Subject: "Cooling" peppers with vinegar (was: Re: Antacid herbs)

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan E. Quist)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1993 15:23:39 GMT

Note to alt.folklore.herbs readers:
	I have crossposted this to rec.food.historic, because of
	a relevant discussion on hot peppers a few months ago.
	It may be appropriate elsewhere, but one extra
	group is enough for me...

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (James Paul Henley) writes:
>It is interesting that when you pickle the peppers (making them more acidic)
>they don't bother your stomach as much.  For example, Lousiana Hot Sauce
>does not bother my stomach at all, even in large "doses."  But food cooked
>with fresh peppers of almost any kind, even bell peppers, does bother
>my stomach.   Perhaps the acetic acid starts the job of breaking something
>down so that your stomach doesn't have to pump in as much acid.

It's even more interesting (to me, at least), that you mention this.
I've long found, but had no hard supporting evidence, that when I cook chilli,
I can temper some of the burning side effects by adding some vinegar
towards the last half hour of simmering.  (10 years ago, my philosophy on
chilli was that, if it didn't burn you the next day, it wasn't hot
enough.  Silly lad.)  So, if I found that I'd added too much hot peppers,
I'd add a bit of vinegar.  The pepper flavor is still there, but the
physical effects are reduced.  The vinegar also adds a pleasant tang to
the chilli, but that's just a bonus.

Anyone know the physical basis for this?
-- 
Jonathan E. Quist        [email-masked]       Lachman Technology, Incorporated
DoD #094, KotPP, KotCF '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep"                 Naperville, IL
 __       There's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet,
 \/                   followed by the words "Daddy!  Yay!"

---

From: [email-masked] (Neal Reid)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 17:09:26 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Jonathan E. Quist) writes:
|> So, if I found that I'd added too much hot peppers,
|> I'd add a bit of vinegar.  The pepper flavor is still there, but the
|> physical effects are reduced.  The vinegar also adds a pleasant tang to
|> the chilli, but that's just a bonus.
|> 
|> Anyone know the physical basis for this?

My understanding is that the 'heat' in the peppers comes from an alkali.
Adding vinegar (an acid) neutralizes it somewhat.  Hence the use of
yogurt (lactic acid) so common with east Indian cooking or sour cream
with Mexican etc

---

From: [email-masked] (Kenneth W.B. Cater)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 18:35:59 GMT

>yogurt (lactic acid) so common with east Indian cooking or sour cream

Just testing....if anyone gets this please mail me at
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Sandy Silverman)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 20:52:18 GMT

A look in the Merck index reveals that capsaicin, the "hot" chemical in peppers,
is not soluble in cold water but is soluble in ethanol.  It is not alkaline.
My guess is that vinegar helps to dissolve the stuff so it is more uniformly
distributed in the dish.
--
Sanford Silverman                      >Opinions expressed here are my own<
American Cyanamid  
[email-masked], [email-masked]     "Yeast is Best"

---

From: [email-masked] (Clay Luther)
Date: 8 Jul 93 22:04:44 GMT

>yogurt (lactic acid) so common with east Indian cooking or sour cream

Well, actually, the heat in peppers is caused by a chemical called capsasin.
The chemical "adheres" to your nerve endings and causes the painful sensation.

Milk products (any milk product) cause the capsasin to release from your
nerve endings, thus effectively stopping the irratation.  It is not quite
understood why this occurs.

Therefore, the heat in capsicums (peppers) is not caused by an acid or an
alkali. 

Why adding vinegar to chili would "lessen" the effect of the capsasin, I do
not know without researching my sources.

Any good gourmet book on peppers will discuss this in detail.
--
Clay Luther                              [email-masked]
Software Engineer                        Kodak Health Imaging Systems
(214) 994-1377                           Fax (214) 994-1310
"They're not dead.  They're just metaphysically challenged." - Crow T. Robot

---

From: [email-masked] (Sue D. Nymme)
Date: 11 Jul 1993 16:35:49 GMT

>yogurt (lactic acid) so common with east Indian cooking or sour cream

    Vinegar breaks down capsaicin, the active "hot" ingredient in hot 
peppers. I'm not sure, but I don't believe it's as simple as an acid
neutralizing an alkali. 
    Capsaicin is oil-soluble, not water-soluble, so oil-based liquids and
foods (like dairy products) are good at cooling the hot. If you have just
eaten something that's too hot for you, drinking water doesn't help much,
because the oil-soluble capsaicin isn't washed away by the water very much.
Drinking milk, OTOH, helps cleanse your mouth of the "hot" much better.
This is the basis of serving dairy products with hot foods.

    IMEO (*), anyone who would dilute their hot stuff with vinegar or dairy
products is just a WIMP. :-)

sdn
----
(*) IMEO: In My Exalted Opinion -- opposite of IMHO.

---

From: [email-masked] (James Paul Henley)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 03:44:57 GMT

>This is the basis of serving dairy products with hot foods.

My wife, who is Chinese, says that they always use hot tea to soothe a
burning mouth.  As you said, they say that cold water doesn't help.
I have always relied on milk to put out the flames, but in most provinces
of China, dairy products are not part of their diet.  (there are some
exceptions though)

She worked at an orphanage that had a Szechuan chef.  I ate there one
time, and they used cayenne peppers as _vegetables_ instead of as 
seasoning.

They also drink hot tea to offset the effects of eating too much fat.
I'm not sure if they mean that it help avoid indigestion, or if it actually
prevents other ill effects of eating too much fat.  They way they put it
is that the tea "eats" the fat.  There is a _myth_ that the Chinese don't
eat much fat.  Not true.

James P. Henley Jr.
Department of Chemical Engineering
Auburn University

---

From: [email-masked] (Barry Shein)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 07:52:14 GMT

I've found that sprinkling salt on your tongue soothes the burn caused
by hot peppers. Fellow diners who I have suggested this to in a fix
have generally concurred even though skeptical at first.

Most likely this has nothing to do with deactivating the pepper, I'll
guess it just kind of overloads your tongue's nerves (don't take that
description too literally.) But if it works what difference does it
make? This might explain the popularity of salty tortilla chips and
salsa, you can kind of find a balance in your mouth.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | [email-masked]          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

---

From: [email-masked] (James Ellis Shapiro)
Date: 12 Jul 1993 07:28:35 GMT

<Please excuse a first posting effort.....>

It's funny that some would use salt or tea or vinegar to kill the
effects of the hot pod on a tongue... I, at least in the past, have
always found that a little sugar on the tongue ended the monentary
pain. I've never found a solution for the sides of the throat, however.

Jim Shapiro

---

From: [email-masked] (S. Kleinman)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 09:32:51 GMT

>of China, dairy products are not part of their diet.  (there are some
Some time ago someone posted words to the effect that capsaicin was
soluble in hot liquid.  That might be why tea works.

-- 
    Scott Kleinman                                     [email-masked]

                   Tu le connais, lecteur, ce monstre delicat,
                    - Hypocrite lecteur, - mon semblable, - mon frere!

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan E. Quist)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 19:06:01 GMT

>>|> the chilli, but that's just a bonus.
...
>products is just a WIMP. :-)

That's fine if you don't mind eating alone...  I decided if I was going to
bother making chilli, my wife and daughter would be able to enjoy it
as well.  To my daughter's credit, she was eating at 10 months what most
of my friends passed by as "too hot". :-()

-- 
Jonathan E. Quist        [email-masked]       Lachman Technology, Incorporated
DdD<zero-neuf-quatre>,CdlPP, CL450 "Gleep"                 Naperville, IL
 __       There's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet,
 \/                   followed by the words "Papa!  Je parle en Francais!"

---

From: [email-masked] (Scott Fisher)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 06:25:01 GMT

>My guess is that vinegar helps to dissolve the stuff so it is more uniformly

I've noticed that rubbing rice vinegar on the lips will nullify some
of the tingle of too much hot chile oil, but this is no doubt due to 
the vinegar dispersing the oil.

I looked up this issue in Andrews[1], and came across a footnote on p. 127:

"In November 1983, I gathered habaneros and removed the seeds in order
to save them, carelessly forgetting to wear rubber gloves.  Such a failure
usually results in hands that burn and continue to burn every part of your
body taht you touch for a day or two.  Earlier that day I had been 
cleaning seashells in a plastic container filled with a concentrated
household chlorine bleach.  On an impulse, I dipped my burning hands 
into the chlorine, then rinsed them immediately.  I observed that this
wash in a 5.25% aqueous solution of sodium hypochlorite, NaOCl, followed
by rinsing in water, completely eliminated the irritant effect.

"Dr. Tom Mabry of the Department of Botany, University of Texas at
Austin, suggested that the alkaline bleach ionizes the phenolic hydroxyl
group in the active ingredients, all of which are phenolic amides
(e.g., dihydrocapsaicin), making the compounds water soluble; at the same
time, the ionized phenolic ring in each compound would be readily 
oxidized by the bleach, thereby altering the structures and properties
of the compounds."

One interesting and fairly consistent fact about capsaicin is that
the burn lasts for approximately six minutes, *as long as it's in 
the mouth*.  The reason for this is that capsaicin promotes additional
salivation and peristalsis (one of its beneficial qualities, as both
of these factors aid digestion), and the extra saliva produced washes
the capsaicin off the inner surfaces of the mouth.  On the other hand,
as Andrews says, leaving pepper "juice" on your hands (or conversely,
transferring it to other parts of the body) will result in a burn
that continues until the last of the capsaicin is washed off.  With
very hot peppers such as habaneros, serranos, Thais or even poblanos,
the capsaicin can be concentrated enough to cause burns on the forehead
or cheeks, and what it does to the eyes is unimaginable.

Notes
1.  Peppers, the Domesticated Capsicums, Jean Andrews, University of
Texas Press, 1984, ISBN 0-292-76523-1.

-- 
The mailer treats messages outside Megatest much the way Calvin treats baths.  
Don't trust its interpretation of the path; use [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Bill Venables)
Date: 13 Jul 93 13:08:25 +0930

>>>>> "Sue" == Sue D. Nymme <[email-masked]> writes:

Sue> Vinegar breaks down capsaicin, the active "hot" ingredient in hot
Sue> peppers.  I'm not sure, but I don't believe it's as simple as an acid
Sue> neutralizing an alkali.  

This is interesting, but there is a traditional North Australian bush
condiment called "Chilli Vinegar" that seems to go against it.  You make it
by gathering the small, fiercely hot, wild "birds eye" chillis and soaking
them in vinegar for an indefinite period.  It may be more tame than the
chillis by themselves, but the colloquial name for it is still "paint
stripper", though!

Bill
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Bill Venables, Department of Statistics,          Telephone: +61 8 303 3026 
The University of Adelaide,                       Facsimile: +61 8 232 5670
South AUSTRALIA.     5005.            Email: [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael A. Shaffer)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 17:14:51 GMT

Just a word to the wise.

[Disclaimer: As this is tangential to the subject of this list any
long discussion should be carried on off line]

Pepper sprays are useful as part of a "comprehensive security plan" or
in areas where they may be the only legal defensive weapon however like
any other weapon they have limitations with which the user should be
familiar.

Some examples are

- Some have flammable carriers which may be undesirable in some situations.
  Non-flammable versions are available.

- Range is limited to a range of about 3 or 4 ft up to possibly 20 ft.
  The effect of being too far from the perp. is obvious however they
  can also be ineffective at too close a range because of the minimal
  atomization. Try to avoid having to use it at near zero range.

- Be careful when using indoors. If you are exposed to the cloud you
  will also be affected in the same way as the perp.

- Out of doors (or around electric fans) be sure to account for wind
  effects. A breeze can carry the cloud away from the perp. and toward
  something you would rather not spray.

This is not to say they are not useful. Just remember to always be
familiar with your weapon's strengths, weaknesses and limitations.

				mike

---

From: [email-masked] (John McHarry)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 01:56:03 GMT

[email-masked] (Bill Venables) writes:

>them in vinegar for an indefinite period. 

I thought that red peppers were from the Americas.  That would make them
more like escaped or ferile (or the botanical equivalent).  If there is a
native pepper that would be most interesting.

Pepper  sauce with a vinegar base is quite common in these parts.  Tabasco
comes to mind.  One can also put the things in vodka and get something
that permeates the whole drink; in fact, they seem hotter that way.  I
think that  the active ingredients likely are soluble and that is the way
such sauces work.

---

From: [email-masked] (Bill Venables)
Date: 15 Jul 93 13:30:51 +0930

>>>>> "John" == John McHarry <[email-masked]> writes:

John> [email-masked] (Bill Venables) writes:

> condiment called "Chilli Vinegar" that seems to go against it.  You make
> it by gathering the small, fiercely hot, wild "birds eye" chillis and
> soaking them in vinegar for an indefinite period.

John> I thought that red peppers were from the Americas.  That would make
John> them more like escaped or ferile (or the botanical equivalent).  If
John> there is a native pepper that would be most interesting.

They are indeed feral, but they have been growing in the wild in Australia
for so long I don't think they bear much resemblance to modern cultivated
chillis.  They were brought to Australia in the gold rushes of the 1890s.

BTW they are "chillis", not "peppers".  (You 'merrkins!)  There *is* a true
native pepper in North Australia, and it's called - wait for it - "pepper"!
Pepper (as opposed to chilli) comes from the East Indies (now Indonesia)
but the natural range of the spice extends into tropical Australia as well.

Bill.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jack Campin)
Date: 15 Jul 93 18:17:14 GMT

> any other weapon they have limitations with which the user should be
[technophile gunspeak deleted]

What Michael Shaffer *didn't* mention among those limitations is that
capsaicin irritation can cause permanent blindness.  I would *hope* that,
even wherever he's from, that kind of mutilation would be regarded as a
disproportionate response to an ordinary robbery and legally prohibited.

-- 
-- Jack Campin -- Room 1.36, Department of Computing & Electrical Engineering,
   Mountbatten Building, Heriot-Watt University, Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
TEL: 031 449 5111 ext 4192    FAX: 031 451 3431    INTERNET: [email-masked]
JANET: possibly backwards    BITNET: via UKACRL    BANG!net: via mcsun & uknet

---

From: [email-masked] (Aimee Yermish)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 20:36:52 GMT

>disproportionate response to an ordinary robbery and legally prohibited.

Not to get too far off the track, but there are plenty of other
circumstances other than 'ordinary robbery.'  If someone is
threatening you with deadly force (a knife or gun), or if there are
several someones, or if you're being raped, many people would not
think it a disproportionate response to take a chance of blinding the
attacker.  And, as a friend of my husband's once said, when asked why
he carried a sword-cane (he's a fencer, and they're illegal in his
state), "I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six."

However, I don't think capsaicin sprays or the like are a good choice
for self-defense.  Unless you get a direct hit from the perfect range
and angle (not likely under the stressful situation), you stand a good
chance of just pissing off the attacker and making the situation
worse.  Get a good martial arts training, which can't be taken from
you or used against you, and which will teach you to avoid, defuse,
and escape dangerous situations.

--Aimee
-- 
Aimee Yermish			Society for Interactive Literature West
[email-masked]	415-329-1984 (before 11pm Pacific time)
Coming Thanksgiving weekend to Silicon, San Jose, CA -- *Stopover*
Interstellar intrigue, pirates, bar fights, lots of aliens -- ask me about it!

---

From: [email-masked] (Eugene Szedenits Jr.)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 21:48:21 GMT

>disproportionate response to an ordinary robbery and legally prohibited.

Interested readers may wish to check past messages in rec.martial-arts
where the INeffectiveness of pepper sprays was discussed at length.

---

From: [email-masked] (Scott Fisher)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 00:31:20 GMT

>native pepper in North Australia, and it's called - wait for it - "pepper"!

There's a movement afoot among chile-heads to adopt the Spanish
spelling of the word, "chile," partly to differentiate it from
the American word "chili," which means a kind of stew using
meat, tomatoes, chiles, and sometimes beans.  

The confusion between pepper (piper nigrum) and chiles (capsicum sp.)
arose in 1492, when Columbus met people who weren't Indians and traded
them for a quantity of spice that wasn't pepper.  The black pepper
(piper nigrum) was, in fact, one of the primary economic driving forces
behind Columbus' journey -- black pepper was worth its weight in gold
in the late 15th century, and was counted out grain by grain.  Black
pepper, BTW, is related to the fig tree, and the word pepper comes 
from the Hindu word peepul, for the sacred fig tree.

Columbus encountered the Arawak people (and later the Caribs) in what
is now the Bahamas.  They called capsicums aji (pronounced ah-HEE, 
much like the noise you make when you bite into one unexpectedly).
The Aztecs, who spoke the Nahuatl language, called them chil.  As the
Spanish began to realize that aji and pepper were different things,
they adopted the local word, gave it a Hispanic ending, and called
the things chiles.  Oddly enough, in Peru, the word aji is still 
used today, in spite of the fact that the Quechua word for capsicums
is uchu.  

Peppers (capsicums) originated in South America, in an area now more
or less encompassed by Uruguay and Bolivia.  Peppers were first cultivated
approximately 7000 BC, and were among the first cultivated plants in the
New World.  The prevalent theory on cultivation of plants by humans
seems to point to simultaneous development of cultivation at approximately
the same time (give or take a milennium) by people living in such
diverse parts of the world -- say, modern-day Urugay and Iraq, for 
example -- that it's now believed that cultivation of plants was a
spontaneous development at these different cultures.

>but the natural range of the spice extends into tropical Australia as well.

Making matters worse is the allspice plant, which produces a grain
that looks like a large, brown peppercorn.  The Spanish called this
pimiento, and used the same word for certain varieties of capsicums,
including the ones they cut into strips, pickled, and put into cured
green olives.  

In more modern pepper news, we had two varieties with dinner last night,
both of them roasted and cut into strips (rajas) to be served with grilled
salmon.  The Anaheim (a mild, long green chile suitable for making
chile verde, quesadillas or chiles rellenos) was sweet, rich, and just
slightly piquant.  The Fresnos were out of this world, very sweet,
grassy, and *incredibly hot*.  I made the mistake of biting into a piece
that still had a vein attached.  I've eaten habaneros (in fact, we're
growing them), and I've eaten Thai bird chiles, and frankly, these 
Fresnos are pretty close.  I can't wait till the habaneros ripen...

--Scott

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael A. Shaffer)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 16:48:58 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Jack Campin) writes:
|> [email-masked] (Michael A. Shaffer) wrote:
|> > Pepper sprays are useful as part of a "comprehensive security plan" or
|> > in areas where they may be the only legal defensive weapon however like
|> > any other weapon they have limitations with which the user should be
|> > familiar.
|> [technophile gunspeak deleted]

Play nice now.

|> What Michael Shaffer *didn't* mention among those limitations is that
|> capsaicin irritation can cause permanent blindness.  I would *hope* that,

Hmm... another limitation that I was not aware of. Thanks.

It was not and is not my intention to get into a philosophical or
religious discussion of the proper response to crime. My intent was
to hopefully prevent people from getting into deep water due to
lack of information.

If you want to get into a discussion about response to criminal
activity, self defense, guns (hey you brought it up not me) I
can suggest a couple of appropriate forums. This newgroup is not
the right place for it.

I will also point out that pepper sprays have been used frequently
apparently without this result. I suppose I could ask the perp.
whether he/she prefers the Bear Gaurd or the Remington but it
doesn't seem too practical. So it comes down to is a 10% chance
of blindness or a 90% chance of death a more appropriate response.

My concerns are (in order)
1. The safety of myself, my family and innocent citizens
2. Minimizing legal discomfort
	.
	.
	.
n. The comfort and safety of the criminal.

Others have different priorities and that is fine. In my post I
purposely avoided trying to avoid advocating a particular method
of response. I hoped that the reader was intelegent enough to
make his/her own strategic and tactical decisions given enough
facts.

|> even wherever he's from, that kind of mutilation would be regarded as a
|> disproportionate response to an ordinary robbery and legally prohibited.

hmmm... I better check my posts more closely. I don't remember mentioning
robbery in the first place. Anyway. Check your local laws. In some
(an increasing number) states self defense is illegal or at least
a good excuse for persecution. However some readers probably live in
states where self defense is still allowed. So Caveat Defender.

|> -- 
|> -- Jack Campin -- Room 1.36, Department of Computing & Electrical Engineering,
|>    Mountbatten Building, Heriot-Watt University, Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
|> TEL: 031 449 5111 ext 4192    FAX: 031 451 3431    INTERNET: [email-masked]
|> JANET: possibly backwards    BITNET: via UKACRL    BANG!net: via mcsun & uknet

The thing I find so ammusing is that the pepper sprays have been
played up by the "be kind to criminals" types as the humane form
of self defense and hear they are bashing it too. Kind makes you
say hmmm...

				mike

---

From: [email-masked] (Omar Stradella)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 16:09:24 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Scott Fisher) writes:
|> In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Bill Venables) writes:

[Very interesting historical note, deleted]
 
|> the things chiles.  Oddly enough, in Peru, the word aji is still 
|> used today, in spite of the fact that the Quechua word for capsicums
|> is uchu.  
|> 
|> Peppers (capsicums) originated in South America, in an area now more
|> or less encompassed by Uruguay and Bolivia.  Peppers were first cultivated
|> approximately 7000 BC, and were among the first cultivated plants in the
|> New World.  The prevalent theory on cultivation of plants by humans
|> seems to point to simultaneous development of cultivation at approximately
|> the same time (give or take a milennium) by people living in such
|> diverse parts of the world -- say, modern-day Urugay and Iraq, for 
|> example -- that it's now believed that cultivation of plants was a
|> spontaneous development at these different cultures.

Not only in Peru !, also in Argentina (the are between Uruguay and
Bolivia is part of Argentina) we call them aji and probably they
are called the same way in Uruguay, since we share practically the
same language. I will ask some Uruguayans.

Omar.

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael A. Shaffer)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 17:09:05 GMT

>purposely avoided trying to avoid advocating a particular method

Should have been "tried to avoid". Slow them fingers down mikie.

				mike