Subject: Origin of Pizza

From: [email-masked] (Operator)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 16:09:49 GMT

I'm trying to settle a question that a friend and I dissagree on.

Where is Pizza from?
Information sources?

I remember hearing it was the invention of italian americans, who then 
brought it back to italy, but my friend is sure that it comes to us
striaght from italy.

Any help would be greatly appreciated,
Steve

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From: [email-masked] (Bill Stuart)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 02:03:49 GMT

>brought it back to italy, but my friend is sure that it comes to us
	It was originally a Greco-roman invention. It is hard to say who
came up with it first, but it looks like it was a greek thing. The
original pizza was kind of neat. Tomato sauce was only a recent addition.

---

From: [email-masked] (Henry Troup)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 20:15:17 GMT

pissaladiere, onions stewed in olive oil with anchovies and black olives
on yeast dough. The Portugese still eat it that way.

-- 
Henry Troup - [email-masked] (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
	 "Some will die for fortune, some will die for pleasure,
		      but only lovers die for love"

---

From: [email-masked] (Stephen G. Smith)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 17:56:04 GMT

>Any help would be greatly appreciated,

According to my father, who was in Naples during WWII (1944-1945), the
Neapolitans had something that they called "pizza".  It was a flour and
water paste spread thin, with tomato paste smeared on the top, and left
to dry in the sun for a few hours.  Flies and air pollution were
apparently part of it ....  He still gags when somebody mentions
"pizza".  Note that at this time, Naples had just had a major war move
through it, and things were in a real mess.

I have heard (no sources, unfortunately) that what we now call "pizza"
(bread dough crust, tomato sauce, cheese, and "goodies" baked in a very
hot oven) was invented by Swiss mountain climbers in the 1950's.
Sounds bogus to me, but that's the way I heard it.

-- 
Steve Smith                     Agincourt Computing
[email-masked]                  (301) 681 7395
"Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense."

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From: [email-masked] (Sandra Loosemore)
Date: 10 Sep 1993 15:05:14 -0400

Local lore claims that the pizza was introduced to America here in New
Haven back in the 1930's by Frank Pepe.  Interestingly enough, Pepe
was supposedly allergic to both tomatoes and cheese, which is why the
traditional New Haven pizza doesn't come with either tomato sauce or
mozzarella unless you ask for them specially.  Pepe's classic pizza is
a white clam pie: just olive oil, lots of garlic, grated hard cheese,
and fresh clams on a thin, chewy crust baked on an open fire, with
bits of ash clinging to it.  Yum!

-Sandra

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From: [email-masked] (Gabe Helou)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 06:23:16 GMT

Bill Stuart ([email-masked]) wrote:

: In a previous article, [email-masked] (Operator) says:
: >Where is Pizza from?
: >Information sources?
: >
: 	It was originally a Greco-roman invention. It is hard to say who
: came up with it first, but it looks like it was a greek thing. The
: original pizza was kind of neat. Tomato sauce was only a recent addition.

Baking round, flat loaves of yeast bread with stuff on top is an ancient
Middle Eastern food.  I have no idea how ancient, but very possibly as
long as they've been baking bread.  A very simple version includes
nothing more than a little olive oil and spices (m'na'eesh).

--
--- -- -  -   -    -     -      -       -        -         <[email-masked]>
Cross country skiing is great if you live in a small country.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan E. Quist)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 19:45:21 GMT

>Haven back in the 1930's by Frank Pepe.  Interestingly enough, Pepe

Local lore around Chicago claims that Ike Sewell introduced pizza to
America in the 1920's...

(Why do I have the feeling this lore is like that of so many families who,
like my own, "legitimized" the presence of native American DNA in the
family gene pool by explaining that the woman in question was an
"Indian pricess" or "daughter of an Ojibwa tribal chief"?  :')

Subject: Re: Origin of Pizza
Organization: Mystery Spot BBS, Royal Oak, Michigan, USA
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 06:23:16 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]
Lines: 18

>nothing more than a little olive oil and spices (m'na'eesh).

One of the stories I heard was that it was a byproduct of the Roman occupation
in the middle east.  The Roman soldiers (so the story goes) found pita
bread so unpalatable plain that they poured olive oil on it (and
presumably spices, if such could be had on a centurian's wages).

Makes one wonder about the similarity of "pita" and "pizza" - the latter
could presumably be an Italianization of the former pronounced with
a particularly expectorant "t"...

-- 
Jonathan E. Quist        [email-masked]       Lachman Technology, Incorporated
DoD #094, KotPP, KotCF '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep"                 Naperville, IL
 __       There's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet,
 \/        unless the state declares you morally unfit to be a parent.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan E. Quist)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 19:51:59 GMT

Well, my earlier rumour about Chicago's claim to the birth of pizza
was premature.  Ike Sewell's Pizzeria Uno claims to be the birthplace
of deep dish pizza.

>Sounds bogus to me, but that's the way I heard it.

Definitely bogus.  I just called Uno's, and they opened their doors
in 1943.  (Good Lord!  It's their Golden Anniversary year.  I'd best
make a pilgrimmage!  :')

(For those who expect to get to Chicago, look them up.  I can't say they
have the absolute best pizza, but it is darned good, and worth a try.)
-- 
Jonathan E. Quist        [email-masked]       Lachman Technology, Incorporated
DoD #094, KotPP, KotCF '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep"                 Naperville, IL
 __       There's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet,
 \/        unless the state declares you morally unfit to be a parent.

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael Johnston -- Michael's Music Service)
Date: 14 Sep 1993 01:31:49 GMT

My understanding is that pizza has roots back to early days of Roman rule.
One of the armies, near the sea, took the bread dough that they usually made
into bread rubbed with olive oil and put some small fish, anchovies or the
like on the dough and oil and baked it. 

Later, this turned into focaccia with cheese added but the cheese was not
original, and tomatoes are a late arrival.  I still make the old style pizza
with anchovies and olive oil and it is spectacular!  It is *required*, though,
to soak the anchovie filets in milk for 30 minutes to remove some of the salt.
Most people who "don't like anchovies" really just don't like the intense
saltiness that comes with the modern canned ones.  Make your favorite dough
and keep it thin.  Toss it or roll it (whole wheat is easier, IMHO) then put
it on your peel (remember the corn meal for ball bearings!), then brush it
with olive oil that tastes great (top quality) and scattered on the chopped
anchovies.  Bake that sucker and watch people line up!  You can eat it
with a salad of lettuce and herbs (inc. garlic) and some vino de campagna or 
vin de pays or cheap red wine, if you prefer!  HA!  Pretensiousness does
not surround the origin of pizza.

Ooooh, I love to write about food.  I am now hungry. <g>  We'll have this
tomorrow night!  I do add tomatoes to the salad and artichokes, too,
because I like them, even though it aint historic. 

Cheers!
Michael

If anybody wants the details on measurements or a few recommended books on
the baked bread/focacia/pizza, just holler.
-- 
MICHAEL'S MUSIC SERVICE   | CIS: 70731,3403                   | Michael Johnston
4146 Sheridan Drive       | [email-masked]          |       and  
Charlotte, NC  28205-5654 | (704) 567-1066   (800) 438-4129   |    John Apple  
** Brother Ambrose, Friars Minor **     ** Guillaume de Pomme, Maitre d'Orgue **

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From: [email-masked] (Bill Stuart)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 03:28:33 GMT

>nothing more than a little olive oil and spices (m'na'eesh).

	But all those years ago, rome covered the middle east...?

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From: [email-masked] (Diane Duane)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 12:28:07 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, Michael Johnston -- Michael's Music Service 
 >([email-masked]) writes:

You can take it one step further.  Somebody back then (or
further back yet) was making bread, and had a bit left
over that wouldn't fit in that baking.  So instead of
wasting it, they rolled it out flat and baked it a little
later.  But it was kind of plain...so they tried putting
some herbs on it.  That was better.  Then they thought of
putting oil on top as well (or dunking the herbed flat
bread *in* oil while eating it:  a lot of foods got dunked
in olive oil while being eaten, at that point).  Then
doubtless somebody else said,  "Now what if you put
anchovies / cheese / [fill in the blank:  whatever they
had a little left over of] on it...."  And *much* later,
tomatoes... (Elizabeth David suggests that that idea
migrated sideways to Italy from France, via the
"pissaladiere", typically made in Nice).  -- D.  

    Diane E. Duane / Potter's Pasture / Kilbride / Wicklow / Ireland
      "A little science...a little magic...a little chicken soup."
      Internet:  [email-masked] / Compuserve: 73200,3112
   Formerly:  [email-masked]  (this address expires 1 Sep '93)

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From: [email-masked] (Jonathan E. Quist)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 17:51:12 GMT

>>like on the dough and oil and baked it. 

More likely no baking was involved - for goodness sake, it was the army,
not a country club!  :')

>later.  But it was kind of plain...so they tried putting

Huh?  Isn't that how all bread was made back then?
Look at traditional bread in the middle east, and it's remarkable
how similar pita is to a pizza crust.
-- 
Jonathan E. Quist        [email-masked]       Lachman Technology, Incorporated
DoD #094, KotPP, KotCF '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep"                 Naperville, IL
 __       There's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet,
 \/        unless the state declares you morally unfit to be a parent.

---

From: [email-masked] (Diane Duane)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1993 18:29:01 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, Jonathan E. Quist ([email-masked]) writes:

(quoting someone else....)

>>>One of the armies, near the sea...

>More likely no baking was involved - for goodness sake, it was the army,

Uh...you don't need an oven, or a fixed position or
facility of any kind, to bake. The two favorite ways for an
army on the move to do it: (a) On any flat metal plate over
a fire (or on any flat stone, which you rake the embers over
and then push them away when it's heated): even now the Welsh
and Irish do it this way, the iron plate being called a
"bakestone".  Apparently this is the preferred way to do
chapatis for travelers in India -- they use heated hubcaps or
whatever else is available. Either unleavened or leavened
breads can be done this way. (In Ireland, soda bread baked
this way is characterized as "farl" rather than "cake".)
Anyway, the Roman issue mess tin would have worked for this
(it was bronze). (b) In a covered metal pot: in the UK and
Ireland this is called a Bastable oven -- coals are raked up
around it and piled on the (concave) lid, ensuring even heat.
This style of "oven" occurs in all materials from clay
upwards, all over the world.

>Huh?  Isn't that how all bread was made back then?

No, not at all.

>how similar pita is to a pizza crust.

True, but they arrive at a similar result from entirely
different directions. The physics of pita is pretty
different from that of oven-baked bread.  It depends only
partially on the yeast leavening:  the rest of the work is
done by steam, inflating the pita and separating the
layers. The quality of pizza crust is wholly dependent on
the yeast leavening and the expansion of the CO2 during
baking. 

Best! D

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael Johnston -- Michael's Music Service)
Date: 26 Sep 1993 16:33:24 GMT

As promised, the story of early pizza:

It has been argued that the Italians did not "invent" pizza. Perhaps this is 
technically true, but there can be no denying that Italy was most certainly the 
seedbed out of which the concept would flourish to the fullest. In one form or 
another, pizza has been a basic part of the Italian diet since the Stone Age, 
and Italians have devised more ways of interpreting the dish than anyone else.

Italy's culinary heritage is a unique melange of contributions from other 
cultures and her own intrinsic, fiercely regional tastes. Pizza, more than any 
other preparation common to all parts of the country, exemplifies how outside 
influences were assimilated and absorbed into Italian cuisine.

Italian pizza evolved from the basic concepts initiated by two different 
cultures: the Etruscans in the north and the Greeks in the south. The older 
style of the two was brought to northern Italy by the Etruscans, from the 
Levant area of Asia Minor. This first form of pizza was a crude bread that was 
baked beneath the stones of the fire. Once cooked, it was seasoned with a 
variety of different toppings and used instead of plates and utensils to sop up 
broth or gravies. This notion of a flavored bread as a side dish evolved into 
what is now know as focaccia in Italy. Several hundred years later, when the 
Greeks colonized the southern part of Italy, the second concept was introduced. 
The Greeks took the idea of bread as an edible serving dish one step further 
than the Etruscans. They didn't flavor or top the bread after it cooked: They 
baked the topping directly on the bread itself, and the topped bread took the 
place of the main course. This idea paved the way for the pizza as a meal.

In the end, the Romans embraced both the Etruscan and the Greek concepts, and 
they went on to create an entire repertoire of dishes based on these early 
prototypes. As a result, all over Italy today there are literally hundreds of 
styles and variations of pizza, which vary from region to region and town to 
town. And as far as most people are concerned, pizza was "invented" by the 
Italians.

-----------------------------------------

The earliest pizza prototypes originated when Neolithic tribes first gathered 
wild grains, made them into a crude batter, and cooked them on the hot stones 
of their campfires. The "bread" was filled and eaten (just like a Mexican 
tortilla, which also originated in this era). It was not until about 1000 BC, 
when the Etruscans arrived in the northern and central parts of Italy from Asia 
Minor, that there was any improvement or change in this method.

The Etruscans were reputed consumers of a thick gruel known as "puls" or 
"pulmentum." This is the same mush that later sustained the Roman army through 
its many campaigns and that became the basis of several northern Italian 
staples, including polenta and pasta. The Etruscans baked this mush on stones 
beneath the ashes of the fire, and the resulting cakes were seasoned with oil 
and herbs and eaten with broth or meat. The Romans quickly adopted this 
Etruscan ashcake and called it "focaccia" (from the Latin _panus focus_ meaning 
fireplace floor bread).

The Romans introduced focaccia to all of the lands they conquered; such 
flatbreads as the fougasse or fouace of France and even the hearthcakes of 
Scotland are related to it. They spread focaccia all over Italy as well, making 
it the oldest and most universal of all styles of pizza.

--------------------------

Italians may have made pizza famous, but they certainly did not invent the 
concept of the dish. Here, the debt is clearly owed to the Greeks.

The Greeks, who occupied the southernmost regions of Italy for over 600 years 
(from about 730 BC to 130 BC), were the greatest bakers of ancient times. They 
had learned their craft from the Egyptians (the first great bakers) so well 
that they far excelled their teachers. Their methods for refining different 
flours and their baking technology, which included the use of ovens and special 
molds for breads, were the most advanced in the ancient world. Greek breads, 
flavored with seeds, oils, herbs, spices, wine, honey, and eggs, came in all 
shapes and sizes, and some were even leavened, by means of a primitive 
sourdough starter method discovered by the Egyptians. The Greeks also 
instituted the idea of using bread as an edible plate for a meal. Flat, round 
breads were baked with an assortment of "relishes" (in ancient Greek, a relish 
meant anything spread or baked on bread), such as oils, onions, garlic, herbs, 
olives, vegetables, and cheese, on top. A rim of crust was left around the 
bread to serve as a kind of handle.

One of the best accounts of ancient Greek "pizza" -- what it was like and how 
it was eaten -- comes down to us in this passage from Plato's _Republic_:
    
         They will provide meal from their barley and flour from
         their wheat and kneading and cooking these [". . . they
         (the cakes) will also have relishes -- salt . . . and of
         olives and cheese; and onions and greens . . . ."] they
         will serve noble cakes and loaves on some arrangement 
         of reeds and clean leaves, and reclined on rustic beds
         strewn with bryony and myrtyle, they will feast with
         their children, drinking of their wine thereto, garlanded
         and singing hymns to the gods in pleasant fellowship."
         
The seeds planted in Naples and the surrounding southern Italian regions by the 
Greeks, however, only served as the impetus for the progression of pizza
dishes that was to follow.

----------------------------------

The Neapolitans, who have historically been impoverished, were also most 
ingenious at living well, eating well, and making the most out of very little. 
(The earliest Greek ancestor of Neapolitan pizza was called "plakuntos," which 
means flat, baked bread. When the Romans adopted this dish, it became known as 
"placenta" in Latin. In antiquity, placenta was a dish of much renown. It was a 
pie made of the finest flours, a topping of cheese mixed with honey, and a 
seasoning of bay leaves and oil. Placenta was baked on the floor of the hearth 
alongside the burning wood. The name pizza comes from a southern corruption of 
the Latin adjective "picea" (peechia), which described the black tar-like 
coating underneath the placenta as a result of the burning ashes.) Neapolitan 
pizza made the most of the cheese, herbs, vegetables, fish, and poor meat 
supply that was available. The one new element the Neapolitans introduced to 
pizza in the eighteenth century, and which would forever change the face of 
this venerable dish, was, of course, the tomato.

It took nearly two centuries for the Italians to build up enough nerve to eat 
the "pomidoro" (golden apple). The original variety, brought back from the New 
World in the mid-sixteenth century from Peru and Mexico by way of Spain, was 
thought to be poisonous and was grown in gardens as an ornamental fruit (the 
early tomato varieties were actually yellow) growing abundantly in their 
gardens tasted as good as it looked. After the first bite of the forbidden 
fruit, Italy fell head over heels in love with the tomato, and tomato-based 
varieties of pizza began to make their debut in the Neapolitan repertoire. The 
tomato swiftly took over as the main component for pizza filling.

But what about cheese? The most famous of all pizza -- the tomato and cheese 
variation -- is really a very recent contribution to the genre. In 1889, 
Raffaele Esposito created a new combination with tomatoes, mozzarella, and 
basil, to commemorate the colors of the Italian flag, for their pizza-loving 
Queen Margherita. The monarch was so pleased with this dish that it is still 
titled in her honor to this day.

                                   -- excerpt from "The Pizza Book"
                                      by Evelyne Slomon
                                      Times Books/Random House, 1984
                                      ISBN 0-8129-1113-X
                                      
---------------------------------

As requested by a few kind souls, here is my version of the Roman pizza,
which I understand (from my reading of other sources in addition to the
above-quoted book) is the last *whole* ancestor of the pizza -- that is,
before going back to the focaccia stage.

EARLY PIZZA  (Michael Johnston)

-----------

Ingredients:
2 package of dry yeast                  1   cup of warm water
1/2 tsp. salt [1]                       2   tsp. (plus extra) olive oil [2]
1/2 to 3 tbl. raw unfiltered honey [3]

2 to 4 cups of whole wheat bread flour, if you find it, 
OR
2-1/2 to 4 cups of white bread flour [4]

Anchovies, canned [5]
OR
Anchovies, fresh from your fishmonger, if you have one.

Cornmeal, optional, if you use a peel or bake on oven stones or other places 
where the ball-bearing action of the cornmeal is needed. If you're outside the 
ashes fulfill this purpose.

Hot oven, 500 - 600 degrees, with a stone or tile baking surface

-------------

Notes:
[1] 1/2 tsp. or less, to your taste. If you like a lot of salt, as the Romans 
did, kick it up to 1-1/2 or 2 tsps.  Ancient food seems to have been very 
salty, and it may not have been a problem for them because they didn't eat as 
much as we do nor as much refined food as we do and they perspired more because 
there was no airconditioning! Me, personally -- I'm more afraid of salt than 
cholesterol. That's just my feeling and doesn't represent any research.

[2] You know which olive oil you like. Virgin or extra virgin is OK, but stuff 
from the third and forth pressings extended by steam is not historical or 
recommended. I use an organic olive oil from Spectrum Naturals, Inc., which 
should be available in your health food store, or from Spectrum Marketing, 133 
Copeland St., Petaluma, CA 94952. It is a product of Spain and the bottle is 
nitrogen-filled to keep it tasting the best of the imports, IMO. Price is about 
the same as other high-quality, extra-virgin, or maybe a bit more. Good olive
oil is very, very important in this.

[3] The Romans used honey in their bread, again far more than we might use 
today. Mostly, I use less than 1 tbs. or none at all. If you use the greater 
salt measurement, the greater honey measurement isn't all that bad. You should 
try to balance the salt and sweet. My understanding is the historical version
would be both salty and sweet to our tastes.

[4] I use Hodgson Mill Graham flour mostly. If you can get your health food 
store to grind the whole wheat for you, it's even better. The humidity is the 
big indicator of the amount of flour to use. If you make this outside, near a 
fire with the stones, you'll see a major difference from when you make it 
inside, especially if you have a dehumidifier and/or airconditioning.

[5] It's real hard to find anchovies without those tough little tin skins! Use 
unsalted canned ones if you can find them. Do not use filets (the Romans would 
not have done something so prissy). If the salted ones are all that's 
available (and that's usually what I can find), take them out of the can,
separate, and soak them in room temperature milk for 1/2 to 1 hour. This 
removes much of the ridiculously-high salt content. This burning saltiness is 
the *major reason* people shy away from anchovies! It isn't the fault of the 
fish! It's the stupid canners. Anchovies are sky-high in Omega 3 fatty acids, 
and we should eat much more of them. Also, chop the anchovies if they are large 
or if you prefer. I don't believe the Romans chopped them at all. 

------------

Method:

Feel free to double this; I *always* do!  Take the water and put it in a warmed 
bowl (if you're outside, this is not necessary). Mix in a little honey to honor 
the yeast. Sprinkle in the yeast and stir gently. Let the yeast proof. You 
should see the foam and smell the yeasty odor rising up. If you don't, toss 
this batch out the door to feed the plants. Five minutes is enough for 
proofing.

Add the salt, rest of the honey, and olive oil and mix. Add the flour until 
you get a good mother. The mother is a very wet dough that is the intermediary 
dough. You may use your hands (again, if you're outside) or a heavy-duty mixer, 
if you like. Work the mother for about two minutes. Remember the amount of 
flour will vary wildly! Probably, 1-1/2 to 2-1/1 cups will give you a good 
moist mother.

Add the flour until the final dough clings to itself and not your fingers, or 
clings to the dough hook (if you're machining it) and not the side of the bowl. 
At this point, let it rest, covered, while you have some wine (in the interest 
of authenticity, of course).

OK, a couple of minutes later, start kneading. You can use the machine to do 
this, but do the final minutes by hand in any case. Knead with the palm of the 
hand and do it until the dough is ready. You will notice a change in the 
texture of the dough when it is ready. Most people warn you not to overknead; I 
find that most beginning bakers don't knead enough. If you go at it for 10 
minutes, it should be done, sooner if you're experienced or just fast. The 
machine can do most of what it can in five minutes.

Take the final dough (it should *fun* to play with) and put it in a bowl coated 
with olive oil, coat the top of the dough with olive oil, and cover the bowl
with a pastry cloth or plastic wrap, if that's all you have. Just keep the 
drafts away. This should be a big bowl, at least 4 times bigger than the dough.
Let it rise in a warm place until it's at least doubled, probably 1 to 1-1/2 
hours. (The wine is still available for all baking personnel.)

Punching is a violent word, so I don't use to describe what you do next. Take 
your fist and press down in the center of the risen dough and remove it 
quickly. The dough will deflate and pull away from the sides of the dough. Take 
it out of the bowl (use only half if you doubled the recipe) and place it on 
your floured workspace. Here we separate the diehards from the rest. You may 
roll the dough into the shape you like using your hands or a rolling pin. You 
may press the dough out with your floured fingers. Don't be rough with the 
dough and don't bang it with the pin. Or, you may start with a 6 to 8 inch 
circle and toss the dough, using your fist as the "catcher." Don't try to make 
it too thin! This is not L.A.-style, remember. The bread is the main thing 
here. Most people don't get it. The bread is the main event! It should be 
something a marching soldier could eat and sustain him over hours, not a flaky 
crunchy crust with trendy ingredients strewn about! So, anyway, you get your 
circle or whatever shape ready. Twist up the edges (remember the handle 
effect?). Brush generously with olive oil. Take the anchovies and put them on 
in the pattern of Caesar (see your old history book).

Then put your pizza on the stone by the fire to bake or on your tiles or pizza
stone in your oven in the house which was already warm at 500 degrees. 600 is
better, but most people's ovens don't do that easily and most people are not
comfortable working at that temperature; it burns faster and worse. But it also 
bakes faster and gives the bottom of the bread that wonderful texture that 
resonates when you thump it. (I hope you all know what that sounds like.) It 
should be done within 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15, if it's a big one. Hint: start 
out small by making three pies from one recipe of dough. They taste the same; 
they're just not as impressive to look at, but they're easier to handle.

Let it cool and then tear it with your hands (no knives or pizza cutters). Eat 
it with a broth of bitter herbs, greens, carrots, and maybe some meat if you 
want to stay historic. I know they didn't do it as much as we do, but I like it 
with a salad of Romaine lettuce, basil, chicory (endive), carrots, celery, and 
pine nuts. Dressing is not really necessary, but olive oil and vinegar is there 
if you want it.

Let me know if any of you tries it out by a barbeque or outside brick oven. I'd 
be interested in your success and comments.

Cheers!
Michael

---

From: [email-masked] (Gabe Helou)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 14:47:01 GMT

Diane Duane ([email-masked]) wrote:
: You can take it one step further.  ...  Then they thought of
: putting oil on top as well (or dunking the herbed flat
: bread *in* oil while eating it:  a lot of foods got dunked
: in olive oil while being eaten, at that point).  

Getting back to the Middle-East angle, a fast snack is often made of 
dipping pita into olive oil and zattar, a mixture of sesame seed, oregano,
thyme, and other herbs I'm probably forgetting.  This same mix, the
oil and zattar, is what I mentioned earlier as being commonly baked
on top of the pita.  The evolution you suggest is very easy to follow.

Given the general antiquity of the food, and it's many different forms,
it is almost impossible to pin down where it originated.  Any point
where you decide "everything before this was not pizza, but starting
*here*, this is pizza" is bound to be arbitrary.

A family tree of the noble 'za might be an interesting exercise, though.

--
--- -- -  -   -    -     -      -       -        -         <[email-masked]>
Gehm's Corrolary to Clarke's Third Law:  Any technology distinguishable from
   magic is insufficiently advanced.

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From: [email-masked] (Daniel W. Butler-Ehle)
Date: 3 Oct 1993 17:54:07 -0400

Gabe Helou ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Diane Duane ([email-masked]) wrote:
: : You can take it one step further.  ...  Then they thought of
: : putting oil on top as well (or dunking the herbed flat
: : bread *in* oil while eating it:  a lot of foods got dunked
: : in olive oil while being eaten, at that point).  
: 
: A family tree of the noble 'za might be an interesting exercise, though.

Y'know, last year several of us out here in the snow were discussing
doing just that.  We wanted to have a pizza party at Minicon, but 
were gonna give it a twist by having all the pizza ancestors we could
find.  The idea began when one of the SCA-types in our group made a
pita-like thing of herbs, flour, and olive oil.  He said it was of
ancient Roman origin and after the invention of cheese and grease
and tomatoes and cardboard became pizza.

-- Dan "who has a bigger kitchen than Gabe" Butler-Ehle

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From: [email-masked] (Steve Cavrak)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 01:01:16 GMT

For what it's worth, the pizza haven of my undergraduate days,
Pizza Haven, across the street from the Student Center at UC,
attributed the origin of pizza to Roman soldiers in Israel who
got in the habbit of eating mazzos with cheese and oil.
Consequently, their pizza had a very thin and crispy crust.

Steve