Subject: Re: Broad beans (ie Fava)

From: [email-masked] (Dawn Friedman)
Date: 14 Jun 93 00:20:21 EDT

Can anyone here tell me:
  
  Which of the beans are Old World, and which New World?
  
  Which of the peppers, likewise?  Is paprika from an Old World pepper?
  
  Which squashes, likewise?
  
  --Many thanks,
    Dawn

-- 
[email-masked]  *  What is the reason for having roses
                           *  When your blood is shed carelessly?
                           *  It must be something more than vanity...

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From: [email-masked] (David Friedman)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 17:04:26 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
(Stephen Bloch) wrote:

> Most of the squashes in the grocery store are New World.  David
> Friedman has done some research into this and concluded that medieval
> European recipes for "gourds", or with words that translate into
> modern English as "squash" or "pumpkin", are probably for something
> called the white-flowered gourd (Lagenaria somethingorother).

1. The research (really a literature search) was done by my wife, Betty
Cook, not by me. She may forgive Steve--then again she may not.

2. The conclusion is that all of the squashes in your grocery store are New
World, unless your grocery store is in Chinatown. The Chinese still use a
variety of Lagenaria. I think the "Italian Edible Gourd" is also a
Lagenaria, although I am not sure.

3. Steve correctly describes the situation re peppers. 

David Friedman

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From: [email-masked] (David Adams)
Date: 14 Jun 93 12:38:49 CDT

In article [email-masked], [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch) writes:
[email-masked] (Dawn Friedman) writes:
|>  Can anyone here tell me:
|>  
|>  Which of the beans are Old World, and which New World?
|
|I've been told the only Old World beans are lentils, garbanzos, and favas.

and soy.   (minor detail.  ;^)

|I'm not sure how things like sweet and/or field peas fit in.

Old world, no?

|

rest of answers deleted.

---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  [email-masked]
              -Sourdough and Ham-  N0WWN

      - Minnesotans for Global Warming!

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From: [email-masked] (Jane Beckman)
Date: 14 Jun 93 20:59:22 GMT

>  Which of the beans are Old World, and which New World?
	Old World: garbanzos, fava beans, peas, lentils
  	New World: kidney beans, pinto beans, pink beans, white
beans, limas, most "heirloom" beans
>  Which of the peppers, likewise?  Is paprika from an Old World pepper?
	ALL chili, bell, sweet peppers are New World.  This
includes paprika.  Malaguay peppers, used in South America,
are not a close relative, and those come from Africa, if
memory serves.  And of course, there are peppercorns, which
should not be confused with either.j
>  Which squashes, likewise?
    All summer squash and pumpkins are New World, as well as
most winter squash.  A lot of winter squashes' origins depend
on how you define "winter" squash.
    Gourds and melons are Old World, as are some of the
"Oriental" squash.  I believe calabashes are Old World, as
well.
--
  Jilara   [[email-masked]]

"Every now and then, a big rock falls out of the sky, and everyone has 
a *very bad* day."  --from the PBS "Dinosaurs" special.

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From: [email-masked] (Scott Fisher)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 23:45:57 GMT

>  Which of the peppers, likewise?  Is paprika from an Old World pepper?

Pepper...  Columbus got a spice that wasn't pepper from people who
weren't Indians, and the world has been confused for over 500 years.

The short answer is that all of "the peppers" (meaning members of
the genus Capsicum) are New World plants.

One of the most valuable spices in the world in 1492 was the seed
of the pepper tree, piper nigrum, which was literally worth its
weight in gold and counted out grain by grain.  In fact, the
economic value of spices in general were one of the major driving
forces behind Columbus' journeys; he got funding primarily because
he convinced Ferdinand and Isabella that he could find a faster
route to the Indies, with their rich source of spices.

When he landed in what are now the Bahamas, COlumbus found the
native Arawak people using a spice that they called "aji" (J 
pronounced like an H, and accent on the last syllable).  He
mistakenly thought this was a red variety of the black pepper 
he knew, so he called the stuff "pepper" and brought it back to 
Europe in 1493.

After COlumbus' return, the Portuguese picked up on this new
pepper that he had brought back from the Caribbean.  They took 
it with them on their own trading journeys around the Horn to
India, where one wonders whether the Portuguese were surprised
to learn that the Indians had never seen this spice before.  In
any case, fans of vindaloo should bless the Portuguese, who 
brought red peppers to India by about 1520-1530.

Peppers traveled up India into the Middle East.  By the 1600s,
peppers started appearing in eastern Europe, known as Turkish
peppers or Indian peppers.  The Hungarians gave this a diminutive
ending, resulting in the word peperke, which evolved into the word
paprika.  Paprika and other modern Hungarian peppers are all members
of the species capsicum annuum, the most economically significant
and horticulturally diverse species of the five that are commonly
domesticated.  The genus cross-breeds and mutates easily, and there
are several hundred domesticated varieties available.  One source
of seeds lists 161 varieties; I'm growing over 20 at home, with
representatives of at least three of the five significant species
(annuum, chinense, pubescens, and frutescens too come to think of
it; the only source for C. baccatum I could find had no seeds by
the time I ordered them, but I've found another source who's
growing this variety locally).  Heck, I've got two species on my 
desk right now. :-)

Modern research (notably that documented by Jean Andrews in Peppers: The
Domesticated Capsicums) has been unable to identify a single old-world
pepper of the kind that Columbus brought back.  The peppers used in
paprika are now believed to be an exclusively New World genus.  The
only suggestions to the contrary are Chinese legends that claim that
the cooking of Sichuan and Hunan provinces have used peppers for
thousands of years, but there is no documentary evidence to prove
this (such as contemporary illustrations or archaeological evidence).

Peppers, BTW, appear to have been among the earliest domesticated
plants in the New World, with evidence of harvesting as far back 
as 9000 BC (from coprolites and middens) and evidence suggesting
cultivation as early as 7000 BC.  THe centers of cultivation appear
to be the middle of South America, near modern Uruguay, though there
is roughly contemporary evidence from central Mexico as well.  It
also appears that cultivation of plants -- the domestication of
wild forms -- occurred roughly simultaneously in several parts of
the world, basically the Tigris-Euphrates valley, China, and South
America.

--Scott "Just don't call me Dr. Pepper" Fisher

PS.  As a side question, I've become fascinated to know what Thai
food was like before about 1600 when Dutch and Portuguese traders
brought c. frutescens seeds there.  Anyone have any 14th-century
Thai dishes?  They would have had ginger, black pepper, galangal,
lemon grass, coconut, and the rest of the old world spice cabinet,
but it's sure hard to imagine Thai food without chiles, isn't it?

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From: [email-masked] (Terry Nutter)
Date: 16 Jun 93 20:23:46 GMT

Hi.  I just said,

>        When I looked into this, I used primarily Thomas Wallace
>Whitaker, _Cucurbits: Botany, Cultivation, and Utilization_ (Intersience
>Press) 1967.  

That should be 1962, not 1967.

Terry Nutter     Blacksburg, VA     [email-masked]     (703)552-1598

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From: [email-masked] (Jane Beckman)
Date: 17 Jun 93 01:22:27 GMT

>and soy.   (minor detail.  ;^)
Does anyone know how closely garbanzos and soy beans are
related?  They certainly *look* very similar.  I wouldn't be
surprised to find they have a common ancestor.