From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:25 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27367 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11139 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11139@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:18 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9908B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 119266 Lines: 2609 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 21:31:52 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: late summer laying In-Reply-To: <199908071312.JAA12737@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 7 Aug 99, at 7:38, Jim & Sue Maus wrote: > Typically the dark races of bees stop raising brood when there is very > little or no nectar flow. However Italians will keep brooding up many > times. Jim Sorry. Not true, our Italians slow down when there is a dearth, and stop completely at the first killing frost. I firmly believe that we have crossed races so often that individual racial characteristics are blurred enough to be indistinguishable. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset Magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 22:58:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: late summer laying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vivian Donahue wrote: > Neither > hive has a lot of surplus honey, but both do have lots of pollen and a > decent amount of nector. ...(snip)... I have apistan and menthol in > currently. I don't have much insight about the basic subject of this thread, but this caught my eye. The question is: Do you have supers on for the surplus honey that is there? If so, you should not be giving Apistan strips at the same time. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 22:13:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Nucs from preswarm colonies Comments: To: tvf@umich.edu In-Reply-To: <199906231545.LAA16000@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > ... when I find hives in imminent swarm condition I don't bother to > > attempt to keep the bees at home, rather, I split the hive into as > many nucs as I am able to make up using the swarm cells at hand. > > I did this too this year with a good colony that started many swarm cells... > However, after two weeks when I examined the nucs, every one of them > had torn down the swarm cells and were busily storing nectar in all available > cells. You don't say if the cells were sealed or not when you placed them, or whether you examined them for damage, or whether you determined how far from emergence they were... At two weeks from insertion to inspection, it is possible that queens were indeed in the nucs, but had not begun laying. Perhaps, if you looked at 3 in the afternoon, they were out mating at that moment. When we ran mating nucs, if memory serves me, we did not find eggs until 11 days after placing ripe cells and generally did not bother to look much before 14 days. If bad weather intervened, sometimes we would have to add 7 days to that before the queens became evident by their laying. After queens emerge, bees generally tear down the cells to the cup. So, my guess is that you gave up too early. The only thing I can see that might counterindicate this is that the bees were storing nectar in all cells, but then nucs plug easily. Although a queenright colony will normally reserve and polish cells for the queen, in a strong flow, the bees will cover even eggs with nectar. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 22:13:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Swarms issue with first sealed cell? I think not. In-Reply-To: <199906221105.HAA16171@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...I have to challange the assertion that swarms usually issue > when the first queen cell is capped. I have not found this to be so. Correct. Many times a colony will make cells and sit there until they emerge and run around in the colony and still not go out. Sometimes they will keep the cells a while, even when sealed, then tear them down again because (we guess) conditions have changed. When we find a colony with queen cells that have larvae -- and they often are sealed -- and the hive obviously has not swarmed, we just bust it in half (making sure not to destroy the cells hanging off the top box by plunking it onto a floor with too little clearance). At current honey prices, and the current prices of packages here in Canada, this is a real bonus. a new hive is worth as much as the crop increase we *might* have had by keeping the hive as one. Both halves continue to make honey, so the sacrifice is not great. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 21:31:52 -0400 Reply-To: admin@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: NORTH AND SOUTH In-Reply-To: <199908071507.LAA14263@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 7 Aug 99, at 9:47, John Partin wrote: > I would hope that good queen producers look for good stock all the time. I > would hope that good queen producers would also use AI as a very important > and nesesary tool in their operation. > If a queen procucer told me that he was not searching for good brood > stock, all the time, from the area that I keep bees in and that he was > not using AI to get this brood stock, then I do not think that I would use > his queens. > You do not know what you have if you do not use AI and you do not > know how they will perform if not tested in the area where you beekeep. What an idealist viewpoint. How many bee breeders have or even want a laboratory alongside their bee yard to perform AI. Even the most simple set up requires spotless hygiene, hardly acheivable under normal beekeeping. For example we use a setup on a regular picnic table at the end of our yard, and use the sun as our light source. Needless to say we have a very intense selection process in the selection of our Queen and Drone mothers > I still say it makes little difference where the queen is raised but > it does make a lot of difference where the genes are from and how good of > a job the queen raiser does. Here's a point I can agree with. I have advocated this for many years. You should talk to our customers in Alaska if you need verifi cation of this fact. Bees do better in the climate they're bred for. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 9 Progress Drive, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H1. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, Owner e-mail http://www.beeworks.com This months special:-Headset Magnifiers **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:55:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Mitchell Subject: help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Thom,, interesting thoughts Thom. Just the time as I am getting ready for my move to E Va... My reason for help is this. I was remembering an article I had read some time ago....not sure where though.... The article was concerning migrant beekeepers moving their bees to the north and upon reaching thier destination the owners killed the majority of bees,,,to avoid feeding over winter. There may have been other reasons but this is the one that has been jogged loose today.....If there is anyone here whom caan help I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Scott Mitchell smitch@totalaccess.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 08:53:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: NORTH AND SOUTH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It makes no difference whether you use Artificial or Natural insemination. If the sperm comes from the same drone, the DNA remains the same. My point is that while the queen is a fine queen and her offspring may be outstanding, there a is more to selection than simply surviving and producing honey. It is the manner by which these occur which is the deciding factor. Let's draw a different example so that we step away from any sensitive topics. I have a fine home and I am sure the distinguished beekeeper from Ontario also has a fine home. The characteristics these homes would be designed for might be: Keeps the family cool in the summer and warm in the winter. It is safe, dry secure and comfortable, pleasing to the eye. That said and agreed both houses function perfectly in most respects, they go about it in different ways. His house is fine and functional, placed in coastal Virginia would be difficult, his basement would flood and need to be filled in, it would probably be hot in the summer as the A/C unit would be inadequate and he would need city water vice a well (assuming he had one). My house from coastal Virginia, placed on his site, would be freezing in the winter, have problems with ice dams on the roof and could not exist on its slab foundation due to the earth heaving as it freezes and thaws. Two fine houses, designed for the situations that arise in the local area, yet not quite right for transport somewhere else. They work as shelter, simply would need a few touches here and there we're in business. Of course, the differences will not be as dramatic with queens but this example illustrates the point. It'll survive and do just fine but perhaps one designed by a local architect will do better. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA Tom Elliott wrote: > > In other words if you continue to buy your queen mothers from the North > each year, you are okay. If you begin to use daughter queens for > raising queens you will allow suvival of queens which would never make > it in the north. Of course if you are doing AI forever it makes no > difference (assuming you use proper drones). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 22:11:49 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Bee Kill. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob Fanning wrote: >I have a strange bee kill that seems to be affecting mostly young bees. I >suspect it to be heat related... >I have the hives well ventilated. I suspect this may be adding to my >problem as the bees can not adequately drop the temperature of circulating >100 + degree air. > You don't mention how far the bees have to go to a source of water for hive cooling. Given access to plentiful supplies, bees are very effective in reducing internal hive temperature. I think you are right in suspecting the ventilation. I believe there is much greater control possible if the bees have one entrance where they can direct an inward flow and an outward flow through the same space. We have similar temperatures during summer in Australia - I would always look to adequate good quality water as the first remedy. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Fanning Subject: Re: Bee Kill. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Betty Mc Adams wrote: >You don't mention how far the bees have to go to a source of water for hive >cooling. The bees are on an irrigated cotton field. The irrigation system was off (for repair) for three days, ending three days prior to the kill (which could be a factor), however other than the three days the system was on the entire time span that the problem occurred. The irrigation water is from a creek about 1000 yards from my bees. The bees are part of a cross pollination study with a local university and we have other bees (from other beekeepers involved). One of which has a solar powered ventilating system. I suspected he would have a really bad kill however the irrigation system was positioned at the time such that his kill would have washed away. There is no direct "water on the hives" but a good "run-off" stream. I will ask the ventilated beekeeper to judge relative colony strength when he is available and mud permits. It is difficult to compare other hives due to the flushing effect of the "run-off". My bees get no "run off". Other bees with no "run-off" had the same kill that I did. Since this is a university supervised study with anxious support from the farmer, excellent chemical application information is available. No chemicals were applied. The same farmer farms all other crops within typical flying distance thus other agricultural chemical applications are unlikely. Thanks for your input. Bob Fanning Huntsville, AL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 08:05:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Splits, Supercedure queens In-Reply-To: <199907270540.BAA15128@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...I have several times removed a queen and, since I read that bees when > rearing emergency queens will use older larvae, I have gone back in > after 4 days and removed all capped cells. Then no larvae over 24 hours > old has a chance. I always find capped cells on the 4th day. This > suggests that larvae older than 24 hours were used... Thanks for your observations. Facts help. As you know, this has been a topic of interest here for quite a while, and it is of considerable interest and economic importance to many of us and I appreciate all the opinions, particularly those which challenge me and my assumptions. Such challenges make me think and in the process, I learn. With the price of honey down and the cost of queens up, and the reports of massive losses of purchased queens on introduction, the matter of quality home raised queens is of huge importance. beekeepers are having to make compromises. We need to know which compromises are wise and reasonable, and which could be costly. Queens raised in the hive have a good chance of acceptance and at a conservative cost of about $25 per purchased queen (including the cost of the labour and risk of loss), each such expensive investment must guarantee tangible payback in terms of better production, better wintering or some other reward. If honey is the goal, at current prices, each new purchased queen that is successful must return about 60 to 70 pounds more than an alternative (free) queen to pay us back. (When you consider that there is a cost (~$0.10 per pound?) to extracting and barrelling the honey, we can't ascribe the $0.50 market value to honey in the hive). As I see it, there are several aspects to the question of breaking down sealed emergency cells on the fourth day after dequeening. * The first is exactly *when* the bees cap queen cells, and if all bees cap them all at the same point, or if there is some variability. I submit there is. * Another is whether 24 hour old larvae are *that* much better than 36 hour the larvae that are acceptable by some authors (or the 48 hour larvae that Steve Tabor suggests the bees choose). I submit that in many cases the difference will not be detectable in the field. Joe recently passed on a chart (thank you) that showed that swarm and supercedure cells (started from eggs) should be best, followed by grafted and emergency queens (started from 24 hour larvae). These latter two types apparently decline in quality from the ideal by about 10% by 24 hours, and 15% to 20%, if a larva is 48 hours old at time it is chosen for queen building. At least that appeared to be the case in the tests that resulted in the chart. FWIW, I suspect that the results may have been tidied up a bit. Having done some lab work myself and having done some field experiments, I know that it is very seldom that the results are clear cut and that all extraneous influences can be entirely discounted. Moreover there may be quite a bit of scatter in the results which does not show in the tabulations which are necessarily averaged. But I digress... I recently wrote regarding the chart in 'Contemporary Queen Rearing'. After I did so, being the doubter that I am, I wondered if I was, perhaps using a typo to prove my case; the spacing did not seem the same as in the charts to either side and I wondered if a carriage return/line feed had been missed. If that were the case, then the 'sealing' should be further down the page a bit, putting it down the page into the next day -- a bit at least. At any rate, I pulled out my books -- again -- and took another look. * Spivak & Reuter (Successful Queen Rearing) say "When the larva is 5-6 days old (or 4-5 days after grafting) the cell is fully formed and will be sealed by the worker bees". This was using 24 hour larvae. * Laidlaw & Page (Queen rearing & Bee Breeding) deal with the development of queen cells on page 82. There are pictures and things are very clear. The only question that is left open -- assuming that the pictures are correct and that they were taken at precisely 24 hour intervals -- is the exact age of the larva grafted. In that regard, I could only find only one reference accompanying a picture on page 60, stating that the larvae shown are the correct age for grafting at "about one day old". Figure 55 shows "Queen cells three days following grafting". They are not capped at this point. This would equate to three days after dequeening if the bees chose 24 hour larvae, as Laidlaw did. The cells look pretty close to ready to cap. Figure 56 shows "Cells sealed on the fourth day following grafting". They are well capped in the picture, although the one on the left does not appear to be, for some reason. This would equate to the fourth day after dequeening, again if the bees chose 24 hour larvae, as Laidlaw did. This is when you would be going to break down the cells... There are assumptions in the above argument, and they mmust be examined. One is that the bees raise cells the instant that the queen is gone, but we know that it takes at least several hours for them to get their act together. I have heard 5 or so is typical. I have seen it take much longer... The conclusion I reach -- assuming scrupulous attention to timing of the grafting and photos -- is that if you went back exactly four days after dequeening, and knocked down all sealed cells, you could well be killing cells raised from 24 hour larvae. That is not to say that you would not be knocking down older ones. However, the whole premise to the 'knock the sealed cells at four days' approach is that bees raise emergency cells from larvae of varying ages. I wonder. Emergency cells in my recollection are usually in one particular area of the comb, and thus should encompass larvae of roughly the same age. If you destroy their cells will they build differently the next time? Are any that are uncapped on the fourth day from younger larvae, or just started later? allen For those who asked: If I could buy only one queen rearing book, which would I choose? Today, it would probably be Laidlaw & Page's "Queen rearing & Bee Breeding". Tomorrow, my answer might be different. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:26:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That was an old practice that is not commonly practiced any more. It was an economic decision based on cost. It was feasible to kill the bees, remove all the honey and purchase new packages in the Spring. With the higher cost of packages and shipping, lower return on honey and availability of southern over wintering fields (FLA), it became more expensive to kill rather than keep. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA Scott Mitchell wrote: > The article was concerning migrant beekeepers moving their bees to the > north and upon reaching thier destination the owners killed the majority of > bees,,,to avoid feeding over winter. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 09:48:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Partin Subject: Re: NORTH AND SOUTH In-Reply-To: Thom Bradley 's message of Sun, 8 Aug 1999 08:53:14 -0400 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) THOM BRADLEY; ARCHITECTS I am glad to see you respond. You have very good opinions write real well. If I hire your achitect and get him to draw up a set of house plans for your area and take those house plans to Ga. and hire the best builders I can find and and get them to build the house in GA. put the house on a truck and ship it back to your area the house should do very well their I would think. BUD ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 15:11:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: What do you think of our entertainment on a 100-degree Saturday? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Slide Show: http://www.pollinator.com/wildhive/ Dave Green Hemingway, SC The Pollination Home Page http://www.pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:04:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarms issue with first sealed cell? I think not. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/8/99 7:27:45 AM EST, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: > > When we find a colony with queen cells that have larvae -- and they often > are > sealed -- and the hive obviously has not swarmed, we just bust it in half > (making sure not to destroy the cells hanging off the top box by plunking it > onto a floor with too little clearance). > When I make nuc boxes I make them deeper than the frames by an inch for this reason. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:16:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan B Tremblay Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 6 Aug 1999 to 7 Aug 1999 (#1999-135) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to John Mitchell's comments on 08/04 re: Mite Population drop, I too am seeing reduced mite levels here in south central New York. Odd, considering the mite populations appeared to be on an accelerated curve prior to the drought. I've just begun to start sampling/summer treating and I'm just not seeing many mites so far. Also noted that brood stages are older capped and eggs. Almost no larve at all. Wondering if the silver lining to the current drought might be mite die off. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:51:13 -0500 Reply-To: boby@lakecountry.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Young Subject: Re: Bee Kill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have noticed small die offs in front of several of my hives lately; these I believe were caused by attempted robbing having witnessed one such attack in progress. I keep my hives in direct sunlight(with the covers down during nectar dearth to prevent robbing). I have water close by (100yds). This is during periods of 100deg. F weather and the bees have no problems. During the hottest part of the day they hang on the front in a beard and go back in at night. It would stand to reason that if they keep the brood nest at 92 deg. F, 100deg. would be a minor escalation. I would also request of everyone to at least put the region of the world they are in when posting. It is impossible to evaluate a situation and not know what the weather is where the problem is occuring. Bob Young Lindale,TX ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 18:27:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: NORTH AND SOUTH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Partin wrote: > > > If I hire your achitect and get him to draw up a set of house plans > for your area build the house in GA.ship it back to your area the house should do very > well their I would think. Um, yes. I suddenly get the impression I have missed a detail somewhere and we are spending alot of time on the same side of an issue. Taking this back to bees, A colony that does very well in situation "A" should be able to goto point "B" to reproduce. We are using the same DNA to create the new queens/colony. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 22:01:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Open Mesh Floors - how does it effect the control of other hi... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/7/99 8:14:32 AM, FAITHAB@aol.com writes: <> The bees will clean the bottom board, being the hygenic little creatures they are. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 02:57:23 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Organization: Bay of Plenty Polytechnic Subject: Re: NORTH AND SOUTH > > If I hire your achitect and get him to draw up a set of house plans > > for your area build the house in GA.ship it back to your area the house should do very > > well their I would think. Here's a related story I posted to BEE-L in Dec 1996. It isn't *directly* related - I think the moral from the above exchange is that genetics has a big role to play, regardless of where a queen is reared. But given time, bees in a location will adapt to that location and its timing issues...: I remember once hearing/reading about hives with 'local' (read: bees bred in the areas) that were moved to new locations. My memory of it was a French location that had a boomer of a dandilion honey flow early in the spring, but little main crop or autumn flows. The other site was a (Scottish?) heather site, where there was no flow of any sort until the calluna flowered in late autumn. The bees in their 'home' locations had population build ups to suit - the French bees brooding up very early, the heather bees remaining as a small colony through the spring and summer, but with main brood rearing late in the season. The story went that swapping the hives to the other location caused havoc for both sets of hives. One lot didn't build up in time to get the dandilion flow. The other built up in the spring when there was nothing there for them and then collapsed before the heather finally appeared. The 'punchline' was that it took the colonies 3 to 5 generations before the 'smarts' were instilled in their genes to allow them an appropriate broodrearing strategy for the local conditions. NOTE: This is a good story only, and I've quoted it often, but I can't for the life of me remember where it came from, or the credence that could be given to it!! (\ Nick Wallingford {|||8- home nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (/ work nick.wallingford@boppoly.ac.nz NZ Beekeeping http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 00:07:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HStarJE@AOL.COM Subject: Heat and Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Are there any studies or research to indicate a > correlation between hot seasons and diminishing varroa population On a remotely related note, I have recently visited beekeepers in the New Independant States of the former Soviet Union. Some of them use a heat chamber that contains a rotating caged drum screen. A whole hive of bees is dumped in and rolled around inside the drum to shed the mites. This method seems complex, labor intensive and stressful to the bees. But I wonder if it is effective in eliminating the mites. Does anyone have any information on this system? I have never seen any thing written about it here in the USA. Cesar Flores Colorado ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:18:34 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: transluscent figerglass beehives Dear Bee Listers, I am working on a fiberglass beehive for use in our hot and wet tropical climate. It promises to have many advantages. No repainting, wood rot, termite damage. Lightweight. Good thermal properties. Standard, because it will use one mold. It rained 650 cms. in three days last week and the inside of my prototype remained dry. Venting is controlled by screened holes and sliders. I am trying to get it rigid enough to be stacked two doubles high for moving. It also has a built in travelling screen for long hauls. Question: Do I have to make it totally opaque? This will be expensive. Can bees do well in a transluscent beehive? Joel F. Magsaysay Cavite Highlands, Philippines ilogmria@cav.pworld.net.ph 063-46-865-0018 063-912-318-7517 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 06:56:46 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: BEE-L Guidelines, monthly reminder In-Reply-To: <990623.073425.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Guideline for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that in- clude the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. 2. Submit your posts as TEXT ONLY! There are many sub- scribers whose mailers will not interpret text markup languages and to them submissions which include markup characters (such as HTML) appear as gibberish. Sub- missions to BEE-L must be in the lowest common denomina- tor for all subscribers, which is TEXT ONLY! Posts submitted to BEE-L in markup languages will be rejected without notice. 3. Binary file attachments are not allowed on BEE-L. Simi- lar to markup languages, many subscribers have mailers not able to decipher binary file attachments (such as MS Word attachments). Submissions with binary attachments are never approved by the list moderators, most times without notice. Suggestions for binary attachments in- clude deciphering them at your end to include in the text of your submission or making them available at your site and advertising their availability on BEE-L. Please verify your URLs. If detected, submissions with invalid or nonexistant URLs will not be approved, possi- bly without notice. 4. Do not send personal responses to the entire list. If Bea Keepr posts something to the list that inspires you to write to Bea, DO NOT send your personal response to BEE-L, send it to Bea! Only send to the list that which you want read by everyone. Submissions to the list that appear to be personal responses are rarely approved by the list moderators, often without notice. 5. Trolling (name calling, baiting, incivility) is not tol- erated. Heated discussions are allowed, after all we're beekeepers and may not always agree. But as Rodney King put it, "Can't we all just get along?" This is a grey area up to the discretion of the moderators, but offend- ing submissions will be rejected without notice. 6. Do not send LISTSERV service requests to the list. 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Submissions to BEE-L should not contain misinformation. Although slow to admit it, the moderators do not know it all. However, blatant misinformation is rejected with- out notice. Realizing there is a fine line between new, thought provoking ideas and misinformation the modera- tors strive for leniency in their judgment and prefer to err on the side of thought provoking ideas. Reader be- ware that if you read it here it ain't necessarily so! 9. BEE-L is not a marketplace. Product reviews are wel- come. Product announcements are tolerated. Repeated announcements and marketing are less welcome proportion- ately to their frequency. Advertisements may be re- jected without notice. 10. Lastly, long signature files are discouraged. A guide- line of five lines is suggested. Life histories and driving directions to your doorstep or place of business are strongly discouraged and are often rejected without notice. The BEE-L moderators and subscribers thank you in advance for adhering to these guidelines. We hope you find your BEE-L experience informative, engaging, educational and most importantly, fun! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:37:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thomas W Hoyt Subject: Small Extractor - For Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have an extra small extractor that I would like to part with. I use an extractor just like it for my own honey. It is a two frame (any size) hand operated extractor. Got a crank on the top that turns the baskets. It was originally sold by Sears. Stainless tank. Honey gate at the bottom. It is located in central Illinois. How about I open the "bidding" at $100 plus the shipping costs. (It's pretty light. Shouldn't cost much to ship it.) Best offer gets it. Be certain to leave the Subj. Line as it is so that I notice the note. If you need any other info you can send it to me offlist at: thoswhoyt@juno.com I use an extractor just like it for my own honey. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 17:36:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: NORTH AND SOUTH In-Reply-To: <199908082033.QAA07452@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:48 AM 8/8/99 -0400, you wrote: >THOM BRADLEY; ARCHITECTS > I am glad to see you respond. You have very good opinions write real >well. > If I hire your achitect and get him to draw up a set of house plans >for your area and take those house plans to Ga. and hire the best >builders I can find and and get them to build the house in GA. put the >house on a truck and ship it back to your area the house should do very >well their I would think. >BUD Sure, if I take some fine Florida Queens up to Canada and use them to breed new queens in the short season available to me, I can take the offspring back to Florida and they will do just fine. However, most of the queens I leave in Canada will not shut down brood fast enough once winter arrives and the hives will be in trouble. Many of the races of bees we use are from a more "south" than "north" climate and need to be selected for doing well in the "north" Too be sure, where I raised them made no difference, in this case. Of course if you are going to need queens in say November you had better be in South Florida! But I do not know of (m)any queen breeders that are migratory so getting bees from a good quality breeder in your area is going to be a safe bet. Having said all of this, since winter is not as much of a problem in the South I would not have a problem with a good quality queen from Canada at all, Italian that is. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 06:50:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: NORTH AND SOUTH In-Reply-To: <199908090303.XAA15343@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The 'punchline' was that it took the colonies 3 to 5 generations > before the 'smarts' were instilled in their genes to allow them an > appropriate broodrearing strategy for the local conditions. Well, I know I'll get some looks for this, but I'm used to it, and here goes: We humans have something called culture that is passed on from generation to generation and has a huge effect on behaviour, yet we do not attribute this -- or anything like it -- to the multiplicity of other beings with which we share a common origin. Sometimes we will not even grant recognition of culture to some of our fellow humans. I have never been able to figure out why not. The evidence is not at all occult. I've watched cats teach one another things that might be considered to be passed down from one generation to another, dogs too. We know migratory animals and birds teach one another age old patterns. Experience in humans is related from generation to generation by many diverse means. >From earliest human times stories, songs, dances, collections of symbols, and elaborate structures have been built to explain and demonstrate when seasonal events could be expected to occur. The understanding of any of these clues and prompts is not simple and must be learned. Granted, much knowledge of a general sort is encoded into our genes, but much essential information that is less long term is handled in more volatile and mutable forms of storage, not hardwired into our form. Allen Latham postulated the existence of 'control bees' in a hive, bees which somehow acted as the guardians of the accumulated knowledge of that hive. I am not aware of how he felt the knowledge was stored -- or promulgated. AFAIK, no one has ever been able to prove or discredit his beliefs, so I think we are free to use them if we wish, and anyone pooh-poohing the ideas has the burden of proof. This is indeed a marvellous world in which we live, and new miracles are revealed daily. We have no way to know what *may* be encoded into hive structures or even -- in novel forms -- into the body structures of bees themselves, even outside of genetic inheritance. An amazing amount of information can be encoded into physical or electrical arrangements of even a small number of particles. Consider this: if you were to have handed an intelligent and educated human a simple device like a 8086 processor, or even a simple transistor, 200 years ago, would he -- using all the knowledge and facilities available at the time -- have been able to puzzle out its meaning, purpose or significance? I doubt it. Why, then, do we think we can discount a possible innate bee 'technology' or culture with the almost negligible bit of effort we have put to the task? What, gives us reason to believe that we have the faintest idea about how the society of bees *really* functions or how they store information and understand? Sure, we have a grasp of the grossest features and mass phenomena of their society and can manipulate them a bit (rather poorly from what I read on these lists), but we have not the slightest idea of passes for thought or experience for a bee -- or even if such analogies are apt. Wise and observant old practical beekeepers -- as long as I have listened to them -- have ascribed an acclimatisation ability to honey bee populations that is far too swift to be explained by genetic selection. Why not simply explain it as learning? allen (Thinking about a razor). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:06:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pollinator@AOL.COM Subject: Re: transluscent figerglass beehives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/9/99 9:06:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ilogmria@CAV.PWORLD.NET.PH writes: << Question: Do I have to make it totally opaque? This will be expensive. Can bees do well in a transluscent beehive? >> Wouldn't you have a "greenhouse effect?" Cooked bees? The inside of my car, on a 100 degree (F) day, is hot enough to burn your hands on the steering wheel. I would guess 140, or more. My solution, as much as possible, is to park it in the shade and leave the windows cracked. But bees can't move their home around to follow shade. A wooden box is too hot in full sun, here in South Carolina. On a hive with windows.......? I've noticed, in transporting our observation hive, that the bees get *real* excited fast, if the sun is allowed to shine on the glass. I suspect the temperature goes up within minutes, and if I didn't take action, would quickly kill the bees. Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles): http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:07:54 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Re: question on reqeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Dennis, Requeening this time of year is tricky. You did not say if you did this on a nectar flow or, if there is no flow, did you provide one via 1:1 syrup feed? The invading colony goes on top. That is the best way to think of it rather than older or youger. In the Fall, (august), the best way to requeen is via a nuc like you did. In a planned scenario, it is best to aquire the new queen early, like a month early. Then kill the old queen leave this hive queenless for at least 24 hours. Meanwhile back at the nuc. Re cage the new queen, jam up the end of the cage with candy. (I have been eager to try the thin style intro cage which gives the queen more access to more bees. Try this if you like. This makes more sense in the Fall when requeening is difficult than in the Spring when almost anything goes.) Place the queen back inside the nuc, feed the old colony on the bottom. Place the nuc on top with as sheet of slit news paper between them. You have done all you can at this point. Keep the feed going for 10 days. I will be combining hives this week. I will use the re caging technique, along with feeding. There is realy no difference in using an nuc or combining the colonies. BTW the longer the bees remain queenless, the harder it will be to give them one. There comes a time when you must decide to distribute the assets of the queenless hive to the nuc, or other hives. If you have only one or two hives, then by all means re cage the queen and distribute the honey, and pollen to them. With no brood in it, I believe that time is now. After distributing the goodies, take the old body away. The field bees will find themselves a new home, and with the queens being caged, they will not kill them. In a few days the queens will be released by the bees and you will have saved what you could. There is no reason to take anything but a robust hive into winter. Grist Mill Apiary Ernie Gregoire Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 08/09/99 10:07:54 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:14:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: transluscent figerglass beehives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I build cold frames using fiberglass as lids because, even though translucent, it transmits light in most of its frequencies to the plants, so my guess is you are building a bee cooker more than a bee hive if it is translucent. Bill T Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:11:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Queen Rearing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I have recently come across the following headings used by a Queen Breeder to assess his queens for breeding purposes. 1. Docility (non Jumping, Non Stinging, Non Following) 2. Steadiness On Comb (Absence Of Running) 3. Brood Pattern (Compactness Of Brood, Absence Of Empty Cells) 4. Pollen Storage (Pollen Packed Over, Around And Under The Broodnest) 5. Comb Building (Speed In Occupying Supers, Drawing Foundation, Honey Storage And Quality Of Comb Capping) Each heading is given a rating of 0 to 5. Strangely enough there is nothing in the list about foraging ability. I wish to improve the standard of my bees, and to this end I intend to use the above rating system next year, or any improvement on it suggested by the list members. Having gathered the information, I would imagine, that to turn it into useful data for Queen Rearing, I would need to know which of the above traits come from the Queen and which come from the Drone. I seem to remember reading somewhere that docility comes from the drone. If that be the case, then as far as docility is concerned, I should build up the drone population of the docile hives, and rear the queens from a hive or hives having the traits I require which are passed on via the queen. Now I come to my list of questions!. 1. Is it possible to place either 'queen' or 'drone' to specify the source of the trait, beside each of the 5 headings listed above?. 2. And from which side of the equation does foraging ability come?. 3. Are any of the traits obtained from both parents or is there an element of chance in which side supplies a trait?. 4. And if there is an element of chance, how can I stack the deck as much in my favour as possible?. 5. Does this scenario admit of such categorisation, or is it far from being that simple?. 6. Can any study material (presumably on genetics as applied to honeybees), be recommended, so that I can put the long winter evenings to good beekeeping use?. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 99 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:52:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: North and South Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All On the face of it, if a bee cannot negotiate her way back into a super via a Canadian bee escape at say 9.00 am and can do so readily at say 9.00pm having presumably made unsuccessful attempts in between times, surely it is undeniable that what the bee can do at 9.00pm represents an 'improvement' on what she could do at 9.00am. If it were a human being doing it we would ascribe the term 'learning' to it. If a rat learns to work its way through a maze do we not put that down to intelligence?. Why then can we not ascribe intelligence to the bee? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 99 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:52:24 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Queen Rearing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tom Barrett writes: >I have recently come across the following headings used by a Queen Breeder >to assess his queens for breeding purposes. > >1. Docility (non Jumping, Non Stinging, Non Following) >2. Steadiness On Comb (Absence Of Running) >3. Brood Pattern (Compactness Of Brood, Absence Of Empty Cells) >4. Pollen Storage (Pollen Packed Over, Around And Under The Broodnest) >5. Comb Building (Speed In Occupying Supers, Drawing Foundation, Honey >Storage And Quality Of Comb Capping) > >Each heading is given a rating of 0 to 5. > >Strangely enough there is nothing in the list about foraging ability. > Presumably the breeder queens have been selected from the production hives on the basis of the honey produced. The assessment is then based on additional factors. I would tend to rate the first 3 factors as more relevant than the final 2. After some years of queen breeding, I understand (not having reached this stage myself) that it becomes difficult to distinguish the best and points 4 and 5 may then be worth taking into consideration INMHO. Betty McAdam. HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam From: Baxter Yazbek Subject: Re: Queen Rearing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii <<>>> here in the middle east, our first criteria is varroa resistance or "tolerance"! thru behaviour like cleaning of cells,... another criteria would be drought resistance. but varroa mites tolerance is essential for breeding queens. -- ------------------------------------------------ Baxter YazBek (Dipl.Ing.) http://YazBek.com ! Discount Beekeeping store. http://YazBek.com/AraBee ! Beekeeping in Arabia. -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:18:07 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: late summer laying & double wide hive body Comments: cc: BEE-LMOD@listserv.albany.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by vdonahue@earthlink.net to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quotes of previously posted material. > Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:34:23 -0400 > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > From: Vivian Donahue > Subject: late summer laying & double wide hive body > > Thanks for all the great responses. I'm in NothernVirginia, and by hot, I > mean mostly in the 90s. I was thinking of feeding them anyway so I will take > the advice and put some syrup on. As for their crankiness, it just seems more > than what I would normally expect. I will requeen this fall, as recommended > by the list, since I think it would make it a better natured hive (hopefully). > Unfortunately, shade is the only location on my lot that I have for them. > It is not heavy shade, and they do get some spotty sun. In the winter, they > get full sun. > > And don't worry, I would never use honey that was produced while apistan or > menthol was on. I have bees crawling around on the ground so I am sure they > need the menthol right now. I don't do commercial production anyway. I'm > just a hobbiest and I give all my excess (when I have it) to friends and > family and neighbors. By surplus, I really meant that there seems to be full > honey in all the corners of all the brood comb as well as plenty of pollen, > and nector in the super I leave on top of each brood body of each hive. I > have already removed the honey I will take for this year. We do sometimes have > a fall flow, but it is not worth taking medications off for, and with this > drought, I seriously doubt that it will be adequate for them to winter over > on. I didn't get nearly the surplus I thought I would from this spring. > > Now, any recommendations for someone like me who has hardly ever been able to > find the queen? I know to look for her on all the frames where there are > young eggs, but there just has to be some other trick to it. I like the idea > of first doing a nuc, then recombining them, and may resort to that, but I > sure would like to improve my ability to find the queen. > > Also, I read with interest several of the posts about the one story double > hive body, and I just love this idea. Does anybody know where I can purchase > one, and the various equipment I would need for it (covers, bottom board, > landing platform, one of the wire mesh bottoms for varroa control, etc.)? > Please don't tell me how easy it is to build, because I was never allowed to > take shop. ;-) I would really love to try one, since lifting hive bodys is > not easy, even though I am stronger than the average woman. > > Vivian ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:12:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: North and South In-Reply-To: <199908101110.HAA19253@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by mslava@HOTMAIL.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quotes of previously posted material. > ----------------- Original message (ID=394C5675) (54 lines) > From: "Stanislav Moukhtarov" > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: Re: North and South > Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 18:19:33 PDT > > Hi All > Does enybody know if there is a way to buy Russian BeeQueens > Thanks > stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:36:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Queen Rearing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Betty and All: >>5. Comb Building (Speed In Occupying Supers, Drawing Foundation, Honey >>Storage And Quality Of Comb Capping) >I would tend to rate the first 3 factors as more >relevant than the final 2. After some years of queen breeding, I understand >(not having reached this stage myself) that it becomes difficult to >distinguish the best and points 4 and 5 may then be worth taking into >consideration INMHO. This season I put out almost 20,000 new frames with plastic (permadent) foundation. Early on in the season (when we usually have our best honeyflow but didn't), I tried a few boxes unbaited, and most I baited with a single drawn frame brought up from below. No queen exluders. I was quite surprised with how variable this trait (comb building) is. Some hives would go right up into an unbaited box, and some in the same yard, and apparently of equivalent strength (sometimes another package) would just seem to hate to draw comb. If the box was baited they might only fill the drawn frame. They would bring lots of nectar in and completely plug their brood boxes, but they just did not seem to want to draw comb. A few even swarmed, despite young queens and lots of space (but space that needed drawing). I think that this year it was a rather significant genetic trait for me. I do realize that it is unusual for beekeepers here to have to draw half their comb in a single year. But some European beekeepers have posted to the list that they replace a large percentage of their comb annually. Regards, Stan, thinking it certainly pays to bait the box ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:20:58 +0100 Reply-To: alan.riach@which.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Queen Traits - Comb drawing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ref. Stan Sandlers experience with plastic foundation - we have found that there is always some resistance to drawing out plastic and the resistance is variable. Some hives will draw it OK in a heavy honey flow but occasionally we've had hives that even in a heavy flow started their own parallel foundation along side the plastic- maybe there is two comb drawing traits --1/ drawing out from wax foundation and 2/ drawing out from plastic. Alan Riach - Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:23:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bernie Duggan Subject: Bee behaviour during eclipse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I intend to be in the vicinity of my bees during tomorrow's eclipse. I will post observations tomorrow (later today!) I would welcome similar observations from other countries experiencing the eclipse. Regards to you all and thanks for a great list! Bernie Duggan White Rock Ogwell Cross Denbury Devon UK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:00:10 -0400 Reply-To: Al Needham Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Bee ID MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone around Colorado, USA have any idea what these bees are (e-mail to me via my web site)? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I HAVE SOME BEES THAT DON'T LOOK LIKE REGULAR BEES, THESE ONES LOOK LIKE A BUMBLEBEE BUT ARE ONLY A THIRD OF THE SIZE, THEIR YELLOW AND HARRY, WITH BLACK LEGS, HAVE STINGERS, NOT AGGRESSIVE, WITH A BROWN ORANGE STRIPE ACROSS THEIR REARS.APP. SIZE IS ONE HALF INCH LONG AND THREE EIGHT'S INCH WIDE, WITH CLEAR BLACK WINGS. I LIVE NEAR DENVER COLORADO U.S.A . WHERE CAN I FIND PICTURES ON THE WEB OF BEES OR CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IAM DEALING WITH? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Al Needham Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:36:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: North and South Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tom Barrett wrote: > If a rat learns to work its way through a >maze do we not put that down to intelligence?. Why then can we not ascribe >intelligence to the bee? FWIW, I think that "intelligence" is a much more complicated matter than "learning". But bees can successfully learn to navigate mazes, and the rate at which they learn to navigate them is only six times longer than the rate at which rats learn the same maze (with honey rather than cheese as the reward most likely :). This is a rather remarkable feat for an animal with a brain that only has one million neurons. The rat's brain is over a thousand times heavier. As to Allen's comments on "cultural" storage of information: I have read of only a few instances where this has been actually documented by behavioural studies. I think almost all of them were in primates, although I believe that there may have been one example of a bird doing this. Although when it comes to the abilities of bees it seems prudent to keep an open mind, it also seems a stretch to suggest cultural transmission of information from ONE HIVE to ANOTHER HIVE. And that is what would be necessary for southern bees to learn from northern bees. I get hundreds of queens from subtropical Australia and New Zealand, and they seem to do not too bad here in Canada. I know I have better overwintering with my own queens after several winters of selecting for "survivors", but not by a huge margin. Mind you, we haven't had a really severe winter for awhile now. Regards, Stan 47 North in PEI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:34:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: PESTICIDES-what can we do? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello World, It appears to me that there are more and more problems associated with pesticides when allied to bee damage. What can we as a globally connected group do? Regarding the activities of pesticides/herbicides, 1.What is the global loss to beekeepers in revenue( honey, other bee products). 2.What is the global loss to beekeepers when having to replace hives, frames etc. 3.What is the global loss in the Agricultural domain from the pre mentioned losses? These questions may be/ may not be calculated- but what is sure is that there is a great loss and inconvenience to both sides. What are the factors in place that should ensure that problems do not occur? It appears to me that Agricultural/ Chemical/ Governmental organisations are not really aware of the consequences of bee loss, or they don't care! - when the actualities are looked at. BUT at the same time such bodies publicly state that they DO care.The difference between what is stated and what is actually happening is worlds apart. WHY? To me it seems that the controls and controlling agencies are not strong enough. If they are not strong enough or not following the regulations- who's fault? I suggest that pesticides/Herbicides that are put foreword for commercial use must in the future have undergo tests(wether or not they are liable to come into direct or indirect contact with bees, as this one of the loopholes used by producers of substances to get out of testing product toxicity on bees) The tests must be undertaken by wholly independent laboratories and their results submitted to a global commission who with the aid of 5 sub-committees( covering the 5 continents). This commission would then recommend or not on the use of the proposed product. It would then be easy to see if National governments are representing the people who put them in place, or if that are bending to the lobby power of the inter-national companies. PIPE DREAMING OR POSSIBILITY? Any thoughts on how to advance with this problem are welcome Peter. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:56:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Hummingbirds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Bee-l's, The Mini Page in my Sunday newspaper was dedicated to the hummingbird. = There were a couple of interesting things that pertained to bees. One is that hummingbirds are attracted to red. So that means probably = that their color vision is close to ours. Where as bees do not see red. = This leaves the red flowers for the hummingbirds. It also said never to feed honey to hummingbirds because it causes their = tongues to swell and then the bird can't eat. Has anyone ever heard of = that before?? Billy Bee=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:42:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Saguache Cty. Public Health/WIC" Comments: To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Had a question for you regarding bees, hope you can help me. Recently a colony of bees has moved into our back yard & is living underground. I have small children & am worried that they may get stung or hurt & am wondering how to get them to move or how to get rid of them. I know bees are your business & I hope I do not offend you by asking how to get rid of them but my children are my 1st priorty and I do not want them to have worry about where they play in their own yard. If you can give me some suggestions on how to get them out I would be very grateful. Please reply. Sincerely, Rose Espinoza ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:56:35 +1200 Reply-To: "bryan@honeynz.co.nz" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bryan Clements Organization: Waikato Honey Products Ltd. Subject: Re: PESTICIDES & SURFACTANTS KILL BEES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote Hello World, It appears to me that there are more and more problems associated with pesticides when allied to bee damage. What can we as a globally connected group do? A report was commissioned by the National Beekeepers Association of New Zealand after beekeepers suspected that the surfactant or wetting , soapy agent added to sprays was killing bees. The work was done by Dr RM Goodwin and HM McBrydie in June 1999. It was the EFFECT OF SURFACTANTS USED WITH FUNGICIDES, HERBICIDES AND INSECTICIDES ON HONEY BEE MORTALITY. My interpretation of the report is that all surfactants kill bee. Boost and Pulse were the worst with Ethokem and Boost having oral toxicity. So spraying at night is not safe. Many killed at 10% of the manufactures recommended concentration. Because surfactants are cheap to buy, growers don't measure accurately. EG if a little works more must be better. This attitude means an even better kill of bees. Regards Bryan Clements bryan@honeynz.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:00:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/11/99 2:07:29 PM EST, scphdns@WWW.FONE.NET writes: > Recently a > colony of bees has moved into our back yard & is living underground. Yellow jackets most likely One bucket of water and a cup of dish soap poured down the hole should do them in. Do it after dark. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 06:59:56 +0000 Reply-To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Weinert Subject: Visiting Kansas city area and Columbus MI Comments: To: bee-l@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Are there any bee type attractions in these areas. I am passing through on a tour that is looking at co-operatives. (New generation) tht are in the US, We are travelling from minneapolis to South ?Dakota to Kansan city and then Columbus. We are Leaving on Fiday Morning. (US Time) Any tips welclome. Andrew Weinert Business Developent Manager (Dairy) AGWEST Trade and Development Perth Western Australia phone +61 (0)8 9424 3155 phone +61 (0)8 9443 1463 (Home) fax +61 (0)8 9322 7150 e-mail aweinert@agric.wa.gov.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:09:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Rose Espinoza wrote: >Had a question for you regarding bees, hope you can help me. Recently a >colony of bees has moved into our back yard & is living underground. Rose, where do you live? (A point that should be include in all communications.) Normally honey bees do not nest in the ground unless they are Africanized. It well may be that you have yellow jacket wasps, instead. To control them you can use soapy water in a spray bottle (set on stream) from a SAFE distance and eliminate them quite well. Use some protection, though; they can come out like bullets. Get help from a local beekeeper. Usually they are listed with your county agricultural department. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 **************************************************************************** ****** * * You cannot hold on to the past; when you're holding on to the past, you're * protecting yourself and stealing from future generations." * * NASA Chief, Dan Goldin * LOS ANGELES TIMES - 1 July 1999 * **************************************************************************** ****** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:45:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bernie Duggan Subject: Re: Bee behaviour during eclipse In-Reply-To: <199908111151.HAA15418@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Overcast day with high cloud and only glimpses of the eclipsing sun. Nonetheless, strong foraging activity. No visible change in activity until two minutes before totality when bees returning began to make wide passes towards the back (West) of the hive instead of swooping straight-down-and-in as usual. Departing bees began to crawl actively over the front and side of the hive, some starting into the air making wide arcs and landing on the vegetation in front (East) of the hive. Totality was a profoundly-affecting, eerie experience: as if a gigantic dimmer switch had been turned down (55sec) and then back up. On return from totality bees continued crawling over top, sides and landing-board for approx 10 min before going inside, and over 20 min, resuming normal flights out. Regards, Bernie Duggan Bernie Duggan White Rock Ogwell Cross Denbury Devon UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:18:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) sover.net from tempa33.bf.sover.net [207.136.202.33] 207.136.202.33 Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:16:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jeffrey R. Hills" Subject: Re: Queen Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Riach wrote: > we have found that there is always some resistance to drawing out plastic I have found that putting a half sheet of good old traditional wax foundation between two new plastic frames does wonders. The bees chew it right up and make new comb out of it a no time at all. Jeff Hills Dorset, VT ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:03:42 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Getting rid of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rose Espinoza asks how to get rid of bees living underground. 1. If they are indeed honey bees call a local beekeeper. Look first in they yellow pages under bees, beekeepers, or maybe even swarms . 2. Call your County Cooperative Extension Service in the government section of your phone book. You may also call your State Apiarist to locate a local beekeepers association. Contact a local beekeeper and ask them to come look at your situation. 3. If they are really yellow jackets and not honey bees, there are several ways to get rid of them. Caution: be sure to wear adequate protective equipment so you don't get stung. a) At night, enlarge the access hole to six inches by taking some of the soil away from below the nest entrance with a long handled shovel, then pour a four gallon bucket of dishwater down the access hole, b) At night spray down the hole with a yellow jacket/wasp chemical, from your local garden store, that shoots a stream five to six feet, and coat the ground within six inches of the hole. The last two options may need to be repeated several times until you don't see insects flying during the day. Then mound up soil in the nest hole and tamp it down solid by using a four or five foot 2x4. Good luck, James C. Bach jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:13:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Queen Traits - Comb drawing Comments: To: alan.riach@which.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Alan and All: >Ref. Stan Sandlers experience with plastic foundation - we have found >that there is always some resistance to drawing out plastic and the >resistance is variable. Some hives will draw it OK in a heavy honey flow >but occasionally we've had hives that even in a heavy flow started their >own parallel foundation along side the plastic- maybe there is two comb >drawing traits --1/ drawing out from wax foundation and 2/ drawing out >from plastic. Interesting that you should mention this Alan. In addition to the plastic foundation I also put out about 550 pounds of wax foundation. With hives that were plugged out I put a box on between the brood supers. If this was wax it was drawn much quicker than the plastic. Your suggestion of two traits might be correct, or their might be a genetic ability to recognize wax quality which is fortunately lacking in the hives readily drawing plastic. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:38:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Filling Honey Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, I have come to the conclusion that most of the bees are mentally challenged. When the nectar flow started this year, I placed one super of foundation on each hive. Problem was, many hives were very stubborn about putting any nectar and honey up into the super. Many of the hives filled the upper hive body, and left little room in the top box for brood rearing. When the top hive body was filled, they started to draw the supers, but didn't fill many frames. I pulled many of the filled brood frames and extracted those. Now I know why the shallow bodies came along! I split 4 hives into 9 this spring. I didn't use a queen excluder either. I also gave all hives new queens. Did I split them too much, and they failed to build up a strong field force? How can I prevent this next year, or force them to store honey in the supers? Any and all insight would be appreciated. Thanks! Scott Moser St. Louis, MO. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:38:38 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Power Outtage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This is to advise list subscribers that there will be a planned power outtage in parts of the University from Friday evening through Sunday morning that will take BEE-L offline. Rest assured, everything will be back online by Sunday afternoon. Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:52:25 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: IBRA Subject: (Fwd) Beekeppers and eclipses of the sun Comments: To: bee-l@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This message contained some interesting observations which I thought might interest the Bee-L listers: ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:22:39 +0930 From: The Scott Family Organization: Rabbits, Inc. To: ibra@cardiff.ac.uk Subject: Beekeppers and eclipses of the sun Hello ibra, or is it Dr. Pamella Munn (?) I was interested to hear that a total eclipse of the sun is due to ocurr in parts of Europe during November this year. I kept bees in southern Australia for a period and was lucky enough to observe their behavior during a total eclipse. This eclipse occured in 1976 over parts of central Victoria, Victoria being the smallest Australian mainland State, and the most south-east. Perhaps you might be in a position to put my observations to others in Europe. We arrived at our bushland site a couple of hours before the eclipse and saw bees coming and going from the 12 hives we had. From a time of about 20 minutes before the eclipse, all activity outside the hives ceased. This behaviour continued throughout the eclipse and after. This last point seemed the most interesting to me. Apparently no bees were "caught out" by the eclipse, they were all home in advance. We confirmed this observation by watching for another hour or so after the eclipse. The eclipse occured about two hours before sunset, so we did not observe the second hour (we had to drive home), ie. we missed the last hour before sunset, but certainly no single bee was seen flying in the first hour after the eclipse. The behaviour of vertebrates around us was in contrast; sheep and cattle wailed in confusion; the birds went through routines of evening and morning calls, but our dog didn't really notice anything strange I think. I was amazed by all, especially the total darkness and the extremely quick "dawn" at the end of it. I thought it raised some interesting questions. Bees navigate by the sun and its temporal zenith and azimuth etc., but otherwise with compound eyes they should have not much understanding of the movement or presence of the moon, especially during daylight hours (not that they peek at the moon and stars at night either!). So what then, how did they predict the eclipse? An understanding of gravitational fields? One might say probably not, since this would hardly be an evolutionary force when total eclipses of the sun are so rare in time, given a set point in space. The only hypothesis I can come up with is that bees do in fact rely on the sun for navigation, that the shortcomings of compound eyes have forced a sense of gravitational fields in order to track the sun especially in cloudy situations and that (don't laugh, because I can't think of any other explanation) they have thus developed a means of calculation of movement of the heavenly bodies and were able to predict the eclipse. I don't know. Ask your beekeepers? I'd be most interested to hear some feedback. All the best and thanks. John Scott. (presently studying at Northern Territory University Australia). ====================================================================== ***Important when contacting IBRA**** **Please state in the subject line for whom your message is intended** ====================================================================== International Bee Research Association 18 North Road, Cardiff CF10 3DT, UK Tel: (+44) 29 20 372409 Fax: (+44) 29 20 665522 E.mail: ibra@cardiff.ac.uk IBRA WWW pages: http://www.cf.ac.uk/ibra =================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:04:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Queen Traits - Comb drawing In-Reply-To: <199908120342.XAA06071@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Ref. Stan Sandlers experience with plastic foundation Without knowing the brand, age of the plastic and whether it is wax coated and where it has been stored, as well as the age, brand and history of the wax foundation, and perhaps the cell base size of each, this type of discussion seems hopelessly general. 'Plastic' is a word that refers to thousands of compounds; there are numerous brands and configurations of both plastic and wax foundation available around the world. Moreover wax foundation is made of various analyses of beeswax as well as blends -- inadvertant or deliberate. I imagine the types of plastic vary somewhat too. FWIW, I have had batches of wax foundation the bees would not touch and some that they loved. Generally, using Pierco that is freshly wax coated at the factory I have found acceptance seems identical to wax sheets. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:59:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis van Engelsdorp Subject: Cornell Master Beekeeper Program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Dyce Lab for Honey Bee Studies, presents the Cornell University Master Beekeeper Program Apprentice Level Fall Course. For more information please visit http://128.253.66.35/dyce_laboratory/Master_Beekeeper_Program.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:40:29 -0400 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wtroyer Organization: Honey Hill Farm Subject: Re: Filling Honey Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott You asked about splitting too much (cutting the population too drastically). I too split every hive in the early spring some years ago with reasonable success. I would like to share my more recent experience with "no splits" hive management. Currently, I do no splits. Instead, I let those hives that have excess population swarm naturally. I then collect the swarms as the sole means of hive increase. No queen replacement is necessary since all queens breed locally as needed. The downside is the intense labor needed to collect and hive up the swarms especially in mid May. Good swarms will produce 1 medium super full of honey. An exceptional one will do 2 or 3 supers. Very few swarm colonies die out although queen replacement via supercedure appears common. With this method of hive management, no queen cells should be removed at any time. The original parent colonies typically produce 1 to 2 supers of honey. I use excluders on new swarm colonies, no excluders on parent colonies. This method of hive management is certainly not for everyone, but it works well for me. Wade -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Call Sign: W8BEE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:58:42 +0800 Reply-To: alex@ic.tsu.ru Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alex Kozlov Organization: Tomsk State University , Tomsk, Russia Subject: Help me!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want to have the information about education and about fonds of support of beekeeper . I have beegarden 30 families in the Siberia and i want to have education in industrial beekeeper and may be some-body give me small material help on the development my small business.. Sorry, my english is bad, if you read and understand my text,please,write me letter in Russia. My name Sergey A. Jeshinsky ,29 years ,my adress: Russia, Tomsk region, Selo Zirianskoe, street Rukovishnikova 4 index 636850, or write me message e-mail: alex@ic.tsu.ru ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:56:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew & Tiffany Subject: honey bee removal from hollow tree Comments: To: B-List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit any one have experience with a removal from a tree that cant be cut down or damaged ? I do lots of removals from homes but none from inside trees and now I have a customer who would like them removed from his front yard tree... figured maybe some sort od cone .... replies appreciated ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: Al Needham Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: What do you think of our entertainment on a 100-degree Saturday? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Slide Show: > http://www.pollinator.com/wildhive/ Nice job Dave ! I reccomend it to those of you who have not peeked yet ! Al Needham Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:12:20 -0500 Reply-To: cmichel@semo.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chris Michel Organization: Snap Shot Subject: Re: Jar Lids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone send me a list of lid suppliers? I found a great supplier of Pint, quart and half gallon glass jars. Cases of 12 are less than $2.50 each. {Arkansas Glass Container Corporation}. Two days ago I picked up my first small truck load of jars. Now I need lids?! Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks. M. Chris Michel Michel Family Apiaries Poplar Bluff, MO USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 06:19:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: amy thomson Subject: Re: hummingbird feeders In-Reply-To: <199907291337.JAA00233@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are little yellow plastic covers for hummingbird feeders that do just that very thing. They're round and they have a little grid on them that keeps the bees from reaching the nectar. They'll only work for the kind of feeders that have tubes that dispense the nectar. The feeders with the "flowers" flush-mounted into the base of the feeder can't use them. I found mine at the local hardware store. They cost less than a dollar as I recall. Amy Thomson >I have a couple of neighbors complaining about my bees on their = >hummingbird feeders in large numbers. Is there anything I can put on = >the feeders that will discourage the bees from the nectar in the = >feeders yet leave the birds still feeding at them? >The neighbors are getting noisy. > >Arnold Jones >LaFollette, Tn.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:16:53 -0400 Reply-To: String & Linda Monteith Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: String & Linda Monteith Subject: Black bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This week we have been seeing a _lot_ of black bees. They are not from our hives and we have never seen black bees before. They are the same size as our honeybees and other than the color appear identical. They are _very_ busy bees and appear to be very gentle. The closest beekeeper I know of is 14 miles away & says he has no black bees. Any idea what kind they are? Linda in Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:15:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Friday Ululani Subject: Re: Plastic frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have one hive only. I'm a new beekeeper (or "haver"). My bees did not want to build comb on my plastic frames. The local bee supply/farm supply store has old beeswax for sale, along with other candle making supplies. I melted it and spread it on the plastic with an old paint brush. Within two days the center frames had comb developing, and the old wax was nowhere to be seen. Maybe the girls just then really needed the space, or maybe the wax did it(?) It may be worth a try for you. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 02:58:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Tim Sherman (inventor)" Subject: Re: BEE SOUND can bees detect a frequency? could a sound repell a be away ? a frequency? I read the article about that guy that died in Mexico from the killer bees.... I have been thinking.....about how to repell bee away.......? any ideas...... tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:26:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: FAITHAB@AOL.COM Subject: Re: honey bee removal from hollow tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/13/1999 6:48:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dubees@ENTER.NET writes: << figured maybe some sort od cone >> I've taken bees from two trees and just used the cone system. It worked fine but I found that I had to use a caulking gun to fill in the gaps between the screen cone and the rough bark. Duct tape and many, many staples might work too. But, before I figured that out, the bees just easily came and went in a small gap between bark and screen! Also, watch out for other entrances. I had to completely screen over a small hollow about three feet above the main entrance. The tree was quite a sight. I managed to interest the local paper into doing a feature on the interesting procedure and got some good PR for bees and beekeepers and their value, etc, etc. Good luck Faith Andrews Bedford ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:16:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) default from pm3a5.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.229] 207.136.199.229 Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:09:15 -0400 (EDT) From: muddog Subject: first time beekeeper Comments: To: BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello HELP!! i am new to beekeeping and have discovered that "my" bees have connected the lower hive frames with comb. when i cut the connecting comb and pulled a frame out to inspect i found that the bees have built brood comb which had larvae below the hive frames!! when i inspected the upper hive body i found what i think was brood cells which are now empty and the outer frames are filled and capped there were lots of bees in both hive bodies as well as the super i had added. altho there are bees in the super they are not drawing out comb. should the super be removed? i replaced the frame in the lower hive and left the bees to continue doing their thing. i need to know how and when it would be best to deal with this excess comb. this inspection took place 2-3 days ago. there is still lots of activity, comming and going of worker bees. in the evening they beard over at the entrance for a while but do not stay there as they did during the hot weather. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:00:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: R & S Adams Subject: Bee Keeping Clip Art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; boundary="NYVESPBWTGUXMYRQWYJEVFYKBGPCQM"; charset="iso-8859-1" Does anyone have any leads on where to download some free clip art related to beekeeping? I've found bees and flowers, but not skeps or hives. Thanks, S. Adams ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 07:50:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Splits, Supercedure queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: >* Another is whether 24 hour old larvae are *that* much better than 36 hour the >larvae that are acceptable by some authors (or the 48 hour larvae that Steve >Tabor suggests the bees choose). I submit that in many cases the difference will >not be detectable in the field. I have followed this disscussion with interest because I raise some queens for my own use. I have no insight but do have some observations and comments. When picking up some queens at a southern breeder a year ago I toured their operation. In the grafting room they told me they routinely select older larvae because they are easier to seeand to move without damaging them. I was astonished! All I had read on grafting suggests that the youngest larvae must be used. I was sure these queens would fail. But to my suprise they headed productive colonies and wintered well. In a May 1999 article of Bee Culture Kim Flottum wrote about how Adee Honey Farms produces over 40,000 queen for splits and requeening of their operation. They use larvae that are two days old. I was suprised that editor Flottum made no comment on this. When raising queens I try to use young larvae. To do this it is recomended that the breeder queen be confined on a comb for 24 hours then the queen removed from that comb. Three days later grafting should be done. --- It seems to me that depending on when the queen lays the egg there could be as much as 24 hours difference in the age of the eggs on the comb. In other words, if the egg is layed when first confined on the comb or if the egg is layed just prior to the queens removal could make a days difference in the age of the grafted larvae. There are ways to minimize this age difference such as checking and removing these combs every 12 hours, however I doubt that most queen breeders have the time or follow this procedure. Tell me if I am wrong. I continue to use what I think is the youngest larvae possible for my queens, but it seems that others have had success doing otherwise. Marc Studebaker Geneva, In. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:45:22 -0400 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wtroyer Organization: Honey Hill Farm Subject: Superbees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi fellow beekeepers I've recently read that a new type of honeybee will be available early next year that is resistant to varroa mites. This honeybee will supposedly be a Russian type. The ABC News link below leads to the article describing this new "superbee". http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/bees990813.html Does anyone on this list have factual information on this subject? Is there such a bee? If so, will it be introduced next year? Just the facts please. Wade -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Call Sign: W8BEE ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 08:52:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Arthritis, NSAIDs and Bee Sting Reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've noted the discussions here about Non Steroidal Anti-Inflamatory Drugs (NSAIDs) and a reported increased risk of serious bee sting reactions in people who have not previously experienced problems with stings, particularly beekeepers. The gist as I understand it of it has been that drugs ending in 'phen' are implicated. This includes, I assume, Acetaminphen as well as ibuprofen ("...fen" = "...phen"?) as well as their higher power prescription relatives. Recently, I have taken normal label recommended doses of ibuprofen on occasion and gone working bees -- and been stung with no ill effects. I think I heard that the dangers are associated with *large* doses of these drugs, but I don't know and I think that this area is not too well understood. Recently I have been prescribed Arthrotec, an anti-arthritic drug for back problems and swoolen sore hand. The stuff really works. So much for beekeepers not getting arthritis. Anyhow, I've looked around and see that this drug does not seem to be of the "...phen" family. A web search brought me this: "Arthrotec is a new product that combines the NSAID diclofenac and the prostaglandin analog misoprostol. The diclofenac component of Arthrotec is responsible for the relief of the symptoms of arthritis. The misoprostol component is responsible for the mucoprotective properties. Arthrotec has the dual purpose of relieving the signs and symptoms of arthritis and protecting patients from the development of gastric and duodenal ulcers"... I'm not taking massive doses, but I'm wondering what people know about this drug and any dangers. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:52:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HarrisonRW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE SOUND MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/13/1999 12:35:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tsher90735@aol.com writes: << can bees detect a frequency? could a sound repell a be away ? a frequency? >> I do bee removals now and then and a fellow called me one afternoon to come and look at a swarm that had just moved into the wall of his house. When I got there later in the day he told me that they had left. His teenage son play's electric guitar in a heavy metal rock band. The son put a couple of amplifiers against the wall and commenced to play some heavy metal for around a half hour and then the bees took off for quieter surroundings. Regards, Ralph Harrison Western CT Beekeepers Association Milford, CT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:23:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. G. Miller" Subject: Re: first time beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Finding brood below the frame bottom bars is perfectly normal, especially if the bees are in a nectar flow. These are generally drones, and as such scraping them off will do no harm. As to the rest of your situation, I suggest you get a more experienced local beekeeper to look at your colony and see if it is OK. Whether or not there is a problem will depend on the strength of your colony and the local conditions. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 07:42:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Plastic frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will the heat used in melting wax kill AFB spores? That would be my only concern is using store-bought wax to coat plastic foundation. Bill T Bath, mE ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:05:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wolfgang_P=F6hlmann?= Subject: heat and varroa Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A beekeping friend of mine, who earlier lived in Kasachstan has told me from the system you mentioned. There he had 25 hives wich made him a sideliner. When varroa came in their area, they tried many differnt methods. The best suited method for their rural area seemed to be the heat treatment. On a not to cold winterday the bees are dumped in meshed drum which is munted over a heater. They heat and carefully measure the temperature and put a white sheet of paper under the drum. The drum is rotated to achieve the same temperature for each bee. When they see varroas fall on the paper, they do not more increase the heat. The lethal themerature for bees is only 3 or 4 C higher than the lethal temperature for varroa. The method is labor intensive, but just one treatment per year is sufficient and no chemicals are brought into the hive. greetings Wolfgang Wolfgang Poehlmann, Hobby Beekeeper in South Germany Email: wolfgang.poehlmann@t-online.de homepage: http://home.t-online.de/home/wolfgang.poehlmann/imkerei.htm