Subject: Absinthe recipe question

From: [email-masked] (James Alexander Chokey)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 04:36:37 GMT

Hi there.  A friend of mine who has no net access is trying to
make absinthe, that wormwood-distilled drink that is now banned in most
countries in which it formerly used to be legal due to the numerous 
health problems that it tends to cause.  
	He's following a recipe from a Canadian beer, wine, and spirits 
book from 1927.  He's got all of the ingredients he needs except he is
just a little bit puzzled by one thing.  One of the ingredients the 
recipe calls for is "2.5 gallons spirits (10 U.P.)"  He would like to
know what sort of booze this is referring to, as well as what the "U.P."
stands for.  (Other recipes in this book call for 14 U.P. spirits and
for 60 O.P. spirits).  His best guess is that this is some way related
to the spirit's "proof."  	
	If anyone out there knows what type of "spirits" one is supposed
to use when making absinthe, what the above-mentioned abbreviations mean,
or both, please let me know (either by e-mail or by posting-- whichever
you think is more appropriate) and I will relay the information to him.

	Thanks,

	--  Jim C. <[email-masked]>

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 19:39:26 GMT

> 	--  Jim C. <[email-masked]>
U.P. stands for "under proof" and O.P. stands for "over proof".  I do not
have any references handy but I think "proof" is equal to 100 proof.
14 U.P. would be 86 proof.  I have no idea what type of spirits to use, but I
would guess neutral spirits.  If I can find the right book I will verify my
answer
Gary

-- 
Gary Nazelrod [email-masked]
Any opinions that may be construed from my ramblings are not my employer's
and furthermore are probably not mine either.

---

From: [email-masked] (Smith, Douglas, A.)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 21:58:00 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (James Alexander Chokey) writes...
>health problems that it tends to cause.  

	Why does he wish to make Absinthe?  He first should check out the
history of the drug.  The drug is a serious poison, more so than alcohol,
nicotine, and other popular poisons.  It is my understanding that the main
affect of the drug was that the person had literally a mind numbing exper-
ience, as the drug was destroying the brain.  I think the same affects can
be found from toluene, an organic solvent that you inhale through to the
nose.  The solvent makes its way through the nasal passages and mucose
membranes to the brain, were it starts to desolve cells.
	If your friend has some romantic notion about the drug from the
stories of ninteenth century artists, he should follow those stories to
the end, and see how these artists ended up.  Many drugs are against the
law, but still popular.  Absinthe is not popular, and for good reasons.
If anyone has actually tried absinthe, and enjoyed it, write me a note,
because I just can't believe there any reason wanting to make this drug.

Douglas Smith

---

From: [email-masked] (Nick Maclaren)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 22:35:10 GMT

>would guess neutral spirits.  If I can find the right book I will verify my

This is correct.  "Proof" was originally defined by being the strength
that would just burn when mixed with gunpowder (but I don't know the
proportions), and is now defined by weight at a specified temperature.
It is about 57% alcohol by volume.  U.S.A. proof is 50% by volume at
some other temperature.  I assume that a Canadian book would use the
same definition of proof that we do in Britain.

Most spirits are 70% of proof, so 10% UP is on the strong side.  60%
OP is the stuff that you burn in rockets.  Yes, I know that it is sold
for drinking in some countries, but it is always diluted (and be careful
how you do that, because mixing alcohol and water is highly exothermic).

Nick Maclaren
University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street,
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England.
Email:  [email-masked]
Tel.:   +44 223 334761
Fax:    +44 223 334679

---

From: [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc)
Date: 22 Jul 1993 19:05:07 -0400

>because I just can't believe there any reason wanting to make this drug.

Well, considering that I have been drinking absinthe two or three times a
week for the past 20 years, I must be dead.

You should not believe every diatribe you read, especially when utterly
unsupported by controlled experiments. Absinthe is a delightfully bitter
herb (much more so than hops, by the way, so that a small twig will do for
a liter, which when diluted to drinking strength will be about 5 liters)
and got saddled with the blame for an epidemic of alcoholism in Europe
around the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries for the
simple reason that it would have been impolitic and uneconomic to blame
alcohol. At the same time, the US embarked upon prohibition, because
there was no such pressure from wine producers. 

Absinthe:
   1 bottle vodka
   50 g sugar
   1 vial pure anise extract
   1 small handful chopped licorice root
   1 twig wormwood
 
Mix together and let sit a few days. Strain through a coffee filter. To serve,
mix 1 part absinthe to 4 parts water, add ice, enjoy.

Pierre
-- 
Pierre Jelenc
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (arne thormodsen)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 23:08:05 GMT

> health problems that it tends to cause.  

As I recall the "health problems" were, among other things, irreversible
brain damage due to a neurotransmitter precursor in one of the herbs
used in absinthe.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd sure as heck think twice
before making this stuff.

--arne

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 22 Jul 93 18:29:02 -0600

> would guess neutral spirits.  If I can find the right book I will verify my

"Proof" in relation to booze = 50% alcohol content = 100 proof.  I'll bet
that the "spirits" are neutral spirits, plain 50% EtOH in lab parlance.
Or "half strength Everclear" to survivors of lab parties where "purple jesus"
and other concoctions were consumed.

Kay Klier  Biology Dept  UNI

---

From: [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc)
Date: 22 Jul 1993 21:58:24 -0400

>   1 twig wormwood

I should have said "sprig" above, i.e. a leaf + stalk, if fresh wormwood
is used.

Pierre
-- 
Pierre Jelenc
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 03:07:45 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc) writes:

[regarding the toxic properties of absinthe]
|>
|>Well, considering that I have been drinking absinthe two or three times a
|>week for the past 20 years, I must be dead.
|>
|>You should not believe every diatribe you read, especially when utterly
|>unsupported by controlled experiments. Absinthe is a delightfully bitter
|>herb (much more so than hops, by the way, so that a small twig will do for
|>a liter, which when diluted to drinking strength will be about 5 liters)
|>and got saddled with the blame for an epidemic of alcoholism in Europe
|>around the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries for the
|>simple reason that it would have been impolitic and uneconomic to blame
|>alcohol. At the same time, the US embarked upon prohibition, because
|>there was no such pressure from wine producers. 
|>
|>Absinthe:
|>   1 bottle vodka
|>   50 g sugar
|>   1 vial pure anise extract
|>   1 small handful chopped licorice root
|>   1 twig wormwood
|> 
|>Mix together and let sit a few days. Strain through a coffee filter. To serve,
|>mix 1 part absinthe to 4 parts water, add ice, enjoy.

The problem wasn't with infusions of wormwood such as the recipe above.  The
problem is when you add the wormwood before distillation, and it might also be
the root, rather than the leaves, that is involved.  When wormwood is added
before distallation of the liqueur is when you get your troubles.

Wormwood leaves, infused as above, are quite common and perfectly OK.
Vermouth gets its name from the wormwood that's infused in the wine ("vermouth"
is French or Provencal or something for "wormwood").

--PSW

---

From: [email-masked] (Joel Polowin)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 03:43:05 GMT

>how you do that, because mixing alcohol and water is highly exothermic).

Um.  Mixing pure anhydrous alcohol (methanol through propanol, at least)
with water is mildly exothermic, if I recall correctly from the second-year
phys chem lab course I took and then taught, seven or eight years ago.
Might be endothermic, though that doesn't seem right.  The temperature
change wasn't more than a couple of degrees: one could feel the difference
if one were paying careful attention but not otherwise.  If the alcohol
already had some proportion of water, the temperature change was essentially
undetectable -- I don't think anyone ever felt a temperature change after
mixing the 95%-by-volume ethanol azeotrope with water.  (A thermometer, of
course, would likely show a change.)

Concentrated sulfuric acid -- now THAT gives a lot of heat on mixing with
water.  If one generalized "60% OP" to mean "160 proof" or "80% by volume
aqueous solution" (if I'm following this correctly)... well, that'd still
be a fairly concentrated sulfuric acid solution and it'd probably get
somewhat warm on mixing with more water.  But I don't think that would be
dangerously exothermic; the water already present would have taken the
edge off, as it were.

Joel
[email-masked], [email-masked],
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc)
Date: 23 Jul 1993 13:34:44 -0400

>before distallation of the liqueur is when you get your troubles.

If anything, distillation would reduce the amount and number of chemicals
that are present in the final product. In any case, thujone is the
chemical that was implicated, and it is perfectly soluble in alcohol.
Absinthe is made from the leaves of the plant, not the roots (it is a
perennial, and taking the roots would of course kill it). The problem was
that absinthe was typically 190 proof, was drunk over sugar, which made it
easier and more palatable without dilution in water as should be done, and
was the intoxicant of choice for the abusers of the time because it was
cheap and legal.

Absinthe was still legal in Spain and North Africa into the fifties, but
was consumed properly just like pastis and anisette. It was in the colder
regions of France, Germany, and Switzerland that it was often drunk
undiluted or barely diluted.

>is French or Provencal or something for "wormwood").

Vermouth is the French spelling of the German Wermuth (today spelled Wermut).

That is not to say that pure thujone is inoccuous. Like most flavorings,
it is toxic in large amounts, just like vanillin for instance. It is
however so intensely bitter that it is impossible to ingest large amounts.
A 1 gram sprig probably contains some 100 mg of essential oils, and that
gets diluted to 5 liters, for a final concentration of 20 ppm.

Pierre
-- 
Pierre Jelenc
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (pete)
Date: 23 Jul 1993 15:37 PST

OK, three points:

1) Yes, canadian proof follows british: 100 proof=57% alc. by volume.

2) There was an excellent article on the horrors of absinthe in
Scientific American a few years ago. I don't have any reference
here to to look up, but it was between 2 an 5 years ago. Among
other things, it may be that Van Gogh was seized with the urge
to cut off his ear due to the influence of absinthe.

3) According to the article, the amount of turpenes dissolved in
the drink was so large that it was no longer miscible in water,
rather forming a milky suspension. It would be rather like drinking
turpentine.

==========================================================================
We are definitely here as representatives of the     %    Pete Vincent
Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages Luminaries  % Disclaimer: all I
and Other Professional Thinking Persons, and we      % know I learned from  
want this machine off, and we want it off now!       % reading Usenet.

---

From: [email-masked] (Bruce Harlan)
Date: 23 Jul 1993 22:02:30 GMT

Purple Jesus?

Are you gonna tell us how you make that (you obviously survived).

:)

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] writes:
|> In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] writes:
|> > U.P. stands for "under proof" and O.P. stands for "over proof".  I do not
|> > have any references handy but I think "proof" is equal to 100 proof.
|> > 14 U.P. would be 86 proof.  I have no idea what type of spirits to use, but I
|> > would guess neutral spirits.  If I can find the right book I will verify my
|> > answer
|> 
|> "Proof" in relation to booze = 50% alcohol content = 100 proof.  I'll bet
|> that the "spirits" are neutral spirits, plain 50% EtOH in lab parlance.
|> Or "half strength Everclear" to survivors of lab parties where "purple jesus"
|> and other concoctions were consumed.
|> 
|> Kay Klier  Biology Dept  UNI

Bruce 

Standard disclaimers apply- you know the routine. I'm not responsible
for anything. If my company wants my opinion, they will let me know.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 23 Jul 93 19:26:43 -0600

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Bruce Harlan) writes:
> 
>|"Proof" in relation to booze = 50% alcohol content = 100 proof.  I'll bet
>|that the "spirits" are neutral spirits, plain 50% EtOH in lab parlance.
>|Or "half strength Everclear" to survivors of lab parties where "purple jesus"
>|and other concoctions were consumed.
> 
> Purple Jesus?
> 

I never drank it, thank you.  Obtain a large container-- say a 25 
liter carboy.  Empty all bottles brought to the party into the container.
Beer, wine, booze, specimens in formaldehyde ;-).  Top up with 
Everclear.  Stir.  

Watch person drinking this turn purple.  When the partier gets his/her
breath back, the first word is often Jesus!

This beverage seems to have remarkable effects on the partiers' libidos,
inhibitions, and sense of balance.  Personally, I'd sooner drink
the formaldehyde.  It's obviously not as lethal!  ;-)

Kay

---

From: [email-masked] (Steve Gunnell)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 93 00:44:47 GMT

> for 60 O.P. spirits).  His best guess is that this is some way related
Exactly right, UnderProof and OverProof. However the Proof point and the
units of measure vary from country to country and from time to time. In
Australia Proof can be anywhere from 37.5% to 43% alcohol by volume. And
One "Proof unit" is 1% alcohol by volume. USA on the other hand uses TWO
"Proof units" per 1% alcohol. So I used to drink local 33 O.P. rum which
contained 76% alcohol by volume. The equivelent Bacardi was labled 150 proof
because it used the USA system. The proof point for all countries should be
pretty much the same (say +/- 2%). The original proofing system was to wet
some gunpowder with the spirit under test. If the gunpowder fired then the
spirit was prooved otherwise not.

Unless otherwise specified, you will want potable grade Neutral Spirit. This
means an alcohol/water mixture with negligable flavorings. Beware of
Laboratory grade Ethanol. It is often Benzene distilled to remove extra
water and is *NOT* suitable for drinking. I will assume you know why to
avoid denatured alcohol, If not just ask.

Salud!

-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Stephen Gunnell -----------------------------> [email-masked]
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 03:19:55 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (pete) writes:
|>
|>3) According to the article, the amount of turpenes dissolved in
|>the drink was so large that it was no longer miscible in water,
|>rather forming a milky suspension. It would be rather like drinking
|>turpentine.

Terpenes (that's with an "e") are a class of organic lipids based on the
repeating 5-carbon unit:

     CH3
     |
-CH2-CH-CH=CH-

or similar units, saturated or unsaturated at different places, joined
together in chains and/or rings.  A lot of the flavoring and aroma compounds
in plants are terpenes, including limonine (what gives lemons their odor and
flavor), geraniol (geraniums), and menthol (mint).  Cholesterol and other
sterols are also terpenes, as are vitamins A and K.

Not surprisingly, the aromatic and flavoring active ingredient in wormwood is
a terpene.  The result of the beverage is NOT like drinking turpentine.  If
you want to know exactly what it's like, try mixing anis or pastis (such as
Pernod or Ricard) with water.  Those aperitifs are absinthe without the
wormwood.

--PSW

---

From: [email-masked] (Barry Shein)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 06:28:18 GMT

As I remember the term "Purple Jesus" for a drink is bartender lingo
for what's in the buckets they dump dead drinks into all night,
including the cigarette butts etc. A favorite for a bet (if you're
right I'll drink a mouthful of Purple Jesus), aka Screaming Purple
Jesus.

The mess is usually purplish in color but I have no idea why the
"Jesus" got added to the name.

It's not surprising it got mutated to a punch made by pouring
everyting left over at the end of the night into one container, sans
the butts.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | [email-masked]          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

---

From: [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc)
Date: 24 Jul 1993 10:00:57 -0400

>to cut off his ear due to the influence of absinthe.

 Again, a fantasy based on whim, not facts. Anyone drinking enough
absinthe to ingest significant amounts of wormwood essential oils would be
drinking _several_liters_of_pure_alcohol_a_day_.

>3) According to the article, the amount of turpenes dissolved in
                                            terpenes
>rather forming a milky suspension. It would be rather like drinking

  It is the _anise_ that falls out upon dilution. Ever had anisette or
pastis? It's the same thing.

Again, pure wormwood oil is toxic, like pure essential oils of just about
anything. Wormwood is the most bitter natural substance, as far as I know,
and it cannot be ingested in large amounts.

Pierre
-- 
Pierre Jelenc
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 23:58:41 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski) writes:
|>
|>Terpenes (that's with an "e") are a class of organic lipids based on the
|>repeating 5-carbon unit:
|>
|>     CH3
|>     |
|>-CH2-CH-CH=CH-
|>
Got that a bit wrong.  The isoprene unit that is the building block of terpenes
is:

	CH3
	|
   -CH2-C=CH-CH2-

--PSW

---

From: [email-masked] (James Alexander Chokey)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 00:15:12 GMT

I have received a number of requests for the absinthe recipe I
inquired about the other day.  When I spoke to my friend to give him the
info on O.P. and U.P., he gave me a copy of the recipe.  For all those
who are curious--  here it is:

"Eau d'absinthe

In a mortar bruise:
1 oz. cinnamon bark.
1/4 oz. Angelica root.
4 oz. juniper berries.
33 oz. wormwood.
24 oz. refined sugar.

Place the above ingredients in an earthen jar and pour in:

4 oz. flower water.
2 1/2 gallons spirits (10 U.P.).

Set aside for 30 days, stirring well every day. 
Press; filter and bottle."

This recipe is, obviously, for a _large_ amount of the drink in question.
My friend quartered it.  For the spirits he's using ordinary brandy, which he
believes to be historically accurate. He is also using dried herbs.  Other
recipes/methods use tinctures or fresh herbs, but finding a half pound of
fresh wormwood is a damn sight harder than finding the dried stuff. He bought
the dried herbs at an herbalist shop in Seattle. 

	Please do not ask me for further information, as this really is
all I know.  I plan on tasting it when he comes down to visit in the fall,
and I'll let y'all know how it turned out.

---

From: [email-masked] (Bruce Tindall)
Date: 25 Jul 1993 02:48:57 GMT

>for what's in the buckets they dump dead drinks into all night,

I thought the term for that was "cold duck," a direct translation of
the German "kalte Ente," which Cassell's German-English dictionary says
means "cold punch."
 
At the University of N.C. at Chapel Hill in the mid 1970s, "PJ" or
"Purple Jesus" was grape Kool-Aid (tm) mixed with vodka, usually
made in huge quantities in plastic garbage cans.  The explanation 
of the name was that it should taste like non-alcoholic soda pop,
but after a few cups full should make the drinker cry out "Jesus!"
after realizing how inebriated s/he had become.

An authority one could contact for further elucidation of this point
is The Honorable Carl Fox, District Attorney, Pittsboro, North Carolina,
who was the campus's premier bartender and authority on mixed drinks
during that era.  Of course, now he probably prosecute you for serving
such concoctions to innocent young students.
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80

---

From: [email-masked] (Ted Frank)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 04:23:48 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Bruce Tindall) writes:
>made in huge quantities in plastic garbage cans.  

And with a jigger of the formaldehyde from the jar containing Hitler's brain,
you get a Tricky Dicky Screwdriver.  (Or was it Jack Daniels instead of
vodka?)
-- 
ted frank                 |  "You won't settle for putting Susan B. Anthony
[email-masked] |   on the new dollar then?"
the u of c law school     |   -- Justice Rehnquist, to a female attorney in 
standard disclaimers      |      a 1978 sex-discrimination case oral argument

---

From: [email-masked] (Schnizer Ansgar)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 07:54:24 GMT

Bruce Tindall,

                     [...Purple Jesus...]
 -but after a few cups full should make the drinker cry out "Jesus!"
 -after realizing how inebriated s/he had become.
                                 ^^^^ 
                                  
                   Shouldn't that be capitalized?

Ansgar
--
  .  . .  .   .  . .   ..  . . .  .  .    .    . .   . .   .  
.  .   .  . .  .  ..  .    .  .   . .   .  .     .   .   . . .
  .  . .  ..  .    . .  ..  ..   . . .   .    ..  ...   .   .

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan Papai)
Date: 25 Jul 1993 09:27:30 GMT

Bruce Tindall,
                     [...Purple Jesus...]
Ansgar Schnizer,
>                  Shouldn't that be capitalized?

I know I always cry out "Jesus" when inebriated enough to not
remember my gender.  Pronoun case rarely concerns me.

Jon "Why aren't there antinouns?" Papai

---

From: [email-masked] (Lance Murray)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 16:41:18 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski) writes:
|> 
|> In article <[email-masked]>,
|> [email-masked] (pete) writes:
|> |>
|> |>3) According to the article, the amount of turpenes dissolved in
|> |>the drink was so large that it was no longer miscible in water,
|> |>rather forming a milky suspension. It would be rather like drinking
|> |>turpentine.
|> 
|> Terpenes (that's with an "e") are a class of organic lipids based on the
|> repeating 5-carbon unit:
|> 
|>      CH3
|>      |
|> -CH2-CH-CH=CH-
|> 
|> or similar units, saturated or unsaturated at different places, joined
|> together in chains and/or rings.  A lot of the flavoring and aroma compounds
|> in plants are terpenes, including limonine (what gives lemons their odor and
|> flavor), geraniol (geraniums), and menthol (mint).  Cholesterol and other
|> sterols are also terpenes, as are vitamins A and K.
|> 
|> Not surprisingly, the aromatic and flavoring active ingredient in wormwood is
|> a terpene.  The result of the beverage is NOT like drinking turpentine.  If
|> you want to know exactly what it's like, try mixing anis or pastis (such as
|> Pernod or Ricard) with water.  Those aperitifs are absinthe without the
|> wormwood.
|> 
|> --PSW

But, just like Pernod and Ricard taste differently, I'm sure that absinthe
would be different than either. I don't remember which, but either Pernod or Ricard
used to produce alot of the Absinthe before it was prohibited, and they claim that
their pastis is almost the same, but most consumers consider this marketing hype.

Has anyone compared american style anis .vs. Pernod or Ricard? 

-lance-

---

From: [email-masked] (Robert Lee Hadden, US Geological Survey Library)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 18:27:26 GMT

I remember Purple Jesus as an alcoholic drink consumned in mass quanitites
at Atlantic Beach and Morehead City, NC, during the late 60's, when I
was a high schooler. The stuff was sweet and was used to get a cheap and quick high (not to mention an illegal one!).
        Grape Kool-aid (before Jonestown) and vodka or grain alcohol, and
assorted sliced and diced fruit pieces, aged about three hours in a cold
fridge or cooler. Taken to the beach and shared. My, My! What a revelation!

lee hadden

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 22:08:35 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Lance Murray) writes:
|>
|>But, just like Pernod and Ricard taste differently, I'm sure that absinthe
|>would be different than either. I don't remember which, but either Pernod or
|>Ricard
|>used to produce alot of the Absinthe before it was prohibited, and they claim
|> that
|>their pastis is almost the same, but most consumers consider this marketing
|>hype.

Pernod used to produce Absinthe.  After it was banned in France, their factory
in Spain still produced it, until it was banned there, too.

--PSW

---

From: [email-masked] (Tom Barrett)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 22:51:09 GMT

I was under the impression that absinthe contained some sort
of narcotic or opiate.  is this not correct?
tjb

---

From: [email-masked] (pete)
Date: 25 Jul 1993 04:17 PST

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski) writes...
` 
`In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
` 
[...a defense of absinthe...]

`|>
`|>Absinthe:
`|>   1 bottle vodka
`|>   50 g sugar
`|>   1 vial pure anise extract
`|>   1 small handful chopped licorice root
`|>   1 twig wormwood
`|> 
`|>Mix together and let sit a few days. Strain through a coffee filter. To serve,
`|>mix 1 part absinthe to 4 parts water, add ice, enjoy.
` 
`The problem wasn't with infusions of wormwood such as the recipe above.  The
`problem is when you add the wormwood before distillation, and it might also be
`the root, rather than the leaves, that is involved.  When wormwood is added
`before distallation of the liqueur is when you get your troubles.
` 
`Wormwood leaves, infused as above, are quite common and perfectly OK.
`Vermouth gets its name from the wormwood that's infused in the wine ("vermouth"
`is French or Provencal or something for "wormwood").

Yes, quite so. I'm at home now, and can give a reference for the 
Scientific American article I mentioned earlier. It's june, 1989.
It gives a commercial recipe for the preparation of absinthe using
steam distillation:

       2.5 kg dried wormwood
       5   kg anise
       5   kg fennel
      95   l  ethanol, 85%

   Mix above ingredients and steep 12 hours. Then add 

      45   l  water

   Heat, and collect 95 l  of distillate. Set aside 55 l,

   To the other 40 l of distillate, add

       1   kg Roman wormwood  }
       1   kg hyssop          }all dried, finely divided
       0.5 kg lemon balm      }

   Extract the above (with heat), and siphon off liquor, filter, and 
recombine with remaining 55 l. Dilute the result to yield 74% ethanol 
- about 100 l.

Thus this liqueur is made with part distilled and part doubly distilled
extract of wormwood. A much more powerful dose than a simple infusion.

---

From: [email-masked] (alley cat)
Date: 27 Jul 1993 14:27:57 -0400

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
>In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (pete) writes:
>>
>Could you please explain how distilling can yield _more_ product than
>infusing? This defies both common sense and all chemistry principles.
>

Note that "more powerful" does *not* equal "more product"!  ...make
more sense now?
						-allen

-- 
***************************************************************************
"There is nothing either good or bad, |  allen h. lutins
but thinking makes it so."	      |  [email-masked]
	    Shakespeare (Hamlet II:2) |  "Individualists of the world, Unite!"

---

From: [email-masked] (Ulick Stafford)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 19:13:54 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
>Pierre  (chemical engineer and Ph.D. in chemistry)

How about if the product is a volatile oil?  Heating will boil it off, and
if it is condensed with the rest this will be more.  Hydrobics like oil 
are not very well extrated by water, or even alcohols, I suspect (I don't
know the nature of the terpenes in wormwood - such as boiling point
or alcohol solubility.  I am just answering your question.)

_____________________________________________________________________________
 'There was a  master come unto the earth, | Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL       
    born in the holy land of Indiana,      | Dept of Chemical Engineering, 
 in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne'.| Notre Dame, IN 46556          
      B'fhearr liom bheith ag eitilt.      |    [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc)
Date: 27 Jul 1993 15:18:51 -0400

>Note that "more powerful" does *not* equal "more product"!  ...make

Nope. Thujone is a perfectly stable chemical, which is not changed by
heating, distilling, wetting, or whatever other physical treatment that
might occur during distillation.

Pierre
-- 
Pierre Jelenc
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Ramon Tate)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 20:29:56 GMT

>>In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (pete)
writes:

[stuff deleted]

>or alcohol solubility.  I am just answering your question.)

Many (most?) terpenes are "steam distillable", i.e. they co-distill with the
water and/or alcohol in the mixture. Anyone out there remember the label on the
turpentine can? Yes, it said "Steam Distilled"......
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramon L. Tate                   "Eschew equimagnitudinal contraincrementation."
Division of Computer                                  - Richard Shrager
  Research and Technology
National Institutes of Health
Bethesda, MD 20892    USA                   [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Malinda McCall)
Date: 27 Jul 93 20:18:23 GMT

Hmm. Seems to be a NC thing. I went to a party at Davidson in NC
and they served purple koolaid and vodka. It was NOT bartender's
slop. It was slightly toxic. :)

MM

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 00:13:00 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
|>In article <[email-masked]>
|>[email-masked] (pete) writes:
|>>
|>>Thus this liqueur is made with part distilled and part doubly distilled
|>>extract of wormwood. A much more powerful dose than a simple infusion.
|>
|>Could you please explain how distilling can yield _more_ product than
|>infusing? This defies both common sense and all chemistry principles.

Distilling yields greater *concentration* of the active terpenes from the
wormwood in the final beverage.  That defies neither common sense nor all
chemistry principles.  Separating out and concentrating selected components
of a mixture is the whole point of distillation in the first place.

--PSW

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 00:17:03 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
|>>
|>>Note that "more powerful" does *not* equal "more product"!  ...make
|>>more sense now?
|>
|>Nope. Thujone is a perfectly stable chemical, which is not changed by
|>heating, distilling, wetting, or whatever other physical treatment that
|>might occur during distillation.

Ethanol is also a perfectly stable chemical, which is not changed by heating,
distilling, wetting, or whatever other physical treatment that might occur
during distillation.  BUT, distillation can increase the concentration of
ethanol in the distillate, resulting in a "more powerful" beverage.  That is
what is being talked about here.

--PSW

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 23:14:01 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
|>
|>But that is not the case, the amount of starting material is fixed, there
|>is no concentration.

Absinthe can be made two ways.  If you do it by infusing an existing alcoholic
beverage with wormwood, then you are right--the process does not result in any
concentration of the terpenes.

If you make absinthe by infusing wine with wormwood and then distilling it,
then there CAN be concentration of the terpenes, depending of course on the
fraction of the distillate that you keep.  Oil of wormwood is quite volatile,
more so than ethanol and water, so there will tend to be proportionately more
wormwood terpenes in the distallate than there was in the original liquid.
This is the whole principle under which distillation operates.

I don't know whether the toxic effects of distilled (as opposed to infused)
absinthe are fact or myth.  But it certainly is possible that the beverage
contained a far higher concentration of wormwood essence than what is present
in infused absinthe (which is clearly harmless--witness vermouth).

--PSW

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 23:25:14 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
|>
|>Thujone is a volatile oil (bp around 80C if I remember right), and it is
|>very soluble in ethanol. Furthermore, if distillation were to extract more
|>than what is normally soluble, it would simply precipitate out in an oily
|>layer at the bottom. If something is soluble it dissolves, and if it is
|>not soluble it does not dissolve, whether it has been extracted by steam
|>distillation or not.

You are assuming that infusion of wormwood leaves in brandy results in a
saturted solution of thujone.  That isn't necessarily the case.

|>Pierre
|>
|>(How about we kill this thread?)

Fine by me.  Just stop spouting bogus organic chemistry at us.

--PSW

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 23:29:47 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
|>
|>A/ Take 10g of wormwood and put them in 1 liter of 100 proof alcohol.
|>
|>B/ Take 10g of wormwood and put them in 1 liter of 100 proof alcohol, then
|>distill to dryness.
|>
|>Both will contain the same amounts of distillable materials, but in
|>addition the _former_ will also contain non-distillable ones. You have not
|>concentrated anything. 

Distillation of alcoholic beverages is never done to dryness.  Only a particular
fraction of the distillate is kept (that containing the highest concentration
of the substance you are distilling for); the rest is discarded.

If you distill wine to dryness, you don't end up with 140 proof brandy, either.
You end up with 20 proof brandy (same alcohol concentration of wine).
Distillation of alcoholic beverages works precisely because it is NOT done
to dryness.

That is the whole point behind fractional distillation--you remove only the
fraction of the distillate containing the substance you're seeking in
concentration.

--PSW

---

From: [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc)
Date: 30 Jul 1993 12:29:52 -0400

>fraction of the distillate containing the substance you're seeking in

Let me try again:

1/ You want to make 1 liter of absinthe. 
2/ You start with 10g of wormwood.

_It_does_not_matter_what_technique_you_use_. You still end up
with no more than what was in those 10g, and if you distill instead of
infusing you end up with less because some of it is non-distillable.

The only thing that counts is how much wormwood you start with.

Pierre
-- 
Pierre Jelenc
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul S. Winalski)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 21:53:26 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
|>
|>Let me try again:
|>
|>1/ You want to make 1 liter of absinthe. 
|>2/ You start with 10g of wormwood.
|>
|>_It_does_not_matter_what_technique_you_use_. You still end up
|>with no more than what was in those 10g, and if you distill instead of
|>infusing you end up with less because some of it is non-distillable.
|>
|>The only thing that counts is how much wormwood you start with.

OK, now I see what you're getting at.  The technique I had in mind was more like
this:

1/ You want to make 1 liter of absinthe.
2/ Infuse 100g of wormwood in 10 liters of wine (or other fermentation product)
3/ Distill the 10 liters down to 1 liter

Which is the usual technique for making brandy and other eaux de vie.

--PSW

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul A. Lane)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 23:49:13 GMT

I'd avoid this stuff. I was leafing through old Scientific American issues
when I came upon an artile on absinthe. The stuff is pure poison. There's
too many great liquors out there (Chambord, Ameretto di Saronno, etc.)
to waste one's time with a killer.

Just an opinion.

Paul