Subject: using knives and forks

From: [email-masked] (Gwen Allen)
Date: 7 Sep 93 11:23:34 GMT

Can anyone tell me why the Brits and Yanks use their flatware in different
ways.  It seems that most British (and maybe most Europeans?) hold the
knife in the left hand and the fork in the right hand, tines downward,
while we Yanks cut our food with knife in right hand, fork in left hand,
and then after putting the knife down, switch the fork to the right
hand.  Both methods seem to work quite well, but the Brits' method seems
more efficient.

Thanks for any insights,
Gwen

---

From: [email-masked] (Marina Waltz)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1993 16:30:36 GMT

[email-masked] (Gwen Allen) writes:
: Can anyone tell me why the Brits and Yanks use their flatware in different
: ways.  It seems that most British (and maybe most Europeans?) hold the
: knife in the left hand and the fork in the right hand, tines downward,
: while we Yanks cut our food with knife in right hand, fork in left hand,
: and then after putting the knife down, switch the fork to the right
: hand.  Both methods seem to work quite well, but the Brits' method seems
: more efficient.
: 
: Thanks for any insights,
: Gwen

Actually, all the British of my acquaintance, including my family,
hold the knife in the right hand and the fork in the left.  We just
don't switch hands after cutting.  The fork is held tines downward
unless you want to scoop some peas or something, in which case it is
held tines upward.

Regards,

Marina

---

From: [email-masked] (JOHN BARR (HSLC))
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 02:39:36 GMT

>In a previous article, [email-masked] (Marina Waltz) wrote:

I think this follows a pattern.
Isn't it true that on most of the Continent (and Britain?), at the place
setting, the fork is placed tines down?

John Barr

---

From: [email-masked] (Phil Houseago,B83 G36,648199,DSM32)
Date: 9 Sep 1993 11:40:04 GMT

hi, loads of cutting here, without a knife ...
 
In article [email-masked], [email-masked] (JOHN BARR (HSLC)) writes:
##>In a previous article, [email-masked] (Marina Waltz) wrote:
##>>[email-masked] (Gwen Allen) writes:
##>>: Can anyone tell me why the Brits and Yanks use their flatware in different
##>>Actually, all the British of my acquaintance, including my family,
##>>hold the knife in the right hand and the fork in the left.  We just
 
^ that is true for right-handed people. reverse for left (in the uk)

##
##I think this follows a pattern.
##Isn't it true that on most of the Continent (and Britain?), at the place
##setting, the fork is placed tines down?

 ^ this is not true in the uk, the fork is set with the tines  (points) upwards.

interesting thread.

cheers, phil

---
phil houseago  colchester ... esx|when is a bird not a bird?
[Gemini_Scorpio_Pisces]  /5b4!!  |when is a rabbit not a rabbit?
[email-masked]/73 de g8sgb |Zz?

---

From: [email-masked] (John Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 14:01:52 PDT

[email-masked] (Phil Houseago,B83 G36,648199,DSM32) writes:

> In article [email-masked], [email-masked] (JOHN BARR (HSLC)) 
> ##>>: Can anyone tell me why the Brits and Yanks use their flatware in differ
>  ^ this is not true in the uk, the fork is set with the tines  (points) upwar
> 
> interesting thread.
> 

There's an English lady named Margaret Visser who shows up on Canadian talk
shows now and then. She writes about etiquette and such and one of her books
was on the evolution of utensils in various societies. Don't know the name
of the book, but maybe her name will help.

---

From: [email-masked] (Stephanie Tai)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1993 05:48:03 GMT

>of the book, but maybe her name will help.

Wow!  She shows up on Canadian talk shows?  _Cool_.  Wish I could've
seen some of them.  The book, btw, is _The Rituals of Dinner_.  Nifty
book, and it's fun to keep seeing her return to her point of "manners
are there to distinguish between the eater and the thing to be eaten."
She also wrote _Much Depends on Dinner_, which I thought was pretty
good, too.
						-steph

---

From: [email-masked] (Sandra P. Hoffman)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1993 12:33:52 GMT

In a previous article, [email-masked] (Stephanie Tai) says:
Big Snip

>She also wrote _Much Depends on Dinner_, which I thought was pretty

I believe she originated from South Africa. Around the time _Much Depends
on Dinnner_ was published she had a whole series on Morningside, the morning
talk show on CBC radio. It was great, and popular enough to have been
rerun several times. She is often a guest on this show and on a few others.
-- 
---------------------- enough, or too much ----------------------------
                              sandra
                     [email-masked]
              ottawa canada  usda zone5 agcan zone 4

---

From: [email-masked] (Steve Gunnell)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 00:15:50 GMT

> hand.  Both methods seem to work quite well, but the Brits' method seems
Umm, I'm not sure that is correct. Try the British method as knife in right
and fork in left to cut and keeping the fork in the left hand to transfer
food to the mouth. Food is only cut when you are about to eat it. Most
Americans seem to be taught to cut their food in pieces first then to eat
as you say. Note that most people outside of high society use tines up or
down interchangably depending on whether you need to spear or scoop the
food.

Cheers,

-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Stephen Gunnell -----------------------------> [email-masked]
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 13 Sep 93 21:36:14 +0800

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Gwen Allen) writes:
> ways. 
..
> we Yanks cut our food with knife in right hand, fork in left hand,

The operative difference seems to be that the American cuts the food 
(frequently meat) on the plate into bite sized bits and then sets the knife 
down and uses the fork to eat the pieces.  Sequential stages, more or less.

As I recall, but be darned if I can recall just where (something on
historical archaeology, I assume), the difference is based in the fact that
at the time of USian settlement and cultural diversion from Europe, forks
were NOT part of the individual place setting.  Like a soup ladle, they
were part of the sophisticated hosts' provision for guests.  Hence, the
fork would be passed round the table while the guests (having brought their
own knives and spoons) would politely use the fork (instead of their
fingers) to hold the food while it was cut up and then pass the fork to the
next person, eating the cut bits with their spoon   Americans therefore
generally cut their food up before eating (though now they use the fork for
conveying the food rather than the spoon -- at least in good company!).  I
would assume that 17th and 18th Century English table manners (like their
accents) resembled the current American ones. 

This same history based in a shortage of forks may also have a lot to do
with the often noted European observation that Americans eat an awful lot
if items with their fingers (like fried chicken, watermelon, sandwiches,
and sweet corn). 

Which leads to another interesting observation on cultural rationalisation:
My SO, raised in Ozzie, was taught that it was impolite to cut up the food
on the plate and then put down the knife before eating.  He was told to do
so made you look "greedy."  Me, raised in an American home heard exactly
the same thing about holding the knife and cutting the food whilst eating! 

Dave
*************************************************************************
*	 Dave Rindos				20 Herdsmans Parade	*
* 	 [email-masked]		Wembley  6014   	*
* 	 Ph:  +61 9 387 6281  (GMT+8)		Western Australia	*
* 	 FAX: +61 9 380 1051  (USEDT+12)	AUSTRALIA		*
*************************************************************************

---

From: [email-masked] (A.S. Chamove)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 02:19:08 GMT

People in the UK say (with reference to US eating habits) that it is
impolite to turn the fork over and use it as a "shovel" for such like
peas. One should spear them withe the tines and/or mash them on the
back of the fork.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold Chamove,				E-mail: [email-masked]
Massey University Psychology Dept.	FAX:    (+64) 6350-5673
Palmerston North, New Zealand		Phone:  (+64) 6350-4124
   					Time Zone:  GMT + 12.00

---

From: [email-masked] (Robear)
Date: 14 Sep 1993 10:52:31 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,
>peas. One should spear them withe the tines and/or mash them on the

Wow.  I was taught that mashing or spearing peas was indecorous; one 
should carefully lift them up with the fork, and corral the last few
with the help of the knife blade, if needed.  Amazing how people 
rationalize manners.

A popular etiquette column here, "Miss Manners", opened the discussion
of how to eat peas (basically, any way possible, with a dignified
demeanor throughout :-) by noting that peas "are the only vegetable
with a herd instinct."  I found this to be quite accurate.  :-)

	David Pipes

---

From: [email-masked] (L.A.Z. Smith)
Date: 15 Sep 93 21:35:27 GMT

>down and uses the fork to eat the pieces.  Sequential stages, more or less.

This is not exactly correct, at least for well brought up Americans.  One
holds the knife in the right hand, the fork in the left, tines downward,
and cuts off a single small piece of food.  Then one sets the knife down,
transfers the fork to the right hand, tines upward, and spears and eats
the piece.  Then one transfers the fork back to the left, picks up the
knife and repeats the process.  

It is considered impolite to cut off more than one small piece at a
time.  Only children too young to handle a knife are allowed to have
their meat all cut up at once.

The European method is definitely more efficient.

LAZ Smith		[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Daniel Paul Checkman)
Date: 16 Sep 1993 20:08:23 GMT

>knife and repeats the process.  

Of course, then there are us lefties that don't even switch hands.  The only
thing I switch hands with is a spoon; otherwise, it's fork in left and knife
in right (and only one morsel at a time).
:-Dan

---

From: [email-masked] (Mary Shafer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 22:17:01 GMT

On 15 Sep 93 21:35:27 GMT, [email-masked] (L.A.Z. Smith) said:

L.A.Z.> In article <[email-masked]>
L.A.Z.> [email-masked] writes:

>(frequently meat) on the plate into bite sized bits and then sets the
>knife down and uses the fork to eat the pieces.  Sequential stages,
>more or less.

L.A.Z.> This is not exactly correct, at least for well brought up
L.A.Z.> Americans.  One holds the knife in the right hand, the fork in
L.A.Z.> the left, tines downward, and cuts off a single small piece of
L.A.Z.> food.  Then one sets the knife down, transfers the fork to the
L.A.Z.> right hand, tines upward, and spears and eats the piece.  Then
L.A.Z.> one transfers the fork back to the left, picks up the knife
L.A.Z.> and repeats the process.

L.A.Z.> It is considered impolite to cut off more than one small piece
L.A.Z.> at a time.  Only children too young to handle a knife are
L.A.Z.> allowed to have their meat all cut up at once.

L.A.Z.> The European method is definitely more efficient.

Miss Manners tells us that the lack of efficiency of the American
technique is prima facie evidence of its being more refined than the
European technique.  

--
Mary Shafer  DoD #362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
[email-masked]                 Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."  Unknown US fighter pilot

---

From: [email-masked] (Barry Shein)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 03:43:22 GMT

I just spent the last 10 days in Europe (Budapest actually) and being
bored at breakfast sometimes (well, not bored, but...) I was watching
and speculating on these various fork/knife habits. First, I guess my
father eats/ate european style and I find myself doing one or the
other rather unconsciously tho I'll admit I tend toward American
style. Most people in the dining room were either German, Austrian,
Brits or American. I've been elsewhere in Europe etc. (don't take me
for a newbie! It's just kind of fresh in my mind being back less than
a week.)

One indecorous behavior the American style does lead to are clumsy
attempts at cutting one's food with their fork. Sometimes this works
fine, with things like potato dishes where the pieces are just a
little large to put in one's mouth and the fork goes right thru the
pieces without any hesitation.

However, Americans will do things like saw at a sausage with their
fork not quite getting it but resisting the multiple shuffling of
fork/knife to cut it properly.  This really does look quite clumsy
(I'll admit I'm very guilty of this, I've often even wondered if there
were some way to devise a fork with a cutting edge!)

Note that Americans are taught that this sawing with the fork is not
acceptable, but most seem to do it anyhow and it's clearly a result of
this eating method, it's troublesome to keep swapping that knife and
fork just to cut off a bit of potato or whatever.

But it's all in the eye of the beholder, to an American the British
behavior of mashing food onto the back of a fork looks (to be blunt)
absurd and clumsy, particularly when it keeps sliding off or otherwise
not cooperating (which to my eye is not infrequent.)

Also, the more continental practice of shoveling food onto the upright
tines (an extreme version of this involves some obsessive-looking
neatening of a mound of food onto the fork) also looks a bit clumsy to
an American who has been taught that food is either directly speared
or scooped, but never with the assistance of a knife unless there's
some real difficulty (and even then discreetly.) This is so ingrained
that one will often see Americans shoveling difficult food (again,
discreetly) onto a fork with a chunk of bread, perhaps making like
they are just trying to get some sauce onto the bread (this is of
course not acceptable in a formal setting, but otherwise it's not
uncommon.)

I won't speculate on any practice being "better" than another, it's
all a matter of what you are accustomed to, just commenting on how it
looks to my eye which I think is fairly typically American in this
regard.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | [email-masked]          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD