarios con escaso manejo, como con manej= o > intensivo. > Apicultores que efect=FAan recambio de reina, renovaci=F3n de panales de = c=E1mara > de cr=EDa, prevenci=F3n de bloqueo, etc. > La mortandad llega al 40%, 50% en las colmenas y a veces ha llegado al 10= 0% > de las colmenas en un apiario. > Si bi=E9n el problema comenzo a notarse en zonas de plantaciones de eucal= iptus > con floraci=F3n oto=F1al, tambi=E9n se ha manifestado en la invernada en = zonas de > monte natural y praderas. >=20 > =20 > CON ESTE COMENTARIO LE DAMOS MAS INFORMACION ACERCA DE LA SITUACION EN > NUESTROS APIARIOS =BF QUE PUEDE SUGERIRNOS AL RESPECTO ? >=20 > SI LE ES MUY COMPLICADO EXPRESARSE EN ESPA=D1OL, RESPONDA EN INGLES. >=20 >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:20:21 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: The format and value of BEE-L logs No one has commented (pro or con) about splitting the BEE-L Logs into weekly vs monthly. The weekly logs certainly are of a more manageable size. I have split all the '96 logs into weekly logs and am considering doing so for the '95 logs also, but before I go to the trouble I thought I'd ask for a general consensus to see if the group feels this is a beneficial task. As I see it, the PROS for weekly logs is that they are smaller and more manageable (easier to download and easier to peruse - some of the monthly logs got so large that my editor couldn't even handle them). The CON however are that there are more logs to examine if one is searching for a particular piece of information. If someone is interested in the discussion for say June '96, there are four logs rather than one. It seems to me that the weak point for the logs is that there is no index of where to look to find a particular piece of information. LISTSERV does have search capabilities, but I don't know of anyone who has mastered the possibilities. So, my request is for comments regarding weekly vs monthly logging. Shall I bother with splitting the '95 logs into a weekly format? Once split, LISTSERV will offer and serve up the weekly logs. Prior to '95 the logs were small enough that I wouldn't bother splitting them. Is this a worthwhile exercise? How valuable are the logs? How often do subscribers review them? Is anyone using LISTSERV search capabilities? Perhaps subscribers should respond to me directly to save bandwidth on BEE-L and then I will summarize responses and report back late next week or the week thereafter. Thinking, always thinking, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:45:48 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Moroney Subject: Re: ANP Comb - What is it? In-Reply-To: <<31E5E306.208D@alaska.net> > I was rereading Michael Moroneys posting of a few days ago which > mentioned ANP comb. I had intended to ask about that then, but it got > over looked. Briefly, what exactly is ANP comb? It's a plastic brood comb (uses standard 9" wooden frames) that supposedly fights Varroa mites by preventing them from breeding. It is unusual in that the tops of each cell is standard worker-sized with thick walls. The bottom (at center rib) of each cell is rather larger, almost the size of drone cells, and the walls smoothly taper. Supposedly the brood develop faster in these cells because the bees tend to supply the young brood with more royal jelly than normally in early feeding, and this disallows varroa from getting enough chance to develop in the cells themselves. Also the plastic causes the varroa to slip and fall, and the cells are easier for the cleaners to clean. A local beekeeper who runs a small bee supply company swears by them as if they were God's gift to beekeepers. He is an old farmer type and not the type of person who I'd expect to praise them just to make a buck (although the ones he sells go for $$$$). I was suspicious of the fact that I never see them mentioned here but I decided to try 20 frames anyway. If they work they're cheaper than a package every spring. Dadant used to sell them but since have discontinued them (more reason to be suspicious) Anyway, I already mentioned the "missing queen" mystery when I tried to transfer a hive to ANP comb according to their directions. After that I decided to just put the frames in the hives above everything so they'd pick up the hive odor and hopefully be accepted when I try again later. (they had a definite "new plastic" smell when I got them) So far bees have been mostly avoiding them, with the queen even skipping over a frame in the brood nest entirely to go to the next (wax) frame. My guess is they'll work - if you can convince the bees to use them. Given a choice between them and wax they'll probably choose wax every time, so a queen excluder is probably mandatory. Send me your snail mail address if you want a set of directions that come with them. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:01:15 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Manuel Neves Subject: How to obtain bees in order to start my 1st hive? "I'm a beginer beekeeper looking for bees!" Dear Sirs, I'm begining in beekeeping and have lots of doubts, the first and greater is in respect of the ways I can obtain bees to start my first hive. I just have a little knowledge of how to construct and prepare the hive but would like also help in this part (the much I know the easy and in the righ way the things will go!). I'm from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and will be a pleasure receive a word of advice from yours. I don't know if I can buy the bees, or if I have to catch them. I don't know, also, what kind of literature is better in this first stage of work I am. Any help, advise or word of wisdom will be wellcome like a light in a dark cave! Thank you, in advance, for your attention. Waiting any answer from any new friend, __ __ _ __ /// /-/ /\/ /_/ |_ /-/ _________________________manuca@ibm.net M.a.n.u.e.l N.e.v.e.s ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:42:29 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Bee Carpentry > I've noticed that there are a number of bees doing the renovation > thing on the entrance reducer (I've got it on small) trying to > enlarge the opening. Makes quite a racket! > > Should I take this as a sign and give them the larger opening? I'm > planning on going in and inspecting today if the weather holds so it > would be a good time. Yes. I don't know the total area of entrance presently available to them now, but in most areas, several square inches - often in the shape of a long slit -- is quite reasonable. If they have only one tiny entrance, they could cook, since they need enough entrance(s) to bring air in and also air out. Some people use masking tape for reducers. This allows the bees to adjust to their needs. Hope this helps Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:50:47 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: How to obtain bees in order to start my 1st hive? > I'm begining in beekeeping and have lots of doubts, the > first and greater is in respect of the ways I can obtain bees > to start my> first hive. I just have a little knowledge of how to > construct and prepare the hive but would like also help in this > part The very best advice anyone can give a beginner is to find local beekeepers and make friends of them. You may have to try several before you find one that you' hit it off with'. Try any local beekeeping clubs or supply stores, and ask at you local government agriculture office. Select someone who is not trying to do everything differently from others, but is co-operative and knowledgeable. To try to do it on your own from what you read here or in books is to ask for a lot of unecessary expense, failure, and suffering. Your new friend will help you find what you need and interpret what the bees do. Good luck! Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:dicka@cuug.ab.ca & allend@internode.net Honey. Bees, & Art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:23:28 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mason Harris Organization: SMCOE Subject: Yellow Jackets Dear Bee folks, I know this does not have anything to do with honeybees but I am not sure where else to post this question. I have many ground nesting yellow jacket nests on my property in the ivy. I find them wresteling my honey bees and driving us crazy. I know I can go out at night and spray the nests but I was wondering if anyone knew a different way to take care of this problem. Please send replys directly to me and not to the list. Thanks. -- Mason Harris, MA (\ SMCOE Educational Audiologist -{ ||| 8- smharris@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us (/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:39:11 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Kevin D. Parsons" <102372.624@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Copy of: Mid-size Mammals After a week away I returned to find the grass in front of all 4 of my hives matted down and the ground scratched up quite a bit. I assume I have been having nocturnal visits by skunks, raccoons or possums. I have not seen the visitors. I understand that this can make the bees more agressive to work, but is it likely cause a serious reduction in the bee population? Has anyone had success in dealing this problem? I am thinking of placing the hives on 2 concrete blocks, which would get them about 16 inches off the ground in the hope that this will expose the underparts of the animals to more stings. I've heard of putting cayenne pepper or boards of nails in front of the hives. Do these really work? What about attaching a semi-circle of fence around the front of the hive? A full animal proof fence sounds like too much trouble. If I were sure it was not a skunk I'd try trapping the animal. I don't even want to think of catching a skunk. I'm sure glad we don't have bears around here. Any ideas would be appreciated, especially if they have worked for you. Thanks, Kevin D. Parsons Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:31:11 EDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jim Moore DTN276-9448 ogo1/e17 508-496-9448 Subject: Re: Copy of: Mid-size Mammals I also had an opposum problem. My hives are on my deck and on stands up off the deck floor. The two suggestions I have tried are: 1. Put chicken wire on the ground around the hives. Apparently the offending animal doesn't like the feel of the wire around their leg when the walk on it. (I tried this on my deck but I had additional visits. I may be because of the flatness of the deck surface.) 2. Put baited mouse traps out and snap their noses or paws. I wired the traps (six total around the 3 hives) to the chicken wire on the deck floor and baited with a dab of peanutbutter and a tiny slice of apple. The first night an opposum set off one of the traps. I heard the trap go and flipped on the light to see the opposum skulking away. At this point the apple and peanutbutter are long gone but I leave the traps set. The rain has set off a few so I reset them. I seems to be working for the moment. My cranky hive is very much less cranky, though still the hive with the most personality and I haven't seen any evidence of visits. Hope this helps. Jim Moore moore@aiag.enet.dec.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:40:28 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: midnitebee Subject: Re: Copy of: Mid-size Mammals At 02:39 PM 7/12/96 EDT, you wrote: >After a week away I returned to find the grass in front of all 4 of my hives >matted >down and the ground scratched up quite a bit. I assume I have been having >nocturnal visits by skunks, raccoons or possums. I have not seen the visitors. >I understand that this can make the bees more agressive to work, but is it >likely >cause a serious reduction in the bee population? > >Has anyone had success in dealing this problem? I am thinking of placing the >hives on 2 concrete blocks, which would get them about 16 inches off the ground >in the hope that this will expose the underparts of the animals to more stings. >I've heard of putting cayenne pepper or boards of nails in front of the hives. >Do >these really work? What about attaching a semi-circle of fence around the front >of >the hive? A full animal proof fence sounds like too much trouble. If I were >sure it >was not a skunk I'd try trapping the animal. I don't even want to think of >catching a skunk. >I'm sure glad we don't have bears around here. > >Any ideas would be appreciated, especially if they have worked for you. > >Thanks, > >Kevin D. Parsons >Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA GO the cheapest way possible. The board with nails,place near the entrance,worked great for me. By all means,use the concrete blocks!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:09:10 +22324924 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Adam Finkelstein Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets In-Reply-To: <31E635AF.1A2A@ed.co.sanmateo.ca.us> from "Mason Harris" at Jul 12, 96 11:23:28 am Yellow jacket controls may be found at: http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/entomology/beekeeping/general/ yellowjackets/ Adam -- _________________ Adam Finkelstein adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 20:38:57 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: chemical mis use of warnings In-Reply-To: <960710111836_573644377@emout08.mail.aol.com> On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, (Kevin & Shawna Roberts) wrote: > I will internationalize my statement: > > Do not put any fluvalinate in your hives that is not properly registered for > use in bee hives. > > Mites becoming resistant to fluvalinate is not just a U.S. concern; it is a > world-wide concern. Improper use will hasten the time when fluvalinate will > no longer control the mites. > Words of wisdom indeed. We should also be concerned with the other materials used in some formulations of fluvalinate. These may be soluable in beeswax and or honey. The also may be toxic to humans or bees. Lets stick to beekeeping and leave chemical engineering to others. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:20:37 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dave from Scranton Subject: Extra Colony in NEPA? In-Reply-To: Hi, I'm a hobbyist in NE Pennsylvania and was wondering if anyone had or knew anyone who had a colony they could part with, for money of course. I lost my bees last year but was unable to get bees this spring, due to my workload and lack of funds. Things have eased up a bit in both departments. As for starting late, I've got a friend who lost her bees this spring and has an almost full hive of honey to let them work on. Thanks. ****************************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley, Maitre d' | ***ALERT shameless plug ALERT*** The Internet Cafe | Scranton, Pennsylvania | ASK ME FOR A COPY OF WEBPHONE!!! (717) 344-1969 | (or try www.scranton.com/webphone) ddc1@lydian.scranton.com | ****************************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 23:28:56 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Allen Subject: Re: Queen Breeding. A most interesting series of letters on Queen Raising. I have enjoyed seeing all the conflicting ideas. Only human seems to survive without careful breeding. Where humans have tried to use selective breeding they have often caused other problems. Look at what they have done to dogs! Despite all, I wish one day to raise queens. How does one go about selection the right stock? It seems to me,since the queen is mated in flight , unless artificial insemination is employed it would be impossible to plan the breed lines. Much easier with large animals. Can someone give me some tips on this.please??? reference books etc. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 23:31:08 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Allen Subject: Re: quality of queens Mr. Breaux, thank you for your good letter on queen rearing. I have local library looking up Dr,Ruttner's publications. Do you know where the books were printed.? Pardon me , an unscientic beekeeper but who is BIBBA. (beekeeping industry _ _ Association )??? Do they have a publishing house of their own.?? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:33:28 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ann Dougherty Subject: Extra hole in supers In-Reply-To: <960712233107_154940867@emout14.mail.aol.com> I use deep supers for brood and honey. Some of them have a 5/8 inch hole iln the front to provide access to that box. On the honey supers it seems to be an advantage. While jon the brood boxes it's a disadvantage. What is the opinion of all you bee-listers out there? Do like an access hole on your supers or not? Ann Dougherty Kirkand, Washington USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:38:11 -0500 Reply-To: bbirkey@interaccess.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: Birkey Construction Subject: Re: Extra hole in supers Ann Dougherty wrote: > > I use deep supers for brood and honey. Some of them have a 5/8 inch hole > iln the front to provide access to that box. On the honey supers it seems > to be an advantage. While jon the brood boxes it's a disadvantage. What > is the opinion of all you bee-listers out there? > Do like an access hole on your supers or not? > > Ann Dougherty > Kirkand, Washington USA Hi Ann - It might be an advantage for a time to have entrances in your supers but I would think that you're taking quite a risk having straight access to the honey stores. It would sure make it easy for robber bees to clean up without having to deal with the gaurd bees at the bottom entrance. I personally have never known anyone to provide access in the supers, only in the brood chambers. We'll see what others have to say. -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA bbirkey@interaccess.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:29:02 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Justin Spaulding III Subject: Re: Copy of: Mid-size Mammals In-Reply-To: <960712183911_102372.624_HHW48-1@CompuServe.COM> I've tried both: Putting down nail boards and raising hives off the ground. I went with raising the hivve because I found the hivves easier to work from a stand and seemed to do the job. John Spaulding Associate Curator, Wildlife Center juggler@nesc.org New England Science Center ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:25:48 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "my name is Dean M. Breaux" Subject: Re: quality of queens In a message dated 96-07-12 23:36:29 EDT, you write: << Mr. Breaux, thank you for your good letter on queen rearing. I have local library looking up Dr,Ruttner's publications. Do you know where the books were printed.? Pardon me , an unscientic beekeeper but who is BIBBA. (beekeeping industry _ _ Association )??? Do they have a publishing house of their own.?? >> The books were printed in England by G Beard & Son Ltd., Brighton and in Bucharest by Apimondia Pub. House While the books are Hard to find they can be found. I waited almost one year to find one of Dr. Ruttners books and some of the type was smeared in the printing. The work that was done is quite interesting. WIC-WAS press here in the U.S.A. WIC-WAS is run by Larry Conners and someone on the Bee-L should have his address. I used to receive a catalog from him. I gave my old one away and I can't seem to find his address. In regards to The BIBBA it stands for the British Isles Bee Breeding Association. If you look in the back of the Bee CDulture you can find a reference to the IBRA and the BIBBA. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:46:14 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Julie Ann Brunner Subject: Ants in the beehive Hi I am new to this list, and I'm sure that this has been covered in the past, but . . . I have noticed that there are two different types of ants on my beehive since I added the first honey super. I sprinkled Diazanon around the hive in the past which controlled them, but now they seem to be at home inside the hive. Upon closer inspection, there is not a colony set up inside the hive, but I want to control the possibility of them making themselves at home. I have just been squashing them as I see them every day, and they don't seem to be increasing in number. Any ideas? Jules in Sacramento ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:27:51 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Queen Breeding. In-Reply-To: <960712232855_154940758@emout18.mail.aol.com> On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Tom Allen wrote: > artificial insemination is employed it would be impossible to plan the breed > lines. Much easier with large animals. Can someone give me some tips on > this.please??? > reference books etc. > An excellent place to start is "Contemporary Queen Rearing" by Dr. Harry Laidlaw. I think its available from Wicwas press. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:33:19 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr" Subject: Re: Copy of: Mid-size Mammals At 06:39 PM 7/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >After a week away I returned to find the grass in front of all 4 of my hives >matted >down and the ground scratched up quite a bit. I assume I have been having >nocturnal visits by skunks, raccoons or possums. I have not seen the visitors. >I understand that this can make the bees more agressive to work, but is it >likely >cause a serious reduction in the bee population? > >Has anyone had success in dealing this problem? I am thinking of placing the >hives on 2 concrete blocks, which would get them about 16 inches off the ground >in the hope that this will expose the underparts of the animals to more stings. >I've heard of putting cayenne pepper or boards of nails in front of the hives. >Do >these really work? What about attaching a semi-circle of fence around the front >of >the hive? A full animal proof fence sounds like too much trouble. If I were >sure it >was not a skunk I'd try trapping the animal. I don't even want to think of >catching a skunk. >I'm sure glad we don't have bears around here. > >Any ideas would be appreciated, especially if they have worked for you. > >Thanks, > >Kevin D. Parsons >Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA > Hi Kevin Go to your nearest carpet store and purchase some carpet "tack strip". This is a small board with tack points protruding about 1/4 inch to hold carpet in place on the floor. Nail this to the outer edge of the landing board. These are very sharp and when Mr. Skunk scratches on the board, he will get a nasty suprise and will learn to leave your bees alone Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:07:12 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr" Subject: Re: comb honey containers At 10:38 AM 7/20/96 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, > >I have been told that cardboard containers are available for retailing cut >comb honey. These apparently use a plastic bag inside the box. Can anyone >tell me where to find these? I would like to use packaging that is more >environmentally friendly than straight plastic. Although the cardboard boxes >use a plastic bag I expect that the total plastic use is less. > >Thanks, > >Steve Diana > Hi All I have been told that some beekeepers are selling Honey still in the frame. I don't even remember who told me about it but I understand it has been well received by consumers. I would like to know if there is packaging available for this. I would like to try marketing some next year. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:07:13 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr" Subject: Re: On Drawing Comb At 02:29 AM 7/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >I have always found that the absolute best time to get good comb drawn was in >the middel of a strong nectar flow. While one can get some comb drawn by >heavy feeding in the absence of a nectar flow, the result has almost never >struck me as worth the effort (you get a lot of cross comb). Accordingly, I >always get my new frames drawn out during a nectar flow. True, you will >lose some potential crop, but you gan the drawn comb for future use. > >W. G. Miller >Gaithersburg, MD > Hi Every year I get perfect new comb drawn during Late July and August during a darth. I wait until they start kicking out the drones, then they draw only worker comb. The key is to never let them run out of syrup until the comb is drawn, filled and capped. Don't let the queen at this comb unless you are getting it drawn out in a NUC brood chamber. I keep a queen excluder below the new comb until October so that this is used as winter stores but get used after the honey gathered during the fall flow. I also add Fumidil once they start storing the syrup/honey. This is a good way to have the fumidil in the hive during the winter at the biggining of the build up. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:07:14 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Franklin D. Humphrey Sr" Subject: Re: Baggie Feeder At 12:30 PM 7/10/96 +0000, you wrote: >Noticed for sale this year a new way to feed bees. >It's called baggie feeding. >BM sells them. They look like a cut down honey super. > >Does the baggie feeder have a bottom? > >Dave Verville >Plaistow, NH >mvdfv@mvcss.att.com > Hi Dave I started using the baggie feeder this year and I will never use anything else again. It is a small super about 3". An empty shallow super will work just as well. There are a few things I had to learn the hard way. Put a queen excluder or something under the bags if you intend to manipulate the hive while feeding. Use only heavey duty zip lock type freezer bags and make sure they are completely sealed before they are put on the hive. Leave as little air as is possiable when sealing. Dribble a little of the syrup on the bees so they will come up and find it. After you get the hang of it, the baggie feeder is a great way to feed. Frank Humphrey beekeeper@worldmet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:24:01 PDT Reply-To: TTOWNSE@ibm.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Subject: Re: Extra hole in supers Do like an access hole on your supers or not? Ann Dougherty Kirkand, Washington USA Ann; Yes, we like 1" access holes in the supers, just below the hand hold, i in brood and honey supers. They are IMHO very necessary, especially in two queen colonies. TPLR HONEY FARMS Tim Townsend RR 1 Stony Plain Alberta TTOWNSE@IBM.NET -- End --