Subject: Re: Q: History of Cidre?

From: [email-masked] (Arun Welch)
Date: 15 Jun 1993 11:26:30 -0400

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (ELMAR VOGT) writes:

   So: How old is cidre?

Very. No one's really sure how far back it goes.

   Was it drunk during the middle ages?

Yup. And in the early ages... Current flavors are pretty radically
different, since modern apples have changed a bunch from their
ancestors. You can occasionally find someone who grows historical
apples and make it from there.

   What's its history? (I reckon it won't go back as far as grape wine?)

Look at your local winemakers for the Papazian/Gyre mead book, it goes
into some extensive history of mead and related wines. 

   How is it made the 'traditional' way? (Casks? Bottles? Bags?)

Mash the apples, put the liquid in a cask, pitch with yeast, wait,
decant, bottle, wait, drink, wait, scrape self off floor :-).

There's a cider list on the net, but I forget what the address is.
It's probably in the list-of-lists.

...arun
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arun Welch
Lisp Systems Programmer, Lab for AI Research, Ohio State University
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Nick Maclaren)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 18:13:30 GMT

>apples and make it from there.

Cider is still produced in quantity in the western parts of England
(especially Somerset and Hereford), and many of the apple varieties
are pretty old.  Some vendors use eating or cooking apples, but the
traditional varieties still dominate the high-quality cider market.

>decant, bottle, wait, drink, wait, scrape self off floor :-).

Sorry, but that won't work.  You mash the apples and then press them;
you cannot get enough juice out by simple squeezing (unlike with grapes).
Cider presses are heavyweight objects, because even the mashed pulp is
fairly resistant to juice extraction.  I have made one using a car jack.

Also apples, like grapes, are NOT traditionally pitched with yeast, but
are fermented with only the natural yeasts on their skins.

Nick Maclaren
University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street,
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England.
Email:  [email-masked]
Tel.:   +44 223 334761
Fax:    +44 223 334679

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From: [email-masked] (Henry Troup)
Date: 18 Jun 93 14:28:02 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (ELMAR VOGT) writes:
|>A few questions concerning _cidre_ (the french apple wine) and its relation 
|>to the middle ages.
|>
|>So: How old is cidre? Was it drunk during the middle ages?
|>What's its history? (I reckon it won't go back as far as grape wine?)

The word cider derives from the Middle English / Old French sidre
(according to the Concise Oxford.)  I'm sure was drunk in the Middle
Ages, and may go back before grape wine (which is pre-historic, anyway.)
You could see if De Bello Gallico mentions it.

Cider may well be older than wine, because it can be consumed at any
point in the fermentation, from juice to finished product. I have a book
on cider, which I'll try to check.  Mead is very old, archeological digs
have recovered evidence of mead from the Bronze Age (drinking vessels
with pollen and yeast residue.)
                         
Henry Troup - [email-masked] (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
		       Big Brother is double plus ungood

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From: [email-masked] (Henry Troup)
Date: 24 Jun 93 00:17:06 GMT

>|>What's its history? (I reckon it won't go back as far as grape wine?)

I have a book: "The History and Virtues of Cyder" by
R.K. French, 1982, St. Martins Press, ISBN 0-312-37412-7

He claims that Pliny wrote of cyder, but footnotes it only to an 1888
books, "Cyder, the History, Method of Manufacture and Properties of 
this national beverage', H. Stopes.

He continues noting cyder and perry were first poor people's drinks:
St Gue'nole' (414-504) of Britanny drank perry as a penance. He claims
that this drink was made by letting sliced fruit ferment in water.
Charlemange regulated brewing such de'pense. (no footnote)

"By the seventh century Normandy cyder was apparently good enought to
be offered at a meal alongside wine, for we read that it was given to
St. Columbanus by Thierry II, King of Burgundy and Orleans."

He prints pictures of presses of antiquity, described by Pliny, Cato,
and Hero.

"By 1212 cyder was a source of income for Battle Abbey"

"Likewise the records of the exchequer make reference to land held in
Norfolk on a rent, payable in hogsheads, of 'wine made of pearmains',
which is used in these records as a synonym of 'cyder'"

"All this is evidence of cyder of wine strength ... a ton of apples
produced rather less than 100 gallons of cyder."

Enough for now, I think.

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