Subject: Turnsole

From: [email-masked] (N.M. Wierda)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 15:24:57 GMT

I'm using a medieval recipe for colouring food in my dissertation (first 
degree). One of the readers wondered what turnsole is and indeed, I think I 
should put it in a footnote. The line in the recipe goes as follows:
	if you want purple, add turnsole (from The Forme of Cury)

Can anyone help me out?

Thanks very much,
	Nynke Wierda

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From: [email-masked] (Jack Campin)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 13:19:23 GMT

[email-masked] (N.M. Wierda) wrote:
> degree).  One of the readers wondered what turnsole is and indeed, I think
> I should put it in a footnote. The line in the recipe goes as follows:

French "tournesol", sunflower?

No idea which part or what process gets a purple colour from it, though.

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From: Gretchen Miller <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 11:32:22 -0400

According to the dictionary:

Turnsole - Any of various plants, as the heliotrope, that move or are
believed to move in response to the sun.
Etomology  ME turnsole, purple dye obtained from the plant (OFr
Tournsol) (OItal, tornsole, heliotrope : tornare, to turn (Lat. tornare)
+ sole, sun (Lat. sole)

Hope this helps!

toodles, gretchen

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From: [email-masked] (Harumi Anne Kuno )
Date: 17 Jun 1994 17:52:27 GMT

>Tournsol) (OItal, tornsole, heliotrope : tornare, to turn (Lat. tornare)

webster concurs with grm+'s definition, and also includes a 2nd definition
of turnsole as an herb:

turn.sole \'t*rn-.so-l\ n [ME turnesole, fr. MF tournesol, fr. OIt 
   tornasole, fr. to]rnare to turn (fr. ML) + sole sun, fr. L sol - more at 
   SOLAR 1: any of several plants whose flowers or stems are supposed to turn 
   with the sun : as 1a: HELIOTROPE 1b: SUNFLOWER 2: a European herb 
   (Chrozophora tinctoria) of the spurge family with juice that is turned blue 
   by ammonia; also : a purple dye obtained from it

	-- Harumi

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From: [email-masked] (Kjrsten Henriksen)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 22:06:02 GMT

I've seen two theories

one, that it is turn-sol aka heliotrope, a european flower that follows
the sun and is, indeed, purple

two, (t. scully's opinion expounded in his translation of chiquart)
that it is turn-saut aka turnsol-in-rags a litmus like preparation
derived from lichens that turns pink in one environment and blue in
another.  

unfortunatly my computer is nowhere near my cookbooks so i don't have
the details...

regards

kjrsten
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 21 Jun 94 12:07:12 -0500

> 	if you want purple, add turnsole (from The Forme of Cury)

What is the date of the recipe?  Sunflowers were often given a
name like tournesol or girasol or helianthus, and they yield a purple
pigment from the "shells" of the fruits.  But sunflowers are a North
American plant, and though they were one of the first plants taken back,
I wouldn't have expected to see them in recipes before about the mid
16th century.

Kay Klier  Biology Dept  UNI

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From: [email-masked] (Terry Nutter)
Date: 21 Jun 1994 20:14:52 GMT

Hi, Terry here.

>I wouldn't have expected to see them in recipes before about the mid

Turnsole certainly occurs in pre-16th C recipes (The best date on FoC, BTW,
is about 1395), and pretty clearly refers to a flower, at least some of the 
time.  It's called heliotrope, but is apparently not the NA sunflower;
of what scientific genus I know not.  (There have been flowers called
heliotrope in English since C AD 1000; see the OED.)  There are European
flowers now (i.e. flowers now grown in Europe) called heliotrope of the
appropriate color, which at least some fairly scholarly herbals identify
with turnsole.  I have a little of the stuff at home.

However, I have read -- and do not currently recall where, except that
it was a source I respected -- that one didn't simply toss in the leaves and 
go.  Instead, the process was essentially to extract a dye from the flower, 
and then dip (dye) clean linen strips or other fabric in it, and let it dry.  
When you wanted the color, you put some of the fabric into the stuff you were 
making, letting it "bleed" color into the food, and then removed the fabric.

Perhaps someone else knows more.

Cheers,

Terry Nutter     Blacksburg, VA     [email-masked]     (703)552-1598

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From: [email-masked] (Jane Beckman)
Date: 24 Jun 94 00:25:56 GMT

I have heard Calendulas (The "marigold" of "Marigolds observe
the sun/More than my subjects me have done.") called turnsole,
as well.  As to whether they will produce a purple dye, and
from what part, I have no idea.
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