Subject: Request: Medieval Recipes

From: [email-masked] (Mikael Niku)
Date: 1 Jun 1994 13:56:43 GMT

Anyone know any good, preferably fairly easy-to-make medieval
food recipes?

I'm planning a Middle Ages-related scout camp (in early July)
and would like to try some recipes of the time. 

Please e-mail! :-)

--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++ Mikael Niku   +++  E-mail: [email-masked] ++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
- "I hate being a DNA molecule - there's SO much to remember!" -

---

From: [email-masked] (Faith LeFebvre)
Date: 1 Jun 1994 14:33:34 GMT

Mikael Niku ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Anyone know any good, preferably fairly easy-to-make medieval
: food recipes?

: I'm planning a Middle Ages-related scout camp (in early July)
: and would like to try some recipes of the time. 

: Please e-mail! :-)

Please post it!  I would like to get those recipes, too!

--
Faith LeFebvre
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Charlie Sorsby)
Date: 1 Jun 1994 20:32:43 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Faith LeFebvre) writes:
= Mikael Niku ([email-masked]) wrote:
= : Anyone know any good, preferably fairly easy-to-make medieval
= : food recipes?
= 
= : I'm planning a Middle Ages-related scout camp (in early July)
= : and would like to try some recipes of the time. 
= 
= : Please e-mail! :-)
= 
= Please post it!  I would like to get those recipes, too!

Me too!

= --
= Faith LeFebvre
= [email-masked]
= [email-masked]

-- 
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby				"I'm the NRA!"
	  [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Terry Nutter)
Date: 2 Jun 1994 19:45:30 GMT

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

>= Please post it!  I would like to get those recipes, too!

I wonder if you good people have any idea what you're asking?  I have over
100 recipes I have personally worked up from medieval collections; I'd say
that a good half of them fall into the class you're talking about.  (They
aren't in a format that lends well to posting, so you will be spared
bandwidth. ;^)  And there are a lot of people out there, several on this 
list, who've been at this longer than I have.

I would suggest, if you want to start with worked-up recipes, that you get
hold of a copy of Constance Hieatt and Sharon Butler, _Pleyn Delit_.  (I
would give you ISBN, etc., but my copy went walkabout several years back.)
It contains a reasonable sized collection of worked-up recipes originating
from _Forme of Curye_, a late 14th C English collection.  I believe it is
still in print; I ordered my (late and somewhat lamented) copy from a local
bookstore without difficulty.

Cheers,

Terry Nutter     Blacksburg, VA     [email-masked]     (703)552-1598

---

From: [email-masked] (tihor2)
Date: 4 Jun 1994 05:12:10 GMT

Charlie Sorsby ([email-masked]) wrote:
: In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Faith LeFebvre) writes:
: = Mikael Niku ([email-masked]) wrote:
: = : Anyone know any good, preferably fairly easy-to-make medieval
: = : food recipes?
k: = Please post it!  I would like to get those recipes, too!

: Me too!

: = --
: = Faith LeFebvre
: = [email-masked]
: = [email-masked]

My dears I would be glad to help, but I need to know what kind of things 
you want , Modern versions, ones that were just translated, or in french 
german etc, and for what kind of dishs sweets, meats, vegs, barly?  You 
could allso look and ask questions at (on?) rec.org.sca a group that 
studys all type of life from 500 to 1500 ad
                                  yours Ashley Fraser

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl Berger)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 94 09:36:00 -0500

MN>Anyone know any good, preferably fairly easy-to-make medieval
MN>food recipes?

MN>I'm planning a Middle Ages-related scout camp (in early July)
MN>and would like to try some recipes of the time.

     Send me another message in about 3 weeks and I will have another 20
medieval recipes available.
   _  _/|
   \'O O|
   ={_:_}= Meow

MMMMM----- Recipe via :) Meal-Master (tm) v8.01

      Title: Carrots and Grapes Vermouth
 Categories: Medieval, Entertain, Vegetables, Ethnic
      Yield: 6 servings

      2 pk Green Giant Frozen Carrots *
      3 tb Brown Sugar, firmly packed
      3 tb Vermouth
      2 ts Cornstarch
      2 tb Water
    3/4 c  Green Grapes, halved
    3/4 c  Red Grapes, halved

  * 2 (10-oz.) pkg. Green Giant Crinkle Cut Carrots Frozen in Butter
  Sauce.

  Cook carrots according to pkg. directions. Slit pouch open and drain
  butter sauce into med. saucepan. Stir in brown sugar and vermouth. In
  small bowl, mix cornstarch and water until smooth. Blend into butter
  sauce. Heat over low heat, stirring constantly, until mixture is
  smooth and slightly thickened. Add carrots and grapes. Heat
  additional 2 mins.

  TIP: To make ahead, prepare carrots as directed, adding grapes just
  before serving. Heat thoroughly.

  I have never tried this recipe. It comes from my "Pillsbury Festive
  Holiday Recipes" cookbook, Classic #13. Marilyn Sultar

MMMMM

MMMMM----- Recipe via :) Meal-Master (tm) v8.01

      Title: Herbed Green Beans
 Categories: Medieval, Entertain, Vegetables, Ethnic
      Yield: 6 servings

      3 pk French Sytle Green Beans*
    1/8 ts Crushed Rosemary
    1/8 ts Crushed Basil
      2 tb Chopped Parsley

  * 3 (10-oz.) pkg. Green Giant French Style Green Beans Frozen in
  Butter Sauce.

  Cook beams accordint to pkg. directions. Remove from pouch and pour
  into serving dish. Sprinkle with herbs and parsley.

  The recipe comes from my "Pillsbury Festive Holiday Recipes" cookbook,
  Classics #13. Marilyn Sultar

MMMMM
MMMMM----- Recipe via :) Meal-Master (tm) v8.01

      Title: INTRODUCTION TO MEDIEVAL RECIPES
 Categories: Medieval, Pepperidge, Farm
      Yield: 1 servings

MMMMM----------------INTRODUCTION TO 1475 RECIPES---------------------

  DE HONESTA VOLUPATE ET VALETUDINE (OF HONEST VOLUPTUSNESS AND HEALTH)
  OR VIRTUOUS ENJOYMENT AND GOOD HEALTH) BY BARTHOLOMAEUS DE PLATINA
  Printed in roman Type in Venice 13 June 1475 THE title of Platina's
  work, as is true of many books of the period, appears in various
  forms. One variant, De obsoniis ac  honesta voluptate, can be freely
  translated as: "On meat dishes and their virtuous enjoyment." Platina
  stresses that his recipes do not lead to the sin of gluttony. So you
  can enjoy your three-inch charcoal-broiled steaks and still feel
  virtuous. This book is important not only as the first printed
  cookery text, but also as an excellent source of knowledge of daily
  life in the mid-fifteenth century, and particularly for insights into
  dietary customs of the time. Platina, I discovered, was not a cook.
  He is recorded first as a soldier and later as a distinguished
  scholar. In 1474 he presented the handwritten manuscript of his now
  famous Lives of the Popes to Pope Sixtus IV. The original is still in
  the Vatican Library. His reward was an appointment to the extremely
  important post of Librarian to the Vatican. How did this scholar come
  to write a cookbook? The clue may be found in the book itself, where
  he mentions his "good friend Martino" the chef of one of the
  Chamberlains to the Pope. They must have become acquainted at the
  Vati- can. A manuscript treatise on food and cookery written by
  Martino is in the Library of Congress. It is quite evident that
  Martino's manuscript formed the basis for Platina's book, for he says
  of his friend in Chapter VI, "which cook, by the immortals, could
  compare with my companion Martino of Como, by whom these things I
  write have for the most part been considered? You will call him
  another Carneades if you hear him discussing extemporaneously the
  things put forth here." Platina's book is rather casual in its
  approach to actual cooking, and the entries in the long table of
  contents may not guide the reader to any hint of a recipe. For
  instance, the chapter on edible birds deals with swans and storks,
  but only relates their living habits. It must be remembered, however,
  that in the fifteenth century the common people could neither read
  nor write. Books were commissioned by rich patrons who collected
  handwritten books with elaborate hand-painted illuminations. Any
  cookery manuscript would have been a carefully guarded secret,
  available only to professionals. I suppose the student apprentices
  who had to pay for their training were sworn to secrecy and learned
  not by reading but by working with their masters, who probably
  couldn't write out directions anyway. But Platina, a trained scholar
  and experienced writer, turned out a well-written book by the
  standards of his time, even though the recipes lack specific
  information. What fascinates me is that so many of the same foods we
  use today were being used then in practically the same way. Platina
  refers to eggs, pastry, bread and grains, cheese, all the vegetables,
  practically all the fruits, including cherries, grapes and eggs,
  chicken, frogs, salted meat, squid, octopus and all our modern
  spices. And his chapters of advice concerning healthful habits seem
  amazingly timely today, when exercise and recreation are considered
  of vital importance for good health. All of Platina's recipes are
  frustrating, for no quantities are given and no definite cooking
  directions appear. You were just supposed to be a "born cook" in
  those days. Have a look at these old recipes, but, for goodness
  sakes, don't try them unless you are the gambling type. Use the
  modern versions--I can guarantee them, for we have eaten them one and
  all. Source: Pepperidge Farm Cookbook, by Margaret Rudkin -----

MMMMM

MMMMM----- Recipe via :) Meal-Master (tm) v8.01

      Title: CHICKEN IN A PUNGENT SAUCE--1475
 Categories: Medieval, Pepperidge, Farm
      Yield: 1 servings

MMMMM-----------------------CHICKEN--1475----------------------------
>>> Continued to next message

 * SLMR 2.1a * History repeats itself because nobody listens.

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl Berger)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 94 09:36:00 -0500

>>> Continued from previous message
  Cook chicken with salted meat. When it is half cooked, put seeded
  grapes in the pot. Throw in parsley and a pinch of mint. Crush
  together pepper and saffron.
   Put all the ingredients in the pot when the chicken is cooked and
  serve immediately. Platina says:  "There is nothing more healthful
  than this food, which Poggio frequently eats when I have been
  invited. It is nourishing, easily cooked, agrees with the stomach,
  heart, liver, kidneys and checks the bile."

MMMMM

      Title: CHICKEN IN A PUNGENT SAUCE--MODERN VERSION
 Categories: Medieval, Pepperidge, Farm
      Yield: 4 servings

      2 ea 2-lb broilers
      8 ea Slices bacon
      2 c  Seedless grapes
      2 T  Parsley; chopped fine
      1 ea Mint sprig OR
  1 1/2 t  Dried Mint
    1/2 t  Pepper
      1 t  Salt
    1/2 t  Saffron;(Powdered)
      2 c  Chicken broth*

  *Made from necks, gizzards, and livers Fry the bacon until crisp in a
  large iron frying pan. Remove from the pan, drain on paper toweling,
  break into small pieces and set aside. Brown slowly in the bacon fat
  the broilers which have been quartered, necks removed.
   When nicely browned, transfer the chicken to a large earthenware
  casserole and keep warm.
   Crush together 1 tablespoon chopped parsley, the dried powdered mint
  or leaves of fresh mint chopped fine, the salt, freshly ground pepper
  and saffron. Sprinkle over the chicken. Add to the brown residue in
  the frying pan  the chicken broth. Bring to a boil, stir well and
  pour over the chicken. Place the casserole on a flame tamer over low
  heat, cover tightly and cook gently until the chicken is tender, or
  for about 3O minutes. Drain off most of the juice into a small
  saucepan and reduce to a syrupy consistency by boiling rapidly, for
  about 5 minutes. Pour back over the chicken, sprinkle with another
  tablespoon of chopped parsley and the pieces of bacon, and add the
  grapes.
   A macedoine of cooked chopped carrots, string beans, lima beans and
  peas, well buttered, would be good with this dish. Source: The
  Pepperidge Farm Cookbook

MMMMM

      Title: A SQUID DISH FOR DAYS OF ABSTINENCE--1475
 Categories: Medieval, Pepperidge, Farm
      Yield: 1 servings

MMMMM----------------------SQUID DISH--1475---------------------------

   Platina mentions several odd fishes not usually used today as food,
  such as cuttlefish, scorpions, lampreys and sea-lion. But most of his
  fish are still favorites-eels, lobsters, crabs, oysters, sturgeon and
  sturgeon eggs (which he calls caviar),  salmon, sole, etc., and he
  gives a recipe for a Squid Dish for Days of Abstinence. Although
  squid is eaten today in the South of France and Greece, and can be
  found in special fish shops here, I would prefer salmon or halibut.
  But if you hanker for squid, just go ahead with it if you can find
  some, and be sure to have the fish man prepare it for you by removing
  the black liquid from the backbone. A SQUID DISH FOR DAYS OF
  ABSTINENCE--1475 Boil the squid. Crush what is good in a mortar.
  Prepare a paste of almonds with rosewater strained through a sieve;
  or, if you can't provide this, use the juice of peas or white
  chickpeas. Crush together small grapes and five figs. Mix a little
  rock parsley and a little fresh marjoram leaves. Add as much
  cinnamon, ginger and sugar as is necessary. Mix these well with
  whites of eggs so that they will stick together and cook better. With
  the mixture well greased, and with a crust above and beneath, set it
  on the hearth at a little distance from the flame. Sprinkle sugar and
  rosewater on the cooked mixture. This dish assails all the members.

MMMMM

      Title: FISH PIE, MODERN VERSION OF SQUID DISH
 Categories: Medieval, Pepperidge, Farm
      Yield: 4 servings

MMMMM------------------FISH PIE RECIPE--MODERN-----------------------
  1 3/4 lb Salmon
      1 ea Plain pastry w/butter*

MMMMM-----------------------COURT BOUILLON----------------------------
      1 c  White wine
      3 c  Cold water
      1 ea Onion; peeled & sliced
      1 ea Carrot; peeled
      3 ea Peppercorns
      1 c  Seedless grapes
    1/2 t  Powdered Marjoram
    1/2 t  Powdered Ginger
    1/2 t  Powdered Cinnamon
    1/2 c  Almonds; grated**
      2 t  Rosewater
      5 ea Black figs or small figs
      2 t  Sugar
  1 1/2 t  Salt
    1/8 lb Butter
      1 T  Parsley; chopped
      1 ea Egg White

  * For a 2 crust pie ** Ground, or chopped almonds Wrap the salmon in a
  piece of cheesecloth, tie securely with string and cook gently for
  about 3O minutes in a court bouillon made of water, white wine, salt,
  onion, peppercorns and carrot. Remove from the bouillon, unwrap, and
  remove all skin, bones  and the black part of the flesh. When cool
  enough to handle, flake it with your fingers to be sure you feel and
  extract all the bones.
   Peel  the  figs  and  add  to  them the  washed  and stemmed grapes.
   Crush the fruits together, using a wooden spoon, and season them
  with the marjoram, cinnamon, ginger, sugar and 1 1/2 teaspoons salt.
   Grate or grind the blanched almonds, moisten them with the rosewater
  and add to the fruit.
   Now stir in the flaked salmon, chopped parsley and 4 tablespoons
  melted butter.
   Beat the egg white with a fork until frothy, then stir it into the
  whole mixture. Line a 9-inch pie dish with pastry and fill it with
  the salmon mixture. Cover with more pastry. Trim, roll under and
  crimp the edges. Make 5 or 6  generous slits in the top crust and
  place in a 350 ^ F. oven. Bake for about 20 minutes, turn the
  regulator to 400^ F. and continue baking until it looks done, or for
  about 45 minutes in all. Serve at once with white wine. Source:
  Pepperidge Farm Cookbook

MMMMM

      Title: Parchment Wrapped Chicken
 Categories: Oriental, Appetizer, Chicken, Steamed, D&g
      Yield: 8 servings

      2    Whole chicken breasts,
           Skinned and boned
      3 tb Dark soy sauce
      1 ts Ginger juice*
    1/4 ts Sugar
           Boiling Water
    1/2 lb Fresh bean sprouts
      6    Green onions with tops, cut
           Into 2 inch lengths and
           Slivered
    1/3 c  Chopped walnuts

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl Berger)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 94 09:36:00 -0500

>>> Continued from previous message
      8    8 inch squares of parchment
           Paper

  PAPER

  Cut eight 8 inch squares of parchment paper.

  INGREDIENTS

  Cut chicken into thin, narrow strips, about 3 inches long.  Combine
  soy sauce, ginger juice and sugar in large bowl; stir in chicken, let
  stand 30 minutes.

  Meanwhile, pour boiling water over bean sprouts; let stand one minute.
  Drain; cool under cold water and drain well.

  Thoroughly toss chicken mixture with bean sprouts, green onions and
  walnuts.

  Place about 1/2 cupful of chicken mixture in center of each parchment
  square.  Fold bottom point of parchment over filling; crease just
  below filling and fold point over and under filling.  Fold side
  points over filling, overlapping slightly.  Crease paper to hold
  folds. Fold remaining corner down so point extends below bottom of
  bundle; tuck this point between folded sides.  Crease paper to hold
  folds. Repeat with remaining parchment squares. (Ends up looking like
  small envelope, with flap tucked under bundle)

  Place bundles seam side down, in single layer on steamer rack.  Set
  rack in large pot or wok of boiling water.  (Do not let water level
  reach the bundles)  Cover and steam about 7 minutes or until chicken
  is tender. Serve immediately

  *Peel fresh ginger root, then squeeze through garlic press.

  == Courtesy of Dale & Gail Shipp, Columbia Md. ==

  ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Maryland. 15:35:39 10 Feb 94 --- Blue
  Wave/Max v2.12 * Origin: Pooh's Corner * (410) 327-9263 * (1:261/1131)
  ======================================================================
  ==== BBS: Ned's Opus Date: 02-10-94 (17:46) Number: 313 From: DALE
  SHIPP Refer#: NONE To: ALL Recvd: NO Subj: Chinese Appetizer 3/3
  Conf: (4) Cooking

MMMMM

MMMMM

MMMMM

      2    2-lb broilers
      8    Slices bacon
      2 c  Seedless grapes
      1    Mint sprig OR
  1 1/2 t  Dried Mint
    1/2 t  Pepper
      1 t  Salt
    1/2 t  Saffron;(Powdered)

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl Berger)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 94 09:36:00 -0500

2 c  Chicken broth*

MMMMM

MMMMM

      1    Plain pastry w/butter*

MMMMM-----------------------COURT BOUILLON----------------------------
      1 c  White wine
      3 c  Cold water
      1    Onion; peeled & sliced
      1    Carrot; peeled
      3    Peppercorns
      1 c  Seedless grapes
    1/2 t  Powdered Marjoram
    1/2 t  Powdered Ginger
    1/2 t  Powdered Cinnamon
    1/2 c  Almonds; grated**
      2 t  Rosewater
      5    Black figs or small figs
      2 t  Sugar
  1 1/2 t  Salt
    1/8 lb Butter
      1 T  Parsley; chopped
      1    Egg White

MMMMM

      Title: German peppered beef soup
 Categories: Soup, Mine, Med hot
      Yield: 2 gallons

      5 lb German peppered beef *
      2 lg Yellow onions diced large
      1 c  Crushed RED BELL peppers **
      2 lb Red potatoes
      2 lg Carrots
      2 ea Celery stocks (not bunches)
    1/4 c  Oregeno
    1/4 c  Sweet basil
      1 tb Celery seed
    1/8 c  Carroway seed
    1/2 c  Dill weed

  * this may be obtained from all of the german deli's I have ever been
  in (which may not be many)... and is basically a rather tough cut of
  beef which has been covered (and I do mean covered) with very large
  chunks of black pepper corns (some are even whole)

  ** if you can not find red bell peppers dried and crushed you will
  want to do it your self for the flavor needed... cut three or four
  red bell peppers into small pieces and spread out on paper towels to
  dry (or put it in your food drier if you have one) seeds and all!

  FIRST:

  cut the meat into 1 inch chunks (leaving the precious pepper on it!),
  sear by your favorite method... I prefer a small amount of sesame oil
  in a wok.

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl Berger)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 94 09:36:00 -0500

>>> Continued from previous message
  CROCK POT METHOD: chop everything up into 1 inch chunks throw in the
  pot, set on medium (200 degrees), cover with water plus 1 inch (for
  the pan as my mentor said), cook covered (with a lid) stirring every
  2 hours or so from the bottom for 4 hours, turn to low, cook covered
  for 6 hours.

  PAN METHOD: chop everything into 1 inch chunks, place carrots,
  celery, and meat into pan, cook 1 hour at med/low (150 to 160
  degrees), add the rest of the goodies, cook 1 hour.

  Ahh a bug found... covered in water both times, better go change it
  <GRIN> plus 1 inch for the pan

  LAST: refrigerate for at least 6 hours, warm only as much as you will
  be eating.

  NOTES: you are correct, this method looks a little "ugly", but having
  been taught to make this soup by a german grandmother, and her
  scottish husband (my grand father, who also was a chef by trade)... I
  learned at a very young age that what they said usualy worked the
  best, even though it took more time.

  W. A. Blaylock

MMMMM

      Title: Lombard Chicken Pasties
 Categories: Chicken, Medieval
      Yield: 6 servings

  Chickens be set in a pasty on their backs with the breast upward and
  large slices of bacon on the breast, and then covered.  Item in the
  Lombard manner, when the chickens be plucked and prepared, take
  beaten eggs (to wit yolks and whites) with verjuice and spice powder
  and dip your chickens therein; then set them in the pasty with strips
  of bacon as above.

  350 g/12 oz shortcrust or puff pastry 2 eggs, beaten 2 tablespoons
  verjuice* or lemon juice 1/8 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper 1/2
  teaspoon ground ginger 450 g/1 lb chicken or turkey breast meat, in
  small thin slices 3 large rashers streaky or back bacon, trimmed of
  fat and cut in half

  *Verjuice--a popular medieval condiment made from specially grown or
  (in England) unripe grapes.  If you can get Seville oranges in season
  and freeze them, use their juice as a substitute for verjuice.

  No doubt the franklin in Chaucher's group who kept such a grandiose
  table would have served a splendid double-sized, two-crust pie at
  home; but small ones are better for eating on the road.  In either
  case, he would surely have told his cooks to bone the birds.  Hunting
  for meat (or fish) bones under a pastry crust is frustrating.

  Roll out the pastry and cut it into six large circles each 16 cm/6 1/2
  inches across.  'Rest' it while making the filling.  Pre-heat the
  oven to 220C/425F/Gas Mark 7.

  Mix the beaten egg with the verjuice or lemon juice, pepper and
  ginger. Dip the slices of poultry meat in the mixture, then divide
  them between the pastry circles, placing them on one side of the
  round, but not right up to the edge.  Lay a piece of bacon on each
  pile. Brush the edge of the pastry with any remaining egg mixture; if
  necessary, use a third egg. Fold the bare half of each pastry round
  over the meat and match the two pastry edges.  Pinch the edges
  together, fluting them, or press with a fork. Prick the pastry in
  several places.

  Bake the pasties on a baking sheet for 15 minutes.  Reduce the oven
  temperature to 190C/375F/Gas Mark 5 and cook for another 20-25
  minutes. Serve hot or cold.

  from The Medieval Cookbook by Maggie Black Chapter 2, "Chaucer's
  Company" posted by Tiffany Hall-Graham

MMMMM

      Title: White Bread and Rolls
 Categories: Breads, Medieval
      Yield: 2 loaves

  1.3 kg/2 lb 14 oz unbleached strong white flour 50 g/2 oz rice flour
  or cornflour 1 TB salt 25 g/1 oz fresh yeast 575-850/1-1 1/2 pints/2
  1/2-3 3/4 cups warm water 175 ml/6 fl oz/1/4 cup brown ale 4
  teaspoons warmed clear honey A little oil for greasing

  Mix the flours and salt in a warmed bowl.  Blend the yeast to a cream
  with a little of the water, then mix in the ale, honey and a scant
  575 ml/1 pint/2 1/2 cups of the remaining water.  Stir the liquids
  into the flour mixture and mix to a firm dough, adding more water if
  it does not cohere. On a board or work-top, knead the dough for about
  8 minutes or until it feels elastic.  Shape it into a ball.  Oil the
  inside of the bowl, return the dough and cover it loosely with oiled
  greaseproof paper. Leave in a warm place to double in bulk.

  Punch down the dough and cut it in half.  Shape one half into two
  equal-sized round loaves and the other half into rolls.  Make a
  crosscut in the top of each loaf.  Place on oiled baking sheets, well
  apart, cover loosely with oiled greaseproof paper and leave to
  'prove' in a warm place. Meanwhile, pre-heat the oven to
  230C/450F/Gas Mark 8.

  The rolls will be ready first.  When swollen and puffy, bake them for
  15-17 minutes.  Tap one on the bottom; it should sound hollow if
  cooked. Bake the loaves when ready for about 25 minutes; test by
  tapping. If not yet done, bake for a little longer at 150C/300F/Gas
  Mark 2. When cooked, leave to cool, covered with a cloth, on a wire
  rack.

  Bread baked on metal sheets tends to have a hard crust.  If you cool
  it covered, you prevent steam escaping so the bread stays softer. You
  can, if you prefer, bake the loaves in two oiled deep cake tins with
  removable bottoms, to get a softer crust.

  from The Medieval Cookbook by Maggie Black Chapter 2, "Chaucer's
  Company" posted by Tiffany Hall-Graham

MMMMM

      Title: Braised Spring Greens
 Categories: Vegetables, Side dish, Medieval
      Yield: 6 servings

  Spynoches yfryed.  Take spynoches; perboile hem in sethyng water.
  Take hem up and presse out the water and hew hem in two.  Frye hem in
  oile & do therto powdour douce, & serue forth.

  700 g/1 1/2 lb small whole heads of spring greens or spinach 3-4
  tablespooons frying oil 1/4 teaspoon each sea salt, freshly ground
  black pepper, grated nutmeg and ground cinnamon Small sprinkling of
  soft light brown sugar

  Spring greens are probably closer to medieval spinach than our modern
  spinach, but the recipe is good made with either.  Our forebears would
  probably have used rape oil for this dish, most likely imported from
  Flanders, but King Richard's cooks could certainly get hold of costly
  nut or olive oil with its finer flavour.  I have added a little stock
  or water to the frying oil because the first tests gave very greasy
  results.

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl Berger)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 94 09:37:00 -0500

W. A. Blaylock

MMMMM

MMMMM

  Punch down the dough and cut it in half.  Shape one half into two
  equal-sized round loaves and the other half into rolls.  Make a
  crosscut in the top of each loaf.  Place on oiled baking sheets, well
  apeart,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,art,ar

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,art,

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl Berger)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 94 10:55:00 -0500

>>> Continued from previous message
  Wash the heads of greens or spinach and trim off any stems.  Bring
  about 5 cm/2 inches water to the boil in a large pan and put in the
  heads side by side; if they do not all fit in, blanch them in two
  batches. Turn them over with two wooden spoons for 2-3 minutes until
  softened. Cover the pan, lower the heat and simmer for 5 minutes.

  When all the greens are blanched, drain them, reserving any liquid
  left. Squeeze the heads dry in a cloth and split them in half
  lengthways. Heat the oil in a deep heavy frying-pan, then add the
  wilted greens and about 5 mm/1/4 inch of the reserved cooking liquid
  or water. Add the spices and sugar.  Turn the heads over to coat them
  with oil, cover the pan and simmer the contents until the ribs and
  stem are tender. Serve in a warmed dish with the cooking liquid or
  not, as you please.

MMMMM

      Title: Golden Leeks and Onions
 Categories: Vegetables, Side dish, Medieval
      Yield: 6 servings

  To make blaunche porre.  Tak whyte lekys & perboyle hem & hewe hem
  smale with oynouns.  Cast it in good broth & sethe it vp with smale
  bryddys. Coloure it with safferoun; powdur yt with pouder douce.

  1 teaspoon dried saffron strands 2 tablespoons boiling water 6 medium
  leeks (white part only) 3 medium onions 575 ml/1 pint/2 1/2 cups
  chicken stock 1/3 teaspoon soft light brown sugar Good pinch each of
  ground white pepper, cinnamon and cloves Yellow food colouring
  (optional)

  The summoner in Chaucer's company loved onions and leeks, so he would
  have enjoyed this dish, even without 'smale bryddes' (blackbirds or
  finches) in the pot.

  First, soak the saffron strands in the boiling water until the water
  is deep gold.  Prepare the leeks by trimming the root ends and
  slicing the white stems into thin rings; they should not need
  parboiling. Peel and chop the onions.  Put all the ingredients in a
  large pan and cook gently, uncovered, for 6-8 minutes.

  Drain off most of the stock if you want to serve the vegetables as a
  side dish; to make sure your dish is really golden, add a drop of
  food coloring. Alternatively, double the quantity of stock for the
  cooking, do not drain, and serve as a 'running' porridge.

MMMMM

      Title: Civey of Hare
 Categories: Meat, Main dish, Medieval
      Yield: 6 servings

  Hare yn cyve.  Smyte a hare in small pecys; perboyle hem yn swete
  broth with hys oun blode.  Cast hym yn a cold watyr.  Peke hym clene;
  do hym in a pott.  Clarifye the broth clene; do therto onyons &
  herbes mynsyd. Take hole clovys, macys & powdyr, & drow a thyn lyour
  of crustys with rede wyne. Boyle hit tyl hit be ynowghe; sesyn hit up
  with powdyr of gynger, venyger & salt, & loke hit be a good colour of
  blood. 1 hare, cleaned and jointed into 6 pieces 575 ml/1 pint/2 1/2
  cups beef stock Blood of the hare or 125 g/4 oz pig's liver, sliced 2
  medium onions 1 sprig each of fresh thyme and rosemary 2 slices brown
  toast sprinkled with ground mixed spice 175 ml/6 fl oz/3/4 cup red
  wine 6 parsley stalks tied in muslin with 4 whole cloves and 2 blades
  mace 1/4 teaspoon ground ginger Salt to taste 1 tablespoon red wine
  vinegar

  Discard the foot joints of the hare and any flaps of skin on the
  saddle. Cut through the spine between the rib-cage and fleshier
  saddle. Put all the meat in a stew-pan with the stock and blood or
  pig's liver and cook gently for 15 minutes.  Meanwhile, peel and chop
  the onions and chop the thyme and rosemary leaves; also steep the
  spiced toast in the wine.

  Remove the hare meat from the pan and strain the stock, discarding the
  liver if used.  Rinse the hare meat in cold water.  Return the stock
  to the pan with the chopped onions and herbs and add the spice
  bundle. Stir in the mushy soaked bread and wine.  Lastly, add the
  meat, putting the rib-cage on top.  Cover the pan and cook the civey
  gently for 2 hours or until the meat is tender.

  Just before serving, blend the ginger and salt into the vinegar and
  stir them into the sauce.  Discard the rib-cage.  Transfer to a
  casserole or deep dish and serve hot.

MMMMM

      Title: Chicken with Rice and Almonds
 Categories: Chicken, Main dish, Medieval
      Yield: 6 servings

  Blawmanger.  Tak the two del of rys, the thridde pert of almoundes;
  wasch clene the rys in leuk water & turne & seth hem til thay breke &
  lat it kele, and tak the melk & do it to the rys & boyle hem
  togedere. & do therto whit fres & braun of hennes ground smale, and
  stere it wel, and salte it & dresch it in disches.  & frye almoundes
  in fresch gres til they be browne, & set hem in the dissches, and
  strawe thereon sugre & serue it forth.

  225 g/8 oz long-grain rice 1.4 litres/2 1/2 pints/6 1/2 cups strong
  chicken stock 125 g/4 oz ground almonds 450 g/1 lb poached white
  chicken meat, minced 2-3 tablespoons chicken fat, melted Salt and
  freshly ground black pepper

  Garnish:

  50 g/2 oz flaked almonds, toasted Light sprinkling of white sugar or
  dried saffron strands (optional)

  There are several versions of this popular dish; one contains lumps of
  meat, another (given by the Goodman of Paris) is for invalids.  I have
  borrowed a few details from other versions for this recipe, as I'm
  sure Chaucer's cook did.

  Wash the rice in lukewarm water.  Then boil it in 1.1 litres/ 2
  pints/5 cups of the chicken stock until almost tender.  Heat the
  remaining stock and use it to steep the ground almonds for about 15
  minutes. Drain the rice well when done and let it cool.  Then return
  it to the dry pan and strain in the almond 'milk'.  Bring to a
  simmering point. Stir in the chicken meat and fat, stir round and
  cook until the meat is heated through. Season while cooking.

  Serve the chicken and rice into warmed bowls and put a ring of toasted
  almond flakes around the edge of each helping.  If you wish, sprinkle
  a very little sugar or a few saffron strands in the centre.  (Saffron
  looks and tastes better, if affordable.)

MMMMM

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl Berger)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 94 10:55:00 -0500

>>> Continued from previous message
      Title: Fig and Raisin 'Cream'
 Categories: Medieval, Fruit
      Yield: 6 servings

  Rapey.  Take half fyges and half raisouns; pike hem and waishe hem in
  water.  Skalde hem in wyne, bray hem in a morter, and drawe them
  thurgh a straynour.  Cast hem in a pot and therwith powdur of peper
  and oother good powdours; alay it vp with flour of rys, and colour it
  with saundres. Salt it, seeth it & messe it forth.

  125 g/4 oz well-soaked dried figs 125 g/4 oz stoned raisins 275 ml/10
  fl oz/1 1/4 cups red wine (not too dry) Good pinch of ground black
  pepper 1/3 teaspoon ground cinnamon 1/8 teaspoon ground cloves Soft
  dark brown sugar to taste 3 teaspoons rice flour or cornflour A drop
  or two of red food colouring Salt to taste

  Drain the figs, reserving the soaking liquid.  Discard the stalk ends
  of the fruit and put them in a saucepan with the raisins and wine.
  Add the spices and a teaspoon of sugar and bring to the boil.  Take
  off the heat and cool slightly, then turn the mixture into an
  electric blender and process until smooth.  Add a little of the
  soaking water if the mixture is stubbornly solid.

  Cream the rice flour or cornflour with a little more soaking water or
  wine and brighten the tint with a drop of food colouring.  Blend the
  'cream' into the dried-fruit puree.  Then return the whole mixture to
  the saucepan and simmer until it thickens slightly.  Season with salt
  and a little extra sugar if you wish.

  The mixture can be served hot or cold over a sweet cereal dish, firm
  stewed fruit or - best of all- ice cream.  Some versions in other
  manuscripts are stiffer and make a good filling for tartlets or fried
  puffs. One encloses the filling in pastry to make dumplings.

MMMMM

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl Berger)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 94 09:36:00 -0500

not, as you uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou u

ou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou 

uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou

 uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uo

u uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou u

ou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou 

uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou

 uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uo

u uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou u

ou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou 

uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou

 uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou uou u

---

From: [email-masked] (Cerin)
Date: 5 Jun 1994 13:19:02 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Carl Berger) writes:

art x 1000
you x some larger number......

These recipes sound like a lot of fun to try, but is something
missing where the "arts" and "yous" are, or do the recipes just
continue after those? I must confess, I just saved most of it rather
than reading carefully through...so the answer may be self-evident.
If so, sorry! But thanks again!

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 7 Jun 94 14:44:04 +1000

>  Categories: Medieval, Pepperidge, Farm
(snip)

> Although
>   the black liquid from the backbone.

About the squid: you may find it hard to find in the US (I missed it a lot
while I lived there) but it's very easy to find in Australia, where it's known
as calamari, since we got intoduced to it by the Greek immigrants. It's also
used widely in Asian cooking here, so a Chinatown market might be a good place
to look.

I'm sure that salmon would make a nice fish pie, but it doesn't sound like a
good squid substitute. Squid is a mild flavoured white meat, the texture is
more rubbery than fish-like (though it's beautifully tender if cooked well). I
think a mild white fish would be a closer substitute. Shark would be good (we
call it flake here, there may be another euphemism for it in other countries).

Don't worry too much about the preparation. The ink would stain it if you
accidentally get some mixed in, but it's not dangerous. Italians use it to
colour pasta; it's considered a bit of an upmarket yuppie delicacy here.

Preparation is easy too: you skin it and throw everything away from the inside
(unless you want to save the ink). The tentacles are a bit of a hassle to skin,
so often fish shops toss them out and sell just the tube shaped body, all ready
for you to cut into rings. But if you're prepared to do the work, they're
perfectly good eating.

cheers
Cath

---

From: [email-masked] (Mikael Niku)
Date: 7 Jun 1994 16:43:23 GMT

: My dears I would be glad to help, but I need to know what kind of things 
: you want , Modern versions, ones that were just translated, or in french 
: german etc, and for what kind of dishs sweets, meats, vegs, barly?  You 

Preferably just translated, not modernized. And ANY kind will do:
sweets might be the most suitable for my purpose, but I'm interested
in anything that we can make at the scout camp. We have gas stoves
and open fire, no ovens (well, we might build a primitive one
if necessary). 

Now I do understand that you probably have LOTS of good recipes;
so please choose some you think would be nice. 

I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to find those special cookbooks
like that here in Finland, that's why I asked for the recipes
here.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jack Campin)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 15:46:01 GMT

[email-masked] (Carl Berger) wrote:
>> Anyone know any good, preferably fairly easy-to-make medieval food recipes?

Apart from the rather extreme improbability of this ingredient being available
in the Middle Ages, why that brand and no other?  Do they use a mediaeval
strain of carrot?...

>       3 tb Brown Sugar, firmly packed

How far back does the simultaneous availability of white and brown sugar go?

>       2 ts Cornstarch

Cornstarch in mediaeval Europe?  Yeah, right.

>     3/4 c  Green Grapes, halved

Just where in mediaeval Europe could you get both kinds of grape at once?

Intriguing recipe but what did the original look like?

-- 
-- Jack Campin -- Room 1.36, Department of Computing & Electrical Engineering,
   Mountbatten Building, Heriot-Watt University, Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
TEL: 031 449 5111 ext 4195         HOME: 031 556 5272        FAX: 031 451 3431
INTERNET: [email-masked]   BITNET: via UKACRL   BANG!net: via mcsun & uknet

---

From: [email-masked] (Jane Beckman)
Date: 7 Jun 94 23:37:56 GMT

>How far back does the simultaneous availability of white and brown sugar go?
"Brown" sugar (not Demerara or turbinado or sugar cones) is a
modern invention created from white sugar with molassas added
back in and processed with chemicals.  An almost-white sugar
goes back to around 1600, but it's more straw-colored.

>Cornstarch in mediaeval Europe?  Yeah, right.
Yes, but it makes as good an approximation of period-correct
arrowroot flour as you can get without spending extra time and
money looking for the accurate thickener.
>Just where in mediaeval Europe could you get both kinds of grape at once?
Well, probably a lot of places, but not the grapes in the
recipe.  Try France and along the Mediterranian.  Fox grapes.
Little sugary wine grapes.  Big red grapes.  Muscat.  Probably no big
green grapes, though---sounds like Thompson Seedless to me.  But 
if you check your Renaissance paintings, you'll find an
assortment of other grapes.

--
  Jilara   [[email-masked]]
That's how freedom will end: not with a bang, but with a rustle of file
folders.  If you love any of your rights, defend all of them!
-Joe Chew, on the net

---

From: [email-masked] (Thomas W Oliver)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 16:52:11 GMT

Someone mentioned 'Pleyn Delit' and needed the ISBN #, which is 0-8020-6366-7.

The authors are Constance B. Hieatt & Sharon Butler, and it is published by
the University of Toronto Press. The copy I have looks to have been reprinted
in 1992, is printed in a 6"x9" softcover format with a slick cover, which is
white with black lettering & has a black/yellow/red picture of a medieval
feast being served.

I just picked this up at a SCA war here in San Diego last week and have not
had a chance to look thru it very well yet, but it came highly recommended.
I payed ~ $17 for it.

Each recipe is given in the original version, noted from which source it
came from, followed by a modern version & measurements. This is sometimes
followed by a variation.

The book is divided up into 'Soppes & Potages', Entremets (hors d'oeuvres &
side dishes), Fyssh, 'Rostes & Bake Metes of Flessh', Stewes, & Desserts. It
also talks about Subtleties, and has a 4 page Bibliography which includes a
short blurb about each source, a Glossary of terms, & an Index.

I apologize if this is not the correct question, the original posting has
expired from my system. I would yell at my news admin about the short expire
period, but I would need a mirror first.  B-)

---

Thomas W Oliver				|"Carpe Denarii - 'seize the dough' 
Unix System Administrator		|				TWO "
Science Applications International Corp.| telephone: 619 458-5175 
4161 Campus Point Court MS E3R		| fax:       619 558-1391
San Diego, CA 92121			| e-mail:    [email-masked]

---

From: Gretchen Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 13:13:04 -0400

I've always found squid to be a good shrimp substitute, so I imagine the
opposite would also work.  (Squid Jambaleya...yum!)

toodles, gretchen

---

From: [email-masked] (DDFr)
Date: 9 Jun 1994 00:43:01 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Carl Berger) gives a number of "medieval
recipes," some at least from something called "meal-master." I have
only made it about half way through, but it is worth noting that the
recipes include, without comment, ingredients not available in the
Middle ages. Cornstarch is made from maize, which is native to the
New World. Red bell peppers are capsicum peppers, native to the New
World. Potatoes are native to the New World. These may, for all I
know, be good recipes, but medieval they are not.

As a good general rule, never trust a secondary source that does not
include the original recipe. Some of these do, allowing the reader to
check for himself how accurate they are. Many do not.

David Friedman

---

From: [email-masked] (Kjrsten Henriksen)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 19:39:42 GMT

Arrowroot and cornstarch are both new world, arrow root is the root of
a tropical plant.

Thickeners i have seen in 15th c. recepies are egg, breadcrumbs and
rice flour.  

I think almond milk is supposed to thicken things, but i don't think
i've ever used it correctly.

Oatmeal may also have been used as a thickener, but i don't remember
any examples---only one stern injunction to leave it out!

I certainly don't recall any thickeners added like cornstarch or
arrowroot--i.e. as a flour or slurry.   I havn't run into cornstarch
or arrowroot even in Mrs. Beaton's book, tho i havn't studied it
extensively.   Any one out there do historical US cooking?--- you'd
think that's where cornstarach  would start. 

regards

kjrsten
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (marian walke)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 07:59:15 GMT

[email-masked] (Jane Beckman) writes:

(snip)
>money looking for the accurate thickener.

Since arrowroot is New World, I doubt it is a period-correct ingredient 
either.  Perhaps you are thinking of amydon (also called amidons, 
amyndoun) which is a wheat starch (basicly wheat with the gluten washed 
out of it, dried, and pounded to a powder).  Wheat starch is available in 
some health food and ethnic stores.

But the originally posted recipe (with Vermouth, etc.) was so far from a 
period recipe it probably doen't matter anyway.

--Old Marian
([email-masked])

---

From: [email-masked] (Mike Houghton)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 12:06:59 GMT

>used widely in Asian cooking here, so a Chinatown market might be a good place
I live near Washington, DC. Local grocery stores seem to carry squid regularly.
Usually, it is frozen whole squid, but sometimes they have fresh in the fish
department.

	Mike

---

From: [email-masked] (C R Pennell)
Date: 11 Jun 1994 23:40:38 GMT

Someone wrote:

: >>   But if you hanker for squid, just go ahead with it if you can find
: >>   some, and be sure to have the fish man prepare it for you by removing
: >>   the black liquid from the backbone.

Why? Unless you also want him to put it on one side so you can make a 
suce from it? It's delicious.

Richard Pennell history national university of SIngapore
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Mary Shafer)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 1994 02:35:08 GMT

On Fri, 10 Jun 1994 07:59:15 GMT, [email-masked] (marian walke) said:

marian> [email-masked] (Jane Beckman) writes:

marian> (snip)
>>> 2 ts Cornstarch > >Cornstarch in mediaeval Europe?  Yeah, right.

marian> Since arrowroot is New World, I doubt it is a period-correct
marian> ingredient either.

Arrowroot is African.  They still serve it in Kenya, for example, and
some of the early explorers moaned about how bland it was, correctly
in my opinion.  Waverly Root says that it's the most easily-digested
starch, except when it's poisonous.  The dish most commonly served was
just boiled slices of the root, with some sort of seasoning, but one
very fancy preparation included sauteed onions, garlic, and curry
seasonings.  The root was still pretty bland, even with all that help.

--
Mary Shafer                                                   DoD #362 KotFR   
SR-71 Chief Engineer         NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
[email-masked]                Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."  Unknown US fighter pilot

---

From: [email-masked] (DDFr)
Date: 13 Jun 1994 01:25:02 -0400

Kjrsten Henriksen raises the question of oatmeal as thickener. Two
examples are Boiled Meats Orinary and Pottage with Whole Herbes, both
from the English Huswife (and in the Miscellany). Of course, that is
pretty late to call medieval; the book was published in 1615, and
even allowing for Markham's somewhat casual attitude to reproducing
other people's work without credit was probably written no later than
the sixteenth century. I cannot think of any earlier example.

David Friedman

---

From: [email-masked] (DDFr)
Date: 13 Jun 1994 01:34:03 -0400

Mary Shafer writes:

"Arrowroot is African.  They still serve it in Kenya, for example,
and
some of the early explorers moaned about how bland it was, correctly
in my opinion. "

According to McGee, who I think is usually reliable, it is West
Indian--which supports Marian's version. The fact that they "still"
serve it in Kenya is irrelevant--the question is when they started
serving it. A number of new world foods, such as peanuts, went into
use in Africa very early, presumably because the Portuguese brought
them across.

David Friedman

---

From: [email-masked] (Irina Rempt)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 12:28:54 +0100

>i've ever used it correctly.

It works like this: dilute finely ground almonds (available, in the
Netherlands at least, in health food shops; they put it in the peanut
butter category) with water or (preferably) white wine, heat it up, 
add some rice flour mixed to a thin sludge with water, and it will 
magically thicken. Stir frantically as it has a way of burning at once.

The exact proportions are a matter of trial and error but I've found 
that half a jar (about 200g) and two tablespoonfuls of rice flour will 
thicken up to a pint of liquid to coating consistency.

You might also want to experiment with breadcrumbs or cake crumbs
instead of the rice flour. It makes lovely medieval bread pudding!
Add spices such as cinnamon, ginger and galangal, sugar to taste, and
perhaps some raisins or chopped dates and/or whole almonds.

	Irina

-- 
----
========
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Irina Rempt-Drijfhout

---

From: [email-masked] (Charlie Sorsby)
Date: 14 Jun 1994 19:38:34 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Mary Shafer) writes:
= On Fri, 10 Jun 1994 07:59:15 GMT, [email-masked] (marian walke) said:
= 
= marian> [email-masked] (Jane Beckman) writes:
= 
= marian> (snip)
= >>> 2 ts Cornstarch > >Cornstarch in mediaeval Europe?  Yeah, right.
= >Yes, but it makes as good an approximation of period-correct
= >arrowroot flour as you can get without spending extra time and
= >money looking for the accurate thickener.

I didn't know arrowroot flour was hard to find.  I must confess
that I don't recall if I found it in a health/natural food store or
a supermarket but I had no problem finding it.

Since I'm posting anyway, the subject line suggests that there was
a series of seven articles of medieval recipes.  Is that a fair
inference?

If so, is this newsgroup archived anywhere?  I can only read it
sporadically and they seem to have expired at this site.  Thanks
for any pointers.

-- 
Best,

---

From: [email-masked] (Sharen Rund)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 19:03:11 GMT

2 items of interest, or comment, in regards to the following:

1) Africa is not that far away from Europe - and, remember, that the 
   Spanish peninsula was overrun by the Morrocans (Northern Africans)
   consequently, lots of Morrocan influence in Europe (remember, Othello
   was a Morrocan...)

2) Marco Polo, and many others, travelled about the "known" worlds 
   of India, China, Africa, etc, bringing back many of the spices, foods,
   etc to the Europeans that find commonplace today

DDFr ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Mary Shafer writes:

: "Arrowroot is African.  They still serve it in Kenya, for example,
: and
: some of the early explorers moaned about how bland it was, correctly
: in my opinion. "

: According to McGee, who I think is usually reliable, it is West
: Indian--which supports Marian's version. The fact that they "still"
: serve it in Kenya is irrelevant--the question is when they started
: serving it. A number of new world foods, such as peanuts, went into
: use in Africa very early, presumably because the Portuguese brought
: them across.

: David Friedman

--
____________    __      ____________  "They that can give up essential
\_____     /   /_ \     \     _____/  liberty to obtain a little
 \_____    \____/  \____/    _____/  temporary safety deserve
  \_____                    _____/  neither liberty nor safety."
     \___________  ___________/          --Benjamin Franklin
               /    \           ALL disclaimers apply ....
               ~~~~~~

---

From: [email-masked] (Edward Jannoo)
Date: 16 Jun 1994 07:50:56 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,

>You might also want to experiment with breadcrumbs or cake crumbs

At the place where I participate in recreation of Tudor life, breadcrumbs
are (I think) almost invariably used for thickening. It's a hell of a lot
cheaper than ground almonds too!

Ed Jannoo
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 16 Jun 1994 12:41:03 -0400

Irina Rempt <[email-masked]> replied:
>It works like this: dilute finely ground almonds ...  heat it up, 
>magically thicken....
>half a jar (about 200g) and two tablespoonfuls of rice flour will 

I suspect two tablespoonfuls of rice flour mixed to a thin sludge
with water would do the same job WITHOUT the almond milk.  Although
the result wouldn't be nearly as tasty or white.

>instead of the rice flour. It makes lovely medieval bread pudding!

Irina damns breadcrumbs with faint praise.  Breadcrumbs are probably the
most common agent for thickening ANYTHING in surviving medieval recipes
(their closest competitor would be eggyolks).  Rice flour and wheat starch
(amydon) are also mentioned, but far less often.  Flour mixed with butter
(roux), by the way, is not mentioned at all, as far as I know.

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Bill Stuart)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 18:28:57 GMT

>(roux), by the way, is not mentioned at all, as far as I know.

	Blood was pretty common as a thickening agent too, if i recall
correctly. 
-- 
Have you heard about the new Mormon sex ed book?
It's called "Heather has 15 mommies"

---

From: [email-masked] (DDFr)
Date: 17 Jun 1994 00:53:05 -0400

I don't think that Irina has really answered the question of how you
thicken things with almond milk. As already pointed out, in her
version it is the rice flour that is doing the thickening. Is Irina
suggesting that when recipes refer to almond milk, they assume that
it includes rice flour? I cannot think of any evidence for that.

She also writes:

"You might also want to experiment with breadcrumbs or cake crumbs
instead of the rice flour.  It makes lovely medieval bread pudding!" 

Are you thinking of any particular medieval recipes?

Also, since we have someone posting from the Netherlands, perhaps she
could tell us what exists in terms of Dutch medieval cookbooks. I
know of one cookbook that is supposed to be the first printed one in
Dutch,  c. 1510. Are there earlier surviving manuscript cookbooks?

David Friedman

---

From: [email-masked] (DDFr)
Date: 17 Jun 1994 00:56:02 -0400

(Sharen Rund) writes:

"2 items of interest, or comment, in regards to the following:

1) Africa is not that far away from Europe - and, remember, that the 
   Spanish peninsula was overrun by the Morrocans (Northern Africans)
   consequently, lots of Morrocan influence in Europe (remember,
Othello
   was a Morrocan...)

2) Marco Polo, and many others, travelled about the "known" worlds 
   of India, China, Africa, etc, bringing back many of the spices,
foods,
   etc to the Europeans that find commonplace today"

I am not sure I understand this. The problem is not getting the
arrowroot from Africa (or China or ...) to Europe, but getting it
from the West Indies, which are in the New World, to Africa. We have
so far seen no evidence that it was in Africa in the Middle Ages, and
the one authority I checked (McGee) says it comes from the West
Indies.

David Friedman

---

From: Gretchen Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 11:37:53 -0400

Excerpts from netnews.rec.food.historic: 17-Jun-94 Re: Recipes: Medieva
1/7 by [email-masked] 
> the one authority I checked (McGee) says it comes from the West

A quick check in the dictionary/encyclopedia confirms McGee and David's
statements on the origins of arrowroot:

Arrowroot - 1. A tropical American plant, Maranta arundinacea, having
roots that yield an edible starch.  2. The starch from the arrowroot and
from certain plants of the genera Manihot, Curcuma, and Tacca.

Arrowroot is an edible starch, the product of the rhizomes, or
rootstocks, of several tropical plants.  West Indian arrowroot, Maranta
arundinacea, family Marantacaea, is a perennail plant that produces
genuine arrowroot starch in large rhizomes.  These are peeled and grated
into water, and the fine-textured starch is extracted.  It is used as a
thickener in cooking' its blandness and digestibility make it
particularly useful for invalid diets.  Tous-les-mo (TULEMA) arrowroot
is made from the Canna edulis; Brazilian arrowroot comes from the manioc
plant, which is also the source of tapioca.

toodles, gretchen

---

From: [email-masked] (John E. Taylor III)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 12:15:33 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Irina

> thicken up to a pint of liquid to coating consistency.

Won't the rice flour, _without_ the almond paste, thicken about a pint of
liquid?  I've never tried using rice flour, but that's about the quantity
you'd use with wheat flour.

--
John Taylor    (W3ZID)     |  "The opinions expressed are those of the
[email-masked] |   writer and not of Rohm and Haas Company."

---

From: [email-masked] (Sharen Rund)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 16:47:41 GMT

Stephen Bloch ([email-masked]) wrote:
: [email-masked] (Kjrsten Henriksen) wrote:
: >>I think almond milk is supposed to thicken things, but i don't think
: >>i've ever used it correctly.

: Irina Rempt <[email-masked]> replied:
: >It works like this: dilute finely ground almonds ...  heat it up, 
: >add some rice flour mixed to a thin sludge with water, and it will 
: >magically thicken....
: >half a jar (about 200g) and two tablespoonfuls of rice flour will 
: >thicken up to a pint of liquid to coating consistency.

: I suspect two tablespoonfuls of rice flour mixed to a thin sludge
: with water would do the same job WITHOUT the almond milk.  Although
: the result wouldn't be nearly as tasty or white.

: >You might also want to experiment with breadcrumbs or cake crumbs
: >instead of the rice flour. It makes lovely medieval bread pudding!

: Irina damns breadcrumbs with faint praise.  Breadcrumbs are probably the
: most common agent for thickening ANYTHING in surviving medieval recipes
: (their closest competitor would be eggyolks).  Rice flour and wheat starch
: (amydon) are also mentioned, but far less often.  Flour mixed with butter
: (roux), by the way, is not mentioned at all, as far as I know.

that's probably because original roux used no butter/fat - the flour was
cooked in the cast iron pot/pan till it turned the right color - stirred
constantly, in slow easy motion so as to not make it splatter & burn one
once the flour was browned the right color, broth was added to it to make
the paste, then the paste was worked back into the broth/soup/stew/ragout

: -- 
: 					Stephen Bloch
: 				     [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Laurel Halbany)
Date: 18 Jun 94 13:07:00 GMT

-=> Quoting [email-masked]. to All <=-

S9> About the squid: you may find it hard to find in the US (I missed it a
S9> lot while I lived there) but it's very easy to find in Australia, where
S9> it's known as calamari, since we got intoduced to it by the Greek
S9> immigrants. It's also used widely in Asian cooking here, so a Chinatown
S9> market might be a good place to look.

It's becoming more popular in the US, too; I was able to find it
when I lived in the Midwest (aka "Land of Bad Seafood"), even.
I've never seen it pre-sliced into rings, but you can often buy
it pre-cleaned as well as whole.

... Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

----
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---

From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 19 Jun 1994 16:14:50 -0400

I wrote:
>: Flour mixed with butter

>the paste, then the paste was worked back into the broth/soup/stew/ragout

Interesting.  How long ago is this technique known to have been used?

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Insanity's Mistress)
Date: 20 Jun 94 09:55:48 EDT

On the use of rice flour and almond milk as thickeners:  I'll admit that this 
is perfectly possible in a medieval recipe, but it would have been food very 
much restricted to the rich, since rice was tremendously expensive, and 
almonds were probably about the same.  (And they still are, at least in this 
country...*sigh*)

--Jane

---

From: [email-masked] (Terry Nutter)
Date: 20 Jun 1994 22:04:12 GMT

Hi, Terry here.  Stephen Block recently posted,

>(roux), by the way, is not mentioned at all, as far as I know.

As to the dominance of breadcrumbs, I think it may depend on where and when
one looks.  I've been collecting data for some time on the relative frequency
of ingredients in English cuisine in the 13th through 15th centuries.  To
forestall remarks about selectivity, I am working from surviving recipes, so
of course, the results are biased to the cuisine from which recipes have
survived.  It remains the best source I can find for frequency in recipes
as opposed to total amounts used, for which the best sources are probably
household accounts (together with agricultural and trade records of various 
kinds).

With those provisos, for the 13th and 14th centuries, as measured by an
Anglo-Norman collection and the recipes in _Curye on Inglysch_, a total of
446 recipes, we get the following thickeners in the following proportions:

	Almonds		144 recipes/32%
	Bread		111 recipes/25%
	rice flour	48 recipes/11%
	amydon		32 recipes/8%

Wheat or wheat flour occur in 1% and 7% respectively, but never as a thickener.

For the 15th C, my figures are very incomplete, and include at this point
only those in _An Ordinanace of Pottage_ reliably.  That includes 203
recipes.  For those, we have:

	Almonds		63 recipes/31%
	Bread		51 recipes/25%
	rice flour	5 recipes/2%

Amydon does not occur.  As you can see, the percentages for bread and almonds
are unchanged, though rice flour has dropped, and amydon has vanished.

I think the reason for the preference for almonds is that they are used
as a sauce base, not just as a thickener.  "Gravy" originally refers to 
sauce whose base is almonds.  The reason for liking rice is that rice flour
is astoundingly well-behaved.  You can just dump it into the stew and stir.
It blends without lumping, and has very little affect on the flavor.  By
contrast, wheat is a nightmare.  On the other hand, rice was relatively
expensive.

You don't see wheat used, and frankly, I believe the reason is gluten and its
unfriendly behavior.  The support for this is that when wheat is more common
in recipes overall, they went to the trouble of making amydon -- a gluten-
free wheat flour -- to use instead.  It is interesting to note that amydon 
very often (perhaps, but I am not sure, most often) appears in recipes as 
"rice flour or amydon".  Temperature control was far more dicey in a medieval
kitchen than it is in a modern one; and medieval kitchens tended to cook for
far greater numbers, in far greater quantities.  Both of these points militate
away from the use of uncooked wheat as a thickener.

Bread crumbs are an obvious alternative, because the gluten, being cooked,
does not act up.  They are clearly cheaper than almonds or rice, and appear
always to have been preferred in English cuisine to rice -- but almonds seem
to have been used almost half again as often.

I have found that the recipes work well as written.  There are some rules,
which I am still working out, governing which thickeners were used when, and
I think they have good sense behind them.

Anyhow, there are a few numbers.

Cheers,

---

From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 21 Jun 1994 15:49:43 -0400

>almonds were probably about the same.  (And they still are, at least in this 

Rice was grown from the 8th century in Moslem Spain, and I believe it
reached southern France quickly.  So in these areas it may not have been
expensive.  Almonds are also known to have been grown in Moslem Spain.

I'm not sure almonds were RELATIVELY expensive in Medieval Europe; I think
they just haven't come down in price as much as fruit, spices, and grains
have in the past 600 years.  They certainly figure heavily in all the
surviving medieval cookbooks I know of.  I think saffron is in the same
situation: it's ridiculously expensive now, but in the Middle Ages it was
grown in Essex, England (there's still a town there named Saffron Wells)
and from its frequency of occurrence in medieval cookbooks it can't have
been as expensive, in proportion to the cost of other foods, as it is
today.

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Bayla Singer)
Date: 23 Jun 1994 01:28:00 GMT

Squid is often found in the frozen food section of American supermarkets,
particularly where there is a substantial Italian population.   Look for
calamari. (And some variant spellings :-)

--bayla

---

From: Robert And Cynthia Chiovoloni <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 94 22:30:30 -0500

Actually, speaking as a chef, the ink is highly prized in many mediteranian
kitchens
cf. calimari en su tinto. I=n fact, it is quite expseparately.  I advise you to
enjoy it. At the very least it makes a neat addition to
fresh pasta.

---

From: [email-masked] (Charlie Sorsby)
Date: 24 Jun 1994 18:20:15 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch) writes:
= 
= I think saffron is in the same
= situation: it's ridiculously expensive now, but in the Middle Ages it was
= grown in Essex, England (there's still a town there named Saffron Wells)
= and from its frequency of occurrence in medieval cookbooks it can't have
= been as expensive, in proportion to the cost of other foods, as it is
= today.

Questions:  This suggests that saffron is not a product of some
"exotic tropical isle" or such but, rather, of relatively temperate
climes.  Judging by its price at the supremarket--and the fact that
they have to put it in a little packet inside the jar to keep it
from getting lost (or so people won't think the jar is empty :) 
--I had always assumed that it came from some truly exotic place.
Can someone in the know, elaborate a bit about this particular
substance.  What the plant is like?  Where it can be grown (and, as
importantly, where not)?  What part of the plant is used and how it
is prepared?  Where one could get seeds and how one would proceed
to grow some?  Etc, etc, etc, ...

= -- 
= 					Stephen Bloch
= 				     [email-masked]

-- 
Best,

---

From: [email-masked] (Terry Nutter)
Date: 25 Jun 1994 06:34:43 GMT

Hi, Terry here.  Charlie Sorsby asks what saffron is.

It's the stamens of a specific variety of crocus.  I do not know where
it originated; the best saffron today comes from Spain.

The reason it's sold in such silly-looking quantities is that it is
unholy strong.  I normally buy it at health food stores, or from people
who sell spices in bulk; but even so, I tend to buy it by the gram.
(A gram, for those who don't think metric, is about the weight of a
paper clip.  There are almost a thousand of them to the pound.  There
are about 57 of them in an ounce.)

The standard "unit" of saffron is the thread: that's one crocus stamen.
Goes a heck of a long way.

On the other hand, one crocus = 2 threads, which will make you one dish
of something.  It's not the growing that's the problem so much as the
harvesting and the low yield.

Someone else will surely know the genus and species, and where to get
(not seeds but) bulbs.

Cheers,

---

From: [email-masked] (Irina Rempt)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 20:01:50 +0100

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch) writes:

>>cooked in the cast iron pot/pan till it turned the right color - 
[etcetera]

>Interesting.  How long ago is this technique known to have been used?

Days ago, as far as I know. I do it all the time when I want a sauce
without fat for some reason. I learned from my mother and she can trace
it back to the nineteenth century - her grandmother, that is.

It's very effective and most people don't even notice there's something
"wrong".

	Irina

---

From: [email-masked] (Irina Rempt)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 22:33:16 +0100

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] 

>>Irina damns breadcrumbs with faint praise.  

Did I? I can't remember what I wrote and it seems to have disappeared
from my computer as well - wouldn't you know, I'm offline for a few 
days and everyone starts talking about me behind my back ;-)

Anyway I'm not _against_ breadcrumbs, I was just trying to answer 
Kjrsten's question about almond milk (technically, not historically).

[detailed account of use of ingredients in English recipes deleted]

>sauce whose base is almonds.  

Perhaps because they make the sauce "heavy" (grave)?

>The reason for liking rice is that rice flour

Yes on all counts. 

[more about wheat, breadcrumbs and other thickeners]

>I think they have good sense behind them.

Tell me, please!

Let me make clear that I may be a bit of a heretic on this group: 
I don't aim for an exact _reconstruction_, but use historical recipes
the same way I do contemporary ones (twentieth-century), i.e. for
method and inspiration. I'm rather an empiric cook - use what is handy 
while trying to avoid too-gross anachronisms.

Questions - food for thought or potential flamebait:

- doesn't the fact that a recipe has been preserved imply that it was
meant for the wealthy? ("if you can afford a cook book, you can afford
rice and almonds")

- how far can or should we go in trying to achieve authenticity? Do 
we cook over an open fire, or is it OK to use the electric cooker?

- isn't it more "authentic" to adapt the recipe to the circumstances?
Trying to achieve a faithful reconstruction _could_ result in something 
lifeless and academic, as in some early music (for comparison: I don't 
object to Dufay on a saxophone; I even play Dufay on a synthesizer but 
I do use Pythagorean tuning because, well, it sounds better).

Perhaps someone who would like to take this up can think of a better
title...

	Irina

---

From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 25 Jun 1994 19:12:36 -0400

>are about 57 of them in an ounce.)

Now, I know Terry's an intelligent, educated person, and knows better :-)
There are about 454 grams to the pound, and about 28 of them in an ounce.
Perhaps a gram is about the weight of TWO paper clips?  in which case the
rest of the sentence looks right, with "them" = "paper clips".

The original point, though, was that saffron is extremely potent: I usually
buy 5 grams at a time, and that lasts me for years (without serving dinner
to 400 of my friends).  Comparing this with Terry's earlier calculations, I
suspect I use heavier doses of it than she does.

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 25 Jun 1994 19:35:48 -0400

>meant for the wealthy? ("if you can afford a cook book, you can afford

The fact that a recipe has been preserved in a royal or noble cookbook (the
majority, but by no means all, of the surviving medieval sources) means you
can use it as evidence that the ingredients were available, but you can't
use it as evidence that the ingredients were cheap.  NOR can you use it as
evidence that the ingredients were expensive.

>we cook over an open fire, or is it OK to use the electric cooker?

If I'm reconstructing a medieval recipe, I'd like to make it at least once
over a fire, on grounds that if it can't be done that way, I've obviously
misinterpreted the recipe.  After I'm comfortable with the redaction, I
have no qualms about making it for guests using a modern kitchen.  And
likewise with many other obviously inauthentic techniques.

That is, I see authenticity not as an end in itself but as a means to
learning.  The discipline of biology is not directed at using microscopes,
and good biology can be done without a microscope, but a microscope is an
awfully useful tool when you need it.

>lifeless and academic, like some early music...

Yes, it could and often does.  Trying to achieve a not-so-authentic
adaptation can also result in something lifeless.  So?

Sure, medieval cooks probably improvised a great deal, just as medieval
musicians probably did.  But if Gothic Voices threw jazz and rock licks
into a Machaut piece, it wouldn't remotely resemble anything Machaut's
musicians might have done.  (It might be fun, but that's another issue.)
It's the WRONG STYLE of improvisation.  By the same token, someone who
improvises on medieval recipes without having spent a helluvalotta time
studying the recipes, tools, and techniques of that time and place will
not produce an improvised medieval dish, but rather an improvised modern
dish vaguely similar to a medieval dish.

>Perhaps someone who would like to take this up can think of a better

Done. :-)

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Sandra P. Hoffman)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 00:18:05 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>I do use Pythagorean tuning because, well, it sounds better).

Both have their place. For our own family use we take great liberties
with medieval recipes. If I were advertising myself to friends or
others as producing a medieval meal or part thereof, I would be
as true to the original recipes as possible, including using
specific techniques. Different approaches for different circumstances.

One of the things I like about this group is the way people try
to figure out ways to get as close to the original recipes and techniques
as possible. I think that takes the recipes out of the academic
and gives them new life. 

sph

-- 
"Return, good Catesby, to the gracious duke:" Shakespeare, Richard III,
                           III, vii, 65
                    [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Bonnie Kooser)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 03:59:04 GMT

<[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever

in answer to the question on saffron, the item is from the saffron
crocus which is the crocus sativus, available from the Park Seed
Company, among others.  The address is Cokesbury Road, Greenwood, South
Carolina, 29647-0001.  The order number is 1-800-845-3369, Monday thru
Friday 8am to 6pm eastern time.  They have a limited supply but they
sell some every year in their catalogue.  I am growing some in my garden
now in Seattle.  They are fall blooming. They are 15 bulbs for $9.99.
Please excuse any errors in my posting as this is the first time I have
ever posted to a newsgroup.  By the way, the saffron is actually the
pollen on the threads.  Thank you for your patience, Bonnie Kooser.

---

From: [email-masked] (BASEL, LESLIE)
Date: 26 Jun 1994 15:45 MST

I have only a couple of pieces of information to add to this
thread on saffron--Crocus sativa.  Apparently saffron was
first found and used in central Turkey.  They are hardy bet-
ween USDA growing zones 5 and 8 (you can get that from the
garden catalog).  Get nice plump bulbs, I planted in late
summer.  The first year you probably will just get vegetative
growth, as the bulb is getting settled, and developing a
larger bulb.  The second year, you will get some very nice
crocus flowers, 1-2 inch big, petal streaked with white
and purple, and with brillant, long (1.5 to 2 in), red
stamens (6, if I remember right). Pluck them when the
flower show is at its height (with tweezers, and you'll
see why the spice is so expensive--its tedious).  Dry them
on a little sheet of wax paper, so you can get them off.

They are beautiful, showy little plants, well worth growing
even if you didn't know about saffron.

Important: DO NOT confuse them with Autumn crocus, _Colchicum sp_.
This plant is toxic, but useful as a source of Colchicine.
Harvesting/using the stamens will give you adverse results.
These bulbs, leaves, and flowers are much bigger than regular
crocus plants, flowers are usually white/pink.

Have fun.

Leslie

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 26 Jun 94 19:30:36 -0500

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Bonnie Kooser) writes:
> Company, among others.  ...
...They are fall blooming. 

    Yes, the plants are fairly easy to come by from the big bulb
    distributors... you might want to check the bulb catalog FAQ
    prepared for rec.gardens that is at sunsite.unc.edu (under the
    \sustainable agriculture\rec gardens hierarchy).  It's really
    a pretty plant, and you can sure raise a few eyebrows by hauling
    people out to look at your crocus flowers in August or September!

    BTW, don't think any autumn flowering crocus is Crocus sativus...
    there are several other species that flower in the fall, and a
    closely related genus, Colchicum, which is pretty toxic.

    There was a nice article on saffron harvesting a few years ago
    in _Smithsonian_ magazine, but I haven't got the reference available.

...By the way, the saffron is actually the
> pollen on the threads.  

    Close, but wrong gender... ;-)  Saffron is the *stigmas* of
    the flowers, the receptive female part of the plant the pollen
    (male) lands on..  There are three stigmas per flower.

---

From: [email-masked] (Cameron Laird)
Date: 27 Jun 1994 08:31:49 -0500

In article <[email-masked]>,
Sandra P. Hoffman <[email-masked]> wrote:
			.
			.
			.
>as possible. I think that takes the recipes out of the academic
			.
			.
			.
... and one of the things *I* like about this group
is the intelligence of its posts.  Medievalism in
the kitchen is not a pasttime of mine, but Terry,
Stephen, Kay, David, et al. sure do reward eaves-
dropping on those for whom it is.
-- 

Cameron Laird
[email-masked] ([email-masked])	+1 713 267 7966
[email-masked] ([email-masked])  	+1 713 996 8546

---

From: [email-masked] (Charlie Sorsby)
Date: 27 Jun 1994 19:43:47 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:
= 
= Let me make clear that I may be a bit of a heretic on this group: 
= I don't aim for an exact _reconstruction_, but use historical recipes
= the same way I do contemporary ones (twentieth-century), i.e. for
= method and inspiration. I'm rather an empiric cook - use what is handy 
= while trying to avoid too-gross anachronisms.
[...]
= - isn't it more "authentic" to adapt the recipe to the circumstances?

If I understand Irina correctly here, I agree.  It seems to me that
whether one speaks of regional current cooking or cooking in the
past, improvisation around some basic plan would be very authentic.
(Perhaps subject to certain constraints such as what is/was available
there/then.)  I find it hard to imagine that local (in space or
in time) cooks slavishly followed their recipes (if they had some
--the comment about who could afford cookbooks is well taken).

A more realistic scenario, in my opinion, is that they did (or do)
use the recipe as a starting point, improvising with what is available
at the moment.

Which is more important, the spirit or the letter of the "law" in
this situation?

The "certain constraints" that I mentioned earlier would include
using ingredients or methods that could not have existed in that
time or place but one may be able to make a case even for some of
these, depending upon circumstances and the kind of authenticity
one wants to achieve.  

Irina mentions using an electric cooker as a substitute for an open
fire.  I suspect that there are any number of "lines" that one may
draw on one side of which it is "authentic" and on the other of which
it is no longer authentic.  Would, for example, the use of a pressure
cooker be taking things too far?  Would the use of the electric cooker
be authentic but the pressure cooker not?

What about preparation methods?  Does the use, for example, of an
electric mixer make a recipe inauthentic?  Should we, perhaps, use
only a wooden beater or maybe a whisk (I sometimes do) or can it
still be authentic if we take the easy way out?

Are there standard (or even widely held) views of what is and what
is not authentic?

= Trying to achieve a faithful reconstruction _could_ result in something 
= lifeless and academic, as in some early music (for comparison: I don't 
= object to Dufay on a saxophone; I even play Dufay on a synthesizer but 
= I do use Pythagorean tuning because, well, it sounds better).

Sorry to ramble...

-- 
Best,

---

From: [email-masked] (Stephan Zielinski)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 18:36:19 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Terry Nutter) writes:
>Someone else will surely know the genus and species...

Crocus sativus.  :-)

-- 
Stephan Zielinski                         [email-masked]
  Pyramid OSx & DC/OSx. Sequent DYNIX/ptx. IBM AIX. HP/UX. SGI IRIX.
			   My brain hurts.

---

From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 28 Jun 1994 21:32:41 -0400

>past, improvisation around some basic plan would be very authentic.

Quite true.  The question then remains, does YOUR improvisation at all
resemble the improvisation of somebody raised and trained as a cook in
that culture?

>Would, for example, the use of a pressure
>cooker be taking things too far?

Not necessarily.  For example, there are 15th-C. English recipes that
explicitly describe something that sorta resembles a pressure cooker: put
the ingredients into a pot with a tightly-fitting lid, seal the lid to the
pot with a dough of flour and water, stick it in the oven until done, then
break off and discard the now-hardened dough.  I've made this dish several
times (with great success), and have never felt the NEED to use a modern
pressure cooker in place of the original technique, but I wouldn't object
to it on authenticity grounds.

>only a wooden beater or maybe a whisk...

There are many modern cooks who swear that a mayonnaise, hollandaise,
bearnaise, or aglio olio made with electric equipment cannot be as smooth
as one made with a hand whisk, on grounds that the blades spin too fast
and in too constrained an orbit.  I don't know.  In general I and most of
the modern-medieval cooks I know have no qualms about electric mixers and
food processors, although we keep a whisk and a mortar and pestle ready to
hand just in case.

>Are there standard (or even widely held) views of what is and what

Of course not.  That's why this subject reliably produces at least a
month's discussion every time it comes up (say, every three months)
on rec.food.historic, rec.music.early, or rec.org.sca. :-)

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Sandra P. Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 21:06:56 GMT

>From experience, I prefer whisk whipped cream to that done with a mixer.
It takes a lot of time and energy to do this though. I've never had
the stamina to do mayonaise with a whisk, but it's on my list of things
to try in the future.

sph

---

From: [email-masked] (Reginald M Lee)
Date: 3 Jul 1994 14:46:17 -0700

>and in too constrained an orbit.
>>> From experience, I prefer whisk whipped cream to that done with a
>>> mixer. It takes a lot of time and energy to do this though.
 
You can see the possibility by using a Braun hand mixer - the ones with a 
small rotating blade. They added a rotating "cage" just for whipping 
cream etc. but the result is much the same - you can whip cream in a 
fraction of the time, but it ends up very dense and heavy. If you use a 
larger bowl, move the mixer around more, and set it to a slower speed, 
you get something more like normal whipped cream. But it takes as long as 
using a regular hand blender.