From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:03 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27225 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11033 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171651.MAA11033@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:51:57 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9901C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 174170 Lines: 3735 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:11:21 -0600 Reply-To: lawrence@the-link.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "L. W. Thompson" Subject: beekeeping articles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received my March, 1999, issue of "Mother Earth News" today. On pages 52-56 is an article, "Beekeeping Basics" whcih provides, among other things, drawings and plans for building one's own beehive and the rudiments of beekeeping with a few references. A second article follows on ppgs. 58 and 60 entitled, "Healing with honey". It is a good, general article. Apitherapy is not mentioned. Both are good reads for those contemplating entering beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:15:45 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Butcher Organization: Dundee University Subject: Re: Drones and queen breeding In-Reply-To: Drones do have > fathers, and can have many half brothers, anyway I am getting one of those > genetic headaches. Drones develop from unfertilized eggs so their father is > their grandfather but sometimes workers can also develop from unfertilized > queens and once in a great while one of these workers can lay eggs. Well, it is true that haploid males (Drones) develop from unfertilised eggs. However, they are not all their grandfather, but a maximum of half since homozygous eggs develop as diploid males, not females, which are usually killed in the cells as larvae and eaten. Simplistically, approx half will have one the the grandmother genotypes, but it also depends upon the degree of outbreeding in the intermittant generation). The second point is also true in that thelytoky (production of dipoloid female progeny from unfertilised eggs) can occurr occasionally in sexual honey bees by fusion of pole cells. Rob Robert Butcher, Evolutionary and Ecological Entomology Unit, Department of Biological Sciences, Dundee University, Dundee, DD1 4HN, Tayside, Scotland, UK. Work Phone:- 01382-344291 (Office), 01382-344756 (Lab). Fax:- 01382-344864 e-mail:- r.d.j.butcher@dundee.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:57:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. G. Miller" Subject: Re: hello from would be beekeeper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit David Margulies asked about putting a glass walled beehive (more commonly called an observation hive in his daughter's bedroom). I'll make my reply to the list because I've had many beginners ask me about starting beekeeping with an observation hive. Observation hives are certainly fascinating to watch, and I am sure both Dave and his daughter would have a great time with this one. However, observation hives tend to always be on the verge of either getting too high a population or dying out. You'll need a "ballast" regular hive that can be used to absorb excess bees and supply fresh bees/stores when needed. You will also have to consider how you plan to work on the observation hive. You don't want a lot of bees flying around your daughter's room. Also, the hive would have to be "kidproof". As Dave alluded to in his post, observation hives are not large enough to have good thermal control, and the queen frankly prefers to work in the dark. For these reasons, observation hives are normally kept covered when nobody is looking at them. The bottom line is that observation hives are not for beginners because of all the extra work and pitfalls. Beginners should start with full size colonies outdoors. However, if you are an intermediate or better beekeeper and you have a spot for one, a permanent observation hive is well worth the effort. And if you sell honey a craft fairs and such, always bring a portable observation hive. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:20:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: IBRA Subject: Bee videos? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Can anyone help Prof Bingham? Please relpy directly to him and not the Bee-L list. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Reply-to: pbingham@ccmail.sunysb.edu Organization: Dept. Biochemistry& Cell Biology, SUNY Dear Sir/Madam: I am an American academic who is teaching an advanced course in animal social behavior. I am very interested in using the highly developed picture of bee behaviors in this context. I am particularly interested in using the "waggle dance" and in looking at extended, purposeful behaviors such as honey production and brood construction. Could you suggest a possible source to purchase or borrow a high quality VHS video that would be useful here? Thank you so much for your help, Prof. Paul M. Bingham Biochemistry 450 Life Sciences State University of New York Stony Brook, NY 11794 ph (516)632-8548 fx (516)632-8575 email pbingham@ccmail.sunysb.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:16:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Davis Subject: Re: Purchasing Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott, There is or was a supposed source of what they call a "hybrid german black". Have never ordered from these guys so buyer beware. Southeastern Bee Co. PO Box 180 Parrottsville, TN 37843 This info is from a 1996 catalog. Price of a queen then was $6.75. Gives a phone number for orders of 800-673-9346. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:18:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard E Leber Subject: On-Line News Check the site: http://cnn.com/US/9901/14/killer.bees/ for an article on Africanized bees in L.A. and a link to another press article on the roll-over of a beekeeper's truck near Milwaukee. Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping & Honey Production Since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home Alabama' ricks.toy@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:21:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Observation Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit W. G. Miller wrote: And if you sell honey a craft fairs and such, always bring a portable observation hive. ****************** I agree, but, alas, our group was advised not to show an observation hive because yellowjackets often forage among the people at the fair. Aggressive yellowjackets give the bees a bad name. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:20:30 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Observation Hive In-Reply-To: <16575664022399@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I agree, but, alas, our group was advised not to show an > observation hive because yellowjackets often forage among the people at > the fair. Aggressive yellowjackets give the bees a bad name. I would have imagined that the idea would be to keep the entrance screened and just show the bees off to passersby, especially at an outdoor market. Otherwise one would have to wait until dark to get the bees back. Or put a bee escape (backwards) on the entrance an hour before packing up to leave. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:52:23 -0500 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Drones and queen breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 14 Jan 99, at 10:18, Lloyd Spear wrote: > roughly 10,000 drones for every 100 virgins, or 100 drones per virgin. In > the US, where drone foundation is not readily available, I have seen > breeders cut away all but two inches (or so) of drawn foundation, and let > the bees rebuild cells; A gentle correction. Drone foundation is readily available, and has been for some time, from us in Noth America. In spite of extensive advertising and writing to a good number of Queen breeders to advise them of stock, only 3 have bought drone foundation from us. Some of the biggest names in queens don't have the manners to acknowledge the letters. Says a lot for the majority of breeders. I think the numbers of drones are very high and might cause some consternation with newbie queen rearers. If you can get those numbers, good, but difficult to achieve under normal conditions. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Queen Rearing Equipment. **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:27:31 -0800 Reply-To: gstyer@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Styer Subject: Re: Drones and queen breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Wenner And, no, I would not want the virgin > queens from my colonies mating with drones that have cruised forth from > many managed bee colonies some distance remote from this area. Those > drones would have come from colonies kept alive with the use of Apistan > strips (a weak strain of bees, so to speak). I don't see how you draw the inferred conclusion that a drone from a treated colony is genetically weakened. Is it not possible that a colony can have some genetic resistance to Varroa but just happened to be managed by a beekeeper and therefore treated? Just because I receive antibiotics after I have a surgery does not mean that my offspring will be genetically weakened (challenged). My genetic material remains the same. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:55:18 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Drones and queen breeding In-Reply-To: <916361017.2128094.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <916361017.2128094.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Adrian Wenner writes > For instance, in our immediate metropolitan area (Santa Barbara, CA) we >have had an impressive resurgence of feral colonies, despite the fact that >we know of no beekeepers within this area. Somehow, these feral colonies >have survived the varroa mite onslaught --- as witnessed today, when I >found that a new swarm had moved into a cavity in the base of an olive tree >(downtown Santa Barbara, corner of Olive and Haley Streets) within the past >week, a cavity repeatedly occupied these past few years. > > To repeat: We apparently have no beekeepers in this rather vast area >(from the ocean to the top of the mountain range), beekeepers that keep >their colonies alive with Apistan strips. Yet, we now have a great many >really viable feral colonies in this area, colonies (collectively) that >cast out swarms regularly. I think I would need more substantial evidence of resistance than this before comitting to the strategy of securing matings only with similar feral colonies. (As no doubt does Adrian, with his scientific background) Reason as follows. Swarms issuing forth during the peak breeding season tend to be relatively clear of mites, as the vast majority are in the brood at this time. Thus a fresh, relatively clean swarm can run for anything up to four years before it collapses. During its lifespan it may issue quite a number of further swarms and castes itself, each again leaving much of the mite load behind at the by now parent colony. This parent colony then collapses, and much (except those moved on by absconding bees) of the mite load dies with it. This will mean that strains disposed towards swarming will be very strongly selected towards, as the non-swarming colonies collapse having issued relatively few progeny, to be replaced by the numerous swarms from those colonies of a swarmy nature. It will only take a very few seasons for this strain to become dominant over the less vigourously swarming types generally produced from managed colonies. It does not mean that the bees are necessarily any more resistant to varroa, just that they go through this regular cleansing and renewal process in the form of swarming. The parent colonies collapse as normal, but are soon replace by further swarms occupying the same space. Although the reasons for the olive tree site falling vacant, and then regularly being re-filled, are not given in your posting, one possible reason is this process, which will also produce the noted rebound in swarm numbers some time after 'first wave'. Such a scenario may, of course be part of a way forward in the absence of treatments (such as in organic regimes), taking advantage of the swarming behaviour rather than trying to suppress it, especially if true resistance fails to materialise. On the other hand, deliberately seeking out swarmy bees will undo many years of diligant queen breeding for easily managed colonies. As high swarming becomes normal management will of necessity become more intensive. Several other posters have touched on this feral survivor situation before, and it may well be there that the first resistant colony is found, but it will really need to be a colony which exists untreated continuously in one location for several years. It must be properly demonstrable that this is not the result of unobserved re-occupations of the same spot. Then we may have some genetic material there worth researching into. Kind regards Murray -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:46:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: US FDA HONEY ALERT! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you can find this story in any other news paper, or bee publication, then I apologize for breaking it here. 1.15 Yesterday the US Food & Drug Agency (FDA) issued an IMPORT ALERT on Imported HONEY. REASON FOR ALERT : During the past several years there have been detentions of imported honey due to adulteration with corn or cane sugars.Details on labs, costs, and contacts included. IMPORT ALERTS require no special action they just are a way of alerting FDA inspectors of a possible problem or concern, kind of a "bee on the lookout" for adulterated honey. Chow, the OLd Drone http://beent.com/benews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:51:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Observation Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Sterrett had written: > > I agree, but, alas, our group was advised not to show an > > observation hive because yellowjackets often forage among the people at > > the fair. Aggressive yellowjackets give the bees a bad name. Allen Dick wrote: > I would have imagined that the idea would be to keep the entrance screened > and just show the bees off to passersby, especially at an outdoor market. > ( Come on, Allen, give me a break for not stating that the observation hive would stay closed up!) The market I referred to is in a carriage shed outside an art museum. People who have paid to get into the museum can browse the fair which sells crafts and some food. The food brings in yellowjackets in autumn. And these are _Vespula germanica_, the German yellowjacket, an introduced, aggressive pest that has become, in the mid-Atlantic (U.S.) states, the most common yellowjacket visitor where food is exposed. (Yes, I know that yellowjackets are beneficial in the great scheme of things.) As I recall, someone was stung at the museum market several years ago. And, although beekeepers would presume that a yellowjacket was responsible, the closed-up observation hive was nearby. The museum suggested that the observation hive not appear again. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:40:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Drones and queen breeding In-Reply-To: <199901150106.RAA19314@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:11 PM 1/14/99 -0700, you wrote: >> Beekeeping is one of the few animal industries where there is not a >> great emphasis on the male line. Bulls, rams and stallions always >Maybe the reason drones don't sell for thousands of dollars is that once >they are bred, that's it :) Hi Allen & Dr. Wenner, A counter point I will make is that in reality there are queen breeders who think nothing of spending hundreds if not thousands of dollar to purchase breeder queens tested by someone they trust. I had two old time friends that did this work for themselves and some of the most well known and respected queen breeders in California who then would sell the daughters as their special or own stock. This is the way is was but in all of this bee breeders "secrets" I am disclosing for the first time I can not recall anyone buying "tested" breeders for drone mothers. I can't say it was not done as even today I don't know it all and I did know several good old time queen breeders that paid good attention to their male lines but they were a small minority. Anytime anything is posted the brings a response from Dr. Adrian Wenner, its worth the read, both posts of course. Adrian reminds me mostly of Dr. John Eckert who I was fortunate to have spent many late night hours talking bees in his later years. Both men have the same eye for bees that I like to think I have. I have looked into tens of thousands bee hives and no two looked the same even those who had the same mothers. Its what interested me most about keeping bees when I should have been watching the nickles & dimes I was looking for the differences in my bees which only pays with an occasional new observation of something that was always there but overlooked by most others..and that puts little bread on the table. Anyway Dr. Wenner, like Dr. Eckert and a few others from the past are able to see these things, the same things that we beekeepers see and explain them so that even I can almost understand them. Are they always right, NO, but all have one thing in common, an open mind. Bee and drone congestion areas have always been interesting to me and I really got excited to read of Adrian's experiences today in old downtown Santa Barbara, and increased feral populations. I have heard from other areas of the country that are experiencing similar occurrences. Some of this is no doubt due to the excellent moisture and bee pasture conditions of 1989. Some of this will carry over into a 2nd year in the California Coastal areas that have Blue Gum trees and southwestern desert areas that have Mesquite because these plants express flush conditions the years following extra normal moisture. Moving away from pasture there are areas favored by drones for mating and there are also areas favored by bees for swarming or swarm resting. I have written of my experience in that old cherry orchard in San Jose that I kept 100 hives during the prune and cherry bloom until I was surrounded on three sides by homes and schools. I would bust these hives up each spring and re queen them and still catch a hundred swarms and I discovered later on I was not the only one catching swarms out of this orchard. But not from my own bees I discovered early on when going through them looking for cells to identify the hives that had or were going to swarm and could find few. That old orchard was like a swarm magnet and I am sure swarms from miles away made their way to it each year and have often wondered about today when it has been replaced by homes. My bet is it a jack pot for the local pest control and swarm removal business. Chow, Andy- http://beenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:41:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "D. Murrell" Subject: hand fertilization of unferlized eggs MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Michael Haberl wrote: >However, unfertilised eggs can be fertilised some time later (up >to about 4 h). One can even do it by hand for breeding purposes! >There were several good articles into this subject >in the 'Deutsches Bienen Journal' (3/95, 3/96, 4/96, 8/96). Has anyone on the list had experience with this procedure? It appears that some of the advantages of instrumental insemination in a breeding program could be achieved or even accelerated by hand fertilizing. Mr. Haberl, could you share the details of this procedure with the list for those of use not having access to the German journals. Thank you. Dennis Murrell Hiveworks Casper, Wyoming ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:24:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Varroa resistant Texas bees? Dear Beekeeping Friends, Andy Nachbaur posted an article quoting Rodney Holloway suggesting that there might be some Varroa resistant bees in Texas and asking for comments or discussion. I will venture an opinion. I can't really answer for Rodney and he may want to disagree with me, but my best guess is that his statements were more along the lines of wishful thinking and hoping that bees resistant to Varroa would appear through the process of natural selection. I don't believe there is enough evidence yet to strongly support the hypothesis that we have "arrived" at the point where those genetic lines that are resistant to Varroa have appeared in Central Texas. Rodney watches for feral swarms and feral colonies and tries to get feral queens in the hopes that he will at some point find some with genetic resistance, and then he monitors them for mites and mite damage. I've never heard him say that he thinks he's identified any resistant bees. How many hives of bees survived the Isle of Wight disease in the United Kingdom after the beekeeping industry was almost totally destroyed there? It may be possible that if we let natural selection take its course and destroy all susceptible European Honey Bees that are not resistant to Varroa by not treating for it at all, that there might be a few survivors (and again there might not). That's about an impossible task considering the economic impact. Rodney is hoping as I and others are that some verifiably resistant genetic material will turn up in feral bee populations that can then be used in breeding programs to "save the beekeeping industry" in the United States. Feral colonies surviving the mites could also partially be the result of the colonies being so few and far between that the mite is less easily spread to them--they're just isolated. Rodney has all my "feral" queens from swarms or colonies I've removed. I wish him luck. It's nice to not have to depend on the survival of the bees in order to make a living. Then you can afford to experiment and lose them. I hope somebody finds some resistant material pretty soon (maybe the "Russian queens") but I don't think Rodney has found any yet. It makes sense that natural selection ought to ultimately get the job done, assuming that there is some genetic resistance out there somewhere to Varroa in EHB. Now that I've finished this post, I suspect that I probably haven't said any thing new that hasn't been said before, except maybe that "the last time I talked to Rodney about it, (resistance) he didn't say he'd found any resistant bees yet." He hopes he will. Layne Westover College Station, Texas 30.4 deg N, 96.2 deg W, altitude 308', mean ppt 38.6", max 106 F, min 2 F ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:49:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: Feeding bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett asks about feeding bees for the winter and how to arrange the hive so as to avoid 'isolation starvation'. We nearly all keep our bees in an artificial way and we get what we select for through artificial rather than natural selection although Darwinian principles will still apply. If, through your management practices, including winter feeding, you select for bees that survive with your your system you will end up ONLY ( or nearly only, you cannot eliminate recessive genes) with bees that need your system. I am assuming that you are relying on your local bees rather than importing queens from afar as often practiced in America. If you do the latter you are relying on the selection priorities of the breeder. Overwintering in a cold climate on minimum stores may not be high on his list of priorities - he wants his customers to keep coming back. In our maritime temperate climate on the eastern side of the Atlantic the bees often do not cease brood rearing in winter. They will not leave brood to get cold in order to move onto new stores. I have very occasionally found a colony dead from starvation with ample stores in the hive, even on the same comb as the dead bees but separated by only a few inches. One trick I have learned is to over winter my bees the warm way with the frames parallel with the front of the hive. The reason for this is that bees tend to store their honey at the rear of the hive, away from the entrance. Through the winter, besides moving up, thay also move back through their stores. The cold way they may cut themselves off from half of their stores. You may have gathered that I do not routinely feed my bees for the winter although I will do so if I feel that particular hives need mollycoddling or if there is some particularly cheap sugar. It is very seldom that I lose a hive through starvation. I try to take my main honey crop late after the bees have arranged their winter stores in the single brood box in the way that THEY want. What I take is what the bees leave as surplus to their requirements. The philosophy is to work with the bees rather than to pillage them. This system works for me and my bees but then I don't have to live off my bees. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:56:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Wolfgang Poehlmann Subject: requeening of broodless colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Hello List I have a problem with one of my colonies. In October, after having received winter feeding I checked all my colonies and found at one a queencell. This is propably to late in the year to get a queen well mated and also the brood was running out in the next 3 or 4 weeks. I normaly mark all my queens, but this one was the only one in this year were I never saw the queen. I thougt this is no problem, if I saw eggs. But now we are in winter and the bees have no brood until february. I dont know if they have the old queen or have a new but likely not mated queen. If the old queen is no more in the colony I would like to requeen. One method would be to wait until they start breeding in February and if I see that they are drone breeding, I can exchange the hive with a weak, but queenright hive and let then fly in. But maybee it is not the best solution to wait until they are dronebreeding. My question to the list is: Is there any method to check if a broodless hive has a queen, and further if this queen is mated? Kind regards Wolfgang Hobby beekeeper in south Germany homepage in german and english: http://home.t-online.de/home/wolfgang.poehlmann/imkerei.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:48:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick The Beeman Subject: Questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am going to try to make a calendar of bee related things for the state fair comming up. Can anyone give me some answers to these questions that they are for sure TRUE (I dont want any false info please)! Can anyone tell mee when: The modern Hive was made, Dadant & sons was founded, when AI Root was founded, Vorra was first noticed, And any other neat facts about bees! Please give me a date and year for the advent ( I will have your Name and Email in the back for helping) Thank you in advance! Nick B. Please send it to my home one BeemanNick@Aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:51:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Murray McGregor comments Comments: cc: paulc@silcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Murray McGregor provide some very insightful comments in his response of 15 January to my posting about feral colonies and natural selection for resistance to varroa mite infestation. I have no quarrel with his comments but wish to provide just a little more input in response to his excellent comments: ********** Murray wrote: >I think I would need more substantial evidence of resistance than this >before comitting to the strategy of securing matings only with similar >feral colonies. (As no doubt does Adrian, with his scientific >background) Murray is correct on that point. What I suggested was only a starting point for further consideration about the matter. Murray also wrote: >During its lifespan it may issue quite a number of further swarms and >castes itself, each again leaving much of the mite load behind at the by >now parent colony. This parent colony then collapses, and much (except >those moved on by absconding bees) of the mite load dies with it. > >This will mean that strains disposed towards swarming will be very >strongly selected towards, as the non-swarming colonies collapse having >issued relatively few progeny, to be replaced by the numerous swarms >from those colonies of a swarmy nature. > >It will only take a very few seasons for this strain to become dominant >over the less vigourously swarming types generally produced from managed >colonies. ************* I believe that Murray is correct on that point, a point made by me on this list on 31 October 1997, in response to a posting made by Paul Cronshaw --- a quite special beekeeper in Santa Barbara. That earlier posted comment follows: ********** Paul Cronshaw wrote: >I am still getting swarm calls at this time of year in Santa Barbara. The >sizes of swarms range from fist size to soccer ball size. All have queens. > >I am wondering if these swarms are the result of mites. The bees are >breaking the mite breeding cycle by swarming at this late in the season. I >understand this is a trait of the AHB. >Perhaps we are seeing survival of the fittest occurring in the local bee >population? I think Paul is correct and have already suggested that possibility elsewhere (the latest with Dr. Yaacov Lensky from Israel, when he interacted with Robbin Thorp and me last week out on Santa Cruz Island). That is, we can expect that natural selection will first be more evident at the colony level (as in frequent swarming) than at the individual behavior level (as in a few of the workers biting mites). Some of the colonies that swarm frequently will persist long enough to send out other swarms, etc. By contrast, workers in a colony are a motley crew --- collectively derived from a dozen or more drones. If, for example, an insufficient number of workers fight mites, colony death will occur --- along with the mite fighting workers, who don't reproduce anyway. ******* ********* Further clarification (hopefully): Virgin queens mate with drones from a good many different hives. Simple rules of biology thus prevail. If the vast majority of those nearby hives have been kept alive with Apistan strips, those queens on mating flights will likely acquire sperm mostly from drones that carry virtually no resistance to varroa mites. By contrast, in an area without managed colonies (and where no one uses Apistan strips), queens will mate almost entirely with drones from colonies that somehow have resisted the depredation of varroa mites. In other words, we must think in terms of a population of colonies, not in terms of individual colony tolerance of mites. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 **************************************************************************** ********** * * "The flaws of a theory never lead to is rejection....Scientists tolerate * theories that can easily be demonstrated to be inadequate." * * Carl Lindegren, 1966 **************************************************************************** ********** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:00:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JohnBee Subject: (Anti-)Varroa floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Ayres asked for experience with mesh floors as a means of combatting varroa. These are widely used in the UK, not as a method of trapping live mites which drop of bees (negligable in terms of the total mite population of a hive, I would think), but as a means of monitoring the level of infestation. Studies by Dr Stephen Martin of the National Bee Unit, Central Science Laboratory, York, UK, (s.martin@csl.gov.uk) have shown a relationship between natural mortality and total mite population. By counting the dead mites dropping through the screen of the varroa floor, and multiplying by a factor depending on the time of year it is possible to get a good estimate of the total mite population of the hive. From this it is possible to say if immediate treatment is necessary or if it is safe to postpone treatment eg until after removing the honey crop. This work was carried out under UK conditions, and I dont know if the same factors would apply in different climates. I will try to get a reference to published data, if anyone is interested. With regard to the general effect of hives with open mesh floors, Helmut Horn published observations on overwintering hives of this type compared with conventional floors. An English translation by AE McArthur was published in BEE CRAFT [72(7):201-210, 1990], as "Observations on the Overwintering of Honeybee Colonies in Hives with Open and Solid Floorboards". Alistair Reid published a series of studies alone similar lines (Bee Craft Feb 1991, Jan 1993, Feb 1994, Apr 1995 and Feb 1996). The key points seem to me to be: use an insulated roof with no ventilation holes. warm air from the cluster rises, moves to the outside of the hive, and drops down through the floor taking excess moisture with it. Colonies are slower to start in the spring, but quickly catch up and do well. Winter losses are less than the solid floored hives, presumably due to the drier conditions. (Bee Craft editor is Claire Waring claire@backlane.demon.co.uk ). One problem with varroa floors is the increase in wax moth, as the bees are unable to keep the floor clean. A combination of the two concepts, putting a tray under the mesh only when monitoring varroa gives the best of both worlds. I've no idea about ants! I am Editor of Gwenynwyr Cymru / The Welsh Beekeeper, and this is my first contribution to bee-l. Hope it's useful and not too long. John Burgess JohnBee@freenet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:02:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Needed: Engineer -Heating/Cooling Control Systems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: We have an interesting ongoing research project and are looking for a collaborator/reviewer. Last summer, we equipped a nucleus hive with 96 temperature probes (about one per every inch of space inside the hive). All 96 probes are read by a computer every 5 minutes. We have continuous data for this hive from July through early December. 3 undergraduate students and their science instructor, Bob Madsen, from Dull Knife College in Lame Deer Montana (about 500 miles from Missoula) have been collecting the data (the hive is located in Missoua) from the Internet and plotting the temperature profiles as 3-D movies for days, weeks, months, and the entire season. The results are fascinating and in many ways not what one would expect. In some ways, the bees tolerate more variation than expected. But at some critical thresholds, they kick in with a control system that exceeds the best available technology known to us. Also, air flow inside the hive (as evidenced by temperatures) does not fit the classical models for proposed for beehives. It seems to me that at least one beekeeper on this list might be a specialist in designing heating and cooling control systems for buildings. We would be interested in obtaining feedback and comments from such a person. We can provide the temperature data as text files, and the 3-D movies as animated gif files. This data would also be a great exercise in modeling of thermoregulation inside a hive. Any mathematician's or computer scientists out there who need a thesis project? We intend to publish this work. At this time, we can make the information available to people who would be willing to collaborate with us, or who would use the information in a constructive way (such as a thesis project). We are not ready at this time to release this information to everyone on the List - we have some hard work to do before we come to final conclusions about the data. Cheers Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:27:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Do you have killer bees in your country? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just gots to ask, how many people are killed by bees and/or honey bees each year in your country? I just read a news clip from France that reports that.... 1.16 Wolfs under attack in Switzerland,.. "In Switzerland 20 to 30 people a year die from bee stings every year," Narcisse Seppey said. "Yet no one suggests that bees be wiped out." Anyone from Switzerland or Europe want to add to this with official or unofficial information. Such as in the US we have a history of 12-16 deaths from "bees", unofficially we had no deaths from Afro bees in 1998 and fewer then the historical average deaths from "bees". Its hard to understand how a country like Switzerland with few honeybees can lose so many people from bee stings? Maybe they have "killer" bumble bees? Chow, Chao, the OLd Drone For the complete French Press story http://beenet.com/bnews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 02:07:41 -0600 Reply-To: Luis Rommel Beutelspacher Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Luis Rommel Beutelspacher Subject: Drones and mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I appreciate very much all of your comments about my question on drone colonies, it has been of much help. Reading the messages of this list every morning is like being in an intense beekeeping course. I have learned a great deal. I have another question: Do any of you know if the queen has a preference of direction when flying for mating? Does she fly on one direction all the time? Or is every flight just random in direction, distance and duration? I will appreciate any comments. Your Mexican beekeeping friend, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Luis Rommel Beutelspacher (\ Maya Honey S.A. de C.V. -{|||8- Ticul, Yucatan, Mixico. (/ Tel/Fax (997) 20715 miel@finred.com.mx ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:32:00 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Easy way to get drone cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi All Interesting reading Lloyds post about how to get drones/cells etc. In my area foundation is quite expensive and the cell sizes are all wrong, so I don't use full sheets per frame - in fact I use about a 1cm strip at the top of each brood frame, sealed in with candle wax. Nevertheless I have noticed that the bees will always make two beautiful drone combs on the outer edges of the nest, one on each side - which they use for honey storage, pollen storage and drone production when needed. If one places such a frame in the centre of the brood nest the bees will either move the brood nest if there is not much pollen coming in, or they will produce lots of drones. Given that our drones are drifters a strong drone producing hive will never have many drones in it - all the weaker hives nearby will though!! (even although they have little drone brood they will have roughly similar numbers of drones to the stronger hive that is producing the drones) As far as the need for foundation goes it is very imporatant to remember that genetically bees are programmed to produce cells of a very specific size - hence if you have africans on european carnolian size foundation you will get bad wax drawing, and the bees would in fact draw a comb faster if it did not have foundation! Likewise for me with capensis on scutellata foundation it is quicker to let the bees do their own thing. (Then they don't have to chew up my expensive foundation sheets before drawing them each time) Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:07:59 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Urban areas as bee reserves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi All The drone brood etc thread is interesting me and I thought I would share my views on urban areas as a source of less tinkered with genetic diversity. In africa we are fortunate to have very high feral loadings of bees - higher than would ever have been found for any race of european bee. Areas of central africa are reported to have feral densities of over 500 colonies per square kilometer!! A lot further south in my town, withing a distance of 100meters of this computer I know of well over 30 colonies, one of which is directly outside a window in the roof next door to me. Within a capensis bee colony one can normally count over 20 different looking bees - namely balck, black with an orange stripe at the Nasanov gland, grey with black stripes and so on through to orange with no stripes (rare) and yellow like italians (common). A good hive has more than that. All the hives contain at this time of year at least 500 drones, unless they are nucs, in which case they have maybe 100 or less. At midday there are more drones than bees flying as the heat shuts down most flowers for a few hours. I know where one Drone congregation area is in my area, and suspect I have located another - both above sports fields - they are easily locatable by looking for the presence of a bird called the fork tailed dronga which sits on tall trees near these and flies straight up and comes down. I shot one such bird and it's gut contained mainly drones leading me to suspect the area is a DCA - if it is it must be drawing from a feral population in the high hundreds - which is why my town bred queens are always better than rural ones where there is less genetic diversity. As far as I can tell my bees are always healthy, not affected badly by the hive beetle and of moderate personality at most times of year. As far as Santa Barbara is concerned - feral bees there will hopefully continue their boom - and wise breeders will take those bees and breed from them - remembering that of course the bees have not been sanitised with fluvalinate, tetra-mycin and all those other western products that treat symptoms not problems - hey maybe the bees have even re-inocculated themselves with Candida apis which 14 years ago was found to reduce certain mite infestations naturally - but of course being in bees naturally it was unpatentable!! Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:38:24 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Lesotho Bees - Field trip report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi All I have been meaning to draft a report back on my recent field trip to the mountain kingdom of Lesotho - to describe the bees up there. Lesotho is a small landlocked mountainous country in the middle of South Africa. It contains a big chunk of the Drakensberg (dragons mountains) also known as the Maluti highlands. These are some of the higher mountains in africa, and also some of the more rugged. They recieve above average rainfall for the region and form the catchment area for many important rivers. Winters are cold, with snow cover thick enough to allow skiing in regions (if one is adventurous). Bees occur in these areas quite happily. The human population is comprised of the Basutho, a strong mountainous african population with a vibrant culture and good work ethic. The Basutho are a beautiful healthy people, kept trim and fit by their healthy lifestyle. Most industries are human powered and major exports consist at present of labour, water (to south africa) and narcotics (marijuana). Fabrics are also important. Vegetation consists of grassland, sedge and small patches of scrubby heath. My task was to take ten colonies of A.m.capensis to an isolated region 2000m above see level and to bring native colonies back from those heights to my level (380m where I have the hives). Taking the bees to the highlands was easy - finding bees to bring back was more difficult. Beekeeping is not a major occupation in Lesotho, although recent government initiatives have got about 70 beehives going (in a country with a human population of 3 million this is few). To gather ten hives with queens involved a 1300km expedition into back valleys of these rugged mountains (one usually travels in second gear most of the way in order not to burn out the breaks). The bees themselves are quiet hard working bees that seem to be resourceful foragers/scavengers managing to scrape together at least 10 to 20kgs of weird mountain honey a year from the overgrazed mountains nearby. Most flowers are small yellow things burried in the grass - which appear to be visited by 'random forager' - bees just cruising the area looking for flowers. The bees are larger than the cape honeybee, and are bright yellow in coloration. They appear to be much less diverse in colour configurations with a standard yellow with thin black stripes look. The queens are all golden coloured with orange brown backs. I was able to work all hives with little protection ( a veil occasionally) and given that most hives had frames, but no foundation and had to be butchered to find the queens a total of 7 stings for 10 queens collected was quite small. (With capensis I would normally average about half that for a single queen!) The bees appear to maintain a compact brood cluster and I saw very few empty cells. Hive beetles were observed, and similar guarding behaviour to that of capensis was evident. Communication with locals suggested that hives swarmed once a year in early november, and if rains were good would also swarm going into winter. Many traditional honey gatherers exist who gather honey from the extremely harsh highland cliffs - wild hives in the Catze area are often 2700m above sea level and well above the snow line in winter. Honey in Lesotho sells for about US$4.30 a kilogram (about 2.15 for a pound sized jar) - hence in a poor area these hives represent a considerable source of income to the villagers, often providing more instant wealth than traditional crops like maize etc - which have to be tended. Scenery wise the country is amazing and anybody thinking of coming to the southern african area should definitely cash in on a trip there (if you earn a real currency like pounds of US$ bear in mind that for myself and a helper it cost us US$110 for food and accomodation!!) All major roads are tarred and free of potholes as well alowing one to go right into the heart of the highlands. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis 6139 South Africa Time = Honey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:22:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: Do you have killer bees in your country? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: Andy Nachbaur An: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Datum: Sonntag, 17. Januar 1999 05:17 Betreff: Do you have killer bees in your country? >I just gots to ask, how many people are killed by bees and/or honey bees >each year in your country? Although we have no killer bees in our country and probably not in Europe= at all there are people killed by bees of course. That's not a problem of africanization of our bee population or breed in Europe. Learning beekeeping I was told that bees are the most dangerous wild anim= als in Europe according to the number of deathes each year. It is said, bees = are even more dangerous than snakes, wolfs or anything else. I don't want to tell you about the spectre of European bees. They aren't very dangerous and aggressive. Especially the Carnica race is far less agressive than the former dark German bee Apis mellifera mellifera, which you could work at only being wrapped up like an astronaut. The reason for all this killing by bees is the allergic reaction of some people. If one has this handicap only a few stings by bees or wasps will be highl= y dangerous and critical. >Its hard to understand how a country like Switzerland with few honeybees >can lose so many people from bee stings? Maybe they have "killer" bumble bees? Of course the absolute number of bees in Switzerland or Germany is low bu= t I'm convinced that the number of bees or hives per square mile is higher than in the US of America in these densely populated countries. Just one horror story about the danger of bees. About 2 years ago there w= as a report in our papers about killing in Cekoslovakia. I don't know whethe= r it was a canard but it seem true to me. A farmer was riding with his horse and cart full of dung on a country roa= d, when he was attact by a swarm of bees. He wasn't killed by the bees as fa= r as I remember but his horse died getting stung by the bees. Aggressivity seems to be provoked by the smelling of the dung and the sweat of the hor= ses in summer. =2E Please note: My bees are angles compared to those told about before! Bye for now Reimund ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Beekeeper in Germany (Bavaria) Queen Rearing of Carniolan Bees Insemination Station ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 50=B0 North, 11=B0 East ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:22:16 -0800 Reply-To: beeman@NOSPAMkingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Swarm control?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everybody, Well finally a day with out snow! Here in southeastern Ontario we have had between 123 and 150cm of snow ( not including drifts). But today the sun is shinning and its incredibly warm out. My thermometer is reading 10c or 50f. So I tramped out to check the hives. Well they were pretty much buried up to the top hole so I dug down to the entrance and cleaned it out of the ice and dead bees. Well, with the sun shining a few of my girls came out to greet me. The hives seem well. I took the lid off and the was a nice gentle hum coming from down in the hive. So with the warm weather I started to think about spring. I was wondering about how many different ways beekeepers have for swarm control! I tried a method last year that I read from a magazine. I placed the apistan strips in in march. I also removed the tar paper covering. After the aloted time pasted for the Apistan I removed them and put on a super( around the last week of April). This worked well as this hive didn't swarm and gave me a great amount of honey. I also made a split from this hive later on in July. Now I know this is hardly proof that this is a workable system but I'm going to try it again this year. How about anyone else? -- Kent Stienburg Remove NOSPAM to reply. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:06:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dalby Subject: Bee sting deaths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In answer to Andy In the U.K. the generally accepted figure for deaths resulting from stings by all insects, not just bees, is 4 or 5 per year but I do not have the official data in front of me to back this up. This includes England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We do not have the African Bees as such but Brother Adam imported genetic material from some of the african strains of bees for his breeding work at Buckfast Abbey. This is well documented in the books he wrote on his work. The huge mixture of bees in the UK after many years of imports can occasionally give rise to some very vicious colonies. Peter and Barbara Dalby, England E-mail: peter.pebadale@virgin.net barbara.dalby@virgin.net Web Site: http://freespace.virgin.net/peter.pebadale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 00:59:21 +0000 Reply-To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: aweinert Subject: Honey from Gorse ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Can anyone tell me if it is possible to get honey from Gorse. I was asked this by a friend from Tasmania where this is an introduced weed species form Britain. It covers great areas and flowers freely, but does it produce attractive nectar in storable quantities. regards Andrew Weinert Atherton, Tropical North Queensland Australia 17.17 Degrees South, 145.30 Degrees East phone +61 (0)7 4091 4667 e-mail aweinert@tpgi.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:35:08 -0500 Reply-To: jrosas@uniandes.edu.co Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jose Rosas Subject: GLASS In-Reply-To: <199812261513.KAA03648@ayax.uniandes.edu.co> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't like the glass in which honey is packed here in Colombia.... I would like to study other posibilites so may be some of you can give me a hand to find a supplier in the states of nice glass bottles to pack the honey.... Thanks in advance to all. Regards, Jose Rosas jrosas@uniandes.edu.co Colombia -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU]On Behalf Of Joel F. Magsaysay Sent: Viernes 25 de Diciembre de 1998 09:43 PM To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Producing Frames About 23 years ago, I put up a woodshop from junk & scraps to make my own wood equipment. During the initial years, it felt good to be working with pinewood, the smell of fresh cuts, the smoker fuel in abundance, all the little pieces which found use as beer coasters, parquet, etc., the satisfaction of fashioning a unique business out of junk and flowers. As the operation grew, the picture changed. Economics muscled it's way into my reverie. To be able to focus on beekeeping, I needed to free my time from ancillary tasks. I outsourced. I found a good furniture manufacturer, taught her people the exacting standards, troubleshooted her machine lines, incentivised her people. Now, she even gives us a credit line. I order 2 weeks in advance and she can deliver 100 doubles - complete, one month to pay. If I do it right, I can even pay her with the proceeds from sales. Australia comes out with nice frame ends. All you have to make are straight top bars and bottom bars. You will have to glue the preformed ends on. Be sure to wire the frames tightly together. The bees have a little tougher time "welding" the wax foundation to the top bars, but when they do everything turns out ok. Be sure to fit the foundation all the way down to the bottom bars, so the bees can weld it to the wood too. This may take out most of the work from producing your own beehives. That is if you don't plan on finger-jointing the box corners. Here in the tropics, we have found that rabbet-jointed corners let less water in and last longer-if you use the right glue. We use flush covers, no inner covers, linoleum sheets for inner covers and pallet style bottoms. We do a lot of moving so our equipment has to be strong and simple. With 4 holes on the covers and 4 entrances on the bottom boards. We use tin sheets for flooring to retard the rot. Everything is Langstroth standard - inside dimensions only. Happy woodworking! Happy New Year to all our Fellow Bekeepers. Joel & Violaine Magsaysay Landline & Telefax: (063) 046-865-0018 Cellphone & Cellfax: IDD: 063-912-318-7517 DDD: 0912-318-7517 Mail to: P. O. Box #1, 4118 Silang, Cavite, Philippines Home Apiary: ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS #8 ILOG MARIA KM. 47, AGUINALDO HIGHWAY LALAAN 1, SILANG, CAVITE PHILIPPINES ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:53:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Swarm control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With regard to swarm control, Kent reports "put on a super( around the last week of April). This worked well as this hive didn't swarm and gave me a great amount of honey." I live near Albany, NY and probably have weather conditions much like Kent experiences in Southern Ontario. Around here the successful commercial beekeepers put on three 6 5/8" supers or two deeps (as supers) before the dandelion flow, as swarm control and to maximize the amount of honey collected. This is similar to what Kent reports, except there is more leeway (dandelions bloom here around May 15) and by tying the supering to a bloom the information might be helpful to those in a different climate. In a normal year, in this part of the country, that much supering might be sufficient for the season. However, for the past few years some beekeepers have had to double the number of supers before seasons end, and many beekeepers have had to increase the number of supers by 50%. Of course, this method of swarm control is only useful to those producing honey for extracting. Swarm control for the production of comb honey is another entirely different story. Lloyd Email LloydSpear@msn.com Owner, Ross Rounds(tm), the finest in comb honey production. http://www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:37:42 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Murray McGregor comments In-Reply-To: <916461610.21786.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 > Further clarification (hopefully): > > Virgin queens mate with drones from a good many different hives. Simple >rules of biology thus prevail. If the vast majority of those nearby hives >have been kept alive with Apistan strips, those queens on mating flights >will likely acquire sperm mostly from drones that carry virtually no >resistance to varroa mites. > > By contrast, in an area without managed colonies (and where no one uses >Apistan strips), queens will mate almost entirely with drones from colonies >that somehow have resisted the depredation of varroa mites. > > In other words, we must think in terms of a population of colonies, not >in terms of individual colony tolerance of mites. I agree largely with this and find your meaning perfectly clear. It is, nonetheless, going to be a problem for honey producers, pest controllers, and all sort of people. The PR for beekeepers will be bad, as the public just do not generally like having swarms descending on their homes and gardens. When you turn up to help them it often seems that they blame you personally for what you can often be quite sure is not from your bees. It is also part of our livelihood which flies off if it is one of ours. However, I digress. Your point about the general resilience of the bees, as an overall population, is perfectly valid. In the case of heavily swarming strains it may not even matter if ANY of the bees are varroa fighters. The number of colonies out there will recover and varroa will not eradicate bees in general. Individual colonies will, of course just go through the normal varroa cycle of build-up, normal working, and collapse. Thus I do not entirely agree with your point about the matings in feral areas being with drones from colonies which have survived the mites, as these drones, in the scenario under discussion, are likely to only be from swarmy strains. In other words from a surviving overall population, not from individual surviving colonies. It could even be that all commercial operators will get out of such matings will be swarmy bees, individually no better than their current stock at surviving varroa (on a colony basis), and because of the management issues involved, producing less honey. Unfortunately hive management is about individual colonies, each one is part of our livestock, and no-one likes to see them sick or dying. Treatment will remain essential in economically viable -ups, and the transition to swarmy strains will be a serious problem to such people. Once truly resistant bees are found it will be a major challenge to the next generation of queen breeders to get the swarming bred back out of them, and incorporate all the other positive traits selected for over the years. I have read of eastern european beekeepers surviving varroa by exploiting this swarming trait, but they need to run a higher number of colonies than normal. A rule of thumb I have heard is that for every two hives you ran before varroa you must run three after it to produce the same results. Reason is that colonies collapse, and at any time there can be up to 30% empty hives. These are just moved around with the full ones and get occupied by swarms, thus replacing the losses. It is an endless cycle of collapse and replacement. I can see it being impractical in many areas though, as wax moths will quickly destroy the combs. I hope this thread runs for a while as it is adressing an issue of great importance to most. Kind regards to all from a somewhat cold and dull Scotland Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:48:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beverly Stanley Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Jan 1999 to 16 Jan 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Jerry: My son, age 11, plans to do something on a very elementary level that is similar to your own project. He can only afford one thermometer and will have to go outside and read it. It's the only one we could find that was affordable with a probe to insert into the hive cluster. He plans to take down the data, graph it, take pictures etc. and use it in his school science fair. He won last year on the regional level (2nd in the elementary division) when he did a report on find varroa in his bees during the winter even after they had been treated properly in the fall. He re-treated the hives and saved every one of them. He ended up with seven hives from five, two of which produced most of his 400 lbs. of honey this year. It sold so fast at our little roadside, honer system payment, stand, that we've now run out for the people who still come to the door looking for local honey. We were amazed since we are rather new to this. It's Kevin's third year of beekeeping. We also enjoy it now after our initial hesitancy. People often ask about what the bees do in the winter here, so it is a way of showing that to them. He does the projects himself, setting it up with hypothesis, research, data, etc. They aren't perfect, but he is learning as he goes rather than having Mom or Dad do it like so many others. I thought if he had a copy of your data, he could compare his results to it and refer to it since his resources are so limited. Let me know if you can help. Beverly Stanley Princeton, NJ, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 06:43:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Moving bees in Winter Comments: cc: allend@internode.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/99 12:50:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, allend@internode.net writes: > I've been following this thread and have to add that, although the matter > has been exhaustively covered in the past, there have been some recent > responses that are simply wrong and I appreciate this common sense post. > >FWIW, I have experienced no problem *whatsoever* moving bees in the winter >over the twenty-five or so years that I have done so without *any* special >attention or preparation. And I have moved bees as far as 500 miles in >sub-freezing temps on an open truck in mid-winter. Allen is 100% right. Recent posts that advise against moving bees in winter, and that advise stopping up hives, are sheer nonsense. Winter is a perfect time to move bees, with much lower risk or difficulty than moving them in summer heat. I've moved them at every season. And NEVER stop up a hive, unless you have good equipment and can put both top and bottom screens on it. I've never found that necessary, which is good, since it would not be possible with my equipment. (I don't have an outside job to support my beekeeping, so I have to make do with stuff that a lot of hobbyists would be ashamed of....) The bees will not fly at temps below about 50 F, and, as long as you keep moving, will not fly at temps somewhat above that. From 32 to 50 degrees F, just smoke very sparingly, load on the bees and move them to the new spot. The bottom boards should be stapled on to avoid problems. If it is a two story hive and not well glued by the bees, staple the storys together, too. Below 32, don't smoke, handle them VERY gently to avoid breaking the cluster (dropped bees may be too cold to get back to the cluster), and face the entrances backward, so they will not scoop up cold wind as you drive. (In the summer we try to face them forward for maximum ventilation.) Below zero, it's probably not a good idea, but more because of human and equipment problems than bee considerations. I've seen steel snap like a plastic toy at 20 below. Migratory beekeepers move hundreds of truckloads of bees south each fall, sometimes as late as January. These bees can be dug out of snow in New York and easily arrive safely in the south. Believe me, it's a lot easier loading and trucking them in the cold. (-Unless they are in deep snow, or frozen to the ground.) But unloading them on a 75 degree day in the south, after they've not had a cleansing flight in weeks -- now THAT's a different story! Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 06:20:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: hello from would be beekeeper Comments: cc: doghouse@uriel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/99 2:48:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, doghouse@uriel.net (David Margulies) writes: > My daughter is two and I would like to build a glass walled beehive into the > wall of her room with the entrance outside. > the question is twofold: ONE, are the bees going to object to the light > from her room? Would the light upset their circadian rhythms? The bees use the light to find the entrance. Since the entrance is a long tube through the wall, they are often confused and try to get through the glass to get to the light. It seems to be a bigger problem at first, until they are familiar with the route to the entrance. But we keep a cover over our observations hives, when not being observed. > TWO, will the warmth of the room upset their hibernation in winter? Yes, although they don't really hibernate. It is extremely difficult to overwinter an observation hive. They are unable to cluster to hold their heat, and often brood gets chilled. If you keep them warm, they fly out and are unable to return. I have succeeded here in South Carolina, with a lot of effort, in overwintering an observation hive. I think it would take a lot better beekeeper than me to do it in the north. I commend you on wanting to start an observation hive. But you should plan on starting a couple regular hives also. The observation hive will practically explode when things are good (and you will have to remove brood or bees), then it will dwindle when things are poor (and you will have to add brood or adult bees). Because it is an unnatural shape, and limited size, it take a lot more intense management. And you must also have regular hives to meet those needs. And in the fall, take down your observation hive and combine it with a regular one. The first observation hive I ever kept was on the counter in my kitchen, and I learned more that summer than I ever would have thought possible (didn't get as much work done, though....). But don't be surprised or disappointed, if you only get six or eight weeks out of your hive on the first try. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:38:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Haberl Organization: Hessische Landesanstalt fuer Tierzucht Subject: Re: hand fertilization of unferlized eggs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D. Murrell wrote: > It appears that some of the advantages of instrumental insemination > in a breeding program could be achieved or even accelerated by hand > fertilizing. Mr. Haberl, could you share the details of this procedure > with the list for those of use not having access to the German journals. Personally, I do not have any experience in hand fertilisation of previously unfertilised eggs, but I came across these articles some time ago. A great potential for bee breeding lies in this technique and it makes me wonder why it has received so little attention so far, especially, as it was in principle performed already in 1919 by Barrett. I will use the term 'artificial fertilisation' (AF) for fertilisation of previously unfertilised eggs. Unfortunately, many people, at least in Germany, do not use the adequate terminology with regard to insemination. What is called 'artificial insemination' should better be called 'artificial mating' (AM) in bees IMHO. The following procedure was published by Frank Neumann in the 'Deutsches Bienenjournal', issue March 1995): 1. Preparation of drones/semen: - Let the queen lay unfertilised eggs in drone combs about 40 days (24 days development + ca. 16 days for sexual maturity) before AF. These drones should hatch under controlled conditions to be sure about their origin. If e.g. marked with colour paint on their thorax, they can be allowed to freely fly because only a few are needed (one?). - Here comes the most difficult part: Fill a sterile syringe (volume about 1 ml) about half with sterile sperm dilution buffer (same as used as a stop solution in AM). Attach a sterile glass capillary (about same as with AM) to the syringe and make the dilution buffer fill the capillary, then draw back to make a small volume of air enter the capillary. This air bubble is used to separate the semen from the dilution buffer (this large portion in the 'back' of the syringe). The semen of one selected drone (about 1 ul) is then collected in the glass capillary (same procedure as with AM). Thereafter, draw about eight to ten times the volume of the semen (i.e. 10 ul) of semen dilution buffer into the syringe and mix the semen and this small volume of buffer through repeated draw and push cycles on a sterile glass plate. The prepared, diluted semen can be used several hours if stored at room temperature and in the dark. 2. Preparation of unfertilised eggs: - In the morning, cage the queen on one side of a empty fully drawn drone comb. It will take some time till she begins egg laying. In the afternoon transfer the queen to the other side of the same comb. Now, she will continue egg laying after a few minutes. These eggs can now be used for AF. (My comment: In another article I read that if unfertilised eggs will enter development spontaneously after about 4 hours. So in practice, one could wait about 2-3 hours before taking the drone comb to ensure that enough eggs have been laid). - The syringe with the diluted sperm is pushed so that the diluted sperm forms half a droplet at the end of the glass capillary. A egg to be fertilised must now be covered with diluted sperm at it's upper 25 % (the free end of the egg not being attached to the cell) for a second. That's it! To prevent the sperm from drying, the droplet is drawn back into the syringe each time after AF. Be sure to mark the respective cells (using e.g. an overhead transparency) on the comb. - The comb with AF-eggs is then transferred to a previously dequeened colony. After 3 days the larvae can be grafted as usual. The raised queens can be used for AM too, of course. If queens are reared from AF-eggs and mated uncontrolled, you may profit from heterosis effects (in workers) in each generation, but at the same time be able to keep 'your' race/breeding line/etc. 'pure'. But one can think of many more applications. Compared to AM, time schedules are reduced significantly. Except from the syringe and the glass capillary, you do not need any special equipment. For sterilisation you can use a high pressure cooking pot (about 120 degrees Celsius, 20 min). -- Michael Haberl Hessische Landesanstalt fuer Tierzucht, Abt. Bienenzucht Erlenstr. 9, 35274 Kirchhain, Germany, 51n 9w Tel: ++49-6422-9406-12 Fax: ++49-6422-9406-33 haberl@mailer.uni-marburg.de ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:02:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Malachy Subject: Re: Moving bees in Winter In-Reply-To: <199901181353.FAA15232@grace.speakeasy.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII What kind of crops in NY State are commercial beekeepers pollinating? dm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:56:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Overwintering an observation hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: I must be just lucky. I have kept observation hives year round for longer than I can remember. You can check out the one in my office at any time. It has been on the web since April of 98. Maybe it is harder to keep them going in a warmer climate. For what it is worth, make it bigger than one frame. I never had much luck with little hives - the unit either dwindled or swarmed. I keep the sides covered and sometimes use some form of insulation board. My office is almost all glass on the south side, and it is just too bright to leave the hive uncovered -the bees would soon gunk up the plexiglass with propolis and burr comb. However, I have seen rows of observation hives in slightly darkened rooms that go year round without covers. Contrary to statements made on this list, my bees DO NOT FLY outside on a cold day, even though my office stays at 65-70 degrees F. On mild days, they sometimes fly and sometimes stay in. They seem to know when the weather is going to stay dry and calm (so they take a cleansing flight). On other days that look good to me, no one leaves the hive. And the weather almost always changes for the worse. A few bees are flying today. More flew three days ago, and a sizable number flew 5 days ago. You can look at the flight files on our web page and cross-reference these to the outside weather conditions, if you like. When it hit -20 F just before Christmas, the population dropped down towards the bottom of the hive and stayed near the back side - farthest from the window. We suspect that they were avoiding the chilly draft from the entrance tube and the windows. The rest of the time, they prefer the mid- to upper- part of the hive and work towards the window side of the hive - probably due to slightly warmer temperatures in that part of the hive. Our 96 temperature probe nucleus hive that stays outside also tends to cluster near the front wall of the hive, above the entrance. My rules of thumb - use at least a two frame (both deeps) hive. I prefer a 3 frame unit, constructed so that I can lift off the top frame (indoors). My 5 frame on-line unit was built to mimic our research nucleus hives. To date, the bees have never used more than 4 of the frames. Ventilate!! This is a big issue in a small hive. I have seen water pouring down the inside of hives. The heat coming off the top of a small observation hive with a strong bee population is amazing. So pop in some vents - you can always close the. Make the sides easy to remove - don't put the glass or plexiglass in a channel - the bees will glue it in so tight it can't be removed. Following Norm Gary's design, I surface mount the glass and used mirror clips or removable wood strips to it in place. Provide a means of feeding the bees. Provide a means of removing dead bees from the bottom of the hive (in case the bees themselves don't do this job). Watch your bee space. Too small, and the bees will have to work hard rebuilding comb to a thinner dimension. Too large, and they will bridge with wax and propolis to the glass, obsructing the view. Be sure that you can easily detach the hive from its entrance tube and make provisions for carrying it outdoors (handles are nice). Periodically, you may have to replace a queen, reduce the population size, increase the population, etc. Doing that indoors is no fun. Finally, this should be obvious, but make it sturdy and well-sealed. I have seen loose entrance tubes fall out of the wall or hive, hives on cardboard boxes that fall over when a child leans against the box, etc. For years I used glass, but I have changed to plexiglass. The bees haven't gummed it up any worse than glass, and the safety factor (against breakage) is much better. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:52:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Moving bees in Winter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/18/99 1:40:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, dm@SPEAKEASY.ORG writes: > What kind of crops in NY State are > commercial beekeepers pollinating? Ho Boy! There's a long list. Just about all tree fruits require bees. Apples, pears, plums, cherries, peaches. I know beekeepers that have done them all. There is a mythology among some growers that sweet cherries and peaches don't need bees; that they are "self-pollinating." Some are self fertile, but that's a different matter, and smart growers put in bees. I knew one cherry grower that put in bees and got a good set before a frost killed a lot of the bloom. The frost didn't affect him near as much because his were already pollinated, so he had a good crop, while many other growers had practically nothing. The Michigan crop also failed that year, so prices were about 50 cents a pound. He had a violent thunderstorm move through and broke up a lot of the trees, just before harvest. He had crews in there picking off the chrries from the limbs laying on the ground. I made some kind of remark about it, because sour cherry growers rarely use hand labor, and normally would not bother with broken limbs anyway. He said, "Well, you are looking at a million-dollar crop, this year." A lot of slicer cukes are grown in the western part of the state, and these require bees. Pumpkins and squash..... I know of one Amish grower who actually gets a crop of cantaloupe most years. He's an expert at it, and does use a lot of bees for his market farm. Hmmm, strawberries, blueberries, blackberries....... Ask around, and I'll bet you'll turn up some specialty crops, too. Or maybe you won't, because the beekeeper who does them, does not want competition from other beekeepers. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:53:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: Re: KILLER BEES Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have it in my mind that the annual tally of people in the UK allegedly killed by bees is in the region of 11 but I have no idea of the source of this rumour. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:16:54 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Patrick VIENNE Subject: Looking Shipping materials Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit French Beekeeper is : Vincent GIROD 354 bd front de mer L'Ayguade 83400 HYERES Tel/Fax : 04-94-05-38-23 Email : Vgirod@aol.com Hi, evrey body I am looking for information (addresses) concerning companies who manufacture shipping materials (cardboard boxes, plastic etc..) for nucs and packaged bees. Any information will be appreciated. Thanks in advance Vincent Girod ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:45:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: Questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Nick: Rev. Leon L. Langstroth discovered "bee space" in 1851 and hence built the first movable frame hive we use today. Both Dadant and Root started up within 1-2 years of each other, about 1871. The Tracheal mite (acarapis woodi) was first found in the U.S. in 1984. The Varroa mite (varroa jacobsoni) was first found in the U.S. in 1987. The Africanized Honey Bee (apis mellifera scutellata), a.k.a. killer bee, first crossed the Rio Grande from Mexico into Hildago, Texas on Oct. 20, 1990, and have now been found in Arizona, New Mexico, California, and Nevada. The first Italian queen was brought to the U. S. in 1857, the first Carniolan in 1905, and the Buckfast (which is a hybrid, not a race) is bred only by Weaver in Texas by artificially inseminating queens with drone semen flown here from Great Britain. The feral honey bee population in 1998 was only about 10-15% of what it was before the mites arrived. Richard Adee is the largest honey producer in the U.S. and has 60,000 colonies. A good young queen can lay 1500 eggs (one every 30 seconds) per day during late spring. The queen lays male drones or female workers by her choice based on the need of the colony; and she only breeds once in her life storing about 5 million sperm for the remainder of her life, and releases one sperm to fertilize each worker egg as she lays it. I started beekeeping 65 years ago in June, 1933. Ha Ha! Hope this helps George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:47:03 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dave general Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello Bee-L, I have been following the feral drone string with much interest. It seems to me that perhaps the only genetic trait that the feral drones carry is that for swarming. The more you breed from them, the higher will be the incidence of that trait in your population, in effect, reversing the decades of dedicated work by your queen breeders. I am reminded of the state of Apis cerana beekeeping in my country. Our local strains are notorious for absconding, a different behavior but with a similar result to the beekeeper, little or no honey. For this reason alone, many beekeepers shy away from A.cerana. No matter how well managed the hives are, the bees will still abscond. The beekeeper is usually left wondering what went wrong. The research to find a non-absconding strain has not been successful as yet. In other words, we don't even have the desirable material to start breeding from. You are fortunate in that the bees available in the market no longer exhibit such wild behavior. Don't throw away that advantage which has allowed beekeeping to grow to such a large scale in the US. Regards, Dave General Cagayan de Oro City Philippines 8.29 N, 124.39 E ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:22:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Buck Rut Subject: Buckfast Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings All, I read the information the George presented in his post, and I beg to differ with him about the information about the Buckfast bee's that he presented. True, Weaver's are the only US breeders of the Buckfast bee, but, they are no longer breeding a true, Brother Adams Buckfast. Weavers no longer pay royalties to the Buckfast Abbey, therefore, they are not creating true Buckfast bees. Because they dont pay the royalties, they are not entitled to receive semen from them either. All of the queens that are shipped are open mated queens. Since their operation is located in an area containing AHB, there is concern that some of the queens may be inseminated by AHB drones. To help lessen the chance of an AHB drone inseminating a queen, they saturate the area with the Buckfast drones. Many beekeepers in our area have noticed a marked increase in agression of the Buckfast hives. I know from experience too. I have a Buckfast hive I call the hive from hell! Technically, there are no breeders in the US that produce the true Buckfast bee that Brother Adams worked on. There are 3 breeders in Canada though, that do pay the royalties to the Abbey, and do produce the true Brother Adams Buckfast Bees. Sorry though, I dont have their information with me now. They can and will ship queens to the US, but I think they are only shipped in the fall. I have spoken to people who have used these queens, and they say there is a big difference between them and the Weaver's queens. They live up to the billing that the Buckfast bees are noted for. Sincerely, Scott Moser _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:16:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: Rent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gary: $2.75/5 pounds = 55 cents per pound. Commercial beekeepers are going bankrupt and working 16 hours/day and getting 70-75 cents/pound. Why are you so cheap? Even store CHINESE honey is about $2.59/pound. I think you are hurting beekeeping! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:52:36 -0500 Reply-To: elewis@gisco.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eric Lewis Subject: C.C.Miller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know this probably isn't the place but I'm running out of options. I'm looking for a copy of Dr.C.C.Miller's book "Fifty years among the Bees". I understand it was reprinted in 1986 or 1987 by Molly Yes Press but I can't find a copy for less than $56. Do you have any ideas on where one might be available? I appreciate your help. Thanks, Eric Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:19:08 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Buckfast Suppliers in Ontario, CANADA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The following is a transcription of the post on 1997/03/28 by Mary Griffes on sci.ag.bee... found by a search for Buckfast AND Ontario on DejaNews --- Thanks Barry for posting the complete address info of the 3 OFFICIAL Buckfast Breeders in Ontario, Canada RICK NEILSON R R # 1 Stratton, ON, P0W 1N0, Canada Ph: 807-487-2387 OFFICIALLY recognized by Abbey Buckfast Breeder BARRY DAVIES R R #1 Seeley's Bay, ON. K0H 2N0 Canada Ph: 613-387-3171 -OFFICIALLY recognized by Abbey Buckfast Breeder - PAUL MONTOUX R R # 1 Hagersville, ON, N0A 1H0. Canada Ph: 905-768-5530 -OFFICIALLY recognized by Abbey Buckfast Breeder All three follow the official Buckfast system of selection which INCLUDES keeping pedigrees of the stock. From what I understand from talking to the 3 of them Rick is the most likely to be able to fill queen orders (SUMMER - remember it ain't really Spring there yet) but he is not online. -- The remainder of the list as posted by Barry Birkey (which follows) are members of the Ontario Bee Breeders Association but are not Buckfast Breeders as recognized by the Abbey. NEIL ORR Box 91 Wooler, ON. K0K 3M0, Canada Ph: 613-397-3280 - carniolans - THE BEE WORKS 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2 Orillia, ON. L3V 6H1. Canada Ph: 705-326-7171 E-mail: {HYPERLINK "http://www.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=beeworks@muskoka.net& ST=PS"}beeworks@muskoka.net The BeeWorks Home Page - italians - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:32:21 -0800 Reply-To: beeman@NOSPAMkingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Canadian Buckfast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I purchased both Buckfast and Carniolan queens. I bought the Buckfast from Barry Davies and the Carniolan from Neil Orr. All of the queens were excellent quality and have produced hives that exhibit the positive qualities of each strain. Since I can't decide which I like better I keep both. I live close to both producers. I find both very helpful. Each strain is exhibiting resistance to treachel mites. I'm not sure about varroa. I don't believe so. -- Kent Stienburg Remove NOSPAM to reply. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:06:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Buckfast Bees In-Reply-To: <916756220.1117195.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <916756220.1117195.0@uacsc2.albany.edu>, Buck Rut writes >To help lessen >the chance of an AHB drone inseminating a queen, they saturate the >area with the Buckfast drones. Many beekeepers in our area have >noticed a marked increase in agression of the Buckfast hives. I know >from experience too. I have a Buckfast hive I call the hive from hell! We don't use Buckfasts, but I know a breeder in the UK who has fairly recently given up on them, after breeding thousands over the years. In my last conversation with him he described those available in recent years as 'stapling the shirt to your back'. This is bred in a place where there is absolutely NO chance of meeting your africanised bees (southern England). He is of the opinion that over the last few years, not just since the departure of Bro. Adam, that the temperament of the strain has deteriorated. This seems to parallel your experiences. I have no first hand experience of this, but have no reason to disbelieve him. On the other hand, in discussions with several US beekeepers and breeders, it seems that they are regarded as very special and are gentle and productive. During a visit to Denmark in September this year I had the pleasure of handling the 'Buckfasts' of a local breeder there. They were so benign and placid, yet still hard working. This is from a specially maintained strain which has had no fresh input for several years (I think about 15 years), rather being inbred in Denmark. This does tend to indicate that the Buckfast of today is not the same as that of a decade or more ago. No-one has said that todays produce any less honey though, so far as I am aware. Kind regards Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:47:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Iodine Crystals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I received an inquiry about beekeepers using iodine crystals. I seem to remember some reports of dosing water with minerals, etc; but I can't seem to find any mention of the use of iodine in current day beekeeping in the U.S. Something rings a bell, but I can't place it. Any comments? Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:18:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob Organization: r.e.mcmillin co Subject: Western Pennsylvania Beekeepers' Seminar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This may of interest to the list members. The Western Pennsylvania Beekeepers' Seminar will be March 12-13 at the Penn State Beaver Campus. General Classroom Building in Monaca, PA. The Friday evening session will be 7-9 p.m., featuring Sue Cobey, Ohio State University. She will present the "New World Carniolan Cooperative Breeding Program," as well as a video on "Instrumental Insemination of Honey Bee Queens." Saturday's program will be from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. with a focus on Queens. There will also be workshops on Cooking with Honey, and Working with Wax. Other speakers include Steve and Ellie Conlon, Judy Gulleson, Jennifer Finley, Maryann Frazier, Royal Draper, Tom McCormack and Gwen Lutz. The reservation deadline is March 3. The cost including lunch is $15/person. For more information contact (724) 774-3003; fax (724) 774-0971 or email: BeaverExt@psu.edu. Should also be a few vendors present at the seminar. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:27:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: _Fifty_Years_Among_the_Bees_ by C.C. Miller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT $56 is not bad. I just finished reading my copy this past weekend - I paid $70 and was happy to find it. AMAZON.COM found a copy, they wanted $120! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:03:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: German Apitherapy Journal. Comments: To: Apither-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello dear bee and apitherapy friends, This is a message mainly for the German speakers. The German Apitherapy Society has a new, improved, Journal. If you need more details about it or want to join the society, please send an e-mail or write to: Schachtner Thomas Kreuzbergstr. 32, 94036 Passau, Germany. Tel: 0049-851-81691 Fax: 0049-851-87588 e-Mail: 101565.1776@compuserve.com e-Mail: schachtn@fmi.uni-passau.de eMail: apitherapy@iname.com Good luck and... viel Erfolg!!! Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup. Constanta, Romania apither@gmb.ro www.sci.fi/~apither www.beesting.com www.gmb.ro/personal/apither.htm TIME = HEALTH and KNOWLEDGE! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:52:17 +1300 Reply-To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Iodine Crystals In-Reply-To: <199901200644.TAA25820@axil.wave.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The old Texas German beekeeper I first worked with, Papa Max Bachofen, used to throw a small handful of iodised salt over the top bars in the spring. Claimed the iodine and other minerals helped in brood rearing in the spring. Also memory of Russian research re: the use of iodine and cobalt in queenrearing? > I received an inquiry about beekeepers using iodine crystals. I seem to > remember some reports of dosing water with minerals, etc (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz 'Order' files from an autoresponder... NZ Bkpg: Surv to Establish EFB Free Status? Email to: efb@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:54:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ernest Huber Subject: Buckfast Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello BEE-L, Today's discussion of purebred Buckfast Bees was very timely for me. I too have been bothered with agressive Buckfast Bees and I have become concerned that the ones from Texas may be getting Africanized. Recently my wife and I gave a slide show and talk to our local (Middlesex County Beekeeping Association in Mass. USA) about gardens and beekeeping in Southwest England. On our trip there we had a delightful visit to Buckfast Abbey which confirmed Scott Moser's comments about Weaver's not paying royalties to Buckfast Abbey and not, as a result, receiving infusions of new stock. Buckfast Abbey does not make a big deal about this because they are first and foremost a religious society. But as a result of our slide show I have had many people ask me for the address of the Canadian breeders who do breed the pure Buckfast strain. Thanks to Allen Dick for providing them. The BEE-L discussion came just one day before our next club meeting. How did you know? Ernie Huber ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:46:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "HELP" Subject: Re: _Fifty_Years_Among_the_Bees_ by C.C. Miller Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The reprint of this book is available from Thornes in England, cost =A39.5= 0 (pounds sterling). Carriage overseas will not be great. Contact thorne@dial.pipex.com for info. Regards Matthew J Allan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:48:16 -0800 Reply-To: cmichel@pbmo.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "M. C. Michel" Organization: Snap Shot Subject: Re: Buckfast Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My Texan Buckfast bees are GENTLE. I have had them for the past couple of years. They Texan version of Buckfast has been along side a variety of other bees. It seems they are very gentle, very productive and healthy. We had a very warm January day here yesterday approaching 60 degrees (20C) and I checked on my main apiary. The Starlines are good, the italians are ok but the 15 or so buckfast are outstanding. I know that it is a long standing tradition to jump on a subject and beat it into the ground, but I differ with the claims of mean buckfast. I have found that when a Buckfast queen is replaced, the offspring is usually aggressive. My very best colony last year was a buckfast which had been superseded. The resultant queen was very nice looking. Her colony produced five full (medium) honey supers. But wow, mean mean mean. Yesterday I was reminded of their aggressiveness when I could hardly see through my veil as they jumped on me. This year honey not withstanding, I'm replacing that queen. In conclusion, I like the buckfast bees. I like the Weavers service, and help. The only real complaint is that they do not use the right color on their queens. Last year was red. My queens were not. I like the time savings by ordering marked queens. I would prefer the proper color. But this is a very small problem with bees with which I've been very happy. Chris Michel Michel Family Apiaries Volant, Faciunt, Floremus (They fly, They make WE prosper) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:40:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Andy Nachbaur (by way of Andy Nachbaur )" Subject: Dec US Honey Market Reports Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Chow down on the Honey Market and Bee Condition reports with other depressing news such as the 3 semi loads of bees stolen in Washington and the beekeeper who made a "false statement" on his honey loan application who did not show up at the federal pen to start his two year attitude adjustment training. The "false statement" was not the name of his girl friends but that he would pay back the loan on honey he did not make. Also info on the new Afro Beatles and Varroa treatment strips from Bayer. Don't get your shorts in a wad they are only for sale in Florida as they are better beekeepers or lose more when parasites hit their hives or just PC and have used so many off the books treatments they need something new. This time the FDA laws are going to be self regulating because the regulators have not been too good at the job, at least that what you would think by reading the charges coming from the bee regulators and others. Anyway for all this depressing news about beekeeping and more as its made check out http://beenet.com/bnews.htm every few days after a tall one. Chow, the OLd Drone http://beenet.com (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:19:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Re: Dec US Honey Market Reports Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-01-20 11:44:25 EST, andy.nachbaur@CALWEST.NET (Andy Nachbaur) writes: << Also info on the new Afro Beatles and Varroa treatment strips from Bayer. Don't get your shorts in a wad they are only for sale in Florida..... >> They are also approved for South Carolina, and probably for the two other states where they have been found. Most likely they are in other states, but haven't been noticed, yet. They can fly. Dave Green www.pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:23:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Buckfast Bees About the Texas Buckfast bees. It seems that different people have different experiences with them. I don't know what the factors are that might result in the differences, but I can tell you from my own personal experience that the Buckfast bees I have gotten from Weavers in Navasota, Texas, have been about the gentlest bees I've worked with, the only bees I've ever worked without a veil. In my own experience, even their daughters have headed up gentle hives, but this is, again, my own personal experience. Maybe I got a good one and you got a bad one? I've never yet got a bad one from Weavers, but that doesn't mean I may not some day. Since I do my beekeeping in Texas, 20 miles down the road from Weavers, maybe that might have something to do with it. It's nice to be able to keep bees that have been bred by a "local" breeder where maybe they are adapted to my area somewhat. You may have got a "bad" one, I never have...what's the difference?--I don't know. I DO know that you CAN'T say that all Weaver's Buckfast bees are mean and aggressive, because I KNOW they are NOT. Just another personal experience perspective to throw into the mix while you curse Texas bees and praise Canadian bees. Layne Westover College Station, Texas, 36.4 deg N 96.2 deg W, 308' altitude, 38.6" mean ppt max 106 F, min 2 F, today, a balmy 80 F, and a/c broken in my building ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:35:16 -0800 Reply-To: gclewis@REMOVEpenn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Gary C. Lewis" Subject: American Bee Journal Comments: cc: rhk@intergrafix.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hell-o Bee Folks, American Bee Journal has a special subscription rate for the month of January. Normal rate is $19.25 per year. This month it is $12.75. Just thought I would pass this on for those that might be interested. Has been warm here for the past week or so and my bees are flying. They are not getting far as they chill down in flight and melt into the snow. I checked a few of the fallen bees and found no sign of mites but I guess that really doesn't mean much. I also cleaned out the bottom boards and have found very few dead bees. Perhaps a hundred or so in both hives. I also did a quick check in both hives and they are very strong, found brood and eggs in one. None in the other but didn't keep the hive open long so there may be brood in that one also. Food stores seem to be ok at this time. I think I may have to feed before to long. We have not really had an extended cold spell here in this part of Pa. It was warm into December, turned cold around the first day of winter and has been warm for the past week and looks to be warm for a least another week. At the rate they are going and the large pop- ulations in both hives has me concerned as to how long the stores will last. I don't want to start feeding to soon but I don't want them to starve either. That's it from Pa. for now. I would like to know how others in the northeast US are holding up. Anyone else having the same conditions and concerns? What is your game plan? Gary C. Lewis Duke Center, Pennsylvania. USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:47:17 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dalby Subject: Re: Buckfast bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have never kept these bees but a number of our association members have my experiences with them are below 1 The purchased queens(from more than one source) have been gentle and easy to handle although a bit variable. 2 Their daughter queens or maybe the next generation again mated in this area(Hertfordshire) have given rise to some of the meanest colonies I have ever handled. Up until 1984 the old established bee supply company of E H Taylor was situated only a few miles away and they had imported queens on and off since early this century,the bees in this area are a mix possibly as a result.blacks yellows and everything in-between. I do not know if this has any influence on the daughter queens but I suspect it may well do. This experience put me off buying buckfast bees as I did not want to be constantly buying in queens. For the last 10 years or so I have raised most of my own queens and though there is room for improvement I am fairly happy with the bees I have. Having a young family has been a great incentive to ruthlessly cull the queens from bad tempered colonies, we do not need to wear veils to handle the bees in the home apiary. I never met any buckfast bees which were as gentle as this. Peter Peter and Barbara Dalby, England E-mail: peter.pebadale@virgin.net barbara.dalby@virgin.net Web Site: http://freespace.virgin.net/peter.pebadale - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:07:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Iodine Crystals In-Reply-To: <199901200644.WAA27947@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:47 PM 1/19/99 -0700, you wrote: >I received an inquiry about beekeepers using iodine crystals. I seem to >remember some reports of dosing water with minerals, etc; but I can't seem >to find any mention of the use of iodine in current day beekeeping in the U.S. Hi Jerry, & Beekeeper Friends, Beekeepers this area for several years experimented with pure iodine crystals added in micro amounts to bee diets. I remember this as an attempt to find something that would be effective in treating chalk brood but it did not work out. I also remember pure iodine as a toxin so care should be given in any work with it. Prior to that for many years beekeepers here, myself included, use iodized salt and sulfa for prevention of AFB. A few table spoons were pored into the entrance of the hive or piled on the brood combs. The down side of tilting the hive back and poring a few ounces in was after a few seasons the nails in the bottom boards would rust off and when attempts were made to move the hive the bottom board would not be loaded with the hive. It may have prevented a few diseased hive but the accelerated depreciation on the metal parts of the hive was a greater burden then the disease for migratory beekeepers who move their hives several times a year onto all kinds of soil including types that hold the hive fast to the ground as the earth spins around the sun. >Something rings a bell, but I can't place it. Any comments? A few beekeepers have tried to fortify liquid sugar diets by the additions of trace minerals such as are sold as electrolytes for animals under stress in feed lots after trucking from pasture to pasture. As the cost was/is cheep I would judge nothing positive could be measured by the beekeepers and as far as I know few or no beekeepers are doing this today. The acceptance by bees of salt or the use of salt is directly related to what occurs naturally. Coastal bees seldom are attracted to salt, but the same bees moved 50 to 100 miles away from the coast to the Valley or the mountains will seek it out from natural sources such as minerals in soil, water, or even from salt blocks, natural salt licks, and also cattle or animal by-products that one steps in if not careful down on the farm. I have actually had them try to collect body salt on a hot sweaty day by landing on my hands and taking a bite out of the valley at the base of my fingers. At first blush one would think they have been stung but close observation is the bees will/are actually taking a bite and it hurts on sensitive skin. I don't know how many times I have been entertained by the bees crawling up to a more personal area of a man's anatomy and taking a bite from a inspecting new or old bee helper and seeing them drop their pants looking for the bee and non existence bee sting. Its always amazing that more times then not the victim does not even try to get out of the bee yard before removing the deadly offender and more times then not they crush the hapless bee and do get stung and marvel how that bee stung them twice. Chow, the OLd Drone http://beenet.com (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:16:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Gilbert Subject: Re: Honey from Gorse ?? Comments: To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In reply to Andrew Weinert question Can anyone tell me if it is possible to get honey from Gorse? Well Gorse or Ulex europaeus is a member of the pea, Leguminoseae or Fabeceae family. Fabeceae is the new botanic family name. It is a good source of pollen in the UK in April when it is flowering at its best but it flowers all year. We have a saying that when the gorse is in flower kissing is in season! As for nectar most books only list it as a pollen source, although Howes in his book "Plants & Beekeeping" does say that it probalbly could secrete under the right conditions. It is related closely to Broom, Cutisus ( both being members of thse Papilioatae ) -now broom has no nectar but peas, clover and beans do! The answers seems to be maybe if you have enough of it with no other more desirable forage near by. Hope that helps and once I am over the flu and can collect some flowers for dissection a fuller answer can follow. Bob Gilbert ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:02:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Buckfast Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would be careful in attributing Buckfast aggression to Weavers. I have purchased Italians from a supplier and got gentle ones and agressive ones. I currently have a mean Carniolian hive. Buckfast are no different than any other bees. You have the basic traits, but there will always be exceptions, as noted in comments about agressive Buckfast in Europe, where Weaver does not supply bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Buck Rut wrote: > . Many beekeepers in our area have > noticed a marked increase in agression of the Buckfast hives. I know > from experience too. I have a Buckfast hive I call the hive from hell! > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:42:58 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bee club MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone! Does any one know any beekeepers in Kong Kong? I have two hives of "Chinese" bees. I started beekeeping last year. I don't know if these bees would be considered aggressive because I have not kept any "foreign" bees yet (I don't use my veil anymore). Justin ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:46:54 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bee club MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am wondering if there is any breed of bees that there can be 2 or more Queens In one hive. I read that some kinds of ants can have more than one Queen in the same hive. Justin ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:11:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kai-M. Engfer" Subject: Queen bees in April? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Hi all, does anybody of You breed and sell mated queen bees at the end of April? If so, please let me know and tell me what kind of strain do You offer. Thank You very much! Kai-M. Engfer, Tel. 04347-8861 \| Ostlandstr. 1, http://insel.heim.at/mainau/330017 -|||8< D-24247 Mielkendorf GERMANY /| ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:50:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Victoria McDonough Subject: Re: Using bobby pins to hold foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Helen, I used bobby pins to hold my foundation and have found they work very well. They are longer than the "standard" clips sold in beekeeping supply catalogs and also less expensive. As far as brands go, I don't have a specific brand. I try to go to discount stores or large chain drug stores and buy the cheapest ones they have in the largest quantities available. Make sure you are buying bobby pins, not hair pins. (The hair pins are U shaped, bobby pins are more like a clip) The bees quickly cover up the bobby pins as they build out the comb. When you extract, they are not exposed as they hold the original base so I have not had problems with them in the extractor. After the comb is built out, you can even remove them. I had an older beekeeper tell me he even reused his bobby pins. Now that I thought was a frugal beekeeper! Good luck. Vickie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:16:36 -0500 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Buckfast Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 20 Jan 99, at 9:48, M. C. Michel wrote: > beat it into the ground, but I differ with the claims of mean buckfast. I > have found that when a Buckfast queen is replaced, the offspring is > usually aggressive. My very best colony last year was a buckfast which > had been superseded. The resultant queen was very nice looking. Her > colony produced five full (medium) honey supers. But wow, mean mean > mean. Yesterday I was reminded of their aggressiveness when I could > hardly see through my veil as they jumped on me. This year honey not > withstanding, I'm replacing that queen. Seems to be a common complaint. If you allow Buckfast to superscede then the chances are "very high" of ending up with aggressive mean bees, nothing like the mother. For the first time in my 50 years I had to destroy a hive, they were impossible to work, and they came from a 3rd generation superscedure Buckfast. If you want to run Buckfast either from the South or Canada, then make sure that they don't superscede. Because of this problem we have been running some trials of our own and am coming to some (early as yet) conclusions. Superscedeure or emergency queens are dubious, but made queens ie from grafted cells breed true and equal to the mother. If I my explain. We had a breeder queen from which we grafted a good number of cells and queens. That queen suffered an accident, possibly squished, so we allowed the hive to replace the queen hoping to maintain the genes. The offspring were terrible, useless, vicious and lazy. So this year I intend to do more trials to see if I can understand the problems. Brother Adam writes in "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey" that he rarely found good superscedure queens, but then failed to explain why? Anyone else with a similar problem? ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Queen Rearing Equipment. **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:48:54 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: ABF Updates anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Aaron: I stayed in Tennessee until Saturday, visiting beekeepers and queen breeders. You should have been at ABF yourself to gain firsthand info, but I will give you my point of view. As you might expect, the small hive beetle "stole the show" due to its newness, the apparent spread EVEN TO VERY NORTHERN STATES, the concern about the use of coumaphos to control it because the EPA IS IN TOTAL (I repeat, TOTAL!) control over its use anywhere in the U.S. Coumaphos can be used against the small hive beetle and the fluvalinate resistant varroa mite, only Florida. South Carolina, Minnesota, and ???? have been approved for a Section 18 exemption which is only good for 1 year, ending Jan. 1, 2000. Only Mann Lake is licensed to sell it and each state is assigned a CERTAIN number of strips it is allowed to purchase. I will write more details within the next 30 days after I "clear" them for publication. Although important, there was a tremendous amount of GOOD STUFF & NEW STUFF at the 5 day meeting. 1) There was a panel of experts from most segments of the honey production and sales area, and lots of questions from the floor, regarding the new changes in the Honey Board Act and support money. It was apparent that there was TREMENDOUS support for the Honey Board; and those in opposition were ignored. 2) A year ago, 10 queen breeders acting on their own pledged a gift of money for the sale of each queen or package of bees to a QUEEN BREEDER RESEARCH FUND. This money is to be used for research on many things, e. g. effect of medicinal chemicals on the queens and drones sexual organs; improving drone populations for breeding, working out problems with post office and other shipping carriers. 3) There were 12 Educational Workshops covering many subjects. I gave two: Upgrading from beeHAVER to beeKEEPER, and Optimizing Your Honey Production. I had 56 at the first and 42 at the second. I was told that ALL the workshops were well attended. 4) There were several SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS taking up subjects interesting to their special needs: Commercial Beekeepers; Package Bee and Queen Breeders; Honey Producers and Honey Packers; Research, Inspection and Extension Specialists; Basic Beekeeping Refresher Course. These were extremely well attended and I split my time between the Queen breeders and Researchers 5) ANYTHING concerning RESEARCH about any bee problem was the Number 1 interest of most attendees. The Research committee (to which I was assigned) covered umteen subjects, but of great interest to me was a proposal by Sue Cobey "to modify the 1922 existing law to allow HIGHLY CONTROLLED importing of selected species of bees or queens into the U. S. for use in UNIVERSITY or queen breeder research ONLY. This was approved for an ABF Resolution to be offered to the government. Our present U.S. genetic stock has been reduced to smallness by too much inbreeding. 6) Dr. Shimanuki has been assigned a new job: Technical Liaison to Industry, and Dr. Mark Feldlaufer replaces Shim as Research Leader at Beltsville Bee Research Laboratory. We had a 4 hour review of beekeeping research at USDA-ARS Laboratories presented by SHIM, MARK, Dr. Rinderer of Baton Rouge Lab, Dr. Bill Wilson of Weslaco Lab, Dr. Erickson of Tucson Lab and these various works were summarized by the NEW HEAD of the Staff, Dr. Karl Narang. When I see the MINOR amount of money given for bee research by our government, I get "sick". I guess we won't get more money until our legislators can't buy fruit or some vegetables in our grocery stores because of lack of honey bee pollination. Thank God, there was no money problems when I was developing atomic bombs back in 1944-45, or I might be speaking Japanese today. 7) The Honey Producers association held its annual meeting a few days prior to the ABF meeting, so many of them came to the ABF meeting for several days on their way back home. The Apiary Inspectors had their annual meeting in our hotel the last two days of our meeting, and so many of them joined with us. Aaron, how can you NOT learn the correct things and UN-learn your mistaken ideas when you go to an ABF meeting and are surrounded by 600 TOP EXPERTS from every segment of beekeeping? This, it itself, should be enough reason for anyone truly interested in bees, honey, or pollination to attend and LEARN, LEARN, LEARN. [Perhaps the package bee people don't want me to say that because informed people would no longer need many package bees since their own bees would be alive and increasing.] I missed chatting with you. I will write more about the small hive beetle about February 1st; but meanwhile, don't let anyone suggest to you that it won't be a problem in Maine or Minnesota because of the cold, or that apistan, formic acid, or essential oils will take care it, or that coumaphos can be gotten anywhere or that it can be easily used - 'CAUSE IT AIN"T SO! Just to "nip it in the bud", FROM THE PODIUM, LOUD AND CLEAR, Shim announced that "Yes, small hive beetles are a major problem EVERYWHERE, and anything contrary to that was a misinterpretation or words taken out of context". Yesterday was 54 degrees. I took off inner covers and checked my colonies, and all are alive and well. I start feeding 1:1 in two weeks to stimulate queen laying. George ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:35:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony M Jadczak Subject: salt For the past 10 years I have been adding iodized table salt to the spring TM dust mixture and pollen substitute fed to hives in March-April. The reason has nothing to do with what I was taught, read or science. Rather, the "logic" pertained to nuisance complaints I have received over the years from the public regarding honey bee behavior and perceived agressive behavior. The specific complaint that got me thinking was called to my office from my home town. The individual had returned home from a fishing trip and hung out the rugs from the boat to dry. He had been fishing in the Atlantic. He claimed that bees were covering his boat carpets by the 10's of thousands in search of water. I soon realized that these had to be my bees from my home apiary of 12 hives across the stream & woods from his place(1/4 mile). The stream never goes dry and ranges from 1-2 feet deep to whitewater. I know that the bees get water there from the banks of wet sand. I made an official investigation not letting on that I knew the beekeeper quite well. He was correct in his estimate on the number of bees. They covered the rugs like a bee beard. However, the rugs had been long dry and the bees were gathering the sea salt....hmmm. Additional evidence of bees' need for salt have arisen from nuisance complaints regarding animal feces. A couple years back a rabbit farm called concerning "millions" of bees working piles of rabbit manure that had been piled up. I have had calls from both chicken farmers and beekeepers regarding the bees on chicken manure piles. Two Maine beekeepers claim that the bees stopped rearing brood after working the chicken manure. One theory we came up with, but was never proven pertained to Larvadex which is a systemic fed to poultry to control flies (IGR for the maggots). The most recent complaint was this past August where a kennel owner complained that bees were all over the dog feces at his kennel. His concern was that the husky sled dogs were snapping at the bees and he didn't want to loose any of the valuable dogs. I suggested that he hose out the kennel which he would not do since they were dirt not concrete. I put the dog guy in contact with the keeper and suggested that they provide either moist cow licks or canning salt near the kennel to train the bees away from the dogs. I recommended that if the bees wouldn't leave the feces to try adding a little sugar or honey to the salt to entice them away. The guy stopped complaining after working with the keeper. I don't know if they were successful in getting the bees out of the kennel, but no news is good news from where I sit. To make a long story longer, bee behavior indicates that they need salt and/or minerals at certain times. My experience suggests that it is during spring buildup and during hot spells. I have also noticed butterflies workinng bear and coyote droppings. Enough bull for now. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:06:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eric Bullard Subject: Bobby pins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sounds like a good suggestion for super frames you're considering for cut comb. Those are the only ones I'm still putting basic wax foundation in anymore. I'll try it this year. But for brood frames and extracting frames, I am gradually going to all plastic based foundation. It only makes sense to go to a stronger, perfectly flat (no foundation waving) base for your bees to work with. Unless you're absolutely careless at extracting time, you should not have blowout frames where your wax comes out of the frame with this solid base. The extra expense of the plastic based foundation is well worth it when you consider the increase in uniformity from frame to frame and hive to hive. Less time correcting problems is more time for other more productive endeavors. Eric Bullard Asheville, NC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: _Fifty_Years_Among_the_Bees_ by C.C. Miller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I checked out barnesandnoble.com, and they were asking $8.75. I think that must be considered better than $56 (or $70 or $120). Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:10:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roger Flanders Subject: Re: salt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthony M. Jadozak wrote: >For the past 10 years I have been adding iodized table salt to the spring TM dust mixture and pollen substitute fed to hives in March-April... I'm too inexperienced to judge the validity of your theory, but your examples certainly are food for thought. How much salt per colony are you providing annually with the TM dust and pollen substitute? Can you tell if the salt is being ingested at the same rate as the TM and pollen substitute? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:19:11 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Black vs. White - Pierco Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) > I remember a while back there was a thread regarding pirco frames and > you were buying a bunch of black frames. I too, am thinking of buying > them and I would like to know how you like your black frames compared to > the white ones. They work well. I personally like the look better. I have a picture of a typical drawn frame at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ under the 'Our Operation' link. Page two, I think. > In addition, do they hold up well going through a steam powered > uncapping machine? I don't have one, but have never heard anything bad except that they slip a bit when new on some inclined chain conveyors, but if intermixed with wood, they ride fine. And, there was a problem of some sort with them being flexible in a spot where they are pushed through the Cowan uncapper. I don't know how serious it is, so you might wan to contact your uncapper manufacturer before making the plunge. I think Cowan may have a low cost add-on or home fix for this. Having said that, I'm planning to get a Cowan line. > Do you see any down sides to using them? The only problem I have found -- and Murray first pointed this out -- is that some of the frames are slightly (1/8" to 1/16") warped as they arrive from the factory. I took it up with my dealer, and he says it is due to the factory removing them from the mold too quickly or some such thing. I doubt I will receive any adjustment or compensation. Frankly I don't see what they can do about it except improve the management at the production line in the future. It's water over the dam, and as far as I have observed so far, not too serious. If buyers specify in their purchase order that they will return any defective product at the manufacturer's cost, I imagine that the flaw will soon disappear. Too late for me; mine are mostly covered with comb. Anyhow, I'm not personally too concerned about the ones I have. I'm happy. I don't want to make a fuss. Nonetheless, I won't accept such defects in the future. Anyhow, here is my report to the manufacturer on having examined ten frames at random from new, unopened cartons. --- > I looked at a random selection of one frame each from 10 different > cartons. The results: > Of the sampled ten frames, four were what I would call perfectly flat. > The rest were warped in some measure. The warping varied from: > * slight, and at only one end of the foundation (one half frame) to * > the whole thing being warped ~1/8" > Initially, the warping seemed to vary on how the frame was held, since > they bend a bit under their own weight. After learning this, I was > careful to avoid this effect. > Frankly, the Pierco frames seemed about as flat -- on average -- as > typical wax foundation after embedding, especially after consideration > is made for badly formed wooden end bars with holes slightly out of > place. Nonetheless, I do expect nothing less than perfection, since as > you know we are pretty close to perfect ourself (hehehe). > The worst case ones are, however, a cause for concern in my opinion, > and may constitute a problem if they do not flatten out. --- Murray found the problem so severe that he was moved to mark them all with a dot so that they would be inserted into hives all facing one way to ensure constant spacing. I guess I could illustrate the problem thus : |((((((((((| gives no problems. |(((()())))| could in extreme cases cause a problem. This example is very grossly exaggerated, obviously. As you can see there *could*, conceivably -- in the case of severe warping in two adjacent frames -- be so little space that brood rearing might be impossible between some frames. Moreover, a frame of sealed brood rotated 180 degrees on the vertical axis by the beekeeper and replaced (which sometimes ocurs by accident or design) could conceoivably result in the loss of some of the brood. As for me, well, frankly, most of my *wax* brood frames are at least 1/16 to 1/8" off flat, anyhow. It's hard to keep wax foundation perfectly flat especially when embedding by hand with a spur embedder.. The 10,000 wood and Permadent I made are probably the only totally flat frames in my outfit AFAIK. Even at that, a keen eye (which I have, having been a finish carpenter) can see slight variations even in well made wooden frames that will easily move the centre one way or the other 1/16" and sometimes more. The bottom bars are often off centre, the wire holes are often drilled off centre, and the top groove can be out of place 1/16". And come to think of it, the Permadent can be bowed if the frame grooves are a bit shallow and the the plastic is pinched a bit -- and not a loose fit. Also, in practice, the Permadents sometime get bowed a bit in extracting. Wood frames, after a season or two, space the frames a touch wider than when new, due to propolis builup. Pierco has thin contact areas to ensure tight fit -- if the frames are crowded with a hive tool -- so this widening effect will not likely ocur, making the tolerances more important? Maybe Murray will comment. We have many 9 frame metal-spaced BCs; there would never be a problem due to slight warping. The additional inter-frame spacing inherant in that practice gives a bit of leeway. The interferance problem would only ocur in 10 frame spacing where the frames are deliberately pushed tight together by the beekeeper. Anyhow, since you asked, I feel I should reply, and I am also sending this to the list as an update, since I have been boosting Pierco and should give the 'dark' side too. To reiterate and make things perfectly clear, I should say that I am not pleased to find some warping, but do not think -- at this point -- that it is causing me any problem whatsoever. I will order Pierco again, in black, but with a specification for the maximum warp I will accept. > Thanks for any input you can give me. I understand i can search the > list for old threads on this matter but i had some trouble w/ my > computer and lost all my old addresses and bookmarks so i don't have the > instructions anymore on how to do that. I thought it would be quicker > contacting you and asking directly. No problem. I needed to write an update anyhow. Check my sig line for how to search the easy way. I do it all the time myself, and it is truly amazing how much valuable information is there -- information I have forgotten exists. Allen --- Newsflash! Visit http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm to search BEE-L archives the easy, easy way or to update or change your subscription options. --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:04:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ahlert Schmidt Subject: Bees and salts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo, beefriends! I have read the comments on bees seeking for salts. Let me make a short comment: Bees do have a nerve system and the requirements for proper function of that nerves are around 100 mM NaCl within the bee body. Plants do have only limited concentrations of NaCl available, since higher concentrations of NaCl ar toxic to plants. Thus KCl is the major plant component, not NaCl. I speculate that bees raising thousands of new bees will need an appropiate amount of NaCl in oder to meet the requirements of the brood. Since the Na of plants is shifted towards K, Na has to be added for good develeopment, even for good development of cattle. I did not find such suggestion im my bee books, however ist seems to me obvious, that bees can not circumvent the NaCl requirement for proper nerve function. Ahlert Schmidt Professor of Botany ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:00:14 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: salt In-Reply-To: <13492917705826@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > For the past 10 years I have been adding iodized table salt to the > spring TM dust mixture and pollen substitute fed to hives in > March-April. The reason has nothing to do with what I was taught, > read or science. Rather, the "logic" pertained to nuisance > complaints I have received over the years from the public regarding > honey bee behavior and perceived agressive behavior... This has turned out to be an interesting thread, and this (above) post in particular has got me wondering. That's partly because I've decided to get a handle on this pollen patty thing once and for all. I've been digging up nutrient profiles for various ingredients and giving the *Hive and the Honeybee* article in chapter six a very careful re-read. I'd appreciate it if those who share my interest in bee nutrition would visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/Pollen.htm and email me their observations, arguments and contributions. I already have input from all around the world and am adding things as they come in and as I get around to it. I'll link to any other good sources, and also post any worthwhile (IMO) contributions with attribution to author. I'm still at the beginning of learning about this, but there is progress... originally, Jerry asked about iodine, and so far we are hearing about salt. The quoted post mentions sea salt, not just salt. Maybe it is the iodine and other minerals involved in sea salt that is a factor? I've heard that there is, for example rather large amount of gold dissolved in each cubic mile of seawater: enough to retire nicely on -- if one could only manage to extract it. Anyhow, back to the matter at hand. The *Hive and the Honeybee* mentions that wesson's salt mixture is not optimized for honeybees. Another post mentions the amount of common salt used by bees. The pieces are coming together... I did try adding cattle mineral salt mixture to syrup one year after reading an inspirational article by another beekeeper, but on sober second thought, I discontinued the practice, since I did not know what levels of what constituents might be toxic, or even how to detect subtle toxic effects if they ocurred. My one concern about the way many are providing salt is that the amount of salt required by bees seems to be somewhat narrowly defined in that too little is a problem. Too much is also a problem. By including it as an ingredient in something like syrup or pollen supplement, do we not tie the consumption of a minor item that needs to be eaten in limited amounts to essential foods that should be consumed in maximum amounts? Should salt(s) not be offered as a free choice? Somehow? I wonder. Allen "If I make a living off it, that's great--but I come from a culture where you're valued not so much by what you acquire but by what you give away," -- Larry Wall (the inventor of Perl) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:17:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: salt In-Reply-To: <199901211703.JAA22639@mx1.thegrid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:00 AM 1/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >Should salt(s) not be offered as a free choice? Somehow? Normally I think that's how it works in nature which explains maybe why in areas that are deficient in natural salt in the air, soil, or water the bees will seek it out from other sources. I did work with mineral salt blocks placed inside the hive such as is used for rabbits.. In time the blocks would disappear. The next step would be to make some flat sheets of a size that could be placed in other places in the hive besides the bottom board. Never got that far as the problem with metal in the hive stopped me dead in my tracks. I then moved to putting a big coffee can of rock salt in water drums used to water the bees here in the late summer when there is NO water for the bees and they will take down a drum in a few days. I also administrated TM in this way, and at other times added a cup of Bleach. All of these field trials were 100% successful as no bees died, but if it was effective in upgrading the health of the bees was never answered because healthy bees were used in the field tests and at the end of the tests the bees were still healthy. For sure this has not always been the case but with experience one learns to be a little conservative in what is added to the bee diets. The lesson in all of this is if you do not have a problem then why expend the time and money even if its true you can do it without toxic effects? I have seen the claims from products that can be added to sugar syrups and bee diets but never have seen the results claimed when I tested these products. I can only assume that I did not have the problem that those who promote these thing do or just lack of the proper or politically correct vision needed to see the difference. There must be some point that to seek out better bee locations is a better solution to all these micro problems then try to supplement the poor location we now have with artificial diets and chemicals. Chow, the OLd Drone http://beenet.com (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:59:58 -0700 Reply-To: fltdeck1@ix.netcom.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Bee-Harmless WeedSpray for Thistles? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All! Does anyone know a good weed-spray to use on thistles? I purchased some acreage and wish to kill off the thistles before they get a grip on the land - but I have bees on the property. There's 35 acres to spray, which is a large job for me to do by hand, but I'd rather spray the sprouts individually than loose any hives. Thanks for anyone's advice on this issue, Matthew Westall (in Castle Rock, CO) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:28:20 -0400 Reply-To: eunice.wonnacott@pei.sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Buckfast Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Musashi wrote: > > About the Texas Buckfast bees. It seems that different people have different It's nice> to be able to keep bees that have been bred by a "local" breeder where maybe> they are adapted to my area somewhat. You may have got a "bad" one, I never > have...what's the difference?--I don't know. I DO know that you CAN'T say that > all Weaver's Buckfast bees are mean and aggressive, because I KNOW they are NOT. > Just another personal experience perspective to throw into the mix while you > curse Texas bees and praise Canadian bees. Layne Westover > College Station, Texas, 36.4 deg N 96.2 deg W, 308' altitude, 38.6" mean ppt > max 106 F, min 2 F, today, a balmy 80 F, and a/c broken in my building I have personally visited Weaver's in Navasota, on a couple of occasions. The first time was while the importing of bees from the United States was thriving, and our main supply was coming from Florida, being trucked by some oof our own persons making the trip and bringing our bees to us early in April, each year. I had been asked to look into the possibility of transporting bees from further away, successfully. The next time was after the Canada - United States border had been closed due to mites. Naturally Mr. Binford Weaver, my host on that visit, was not happy about what he saw as a needless curtailment of a thriving business, from his standpoint. He treated me with great courtesy, nevertheless. I have visited Texas many times during the years a family member was resident there. I love the place, and the people I have met there. I suspect some of the disappointment and despair at the loss of these valuable contacts has crept into attitudes of some Canadian beekeepers. We are tryng to survive in an inhospitable climate, weatherwiise, and with regard to disease and mites, etc. Any time there is success, it is natural to be happy about it, and even brag a little, as I am sure you can understand. One of the things that kept me "at it" as a beekeeper after I discovered that I have a serious allergy to the stings, has always been the special fellowship between all of us. Sharing of knowledge and ideas helps us all. Let's keep it that way. Eunice Wonnacott, Prince Edward Island Beekeepers CoOperative Association Limited Charlottetown, PEI. Canada -- "From The Cradle of Confederation" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:01:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Black vs. White - Pierco Frames In-Reply-To: <916931950.1021604.0@uacsc2.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 >Wood frames, after a season or two, space the frames a touch wider than >when new, due to propolis builup. Pierco has thin contact areas to ensure >tight fit -- if the frames are crowded with a hive tool -- so this >widening effect will not likely ocur, making the tolerances more >important? Maybe Murray will comment. > I would agree fully with this. The spacing is definitely just a little bit narrower than the normal USA/Canada wooden frame, even when these are new, although it is very close to British normal. This does make the situation significantly more sensitive to defects in the spacing, hence our experience of bald patches in some cases and brace comb elsewhere. Like Allen, our wooden frames with wire and wax are not always flat and indeed we have some combs which we should be ashamed of. We now operate an annual cull, but there are always quite a few (well, OK, a lot) slip through, and should be picked up next year. We had hoped Piercos would be the answer to this as they would be perfectly flat, and culling the bad ones would just have been a scrape off and return to hive situation done with the hive tool on site. Alas it is not that simple. All current new boxes we are setting up are North American wooden frames with Plasticell or similar foundation. We like it but thought Piercos would save the assembly work. If they can sort out this bowing/warping problem it probably still will. I note that Allen uses Permadent rather than Plasticell. My thinking on using the latter is that the bees draw less drone on it, and controlling the amount of drone brood is part of our strategy for living with varroa. (Hence the comb culling, something we did not greatly bother with before.) I also had a feeling that it would be more rigid and thus warp less in extracting than Permadent, which I must add that I have never used. We have had quite a bit of Plasticell in service in Illinois depth honey supers for some years, and it is as tough as old boots, never budging during even the tangential extracting we have to use for heather honey, and you just attack it with the hive tool if you need to scrape anything off. When we did that with Piercos they often put drone back in place, but with the extended side walls in Plasticell this almost never occurs. I have decided to give the more modern Piercos of the last couple of seasons another chance this coming year, however, but Allens experience, together with that of another Canadian I have heard of this year, suffering (albeit slightly) from a problem I had been led to believe was cured, makes me a little reluctant to splash out in too much haste. Unlike most people on this list, I would have some problem returning defectives from Scotland. Hope this helps, Murray ps. Allen, they never do flatten, and possibly get a little worse. -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk