Subject: Re: Medieval European food

From: [email-masked] (Par Leijonhufvud labtek)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 07:16:15 GMT

Blueberries certainly existed in Europe prior to Columbus; they are 
native in Scandinavia. But there are some differences between the 
American ones and the ones we have over here, probably more of a 
subspecies than a species difference (no, I won't go inte the delightful 
discussions among taxonimists on speciation, and just what constitutes a 
separate species; I'm using the term species _very_ loosely here). 

I think blackberries are native here too. As I recall the tastes they are 
pretty much exchangeable as far as culinary uses are concerened.

/P{r

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:   Paer K.G. Leijonhufvud          Oh, *practice*. I don't mind 
Email:  [email-masked]   *practising*. So long as we
Voice:  +46-(0)8-758 8459               don't have to do it for real...

---

From: [email-masked] (charles )
Date: 3 Apr 1995 07:49:14 GMT

Margaret Young ([email-masked]) wrote:
: [email-masked] wrote:

: :    > From: [email-masked] (Loy Lawhon)
: :    > >    > Hi,
: :    > >    > A friend of mine is a member of the Society for Creative
: :    >Anachronism. >    >Sge has asked me to help her locate a list of foods
: :    >that were common >    >during the "period" - 800 to 1400. She's not
: :    >looking for recipes, but >    >for a list of meats, grains, fruits,
: :    >vegetables, etc. If anyone can >    >help, it would be much appreciated.

Another amazingly useful source is a thing called the seed-savers' handbook, or somesuch. It 
comes from a crowd who are trying to maintain  awide varitey of edible? plants, and includes
information on where things came from and how they devekloped.

I can help more on more specific stuff if you like (he says bravely)

charles

---

From: [email-masked] (Margaret Young)
Date: 3 Apr 1995 06:38:21 GMT

Par Leijonhufvud labtek ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Blueberries certainly existed in Europe prior to Columbus; they are 
: native in Scandinavia. But there are some differences between the 
: American ones and the ones we have over here, probably more of a 
: subspecies than a species difference (no, I won't go inte the delightful 
: discussions among taxonimists on speciation, and just what constitutes a 
: separate species; I'm using the term species _very_ loosely here). 

: I think blackberries are native here too. As I recall the tastes they are 
: pretty much exchangeable as far as culinary uses are concerened.

Sigh, I was thinking of cranberries.  Sheesh, I should never post late at
night.

margaret

: /P{r

: -- 
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: Name:   Paer K.G. Leijonhufvud          Oh, *practice*. I don't mind 
: Email:  [email-masked]   *practising*. So long as we
: Voice:  +46-(0)8-758 8459               don't have to do it for real...

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 1 Apr 1995 18:11:33 GMT

> From: [email-masked] (Loy Lawhon)
   > >    > Hi,
   > >    > A friend of mine is a member of the Society for Creative
   >Anachronism. >    >Sge has asked me to help her locate a list of foods
   >that were common >    >during the "period" - 800 to 1400. She's not
   >looking for recipes, but >    >for a list of meats, grains, fruits,
   >vegetables, etc. If anyone can >    >help, it would be much appreciated.

   > >      Is your friend interested in a particular country or century?
   >This >      covers an awful lot of territory.  For example, certain
   >things were >      not available in Europe before the crusades, and
   >what was "common" in >      Italy might be unknown in Scandinavia.  Do
   >you know what your friend's >      intent is in gathering this list?
   >Does she want to cook a feast? >

   > Hi,
   > Thanks for helping. Okay, if it must be narrowed down,  let's say
   >England & France circa 1400. I think she wants to know what she can &
   >cannot use in preparing an authentic feast - what foods only became a
   >part of the menu after discovery of the New World, etc.

     Okay...  New World foods that are inappropriate for her purposes
     include tomatoes, capsicum peppers (hot peppers and bell peppers --
     black pepper is ok), vanilla, allspice, turkey, most squashes,
     potatoes, corn, and beans (except lentils, fava beans, and chick
     peas).  I've probably left some out, but those are the main ones.

     15th century Anglo-Norman cuisine is *very* well documented  -- your
     friend will find a lot of period cookbooks, and a fair number of good
     modern translations/redactions.  _Pleyn Delit_ by Hieatt and Butler
     (ISBN 0-8020-6366-7) contains recipes from 14th and 15th century
     cookbooks.  In each case, the original recipe is given, followed by
     commentary, and a redaction with modern measurements and instructions.
     _Take a Thousand Eggs or More_ by Cindy Renfrow is a two volume set of
     15th cent. recipes (volumes can be purchased separately).  Volume
     One contains the original recipe followed by a modern translation
     and a redaction.  Volume Two contains original, unredacted recipes
     only.  (Different recipes in each volume)

     If your friend prefers to work with original sources only, she might
     want to look at _Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks_, edited by Thomas
     Austin, and published by Oxford Univ. Press.  This title, and many
     other useful ones, are available in a collection sold by David
     Friedman, who often posts to this newsgroup.  At all costs she should
     avoid _Fabulous Feasts_ by Cosman, which contains highly inauthentic
     redactions with no indication of the sources used.

     You might also want to inquire on the SCA newsgroup (rec.org.sca),
     where there are many experienced SCA cooks.

   > Thanks again for any help you can provide.
   > Loy ([email-masked])

Robin Carroll-Mann ** [email-masked]
SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East

---

From: [email-masked] (Margaret Young)
Date: 1 Apr 1995 23:01:04 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:

:    > From: [email-masked] (Loy Lawhon)
:    > >    > Hi,
:    > >    > A friend of mine is a member of the Society for Creative
:    >Anachronism. >    >Sge has asked me to help her locate a list of foods
:    >that were common >    >during the "period" - 800 to 1400. She's not
:    >looking for recipes, but >    >for a list of meats, grains, fruits,
:    >vegetables, etc. If anyone can >    >help, it would be much appreciated.

:    > >      Is your friend interested in a particular country or century?
:    >This >      covers an awful lot of territory.  For example, certain
:    >things were >      not available in Europe before the crusades, and
:    >what was "common" in >      Italy might be unknown in Scandinavia.  Do
:    >you know what your friend's >      intent is in gathering this list?
:    >Does she want to cook a feast? >

:    > Hi,
:    > Thanks for helping. Okay, if it must be narrowed down,  let's say
:    >England & France circa 1400. I think she wants to know what she can &
:    >cannot use in preparing an authentic feast - what foods only became a
:    >part of the menu after discovery of the New World, etc.

:      Okay...  New World foods that are inappropriate for her purposes
:      include tomatoes, capsicum peppers (hot peppers and bell peppers --
:      black pepper is ok), vanilla, allspice, turkey, most squashes,
:      potatoes, corn, and beans (except lentils, fava beans, and chick
:      peas).  I've probably left some out, but those are the main ones.

Tsk, tsk, you left out CHOCOLATE (and turkey, blackberries and blueberries--
I think some blackberries might be all right . . .)
margaret

:      15th century Anglo-Norman cuisine is *very* well documented  -- your
:      friend will find a lot of period cookbooks, and a fair number of good
:      modern translations/redactions.  _Pleyn Delit_ by Hieatt and Butler
:      (ISBN 0-8020-6366-7) contains recipes from 14th and 15th century
:      cookbooks.  In each case, the original recipe is given, followed by
:      commentary, and a redaction with modern measurements and instructions.
:      _Take a Thousand Eggs or More_ by Cindy Renfrow is a two volume set of
:      15th cent. recipes (volumes can be purchased separately).  Volume
:      One contains the original recipe followed by a modern translation
:      and a redaction.  Volume Two contains original, unredacted recipes
:      only.  (Different recipes in each volume)

:      If your friend prefers to work with original sources only, she might
:      want to look at _Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks_, edited by Thomas
:      Austin, and published by Oxford Univ. Press.  This title, and many
:      other useful ones, are available in a collection sold by David
:      Friedman, who often posts to this newsgroup.  At all costs she should
:      avoid _Fabulous Feasts_ by Cosman, which contains highly inauthentic
:      redactions with no indication of the sources used.

:      You might also want to inquire on the SCA newsgroup (rec.org.sca),
:      where there are many experienced SCA cooks.

:    > Thanks again for any help you can provide.
:    > Loy ([email-masked])

: Robin Carroll-Mann ** [email-masked]
: SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East

---

From: Joyce Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: 12 Apr 1995 17:19:21 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> Jodie Kain,
[email-masked] writes:
>Aren't cranberries native to central europe - specifically Poland? I 
>think I remember reading sour fruit, including cranberries, is used in 
>all sorts of meat dishes in that region. From way before the New World era.

I believe that you are thinking of Lingon-berries, which *are*
native to Northern Europe and are still very popular in Sweden.

The two berries are very similar, so you can probably substitute
cranberries in a European recipe with almost no diffference in
taste.  Be sure to chop them, though, since Lingon-berries are
smaller.

-- Joyce